1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:31,036 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Not many musicians cite design or architecture as their inspiration, 2 00:00:32,156 --> 00:00:35,316 Speaker 1: but sitting in a beautifully designed German airport in nineteen 3 00:00:35,396 --> 00:00:39,516 Speaker 1: seventy eight, Brian Eno was inspired to create atmospheric music 4 00:00:39,676 --> 00:00:44,556 Speaker 1: to complement the space. His landmark album Music for Airports followed, 5 00:00:45,116 --> 00:00:49,676 Speaker 1: and with it Eno created ambient music, an entirely new 6 00:00:49,756 --> 00:00:55,676 Speaker 1: genre that still thrives today. Brian ENO's fifty year career 7 00:00:56,036 --> 00:00:59,476 Speaker 1: is teaming with innovation. He started out playing since in 8 00:00:59,516 --> 00:01:02,076 Speaker 1: the early seventies as a member of the UK glam 9 00:01:02,196 --> 00:01:05,796 Speaker 1: rock band Roxy Music, went on to record a series 10 00:01:05,836 --> 00:01:09,916 Speaker 1: of solo albums and eventually produced career defining albums for 11 00:01:09,996 --> 00:01:14,076 Speaker 1: a host of bands, including YouTube Devo and Cold Playing. 12 00:01:15,116 --> 00:01:18,916 Speaker 1: His latest project is a radio station through Sono's Radio HD. 13 00:01:19,596 --> 00:01:23,076 Speaker 1: He'll be streaming three hundred unreleased songs from his decades 14 00:01:23,076 --> 00:01:27,276 Speaker 1: in music, including some that he's still making today. The 15 00:01:27,356 --> 00:01:31,916 Speaker 1: station is called the Lighthouse, and on today's episode, Rick 16 00:01:31,956 --> 00:01:34,756 Speaker 1: Rubin talks to Brian Eno a bit about that station 17 00:01:35,516 --> 00:01:38,036 Speaker 1: and also about his love for the musical space that 18 00:01:38,116 --> 00:01:43,396 Speaker 1: exists between humans and machines. Eno also recalls predicting the 19 00:01:43,396 --> 00:01:45,076 Speaker 1: birth of hip hop and the back of a Cab 20 00:01:45,156 --> 00:01:48,956 Speaker 1: with David Byrne and explains why listening to Beyonce playing 21 00:01:48,956 --> 00:01:57,716 Speaker 1: through a wall is strangely satisfying. This is broken record 22 00:01:57,916 --> 00:02:05,996 Speaker 1: liner notes for the Digital Age. I'm justin Richmond. Here's 23 00:02:06,076 --> 00:02:09,876 Speaker 1: Rick Rubin with Brian Eno. I'm gonna starting a funny 24 00:02:09,876 --> 00:02:12,236 Speaker 1: place because just now, before we started, I was thinking 25 00:02:12,276 --> 00:02:14,556 Speaker 1: about a lot of things, and the last thought that 26 00:02:14,596 --> 00:02:17,836 Speaker 1: came up before I made notes this morning was to 27 00:02:17,876 --> 00:02:21,516 Speaker 1: ask what was the last bit of technology to come 28 00:02:21,556 --> 00:02:26,356 Speaker 1: along that has influenced the way you work? There have 29 00:02:26,476 --> 00:02:29,556 Speaker 1: been a few. I've been working quite a lot with 30 00:02:30,316 --> 00:02:34,916 Speaker 1: my friend Peter Chilvers, who's an musician and a coda 31 00:02:34,996 --> 00:02:40,916 Speaker 1: and we've been working on ways of manipulating MIDI automatically 32 00:02:41,796 --> 00:02:45,716 Speaker 1: and effectively. What we're doing is taking a MIDI signal 33 00:02:46,156 --> 00:02:52,396 Speaker 1: and subjecting it to various probabilistic mutations. So, for instance, 34 00:02:52,716 --> 00:02:55,916 Speaker 1: you have a stream of information going into the MIDI 35 00:02:55,956 --> 00:02:59,516 Speaker 1: and you say leave out thirteen percent of that. So 36 00:02:59,556 --> 00:03:01,996 Speaker 1: if you have a drum part, it sounds like the 37 00:03:02,076 --> 00:03:05,676 Speaker 1: drummer's dropping a beat every so often, or we can 38 00:03:05,716 --> 00:03:11,396 Speaker 1: say things like every one in twenty beats, double it 39 00:03:11,996 --> 00:03:15,956 Speaker 1: or move it by a quarter beat. So we can 40 00:03:16,116 --> 00:03:20,516 Speaker 1: take parts that are fairly fixed, or which are loops 41 00:03:20,556 --> 00:03:23,396 Speaker 1: in fact, and we can suddenly bring them to life 42 00:03:23,396 --> 00:03:28,196 Speaker 1: in some very very interesting and uncanny ways. It doesn't 43 00:03:28,236 --> 00:03:31,756 Speaker 1: really sound like what humans would do, but it doesn't 44 00:03:31,756 --> 00:03:34,916 Speaker 1: sound like what machines do either, so it's an interesting 45 00:03:35,276 --> 00:03:39,716 Speaker 1: new zone. I think I've always liked those zones between 46 00:03:39,716 --> 00:03:42,436 Speaker 1: the human and the mechanical. This is why I love 47 00:03:43,316 --> 00:03:45,836 Speaker 1: all the voice treatments that are going on now so much, 48 00:03:45,916 --> 00:03:49,316 Speaker 1: because that's always what I wanted to hear. One The 49 00:03:49,396 --> 00:03:52,116 Speaker 1: one thing that used to be sacred you could never touch, 50 00:03:52,276 --> 00:03:55,556 Speaker 1: was the voice, and I always thought, why not. You know, 51 00:03:55,596 --> 00:03:58,876 Speaker 1: it's just another piece of electronic material, like anything else. 52 00:03:58,916 --> 00:04:00,956 Speaker 1: We can do what we like with it. Do you 53 00:04:00,996 --> 00:04:02,836 Speaker 1: ever feel like going the other way? Do you ever 54 00:04:03,836 --> 00:04:09,676 Speaker 1: start with something that synthetical programmed and decide to create 55 00:04:09,756 --> 00:04:13,476 Speaker 1: it with traditional instruments? Have you ever done that? I've 56 00:04:13,516 --> 00:04:18,756 Speaker 1: done that, and it hasn't always been very successful. In fact, 57 00:04:18,796 --> 00:04:22,956 Speaker 1: it's actually rather rarely being successful for me, and I 58 00:04:22,996 --> 00:04:26,596 Speaker 1: think it's because what I enjoy about the use of 59 00:04:26,636 --> 00:04:30,596 Speaker 1: the electronics and the computers is that they do things 60 00:04:30,636 --> 00:04:34,716 Speaker 1: that humans can't do, and I really like that area 61 00:04:34,836 --> 00:04:37,996 Speaker 1: just between what we can do and what machines can do. 62 00:04:38,516 --> 00:04:42,596 Speaker 1: There's this sort of new area that is appearing. I mean, 63 00:04:42,636 --> 00:04:45,316 Speaker 1: people are noticing it more and more, particularly with vocals. 64 00:04:46,076 --> 00:04:48,836 Speaker 1: Suddenly there are these ways of singing that you've never 65 00:04:48,836 --> 00:04:52,116 Speaker 1: heard before. And what's very interesting, of course, is that 66 00:04:52,436 --> 00:04:55,156 Speaker 1: a new generation of people are learning to sing like that. 67 00:04:56,316 --> 00:04:57,996 Speaker 1: I don't know if you've ever seen any of those 68 00:04:58,036 --> 00:05:02,876 Speaker 1: wonderful things on YouTube where young people have clearly heard 69 00:05:03,236 --> 00:05:05,956 Speaker 1: a Rihannah record or something like that and thought, oh, 70 00:05:06,036 --> 00:05:08,916 Speaker 1: that's great, I'm going to sing like that, and they 71 00:05:09,116 --> 00:05:12,756 Speaker 1: don't actually realize that it's done with an auto tune. Yes, 72 00:05:13,276 --> 00:05:15,876 Speaker 1: that it was not possible to sing like that until 73 00:05:16,036 --> 00:05:20,036 Speaker 1: somebody did it with a machine, and then somebody else thought, well, 74 00:05:20,036 --> 00:05:23,316 Speaker 1: it's possible, so I'll do it. In the case of 75 00:05:23,356 --> 00:05:27,436 Speaker 1: the first example, where you're removing bits of media information, 76 00:05:28,236 --> 00:05:32,436 Speaker 1: would you say that the random aspect of the process 77 00:05:32,676 --> 00:05:36,356 Speaker 1: is always at work for you? I like things when 78 00:05:36,476 --> 00:05:39,316 Speaker 1: there's a layer of surprise, I suppose, and it's not 79 00:05:39,396 --> 00:05:43,236 Speaker 1: because I have this John Cage and faith in randomness. 80 00:05:43,716 --> 00:05:46,756 Speaker 1: For him, it was a sort of religious feeling that 81 00:05:47,156 --> 00:05:51,276 Speaker 1: randomness tied you into the synchronicity of the world. Somehow, 82 00:05:52,236 --> 00:05:56,276 Speaker 1: by using randomness, you allowed the state of things to 83 00:05:56,316 --> 00:05:59,036 Speaker 1: affect your work. It's a nice idea, and I like 84 00:05:59,156 --> 00:06:01,716 Speaker 1: it and I respect it in his work. For me, 85 00:06:01,916 --> 00:06:06,316 Speaker 1: it's a way of searching a musical space that I 86 00:06:06,356 --> 00:06:10,716 Speaker 1: wouldn't do using just my taste. I mean, one's taste 87 00:06:10,796 --> 00:06:13,996 Speaker 1: tends to propel you into the same areas over and 88 00:06:14,036 --> 00:06:17,836 Speaker 1: over again. The interesting thing about randomness is that sometimes 89 00:06:18,556 --> 00:06:22,236 Speaker 1: you're taken somewhere that you didn't expect to go, and 90 00:06:22,436 --> 00:06:26,436 Speaker 1: sometimes that turns out to be a really interesting new place. 91 00:06:27,356 --> 00:06:31,396 Speaker 1: So randomness for me is really just a tool, just 92 00:06:31,436 --> 00:06:34,436 Speaker 1: a way of taking me somewhere different. So it's not 93 00:06:34,596 --> 00:06:37,996 Speaker 1: random for the sake of random. But through the random process, 94 00:06:38,116 --> 00:06:41,196 Speaker 1: you find something new that you're looking for that you 95 00:06:41,476 --> 00:06:44,756 Speaker 1: didn't know you were looking for. Essentially, that's exactly right. Yes, 96 00:06:45,396 --> 00:06:48,716 Speaker 1: something happens and you kind of recognize that, you think, yes, 97 00:06:49,316 --> 00:06:52,636 Speaker 1: that makes sense. The reason I think this is interesting 98 00:06:52,756 --> 00:06:56,596 Speaker 1: is because I think what makes any work of art 99 00:06:56,836 --> 00:07:02,036 Speaker 1: interesting is or gripping or effective, is the feeling that 100 00:07:02,196 --> 00:07:07,476 Speaker 1: somebody was living, somebody was living it, somebody was alert 101 00:07:07,676 --> 00:07:12,676 Speaker 1: and alive and passionate in some way, and the way 102 00:07:12,716 --> 00:07:15,876 Speaker 1: you get into that state is by being an unfamiliar territory. 103 00:07:15,916 --> 00:07:20,356 Speaker 1: I think you're you're most alive when you're not quite 104 00:07:20,396 --> 00:07:24,396 Speaker 1: sure what is going on, when you're you're slightly flying 105 00:07:24,436 --> 00:07:27,436 Speaker 1: by the seat of your pants and you have to 106 00:07:27,476 --> 00:07:32,476 Speaker 1: negotiate it somehow. That's that's why we love improvisation so much, 107 00:07:32,556 --> 00:07:36,716 Speaker 1: because people are deliberately putting themselves at risk in a way, 108 00:07:37,276 --> 00:07:41,636 Speaker 1: soaring out into the unknown, and somehow dealing with it. 109 00:07:41,876 --> 00:07:45,756 Speaker 1: And that process of hearing someone dealing with it is 110 00:07:45,756 --> 00:07:48,436 Speaker 1: the difference between life and death in a piece of work. 111 00:07:48,476 --> 00:07:54,356 Speaker 1: I think. So I suppose all all of the strategies 112 00:07:54,356 --> 00:07:57,676 Speaker 1: and techniques that I use, and they are quite a 113 00:07:57,676 --> 00:08:03,036 Speaker 1: lot of them. Besides randomness, are really ways of trying 114 00:08:03,076 --> 00:08:06,436 Speaker 1: to find myself in a new place, because I get 115 00:08:06,436 --> 00:08:09,076 Speaker 1: excited when I'm in a new place. I like being 116 00:08:09,236 --> 00:08:12,996 Speaker 1: in unfamiliar surroundings. I always used to say that artists 117 00:08:13,076 --> 00:08:18,076 Speaker 1: are either cowboys or farmers, really, and they're both both 118 00:08:18,116 --> 00:08:20,396 Speaker 1: ways of being an artist to find you know, the 119 00:08:20,436 --> 00:08:24,796 Speaker 1: farmer wants to find a piece of territory and fully 120 00:08:24,796 --> 00:08:27,876 Speaker 1: explore it and exploit it. You know. You could say 121 00:08:28,676 --> 00:08:30,916 Speaker 1: the last twenty years of Mandrea and was like that. 122 00:08:30,956 --> 00:08:35,476 Speaker 1: When Mondrea finally settled on the style that we all 123 00:08:35,556 --> 00:08:39,556 Speaker 1: know him for, he just carried on doing it. But 124 00:08:40,236 --> 00:08:42,796 Speaker 1: the other kind of artist is the one who just 125 00:08:42,916 --> 00:08:47,156 Speaker 1: wants to find somewhere new. He just wants to find 126 00:08:47,156 --> 00:08:50,596 Speaker 1: the next frontier, the next piece of territory, and that's 127 00:08:50,636 --> 00:08:54,836 Speaker 1: what he gets turned on by. So I think I'm 128 00:08:54,916 --> 00:08:58,556 Speaker 1: more in the second category, though, people listening to my 129 00:08:58,676 --> 00:09:01,556 Speaker 1: work would say, but it all sounds exactly the same, Brian. 130 00:09:06,356 --> 00:09:09,556 Speaker 1: Do you have that same approach in life beyond? Are 131 00:09:09,636 --> 00:09:12,436 Speaker 1: you an explorer? Have you lived all over the world? 132 00:09:12,516 --> 00:09:16,956 Speaker 1: Do you continue to put yourself in new situations as 133 00:09:16,956 --> 00:09:19,716 Speaker 1: a human being as opposed to an artist. I have 134 00:09:19,956 --> 00:09:23,396 Speaker 1: such an amazing amount of inertia, you wouldn't believe it. 135 00:09:23,876 --> 00:09:28,316 Speaker 1: I wouldn't leave my studio if I had the choice. Probably, No, 136 00:09:28,436 --> 00:09:31,196 Speaker 1: it's not that bad. But the only reason I ever 137 00:09:31,236 --> 00:09:33,596 Speaker 1: go anywhere really is because I don't have a choice. 138 00:09:34,076 --> 00:09:37,116 Speaker 1: For instance, I had to go to New York in 139 00:09:37,276 --> 00:09:42,356 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy eight do something for a week, and it 140 00:09:42,436 --> 00:09:45,196 Speaker 1: was a nice, lovely weather. When I arrived, it was 141 00:09:45,676 --> 00:09:49,716 Speaker 1: this time of year. Somebody said, well, I've got a 142 00:09:49,756 --> 00:09:52,596 Speaker 1: sublet if you want to stay, And I ended up 143 00:09:52,636 --> 00:09:56,156 Speaker 1: spending five years there just because it was a nice 144 00:09:56,236 --> 00:09:59,876 Speaker 1: day when I arrived. Yes, I didn't have any intention 145 00:09:59,916 --> 00:10:02,076 Speaker 1: of living in New York. And then I left New 146 00:10:02,156 --> 00:10:06,116 Speaker 1: York because I had to go to Tokyo to do something. 147 00:10:06,156 --> 00:10:09,276 Speaker 1: And I was away in Tokyo and somebody robbed my 148 00:10:09,356 --> 00:10:15,676 Speaker 1: studio and took everything. Actually everything was gone, and somebody 149 00:10:15,756 --> 00:10:18,316 Speaker 1: rang me up and said, your whole studio has disappeared. 150 00:10:18,356 --> 00:10:23,156 Speaker 1: And I suddenly had this feeling of relief. I thought, oh, 151 00:10:23,196 --> 00:10:24,916 Speaker 1: I don't have to go back to New York then, 152 00:10:25,916 --> 00:10:29,116 Speaker 1: So then I moved to Toronto after that for a 153 00:10:29,116 --> 00:10:32,796 Speaker 1: little while. But I don't really move very much unless 154 00:10:32,836 --> 00:10:35,756 Speaker 1: I have to for some reason, or unless I don't 155 00:10:35,796 --> 00:10:39,676 Speaker 1: plan things very well. I'm pretty happy wherever I am. Actually, 156 00:10:39,996 --> 00:10:43,356 Speaker 1: I think we have that income and it's funny. I'm 157 00:10:43,396 --> 00:10:50,476 Speaker 1: wondering if the urge to adventure creatively is the balance 158 00:10:51,636 --> 00:10:53,716 Speaker 1: for the fact that we lived such her metical lives. 159 00:10:54,476 --> 00:10:57,636 Speaker 1: I think that's a very good theory. Yes, I know 160 00:10:57,756 --> 00:11:01,436 Speaker 1: that whatever I'm doing in my work always seems to 161 00:11:01,476 --> 00:11:03,996 Speaker 1: be balancing what is happening in the rest of my life. 162 00:11:04,276 --> 00:11:06,516 Speaker 1: For instance, when I lived in New York. I lived 163 00:11:06,636 --> 00:11:11,476 Speaker 1: on a very very very noisy corner. It was on 164 00:11:11,516 --> 00:11:16,596 Speaker 1: the corner of Broom and Broadway, so Broadway very busy street, 165 00:11:16,876 --> 00:11:19,196 Speaker 1: and then Broom was the cross street where all the 166 00:11:19,276 --> 00:11:21,556 Speaker 1: big trucks used to go on their way to the tunnel. 167 00:11:22,436 --> 00:11:23,956 Speaker 1: I lived at the top of the building, but it 168 00:11:24,036 --> 00:11:27,396 Speaker 1: used to kind of rock with this sound. And it 169 00:11:27,436 --> 00:11:30,596 Speaker 1: was whilst I lived there that I made the quietest 170 00:11:30,676 --> 00:11:34,156 Speaker 1: music I've ever made. And I'm sure what I was 171 00:11:34,196 --> 00:11:37,316 Speaker 1: trying to do was to make the place in the 172 00:11:37,436 --> 00:11:39,836 Speaker 1: music that I needed to be able to get to 173 00:11:40,396 --> 00:11:44,956 Speaker 1: sometimes as a relief from living in New York. And 174 00:11:44,356 --> 00:11:49,156 Speaker 1: then I moved back to England about two years later, 175 00:11:49,196 --> 00:11:52,316 Speaker 1: three years later, and I moved to the countryside, to 176 00:11:52,356 --> 00:11:55,796 Speaker 1: the town that I grew up in, very quiet, small 177 00:11:56,036 --> 00:12:01,956 Speaker 1: country town. And then I made the loudest music I'd 178 00:12:01,956 --> 00:12:05,276 Speaker 1: ever made in my life. Again, I think I needed 179 00:12:05,316 --> 00:12:08,796 Speaker 1: a bit of city, I needed some grit, some noise. 180 00:12:10,076 --> 00:12:13,636 Speaker 1: So yes, I think I think that's kind of what 181 00:12:13,756 --> 00:12:18,356 Speaker 1: artists do. They're always making worlds, and sometimes worlds that 182 00:12:18,396 --> 00:12:21,036 Speaker 1: they would just like to visit and look at. Sometimes 183 00:12:21,076 --> 00:12:24,396 Speaker 1: worlds they would like to spend time in earlier, you 184 00:12:24,436 --> 00:12:27,716 Speaker 1: said we're born with a particular taste. Do you feel 185 00:12:27,716 --> 00:12:30,956 Speaker 1: like your current taste is the taste you were born 186 00:12:31,036 --> 00:12:35,596 Speaker 1: with and or has it evolved and changed over the 187 00:12:35,596 --> 00:12:38,316 Speaker 1: course of your life. That's a very good question. I 188 00:12:38,356 --> 00:12:41,276 Speaker 1: remember when I first started painting, because painting was the 189 00:12:41,316 --> 00:12:44,596 Speaker 1: first artistic thing I did. I never learned to play 190 00:12:44,636 --> 00:12:48,556 Speaker 1: an instrument, so I was a painter as a kid. 191 00:12:49,276 --> 00:12:54,516 Speaker 1: And I remember I loved combinations of red and blue 192 00:12:54,556 --> 00:12:58,636 Speaker 1: that produced the mo violet range of the spectrum, and 193 00:12:58,796 --> 00:13:03,156 Speaker 1: I did loads of paintings just exploring that sort of 194 00:13:03,436 --> 00:13:06,916 Speaker 1: what I felt was a melancholy, deep area of color, 195 00:13:07,356 --> 00:13:11,076 Speaker 1: and certainly the melancholy of it was a big part 196 00:13:11,116 --> 00:13:16,276 Speaker 1: of what attracted me, and I don't think that's ever gone. 197 00:13:16,316 --> 00:13:19,676 Speaker 1: I still have that feeling for It's sort of a 198 00:13:19,836 --> 00:13:25,036 Speaker 1: nostalgia for other futures that could have happened but didn't. 199 00:13:25,196 --> 00:13:27,876 Speaker 1: If you see what I mean. How old were you 200 00:13:27,916 --> 00:13:30,836 Speaker 1: at this time that you were painting. Oh, I started 201 00:13:30,836 --> 00:13:33,196 Speaker 1: when I was about nine or ten, but I got 202 00:13:33,236 --> 00:13:37,756 Speaker 1: into the purple area when I was about thirteen or fourteen. 203 00:13:38,236 --> 00:13:41,236 Speaker 1: I was very, very impressed by Mondrea, and from early 204 00:13:41,276 --> 00:13:44,196 Speaker 1: on I used him as an example earlier, but I 205 00:13:44,236 --> 00:13:47,116 Speaker 1: loved the simplicity of his pictures because I kept thinking, 206 00:13:47,476 --> 00:13:52,356 Speaker 1: how can something that is so simple objectively, you know, 207 00:13:53,116 --> 00:13:55,716 Speaker 1: how can that have such an effect on me? It 208 00:13:55,796 --> 00:13:59,676 Speaker 1: was the closest thing to magic that I had ever seen, 209 00:14:00,116 --> 00:14:03,636 Speaker 1: And at the same time I was I loved duop music. 210 00:14:04,196 --> 00:14:06,796 Speaker 1: Now you're probably probably a bit too young for duap, 211 00:14:06,836 --> 00:14:09,356 Speaker 1: aren't you, But I'm a fan of duo up. I 212 00:14:09,396 --> 00:14:11,676 Speaker 1: am too young for it, But there was a growing 213 00:14:11,756 --> 00:14:14,716 Speaker 1: up in New York there was a radio show on 214 00:14:14,956 --> 00:14:19,036 Speaker 1: the oldie station on Sundays. They played two or three 215 00:14:19,076 --> 00:14:21,996 Speaker 1: hours of duop every weekend, dan Quae Reid and I 216 00:14:22,036 --> 00:14:26,036 Speaker 1: listened to it religiously, and I absolutely love dua Yeah, 217 00:14:26,076 --> 00:14:28,716 Speaker 1: well this that had the same sort of effect on me, 218 00:14:28,796 --> 00:14:33,956 Speaker 1: because duop is a very simple music in many senses, 219 00:14:33,996 --> 00:14:37,716 Speaker 1: you know, it's mainly about voices, not not about lots 220 00:14:37,716 --> 00:14:40,396 Speaker 1: of instruments and lots of playing. And in fact, the 221 00:14:40,476 --> 00:14:42,876 Speaker 1: closer it was to a cappella, the more I liked it. 222 00:14:43,676 --> 00:14:48,556 Speaker 1: And I just loved the fact that four voices could 223 00:14:48,676 --> 00:14:53,956 Speaker 1: produce such a range of colors and feelings that seemed 224 00:14:53,956 --> 00:14:55,836 Speaker 1: to me like on a par with Mandrea and you 225 00:14:55,876 --> 00:14:58,836 Speaker 1: know how. And I was always very drawn to this 226 00:14:58,956 --> 00:15:01,796 Speaker 1: idea of doing as much as possible with as little 227 00:15:01,836 --> 00:15:04,756 Speaker 1: as possible. I was never impressed by the kind of 228 00:15:04,836 --> 00:15:10,436 Speaker 1: music that used you know, complicated time signatures and amazingly 229 00:15:10,516 --> 00:15:13,756 Speaker 1: brilliant playing and so on. It's sort of impressive, but 230 00:15:13,836 --> 00:15:16,356 Speaker 1: for me, there was not the same magic in that 231 00:15:17,036 --> 00:15:19,956 Speaker 1: you could see the trick being done, you know, So 232 00:15:20,476 --> 00:15:23,996 Speaker 1: that part of my taste hasn't changed. I really am 233 00:15:24,036 --> 00:15:29,196 Speaker 1: always drawn to things that look like anybody could do them, 234 00:15:29,556 --> 00:15:32,276 Speaker 1: where you think I could have made that, but I 235 00:15:32,316 --> 00:15:38,636 Speaker 1: fucking didn't. Why didn't I part I don't know if 236 00:15:38,676 --> 00:15:40,716 Speaker 1: you have this feeling that part of the feeling of 237 00:15:41,716 --> 00:15:44,156 Speaker 1: one of the feelings I always have that tells me 238 00:15:44,316 --> 00:15:50,196 Speaker 1: something is great is kind of anger that I didn't 239 00:15:50,196 --> 00:15:56,636 Speaker 1: do it. I don't have that, but I understand it. 240 00:15:58,036 --> 00:16:00,636 Speaker 1: I do. I'm so thankful when there's something that I 241 00:16:00,676 --> 00:16:03,876 Speaker 1: like that I didn't make, because it's so exciting, it's 242 00:16:03,916 --> 00:16:07,156 Speaker 1: like Wow. Often I make things more out of the 243 00:16:08,276 --> 00:16:12,276 Speaker 1: need for them to exist. Yes, that's exactly right. I 244 00:16:12,316 --> 00:16:15,636 Speaker 1: want this music to exist. Yeah. The only reason I 245 00:16:15,996 --> 00:16:19,396 Speaker 1: make music, The reason I got into this line of 246 00:16:19,396 --> 00:16:23,956 Speaker 1: work was because I was experiencing hip hop music and 247 00:16:24,036 --> 00:16:27,356 Speaker 1: the records that were being made didn't reflect what it 248 00:16:27,436 --> 00:16:31,876 Speaker 1: actually was. So my earliest work was really just documenting 249 00:16:31,916 --> 00:16:35,356 Speaker 1: something that I was already a fan of and it 250 00:16:35,356 --> 00:16:37,836 Speaker 1: just didn't exist in the world, so I didn't really 251 00:16:37,836 --> 00:16:40,356 Speaker 1: have a choice. So when I do hear something that 252 00:16:40,396 --> 00:16:44,836 Speaker 1: I like, I get very excited because I'm always looking 253 00:16:44,836 --> 00:16:48,756 Speaker 1: for something that feels like a new way in Yes, 254 00:16:49,516 --> 00:16:52,636 Speaker 1: what you said there is something that I've often thought 255 00:16:52,676 --> 00:16:55,196 Speaker 1: that the things that influenced me most in terms of 256 00:16:55,676 --> 00:17:00,076 Speaker 1: actually making things are the things that I hear that 257 00:17:00,996 --> 00:17:05,196 Speaker 1: don't quite succeed where I listened to them. I think 258 00:17:05,756 --> 00:17:08,556 Speaker 1: that's a brilliant idea, And do you know what if 259 00:17:08,556 --> 00:17:12,436 Speaker 1: they had done this and that and this other thing 260 00:17:12,836 --> 00:17:15,436 Speaker 1: and left that bit out, that would be even better. 261 00:17:16,116 --> 00:17:19,676 Speaker 1: So quite often when I'm thinking like that about something, 262 00:17:19,996 --> 00:17:23,716 Speaker 1: I realize that I'm I'm inventing something new which isn't 263 00:17:23,756 --> 00:17:27,076 Speaker 1: that thing, but isn't something that I really had thought 264 00:17:27,116 --> 00:17:31,476 Speaker 1: about before either. So it's it's quite often hearing something 265 00:17:32,236 --> 00:17:35,916 Speaker 1: just missing the mark that makes me think that could 266 00:17:35,916 --> 00:17:39,876 Speaker 1: be better. That's been an important thread for me. Do 267 00:17:39,876 --> 00:17:42,996 Speaker 1: you find that if you look back, the most interesting 268 00:17:43,076 --> 00:17:45,836 Speaker 1: things have hit you that way, like when you first 269 00:17:45,916 --> 00:17:50,356 Speaker 1: hear something or see something, you don't know whether you 270 00:17:50,396 --> 00:17:52,356 Speaker 1: like it or not, or maybe it makes you laugh, 271 00:17:52,436 --> 00:17:55,796 Speaker 1: or it seems ridiculous or yes, but then you come 272 00:17:55,796 --> 00:18:01,316 Speaker 1: around to loving it or maybe loving it the most. Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. 273 00:18:01,836 --> 00:18:05,556 Speaker 1: I really admired the who I'd loved that, my generation 274 00:18:05,596 --> 00:18:09,276 Speaker 1: and things like that, And then they released a song 275 00:18:09,356 --> 00:18:14,236 Speaker 1: called Happy Jack. I thought they shouldn't release lightweight material 276 00:18:14,316 --> 00:18:18,636 Speaker 1: like this. They are a serious, revolutionary, radical band. What 277 00:18:18,756 --> 00:18:24,076 Speaker 1: are they doing releasing this kind of material? And I 278 00:18:24,116 --> 00:18:30,556 Speaker 1: even wrote to Pete Townsend saying saying, you shouldn't be 279 00:18:30,636 --> 00:18:36,156 Speaker 1: releasing stuff like this, You're much too important, or something 280 00:18:36,316 --> 00:18:40,996 Speaker 1: to that effect. And it was about three or four 281 00:18:41,036 --> 00:18:44,236 Speaker 1: months later that I suddenly got it that this was 282 00:18:44,276 --> 00:18:47,276 Speaker 1: a kind of pop art. So that's one example of 283 00:18:47,316 --> 00:18:50,636 Speaker 1: something where I had a real change of mind. And 284 00:18:51,636 --> 00:18:54,876 Speaker 1: I've had more of those in painting than in music. 285 00:18:55,276 --> 00:19:00,836 Speaker 1: In music, I kind of very often have a pretty 286 00:19:00,836 --> 00:19:04,196 Speaker 1: good feeling of what is about to happen. I don't 287 00:19:04,196 --> 00:19:08,916 Speaker 1: mean that I could make it, but I'm not incredibly 288 00:19:09,196 --> 00:19:13,476 Speaker 1: prized by it. For instance, I remember saying to David Byrne, 289 00:19:14,076 --> 00:19:16,916 Speaker 1: we were in a car in Los Angeles in nineteen 290 00:19:16,996 --> 00:19:20,716 Speaker 1: eighty and I said, I think there is going to 291 00:19:20,796 --> 00:19:24,996 Speaker 1: be a kind of music where people kind of shout 292 00:19:25,116 --> 00:19:31,796 Speaker 1: poetry over beats. And indeed there was. It wasn't entirely 293 00:19:32,556 --> 00:19:40,156 Speaker 1: an unscripted idea. I'd heard something on MPR. It was 294 00:19:40,476 --> 00:19:46,236 Speaker 1: a poet, a black poet from somewhere in America, reading 295 00:19:46,276 --> 00:19:51,436 Speaker 1: this poem called Cadillac. I spent years trying to find 296 00:19:51,476 --> 00:19:53,956 Speaker 1: this thing. I never found it. I wrote to MPR 297 00:19:54,076 --> 00:19:56,676 Speaker 1: and I phoned them up and everything. It was called 298 00:19:56,716 --> 00:20:01,396 Speaker 1: Pink Cadillac. And he just did this amazing, very rhythmic 299 00:20:01,476 --> 00:20:05,236 Speaker 1: poem about how he wanted a pink Cadillac and how 300 00:20:05,276 --> 00:20:08,156 Speaker 1: cool it was and how it turned rounded the corner 301 00:20:08,196 --> 00:20:10,996 Speaker 1: and things like that. And I thought, this is a 302 00:20:11,236 --> 00:20:15,276 Speaker 1: new kind of music. I mean, I had I knew 303 00:20:15,276 --> 00:20:18,716 Speaker 1: about the last poets. They they were sort of in 304 00:20:18,796 --> 00:20:20,916 Speaker 1: the back of my mind as well. But I just 305 00:20:20,996 --> 00:20:25,476 Speaker 1: suddenly had this vision of a popular music, not a 306 00:20:25,556 --> 00:20:27,956 Speaker 1: music that would only be on NPR, but a popular 307 00:20:28,036 --> 00:20:31,636 Speaker 1: music that people would want to hear, that had heavy 308 00:20:31,676 --> 00:20:39,756 Speaker 1: beats and speech, not songs. Was the pink Cadillac piece 309 00:20:39,796 --> 00:20:41,436 Speaker 1: that you heard, did it have a beat or was 310 00:20:41,436 --> 00:20:44,716 Speaker 1: it a cappella? I think it was a cappella or 311 00:20:45,316 --> 00:20:47,996 Speaker 1: just had a very I can't remember it very well now. 312 00:20:48,356 --> 00:20:52,236 Speaker 1: In fact, I only heard it that once. It just 313 00:20:52,636 --> 00:20:55,076 Speaker 1: stuck in my mind, and I can still remember the 314 00:20:55,196 --> 00:20:58,076 Speaker 1: cadence of some of it. And there may have just 315 00:20:58,156 --> 00:21:06,436 Speaker 1: been a you know, that pink callac that kind of 316 00:21:06,476 --> 00:21:08,836 Speaker 1: feeling to it, you know, and I thought, yeah, that 317 00:21:08,996 --> 00:21:12,476 Speaker 1: is definitely new. We'll be right back after a quick 318 00:21:12,516 --> 00:21:18,476 Speaker 1: break with more from Brian Enow. We're back with more 319 00:21:18,516 --> 00:21:21,916 Speaker 1: from Rick Rubin and Brian Eno. Can you remember any 320 00:21:21,956 --> 00:21:26,676 Speaker 1: other forms of music that either do or don't yet 321 00:21:26,756 --> 00:21:31,556 Speaker 1: exist that you've imagined. Yes, there's one that has just 322 00:21:31,716 --> 00:21:35,116 Speaker 1: come into existence, I think, and it's something that I 323 00:21:35,196 --> 00:21:37,956 Speaker 1: have been sort of playing around with. Do you know 324 00:21:38,036 --> 00:21:42,356 Speaker 1: this listening practice? I don't really know what to call 325 00:21:42,396 --> 00:21:45,156 Speaker 1: it exactly. I could call it music, but I'm not 326 00:21:45,236 --> 00:21:48,236 Speaker 1: sure this is the right word for it. It's called 327 00:21:48,276 --> 00:21:52,996 Speaker 1: as mr H. This is where people are listening very 328 00:21:53,036 --> 00:21:57,636 Speaker 1: close up. Noisest like this, and there's lots of smacking 329 00:21:57,716 --> 00:22:05,316 Speaker 1: lips and that kind of thing. And basically people tell 330 00:22:05,796 --> 00:22:09,516 Speaker 1: quite long stories, but they're hardly stories. It's about that sound, 331 00:22:09,556 --> 00:22:13,036 Speaker 1: and they often use stereo microphones so they can move 332 00:22:13,356 --> 00:22:15,796 Speaker 1: their voices from one from one of your ears to 333 00:22:15,836 --> 00:22:19,196 Speaker 1: the other and back and forth. It's very, very interesting 334 00:22:19,276 --> 00:22:23,636 Speaker 1: because these are quite long pieces, and just go on 335 00:22:23,756 --> 00:22:26,796 Speaker 1: YouTube and have a look. They've got millions and millions 336 00:22:26,796 --> 00:22:29,516 Speaker 1: of listeners, so there's a lot of people doing this. 337 00:22:30,156 --> 00:22:34,236 Speaker 1: So I heard these first of all, I think three 338 00:22:34,276 --> 00:22:36,836 Speaker 1: or four years ago. I heard the first ones and thought, 339 00:22:36,876 --> 00:22:41,596 Speaker 1: this is really interesting. This is like having somebody wandering 340 00:22:41,596 --> 00:22:45,996 Speaker 1: around inside your head whispering to you. And I thought, 341 00:22:46,636 --> 00:22:49,636 Speaker 1: this is kind of a night. It's like ambient music. Actually, 342 00:22:50,316 --> 00:22:54,036 Speaker 1: there's a sort of diminution of content in favor of sound. 343 00:22:54,636 --> 00:22:59,156 Speaker 1: So it's a kind of live of the moment sound 344 00:22:59,236 --> 00:23:02,876 Speaker 1: experience that doesn't really have a past or a future. 345 00:23:03,276 --> 00:23:07,716 Speaker 1: You know. It's not what philosophers called teleological. It doesn't 346 00:23:08,676 --> 00:23:12,996 Speaker 1: doesn't go somewhere, it doesn't have a goal. It's a 347 00:23:13,076 --> 00:23:16,516 Speaker 1: steady state experience. And this, of course is what I 348 00:23:16,556 --> 00:23:19,196 Speaker 1: always wanted ambient music to be. Like a like a 349 00:23:19,236 --> 00:23:22,116 Speaker 1: picture on the wall. You don't expect it to change 350 00:23:22,116 --> 00:23:25,756 Speaker 1: all the time. What changes is you, the listener. The 351 00:23:26,156 --> 00:23:30,516 Speaker 1: art stays relatively still. So I heard this as mr 352 00:23:30,596 --> 00:23:34,476 Speaker 1: Stuff and thought, this is a kind of ambient music, 353 00:23:34,916 --> 00:23:42,236 Speaker 1: And I thought, what about making music that is vocal music? 354 00:23:42,556 --> 00:23:45,716 Speaker 1: But like that, I had never really thought about ambient 355 00:23:45,796 --> 00:23:49,716 Speaker 1: music being vocal before then. In fact, it was for 356 00:23:49,796 --> 00:23:54,556 Speaker 1: me specifically not vocal. It was a sort of deliberately 357 00:23:54,676 --> 00:23:58,436 Speaker 1: personality free music. And putting a voice in there to 358 00:23:58,516 --> 00:24:00,956 Speaker 1: me was to say to draw all the attention to 359 00:24:01,076 --> 00:24:04,996 Speaker 1: the voice and say, oh, here's somebody with something to 360 00:24:05,036 --> 00:24:08,556 Speaker 1: tell you, And I really didn't want that. But then 361 00:24:08,596 --> 00:24:12,196 Speaker 1: when I heard this ASMR, I thought, this person clearly 362 00:24:12,236 --> 00:24:15,516 Speaker 1: has nothing to tell me at all. They're talking about 363 00:24:15,516 --> 00:24:20,636 Speaker 1: how they comb their hair and doing it for twenty 364 00:24:20,636 --> 00:24:25,156 Speaker 1: five minutes. Clearly the message is not about combing hair. 365 00:24:25,276 --> 00:24:28,996 Speaker 1: The message is about being inside a voice for a 366 00:24:28,996 --> 00:24:34,876 Speaker 1: decent length of time. So I started to think, what 367 00:24:35,076 --> 00:24:39,716 Speaker 1: would you do to existing music to make it occupy 368 00:24:39,836 --> 00:24:44,996 Speaker 1: that same space, And then I started experimenting with my 369 00:24:45,076 --> 00:24:47,636 Speaker 1: favorite tool of all in the studio, which is the 370 00:24:47,676 --> 00:24:51,116 Speaker 1: low pass filter. Just taking off all the high frequency 371 00:24:51,516 --> 00:24:56,516 Speaker 1: of things has an amazing psychological effect to me. It 372 00:24:56,556 --> 00:25:05,156 Speaker 1: creates scale, distance, warmth, and a weird sort of intimacy, 373 00:25:05,236 --> 00:25:09,556 Speaker 1: which is quite strange, I think because you know, missing 374 00:25:09,556 --> 00:25:13,756 Speaker 1: a lot of detail. Your brain very actively engages with 375 00:25:13,796 --> 00:25:16,756 Speaker 1: those kinds of sounds. That's my theory about why it's 376 00:25:16,956 --> 00:25:22,676 Speaker 1: interesting anyway, So I started thinking, perhaps there could be 377 00:25:22,676 --> 00:25:27,476 Speaker 1: a kind of music like that where we take existing songs, 378 00:25:27,556 --> 00:25:31,756 Speaker 1: you know, a Rihannah record, or and we just put 379 00:25:31,796 --> 00:25:34,716 Speaker 1: it through a low pass filter, but really a really 380 00:25:34,836 --> 00:25:38,916 Speaker 1: radical low pass filter. So nothing above say two hundred 381 00:25:38,916 --> 00:25:44,236 Speaker 1: and fifty hurts is audible. If you listen to a 382 00:25:44,236 --> 00:25:49,156 Speaker 1: Beyonce record through a wall, it's not exhausting, it's warm. 383 00:25:49,996 --> 00:25:53,756 Speaker 1: So about a week ago somebody said to me, oh, 384 00:25:53,796 --> 00:25:57,956 Speaker 1: have you heard this new as Mr Music thing, and 385 00:25:58,076 --> 00:26:03,156 Speaker 1: described exactly that same experiment. So it's like you're listening 386 00:26:03,156 --> 00:26:07,076 Speaker 1: to records that are being played in another room. So 387 00:26:07,156 --> 00:26:15,516 Speaker 1: you just have that sort of comforting. You can't really 388 00:26:15,596 --> 00:26:20,316 Speaker 1: figure out what it is, but it's sociable somehow, it's friendly. 389 00:26:20,636 --> 00:26:26,076 Speaker 1: It's like having other people around. It's like a daydream almost. Yes, yes, yes, 390 00:26:26,516 --> 00:26:29,276 Speaker 1: that's a good way of saying it. Yeah, sounds fantastic. 391 00:26:30,316 --> 00:26:34,156 Speaker 1: On the other side of that, are lyrics ever important 392 00:26:34,196 --> 00:26:38,876 Speaker 1: to you? They're very rarely the thing I'm most listening 393 00:26:38,876 --> 00:26:45,356 Speaker 1: to in music. I think the base requirement for me 394 00:26:46,236 --> 00:26:49,116 Speaker 1: in lyrics is that they don't make the music stupid, 395 00:26:50,276 --> 00:26:52,556 Speaker 1: which turns out to be quite a high bar in 396 00:26:52,676 --> 00:26:56,676 Speaker 1: many cats Now people say do up lyrics are stupid, 397 00:26:56,716 --> 00:26:59,116 Speaker 1: but I don't think they are at all. They serve 398 00:26:59,196 --> 00:27:03,996 Speaker 1: the music absolutely. Do up lyrics are the way of 399 00:27:04,036 --> 00:27:07,916 Speaker 1: making a voice become musical. What is always awkward to 400 00:27:07,956 --> 00:27:11,436 Speaker 1: me is when somebody feels they have something to say 401 00:27:11,676 --> 00:27:16,916 Speaker 1: and it's important and you get these clumsy pieces of 402 00:27:16,956 --> 00:27:20,756 Speaker 1: scanning and the rhymes don't sound stupid, and so I 403 00:27:21,356 --> 00:27:24,516 Speaker 1: can't bear that. I'd rather just leave out the voice 404 00:27:24,556 --> 00:27:27,796 Speaker 1: completely than have that. But I mean, there are lyricists 405 00:27:27,796 --> 00:27:32,596 Speaker 1: who I absolutely adore, like I always say Joni Mitchell, 406 00:27:32,636 --> 00:27:36,236 Speaker 1: who's for me, one of the greatest songwriters of all time, 407 00:27:36,916 --> 00:27:43,596 Speaker 1: and her lyrics are so clever and intricate and always 408 00:27:43,636 --> 00:27:46,596 Speaker 1: worth returning to that I'm always hearing new things in 409 00:27:47,476 --> 00:27:51,676 Speaker 1: her singing and new interpretations of what she's saying. And 410 00:27:51,716 --> 00:27:54,796 Speaker 1: there are a few people like that, very very few 411 00:27:55,756 --> 00:27:58,956 Speaker 1: whose work I actually do really want to know. The 412 00:27:59,076 --> 00:28:02,436 Speaker 1: lyrics of where do you think the line is between 413 00:28:02,596 --> 00:28:07,836 Speaker 1: sounds and music? It's where that line is is actually 414 00:28:07,876 --> 00:28:11,996 Speaker 1: one of the things I've thought about most in thinking 415 00:28:12,036 --> 00:28:15,436 Speaker 1: about music, I had an accident years and years ago 416 00:28:15,516 --> 00:28:19,196 Speaker 1: where I was confined to bed for a while and 417 00:28:19,396 --> 00:28:22,396 Speaker 1: one afternoon, a rainy afternoon, a friend of mine came 418 00:28:22,436 --> 00:28:26,476 Speaker 1: over and I said, as she left, I said, can 419 00:28:26,476 --> 00:28:28,756 Speaker 1: you just put a record on for me? This is 420 00:28:28,916 --> 00:28:30,836 Speaker 1: I had a record player, but it wasn't close to 421 00:28:30,836 --> 00:28:34,036 Speaker 1: the bed, so she put this record on. It was 422 00:28:34,076 --> 00:28:37,796 Speaker 1: a record of Welsh harp music, and she just put 423 00:28:37,796 --> 00:28:40,756 Speaker 1: the needle on. She left, and it was actually very quiet, 424 00:28:40,796 --> 00:28:43,356 Speaker 1: but I couldn't get up to change the volume, and 425 00:28:43,476 --> 00:28:48,356 Speaker 1: the rain was beating down outside, and I suddenly had 426 00:28:48,396 --> 00:28:54,156 Speaker 1: this realization that I loved the fact that the music 427 00:28:54,236 --> 00:28:58,196 Speaker 1: seemed to be arising out of the rain. It wasn't 428 00:28:58,316 --> 00:29:01,476 Speaker 1: on top of the rain. Sometimes it was submerged by 429 00:29:01,516 --> 00:29:04,636 Speaker 1: the rain. But these notes, the loudest notes, were appearing 430 00:29:04,636 --> 00:29:07,316 Speaker 1: out of the rain, and I thought, how lovely to 431 00:29:07,436 --> 00:29:10,236 Speaker 1: co opt the surroundings to become part of the music. 432 00:29:11,236 --> 00:29:16,276 Speaker 1: So this was in nineteen seventy four, I think or five. 433 00:29:16,676 --> 00:29:18,876 Speaker 1: So I started thinking, what about if you made a 434 00:29:18,956 --> 00:29:22,516 Speaker 1: kind of music that didn't have a hard edge to it, 435 00:29:22,556 --> 00:29:26,636 Speaker 1: that didn't have a hard boundary, that wasn't done so 436 00:29:26,676 --> 00:29:29,276 Speaker 1: that you knew that that was a musical sound and 437 00:29:29,316 --> 00:29:34,356 Speaker 1: that everything else was just random everyday noise. I thought, 438 00:29:34,356 --> 00:29:37,036 Speaker 1: what about softening the edges of the music so that 439 00:29:37,076 --> 00:29:41,036 Speaker 1: you include some things that could be noise outside of 440 00:29:41,036 --> 00:29:44,396 Speaker 1: the music. That could be the street, or the rain, 441 00:29:44,556 --> 00:29:47,156 Speaker 1: or the wind or something like that. So I started 442 00:29:47,236 --> 00:29:51,916 Speaker 1: building in this sort of where ambient music started coming from, 443 00:29:52,316 --> 00:29:54,756 Speaker 1: was this idea of making music that had a soft 444 00:29:54,876 --> 00:29:58,676 Speaker 1: edge that blended into the rest of the world. So 445 00:29:58,796 --> 00:30:02,956 Speaker 1: this idea of saying, let's make the edge soft so 446 00:30:02,996 --> 00:30:06,396 Speaker 1: that the music can invite in more of the rest 447 00:30:06,396 --> 00:30:09,236 Speaker 1: of the world. It draws it in and that becomes 448 00:30:09,236 --> 00:30:13,716 Speaker 1: part of the composition as well. And I think this 449 00:30:13,796 --> 00:30:16,556 Speaker 1: was at the time I was starting to think about 450 00:30:16,676 --> 00:30:22,276 Speaker 1: messiness as well, that I didn't want the work to 451 00:30:22,396 --> 00:30:27,196 Speaker 1: be sort of in a little capsule, tidily closed off 452 00:30:27,236 --> 00:30:28,996 Speaker 1: from the rest of the world. I wanted it to 453 00:30:29,116 --> 00:30:32,756 Speaker 1: feel like it was somehow connected to it that it 454 00:30:32,836 --> 00:30:35,316 Speaker 1: bled into the rest of the world. What did you 455 00:30:35,396 --> 00:30:37,436 Speaker 1: look like at the time at that point in time, 456 00:30:37,876 --> 00:30:41,756 Speaker 1: how were you dressing. I think I still had long hair, 457 00:30:42,756 --> 00:30:46,836 Speaker 1: I was still wearing makeup. I think then, yeah, mid seventies. 458 00:30:46,836 --> 00:30:53,436 Speaker 1: I was, yes, and I wore a lot of unusual clothes. 459 00:30:55,356 --> 00:30:59,236 Speaker 1: I'm just wondering, like, how the just the justa positions, 460 00:30:59,276 --> 00:31:02,116 Speaker 1: you know, it's like the person who's dressed like that 461 00:31:02,316 --> 00:31:04,876 Speaker 1: making the music that you don't look at or don't 462 00:31:04,876 --> 00:31:08,836 Speaker 1: pay attention to. It's it's really interesting. Now, you're absolutely right, 463 00:31:08,916 --> 00:31:13,476 Speaker 1: it's sort of inconsistent. And it became clearer to me 464 00:31:13,556 --> 00:31:19,156 Speaker 1: that they were inconsistent that my physical appearance was saying 465 00:31:19,316 --> 00:31:23,396 Speaker 1: look at me, but my musical output was saying it's nothing. 466 00:31:23,676 --> 00:31:26,676 Speaker 1: It's just a tint. It's just an atmosphere, you know, 467 00:31:26,956 --> 00:31:30,276 Speaker 1: no big deal, carry on with your life. And maybe 468 00:31:30,316 --> 00:31:34,116 Speaker 1: that was again looking for the balance. Yes, yes, you 469 00:31:34,116 --> 00:31:36,756 Speaker 1: know the art was looking for the balance, and yep, 470 00:31:36,876 --> 00:31:40,556 Speaker 1: I never thought of that. That's very very likely true. 471 00:31:41,036 --> 00:31:45,316 Speaker 1: From about the late seventies on, I started to not 472 00:31:45,396 --> 00:31:48,756 Speaker 1: want to be a pop star, and really that was 473 00:31:49,276 --> 00:31:52,636 Speaker 1: that was because I thought it was misleading people. You know, 474 00:31:52,716 --> 00:31:56,756 Speaker 1: if if the whole thing is about me, that's actually 475 00:31:56,756 --> 00:31:59,716 Speaker 1: not a very interesting subject. To be honest, I'm not 476 00:31:59,716 --> 00:32:02,956 Speaker 1: a boring person or anything like that, but I didn't 477 00:32:02,996 --> 00:32:08,596 Speaker 1: think that my personality was the thing that I had 478 00:32:08,636 --> 00:32:14,796 Speaker 1: to offer the world. Yeah, that you saw larger issues, yes, exactly, 479 00:32:15,156 --> 00:32:17,756 Speaker 1: like what is the edge? What is the edge of art? 480 00:32:18,956 --> 00:32:22,236 Speaker 1: That was the issue that really interested me. I think, 481 00:32:22,836 --> 00:32:25,236 Speaker 1: what do we call art? And why where do we 482 00:32:25,316 --> 00:32:28,676 Speaker 1: draw the boundary? And what do we what do we 483 00:32:28,716 --> 00:32:31,716 Speaker 1: mean by art anyway? You know, for me, the most 484 00:32:31,756 --> 00:32:36,796 Speaker 1: interesting question for a long long time has been why 485 00:32:36,836 --> 00:32:39,236 Speaker 1: do we want to make art at all? And why 486 00:32:39,276 --> 00:32:41,836 Speaker 1: do we want to listen to it? I mean, it's 487 00:32:41,836 --> 00:32:48,676 Speaker 1: an incredibly deep question. Why do we like music? Why? 488 00:32:48,756 --> 00:32:50,676 Speaker 1: You know, if you think about it, what is music? 489 00:32:50,716 --> 00:32:54,716 Speaker 1: It's a kind of arrangement of noises. But you know, 490 00:32:54,756 --> 00:32:58,196 Speaker 1: we have incredibly strong feelings about them. If you said 491 00:32:58,196 --> 00:33:01,036 Speaker 1: to a Martian who just landed on Earth, you played 492 00:33:01,036 --> 00:33:05,956 Speaker 1: them four string quartets. You know, there's Shostakovich, there's a Brahms, 493 00:33:06,116 --> 00:33:09,796 Speaker 1: there's whatever else, and then there's one done by a computer, 494 00:33:09,916 --> 00:33:13,876 Speaker 1: and there's one played by a group of talentless fourteen 495 00:33:13,956 --> 00:33:17,276 Speaker 1: year olds who've just got those instruments. And you said, 496 00:33:17,476 --> 00:33:20,556 Speaker 1: what's the difference between those? They probably say, well, there's 497 00:33:20,596 --> 00:33:24,676 Speaker 1: no difference. They all sound exactly the same. But we 498 00:33:24,756 --> 00:33:29,436 Speaker 1: are hearing very very very fine distinctions between these things. 499 00:33:29,756 --> 00:33:36,076 Speaker 1: We obviously care about and value these experiences in quite 500 00:33:36,116 --> 00:33:40,756 Speaker 1: intense ways. And since I was about seventeen, I've been 501 00:33:40,796 --> 00:33:44,316 Speaker 1: thinking about this question, what are we doing it for? 502 00:33:45,356 --> 00:33:50,156 Speaker 1: What are we hearing? Why does it matter? We clearly 503 00:33:50,196 --> 00:33:53,636 Speaker 1: can live without music, It's not like food. We can't 504 00:33:53,676 --> 00:33:56,396 Speaker 1: live without food, and we can't live without clothes, and 505 00:33:56,436 --> 00:33:59,996 Speaker 1: we can't live without communicating with other human beings. And 506 00:34:00,316 --> 00:34:02,116 Speaker 1: there are all sorts of things we have to do. 507 00:34:02,916 --> 00:34:06,156 Speaker 1: Music isn't one of them, Painting isn't one of them, Sculpture, 508 00:34:06,396 --> 00:34:08,996 Speaker 1: none of those things that we call arts a thing 509 00:34:09,276 --> 00:34:12,316 Speaker 1: that we have to do. So why are we doing them? 510 00:34:12,356 --> 00:34:15,236 Speaker 1: And why is it so universal? We don't know of 511 00:34:15,276 --> 00:34:19,196 Speaker 1: a culture that doesn't have music, Well, then then I'm 512 00:34:19,236 --> 00:34:21,676 Speaker 1: not sure that we don't have to do it. If 513 00:34:21,756 --> 00:34:25,356 Speaker 1: that's well, yes, yes, of course, I mean it's it's 514 00:34:25,636 --> 00:34:30,596 Speaker 1: it's not functional in terms of survival. It doesn't seem 515 00:34:30,676 --> 00:34:34,316 Speaker 1: we have never tried the experiment to take it away, 516 00:34:34,556 --> 00:34:39,156 Speaker 1: but it seems to have some ability to allow us 517 00:34:39,236 --> 00:34:45,276 Speaker 1: to feel or understand ourselves. The music isn't what's important. 518 00:34:45,596 --> 00:34:49,356 Speaker 1: It's the reaction that's important. Yes, exactly, it's what is 519 00:34:49,356 --> 00:34:53,156 Speaker 1: happening to us. Yeah, I imagine it when we tap 520 00:34:53,276 --> 00:34:57,436 Speaker 1: into that in art, it makes us also feel less alone, 521 00:34:58,116 --> 00:35:02,436 Speaker 1: not even that someone made it. But there's something out 522 00:35:02,476 --> 00:35:05,756 Speaker 1: there that resonates with me, even if it's the paint. Yes, 523 00:35:05,996 --> 00:35:12,516 Speaker 1: I'm not this this thing that doesn't understand itself. Here's 524 00:35:12,596 --> 00:35:16,916 Speaker 1: something that is being reflected back that resonates with me. 525 00:35:17,756 --> 00:35:20,756 Speaker 1: I feel a connections that it's maybe it's like love, 526 00:35:20,956 --> 00:35:24,116 Speaker 1: might be like love. Now, I think this is such 527 00:35:24,156 --> 00:35:28,036 Speaker 1: an important point that the thing that binds communities together 528 00:35:28,556 --> 00:35:32,036 Speaker 1: is shared culture, and it's for exactly that reason. I 529 00:35:32,076 --> 00:35:35,236 Speaker 1: think it's the knowledge that there are a group of 530 00:35:35,276 --> 00:35:38,676 Speaker 1: other people who have these same feelings. You might not 531 00:35:38,756 --> 00:35:41,396 Speaker 1: even be able to articulate them. But you know, I 532 00:35:41,396 --> 00:35:45,156 Speaker 1: can remember this so strongly from when I was young, 533 00:35:45,276 --> 00:35:50,276 Speaker 1: that you defined yourself almost by the set of feelings 534 00:35:50,356 --> 00:35:54,756 Speaker 1: that you responded to. So, for instance, I remember it 535 00:35:54,996 --> 00:35:57,876 Speaker 1: there was a time when you were either a Beatles 536 00:35:57,916 --> 00:36:02,516 Speaker 1: fan or a Rolling Stones fan, and they were fundamentally different. 537 00:36:03,236 --> 00:36:06,956 Speaker 1: They talked about a different kind of person. You know, 538 00:36:07,356 --> 00:36:09,156 Speaker 1: doesn't matter that in the end day all in it 539 00:36:09,316 --> 00:36:14,156 Speaker 1: up millionaires and it doesn't matter, it's not important. What 540 00:36:14,236 --> 00:36:18,956 Speaker 1: was important was that they presented these two different pictures 541 00:36:18,956 --> 00:36:22,556 Speaker 1: of the kinds of feelings that were appropriate to have 542 00:36:22,676 --> 00:36:26,396 Speaker 1: about the world, and crossing over from one to the 543 00:36:26,436 --> 00:36:31,796 Speaker 1: other was a big decision. I can remember people having 544 00:36:31,956 --> 00:36:36,436 Speaker 1: real sort of identity crises about they were finding starting 545 00:36:36,436 --> 00:36:39,636 Speaker 1: to find the Stones more exciting than the Beatles, and 546 00:36:39,716 --> 00:36:41,436 Speaker 1: in fact they were starting to find the Beatles a 547 00:36:41,476 --> 00:36:45,396 Speaker 1: bit sort of whimpy, or vice versa. Actually as well, 548 00:36:45,396 --> 00:36:48,476 Speaker 1: it happened both ways. So I think you're right that 549 00:36:48,556 --> 00:36:53,036 Speaker 1: you you tap into a sort of community of feelings 550 00:36:53,076 --> 00:36:57,596 Speaker 1: and the sense that there are other people who value 551 00:36:57,876 --> 00:37:00,876 Speaker 1: the same feelings that I value. That's sort of what 552 00:37:00,916 --> 00:37:04,916 Speaker 1: it's about. Really, It's about saying these feelings have value 553 00:37:04,956 --> 00:37:08,756 Speaker 1: for me, and there's a lot of others that don't. Yeah, 554 00:37:09,236 --> 00:37:12,796 Speaker 1: there's also a great feeling in finding a new piece 555 00:37:12,796 --> 00:37:17,276 Speaker 1: of art and sharing it with someone and enjoying it 556 00:37:17,316 --> 00:37:20,796 Speaker 1: together is different than enjoying it yourself. There's a real 557 00:37:21,196 --> 00:37:27,036 Speaker 1: sense of community in enjoying something that you know, we 558 00:37:27,196 --> 00:37:31,076 Speaker 1: enjoy this, but maybe maybe many people don't, and that's fine. Yes, 559 00:37:31,316 --> 00:37:34,356 Speaker 1: it's a great feeling of connection, and maybe that's maybe 560 00:37:34,396 --> 00:37:38,436 Speaker 1: that's the greatest feeling of connection, is the feeling of 561 00:37:38,156 --> 00:37:45,596 Speaker 1: these shared responses to stimuli. Yes, and incidentally, I think 562 00:37:45,676 --> 00:37:50,716 Speaker 1: that's the that's the power of religion as well. The 563 00:37:50,836 --> 00:37:56,116 Speaker 1: power of religion is not the connection with God, but 564 00:37:56,236 --> 00:37:58,556 Speaker 1: the connection with the rest of the congregation. I think 565 00:37:59,076 --> 00:38:02,836 Speaker 1: the connection with all of the people who also believe 566 00:38:02,876 --> 00:38:06,836 Speaker 1: in that particular story. I'm not really religious myself, but 567 00:38:07,476 --> 00:38:13,876 Speaker 1: I really respond to that idea. You know, I got 568 00:38:13,916 --> 00:38:17,476 Speaker 1: into gospel music very young. In fact, when I came 569 00:38:17,516 --> 00:38:20,876 Speaker 1: to America, I was by then a big gospel fan. 570 00:38:21,956 --> 00:38:25,716 Speaker 1: And what surprised me was that all my hip friends 571 00:38:26,596 --> 00:38:30,676 Speaker 1: thought it was quite embarrassing if they found a little 572 00:38:30,676 --> 00:38:35,436 Speaker 1: bit a quaint or something that I liked gospel music. 573 00:38:35,556 --> 00:38:38,556 Speaker 1: To me, it was just like Dooop had been. It 574 00:38:38,596 --> 00:38:44,436 Speaker 1: was this amazing, exotic foreign music, and it really came 575 00:38:44,516 --> 00:38:46,996 Speaker 1: straight through to me. We're going to take a quick 576 00:38:47,036 --> 00:38:49,716 Speaker 1: break and then we'll be back with more from Briany. 577 00:38:49,756 --> 00:38:56,316 Speaker 1: Now we're back with the rest of Rick Rubin's conversation 578 00:38:56,636 --> 00:39:00,276 Speaker 1: with Briany. Now, I've heard the story before of the 579 00:39:00,356 --> 00:39:06,756 Speaker 1: moment of recognition or the need for what became ambient 580 00:39:06,836 --> 00:39:10,836 Speaker 1: music based on the Cologne airport. Sitting in the Colone airport, 581 00:39:11,476 --> 00:39:13,596 Speaker 1: how might it have been different if it would have 582 00:39:13,636 --> 00:39:16,876 Speaker 1: happened in a natural space as opposed to a man 583 00:39:16,916 --> 00:39:21,516 Speaker 1: made space. Well, the question really is would it have 584 00:39:21,636 --> 00:39:24,676 Speaker 1: even occurred to me if I was in a natural space. 585 00:39:25,036 --> 00:39:27,316 Speaker 1: I'm not sure that it would have done. It was 586 00:39:27,636 --> 00:39:33,236 Speaker 1: because I was in an incredibly carefully manufactured space, beautiful 587 00:39:33,276 --> 00:39:37,996 Speaker 1: airport where the architects had really looked at every detail, 588 00:39:38,076 --> 00:39:40,436 Speaker 1: and the light was beautiful and the lines of the 589 00:39:40,476 --> 00:39:45,156 Speaker 1: place were beautiful, and somebody in the cafe had put 590 00:39:45,196 --> 00:39:49,996 Speaker 1: on a cassette of German disco music which was ringing 591 00:39:50,036 --> 00:39:53,316 Speaker 1: through the airport. I mean, I wasn't postmodern enough at 592 00:39:53,316 --> 00:39:57,076 Speaker 1: the time to accept that. I just thought, that's not right. 593 00:39:57,716 --> 00:40:01,076 Speaker 1: That part hasn't been thought about. Everything else has been 594 00:40:01,076 --> 00:40:05,596 Speaker 1: thought about, but nobody's thought about that. Now. It was 595 00:40:05,596 --> 00:40:07,876 Speaker 1: a beautiful day and the airport was nearly empty, and 596 00:40:07,916 --> 00:40:10,476 Speaker 1: I was sitting there bathe in light, and it was 597 00:40:10,516 --> 00:40:12,916 Speaker 1: one of those cases like we were talking about earlier, 598 00:40:12,916 --> 00:40:15,636 Speaker 1: where you think I wish there was another kind of 599 00:40:15,756 --> 00:40:19,756 Speaker 1: music for this situation, and I started thinking, so what 600 00:40:19,836 --> 00:40:23,036 Speaker 1: would that be? Like? You know, it's an airport, so 601 00:40:23,156 --> 00:40:27,396 Speaker 1: you can't be too loud. Obviously, people have to hear announcements. 602 00:40:28,316 --> 00:40:31,756 Speaker 1: It has to be interruptible for the same reason it 603 00:40:31,836 --> 00:40:35,596 Speaker 1: shouldn't dominate the vocal register, because people need to communicate. 604 00:40:36,556 --> 00:40:38,916 Speaker 1: So I just was sort of thinking this out, and 605 00:40:39,916 --> 00:40:42,476 Speaker 1: quite soon I thought, right, I think I know what 606 00:40:42,596 --> 00:40:45,436 Speaker 1: I could make that music. I know how I could 607 00:40:45,436 --> 00:40:48,956 Speaker 1: do that. And that's how that first ambient record came about. 608 00:40:49,116 --> 00:40:51,956 Speaker 1: I mean, it wasn't unprecedented. I had been working on 609 00:40:52,076 --> 00:40:55,196 Speaker 1: music a little bit like that before, but I suddenly 610 00:40:55,236 --> 00:40:58,916 Speaker 1: realized what its role in life could be. If you like, 611 00:40:59,476 --> 00:41:02,036 Speaker 1: what the place of this music could be. I knew 612 00:41:02,076 --> 00:41:07,516 Speaker 1: it wasn't dance music. I knew it wasn't radio music. 613 00:41:08,116 --> 00:41:11,476 Speaker 1: It was functional, but I hadn't yet discovered the function. 614 00:41:11,516 --> 00:41:13,916 Speaker 1: It was then that I thought, I know what this 615 00:41:14,036 --> 00:41:17,996 Speaker 1: music could be for. Might there be other forms of 616 00:41:18,036 --> 00:41:23,596 Speaker 1: ambient music for different use cases? Yes, I did a 617 00:41:23,676 --> 00:41:29,596 Speaker 1: record called Narrowly. The subtitle was Music for Thinking. That 618 00:41:29,676 --> 00:41:32,436 Speaker 1: really came out of a response. Well, first of all, 619 00:41:32,516 --> 00:41:37,956 Speaker 1: hearing from a lot of particularly artists and graphic designers 620 00:41:37,956 --> 00:41:40,716 Speaker 1: that they liked having my music playing when they were working. 621 00:41:41,476 --> 00:41:46,876 Speaker 1: They didn't want conventional records which kept stopping and starting 622 00:41:46,876 --> 00:41:50,356 Speaker 1: and the mood changing, and they were there was lyrics 623 00:41:50,356 --> 00:41:53,116 Speaker 1: and they were kind of annoying. They didn't want classical 624 00:41:53,196 --> 00:41:57,356 Speaker 1: music because it sort of felt too old. They liked 625 00:41:57,396 --> 00:42:01,916 Speaker 1: this music that had this sort of directionless, atmospheric quality. 626 00:42:02,516 --> 00:42:07,276 Speaker 1: So I thought, oh, good, so it's working. It's working functionally. 627 00:42:08,396 --> 00:42:11,516 Speaker 1: So I thought, so what about when you want to 628 00:42:11,556 --> 00:42:16,636 Speaker 1: sit and concentrate on something, You want to have something 629 00:42:16,676 --> 00:42:19,756 Speaker 1: that kind of calms the world down a little bit 630 00:42:19,796 --> 00:42:24,836 Speaker 1: around you, that softens, as Eric Sati said, softens the 631 00:42:25,556 --> 00:42:28,996 Speaker 1: clink of fork against dinner plate or something like that. 632 00:42:29,276 --> 00:42:32,436 Speaker 1: I forget the quote exactly, but you want something that 633 00:42:33,116 --> 00:42:36,956 Speaker 1: is sort of a slight barrier to the noises of 634 00:42:36,956 --> 00:42:40,796 Speaker 1: the world, and it becomes a barrier by sucking them 635 00:42:40,836 --> 00:42:44,556 Speaker 1: into itself. And so that I came up with this 636 00:42:45,156 --> 00:42:49,516 Speaker 1: piece Coordinarily, which is an hour long piece, which at 637 00:42:49,516 --> 00:42:52,556 Speaker 1: that time was the longest I could make it. And 638 00:42:52,636 --> 00:42:55,476 Speaker 1: I started thinking then about the idea of music that 639 00:42:56,196 --> 00:43:04,156 Speaker 1: doesn't have a beginning or end, that just is theoretically infinite. Well, 640 00:43:04,956 --> 00:43:08,116 Speaker 1: that didn't become possible until the nineties when I started 641 00:43:08,116 --> 00:43:12,476 Speaker 1: working with computer and it was possible to make the 642 00:43:12,596 --> 00:43:15,956 Speaker 1: kinds of programs I make now where where the music 643 00:43:15,996 --> 00:43:21,036 Speaker 1: effectively never repeats. And my ambition always then was to 644 00:43:21,076 --> 00:43:25,556 Speaker 1: try to make an experience a little bit like sitting 645 00:43:25,596 --> 00:43:30,596 Speaker 1: by a river. So you're sitting by the river. It's 646 00:43:30,636 --> 00:43:33,956 Speaker 1: always the same river, but as you know, it's never 647 00:43:33,996 --> 00:43:37,436 Speaker 1: the same river twice, So every time you look up 648 00:43:37,436 --> 00:43:41,276 Speaker 1: at the river, it's doing something a little bit different. Now, 649 00:43:41,396 --> 00:43:44,556 Speaker 1: it's not like watching a film where suddenly the river 650 00:43:44,996 --> 00:43:49,796 Speaker 1: turns blood red or gets much bigger or something like that. 651 00:43:50,036 --> 00:43:54,196 Speaker 1: I didn't want drama. I just wanted something like nature, 652 00:43:55,076 --> 00:44:02,316 Speaker 1: subtle variations. Subtle variations, yes, and variations that stay within 653 00:44:02,396 --> 00:44:06,996 Speaker 1: a kind of range of possibilities and explore that range 654 00:44:07,156 --> 00:44:11,356 Speaker 1: rather randomly. I just wanted the thing to be what 655 00:44:11,436 --> 00:44:15,316 Speaker 1: Harold Bud used to call eternally pretty. That was his 656 00:44:15,716 --> 00:44:20,076 Speaker 1: wif seting it. Dear Harold. He died about two months 657 00:44:20,076 --> 00:44:24,876 Speaker 1: ago from COVID, very sad. So I dedicate this thought 658 00:44:24,916 --> 00:44:28,556 Speaker 1: to Harold. So. Yes, So when Harold and I met, 659 00:44:28,676 --> 00:44:31,836 Speaker 1: we were both pretty much on this groove of thinking, 660 00:44:32,676 --> 00:44:39,116 Speaker 1: what about making music that isn't designed to upset anybody? Now, 661 00:44:39,476 --> 00:44:42,836 Speaker 1: of course that sounds pretty uncontroversial now, but in the 662 00:44:43,636 --> 00:44:47,476 Speaker 1: mid to late seventies that was considered to be the 663 00:44:47,516 --> 00:44:50,756 Speaker 1: biggest sell out of all time. You know, music was 664 00:44:50,796 --> 00:44:55,276 Speaker 1: supposed to shake the world and create revolutions and upset 665 00:44:55,316 --> 00:44:58,156 Speaker 1: your parents and all sorts of things like that. And 666 00:44:58,236 --> 00:45:02,796 Speaker 1: we thought, what about making music that is just really comfortable? 667 00:45:03,316 --> 00:45:07,236 Speaker 1: Comfortable was probably the most controversial word you could use. 668 00:45:07,316 --> 00:45:11,756 Speaker 1: Then what about music that makes you feel warm and 669 00:45:12,916 --> 00:45:19,396 Speaker 1: friendly and open and able to surrender? When I realized 670 00:45:19,396 --> 00:45:21,916 Speaker 1: that surrender was really the thing that I was interested 671 00:45:21,956 --> 00:45:25,356 Speaker 1: in for that kind of music. Obviously, I don't only 672 00:45:25,396 --> 00:45:28,876 Speaker 1: make that kind of music, but for that I wanted 673 00:45:28,916 --> 00:45:33,716 Speaker 1: to make something that would make you think I can 674 00:45:33,796 --> 00:45:36,156 Speaker 1: let something happen to me. I don't have to defend 675 00:45:36,196 --> 00:45:40,436 Speaker 1: against everything. I can get out of that posture of 676 00:45:40,476 --> 00:45:43,716 Speaker 1: self defense. If you think of the things that where 677 00:45:43,756 --> 00:45:53,676 Speaker 1: we achieve transcendence. If you like or ecstasy, it's sex, drugs, art, 678 00:45:54,116 --> 00:45:58,196 Speaker 1: and religion. Those are all the places where we say, 679 00:45:59,756 --> 00:46:01,476 Speaker 1: I'm going to let go and just let this thing 680 00:46:01,516 --> 00:46:04,236 Speaker 1: happen to me. I'm not going to control it. I'm 681 00:46:04,236 --> 00:46:07,396 Speaker 1: going to be taken somewhere. Now, it's interesting to me 682 00:46:07,516 --> 00:46:11,156 Speaker 1: that although we are constant trying to control, our biggest 683 00:46:11,196 --> 00:46:16,076 Speaker 1: thrills come from letting go of control. And so what 684 00:46:16,276 --> 00:46:20,196 Speaker 1: becomes obvious that is that it's the combination of those 685 00:46:20,236 --> 00:46:23,596 Speaker 1: two that we should really be specializing in. We should 686 00:46:23,876 --> 00:46:26,476 Speaker 1: and we should not forget the surrender part. We should 687 00:46:26,556 --> 00:46:34,116 Speaker 1: not think that surrendering is passivity or cowardice or incompetence. 688 00:46:35,076 --> 00:46:37,716 Speaker 1: We should say it's one of the ways we deal 689 00:46:37,756 --> 00:46:42,116 Speaker 1: with the world. So I think art is the place 690 00:46:42,156 --> 00:46:45,996 Speaker 1: where we go to have this feeling again, to remember 691 00:46:46,036 --> 00:46:49,396 Speaker 1: that feeling of going with the flow, of letting something 692 00:46:49,436 --> 00:46:52,916 Speaker 1: happen to us in real life. In the rest of life, 693 00:46:52,916 --> 00:46:55,396 Speaker 1: I should say, we are still able to do that, 694 00:46:55,436 --> 00:46:58,956 Speaker 1: we can remember that feeling. For me, there are certain 695 00:46:59,196 --> 00:47:04,796 Speaker 1: I can see a film that has an energy in 696 00:47:04,876 --> 00:47:11,036 Speaker 1: it that could affect me for months. Yes, and I'm 697 00:47:11,156 --> 00:47:15,556 Speaker 1: very open to the energies contained in things, So I'm 698 00:47:15,716 --> 00:47:18,516 Speaker 1: protective of what I watch for that reasons. I don't 699 00:47:18,556 --> 00:47:20,436 Speaker 1: want to have a bad time. A lot of the time, 700 00:47:20,556 --> 00:47:23,916 Speaker 1: I don't choose that. I just want to ask how 701 00:47:24,036 --> 00:47:27,436 Speaker 1: sensitive you are in that respect. Yes, I think I'm 702 00:47:27,516 --> 00:47:30,836 Speaker 1: very sensitive in that respect, and to the extent that 703 00:47:31,196 --> 00:47:34,076 Speaker 1: certain experiences I don't want to have them very often 704 00:47:34,956 --> 00:47:38,396 Speaker 1: because I don't want them to lose their power. So 705 00:47:38,956 --> 00:47:44,036 Speaker 1: just about the single album that probably influenced me more 706 00:47:44,076 --> 00:47:47,236 Speaker 1: than almost any other was the third Valve Underground album. 707 00:47:48,036 --> 00:47:50,996 Speaker 1: That was a really, really important record in my life 708 00:47:50,996 --> 00:47:54,476 Speaker 1: because so many things I had been wondering if they 709 00:47:54,476 --> 00:47:59,116 Speaker 1: were possible suddenly appeared on that album, and also a 710 00:47:59,196 --> 00:48:02,876 Speaker 1: lot of things I hadn't even conceived of. For that reason, 711 00:48:02,956 --> 00:48:07,116 Speaker 1: I've never owned the album. I haven't even listened to 712 00:48:07,156 --> 00:48:10,956 Speaker 1: it that many times because I really wanted it to 713 00:48:10,996 --> 00:48:15,196 Speaker 1: retain that power. I didn't want it to become commonplace. 714 00:48:16,196 --> 00:48:19,076 Speaker 1: Another piece like that is the Steve Ripe piece It's 715 00:48:19,076 --> 00:48:22,756 Speaker 1: going to Rain, that tape piece from I think nineteen 716 00:48:22,836 --> 00:48:28,156 Speaker 1: sixty four. That absolutely devastated me. The first time I 717 00:48:28,196 --> 00:48:32,636 Speaker 1: heard it. I understood so many things about music that 718 00:48:32,716 --> 00:48:36,476 Speaker 1: I had not even dreamed of before that piece, and 719 00:48:37,436 --> 00:48:40,636 Speaker 1: I still regard it as a key moment in my life. 720 00:48:40,836 --> 00:48:44,396 Speaker 1: And I think I've probably listened to it four times. 721 00:48:45,156 --> 00:48:49,236 Speaker 1: It turned a switch, and the switch stayed turned. Yes, 722 00:48:49,356 --> 00:48:51,676 Speaker 1: I didn't have to keep turning it again, you know, 723 00:48:52,156 --> 00:48:59,156 Speaker 1: it stayed turned. In your evolution up to ambient music, 724 00:48:59,956 --> 00:49:03,076 Speaker 1: it's fascinating to me that you could ever do anything 725 00:49:04,316 --> 00:49:06,476 Speaker 1: different than that. Do you know what I'm saying? It's 726 00:49:06,516 --> 00:49:08,276 Speaker 1: like it almost feels like that's the end of the 727 00:49:08,356 --> 00:49:14,756 Speaker 1: line in terms of the minimalist approach. You you got there, 728 00:49:15,156 --> 00:49:17,676 Speaker 1: so it's interesting that you do other things like you 729 00:49:17,716 --> 00:49:23,196 Speaker 1: didn't do the Mandrean staying in the same language only. Yes, 730 00:49:23,756 --> 00:49:26,276 Speaker 1: perhaps if I had carried on living in New York, 731 00:49:26,316 --> 00:49:29,436 Speaker 1: I would have done because I would have always wanted 732 00:49:30,556 --> 00:49:34,636 Speaker 1: more of that kind of music. But I've just had 733 00:49:34,676 --> 00:49:37,916 Speaker 1: the very interesting experience of do you know about this 734 00:49:38,116 --> 00:49:42,836 Speaker 1: Sonas project that I'm doing. I don't really tell me. Okay, Well, 735 00:49:42,956 --> 00:49:47,196 Speaker 1: Sonas asked me to curate a channel for them. Basically 736 00:49:47,276 --> 00:49:52,036 Speaker 1: it's like my own radio station, and I like the 737 00:49:52,116 --> 00:49:55,236 Speaker 1: idea of that, but I thought, what I'd really like 738 00:49:55,356 --> 00:49:59,596 Speaker 1: to do is to curate a station that plays only 739 00:49:59,636 --> 00:50:04,516 Speaker 1: my music because I've got so much unreleased stuff. You know. 740 00:50:04,596 --> 00:50:07,596 Speaker 1: I work in the studio every day pretty much, and 741 00:50:08,796 --> 00:50:12,356 Speaker 1: some of it is just experiments where I try something 742 00:50:12,396 --> 00:50:14,996 Speaker 1: out just to see what it would do if you 743 00:50:15,076 --> 00:50:18,356 Speaker 1: tried to make a piece of music like that. And 744 00:50:19,196 --> 00:50:23,196 Speaker 1: I have thousands of thousands of recordings like that. I 745 00:50:23,316 --> 00:50:25,996 Speaker 1: just mix everything, you know. When I finished the day, 746 00:50:26,036 --> 00:50:29,556 Speaker 1: I mix whatever I've done that day. Sometimes it can 747 00:50:29,596 --> 00:50:33,996 Speaker 1: be five or six different pieces. Even so I have 748 00:50:34,116 --> 00:50:38,076 Speaker 1: this vast library of stuff. Some of it is really 749 00:50:38,156 --> 00:50:41,436 Speaker 1: quite interesting, and I thought, how nice would it be 750 00:50:41,516 --> 00:50:45,356 Speaker 1: to have a radio channel where you just switch it 751 00:50:45,396 --> 00:50:49,636 Speaker 1: on and outcome pieces of music that you've never heard before, 752 00:50:49,796 --> 00:50:53,756 Speaker 1: will probably never hear again. And they're all quite different 753 00:50:53,796 --> 00:50:56,996 Speaker 1: from one another. There's quite a range of stuff. Some 754 00:50:57,076 --> 00:50:59,196 Speaker 1: of it is very ambient, some of it is very 755 00:50:59,996 --> 00:51:04,276 Speaker 1: hard beat stuff, some of it's really electronic. Some of 756 00:51:04,276 --> 00:51:09,396 Speaker 1: it is touchingly human, which is how you describe something 757 00:51:09,436 --> 00:51:14,076 Speaker 1: that is rather amateur. So for the first time in 758 00:51:14,116 --> 00:51:17,196 Speaker 1: my life, I thought, well, I'll just start listening through 759 00:51:17,236 --> 00:51:20,636 Speaker 1: to those things. And so they play on random shuffle 760 00:51:20,916 --> 00:51:23,596 Speaker 1: out of my computer, and I have to say, I 761 00:51:23,796 --> 00:51:28,396 Speaker 1: so like the collisions, the strange combinations of things. You know, 762 00:51:28,516 --> 00:51:32,156 Speaker 1: something from nineteen ninety one next to something I did 763 00:51:32,356 --> 00:51:36,636 Speaker 1: last year next to something from twenty five, and no 764 00:51:38,276 --> 00:51:45,356 Speaker 1: rationale to the choices that they're randomly selected. And although 765 00:51:45,436 --> 00:51:49,396 Speaker 1: some of the music is pretty challenging, a lot of 766 00:51:49,396 --> 00:51:54,356 Speaker 1: it is quite easy to listen to. And as I 767 00:51:54,356 --> 00:51:57,916 Speaker 1: would say to people, you'll probably only hear at once, 768 00:51:58,356 --> 00:52:01,956 Speaker 1: So if you don't like it, just wait, something else 769 00:52:01,996 --> 00:52:05,356 Speaker 1: will come along soon. Yeah, I have one last question 770 00:52:05,396 --> 00:52:08,396 Speaker 1: to ask, just because I'm really curious, what's your relationship 771 00:52:08,436 --> 00:52:13,476 Speaker 1: to spirituality? Well, as you can tell from the way 772 00:52:13,516 --> 00:52:19,036 Speaker 1: I talk too much, I think about this kind of 773 00:52:19,076 --> 00:52:21,836 Speaker 1: thing quite a lot. What I always want to do 774 00:52:22,036 --> 00:52:25,356 Speaker 1: is to cut away as much of the shit as 775 00:52:25,396 --> 00:52:30,036 Speaker 1: possible and see what's left. So I don't want to 776 00:52:30,076 --> 00:52:33,916 Speaker 1: be a believer. I want to be somebody who, as 777 00:52:33,956 --> 00:52:39,196 Speaker 1: far as possible, understands and knows things. Believing things leaves 778 00:52:39,236 --> 00:52:43,356 Speaker 1: me a little bit unsatisfied. If I find myself believing something, 779 00:52:43,396 --> 00:52:46,156 Speaker 1: I want to test the belief. I want to say, 780 00:52:46,316 --> 00:52:49,396 Speaker 1: how do I find out how valid this is? How 781 00:52:49,436 --> 00:52:53,396 Speaker 1: true this is? Now? In real belief, in proper faith, 782 00:52:53,516 --> 00:52:56,436 Speaker 1: you're not supposed to do that. Faith is supposed to be, 783 00:52:57,676 --> 00:53:01,756 Speaker 1: by definition, the acceptance of something that you cannot find 784 00:53:01,796 --> 00:53:04,996 Speaker 1: evidence for. If you can find evidence for, it's not 785 00:53:05,036 --> 00:53:09,956 Speaker 1: faith anymore. It's called knowledge. Then. So this is a 786 00:53:09,996 --> 00:53:14,196 Speaker 1: long way round of saying that I'm not anti spiritual, 787 00:53:14,596 --> 00:53:18,116 Speaker 1: I'm not anti religion. Actually, in fact, I can see 788 00:53:18,156 --> 00:53:23,236 Speaker 1: how religion really cements some communities together and really helps 789 00:53:23,276 --> 00:53:27,876 Speaker 1: people in their lives. But I'm not by nature a believer, 790 00:53:28,476 --> 00:53:32,556 Speaker 1: So it's difficult for me to use that kind of cement. 791 00:53:33,036 --> 00:53:36,396 Speaker 1: My cement has to come from trying to understand things 792 00:53:36,436 --> 00:53:40,116 Speaker 1: and to see how they work, and to share those 793 00:53:40,156 --> 00:53:44,636 Speaker 1: ideas with other people. Yeah so, I think one one 794 00:53:44,636 --> 00:53:49,196 Speaker 1: of the other things that surrendering prepares you for is 795 00:53:49,956 --> 00:53:55,796 Speaker 1: the experience of uncertainty, the experience of not knowing the 796 00:53:55,876 --> 00:54:00,596 Speaker 1: answer but still having to do something. You know, the 797 00:54:00,636 --> 00:54:03,436 Speaker 1: fact that you don't know the answer can't cripple you. 798 00:54:04,156 --> 00:54:06,956 Speaker 1: And of course a lot of people are crippled by 799 00:54:06,996 --> 00:54:10,356 Speaker 1: not knowing the answer, and so they just choose an 800 00:54:10,396 --> 00:54:15,676 Speaker 1: inappropriate answer just for the want of an answer. Yes, so, 801 00:54:15,956 --> 00:54:19,756 Speaker 1: you just have to accept that you don't know the answers, 802 00:54:20,676 --> 00:54:24,116 Speaker 1: and you will make mistakes, and you will need to 803 00:54:24,196 --> 00:54:30,116 Speaker 1: change your values and your tools, and some of them 804 00:54:30,196 --> 00:54:33,316 Speaker 1: might last you a lifetime. But you're lucky if that happens. 805 00:54:34,276 --> 00:54:39,036 Speaker 1: I haven't got any that lasted me a lifetime. Thank 806 00:54:39,076 --> 00:54:42,476 Speaker 1: you so much for doing this amazing pleasure speaking with you. 807 00:54:42,876 --> 00:54:44,916 Speaker 1: Yes you too, I must say I really enjoyed that. 808 00:54:48,516 --> 00:54:51,276 Speaker 1: Thanks to Brian Eno for sharing as artistic philosophy for 809 00:54:51,436 --> 00:54:54,676 Speaker 1: us to hear a favorite Brian Eno tracks. Head to 810 00:54:54,756 --> 00:54:58,036 Speaker 1: Broken Record podcast at part. Be sure to subscribe to 811 00:54:58,076 --> 00:55:01,076 Speaker 1: our YouTube channel, a YouTube dot com slash a Broken 812 00:55:01,116 --> 00:55:04,396 Speaker 1: Record podcast we can find all of our new episodes. 813 00:55:05,076 --> 00:55:08,076 Speaker 1: You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken 814 00:55:08,076 --> 00:55:10,956 Speaker 1: Record is produced a help from Lea Rose, Jason Gambrel, 815 00:55:11,236 --> 00:55:16,116 Speaker 1: Martin Gonzalez, Eric Sandler, and Jennifer Sanchez, with engineering help 816 00:55:16,156 --> 00:55:20,116 Speaker 1: from Nick Chaffee. Our executive producer is Mio Labella. Broken 817 00:55:20,156 --> 00:55:23,036 Speaker 1: Record is a production of Pushkin Industries and if you 818 00:55:23,116 --> 00:55:26,076 Speaker 1: like the show, please remember to share. Rate interviewers coming 819 00:55:26,076 --> 00:55:30,036 Speaker 1: a podcast. Our theme music's by Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Richard.