1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives. 4 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: He just walked around shot all the black people. The 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 1: cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure 6 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: out how to go on and how to compete. I 7 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: wanted to win for them more than anything this season. 8 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app, 9 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and 10 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas, 11 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 1: it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find 12 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt 13 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the 14 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality, 15 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious. 16 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: I would call him and I would say, I know 17 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl 18 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 19 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Hello, Hello, Maltain Globo. Here this year 20 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:15,639 Speaker 1: on revisionist History, we're tackling more ambitious stories than ever, 21 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: from how to fix education to what Americans get completely 22 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: wrong about guns. We're debating with teenagers handing out awards 23 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: and hunting for the perfect medical raccoon. This is, after all, 24 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: a podcast about you overlooked and missunderstood. Find Revisionist history 25 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get 26 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: your podcasts from iHeart podcasts. These are the whistleblowers. I 27 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: wasn't just consent silently by. Somebody needs to just give 28 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: everybody the whole truth. You take your question in black 29 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: sale and get it on a bottom off as if 30 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: you speak out, you will pay. You should be prosecure 31 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: when power corrupts, conscience is the last line of defense. 32 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: I'm Miles Taylor. Listen to the Whistleblowers every Thursday on 33 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:08,839 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 34 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:12,239 Speaker 1: This is the Piked and Massacre returned to Pike County 35 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: season two bonus episode Crime and Media. I'm Courtney Armstrong, 36 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 1: a television producer at Katie Studios with Jeff Shane and 37 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 1: Stephanie Lydecker, CEO and founder of Katie Studios and producer 38 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 1: of the piked and massacre. Over the course of the 39 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: last decade, true crime is exploded as the go to 40 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 1: genre across media platforms, and telling the story of the 41 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:39,079 Speaker 1: Rodent family and their murders, We've often asked ourselves, why 42 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 1: are we, as creators of this series so interested in 43 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 1: the story and why are you the listener so fascinated 44 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 1: by it? So we gathered a group of experts to 45 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:50,959 Speaker 1: explore these questions and ask ourselves, is it a crime 46 00:02:51,040 --> 00:03:01,239 Speaker 1: to love true crime? The True Crime podcast audience is 47 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: seventy five percent women. That's kind of an astounding stat right. Well, 48 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 1: I think as women, we are more socialized to know 49 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: that the world could be a dangerous and unsafe place. 50 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 1: That's doctor Heidi Horsley. She's a psychologist specializing in grief 51 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:18,239 Speaker 1: counseling and as co founder of the Open to Hope Foundation. Well, 52 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: constantly looking up at our backs, being very aware of 53 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,639 Speaker 1: our surroundings, not being you know, in alleys at night. 54 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 1: You know, we're very, very aware that we could be victimized. 55 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: So I think it's that And I also think women 56 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: are very social, We're very connected, we want to understand 57 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: other people. I think we tend to be very people 58 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: oriented and maybe in family oriented. I'm not saying men aren't, 59 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: but oftentimes women are even more so. Maybe that's part 60 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: of it as well, like protecting our pack. It's an 61 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:51,119 Speaker 1: interesting thing because I hadn't realized the true crime audience 62 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: was quite as skewed towards women as it is. And 63 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: I'm certainly a watcher also, and I think it allows 64 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: us to feel too, you know, we see something that's 65 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: like love based or makes us laugh. You know, films 66 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: get to make us feel things that maybe we don't 67 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: necessarily want to feel. Jeff, as a man, what do 68 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: you think about that? It's definitely a different experience being 69 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 1: a man, Like I don't have to look over my 70 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: shoulder in the same way after a certain age. I 71 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,479 Speaker 1: think for most men, you're not prone to being a victim. 72 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:20,719 Speaker 1: And I can walk through a parking lot without fear, 73 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: which I think is a privilege that I have not 74 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:27,040 Speaker 1: fully appreciated until working with Courtney and stuff on crime projects. 75 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 1: So being aware of that privilege I think has been 76 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: eye opening. And I think putting myself in your shoes 77 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 1: and listening to a podcast, I would be like, oh, yeah, 78 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:35,919 Speaker 1: that's a red flag, Like you could see how a 79 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:39,280 Speaker 1: toxic relationship between Jake and Hannah or however you describe it. 80 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 1: What can you learn from that? It's way easy to 81 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: spot things in other people's lives in our own too, 82 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 1: you know. So there is a real tool from that. 83 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 1: We could look at anybody and say, oh, I see 84 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:51,159 Speaker 1: the red flag there, and is that bad from a 85 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:53,839 Speaker 1: psychological you know, even for listeners who are listening to 86 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 1: this driving on their way to work or you know, 87 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: doing whatever it is we do when we hear a podcast. 88 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: Is it because as we are desperate to hear other 89 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 1: people's bad stuff because our lives feel better? I don't 90 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 1: think so. I think it's people are desperate to hear 91 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 1: really extreme tales because it helps us categorize things in 92 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,919 Speaker 1: our own life and maybe look out for things differently, 93 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 1: because when you're in the thick of it, it's really 94 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: hard to see out of trouble. You know. Sometimes we 95 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: don't spot it as cleanly in our own lives. Journalists 96 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:30,600 Speaker 1: Chris Graves covered the road and murders for the Cincinnati Enquirer. 97 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 1: She was in Pike County just days after the Rodents 98 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: were murdered in twenty sixteen. Her reporting was important and 99 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: giving a voice to the victims families. In the early 100 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: days of the investigation, Chris gave us her frank assessment 101 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:44,720 Speaker 1: on the rise in true crime content. You know, this 102 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:49,919 Speaker 1: will sound really, really basic, but I think you start 103 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: from a place if this were me, how would I 104 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: want to be treated. We have to rise above the 105 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 1: tiny story that just hurts people, you know, the showing 106 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: up and jamming the microphone in somebody's face, And how 107 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 1: do you feel? And I mean, if I were going 108 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: to be completely candid, I think constantly thinking, you know, 109 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: is it information or is it entertainment? We have to 110 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: figure out a way to move beyond that salacious entertainment whatever. 111 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 1: They're fascinating, deep stories to be told, and Lord only knows. 112 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: This story has so many elements of storytime. But there's 113 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 1: a way in which you can tell it. I hope, 114 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 1: I hope without taking advantage of people. You know, we 115 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 1: did go to Pike County, and you know, to your point, 116 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: knock on doors without a microphone, without a camera for 117 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 1: all the obvious reasons, and it is it's it's hard 118 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: on the heart. We do try to be thoughtful, knowing 119 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 1: that that would be really difficult if it were my 120 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: door that somebody was knocking on. But I don't know. 121 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 1: I don't know what the answer is there. If nobody 122 00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:59,160 Speaker 1: hears it, then also we're not doing our job either. 123 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 1: You say entertainment, we have a standoff in that because 124 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: I don't really see it as entertainment. I also think 125 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 1: bigness is sometimes we're in the emotion business. Right, It's 126 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: almost like a shout from the rooftop of hear this, 127 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 1: see this happened. This is a time stamp on something. 128 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: And what's the balance done of that? How do you 129 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 1: balance being respectful of people's lives and also people want 130 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 1: to know every detail of the story. How do you 131 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: balance that in terms of making it respectful to what happened, 132 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: but also allowing people to consume it and take that in. Yeah, 133 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 1: that's a good question. I think you try to, you know, 134 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 1: while using finding fact, I think you also try to 135 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 1: approach people with compassion and empathy. Focus on the person's life, 136 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: you know, be accurate. There's nothing worse than getting stuff wrong, 137 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: especially with someone who doesn't have a voice anymore. Avoid 138 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 1: worry details just because they're gory. Do they need to 139 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: see that? Will it cause unnecessary harm? To people, will 140 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: I revictimize people, But the gory details, to some extent, 141 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 1: is what differentiates one thing from another. In the spirit 142 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: of making sure that people are being emotionally charged and 143 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: mad as hell? Is that wrong? It is extraordinarily a 144 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: gory case. There was three children left alive at the 145 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: scene and very hideous circumstances. Imagine a four day old 146 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: being in her mother's arms while she's shot two times 147 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: in the face. Right, we know that is disgusting. But 148 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 1: some of this is shocking, and if you don't feel shocked, 149 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: then you don't hear the story. How much is too 150 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:47,559 Speaker 1: much in terms of sharing and oversharing the gory. So 151 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: I think my point in saying that is being careful 152 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:55,679 Speaker 1: that we don't just report for lurid curiosity. Some of 153 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:58,680 Speaker 1: that is also making sure that they hold the power 154 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 1: in the interview. And I'm not talking about politicians, but 155 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: those who get thrust into this horror through no fault 156 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 1: of their own, and they deserve that power and that voice. 157 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 1: And I see myself just sort of as a conduit. 158 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: You know, I'm an ear and I'm a conduit, and 159 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: I tried to share a story, hopefully in an empathetic, 160 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 1: compassionate way. But your approach matters a lot. Chris. I 161 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 1: just want to say something about approach because I completely 162 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: agree with what you're saying. And the flip side of 163 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:34,199 Speaker 1: all of this is when I work with the nine 164 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 1: to eleven families for ten years, initially after the nine 165 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:42,719 Speaker 1: to eleven events, the media descended on people and they 166 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: did not show up knocking on doors, They hid in bushes, 167 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: They were intrusive and invasive. They wanted to catch the 168 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 1: families that I worked with in their most vulnerable positions, 169 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,680 Speaker 1: and it was extremely overwhelming for the families and it 170 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 1: wasn't helpful in many cases, not in all cases, because 171 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 1: there were people that were there for good reasons, but 172 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 1: there were other people that just wanted to get the story. 173 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: And then we knew it. We ought to be asking 174 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 1: all the time, you know, what are we doing? Where 175 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 1: are we at? I guess my challenge to all of 176 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:18,959 Speaker 1: us doing this work is to think about minimizing harm 177 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: and what does that mean? And it doesn't you know, 178 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: I also want to be clear that that doesn't mean 179 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 1: that sometimes when I'm interviewing people, I'm sure I'm causing 180 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 1: some harm. I'm asking people to relive and tell me 181 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: where they've gone and what they've experienced. When I did 182 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 1: the interview with Bobby Joe and certainly went into fairly 183 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 1: graphic detail about what she found. Now, again I tell 184 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: you I didn't write everything, but I thought, you know, 185 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: in that balance, and it's that constant balance all the time, 186 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 1: how much is too much, what isn't enough? You know, 187 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 1: I thought her description of bending over the bodies, you know, 188 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: of Frankie and Hannah Hazel to get the baby was compelling. 189 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: But my point in saying that is I thought that 190 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 1: scene said more than just the gory detail in my 191 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 1: way of thinking, like, Okay, she comes upon this, You've 192 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 1: got two people who are obviously you know, shot multiple times. 193 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 1: I mean, she didn't tell me that, but the way 194 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 1: she described it sounded like that. But yet they leave 195 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: the baby alive. Huh isn't that interesting? So that to 196 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: me was I mean? And again I didn't put it 197 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 1: in just because it's you know, wow, that's a really 198 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: interesting thing, and boy, I could be you know, it 199 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 1: is interesting, but I think it's interesting in what it 200 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 1: says about at the time, what it said about the 201 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,680 Speaker 1: killers that you know, they didn't kill everybody, and what's 202 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 1: up with that? Why would they do that? So either 203 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:03,719 Speaker 1: the person wiam was absolutely one hundred percent monster or 204 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:06,319 Speaker 1: it had to have been somebody who knew them who 205 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: couldn't kill a child. So what does that say? That 206 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 1: is the story that I think, certainly for myself personally, 207 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: really tipped me over. The sheer horror of putting yourself 208 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 1: in Bobby Joe Manley's shoes, even if it's a stretch 209 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 1: to be able to do so, I can't imagine anything 210 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: more hideous, right, And of course we put ourselves in 211 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 1: that position very quickly and realize, wow, that is something 212 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:28,839 Speaker 1: that's really hard to come back from. And maybe had 213 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 1: you not reported about it, I wouldn't personally be as 214 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:33,559 Speaker 1: mad as hell as I am about it, right, and 215 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: we wouldn't feel as hyper connected to the victims and 216 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 1: the victims families. Certainly, if you're not a relative, or 217 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: you're not from the hometown of the exact same place, 218 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: you know you have a different perspective coming into it 219 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: where you could step in and say, well, that doesn't 220 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: really add up. Why would a cartel hit equal babies 221 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 1: alive and dogs alive? That doesn't really seem like the 222 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 1: mo But again, if you're super close to it, it's 223 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 1: hard to see that potentially, And I would applaud that 224 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: as an example of something that makes people emotionally get 225 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: attached to making sure that justice is served. What you're saying, 226 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: it's so important. I mean, we need to get people 227 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: to care enough to care. And the way you do 228 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 1: that is to bring them through these stories into that 229 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 1: into that wall, capturing the moment, and bring the listeners 230 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:21,839 Speaker 1: into that moment so they can kind of visualize them 231 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 1: be there and like you said, Stephanie, be angry as hell, 232 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: and you're creating awareness and you know, you're building a 233 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: platform for the story and in the long run, creating change. 234 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break here. We'll be 235 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: back in a moment. Oh. I'm Carol Fisher and I'm 236 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. Back in the nineteen 237 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 1: nineties in Las Vegas, a few of us dated the 238 00:13:55,400 --> 00:14:01,679 Speaker 1: most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. He's several languages, he 239 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:06,839 Speaker 1: did medical missionary work, and he was Jewish. He was 240 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 1: perfect on paper, but he wasn't. He really wasn't. He 241 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: shouted and to the point she went unconscious. Bob could 242 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: lie about anything, but only takes the one time when 243 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us girlfriends know 244 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 1: how to fight back. I wanted him to pay for 245 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 1: his crime. He needed to be put to justice. I'll 246 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: be honest with you. If I saw him right now, 247 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: I'd spit on him. I would call him and I 248 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: would say, I know you killed my sister. I will 249 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to 250 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 1: the Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever 251 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. She's a Hollywood Western. She's Jack Harrouac, 252 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 1: but in a nap dress with braids. She is one 253 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 1: of the most important American children's authors of the twentieth century. 254 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 1: She's the basis for a television show still watched around 255 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 1: the world. Somebody somewhere is watching A Little Less than 256 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 1: the Room. She's been called a hero, a racist, a feminist, 257 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: and a propagandist. I think the harm is too great 258 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: because it's just one more thing that Native children have 259 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: to endure. She is Laura Ingles Wilder, author of the 260 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 1: book series Little House on the Prairie. As a kid, 261 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 1: I idolized Laura, and last summer I went on the 262 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 1: road in search of the real Laura. We're literally on 263 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:38,359 Speaker 1: the prairie. What I found was a complicated person alongside 264 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: the complicated country she represents. I'm Glennis McNicol and this 265 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 1: is Wilder. Listen to Wilder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, 266 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. LA's reputation not so great. 267 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 1: People from LA will have a very superficial, nice conversation 268 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: with you, and they won't lift a finger to help you. 269 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 1: To LA, people represent vapidity, stops that like oh the 270 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: best calls like oh Shoot. As someone born and raised here, 271 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 1: I can tell you there's much more to LA than this. 272 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: My name is James Kim, and I'm the creator of 273 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: a new anthology fiction podcast, call You Feeling This. It's 274 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 1: ten different stories about La and the real people who 275 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: make up this city. What up? Did you listen to 276 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 1: my message? Who were just trying to get bought? I 277 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: think I was just freaking out because I'm scared by 278 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: connecting with each other. I'm going to be a father. 279 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: Ye Are you Feeling This? A fiction podcast mixtape about love? 280 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: Listen to it on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or 281 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcast in our twenty two years 282 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: of friendship, Andy, this has to be the most bizarre 283 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: thing we've ever done. I know, I love it. Our 284 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 1: Podcastagina said, what is a podcast where we ask our 285 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: everyday Vagina listeners to pull up a seat at the 286 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: best Friend's table as we share our most personal and 287 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:12,159 Speaker 1: humiliating stories and ask questions about women's bodies. We are 288 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 1: going to discuss all body things like what exactly are 289 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: we supposed to do with our pubs? Oh my gosh, 290 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: if you could have a heart shaped pube that were 291 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: bedazzled in pink rubies, or perimenopause, I feel right now justified. 292 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:31,679 Speaker 1: I'm going to start my own personal movement. I'm going 293 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:34,719 Speaker 1: to start blaming anything that goes wrong in my life 294 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 1: on perimenopause, leg hair too long, don't have the will 295 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 1: to clean, perrymnopause exactly, our whack periods, boob issues, and 296 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:49,159 Speaker 1: so much more. Listen to my Vagina said? What podcasts 297 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get 298 00:17:52,480 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: your podcasts? What? Reporter Angeinette Levy and forensics expert Joseph 299 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 1: Morgan joined the conversation what compels you in terms of 300 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 1: getting to the bottom of stories and telling stories that 301 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: happened to people. I've never been satisfied until I know 302 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:19,199 Speaker 1: every detail, and I think that I always want to 303 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 1: know what happened and make sure that I know the 304 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 1: true story of what happened. You know, so many times 305 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: share are stories where you don't know what happened, you 306 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,239 Speaker 1: don't know the truth, or you feel like you know 307 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 1: the truth but not the whole truth. And that was 308 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:35,400 Speaker 1: one of the things for me, and especially with this case, 309 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 1: one of the things that we're just so awful. You know, 310 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 1: we cover awful things in this business. We don't go 311 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 1: to work every day and get to do happy stories. 312 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 1: Most of the time it's something sad or something serious, 313 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 1: And I just think it's sad enough when one person 314 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 1: is killed in a story, but to have eight people 315 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:57,440 Speaker 1: killed all in one night, eight people in one family, 316 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,719 Speaker 1: To have one family wiped out with little kids, a baby, 317 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:05,879 Speaker 1: a newborn baby sleeping right next to her mother, is sick. 318 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 1: And I think that it was a different kind of 319 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 1: case in that respect, because people should be able to 320 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: lay in their homes at night next to their children 321 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 1: and not fear being shot in the head or killed 322 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 1: or shot in any way. You know that it's just 323 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: it goes against every kind of human feeling I have 324 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 1: as a human being that we should be treating each 325 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 1: other with kindness and humanities. You know, I got into 326 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,640 Speaker 1: this business to tell true stories and to make a difference. So, 327 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: you know, I always try to go the extra mile, 328 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 1: and this case was you know, just particularly horrifying. And 329 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 1: you can't let your emotions like influence how you tell 330 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: this story that you have to bring some humanity to it. Chris, 331 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: why did you become a journalist and specifically in true crime? 332 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: I like finding out information. I think I'm insatiably curious 333 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 1: and I like to find out, you know, why things 334 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,399 Speaker 1: happen and how they happen. I'm a big why and 335 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 1: how a person and the thrill of finding out information. 336 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 1: What can I do in a day? I just started 337 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:18,160 Speaker 1: covering it. This world of knowledge that different pieces of 338 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 1: people can figure out to me and they can piece 339 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 1: it together and they can and then there's justice, right, 340 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 1: and then you use all of that for the you know, 341 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 1: seeking of justice and how the systems work is really 342 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: interesting to me. How things work, how the court system works, 343 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:36,399 Speaker 1: Why what's going to happen? What do they need to 344 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: prove is all. It's all part of the same sort 345 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: of ingredients in the soup. I think, Joseph, how did 346 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:44,639 Speaker 1: you get into this line of business? What made you 347 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 1: grow up and say I want to be a medical 348 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: death examiner? For me, it was fascinating. You see it 349 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:54,680 Speaker 1: from the perspective of all the peripheral issues that come 350 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,920 Speaker 1: up that you see what's left behind in their weight, 351 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: you know, the life that they live, what's in their 352 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:05,160 Speaker 1: chest of drawers at home, what's sitting beside the chair 353 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:07,920 Speaker 1: the daddy sat in all the time, the lazy boy 354 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:09,919 Speaker 1: in front of the TV. You know, the little table 355 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:12,879 Speaker 1: there where he kept his pipe, or maybe what was 356 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 1: mama hiding in the kitchen cabinets? Stuff that people don't see. 357 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,159 Speaker 1: And I think this goes back to this bigger issue. 358 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:21,360 Speaker 1: The reason I think that this is self compelling with 359 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:25,679 Speaker 1: all of these other cases, and it's dictated by geography, 360 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:29,119 Speaker 1: it's dictated by the personality of a place pipe. Then 361 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:34,119 Speaker 1: Pike County it has it is in this story, in 362 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:38,120 Speaker 1: the story of these lives lost's it is a character. 363 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 1: What is our obsession with true crime as those who 364 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 1: follow it closely and dedicate our careers to it. What's 365 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,679 Speaker 1: up with that. We're storytellers, I mean back from the 366 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: beginning of time, right, I mean and even Caveman time, 367 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 1: we were drawing pictographs to communicate. So we have a 368 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: human desire to communicate and they're compelling stories. Something bad 369 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 1: happened and we want to find I think we're seekers 370 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,919 Speaker 1: of truth or seekers of fact. How did this happen? 371 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: That's why we rubber neck at car accidents. And truthfully, 372 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,879 Speaker 1: it's the classic good versus evil, right, good and bad. 373 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 1: I think that's what draws us to things. I mean 374 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,879 Speaker 1: religious text, I mean most novels. Most I mean, you 375 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 1: know there's there's a protagonist and an antagonist. Also, something 376 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 1: I was reading too about why people love true crime 377 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 1: is the adrenaline rush of it that you get this 378 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: kind of your heart rate rises and you feel like 379 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: what you feel like when you go on a roller coaster. No, 380 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 1: I agree with you, Jeff. I think that listening to 381 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 1: true crime, we're going on the trip. We're taking the 382 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: trip with people. You know, we might be just watching it, 383 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,879 Speaker 1: but like you said, our heart races, we get anxious. 384 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it takes us into those spaces 385 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 1: and it does give us in the Drone mush. I 386 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 1: come here through my own story and my own trauma. 387 00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 1: So you know, I don't know other people's stories. But 388 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: you know, my brother and cousin dried traumatically when the 389 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:05,159 Speaker 1: car they were driving at seventeen years old blew up. 390 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:10,119 Speaker 1: And I was extremely traumatized by the way that they died, 391 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:14,159 Speaker 1: how they died, and took my own journey. I was 392 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,719 Speaker 1: in a very dark existential place and took my journey 393 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: from the darkness into the light. And you know, use 394 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: what helped me to help other people. You know, I 395 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 1: worked her firefighter families for ten years. After nine eleven, 396 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 1: the same families watch them heal. And research shows that 397 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 1: peer support is one of the main things that help 398 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 1: people after traumatic losses. And you know, like you said, 399 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: listening to other people who have had traumatic losses and 400 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,919 Speaker 1: not only survived but thrived helps us. And it also 401 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 1: helps people. It normalizes people's experiences when they're going through 402 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 1: traumatic loss to hear other people that have been there, 403 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: even if the losses are different. You know, I also 404 00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,879 Speaker 1: think we're a little obsessed with death right. It's like 405 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: one of the few things that we all can agree on. 406 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,119 Speaker 1: We are all are going to die at some point, 407 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: and the circumstances by which we do is very unknowable 408 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 1: for the most part. And listen, we know we're going 409 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 1: to have There's always going to be life, and there's 410 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:15,679 Speaker 1: always going to be death. And how we die and 411 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,239 Speaker 1: the circumstances is something that I have to assume is 412 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 1: slightly intrinsic for all of us to be curious about. 413 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: I agree with that. I think that every single time 414 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 1: somebody dies, you're staring at your own mortality. I think 415 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,920 Speaker 1: that's why death is so difficult. Like you said, this 416 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: puts every time you read and hear about these kind 417 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 1: of things like the pipe to massacres, you think about 418 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:43,239 Speaker 1: your own mortality, your own safety, your own death. You 419 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 1: know it just you start to obsess and think about 420 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:54,920 Speaker 1: all these things. And I think that's pretty normal. Let's 421 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 1: stop here for another quick break. We'll be back in 422 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:05,159 Speaker 1: a moment. Oh. I'm Carol Fisher, and I'm hosting a 423 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: podcast called The Girl Friends. Back in the nineteen nineties 424 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 1: in Las Vegas, a few of us dated the most 425 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:17,439 Speaker 1: eligible bachelor in town, Bob. He spoke several languages, he 426 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:22,639 Speaker 1: did medical missionary work, and he was Jewish. He was 427 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:27,359 Speaker 1: perfect on paper, but he wasn't. He really wasn't, he 428 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 1: shouted into the point she went unconscious. Bob could lie 429 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:36,160 Speaker 1: about anything, but only takes the one time when somebody 430 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 1: ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us girlfriends know how 431 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 1: to fight back. I wanted him to pay for his crime. 432 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: He needed to be put to justice. I'll be honest 433 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 1: with you. If I saw him right now, I'd spit 434 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: on him. I would call him and I would say, 435 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: I know you killed my sister. I will always hound 436 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,160 Speaker 1: you and haunt you. You can listen to the Girlfriends 437 00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get 438 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,439 Speaker 1: your podcasts. Everybody. We know there are a ton of 439 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: podcasts out there. Well, we have one we would love 440 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:07,880 Speaker 1: for you to check out. It is called The pen 441 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: Pals Podcast with Daniel Van Kirk and Rory Scobell. We 442 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,679 Speaker 1: are both stand up comedians where actors were writers, but 443 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,360 Speaker 1: now most of all, we are your pen pals. Every 444 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,639 Speaker 1: single episode we get two letters that we read from 445 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 1: our listeners, our new pen pals. It can be about 446 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: anything going on in their life and sometimes we're also 447 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,159 Speaker 1: joined by guests like Will Farrell, You're gonna bring you 448 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: up in front of the group. I'm gonna punch you 449 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: as hard as I can in the stomach. Rose Burn, 450 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 1: this is West Hollywood. We keep it clean. Jo Is 451 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 1: that considered? Brian, I'm just showing you that my mind 452 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: is quick, if not that funny. And Mandy Moore, We're 453 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,160 Speaker 1: all crossing the line together. Listen to the pen Pals 454 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 1: podcast on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network, on the 455 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:52,680 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts, 456 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,199 Speaker 1: and sirely your new pen Pals Daniel van Kirk and 457 00:26:55,280 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: Rory Scobel. Hi, this is Paris, Hilton. Some of the 458 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: best times of my life have been spent inside of nightclubs, singing, 459 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 1: dancing and being free to truly be myself. And now 460 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 1: I'm the executive producer of a new show, the History 461 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,920 Speaker 1: of the World's Greatest Nightclubs. I wanted a show that 462 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 1: represented freedom, joy and hope, and there is no one 463 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,400 Speaker 1: better to host than someone who has inspired me for 464 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 1: so many years with her musical talent. I'm alternate and 465 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,120 Speaker 1: I've been in the music industry for three decades. I'm 466 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:33,120 Speaker 1: a singer, songwriter and musician, and now I'm inviting you 467 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,720 Speaker 1: to join me on this global nightclub journey. We'll dive 468 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: into the origins of genres that broke the industry and 469 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: uncover the stories of legendary DJs, all through the eyes 470 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 1: of the people who partied at the height of club culture. 471 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,879 Speaker 1: Listen to the history of the world's greatest nightclubs on 472 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 473 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 1: LA's reputation not so great. People from LA will have 474 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,880 Speaker 1: a very superficial, nice conversation with you, and they won't 475 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:13,199 Speaker 1: lift a finger to help you. To LA, people represent vapidity, 476 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 1: stops that like ohho, the best calls like oh shoot. Leave. 477 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 1: As someone born and raised here, I can tell you 478 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 1: there's much more to LA than this. My name is 479 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: James Kim, and I'm the creator of a new anthology 480 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 1: fiction podcast, Call You Feeling This. It's ten different stories 481 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 1: about LA and the real people who make up this city. 482 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 1: What did you listen to my message? Who were just 483 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: trying to get bought? I think I was just freaking 484 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 1: out because I'm scared by connecting with each other. I'm 485 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 1: going to be a father. Are you Feeling This? A 486 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 1: fiction podcast mixtape about love. Listen to it on the 487 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. 488 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: If something tragic happened to you or your family, would 489 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: you want a podcast or a documentary done about the 490 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 1: story of your family's tragedy. Is that helpful? Does that 491 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 1: move the needle? You know? I kind of have thought 492 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 1: about that before when people won't talk with us the media. 493 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: You know, I show up on people's doorsteps, and there 494 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 1: are a lot of times people don't want to talk 495 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: and that they have different reasons for that, and I 496 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 1: understand that, but I always think to myself, Gosh, if 497 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: I lost a loved one, I would probably be doing 498 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 1: anything I could to try to bring attention to the 499 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: key to figure out how it could be solved. So 500 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 1: I don't understand how some of these families make it through, 501 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 1: you know. I guess they say there's that old thaying 502 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 1: whatever you know doesn't kill you makes you stronger. So I, 503 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 1: you know, you see the will of some of some 504 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 1: of these people, and I just always admire their tenacity 505 00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:00,240 Speaker 1: and their ability to live and move forward. If I 506 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 1: were the victim of a crime, or a family member 507 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 1: of mine was the victim of a crime, I would 508 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: want something done. That's anything that could help bring some 509 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 1: light to the case, that would generate leads or generate 510 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 1: anything that would lead to the truth being uncovered in 511 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 1: somebody being held accountable. I was always in full transparency 512 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 1: thought why would anyone ever partake in a crime documentary 513 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 1: or podcasts? And working in this podcast in particular, it 514 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 1: made me realize that if people who didn't know the 515 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 1: victim don't speak for them or speak about them, then 516 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: we're just going to get the story wrong. It's impossible 517 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 1: to know the intricacies of someone's life hearing it secondhand 518 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 1: through a through an article or a YouTube video. So 519 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 1: in doing that, I think being able to hear details 520 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: about Dana Rodan being an incredible mother and a hard worker, 521 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 1: like that's what paints the picture and makes you care court, 522 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 1: what about you? So something from last week really stuck out. 523 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: In the case of Curtis and her forget Andie Montgomery 524 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 1: has been tirelessly, tirelessly looking for resolution that has yet 525 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: to come. And one thing she said, and this was 526 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 1: even in dealing with law enforcement, was Hey, guess what. 527 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 1: The squeaky wheel gets attention and can reinvigorate an investigation, 528 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 1: and you don't know if you're walking around in town 529 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 1: and the person guilty of murder of your loved one 530 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 1: is checking you out of the supermarket. So to be 531 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 1: able to bring attention to what is paralyzing many families 532 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: in unknown grief and just not knowing, I think that's 533 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 1: really important. I sort of feel strongly that if somebody 534 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 1: has experienced something very traumatic and the rest of us 535 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: are not made aware of it from a human perspective, 536 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 1: and that we are not forced to really care about 537 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 1: it and get mad about it and make sure it 538 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 1: doesn't continue to happen again, then maybe that's not okay either. 539 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 1: We're all sort of connected by the stories we share, 540 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 1: good and bad, and some of these being so wildly extreme. 541 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 1: I would always say, if something happened to me or 542 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: my family, please please do a podcast or a documentary 543 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 1: or shout from the rooftops that you know we did 544 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: this in our good times and that whoever did this 545 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 1: to us would be brought to justice. And then I'd 546 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 1: pose the same thing to you, Joseph. A few years ago, 547 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: I tended the first ground con I've ever been to 548 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 1: as a guest of people that were presenting there. And 549 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 1: I was on panels and all that sort of thing, 550 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: and I didn't really know what to think about it, 551 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 1: you know, because when I think about something that says 552 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 1: Cohn in it, I always think about people dressing up 553 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: like cartoon characters, you know, and living out these alternative universes, 554 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 1: you know, that they kind of exist in in their 555 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 1: private lives and that sort of thing. So I didn't 556 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 1: know what to expect. And I got there, you know, 557 00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,120 Speaker 1: and as an old investigator, I've had people, you know, 558 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 1: that would approach me and they call me up at night, 559 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: you know, late night while I'd be there at my 560 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 1: desk at the mme's office in Atlanta, and they say, 561 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 1: I'm looking for my mama. She's been missing ten years. 562 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 1: I'd entertained saying people for years and years and listen 563 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: to their stories and they just want somebody to talk to. 564 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: But this took on a different tenor from me when 565 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: I was there, something that kind of punched me in 566 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: the gut. These people were showing up and they weren't 567 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 1: just true Crown fans. They were flying all the way 568 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 1: from places like Seattle. And these people would show up 569 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 1: and they had files, papers, and they would walk up 570 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 1: to us with tears in their eyes, and they would say, please, 571 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: can you help me? My sister was raping Dallas, Texas 572 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy five. It killed my parents. It's still 573 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 1: in solid Please help me, and they're openly weeping, you know, 574 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 1: and they're I was. I found myself in that moment 575 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 1: in time, surrounded by people like this, And there's this 576 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 1: great unknown and unseen, massive people out there that are 577 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:17,320 Speaker 1: not served. And the reason they're not served is because 578 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:21,960 Speaker 1: right now, as we speak, people are dying somewhere right 579 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,879 Speaker 1: now or across the nation, and there are people that 580 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 1: are in mourning. And can you imagine always being in 581 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,880 Speaker 1: mourning and never being able to cycle out of the people. 582 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:35,840 Speaker 1: I hate to closure. I hate, I despise it because 583 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:40,280 Speaker 1: no one ever gets closure, and a homicide, it doesn't happen. 584 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 1: They just want answers. So, you know, for me personally, yeah, 585 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:48,239 Speaker 1: God forbid, you know that anything would happen to me 586 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,320 Speaker 1: and mine, I'd say, yeah, let the hide come with 587 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:53,920 Speaker 1: the hair, you know, do it. I mean, if it's 588 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:58,720 Speaker 1: going to bring about information, not closure. Closure is something 589 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,439 Speaker 1: that's abstract. If it brings about more information that's going 590 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 1: to help people, Yeah, I'll say, let's do it. For 591 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 1: more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us 592 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:32,400 Speaker 1: on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. The Piked and Massacre 593 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:35,840 Speaker 1: Returned to Pike County is executive produced by Stephanie Lydecker 594 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:39,280 Speaker 1: and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by executive 595 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:43,720 Speaker 1: producer Jared Aston. Additional producing by Jeff Shane, Andrew Becker 596 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,960 Speaker 1: and Chris Graves. The Piked and Massacre Returned to Pike 597 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,320 Speaker 1: County is a production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. For 598 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 1: more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 599 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,920 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 600 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,719 Speaker 1: I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. 601 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,719 Speaker 1: It's Las Vegas, it's the nineteen nineties, and it is 602 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 1: time to find a husband. There were four Jewish doctors 603 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:16,040 Speaker 1: who were felt to be eligible bachelors. One of them 604 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:20,200 Speaker 1: was the spob Baron Bout. On paper, he was perfect, 605 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 1: but in reality, this guy's a wacko. He shouted to 606 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:27,799 Speaker 1: the point she went unconscious. I would call him and 607 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,600 Speaker 1: I would say, I know you killed my sister. You 608 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 1: can listen to the Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, 609 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, Hello, Maltain Globo. Here. 610 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:43,440 Speaker 1: This year on Revisionist History, we're tackling more ambitious stories 611 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:47,440 Speaker 1: than ever, from how to fix education to what Americans 612 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:51,400 Speaker 1: get completely wrong about guns. We're debating with teenagers handing 613 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 1: out awards and hunting for the perfect medical raccoon. This is, 614 00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:00,799 Speaker 1: after all, a podcast about you overlooked and misunderstood. Find 615 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,839 Speaker 1: your Visions History on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or 616 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts from iHeart podcasts. These are 617 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:14,920 Speaker 1: the Whistleblowers. I wasn't just consent silently. Somebody needs to 618 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,640 Speaker 1: just give everybody the whole truth. You take your question 619 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,320 Speaker 1: in black sale and get it on a bottom of facility. 620 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,759 Speaker 1: If you speak out, you will pay. You should be prosecure. 621 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:28,080 Speaker 1: When power corrupts, conscience is the last line of defense. 622 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:32,839 Speaker 1: I'm Miles Taylor. Listen to the Whistleblowers every Thursday on 623 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, 624 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:42,640 Speaker 1: this is Laverne Cox. I'm an actress, producer and host 625 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,239 Speaker 1: of The Laverne Cox Show. Do you like your tea 626 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:49,720 Speaker 1: with lemon or Honey, history making Broadway performer Alex Newell. 627 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,360 Speaker 1: When I think the Holy Ghost shows up, that's my 628 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 1: ministry and I know that well about me. That's the 629 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 1: tea honey, whoever it is, you can bet we get 630 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:00,720 Speaker 1: into it, my guest and night we go there, every 631 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:04,160 Speaker 1: single time. I can't help it. Listen to The Laverne 632 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:08,240 Speaker 1: Cox Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever 633 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:09,360 Speaker 1: you get your podcast