1
00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:07,560
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

2
00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:10,440
Speaker 1: day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

3
00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:13,399
Speaker 1: important legal news of the day. You can find more

4
00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:18,040
Speaker 1: episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud

5
00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:22,640
Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. Judge ay Berman

6
00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:25,440
Speaker 1: Jackson has read the Riot Act to Roger Stone about

7
00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:28,520
Speaker 1: his relentless pursuit of publicity and put him under a

8
00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:31,280
Speaker 1: strict gag order that forbids him from speaking about his

9
00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:35,120
Speaker 1: criminal case or special counsel Robert Muller. Now Stone is

10
00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:38,360
Speaker 1: trying to explain himself to the judge once again, saying

11
00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:40,720
Speaker 1: that he didn't mean to mislead her when he failed

12
00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:43,400
Speaker 1: to tell her about the paperback release of a book

13
00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:47,600
Speaker 1: he wrote about the election, complete with a new introduction

14
00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:51,400
Speaker 1: and title, The Myth of Russian Collusion. In it, he

15
00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:54,200
Speaker 1: refers to Mueller as a crook, joining me as former

16
00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:58,600
Speaker 1: federal prosecutor Robert Min's a partner, McCarter and English Bob.

17
00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:01,960
Speaker 1: In a March first warts filing, Stones lawyers referred to

18
00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:04,960
Speaker 1: the book as an upcoming release when it's been available

19
00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:09,600
Speaker 1: online since February nine. There are emails talking about whether

20
00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:13,839
Speaker 1: publishing the book would break the gag order from February

21
00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:19,160
Speaker 1: fifteen through February, how do they explain not telling the

22
00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:24,640
Speaker 1: judge about the book while they're litigating the gag order. Well,

23
00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:27,000
Speaker 1: that's going to be the big question here, because if

24
00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:30,800
Speaker 1: there's one thing that is going to anger Judge Jackson

25
00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:36,559
Speaker 1: here in addition to rager Stone potentially violating the gag order,

26
00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:39,440
Speaker 1: it's that they were not candid with her when they

27
00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:43,080
Speaker 1: last appeared in front of her, essentially on this very issue.

28
00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:45,880
Speaker 1: So if it turns out as it appears, that there

29
00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:49,080
Speaker 1: were emails and discussions and that at the time they

30
00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,200
Speaker 1: appeared in court they knew this book was coming out

31
00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:57,080
Speaker 1: with these incendiary comments about Robert Mueller in the new introduction,

32
00:01:57,640 --> 00:01:59,760
Speaker 1: She's going to be very angry and may well this

33
00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,120
Speaker 1: side to put Roger Stone in prison leading up to

34
00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:06,200
Speaker 1: his trial. Well, this is a tough judge who put

35
00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:11,280
Speaker 1: Paul Manafort behind bars pending trial for interfering with a witness.

36
00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,720
Speaker 1: She lets Stone off with just a tougher gag order

37
00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:18,440
Speaker 1: last time. But she did say this is not baseball.

38
00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:22,520
Speaker 1: You don't get a third chance. Does that sort of

39
00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:24,960
Speaker 1: put her in the spot of having to put him

40
00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:28,600
Speaker 1: in prison, or could there be some lesser kind of

41
00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:34,560
Speaker 1: fine or gag order. Well, I think judges are reluctant

42
00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:38,280
Speaker 1: to put people in prison leading up to a trial.

43
00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,360
Speaker 1: In the case of Paul Manafort, the accusation was that

44
00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:44,840
Speaker 1: there was witness tampering, which really is in many ways

45
00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:47,919
Speaker 1: a more serious defense because it goes to the real

46
00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:52,240
Speaker 1: heart of the trial. The allegation is that you're trying

47
00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,560
Speaker 1: to affect witness testimony, and that really is a very

48
00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:58,520
Speaker 1: very serious issue. This is a little less serious in

49
00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,200
Speaker 1: the sense that it is simply give these statements to

50
00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:05,079
Speaker 1: the public and perhaps affecting the jury pool for this trial.

51
00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:07,880
Speaker 1: But I think here the judge drew a pretty bright

52
00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:12,079
Speaker 1: red line, and it appears at roger Stone crossed that line.

53
00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:16,840
Speaker 1: And judges are reluctant to give you a chance. Have

54
00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:21,240
Speaker 1: you then essentially violate the order and then come back

55
00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,360
Speaker 1: and give you a second chance. So she could do

56
00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:26,920
Speaker 1: either one. She could leave him out, But I wouldn't

57
00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:29,000
Speaker 1: be surprised to see if she decides to put him

58
00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:32,040
Speaker 1: in jail. If she decides to leave him out, what

59
00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:36,800
Speaker 1: could she do that she hasn't done already? Well, in

60
00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:40,200
Speaker 1: addition to making it very clear that he is not

61
00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:43,240
Speaker 1: to make any public statements or to tweet, or to

62
00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:46,880
Speaker 1: do any other things that he's already done, she could,

63
00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:51,920
Speaker 1: for example, prohibit him from tweeting at all. She could

64
00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,040
Speaker 1: say that he is not allowed to go onto the internet.

65
00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:56,320
Speaker 1: She could put him under house to rest. She could

66
00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,880
Speaker 1: prohibit him from having contact with anybody in the media.

67
00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:02,000
Speaker 1: So there are a number of things she could do

68
00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:05,000
Speaker 1: to kind of tighten the noose short of putting him

69
00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:09,480
Speaker 1: in jail. We've talked before about how Roger Stone has

70
00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:13,160
Speaker 1: this relentless pursuit of publicity and this at this point

71
00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:17,159
Speaker 1: he does apparently Dean Bunny for his defense. According to

72
00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:19,719
Speaker 1: the court papers that and the emails, the books have

73
00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,880
Speaker 1: not been flying off the shelves even since his arrest,

74
00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:27,360
Speaker 1: which was highly publicized. Could this possibly be a publicity

75
00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:31,120
Speaker 1: stunt to draw attention to the book and more sales

76
00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:36,320
Speaker 1: or is that too dangerous? Well, that's the cynical view here,

77
00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:40,080
Speaker 1: and anybody who knows about Roger Stone and his history

78
00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:43,000
Speaker 1: knows that this is an individual who sort of flirts

79
00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:49,000
Speaker 1: with the line of disaster and is courting publicity, even

80
00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:52,000
Speaker 1: when that publicity sometimes may not be all positive, and

81
00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:55,880
Speaker 1: even when that publicity could possibly land him in jail.

82
00:04:56,279 --> 00:05:00,200
Speaker 1: So the judge may well view him as using the

83
00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:03,680
Speaker 1: court as a vehicle for promoting his book, which will

84
00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:06,960
Speaker 1: only further anger the judge. And I think he will

85
00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,440
Speaker 1: seriously clip his wings if she doesn't put him in jail. Altogether,

86
00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:14,680
Speaker 1: this judge is going to be sentencing Paul Manafort. His

87
00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:19,880
Speaker 1: first sentencing was really caused a lot of uproar because

88
00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:23,479
Speaker 1: it was so lenient and uproar about the judicial system

89
00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:27,279
Speaker 1: as well as the judge sentencing in this particular case.

90
00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:34,159
Speaker 1: What's likely from Judge Jackson tomorrow. Well, Judge Jackson is

91
00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:38,240
Speaker 1: a different judge than Judge Ellis who sentenced Paul Manafort

92
00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:42,880
Speaker 1: in the trial in Virginia. But Judge Jackson also has

93
00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:46,160
Speaker 1: different facts before her because he was the one, as

94
00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:49,880
Speaker 1: you mentioned June, who put Paul Manafort in prison for

95
00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:55,279
Speaker 1: campering with witnesses. She also is aware of the sentence

96
00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:59,200
Speaker 1: that Paul Manafort received from Judge Ellis, and I think

97
00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,480
Speaker 1: that we will see a sentence here that certainly adds

98
00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:06,200
Speaker 1: additional time to the prison time that Paul Mantifort got

99
00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:08,840
Speaker 1: from Judge Ellis. That was a sentence that was viewed

100
00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:12,800
Speaker 1: as highly controversial. The sentence and guidelines were about twenty years,

101
00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,839
Speaker 1: and while everybody expected there to be a departure downward,

102
00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,080
Speaker 1: very few people expected a departure as low as forty

103
00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:22,200
Speaker 1: seven months, which is what he received from Judge Ellis.

104
00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:24,880
Speaker 1: So I think we can almost certainly count on additional

105
00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:28,359
Speaker 1: jail time coming out of this sentence from Juke Jackson.

106
00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:32,200
Speaker 1: Whether that's done by giving consecutive time or whether she

107
00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:34,799
Speaker 1: just adds a sentence that is beyond the forty seven

108
00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:37,240
Speaker 1: months that was imposed by Jig Ellis, right, will be

109
00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,120
Speaker 1: very interesting to see how she handles that and how

110
00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:43,400
Speaker 1: different it is, if at all, from Judge Ellis. Thanks

111
00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:47,040
Speaker 1: so much, Bob. That's Robert Manzy's a former federal prosecutor

112
00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,800
Speaker 1: and a partner now at McCarter in English. Thanks for

113
00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:54,120
Speaker 1: listening to the Bloomberg Law podcast. You can subscribe and

114
00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:57,440
Speaker 1: listen to the show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and on

115
00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:01,640
Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot com slash podcast. I am June Brosso. This

116
00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:08,720
Speaker 1: is Bloomberg h