1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,480 Speaker 1: Fellow conspiracy realist. We are exploring a classic that is 2 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 1: near and dear to our collective heart. As you may know, 3 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: Matt Noll and yours truly work extensively in the world 4 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:19,640 Speaker 1: of audio fiction. And we had just an amazing conversation 5 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: with a good friend of the show, filmmaker Brett Wood, 6 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: who created something called the Control Group. And though it 7 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: may be fiction, it is very much based in fact. 8 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:32,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is one of the first fiction pods we 9 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 2: ever did. And this is kind of your baby, Ben. 10 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 2: You really help with all the development and all of 11 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:41,200 Speaker 2: the stuff involving what led to this really really fantastic show. 12 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: Oh, credit where it's due, Paul Decant and I helped 13 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: out with it. 14 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 3: There you go. 15 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 4: Oh, and there's human experimentation involved in this one. 16 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 3: I do believe that's correct. Let's get on the slab. 17 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 5: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 18 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 5: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 19 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 5: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. 20 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 4: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, 21 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 4: my name is Noah. 22 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:23,400 Speaker 1: They call me Ben. We are joined with our super 23 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 1: producer Paul Decant. Most importantly, you are you, and you 24 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 1: are here, and that makes this stuff they don't want 25 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: you to know. A very special episode of our show 26 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: today because we are delving into something that has always 27 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 1: fascinated us. I think as individuals and as a group, 28 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: and that is the strange intersection of ethics and experimentation. 29 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: Science right science versus the humanity of both the experimenters 30 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 1: and the experimentees. But we are not alone in this endeavor. 31 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: Today we are joined with a friend of the show, 32 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 1: a filmmaker Brett Wood, who just recently created How Stuff Works, 33 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 1: first fiction podcast, The Control Group. Brett, thank you so 34 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: much for coming on the show with us today. 35 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:18,359 Speaker 6: Brett, what is excited to be here? 36 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 4: And you are indeed Brett Wood. I, well, we haven't 37 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:26,119 Speaker 4: fully confirmed. I haven't seen any identification. Did you guys 38 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 4: get identification? 39 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 3: They got it at the front desk. We have a 40 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 3: new policy. 41 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 6: Okay, he's cool. 42 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 4: He looks a lot like Brett Wood. 43 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 1: He at least signed his name Brett Wood when he 44 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: got in here, which is about the level of our security. 45 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 3: Wow, man, you're really throwing our security team under the bus. 46 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 1: So, Brett, we were extremely excited about the Control Group 47 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:51,639 Speaker 1: as we were learning more about the show and more 48 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: about the real life things, events, people and places that 49 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:04,640 Speaker 1: inspired the the narrative of The Control Group, And from 50 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 1: what we understand, this originally was a screenplay, is that correct? 51 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 6: Right? About six years ago? 52 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 7: I wanted to make it as a film and quickly 53 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:18,519 Speaker 7: realized that it was sort of beyond my means as 54 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 7: an independent filmmaker to have this large hospital facility and 55 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 7: a fair number of extras as patients in the hospital. 56 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 7: And also, as we may get into a little bit 57 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 7: later on, I ran into some problems with the locations 58 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 7: where I wanted to shoot, so I then moved over 59 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 7: to a different project which is mostly set in a house, 60 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 7: which was much more manageable for me. 61 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 4: Is that one called Those Who Deserve to Die? 62 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 6: That's coming up next? 63 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 7: That one I've just finished and have not yet shown anywhere, 64 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 7: or we're just finishing up the sound and music. 65 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 6: The Unwanted is the one we did instead of The Control. 66 00:03:55,920 --> 00:04:00,080 Speaker 1: Group, right, And for anyone unfamiliar with the work, you 67 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: are quite a prolific creator. Made The Unwanted in twenty fourteen, 68 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: Psychopathia Sexualist in two thousand and six, a documentary that 69 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: we leaned on pretty heavily in another show called car Stuff. 70 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 1: It's called Hell's Highway The True Story of Highway Safety 71 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 1: Films in two thousand and three, which I cannot recommend 72 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 1: enough if you want something with a disturbing twist. 73 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 3: Those are upsetting. 74 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:24,479 Speaker 2: Oh yes, I remember the carst Of episode that was 75 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 2: back in my heyday as super producer Nol Brown. 76 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: That's true, that's true. We all go way back in 77 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: this regard. 78 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 4: So I like where your work has taken you thus 79 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,039 Speaker 4: far and kind of where it's headed. Can you tell 80 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 4: us exactly what the control group is, what it's about. 81 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 7: Sure, it's a sort of a narrativization of a couple 82 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:51,160 Speaker 7: of different threads that were going on in sort of 83 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 7: psychological medicine and covert government activities in the nineteen fifties 84 00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 7: and sixties, one of which is the government's drug testing 85 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 7: programs better known as MK Ultra. 86 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 6: Of course, Artichoke, Bluebird. 87 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 7: There were lots of names for what they were doing, 88 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 7: which is basically secretly testing drugs on people, preferably unsuspecting people, 89 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:17,279 Speaker 7: and trying to determine if these could be useful tools 90 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:21,159 Speaker 7: for either mind control or interrogation. And then the other thread. 91 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 8: Of it is the CIA sponsorship of experimental psychological testing, 92 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 8: you know, without any apparent connection to the you know, 93 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:36,359 Speaker 8: covert interrogation. 94 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 6: Arm of what they were doing. 95 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 7: So they would they just set up a front organization 96 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 7: to fund colleges, hospitals, doctors to just do experiments that 97 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 7: might kind of fit in with the kind of stuff 98 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 7: they're interested in, namely things like erasing someone's memory, getting 99 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 7: them to unlock the secrets which they be protecting. 100 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 6: You can sort of see anything that might be applicable. 101 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 7: They were kind of open to and a lot of 102 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 7: the doctors who did the research didn't know they were 103 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 7: sort of doing it under the sponsorship of the CIA. 104 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 7: And they say, I called it a cutout, which I 105 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:19,919 Speaker 7: love that term. Instead of a front, we have we 106 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 7: have several cutouts that we can hide this behind. And 107 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:24,480 Speaker 7: we're going to hide this behind. The cutout known as 108 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 7: the Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology. 109 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: I love it. 110 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 6: What is that either? 111 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 7: Great? It's just such an important sounding like who doesn't. 112 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 6: Believe in that's real human ecology? 113 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 4: That's what they called it. 114 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 7: Yes, And well, I guess we can announce here for 115 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:44,160 Speaker 7: the first time that pretty soon we are going to 116 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 7: make available Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology t 117 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 7: shirts at our Control Group merchandise shop. So just stand 118 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 7: by for more details on that. But I just love 119 00:06:55,720 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 7: the idea of this, of this nonprofit organization and handing 120 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 7: out money to ambitious researchers. 121 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:07,280 Speaker 1: And there's a bit of an ego fee too, right, 122 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: It's like, we believe in your work. 123 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 3: Sounds kind of like Illumination Global Unlimited. 124 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 6: Perhaps, But it's funny. 125 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 7: This is why I feel so at home here, you know, 126 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 7: within the house, stuff works. Family is because Life with 127 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 7: the Driver's a documentary and I know that MK Ultra 128 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 7: has been a subject on stuff they don't want you 129 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 7: to know and other shows because you know, your audience 130 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 7: sort of relishes these secret histories of not always the 131 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 7: underbelly of what's going on in our society and government, 132 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 7: but just like being in the know of the things 133 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 7: that were not in your high school textbook. 134 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: Absolutely well said. So let's dive into your research process 135 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: as you were gathering material and documentation for the script 136 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: itself and for the story. What kind of stuff did 137 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: you find? Where did you look? 138 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 6: Mostly? 139 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 7: Well, the interesting is there's not much first generation information 140 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 7: about this stuff. The whole thing would have been secret 141 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 7: and forgotten were it not for the survival of I 142 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 7: think seven boxes of financial records receipts, and it was 143 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 7: from those documents that people were able to piece together 144 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 7: this history. But there are a number of great books 145 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 7: on the subject. As far as the CIA testing, there 146 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 7: is the Search for the Manchurian Candidate by John Marx. 147 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 7: And as far as the medical research, there's one person 148 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 7: in particular who I was, who is kind of the 149 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 7: unofficial inspiration for our main doctor in the control group. 150 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 7: And the real life doctor's name is Ewan Cameron, and 151 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:49,559 Speaker 7: he was a doctor in Quebec. He was the head 152 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 7: of the American Psychiatric Association. You know, you couldn't be 153 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 7: more highly regarded, But yet he was conducting these today 154 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 7: we might consider ethically questionable experiments in manipulation of the mind, 155 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 7: which I can't wait for us to start talking about 156 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 7: the details of those. But you know, the thing is, 157 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 7: when you read about all this stuff, it just doesn't 158 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 7: seem possible. It's outrageous, it's fascinating, but you can't really 159 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 7: imagine it actually happening. And so what I wanted to 160 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 7: do with the control group is sort of imagine what 161 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 7: would it be like to actually be subjected to something 162 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 7: we call psychic driving, which is where doctor Cameron would 163 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 7: he would often record it himself. He would a tape 164 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 7: which would play in a constant loop. You are not 165 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 7: being kind to others. You need to open up and 166 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 7: be more open with your emotions. You need to you know, 167 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 7: and just sort of a mantra or a reinforcement of 168 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 7: the kind of behavior the person should have. And so 169 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 7: that tape would play constantly, constantly, constantly in days at 170 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 7: a time, for days at a time in headphones, and 171 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 7: sometimes they would have it like a helmet where it's 172 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 7: wired so a person could get up and walk around. 173 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 7: And they even had speakers built into mattresses so that 174 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 7: when someone's asleep, you will be kind to others, you 175 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 7: will be more responsive to treatment. 176 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 6: So that's psychic driving. 177 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 4: Okay, So that psychic driving. Was it done on patients 178 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 4: in like a psychiatric word or where who was this 179 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 4: done to? 180 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 6: Yeah? And it wasn't. 181 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 7: That's the thing it was done to just like regular people. 182 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 7: There was a tendency to do a lot of this 183 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 7: more on women, and we of course address that. That's 184 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 7: a big part of what the control group is some 185 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 7: of that, I think is the ego of the doctor 186 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:47,439 Speaker 7: who if he's going to shape and sculpt a patient 187 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 7: Pygmalion style, he tends to want to do that more 188 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 7: with a woman than a man. But I think also 189 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 7: it feeds a lot into the fact that psychological issues 190 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 7: are have traditionally sort of been tilted towards women. Like 191 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 7: the best example was hysteria. That is something that, if 192 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 7: you take it by its original technical definition, has to do, 193 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 7: you know, with the reproductive organs of a woman, that 194 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 7: was the source from which the psychological problem emanated. Or 195 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 7: we think a lot about housewives in the fifties being 196 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 7: prescribed tranquilizers and for the men they would just you know, 197 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 7: have an extra martine at lunch. 198 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 6: That was their way of dealing with it. 199 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 7: So there has often been this focus on psychological problems 200 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:39,959 Speaker 7: on women, and so that sort of became an important 201 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 7: part of the control group as. 202 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 1: Well as an avenue of control. I think given the 203 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 1: misogyny that was institutionalized and still exists today, it seems 204 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: like in many cases, with the benefit of retrospect, weariable 205 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 1: as a society to look back and say, well, that 206 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: person wasn't mentally ill. They just did want to be 207 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 1: forced to marry that jerk. Yeah, you know, yeah, and 208 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,560 Speaker 1: this I think that's I think that's a powerful thing. 209 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 1: But the idea of psychic driving too, I don't want 210 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: us to lose that. At first, when you first hear it, 211 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:16,439 Speaker 1: it's easy to think, well, I'm familiar with that. I've 212 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 1: had a song stuck in my head before. How bad 213 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 1: can it be? You know, it can't be any worse 214 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: than desposito or something. But there are some other techniques 215 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 1: that doctor Cameron was using. Could you tell us a 216 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:34,679 Speaker 1: little bit about those, maybe starting with the sleep treatments. 217 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 7: So as part of the psychic driving, you would need 218 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 7: to have your mind sort of neutralized before the fresh 219 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,719 Speaker 7: messages these reinforcements are being allowed in your mind. They 220 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:48,679 Speaker 7: need to wipe the slate clean, and so they did 221 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 7: that a couple of different ways. But the cleaning process 222 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 7: was called depatterning, and that means fix the mind so 223 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 7: it no longer has a regular pattern of thought. 224 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:02,959 Speaker 6: It's open and neutral. And even people you know. 225 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 7: Had memory loss, long term memory loss, they could remember 226 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 7: what was happening to them now, but couldn't think back 227 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 7: into their past. That was the whole point, wipe the 228 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 7: slate clean so that we can replace it with the 229 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 7: fresh messages, with the psychic driving. So the one way 230 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:24,680 Speaker 7: they would do that is ect electroconvulsive therapy better known 231 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 7: today as shock treatment, doubled up with sleep therapy, where 232 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 7: they would tranquilize someone and have them sleep around the clock. 233 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 7: And you know, sleep is great, and to a certain degree, 234 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 7: shock therapy even now is considered of use when correctly applied. 235 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 7: But what they would do is give people shot treatment 236 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 7: multiple times in a single day, and according to one source, 237 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 7: six times the voltage or dosage at which it is 238 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 7: normally given. So it wasn't just like, you know, you're 239 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:03,679 Speaker 7: need a little mental tune up. It was an attempt 240 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 7: to really flatten the brain waves of the mind by 241 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 7: excessively delivering shot treatment and then rest so that the 242 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 7: body and the mind would just shut down and you'd 243 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 7: get woken up, fed more e CT and which puts 244 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 7: you right back to sleep, and then they would continue 245 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 7: to drip or the pills. I think someone was telling 246 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 7: me that phenobarbital is more commonly given as pills, so 247 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 7: that was I guess how they would keep you in 248 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 7: that deep sleep. 249 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: Wow, And how how effective was this at least the 250 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: deep patterning aspect. 251 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 6: You know, the like I said, people did you know? 252 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 7: After this all came out, a number of patients got 253 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 7: together and sued you and Cameron, claiming that they had 254 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 7: you know, erased their memories and you know, cross these 255 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 7: ethical barriers. So it certainly didn't seem to have the 256 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 7: curative effect that he was proclaiming it was going to have. 257 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 7: It didn't completely mess up people's minds the way say, 258 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 7: you know, uh, transorbital lobotomy might. So the effect it 259 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 7: was never proven to be especially effective either as a 260 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:31,479 Speaker 7: sort of a treatment for you know, general psychological difficulties, 261 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 7: and it certainly was never applied to the kind of 262 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 7: use that the CIA thought it might be valuable for. 263 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 7: So we'll never know if it was an effective way 264 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 7: of interrogating or brainwashing someone. And it doesn't seem to 265 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 7: have been an especially effective way of curing someone's mental ills. 266 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 4: And we'll learn more about that right after a quick 267 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 4: word from our sponsor. So you know, there is one 268 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 4: thing that perhaps didn't exactly come out of this, but 269 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 4: was utilized within the mk Ultra trials and specifically within 270 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 4: the world of the control group, which is confinement the 271 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 4: uh I don't want to give it away too much, 272 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 4: but the cages, because that's something that we do see 273 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 4: used in what we would I guess consider modern interrogation 274 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 4: techniques isolating someone not allowing them to sleep for long 275 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 4: periods of time, and we see some of that in 276 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 4: this story as well. 277 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 7: Yeah, and when we talk about the cages in the 278 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 7: in the podcast, it's a little bit of a fictionalization 279 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 7: just in terms of it's that it's true to the 280 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 7: spirit of what was going on. I mean, we had 281 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 7: a lot of sensory deprivation where someon would be kept 282 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 7: in the dark with something over their eyes and something 283 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 7: over their ears so they can't hear, and sometimes with 284 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 7: their hands inserted into something so they can't feel. 285 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 6: As it's sort of like a version of the sleep therapies. 286 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:06,919 Speaker 7: So to just see how long a person could exist 287 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:09,360 Speaker 7: in that state before their mind gets weakened and becomes 288 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 7: open to you know, better programming, I guess. And in 289 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 7: the podcast, the characters talk about how, you know, back 290 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 7: in the day when the section this ward was called 291 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:25,199 Speaker 7: the cages, people would just be left to wander and 292 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 7: sit in their own filth. 293 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,920 Speaker 6: I mean, that's very well documented from. 294 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 7: Like back in the nineteen thirties and forties, where you 295 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 7: would have wards of people naked, sitting in their own 296 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:42,439 Speaker 7: filth and just being given no treatment per se, a 297 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 7: condition that existed. I think, you know, there was a 298 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 7: lot of mental hospital reform in the nineteen fifties, so 299 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:54,199 Speaker 7: it was mostly cleaned up at that time. But you know, 300 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 7: so you have this this dichotomy between like excessive treatment 301 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,679 Speaker 7: and then no treatment where it's just a matter of 302 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,160 Speaker 7: pump some drugs and someone neutralized the symptoms. 303 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 6: And ultimately that's what all this kind of was about. 304 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 7: And if we talk a lot about some of the 305 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:14,880 Speaker 7: other medical visionaries who have done some pretty crazy things 306 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 7: over history, usually the justification for what they did was 307 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 7: that it eliminated the symptoms, but it didn't actually cure 308 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 7: the disease. My favorite, and I've thought about trying to 309 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 7: dramatize this guy's work somehow. It was a guy named 310 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,399 Speaker 7: Henry Cotton, and in the nineteen twenties he had a 311 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 7: big theory that mental illness and health problems was work 312 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 7: triggered by different kinds of infection, and. 313 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 1: It's like bacterial infection yeah, okay. 314 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 7: And chronic dental infection was one of the big ones 315 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:56,640 Speaker 7: because you know, they didn't have great dental care back 316 00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:00,400 Speaker 7: in the nineteen twenties, no fluoridation of water. And so 317 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 7: he would pull teeth and remove tonsils and he had 318 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 7: two sons and completely pulled all their teeth, adult teeth, 319 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:12,679 Speaker 7: oh wow, and gave people tons electomies the colon. You know, 320 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,400 Speaker 7: lots of bacteria in the colon. He would remove people's colons, 321 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 7: he would remove portions of their stomach, he would remove 322 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,880 Speaker 7: the spleens. So it was just all about taking out 323 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 7: anything that was a possible source of infection. 324 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 6: And it would be amazed at how, you. 325 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 7: Know, high highly regarded this guy was, and how high 326 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 7: up the professional ladder he was able to climb. He 327 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 7: became the superintendent of the Trenton State Hospital in New Jersey, 328 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 7: in New Jersey, and you know, eventually people kind of realized, Aha, well, 329 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 7: his numbers look good on paper, but all he's doing 330 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 7: is you know, removing a cause, you know, a potential cause. 331 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 7: He's getting rid of symptoms, but he's not actually treating 332 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 7: the illness. And usually in cases like that, what happens 333 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 7: is we don't do that anymore, and we don't talk 334 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 7: about that anymore. And so like lobotomies are another great example. 335 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 7: The botomies were considered so effective because they wiped out 336 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 7: the symptoms. 337 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:14,640 Speaker 3: To say, they don't do the bad stuff anymore. 338 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 6: Yeah, and so different of their part of. 339 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:19,399 Speaker 3: Their brain that makes them act like a human. 340 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 7: And part of it is the fact that you've you've 341 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,160 Speaker 7: physically changed them to not be able to do that anymore. 342 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:28,439 Speaker 7: And in the case of something like shock therapy, they 343 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,919 Speaker 7: change their behavior because they don't want more shock therapy. 344 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 7: Of course you're still not treating the cause, but you're 345 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 7: causing the symptom to go away, either medically or through 346 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 7: the fear instilled in them by well. 347 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 2: It's like that idea that torture isn't particularly effective and 348 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:48,159 Speaker 2: getting good confession. It's just effective at getting what you 349 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:50,399 Speaker 2: want to hear, or you'll get some kind of confession, some. 350 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 7: Amazing stories, and if you torture someone enough, they'll tell 351 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 7: you everything anything. 352 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 2: This guy you're talking about reminds me of like sort 353 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 2: of like a sick, twisted John Harvey Kellogg type almost 354 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 2: where he's like into all this like holistic stuff, but 355 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 2: he's treating this symptoms more than he is the actual illness, 356 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,119 Speaker 2: you know, enemas for everything, like yogurt enemas and all 357 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 2: this stuff. 358 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 7: It's a great guy because he's like the lighter side, yeah, right, 359 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:14,679 Speaker 7: the same kind of visionary and it's all about a 360 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:17,400 Speaker 7: good a good colon flor. 361 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 6: And we can kind of have fun with him. 362 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 7: But then when you get into someone who as a 363 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 7: little more barbaric in their treatments, but you know, it's 364 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 7: the same. It's two sides of the same coin. This 365 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 7: sort of visionary medicine that is not that grounded in 366 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 7: the science of the illness that's being treated well. 367 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 2: And this guy you're talking about, it sounds like he 368 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 2: kind of developed a bit of a god complex around 369 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,119 Speaker 2: it too. When you're unchecked and you can do this 370 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 2: stuff and you have this vision, you know, but no 371 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 2: one's stopping you, then of course you're just gonna push 372 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 2: it as far as you can, right. 373 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:55,439 Speaker 6: Yeah, And no one's stopping you. 374 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 7: And like in the case of you and Cameron, you're 375 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 7: being made the head of the American Psychiatric Association. 376 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 6: That's like total validation. I go take it further. 377 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,439 Speaker 7: And so well, back to the control group one of 378 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 7: the things I wanted to do is what would one 379 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 7: of these conversations be like with the Society for the 380 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 7: Investigation of Human Ecology, where they're coaxing in along and like, 381 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 7: maybe you should try pushing the envelope a little bit. 382 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 7: And because I wanted to, because the doctors who are 383 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 7: doing these things are not monsters. They're ambitious, and I 384 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 7: think they all have good intentions, even if they have 385 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 7: egos kind of running rampant, And it doesn't take a 386 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,159 Speaker 7: whole lot of encouragement to get someone to maybe cross 387 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 7: the threshold into something a little less ethical than they 388 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 7: might if they were not being fueled by so much 389 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:45,440 Speaker 7: encouragement and adoration. 390 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,640 Speaker 1: I think that's a really good point, because in the 391 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:55,199 Speaker 1: real world we see these sorts of situations coalescing in 392 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:59,719 Speaker 1: degrees of increments. It's not as if some shady person 393 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 1: from what was that phrase, Brett cutout comes to you, 394 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 1: comes to you and says, let's see how much LSD 395 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 1: we can pump into someone before we ruin their lives. 396 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:14,879 Speaker 1: We're going to just get like ten people and just 397 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,919 Speaker 1: take a spaghetti at the wall approach. You know that 398 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:21,360 Speaker 1: that's something that we ease into as people, and it's 399 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 1: very easy to rationalize those further steps, especially and I 400 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 1: think this is this even goes to the degree of 401 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 1: victimization that some of the medical professionals experience, which is 402 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,680 Speaker 1: much lower than the patients obviously, but there they're being 403 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 1: convinced that one must make certain sacrifices for the quote 404 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 1: unquote greater good. And we actually have a clip from 405 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 1: the control group that I think touches on this, right, Matt. 406 00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 4: Oh, yeah, this is this is great. This is from 407 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 4: episode four. The name is phenobarbital, and it's a discussion 408 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 4: between a character named Summer Hill and doctor Hayes, and 409 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:12,880 Speaker 4: they're discussing funding for the I guess the research that's 410 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 4: being done at the hospital, as well as what types 411 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 4: of things need to be done in order to continue 412 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 4: that funding of the research. 413 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 9: Get us a name. 414 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 6: Start with that. 415 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 9: It'll be a good measure of your progress. But if 416 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 9: you hold that a little longer, do the detective work. 417 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 9: Connect the dots. I'll try, but I can help wondering 418 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 9: whether or not we should be I'll stop thinking about 419 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:45,399 Speaker 9: should Should is a dirty word in research. Take yourself 420 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:50,479 Speaker 9: off the leash, doctor Hayes. Allow yourself to run you 421 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 9: have a hunch, follow it, got an inch, scratch it 422 00:24:54,280 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 9: and urge indulge it, and don't stop to ask whether 423 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 9: it's something you should be doing. If it gives you 424 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 9: a better understanding, that's all that matters. 425 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,400 Speaker 4: I love and detest this so much because it feels 426 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 4: too real to me, having this person from the outside 427 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,359 Speaker 4: group that controls the money that's going to fund the 428 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 4: research come in and say, well, you know, don't you 429 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 4: want to do something that's going to be different and beyond. 430 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 4: I mean, I know you're fifty, but you really got 431 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:29,399 Speaker 4: to think like a twenty six year old and push 432 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 4: things harder. But he never once says anything about you know, 433 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:35,920 Speaker 4: this is exactly what you need to do or anything 434 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,879 Speaker 4: like that. So he's got this weird plausible deniability with 435 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 4: him and his cutout. But at the same time he's 436 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 4: convincing this doctor to push himself ethically to the boundary 437 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 4: and perhaps beyond. And it makes me wonder just how 438 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 4: much of that is actually what occurred during the mk 439 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 4: Ultra trials, how much they were just pushing people without 440 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:02,439 Speaker 4: the CIA actually being the ones who are these dastardly 441 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 4: who come up with the dastardly ideas that we then 442 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 4: think about as being perhaps evil if you look back 443 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 4: with hindsight, it just makes me wonder if they're literally 444 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 4: just the pushers just getting the scientists to keep going 445 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 4: that extra mind right. 446 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:19,440 Speaker 7: I think, giving them the resources to keep going, giving 447 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 7: them the encouraging, you know, stroking the ego a little bit. 448 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 7: And then also you have to remember in the nineteen 449 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 7: fifties a couple of big things were happening at the time, 450 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:34,160 Speaker 7: and the biggest one is a Cold War. And even 451 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 7: though they didn't specifically talk about the applications of this 452 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 7: to you know, CIA activities, there was this sort of 453 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 7: attitude that certainly within the CIA that were behind in 454 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 7: the race with the Russians and the Chinese and the 455 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,639 Speaker 7: Koreans for mind control because they believed brainwashing was a 456 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:56,879 Speaker 7: real thing, and to some degree it is, but not 457 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:00,160 Speaker 7: everyone believed that it was going to be the thing 458 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 7: that was gonna You're gonna either transmit something to change 459 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,199 Speaker 7: the way people think, or put something in the water supply. 460 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 7: At one point, they wanted to put LSD in an 461 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 7: entire city's water supply just see what would happen, or 462 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 7: like have some kind of drug or tool. And it's 463 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 7: interesting the Americans. 464 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 6: As we are, we love gadgets. 465 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,640 Speaker 7: The Americans always wanted some kind of James Bondian type thing, 466 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,440 Speaker 7: whether it's a drug or a tool or a shot, 467 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 7: you know, you give someone rather than the more effective 468 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 7: means of mind control, which is to have a conversation 469 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:38,159 Speaker 7: with someone, earn their trust, let them talk and you know, 470 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 7: share your ideas and eventually get them to come around 471 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 7: to your way of thinking. That is the most effective 472 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:44,880 Speaker 7: means of mind control. 473 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:46,239 Speaker 6: But we don't have time for that. 474 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,199 Speaker 7: We want, you know, we want the magic bullet, we 475 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 7: want the the spy device. So there was almost like 476 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,479 Speaker 7: a sense of espionage to what was going on at 477 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:56,199 Speaker 7: the time that there was there was a race to 478 00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 7: find either the secret of brainwashing on the part of 479 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,159 Speaker 7: the CIA or with medical science, there's always like a 480 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 7: race to either find the cure or find the best treatment, 481 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 7: or be the person to break through the next threshold 482 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 7: of psychological medicine. And a lot of times there's this 483 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 7: attitude of yeah, well, you know, there are some ethical 484 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,919 Speaker 7: issues with this, but if we succeed, it's for the 485 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 7: greater good, So we're going to go ahead and do 486 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 7: the experiment. And you know that persists today. There's always 487 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 7: this sort of suggestion that if you break a few eggs, 488 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 7: that's fine, but as you know, think of the millions 489 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 7: of lives it's going to save if these test subjects 490 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 7: die for the sake of science. You know, there's so 491 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 7: many ways you can justify doing something unethical, so many 492 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 7: ways you can talk yourself into, you know, believing that 493 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 7: you're actually doing it for the greater good. The greater 494 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 7: good is one of those things that is always such 495 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 7: a When you hear that phrase, you have to be 496 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 7: very suspicious of it because when someone trucks it out, 497 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 7: someone's gonna get hurt. 498 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 2: Well, it's a power move, right, It's like I can 499 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 2: tell you what the greater good is because I have 500 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 2: the master plan. 501 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 3: I see the big picture, and you need to get 502 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 3: on board. 503 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 6: Yeah. 504 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: Our super producer Paul uses the phrase the greater good? 505 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 6: Is it okay? 506 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 4: I hope play Devil's advocating for a moment. Isn't there 507 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 4: a greater good overall for humanity in some way? And 508 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 4: this is just me Devil's advocating. 509 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 3: It's called God's plan. 510 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 4: Oh geez. But I'll be completely serious, Like there are 511 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 4: maybe things that humanity is going to face in our 512 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 4: not so distant future, choices we're gonna have to make sure. 513 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 4: They're gonna be really hard and are probably gonna end 514 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 4: up killing lots and lots of people. 515 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, but isn't the problem that it's like the people 516 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 2: in power, whether it's in like a an organization like 517 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 2: a psychiatric hospital or a government, that are usually the 518 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 2: ones that dictate the agenda of what that greater good is, 519 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 2: and they're typically looking out for their best interest or 520 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 2: the best interest of their cronies in some way, not 521 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 2: necessarily the greater greater good. It's more like this notion 522 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 2: of my it's my greater good. I don't know that's 523 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 2: why I see it. Maybe that's cynical, but. 524 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: I think you're right on. It's in that kind of situation, 525 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 1: it's very easy to define the greater good as the 526 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: things that are that make things that are good for 527 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 1: me greater. 528 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 2: I mean, I would describe it as the status quo 529 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 2: in many ways, you. 530 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 9: Know, sure. 531 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 6: Yeah. 532 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 1: And also there are differing definitions. I mean, I was 533 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 1: being a little bit lid, but there are differing definitions 534 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 1: For some people, as spiritual greater good is a world 535 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: in which one hundred percent of all living people follow 536 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 1: the same specific religion. In if we're looking at a 537 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 1: purely soulless biological imperative, then the greater good is one 538 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: in which no individuals matter. The human species just metastasizes 539 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 1: and eventually gets to the stars. Neither of those are 540 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: particularly great things for individuals. 541 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 4: Right, well, let me tell you about migrator good. 542 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 1: We're kidding, all right, So so we can see that motivation. 543 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 1: And I think Brett your words of warning are astute 544 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 1: and sorely needed, both in current age and in past ages. 545 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 1: But we don't want to lose some of the conversation 546 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 1: we were having about other mad scientists. Is it okay 547 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,479 Speaker 1: if we call the mad scientists, is that is that 548 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 1: out of bounds? Because they're not necessarily insane? Right, they're 549 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: just mad? Yeah, they're not that. 550 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 3: They're not always angry either, Okay, so perturbed scientists. 551 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 6: There we go. 552 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 1: Hold on one. Okay, so these these perturbed scientists, could 553 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 1: you tell us a little more. It sounds like you 554 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: may have found a rogues gallery of people that you 555 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 1: considered investigating further. 556 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 7: Well, you know, so we I talked about Henry Cotton, 557 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 7: and Walker Freeman is the person who really behind the lobotomy, 558 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 7: and I don't know that we need to add too 559 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 7: much to his legacy. Jean Mortin Charcout was a nineteenth 560 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 7: century scientist and his big thing was hysteria. And on 561 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:16,720 Speaker 7: the plus side, he was one of the first to 562 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,640 Speaker 7: say hysteria is not just a female malady. Men can 563 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 7: have symptoms of hysteria as well. But then he kind 564 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 7: of got the show business bug, not literally, but he 565 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 7: would have these demonstrations and invite people into the surgical 566 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 7: theater and have patients come out and perform for this 567 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 7: audience of medical dignitaries. And what would happen is women 568 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 7: who suffered from this particular brand of hysteria would have 569 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 7: seizures and contortions, and their bodies would twist into very 570 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 7: strange positions and then sometimes have something sort of called 571 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 7: an erotic extra see. And these became very popular among 572 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 7: the intelligencia and the medical community. And there's even one 573 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 7: woman named Blanche Whitman who became known as the Queen 574 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 7: of Hysterics because when she would perform, she could always 575 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 7: be relied upon to have the convulsions at the right 576 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 7: time and really exhibit her erotic ecstasy in a way 577 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 7: that was dramatic. So at a certain point, what are 578 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 7: we proving and studying anymore? But it's and again it's 579 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 7: it's women who were the ones put on exhibit. And 580 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 7: there's a very famous painting of Charcot holding Blanche Whitman 581 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 7: in front of an audience of men in this surgical environment. 582 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 6: But careful with the mad scientists thing, because. 583 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 7: I have a favorite doctor who, by a lot of 584 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 7: standards would be considered a mad doctor, but actually was 585 00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 7: a brilliant surgeon and contributed an awful lot to our 586 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 7: understanding of anatomy. And that's John Hunter, who was an 587 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 7: eighteenth century resurrectionist, and he was the first who really 588 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 7: championed anatomizing bodies, cutting open bodies to understand them that way. 589 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 7: This is when there was still a big taboo on it, 590 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 7: and you would only get a body if someone was 591 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,520 Speaker 7: hanged or executed. The surgeons could have their bodies and 592 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,080 Speaker 7: that became a big trade, and then eventually they started 593 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,720 Speaker 7: robbing graves to get the bodies so that the students 594 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:33,480 Speaker 7: would have any something to practice on. And when I 595 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:35,399 Speaker 7: first was reading about him, it was in a book 596 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,440 Speaker 7: a really sensational book about like the corpse robbers and 597 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 7: the grave robbers of the eighteenth century. But I read 598 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 7: a really amazing biography of this guy, and it totally 599 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 7: showed that he was breaking down these these sort of 600 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 7: notions we have that you can't cut open a human 601 00:34:53,120 --> 00:35:01,759 Speaker 7: body and that it's degrading to have your body, you. 602 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 1: Know, violated. 603 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:02,719 Speaker 6: Yeah, and that's what they would call it, right yeah. 604 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 7: And it was like when people be executed there, it 605 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,240 Speaker 7: would be a very frightening thing for them to realize 606 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:11,040 Speaker 7: that their body is going to be given to the 607 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,400 Speaker 7: school for the young surgeons to practice on. But he 608 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:18,759 Speaker 7: totally believed in it and anatomized so many bodies over 609 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 7: his lifetime and really broke that barrier and helped facilitate 610 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:27,320 Speaker 7: getting to the point where bodies were provided to medical 611 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,720 Speaker 7: school so that you could learn from the thing that's 612 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 7: gonna you know, you're going to actually be operating on. 613 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:35,879 Speaker 7: I'm going to tell you this anecdote, which you may 614 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:37,879 Speaker 7: want to cut out for sensitive listeners, or we should 615 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 7: just give a little trigger warning. 616 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 4: Go right ahead. 617 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 7: BRT one of my favorite stories of him, and it's shocking, 618 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,479 Speaker 7: but at the same time, it shows this guy John 619 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:52,319 Speaker 7: Hunter was so believed in what he was doing. You 620 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:54,440 Speaker 7: didn't have a lot of way of testing certain things, 621 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 7: and so he wanted to find out, like certain liquids in. 622 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 6: The body, how they've aged after death. 623 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 7: And so one of the great they quote it in 624 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 7: this book where he took the semen of a corpse 625 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:08,399 Speaker 7: and put it in his mouth and like. 626 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 6: Kind of switched it around, and. 627 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,440 Speaker 7: It was like, yep, it has a a a metallic 628 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,360 Speaker 7: brackish taste, and so you know, how else are you 629 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,040 Speaker 7: gonna like test things like that? But that just shows 630 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,759 Speaker 7: to him that the body it was not it had 631 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,920 Speaker 7: so been has been demystified for him. He just wanted 632 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:33,320 Speaker 7: to learn about the flesh and all of it's this 633 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 7: little glory exactly, and was willing to do everything to 634 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:37,839 Speaker 7: better understand it. 635 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 6: So, you know, on one hand, we have. 636 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:43,440 Speaker 7: Our scientists who are doing shocking things, but at the 637 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 7: same time, a lot of times, not always, it yields 638 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 7: knowledge and it leads to demystification and the loss of 639 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:57,280 Speaker 7: certain taboos that we have about the body. 640 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,439 Speaker 2: Hold on a second, guys, let's not go there quite yet. First, 641 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 2: Let's take a quick sponsor break. 642 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 4: You know, that's something we've discussed on the show numerous times. 643 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:16,600 Speaker 4: What do you do with research that's gained from human 644 00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:20,759 Speaker 4: experimentation over the years, like Unit seven thirty one or 645 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 4: some of the things that the Nazi Party was doing. 646 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,560 Speaker 4: What do you do with the because there is there's information, 647 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:32,760 Speaker 4: raw data that is collected there about the horrible things 648 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:37,400 Speaker 4: a human can endure. And we kind of had a 649 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:39,520 Speaker 4: discussion last time, like do you just throw that away? 650 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,040 Speaker 4: Do you keep it locked away somewhere? Do you actually 651 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,920 Speaker 4: use it towards medical research in the future. What do 652 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 4: you think, Brett, what should we do with all this stuff? 653 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 7: I mean, once the deed is done, you certainly have 654 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,279 Speaker 7: to try to gain from the knowledge it provided, as 655 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 7: long as you're not encouraging further, you know, an ethical experimentation. 656 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:03,440 Speaker 7: But do you think there are things still going on? 657 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:05,440 Speaker 7: And I wanted to try to suggest this with a 658 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,200 Speaker 7: control group, that we look back on the horrors of 659 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:10,920 Speaker 7: the mid nineteen fifties, and people in the mid nineteen 660 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:12,880 Speaker 7: fifties look back on the horror of the turn of 661 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,359 Speaker 7: the century, and so on and so on and so on. 662 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 7: Do you sort of feel like, what's the horror that 663 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,440 Speaker 7: people are going to look at us fifty years from 664 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:23,760 Speaker 7: now and sort of realize they. 665 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:29,319 Speaker 1: Did what Absolutely, And it's fantastic that you bring this up. Well, 666 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:33,319 Speaker 1: tragic and disturbing, but also fantastic because that's one of 667 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 1: the questions that we had for you. And it's sort 668 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:41,520 Speaker 1: of a two part question. So the first is what 669 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 1: do you see as the importance or the the crucial 670 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:51,839 Speaker 1: relevance of a work like the control group in the 671 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:53,280 Speaker 1: modern age? 672 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:54,240 Speaker 3: And that's. 673 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:57,680 Speaker 1: A big question to throw answer one. But then the 674 00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,360 Speaker 1: second part is exactly what you were asking us, do 675 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:04,280 Speaker 1: you think it is possible that there is experimentation occurring 676 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 1: today that will later be looked at with opprobrium by 677 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 1: future historians. Were trying to make a list, and I 678 00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,040 Speaker 1: was thinking, you know, one of the big disadvantages is 679 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:19,400 Speaker 1: that a lot of that stuff, if it is occurring, 680 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:25,040 Speaker 1: will be classified. Right, so we only found out about 681 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:28,880 Speaker 1: things like psychic driving, where as you said, seven boxes 682 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:33,560 Speaker 1: escaped a purge. Yeah, you know, And what do we 683 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:37,360 Speaker 1: know now? We know that there are some pretty boundary 684 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:41,600 Speaker 1: violating experiments with big data, right, that might be something, 685 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:46,600 Speaker 1: But as far as suppressed medical experimentation, I don't know. 686 00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:47,560 Speaker 1: I couldn't conjecture. 687 00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:49,520 Speaker 7: You know, I was thinking about this, and again I 688 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:53,840 Speaker 7: think it's and it's part of that double edged sword 689 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,680 Speaker 7: of while we judge the past, we shouldn't judge the 690 00:39:56,719 --> 00:40:02,239 Speaker 7: past too harshly because a lot of times this was 691 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:06,440 Speaker 7: the best they had and so they were sincerely desperately 692 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:10,200 Speaker 7: trying to deal with certain illnesses. And we may not 693 00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:12,840 Speaker 7: agree with the way they treated it, but they were 694 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:16,560 Speaker 7: desperate and there were no other ways of really treating it. 695 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:21,560 Speaker 7: And it's kind of you know, I sort of feel 696 00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,000 Speaker 7: horrible bringing it up, but when you think about something 697 00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:29,600 Speaker 7: like chemotherapy, it's all we got right now. It's it 698 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:31,879 Speaker 7: is the thing that is we're one of the things 699 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:34,799 Speaker 7: that is the most effective in treating cancer. You know, 700 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,640 Speaker 7: fifty years from now when we look if someone looks back, 701 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,279 Speaker 7: they're going to say, you did what you you know, 702 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:44,000 Speaker 7: you put radioactive material in someone's body so that the 703 00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:48,600 Speaker 7: body would kind of, you know, fight and kill some 704 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:50,759 Speaker 7: portion of something that's growing inside it. 705 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:52,799 Speaker 6: But it worked. It was what. 706 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,319 Speaker 7: We were able to do with the technology we have. 707 00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:00,600 Speaker 7: So I'm not by that saying that can therapy is 708 00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:02,360 Speaker 7: bad and radiation therapy is bad. 709 00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:02,359 Speaker 9: But. 710 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:08,040 Speaker 7: You know, don't judge. Hopefully we won't be judged harshly 711 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,120 Speaker 7: because it's it is the best. We're doing the best 712 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,200 Speaker 7: we can, and we have to cut some slack to the. 713 00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:14,160 Speaker 6: People who were. 714 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:17,480 Speaker 7: You know, it's hard to say that cut slack to 715 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:21,279 Speaker 7: people who are performing lobotomies and you know, excessive shock 716 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:23,920 Speaker 7: treatment and things in the past. I don't think it 717 00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:30,279 Speaker 7: was malicious and it was the best they had in 718 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,480 Speaker 7: treating these things. And fortunately things have gotten a lot better. 719 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,640 Speaker 7: So the treatments we're using today, we know are more 720 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:39,719 Speaker 7: effective and they're focused and they're specific. But at the 721 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:43,040 Speaker 7: same time, technology is going to reach a point to 722 00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:47,360 Speaker 7: where they have genetic modification and these diseases just disappear, 723 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:49,719 Speaker 7: and they're going to look back and say, well, why 724 00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 7: didn't y'all do that? And you know, we're going to 725 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:56,200 Speaker 7: be the people who were, you know, putting people in 726 00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:56,960 Speaker 7: iron lungs. 727 00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:00,839 Speaker 6: Basically, we didn't have the cure. This was what we had. 728 00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:04,399 Speaker 7: So you know, it's a certain amount of tolerance for 729 00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:08,040 Speaker 7: the quote unquote mad scientists of the past is called for. 730 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:10,440 Speaker 1: I think well said. 731 00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:12,719 Speaker 3: Yeah, it really answers the question that you brought up to. 732 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,680 Speaker 2: Man, it's like, what do we do with this research, 733 00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:21,319 Speaker 2: and sometimes the means justify, not justify the ends, but 734 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,600 Speaker 2: at least you can accept the results as like something 735 00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:28,279 Speaker 2: of value, even in retrospect. I don't know. 736 00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:29,799 Speaker 3: It's hard, It's really hard. 737 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,240 Speaker 1: How do we make it not a total loss right. 738 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:35,759 Speaker 2: Almost to like honor the people that were subjected to 739 00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:38,120 Speaker 2: this stuff. It's like, you don't what do you just, 740 00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:42,040 Speaker 2: out of like pure ethical kind of panicky outcry toss 741 00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:46,400 Speaker 2: out positive results from these experiments that seems counterproductive and 742 00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:49,600 Speaker 2: almost disrespectful to those who may have lost their lives 743 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:51,840 Speaker 2: or been damaged in these kinds of experiments. 744 00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:54,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going to be a little bit conspiratorial and this, 745 00:42:55,200 --> 00:43:00,040 Speaker 1: and this is just my opinion. I would absolutely be 746 00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:05,239 Speaker 1: unsurprised if it turned out that there were unethical and 747 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:11,960 Speaker 1: indeed illegal experiments being conducted through some tenuous, tenuously attached 748 00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:15,800 Speaker 1: form of government funding. Because one thing that's really interesting 749 00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:19,400 Speaker 1: about Ewen Cameron that we missed. I believe we mentioned it, 750 00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:22,040 Speaker 1: but I don't think we emphasized it enough. He was 751 00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:27,520 Speaker 1: from Quebec. These experiments that he was conducting occurred in Canada. 752 00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:32,000 Speaker 1: So in this case, the CIA and the various cutouts 753 00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:38,920 Speaker 1: were not funding experimentation domestically. It happened abroad. So if 754 00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:43,040 Speaker 1: something like this is happening in our current world, it 755 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:46,880 Speaker 1: is probably happening somewhere where law enforcement or rule of 756 00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:49,840 Speaker 1: laws a little more lax, a little weaker. But I 757 00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:53,400 Speaker 1: feel like, just with all the medical breakthroughs that are 758 00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:57,320 Speaker 1: occurring or on the cusp of occurring, it is less 759 00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:01,560 Speaker 1: plausible that something like that is not happening, which I 760 00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:04,120 Speaker 1: know sounds like maybe I'm a little tinfoil on this one. 761 00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,759 Speaker 7: No, because there's a sort of a suggestion of that 762 00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:13,600 Speaker 7: ends reading accounts of the CIA activities. There's a thing 763 00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:16,000 Speaker 7: which comes up and we talk about it in episode 764 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:20,480 Speaker 7: ten called terminal studies, and that's where you conduct an 765 00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:25,000 Speaker 7: experiment on someone to the point of no return. And 766 00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:29,440 Speaker 7: there's no evidence that any terminal studies were performed in 767 00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:33,600 Speaker 7: the United States, but at least one source sort of says, well, 768 00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:38,120 Speaker 7: but some studies were performed in other countries on people 769 00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:40,799 Speaker 7: who are not Americans, like prisoners of war, and we 770 00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:44,439 Speaker 7: don't know what happened there, And so there's I wouldn't say, 771 00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:47,040 Speaker 7: you know, a good chance. I would just say that 772 00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:52,920 Speaker 7: it's entirely plausible that terminal studies were performed on and again, 773 00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:54,399 Speaker 7: this is like the Korean War. 774 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:55,239 Speaker 6: This is war. 775 00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:59,319 Speaker 7: We're losing or we're behind in the race for the 776 00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:03,000 Speaker 7: control of the human mind, and it calls for, you know, 777 00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:04,880 Speaker 7: desperate measures. 778 00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:08,680 Speaker 4: I would just say, with the number of destabilized nations 779 00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:12,279 Speaker 4: right now across the globe, it makes me wonder if 780 00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:15,080 Speaker 4: there isn't some kind of this is conspiratorial, but some 781 00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:19,600 Speaker 4: kind of smaller operation that's still studying interrogation techniques out 782 00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:22,359 Speaker 4: there in black sites. Sure, I mean, they're just so 783 00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:25,480 Speaker 4: there's so many places where it could be happening, where 784 00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:28,520 Speaker 4: there is a even a small CIA footprint. 785 00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:30,880 Speaker 6: Yeah. 786 00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:33,879 Speaker 1: Well, on that note, we did get to the present day. 787 00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:36,800 Speaker 6: Yeah, in a very scary way. 788 00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:41,200 Speaker 1: We hope that you do not consider this show a 789 00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:45,640 Speaker 1: form of mind control, because it's just that it hit 790 00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:48,960 Speaker 1: me when you were describing this, Brett, you said, you said, 791 00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:52,880 Speaker 1: you know, the real form of brainwashing and mind controlling 792 00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:55,520 Speaker 1: is just hanging out and talking with people, yeah, and 793 00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:57,480 Speaker 1: getting them over on your side. And it hit me 794 00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:02,200 Speaker 1: I thought, oh, no, have we acts deadly become Brett Brett. 795 00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:06,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, Brett has a very disarming smile, and it does 796 00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:08,160 Speaker 4: make me a little nervous. 797 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,000 Speaker 1: But we do want to We do want to thank 798 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:14,200 Speaker 1: you so much for taking the time to come on 799 00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:16,399 Speaker 1: the show today and teach us a little bit more 800 00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:22,080 Speaker 1: about the real world inspirations behind the Control Group, which 801 00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:26,040 Speaker 1: when you check out the show does sound like there's 802 00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:28,800 Speaker 1: no way it could have really happened, but it's presented 803 00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:32,360 Speaker 1: in a very plausible escalation because it did happen. 804 00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:36,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, and just to make sure, Ronald Grant is that 805 00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:37,080 Speaker 4: Frank Olsen. 806 00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:43,040 Speaker 7: It sort of is Frank Olsen, except Frank Olsen did 807 00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:46,520 Speaker 7: not die under the same circumstances in which there are 808 00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:50,000 Speaker 7: a number of parallels between the Control Group and the 809 00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:52,279 Speaker 7: real life counterparts. So if you're a real fan, you 810 00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:57,479 Speaker 7: know that Morgan Hall is the alias of George White, 811 00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:01,239 Speaker 7: who's the notorious former Bureau of Narcotic agent who's in 812 00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:05,279 Speaker 7: charge of these safe houses where Operation Midnight, Climax and 813 00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:08,799 Speaker 7: other things went on. So there's there's lots of sort 814 00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:13,279 Speaker 7: of easter eggs for people who are fans of this 815 00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:14,280 Speaker 7: kind of information. 816 00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:19,640 Speaker 4: We left a lot of things unsaid in one particular exactly, 817 00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:20,640 Speaker 4: I just want to put that out of there. We 818 00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:21,360 Speaker 4: don't want to spoil it. 819 00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:21,839 Speaker 6: There. 820 00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:24,759 Speaker 4: This is an interesting thing you could do right now. 821 00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:27,560 Speaker 4: I'm gonna do this after we conclude this show. I'm 822 00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:29,440 Speaker 4: gonna go back and listen to the mk Ultra. 823 00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:30,439 Speaker 6: Episode that we did. 824 00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:34,200 Speaker 4: Then I'm going to go and finish episode six because 825 00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:36,839 Speaker 4: that's the one I'm currently on in the control group, 826 00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:39,040 Speaker 4: and I'm going to see where all those parallels are 827 00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:42,160 Speaker 4: because it's I can see it already up until this point. 828 00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:45,200 Speaker 4: But episode nine is midnight climax, so I want to 829 00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:46,640 Speaker 4: really want to listen to that one. 830 00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:51,799 Speaker 1: And thank you, of course, folks for tuning in. We 831 00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:55,040 Speaker 1: would love to hear your stories or accounts, and this 832 00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:57,279 Speaker 1: might be opening a little bit of a risky door, 833 00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:00,320 Speaker 1: but if you have knowledge of what you can sysidered 834 00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:04,320 Speaker 1: to be an ethical or illegal human experimentation occurring in 835 00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:07,479 Speaker 1: modern day, or if you know of something that did 836 00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:10,440 Speaker 1: happen and has not yet reached the public sphere for 837 00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:13,799 Speaker 1: one reason or another, contact us. We would like to 838 00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:14,839 Speaker 1: hear from you. 839 00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:16,960 Speaker 2: You can write to us on social media. Get the Facebook, 840 00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:20,719 Speaker 2: Got the Instagram. We are conspiracy stuff show on Instagram, 841 00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:24,400 Speaker 2: Conspiracy stuff on Facebook and Twitter? 842 00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:26,360 Speaker 6: Right mean? All right? Coolah? 843 00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:28,080 Speaker 2: And you know there's another way to get to us too, 844 00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:29,759 Speaker 2: but we'll hold off on that for a second. We 845 00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:31,479 Speaker 2: want to find out first a little bit more about 846 00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:31,960 Speaker 2: our guest. 847 00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:35,040 Speaker 4: That's right, Brett. Where can we listen to the Control 848 00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:37,520 Speaker 4: Group and learn more about you and your films and 849 00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:38,440 Speaker 4: all of that stuff. 850 00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:41,560 Speaker 7: We can find the Control Group at Apple Podcasts and 851 00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:45,000 Speaker 7: all major podcast platforms, and we have a site which 852 00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:49,640 Speaker 7: is a Control Group dot show. And as far as me, 853 00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:54,640 Speaker 7: I'm on the Internet Movie Database and I don't maintain 854 00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:58,360 Speaker 7: like a regular profile type page, but. 855 00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:01,920 Speaker 6: I try to stay in the social medias as much 856 00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:02,439 Speaker 6: as I can. 857 00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:07,520 Speaker 1: And you can also find the Control Group social media 858 00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:11,320 Speaker 1: on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter if you want to interact 859 00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:15,000 Speaker 1: directly with the show. There's some really cool visual aspects 860 00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:20,000 Speaker 1: to it that I think are definitely worth the digital trip. 861 00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:22,680 Speaker 7: And all the films that I've made, including The Unwanted 862 00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:25,960 Speaker 7: and of course Hell's Highway, are available on DVD from 863 00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:26,800 Speaker 7: Keno Larber. 864 00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:29,760 Speaker 4: So get out there right now. You can go ahead 865 00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:32,319 Speaker 4: and no, don't pause this yet, let it finish, but 866 00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:34,720 Speaker 4: then subscribe to the Control Group and then start listening 867 00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:38,319 Speaker 4: to those episodes right after this. And that's the end 868 00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:41,799 Speaker 4: of this classic episode. If you have any thoughts or 869 00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:45,719 Speaker 4: questions about this episode. You can get into contact with 870 00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:47,880 Speaker 4: us in a number of different ways. One of the 871 00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:49,759 Speaker 4: best is to give us a call. Our number is 872 00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:54,400 Speaker 4: one eight three three STDWYTK. If you don't want to 873 00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:57,040 Speaker 4: do that, you can send us a good old fashioned email. 874 00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:59,680 Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio. 875 00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:03,640 Speaker 4: Stuff they Don't want you to Know is a production 876 00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:08,279 Speaker 4: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 877 00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:11,240 Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.