WEBVTT - #594 Jason Flom with Greg Bright 0:00:00.790 --> 0:00:03.810 We first heard the harrowing and ultimately triumphant story of 0:00:03.870 --> 0:00:06.170 my friend Greg Bright when he told it to my 0:00:06.210 --> 0:00:10.389 fellow wrongful conviction host, Lauren Bright Pacheco. Greg spent almost 0:00:10.390 --> 0:00:12.810 28 years in Angola prison for a murder he had 0:00:12.860 --> 0:00:15.640 nothing to do with, came out at 50 years old 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:21.099 in 2003. Now, Greg's story is important because keep in mind, 0:00:21.140 --> 0:00:24.800 Louisiana caps compensation for wrongful imprisonment at $ 400, 000 or $ 40, 000 0:00:24.700 --> 0:00:30.420 a year for 10 years. barely enough to stay alive. 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:33.159 Greg has now hit that cap and the payments have stopped. 0:00:33.520 --> 0:00:38.520 So even though he spent almost three decades wrongfully imprisoned 0:00:38.900 --> 0:00:41.380 and lost the most important earning years of his life, 0:00:42.750 --> 0:00:47.490 that's all he gets. But earlier this year, Louisiana lawmakers 0:00:47.710 --> 0:00:51.830 actually unanimously agreed on something. They unanimously passed a bill 0:00:51.850 --> 0:00:54.200 that would have raised the cap from $ 400, 000 to $ 600, 000 0:00:54.080 --> 0:00:55.400 and extended the compensation from 10 years to 15. But 0:00:58.740 --> 0:01:02.020 Governor Jeff Landry vetoed it. So think about that. The 0:01:02.060 --> 0:01:05.110 state takes 27 and a half years from a factually 0:01:05.150 --> 0:01:08.530 innocent man. He proves that he was innocent. Fights like hell. 0:01:08.910 --> 0:01:11.910 And then the state says, eh, this is all it's worth. 0:01:12.730 --> 0:01:15.950 Take your $ 400, 000 over 10 years and get lost, basically. 0:01:15.990 --> 0:01:19.520 So now Greg is 70 years old and facing an 0:01:19.670 --> 0:01:21.860 awful decision, which is that he may have to sell 0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:25.420 his humble home just to be able to afford to 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:29.819 pay his bills. His story is one I'll never forget. 0:01:29.940 --> 0:01:32.240 We'll never forget. And once you hear it, you'll never 0:01:32.319 --> 0:01:35.910 forget it. I promise. Check it out. Here is his 0:01:35.970 --> 0:01:38.010 interview with Lauren Bright Pacheco. 0:01:44.670 --> 0:01:48.390 Tens of thousands of people incarcerated in the U.S. have 0:01:48.430 --> 0:01:51.650 been wrongfully convicted and are being held in captivity for 0:01:51.730 --> 0:01:56.200 crimes even as they adamantly maintain their innocence. What's it 0:01:56.320 --> 0:01:59.170 like to be one of those imprisoned people? And what's 0:01:59.210 --> 0:02:02.480 it like to be their ally, the one outside committed 0:02:02.520 --> 0:02:06.040 to fighting for their freedom? I'm Lauren Bright Pacheco, and 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:18.530 this is Wrongful Conviction. Early on in October morning in 1975, 0:02:18.530 --> 0:02:21.790 a 15-year-old named Elliot Porter was shot and killed in 0:02:21.830 --> 0:02:26.410 a housing project in New Orleans, Louisiana. 20-year-old Gregory Bright, 0:02:26.820 --> 0:02:30.560 along with a 17-year-old co-defendant, someone he'd never met before, 0:02:30.620 --> 0:02:34.130 by the way, became suspects after a known drug addict 0:02:34.330 --> 0:02:38.429 turned state's witness implicated them in a crime in exchange 0:02:38.490 --> 0:02:42.970 for reward money. Arrested and charged with second-degree murder, Gregory 0:02:43.010 --> 0:02:46.400 and his co-defendant's trial would last for just one day, 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:50.880 and the jury deliberated for all of 13 minutes before 0:02:50.940 --> 0:02:54.160 convicting them. They were sentenced to life without the possibility 0:02:54.180 --> 0:02:59.180 of parole. in Louisiana State Penitentiary at Angola. Though Gregory 0:02:59.220 --> 0:03:02.080 Bright was illiterate when he entered prison, he taught himself 0:03:02.139 --> 0:03:06.079 to read, then taught himself the law, getting his appeals 0:03:06.460 --> 0:03:09.549 all the way to the state Supreme Court before the 0:03:09.790 --> 0:03:13.549 Innocence Project of New Orleans stepped in. Ultimately, he would 0:03:13.590 --> 0:03:16.669 spend 27 and a half years in prison for a 0:03:16.710 --> 0:03:20.970 crime he did not commit. Today, Bright is an accomplished 0:03:21.130 --> 0:03:25.140 actor who's appeared in 12 Years a Slave, American Horror Story, 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:29.650 and Treme. He is also the focus of an incredible 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:33.690 one-man documentary stage play based entirely on his words and 0:03:33.730 --> 0:03:38.590 recollections titled Never Fight a Shark in Water, The Wrongful 0:03:38.630 --> 0:03:43.340 Conviction of Gregory Bright, which explores so many aspects of 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:47.740 this staggering injustice. It was written by New Orleans-based writer 0:03:47.980 --> 0:03:52.230 Lara Naughton, who is also a teacher and compassion trainer, 0:03:52.470 --> 0:03:56.650 and survivor of a violent crime. Lara and Greg have 0:03:56.810 --> 0:04:02.170 forged a mutually supportive healing friendship and bond, and they 0:04:02.250 --> 0:04:06.330 are joining us today. I am so excited for this conversation. 0:04:06.870 --> 0:04:08.950 Welcome both of you to Wrongful Conviction. 0:04:09.770 --> 0:04:10.650 Thank you so much. 0:04:11.050 --> 0:04:12.350 Thank you. It's great to be here. 0:04:12.530 --> 0:04:15.660 Greg, I wanted to start with you. Can you just 0:04:15.820 --> 0:04:20.150 take me back before all of this unfolded What was 0:04:20.170 --> 0:04:21.190 your childhood like? 0:04:22.470 --> 0:04:25.550 I had come from a small family. It was me, 0:04:25.630 --> 0:04:31.210 my mom, my two sisters, and my stepfather. We did 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:33.800 a lot of things as a family. We went to 0:04:34.380 --> 0:04:37.300 the movie theater, sat at home and played cards and 0:04:37.460 --> 0:04:40.400 stuff like that. Average stuff. 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:43.360 And you had a lot of responsibility placed on you 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:46.500 as well because you dropped out of school in sixth 0:04:46.540 --> 0:04:48.460 grade to care for your stepfather. 0:04:49.029 --> 0:04:52.790 Absolutely, you know, and it was really a tough time 0:04:52.810 --> 0:04:54.770 for me, you know, to be a kid, you know, 0:04:54.770 --> 0:04:59.300 13 years old, having the full responsibility to care for 0:04:59.320 --> 0:05:03.979 a grown adult. It often had me wondering, you know, 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:07.219 what my life would turn into at that point. 0:05:07.420 --> 0:05:12.440 You're obviously a very creative man. Did you have hopes 0:05:12.500 --> 0:05:16.210 and aspirations when you were a child in terms of 0:05:16.310 --> 0:05:17.770 what you wanted to be when you grew up? 0:05:18.190 --> 0:05:21.159 Well, I was attracted to music and stuff, and I 0:05:21.180 --> 0:05:26.620 had several instruments, a guitar, bongo drums, and conga drums. 0:05:26.779 --> 0:05:30.880 I'd sit around when I'd get spare time and tinker 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:34.159 around with this stuff. So I always imagined myself as 0:05:34.220 --> 0:05:37.820 being some type of musician or something like that, because 0:05:37.860 --> 0:05:41.140 I was always making noise or picking on the guitars. 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:46.350 But I had never actually settled into music. what I 0:05:46.390 --> 0:05:48.670 wanted to become or what I wanted to do. I 0:05:48.710 --> 0:05:52.790 just enjoyed the freedom that I suddenly had after my 0:05:52.830 --> 0:05:56.589 stepfather passed. I was just relieved of the burden of 0:05:56.670 --> 0:05:57.370 caring for him. 0:05:57.910 --> 0:05:59.530 How old were you when he passed? 0:06:00.010 --> 0:06:01.600 I was 15 when he passed. 0:06:01.830 --> 0:06:05.040 You know, at that point, I had been out of school, well, 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:09.240 off and on since I was 13. And being tall 0:06:09.300 --> 0:06:11.620 and statured, I always felt out of place among the 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:12.679 kids in my. 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:13.580 Classes and stuff. 0:06:13.620 --> 0:06:16.470 But the The most important part, I think, of the 0:06:16.510 --> 0:06:20.070 experience of caring for my stepfather was the fact that 0:06:20.110 --> 0:06:22.820 he would often call me to read the Lord's Scripture. 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:26.400 Because that was his way of trying to make sure 0:06:26.420 --> 0:06:29.179 that I stayed on top of reading and stuff or whatever. 0:06:29.779 --> 0:06:32.860 It helped me while I was in jail. It disciplined 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:35.610 me to want to get into the books and study. 0:06:36.050 --> 0:06:37.450 It all came full circle. 0:06:38.110 --> 0:06:43.029 It's interesting that you experienced all this new freedom. at 0:06:43.070 --> 0:06:48.510 the age of 15, because that probably made what happened 0:06:48.620 --> 0:06:53.260 when you were just 20 that much more painful. So 0:06:53.300 --> 0:06:56.779 before we even get into that, you had a very 0:06:56.839 --> 0:06:59.799 close relationship with your mom. 0:07:00.980 --> 0:07:02.679 Absolutely. Yeah. 0:07:03.240 --> 0:07:06.080 My mom was someone that I could turn to in 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:09.940 any crisis, any bad experience, I could turn to her and. 0:07:09.900 --> 0:07:12.500 She would seem to have the words. 0:07:12.810 --> 0:07:15.870 She would say just the right things that would put 0:07:15.930 --> 0:07:19.590 me back and allow me to focus or concentrate. And 0:07:20.250 --> 0:07:24.370 she was just a wonderful lady, someone that I had 0:07:24.430 --> 0:07:27.430 missed tremendously after she had passed. 0:07:28.470 --> 0:07:32.790 And I know that you and Laura definitely incorporated her 0:07:32.930 --> 0:07:35.800 wisdom into the one-man show as well, because I. 0:07:39.540 --> 0:07:42.000 Feel like I got to know your mom a bit 0:07:42.080 --> 0:07:45.820 through the advice that she offered you throughout the years, 0:07:45.900 --> 0:07:51.850 which was always very powerful. Take me to that evening 0:07:51.870 --> 0:07:55.970 that changed everything for you when you were just 20. 0:07:55.970 --> 0:07:56.990 How did that unfold? 0:07:57.590 --> 0:07:59.230 You're speaking about the arrest. 0:08:00.110 --> 0:08:03.710 This particular Saturday morning, I'm laying on the sofa asleep, 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:06.500 and all of a sudden I hear banging on the door. 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:07.360 Bam! 0:08:08.100 --> 0:08:10.400 And I get up, I look through the door, I 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:14.240 see a flashlight, see someone shine the flashlight on the 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:18.390 porch outside. And, you know, I was hesitant to open 0:08:18.410 --> 0:08:21.550 the door because really, it took me out of my sleep. 0:08:21.610 --> 0:08:23.750 I thought it was knocking next door. They had an 0:08:23.770 --> 0:08:27.940 apartment just less than a foot away. The doors were parallel. 0:08:28.570 --> 0:08:31.360 And my mom came downstairs after all the banging. She 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:34.860 asked me, who was that banging on the door? You know, 0:08:34.880 --> 0:08:37.000 I said, I don't know. My mom said, I it 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:39.560 might be the police, you know, because I see flashlights 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:41.950 and something. He said, look, open the door up, you know, 0:08:41.970 --> 0:08:45.030 and see what they talking about. So I opened the 0:08:45.070 --> 0:08:47.970 door up, showed up, there was two police officers, you know, 0:08:48.010 --> 0:08:51.290 and they asked me, did Gregory Bright live there? I said, yeah, 0:08:51.309 --> 0:08:53.250 that's me. So one of the guys said they had 0:08:53.309 --> 0:08:55.880 a warrant for my arrest. I said, warrant for my arrest? 0:08:56.420 --> 0:08:56.960 He said, yeah. 0:08:56.980 --> 0:09:00.760 I said, your name had come up in our investigation 0:09:01.700 --> 0:09:05.580 involving this murder of the 15-year-old Elliot Porter. 0:09:06.320 --> 0:09:07.219 I said, murder? 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:09.860 I said, I don't even know Elliot Porter, you know. 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:12.560 So the guy says, well, look, we're just going to 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:16.160 bring you downtown and ask you some questions. So they 0:09:16.380 --> 0:09:20.859 brought me downtown, back at Tulane and Broad. They interrogated 0:09:20.920 --> 0:09:24.520 me for maybe an hour and a half, asking me 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:28.900 about people that I didn't know. But I was arrested. 0:09:29.059 --> 0:09:32.719 They brought me over to Orleans Parish Prison. And that's 0:09:32.780 --> 0:09:35.400 where I learned I had a co-defendant. 0:09:36.580 --> 0:09:39.339 It's just so staggering because you had never had any 0:09:39.420 --> 0:09:41.590 issues with the law before. 0:09:41.610 --> 0:09:41.670 No. 0:09:42.590 --> 0:09:49.750 And you mentioned in the play that your mother's attitude was, sure, 0:09:49.750 --> 0:09:53.210 my son will go down with you. He didn't kill anybody. 0:09:53.210 --> 0:09:54.510 Right, absolutely. 0:09:54.510 --> 0:09:57.929 You know, she just knew in her heart and her 0:09:58.010 --> 0:10:03.510 soul immediately that didn't fit the son that she had raised. 0:10:04.230 --> 0:10:07.270 And the only time you had ever been to the 0:10:07.309 --> 0:10:11.960 New Orleans Parish Prison was to visit a friend. You 0:10:12.179 --> 0:10:16.300 describe it so eloquently in your show, which I would 0:10:16.340 --> 0:10:19.500 love to play a little excerpt from. But if you 0:10:19.590 --> 0:10:23.950 can just describe as well what that place was like 0:10:24.350 --> 0:10:28.589 and how it overwhelmed your senses even before you were 0:10:28.650 --> 0:10:31.790 taken there as a prisoner just visiting there. 0:10:32.700 --> 0:10:36.099 The experience was something that I'll never forget because I 0:10:36.140 --> 0:10:38.939 can remember there was a line of people waiting to 0:10:38.980 --> 0:10:41.540 go in. And the closer I had gotten to the door, 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:44.970 to the opening, it's like the sicker I was becoming. 0:10:45.710 --> 0:10:50.710 It's like something had just came over me. some outside 0:10:50.830 --> 0:10:54.590 force had just taken over and it had gotten to 0:10:54.610 --> 0:10:55.170 the point. 0:10:54.990 --> 0:10:56.230 Where I was about to draw up. 0:10:56.309 --> 0:11:02.930 And so the sergeant, he noticed it and laughed and said, you're. 0:11:02.830 --> 0:11:03.370 Sick, huh? 0:11:04.050 --> 0:11:06.860 And I looked at him, I said, yes, sir. I 0:11:06.890 --> 0:11:08.959 don't know what to come over me. And he laughed 0:11:08.980 --> 0:11:14.380 and said, it's the smell. And I remember going inside 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:16.160 the place to visit with this. 0:11:16.059 --> 0:11:16.440 Guy and. 0:11:18.630 --> 0:11:20.670 When I got in there, I didn't smell it anymore. 0:11:21.809 --> 0:11:27.320 It's like it had totally and completely consumed me. And 0:11:27.500 --> 0:11:28.360 I'll never forget that. 0:11:28.620 --> 0:11:32.000 And not only that, that visit becomes almost a foreshadowing 0:11:32.140 --> 0:11:36.040 of what would eventually befall you because you felt like 0:11:36.740 --> 0:11:39.660 there was a part of it that got into you 0:11:39.780 --> 0:11:42.890 and wanted to draw you back into it. 0:11:42.900 --> 0:11:43.260 Right. 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:48.400 When I went to visit this guy, Think some of 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:54.490 the evil inside the place got on me. I feel 0:11:54.530 --> 0:11:59.490 like some kind of evilness embedded itself in my body 0:11:59.530 --> 0:12:01.469 and decided I. 0:12:01.429 --> 0:12:07.390 Want him back in here. Get him back in here. Hey, 0:12:07.690 --> 0:12:11.650 I jump up, open the door. Police asked if Gregory 0:12:11.700 --> 0:12:17.739 Bright lived here. Yeah, that's me. They got a warrant 0:12:17.770 --> 0:12:20.100 for my arrest for the murder of Elliot Porter. 0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:28.579 It's so powerful. What was that like then getting brought 0:12:28.660 --> 0:12:29.300 back there? 0:12:30.900 --> 0:12:32.199 It was like deja vu. 0:12:32.540 --> 0:12:36.660 Everything that I had saw from the outside, now I'm 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:42.260 inside and I'm stuck among what was in my mind 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:46.280 at the time, my worst nightmare of being placed in there. 0:12:47.150 --> 0:12:48.050 Against my will. 0:12:48.890 --> 0:12:53.560 And that's the first time you ever met your 17-year-old co-defendant. 0:12:54.440 --> 0:12:57.580 Yeah, I met him while we were in prison. His 0:12:57.640 --> 0:13:01.680 face looked familiar, but come to find out, he was 0:13:01.740 --> 0:13:04.760 the brother of the person that I was thinking about. 0:13:04.850 --> 0:13:08.070 He was the younger brother of the person that seemed familiar. 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:10.819 Now, I just want to point out to listeners that 0:13:10.860 --> 0:13:14.800 we're not going to fully name your co-defendant or use 0:13:14.860 --> 0:13:18.130 the last name of the woman, Sheila, who ended up 0:13:18.150 --> 0:13:21.290 being the witness against you. And if you want to 0:13:21.330 --> 0:13:24.210 just touch upon why that's important to you, why you're 0:13:24.730 --> 0:13:28.329 so protective of both of them, but particularly her. 0:13:29.350 --> 0:13:33.030 After I spoke with her, she told me some things. 0:13:34.490 --> 0:13:37.890 about what she had experienced in her life. And I 0:13:37.970 --> 0:13:42.410 knew that this wasn't just entirely her doing, you know. 0:13:42.429 --> 0:13:45.559 I know it was a difficult thing for her, you know, 0:13:45.740 --> 0:13:49.579 to send two innocent people to prison, but it was 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:52.520 the life that she lived. It was the choices that 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:57.420 she made. Even though there was choices that devastated not 0:13:57.490 --> 0:14:01.329 only my life, but my co-defendant's life and family. And 0:14:01.350 --> 0:14:04.670 I knew it was difficult for her. And, you know, 0:14:04.690 --> 0:14:07.610 I just didn't want to add to whatever trouble that 0:14:07.650 --> 0:14:10.910 she may have had or may be facing in the future. 0:14:12.309 --> 0:14:17.500 Greg, I'm so humbled by your grace, sincerely, because the 0:14:17.530 --> 0:14:22.200 woman that we're referring to had mental illness and addiction illness, 0:14:22.500 --> 0:14:28.720 and she exchanged her testimony for financial incentive, which is 0:14:28.860 --> 0:14:32.210 what's wrong with the system. more than anything else, but 0:14:32.430 --> 0:14:37.610 I've always tried to live believing that we're all victims 0:14:37.650 --> 0:14:42.190 of victims and that hurt people end up hurting other people. 0:14:42.690 --> 0:14:46.440 And the fact that you lost 27 and a half 0:14:46.500 --> 0:14:50.480 years of your life because of that testimony and you 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:57.260 still afford her grace is so incredibly inspiring and evolved. 0:14:57.940 --> 0:15:02.300 So you're held in parish prison. For seven or so 0:15:02.340 --> 0:15:07.950 months before the trial, you are appointed a public defender 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:11.450 who you met with, I believe, once before the trial? 0:15:11.710 --> 0:15:12.350 Once, yes. 0:15:12.430 --> 0:15:18.790 This guy spoke to me at a preliminary hearing in 1976, 0:15:18.790 --> 0:15:25.560 the early part, maybe January of 76. And he asked 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:28.360 that I have a list of my witnesses, the people 0:15:28.380 --> 0:15:31.620 that I intend to call as witnesses. And I said, yeah, 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:35.100 I had given it to a guy from the Indigent 0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:36.280 Defenders Program. 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:38.680 And he had taken it. 0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:40.960 I asked him, did he speak to any of the witnesses? 0:15:40.980 --> 0:15:43.990 He said, no, I'll get around to it. And he 0:15:44.050 --> 0:15:44.450 never did. 0:15:44.470 --> 0:15:46.230 He never spoke to any of my witnesses. 0:15:47.510 --> 0:15:49.250 So his whole defense was he didn't do it. 0:15:49.270 --> 0:15:49.900 He didn't do it. 0:15:50.910 --> 0:15:55.740 Leading up to that trial, did you, your co-defendant, and 0:15:55.890 --> 0:15:59.900 your mom, your family, believe that this mistake was going 0:15:59.940 --> 0:16:02.240 to be corrected in the court of law? 0:16:02.300 --> 0:16:04.060 Yeah, well, absolutely. You know, I mean, here I'm an 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:04.760 innocent person. 0:16:04.780 --> 0:16:09.120 You know, I had absolutely zero to do with this crime. 0:16:09.950 --> 0:16:12.350 The lady who testified against me, I didn't know her. 0:16:13.150 --> 0:16:15.390 The guy who I'm on a crime with, I didn't 0:16:15.410 --> 0:16:18.210 know him. I didn't know the guy who was killed. 0:16:18.930 --> 0:16:23.740 You know, you're saying that you and this guy committed 0:16:23.780 --> 0:16:27.950 this crime together, but you've never once shown anything other 0:16:27.970 --> 0:16:32.070 than the testimony of this witness that we're associated with 0:16:32.110 --> 0:16:32.510 each other. 0:16:33.350 --> 0:16:35.220 It must have been like an episode of the Twilight 0:16:35.250 --> 0:16:36.080 Zone for you. 0:16:36.530 --> 0:16:36.820 Yes. 0:16:37.410 --> 0:16:39.980 But, you know, now here's the thing about the trial. 0:16:40.500 --> 0:16:44.000 In hindsight, looking at all the facts and circumstances of 0:16:44.020 --> 0:16:48.600 this case, you know, I mean, orchestration is just clear 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:51.900 from start to finish. 0:16:53.260 --> 0:16:55.680 And the fact that leading up to the trial, you 0:16:55.720 --> 0:17:00.220 were offered... a plea deal of five years, and you 0:17:00.260 --> 0:17:03.660 didn't want to take it because you were innocent. 0:17:04.420 --> 0:17:07.440 In fact, five years? Are you kidding me? 0:17:07.460 --> 0:17:10.920 It could have said five days. It would have seemed 0:17:10.940 --> 0:17:12.420 like a life sentence. 0:17:12.940 --> 0:17:15.540 Five days in prison? No, no, indeed. 0:17:15.740 --> 0:17:18.590 No, uh-uh. You're going to have to do more than 0:17:18.619 --> 0:17:21.230 just throw that out there and expect me to. 0:17:22.630 --> 0:17:23.909 Accept it. No, no. 0:17:35.590 --> 0:17:39.750 So that mockery of a trial lasts for all of 0:17:39.869 --> 0:17:45.780 a day and the jury deliberates for all of 13 minutes. 0:17:46.760 --> 0:17:49.399 I was like, they don't have anything. They don't have 0:17:49.420 --> 0:17:52.540 a gun. They don't have an eyewitness, you know. But 0:17:53.380 --> 0:17:57.169 when we got the trial and The state put on 0:17:57.190 --> 0:18:01.950 this case. After the state rests, my lawyers came and said, look, 0:18:02.030 --> 0:18:04.190 there's a recess. You know, the purpose of this, you know, 0:18:04.210 --> 0:18:07.070 we're going to switch over to the defense. And if 0:18:07.150 --> 0:18:10.230 we want to, we could call witnesses and stuff like that. 0:18:10.250 --> 0:18:14.300 He said, I'm going to confer with co-counsel and we're 0:18:14.359 --> 0:18:16.320 going to decide whether or not we're going to proceed 0:18:16.340 --> 0:18:21.480 with the Alibaba defense. And after recess was over, He 0:18:21.550 --> 0:18:24.270 came back in and, you know, this guy get up 0:18:24.369 --> 0:18:28.170 and say, at this time, the defense rests. And that 0:18:28.210 --> 0:18:33.260 was followed by my co-defendant, the co-counselor, saying the same thing. 0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:37.800 And when I questioned him about the defense rests, he 0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:40.540 said that, yeah, we decided that we're not going to 0:18:40.580 --> 0:18:44.300 go forward with the defense witness because the state witness 0:18:44.340 --> 0:18:47.720 got on the stand and cried and put on a show. See, 0:18:47.750 --> 0:18:50.880 he felt that would only aggravate. The judge, if we 0:18:50.900 --> 0:18:54.200 put on alibi, witnesses. And I said, aggravate the judge. 0:18:54.280 --> 0:18:56.060 I said, the judge is not on trial here. 0:18:56.760 --> 0:19:03.250 And then that's all they had, the hysterical testimony of 0:19:03.390 --> 0:19:05.030 a woman who it turns out had been in a 0:19:05.109 --> 0:19:06.450 mental institution. 0:19:06.570 --> 0:19:07.189 Absolutely. 0:19:07.750 --> 0:19:12.070 Leading up to her time on that trial. There's no 0:19:12.380 --> 0:19:17.480 physical evidence against you or your co-defendant. There's no murder 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:20.419 weapon that was ever found and traced to either one 0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:23.310 of you. What was going through your head before they 0:19:23.350 --> 0:19:24.490 announced the verdict? 0:19:24.810 --> 0:19:27.590 Yeah, I mean, I just absolutely couldn't believe it, you know. 0:19:27.609 --> 0:19:30.250 In fact, when they came back and started reading off 0:19:30.290 --> 0:19:32.869 the charge and stuff like that, I didn't want to 0:19:32.930 --> 0:19:35.820 show that. I was just so devastated. I just wanted 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:39.129 to just really be strong, but I couldn't help it. 0:19:39.160 --> 0:19:41.639 I look back, you know, and my mind was in tears, 0:19:41.680 --> 0:19:46.920 you know. My girlfriend were in tears. My sisters, they 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:49.290 were in tears. Some people were saying, well, we came 0:19:49.330 --> 0:19:52.200 to testify. When are we going to testify? They ushered 0:19:52.220 --> 0:19:55.139 them out of the courtroom. It was just a lot 0:19:55.180 --> 0:20:00.060 of people just really caught by surprise, especially for the. 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:01.660 People that really knew me. 0:20:02.140 --> 0:20:04.669 They knew, like, he's not a murderer. 0:20:05.390 --> 0:20:07.570 It was just heartbreaking. 0:20:08.850 --> 0:20:12.350 And then you're sentenced to life without the possibility of 0:20:12.510 --> 0:20:18.510 parole in a place that honestly sounds at that time 0:20:18.609 --> 0:20:23.050 particularly like hell. We're going to play an excerpt from 0:20:23.070 --> 0:20:29.409 your show about Angola, but can you just talk to 0:20:29.470 --> 0:20:36.910 me about even what the journey from parish prison to 0:20:37.050 --> 0:20:37.970 Angola was like? 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:39.580 Huh. 0:20:40.840 --> 0:20:47.340 To say that it was horrible is an understatement. It 0:20:47.540 --> 0:20:54.290 was my worst nightmare magnified 100 times, like something that 0:20:54.470 --> 0:20:59.190 someone just put together and put all the horrible things 0:20:59.230 --> 0:21:02.850 that they can imagine, just throw it in there, you know. 0:21:03.109 --> 0:21:05.790 It's like the trip gone there. I mean, we're in 0:21:05.810 --> 0:21:08.960 the back of a paddy wagon. It's seven of us. 0:21:10.990 --> 0:21:15.530 leg iron and seated in the back of this little 0:21:15.550 --> 0:21:23.660 SUV thing. And this snake road that leads from Highway 0:21:23.660 --> 0:21:26.960 61 to the prison, it was just frightening. It's like 0:21:27.420 --> 0:21:29.600 you're about to fall off a cliff in a second, 0:21:30.060 --> 0:21:34.609 even getting to this place. And once you get there, 0:21:35.770 --> 0:21:43.110 you are among The worst people in the world. People 0:21:43.910 --> 0:21:51.020 that has committed all sorts of crimes against children, against 0:21:51.080 --> 0:21:58.120 the elderly, against family members. And I got to make 0:21:58.180 --> 0:22:01.160 sense of this stuff. I'm not in the same mind 0:22:01.240 --> 0:22:03.220 frame with these guys. I don't go to bed at 0:22:03.280 --> 0:22:06.899 night and have nightmares of the crime that I done committed. 0:22:07.530 --> 0:22:09.609 I go to bed at night. I sleep peacefully. 0:22:10.010 --> 0:22:13.850 You know, I don't have these demons ride me and 0:22:13.890 --> 0:22:19.660 stuff like that. But I'm among most of them who 0:22:19.720 --> 0:22:25.180 are going through this stuff or experiencing or revisiting these crimes. 0:22:27.680 --> 0:22:29.400 Angola is the bottom of the barrel. 0:22:30.700 --> 0:22:33.149 You have to be drawn away to go to Angola. 0:22:33.690 --> 0:22:36.000 Life of 50. 0:22:36.000 --> 0:22:41.580 150 fat, maximum security prison, 5,000 inmates. 0:22:42.960 --> 0:22:43.689 Now it's 6,000. 0:22:43.680 --> 0:22:48.960 The only people qualified for a bed in Angola is 0:22:49.000 --> 0:22:51.679 those guys who are sentenced to die in that bed. 0:22:53.260 --> 0:22:59.450 It's the last stop. Angola used to be a slave plantation. 0:23:00.330 --> 0:23:04.110 The name Angola originates from the Africans who worked the plantations. 0:23:05.000 --> 0:23:09.399 Camp A used to be the old slave camp. I mean, 0:23:09.420 --> 0:23:14.899 that's something else to be part of such a long, 0:23:15.160 --> 0:23:16.639 long history. 0:23:18.440 --> 0:23:21.770 How do you claim a spot that's littered with blood? 0:23:23.090 --> 0:23:29.710 I'm talking about hundreds of years of brutality, the pain 0:23:29.770 --> 0:23:31.610 and suffering that land caused. 0:23:32.980 --> 0:23:35.619 Violence that exists on them grounds. 0:23:39.290 --> 0:23:42.170 How did you have to change as a person to 0:23:44.070 --> 0:23:47.550 survive it? How did you have to change from the 0:23:47.609 --> 0:23:52.350 moment you got there? What did you have to learn 0:23:52.550 --> 0:23:53.510 and teach yourself? 0:23:54.850 --> 0:23:58.090 I mean, going in there, I had two fears. 0:23:58.250 --> 0:24:01.070 I didn't want to die in prison, which I knew 0:24:01.210 --> 0:24:05.640 was a great possibility. And I didn't want to be 0:24:05.680 --> 0:24:08.700 in prison when my mom died. But going in there, 0:24:08.760 --> 0:24:11.100 I said, I don't have no problem with none of 0:24:11.140 --> 0:24:15.570 the inmates, no problem with the security. I know they're 0:24:15.590 --> 0:24:17.869 here to do a job. I know guys here do 0:24:17.910 --> 0:24:20.090 a sentence. I don't have a problem with any of that. 0:24:20.330 --> 0:24:22.990 What I have a problem with is the fact that 0:24:23.330 --> 0:24:27.130 I'm in prison for a crime I didn't commit. I'm 0:24:27.170 --> 0:24:31.169 going to do everything in my power to try and 0:24:31.190 --> 0:24:36.520 get out. And Somehow, some way, showed that I didn't have. 0:24:36.460 --> 0:24:37.290 Anything to do with it. 0:24:37.660 --> 0:24:40.149 Anyone that would listen, I would tell them, look, I'm 0:24:40.190 --> 0:24:42.570 here for something I didn't do. I'm not out here 0:24:42.609 --> 0:24:45.950 robbing people and raping people and doing all kinds of stuff. 0:24:45.990 --> 0:24:49.290 It's just some kind of mix-up that eventually is going 0:24:49.330 --> 0:24:52.580 to be revealed. That was the position I took, and 0:24:52.630 --> 0:24:53.460 I stood on that. 0:24:54.440 --> 0:24:59.280 In addition to teaching yourself how to read to make 0:24:59.400 --> 0:25:02.160 up for those years that you missed in school, you 0:25:02.320 --> 0:25:06.800 end up mastering the law and defending yourself all the 0:25:06.840 --> 0:25:09.580 way to the state Supreme Court. But they kept you 0:25:09.619 --> 0:25:13.410 pretty busy in terms of the physical labor you were 0:25:13.470 --> 0:25:15.790 expected to do while you were there in terms of 0:25:16.310 --> 0:25:19.490 digging ditches and backbreaking work. 0:25:20.350 --> 0:25:20.469 Yeah. 0:25:20.490 --> 0:25:22.250 You're sentenced to hard labor, you know. 0:25:22.470 --> 0:25:26.520 So now I have a life sentence and I'm required 0:25:26.560 --> 0:25:30.080 to work hard for the rest of my life. 0:25:30.680 --> 0:25:31.360 Something I didn't do. 0:25:31.400 --> 0:25:33.300 But the first day, I was like, look, all this 0:25:33.380 --> 0:25:36.080 agriculture stuff, I'm a little too tall for that. All 0:25:36.100 --> 0:25:38.340 this bending over and stuff like that. So I was 0:25:38.380 --> 0:25:40.660 always going to the hole. Some guys were like. 0:25:40.770 --> 0:25:43.429 Look, Slim, man, you need to stop going to the hole, man. 0:25:43.770 --> 0:25:47.350 But the physical labor was just entirely too much for me. 0:25:48.109 --> 0:25:50.050 So one way or the other, they're going to break you. 0:25:50.070 --> 0:25:52.050 They're going to break your spirit. They're going to break 0:25:52.070 --> 0:25:53.840 your back and they're going to break your will. 0:25:53.890 --> 0:25:54.560 Absolutely. 0:25:54.630 --> 0:25:59.899 But then there's something that you to touch upon in 0:26:00.000 --> 0:26:04.250 the show that continues to blow my mind today. And 0:26:04.350 --> 0:26:07.790 that is the work that you ended up doing at 0:26:07.890 --> 0:26:13.490 the then governor's mansion, which I don't think anybody can 0:26:13.530 --> 0:26:16.670 wrap their head around. Will you please explain it to me? 0:26:17.790 --> 0:26:20.080 Well, it came as quite a surprise to me too, 0:26:20.100 --> 0:26:23.730 you know, because I'm sitting in prison, you know, and, um, 0:26:24.460 --> 0:26:26.300 Of course, I didn't know anything about it, you know, 0:26:26.340 --> 0:26:30.840 but each time the governor is about to leave office 0:26:30.980 --> 0:26:35.600 and stuff or come into office, he would usually commute 0:26:35.640 --> 0:26:38.840 the sentences of the people that worked for him. And 0:26:38.960 --> 0:26:42.400 that's if you didn't have a real controversial case where 0:26:42.420 --> 0:26:44.540 people were making a lot of noise and a lot 0:26:44.560 --> 0:26:45.760 of protests and stuff like that. 0:26:45.900 --> 0:26:46.420 If he could. 0:26:46.320 --> 0:26:52.250 Slide through there without any opposition or little opposition, then 0:26:52.650 --> 0:26:57.619 that was the way it was done. Second term, this 0:26:57.820 --> 0:27:01.560 is 1979. He can't run for governor any longer. David 0:27:01.619 --> 0:27:06.379 Treen has won governorship, and he's about to take office. 0:27:06.420 --> 0:27:09.530 So they come to the prison. They said, look, everyone 0:27:09.570 --> 0:27:12.230 else is going to commute the sentence of all the 0:27:12.270 --> 0:27:14.550 people that works for him. So we're going to need 0:27:14.550 --> 0:27:17.190 17 guys to go down to the governor's mansion. I 0:27:17.230 --> 0:27:20.550 couldn't believe that I was chosen to be a part 0:27:20.590 --> 0:27:23.369 of that. For all the people that was interviewed, and 0:27:23.390 --> 0:27:26.190 they've winded down to the 17th, and I was part 0:27:26.230 --> 0:27:30.119 of the 17th. I didn't really feel it was the 0:27:30.600 --> 0:27:33.640 blessing that people were saying it was to me. Oh man, 0:27:33.700 --> 0:27:36.139 it's a blessing. I imagine it is a blessing for 0:27:36.180 --> 0:27:37.700 somebody that's actually guilty. 0:27:38.220 --> 0:27:42.959 But in reality, you were then given a uniform and 0:27:43.000 --> 0:27:48.550 you're basically... domestic help at the governor's mansion. 0:27:48.750 --> 0:27:50.830 Absolutely. I mean, I went there as a dishwasher. 0:27:50.930 --> 0:27:52.690 A guy in the kitchen said, look, you need to 0:27:52.730 --> 0:27:56.040 start bringing the governor's wife's breakfast in. That would help 0:27:56.100 --> 0:27:58.600 you over the long haul, you know. When the governor's 0:27:58.640 --> 0:28:02.439 wife becomes friendly, she knows your face and knows your name, 0:28:03.200 --> 0:28:06.360 she would encourage her husband to commute your sentence. But 0:28:06.700 --> 0:28:09.659 I wasn't interested in a commutation of my sentence. I 0:28:09.680 --> 0:28:10.460 wanted my freedom. 0:28:11.890 --> 0:28:17.070 You're a man who has been wrongfully accused, wrongfully convicted, 0:28:17.369 --> 0:28:22.840 but convicted of murder. And other people who have been 0:28:23.100 --> 0:28:26.699 convicted of, am I right? You had to just be 0:28:26.720 --> 0:28:31.280 a pure murderer. They wouldn't take anybody who had been convicted. 0:28:31.300 --> 0:28:33.990 And that's the one thing I found credible. These people 0:28:34.010 --> 0:28:39.350 had committed some serious offense. But they're working around a governor. 0:28:39.770 --> 0:28:41.830 Like I said, when I first went to the governor's mansion, 0:28:41.890 --> 0:28:46.790 I was on the dishwasher. After speaking with the governor's wife, 0:28:46.930 --> 0:28:49.370 they suddenly put me over the main dining hall. 0:28:50.450 --> 0:28:52.450 I can't believe it. Of course, they didn't know me. 0:28:52.470 --> 0:28:56.030 I could have been an actual killer or something, but 0:28:56.050 --> 0:28:57.560 I'm serving the governor. 0:28:59.940 --> 0:29:00.600 So corrupt. 0:29:00.700 --> 0:29:05.210 It's just so crazy. It's so crazy. You put it 0:29:05.630 --> 0:29:09.780 wonderfully in the show, which I hope everybody reads and 0:29:09.820 --> 0:29:10.860 gets the chance to see. 0:29:11.020 --> 0:29:12.220 Absolutely. 0:29:12.600 --> 0:29:17.720 But where did you get the drive and the strength 0:29:18.000 --> 0:29:20.980 to fight to get out for 27 and a half years? 0:29:21.590 --> 0:29:24.350 I went through this period of just being angry. And 0:29:24.590 --> 0:29:27.010 I came to the conclusion that just, you know, I'm 0:29:27.050 --> 0:29:30.340 just spending a lot of energy just being angry and 0:29:30.680 --> 0:29:33.480 not getting anything done. My anger's still there, but it 0:29:33.500 --> 0:29:37.130 started to subside enough to allow me to venture off 0:29:37.170 --> 0:29:41.790 into other areas, like my reading and and comprehension. Once 0:29:41.870 --> 0:29:44.770 I learned how to read, I mean, doors started opening 0:29:44.950 --> 0:29:48.060 up that I didn't even know was there, and that 0:29:48.660 --> 0:29:52.020 it kept me motivated, kept me interested, and I challenged 0:29:52.040 --> 0:29:57.040 that energy into the legal aspect of this. It just 0:29:57.080 --> 0:30:00.880 took over me, and You know, I started reading cases, 0:30:01.100 --> 0:30:06.550 cases of people that I knew. And the case, the 0:30:06.630 --> 0:30:12.370 actual trial proceedings, people that I was in the dome with. 0:30:12.810 --> 0:30:15.030 So if I was curious about somebody in the dome, 0:30:15.450 --> 0:30:18.110 all I do is get their name and read their case. 0:30:18.990 --> 0:30:21.370 And so most of the guys in the dome, I 0:30:21.410 --> 0:30:23.230 knew more about their case than they did. 0:30:24.050 --> 0:30:27.470 And then if you understand how it happened to them 0:30:27.860 --> 0:30:33.350 and sometimes recognize they were correctly convicted, you begin to 0:30:33.530 --> 0:30:36.630 understand how the system was used against you. 0:30:36.870 --> 0:30:40.040 Absolutely. And it was a long process, you know. 0:30:40.060 --> 0:30:44.580 I wish that it could have been cut in half, 0:30:44.720 --> 0:30:47.440 but it played out in its own time and stuff. 0:30:47.520 --> 0:30:53.100 And I was just so thankful that along the way 0:30:53.220 --> 0:30:57.080 I was able to make the right transitions and make 0:30:57.120 --> 0:30:58.940 the right decisions moving forward. 0:31:00.430 --> 0:31:03.550 And, Laura, you've been incredibly patient, and we're going to 0:31:03.590 --> 0:31:07.790 get to you in just one second, too. But you mentioned, Greg, 0:31:07.810 --> 0:31:12.280 that you had two wishes and two desires and hopes 0:31:12.430 --> 0:31:14.240 when all of this happened to you. And one was 0:31:14.280 --> 0:31:17.340 that you didn't die in prison, but the other one 0:31:17.420 --> 0:31:21.880 was that you wouldn't be in prison when your mom passed. Yeah, yeah. 0:31:23.220 --> 0:31:26.260 to me, is one of the most heartbreaking aspects of 0:31:26.340 --> 0:31:30.200 this and the way in which you were told. If 0:31:30.240 --> 0:31:31.800 you're comfortable talking to that. 0:31:31.820 --> 0:31:33.479 Yeah, absolutely. 0:31:33.540 --> 0:31:36.650 Here's the thing about my mom fasting. It came as 0:31:36.790 --> 0:31:40.230 a total surprise to me. My family, they wouldn't tell 0:31:40.310 --> 0:31:44.690 me exactly what was going on with my mom's health. 0:31:45.410 --> 0:31:47.110 According to my sister's. 0:31:48.470 --> 0:31:52.300 Reasoning, it was that, well, you're already under pressure in prison. 0:31:53.050 --> 0:31:55.670 But I was like, look, you should have told me. 0:31:55.890 --> 0:31:59.830 That way I would have been prepared when this guy 0:32:00.390 --> 0:32:03.790 came into the dome. But when the priest came into 0:32:03.810 --> 0:32:06.670 the dormitory, came in and called my name, it just 0:32:06.710 --> 0:32:08.890 took everything out of me. I mean, it's just my 0:32:08.950 --> 0:32:11.670 mind just, everything was just. 0:32:11.530 --> 0:32:12.590 A blur, you know. 0:32:13.610 --> 0:32:16.810 The people I had been around a great length of 0:32:16.870 --> 0:32:20.990 time just seemed like strangers. It's like I'm looking at 0:32:21.010 --> 0:32:21.970 them the first time. 0:32:23.300 --> 0:32:26.880 I mean, we talked about how working to break your 0:32:26.900 --> 0:32:29.600 back and the whole to break your spirit, but that 0:32:29.640 --> 0:32:31.000 must have just broken your heart. 0:32:32.060 --> 0:32:35.000 Yeah, I was done, you know. I mean, I kept 0:32:35.020 --> 0:32:39.460 telling myself that I'm going to last through the night. 0:32:39.480 --> 0:32:43.170 It just was that low. It was all I had 0:32:43.190 --> 0:32:46.510 in the world. It was gone, just like that. Having 0:32:46.550 --> 0:32:50.450 someone that you can call on in a situation, it's 0:32:50.470 --> 0:32:52.750 a really good feeling to have that. I can call 0:32:52.850 --> 0:32:58.550 on this person. And suddenly, it's no longer there. 0:32:58.570 --> 0:33:00.920 I was in a dark hole. 0:33:01.000 --> 0:33:04.180 I was in a dark place. I just couldn't find 0:33:04.220 --> 0:33:06.920 my way. And all the work I had done, my 0:33:06.980 --> 0:33:11.100 locker was in the middle of the aisle. And I 0:33:11.160 --> 0:33:13.220 tell myself, I'm getting up in the morning. I'm going 0:33:14.610 --> 0:33:16.570 to try to do a little reading or whatever. But 0:33:16.650 --> 0:33:19.490 I look at that locker, and I just get so frustrated. 0:33:19.570 --> 0:33:21.930 It slammed me back down. That's what I'm doing it for. 0:33:22.680 --> 0:33:28.090 Another aspect of Angola is it's so difficult to get 0:33:28.170 --> 0:33:33.870 to for family. It's so inconvenient and hard to make 0:33:33.910 --> 0:33:38.890 the trip, which makes the cruelty of it even that 0:33:38.970 --> 0:33:44.780 much more magnified. But thankfully you did open that locker 0:33:44.860 --> 0:33:48.710 again and you fought. argued your appeals all the way 0:33:48.880 --> 0:33:53.200 up to the state Supreme Court. And then the Innocence 0:33:53.240 --> 0:33:57.480 Project of New Orleans got involved. And by the end 0:33:57.560 --> 0:34:01.320 of it, the court overturned your convictions, and that was 0:34:01.540 --> 0:34:07.640 upheld by the Louisiana Supreme Court. And then on June 24th, 2003, 0:34:07.640 --> 0:34:11.260 after 27 years, seven months, and 10 days in prison, 0:34:11.560 --> 0:34:15.970 you and your co-defendant were both released from after the 0:34:16.290 --> 0:34:23.450 Orleans Parish DA dismissed all charges. This still just hits 0:34:24.110 --> 0:34:28.090 in such a painful way. You and your co-defendant left 0:34:28.180 --> 0:34:33.380 prison with nothing but a $ 10 check from the state 0:34:33.620 --> 0:34:38.919 and garbage bags full of your legal paperwork. Is that 0:34:39.140 --> 0:34:39.910 sugarcoating it? 0:34:39.900 --> 0:34:43.980 $ 10, I couldn't believe that. When we were leaving the prison, 0:34:44.000 --> 0:34:46.780 he gave me the envelope with the check. He said, man, 0:34:47.160 --> 0:34:50.100 I would tear that check up. He said, that's a shame. 0:34:50.360 --> 0:34:53.390 Someone would be in prison all these years for something 0:34:53.410 --> 0:34:57.540 they didn't do, and to be handed a check for $ 10, 0:34:57.469 --> 0:35:02.250 that's not even bus fare, to wherever it is you're going. 0:35:03.130 --> 0:35:05.580 I said, yeah, I'm just glad to be out. I'm 0:35:05.620 --> 0:35:08.360 glad to be getting away from this. They could have 0:35:08.400 --> 0:35:11.400 kept the check. But when you think about it, for 0:35:11.420 --> 0:35:16.720 27-something years in prison, worked in the fields a little time, 0:35:17.560 --> 0:35:20.090 stayed a lot of years in the kitchen. I stayed 0:35:20.110 --> 0:35:22.750 a lot of years at the horse lot. Stayed a 0:35:22.810 --> 0:35:26.430 couple of years at the governor's mansion. And to be 0:35:26.469 --> 0:35:30.730 given a check for $ 10. 0:35:29.730 --> 0:35:33.350 It's so disgusting. I can't even, I have no words. 0:35:33.969 --> 0:35:39.510 And then you're tasked with processing everything that happened to you, 0:35:39.850 --> 0:35:41.930 and just building a new life? 0:35:42.489 --> 0:35:46.620 That's still difficult because I'm at a great disadvantage when 0:35:46.660 --> 0:35:49.080 I get out. I'm not 20 years old any longer. 0:35:49.600 --> 0:35:54.620 I'm 47 years old. I don't have any finances. I 0:35:54.640 --> 0:35:57.020 have to start at the bottom. I was offered a 0:35:57.060 --> 0:36:00.300 lot of jobs. I could have worked with a couple 0:36:00.360 --> 0:36:03.470 of lawyers and stuff, but I didn't want to be 0:36:03.510 --> 0:36:06.089 a part of the prison system. 0:36:06.870 --> 0:36:08.390 I wanted to be away from that. 0:36:08.450 --> 0:36:12.890 I didn't want to profit off of someone's grief, someone's 0:36:12.950 --> 0:36:18.529 pain and suffering. I needed to re-energize myself, reinvent myself, 0:36:18.610 --> 0:36:22.689 and then see what was out there. And it's been real, 0:36:22.710 --> 0:36:24.210 real difficult doing that. 0:36:25.330 --> 0:36:29.270 Because it's not like you're suddenly given a blueprint. 0:36:29.370 --> 0:36:29.650 Right. 0:36:29.870 --> 0:36:35.440 And even though you did end up receiving... some compensation. 0:36:35.580 --> 0:36:36.420 It was nominal. 0:36:36.460 --> 0:36:38.130 Right. I don't even feel it. 0:36:38.280 --> 0:36:41.969 It's just enough compensation to get you in a. 0:36:41.950 --> 0:36:42.589 World of debt. 0:36:43.170 --> 0:36:46.430 And the thing about it is, I don't feel like 0:36:47.630 --> 0:36:52.090 I've been compensated. I don't care what the numbers. 0:36:53.340 --> 0:36:59.220 Could be. I can't be compensated for what happened. 0:36:59.700 --> 0:37:04.370 The experience of being incarcerated a month The type of 0:37:04.430 --> 0:37:08.390 people that I was incarcerated with, for that length of time, 0:37:09.910 --> 0:37:16.419 it's just one day of that is enough that you 0:37:16.500 --> 0:37:19.540 would never, ever want to be involved in that kind 0:37:19.600 --> 0:37:20.259 of stuff again. 0:37:46.980 --> 0:37:51.160 I would love to know now from you, Laura, how 0:37:51.239 --> 0:37:53.280 you guys first crossed paths. 0:37:54.469 --> 0:37:57.230 We met when Greg had been out of prison, I 0:37:57.590 --> 0:38:02.650 guess about four years, and I was a volunteer working 0:38:02.690 --> 0:38:06.760 with the Innocence Project as a narrative consultant because there 0:38:07.060 --> 0:38:11.750 are probably more people exonerated out of Louisiana than any 0:38:11.790 --> 0:38:15.180 other state because there are more wrongful convictions in Louisiana. 0:38:15.700 --> 0:38:19.020 And so many people had been coming out of Angola. 0:38:19.980 --> 0:38:24.820 And like Greg, decades of experience, people were very interested 0:38:24.960 --> 0:38:29.230 in hearing their stories. But what do you do with 0:38:29.230 --> 0:38:32.410 27 and a half years of incarceration? How do you 0:38:32.469 --> 0:38:36.009 even begin to put that into a 15-minute presentation for 0:38:36.050 --> 0:38:38.779 a church or community center? we had a group of 0:38:38.840 --> 0:38:41.420 four people initially. My role was to help kind of 0:38:41.460 --> 0:38:45.880 start to shape some of this life experience. So we 0:38:45.920 --> 0:38:50.100 worked together for a few months and had a presentation 0:38:51.160 --> 0:38:54.830 with all four of the exonerees. During that time, I 0:38:55.410 --> 0:38:59.290 was just continually drawn to Greg. Greg, as you can tell, 0:38:59.310 --> 0:39:01.650 has a great heart. He has a lot of wisdom. 0:39:02.030 --> 0:39:05.430 He's a great storyteller. And so after the initial project 0:39:05.469 --> 0:39:08.890 was complete, we continued to work together for the next 0:39:09.090 --> 0:39:11.509 couple of years. And we would meet everywhere. We met 0:39:11.550 --> 0:39:13.410 at coffee shots. We met in the park. We met 0:39:13.450 --> 0:39:16.410 at my office. We met once or twice a week 0:39:16.550 --> 0:39:17.530 for a couple of years. 0:39:17.770 --> 0:39:20.450 You know, she used to always say, wait a minute, Greg, 0:39:20.489 --> 0:39:22.650 wait a minute. Let me get my recorder. Let me 0:39:22.670 --> 0:39:25.710 take this down. I'm saying, hey, what did you talk about? 0:39:25.730 --> 0:39:28.580 He said, no, no, I got to type this out. 0:39:29.180 --> 0:39:32.260 And I just asked him question after question and recorded 0:39:32.420 --> 0:39:36.240 every conversation, transcribed it word for word. I had hundreds 0:39:36.280 --> 0:39:40.160 and hundreds of pages of transcribed notes. And slowly it 0:39:40.900 --> 0:39:43.320 took the shape of one man play. 0:39:44.640 --> 0:39:49.250 I should imagine too that it's interesting as an exoneree 0:39:49.310 --> 0:39:52.970 because People will ask you questions, but how much do 0:39:53.010 --> 0:39:56.060 they really want to know? Like, how deep is their 0:39:56.140 --> 0:39:59.600 commitment to your experience? And you met your match. 0:39:59.620 --> 0:40:00.600 Yeah, absolutely. 0:40:00.640 --> 0:40:05.700 But this has been the most rewarding experience that I've 0:40:05.760 --> 0:40:09.049 ever had. It's painful in a lot of ways, but 0:40:09.310 --> 0:40:10.250 it's painfully true. 0:40:11.150 --> 0:40:14.010 Is it what led you on your path to become 0:40:14.050 --> 0:40:14.550 an actor? 0:40:15.050 --> 0:40:15.670 Yes and no. 0:40:15.730 --> 0:40:18.660 I mean... First, we had a professional actor that was 0:40:18.700 --> 0:40:23.090 doing the play, but the guy starts swaying from the script, 0:40:23.750 --> 0:40:28.310 slowly putting his personal stuff in there. 0:40:28.390 --> 0:40:31.430 I was like, you know what? Maybe it'd be a 0:40:31.469 --> 0:40:32.950 good idea for you to do the play. 0:40:32.989 --> 0:40:35.509 I had never thought about acting, but of course, it's 0:40:35.550 --> 0:40:38.969 not acting because this is something I've gone through. 0:40:39.010 --> 0:40:40.220 This is my experience. 0:40:40.260 --> 0:40:43.339 So I really didn't look at it like acting, but 0:40:43.520 --> 0:40:47.920 I was comfortable enough to Pursue other interests in acting. 0:40:48.080 --> 0:40:52.120 One of the interns that at the time was working 0:40:52.219 --> 0:40:58.310 at IPNO, she decided to switch careers, becoming part of 0:40:58.330 --> 0:41:00.510 the second line studios here in New Orleans. 0:41:00.590 --> 0:41:02.770 And so she became my agent. 0:41:03.430 --> 0:41:07.049 Megan Lewis, she's a tremendous person with good heart, good 0:41:07.090 --> 0:41:11.489 spirit and stuff. And so she is responsible for me 0:41:11.550 --> 0:41:16.770 being in These movies, the 12 Years a Slave, the 0:41:16.770 --> 0:41:20.090 12 Rounds with John Cena, it's just a few of 0:41:20.110 --> 0:41:23.469 those movies she was instrumental in me being a part of. 0:41:24.190 --> 0:41:29.780 What about working on the entire process of creating that 0:41:29.860 --> 0:41:33.600 show with Laura was therapeutic for you? 0:41:34.600 --> 0:41:36.480 Oh, absolutely. I mean, at. 0:41:38.180 --> 0:41:41.969 One point I couldn't get through the mother scene, I'd 0:41:42.030 --> 0:41:44.830 always break down and just get these flashbacks. And then 0:41:45.350 --> 0:41:48.609 we'd have to stop and start back and stuff like that. 0:41:48.650 --> 0:41:51.330 You know, it took me a long time to really 0:41:51.390 --> 0:41:53.810 put my mom's death in perspective. 0:41:55.370 --> 0:41:58.819 And that is something that you get to purge in 0:41:58.860 --> 0:42:01.760 the show because it's your truth. 0:42:01.840 --> 0:42:02.100 Right. 0:42:02.640 --> 0:42:07.660 And, and Laura, to you, and it's very interesting. evident 0:42:07.960 --> 0:42:12.259 in what you guys have created together, your empathy and 0:42:12.300 --> 0:42:15.980 your compassion and your understanding. I know in addition to 0:42:16.020 --> 0:42:21.950 being an incredibly gifted writer, you're also a compassion trainer, 0:42:22.530 --> 0:42:27.870 but you are also the survivor of a violent attack 0:42:27.969 --> 0:42:32.770 that happened years ago while you were traveling. In what 0:42:32.950 --> 0:42:36.839 way did dealing with that trauma affect lead you to 0:42:36.920 --> 0:42:41.330 what you do today and how you crossed paths with Greg? 0:42:43.110 --> 0:42:46.310 Yeah, very directly. So as you mentioned, I was traveling 0:42:46.350 --> 0:42:48.650 in Belize and I was picked up by a man 0:42:48.730 --> 0:42:51.460 pretending to be a cab driver and I was kidnapped 0:42:51.540 --> 0:42:54.620 into the jungle where I was robbed and raped and 0:42:54.780 --> 0:42:57.740 the man intended to kill me and. 0:42:59.180 --> 0:42:59.939 I couldn't run. 0:43:00.000 --> 0:43:02.620 I couldn't hide. I couldn't overpower the man, but what 0:43:02.660 --> 0:43:05.489 I could do was turn toward his pain. And you 0:43:05.530 --> 0:43:09.290 mentioned earlier that one of your sort of fundamental beliefs 0:43:09.350 --> 0:43:11.589 is that hurt people hurt people. And that was so 0:43:11.790 --> 0:43:15.089 obvious in this experience. It was to my benefit that 0:43:15.170 --> 0:43:17.690 he was a real talker. And so he was telling 0:43:17.750 --> 0:43:19.860 me the problems of his life. And so I turned 0:43:19.880 --> 0:43:23.600 my attention toward him. And caring for him is what 0:43:23.640 --> 0:43:26.080 literally saved my life. And so at the end of 0:43:26.120 --> 0:43:29.140 that experience, I was living in Los Angeles at the time. 0:43:29.200 --> 0:43:32.319 I flew home. I was just trying to make sense 0:43:32.360 --> 0:43:35.259 of this. what just happened and what is this thing 0:43:35.300 --> 0:43:38.160 called compassion? I knew to call it compassion, but I 0:43:38.219 --> 0:43:41.640 didn't know what compassion was. Certainly wasn't a compassion trainer 0:43:41.680 --> 0:43:45.980 yet at that point. And so thus began my journey. 0:43:46.020 --> 0:43:48.759 You know, I started down that walk of first trying 0:43:48.800 --> 0:43:52.600 to learn about, first trying to heal from that experience, 0:43:52.640 --> 0:43:56.300 from the fear of it, but also the disappointment that 0:43:57.140 --> 0:44:01.620 I experienced when I wanted to express care and concern 0:44:01.640 --> 0:44:04.819 for not just for myself, but also for him, for 0:44:04.900 --> 0:44:09.870 his wellbeing, for his healing. Because to me, the best 0:44:10.650 --> 0:44:12.969 consequence that could come from this is that we would 0:44:13.030 --> 0:44:15.750 both heal so that he would no longer have the 0:44:15.790 --> 0:44:18.870 kind of hurt and pain that would hurt then someone else. 0:44:19.510 --> 0:44:22.200 But I was met with a lot of resistance to 0:44:22.239 --> 0:44:27.020 that idea. And so I kept looking for teachers and 0:44:27.239 --> 0:44:30.180 counselors who I could work with. And I was having 0:44:30.219 --> 0:44:33.060 a really hard time finding people people who would match 0:44:33.500 --> 0:44:38.160 my exploration. And so I moved to New Orleans right 0:44:38.219 --> 0:44:40.340 after Katrina, and that seemed to make a lot of 0:44:40.390 --> 0:44:43.310 sense to me. The city was sort of in upheaval. 0:44:43.510 --> 0:44:48.049 My life was recently in upheaval. And everyone was just 0:44:48.489 --> 0:44:52.410 putting pieces back together again. I didn't think about it consciously. 0:44:52.450 --> 0:44:55.960 I love New Orleans, but I also felt really comfortable 0:44:56.160 --> 0:44:59.980 in that mess. And I was only in New Orleans 0:45:00.000 --> 0:45:02.219 for a couple of years before I met Greg and 0:45:02.239 --> 0:45:06.200 the other exonerees. And so Greg was somebody who could 0:45:06.930 --> 0:45:10.009 shed some light on the experience of incarceration and the 0:45:10.090 --> 0:45:12.950 experience of people who were responsible for harm, but he 0:45:13.010 --> 0:45:17.810 himself was not responsible for that harm. And so he 0:45:17.830 --> 0:45:21.150 was a step closer to my questions. My time with 0:45:21.210 --> 0:45:24.110 Greg was a way for me to really start to 0:45:24.210 --> 0:45:27.009 sort out both my questions and some answers. So he 0:45:27.150 --> 0:45:28.750 really became a great teacher for me. 0:45:30.140 --> 0:45:33.880 So you both brought about a great deal of healing 0:45:34.780 --> 0:45:39.560 in one another's lives just through this creative process that 0:45:39.600 --> 0:45:40.080 you shared. 0:45:41.920 --> 0:45:45.200 Healing is for sure a process. And I think we 0:45:45.300 --> 0:45:49.020 intersected in that process. Greg had already done healing work 0:45:49.060 --> 0:45:52.259 before we met. So had I. we were able to 0:45:52.400 --> 0:45:55.720 support one another while we were working on the play. 0:45:55.950 --> 0:45:58.049 And of course, both of us are still doing our 0:45:58.090 --> 0:46:02.050 work beyond that. And yes, but there's something about working 0:46:02.110 --> 0:46:06.529 on a creative project that places the experience outside of 0:46:06.670 --> 0:46:08.670 us so that we can kind of look at it, 0:46:08.790 --> 0:46:12.370 shape it, move it around. And I do want to 0:46:12.410 --> 0:46:16.069 talk a little bit too about Greg talking about his 0:46:16.130 --> 0:46:20.859 mom's death. When Greg and I first started, started meeting. 0:46:21.590 --> 0:46:26.390 Greg talked about his mom's death every single time. And 0:46:26.450 --> 0:46:32.049 it was by far the most painful thing still in 0:46:32.090 --> 0:46:36.830 his life. And after a while, after months of this, 0:46:37.010 --> 0:46:42.670 I became very concerned about what we were doing. Because yes, 0:46:43.090 --> 0:46:46.570 working on a creative project and story sharing can be healing, 0:46:46.750 --> 0:46:51.870 but it also can be re-traumatizing. And if done without 0:46:51.950 --> 0:46:55.469 that care and sensitivity, it can be devastating. 0:46:56.230 --> 0:46:57.029 It's like opening a wound. 0:46:57.070 --> 0:46:59.270 It's opening a wound. It's opening a wound. I mean, 0:46:59.290 --> 0:47:03.180 it was so complex and so deep. So I actually 0:47:03.219 --> 0:47:05.360 went off for a little while and I got trained 0:47:05.640 --> 0:47:08.920 in some trauma narrative work so that I could bring 0:47:09.000 --> 0:47:12.600 some new skills back to our conversation. And we started 0:47:12.700 --> 0:47:18.680 employing some of those techniques. And that's when Greg started 0:47:18.739 --> 0:47:23.719 to remember his mom's words of advice because they came 0:47:23.760 --> 0:47:25.600 to him at a time when he really needed them 0:47:25.620 --> 0:47:30.080 in Angola. But then once coming home, he was so, Greg, 0:47:31.020 --> 0:47:32.800 please let me know if I'm not saying this correctly, 0:47:32.840 --> 0:47:35.700 but he seemed to be so overwhelmed then by the 0:47:35.780 --> 0:47:39.930 grief that the wisdom had been lost inside the grief. 0:47:40.810 --> 0:47:43.150 And so what the retelling of the play did was 0:47:43.190 --> 0:47:46.430 it brought us back to the wisdom. I think the 0:47:46.510 --> 0:47:50.250 trust in the theater is what led us to Being 0:47:50.290 --> 0:47:53.210 able to cry through those scenes together over and over 0:47:53.270 --> 0:47:56.810 again until finally we could do it without that level 0:47:56.850 --> 0:47:58.670 of grief. Is that fair to say, Greg? 0:47:58.730 --> 0:48:00.390 Yeah, absolutely. That's right on. 0:48:00.950 --> 0:48:04.340 And so I can understand when people say that they 0:48:04.800 --> 0:48:07.340 were affected by it or moved by that particular part 0:48:07.380 --> 0:48:11.220 because it is the heart of the play. 0:48:11.940 --> 0:48:14.700 I've had the pleasure, honestly, the honor of reading the 0:48:14.760 --> 0:48:20.090 play multiple times at this point. And I always cry 0:48:20.110 --> 0:48:25.330 at that point because it is so elegant in its honesty. 0:48:26.350 --> 0:48:29.589 Simplicity is not the right word. It's honesty, but just 0:48:29.770 --> 0:48:33.450 exquisite in its heartbreak because it's real. 0:48:34.290 --> 0:48:36.029 And it was because of Greg that I went to 0:48:36.110 --> 0:48:41.439 Angola for the first time. And since then, I have 0:48:41.800 --> 0:48:44.719 been very involved in prison work. After Greg and I 0:48:44.760 --> 0:48:47.640 wrote the play, I actually, I wrote a book and 0:48:47.680 --> 0:48:51.410 published a book about my own experience and became a 0:48:51.590 --> 0:48:55.190 compassion trainer and then ended up going to Angola once 0:48:55.230 --> 0:48:58.550 a week for many years and working to create a 0:48:58.730 --> 0:49:00.330 prison-wide compassion program. 0:49:01.270 --> 0:49:05.049 I can't imagine for both of you how incredible that 0:49:05.150 --> 0:49:09.040 trip together to Angola must have been because Greg, at 0:49:09.100 --> 0:49:13.480 that point, you have processed a lot of demons that 0:49:13.520 --> 0:49:17.660 were inflicted upon you by the experience in terms of 0:49:17.760 --> 0:49:21.920 working on the play. And Laura, you get to see 0:49:21.940 --> 0:49:26.239 a place that you have already seen through Greg's eyes 0:49:26.360 --> 0:49:31.779 with your own. Was it a really emotional experience for 0:49:31.820 --> 0:49:32.880 you to go there together? 0:49:32.900 --> 0:49:37.120 I didn't have any personal interest going back to prison. 0:49:37.540 --> 0:49:42.430 I wanted to go back For Laura's sake, because we 0:49:42.450 --> 0:49:47.029 had talked so much about Angola that I know she 0:49:47.090 --> 0:49:51.670 visualized it in her mind, but it's one thing to 0:49:51.770 --> 0:49:55.799 see it in your mind and then to be standing there. 0:49:55.880 --> 0:50:00.180 I wanted her to see what I saw while I 0:50:00.219 --> 0:50:00.660 was there. 0:50:01.600 --> 0:50:05.670 And I must say that when she got there, she 0:50:05.710 --> 0:50:09.029 saw it. She saw what I saw. We go in 0:50:09.050 --> 0:50:10.930 the dormitory and a guy come out. 0:50:11.110 --> 0:50:13.290 I look around. I don't see Laura. The guy come 0:50:13.310 --> 0:50:16.870 in and say, man, you with the lady? I'm like, yeah. 0:50:16.950 --> 0:50:21.339 He said, man, she's outside crying. And I knew what 0:50:21.360 --> 0:50:23.600 it was. I knew it was what she saw was 0:50:23.640 --> 0:50:27.040 just so overwhelming. But I knew for me it would 0:50:27.239 --> 0:50:33.990 draw a lot of memories back and feelings of helplessness 0:50:34.130 --> 0:50:36.469 when I have to look at guys that I didn't 0:50:37.969 --> 0:50:41.770 slept next to it and worked with, held long conversations with, 0:50:42.270 --> 0:50:47.730 and now to suddenly be on the outside and looking 0:50:47.810 --> 0:50:51.370 at them and dealing with them from the inside, it 0:50:52.150 --> 0:50:55.799 was just another part of the story, but it's part 0:50:55.860 --> 0:50:58.960 of the story that hit home with me because I 0:50:59.020 --> 0:51:01.739 can't help this situation, you know what I mean? I 0:51:01.780 --> 0:51:04.839 could just try to be strong, and that's the only 0:51:04.880 --> 0:51:07.100 advice I could give someone in that situation. 0:51:08.989 --> 0:51:09.980 It's just devastating. 0:51:12.180 --> 0:51:15.239 For me, there were layers of complexity to it. It 0:51:15.320 --> 0:51:18.799 was a really pivotal experience for me in terms of 0:51:19.060 --> 0:51:21.020 being able to write the play, but also in my 0:51:21.080 --> 0:51:24.550 own personal life. First, in terms of the play, Greg 0:51:24.590 --> 0:51:28.730 had been saying for months and months that the play 0:51:28.890 --> 0:51:32.370 wasn't just about him. And I kept saying, yeah, but 0:51:32.410 --> 0:51:34.730 it's really about you. It's not about me. It's not 0:51:34.770 --> 0:51:38.529 about me. It's about everyone there. And I did not 0:51:38.650 --> 0:51:42.360 understand that until I went to Angola. When I walked 0:51:42.390 --> 0:51:47.040 into the dorm and I felt, Greg talks about going 0:51:47.160 --> 0:51:50.900 to parish prison and the smell. For me, when I 0:51:50.960 --> 0:51:56.440 walked into the dorm, I just felt grief. And there 0:51:56.480 --> 0:51:59.360 was nothing to do but cry. It was so much. 0:52:00.460 --> 0:52:04.210 And in that moment, I realized, oh, this play is 0:52:04.270 --> 0:52:08.190 not about Greg. Greg is one person in this enormous 0:52:08.850 --> 0:52:13.299 system of both people who are innocent who end up 0:52:13.340 --> 0:52:16.180 in prison and also people who are responsible for harm 0:52:16.440 --> 0:52:20.560 who end up in prison. And so for me personally, 0:52:20.780 --> 0:52:25.770 the person who harmed me, had he been convicted, he 0:52:26.230 --> 0:52:29.110 in Louisiana would be spending the rest of his life 0:52:29.630 --> 0:52:34.330 at Angola, hard labor. And I, since working at Angola, 0:52:34.350 --> 0:52:37.850 have actually met people whose crimes look very similar to 0:52:37.890 --> 0:52:40.250 the one that I experienced, who are spending the rest 0:52:40.290 --> 0:52:43.410 of their lives at Angola. And what I know about 0:52:43.530 --> 0:52:46.650 every person there is that they are absolutely more than 0:52:46.690 --> 0:52:50.689 that event. And yet, that is not how we talk 0:52:50.750 --> 0:52:53.529 about people. That is not how we see people. We 0:52:53.570 --> 0:52:57.870 talk about, quote, murderers. A person who has taken a 0:52:57.910 --> 0:53:01.920 life committed a murder. That does not make them a murderer. 0:53:02.140 --> 0:53:08.450 It's not ongoing. I have the profound respect for so 0:53:08.550 --> 0:53:12.250 many of the individuals who I've met over the years 0:53:12.290 --> 0:53:18.160 there who have grappled with their crime, who are experiencing 0:53:18.739 --> 0:53:22.400 the grief, the suffering, the shame, the regret, but also 0:53:22.460 --> 0:53:25.700 the strength in living a life that also includes joy 0:53:25.860 --> 0:53:29.100 and love and compassion and healing. And I think that 0:53:29.160 --> 0:53:31.930 if we don't tell the whole complex story, then we're 0:53:31.989 --> 0:53:34.589 missing the humanness of it. And so that's what I 0:53:34.610 --> 0:53:39.990 got to see. And also Angola is beautiful. We forget 0:53:40.330 --> 0:53:44.650 to mention that it's 18,000 acres of rolling farmland. It 0:53:44.710 --> 0:53:48.150 is gorgeous land. It was a plantation. It's fertile soil. 0:53:49.050 --> 0:53:54.270 And the juxtaposition of that beauty and the pain that's 0:53:54.410 --> 0:53:58.420 on that land is really It's just profound. It's staggering. 0:53:59.820 --> 0:54:04.569 See, that is the emotional connection. That is the complexity 0:54:04.610 --> 0:54:07.870 of the human experience. And very much, you know, what 0:54:08.110 --> 0:54:14.100 I'm hoping to help do with this podcast is to 0:54:14.300 --> 0:54:19.379 show that emotional tether that we all have that erases 0:54:19.480 --> 0:54:23.089 the us and the them. Because what you just said 0:54:23.150 --> 0:54:26.040 goes right back to we're all victims of victims. And 0:54:26.080 --> 0:54:31.220 if you understand that legacy of trauma and that domino effect, 0:54:31.260 --> 0:54:37.410 that ripple effect it has, it just makes it more 0:54:37.530 --> 0:54:42.589 possible for us to create a better world with all 0:54:42.630 --> 0:54:46.150 of the people who are already in it, as opposed 0:54:46.190 --> 0:54:50.620 to picking and choosing and viewing people as dispensable. Going 0:54:50.660 --> 0:54:54.180 back to the show, Greg, if you can just explain 0:54:54.260 --> 0:54:58.250 to me where the name for the play came from 0:54:58.870 --> 0:55:00.770 and who Wing Ding is. 0:55:01.170 --> 0:55:03.670 Yeah, Wing Ding was the guy that slept next to me, 0:55:03.710 --> 0:55:08.279 you know, and he was someone that always had some 0:55:08.300 --> 0:55:11.640 words of wisdom. He always quick to make people laugh, 0:55:11.660 --> 0:55:13.620 you know, but he used to always get on me, 0:55:13.640 --> 0:55:17.000 you know, because he figured, you smart, you smart, you know, 0:55:17.040 --> 0:55:19.600 but You're fighting a shark in the water, you know. 0:55:20.340 --> 0:55:23.500 I had no idea what he was talking about. You 0:55:23.540 --> 0:55:26.540 grit your teeth at night. You sleep with your fist 0:55:26.580 --> 0:55:29.500 ball up. You see, those are signs that you're fighting 0:55:29.520 --> 0:55:31.279 a shark in the water, you know. I mean, he 0:55:31.340 --> 0:55:33.109 used to really get on my nerve with that. 0:55:33.270 --> 0:55:35.730 Never fight a shark in the water. You got to 0:55:35.770 --> 0:55:38.150 get him on land. I'm like, man, what is you 0:55:38.190 --> 0:55:38.870 talking about? 0:55:38.890 --> 0:55:41.989 I ain't fighting no sharks. He's like, yeah, you're fighting 0:55:42.010 --> 0:55:44.469 them sharks in the water. It just occurred to me 0:55:44.570 --> 0:55:48.140 one day that I said, yeah, it's just like Wayne 0:55:48.180 --> 0:55:50.400 Dang used to say, you never fight a shark in water. 0:55:50.440 --> 0:55:52.660 The only way you could really get him is to 0:55:52.680 --> 0:55:55.670 get him on land. And it just stayed with me, 0:55:55.710 --> 0:55:56.029 you know. 0:55:56.770 --> 0:56:03.330 Even you explaining how, because the play really shows the 0:56:03.410 --> 0:56:08.879 triumph of the human spirit over adversity, over trauma. But 0:56:09.260 --> 0:56:13.939 I viewed fighting a shark in water was basically giving 0:56:13.980 --> 0:56:18.049 into anger. Yeah. that it's you're setting yourself up for 0:56:18.110 --> 0:56:21.160 failure if you give in to anger. And that's what 0:56:21.239 --> 0:56:27.839 you were able to overcome. Laura, do you see parallels 0:56:28.040 --> 0:56:32.500 in terms of Greg's giving up on his anger with 0:56:32.580 --> 0:56:36.720 you basically refusing to identify solely as a victim? 0:56:38.120 --> 0:56:38.620 Yeah. 0:56:38.940 --> 0:56:41.880 Anger is a dead end. There's nowhere to go. I 0:56:43.180 --> 0:56:46.400 use the word compassion a lot. Compassion is is simply 0:56:46.560 --> 0:56:51.339 recognizing suffering and being motivated to help. It's not condoning 0:56:51.400 --> 0:56:54.560 bad behavior. It's not even the same as forgiveness. It's 0:56:54.580 --> 0:56:58.359 just recognizing suffering and being motivated to help. And that's 0:56:58.380 --> 0:57:00.890 a visionary stance because you have to see all the 0:57:00.930 --> 0:57:05.930 way beyond the suffering. Anger, there's nowhere to see beyond it. 0:57:06.390 --> 0:57:10.450 Greg and I both giving ourselves the opportunity to have 0:57:10.489 --> 0:57:13.860 a little bit of emotional relief I think that's the 0:57:13.960 --> 0:57:16.470 essence of our lives. And then we put that into 0:57:16.490 --> 0:57:19.030 the play. I think Greg and I, you know, we 0:57:19.050 --> 0:57:22.310 were both kidnapped in different ways. Greg was kidnapped for 0:57:22.350 --> 0:57:25.550 a really long time. We don't call it that, but 0:57:25.590 --> 0:57:27.650 that's in fact what it was. He was taken from 0:57:27.690 --> 0:57:29.820 his home and he was held for 27 and a 0:57:29.860 --> 0:57:34.480 half years. And inside of that 27 years, Greg lived 0:57:34.520 --> 0:57:37.140 a full life of all the emotional highs and lows 0:57:37.200 --> 0:57:41.930 that come with life. And so, I hope that that 0:57:41.990 --> 0:57:45.800 comes through in our conversations and in the play because 0:57:46.300 --> 0:57:49.740 we keep coming back to the truth is in the complexity. 0:57:49.860 --> 0:57:54.030 And as soon as we try to simplify any experience, 0:57:54.090 --> 0:57:57.130 even the experience of anger, we're in territory that just 0:57:57.870 --> 0:58:02.160 maybe isn't as rich as we want it to be. 0:58:02.180 --> 0:58:03.440 As authentic. 0:58:03.480 --> 0:58:04.520 As authentic, yeah. 0:58:05.720 --> 0:58:09.440 What does your friendship mean to both of you? And Greg, 0:58:09.520 --> 0:58:11.060 I'll let you go first. 0:58:11.580 --> 0:58:11.900 Oh, yeah. 0:58:12.000 --> 0:58:14.620 It's been really life-changing, you know what I mean? Laura 0:58:14.680 --> 0:58:17.860 has taught me a lot. I've had the opportunity, the 0:58:17.900 --> 0:58:23.400 chance to release a lot of positive energy. The healing 0:58:23.460 --> 0:58:31.000 has been something that was never offered in any way 0:58:31.720 --> 0:58:36.800 from the people who was responsible for this. And The 0:58:36.860 --> 0:58:41.740 play is something that I feel real strong about and 0:58:42.080 --> 0:58:47.930 I feel that it's a special thing being able to 0:58:48.240 --> 0:58:53.850 share that experience with people and not bring these emotions, 0:58:53.990 --> 0:58:57.550 being free of these emotions. I can express it as 0:58:57.770 --> 0:59:00.370 I don't get angry with the lady who testified against 0:59:00.410 --> 0:59:00.930 me when I. 0:59:00.910 --> 0:59:01.490 Do the play. 0:59:02.090 --> 0:59:05.790 I don't get angry with the judge or the police officer. 0:59:05.830 --> 0:59:10.000 I don't get angry with them. As far as I care, 0:59:10.020 --> 0:59:13.180 they can be sitting in the audience. My only purpose 0:59:13.220 --> 0:59:17.000 here is to help. My purpose is not here to 0:59:17.220 --> 0:59:17.860 hurt anyone. 0:59:18.640 --> 0:59:19.300 Absolutely. 0:59:19.460 --> 0:59:20.120 Yeah. 0:59:20.460 --> 0:59:24.280 Gosh, like all great relationships. You know, Greg has lots 0:59:24.320 --> 0:59:26.510 of roles in my life. He's a friend. He's an 0:59:26.550 --> 0:59:29.110 amazing collaborator. He's a guide, a teacher. 0:59:29.130 --> 0:59:29.410 A wise person. 0:59:30.600 --> 0:59:33.220 One, you know, we worked really hard for a long 0:59:33.260 --> 0:59:37.100 time on this, and then we put it down. We 0:59:37.140 --> 0:59:40.920 also weren't in each other's lives as much. Years have 0:59:40.960 --> 0:59:44.570 gone by when we have just had a small touch 0:59:45.120 --> 0:59:48.910 in each other's lives. And interestingly, being invited into this 0:59:48.970 --> 0:59:52.610 conversation and also being invited to put the play back 0:59:52.830 --> 0:59:56.790 on in September has brought Greg and I back, not 0:59:56.810 --> 0:59:59.920 just to the conversation about wrongful conviction, but back to 0:59:59.960 --> 1:00:03.410 each other. So it's really special and wonderful. And yeah, 1:00:03.430 --> 1:00:05.430 it feels really super good. It feels great. 1:00:06.690 --> 1:00:10.470 I can't tell you the joy that fills my soul with, 1:00:10.570 --> 1:00:13.850 but also the fact that you are going to perform 1:00:13.890 --> 1:00:17.440 the play again this fall. Can you give me details 1:00:17.520 --> 1:00:19.940 so that we can link to it? And I hope 1:00:19.980 --> 1:00:20.980 to be there in person. 1:00:21.020 --> 1:00:22.720 Oh, that would be wonderful. We would love for you 1:00:22.740 --> 1:00:23.220 to be there. 1:00:23.240 --> 1:00:23.780 Yes, yes. 1:00:24.160 --> 1:00:28.070 The New Orleans Historic Collection is mounting an exhibition about 1:00:28.090 --> 1:00:30.930 the history of incarceration in Louisiana. It's going to open 1:00:30.970 --> 1:00:34.130 in September, and Greg has been invited to perform Never 1:00:34.170 --> 1:00:37.390 Fight a Shark as part of their programming. It'll be 1:00:37.910 --> 1:00:43.380 the middle of September, and Greg will be offering three performances. 1:00:43.400 --> 1:00:44.020 Yes. 1:00:44.670 --> 1:00:46.130 Oh, I'm going to figure out a way that I 1:00:46.170 --> 1:00:47.470 can be sitting in that audience. 1:00:47.490 --> 1:00:48.450 Fantastic. 1:00:48.730 --> 1:00:51.430 Thank you guys so much for your time today. It 1:00:51.670 --> 1:00:53.630 is such a pleasure to speak with both of you. 1:00:53.650 --> 1:00:54.330 Thank you so much. 1:00:54.430 --> 1:00:56.490 Thank you so much. Really appreciate it. 1:00:57.080 --> 1:00:59.740 And in the show description, we will include links to 1:00:59.780 --> 1:01:03.680 both Greg's upcoming performances and a filmed excerpt of Never 1:01:03.740 --> 1:01:06.120 Fight a Shark in Water, as well as one to 1:01:06.160 --> 1:01:20.380 Lara Naughton's compelling memoir, The Jaguar Man. Thank you for 1:01:20.420 --> 1:01:24.440 listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm Lauren Bright Pacheco. Please support 1:01:24.480 --> 1:01:27.360 your local innocence organizations and go to the links in 1:01:27.400 --> 1:01:30.370 the episode description to see how you can help. I'd 1:01:30.410 --> 1:01:34.090 like to thank our executive producers, Jason Flom, Jeff Kempler, 1:01:34.270 --> 1:01:38.010 and Kevin Wardus, as well as our producers, Annie Chelsea, 1:01:38.450 --> 1:01:42.640 Kathleen Fink, and Jackie Pauley. This series is produced, edited, 1:01:42.780 --> 1:01:46.120 and hosted by me, Lauren Bright Pacheco. Our senior producer 1:01:46.260 --> 1:01:50.470 is Cara Kornhaber. Story editing by Hannah Beale. Researched by 1:01:50.550 --> 1:01:54.850 Shelby Sorrells. Mixing and sound design by Nick Massetti with 1:01:54.890 --> 1:01:58.670 additional production by Jeff Clybourne. Our theme music is by 1:01:58.730 --> 1:02:01.830 Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us across all social 1:02:01.850 --> 1:02:05.730 media platforms at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction. 1:02:06.170 --> 1:02:08.790 You can also follow me on all platforms at Lauren 1:02:08.810 --> 1:02:12.140 Bright Pacheco. Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for 1:02:12.180 --> 1:02:15.580 Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company No. 1.