WEBVTT - How and why do trees get so old?

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<v Speaker 1>The oldest tree we know of is Methuselah, a great

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<v Speaker 1>basin bristle cone pine that is almost five thousand years old.

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<v Speaker 1>Methuselah began putting down its roots during the Age of

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<v Speaker 1>the Pyramids in ancient Egypt. It also lived through the

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<v Speaker 1>rise and the fall of ancient Greece and ancient Rome

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<v Speaker 1>as well. Pamarabi, Nephertidi, Buddha, Pythagoras, Confucius, Socrates, Alexander the Great, Cleopatra,

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<v Speaker 1>Genghis Khan, Joan of Arc, Da Vinci, Copernicus, Ivan the Terrible, Shakespeare, Pocahontas, Newton, Hamilton, Mozart, Napoleon, Lincoln, Darwin, Nightingale, Pasture, Edison, Gandhi, Hitler, Parks,

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<v Speaker 1>Mandela Martin, Luther King Junior, and Betty White. Generations of

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<v Speaker 1>humans have struggled and strove, some making the world better,

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<v Speaker 1>some making it worse, but all of them lived out

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<v Speaker 1>their entire lives in just a sliver of the time

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<v Speaker 1>during which Methuselah has been patiently growing in the White

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<v Speaker 1>Mountains of California. There's something both bewildering and awe inspiring

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<v Speaker 1>about incredibly old trees, and today we're going to be

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<v Speaker 1>talking about what we know about them, how do we

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<v Speaker 1>age trees, and how and why do some trees live

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<v Speaker 1>so long? Welcome to Daniel and Kelly's extraordinarily tremendous universe.

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<v Speaker 2>Hi. I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, and I round

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<v Speaker 2>myself up to fifty years old.

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<v Speaker 1>Hello. I am Kelly Wiener Smith. I study parasites and space,

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<v Speaker 1>and I round myself down to forty. You're even older

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<v Speaker 1>than I am than I had realized. Daniel.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh wow, what a wonderful thing to hear.

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<v Speaker 1>All about how you round. Although you know, I thought

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<v Speaker 1>we had both agreed that we round up on average,

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<v Speaker 1>But at only forty two, I think I'm gonna go

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<v Speaker 1>ahead and round down.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. No, I think that's fair. Who really needs more

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<v Speaker 2>significant digits than one? Right?

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<v Speaker 1>That's right? That's right. Do you have a favorite tree?

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<v Speaker 2>Do I have a favorite tree? I love the redwoods,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, out here in California. I gotta say that's

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<v Speaker 2>something spectacular about California and the mystery, the majesty of

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<v Speaker 2>being the presence of these super tall and super old

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<v Speaker 2>beings and thinking about all the things they've seen experienced.

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<v Speaker 2>I love it. I just love old trees in general.

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<v Speaker 2>Like when you drive down a street in a neighborhood

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<v Speaker 2>that's like one hundred years old, and the trees like

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<v Speaker 2>cross over the street or have all these wiggles and

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<v Speaker 2>branches where it's like a new suburb with these like

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<v Speaker 2>tiny little potted plant trees, it's just a little sad.

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<v Speaker 2>So old trees are wonderful because it's something you got

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<v Speaker 2>to earn. It just takes time. You know, you can't

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<v Speaker 2>like fast grow a tree to a huge size.

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<v Speaker 1>I totally agree. When I lived in California, I had

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<v Speaker 1>to go see the Redwoods and I realized that I'd

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<v Speaker 1>been like looking up at one of those trees with

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<v Speaker 1>my mouth open, and I was like so glad nothing

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<v Speaker 1>had fallen into it, because I was just like I

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<v Speaker 1>must have stood there for, you know, fifteen minutes just

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<v Speaker 1>looking at the same tree being like, Ah, the things

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<v Speaker 1>that you've seen or you know, have been alive through.

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<v Speaker 1>It's just incredible. And then I had the great pleasure

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<v Speaker 1>of working at Race University for a while, which I

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<v Speaker 1>know is where you did your undergrad and they've got

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<v Speaker 1>that running track around the outside of the university that

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<v Speaker 1>is surrounded by live oaks, and they're the ones that

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<v Speaker 1>have those like tortuous arms that like go back, they down,

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<v Speaker 1>they touch the ground, they come back up again. Oh,

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<v Speaker 1>they're so gorgeous. I actually don't know how old those

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<v Speaker 1>live oaks are, but there's something about a big tree

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<v Speaker 1>that I love.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and Rice has so many trees. I think there's

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<v Speaker 2>something in the charter that they have to have more

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<v Speaker 2>trees on campus than students, that they really preserve the

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<v Speaker 2>trees on the campus.

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<v Speaker 1>I can't believe they've got more trees on campus than students.

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<v Speaker 1>If so, they got to shut that place down. Man,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think that's working out.

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<v Speaker 2>Well. I gotta ask you call of the obvious question.

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<v Speaker 2>Given California's redwoods and the majesty of our old trees,

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<v Speaker 2>what does Virginia have to compare. I'm giving you an

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<v Speaker 2>opportunity here.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh my god, this is easy. So California is beautiful.

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<v Speaker 1>But have you been to Shanandoah National Park?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh? I have land of many uses.

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<v Speaker 1>Many uses? What do you mean, like you're gonna cut

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<v Speaker 1>my trees down?

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<v Speaker 2>No? I just remember camping in the Blue Ridge Mountains

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<v Speaker 2>one time, and there was a sign when you enter,

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<v Speaker 2>It's like welcome to the Blue Ridge Mountains a land

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<v Speaker 2>of many uses, and well, I wonder what that means.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I don't remember seeing that on the side, but

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<v Speaker 1>like you've gone camping and the Blue Ridge answer is obvious.

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<v Speaker 1>It's just so gorgeous seeing all of those rolling hills

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<v Speaker 1>with all the trees and the like mist coming up

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<v Speaker 1>over them in the mornings and seeing the sunset. There's

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<v Speaker 1>like no more beautiful view in all of the United

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<v Speaker 1>States than what you get. I'm laying down the gauntlet, man.

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<v Speaker 2>I was with you up until that point. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>I like the Blue Ridge Mountains for mountains, they're cute.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, they're not that tall or that.

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<v Speaker 1>Point d That's why they're so nice to walk.

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<v Speaker 2>I like a nice granite topped mountain, you know, like

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<v Speaker 2>above the tree line. That's my jam. And the Sierras,

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<v Speaker 2>for example, Oh yeah. And I just don't think you

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<v Speaker 2>can compare to the majesty of the coastal Redwoods. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>nothing stands up to that. In my opinion, those are beautiful.

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<v Speaker 1>I'll give you that. I don't feel like I want

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<v Speaker 1>to pit one natural beauty against another, but I can

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<v Speaker 1>say that in grad school I tried hiking White Mountain

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<v Speaker 1>where the Bristol Cone Pines are. So we talked about

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<v Speaker 1>Methusela in the opening, and you know, I was climbing

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<v Speaker 1>up there and the air was getting thin and I

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<v Speaker 1>was like feeling miserable, and you know, so no, give

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<v Speaker 1>me Shanandoah any day where I could breathe. It's like

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<v Speaker 1>I don't want to go to space. I don't want

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<v Speaker 1>to go to White Mountain.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. No, it's beautiful, absolutely, I'll give you that. And

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<v Speaker 2>you're right, we shouldn't pit one against the other. There's

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<v Speaker 2>lots of different ways to be beautiful and we should

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<v Speaker 2>appreciate all of it.

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<v Speaker 1>Amen. All right, And so we had this absolutely incredible

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<v Speaker 1>question from a listener's son about old trees, and that's

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<v Speaker 1>what we're going to be talking about today. But before

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<v Speaker 1>we listen to the question, I want to remind you

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<v Speaker 1>that you can send us your questions or you can

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<v Speaker 1>send us your kids questions at questions at Daniel and

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<v Speaker 1>Kelly dot org.

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<v Speaker 2>We really love hearing from you, and we love hearing

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<v Speaker 2>from your kids. Thank you to everybody who listens to

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<v Speaker 2>the pod with your kid. It's a great way to

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<v Speaker 2>start conversations about science.

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<v Speaker 1>Yay, all right, So let's hear the question that we're

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<v Speaker 1>chatting about today.

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<v Speaker 3>Hi, Daniel Kelly, I have a question, why does some

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<v Speaker 3>trees live longer than other trees? And why do they

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<v Speaker 3>live longer than people?

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<v Speaker 2>This is a great question because this is a question

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<v Speaker 2>I've had since I was a kid, looking at those

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<v Speaker 2>redwoods and wondering like, why do they live so long?

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<v Speaker 2>How do they live so long? What's going on?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's a fantastic question, and it was one where

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<v Speaker 1>when I listened to it, I thought, oh, this is

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<v Speaker 1>another one where I don't really know the answer, and

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<v Speaker 1>so I was thrilled to have an opportunity to do

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<v Speaker 1>some research. And so let's start this conversation by talking

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<v Speaker 1>about how we even go about are in the first place.

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<v Speaker 1>I think a lot of us are familiar with the

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<v Speaker 1>idea that you can age trees based on their rings,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's a little bit more complicated, So.

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<v Speaker 2>You can't just chop down the tree and count the rings.

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<v Speaker 1>Danduel, Yes, but then you're a monster.

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<v Speaker 2>Well it reminds me of that Far Side cartoon where

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<v Speaker 2>the guy is standing there with his son and axe

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<v Speaker 2>and he's chopped down some big tree and he's going

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<v Speaker 2>through the history of the tree, all the things. The

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<v Speaker 2>tree has survived until of course that day that he

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<v Speaker 2>chopped it.

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<v Speaker 1>Down, right, but it couldn't survive us. Uh, that's sad.

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<v Speaker 2>So tell me then, how do we know how old

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<v Speaker 2>a tree is without chopping it down and counting its rings.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, for a while there, we were using relational ages,

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<v Speaker 1>so you would say, oh, well, the tree was planted

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<v Speaker 1>around the time the Parthenon was built or something like that.

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<v Speaker 1>And so Pliny was using these relational ages where he

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<v Speaker 1>would age trees based on historical stuff that was happening

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<v Speaker 1>at the same time.

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<v Speaker 2>But how would you know what historical stuff was happening

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<v Speaker 2>at the same time. How would you know this tree

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<v Speaker 2>was planted at the same time the Parthenon or something.

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<v Speaker 1>I think records and institutional memory. But you're right, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>you don't know unless somebody happens to know local knowledge.

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<v Speaker 2>And that you can trust that knowledge.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I bet they got a lot of ages wrong.

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<v Speaker 1>But that can't work great, I.

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<v Speaker 2>Mean, I'm sure there's a lot of mythology, right. People

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<v Speaker 2>are like, there's trees thousands of years old, and because

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<v Speaker 2>people are bad at deep time, you know, oh.

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<v Speaker 1>My gosh, so bad. And I was reading this book

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<v Speaker 1>called Elder Flora, and it talks about sort of the

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<v Speaker 1>history of our relationship with old trees and how we

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<v Speaker 1>often get the ages wrong, and how trees become important

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<v Speaker 1>for religious ceremonies and stuff, and so anyway, anyone who's

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<v Speaker 1>interested in old trees, that's a good book worth checking out.

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<v Speaker 1>But towards the end of the nineteenth century, and I'm

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<v Speaker 1>surprised this wasn't common earlier, we started getting a handle

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<v Speaker 1>on aging trees by counting their rings. So let's talk

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<v Speaker 1>about the science behind where these rings come from.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, why do trees have rings? And why do they

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<v Speaker 2>have one ring per year? Anyway?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, right, great question. Why doesn't the inside of a

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<v Speaker 1>tree all look the same?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean I don't have rings. If you cut

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<v Speaker 2>me open, you couldn't count my age.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, we don't really know until we try.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe we should start with a core sample.

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<v Speaker 1>That's right, Yes, that's right. I'll get off my increment borer.

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<v Speaker 1>But we'll get to that. So, so here's how trees grow.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, Say you do do the horrible act of

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<v Speaker 1>cutting down a tree, which of course sometimes you have

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<v Speaker 1>to do, and we all use paper so anyway, no judgment.

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<v Speaker 1>So you cut down a tree, you're looking at the

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<v Speaker 1>center of a tree. The center part of the tree

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<v Speaker 1>is called heartwood. And if it's a big tree, that

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<v Speaker 1>center part is actually dead.

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<v Speaker 2>Why is it called heartwood if it's dead.

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<v Speaker 1>Trees are weird, and that's going to be the theme

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<v Speaker 1>of today's show, I think, is that trees are weird. So,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the listener wanted to know why humans don't

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<v Speaker 1>live as long as trees, and I think the answer

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<v Speaker 1>is trees are weird. And you know, I'll do a

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<v Speaker 1>better job of answering that at the end of the episode.

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<v Speaker 1>But that's the take home point. So the center is dead,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's dead because it no longer has access to

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<v Speaker 1>water and nutrients that are come up through the xylum,

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<v Speaker 1>which will get you. So the next level you've got

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<v Speaker 1>is the sapwood, and the sapwood is the level where

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<v Speaker 1>you still get water that's coming up through the xylum.

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<v Speaker 1>So you've got essentially I think of it as like

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<v Speaker 1>a series of tubes, but it's really like specialized cells

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<v Speaker 1>that go from the roots up through the trunk of

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<v Speaker 1>the tree and into the canopy. And so the sapwood

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<v Speaker 1>is getting access to that water and to the nutrients.

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<v Speaker 1>Next to the sapwood is the cambrium, and the cambrium

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<v Speaker 1>maybe the cambrium we all know how good I am

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<v Speaker 1>at pronouncing things is going to be very important for

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<v Speaker 1>the rest of this episode. So this is the layer

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<v Speaker 1>where you have the growth happening. So on one side,

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<v Speaker 1>towards the outside of the tree, the cambrium starts producing bark,

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<v Speaker 1>and that bark is going to build up over time,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's going to protect the tree. Towards the inside

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<v Speaker 1>of the tree, it's producing the sapwood, so it's producing

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<v Speaker 1>more of that like woody tissue that you would build

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<v Speaker 1>a house out of, for example.

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<v Speaker 2>Woody tissue otherwise known as wood. Yeah, well for us folk.

0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:06.640
<v Speaker 1>But wouldn't bark be woody tissue? Kind of Also, I

0:11:06.640 --> 0:11:08.920
<v Speaker 1>don't know, I see, but you wouldn't necessarily build the

0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:10.160
<v Speaker 1>house out of bark. So I was trying to be

0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:11.120
<v Speaker 1>a little more specific.

0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:13.000
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, well, I don't want to blow my nose

0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:14.680
<v Speaker 2>on a woody tissue, So I guess it has lots

0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:15.120
<v Speaker 2>of meanings.

0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:16.080
<v Speaker 1>That's right, that's right.

0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:18.559
<v Speaker 2>Well, before you dig deeper, my first question is, like,

0:11:18.600 --> 0:11:21.720
<v Speaker 2>are these hard divisions is there like an edge between

0:11:21.800 --> 0:11:24.400
<v Speaker 2>the heartwood and the sapwood, or is it like a

0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:26.760
<v Speaker 2>spectrum where like in the middle it's something that's sort

0:11:26.760 --> 0:11:29.440
<v Speaker 2>of hearty sappy, or is it really like a hard

0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:30.520
<v Speaker 2>bright line there.

0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:33.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's a great question. So I'm thinking back at

0:11:33.400 --> 0:11:36.440
<v Speaker 1>the tree cookies as they're called, that I've looked at.

0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:39.400
<v Speaker 1>So this is like you slice through a tree at

0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:41.480
<v Speaker 1>two different parts, and it's sort of shaped in a circle,

0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:44.000
<v Speaker 1>kind of like a cookie. And I feel like often

0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:46.880
<v Speaker 1>it looks like there's a pretty clear delineation between what

0:11:46.920 --> 0:11:48.720
<v Speaker 1>would be the heartwood and what would be the sapwood.

0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:52.560
<v Speaker 1>The heartwood's like a different color, but it probably does

0:11:52.640 --> 0:11:56.160
<v Speaker 1>have like layers that are gradations in the process of dying,

0:11:56.360 --> 0:12:00.240
<v Speaker 1>essentially interesting versus cells that are still being fed, would

0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:01.400
<v Speaker 1>be my guess, right.

0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:03.440
<v Speaker 2>And so the Cambrian is the thing that's making more

0:12:03.480 --> 0:12:07.040
<v Speaker 2>soapwood on the inside and more bark on the outside.

0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:09.160
<v Speaker 2>Is that the only part of the tree that's growing.

0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:11.839
<v Speaker 2>The tree is not like expanding uniformly, sort of like

0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:14.640
<v Speaker 2>the way the universe expands. It's like only making new

0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:16.040
<v Speaker 2>rings around the outside.

0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:19.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's only making new rings around the outside. And

0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:22.560
<v Speaker 1>so say you were to like put a nail into

0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:25.520
<v Speaker 1>the side of a tree, and you came back fifty

0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:28.120
<v Speaker 1>years later, that nail would still be at the same

0:12:28.200 --> 0:12:31.520
<v Speaker 1>height that you had put in, but it would be

0:12:31.800 --> 0:12:34.560
<v Speaker 1>essentially getting like absorbed by the tree, like layers would

0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:36.640
<v Speaker 1>have grown around it, and so either that nail wouldn't

0:12:36.679 --> 0:12:39.600
<v Speaker 1>be visible anymore unless you actually cut into the tree.

0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:41.520
<v Speaker 1>And as someone who lives out in the woods in

0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:43.040
<v Speaker 1>an area where there used to be a lot of

0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:45.880
<v Speaker 1>barbed wire fencing, it's amazing how often we'll cut into

0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:48.960
<v Speaker 1>a tree and the chainsaw blade will get messed up

0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:50.920
<v Speaker 1>because it turned out there was a barbed wire like

0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:52.640
<v Speaker 1>in the middle of the tree and the tree had

0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:55.720
<v Speaker 1>just grown around it. It was like, nice, try humans,

0:12:56.280 --> 0:13:00.000
<v Speaker 1>I grow around you.

0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:02.840
<v Speaker 2>And so if I had like two models of growth

0:13:02.840 --> 0:13:05.080
<v Speaker 2>in my head, one where like every part of the

0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:08.200
<v Speaker 2>tree is expanding, so heartwood is always heartwood just becomes bigger.

0:13:08.679 --> 0:13:12.240
<v Speaker 2>Sounds like you're suggesting a different model where like sapwood

0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:14.880
<v Speaker 2>becomes heartwood. Is that what's happening here?

0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:18.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So sapwood and heartwood are both made out of

0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:21.720
<v Speaker 1>xylum cells, which are the cells where you get water

0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:24.000
<v Speaker 1>and the stuff that's dissolved in the water that goes

0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:26.640
<v Speaker 1>from the ground through the roots and up towards the

0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:30.800
<v Speaker 1>top of the tree. Both sapwood and heartwood are dead.

0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:34.600
<v Speaker 1>Those xylum cells are dead, and as those xylum cells

0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:38.439
<v Speaker 1>get more and more compressed, they become heartwood. So the

0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:41.720
<v Speaker 1>difference between sapwood and heartwood is that the xylum cells

0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:44.360
<v Speaker 1>have been compressed so much that water can't move up

0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:46.600
<v Speaker 1>them anymore, and that happens as you move towards the

0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:51.160
<v Speaker 1>center of the tree. So sapwood becomes heartwood over time.

0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:53.439
<v Speaker 2>And then that heartwood basically never changes right because it's

0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:54.920
<v Speaker 2>dead and now it's just structural.

0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:58.480
<v Speaker 1>So in most trees, that heartwood stays structural and it

0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:00.880
<v Speaker 1>stays there. And so when you bore through the center

0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:03.760
<v Speaker 1>of a tree, you can pull out a plug where

0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:06.080
<v Speaker 1>you can see all of the lines throughout the entire

0:14:06.120 --> 0:14:08.760
<v Speaker 1>life of the tree. But there are some kinds of trees,

0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:12.920
<v Speaker 1>like the Boa bab in Africa, where the inside is

0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:16.200
<v Speaker 1>sort of not the same consistency of wood that most

0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:17.920
<v Speaker 1>of us think of, and it tends to sort of

0:14:17.960 --> 0:14:20.760
<v Speaker 1>decay and rode away, and so you can't use increment

0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:22.800
<v Speaker 1>bars for a lot of those trees because the inside

0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:23.840
<v Speaker 1>is no longer there.

0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:27.280
<v Speaker 2>But for most trees, basically the living part of it

0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:29.960
<v Speaker 2>is like a hollow cylinder's more like a tube than

0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:33.080
<v Speaker 2>like a filled in cylinder. And that's expanding and leaving

0:14:33.120 --> 0:14:34.880
<v Speaker 2>behind its corpses.

0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:36.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, isn't that crazy?

0:14:37.120 --> 0:14:40.280
<v Speaker 2>That is crazy, totally nuts. It's like the opposite of

0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:42.320
<v Speaker 2>a snake. A snake like sheds its skin, but the

0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:44.960
<v Speaker 2>living part is on the inside. This is like if

0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:46.400
<v Speaker 2>the skin was the living part.

0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:47.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:48.640
<v Speaker 2>Wow, trees are weird.

0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:52.480
<v Speaker 1>Yes, trees are so weird. Okay, but so why does

0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:57.080
<v Speaker 1>that growth leave behind rings instead of just like a

0:14:57.120 --> 0:14:58.359
<v Speaker 1>homogeneous center.

0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:00.520
<v Speaker 2>Or why is it linked to the year instead of

0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:01.120
<v Speaker 2>something else?

0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:01.400
<v Speaker 3>Right?

0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:04.640
<v Speaker 2>What's going on every year that makes this mark inside

0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:05.120
<v Speaker 2>the tree?

0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:09.240
<v Speaker 1>Right? So you get rings in areas where there's clear

0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:12.320
<v Speaker 1>seasonal differences, and that could be winter summer, but it

0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:15.240
<v Speaker 1>could also be wet season and dry season. So not

0:15:15.400 --> 0:15:18.680
<v Speaker 1>all trees have rings, and in particular, these rings are

0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:21.640
<v Speaker 1>either like much fainter or maybe even impossible to see.

0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:25.000
<v Speaker 1>And areas where conditions are more homogeneous or more similar

0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:28.280
<v Speaker 1>all year long, like a born place like California probably,

0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:29.960
<v Speaker 1>But anyways.

0:15:29.600 --> 0:15:33.360
<v Speaker 2>If by boring you mean consistently wonderful, then yes, all.

0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:36.280
<v Speaker 1>Right, fine, Okay. So at the beginning of a season,

0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:40.120
<v Speaker 1>the wood is a little bit lighter, and it is

0:15:40.560 --> 0:15:44.840
<v Speaker 1>more aimed at being able to transport nutrients and water

0:15:44.920 --> 0:15:47.560
<v Speaker 1>up and down during the massive growth that starts at

0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:49.840
<v Speaker 1>the beginning of the spring. And so that kind of

0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:54.000
<v Speaker 1>wood is called early wood, because apparently these folks are

0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:56.400
<v Speaker 1>just as clever at naming things as the people who

0:15:56.520 --> 0:16:00.680
<v Speaker 1>named the rings of Jupiter. If was that Jupiter or

0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:05.000
<v Speaker 1>Saturn where the rings are abc.

0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:07.160
<v Speaker 2>That's definitely Saturn, probably a Jupiter, though I haven't looked

0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:07.440
<v Speaker 2>that up.

0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:10.440
<v Speaker 1>Okay. And then after the earlywood, you get do you

0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:11.480
<v Speaker 1>want to go ahead and guess.

0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:13.520
<v Speaker 2>Daniel, I'm gonna guess latewood.

0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:16.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yep, you get lightwood. And lightwood I think is

0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:19.720
<v Speaker 1>more about structure, and so it tends to be tighter

0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:20.600
<v Speaker 1>and closer together.

0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:23.480
<v Speaker 2>I see. So the kind of new wood that's grown

0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:27.360
<v Speaker 2>depends on the conditions on the ground, and that changes

0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:29.160
<v Speaker 2>through the year, and that changes the kind of wood

0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:29.760
<v Speaker 2>that it's grown.

0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:32.600
<v Speaker 1>Yep. So every year you get this pattern of like

0:16:32.760 --> 0:16:35.600
<v Speaker 1>light than dark, and those are the rings that you see.

0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:39.200
<v Speaker 2>And I think, say again, why the latewood is darker

0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:40.000
<v Speaker 2>than the early wood.

0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:42.040
<v Speaker 1>My understanding is that the late wood is meant to

0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:44.360
<v Speaker 1>be more about structure, so it doesn't need to be

0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:47.720
<v Speaker 1>so loose, so that water can go up to feed

0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:50.480
<v Speaker 1>the many leaves that are growing at the beginning of

0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:52.720
<v Speaker 1>the season. When you're at the point where you've got

0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:54.600
<v Speaker 1>all your leaves, or maybe even the leaves are starting

0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:57.960
<v Speaker 1>to come down, the new growth is mostly just about structure,

0:16:57.960 --> 0:16:59.760
<v Speaker 1>and so it's a different kind of cell that looks

0:16:59.760 --> 0:17:00.680
<v Speaker 1>a little bit different.

0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:02.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you make it sound like it's intentional, like the

0:17:02.840 --> 0:17:04.760
<v Speaker 2>tree got together and it's like, all right, I think

0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:08.199
<v Speaker 2>we're ready for some structure. In reality, of course, is

0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:10.320
<v Speaker 2>just sort of what has worked right and we're reverse

0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:11.000
<v Speaker 2>engineering it.

0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:14.399
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. It also is responding to the environment and so

0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:18.680
<v Speaker 1>on very wet years or years with really good growth conditions,

0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:22.520
<v Speaker 1>the distance between rings is much bigger because the Cambrian

0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:25.199
<v Speaker 1>was able to put in more rows of cells, and

0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:28.280
<v Speaker 1>so you get a greater distance, whereas in years where

0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:30.719
<v Speaker 1>there's droughts or conditions are bad for some other reasons,

0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:32.600
<v Speaker 1>the distance between the rings are much smaller.

0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:34.720
<v Speaker 2>And do you always get a ring, Like what about

0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:37.320
<v Speaker 2>the year without a summer, or when there's like a

0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:40.000
<v Speaker 2>volcanic eruption and we just don't see the sun. Can

0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:42.080
<v Speaker 2>you trick trees into thinking a year hasn't passed?

0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:44.040
<v Speaker 1>So I don't know the answer to that. I have

0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:49.040
<v Speaker 1>aged fish based on their scales, so I have some

0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:54.240
<v Speaker 1>knowledge of how the environment impacts aging dynamics, and there

0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:56.600
<v Speaker 1>are definitely some years where it's very hard to tell

0:17:56.600 --> 0:17:58.760
<v Speaker 1>the difference between the rings, or to tell if there

0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:01.040
<v Speaker 1>is a ring in this particular place or not. I'm

0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:03.840
<v Speaker 1>guessing the same thing happens with trees. I would also

0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:05.520
<v Speaker 1>guess that when you age a tree and you say

0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:08.080
<v Speaker 1>it's four thousand, five hundred and eighty seven years, you

0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:10.680
<v Speaker 1>really mean like four five hundred and eighty seven plus

0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:14.280
<v Speaker 1>or minus thirty or something like that. Oh sure, yeah,

0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:17.760
<v Speaker 1>But you can use this tool called an increment borer

0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:20.720
<v Speaker 1>to go through the center of a tree and pull

0:18:20.760 --> 0:18:23.840
<v Speaker 1>out a tiny little pencil shaped chunk where you can

0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:26.679
<v Speaker 1>go through, and you can age it by counting the rings.

0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:29.480
<v Speaker 1>But you don't need to kill the tree. It can

0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:31.840
<v Speaker 1>just handle this little bit of damage. It's like drawing

0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:33.960
<v Speaker 1>blood from a human or something. And if you get

0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:38.520
<v Speaker 1>enough of these, you can actually look at climate patterns

0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:41.720
<v Speaker 1>in a region over time, and so trees give us

0:18:41.720 --> 0:18:44.040
<v Speaker 1>a little bit of window into the past. One tree

0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:46.840
<v Speaker 1>doesn't really do it, because it could be like one

0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:49.560
<v Speaker 1>year it was underneath a bigger tree and so it

0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:51.600
<v Speaker 1>got shaded out so it didn't grow as much. And

0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:54.040
<v Speaker 1>then if that tree dies, you know, the next year

0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:56.600
<v Speaker 1>its growth is bigger. And so there's some other stuff

0:18:56.600 --> 0:18:58.199
<v Speaker 1>to pay attention to as well. But we could look

0:18:58.240 --> 0:19:00.639
<v Speaker 1>at climactic patterns by using these tree rings.

0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:04.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I remember reading that they use old trees for

0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:08.920
<v Speaker 2>things like understanding the atmospheric carbon content and all sorts

0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:11.520
<v Speaker 2>of stuff. It's like an incredible record of what's happened

0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:15.320
<v Speaker 2>on Earth because it's so sensitive. It's so lucky that

0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:17.280
<v Speaker 2>it works this way. I mean, I can imagine lots

0:19:17.280 --> 0:19:20.280
<v Speaker 2>of other ways trees could have evolved that they didn't

0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:22.080
<v Speaker 2>respond in this cyclical way.

0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:24.800
<v Speaker 1>I know. And also for managing fish populations. It's amazing

0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:27.600
<v Speaker 1>that scales tell you how old they are. We really

0:19:27.680 --> 0:19:29.320
<v Speaker 1>lucked out that nature works in this way.

0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:33.600
<v Speaker 2>Nature is a good record keeper, right, They're hints all

0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:36.240
<v Speaker 2>over the world about what happened on this planet. We

0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:38.840
<v Speaker 2>just have to be good detectives and like figure out

0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:41.320
<v Speaker 2>how to read them. And one thing I love about

0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:44.080
<v Speaker 2>science is all this work that people have done, you know,

0:19:44.160 --> 0:19:47.280
<v Speaker 2>this like Yeoman work to figure out, like how we

0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:50.359
<v Speaker 2>can use some part of nature to reveal secrets of

0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:53.000
<v Speaker 2>the universe. Right, you don't just sit around and like

0:19:53.240 --> 0:19:55.240
<v Speaker 2>let the universe download it into your brain. You've got

0:19:55.240 --> 0:19:56.600
<v Speaker 2>to go out there and do the work and figure

0:19:56.600 --> 0:19:58.800
<v Speaker 2>out like, oh, we can use this weird rock and oh,

0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:00.760
<v Speaker 2>terms out trees do this weird thing, or fish do

0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:04.040
<v Speaker 2>this weird thing. Like there's so much of experimental science

0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:07.119
<v Speaker 2>that's people's realizing they could take advantage of a quirk

0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:07.679
<v Speaker 2>of nature.

0:20:08.040 --> 0:20:09.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and then there's so many things you can do

0:20:10.000 --> 0:20:11.359
<v Speaker 1>with it. It's like one of the favorite things that

0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:15.439
<v Speaker 1>came across was that archaeologists are using tree rings to

0:20:15.520 --> 0:20:18.960
<v Speaker 1>try to date structures. So if you find, for example,

0:20:19.000 --> 0:20:22.320
<v Speaker 1>a beam in an old house and you assume that

0:20:22.359 --> 0:20:24.560
<v Speaker 1>it was cut down to build the house, then you

0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:26.560
<v Speaker 1>can look at other tree cores in the area and

0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:29.359
<v Speaker 1>sort of match up the fast growth years with the

0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:32.119
<v Speaker 1>slow growth years, and then you can back date to

0:20:32.160 --> 0:20:34.520
<v Speaker 1>figure out when that structure was built, even if you

0:20:34.520 --> 0:20:37.320
<v Speaker 1>don't have that record anywhere. It's so amazing. The more

0:20:37.359 --> 0:20:39.640
<v Speaker 1>you understand about the world, you get all of these

0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:42.360
<v Speaker 1>surprising linkages that you can use to learn even more.

0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:45.480
<v Speaker 1>It's super cool. It's incredible, Okay, But to get back

0:20:45.480 --> 0:20:48.760
<v Speaker 1>to carbon fourteen dating, it turns out that carbon fourteen

0:20:48.840 --> 0:20:51.320
<v Speaker 1>dating is also a method that we use to date

0:20:51.600 --> 0:20:53.199
<v Speaker 1>some of the trees that we come across. So we

0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:58.240
<v Speaker 1>already talked about the baobab, which sometimes rots in the inside,

0:20:58.240 --> 0:21:01.040
<v Speaker 1>and so you can't use an inc bor to like

0:21:01.359 --> 0:21:03.600
<v Speaker 1>get a little sample of the tree to age it

0:21:03.640 --> 0:21:05.840
<v Speaker 1>because it doesn't really have a center. But you can

0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:09.439
<v Speaker 1>use carbon fourteen dating and pull the innermost wood that

0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:11.600
<v Speaker 1>you can find to get an estimate for how old

0:21:11.680 --> 0:21:14.240
<v Speaker 1>the tree is. So these are the various methods that

0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:15.359
<v Speaker 1>we use to age trees.

0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:19.439
<v Speaker 2>So, like some of the interior records essentially have been destroyed,

0:21:19.440 --> 0:21:20.760
<v Speaker 2>but you still have a few and so you can

0:21:20.800 --> 0:21:23.240
<v Speaker 2>say the tree is at least eleven hundred years old

0:21:23.280 --> 0:21:25.240
<v Speaker 2>or at least seventy five years old or whatever, but

0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:27.040
<v Speaker 2>you don't know what you're missing.

0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:28.800
<v Speaker 1>Yep, that's exactly right.

0:21:29.320 --> 0:21:32.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, fascinating. Well, it's incredible to me how long these

0:21:32.520 --> 0:21:34.600
<v Speaker 2>trees live. And you know, trees to me are just

0:21:34.720 --> 0:21:37.320
<v Speaker 2>stunning creatures, you know, Like if we didn't have trees,

0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:39.040
<v Speaker 2>or if I'd never seen a tree and you describe

0:21:39.040 --> 0:21:41.199
<v Speaker 2>them to me, like, hey, there are these things that

0:21:41.240 --> 0:21:44.719
<v Speaker 2>build themselves out of air over time, drinking sunlight and

0:21:44.760 --> 0:21:48.399
<v Speaker 2>reproduce themselves and provide oxygen. I'd be like, that's some

0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:51.040
<v Speaker 2>crazy science fiction nonsense. But they're real.

0:21:51.480 --> 0:21:54.800
<v Speaker 1>It's amazing, and they're beautiful and we can use them

0:21:54.840 --> 0:21:56.080
<v Speaker 1>to build our homes.

0:21:57.280 --> 0:21:59.120
<v Speaker 2>All right, Well, I want to hear all about the

0:21:59.160 --> 0:22:03.080
<v Speaker 2>world herd holders for oldest trees in the world, but

0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:22.680
<v Speaker 2>first we have to take a quick break. Okay, we're

0:22:22.680 --> 0:22:26.160
<v Speaker 2>back and we're talking about the weird, the amazing, the beautiful,

0:22:26.240 --> 0:22:30.800
<v Speaker 2>the fantastical, the California and the Virginian, the worldwide tree.

0:22:31.160 --> 0:22:34.000
<v Speaker 2>It's everywhere, and it provides us with oxygen and teaches

0:22:34.080 --> 0:22:36.840
<v Speaker 2>us about the history of our own planet. So Kelly,

0:22:36.880 --> 0:22:40.280
<v Speaker 2>tell us, where are the oldest trees in the world

0:22:40.440 --> 0:22:41.679
<v Speaker 2>and are they in California?

0:22:42.520 --> 0:22:46.120
<v Speaker 1>Maybe they're in California. There are a couple other contenders

0:22:46.320 --> 0:22:49.639
<v Speaker 1>for oldest tree in the world, but at the moment,

0:22:49.680 --> 0:22:52.960
<v Speaker 1>I think the most widely accepted oldest tree in the

0:22:53.000 --> 0:22:55.600
<v Speaker 1>world is Methuselah, which we talked about in the intro,

0:22:56.080 --> 0:22:59.120
<v Speaker 1>somewhere between forty five hundred and five thousand years old.

0:22:59.359 --> 0:23:01.880
<v Speaker 1>The coordinate are not public because they don't want people

0:23:01.920 --> 0:23:03.960
<v Speaker 1>to go and like carve their names into the side

0:23:03.960 --> 0:23:06.359
<v Speaker 1>of it, because humans do stuff like that. Guys, do

0:23:06.400 --> 0:23:06.720
<v Speaker 1>we just.

0:23:06.760 --> 0:23:08.840
<v Speaker 2>Hold on for a moment, like back up, Like, wow,

0:23:09.200 --> 0:23:12.600
<v Speaker 2>five thousand years old? What was happening on Earth five

0:23:12.640 --> 0:23:15.080
<v Speaker 2>thousand years ago? So this tree is like older than

0:23:15.119 --> 0:23:16.000
<v Speaker 2>the Great Pyramids.

0:23:16.480 --> 0:23:19.240
<v Speaker 1>This tree put down its roots during the age of

0:23:19.280 --> 0:23:21.240
<v Speaker 1>the Pyramids. I think this is the Old Kingdom.

0:23:21.680 --> 0:23:21.920
<v Speaker 2>Wow.

0:23:21.960 --> 0:23:24.879
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, incredible. So it saw the fall of ancient Egypt,

0:23:24.880 --> 0:23:27.240
<v Speaker 1>the rise and fall of ancient Rome, and ancient Greece.

0:23:27.280 --> 0:23:31.160
<v Speaker 1>Like we said in the intro, so many generations of humans.

0:23:32.119 --> 0:23:35.640
<v Speaker 1>It's wind boggling. I'm not very eloquent. I can't capture

0:23:35.680 --> 0:23:37.919
<v Speaker 1>this adequately. It's just incredible.

0:23:39.560 --> 0:23:42.040
<v Speaker 2>It really just gives you a sense for the tiny

0:23:42.119 --> 0:23:44.919
<v Speaker 2>blip of time that we exist on this planet. And

0:23:44.960 --> 0:23:47.119
<v Speaker 2>of course even that by five thousand years is a

0:23:47.200 --> 0:23:50.000
<v Speaker 2>tiny blip of time for the planet. That's the thing

0:23:50.040 --> 0:23:51.840
<v Speaker 2>that these old trees do for me. They give me

0:23:51.880 --> 0:23:55.439
<v Speaker 2>this like tiniest taste of the deepness of time, the

0:23:55.480 --> 0:23:59.280
<v Speaker 2>incredible vastness of time in the universe more broadly, and

0:23:59.320 --> 0:24:02.119
<v Speaker 2>then of course on Earth. So do you think that

0:24:02.200 --> 0:24:05.439
<v Speaker 2>these trees are going to see, you know, the fall

0:24:05.600 --> 0:24:09.600
<v Speaker 2>of our current civilization? How long new bristle cone pines live? So?

0:24:09.680 --> 0:24:12.199
<v Speaker 1>I think the bristle cone pines that are five thousand

0:24:12.280 --> 0:24:20.879
<v Speaker 1>years old are not looking young. But I do think

0:24:20.960 --> 0:24:23.760
<v Speaker 1>that there are some clonal organisms that we'll talk about later,

0:24:23.840 --> 0:24:25.840
<v Speaker 1>like those stands of quaking aspens that can live for

0:24:25.880 --> 0:24:30.000
<v Speaker 1>over ten thousand years. And I hope that we live

0:24:30.119 --> 0:24:33.240
<v Speaker 1>longer than the quaking aspen stands that are alive today.

0:24:33.720 --> 0:24:37.639
<v Speaker 1>We as a species, not me personally, but I don't know.

0:24:37.720 --> 0:24:38.920
<v Speaker 1>We'll have to wait and see. What do you think?

0:24:38.920 --> 0:24:40.399
<v Speaker 1>Are we an imminent declined Daniel?

0:24:41.400 --> 0:24:43.800
<v Speaker 2>All that remains to be seen. I was mostly asking

0:24:43.920 --> 0:24:46.359
<v Speaker 2>about the lifetime of these trees. Oh, if you find

0:24:46.359 --> 0:24:49.280
<v Speaker 2>a population of trees and the oldest ones are about

0:24:49.320 --> 0:24:52.760
<v Speaker 2>five thousand years old, that means either they evolved five

0:24:52.760 --> 0:24:54.240
<v Speaker 2>thousand years ago and they're going to live a long

0:24:54.280 --> 0:24:57.800
<v Speaker 2>long time, or that's roughly as long as they can.

0:24:57.960 --> 0:25:01.240
<v Speaker 2>Like have bristle cone pines been living for five thousand

0:25:01.280 --> 0:25:03.760
<v Speaker 2>issh years for millions of years, And this is just

0:25:03.760 --> 0:25:06.320
<v Speaker 2>sort of like how long they typically live and we're

0:25:06.400 --> 0:25:08.800
<v Speaker 2>visiting the old folks Home for bristle cone pine.

0:25:09.480 --> 0:25:13.199
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, and I don't think that most people know.

0:25:14.320 --> 0:25:16.000
<v Speaker 1>What would you have to know in order to answer

0:25:16.040 --> 0:25:18.560
<v Speaker 1>that question? I guess you would have to find dead

0:25:18.600 --> 0:25:22.399
<v Speaker 1>bristle cone pines. You could age when they died and

0:25:22.440 --> 0:25:25.000
<v Speaker 1>determined that they had been alive for five thousand years.

0:25:25.640 --> 0:25:29.000
<v Speaker 1>I suppose in these dry environments that kind of petrified

0:25:29.040 --> 0:25:31.680
<v Speaker 1>would could exist, but I don't know if it does exist.

0:25:32.920 --> 0:25:34.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, we can tell when the tree dies, right

0:25:34.960 --> 0:25:38.320
<v Speaker 2>because of carbon fourteen dating, and you could count its rings,

0:25:38.320 --> 0:25:40.119
<v Speaker 2>So in principle it should be possible to know.

0:25:40.440 --> 0:25:42.199
<v Speaker 1>You could count its rings if it didn't. Like so,

0:25:42.240 --> 0:25:44.200
<v Speaker 1>most of the trees on my property eventually they rode

0:25:44.240 --> 0:25:46.520
<v Speaker 1>away and decay. You can't find them anymore. But if

0:25:46.520 --> 0:25:49.199
<v Speaker 1>it petrified and you could find it, I don't know

0:25:49.240 --> 0:25:51.720
<v Speaker 1>the answer, But my guess would be that they have

0:25:51.840 --> 0:25:53.639
<v Speaker 1>been living for a very long time. But if you

0:25:53.680 --> 0:25:55.960
<v Speaker 1>go out to a long enough time period, you have

0:25:56.000 --> 0:25:58.959
<v Speaker 1>to start thinking about things like, well, where were they

0:25:59.000 --> 0:26:01.000
<v Speaker 1>when the last glacial event happened.

0:26:01.359 --> 0:26:02.600
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, And it.

0:26:02.560 --> 0:26:05.760
<v Speaker 1>Turns out that bristle cone pines tended to be up

0:26:05.800 --> 0:26:07.880
<v Speaker 1>in the mountains, high enough and out of the way

0:26:08.000 --> 0:26:11.280
<v Speaker 1>enough that they weren't bothered by the last glacial event.

0:26:11.640 --> 0:26:13.680
<v Speaker 1>But it could be that there are trees out there

0:26:14.040 --> 0:26:16.120
<v Speaker 1>that would live for a very long time, but they

0:26:16.160 --> 0:26:19.280
<v Speaker 1>happened to be in habitats where when the last glacier

0:26:19.280 --> 0:26:21.760
<v Speaker 1>came through, it knocked them all out because they can't

0:26:21.800 --> 0:26:24.480
<v Speaker 1>run away like we can. That's one of the downsides

0:26:24.480 --> 0:26:25.680
<v Speaker 1>of being a tree.

0:26:25.560 --> 0:26:27.760
<v Speaker 2>Right, That's amazing. These guys live so long. You have

0:26:27.800 --> 0:26:30.880
<v Speaker 2>to think about the changing conditions of the earth when

0:26:30.880 --> 0:26:33.920
<v Speaker 2>they were babies or when they were growing up. That's incredible,

0:26:34.040 --> 0:26:37.040
<v Speaker 2>it is, all right, So Methuselah is maybe a contender

0:26:37.080 --> 0:26:40.000
<v Speaker 2>for one of the oldest trees on Earth. What else

0:26:40.000 --> 0:26:42.400
<v Speaker 2>do we find in the old folks home for trees.

0:26:42.760 --> 0:26:46.639
<v Speaker 1>Well, so there was a tree called Prometheus that was

0:26:46.680 --> 0:26:49.639
<v Speaker 1>also a bristle cone pine. But usually the contenders have

0:26:49.720 --> 0:26:53.160
<v Speaker 1>to be trees that are still alive. But unfortunately Prometheus

0:26:53.240 --> 0:26:56.080
<v Speaker 1>was cut down in its five thousand year prime.

0:26:56.520 --> 0:26:58.520
<v Speaker 2>Oh no, was it by some terrible tourist.

0:26:58.760 --> 0:27:01.600
<v Speaker 1>No, it was by I think a grad student, so

0:27:01.760 --> 0:27:05.280
<v Speaker 1>I know, okay, So there was this misconception that old

0:27:05.359 --> 0:27:08.520
<v Speaker 1>trees were probably the biggest trees, and that makes sense,

0:27:08.560 --> 0:27:10.360
<v Speaker 1>you know, you look at the redwoods and you're like, oh,

0:27:10.440 --> 0:27:13.520
<v Speaker 1>you might be so old. But actually there's this trend

0:27:13.960 --> 0:27:18.040
<v Speaker 1>where the older trees within a species tend to be

0:27:18.080 --> 0:27:21.200
<v Speaker 1>the smaller ones that started their lives growing more slowly

0:27:21.560 --> 0:27:24.200
<v Speaker 1>and maybe even over time didn't get to be as big.

0:27:24.560 --> 0:27:26.639
<v Speaker 1>They're just sort of like tiny and stodgy, and I

0:27:26.680 --> 0:27:30.320
<v Speaker 1>love it. And so I think this student didn't realize

0:27:30.640 --> 0:27:32.959
<v Speaker 1>that they were dealing with what might be the oldest

0:27:33.000 --> 0:27:35.000
<v Speaker 1>tree on the planet, and so they were trying to

0:27:35.040 --> 0:27:37.560
<v Speaker 1>get the age. The exact details of the story have

0:27:37.640 --> 0:27:39.720
<v Speaker 1>been sort of lost to history, but a version of

0:27:39.760 --> 0:27:42.040
<v Speaker 1>the story is that the student was trying to get

0:27:42.040 --> 0:27:44.280
<v Speaker 1>the age using an increment bor, so this thing where

0:27:44.320 --> 0:27:46.800
<v Speaker 1>you hand crank it into the tree, and that just

0:27:46.880 --> 0:27:50.119
<v Speaker 1>wasn't working out, and so they actually did get permission

0:27:50.160 --> 0:27:53.120
<v Speaker 1>from the park Service to cut the tree down. Oh no,

0:27:53.400 --> 0:27:56.080
<v Speaker 1>and then when they cut the tree down, it just

0:27:56.119 --> 0:27:58.840
<v Speaker 1>turned out that it was five thousand years old. Oh

0:27:58.960 --> 0:28:00.680
<v Speaker 1>my god, maybe the oldest tree ever.

0:28:00.920 --> 0:28:02.240
<v Speaker 2>That must have been heartbreaking.

0:28:03.040 --> 0:28:06.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I think that student did report later that they

0:28:06.560 --> 0:28:08.760
<v Speaker 1>regretted for the rest of their life that they cut

0:28:08.800 --> 0:28:09.480
<v Speaker 1>that tree down.

0:28:10.840 --> 0:28:14.800
<v Speaker 2>Imagine surviving for five thousand years. And then some grad

0:28:14.840 --> 0:28:17.400
<v Speaker 2>students like, oh.

0:28:17.200 --> 0:28:20.120
<v Speaker 1>Man, yeah, the glaciers didn't get you, but the grad

0:28:20.160 --> 0:28:20.840
<v Speaker 1>student did.

0:28:23.119 --> 0:28:25.200
<v Speaker 2>Academia comes for us all eventually.

0:28:25.520 --> 0:28:29.119
<v Speaker 1>Oh man, yep, it gets us. So anyway, tragic story.

0:28:29.200 --> 0:28:33.399
<v Speaker 1>So there's also a tree in Chile, the Alersie Tree,

0:28:33.440 --> 0:28:37.080
<v Speaker 1>and again sorry my apologies of mispronouncing it, but there

0:28:37.240 --> 0:28:42.320
<v Speaker 1>is a tree in Alerseay Castero National Park that is

0:28:42.640 --> 0:28:45.720
<v Speaker 1>eighty percent likely to be over five thousand years old.

0:28:45.800 --> 0:28:48.560
<v Speaker 1>It's estimated to be five four hundred and eighty four

0:28:48.680 --> 0:28:51.200
<v Speaker 1>years old, and so that tree could win.

0:28:51.840 --> 0:28:54.400
<v Speaker 2>Where do you think that eighty percent uncertainty comes from?

0:28:54.920 --> 0:28:57.360
<v Speaker 2>Is that from like the rings being fuzzy or what

0:28:57.360 --> 0:28:59.240
<v Speaker 2>we were talking about earlier, like not every ring is

0:28:59.240 --> 0:29:00.000
<v Speaker 2>present or visible.

0:29:00.480 --> 0:29:03.080
<v Speaker 1>The rings being fuzzy, I think is a problem. Another

0:29:03.160 --> 0:29:07.840
<v Speaker 1>problem is that sometimes where you go through the tree

0:29:08.360 --> 0:29:11.360
<v Speaker 1>can influence how many rings you see, and so people

0:29:11.440 --> 0:29:14.160
<v Speaker 1>tend to do the boring, like you know, to get

0:29:14.200 --> 0:29:16.760
<v Speaker 1>your sample at about like chest height. But I think

0:29:16.800 --> 0:29:18.960
<v Speaker 1>if you go down even lower. Sometimes you can get

0:29:19.000 --> 0:29:22.920
<v Speaker 1>some additional rings. It's just complicated. No answer is ever

0:29:22.960 --> 0:29:24.080
<v Speaker 1>as clear as you want it to be.

0:29:25.120 --> 0:29:28.240
<v Speaker 2>In science, well, I appreciate that there's uncertainties, you know.

0:29:28.480 --> 0:29:31.680
<v Speaker 2>I've seen talks in biology where you see like data

0:29:31.720 --> 0:29:34.240
<v Speaker 2>plotted with no uncertainties and like a line drawn through

0:29:34.240 --> 0:29:36.320
<v Speaker 2>in it, and you're like, what are we doing here, folks?

0:29:36.720 --> 0:29:40.000
<v Speaker 2>So I'm always very impressed when I see biology with air.

0:29:40.000 --> 0:29:43.320
<v Speaker 1>Bars so used to you, hey man, A lot of

0:29:43.400 --> 0:29:47.000
<v Speaker 1>us understand error bars and confidence intervals and would never

0:29:47.040 --> 0:29:48.360
<v Speaker 1>publish a paper without them.

0:29:49.880 --> 0:29:50.960
<v Speaker 2>I'm still glad to hear it.

0:29:51.120 --> 0:29:54.240
<v Speaker 1>M all right. Anyway, we had talked about that tree,

0:29:54.280 --> 0:29:57.720
<v Speaker 1>the African baobab, where the inside sometimes hrats out, but

0:29:57.800 --> 0:30:00.960
<v Speaker 1>with carbon fourteen dating and then attemp at aging the

0:30:01.000 --> 0:30:03.840
<v Speaker 1>trees using the rings for the trees where that works,

0:30:04.240 --> 0:30:05.680
<v Speaker 1>we think that they can live to be as old

0:30:05.720 --> 0:30:07.200
<v Speaker 1>as two thousand, five hundred years.

0:30:07.680 --> 0:30:08.200
<v Speaker 2>Wow.

0:30:08.240 --> 0:30:11.640
<v Speaker 1>There's about twenty five species of trees that we know

0:30:11.720 --> 0:30:13.960
<v Speaker 1>of that we think can live to be a thousand

0:30:14.040 --> 0:30:18.160
<v Speaker 1>years old or older. But it's important to note that

0:30:18.360 --> 0:30:21.440
<v Speaker 1>not all trees live to be super old. Like right now,

0:30:21.520 --> 0:30:23.880
<v Speaker 1>it's spring in Virginia, so it's more beautiful here than

0:30:23.880 --> 0:30:26.840
<v Speaker 1>anywhere else. And the dogwoods are going to be blooming

0:30:26.880 --> 0:30:30.880
<v Speaker 1>pretty soon. And dogwoods live to be like twenty or

0:30:30.960 --> 0:30:33.040
<v Speaker 1>thirty years. They can live to be as much as

0:30:33.080 --> 0:30:34.600
<v Speaker 1>like eighty years, I think, but like a lot of

0:30:34.600 --> 0:30:36.560
<v Speaker 1>them only live to be twenty or thirty years, So

0:30:36.600 --> 0:30:40.320
<v Speaker 1>it's not the case that all trees do outlive humans.

0:30:40.680 --> 0:30:43.560
<v Speaker 2>Well what about the famous redwoods. These are old trees also,

0:30:43.600 --> 0:30:46.600
<v Speaker 2>but they're not in like the top ten oldest trees.

0:30:46.640 --> 0:30:48.480
<v Speaker 2>But there must be hundreds of years old.

0:30:48.360 --> 0:30:53.000
<v Speaker 1>Right, Yeah, so redwoods and giant sequoias are amongst the

0:30:53.080 --> 0:30:55.640
<v Speaker 1>species of trees that can live to be over a

0:30:55.680 --> 0:30:58.720
<v Speaker 1>thousand years old, So they're found amongst those twenty five

0:30:58.920 --> 0:31:02.800
<v Speaker 1>ish species we know of, But I don't know that

0:31:02.840 --> 0:31:06.440
<v Speaker 1>there are any redwoods that are contenders for the oldest tree.

0:31:06.640 --> 0:31:09.600
<v Speaker 2>Hmm, all right, So then why is there such a

0:31:09.680 --> 0:31:13.520
<v Speaker 2>huge range. Dogwoods live happily for just a couple of decades,

0:31:13.640 --> 0:31:17.320
<v Speaker 2>bristle cone pines scratch out a thorny existence for thousands

0:31:17.320 --> 0:31:22.400
<v Speaker 2>of years. Redwoods become enormous over about a millennium. Why

0:31:22.480 --> 0:31:24.920
<v Speaker 2>do these things live such an incredible range?

0:31:25.440 --> 0:31:28.560
<v Speaker 1>So this is ecology m M. So what do you

0:31:28.600 --> 0:31:28.880
<v Speaker 1>think the.

0:31:28.880 --> 0:31:30.680
<v Speaker 2>Answer is, we don't know.

0:31:30.960 --> 0:31:34.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we don't know. Yeah, both of those work. So

0:31:34.280 --> 0:31:36.760
<v Speaker 1>the papers that I read, it seems like, so, you know,

0:31:36.800 --> 0:31:39.360
<v Speaker 1>there are those twenty five species that I mentioned, Yeah,

0:31:39.400 --> 0:31:42.560
<v Speaker 1>in many cases they are not closely related tree species,

0:31:42.600 --> 0:31:44.720
<v Speaker 1>or they're not super closely related, And it seems like

0:31:44.720 --> 0:31:47.120
<v Speaker 1>we have a different answer for a lot of those

0:31:47.160 --> 0:31:49.640
<v Speaker 1>different species. So, for example, part of why we think

0:31:49.680 --> 0:31:52.360
<v Speaker 1>the bristle cone pines have lived so long is that

0:31:52.400 --> 0:31:55.440
<v Speaker 1>they manage to eke out in existence in an environment

0:31:55.480 --> 0:31:58.800
<v Speaker 1>that is very dry and is up at the top

0:31:58.800 --> 0:32:01.840
<v Speaker 1>of a mountain, and it's not a nice environment for

0:32:02.000 --> 0:32:06.840
<v Speaker 1>other competitors or for pests, and when they escape from

0:32:06.880 --> 0:32:10.000
<v Speaker 1>these competitors, in these pests, they can just focus on

0:32:10.120 --> 0:32:12.160
<v Speaker 1>slow growth and they can live for a really long

0:32:12.200 --> 0:32:14.640
<v Speaker 1>time because they don't have to worry about these other competitors.

0:32:15.160 --> 0:32:18.680
<v Speaker 1>But then you get the redwoods in these moist environments

0:32:18.720 --> 0:32:21.040
<v Speaker 1>with lots of competitors and lots of pests, and they

0:32:21.080 --> 0:32:22.880
<v Speaker 1>do manage to live for a long time. And so

0:32:22.920 --> 0:32:25.680
<v Speaker 1>it seems like you'd need a whole different explanation to

0:32:25.720 --> 0:32:28.200
<v Speaker 1>figure out why redwoods are able to live for so long.

0:32:28.480 --> 0:32:30.240
<v Speaker 2>It seems to be sort of connected to the question

0:32:30.360 --> 0:32:33.160
<v Speaker 2>we talked to Katie about, you know, our strategists and

0:32:33.200 --> 0:32:36.600
<v Speaker 2>case strategists like, from a species point of view, it

0:32:36.640 --> 0:32:39.280
<v Speaker 2>doesn't really matter if you live a long time. Another

0:32:39.320 --> 0:32:42.040
<v Speaker 2>totally valid strategies to just like have a kid every

0:32:42.040 --> 0:32:44.680
<v Speaker 2>thirty years and then die off and make room for

0:32:44.720 --> 0:32:48.080
<v Speaker 2>your kids, right Like, they're definitely different strategies from an

0:32:48.080 --> 0:32:50.640
<v Speaker 2>evolutionary point of view that could work to propagate you

0:32:50.720 --> 0:32:52.600
<v Speaker 2>species down through history.

0:32:52.360 --> 0:32:56.560
<v Speaker 1>Right, yeah, exactly. And additionally, our data set is complicated

0:32:56.560 --> 0:32:59.000
<v Speaker 1>by things like what we've talked about already, which is,

0:32:59.440 --> 0:33:01.760
<v Speaker 1>you know, during the last period when the glaciers came through,

0:33:01.800 --> 0:33:03.880
<v Speaker 1>maybe there were a bunch more species that would have

0:33:03.880 --> 0:33:05.880
<v Speaker 1>lived for five thousand years, but they all got wiped

0:33:05.880 --> 0:33:09.000
<v Speaker 1>out by the glaciers. Another problem is that humans have

0:33:09.080 --> 0:33:11.840
<v Speaker 1>been cutting down trees for a really long time to

0:33:11.880 --> 0:33:15.640
<v Speaker 1>build our houses and you know, to build our skyscrapers,

0:33:15.680 --> 0:33:17.640
<v Speaker 1>just to build a lot of different stuff, and so

0:33:18.120 --> 0:33:21.040
<v Speaker 1>we have removed a lot of trees from the landscape,

0:33:21.080 --> 0:33:24.400
<v Speaker 1>and so what we have left to age is maybe

0:33:24.440 --> 0:33:27.000
<v Speaker 1>a subset that is less informative than it would have

0:33:27.040 --> 0:33:28.760
<v Speaker 1>been if all of the trees had still been there,

0:33:29.320 --> 0:33:31.200
<v Speaker 1>or every once in a while you get an outbreak

0:33:31.280 --> 0:33:34.640
<v Speaker 1>or something like the United States used to have tons

0:33:34.640 --> 0:33:37.600
<v Speaker 1>of chestnuts, Like everywhere I look now there's pines and oaks.

0:33:37.920 --> 0:33:40.400
<v Speaker 1>If I had lived here before, a chestnut, like the

0:33:40.440 --> 0:33:43.320
<v Speaker 1>most common tree in my area would have been a chestnut.

0:33:43.360 --> 0:33:45.240
<v Speaker 1>But now we don't have any of them in the area,

0:33:45.800 --> 0:33:48.840
<v Speaker 1>And so we have a bias subset from which to

0:33:48.880 --> 0:33:51.480
<v Speaker 1>try to answer these questions why do some trees live

0:33:51.560 --> 0:33:52.360
<v Speaker 1>longer than others?

0:33:52.800 --> 0:33:54.800
<v Speaker 2>But we always have a bias subset, right, We just

0:33:54.880 --> 0:33:58.080
<v Speaker 2>have a subset that happened to survive, that made it

0:33:58.120 --> 0:34:01.880
<v Speaker 2>through the deaf gauntlet of the present conditions. We never know,

0:34:02.040 --> 0:34:05.760
<v Speaker 2>like on average, over a thousand parallel earths, what would

0:34:05.800 --> 0:34:08.279
<v Speaker 2>have survived. We just got the ones that happen to

0:34:08.280 --> 0:34:10.719
<v Speaker 2>get lucky and happen to survive this time. Right. Isn't

0:34:10.760 --> 0:34:12.520
<v Speaker 2>that always true of evolutionary history?

0:34:13.160 --> 0:34:16.600
<v Speaker 1>Yes, I'd say it's also sort of always true with

0:34:16.680 --> 0:34:19.960
<v Speaker 1>physics too, Like, you know, you only have the information

0:34:20.200 --> 0:34:22.680
<v Speaker 1>that you've already created tools for. You don't know what

0:34:22.719 --> 0:34:25.080
<v Speaker 1>you're missing, And so I think in general, a big

0:34:25.120 --> 0:34:28.919
<v Speaker 1>part of being a scientist should involve being humble about

0:34:28.960 --> 0:34:30.080
<v Speaker 1>what you do and don't know.

0:34:30.480 --> 0:34:32.560
<v Speaker 2>No, it's important to always put this in context, right

0:34:32.600 --> 0:34:35.240
<v Speaker 2>and remember that we have a tiny fraction of the information,

0:34:35.520 --> 0:34:37.440
<v Speaker 2>and that fraction is biased for sure.

0:34:37.800 --> 0:34:40.600
<v Speaker 1>So one thing to note that we talked about earlier

0:34:41.239 --> 0:34:45.840
<v Speaker 1>is that growing slowly seems to be associated with longer

0:34:45.920 --> 0:34:48.560
<v Speaker 1>life for trees, and that can either be at the

0:34:48.600 --> 0:34:51.799
<v Speaker 1>species level or within a species. So it looks like

0:34:51.840 --> 0:34:55.319
<v Speaker 1>individuals that tend to grow slowly early in life are

0:34:55.360 --> 0:34:58.640
<v Speaker 1>also the ones that tend to live longer. So if

0:34:58.680 --> 0:35:02.600
<v Speaker 1>they're growing more slowly, they're investing in a denser, higher

0:35:02.719 --> 0:35:07.200
<v Speaker 1>quality would and maybe they're also investing in stronger roots

0:35:07.480 --> 0:35:10.640
<v Speaker 1>or some chemicals that can fight off pests, and so

0:35:10.680 --> 0:35:15.040
<v Speaker 1>this investment in strength helps them when, for example, a

0:35:15.120 --> 0:35:17.960
<v Speaker 1>hurricane or tornado comes by. Maybe they're likely to be

0:35:18.000 --> 0:35:21.600
<v Speaker 1>still standing when that's done. Whereas if an individual grows quickly,

0:35:22.080 --> 0:35:24.120
<v Speaker 1>then the quality of the wood that they produce is

0:35:24.280 --> 0:35:27.359
<v Speaker 1>less good and so something is more likely to take

0:35:27.400 --> 0:35:30.440
<v Speaker 1>them out if something like a hurricane or a tornado

0:35:30.520 --> 0:35:33.880
<v Speaker 1>comes through. So individuals who grow more slowly tend to

0:35:33.960 --> 0:35:35.240
<v Speaker 1>be the ones that live longer.

0:35:35.320 --> 0:35:38.319
<v Speaker 2>Well, how does this map two long and short lifetimes

0:35:38.360 --> 0:35:41.800
<v Speaker 2>for other critters, like in mammals with the longest lived mammal.

0:35:42.239 --> 0:35:45.279
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so this idea does map pretty well to the

0:35:45.400 --> 0:35:48.239
<v Speaker 1>rn K strategy stuff that we were talking about with

0:35:48.280 --> 0:35:50.520
<v Speaker 1>Katie when she was on the show. You end up

0:35:50.560 --> 0:35:53.000
<v Speaker 1>with some species that grow fast and some species that

0:35:53.040 --> 0:35:56.759
<v Speaker 1>grow slow. There's also this idea where if you are

0:35:57.440 --> 0:36:01.120
<v Speaker 1>not growing as fast as the other mammals and you

0:36:01.320 --> 0:36:03.879
<v Speaker 1>invest in growing really quickly to try to catch up,

0:36:04.560 --> 0:36:08.480
<v Speaker 1>the quality of that fast grown muscle or fast grown

0:36:08.560 --> 0:36:11.200
<v Speaker 1>you know, bones, anything that you grew fast is probably

0:36:11.239 --> 0:36:13.000
<v Speaker 1>not as good as if you had grown sort of

0:36:13.040 --> 0:36:16.920
<v Speaker 1>slowly and invested in doing it right. So in multiple

0:36:16.920 --> 0:36:19.640
<v Speaker 1>flora and fauna, we see the signature of fast growth

0:36:19.719 --> 0:36:22.400
<v Speaker 1>sometimes coming at the expense of the quality of that growth.

0:36:22.680 --> 0:36:24.840
<v Speaker 2>I guess I wasn't that interested in mammals in particular,

0:36:24.920 --> 0:36:27.160
<v Speaker 2>more like animals, because I know that you know, there's

0:36:27.160 --> 0:36:29.080
<v Speaker 2>some sharks that have lived for hundreds of years and

0:36:29.200 --> 0:36:32.080
<v Speaker 2>turtles lived for hundreds of years, whereas like I know,

0:36:32.239 --> 0:36:34.960
<v Speaker 2>mice live for just a few years, but they're also tiny.

0:36:35.600 --> 0:36:39.480
<v Speaker 2>So just like size and age correlation work more broadly.

0:36:39.560 --> 0:36:41.520
<v Speaker 1>I don't know it would be fun to do a

0:36:41.520 --> 0:36:43.960
<v Speaker 1>whole episode on aging at some point. I know greenland

0:36:43.960 --> 0:36:46.000
<v Speaker 1>sharks can live to be like hundreds of years old,

0:36:46.320 --> 0:36:48.759
<v Speaker 1>but I don't know why we think greenland sharks in

0:36:48.760 --> 0:36:52.560
<v Speaker 1>particular live that long. Somebody might know, but I don't know.

0:36:53.160 --> 0:36:54.960
<v Speaker 2>Somebody's probably gone down and trying to take a core

0:36:55.000 --> 0:36:56.920
<v Speaker 2>sample of a greenland shark and a bit that didn't

0:36:56.960 --> 0:36:57.600
<v Speaker 2>go very well.

0:36:57.800 --> 0:37:01.200
<v Speaker 1>No, No, they do not look like happy show. They

0:37:01.239 --> 0:37:02.920
<v Speaker 1>look old. You look at them, and they've got like

0:37:03.160 --> 0:37:05.560
<v Speaker 1>sadness in their eyes. Not that all old people are said.

0:37:05.680 --> 0:37:06.960
<v Speaker 1>I'm backing up. I'm backing up.

0:37:07.640 --> 0:37:10.440
<v Speaker 2>Old trees don't look sad. Old trees have a grace

0:37:10.520 --> 0:37:12.480
<v Speaker 2>and a beauty that's very hard to match.

0:37:12.760 --> 0:37:14.600
<v Speaker 1>Oh my gosh, they do. That is true for so

0:37:14.719 --> 0:37:16.240
<v Speaker 1>many ancient individuals.

0:37:16.600 --> 0:37:19.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, all right, so let's hold some reverence for the

0:37:19.280 --> 0:37:22.000
<v Speaker 2>old folks among us and take another break so we

0:37:22.040 --> 0:37:25.799
<v Speaker 2>can gather our energy and talk about how trees live

0:37:25.840 --> 0:37:28.239
<v Speaker 2>so long and to answer the listeners question about why

0:37:28.280 --> 0:37:48.480
<v Speaker 2>they live longer than people. Okay, we're back, and we're

0:37:48.480 --> 0:37:51.760
<v Speaker 2>talking about how California is beautiful and filled with the oldest,

0:37:51.800 --> 0:37:55.319
<v Speaker 2>the tallest, the biggest, and probably the most beautiful trees in.

0:37:55.280 --> 0:37:58.200
<v Speaker 1>The world because there's not a lot of competition, because

0:37:58.320 --> 0:38:00.239
<v Speaker 1>what trees would want to live there? If they could

0:38:00.280 --> 0:38:02.080
<v Speaker 1>live in Virginia.

0:38:02.880 --> 0:38:05.120
<v Speaker 2>You're saying, if you could survey trees and offer them

0:38:05.239 --> 0:38:07.600
<v Speaker 2>a spot in Shindoah, they would all pick up and move.

0:38:08.239 --> 0:38:09.919
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I bet who would?

0:38:10.520 --> 0:38:12.680
<v Speaker 2>You might be right, You might be right. It is beautiful,

0:38:13.160 --> 0:38:16.200
<v Speaker 2>all right. So tell us these oldest trees, how is

0:38:16.239 --> 0:38:18.720
<v Speaker 2>it that they go about living so long? What tricks

0:38:18.719 --> 0:38:21.720
<v Speaker 2>do they have under their bark that let them survive

0:38:21.760 --> 0:38:23.920
<v Speaker 2>for thousands upon thousands of years?

0:38:24.400 --> 0:38:30.359
<v Speaker 1>So trees are so weird and so unlike anything I've

0:38:30.360 --> 0:38:33.480
<v Speaker 1>come to expect as a mammal. There are things I

0:38:33.680 --> 0:38:37.680
<v Speaker 1>expect bodies to do, and trees just don't follow any

0:38:37.719 --> 0:38:41.359
<v Speaker 1>of those rules. Okay, So one and this is kind

0:38:41.400 --> 0:38:43.680
<v Speaker 1>of amazing. So we talked about that cambrial layer, the

0:38:43.760 --> 0:38:46.560
<v Speaker 1>layer that is growing the bark while also growing the

0:38:46.560 --> 0:38:49.840
<v Speaker 1>wood inside of the tree. The cells in that layer

0:38:50.360 --> 0:38:52.399
<v Speaker 1>don't show evidence of sinescence.

0:38:52.800 --> 0:38:53.719
<v Speaker 2>What sinescence?

0:38:53.800 --> 0:38:58.759
<v Speaker 1>So sinessence is like getting old and sorry everybody, but

0:38:59.000 --> 0:39:01.600
<v Speaker 1>you know the quality of the cell sort of deteriorating

0:39:01.600 --> 0:39:02.160
<v Speaker 1>over time.

0:39:03.200 --> 0:39:05.319
<v Speaker 2>So you're saying, in some trees, you can see these

0:39:05.400 --> 0:39:08.520
<v Speaker 2>cambria layers aging, but in the trees that live a

0:39:08.600 --> 0:39:10.240
<v Speaker 2>very long time, they just keep going.

0:39:10.680 --> 0:39:15.600
<v Speaker 1>I think that you don't see cambril cells aging in

0:39:15.640 --> 0:39:19.200
<v Speaker 1>like any trees. Oh, and this is why trees in

0:39:19.320 --> 0:39:22.360
<v Speaker 1>general on average tend to live a long time.

0:39:22.920 --> 0:39:23.960
<v Speaker 2>Oh fascinating.

0:39:24.040 --> 0:39:27.880
<v Speaker 1>We're still trying to figure out why this happens. But

0:39:28.280 --> 0:39:30.440
<v Speaker 1>the cells just seem to have this like fountain of

0:39:30.480 --> 0:39:35.320
<v Speaker 1>youth thing going on. And so because the cells aren't aging,

0:39:36.239 --> 0:39:39.920
<v Speaker 1>the things that usually kill trees isn't you know, it

0:39:40.040 --> 0:39:41.920
<v Speaker 1>just got old and stopped working. But it tends to

0:39:41.960 --> 0:39:47.560
<v Speaker 1>be things like fire or insects or erosion or hurricanes.

0:39:48.080 --> 0:39:50.839
<v Speaker 1>It's you know, things external to the tree that end

0:39:50.920 --> 0:39:52.600
<v Speaker 1>up being the cause of the tree death.

0:39:53.400 --> 0:39:56.240
<v Speaker 2>So it sort of seems like the trees constantly replicating itself,

0:39:56.280 --> 0:39:59.640
<v Speaker 2>like every years you basically have a new tree built

0:39:59.680 --> 0:40:02.040
<v Speaker 2>around the body of the old tree.

0:40:02.480 --> 0:40:04.920
<v Speaker 1>So I'm gonna jump out of place in my outline now,

0:40:04.920 --> 0:40:07.800
<v Speaker 1>because yes, it has this amazing way of replicating itself.

0:40:07.800 --> 0:40:11.120
<v Speaker 1>Where for some trees, if it like for example, falls over,

0:40:11.440 --> 0:40:14.680
<v Speaker 1>or if some of the branches touch moist soil, the

0:40:14.719 --> 0:40:17.560
<v Speaker 1>branches or the part of the tree that fell over

0:40:17.680 --> 0:40:21.160
<v Speaker 1>can start putting down roots and a new sapling comes

0:40:21.280 --> 0:40:22.080
<v Speaker 1>up from there.

0:40:22.520 --> 0:40:26.400
<v Speaker 2>What that's crazy. It's like if I put my elbow

0:40:26.400 --> 0:40:28.640
<v Speaker 2>in a bowl of oatmeal and like turned into.

0:40:28.440 --> 0:40:31.680
<v Speaker 1>A person, another Daniel. You know, it wouldn't be like

0:40:31.760 --> 0:40:34.000
<v Speaker 1>it produced one of your kids. It's like producing a

0:40:34.080 --> 0:40:37.359
<v Speaker 1>clone of you. Oh so, like another Daniel emerges from

0:40:37.400 --> 0:40:41.040
<v Speaker 1>your oatmeal. I'm glad I didn't give you oatmeal when

0:40:41.040 --> 0:40:42.399
<v Speaker 1>you were at our place, So.

0:40:43.520 --> 0:40:45.279
<v Speaker 2>Because you can't take more than one of me, that's

0:40:45.320 --> 0:40:45.680
<v Speaker 2>for sure.

0:40:45.800 --> 0:40:48.279
<v Speaker 1>No, that's actually a world full of Daniels would have

0:40:48.280 --> 0:40:48.840
<v Speaker 1>been great.

0:40:48.680 --> 0:40:54.279
<v Speaker 2>But nobody believes you. All right. So these trees having

0:40:54.320 --> 0:40:56.200
<v Speaker 2>these weird ways of cloning themselves.

0:40:56.560 --> 0:40:58.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so they've got these weird ways of cloning themselves,

0:40:58.680 --> 0:41:01.759
<v Speaker 1>and they also have other weird ways of fixing themselves.

0:41:02.080 --> 0:41:05.719
<v Speaker 1>Throughout the tree, there are these buds, and some of

0:41:05.760 --> 0:41:10.040
<v Speaker 1>the buds will like turn into branches and stems and

0:41:10.160 --> 0:41:12.440
<v Speaker 1>leaves and stuff like that. But some of those buds

0:41:12.480 --> 0:41:16.320
<v Speaker 1>stay dormant, and while the leaves are growing, a hormonal

0:41:16.360 --> 0:41:19.960
<v Speaker 1>message is getting sent to those buds that says, stay put,

0:41:20.280 --> 0:41:23.000
<v Speaker 1>don't develop, stay a bud, And so it stays a

0:41:23.000 --> 0:41:25.920
<v Speaker 1>bud and doesn't do anything. But then if something happens

0:41:25.960 --> 0:41:29.239
<v Speaker 1>and like that branch falls off or something, and those

0:41:29.320 --> 0:41:32.880
<v Speaker 1>leaves are no longer sending the message, that bud snaps

0:41:32.880 --> 0:41:36.959
<v Speaker 1>into action and starts, you know, building a new stem

0:41:37.120 --> 0:41:39.759
<v Speaker 1>or something like that. So trees have all of these

0:41:39.760 --> 0:41:42.520
<v Speaker 1>different parts that are waiting to emerge. So it would

0:41:42.520 --> 0:41:44.600
<v Speaker 1>be like, if you are fingers, we're sending a message

0:41:44.640 --> 0:41:47.120
<v Speaker 1>to your wrist saying we've got enough fingers, don't worry

0:41:47.160 --> 0:41:49.839
<v Speaker 1>about it. But then if you lost your fingers, that

0:41:49.960 --> 0:41:51.960
<v Speaker 1>message is no longer being sent to your wrist, and

0:41:52.000 --> 0:41:54.160
<v Speaker 1>your wrist is like time to grow more fingers, and

0:41:54.200 --> 0:41:57.640
<v Speaker 1>so it's just ready to regenerate what had been lost.

0:41:57.760 --> 0:41:59.640
<v Speaker 1>And it's just kind of like standing in wait.

0:42:00.040 --> 0:42:02.839
<v Speaker 2>Wow, that's incredible. That's so different from the way our

0:42:02.880 --> 0:42:04.760
<v Speaker 2>bodies work. It feels so alien.

0:42:05.120 --> 0:42:08.400
<v Speaker 1>So alien. Yeah, okay, And so another thing that's amazing

0:42:08.440 --> 0:42:11.680
<v Speaker 1>about these trees is you know, part of them is alive,

0:42:11.800 --> 0:42:16.080
<v Speaker 1>but a lot of them can be dead. And so

0:42:16.160 --> 0:42:19.239
<v Speaker 1>for example, some trees, and not all trees, but some

0:42:19.440 --> 0:42:23.600
<v Speaker 1>trees have this system where essentially the like pipes that

0:42:23.760 --> 0:42:27.120
<v Speaker 1>provide water to the top part of the tree the xylum.

0:42:27.640 --> 0:42:31.759
<v Speaker 1>Instead of essentially like servicing all of the tree, the

0:42:31.800 --> 0:42:35.760
<v Speaker 1>pipes service a very particular part of the tree. What yeah,

0:42:35.800 --> 0:42:39.920
<v Speaker 1>And so like with bristle cone pines, erosion exposes the

0:42:40.000 --> 0:42:42.759
<v Speaker 1>roots to like dry air, and it kills some of

0:42:42.760 --> 0:42:45.120
<v Speaker 1>the roots. But as long as some of those roots

0:42:45.200 --> 0:42:48.560
<v Speaker 1>are still in good shape, they can provide water and

0:42:48.680 --> 0:42:52.120
<v Speaker 1>nutrients to like a branch or a couple different branches.

0:42:52.440 --> 0:42:54.600
<v Speaker 1>And so you can end up with like I don't know,

0:42:54.800 --> 0:42:57.720
<v Speaker 1>eighty percent of the tree being dead, but twenty percent

0:42:57.840 --> 0:43:00.960
<v Speaker 1>sliver still having leaves, still being able to produce seed

0:43:01.480 --> 0:43:04.640
<v Speaker 1>and still being alive. And so it's like a very

0:43:04.680 --> 0:43:07.560
<v Speaker 1>slow process of death, but it still counts as alive

0:43:07.600 --> 0:43:09.399
<v Speaker 1>because it can still reproduce and it you know, it's

0:43:09.400 --> 0:43:10.680
<v Speaker 1>still producing green leaves.

0:43:11.280 --> 0:43:14.760
<v Speaker 2>I never thought about that how one root doesn't service

0:43:14.840 --> 0:43:17.640
<v Speaker 2>the whole tree. It's like this root is for that branch,

0:43:17.680 --> 0:43:19.960
<v Speaker 2>and this root is for that branch, And so if

0:43:20.000 --> 0:43:21.880
<v Speaker 2>you kill some of the roots, you killing part of

0:43:21.920 --> 0:43:25.880
<v Speaker 2>the tree. You're not just weakening the whole tree. That's fascinating.

0:43:25.920 --> 0:43:28.000
<v Speaker 2>It's like if I had ten mouths and I need

0:43:28.040 --> 0:43:30.600
<v Speaker 2>to like feed this one for that leg and this

0:43:30.640 --> 0:43:33.000
<v Speaker 2>one for the other leg, and like, oops, there wasn't

0:43:33.000 --> 0:43:35.000
<v Speaker 2>any oatmeal left from my right arm, so that's just

0:43:35.000 --> 0:43:36.760
<v Speaker 2>going to be hungry today, and that's weird.

0:43:37.160 --> 0:43:40.080
<v Speaker 1>There are tree species where like one root has you know,

0:43:40.160 --> 0:43:42.600
<v Speaker 1>like multiple we'll call it pipes that come out of it,

0:43:42.640 --> 0:43:44.759
<v Speaker 1>and it feeds different parts of the tree. But there

0:43:44.760 --> 0:43:47.120
<v Speaker 1>are some species of tree where you get this more

0:43:47.280 --> 0:43:49.680
<v Speaker 1>tight link between a certain set of branches and a

0:43:49.719 --> 0:43:52.719
<v Speaker 1>certain root, and in that way it's able to sort

0:43:52.760 --> 0:43:55.560
<v Speaker 1>of die in sections and eke out in existence for longer.

0:43:55.719 --> 0:43:58.359
<v Speaker 2>It's almost more like a community than an individual, right.

0:43:58.360 --> 0:44:00.759
<v Speaker 2>They're just like a budge of brain systems that are

0:44:00.800 --> 0:44:02.560
<v Speaker 2>sort of like growing together, and some of them die

0:44:02.600 --> 0:44:04.600
<v Speaker 2>off and some of them continue. It's like a little

0:44:04.640 --> 0:44:05.920
<v Speaker 2>community of mini trees.

0:44:06.320 --> 0:44:10.000
<v Speaker 1>So I think that comparison works better for our next example.

0:44:10.080 --> 0:44:12.600
<v Speaker 1>I feel like what we just talked about would be

0:44:12.640 --> 0:44:15.919
<v Speaker 1>more like, you know, everything, but my hand could die,

0:44:16.000 --> 0:44:18.760
<v Speaker 1>but my hand is still alive, and so you'd still

0:44:18.760 --> 0:44:19.600
<v Speaker 1>call me alive.

0:44:20.400 --> 0:44:22.200
<v Speaker 2>That sounds like a horror movie I don't want to see.

0:44:22.480 --> 0:44:25.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no, me as well. But the final example for

0:44:25.960 --> 0:44:29.279
<v Speaker 1>how trees managed to live so long is cloning. So

0:44:30.200 --> 0:44:33.760
<v Speaker 1>you have these trees called quaking aspens in the Rocky mountains,

0:44:34.360 --> 0:44:37.160
<v Speaker 1>and they're absolutely gorgeous. They're like, you know, these long

0:44:37.239 --> 0:44:40.040
<v Speaker 1>white trees. They turn beautiful colors in the fall, and

0:44:40.320 --> 0:44:44.960
<v Speaker 1>their roots are able to put out what's called a

0:44:45.080 --> 0:44:48.040
<v Speaker 1>rammit Ramit is a general word for an individual clone

0:44:48.080 --> 0:44:50.960
<v Speaker 1>when you have like a clonal organism, but it produces

0:44:51.000 --> 0:44:53.200
<v Speaker 1>a stem will come out from the root and it

0:44:53.239 --> 0:44:55.399
<v Speaker 1>will turn into a tree, and then that tree will

0:44:55.440 --> 0:44:58.160
<v Speaker 1>produce more roots, and then it will also have a rammit,

0:44:58.239 --> 0:45:00.279
<v Speaker 1>so a stem that comes out. It's all all the

0:45:00.320 --> 0:45:05.000
<v Speaker 1>same genotype. They're all connected by their roots and can

0:45:05.040 --> 0:45:08.960
<v Speaker 1>take up over one hundred acres of land, and it's

0:45:09.040 --> 0:45:12.200
<v Speaker 1>all the same genotype. And so you know, you can say, okay,

0:45:12.200 --> 0:45:16.080
<v Speaker 1>well that doesn't really match how I think of an individual,

0:45:16.120 --> 0:45:18.840
<v Speaker 1>and so it's cheating to say that you get to

0:45:18.880 --> 0:45:22.359
<v Speaker 1>count all of that living stuff. But they can live

0:45:22.400 --> 0:45:25.799
<v Speaker 1>for like ten thousand years, we think, And so you know,

0:45:25.840 --> 0:45:28.040
<v Speaker 1>if you're willing to count that as an individual because

0:45:28.080 --> 0:45:30.640
<v Speaker 1>it's all the same genotype, it has all the same

0:45:30.680 --> 0:45:32.880
<v Speaker 1>genetic makeup. I'm sure there's some mutations in there, but

0:45:32.960 --> 0:45:35.040
<v Speaker 1>you know, very similar. Then that can live for up

0:45:35.040 --> 0:45:35.919
<v Speaker 1>to ten thousand years.

0:45:36.239 --> 0:45:38.799
<v Speaker 2>Well, that's interesting and really challenges your philosophy of like

0:45:38.880 --> 0:45:41.520
<v Speaker 2>what is an individual? I mean, if we had human

0:45:41.560 --> 0:45:44.960
<v Speaker 2>cloning and you turned eighty five and we decided to

0:45:44.960 --> 0:45:47.520
<v Speaker 2>make a new Kelly, would you consider that Kelly to

0:45:47.560 --> 0:45:49.439
<v Speaker 2>be the same as you? And then when you died,

0:45:49.640 --> 0:45:51.080
<v Speaker 2>you feel like, no, I'm still alive.

0:45:51.480 --> 0:45:54.319
<v Speaker 1>I see your point, But like this tree is able

0:45:54.360 --> 0:45:56.960
<v Speaker 1>to do that with no help, Like it's incredible to me.

0:45:57.120 --> 0:46:00.560
<v Speaker 1>And they're also able to produce seed, so they can

0:46:00.680 --> 0:46:03.400
<v Speaker 1>produce this way, but they can also produce seeds that

0:46:03.480 --> 0:46:05.520
<v Speaker 1>can go off and start this whole thing, you know,

0:46:05.920 --> 0:46:09.920
<v Speaker 1>going somewhere else. I think it's an interesting philosophical debate

0:46:09.960 --> 0:46:12.800
<v Speaker 1>about whether all of those trees and one hundred acres

0:46:12.840 --> 0:46:15.560
<v Speaker 1>counts as the same individual or not. But one way

0:46:15.600 --> 0:46:19.160
<v Speaker 1>or another, it's an amazing evolutionary strategy to replicate an

0:46:19.239 --> 0:46:21.760
<v Speaker 1>organism's genes and get them spread throughout the environment.

0:46:22.440 --> 0:46:24.839
<v Speaker 2>I guess it does depend on what you consider to

0:46:24.840 --> 0:46:27.520
<v Speaker 2>be the individual, because in my case, to feel like

0:46:27.640 --> 0:46:30.160
<v Speaker 2>I'm still alive, I would want to keep my memories,

0:46:30.200 --> 0:46:32.840
<v Speaker 2>my personality, all of my experiences, and I feel like

0:46:33.120 --> 0:46:36.240
<v Speaker 2>butt off a new Daniel on my elbow probably wouldn't

0:46:36.280 --> 0:46:39.080
<v Speaker 2>have all those experiences, and so it wouldn't really be

0:46:39.200 --> 0:46:41.880
<v Speaker 2>me even if it had the same genotype. So this

0:46:42.080 --> 0:46:45.720
<v Speaker 2>whole nature versus nurture aspect, Yeah, fascinating. Wow.

0:46:46.160 --> 0:46:51.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So the listener wanted to know why do humans

0:46:51.200 --> 0:46:53.560
<v Speaker 1>not live as long as trees? And I think the

0:46:53.640 --> 0:46:56.440
<v Speaker 1>answer is that trees have just gone down such a

0:46:56.480 --> 0:46:59.919
<v Speaker 1>different evolutionary path than humans have that they are able

0:46:59.960 --> 0:47:03.240
<v Speaker 1>to sort of die incrementally and sort of really stretch

0:47:03.320 --> 0:47:06.440
<v Speaker 1>the process out. There are a lot of pieces that

0:47:06.560 --> 0:47:09.080
<v Speaker 1>all need to be working in order for our bodies

0:47:09.120 --> 0:47:12.319
<v Speaker 1>to keep going, whereas trees are able to do things

0:47:12.320 --> 0:47:15.840
<v Speaker 1>like compartmentalized to eke out in existence for a lot longer.

0:47:15.920 --> 0:47:18.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I'm sometimes surprised that I'm living as long as

0:47:19.000 --> 0:47:21.439
<v Speaker 2>I am when I have all these bits that all

0:47:21.520 --> 0:47:24.080
<v Speaker 2>have to work all the time. Yeah, and they all

0:47:24.120 --> 0:47:27.200
<v Speaker 2>seem sort of complicated, like we are a very elaborate

0:47:27.200 --> 0:47:29.719
<v Speaker 2>meat machine. It's amazing that we keep going as long

0:47:29.760 --> 0:47:30.120
<v Speaker 2>as we do.

0:47:30.480 --> 0:47:33.240
<v Speaker 1>I absolutely agree. And it's amazing that we don't encounter

0:47:33.360 --> 0:47:35.960
<v Speaker 1>even more problems along the way, given how many things

0:47:36.000 --> 0:47:38.680
<v Speaker 1>have to go perfectly in order for us to continue

0:47:39.080 --> 0:47:40.719
<v Speaker 1>existing the way we do well.

0:47:40.760 --> 0:47:42.799
<v Speaker 2>One thing that I think humans will continue to do

0:47:42.920 --> 0:47:45.440
<v Speaker 2>as we age is to be curious about the world

0:47:45.480 --> 0:47:47.319
<v Speaker 2>and to wonder and to build knowledge. And I'm just

0:47:47.400 --> 0:47:51.160
<v Speaker 2>glad the human knowledge builds from generation to generation. We

0:47:51.200 --> 0:47:53.600
<v Speaker 2>can path this down. You don't have to be five

0:47:53.680 --> 0:47:56.520
<v Speaker 2>thousand years old to have five thousand years worth of

0:47:56.600 --> 0:47:59.000
<v Speaker 2>knowledge because we're able to inherit it from all the

0:47:59.040 --> 0:48:00.560
<v Speaker 2>folks that were curious before us.

0:48:01.040 --> 0:48:04.920
<v Speaker 1>Yes, And it became so clear to me while researching

0:48:04.920 --> 0:48:07.239
<v Speaker 1>this just how important that knowledge is and how it

0:48:07.280 --> 0:48:09.840
<v Speaker 1>builds on each other and how you know, dendro chronology,

0:48:09.840 --> 0:48:12.359
<v Speaker 1>which is the aging of trees helps you with archaeology.

0:48:12.400 --> 0:48:14.640
<v Speaker 1>And it's just we're very lucky to have all of

0:48:14.680 --> 0:48:17.239
<v Speaker 1>this cultural ability to transmit knowledge.

0:48:17.520 --> 0:48:20.320
<v Speaker 2>It is incredible, And I love the depth of nerndomb

0:48:20.360 --> 0:48:23.920
<v Speaker 2>that existed so many little facets of science, you know,

0:48:23.920 --> 0:48:26.400
<v Speaker 2>people who have figured out how this works for trees

0:48:26.480 --> 0:48:29.319
<v Speaker 2>and helps us in other areas like that requires an

0:48:29.320 --> 0:48:32.160
<v Speaker 2>individual to be like super fascinated by this topic and

0:48:32.200 --> 0:48:34.319
<v Speaker 2>devote their life to it. And wow, I'm just so

0:48:34.400 --> 0:48:36.560
<v Speaker 2>grateful that there are people out there who are curious

0:48:36.560 --> 0:48:39.960
<v Speaker 2>and pushing knowledge forward. In every direction simultaneously.

0:48:40.400 --> 0:48:42.800
<v Speaker 1>Thank you for being curious and listening to our show,

0:48:42.880 --> 0:48:44.759
<v Speaker 1>and we hope to see you at the next episode.

0:48:45.120 --> 0:48:46.000
<v Speaker 2>Tune in next time.

0:48:46.840 --> 0:48:50.600
<v Speaker 3>Thank you for answering my question. You answered it really well,

0:48:50.640 --> 0:48:54.120
<v Speaker 3>and it's how trees can be alive and some places

0:48:54.120 --> 0:48:56.360
<v Speaker 3>and data and other places at the same time.

0:49:03.360 --> 0:49:07.160
<v Speaker 1>Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is produced by iHeartRadio. We

0:49:07.200 --> 0:49:09.640
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0:49:24.719 --> 0:49:27.920
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