1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Once 2 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: upon a Time. You yes, you decided to tune into 3 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:35,239 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History. We're so glad you did. We're gonna do 4 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: something a little bit different today. Hi, I'm ben. Hey, 5 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: I'm no. It's true. We are going to have a 6 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:42,480 Speaker 1: little bit of ridiculous story time and then we're gonna 7 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: go back afterwards and um have a little discussion. Actually 8 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: do an episode. Christ is an episode, but it's it's 9 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: all okay, Yeah, it'll become clear what we're trying to 10 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: go for here and never fear our our our better. 11 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: Third super producer Casey Pegram is here. We're not up 12 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: to some weird high jinks without them. Uh So, without 13 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: further ado, you already said once upon a time, We 14 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:06,319 Speaker 1: already said once upon a time. So uh nol, why 15 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: don't we Why don't we tell the story together? Would 16 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: you like to start? Sure? This is the story of 17 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: e Shian. Long ago, there was a community of cave 18 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: dwellers in China called the Woodong, and they had a 19 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: chief whose name was Woo, and he had two wives 20 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: and a daughter by each of the wives. Uh Ye 21 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 1: Sean was Woo's daughter. Um and she was of course 22 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: extremely beautiful, kind, gentle, intelligent, gifted, She had many skills. 23 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: She could make pottery, she was a poet. Then she 24 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: had a half sister named June Lee, who was uh 25 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: the opposite of those things. She was cruel, she was selfish, 26 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: she was vain. So ye Shian was the daughter of 27 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: Wu's first wife, and she died when Hi was just 28 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: a baby. Who's second wife, who was the mother of 29 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: the cruel, selfish sister, was a classic wicked stepmother kind 30 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: of situation. She was envious of all the attention that 31 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: Wou lavished upon Yeshion, and she wanted her daughter to 32 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: be the top daughter. Ah ha. Some of us may 33 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 1: be saying, this story sounds a little familiar. Listen along 34 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: and tell us how many familiar tropes you can spot, 35 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 1: and bonus points if you can guess which story this is, 36 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 1: we'll tell you at the end. Back to the story. Unfortunately, 37 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 1: for Ye Shan, her father also passes away. Wu dies 38 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 1: from a local plague. Wo has no sons, so a 39 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: new chieftain is appointed to take his place. Ye Shan's 40 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 1: family is reduced to poverty. She has to become a 41 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: lowly servant. She finds work as the employee of the 42 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:49,119 Speaker 1: same stepmother and envious sister who have hated her all 43 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: her life. She's burdened with chores, abuse, and housework, but 44 00:02:55,040 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 1: she still retains her inner beauty, her cleverness, and you know, 45 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: she's still very popular because everybody likes her. She makes 46 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 1: friends with a mysterious, stunning, just exquisite, tin foot long 47 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: fish in a lake near her home. This fish has 48 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: golden eyes and scales, and the fish you see is 49 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: no ordinary fish. It is a guardian spirit sent to 50 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,839 Speaker 1: her by her own mother from beyond the grave, who 51 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: never forgot about her daughter. It's true. Um and uh 52 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: Yehan takes solace in her visits with this giant golden fish, 53 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: who apparently talks quite a lot as well. And one day, unfortunately, 54 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: June Lee, the unkind step sister, follows ye Shian to 55 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: the lake where she discovers her talking to the fish, 56 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: and Um, she just doesn't want her sister stepsister to 57 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: have any anything nice, any happiness, because she runs back 58 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: tells her mother what she's seen, and then the evil 59 00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: stepmother comes back and confronts Ye Sean and stabs the 60 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: fish in the heart, killing it. Instantly and cooks it 61 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 1: up for she and her less remarkable daughter's dinner, and 62 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: of course Ye Shan is absolutely crushed. This was her 63 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: one glimmer of happiness that was keeping her spirit alive, 64 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:21,160 Speaker 1: this magical, you know, talking creature sent from on high 65 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 1: by her dead mother. But then, as as happens in 66 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 1: many Chinese folk tales, we're going to have the appearance 67 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: of an ancestor in the form of an old, wizened 68 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 1: man with a white beard who could have possibly been 69 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 1: her maternal grandfather. He's dressed in robes, and he appears 70 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: to her and tells her, hey, it's cool. Even though 71 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 1: the fish, your fishy friend, has been decimated and devoured 72 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: by these gluttonous, disgusting people. Uh, the spirit remains, and 73 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: all you have to do is take the bones of 74 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: the fish and bury them in the ground in four 75 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:03,160 Speaker 1: separate pots. Classic and has to hide each one under 76 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 1: her bed at the four corners. And then the spirit 77 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: also tells her that these bones she can keep talking 78 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: to them. It's a little morbid. I'm not going to 79 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: talk back. But what they will do, gentle listeners, is 80 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: grant her wishes. Once every year, people get together and 81 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 1: celebrate the New Year festival. This is an auspicious time. 82 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: This is also the time of year for young maidens 83 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: to meet potential husbands. Now, the stepmother, who is still 84 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: very much in play and very much a pill, doesn't 85 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: want to spoil her own daughter's choices. This is the 86 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: unpleasant daughter, so she makes her stepdaughter, Yes, stay home 87 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 1: and clean their house, which is also a cave by 88 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: the way, so she pictures she's on her knees scrubbing, 89 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: you know. And after her step family has left for 90 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: the big festival, Yeshan makes a silent wish to the bones, 91 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: and then she finds herself clothed in magnificent ramiant in 92 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:05,040 Speaker 1: a gown of sea green silk, a cloak of kingfisher feathers, 93 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 1: and a pair of golden slippers. She goes to the festival, 94 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:11,479 Speaker 1: so he shan't hot foots it to the festival, where 95 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,280 Speaker 1: she is the belle of the ball. Everyone admires her 96 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: and she becomes a sensation immediately. But then when she 97 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 1: notices that her wicked step family are there as well, 98 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 1: and she worries about being made, she equally hot foots 99 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,480 Speaker 1: it back home, and in her haste she trips and 100 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 1: loses one of the golden slippers that is left behind 101 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: and the only evidence of this remarkable woman that graced 102 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 1: this New year's celebration. The Fishbones, by the way, are 103 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: not on speaking terms with the Sean at this point, 104 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: because the bones had warned her not to lose even 105 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:51,160 Speaker 1: one of her slippers. She falls asleep, despondent under a tree. 106 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: Her step family comes back from the festival and they're 107 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 1: talking about this mysterious beauty, this real smoke show who 108 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:01,159 Speaker 1: appeared at the festival, but they don't know that they're 109 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 1: talking about Yeshan. The golden slipper is found by a 110 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 1: local peasant. There is a big fine for him. He 111 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: trades it and it's passed on to various people until 112 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 1: it reaches the hands of the nearby king of the 113 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: Tohan Islets. This is a powerful kingdom covering many thousands 114 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: of small islands. The king is fascinated by the small 115 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: size of this shoe, and he issues the search, saying 116 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 1: find the maiden and whose foot will fit in the shoe, 117 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 1: and if they find her, he proclaims he will marry 118 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: that girl. The search goes on without much luck until 119 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: it reaches a community of cave dwellers. Of course, no 120 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 1: one's foot will fit inside the slipper except Yeshi, but 121 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,239 Speaker 1: she is not allowed to come. Of course, her wicked 122 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: step family would not allow it. So she gets there 123 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 1: late to try to get the slipper back so she 124 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: can earn her way back into the good graces of 125 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: the four pots of fishbones. Um, and she is accused 126 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: of trying to steal the slipper right so um. She 127 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: has taken before the king and she's forced to make 128 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 1: her case, and she says, look, this is what happened. 129 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: I was abused of horrible home life, and then I 130 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: befriended this giant golden fish, and my evil stepmother's dad 131 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 1: been in the heart and then they ate it. In 132 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: the spirit of my ancestor told me to put the 133 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 1: fishbones into these four pots, and then I lost the slipper, 134 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:24,679 Speaker 1: and YadA, YadA, YadA. And the King, you know, clearly 135 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: not fazed by any of these bizarre details, is actually 136 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 1: struck by her goodness and her kindness and her forthright pluckiness, 137 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:35,719 Speaker 1: all of the things that we've loved about Yeshian from 138 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 1: the start of this story, and he allows her to 139 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: go home with both her life and the slipper. But 140 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: he's not done. He's still mystified by this, this, this 141 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 1: amazing striking beauty Yeshan. So he goes to her house 142 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 1: and he says, come with me, Come with me and 143 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:54,959 Speaker 1: live with me in my kingdom. Come away with me 144 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: and be my love, and so on. Yeeshan puts on 145 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: both of her slippers and appears in that beautiful sea 146 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 1: green gown. The stepmother and June Lee say there's no 147 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: way this broad could have these clothes, ye Shan, of 148 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:13,199 Speaker 1: all people, she is our slave. And the stepmother says, 149 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: the finery is my daughters, and this woman stole it. 150 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: And the king says, ah, you're lying, ye Shan. Don't 151 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:24,559 Speaker 1: just come away with me to the kingdom, be my wife. 152 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:29,079 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, be the queen, and she says, dope, yeah, totally. 153 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: She accepts, and her cruel step family is left to 154 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 1: their fate. In one version, they are banished to the 155 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: wilderness by the king forever. They live a harsh, unhappy 156 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:42,439 Speaker 1: life until the day that they are killed by a 157 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:47,079 Speaker 1: reign of fiery stones. And this is all happening while 158 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: Ye Shan is queen and they live happily ever after. 159 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: That's one version of the story. It's true. You've probably 160 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 1: figured out by this point with some of the recurring 161 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: tropes of fairy to hailed them, and specifically, uh, the 162 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 1: Cinderella story. Sorry for everyone who bet on Rapunzel. We 163 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: did an episode on that earlier. It's true and was it. 164 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: It was the root of the vegetable and Rapunzel. It 165 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: was like the lettuces, fine, fine lettuces. It felt pretty 166 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 1: Eastern Europe rampian, rampian ramps exactly. This is one of 167 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 1: the oldest known versions of the Cinderella tale that was 168 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: truly truly made popular um in the version in written 169 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:37,079 Speaker 1: and published by Charles Perrault, a Frenchman, but in eight 170 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: fifty a d in China, this story was clearly first 171 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: to the finish line. The story of Cinderella is one 172 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 1: of the most popular stories in the world, and we 173 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 1: can see variants of it not just in the West, 174 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: not just in China, but in Indonesia and many other countries. 175 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: Because people love a good story. We are a communicative species. 176 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 1: The variant that's most well known in the West is 177 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 1: the version you mentioned earlier. Nol that's Charles will hang 178 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 1: on just to be safe, Hey, Casey, Yeah, I think 179 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 1: you'd say it more like Charles Perro Perro Casey on 180 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: the case. So this, this version is the most well 181 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: known for us here and for many people in Europe perhaps, 182 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 1: But like any other tale, folklore is anthropologists historians are 183 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 1: more spend countless hours trying to figure out the origination 184 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: of the story. Right, So you'll hear people say this 185 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: story is Chinese in origin, right, like you mentioned before, No, 186 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: because that's the earliest recorded version you'll find. But you'll 187 00:11:55,160 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: also hear people say that the story originated in ancient Egypt. 188 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: Did you see that part? I did? And I think 189 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 1: that version has been largely debunked, right, Yes, that got debunked. 190 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 1: I think the claim they were attempting to make there 191 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 1: was that they could attribute it to the Greek historian Strabo. 192 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 1: But it feels kind of like an echo chamber. It 193 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:20,199 Speaker 1: feels like a lot of people are just quoting themselves, 194 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: you know what I mean? And then they fell victim 195 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 1: to forgery. A Mrs Olive Miller of Aurora, Illinois reimagined 196 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: the Greek historian story, intertwined it with Pero's tale, and 197 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 1: then created this quote unquote ancient Egyptian Cinderella, and people 198 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:41,679 Speaker 1: fell for it. So don't fall for that, we're telling 199 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 1: you right now. The Chinese story seems to be the 200 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 1: genuine article here, right, and that would have taken place 201 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 1: during the Tang dynasty, which is between six eighteen and 202 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 1: nine oh seven CE, whereas the Seal Perol version did 203 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 1: not uh see publication until six And this is interesting 204 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: because we're talking about the proliferation of storytelling in some 205 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: ways before the written word, right, A lot of these 206 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 1: were probably communicated orally. I have to say, this is 207 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 1: just my opinion that it feels like there are too 208 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,599 Speaker 1: many similarities for this to be parallel thinking, right that 209 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 1: we've got we've got the evil step parents and sibling. 210 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:27,440 Speaker 1: We've got the magical assistant, we've got the wise old counsel, 211 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 1: the orphaned beauty, the orphaned beauty, we've got the magic clothing, 212 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: the magic slipper. In particular, talking animals, talking animals, enchanted 213 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 1: talking animals. Disney really leaned into that part too. I 214 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:42,559 Speaker 1: wish they you know, I don't know. I don't want 215 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 1: to knock Disney Cinderella. I thought it was a good ride, sure, absolutely, um, 216 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: but here's the thing. We've got all of these hallmarks 217 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: that were then reworked in the seventeenth century Italian version 218 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 1: that was even before Perot's work by the poet giam 219 00:13:56,040 --> 00:14:00,160 Speaker 1: Battista Basile, who was born in fifteen sixty six and 220 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: died in sixty two c e um. And this was 221 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: released in posthumously in his quite famous children's book Il 222 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 1: pentamarone uh and that was in sixteen thirty four, which 223 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:18,200 Speaker 1: included a version of this story called Lagata sinerentola which 224 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 1: means the Cat Cinderella, which is recognized as the first 225 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 1: appearance of the story in print. And it was already 226 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: a widely known tale throughout Italy because of that proliferation 227 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: of these stories and these folks, these folk tales. Um. 228 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: It was then reworked and republished in Germany and Russia 229 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: in several forms. And Patricia Montaghan, who is a scholar 230 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: of of literature, wrote about the Cinderella tale that the 231 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: thousand year old circulation of Cinderella's story makes it the 232 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 1: world's best known fairy tale, but no one can really 233 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: say where it began or when Cinderella's magic slippers brought 234 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: her to Europe. It's pretty crazy. So the oldest known 235 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: oral version of the story is an ancient Greek story 236 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: called Rhodopis, but that's the one that's still like largely debunked. 237 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: It has some similarities, but it's not a pitch perfect 238 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 1: Cinderella story. There's also a twelfth century French version. Uh. 239 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 1: There's the Japanese folk tale Sumiyoshi Manogatari, which is pretty 240 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: much Cinderella. You can even find versions of Cinderella's story 241 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: in one thousand and one Nights, also known as Arabian Nights. Uh. 242 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: It's it's strange how how completely this has inundated our 243 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: our consciousness, our fairy tale consciousness. And I'm fascinated. I 244 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: don't have the answer to this, but I am fascinated 245 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: by imagining the path this story must have taken around campfires, 246 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: maybe at a caravan, sorry, maybe at a spot on 247 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 1: the Silk Road. You know, as as they're transporting goods 248 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: back and forth, they're also transporting these stories. So let's 249 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about some of the similarities and 250 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 1: differences between the Yeshian version of the story. And we 251 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: have Paro's version, which was published under the name Sindrillon 252 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 1: and then of course we have the quite famous Brothers 253 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: Grim version, which was known as ashan Puto, which means 254 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: ash girl. Um. So here's some of the things that 255 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: struck me. Uh, the the slippers um and the fact 256 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: that it's tied to the feature of this princess of 257 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: this you know, great beauty as having small feet. I 258 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: think that's very fascinating because tracing it back to the 259 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 1: Chinese version of the story, as we know, in Chinese culture, 260 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: it was very much a feature of great beauty and 261 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: daintiness and lady likeness to have very small feet, with 262 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: the terrible practice of foot bind absolutely, and there was 263 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: one version of the Yeshian story that we saw that 264 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: imparted some sort of magical powers on the slipper that 265 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: anyone who would place their foot inside the slipper, their 266 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:11,160 Speaker 1: foot would magically shrink. So there's definitely some some big 267 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:16,360 Speaker 1: foot stuff going on in this YC version. Not Tarantino associated, No, 268 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: not Tarantino associated, but definitely like valuing that feature above 269 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 1: anything else, you know, because that's literally the king is like, 270 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: whoever's got the daintiest feet is the one that I 271 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 1: will make my bride. He wasn't even at the ball 272 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: that's a feature in the Escan version of the story 273 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:35,919 Speaker 1: that's really interesting because in the Parole version, or at 274 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 1: least in the one that we know from the Disney film, 275 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 1: uh that prince sees Cinderella at the ball and remarks 276 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: upon her beauty, the slipper is literally just looked at 277 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:47,719 Speaker 1: as like a piece of the puzzle to try to 278 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: find this beautiful woman. In this one, the king's side 279 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 1: unseen saying, whoever's got the smallest feet that are going 280 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,399 Speaker 1: to fit into these golden slippers, I will wife immediately. 281 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: And just like the Western version of Cinderella, there are 282 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,959 Speaker 1: alternate versions and alternate endings to the story of Yan. 283 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 1: So we talked about how the stepmother and the step 284 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 1: sister die in a rain of fiery stones. What what's 285 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: interesting to me about this is it has the ring 286 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:21,119 Speaker 1: of truth because many older fairy tales have completely grewsome 287 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: consequences for the batties right the pills in the story. 288 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: In another version of the Yeshan story, the stepmother and 289 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,199 Speaker 1: step sister are buried in a shrine called get this, 290 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 1: the Tomb of the Regretful Women. They become goddesses in 291 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: a later tradition and they can grant wishes eventually. See 292 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: that's really interesting because they almost come out on top, 293 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 1: at least legacy wise, and that right they are imbued 294 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: with magical powers. It goes on. So in the alternate version, 295 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 1: Yeshan and the king do not actually live happily. Ever, 296 00:18:55,880 --> 00:19:00,040 Speaker 1: after her husband gets greedy and he starts abusing the 297 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: power of the four pots of fish bones until it 298 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: runs out of magic. It stops granting wishes, and the 299 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:09,919 Speaker 1: queen buries the bones on a nearby beach with a 300 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,920 Speaker 1: ton of gold. A year later, the king's people are 301 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:15,919 Speaker 1: tired of his malarkey. They lead a revolt, and the 302 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: king tries to dig up the fish bones and give 303 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 1: the gold to the rebels, but the gold had washed 304 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 1: away with the tide, along with the magical bones, and 305 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,200 Speaker 1: nobody knows what happened to the king and his bride 306 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 1: Yeshan after the siege. I think that's an amazing ending. 307 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: I think that's really pretty compelling and cool, because that's 308 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: how people actually are, uh, disappointing kind of. That's the 309 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 1: thing about fairy tales. It's like, you know the whole 310 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 1: you know, because we know the grim stories typically did 311 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,120 Speaker 1: end with some horrible stuff happening to to our characters, 312 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 1: right to the to the antagonist, to the antagonist. Yes 313 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 1: that's true, but even in general, sometimes to get to 314 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:57,119 Speaker 1: the place where you win, some horrible things have to happen, 315 00:19:57,200 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 1: like with a little mermaid, for example, when she gets 316 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 1: human legs in the hands Christian Anderson version of that story, 317 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: she's described as having like stinging pain, like knives and 318 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,120 Speaker 1: swords through her feet and legs as she walked or whatever, 319 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 1: when she got legs from being a mermaid. Have you 320 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 1: read Joseph Campbell, he wrote with a thousand faces, I 321 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: am aware of it. I have not read that one. 322 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 1: I love the troupe because what you're describing is that 323 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: same like venturing out into unknown, dangerous territory, and you 324 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 1: have to hit a low status to get to a 325 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 1: higher states exactly. And for this one, um again with 326 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:33,400 Speaker 1: the retribution. Uh so, instead of we don't have flaming 327 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 1: stones or burial alive, one would assume of the wicked 328 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: step sister and the wicked stepmother. But in the Grim 329 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: Brothers version, you do have the wicked stepmother convincing her 330 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: stepdaughters to slice off parts of their own feet so 331 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 1: that they can fit inside of the shoe, which you 332 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: think would be a pretty obvious ruse, you know, especially 333 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 1: for a dude that's potentially maybe in defeat. I don't 334 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: think you would want mangled feet, right, and her all things, 335 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: And that's okay when once your royalty you will never 336 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,399 Speaker 1: have to walk. You'll be presumably carried around on a 337 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 1: palanquint all the time, right, So who needs your feet 338 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 1: when you can have riches untold? You know? Yeah, yeah, 339 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,440 Speaker 1: it was a very palanquin heavy industry at the time 340 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: in fairy tale Land. It's so fascinating to examine how 341 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 1: these stories proliferate, how they change, how they create such 342 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 1: a rich, dense variety of adventure and fantasy and intrigue 343 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 1: and magic. And this is a thought that I've been 344 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 1: having since we decided to do this episode. I'm very 345 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:48,879 Speaker 1: curious about this. Do you think, you, Casey, you know, 346 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 1: and all of us listening, do you think that there 347 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:57,920 Speaker 1: will be future versions of stories like this Cinderella Rapunzel, 348 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 1: you know, the what are some other ones? Brumples still 349 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:03,439 Speaker 1: skin and so on? Do you think there will be 350 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:08,400 Speaker 1: future versions that historians will look back on, maybe eight 351 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,440 Speaker 1: and one thousand years from now if we make it. Uh, 352 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 1: and if so, like what might change? Yeah, I don't know, 353 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: because like we're not into the whole brevity of fables anymore, 354 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: you know, even like our biggest literary like hallmarks, like 355 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 1: the cultural milestones, like a Harry Potter or something like that, 356 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 1: they're not short. You can't really sum up Harry Potter 357 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 1: and the Journey of Harry Potter like in like a tiny, little, 358 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 1: you know paragraph, which is sort of what makes these 359 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 1: folk tales important because they're easy to tell and they're 360 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 1: easy to carry over to tell somebody quickly on the road. Right. Uh, 361 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 1: it feels like the short story, Like can you I 362 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 1: can't think of a single like super famous short story 363 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 1: from the last twenty years, from the last twenty years, 364 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 1: I know, fifty years whatever. Like I can't think of 365 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,159 Speaker 1: a super famous short story other than maybe like a 366 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 1: good Man is Hard to Find or whatever from good 367 00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 1: Country People, the Nine Bill, the Names of God. I 368 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 1: don't know those. Uh, where I'm calling fear more of 369 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:05,959 Speaker 1: a reader than me of that kind of stuff. I'm 370 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: just saying in terms of something that would stand the 371 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: test of time and be carried on in oral tradition. 372 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 1: I think they need to be short and pithy and 373 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 1: communicate some sort of universal ideal. Sure time is the 374 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 1: most brutal and efficient editor of all. That's why a 375 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: lot of stuff we remember from the days of the 376 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 1: ancients is often going to be paraphrased or or shortened. 377 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: I want to correct where I'm calling from as a 378 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,680 Speaker 1: book by Raymond Carver. The story I was thinking of 379 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: is a story called Cathedral. And to your point goal, 380 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: I would add that I don't know how many of 381 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 1: those stories are what we would consider mainstream. Everyone in 382 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: the US is vaguely aware of the story of Cinderella, 383 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. But I don't think we 384 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,360 Speaker 1: can say the same for a lot of short stories. 385 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,199 Speaker 1: You know what, maybe there's one we're missing, maybe we 386 00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 1: have a blind spot. Let us know, let us know 387 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: what uh what you think is a modern fairy tale 388 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 1: or original or or new version of the fairy tale 389 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: that everyone knows, or something that in the future maybe 390 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 1: looked at the same way that we look at the 391 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 1: evolution of Cinderella today. Thank you so much for listening. 392 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 1: As always, big shout out to our super producer Casey 393 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 1: Pegram Casey. Just by the way, do you have a 394 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:28,159 Speaker 1: Do you have a favorite fairy tale? Favorite fairy tale? No, no, 395 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 1: you're not moved by no Princess in the Frog not really. 396 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 1: No favorite short story shirt, but not fairy tale. I'm 397 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:38,359 Speaker 1: a big Raymond Carver fan. Two. Oh, nice nold. Do 398 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 1: you have a favorite fairy tale? I've always been pretty 399 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: fascinated by a Handling Gretel because of the macabre qualities 400 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 1: of it, you know, with the cannibalistic child eating witch 401 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: living in a house made of candy. It's it's sort 402 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 1: of like a classic cautionary tale against talking to strangers. Um, 403 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: but it has some nice magical undertones. And I grew 404 00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 1: up um. There's an opera version of it by Ingleberd 405 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 1: Humperdink that you know. My mom was an opera saying 406 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: we always was singing pieces from that with her students. 407 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: And there is a really really creepy and cool claimation 408 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 1: version of that opera I saw when I was a kid, 409 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 1: and that russis out of me. Yeah, I think so, yeah, 410 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 1: I think I've I've seen that or something like it. 411 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 1: I would I would say disney wise. I feel like 412 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 1: I have to differentiate Disney Wise. I was a big 413 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 1: fan of Sleeping Beauty, just because of the moment at 414 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 1: the end where Maleficent turns into this amazing dragon creature. 415 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: Also char no box yarn, no bog. I think in Fantasia. 416 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 1: I don't know. It's a tough question, and we want 417 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 1: to hear from you. What are your favorite fairy tales? 418 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,719 Speaker 1: What are your favorite variants of fairy tales? Do you 419 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,440 Speaker 1: have a particular favorite fairy tale that might be unfamiliar 420 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 1: to us and your fellow listeners. If so, we'd love 421 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 1: to hear from you. You can find us on Facebook. 422 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram. You can find us 423 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: on Twitter. We highly recommend our Facebook group page Ridiculous Historians, 424 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 1: where we found out that we were on broadcast radio. 425 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: It's true, Um, what's you know? What was once old 426 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 1: is now new again. By the way, the name of 427 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 1: the artist that did that Handling Gretel thing, which is 428 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:20,119 Speaker 1: called Handling Gretel and opera fantasy is Evald's Dayevskis, And 429 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 1: he was a Russian immigrant and did the work for 430 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,959 Speaker 1: that in New York City. It was Russian somehow, right. 431 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: Big thanks to Alex Williams, who composed our theme. Big 432 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 1: thanks to Christopher Hasciotas and research associates Gabe Luzier and 433 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 1: Ryan Barrish. Thank you, Joe. I guess this podcast did 434 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 1: end happily ever after. We'll see you next time. Books. 435 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the I 436 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to 437 00:26:58,320 --> 00:26:59,199 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.