1 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: Hello, welcome to It could happen here. Yes, this is 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,639 Speaker 1: what I sound like today. This is sharene just go 3 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: with it. If you listen to the Sheep episode, I 4 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:17,320 Speaker 1: sounded much worse. So this is I sound great today, 5 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: I amo, but yeah, thank you for listening today. I'm 6 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: excited to talk about what I want to talk about 7 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:26,440 Speaker 1: for the next two days because it's something that I've 8 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: always wanted to kind of just like open up as 9 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 1: more of a conversation. And I'm so grateful to have 10 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: an author and amazing person. They've just written a book 11 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:40,639 Speaker 1: called to the Ghosts Who Are Still Living and it's 12 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 1: out now you can go get it. I'm the Wine Traub. 13 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining me. I'm so excited 14 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:48,279 Speaker 1: to talk to you. 15 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:50,839 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk to 16 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:51,200 Speaker 2: you too. 17 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: There's a particular reason why I asked you to come 18 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 1: on the show. I specifically wanted to talk to a 19 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: Jewish anti Zionist. So I want to approach the conversation 20 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:05,319 Speaker 1: as if people are really unfamiliar with Zionism, because I 21 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: think most people are. Can you maybe just start by 22 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: telling me, like, what is Zionism? 23 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:17,040 Speaker 3: Yeah? Definitely, Yeah, And I said to sharing before as well, 24 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 3: like I am not particularly like an expert on Zion, 25 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 3: I'm sure Israel Palestine. So also just want to recommend 26 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 3: that listeners also go out and find the experts, find 27 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 3: the materials that you're interested in, if this conversation sparks 28 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 3: your interest. Yeah, and take my my thoughts as just 29 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 3: one thought in the mix of all the thoughts. So, Yeah, 30 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 3: when I was thinking about like defining Zionism, I was 31 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 3: thinking about sort of like the origins of Zionism and 32 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 3: like how did we even get to that place? 33 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, And. 34 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 3: Zionism for me reflects and I think is like this 35 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 3: political desire to have a Jewish state, and to have 36 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 3: that Jewish state like on the land of Israel. 37 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 2: Is how. 38 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 3: Is how Zionism has materialized in its formation. And prior 39 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 3: to like the actual political movement of Zionism, there has 40 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 3: been like a connection of the Jewish. 41 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 2: People to that specific land. 42 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 3: It just hadn't materialized into like an actual movement to 43 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 3: establish a state on that land. 44 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 2: So there's like. 45 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 3: There's been like a yearning and like a memory and 46 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 3: like a collective sense of. 47 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 2: Connection to like Jerusalem, to that piece of land. 48 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:52,799 Speaker 3: But it was only in like the eighteen hundreds, when 49 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 3: there was nation state building occurring in general in Europe, 50 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:04,959 Speaker 3: specifically in Eastern Europe, that the movement for Zionism started 51 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 3: to develop in the form that we have today. And 52 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 3: a lot of that was because one reason, like Jews 53 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 3: were saying, oh wow, like German people are creating a 54 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 3: state or French people are creating a state, like we 55 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 3: are a people, we should have a state. And at 56 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:25,359 Speaker 3: the same time, Jews were also being excluded from citizenship 57 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 3: in a lot of the actual like newly formed countries 58 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 3: that they were living in. So there was like this 59 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 3: dispossession also from place where they were and matched with 60 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 3: a general like rise of antisemitism as well. So I 61 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 3: think all of those things kind of crystallized into creating 62 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 3: a actual political movement around that kind of nascent like 63 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 3: more like religious spiritual yearning. Yeah, and then that formed 64 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 3: into like many different types of Zionism, like more militaristic 65 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 3: Zionism or socialist si religious Scionism, et cetera. 66 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 2: And that's all kind of yeah, make its way to 67 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 2: become Israel. Yeah. 68 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: How would you differentiate all of those like the cultural 69 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 1: versus religious versus political, Like, how would you personally differentiate them. 70 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: I know you're not an expert, but just like speaking 71 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: of experience, Yeah, I have to think on that. It's complicated, 72 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 1: I would say, because it feels like to me from 73 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: just reading about the history of Zionism, it did kind 74 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:38,599 Speaker 1: of start in a religious like origin, but it became 75 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 1: more political. 76 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 2: Am I reading that right? 77 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: Or yeah? 78 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 2: Yeah? 79 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 3: I think like, yeah, that's what can be pretty confusing. 80 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 3: I think about understanding like Zionism in general is just 81 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 3: like where does this even come from? Like how do 82 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 3: these like especially Zionism like originating more from like Ashkenazi 83 00:04:57,680 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 3: like European Jews. 84 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 2: How did this even come to be and seen as 85 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 2: something that like. 86 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:10,840 Speaker 3: The longing and the connection to the land being part 87 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 3: of Jewish culture and religion, but that only turning into 88 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 3: a desire for a nation state like at that certain moment. 89 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,480 Speaker 3: So the like different categories of like religious Zionism versus 90 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:27,159 Speaker 3: political versus militaristic versus socialists were kind of like the 91 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 3: ways that Zionism was. There was like different movements of 92 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,720 Speaker 3: Zionism in Europe and Eastern Europe at the time of 93 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 3: its origins. So it's kind of like referring to more 94 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 3: of its historical relationship and then that still influences the 95 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 3: politics today in contemporary like I'll just say a state 96 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 3: of Israel and also many like Israel Palestine, but speaking 97 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 3: about Zionism, that feels more relevant. So you still have 98 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 3: like socialist scientists who are more on the left than 99 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 3: you have like more like right wing religious scientists, you 100 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 3: probably have more historical origins and like more militaristic Sietism 101 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 3: and religious scientists who maybe are like we are here 102 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:15,919 Speaker 3: for the religious reasons of being Jews on this land 103 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 3: versus like a socialist scientist. Like their framework was more 104 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 3: like we want to create this more socialist utopia sort 105 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 3: of vision versus more political militaristic Sietists. Their original vision 106 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 3: was like want to dominate this land and have right 107 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 3: political power. 108 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,039 Speaker 1: Yeah, it feels like in recent times it's kind of 109 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 1: leaned more in that direction, only because of the I 110 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: don't know the state of the world. But when you 111 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 1: when you look up Zionism, it's defined I'm just gonna 112 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 1: read what I found and please entrupt me if you're like, 113 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: actually no. When you look at zionism was defined as 114 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 1: an organized nationalist movement generally considered to have been founded 115 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 1: by theod Or hers in eighteen ninety seven. However, the 116 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 1: history of Zionism began earlier and is intertwined with the 117 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: Jewish history and Judaism as a whole. The organizations of 118 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 1: I'm going to probably mispronounce this, but hoveve Zion the 119 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: lovers of Zion. 120 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 2: How you svitz? Yeah? 121 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 3: Yeah. 122 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: This organization was held as like the forerunner of the 123 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: modern Zionist ideals and they are responsible for twenty Jewish 124 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 1: towns in Palestine between eighteen seventy and eighteen ninety seven. 125 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: This is from just online history, and at the core 126 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: of the Zionist ideology was this traditional aspiration for a 127 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: Jewish national home through the re establishment of Jewish sovereignty 128 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: in Palestine, and this was to be facilitated by the 129 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: Jewish diaspora. Herzel apparently sought an independent Jewish state, usually 130 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: defined as a secular state with a Jewish majority population, 131 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: and he wrote a eighteen ninety six pamphlet to describe 132 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: exactly what he wanted, and though he did not live 133 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 1: to witness it, Israel was established and so what he 134 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 1: wanted did come to fruition, even though in my opinion 135 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 1: it was not done in a just way, but. 136 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 2: That's history for you. 137 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 1: But yeah, I think the actual core of it is 138 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: really understandable and true, you know, like of course every 139 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 1: marginalized community wants a safe haven and a place where 140 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: they can all go to. I think my biggest what 141 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: I really dislike about where it is now, where zion 142 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:55,079 Speaker 1: him is now, is just how much it erases everyone 143 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: else that's already there. It's almost as if Palestine was 144 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: like an empty field, you know. And I think a 145 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:05,959 Speaker 1: lot of Zionists today kind of erase that history in 146 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: a race that like, they massacred hundreds of people and 147 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: they displaced over seven hundred and fifty thousand people. It's 148 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 1: called the neckbut it's called the catastrophe. That's what Palestinians 149 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: refer to it as. And I feel like Zionists tend 150 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 1: to not. I mean, from what I understand, it's as 151 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:30,319 Speaker 1: if that isn't like real history. And from what I've read, 152 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: or like from what I've heard from people that have 153 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: grown up in Israel, the history that they learn is 154 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 1: also a little bit selective in what they learn. But yeah, 155 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: that's I've just been I've been reading a lot about 156 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: Zionism for a long time. Yeah, but it's nice to 157 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 1: have someone actually like with experience in it because I 158 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: can only learn so much from the Internet and from 159 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:56,199 Speaker 1: like secondhand stuff. 160 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 3: I feel like that like like when we look at 161 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 3: like the early Zionists and it's like, oh, yeah, like 162 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 3: these desires to like have sovereignty and have autonomy and 163 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 3: agency for your people who are being marginalized in your 164 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 3: country like or in these lands that they live reasonable, 165 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 3: Like that totally makes sense and that and then it 166 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 3: has to, like you said, be also seeing through the 167 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 3: lens of like the actual history that occurred, which is 168 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 3: materially trying to like build a nation state as like 169 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 3: part of your people's liberation is going to involve lots 170 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:38,079 Speaker 3: of oppression and violence. 171 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 2: And that's kind of where I ended up, like. 172 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, like understanding the history of Zionism, like being able 173 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 3: to have empathy for that original message, and then just 174 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 3: really being like that's what led me into like anarchism ultimately, 175 00:10:55,600 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 3: was saying that this desire for a niche state to 176 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:05,959 Speaker 3: be like a liberatory project is kind of always going to. 177 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 2: Be flawed in a way. 178 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 3: So actually, like and I kind of said, like you know, 179 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:18,199 Speaker 3: Jewish like agencies, sovereignty and like liberation, like we actually 180 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 3: deserve better than that, you know, being deserved to not 181 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 3: actually be like held within the confines of like what 182 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 3: is possible in a nation state, as I think like 183 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 3: all people deserve. 184 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. So that's kind of how I've come to 185 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 2: this point now. 186 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:37,680 Speaker 1: No, and I really want to talk to you more 187 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:40,439 Speaker 1: about how you've landed where you are with your beliefs. 188 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: But yeah, I think what also gets forgotten is that 189 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 1: pre nineteen forty eight, there were Jewish people in Palestine, 190 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 1: you know, and Christian people everyone got along. I'm from Syria, 191 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 1: but even in Syria everyone, like in all in most 192 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:58,079 Speaker 1: Middle Eastern countries, there was a mix of all these 193 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 1: religions and they all got along. And I think that's 194 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 1: what really angers me when it comes to like basically 195 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:08,319 Speaker 1: like the news saying it's like this ancient religious conflict, 196 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 1: because that's just simply not true. And I think that's 197 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: a huge defense that a lot of like militant Zionists have, 198 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:21,439 Speaker 1: where it's like this eternal cultural religious war and it's 199 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 1: simply just false. I think that's something that always bothers me. 200 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:29,680 Speaker 1: I just want to give a little bit more history 201 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 1: just to bring us to like current day. Just I 202 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 1: think it's this stuff is a little bit interesting. So 203 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy five the UN General Assembly they passed 204 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: Resolution three three seven nine, which designated Zionism as a 205 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: form of racism and racial discrimination. However, this resolution was 206 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: repealed in nineteen ninety one by replacing Resolution three three 207 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: seventy nine with Resolution four to six slash eight six, 208 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,319 Speaker 1: and this new resolution it was adopted on December sixteenth 209 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 1: and nineteen ninety one. It revoked the determination in the 210 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 1: previous resolution three three seventy nine determining Zionism as racist, 211 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: and Israel had made the certification of this resolution a 212 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 1: condition of its participation in the Madrid Peace Conference, which 213 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: was a conference that was held at the end of 214 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one, and it was also raised under pressure 215 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: of the administration of President Bush. Papa, I just find 216 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 1: that funny, No, hw Bush, I'm sorry, this is not 217 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:33,680 Speaker 1: funny stuff. I just this is how I cope. But 218 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: basically the revocation was simply this one sentence, the General 219 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: Assembly decides to revoke the determination contained in its Resolution 220 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 1: three three seventy nine of tenth of December nineteen seventy five, 221 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:52,199 Speaker 1: and this motion was supported by one hundred and eleven nations, 222 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 1: including the ninety nations who had sponsored it in the 223 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: first place, and it was opposed by twenty five nations 224 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 1: and abstained by thirteen nations. And I just thought that 225 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 1: was incredibly fascinating. It also just like illustrates the power 226 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 1: that Israel has always kind of like held, like as 227 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 1: far as like a political state in like world affairs. 228 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: And if you've listened to my previous episodes, then you 229 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: know that at the current state in time, and like 230 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: for decades leading up to this, the government in Israel 231 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 1: is extremely far right and Zionist to the point where 232 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: it's extremely racist, and they've built an apartheid state based 233 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: around their Zionism. Basically, Dianis values serve as the ideological 234 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 1: foundation of Israel. I think that's kind of a big 235 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 1: part of why Israel was created in the first place, 236 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 1: was this hope for a place where everyone was safe. 237 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: Obviously that kind of became twisted and they went about 238 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 1: it in a terrible way. But I do understand what 239 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: you mean also by having empathy for the original feel 240 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 1: of it, because I feel the same. I think every 241 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: marginalized community wants what the original idea of Zionism had. 242 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 1: I think Zionis today is defined so differently, and I 243 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: think that's really unfortunate because it didn't have to become 244 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 1: a racist ideology, but it did. I've been rambling too much, 245 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: and we're going to take our first break. When we 246 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: come back, I want to talk to you about you, 247 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 1: so Brb and we're back, Ammie, take it away what 248 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 1: he had a response for the thing I said about 249 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: how Zion's values they serve as the ideological foundation of Israel. 250 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think one of the things that I 251 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 3: try to like make a point of kind of as 252 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 3: like a Jewish anarchist specifically, Like what I was saying 253 00:15:56,080 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 3: prior is that that's again like kind of just the inevitable, well, 254 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 3: in my mind, like the inevitable outcome of like a 255 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 3: state is that there is going to be some amount 256 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 3: of like division of population, like oppression of a certain 257 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 3: class of people or certain group of people, a consolidation 258 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 3: of power in the hands of a few. So again, 259 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 3: for me, like that's where this like the original idea 260 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 3: of like let's have a place where Jews can have 261 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 3: like safety and sovereignty and cultural like flourishing. Like attaching 262 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 3: that to a state was like kind of always bound 263 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 3: to fail, but not inherent like not exactly because like 264 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 3: notationially because that desire is like a wrong desire. 265 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then when we pile in kind. 266 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 3: Of like like other people's interests in terms of like 267 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 3: the West having like an interest in having like Israel 268 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 3: being like a friendly like I consider like a proxy 269 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 3: state the West like in the Middle East where they 270 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 3: can you know, like we've seen like send their police 271 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 3: officers to be trained in these ways. But also the 272 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 3: West is benefiting from that exchange. 273 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: They have a little hole in the Middle East like 274 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:16,679 Speaker 1: they always wanted to exactly. 275 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 3: So their interest is to like maintain Israel like as 276 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 3: something that they can have influence in and have this 277 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 3: kind of control over and like to make it creepier 278 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:35,439 Speaker 3: like the Christian like Evangelical Zionism, like Christian Zionism is 279 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 3: also like a huge influence in the US. 280 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 2: There was just a. 281 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 3: Really interesting documentary I can't remember the name now that 282 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 3: that was released like a year or two ago about 283 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 3: this and Christian Zionists actually make up like a larger 284 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 3: lobbying body than like Jewish Zionists in the US just 285 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 3: backward because they there's just so many more evangelicals and 286 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 3: interest in the state of Israel is that Jews will 287 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 3: return there and then the rapture will happen. 288 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 1: Wait can you Yeah, I actually want to talk to 289 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: you about this because I one hundred percent think you 290 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:12,920 Speaker 1: know more about this than I do, because I do. 291 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 1: I have heard that there are a lot of evangelical 292 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 1: Christians that are huge supporters of Zionism. Yeah, one, can 293 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 1: you speak to like if you know how that even 294 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 1: like where that uh, I don't know, not solid I 295 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 1: guess like solidarity with Zionism came about, and also what 296 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 1: they believe, like the whole rapture thing. 297 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:39,640 Speaker 2: Please, I would love to know more. 298 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 3: Yet again, like people like watch whatever this documentary is, 299 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 3: you just google like Christian Zionism, because I've mostly learned 300 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 3: from that and from my own like internet wormholes. 301 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:52,960 Speaker 1: I've just looked it up and I think it's Till 302 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,360 Speaker 1: Kingdom Come twenty twenty film, right, Yeah? 303 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 2: Cool? 304 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 3: And so what I understand is there is this like 305 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 3: somewhere in the Christian world, but like it has roots 306 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 3: at least in the evangelical world. Right now, this idea 307 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,679 Speaker 3: in the Rapture, which I don't know that much about, 308 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 3: but apparently the rapture will involve Jews returning to the 309 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 3: land of Israel and Jesus returning and killing all of 310 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 3: the Jews. Oh my god. Yeah, they support Zionism. That 311 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 3: is why they support Zionism. So they walked. Yeah, so 312 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:34,399 Speaker 3: they want Jews to go back to the land the 313 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 3: state of Israel in order for them to ultimately like 314 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 3: be killed and go to hellp all in. 315 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:41,639 Speaker 1: One place and be conveniently killed. 316 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, and so that and that is one of the 317 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 3: major lobbying arms. Like when we're talking about like the 318 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 3: US like sending money to to Israel, and like I 319 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 3: just saw recently, like like most of the Republicans are 320 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:00,080 Speaker 3: like supporting. 321 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:03,439 Speaker 2: This, yeah, the aid going to Israel. 322 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 3: And it's like why are they doing that when generally 323 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 3: they don't really support Jews, you know, like Republicans are 324 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 3: not like BFFs with Jews, Like they. 325 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 1: Don't really I mean inherently that way of seeing Zionism 326 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: is one hundred percent racist. Like it's like people are 327 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 1: or not not even just that anti semitic, you know 328 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 1: how anti semitic. That's really the defense all of the 329 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,160 Speaker 1: time when you have like a Palestinian politician talk about 330 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: Israel or anything not even Zionism as mens in Israel, 331 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:34,120 Speaker 1: and then they get labeled as tiseemitic, but. 332 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 2: That is one hundred percent anti Semitics. It's actually antisemitic. 333 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 3: Well, and it's like it doesn't get noticed because like 334 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:46,160 Speaker 3: I feel like so much that like white Christians do 335 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 3: in this country just like gets very overlooked as like 336 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:55,400 Speaker 3: something that actually has something that's actually worth like noticing 337 00:20:55,480 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 3: and something that's actually worth like critiquing. So I and 338 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 3: trying to understand, like how did we get to this place? 339 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:03,400 Speaker 2: Like how did we get to. 340 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:07,199 Speaker 3: This point where like, yeah, Israel is being supportive and 341 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 3: doing what it is doing right now to Palestinians. It 342 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 3: has moved, in my opinion, so far away from like 343 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 3: an actual like vision of like Jewish liberation. And then 344 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 3: you look at like who's actually really supporting this project 345 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 3: right now, and it's people who actually just want us 346 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 3: to die. It becomes very convoluted, and it again motivates 347 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 3: my anti Zionism in a lot of ways too. 348 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, can you tell me as little and as many 349 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:38,399 Speaker 1: details as you want, But how did you come to 350 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 1: identify as an anti Zionist. How did you become How 351 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:43,880 Speaker 1: did you embrace that definition for yourself? 352 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 3: I guess there's a lot of aspects to that answer. 353 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,399 Speaker 3: One thing is like I do really care about like 354 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,880 Speaker 3: Jewish people being safe and Jewish people having our culture, 355 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,080 Speaker 3: like Jewish will be able to express our culture, be 356 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 3: able to express who we are. And I think, yeah, 357 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:06,919 Speaker 3: like being two or three generations from like the Holocaust 358 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:11,160 Speaker 3: and just like feeling like the intensity of that loss 359 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 3: of life and land and place has just like given 360 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:20,159 Speaker 3: me that feeling of like this is really important. And 361 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 3: then also like living out of time right now in 362 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:25,160 Speaker 3: the US, where like anti Semitism is violent and I've 363 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 3: experienced that violence and it is like a threat to 364 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,959 Speaker 3: like my sense of safety and my ability to express 365 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 3: my culture. I've just been like very obsessed with, like 366 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 3: what does actually achieving those goals look like? Yeah, And 367 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 3: when I look at the state of Israel and I 368 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 3: see all eighteen year olds are conscripted into the army, 369 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:47,359 Speaker 3: which is like literally like my great grandfather left Russia 370 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 3: because he didn't want to be conscripted into the Russian army, 371 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 3: and a lot of Jews Ashurazi Jews in the US 372 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 3: like have that story, like that's not liberation when I 373 00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 3: see that, like a lot of Jews in Israel have 374 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:03,360 Speaker 3: the choice of either being like very secular or being 375 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 3: extremely religious, when even like a lot of more diverse 376 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 3: like Jewish cultures have been assimilated into like this one 377 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 3: monolithic culture. Languages have been lost, like practices have been lost, 378 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 3: Like that's not like our culture being able to flourish. 379 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 3: And also the violence done to Palestinians, like in the 380 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:27,880 Speaker 3: name of the state and the name of this liberation, 381 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:33,399 Speaker 3: like nothing, nothing is worth that violence. Ever, so all 382 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,879 Speaker 3: of those things have kind of coalesced into my Jewish 383 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,360 Speaker 3: anarchism of also analyzing that through the state apparatus itself 384 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:44,119 Speaker 3: and being like, oh, yeah, states will do this. We 385 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 3: need to think more creatively, We need to think in 386 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 3: a way that builds actual solidarity between Jewish community and 387 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 3: Palestinian community and other marginalized people. 388 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 2: And all of that has. 389 00:23:55,280 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 3: Kind of just coalesced into Jewish anti Zionism, like just 390 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,400 Speaker 3: making sense on all of those levels. 391 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I thank you for saying all of that. 392 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 2: It's true. 393 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: I think nothing is worth all that violence. And also 394 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 1: I think unfortunately, like when you have any kind of desire, 395 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:18,920 Speaker 1: no matter how pure it is, because I think the 396 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: basis of Zion is and has a pure desire of 397 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 1: safety and sovereignty. But when you have a desire and 398 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 1: you add politics to it, or you add I don't know, 399 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 1: any kind of like country war anything. When you add 400 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 1: like modern day limitations and structures, that's when it becomes 401 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,959 Speaker 1: something else. It devolves into something that it really shouldn't be. Like, 402 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,120 Speaker 1: I think what disserves me the most is how many 403 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 1: young people are like rallying in the streets, like a 404 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 1: lot of like far right groups in Israel will be 405 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:56,919 Speaker 1: like death to all Arabs or like they'll say the 406 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,399 Speaker 1: most heinous things as well as do the most heinous things. 407 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 1: But I think it's unfortunate because I think even they 408 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 1: kind of lost what zion is was supposed to be about. 409 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 1: It's not supposed to be about being only there, just 410 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: you and killing everybody else, or or seeing someone else 411 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: as second as second citizens or anything. But no, I yeah, 412 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,119 Speaker 1: thank you for saying all that. The army thing is 413 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:24,879 Speaker 1: a really good thing to bring up as well, just 414 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: because Palestine has no army, so it's a little bit 415 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: silly to demand everyone and even join the army for 416 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: this fake, imaginary bad guy. Not that there is not 417 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 1: there's definitely terrorist like activity on both sides, I would say, 418 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: but the vast majority is like this imaginary big bad 419 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 1: wolf that does not exist and is like powered by 420 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 1: US and Western media totally. 421 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 3: And that's where I start to think, like I don't 422 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:56,920 Speaker 3: know if this is like conspiracy or if this is real, 423 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,399 Speaker 3: but I start to think, like who is this actually serving, 424 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 3: you know, like who is it serving to, like literally, yeah, 425 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:10,160 Speaker 3: put young people into a war every in every generation 426 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,919 Speaker 3: that comes through this country, and like, is it mostly 427 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 3: serving like US and other like Western interests to be 428 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 3: able to ye have that land be their proxy state. 429 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,399 Speaker 3: And I don't have enough research to like back that 430 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 3: claim up in a way that I would like to. 431 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 3: That's that's like my next like research wormhole is to 432 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 3: try and yeah, just understand like that dynamic, because I 433 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,879 Speaker 3: think something else that I have a lot of questions 434 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 3: about you, and like the formation of the state of 435 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 3: Israel is like yeah, understanding that like England did, or 436 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,120 Speaker 3: like I don't ready Great Britain in England. I think 437 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 3: England they were the ones who like practitioned that land 438 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 3: and like they were the ones who ultimately signed it over. 439 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:59,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, the British are was possible forty of the world 440 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,719 Speaker 1: They no, no, fake you no. 441 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 3: And sometimes like forgetting that part of the story kind 442 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 3: of almost like contributes to this kind of like anti 443 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 3: Semitic rhetoric of like, oh the Jews are this like 444 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 3: all powerful people who were just able to conquer this 445 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:16,640 Speaker 3: land on their own. 446 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,120 Speaker 2: It's like a conspiracy theory fuel. 447 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, when it's like no, like actually, like the Jews 448 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,160 Speaker 3: at that time did not have like global power in that. 449 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:28,680 Speaker 2: Way like England. 450 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,879 Speaker 3: Britain was like here you go, here's this land in 451 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,159 Speaker 3: the same way that they did like so much of 452 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:38,639 Speaker 3: the other colonized places in that world in the world. 453 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the British are responsible for. 454 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 2: Every bad thing, and like. 455 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 3: For me, like that bigger lens feels harder to talk 456 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 3: about sometimes because I also like am also holding that 457 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 3: like Jewish American support for the state of Israel, like Fuels, 458 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 3: also autrocity is happening against Palestidian's Jewish support for the 459 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 3: IDEF in Israel, et cetera. 460 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 2: Like obviously are responsible. 461 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 3: And like I worry that if we don't look at 462 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,200 Speaker 3: these broader influences that we're not actually going to understand 463 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 3: like how to systemically stop this, you know. 464 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, you have to understand how you got somewhere to 465 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 1: like determine how to get out of where you are, 466 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 1: right really yeah, not to be too morbid or like 467 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: to make this connection, but like Britain doing that, it's 468 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:49,239 Speaker 1: almost what the evangelical Christians want to do, right ye, Like, 469 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 1: oh well, you guys, just stay here, let's just shove 470 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: him on this place that we don't really care about, 471 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: and here you go, Like it doesn't even feel like 472 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: genuine support, you know what I mean. Like I think 473 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 1: in an alternate universe Jewish people were welcomed into nations 474 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,480 Speaker 1: and Britain was like opening their doors to immigrants. I 475 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 1: think that is a much more kind notion in my opinion. 476 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: But what I do understand the desire to do otherwise. 477 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 1: But it is interesting to connect those two now that 478 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 1: we've talked about both of them, and how similar that is. 479 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 2: And on that too, like the most. 480 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 3: Like disturbing like thing that I've figured out in a 481 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 3: while in relation to like this origin history of Zionism. 482 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 3: So like in the beginning of like the Nazi power 483 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 3: in Germany. 484 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 2: In Germany specifically before. 485 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 3: They wanted to like kill the Jews, they just wanted 486 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 3: the Jews to leave, so they were like go, just go. 487 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 2: And I saw this. 488 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 3: I was in Berlin last summer, and I saw this 489 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 3: picture of Nazis creating like a travel agencies in the 490 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 3: right word, but like a travel depot that was specifically 491 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 3: said like go to Palestine and was like directing Jews 492 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 3: to go to Palestine. So like in that context, like 493 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 3: the state of Israel then has like a totally different 494 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 3: like frame of orgeous story almost, yeah, of being the 495 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 3: place where like the world could send their Jews when 496 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 3: they didn't want them in their home countries. And and 497 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 3: for me that's also like a place that I've really 498 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 3: fixated on is like wait, wait, you can't just like 499 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 3: say you're in solidarity with Jews because you created this 500 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 3: country and we all have to go there, Like you 501 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 3: actually have to stop being anti Semitic, you know, you 502 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 3: actually have to like you should work on that for yeah, 503 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 3: like let us like live in your countries and be safe. 504 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 3: And and it relates back to the evangelicals too, right, 505 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 3: It's like they're all about like being Christian Zionists and 506 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 3: like supporting Israel, but they're also like very anti Semitic 507 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 3: in this country. So it's like it feels like a 508 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 3: similar sort of dynamic of like, yeah, yeah, we support 509 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 3: you because we want you to go there, we want 510 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 3: you to leave this country and go there, and we're 511 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 3: not going to actually make it better for you in 512 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 3: the place where you want to be, which is your 513 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 3: family's home here, you know. So like that's another frame 514 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 3: that I've been working in which makes me just kind 515 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 3: of have a bigger question of like global responsibility for 516 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 3: what's happening in Israel Palestine right now, and how does 517 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 3: like this global resistance to actually addressing anti Semitism like 518 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 3: play into the continued violence against Palestinians. 519 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, and just to be clear, being an anti Zionist 520 00:31:55,440 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 1: is not anti Semitic. However, it is important to remember 521 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 1: that just because someone is an anti Zionist doesn't mean 522 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 1: they're not anti Semitic. 523 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 2: It's an important. 524 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: Reminder for those engaging in anti Zionists organizing to also 525 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 1: be doing work around anti Semitism, both internally and the 526 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: world at large, because both solidarity with Palestinians as well 527 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,480 Speaker 1: as ensuring that we're interrogating the anti Semitism in our 528 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 1: lives and the world is vitally important in this moment. Now, 529 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 1: I was trying to divide these two episodes up. You 530 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 1: already know this, I've told you, but just for the audience, like, 531 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 1: I wanted to this first episode to be a little 532 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 1: bit more about the history and about how we got here, 533 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 1: and tomorrow's episode you'll hear about what I really want 534 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 1: to talk to you about. It is like your work 535 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 1: and ancestral healing and how that's a huge part of 536 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 1: your work, and also the community that you've built in 537 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 1: certain organizations. I think that is so critical when it 538 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: comes to anti Zionism or having solidarity of Palestinians, because 539 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 1: that's that's what you need to even make change happen. 540 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 2: Right. 541 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,960 Speaker 1: So on that note, I'm going to wrap it up 542 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 1: here for now. Amy, can you plug Like if people 543 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 1: want to know more about you and your work, where 544 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 1: they can find you? 545 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. 546 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 3: So again, I'm Ami wintrab And I just came out 547 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 3: with this book To the Ghosts who are Still Living. 548 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 3: You can buy it through my publisher, Strangers in a 549 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 3: Tangled Wilderness, or you can also look up my website 550 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:33,719 Speaker 3: amiwintrab dot com, and the book touches on like not 551 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 3: Zionism specifically, but kind of the themes of like place 552 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 3: and land and where do you Jews belong in the world. 553 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, and their website also has a list of their 554 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 1: other works, which I highly recommend you seek out. I 555 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:54,520 Speaker 1: think voices like Amy's, like yours, are really important when 556 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 1: it comes to talking about I don't know, changing the 557 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 1: world for the better in general, not even about anti Zionism, 558 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 1: but like even just trying to assess something in a 559 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 1: more critical way, in a more personal way, even thinking 560 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:11,280 Speaker 1: about it being ancestral healing, I think is so critical. 561 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 1: So thank you so much for coming. 562 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:14,759 Speaker 2: On, Thank you for having me. 563 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, of course I'll talk to you tomorrow for you guys. 564 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 1: I'm going to keep talking to them right now for me. 565 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 1: But yeah, tune in tomorrow for a continuation of the 566 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 1: lovely conversation Bye. 567 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:35,680 Speaker 3: It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 568 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,440 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 569 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 1: cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 570 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 571 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:46,840 Speaker 1: You can find sources for it could happen here. Updated 572 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 1: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com Slash sources. 573 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.