WEBVTT - Brian Eno: The Innovator 0:00:15.436 --> 0:00:31.036 Pushkin. Not many musicians cite design or architecture as their inspiration, 0:00:32.156 --> 0:00:35.316 but sitting in a beautifully designed German airport in nineteen 0:00:35.396 --> 0:00:39.516 seventy eight, Brian Eno was inspired to create atmospheric music 0:00:39.676 --> 0:00:44.556 to complement the space. His landmark album Music for Airports followed, 0:00:45.116 --> 0:00:49.676 and with it Eno created ambient music, an entirely new 0:00:49.756 --> 0:00:55.676 genre that still thrives today. Brian ENO's fifty year career 0:00:56.036 --> 0:00:59.476 is teaming with innovation. He started out playing since in 0:00:59.516 --> 0:01:02.076 the early seventies as a member of the UK glam 0:01:02.196 --> 0:01:05.796 rock band Roxy Music, went on to record a series 0:01:05.836 --> 0:01:09.916 of solo albums and eventually produced career defining albums for 0:01:09.996 --> 0:01:14.076 a host of bands, including YouTube Devo and Cold Playing. 0:01:15.116 --> 0:01:18.916 His latest project is a radio station through Sono's Radio HD. 0:01:19.596 --> 0:01:23.076 He'll be streaming three hundred unreleased songs from his decades 0:01:23.076 --> 0:01:27.276 in music, including some that he's still making today. The 0:01:27.356 --> 0:01:31.916 station is called the Lighthouse, and on today's episode, Rick 0:01:31.956 --> 0:01:34.756 Rubin talks to Brian Eno a bit about that station 0:01:35.516 --> 0:01:38.036 and also about his love for the musical space that 0:01:38.116 --> 0:01:43.396 exists between humans and machines. Eno also recalls predicting the 0:01:43.396 --> 0:01:45.076 birth of hip hop and the back of a Cab 0:01:45.156 --> 0:01:48.956 with David Byrne and explains why listening to Beyonce playing 0:01:48.956 --> 0:01:57.716 through a wall is strangely satisfying. This is broken record 0:01:57.916 --> 0:02:05.996 liner notes for the Digital Age. I'm justin Richmond. Here's 0:02:06.076 --> 0:02:09.876 Rick Rubin with Brian Eno. I'm gonna starting a funny 0:02:09.876 --> 0:02:12.236 place because just now, before we started, I was thinking 0:02:12.276 --> 0:02:14.556 about a lot of things, and the last thought that 0:02:14.596 --> 0:02:17.836 came up before I made notes this morning was to 0:02:17.876 --> 0:02:21.516 ask what was the last bit of technology to come 0:02:21.556 --> 0:02:26.356 along that has influenced the way you work? There have 0:02:26.476 --> 0:02:29.556 been a few. I've been working quite a lot with 0:02:30.316 --> 0:02:34.916 my friend Peter Chilvers, who's an musician and a coda 0:02:34.996 --> 0:02:40.916 and we've been working on ways of manipulating MIDI automatically 0:02:41.796 --> 0:02:45.716 and effectively. What we're doing is taking a MIDI signal 0:02:46.156 --> 0:02:52.396 and subjecting it to various probabilistic mutations. So, for instance, 0:02:52.716 --> 0:02:55.916 you have a stream of information going into the MIDI 0:02:55.956 --> 0:02:59.516 and you say leave out thirteen percent of that. So 0:02:59.556 --> 0:03:01.996 if you have a drum part, it sounds like the 0:03:02.076 --> 0:03:05.676 drummer's dropping a beat every so often, or we can 0:03:05.716 --> 0:03:11.396 say things like every one in twenty beats, double it 0:03:11.996 --> 0:03:15.956 or move it by a quarter beat. So we can 0:03:16.116 --> 0:03:20.516 take parts that are fairly fixed, or which are loops 0:03:20.556 --> 0:03:23.396 in fact, and we can suddenly bring them to life 0:03:23.396 --> 0:03:28.196 in some very very interesting and uncanny ways. It doesn't 0:03:28.236 --> 0:03:31.756 really sound like what humans would do, but it doesn't 0:03:31.756 --> 0:03:34.916 sound like what machines do either, so it's an interesting 0:03:35.276 --> 0:03:39.716 new zone. I think I've always liked those zones between 0:03:39.716 --> 0:03:42.436 the human and the mechanical. This is why I love 0:03:43.316 --> 0:03:45.836 all the voice treatments that are going on now so much, 0:03:45.916 --> 0:03:49.316 because that's always what I wanted to hear. One The 0:03:49.396 --> 0:03:52.116 one thing that used to be sacred you could never touch, 0:03:52.276 --> 0:03:55.556 was the voice, and I always thought, why not. You know, 0:03:55.596 --> 0:03:58.876 it's just another piece of electronic material, like anything else. 0:03:58.916 --> 0:04:00.956 We can do what we like with it. Do you 0:04:00.996 --> 0:04:02.836 ever feel like going the other way? Do you ever 0:04:03.836 --> 0:04:09.676 start with something that synthetical programmed and decide to create 0:04:09.756 --> 0:04:13.476 it with traditional instruments? Have you ever done that? I've 0:04:13.516 --> 0:04:18.756 done that, and it hasn't always been very successful. In fact, 0:04:18.796 --> 0:04:22.956 it's actually rather rarely being successful for me, and I 0:04:22.996 --> 0:04:26.596 think it's because what I enjoy about the use of 0:04:26.636 --> 0:04:30.596 the electronics and the computers is that they do things 0:04:30.636 --> 0:04:34.716 that humans can't do, and I really like that area 0:04:34.836 --> 0:04:37.996 just between what we can do and what machines can do. 0:04:38.516 --> 0:04:42.596 There's this sort of new area that is appearing. I mean, 0:04:42.636 --> 0:04:45.316 people are noticing it more and more, particularly with vocals. 0:04:46.076 --> 0:04:48.836 Suddenly there are these ways of singing that you've never 0:04:48.836 --> 0:04:52.116 heard before. And what's very interesting, of course, is that 0:04:52.436 --> 0:04:55.156 a new generation of people are learning to sing like that. 0:04:56.316 --> 0:04:57.996 I don't know if you've ever seen any of those 0:04:58.036 --> 0:05:02.876 wonderful things on YouTube where young people have clearly heard 0:05:03.236 --> 0:05:05.956 a Rihannah record or something like that and thought, oh, 0:05:06.036 --> 0:05:08.916 that's great, I'm going to sing like that, and they 0:05:09.116 --> 0:05:12.756 don't actually realize that it's done with an auto tune. Yes, 0:05:13.276 --> 0:05:15.876 that it was not possible to sing like that until 0:05:16.036 --> 0:05:20.036 somebody did it with a machine, and then somebody else thought, well, 0:05:20.036 --> 0:05:23.316 it's possible, so I'll do it. In the case of 0:05:23.356 --> 0:05:27.436 the first example, where you're removing bits of media information, 0:05:28.236 --> 0:05:32.436 would you say that the random aspect of the process 0:05:32.676 --> 0:05:36.356 is always at work for you? I like things when 0:05:36.476 --> 0:05:39.316 there's a layer of surprise, I suppose, and it's not 0:05:39.396 --> 0:05:43.236 because I have this John Cage and faith in randomness. 0:05:43.716 --> 0:05:46.756 For him, it was a sort of religious feeling that 0:05:47.156 --> 0:05:51.276 randomness tied you into the synchronicity of the world. Somehow, 0:05:52.236 --> 0:05:56.276 by using randomness, you allowed the state of things to 0:05:56.316 --> 0:05:59.036 affect your work. It's a nice idea, and I like 0:05:59.156 --> 0:06:01.716 it and I respect it in his work. For me, 0:06:01.916 --> 0:06:06.316 it's a way of searching a musical space that I 0:06:06.356 --> 0:06:10.716 wouldn't do using just my taste. I mean, one's taste 0:06:10.796 --> 0:06:13.996 tends to propel you into the same areas over and 0:06:14.036 --> 0:06:17.836 over again. The interesting thing about randomness is that sometimes 0:06:18.556 --> 0:06:22.236 you're taken somewhere that you didn't expect to go, and 0:06:22.436 --> 0:06:26.436 sometimes that turns out to be a really interesting new place. 0:06:27.356 --> 0:06:31.396 So randomness for me is really just a tool, just 0:06:31.436 --> 0:06:34.436 a way of taking me somewhere different. So it's not 0:06:34.596 --> 0:06:37.996 random for the sake of random. But through the random process, 0:06:38.116 --> 0:06:41.196 you find something new that you're looking for that you 0:06:41.476 --> 0:06:44.756 didn't know you were looking for. Essentially, that's exactly right. Yes, 0:06:45.396 --> 0:06:48.716 something happens and you kind of recognize that, you think, yes, 0:06:49.316 --> 0:06:52.636 that makes sense. The reason I think this is interesting 0:06:52.756 --> 0:06:56.596 is because I think what makes any work of art 0:06:56.836 --> 0:07:02.036 interesting is or gripping or effective, is the feeling that 0:07:02.196 --> 0:07:07.476 somebody was living, somebody was living it, somebody was alert 0:07:07.676 --> 0:07:12.676 and alive and passionate in some way, and the way 0:07:12.716 --> 0:07:15.876 you get into that state is by being an unfamiliar territory. 0:07:15.916 --> 0:07:20.356 I think you're you're most alive when you're not quite 0:07:20.396 --> 0:07:24.396 sure what is going on, when you're you're slightly flying 0:07:24.436 --> 0:07:27.436 by the seat of your pants and you have to 0:07:27.476 --> 0:07:32.476 negotiate it somehow. That's that's why we love improvisation so much, 0:07:32.556 --> 0:07:36.716 because people are deliberately putting themselves at risk in a way, 0:07:37.276 --> 0:07:41.636 soaring out into the unknown, and somehow dealing with it. 0:07:41.876 --> 0:07:45.756 And that process of hearing someone dealing with it is 0:07:45.756 --> 0:07:48.436 the difference between life and death in a piece of work. 0:07:48.476 --> 0:07:54.356 I think. So I suppose all all of the strategies 0:07:54.356 --> 0:07:57.676 and techniques that I use, and they are quite a 0:07:57.676 --> 0:08:03.036 lot of them. Besides randomness, are really ways of trying 0:08:03.076 --> 0:08:06.436 to find myself in a new place, because I get 0:08:06.436 --> 0:08:09.076 excited when I'm in a new place. I like being 0:08:09.236 --> 0:08:12.996 in unfamiliar surroundings. I always used to say that artists 0:08:13.076 --> 0:08:18.076 are either cowboys or farmers, really, and they're both both 0:08:18.116 --> 0:08:20.396 ways of being an artist to find you know, the 0:08:20.436 --> 0:08:24.796 farmer wants to find a piece of territory and fully 0:08:24.796 --> 0:08:27.876 explore it and exploit it. You know. You could say 0:08:28.676 --> 0:08:30.916 the last twenty years of Mandrea and was like that. 0:08:30.956 --> 0:08:35.476 When Mondrea finally settled on the style that we all 0:08:35.556 --> 0:08:39.556 know him for, he just carried on doing it. But 0:08:40.236 --> 0:08:42.796 the other kind of artist is the one who just 0:08:42.916 --> 0:08:47.156 wants to find somewhere new. He just wants to find 0:08:47.156 --> 0:08:50.596 the next frontier, the next piece of territory, and that's 0:08:50.636 --> 0:08:54.836 what he gets turned on by. So I think I'm 0:08:54.916 --> 0:08:58.556 more in the second category, though, people listening to my 0:08:58.676 --> 0:09:01.556 work would say, but it all sounds exactly the same, Brian. 0:09:06.356 --> 0:09:09.556 Do you have that same approach in life beyond? Are 0:09:09.636 --> 0:09:12.436 you an explorer? Have you lived all over the world? 0:09:12.516 --> 0:09:16.956 Do you continue to put yourself in new situations as 0:09:16.956 --> 0:09:19.716 a human being as opposed to an artist. I have 0:09:19.956 --> 0:09:23.396 such an amazing amount of inertia, you wouldn't believe it. 0:09:23.876 --> 0:09:28.316 I wouldn't leave my studio if I had the choice. Probably, No, 0:09:28.436 --> 0:09:31.196 it's not that bad. But the only reason I ever 0:09:31.236 --> 0:09:33.596 go anywhere really is because I don't have a choice. 0:09:34.076 --> 0:09:37.116 For instance, I had to go to New York in 0:09:37.276 --> 0:09:42.356 nineteen seventy eight do something for a week, and it 0:09:42.436 --> 0:09:45.196 was a nice, lovely weather. When I arrived, it was 0:09:45.676 --> 0:09:49.716 this time of year. Somebody said, well, I've got a 0:09:49.756 --> 0:09:52.596 sublet if you want to stay, And I ended up 0:09:52.636 --> 0:09:56.156 spending five years there just because it was a nice 0:09:56.236 --> 0:09:59.876 day when I arrived. Yes, I didn't have any intention 0:09:59.916 --> 0:10:02.076 of living in New York. And then I left New 0:10:02.156 --> 0:10:06.116 York because I had to go to Tokyo to do something. 0:10:06.156 --> 0:10:09.276 And I was away in Tokyo and somebody robbed my 0:10:09.356 --> 0:10:15.676 studio and took everything. Actually everything was gone, and somebody 0:10:15.756 --> 0:10:18.316 rang me up and said, your whole studio has disappeared. 0:10:18.356 --> 0:10:23.156 And I suddenly had this feeling of relief. I thought, oh, 0:10:23.196 --> 0:10:24.916 I don't have to go back to New York then, 0:10:25.916 --> 0:10:29.116 So then I moved to Toronto after that for a 0:10:29.116 --> 0:10:32.796 little while. But I don't really move very much unless 0:10:32.836 --> 0:10:35.756 I have to for some reason, or unless I don't 0:10:35.796 --> 0:10:39.676 plan things very well. I'm pretty happy wherever I am. Actually, 0:10:39.996 --> 0:10:43.356 I think we have that income and it's funny. I'm 0:10:43.396 --> 0:10:50.476 wondering if the urge to adventure creatively is the balance 0:10:51.636 --> 0:10:53.716 for the fact that we lived such her metical lives. 0:10:54.476 --> 0:10:57.636 I think that's a very good theory. Yes, I know 0:10:57.756 --> 0:11:01.436 that whatever I'm doing in my work always seems to 0:11:01.476 --> 0:11:03.996 be balancing what is happening in the rest of my life. 0:11:04.276 --> 0:11:06.516 For instance, when I lived in New York. I lived 0:11:06.636 --> 0:11:11.476 on a very very very noisy corner. It was on 0:11:11.516 --> 0:11:16.596 the corner of Broom and Broadway, so Broadway very busy street, 0:11:16.876 --> 0:11:19.196 and then Broom was the cross street where all the 0:11:19.276 --> 0:11:21.556 big trucks used to go on their way to the tunnel. 0:11:22.436 --> 0:11:23.956 I lived at the top of the building, but it 0:11:24.036 --> 0:11:27.396 used to kind of rock with this sound. And it 0:11:27.436 --> 0:11:30.596 was whilst I lived there that I made the quietest 0:11:30.676 --> 0:11:34.156 music I've ever made. And I'm sure what I was 0:11:34.196 --> 0:11:37.316 trying to do was to make the place in the 0:11:37.436 --> 0:11:39.836 music that I needed to be able to get to 0:11:40.396 --> 0:11:44.956 sometimes as a relief from living in New York. And 0:11:44.356 --> 0:11:49.156 then I moved back to England about two years later, 0:11:49.196 --> 0:11:52.316 three years later, and I moved to the countryside, to 0:11:52.356 --> 0:11:55.796 the town that I grew up in, very quiet, small 0:11:56.036 --> 0:12:01.956 country town. And then I made the loudest music I'd 0:12:01.956 --> 0:12:05.276 ever made in my life. Again, I think I needed 0:12:05.316 --> 0:12:08.796 a bit of city, I needed some grit, some noise. 0:12:10.076 --> 0:12:13.636 So yes, I think I think that's kind of what 0:12:13.756 --> 0:12:18.356 artists do. They're always making worlds, and sometimes worlds that 0:12:18.396 --> 0:12:21.036 they would just like to visit and look at. Sometimes 0:12:21.076 --> 0:12:24.396 worlds they would like to spend time in earlier, you 0:12:24.436 --> 0:12:27.716 said we're born with a particular taste. Do you feel 0:12:27.716 --> 0:12:30.956 like your current taste is the taste you were born 0:12:31.036 --> 0:12:35.596 with and or has it evolved and changed over the 0:12:35.596 --> 0:12:38.316 course of your life. That's a very good question. I 0:12:38.356 --> 0:12:41.276 remember when I first started painting, because painting was the 0:12:41.316 --> 0:12:44.596 first artistic thing I did. I never learned to play 0:12:44.636 --> 0:12:48.556 an instrument, so I was a painter as a kid. 0:12:49.276 --> 0:12:54.516 And I remember I loved combinations of red and blue 0:12:54.556 --> 0:12:58.636 that produced the mo violet range of the spectrum, and 0:12:58.796 --> 0:13:03.156 I did loads of paintings just exploring that sort of 0:13:03.436 --> 0:13:06.916 what I felt was a melancholy, deep area of color, 0:13:07.356 --> 0:13:11.076 and certainly the melancholy of it was a big part 0:13:11.116 --> 0:13:16.276 of what attracted me, and I don't think that's ever gone. 0:13:16.316 --> 0:13:19.676 I still have that feeling for It's sort of a 0:13:19.836 --> 0:13:25.036 nostalgia for other futures that could have happened but didn't. 0:13:25.196 --> 0:13:27.876 If you see what I mean. How old were you 0:13:27.916 --> 0:13:30.836 at this time that you were painting. Oh, I started 0:13:30.836 --> 0:13:33.196 when I was about nine or ten, but I got 0:13:33.236 --> 0:13:37.756 into the purple area when I was about thirteen or fourteen. 0:13:38.236 --> 0:13:41.236 I was very, very impressed by Mondrea, and from early 0:13:41.276 --> 0:13:44.196 on I used him as an example earlier, but I 0:13:44.236 --> 0:13:47.116 loved the simplicity of his pictures because I kept thinking, 0:13:47.476 --> 0:13:52.356 how can something that is so simple objectively, you know, 0:13:53.116 --> 0:13:55.716 how can that have such an effect on me? It 0:13:55.796 --> 0:13:59.676 was the closest thing to magic that I had ever seen, 0:14:00.116 --> 0:14:03.636 And at the same time I was I loved duop music. 0:14:04.196 --> 0:14:06.796 Now you're probably probably a bit too young for duap, 0:14:06.836 --> 0:14:09.356 aren't you, But I'm a fan of duo up. I 0:14:09.396 --> 0:14:11.676 am too young for it, But there was a growing 0:14:11.756 --> 0:14:14.716 up in New York there was a radio show on 0:14:14.956 --> 0:14:19.036 the oldie station on Sundays. They played two or three 0:14:19.076 --> 0:14:21.996 hours of duop every weekend, dan Quae Reid and I 0:14:22.036 --> 0:14:26.036 listened to it religiously, and I absolutely love dua Yeah, 0:14:26.076 --> 0:14:28.716 well this that had the same sort of effect on me, 0:14:28.796 --> 0:14:33.956 because duop is a very simple music in many senses, 0:14:33.996 --> 0:14:37.716 you know, it's mainly about voices, not not about lots 0:14:37.716 --> 0:14:40.396 of instruments and lots of playing. And in fact, the 0:14:40.476 --> 0:14:42.876 closer it was to a cappella, the more I liked it. 0:14:43.676 --> 0:14:48.556 And I just loved the fact that four voices could 0:14:48.676 --> 0:14:53.956 produce such a range of colors and feelings that seemed 0:14:53.956 --> 0:14:55.836 to me like on a par with Mandrea and you 0:14:55.876 --> 0:14:58.836 know how. And I was always very drawn to this 0:14:58.956 --> 0:15:01.796 idea of doing as much as possible with as little 0:15:01.836 --> 0:15:04.756 as possible. I was never impressed by the kind of 0:15:04.836 --> 0:15:10.436 music that used you know, complicated time signatures and amazingly 0:15:10.516 --> 0:15:13.756 brilliant playing and so on. It's sort of impressive, but 0:15:13.836 --> 0:15:16.356 for me, there was not the same magic in that 0:15:17.036 --> 0:15:19.956 you could see the trick being done, you know, So 0:15:20.476 --> 0:15:23.996 that part of my taste hasn't changed. I really am 0:15:24.036 --> 0:15:29.196 always drawn to things that look like anybody could do them, 0:15:29.556 --> 0:15:32.276 where you think I could have made that, but I 0:15:32.316 --> 0:15:38.636 fucking didn't. Why didn't I part I don't know if 0:15:38.676 --> 0:15:40.716 you have this feeling that part of the feeling of 0:15:41.716 --> 0:15:44.156 one of the feelings I always have that tells me 0:15:44.316 --> 0:15:50.196 something is great is kind of anger that I didn't 0:15:50.196 --> 0:15:56.636 do it. I don't have that, but I understand it. 0:15:58.036 --> 0:16:00.636 I do. I'm so thankful when there's something that I 0:16:00.676 --> 0:16:03.876 like that I didn't make, because it's so exciting, it's 0:16:03.916 --> 0:16:07.156 like Wow. Often I make things more out of the 0:16:08.276 --> 0:16:12.276 need for them to exist. Yes, that's exactly right. I 0:16:12.316 --> 0:16:15.636 want this music to exist. Yeah. The only reason I 0:16:15.996 --> 0:16:19.396 make music, The reason I got into this line of 0:16:19.396 --> 0:16:23.956 work was because I was experiencing hip hop music and 0:16:24.036 --> 0:16:27.356 the records that were being made didn't reflect what it 0:16:27.436 --> 0:16:31.876 actually was. So my earliest work was really just documenting 0:16:31.916 --> 0:16:35.356 something that I was already a fan of and it 0:16:35.356 --> 0:16:37.836 just didn't exist in the world, so I didn't really 0:16:37.836 --> 0:16:40.356 have a choice. So when I do hear something that 0:16:40.396 --> 0:16:44.836 I like, I get very excited because I'm always looking 0:16:44.836 --> 0:16:48.756 for something that feels like a new way in Yes, 0:16:49.516 --> 0:16:52.636 what you said there is something that I've often thought 0:16:52.676 --> 0:16:55.196 that the things that influenced me most in terms of 0:16:55.676 --> 0:17:00.076 actually making things are the things that I hear that 0:17:00.996 --> 0:17:05.196 don't quite succeed where I listened to them. I think 0:17:05.756 --> 0:17:08.556 that's a brilliant idea, And do you know what if 0:17:08.556 --> 0:17:12.436 they had done this and that and this other thing 0:17:12.836 --> 0:17:15.436 and left that bit out, that would be even better. 0:17:16.116 --> 0:17:19.676 So quite often when I'm thinking like that about something, 0:17:19.996 --> 0:17:23.716 I realize that I'm I'm inventing something new which isn't 0:17:23.756 --> 0:17:27.076 that thing, but isn't something that I really had thought 0:17:27.116 --> 0:17:31.476 about before either. So it's it's quite often hearing something 0:17:32.236 --> 0:17:35.916 just missing the mark that makes me think that could 0:17:35.916 --> 0:17:39.876 be better. That's been an important thread for me. Do 0:17:39.876 --> 0:17:42.996 you find that if you look back, the most interesting 0:17:43.076 --> 0:17:45.836 things have hit you that way, like when you first 0:17:45.916 --> 0:17:50.356 hear something or see something, you don't know whether you 0:17:50.396 --> 0:17:52.356 like it or not, or maybe it makes you laugh, 0:17:52.436 --> 0:17:55.796 or it seems ridiculous or yes, but then you come 0:17:55.796 --> 0:18:01.316 around to loving it or maybe loving it the most. Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. 0:18:01.836 --> 0:18:05.556 I really admired the who I'd loved that, my generation 0:18:05.596 --> 0:18:09.276 and things like that, And then they released a song 0:18:09.356 --> 0:18:14.236 called Happy Jack. I thought they shouldn't release lightweight material 0:18:14.316 --> 0:18:18.636 like this. They are a serious, revolutionary, radical band. What 0:18:18.756 --> 0:18:24.076 are they doing releasing this kind of material? And I 0:18:24.116 --> 0:18:30.556 even wrote to Pete Townsend saying saying, you shouldn't be 0:18:30.636 --> 0:18:36.156 releasing stuff like this, You're much too important, or something 0:18:36.316 --> 0:18:40.996 to that effect. And it was about three or four 0:18:41.036 --> 0:18:44.236 months later that I suddenly got it that this was 0:18:44.276 --> 0:18:47.276 a kind of pop art. So that's one example of 0:18:47.316 --> 0:18:50.636 something where I had a real change of mind. And 0:18:51.636 --> 0:18:54.876 I've had more of those in painting than in music. 0:18:55.276 --> 0:19:00.836 In music, I kind of very often have a pretty 0:19:00.836 --> 0:19:04.196 good feeling of what is about to happen. I don't 0:19:04.196 --> 0:19:08.916 mean that I could make it, but I'm not incredibly 0:19:09.196 --> 0:19:13.476 prized by it. For instance, I remember saying to David Byrne, 0:19:14.076 --> 0:19:16.916 we were in a car in Los Angeles in nineteen 0:19:16.996 --> 0:19:20.716 eighty and I said, I think there is going to 0:19:20.796 --> 0:19:24.996 be a kind of music where people kind of shout 0:19:25.116 --> 0:19:31.796 poetry over beats. And indeed there was. It wasn't entirely 0:19:32.556 --> 0:19:40.156 an unscripted idea. I'd heard something on MPR. It was 0:19:40.476 --> 0:19:46.236 a poet, a black poet from somewhere in America, reading 0:19:46.276 --> 0:19:51.436 this poem called Cadillac. I spent years trying to find 0:19:51.476 --> 0:19:53.956 this thing. I never found it. I wrote to MPR 0:19:54.076 --> 0:19:56.676 and I phoned them up and everything. It was called 0:19:56.716 --> 0:20:01.396 Pink Cadillac. And he just did this amazing, very rhythmic 0:20:01.476 --> 0:20:05.236 poem about how he wanted a pink Cadillac and how 0:20:05.276 --> 0:20:08.156 cool it was and how it turned rounded the corner 0:20:08.196 --> 0:20:10.996 and things like that. And I thought, this is a 0:20:11.236 --> 0:20:15.276 new kind of music. I mean, I had I knew 0:20:15.276 --> 0:20:18.716 about the last poets. They they were sort of in 0:20:18.796 --> 0:20:20.916 the back of my mind as well. But I just 0:20:20.996 --> 0:20:25.476 suddenly had this vision of a popular music, not a 0:20:25.556 --> 0:20:27.956 music that would only be on NPR, but a popular 0:20:28.036 --> 0:20:31.636 music that people would want to hear, that had heavy 0:20:31.676 --> 0:20:39.756 beats and speech, not songs. Was the pink Cadillac piece 0:20:39.796 --> 0:20:41.436 that you heard, did it have a beat or was 0:20:41.436 --> 0:20:44.716 it a cappella? I think it was a cappella or 0:20:45.316 --> 0:20:47.996 just had a very I can't remember it very well now. 0:20:48.356 --> 0:20:52.236 In fact, I only heard it that once. It just 0:20:52.636 --> 0:20:55.076 stuck in my mind, and I can still remember the 0:20:55.196 --> 0:20:58.076 cadence of some of it. And there may have just 0:20:58.156 --> 0:21:06.436 been a you know, that pink callac that kind of 0:21:06.476 --> 0:21:08.836 feeling to it, you know, and I thought, yeah, that 0:21:08.996 --> 0:21:12.476 is definitely new. We'll be right back after a quick 0:21:12.516 --> 0:21:18.476 break with more from Brian Enow. We're back with more 0:21:18.516 --> 0:21:21.916 from Rick Rubin and Brian Eno. Can you remember any 0:21:21.956 --> 0:21:26.676 other forms of music that either do or don't yet 0:21:26.756 --> 0:21:31.556 exist that you've imagined. Yes, there's one that has just 0:21:31.716 --> 0:21:35.116 come into existence, I think, and it's something that I 0:21:35.196 --> 0:21:37.956 have been sort of playing around with. Do you know 0:21:38.036 --> 0:21:42.356 this listening practice? I don't really know what to call 0:21:42.396 --> 0:21:45.156 it exactly. I could call it music, but I'm not 0:21:45.236 --> 0:21:48.236 sure this is the right word for it. It's called 0:21:48.276 --> 0:21:52.996 as mr H. This is where people are listening very 0:21:53.036 --> 0:21:57.636 close up. Noisest like this, and there's lots of smacking 0:21:57.716 --> 0:22:05.316 lips and that kind of thing. And basically people tell 0:22:05.796 --> 0:22:09.516 quite long stories, but they're hardly stories. It's about that sound, 0:22:09.556 --> 0:22:13.036 and they often use stereo microphones so they can move 0:22:13.356 --> 0:22:15.796 their voices from one from one of your ears to 0:22:15.836 --> 0:22:19.196 the other and back and forth. It's very, very interesting 0:22:19.276 --> 0:22:23.636 because these are quite long pieces, and just go on 0:22:23.756 --> 0:22:26.796 YouTube and have a look. They've got millions and millions 0:22:26.796 --> 0:22:29.516 of listeners, so there's a lot of people doing this. 0:22:30.156 --> 0:22:34.236 So I heard these first of all, I think three 0:22:34.276 --> 0:22:36.836 or four years ago. I heard the first ones and thought, 0:22:36.876 --> 0:22:41.596 this is really interesting. This is like having somebody wandering 0:22:41.596 --> 0:22:45.996 around inside your head whispering to you. And I thought, 0:22:46.636 --> 0:22:49.636 this is kind of a night. It's like ambient music. Actually, 0:22:50.316 --> 0:22:54.036 there's a sort of diminution of content in favor of sound. 0:22:54.636 --> 0:22:59.156 So it's a kind of live of the moment sound 0:22:59.236 --> 0:23:02.876 experience that doesn't really have a past or a future. 0:23:03.276 --> 0:23:07.716 You know. It's not what philosophers called teleological. It doesn't 0:23:08.676 --> 0:23:12.996 doesn't go somewhere, it doesn't have a goal. It's a 0:23:13.076 --> 0:23:16.516 steady state experience. And this, of course is what I 0:23:16.556 --> 0:23:19.196 always wanted ambient music to be. Like a like a 0:23:19.236 --> 0:23:22.116 picture on the wall. You don't expect it to change 0:23:22.116 --> 0:23:25.756 all the time. What changes is you, the listener. The 0:23:26.156 --> 0:23:30.516 art stays relatively still. So I heard this as mr 0:23:30.596 --> 0:23:34.476 Stuff and thought, this is a kind of ambient music, 0:23:34.916 --> 0:23:42.236 And I thought, what about making music that is vocal music? 0:23:42.556 --> 0:23:45.716 But like that, I had never really thought about ambient 0:23:45.796 --> 0:23:49.716 music being vocal before then. In fact, it was for 0:23:49.796 --> 0:23:54.556 me specifically not vocal. It was a sort of deliberately 0:23:54.676 --> 0:23:58.436 personality free music. And putting a voice in there to 0:23:58.516 --> 0:24:00.956 me was to say to draw all the attention to 0:24:01.076 --> 0:24:04.996 the voice and say, oh, here's somebody with something to 0:24:05.036 --> 0:24:08.556 tell you, And I really didn't want that. But then 0:24:08.596 --> 0:24:12.196 when I heard this ASMR, I thought, this person clearly 0:24:12.236 --> 0:24:15.516 has nothing to tell me at all. They're talking about 0:24:15.516 --> 0:24:20.636 how they comb their hair and doing it for twenty 0:24:20.636 --> 0:24:25.156 five minutes. Clearly the message is not about combing hair. 0:24:25.276 --> 0:24:28.996 The message is about being inside a voice for a 0:24:28.996 --> 0:24:34.876 decent length of time. So I started to think, what 0:24:35.076 --> 0:24:39.716 would you do to existing music to make it occupy 0:24:39.836 --> 0:24:44.996 that same space, And then I started experimenting with my 0:24:45.076 --> 0:24:47.636 favorite tool of all in the studio, which is the 0:24:47.676 --> 0:24:51.116 low pass filter. Just taking off all the high frequency 0:24:51.516 --> 0:24:56.516 of things has an amazing psychological effect to me. It 0:24:56.556 --> 0:25:05.156 creates scale, distance, warmth, and a weird sort of intimacy, 0:25:05.236 --> 0:25:09.556 which is quite strange, I think because you know, missing 0:25:09.556 --> 0:25:13.756 a lot of detail. Your brain very actively engages with 0:25:13.796 --> 0:25:16.756 those kinds of sounds. That's my theory about why it's 0:25:16.956 --> 0:25:22.676 interesting anyway, So I started thinking, perhaps there could be 0:25:22.676 --> 0:25:27.476 a kind of music like that where we take existing songs, 0:25:27.556 --> 0:25:31.756 you know, a Rihannah record, or and we just put 0:25:31.796 --> 0:25:34.716 it through a low pass filter, but really a really 0:25:34.836 --> 0:25:38.916 radical low pass filter. So nothing above say two hundred 0:25:38.916 --> 0:25:44.236 and fifty hurts is audible. If you listen to a 0:25:44.236 --> 0:25:49.156 Beyonce record through a wall, it's not exhausting, it's warm. 0:25:49.996 --> 0:25:53.756 So about a week ago somebody said to me, oh, 0:25:53.796 --> 0:25:57.956 have you heard this new as Mr Music thing, and 0:25:58.076 --> 0:26:03.156 described exactly that same experiment. So it's like you're listening 0:26:03.156 --> 0:26:07.076 to records that are being played in another room. So 0:26:07.156 --> 0:26:15.516 you just have that sort of comforting. You can't really 0:26:15.596 --> 0:26:20.316 figure out what it is, but it's sociable somehow, it's friendly. 0:26:20.636 --> 0:26:26.076 It's like having other people around. It's like a daydream almost. Yes, yes, yes, 0:26:26.516 --> 0:26:29.276 that's a good way of saying it. Yeah, sounds fantastic. 0:26:30.316 --> 0:26:34.156 On the other side of that, are lyrics ever important 0:26:34.196 --> 0:26:38.876 to you? They're very rarely the thing I'm most listening 0:26:38.876 --> 0:26:45.356 to in music. I think the base requirement for me 0:26:46.236 --> 0:26:49.116 in lyrics is that they don't make the music stupid, 0:26:50.276 --> 0:26:52.556 which turns out to be quite a high bar in 0:26:52.676 --> 0:26:56.676 many cats Now people say do up lyrics are stupid, 0:26:56.716 --> 0:26:59.116 but I don't think they are at all. They serve 0:26:59.196 --> 0:27:03.996 the music absolutely. Do up lyrics are the way of 0:27:04.036 --> 0:27:07.916 making a voice become musical. What is always awkward to 0:27:07.956 --> 0:27:11.436 me is when somebody feels they have something to say 0:27:11.676 --> 0:27:16.916