WEBVTT - Jane Mayer on Thomas, Trump, and Twitter 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:06.400 I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. 0:00:08.280 --> 0:00:11.440 Journalist Jane Mayer has been a thorn in the side 0:00:11.880 --> 0:00:16.360 of three presidents, two Supreme Court justices, and one dubious 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:21.280 news network. The pieces she writes for The New Yorker 0:00:21.720 --> 0:00:26.080 and the books that dive even deeper, are complete and definitive. 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:32.080 Her work on torture tarnished the presidency of George W. Bush, 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:36.320 but she was no gentler while reporting on Obama's whistleblower 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:41.360 prosecutions or his expanded use of predator drones. The corruption 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:45.080 in the Trump administration, of course, is proving rich fodder 0:00:45.240 --> 0:00:51.239 as well. Mayor rose to national prominence digging into the 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:55.360 Anita Hill Clarence Thomas story, a story she entered without 0:00:55.400 --> 0:01:00.840 prejudice and reported straight down the middle. She emerged a 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:05.800 polarizing national figure, bloodied by the right wing political attack machine. 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:10.720 Yet she has avoided becoming polarized herself. She still digs 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:14.680 in whenever she smells something hidden. There is that famous 0:01:14.920 --> 0:01:17.600 line from All the King's Men, that wonder for wonderful 0:01:17.600 --> 0:01:22.440 book about politics, which says, there's something on everybody. For 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:25.080 the for the record, we're all human and of course, 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:27.720 people do things they're embarrassed about. I think a lot 0:01:27.760 --> 0:01:30.320 of what interests me is how people deal with that. 0:01:30.840 --> 0:01:33.880 For instance, when I was just covering Kavanaugh recently in 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:37.800 his confirmation hearings, he was being accused of behaving horribly 0:01:37.880 --> 0:01:41.480 in high school towards women, and I thought it was 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:45.880 possible that if he had said, yes, I did, and 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:48.680 I've outgrown it, you know, I now respect women, and 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:52.760 I'm so sorry I was immature, that the public might 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:56.160 have cut in the slack. But to me, what was worse, 0:01:56.280 --> 0:01:58.760 almost than what he'd done in the first place, was 0:01:59.120 --> 0:02:01.760 my conviction, by the end of doing all this reporting 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:04.200 on him, that he was lying under oath to get confirmed. 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:07.680 Because what kind of adult, this many years later, lies 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:10.200 under oath to get confirmed someone who you don't want 0:02:10.240 --> 0:02:13.320 on the Supreme Court. There is something on almost everyone. 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:15.720 But the question is how do we deal with our mistakes? 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:18.440 Have we learned from them? I think you can convince 0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:22.480 the public, you can get support if you if you're sympathetic, 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:26.440 empathetic and and and you can try and and self 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:29.400 critical to some extent. You're still writing about Kavin or 0:02:29.400 --> 0:02:32.080 doing some work involved with Kavanaugh, correct well, there was 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:37.160 someone who Um, there was another witness and another episode 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:40.720 involving him and and his treatment towards women that was 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:44.880 really alarming. And uh Ronan Pharaoh and I were working 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:46.799 on stories on this and we were unable to get 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:48.680 somebody on the record to talk about it. But he 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:52.519 was a very good witness. And UM, I think actually 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:56.160 they're going to be it's a it's a heat. There's 0:02:56.160 --> 0:02:58.120 several books coming out, and I think some of the 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:00.840 books are going to out this subject. Um. I may 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:02.919 do some more work on it myself, but I think 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:05.520 the public will eventually get more of a story here. 0:03:05.680 --> 0:03:07.919 I mean, in one sense, I guess in terms of 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:10.399 the work you do, I'm guessing this doesn't really matter ultimately, 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:14.040 but you know, he's in he's confirmed, he's got that job, 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:17.760 so further examinations of what he in particular has done 0:03:17.760 --> 0:03:20.480 would result in what I'm glad you asked this question 0:03:20.480 --> 0:03:23.520 because this gets to the mindset of reporters like myself, 0:03:23.560 --> 0:03:26.720 which is we're not driving an agenda to try to 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:31.560 get Kavanaugh off the court. The whole point of what 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:35.160 people like me do is get the fact and get 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:37.160 the truth and get it out in front of the 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:40.000 public and then we're in a democracy, and I really 0:03:40.000 --> 0:03:42.680 believe if people have good information, then make good choices. 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:44.400 I don't know what will come of it, but in 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:48.640 its own right, it's just worth knowing what was true 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:51.800 and getting the history down. Now, we were doing the 0:03:51.880 --> 0:03:54.840 research and we were talking about how during the period 0:03:54.880 --> 0:03:57.120 with the Kavanaugh book, it was kind of an implication 0:03:57.280 --> 0:03:59.720 in some of what we read that you do this 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:02.440 with Ronan. It was kind of an arranged marriage. You 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:05.880 weren't really you hadn't really collaborated with him before, and 0:04:06.160 --> 0:04:09.080 when the time came for you to draw out the women, 0:04:09.480 --> 0:04:11.440 you kind of stepped back and let him do that. 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:16.000 Just want to say it's true. And we had done 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:20.280 one story before that was also a me too type story, 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:23.479 which was the Eric Schneiderman story. I kind of called 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:27.279 him in for extra help on dealing with the women. 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:31.040 And the truth is that Ronan is like the me 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:35.680 too whisperer. I mean, women love to talk to him 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:40.120 about this subject and he's endlessly good at drawing people out. 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:43.479 He is very empathetic. He's a result of this other 0:04:43.520 --> 0:04:46.479 situation with his family. I have to guess it probably is. 0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:50.960 I mean, he's also just a handsome person. Um well 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:52.919 he is, you know, he walks into a room and 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:57.240 he's there and so. And I was less good at it. 0:04:57.640 --> 0:05:00.440 I mean, I'm a kind of like an investigative type 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:04.679 who's not afraid of anybody, but I'm not the best 0:05:04.760 --> 0:05:08.560 hand holder. But it this way. In my family, my 0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:10.680 husband was the one that helped the kid with the 0:05:10.720 --> 0:05:14.279 homework because I was too tough. I would just say 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:16.320 I'd be too critical and say, you know, you want 0:05:16.360 --> 0:05:17.960 it to be good or do you want me to 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:22.679 just tell you have said that exactly. Ronan is better 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:27.160 at dealing with the personal crises that these women were 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:30.279 going through, and I was better at sort of seeing 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:35.320 the holes in the stories of the liars Kavanaugh. Was 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:37.200 there a point you knew he said? Or did you 0:05:37.240 --> 0:05:40.200 not know? I did not. Now I'm you know, someone 0:05:40.279 --> 0:05:43.200 said to me that reporters are the last naives. I 0:05:43.279 --> 0:05:47.800 always think that if people get the information, it will matter, 0:05:48.120 --> 0:05:50.640 that the truth really matters. I think maybe in this 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:53.359 case people might have a lot of people may have 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:56.320 even known the truth here. They may have suspected or 0:05:56.320 --> 0:05:58.880 even thought that Kavanaugh wasn't telling the truth, and they 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:02.360 wanted to confirm them a way he stood for positions 0:06:02.400 --> 0:06:05.000 that they had. I think it was as much as anything, 0:06:05.440 --> 0:06:09.200 it was the anti abortion movement that was behind. You 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:11.839 could just feel it was like a like a political 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:15.400 freight train coming at you. And even and the process, 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:19.440 it wasn't a serious process. It was a mock trial 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:25.360 with a fake FBI investigation where the FBI literally did 0:06:25.400 --> 0:06:27.800 not call people. I was talking to people who were 0:06:27.800 --> 0:06:30.760 calling the FBI trying to get their information to the FBI, 0:06:31.000 --> 0:06:33.400 and the FBI would not call them back. But even 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:37.640 though I'm uncertain about how to characterize Comy historically, is 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:40.240 there any institution in this country that's more tattered its 0:06:40.279 --> 0:06:43.080 reputation than the FBI right now? It's almost unbelievable. Well, 0:06:43.120 --> 0:06:46.280 it is partly though, also because you know, the President 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:50.480 keeps whacking at it because it's been investigating him, so 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:54.159 it's gotten it from all sides. Um, you know, I'm 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:56.400 with you on the subject of Comy. He's a very 0:06:56.440 --> 0:07:00.240 confusing character. The FBI had improved itself a lot since 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:03.000 the days of j Edgar Hoover, when it really was 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:07.920 practically a criminal organization in its own right. So, um, 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:10.400 I mean, what I worry about as much as anything 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:14.880 about this is just that President Trump is busy delegitimizing 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:18.480 every single kind of organization that could put a check 0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:21.040 on his power. And part of that is the FBI, 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:24.280 and of course part of that is we the enemies 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:28.240 of the American people in the press. Um, where were 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:31.800 you working and who pulled you into the Anita Hill event? So? 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:33.960 I was at the Wall Street Journal. I was a 0:07:34.000 --> 0:07:36.640 staff writer for the Wall Street Journal for twelve years. 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:38.480 And I want to pau out there and say, before 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:40.640 you go further, what was the journal like back then 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:46.760 in nineteen um different? It was different, It wasn't owned 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:49.679 by Rupert Murdoch. Was actually kind of a funky, cool 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:52.400 place in its way. There was, I mean, there was 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:55.239 the whole business part of it that covered the business 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:56.960 world in a big way, and that was the main 0:07:57.120 --> 0:07:58.960 sort of bread and butter of it. But there were 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:02.559 also these wonderful, quirky feature writers there and a few 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:05.920 really great editors. And I was assigned to the front 0:08:05.920 --> 0:08:08.520 page at some point, where we just wrote these wonderful 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:11.600 front page stories, some of which were very funny, and 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:14.400 and we had a pretty good time. We also had 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:18.600 an endless budget. We wasted so much money on traffling 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:22.240 I do it was it was a lot of fun 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:24.720 um so um. You know, it had a very conservative 0:08:24.800 --> 0:08:29.360 editorial page, but it had top um level talent the 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:32.400 editing staff and and and some of the writers. So 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:35.160 so anyway, I was I was posted in Washington for them. 0:08:35.200 --> 0:08:37.800 I had been covering the Reagan White House, and I 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:41.400 um was watching the Anita Hill and Clarence Thomas hearings. 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:44.320 And Jill Abramson and I had been friends since middle 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:47.360 school and we went to the Fieldston School in New York, 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:49.320 and we've been wanting to do a book together just 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:53.000 for fun. So I was glued to these hearings. They 0:08:53.000 --> 0:08:55.920 were just mind blowing, and I called up Jill and 0:08:55.960 --> 0:08:58.040 I said, come on, this is it. This is our subject. 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:01.679 And so we just kind of jumped for it um 0:09:01.760 --> 0:09:04.560 And then we didn't realize it took us three years, 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:06.880 the two of us, to get to the bottom of 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:11.160 that very confusing sort of mystery of who did what 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:13.480 to whom and what's true and in some of the 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:16.360 approach that you developed then was your first book in 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:20.040 that area? Did it carry over on into Kavanaugh? Well, 0:09:20.080 --> 0:09:22.760 I learned some things from it, because what we found out. 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:25.240 I think that the most surprising thing we found out 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:29.280 was that Clarence Thomas had a long pattern of behavior 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:32.040 so on on issues having to do with sex, people 0:09:32.120 --> 0:09:35.200 usually have patterns of behavior. And the other thing was 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:38.439 that because of that, there were other women, and if 0:09:38.480 --> 0:09:41.240 the other women had stepped forward, I think people would 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:44.000 have believed in need a hill more. And there were 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:47.360 other women who wanted to testify and they didn't get 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:50.680 a chance. Well, Joe Biden was the chairman of the 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:55.600 Senate Judiciary Committee, and he was quite outmaneuvered by the Republicans, 0:09:55.640 --> 0:09:58.240 even though he was the Democrats were in the majority 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:01.880 and he was in charge, but they just wanted that 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:03.840 all to go away. He kind of did want it 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:06.360 to all go away. He was uncomfortable with the subject. 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:09.920 This was a long time ago and people didn't really 0:10:09.960 --> 0:10:12.360 even have that much of a grasp of what sexual 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:14.680 harassment was and some of the jargon obviously, you know, 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:16.280 we don't need to go into it now, but the 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:19.280 titles of the films he watched and all that kind 0:10:19.320 --> 0:10:22.200 of vulgarity, it was really put people off when it 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:24.720 was on TV back then. I will ever forget it 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:26.960 seemed like something the whole country wanted it to go away. 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:30.440 They kind of did. It was it was embarrassing all around. 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:34.680 And um, I have to say it meant that that 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:36.840 Jill and I had to become quite expert on the 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:42.080 subject of Clarence Thomas's pornographic and we even rented one 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:45.719 of his favorite movies, Long Dunk Silver. Uh No, it 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:51.000 was bad Mama Jama and uh and we sort of, 0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:54.120 you know, shoot the kids out of the room. Hours 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:57.520 later whenever it ended that the you know, the credits 0:10:57.559 --> 0:11:01.760 were running above, Jill and I were sound asleep. It 0:11:01.840 --> 0:11:05.840 was the most boring porn movie ever. So, but any anyway, Um, 0:11:06.480 --> 0:11:08.840 it was unusual research, and it was a subject that 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:13.000 made people uncomfortable. And I think, um, it's specifically made 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:16.120 Biden uncomfortable, and it's something that's going to haunt him 0:11:16.160 --> 0:11:20.000 because people's views on all these things have really become 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:24.920 much more critical and and of of and much less 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:27.360 tolerant of that kind of behavior in the office place. 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:29.800 And also when you're not answering that question, people are 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:33.079 assuming that you are covering something up. For Biden, that's 0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:35.960 an example of something people want an answer from him. 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:39.440 What responsibility do you bear You were the chairman of 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:42.560 the Judiciary Committee during the Clarence Thomas herrings. Do you 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:45.440 think the truth was unearthed with the truth made bear 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:48.200 on that committee? And if not, why, what responsibility do 0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:50.840 you bear if everybody feels like, especially if there's like 0:11:50.880 --> 0:11:53.720 sedimentary layers in the media that's gone by. Oh that 0:11:53.840 --> 0:11:55.520 was so long though, we don't need to answer to 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:57.800 that now we asked an answered, And I want to 0:11:57.840 --> 0:11:59.559 go with Biden. I want to go not really not 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:02.400 really know. And his statement on it where he said 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:04.800 I wished I could have done more, well, I have 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:07.360 to say, as someone who really looked closely at the record, 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:11.520 then he absolutely could have done more. No one stopped 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:14.880 him but himself. Do you think that what happened with 0:12:14.920 --> 0:12:18.360 Thomas is responsible for his kind of uh seething with 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:21.840 bitterness even think he's very bitter. Yeah, I do. And 0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:25.520 I think that that he's filled with resentment towards the 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:29.400 people who questioned him. And uh, you know, so, yes, 0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:31.720 I do as an asterisk. And he's bitter about it, 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:34.960 and I think that and and he doesn't speak about it, 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:37.599 but sometimes his wife does, you know, she becomes the 0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:40.120 voice of it. She keeps a list, she keeps well 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:42.840 and and she literally called Anita Hill at some point 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:44.960 and said, you know, isn't it time for you to 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:48.880 come forward and confess? It's ever present in his mind. 0:12:48.920 --> 0:12:53.200 It seems like, um, you did that during the time 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:55.640 you were at the journal. I took a leave. I 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:58.800 think Jill somehow managed to keep doing her job while 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:01.959 she well, liking a paycheck. I was sort of meanwhile, 0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:04.120 she was at the times that now she was at 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:07.040 the journal to at that point. Yeah, and um, so 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:09.920 it took us, as I said, three years, and I 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:12.040 almost went back to the journal. I had a baby 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:15.080 during that period, so there were a few distractions. Um, 0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:18.199 but I wound up going to the New Yorker instead, 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:20.280 never went back to the journal. How did your work 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:22.720 as a journalist changed during that period? Did you change 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:26.800 during the any Dail experience? I think I became more 0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:31.560 and more committed to this idea of of total rigor 0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:36.080 just talking to everybody you possibly can, chasing like every 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:39.920 little scrap I became. It was, Yeah, it was, And 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:42.839 I love I love Carol. Someone asked him he was 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:46.640 speaking up at Harvard at some function about how do 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:50.600 you get the stories you get, I mean, and he said, 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:55.400 there's only one ingredient, really, and it's time. It takes 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:59.280 time to get people to talk to you. They often 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:02.160 don't tell you everything the first time you meet them, 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:04.480 and you have to go back and back and back, 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:08.360 and eventually most people really do want to tell you 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:11.040 what's what they really know, but they're not going to 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:19.160 tell to you. They wore a board themselves, maybe, but 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:21.280 but we're not getting that kind of reporting a lot 0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:24.720 of the time because we're getting tweets that take less 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:28.600 than a second. Practically, that's responsible. I mean, I think 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:31.160 you know what the big change in journalism is. It's 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:33.960 moving faster and faster from the time when I started, 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:36.320 when you would write long stories for the front page 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:38.120 of the Wall Street Journal and take weeks on them, 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:41.280 and then long books. You know that the pressure is 0:14:41.320 --> 0:14:44.520 to file many many times a day, and and and 0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:47.240 you can't possibly talk to all the people or even 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:49.280 get to the bottom of anything. You just sort of 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:51.200 throw it up against the wall and see what sticks. 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:53.600 And and magazines that like my friends of mine whore like, 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:55.520 how do you find time to read The New Yorker? 0:14:55.560 --> 0:14:56.880 And I mean, I said, well, I have a stack 0:14:56.880 --> 0:14:58.520 of them, and I read them on a plane for 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:00.760 like four hours. When I fly at l It's good 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:04.120 you fly because I hear the main reason people um 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:07.200 kill their subscriptions to The New Yorker is guilt. The 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:10.280 old issues are piling up and they feel so guilty. 0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:13.640 So you need those long translat home right now. And 0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:18.360 so with Hill, it made you more um. The book 0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:22.720 came out when soon after that to Tina Brown contact you, 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:26.880 she I'm trying to think she actually talked to me 0:15:26.880 --> 0:15:29.360 a little before it came out, because I wound up 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:33.920 doing a review of another book about the Clarence Thomas story, Rock, 0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:38.160 David Brock's book. Yeah, and that's that caught her attention 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:42.720 and described what happened with Bro's book and your own words, Well, 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:45.720 Brock came out. This is David Brock, who used to 0:15:45.760 --> 0:15:49.480 be a right wing um journalist and kind of a 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:53.040 hitman in his own words, and he came out with 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:56.200 the book claiming that Anita Hill was, as he put it, 0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:58.920 a little bit nutty and a little bit slutty, and 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:02.120 that she was a NATO maniac who had made up 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:05.480 these things and it was defending Clarence Thomas. What proof 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:09.200 did he offer, Well, Um, he twisted a bunch of things, 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:14.000 and um. The reason I wound up reviewing his book. 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:16.640 I didn't want to originally because it's kind of unethical 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:19.760 feeling in some ways to review a competitor's book. So 0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:23.280 I first said no, But then I realized that people 0:16:23.320 --> 0:16:25.520 were beginning to believe him, and that I was one 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:27.640 of the only people who knew that what he was 0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:30.880 saying was a lie because I'd done the same reporting, 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:34.080 and so I felt some sort of responsibility to say, 0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:37.480 whoa watch out, this is not true. And so we 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:39.560 So Jill and I did this review together for The 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:43.880 New Yorker, and we we basically busted David Brock, and 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:48.080 it was my first encounter with the right wing. Really 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:51.800 they did that. David Brock wrote a cover story on 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:54.520 Jill and myself and it was an eight thousand words 0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:58.560 story in The American Spectator that described us as complete 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:05.680 frauds and liars. Who funds them? Uh? Yes, it gets 0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:08.320 you back in the end of the day to a 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:12.120 handful of huge funders of right wing politics, and he 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:15.159 was kind of their handmaiden. It was very It's become 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:19.320 an incredibly weird story because he changed his whole politics, 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:23.000 that is, David Brock did and turned around and admitted 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:27.040 years later that he was wrong, that he had lied, 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:30.920 that Anita Hill did tell the truth that Clarence Thomas 0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:33.960 he believes did not, and he actually came out and 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:38.520 apologized to both Um Jill Abramson and myself and to 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:43.359 Anita Hill. So it was really an unusual situation. You 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:46.120 never get an apology in life. It was really crazy. 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:49.919 Did you run into him since his reformation? I have 0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:52.560 seen him. You see him in Washington all the time. 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:55.760 It's a little town. Are you pals? I wouldn't say 0:17:55.800 --> 0:18:01.000 we're pal, but but his former boy friend always comps 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:02.800 me at his restaurant. I think they still feel a 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:07.119 little guilty. Yeah. Um, it's a weird story. Part of 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:08.920 getting older, one of the great things is you live 0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:13.760 to see these plot twists. You couldn't believe. That's so so. 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:19.080 Tina comes ringing while you're doing the Brock review, which 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:21.360 is a feather in your cap. Obviously, people were very 0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:23.640 very taken that you did that. She was very excited 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:27.800 about it and ut to come out. My book hadn't 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:31.560 yet come out, but I immediately, um, I mean the 0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:34.000 minute she showed any interest. I was out living in 0:18:34.040 --> 0:18:36.879 Santa Monica at that point. I got on a plane 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:40.359 and zoomed into New York to have an interview with 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:43.200 her and try to get My husband was the West 0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:48.760 Coast bureau chief for the Washington Post and covering out 0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:54.680 there please, I'll say, Holly, what I'm gonna throw up? Quakes, 0:18:55.040 --> 0:18:58.919 all of that kind of I was there. I'm standing 0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:02.680 there in my driveway in my underwear, really, and I'm 0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:04.879 in my driveway and as I look out in the hills. 0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:06.439 I live in the valley with my ex wife, and 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:08.280 we look out over the valley and you see the 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:11.680 flames like gas pipes that erupted and flames are shooting 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:15.280 up almost volcanically into the air. It's dawn, it's still dark, 0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:17.120 and all of a sudden, I hear a voice behind 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:19.680 my go go hey. And I turned as a man 0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:23.120 with an enormous wrench in his hand and a bathrobe, 0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:25.919 and I just just the image was like kind of 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:29.480 a like a like a like a Freddy Krueger movie. 0:19:29.560 --> 0:19:31.440 And I turned and went ah and and he said, 0:19:31.440 --> 0:19:33.679 you want me to turn off your gas? And he 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:36.359 was going down the block and turning off the gas 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:39.240 of everybody's houses before their houses blew up. It was 0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:42.160 really scary for East and you're an East Coast person 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:45.639 originally too, I have it's a horror movie to have 0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:51.879 the earth suddenly splitting open beneath your feet. New Yorker 0:19:52.040 --> 0:19:56.399 writer Jane Mayor has seen her share of horror early 0:19:56.520 --> 0:19:59.600 in her career. She was reporting in Beirut for The 0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:04.160 Walls Street Journal when Hezbollah killed three people near where 0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:08.080 she was staying. She says that witnessing the aftermath of 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:10.800 that attack will haunt her for the rest of her life. 0:20:11.960 --> 0:20:15.679 Talking with great journalists about their early careers as one 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:19.320 of my favorite pastimes. My friend on the media host 0:20:19.359 --> 0:20:24.399 Bob Garfield, has an unfailing moral compass, but he wasn't 0:20:24.400 --> 0:20:26.639 born with it. I didn't go to Jay school. I 0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:32.119 was an English majorum, but happily blundered into journalism. Knew 0:20:32.240 --> 0:20:34.399 literally from the first morning that that's just what I 0:20:34.440 --> 0:20:36.800 wanted to do. But I wasn't even trained in basic 0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:40.679 journalism ethics. So on the one hand that hurt you. 0:20:42.280 --> 0:20:45.560 I did some things as a young journalist that we're 0:20:45.600 --> 0:20:49.640 firing offenses, encouraged by my own newspaper. Give me any example, 0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:52.680 you know, I would need to tires from my car 0:20:52.720 --> 0:20:55.359 in my city. Editor who was corrupt sent me to 0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:58.840 the rest of that conversation can be found in our 0:20:58.960 --> 0:21:15.200 archives at Here's the Thing dot org. This is Alec Baldwin, 0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:19.359 and you were listening to Here's the Thing today. Jane 0:21:19.400 --> 0:21:24.000 Mayer's name is synonymous with the deep, investigative journalism of 0:21:24.040 --> 0:21:28.720 the New Yorker, But in when the new editor in chief, 0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:33.480 Tina Brown called her mayor couldn't believe her luck. I 0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:36.920 got my resume together like in ten seconds, and um, 0:21:36.920 --> 0:21:39.080 when she offered me a job, it was it was 0:21:39.119 --> 0:21:40.879 sort of kind of dream come true to go to 0:21:40.920 --> 0:21:44.320 the New Yorker. She was just putting her team together. 0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:48.400 It was relatively new and there was some controversation when 0:21:48.440 --> 0:21:51.240 she took over designing, though no I thought it was 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:53.280 going to be fantastic. I've never I don't think i'd 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:57.440 had a female boss before. Um. She was very, very 0:21:57.560 --> 0:22:01.760 very cool, bringing in all kinds of super bright. Yeah. 0:22:01.960 --> 0:22:04.800 I actually really enjoyed working for Tina Brown. She was 0:22:05.200 --> 0:22:08.320 she was kind of like, um, a producer as much 0:22:08.359 --> 0:22:10.280 as anything. She would sort of say, think of a 0:22:10.320 --> 0:22:13.680 subject and then decide which talent she wanted to get 0:22:13.720 --> 0:22:16.280 on that particular story. I mean there were you know. 0:22:16.359 --> 0:22:18.840 She also would fact you at three in the morning, 0:22:19.240 --> 0:22:22.800 so it was she was up at three in the morning. 0:22:22.840 --> 0:22:25.840 And it might be too they're both reading at three 0:22:25.880 --> 0:22:29.040