Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this
Speaker 1: is There Are No Girls on the Internet. We talk
Speaker 1: a lot on this podcast about the ethics around not
Speaker 1: to mention the safety of social media, especially when it
Speaker 1: involves the young people. And if you've spent any time
Speaker 1: at all on platforms like Instagram or TikTok, if you've
Speaker 1: no doubt seen parents who make their kids, even babies,
Speaker 1: the focal point of their entire social media presence. And
Speaker 1: sometimes this can be big business, generating a meaningful income
Speaker 1: in brand deals and partnerships. But what happens to kids
Speaker 1: when their parents use them for social media content. It's
Speaker 1: actually kind of uncharted territory. There isn't even a ton
Speaker 1: of research on the psychological impacts because it's so new,
Speaker 1: And this is really one of those situations where technology,
Speaker 1: what it makes possible, and the norms around it have
Speaker 1: evolved more quickly than our research or laws have. But
Speaker 1: here's what we do know. Young people who have had
Speaker 1: this experience of being the focal point of a mommy
Speaker 1: blog or social media account are speaking up, and now
Speaker 1: new legislation aims to regulate how parents can legally use
Speaker 1: and profit from their kids on social media. I joined
Speaker 1: my friends Annie and Samantha over at the podcast stuff
Speaker 1: Mom never told you to discuss, and honestly, I really,
Speaker 1: really really want to know what y'all think, because, like
Speaker 1: I said, this is totally new territory and none of
Speaker 1: us really know how it will unpact young people. So
Speaker 1: I'd love to hear your thoughts. Hey, this is Annie
Speaker 1: and Samantha and welcome to Stephane. Never told your protection
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, and today we are once again thrilled, so ecstatic,
Speaker 1: joyful to be joined by the amazing world traveling bridget
Speaker 1: I love the introductions you all give. They won't they
Speaker 1: like truly warm my heart? Yes, well, you warm our
Speaker 1: heart by being here, especially when you're doing so much
Speaker 1: other stuff and you are coming at us from a
Speaker 1: different location. Correct, that's right, I'm coming from you live.
Speaker 1: Well not it won't be live when people hear this,
Speaker 1: but live for right now from Mexico City, Mexico, where
Speaker 1: it's nice and warm. Yeah, it's lovely here. It looks lovely.
Speaker 1: You've got like a like healthy light globe coming in
Speaker 1: behind me where we're staying is like has a lovely
Speaker 1: view and like all the different monuments and stuff. And
Speaker 1: then there's I didn't know that Mexico City is so mountainous,
Speaker 1: so it's like a really it's kind of like being
Speaker 1: in California, like a beautiful view, but then skyscrapers. Yeah,
Speaker 1: ten out of ten can recommend. Yes, So you're having
Speaker 1: a good time. Can you give us some highlights, some
Speaker 1: food maybe that you've had. Oh? Yes, everything I've eaten
Speaker 1: has been amazing, honestly, it's so one of the reasons
Speaker 1: I wanted to come to Mexico City was because of
Speaker 1: the food. I've been told that you could go to
Speaker 1: like Michelin Star super bougie restaurant and get a delicious
Speaker 1: meal in Mexico City if you wanted to, or just
Speaker 1: get like, you know, cheap tacos on the street and
Speaker 1: that would be delicious. And so I've been eating all
Speaker 1: the things, lots of street tacos, which are great. Something
Speaker 1: else I like is they take breakfast very seriously here,
Speaker 1: which I am a breakfast person. I really like that.
Speaker 1: So lots of good breakfasts items. Yeah, so far I've
Speaker 1: been I've only been here since Saturday, so it hasn't
Speaker 1: been that long, but looking forward to eating all the things. Yes, oh, say,
Speaker 1: you've been there almost a week, so yeah, I think
Speaker 1: you've gotten You've gotten some variety. I'm sure you're gonna
Speaker 1: have a whole lot more. But that's I'm very jealous of,
Speaker 1: like the breakfast, because I'm sure it's all I see delicious.
Speaker 1: There's something about a savory, spicy breakfast. It does it
Speaker 1: really doesn't want it. I'll be there. Save a couch
Speaker 1: for me, save a couch, yes, yes, yes, as well.
Speaker 1: We're looking forward to checking back in more food updates hopefully,
Speaker 1: but yeah, thank you so much for taking the time
Speaker 1: to join us from a different city when you haven't
Speaker 1: been there that long. Oh, always a pleasure. And my
Speaker 1: own podcast, There Are No Girls on the Internet is
Speaker 1: on a hiatus, so I feel like, um, in this
Speaker 1: time where I'm not podcasting, having an outlet wreck and
Speaker 1: be like I saw this thing on the internet and
Speaker 1: I have to talk about it with somebody. Has been
Speaker 1: great for me, So thank you for having me. Yes, absolutely,
Speaker 1: And the topic he bought today is fascinating and such
Speaker 1: like a big one and one that we have discussed
Speaker 1: a lot on the show. Recently because we've been kind
Speaker 1: of on a tech streak on the show, and not
Speaker 1: to like, not to put words into anyone else's mouths.
Speaker 1: But I didn't grow up with social media. I got
Speaker 1: it late college, I would say, was the earliest that
Speaker 1: I got. Some friends of mine got it when I
Speaker 1: was in high school, but I was kind of a
Speaker 1: late bloomer, as they say. And I know it sounds
Speaker 1: kind of like back in my day, but I'm I'm
Speaker 1: pretty thankful for it, honestly in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1: And this this kind of new phenomenon of all of
Speaker 1: our lives, but especially in this outline bridget of children's
Speaker 1: lives being on the internet is fairly new and in
Speaker 1: a lot of ways kind of disturbed, a little unsettling.
Speaker 1: I did want to ask before we get into this
Speaker 1: conversation both of you, what was your kind of experience
Speaker 1: with social media? And also, and you can pass on
Speaker 1: this one because I know it's kind of a fraught subject,
Speaker 1: does your family follow you on social media? Oh? What
Speaker 1: a good question. Well, you know, we just before we
Speaker 1: got on here talked about the fact that I am
Speaker 1: from the generation of Beeper's and that the Internet was
Speaker 1: not a thing until I almost got into college. Essentially,
Speaker 1: like at the tail end of everything. The beeper was
Speaker 1: due to my job. And at my first job out
Speaker 1: of college, I was a child abuse investigator and those
Speaker 1: systems were getting online, were you. I was still in
Speaker 1: the time where we were doing everything by hand. Essentially,
Speaker 1: that was where I am. The technology and social media
Speaker 1: was fairly new for me. I think outside of college
Speaker 1: had like my Space and Facebook. I dabbled that first,
Speaker 1: and since then, I'm like, Okay, I like the social
Speaker 1: media thing, but I am also very grateful, especially seeing
Speaker 1: what my nieces and nephew have gone through with social media,
Speaker 1: which they are gen z or so it's a whole
Speaker 1: different level. I do have family that follow me. I
Speaker 1: do not like it, and now a post less because
Speaker 1: they follow me. Yeah. Say, we were talking about how
Speaker 1: the first time I met you, Samantha, you this was
Speaker 1: just a couple of years ago, you had a beeper
Speaker 1: on your person the first time you met in person
Speaker 1: years ago. Yeah, my relationship with social media, I Annie,
Speaker 1: I'm kind of like you, Like, I am so glad
Speaker 1: that I came of age in a time where social media, Like,
Speaker 1: I'm glad that what I was doing on social media
Speaker 1: or like the early days of my internet usage, it's
Speaker 1: not still around behind me or at least Scott, I
Speaker 1: hope not. So. I was using things like live journal
Speaker 1: when I was in early high school, and I remember
Speaker 1: I was in college when we first got Facebook, and
Speaker 1: before Facebook, it was my Space, so like I was
Speaker 1: like a scene kid and so college, like my Space
Speaker 1: dominated my college experience. Like that was like how you
Speaker 1: understood and kept up with my gross scenster hipster friends
Speaker 1: in college. But it's funny because even though I was
Speaker 1: dabbling with social media back then, it's so different than
Speaker 1: it is today, Like it like it doesn't even feel
Speaker 1: like the same thing. I guess it technically was social media,
Speaker 1: but the implications were so different than I mean, back then,
Speaker 1: you were spending hours making it so that when you
Speaker 1: go to your MySpace page, it has like falling stars
Speaker 1: and an AutoPlay panic at the disco song that nobody
Speaker 1: can pause. But it was stuff like that, and it
Speaker 1: was a social media but it was so different than
Speaker 1: today that I should of whether or not my family
Speaker 1: follows me on social media. I don't allow them to
Speaker 1: follow me on social media. This could be a longer
Speaker 1: conversation but I feel like I've kind of accepted that
Speaker 1: my social media and digital presence is not actually who
Speaker 1: I am in real life, and so you know, you
Speaker 1: should really be thinking about, like when you post on
Speaker 1: social media, like who is your audience? Who is this for?
Speaker 1: And so who I actually am that the audience for
Speaker 1: that is like my friends and family, people who knew
Speaker 1: me in real life, my online persona, if you will.
Speaker 1: That's not for my friends and family. That's where people
Speaker 1: who are interested in my podcast, interested in my content,
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. Like, And so I draw like
Speaker 1: pretty clear distinction between the two. Like I almost think
Speaker 1: of my social media or like digital self as like
Speaker 1: my avatar for my real self. And I don't like
Speaker 1: the idea of the two kind of the two worlds
Speaker 1: kind of overlapping. So I try to keep a very
Speaker 1: clear distinction between my friend in family irl and my
Speaker 1: social media persona, which I don't see as my real self,
Speaker 1: if that makes sense. I know I probably sound like
Speaker 1: somebody who just took a huge bong rip. I swear
Speaker 1: to god I have not. You know, that's pretty fascinating
Speaker 1: because I think that says a lot to the reality
Speaker 1: of social media. When you say it like that there
Speaker 1: is a persona and there's this whole level of understanding
Speaker 1: that there's a difference between the person and what's seen
Speaker 1: on screen in different accounts, in different platforms. And I know,
Speaker 1: as we're talking about the subject you're bringing which I
Speaker 1: have a lot of opinions, So I'm really really excited
Speaker 1: and a lot of concerns, just as being in child welfare,
Speaker 1: but in that level of what we see and what
Speaker 1: is posted and who has control of what is being posted. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: it's it's so complicated, and I think it's complicated for
Speaker 1: me as a grown woman in my thirties. I can
Speaker 1: only manage how much more complicated it gets navigating this
Speaker 1: as a young person. So I know that I came
Speaker 1: on the show quite a while ago to talk about
Speaker 1: Francis Hogan, the Facebook whistle blower, and what she what
Speaker 1: her whistle blowing revealed about what Facebook and Instagram knows
Speaker 1: about how social media negatively it impacts young girls, And
Speaker 1: so that was a conversation that we had. But this
Speaker 1: conversation is a little bit different because it really asks
Speaker 1: what happens when it's not the you know, teen or
Speaker 1: the child getting on social media themselves, what happens when
Speaker 1: it's the mom or the parent who is kind of
Speaker 1: forcing I use that word in quotes, forcing their child
Speaker 1: to be part of their social media content, part of
Speaker 1: their social media persona. And so on my podcast, there
Speaker 1: are No Girls on the Internet. I did this fascinating
Speaker 1: interview with this woman, Sarah Adams, and she runs the
Speaker 1: TikTok account mom Uncharted. She told me that she calls
Speaker 1: her account mom Uncharted because social media, if you think
Speaker 1: about it, it's really like this uncharted territory for parenting,
Speaker 1: and we really do not know how social media will
Speaker 1: impact our kids. If you want to listen to the
Speaker 1: whole interview, check out my podcast. It's It's she's a
Speaker 1: really fascinating person, but her social media account is dedicated
Speaker 1: to explorations of kind of mom influencing and like mom
Speaker 1: run accounts and all the different ways that parents. It's honestly,
Speaker 1: it's usually moms use their children for content on social media.
Speaker 1: She told me that social media, you know, the dynamics
Speaker 1: around it have changed so quickly, not that long ago.
Speaker 1: If I would just say something like, oh, sharing your
Speaker 1: kid on social media, you might think that means like
Speaker 1: posting a cute picture on Facebook where you're great aunt
Speaker 1: or your uncle or something might like it. Now, kids
Speaker 1: who are not even really old enough to understand what
Speaker 1: it means, not to mention, not old enough to consent
Speaker 1: to it, can have their most intimate or sensitive or
Speaker 1: embarrassing moments seen by millions of people on social media
Speaker 1: platforms like TikTok. Right, as we've said in a lot
Speaker 1: of these past episodes, this is sort of an iteration
Speaker 1: of things we've seen before. This is going to also
Speaker 1: kind of age me. But my parents wants in a
Speaker 1: video of me as a kid to America's funny as
Speaker 1: some videos, But that's like very different, Like they weren't
Speaker 1: going to make money off of it, right, but what
Speaker 1: were you doing in the video? Never you mind? I
Speaker 1: was alternately like so enamored with a frog and then
Speaker 1: terrified of the frog. It's just like it wasn't that funny,
Speaker 1: but they thought it was very funny. But then it
Speaker 1: became like you know, reality TV, and we've talked about
Speaker 1: those things before as well, of like kind of the
Speaker 1: dance Mom's situation. And then now it becomes, oh, what
Speaker 1: we're seeing on social media where people are making money
Speaker 1: off of this content of their kids, where the kids
Speaker 1: can't consent to it, where it will probably never be
Speaker 1: able to be fully erased if that's what they wanted,
Speaker 1: If that's what they wanted, And then I know we're
Speaker 1: going to talk about this later, but there's kind of
Speaker 1: all these achy issues around like paris social relationships people
Speaker 1: develop with these kids, and what do we do about that?
Speaker 1: Like is that the platform? Is it the parent that's
Speaker 1: posting this content? Like all of these questions that come
Speaker 1: from from what it like one level can seem like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is just a cute video of this kid falling
Speaker 1: over something, But when you dig deeper than that, there's
Speaker 1: just all of these other questions exactly and you put
Speaker 1: it so well right, like just two level set. I
Speaker 1: don't feel like every parent who shares content of their
Speaker 1: kid is it's created equal here, Like there's a pretty
Speaker 1: big difference between you know, sharing the occasional family vacation
Speaker 1: video or like cute picture or whatever with your friends
Speaker 1: on social media or even wider Internet. There's a difference
Speaker 1: between that, which I think most people do. And it
Speaker 1: is like fine and running a business that generates income
Speaker 1: from relying on an audience of millions of people engaging
Speaker 1: with your child, right, And there are so many questions
Speaker 1: that you just kind of alluded to and reasons for
Speaker 1: why we should sort of be asking questions about what
Speaker 1: that is doing to our kids. One of the things
Speaker 1: that I think is unique about social media and technology
Speaker 1: in general is how quickly it moves. Things just move
Speaker 1: really quickly. And I think that when it comes to
Speaker 1: our kids and the impact on our kids, it would
Speaker 1: behove us to not move really quickly, would behove us
Speaker 1: to take a minute, pump the brakes and do some
Speaker 1: real deep thought about how we want our children to
Speaker 1: be showing up on social media and whether or not
Speaker 1: it's actually good for them psychologically, emotionally, and whether or
Speaker 1: not it's actually safe, like in the real you know,
Speaker 1: in every implication of the word, like sometimes it is
Speaker 1: not safe to share so much of your child on
Speaker 1: social media with strangers. You know, there might be a
Speaker 1: negative psychological impact on kids. I really wanted to find
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I'm going to get some good
Speaker 1: media research on this. But as the uncharted part of
Speaker 1: Sarah Adams's TikTok Names suggests, there kind of isn't a
Speaker 1: ton of good research out there about the way that
Speaker 1: being used for content by your parents would impact children,
Speaker 1: and that's partly because it's just so new, Morgan sung
Speaker 1: over at NBC. She's one of my favorite Internet reporters,
Speaker 1: and she's really been following this beat of young people
Speaker 1: who have been kind of turned into content by their parents.
Speaker 1: So Morgan spoke to Lindsay Cooley, who was a licensed
Speaker 1: clinical child psychologist, who said that because social media is
Speaker 1: so relatively new, there is not really a lot of
Speaker 1: clinical research on the long term effects of what she
Speaker 1: calls growing up online. But lately, some kids who did
Speaker 1: grow up with parents who shared every aspect of their
Speaker 1: lives on social media are starting to speak out. Morgan
Speaker 1: Song talked to Cam, whose mom used to make content
Speaker 1: about their life. Cam said that their mom sharing every
Speaker 1: single detail of their life had a real negative impact
Speaker 1: on their mental health, and eventually they kind of stopped
Speaker 1: being open with their mom about whatever they were going
Speaker 1: through because they knew this is just going to wind
Speaker 1: up being shared on the Internet with her followers. Cam
Speaker 1: is immuno compromised and would spend a lot of time
Speaker 1: ill or sick, and rather than like being there for them,
Speaker 1: Cam says that their mom would just be filming these
Speaker 1: filming that's for content. So at times in their life
Speaker 1: where they were sick or stressed or going through something difficult,
Speaker 1: their mom would be there with a camera in their face,
Speaker 1: right right. And I think that's the way you phrased
Speaker 1: it of like you know, using kids for content, of
Speaker 1: like then you become something like a tool to get
Speaker 1: clicks as opposed to like a child that needs care
Speaker 1: and needs help and needs respects. And how damaging that
Speaker 1: absolutely would be if you start to feel like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's just like my tears are just a way for
Speaker 1: you to film something and get people to watch it.
Speaker 1: Like what what would that do to you? Like that's
Speaker 1: very damaging? I think yeah. And it's actually as an adult,
Speaker 1: like speaking of that sort of distinction between my social
Speaker 1: media life or my digital life and my real life,
Speaker 1: I don't really share a lot of my like real
Speaker 1: life on social media, and in part it's because of
Speaker 1: that tension that you just named. If I have something
Speaker 1: in my life it is really truly meaningful to me,
Speaker 1: I am really uncomfortable with the idea of that being content,
Speaker 1: of that being something to generate clicks, of that being
Speaker 1: something that's going to have a number attached to it, like, oh,
Speaker 1: three hundred people liked that my grandfather passed away or whatever.
Speaker 1: Like I'm I really am not comfortable with that personally,
Speaker 1: and so I tend to keep big or meaningful real
Speaker 1: life moments off of social media because of that, because
Speaker 1: I don't like the idea, and I'm like, no shade
Speaker 1: to anybody who doesn't feel that way. This is just
Speaker 1: how it feels for me. It just doesn't feel right,
Speaker 1: and I think for me it feels like it is
Speaker 1: does a disservice to how meaningful those moments truly are
Speaker 1: in my life. I don't want to see Mark Zuckerberg's
Speaker 1: engagement metric on the back end of something that was
Speaker 1: like deeply meaningful to me in my real life. That
Speaker 1: seems to cheap, and that feels a little bit cheap
Speaker 1: to me, I guess, yeah. And it is interesting because again,
Speaker 1: we are adults, and if you want to post that
Speaker 1: content and you're contenting to, yeah, you're an adult, so
Speaker 1: you can consent to it. Then that's one thing. It
Speaker 1: still feels strange because that's a whole separate podcast, but
Speaker 1: kind of still like, oh, here's this sad thing I
Speaker 1: have to like it, because otherwise they're gonna be mad.
Speaker 1: I didn't like it, Like there's like this kind of
Speaker 1: social dynamic around that feels odd because then you're like, well,
Speaker 1: I'm liking this thing. That's really sad, but I find
Speaker 1: don't do it. But I do think that, and please
Speaker 1: don't come at me listeners, but I do think like
Speaker 1: in the same way people sometimes use like pets or
Speaker 1: puppies to be like, oh, look, how cute. Click on
Speaker 1: this content here they are people are using their kids
Speaker 1: like that, like see here's my life, here's this like
Speaker 1: view of my life, and like, oh, what did my
Speaker 1: kid do today to get these clicks? And if that
Speaker 1: is like oh my kid is very sick and I
Speaker 1: am going through a hard time. Please, you know, give
Speaker 1: me these likes, give me this engagement, it does become
Speaker 1: pretty murky, right. You know. It's interesting too as we
Speaker 1: were talking about the levels, like you're talking about social
Speaker 1: media etiquette, which has been a conversation like how how
Speaker 1: do you go from this? But also how social media
Speaker 1: has grown, Like when you think of the initial Facebook,
Speaker 1: it was literally to connect with college friends for me,
Speaker 1: or your past friends or high school friends that you
Speaker 1: haven't seen. So you may be updating, so I might
Speaker 1: get a picture of my old high school friend who
Speaker 1: had a child, and oh, how cute. And it wasn't
Speaker 1: necessarily about getting likes and looks. It's just, hey, I'm
Speaker 1: updating you about my life, even to the point that
Speaker 1: like wedding announcements, funeral announcements were done on Facebook. I'm
Speaker 1: on Facebook still to remember people's birthdays and to get
Speaker 1: an event advice, because a lot of people used to
Speaker 1: use that as the way of getting invitations or birthday
Speaker 1: parties or even sometimes weddings, which is really odd. But
Speaker 1: the level that we have grown to is this genre
Speaker 1: of TikTok. TikTok is not a thing you can do private,
Speaker 1: and you can do small content, but it really is
Speaker 1: a race to see what can go viral and what
Speaker 1: can make money and what can get sponsorships. And it's
Speaker 1: changed vastly from what an elder millennial like myself knew
Speaker 1: it as to what it is today. But because people
Speaker 1: are learning things so fast or getting access to things
Speaker 1: so quickly, that etiquette has been kind of lost or
Speaker 1: lost in translation perhaps, and it's become a point that
Speaker 1: for the gen Z years, and I guess newer millennials.
Speaker 1: What are those younger millennials. Baby millennials have seen this
Speaker 1: as a norm and don't didn't realize until maybe just
Speaker 1: recently as the younger generators who've been on social media
Speaker 1: all of their lives since their birth have started to
Speaker 1: call it out that this was normal and in competition
Speaker 1: and a way of possibly making a living, and it's
Speaker 1: just kind of made this whole culture completely different from
Speaker 1: what it was even three years ago. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: that's that's such an insightful point. And I do think
Speaker 1: it is, like it is not just human nature. It
Speaker 1: is a little bit, it's some of it, but it's
Speaker 1: also exactly what you said I think. I think it's
Speaker 1: algorithmically generated platforms where whatever is extreme or over the
Speaker 1: top or whatever gets more attention, and platforms like TikTok
Speaker 1: where that is the currency is like that, that's what
Speaker 1: gets engagement, is that attention, and so you have people,
Speaker 1: so that's that's like its own thing. When you add
Speaker 1: in kids to the mix that it just kind of
Speaker 1: has the potential to really be so fraught. Like I
Speaker 1: remember it was some YouTuber I don't know her name
Speaker 1: off hand, but she was kind of like quote unquote
Speaker 1: canceled because she was known for being like a YouTuber
Speaker 1: who showed her family and her family pet passed away,
Speaker 1: and so she was making a YouTube video about how
Speaker 1: her family pet passed away, and I guess she accidentally
Speaker 1: uploaded the unedited footage where her child was very like,
Speaker 1: genuinely authentically upset and crying, and the parent was, rather
Speaker 1: than consoling this child, trying to tell the child to
Speaker 1: contort his face so that it would be really like,
Speaker 1: so it would be like a really extreme picture of
Speaker 1: them crying, because she knew that if you use that
Speaker 1: that image of an extreme close up of like a
Speaker 1: distorted face who's experiencing extreme emotion, if you use that
Speaker 1: for the thumbnail on YouTube, it gets more engagement. If
Speaker 1: you ever look at YouTube videos and you're wondering, why
Speaker 1: do all the thumbnails have people making really weird over
Speaker 1: the top faces that nobody really makes in real life,
Speaker 1: it's because they have figured out that the algorithm rewards
Speaker 1: videos that include faces like that. And so while this
Speaker 1: child is experiencing a genuine response emotionally to losing their pet,
Speaker 1: mom is like, oh, make sure that you really give
Speaker 1: me a good cry face so that my YouTube video
Speaker 1: of back this performs well, and so I think it's
Speaker 1: not just our nature as humans, it is also platforms
Speaker 1: that are prompting people into behavior that they would not
Speaker 1: otherwise probably do if not for the way that platforms
Speaker 1: kind of encourage us to do this. Do that makes sense? No, yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: I think again, like the squeaky will gets the oil
Speaker 1: type of thing where you see the most dramatic or
Speaker 1: the most over the top. Like one of the things
Speaker 1: that's really thriving on TikTok is people calling out other
Speaker 1: people for cheating or thinking they're cheating if you're so
Speaker 1: and so I just saw your husband here talking to
Speaker 1: this girl, like that's been a big thing and it
Speaker 1: shouldn't be as before. Like there's a part of this
Speaker 1: like yes, let the women know so they can get out,
Speaker 1: but it's also purely for entertainment, for the numbers, for
Speaker 1: the likes, and then as we see with these children,
Speaker 1: more and more shocking things that people think is okay.
Speaker 1: I know a YouTuber as you were talking about another
Speaker 1: YouTuber family, we talked about this recently. Actually in one
Speaker 1: of the episodes you came on, the couple adopted the
Speaker 1: child just for the sake of saying we're good people
Speaker 1: and adopted this child. Come on this journey with us.
Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden, the child disappeared, and everybody, look,
Speaker 1: what the hell just happened? What did you do to
Speaker 1: this child? And it's the same way as we've seen
Speaker 1: several like the couple who did the experiment with their
Speaker 1: two young boys saying, hey, we're gonna say that one
Speaker 1: of your brothers died, your pretend brother died. Just go
Speaker 1: along with it so we can make money. And this
Speaker 1: was a whole experiment on the kids for entertainment. The
Speaker 1: audience is supposed to know that this is a joke.
Speaker 1: We're just testing the kids. Let's see how the kids react.
Speaker 1: And it was so traumatizing to watch these kids pretending
Speaker 1: like they're lying, but questioning why they're doing this, and
Speaker 1: then having it filmed and everybody saying, what are you doing?
Speaker 1: This is so mentally damaging to your child. But you're
Speaker 1: doing this for the sake of TikTok to show what
Speaker 1: So the example that you brought up earlier, the family,
Speaker 1: the YouTube family that adopted a child, there they're gonna
Speaker 1: we're gonna return to them. They make a little surprised
Speaker 1: guest appearance in this episode. I think you're right. I
Speaker 1: think that there is. I honestly think it goes back
Speaker 1: to something that you said, Sam. I think it's a
Speaker 1: situation where because the Internet has moved so quickly, like
Speaker 1: from where it was when I was updating my MySpace
Speaker 1: profile in my dorm room in college to today, that
Speaker 1: wasn't that long I'm old, but I'm not that old, right,
Speaker 1: that wasn't that long ago, And where we were then
Speaker 1: and where we are now are completely different. So it's
Speaker 1: moved so quickly, and I think it's a situation where
Speaker 1: not like the cultural norms around what is and it's
Speaker 1: not acceptable, healthy, okay to do a good idea, to
Speaker 1: do whatever, those have not kept up with how quickly
Speaker 1: the technology has moved, And so we now can film
Speaker 1: our kids inside of our house and quickly uploaded to
Speaker 1: TikTok or YouTube and get a million views. Our society
Speaker 1: has perhaps not progressed to a place where it's like
Speaker 1: but should we? And I would argue that our laws
Speaker 1: have also not kept up with that, And so I
Speaker 1: do think there's something about the speed with which the
Speaker 1: Internet has changed become so ubiquitous in our lives that
Speaker 1: we have not pumped the brakes and allowed for cultural norms,
Speaker 1: societal norms, the law to all catch up to where
Speaker 1: we are right now, and especially the fact that kids
Speaker 1: are we absolutely should be taking the time to be
Speaker 1: a little bit more introspective and slow down a little bit,
Speaker 1: to have a cultural reset about what is it is
Speaker 1: not okay when it comes to filming children for strangers online, right,
Speaker 1: And it kind of always reminds me of the thing
Speaker 1: that I had to tell kids as Snapchat and all
Speaker 1: those different things were existing, again reminding them you may
Speaker 1: think it's not on the internet, but it's on the internet,
Speaker 1: so just as a reminder. But also the government is
Speaker 1: very quick to use things like this to go after
Speaker 1: the marginalists communities, and that's a whole different conversation, I know,
Speaker 1: but having to try to explain to both parents and
Speaker 1: to children like, hey, you posting this picture of your
Speaker 1: half naked child actually can be considered child porn and
Speaker 1: you can be arrested on a felony and then being
Speaker 1: completely shocked, and then having also letting the kids know, hey,
Speaker 1: you just sending it yourself, even though you're doing it
Speaker 1: with your quote unquote consent as a minder, you don't
Speaker 1: have the ability to consent, but is only going after
Speaker 1: specific things and specific morality rather than what the root
Speaker 1: of the problem is with the social media. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: same I. This is kind of a non sequitur I had,
Speaker 1: but the most like weird conversation with a stranger on
Speaker 1: TikTok it was, for whatever reason, I get surfaced a
Speaker 1: lot of content about hallucinogens, like hallucinogens drugs. TikTok thinks
Speaker 1: I'm very interested in like expanding my mind. And there
Speaker 1: was a woman who is a woman look like a
Speaker 1: woman of color to me talking about how she enjoys
Speaker 1: using mushrooms and it's like, oh, like, come follow me
Speaker 1: from my beautiful day on mushrooms. And it did look
Speaker 1: like a beautiful day. Like she's at the beach, she's
Speaker 1: like going for a swim. Looks fantastic. Then she goes
Speaker 1: to her car and it's like she's like, oh, I
Speaker 1: had to drive home. And I was like, honey, this
Speaker 1: is a video. You're a woman of color, and this
Speaker 1: is a video of you admitting to a crime. Like
Speaker 1: this is not me judging you or me saying this,
Speaker 1: but it is me knowing that, Like I've seen people.
Speaker 1: I've seen people who are going through like contentious marital
Speaker 1: situations to get CPS called on them. Like I've heard
Speaker 1: horror stories of people who just uploaded stuff to the
Speaker 1: Internet without thinking about it, and then they lost a job,
Speaker 1: they lost a scholarship, the courts got involved, and somebody
Speaker 1: else was like, why is that the first thing that
Speaker 1: you jumped to when I was like, I understand that,
Speaker 1: Like it sucks, and I like, I don't want to
Speaker 1: be the person to have to tell you this and
Speaker 1: like rain out of your parade from your nice day
Speaker 1: that you were trying to show what the internet, But
Speaker 1: I want to be the person that tells you the truth.
Speaker 1: And the truth is that especially for people of color, you,
Speaker 1: I mean, nobody should have be admitting to a crime
Speaker 1: on video. That that's just like end that there. Do
Speaker 1: what you're gonna do if you're not hurting anybody whatever,
Speaker 1: but like be smart about it, Like, don't don't have
Speaker 1: this new era of social media where we don't necessarily
Speaker 1: have the cultural norms firmly established anymore, the guardrails, if
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Don't let that false feeling
Speaker 1: of freedom make you think that we actually do have
Speaker 1: freedom online, especially if you're a marginalized I would that
Speaker 1: is just like a rule of don't admit to crimes
Speaker 1: on the Internet. That's just like, I don't care how
Speaker 1: much engagement it gets you. That's just an overall But
Speaker 1: as you're saying for the person who's like, why do
Speaker 1: you have to go to that like pessimistic view? And
Speaker 1: I know I'm always joking about the fact that I'm pessimistic,
Speaker 1: but the reality is it's really privileged for someone to
Speaker 1: not have to even worry about it. That's the problem.
Speaker 1: The problem about this is I have been on this
Speaker 1: side of where I see police officers, I see court
Speaker 1: systems actually go after specific individuals because they've profiled them
Speaker 1: from jump and then find the social media accounts and
Speaker 1: use every bit they can from that because they're profiling
Speaker 1: once again. And that I know we use that as
Speaker 1: generalized terms and the bigger picture, but it happens on
Speaker 1: social media as well. As well as the fact that
Speaker 1: there was a perfect example of this dude who's really big,
Speaker 1: TikToker got really big because he got he was funny.
Speaker 1: Everybody loved him. He thought he was just hilarious. He
Speaker 1: just cuts into a video and then tells a random
Speaker 1: fact that was his whole thing, And then people found
Speaker 1: and dug into his earlier post where he brings his child,
Speaker 1: where the child says all this homophobic and racist comments,
Speaker 1: which obviously was taught by him, and he's encouraging it,
Speaker 1: and everybody's getting pissed at, both the child and him,
Speaker 1: and this is what he's done, not realizing that he
Speaker 1: was going to blow up. But that's the consequence. It's like,
Speaker 1: not only have you ruined your own reputation, you've already
Speaker 1: ruined your child's. Oh my god. And it's like, I
Speaker 1: could only see that as like a parenting fail. If
Speaker 1: your kid heard you using slurs and repeated that and
Speaker 1: you knew that was behavior that they were exhibiting, that
Speaker 1: is one thing. Then being like I should film this
Speaker 1: for the Internet because it's funny, that is I guess
Speaker 1: that's what I'm saying. I'm not being very eloquent about it,
Speaker 1: but I do think that we are in this point
Speaker 1: where I don't know that people universally understand that not
Speaker 1: every moment is okay to be shared on the Internet.
Speaker 1: And you know, I would hope for that parent in
Speaker 1: that situation to be like, we need to have a
Speaker 1: conversation about what is and it's not okay to say.
Speaker 1: The fact that this parent was like, oh, get the camera,
Speaker 1: this is gonna be great, put this on the internet.
Speaker 1: That really tells me that I think that we are
Speaker 1: in a place where perhaps people are not asking the
Speaker 1: question of should I be filming this? What are the consequences?
Speaker 1: This is is gonna be good for my kid? Like, I
Speaker 1: think that we just need to have a little bit
Speaker 1: more introspection about what we share to the internet for
Speaker 1: strangers and absolutely, and again it is this layer of
Speaker 1: safety that people think, because they don't see people's reaction,
Speaker 1: they just record it and move on with their day
Speaker 1: until the consequences happened, that they're safe to do this.
Speaker 1: And maybe they're thinking they're being relatable or maybe they're
Speaker 1: trauma bonding with people, which is in itself like why
Speaker 1: are you doing this and it's doing at the expense
Speaker 1: of a child, thinking maybe I don't know if it's
Speaker 1: legitimate or if it's a rue saying that I'm just
Speaker 1: trying to teach you. I'm just trying to share our
Speaker 1: you know, our downfalls and I'm trying to be real,
Speaker 1: but it's again at the expense of a child's emotions
Speaker 1: and trauma. So that exact thing is the reason why
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about this, because I had a
Speaker 1: moment where I saw this video on TikTok, and I
Speaker 1: have to say, like, I was personally triggered by this,
Speaker 1: this TikTok that I saw, And it was this video
Speaker 1: of a black mom who was washing her black child's
Speaker 1: like braids, right, and so this so she had a
Speaker 1: camera setup where she was holding her child over the
Speaker 1: sink to like scrub her scale and this little girl
Speaker 1: was like maybe she's like seven or eight. She is
Speaker 1: bawling her eyes out, she is so upset. Right, And
Speaker 1: so I'm a black woman. I have braids now. I
Speaker 1: have braids for most of my life when I was
Speaker 1: a kid, Like a lot of black women, my hair
Speaker 1: has been something that is like a complicated thing, like
Speaker 1: a lot of black women have complicated feelings about their hair.
Speaker 1: And I have many a memory of cr while getting
Speaker 1: my hair done, crying while getting my braids taken, you know,
Speaker 1: taken out or put in, And I remember quite viscerally
Speaker 1: what a vulnerable position that I was in in those times.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that like moms shouldn't do their kids
Speaker 1: hair if they cry, but I'm saying I remember that
Speaker 1: being an emotional experience for me that I was very
Speaker 1: vulnerable in. And I think a lot of black women
Speaker 1: know what I'm talking about. And so this child is
Speaker 1: sobbing while this, while this is happening, the mom is
Speaker 1: like everybody, millions of people that are going to see
Speaker 1: how you're acting right now. And the little kid is like,
Speaker 1: what do you mean? And she's like, I'm filming this,
Speaker 1: And a little girl starts crying even more, and she's like,
Speaker 1: why are you filming this? And her mom is like,
Speaker 1: I'm filming it for a hair tutorial. And even though
Speaker 1: this is a little kid, she's pretty she's pretty sharp.
Speaker 1: She says, why don't you film a hair tutorial on
Speaker 1: your own head? And it just broke my like something
Speaker 1: something about watching that video of like I remember what
Speaker 1: it was like to be in distress. Now. I'm not
Speaker 1: saying that was like a traumatic experience for her. Kids
Speaker 1: cry for all kinds of reasons all the time, right,
Speaker 1: we were all kids once, we remember, but she's clearly
Speaker 1: in distress even if it's temporary distress. And so her
Speaker 1: mom talking to the camera in this moment and being
Speaker 1: like millions of people are going to see this in
Speaker 1: the moment really just made me sad. And the mom
Speaker 1: was saying like, oh, well, like in the comments of
Speaker 1: this TikTok, she was saying like, well, I want to
Speaker 1: show other black moms out there how you deal with
Speaker 1: a stressful hair washed day or and other people who
Speaker 1: were supporting her were saying like, maybe she's looking for
Speaker 1: a community of moms and wants to build community in
Speaker 1: solidary young line. I could sort of see that, but ultimately,
Speaker 1: the number one responsibility of a parent should be to
Speaker 1: create a safe environment for your kid and all of
Speaker 1: this other stuff like I can understand maybe sort of
Speaker 1: kind of wanting to demonstrate like, oh here's how I
Speaker 1: as a black mom gets through a tough hair washing day,
Speaker 1: But those are strangers. Your responsibility when your child is
Speaker 1: in distress is to provide a safe environment for that child.
Speaker 1: Who care about these these strangers in your head? But
Speaker 1: you are thinking about entertaining or whatever via this content,
Speaker 1: And that's kind of what I'm talking about, Like, how
Speaker 1: we reached a point where folks have kind of forgotten
Speaker 1: that your number one responsibility is to your child and
Speaker 1: to create a safe environment for that child, even if
Speaker 1: that means that this community of fictional moms looking for
Speaker 1: support might have to get at someplace else, right, And
Speaker 1: I know, as you said at the beginning, there hasn't
Speaker 1: been a lot of research in this. I know I
Speaker 1: read one article about how things like this does a
Speaker 1: road like the trust a kid has and their parents,
Speaker 1: because if it's like they can kind of sense, oh, well,
Speaker 1: they're doing this for some other reason, or there might
Speaker 1: be a trick behind this, or they might be trying
Speaker 1: to manipulate a motion out of me for someone else.
Speaker 1: But also something that I wanted to go back to
Speaker 1: that you wrote about was this idea of feeling like
Speaker 1: there's an invisible audience. Yeah, this I found miss fascinating.
Speaker 1: So Lindsay Cooley, the licensed clinical child psychologist that spoke
Speaker 1: Tom Morgan sung at NBC. Coolly said that adults whose
Speaker 1: formative years were shared online may never grow out of
Speaker 1: experiencing what she described as the invisible audience. Basically, we've
Speaker 1: all kind of probably felt that the invisible audience is
Speaker 1: this kind of adolescent ideal that everybody is paying attention
Speaker 1: to you and like scrutinizing your behavior at all times. Now,
Speaker 1: most of us probably felt that way at one time
Speaker 1: or another in our lives, but we usually grow out
Speaker 1: of it as we mature and become more self aware
Speaker 1: and get a deeper sense of self. Lindsay Cooley says
Speaker 1: that kids who are always being filmed for content might
Speaker 1: have a harder time breaking out of that mindset because
Speaker 1: they essentially grew up on a stage. They grew up
Speaker 1: knowing that they had to perform and turn it on
Speaker 1: and so that is your everyday lived experience. You might
Speaker 1: have a much harder time growing out of that phase
Speaker 1: when you think that everybody's looking at you, when you
Speaker 1: are feeling like everybody is scrutinizing you and feeling like
Speaker 1: you're being perceived with eyes on you all the time.
Speaker 1: And really I can kind of understand that, like I
Speaker 1: can understand why four kids who are constantly on the
Speaker 1: stage of the Internet, why that would then be a
Speaker 1: hard thing to kind of break out of. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: that's another issue here is the issue of privacy. And
Speaker 1: as we also mentioned at the top, these parasocial relationships
Speaker 1: that people can form with children who again probably never
Speaker 1: consented to any of this, right, Yeah, that's something that
Speaker 1: I find really interesting, I guess I'll say, is this
Speaker 1: the way that adults on the internet can form these
Speaker 1: parasocial relationships with kids they don't even know, you know,
Speaker 1: And I'm the one ahead. I kind of get it, right,
Speaker 1: Like they've been let in on these very intimate relationships
Speaker 1: with these kids, and so I can understand forming a bond, right,
Speaker 1: and how that line of what is it is not
Speaker 1: appropriate and what you are and are not entitled to
Speaker 1: can become blurred. There was this mom influencer on TikTok
Speaker 1: recently who decided that she was going to stop showing
Speaker 1: her kids on social media after sort of providing quite
Speaker 1: a bit of content solely about her kids. And her
Speaker 1: followers were upset, But they weren't just like they weren't
Speaker 1: like cool as your kids do what you feel as best.
Speaker 1: They were not happy about that, and they felt really
Speaker 1: entitled to see and interact with these kids they don't
Speaker 1: even know, right, And so I remember this was around
Speaker 1: Christmas time when this influencer announced that, and one of
Speaker 1: her followers made a video that was like, can we
Speaker 1: at least see the children for Christmas, like I just
Speaker 1: want to see them for Christmas, and how they could
Speaker 1: not accept that they were not going to be able
Speaker 1: to see and interact with kids that they didn't know.
Speaker 1: And it might I don't feel like all of these
Speaker 1: people have bad intentions or anything, but it is absolutely
Speaker 1: not for an adult stranger to feel entitled to see
Speaker 1: kids that they don't even know. Like, that's just not healthy,
Speaker 1: you know. Of course I have to go real dark
Speaker 1: with it, as you're being very kind and be like
Speaker 1: these are not They just really like these kids and
Speaker 1: they think the relationship is adorable. But here's the prime
Speaker 1: example of where we can talk about grooming and what
Speaker 1: happens when these relationships or these young kids become sexualized
Speaker 1: by the audience or by the followers and not necessarily
Speaker 1: being done by the parents. That they may be completely
Speaker 1: innocent of it, thinking that they're playing cute little dress
Speaker 1: up matching mommy type of look, which is often a thing,
Speaker 1: but this becomes a real dangerous road of grooming and
Speaker 1: a sexualization of young children. Just I know there was
Speaker 1: one specific woman who went through a young girl's accounts,
Speaker 1: meaning they were probably really young, maybe with a parent
Speaker 1: showing what kind of followers these accounts had, and they
Speaker 1: are typically form a more examples like Middle Asian men
Speaker 1: commenting about how beautiful they are and how all these
Speaker 1: things are, like how good they looked in this outfit
Speaker 1: or all these things, and how concerning it is that
Speaker 1: the parents aren't realizing that compliment is not cute. It's
Speaker 1: not a cute compliment and you shouldn't sit there and
Speaker 1: like them and say thanks for supporting my child, which
Speaker 1: just been the response. And it is so dangerous when
Speaker 1: you see that this is becoming normal exactly. So, I
Speaker 1: do think that there are people out there that are
Speaker 1: just like, oh, I just love this baby, and I
Speaker 1: have slipped into an unhealthy fixation on this baby. Perhaps
Speaker 1: not badly intentioned, yes, but you are so right that
Speaker 1: that that there are people for whom they do have
Speaker 1: bad intentions. And it is about sexualization and greaming and
Speaker 1: it's gross like it like I'm what I want to
Speaker 1: talk about today is like just the tip of the
Speaker 1: iceberg with how dangerous and gross this stuff can because
Speaker 1: truly it's just like very dark. There is a trend
Speaker 1: called role playing, no not Dungeons and Dragons, role playing
Speaker 1: like that this is what people Annie and I bet
Speaker 1: you were like. So this is a this is a
Speaker 1: trend that I actually had not heard of until I
Speaker 1: researched for this episode, where people on the internet will
Speaker 1: steal photos of other people from social media and make
Speaker 1: new fake accounts of these people with like made up
Speaker 1: stories and identities. Now, sometimes this can be like mostly harmless,
Speaker 1: other than the fact that, like, it's not cool to
Speaker 1: be taking pictures of kids from the internet, but like,
Speaker 1: some people are doing this just and it's not it's
Speaker 1: not necessarily harmful. But in other cases, some of the
Speaker 1: backstories and like fictional situations involving the identity of children
Speaker 1: and the pictures that they are using are sexual. And
Speaker 1: so there's this influencer Katie Rose Pritchard. She told Good
Speaker 1: Morning America that one day that she discovered all these
Speaker 1: social media account made for each one of her kids,
Speaker 1: but they were actually strangers pretending to be her, like
Speaker 1: very young toddler children typing in like baby voice in
Speaker 1: camptions on Instagram. She told Good Mortoring America that she
Speaker 1: noticed that among these role playing posts on social media,
Speaker 1: they used hashtags like kid RP or baby RP to
Speaker 1: indicate that's what it is, and that there's like a
Speaker 1: massive community of people doing this, some of whom are
Speaker 1: describing obviously sexualized fictional situations involving her toddlers, and probably unsurprising,
Speaker 1: she was enraged and horrified, and I think, you know,
Speaker 1: there's so many different avenues to this, but one is
Speaker 1: that it's obviously a social media platform accountability issue. Katie
Speaker 1: Rose pritchards that she reached out to Instagram to have
Speaker 1: this content taken down, and that at first Instagram told
Speaker 1: her that people making fake accounts of her kids and
Speaker 1: putting them in these sexual fictional situations was not against
Speaker 1: their community guidelines, but eventually she just kept having her
Speaker 1: followers report the content and Instagram did eventually take it down.
Speaker 1: So she decided that she was going to stop posting
Speaker 1: pictures of her kids on social media, even though she
Speaker 1: was an influencer and this had resulted in brand deals
Speaker 1: and partnerships and all of that, but that it just
Speaker 1: wasn't worth it, because she was like, even though Instagram
Speaker 1: eventually did the right thing and took these pictures of
Speaker 1: my kids down, who knows where they could be. She's like,
Speaker 1: I'll never know how far their pictures traveled what dark
Speaker 1: corners of the Internet her kids images are on and
Speaker 1: that is really scary. Yeah, And you know, just to
Speaker 1: add a wrench in this whole thing is with the
Speaker 1: ideas of deep fakes and AI technology which takes straight
Speaker 1: from content from the Internet. There are so many disturbing
Speaker 1: things that's out there just knowing half of that and
Speaker 1: that being faked and what it's being used for. And
Speaker 1: again there's no loss to truly stop this. This is
Speaker 1: kind of like the freedom of speech. As long as
Speaker 1: you're not violating that child and you're doing images that
Speaker 1: resemble and say this is not truly done. All you
Speaker 1: have to do is alter something, and it can't. They
Speaker 1: can escape the log because there is no law for it.
Speaker 1: And with the realization that once you put it on
Speaker 1: the Internet, there's no ownership two ownership, as much as
Speaker 1: you would like to think there is, there's no true
Speaker 1: ownership to the content that you are posting. Yeah, to
Speaker 1: your point about deep fakes, mom Uncharted on her TikTok
Speaker 1: has talked about again it's so dark that I hate
Speaker 1: to even go there. But like there are marketplaces for
Speaker 1: deep fakes. People have been like, here's an image of
Speaker 1: a person, not always an adult. Sometimes it's a child
Speaker 1: I would like to see digitally manipulated, like AI generated
Speaker 1: images of this child in sexual situations. That is a
Speaker 1: thing that happens. And I know that it is dark.
Speaker 1: And it's like, on the one hand, you feel awful
Speaker 1: when someone's like posting a cute picture of their kid
Speaker 1: being I'm like, well, did you know that this could out?
Speaker 1: Why but on marketplace on the dark side of the Internet.
Speaker 1: But I have to say the truth. It's like, it's like,
Speaker 1: what is happening? And I think it's a reason why
Speaker 1: more and more influencers are and people in general are
Speaker 1: keeping their kids off of the Internet. Like I don't
Speaker 1: have kids, but if I was a parent, I don't
Speaker 1: think I would put my kids on social media. I
Speaker 1: just I think that with all that I now know,
Speaker 1: and I didn't always know this, I know this from
Speaker 1: research from now that I know all the different really
Speaker 1: dark up gross corners of the Internet out there, I
Speaker 1: just feel like it would be a safer bet to not, Like,
Speaker 1: I don't know what it would give me to introduce
Speaker 1: that into my kid's life. And this, you know, this
Speaker 1: is a growing thing these days. The influencer that I
Speaker 1: was just talking about, she wrote on Instagram. I can
Speaker 1: be angry at Instagram all day long and nothing will
Speaker 1: change until we change. Instagram is not to blame for
Speaker 1: the exploitation of my children. I am. They have no
Speaker 1: response ability and usually come back with we have no
Speaker 1: control over what our users posts. They simply do not care.
Speaker 1: And it's I think that Instagram is really abdigating responsibility here.
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, Katie is not wrong about
Speaker 1: this that like it really, if platforms aren't going to
Speaker 1: do anything to keep young people safe online, they should
Speaker 1: an absence of them being leaders and doing what they're
Speaker 1: supposed to be doing to keep kids safe, we have
Speaker 1: no choice but to act. And I know that that
Speaker 1: is like it should not be that way. But if
Speaker 1: platforms are going to allow but kind of dark stuff
Speaker 1: involving kids that they do allow, we have to be
Speaker 1: the ones who are making good decisions to keep our
Speaker 1: kids safe. Right Well, obviously, as you said at the
Speaker 1: very beginning, as a parent, your first responsibility is the
Speaker 1: safety of your child. It should be, and that's that's
Speaker 1: kind of the intent to begin with. And so even
Speaker 1: though yes, you may not be doing any of these
Speaker 1: dark and coable things. You're like, I've I keep talking
Speaker 1: about it, but like I have had nightmares of the
Speaker 1: darkness that happens to children, unfortunately, because of the things
Speaker 1: that I have witnessed personally, Like, that's just a thing
Speaker 1: that will always be ingrained in my head. It's terrifying,
Speaker 1: it's awful, and I hate that that's a part of
Speaker 1: my psyche and that that's part of the thing that
Speaker 1: I share with people. But it is really naive to
Speaker 1: believe that everything is sunshine and puppy dogs, because I
Speaker 1: would love that, that would be amazing. That's why I
Speaker 1: can't watch dark things because I don't want a little
Speaker 1: in that world. But I've seen it, and you know,
Speaker 1: as you've researched more things, it gets uglier and uglier.
Speaker 1: And as Instagram should be held responsible for some things,
Speaker 1: it is also again the parents' responsibility at the very
Speaker 1: jump for to protect a child. And unlike it sounds
Speaker 1: like this one influencer did an amazing job and trying
Speaker 1: to back track because you don't think about that. It's
Speaker 1: an amazing it's a great thing to not have to
Speaker 1: think about that, but to win your face with it,
Speaker 1: to realize you need to do some damage control, but
Speaker 1: there's those out there who as long as they get
Speaker 1: the money, as dark as that seems, it doesn't seem
Speaker 1: to care, and there's no law to protect the children,
Speaker 1: it seems exactly. So this is something that really bombs
Speaker 1: me out, grosses me out because you might be thinking, like,
Speaker 1: surely parents are not knowingly making money off of their
Speaker 1: kids content being served up to adult creeps. But I'm
Speaker 1: sorry to report that that is what is happening with
Speaker 1: some of these like mom run accounts. Sarah of Mom
Speaker 1: and Charged told me that she sees these mom run
Speaker 1: accounts of young girls as sensibly a platform to share
Speaker 1: their daughters like modeling pictures or like gymnastics pictures. But
Speaker 1: when you click in, as you were saying, the people
Speaker 1: who are following that page are grown men. The people
Speaker 1: who are saving the images. So if you post something
Speaker 1: on TikTok or post something on Instagram so you can
Speaker 1: see who saves it, the people saving that are grown men.
Speaker 1: And when you click into these profiles of the people following,
Speaker 1: oftentimes it's like not it doesn't take you know, a
Speaker 1: detective to see like, Okay, this is an image of
Speaker 1: a grown man. Who are they following accounts like hot
Speaker 1: young bikini girls things like that, like it's pretty clear
Speaker 1: what's going on. And then these men will leave comments
Speaker 1: on pictures of their kids that are like wow, what
Speaker 1: a hot picture, and mom will go in and like
Speaker 1: that comment, right, And so it's sort of this weird
Speaker 1: thing where it's done under this kind of like plausible
Speaker 1: deniability of like, oh, it's just a modeling page, like
Speaker 1: you're the one sexualizing my kid, but come on, like
Speaker 1: you you know what this is. I've even seen some
Speaker 1: of these accounts go so far as to sell images
Speaker 1: of like you want to buy a photo set of
Speaker 1: my daughter's gymnastic pictures, or even by their used clothing,
Speaker 1: like we know, like we all see what's happening. They
Speaker 1: can they can hide behind this is a modeling thing,
Speaker 1: you know, this is you know whatever, it's clear what's
Speaker 1: going on. You are making money from exploiting your kid,
Speaker 1: and that is just what's happening. I think at the
Speaker 1: very least, let's just call it what it is. Don't
Speaker 1: dance around it, don't use this plausible deniability. Everyone knows
Speaker 1: what's going on. Cut the crap, you know. We recently
Speaker 1: did an episode on YouTube and this is a very
Speaker 1: similar situation happening where there are videos of young kids,
Speaker 1: mostly young girls, and getting several comments like this from
Speaker 1: grown men. And as we've been alluding to this whole time,
Speaker 1: there aren't specific laws in place to protect kids from this. Correct,
Speaker 1: that's right, and so when you think about it, it's
Speaker 1: kind of weird. There's not right. Like when it comes
Speaker 1: to kids making money off of their labor. We have
Speaker 1: all kinds of rules and policies and regulations in place
Speaker 1: here in the United States. You know, media companies that
Speaker 1: work with kids for like films or commercials or modeling
Speaker 1: or whatever, they have very strict labor laws like I
Speaker 1: used to do, like child modeling and child acting when
Speaker 1: I was a kid. Like they have very very specific
Speaker 1: labor laws. But the Fair Labor Standards Act, a nineteen
Speaker 1: thirty eight law that addresses excessive child labor, and the
Speaker 1: California Coogan Act, which protects child actors. Neither of those
Speaker 1: have been updated to include children online, like the children
Speaker 1: of influencers, children who are being used as content. And
Speaker 1: so it is definitely a situation where our technology has
Speaker 1: advanced quicker than our laws have because they're currently zero
Speaker 1: laws that in the United States that regulate how children
Speaker 1: work on social media and how they can appear in
Speaker 1: ads on social media that generate money, but that actually
Speaker 1: might be changing soon. Organ Sung reported that an eighteen
Speaker 1: year old college student named Chris McCarty wanted to advocate
Speaker 1: for kids rights to privacy after learning about that influencer
Speaker 1: Mica Stelfer, the one who you might recall we were
Speaker 1: just talking about, she wanted to adopt a special needs child.
Speaker 1: She did adopt that child, extensively shared intimate content about
Speaker 1: the health needs of her adoptive child before deciding that
Speaker 1: those medical needs were too much and having him quote rehomed.
Speaker 1: As she put it, well, that inspired Chris McCarty to
Speaker 1: start advocating for the way that kids are used online
Speaker 1: and like advocating for protections for these kids. McCarty started
Speaker 1: the site Quit Clicking Kids, which is described as an
Speaker 1: advocacy and education site to combat the monetization of children
Speaker 1: on social media. And when Chris was a senior, they
Speaker 1: cold emailed like a bunch of lawmakers and eventually ended
Speaker 1: up working with Representative Emily Wis to craft HB sixteen
Speaker 1: twenty seven, which is a bill that would protect quote
Speaker 1: the interests of minor children featured on for profit family
Speaker 1: vlogs by requiring the parents of kid influencers to set
Speaker 1: aside part of that revenue from their content into a
Speaker 1: separate fund so that their kids can access them into adulthood.
Speaker 1: And it would also grant the children of influencers the
Speaker 1: right to request the permanent deletion of their likenesses, names,
Speaker 1: or photos from any Internet platform or network that provided
Speaker 1: compensation to the individual's parent or parents in exchange for
Speaker 1: that content, and so platforms under this new legislation, platforms
Speaker 1: would have to take reasonable steps to permanently delete video
Speaker 1: segments of such children. That was one of the things
Speaker 1: that like in researching for this episode and reading the
Speaker 1: accounts of young people who were the used solely, like
Speaker 1: they were the sole focus of their parents content. One
Speaker 1: of the things that they say is I can't delete
Speaker 1: it from me. I had no choice in the matter.
Speaker 1: I was not able to consent. And now when you
Speaker 1: google my name, all this stuff, intimate stuff comes up
Speaker 1: about me, intimate stuff about my health, my body, my life,
Speaker 1: all comes up, and there is no way to remove it.
Speaker 1: And so I don't know how this legislation will shake out.
Speaker 1: I'll keep you posted. But I do think it's it's
Speaker 1: time that we really had our laws and our norms
Speaker 1: catch up with where we are technologically. And I think,
Speaker 1: you know, I think I think it's time. You would
Speaker 1: think that we would have learned through the child actors stuff,
Speaker 1: all the young actresses that had either that money stolen
Speaker 1: or gone through so much abuse, all those things that
Speaker 1: you would you would have thought, yeah, we would learn
Speaker 1: from those mistakes because some of these young kids making
Speaker 1: multi millions of dollars, so that you would think that
Speaker 1: with that kind of revenue, which is which is rare,
Speaker 1: But those are the ones who arguing the money, are
Speaker 1: the younger kids at this point in time, that we
Speaker 1: would actually found a way by now that would protect
Speaker 1: these kids, because inevitably they're the ones who kind of
Speaker 1: bring it to bring it to as it is, like
Speaker 1: we're not. It's not the older people who are creating
Speaker 1: these new things and new new trends and new ways
Speaker 1: of communicating, as the younger kids who are doing this
Speaker 1: and learning how to do it better and or being
Speaker 1: used for it like it's one of those things. They're
Speaker 1: like it should be for them, So why wouldn't it
Speaker 1: are automatically protect them exactly. Like I love cute kids
Speaker 1: on the Internet as much as anybody else in a
Speaker 1: healthy way. But like corn Kid, I don't know if
Speaker 1: you guys remember corn Kid. He was this like adorable
Speaker 1: little kid who was interviewed at a state fair eating
Speaker 1: corn and he was like when I had it with butter,
Speaker 1: everything changed and he was like an overnight sensation. And
Speaker 1: I remember thinking like, oh, what happened to corn Kid?
Speaker 1: How's he doing? And Corn Kid is quote retired, and
Speaker 1: I just loved that, you know, somebody in his life
Speaker 1: was like, hey, this we've had this overnight unexpected viral fame,
Speaker 1: but you could retire. You know, this doesn't have to
Speaker 1: be something that you, you know, do, This doesn't have
Speaker 1: to be something I think I think I did say
Speaker 1: that he was on cameo, But this doesn't have to
Speaker 1: be something that you, you know, make your entire identity
Speaker 1: and you're just a kid, you don't you don't have to,
Speaker 1: you know, decide to go into internet social media stardom,
Speaker 1: entertaining strangers because you had this one viral moment. And
Speaker 1: so I really that really heartened me to see that
Speaker 1: somebody in his life gave him the space and the
Speaker 1: language of being like, oh yeah, I'm retired as corn
Speaker 1: kid to make a choice for himself and protect his
Speaker 1: protect his identity a little bit, protect protect his peace,
Speaker 1: because I do think, like, yeah, the Internet is forever,
Speaker 1: and I really feel for these kids who don't get
Speaker 1: a choice in becoming these Internet stars and have to
Speaker 1: live with it for life. And I think, you know,
Speaker 1: I do think the tide is turning a little bit.
Speaker 1: I think that we're seeing more and more one more
Speaker 1: and more children who were used in this way as
Speaker 1: content speaking up about what that experience was like for them.
Speaker 1: And I think we're seeing more and more influencers stop
Speaker 1: showing their kids on social media or do so in
Speaker 1: ways we're a little bit more thoughtful. Right, So you'll
Speaker 1: see influencers not showing their kids face or including their
Speaker 1: kids in their content, but just showing their hands at
Speaker 1: the back of their head, so that it's not just
Speaker 1: you know, performing on command for the entertainment and monetization
Speaker 1: of your platform. Right. And you know, I think people
Speaker 1: took a page out of these big celebrities who realize
Speaker 1: who lived in the limelight. We're like, we're not putting
Speaker 1: our children through that and go through everything to try
Speaker 1: to cover at least like protect their identities. And I've
Speaker 1: done so much better recently, I mean not some, but
Speaker 1: you know, and then they're learning this could be really damaging,
Speaker 1: like you said, and that core and kid so cute.
Speaker 1: He literally I think they asked him much later after
Speaker 1: everything we viral, like what do your friends think of that?
Speaker 1: And they're like, my friends don't know. They don't know
Speaker 1: anything about this because the parents did such a great
Speaker 1: job in keeping them isolated away from all of that
Speaker 1: because they didn't want him to be scrutinized, made fun
Speaker 1: of or any of that. Because so many any of
Speaker 1: them because he kind of I guess is it a
Speaker 1: mame was the amazing I guess maybe eventually became that
Speaker 1: that so many of those goods who were gifts or
Speaker 1: memes were really humiliated as adults. Yeah, Like I think
Speaker 1: it was BuzzFeed doing a series of what happened after
Speaker 1: these people became memes. They actually have a really good one.
Speaker 1: If you remember the girl this is gonna maybe date
Speaker 1: me and people who are younger gonna be like, what
Speaker 1: are you talking about? The girl who was photographed with
Speaker 1: pigtails and a headgear, holding goosebumps books, if you if
Speaker 1: she is a very her story is very fascinating. But yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like these these people that we see on the Internet,
Speaker 1: and because we're engaging with them through a screen, we
Speaker 1: can kind of forget that they're real people who have
Speaker 1: to go on to live real lives in the real world,
Speaker 1: or they don't just exist frozen in time in this
Speaker 1: meme where we first encountered them. They are real people. Yeah, her, Well,
Speaker 1: as always, this has been so informative, Bridget, thanks for
Speaker 1: bringing it to our attention. Thanks for making the time
Speaker 1: to come on, and I'm sure we'll update on this
Speaker 1: one because clearly we all have a lot of thoughts
Speaker 1: about this, so would love to come back to this one. Well,
Speaker 1: where can the good listeners find you? Well, you can
Speaker 1: find me over at my own podcast. There are no
Speaker 1: girls on the Internet. The episode that we did with
Speaker 1: mom uncharted super interesting. She's just a really interesting person.
Speaker 1: I would definitely recommend checking it out. Can follow me
Speaker 1: on Twitter at Bridget Marie, on Instagram at Bridget Marie
Speaker 1: in DC, or on TikTok at Bridget Mixed Podcasts. Yes,
Speaker 1: love it, love it go check all of those things
Speaker 1: out if you haven't already, listeners, and yes, thank you again,
Speaker 1: Bridget can't wait to do this again next month. Update
Speaker 1: on the food as well. Yeah, maybe we'll do it
Speaker 1: from Mexico City, but you all come visit. Oh I
Speaker 1: would love it. I just heard an invitation. I'm coming.
Speaker 1: The bags are getting backed, the bags are getting parted
Speaker 1: in Mexico. Oh, I can't wait. Well, Listeners, If you
Speaker 1: would like to contact us that you can our emails,
Speaker 1: stuff mediamil, stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find
Speaker 1: us on Twitter at Months of Podcast or Instagram and
Speaker 1: TikTok at stuff I Ever told You. Thanks as always
Speaker 1: to our super producer Christina the best, the best, and
Speaker 1: thanks to you for listening. Stuff one Ever told You.
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