1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. 2 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: Journalist Jane Mayer has been a thorn in the side 3 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: of three presidents, two Supreme Court justices, and one dubious 4 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: news network. The pieces she writes for The New Yorker 5 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:26,080 Speaker 1: and the books that dive even deeper, are complete and definitive. 6 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: Her work on torture tarnished the presidency of George W. Bush, 7 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: but she was no gentler while reporting on Obama's whistleblower 8 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: prosecutions or his expanded use of predator drones. The corruption 9 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: in the Trump administration, of course, is proving rich fodder 10 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:51,239 Speaker 1: as well. Mayor rose to national prominence digging into the 11 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: Anita Hill Clarence Thomas story, a story she entered without 12 00:00:55,400 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: prejudice and reported straight down the middle. She emerged a 13 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: polarizing national figure, bloodied by the right wing political attack machine. 14 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: Yet she has avoided becoming polarized herself. She still digs 15 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:14,680 Speaker 1: in whenever she smells something hidden. There is that famous 16 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: line from All the King's Men, that wonder for wonderful 17 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: book about politics, which says, there's something on everybody. For 18 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: the for the record, we're all human and of course, 19 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 1: people do things they're embarrassed about. I think a lot 20 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 1: of what interests me is how people deal with that. 21 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: For instance, when I was just covering Kavanaugh recently in 22 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: his confirmation hearings, he was being accused of behaving horribly 23 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 1: in high school towards women, and I thought it was 24 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: possible that if he had said, yes, I did, and 25 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: I've outgrown it, you know, I now respect women, and 26 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: I'm so sorry I was immature, that the public might 27 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: have cut in the slack. But to me, what was worse, 28 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: almost than what he'd done in the first place, was 29 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: my conviction, by the end of doing all this reporting 30 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: on him, that he was lying under oath to get confirmed. 31 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: Because what kind of adult, this many years later, lies 32 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: under oath to get confirmed someone who you don't want 33 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: on the Supreme Court. There is something on almost everyone. 34 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: But the question is how do we deal with our mistakes? 35 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: Have we learned from them? I think you can convince 36 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: the public, you can get support if you if you're sympathetic, 37 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 1: empathetic and and and you can try and and self 38 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: critical to some extent. You're still writing about Kavin or 39 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,080 Speaker 1: doing some work involved with Kavanaugh, correct well, there was 40 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: someone who Um, there was another witness and another episode 41 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: involving him and and his treatment towards women that was 42 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: really alarming. And uh Ronan Pharaoh and I were working 43 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:46,799 Speaker 1: on stories on this and we were unable to get 44 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 1: somebody on the record to talk about it. But he 45 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:52,519 Speaker 1: was a very good witness. And UM, I think actually 46 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: they're going to be it's a it's a heat. There's 47 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 1: several books coming out, and I think some of the 48 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: books are going to out this subject. Um. I may 49 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 1: do some more work on it myself, but I think 50 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 1: the public will eventually get more of a story here. 51 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 1: I mean, in one sense, I guess in terms of 52 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:10,399 Speaker 1: the work you do, I'm guessing this doesn't really matter ultimately, 53 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: but you know, he's in he's confirmed, he's got that job, 54 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 1: so further examinations of what he in particular has done 55 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: would result in what I'm glad you asked this question 56 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 1: because this gets to the mindset of reporters like myself, 57 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: which is we're not driving an agenda to try to 58 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: get Kavanaugh off the court. The whole point of what 59 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: people like me do is get the fact and get 60 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: the truth and get it out in front of the 61 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 1: public and then we're in a democracy, and I really 62 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: believe if people have good information, then make good choices. 63 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 1: I don't know what will come of it, but in 64 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: its own right, it's just worth knowing what was true 65 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: and getting the history down. Now, we were doing the 66 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: research and we were talking about how during the period 67 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 1: with the Kavanaugh book, it was kind of an implication 68 00:03:57,280 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: in some of what we read that you do this 69 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 1: with Ronan. It was kind of an arranged marriage. You 70 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: weren't really you hadn't really collaborated with him before, and 71 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: when the time came for you to draw out the women, 72 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: you kind of stepped back and let him do that. 73 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: Just want to say it's true. And we had done 74 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:20,280 Speaker 1: one story before that was also a me too type story, 75 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:23,479 Speaker 1: which was the Eric Schneiderman story. I kind of called 76 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 1: him in for extra help on dealing with the women. 77 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 1: And the truth is that Ronan is like the me 78 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 1: too whisperer. I mean, women love to talk to him 79 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: about this subject and he's endlessly good at drawing people out. 80 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 1: He is very empathetic. He's a result of this other 81 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:46,479 Speaker 1: situation with his family. I have to guess it probably is. 82 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: I mean, he's also just a handsome person. Um well 83 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:52,919 Speaker 1: he is, you know, he walks into a room and 84 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 1: he's there and so. And I was less good at it. 85 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm a kind of like an investigative type 86 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:04,679 Speaker 1: who's not afraid of anybody, but I'm not the best 87 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: hand holder. But it this way. In my family, my 88 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: husband was the one that helped the kid with the 89 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 1: homework because I was too tough. I would just say 90 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: I'd be too critical and say, you know, you want 91 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 1: it to be good or do you want me to 92 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:22,679 Speaker 1: just tell you have said that exactly. Ronan is better 93 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:27,160 Speaker 1: at dealing with the personal crises that these women were 94 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 1: going through, and I was better at sort of seeing 95 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 1: the holes in the stories of the liars Kavanaugh. Was 96 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: there a point you knew he said? Or did you 97 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 1: not know? I did not. Now I'm you know, someone 98 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: said to me that reporters are the last naives. I 99 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 1: always think that if people get the information, it will matter, 100 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 1: that the truth really matters. I think maybe in this 101 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:53,359 Speaker 1: case people might have a lot of people may have 102 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: even known the truth here. They may have suspected or 103 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 1: even thought that Kavanaugh wasn't telling the truth, and they 104 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 1: wanted to confirm them a way he stood for positions 105 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 1: that they had. I think it was as much as anything, 106 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: it was the anti abortion movement that was behind. You 107 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 1: could just feel it was like a like a political 108 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 1: freight train coming at you. And even and the process, 109 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: it wasn't a serious process. It was a mock trial 110 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 1: with a fake FBI investigation where the FBI literally did 111 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 1: not call people. I was talking to people who were 112 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: calling the FBI trying to get their information to the FBI, 113 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: and the FBI would not call them back. But even 114 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: though I'm uncertain about how to characterize Comy historically, is 115 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 1: there any institution in this country that's more tattered its 116 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: reputation than the FBI right now? It's almost unbelievable. Well, 117 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 1: it is partly though, also because you know, the President 118 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:50,480 Speaker 1: keeps whacking at it because it's been investigating him, so 119 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:54,159 Speaker 1: it's gotten it from all sides. Um, you know, I'm 120 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: with you on the subject of Comy. He's a very 121 00:06:56,440 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: confusing character. The FBI had improved itself a lot since 122 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 1: the days of j Edgar Hoover, when it really was 123 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 1: practically a criminal organization in its own right. So, um, 124 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: I mean, what I worry about as much as anything 125 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: about this is just that President Trump is busy delegitimizing 126 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 1: every single kind of organization that could put a check 127 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: on his power. And part of that is the FBI, 128 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: and of course part of that is we the enemies 129 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: of the American people in the press. Um, where were 130 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 1: you working and who pulled you into the Anita Hill event? So? 131 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: I was at the Wall Street Journal. I was a 132 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: staff writer for the Wall Street Journal for twelve years. 133 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: And I want to pau out there and say, before 134 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: you go further, what was the journal like back then 135 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 1: in nineteen um different? It was different, It wasn't owned 136 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:49,679 Speaker 1: by Rupert Murdoch. Was actually kind of a funky, cool 137 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: place in its way. There was, I mean, there was 138 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:55,239 Speaker 1: the whole business part of it that covered the business 139 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: world in a big way, and that was the main 140 00:07:57,120 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 1: sort of bread and butter of it. But there were 141 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,559 Speaker 1: also these wonderful, quirky feature writers there and a few 142 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: really great editors. And I was assigned to the front 143 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: page at some point, where we just wrote these wonderful 144 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: front page stories, some of which were very funny, and 145 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: and we had a pretty good time. We also had 146 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: an endless budget. We wasted so much money on traffling 147 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 1: I do it was it was a lot of fun 148 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: um so um. You know, it had a very conservative 149 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: editorial page, but it had top um level talent the 150 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: editing staff and and and some of the writers. So 151 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 1: so anyway, I was I was posted in Washington for them. 152 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: I had been covering the Reagan White House, and I 153 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: um was watching the Anita Hill and Clarence Thomas hearings. 154 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 1: And Jill Abramson and I had been friends since middle 155 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: school and we went to the Fieldston School in New York, 156 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 1: and we've been wanting to do a book together just 157 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: for fun. So I was glued to these hearings. They 158 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: were just mind blowing, and I called up Jill and 159 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: I said, come on, this is it. This is our subject. 160 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,679 Speaker 1: And so we just kind of jumped for it um 161 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 1: And then we didn't realize it took us three years, 162 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: the two of us, to get to the bottom of 163 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: that very confusing sort of mystery of who did what 164 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: to whom and what's true and in some of the 165 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 1: approach that you developed then was your first book in 166 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: that area? Did it carry over on into Kavanaugh? Well, 167 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 1: I learned some things from it, because what we found out. 168 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 1: I think that the most surprising thing we found out 169 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: was that Clarence Thomas had a long pattern of behavior 170 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: so on on issues having to do with sex, people 171 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 1: usually have patterns of behavior. And the other thing was 172 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:38,439 Speaker 1: that because of that, there were other women, and if 173 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: the other women had stepped forward, I think people would 174 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: have believed in need a hill more. And there were 175 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: other women who wanted to testify and they didn't get 176 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 1: a chance. Well, Joe Biden was the chairman of the 177 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 1: Senate Judiciary Committee, and he was quite outmaneuvered by the Republicans, 178 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 1: even though he was the Democrats were in the majority 179 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: and he was in charge, but they just wanted that 180 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 1: all to go away. He kind of did want it 181 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: to all go away. He was uncomfortable with the subject. 182 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: This was a long time ago and people didn't really 183 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: even have that much of a grasp of what sexual 184 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:14,680 Speaker 1: harassment was and some of the jargon obviously, you know, 185 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 1: we don't need to go into it now, but the 186 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 1: titles of the films he watched and all that kind 187 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 1: of vulgarity, it was really put people off when it 188 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 1: was on TV back then. I will ever forget it 189 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: seemed like something the whole country wanted it to go away. 190 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 1: They kind of did. It was it was embarrassing all around. 191 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:34,680 Speaker 1: And um, I have to say it meant that that 192 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 1: Jill and I had to become quite expert on the 193 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 1: subject of Clarence Thomas's pornographic and we even rented one 194 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:45,719 Speaker 1: of his favorite movies, Long Dunk Silver. Uh No, it 195 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: was bad Mama Jama and uh and we sort of, 196 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 1: you know, shoot the kids out of the room. Hours 197 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: later whenever it ended that the you know, the credits 198 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 1: were running above, Jill and I were sound asleep. It 199 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 1: was the most boring porn movie ever. So, but any anyway, Um, 200 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 1: it was unusual research, and it was a subject that 201 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: made people uncomfortable. And I think, um, it's specifically made 202 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: Biden uncomfortable, and it's something that's going to haunt him 203 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 1: because people's views on all these things have really become 204 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: much more critical and and of of and much less 205 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: tolerant of that kind of behavior in the office place. 206 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: And also when you're not answering that question, people are 207 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:33,079 Speaker 1: assuming that you are covering something up. For Biden, that's 208 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 1: an example of something people want an answer from him. 209 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 1: What responsibility do you bear You were the chairman of 210 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 1: the Judiciary Committee during the Clarence Thomas herrings. Do you 211 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 1: think the truth was unearthed with the truth made bear 212 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 1: on that committee? And if not, why, what responsibility do 213 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 1: you bear if everybody feels like, especially if there's like 214 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 1: sedimentary layers in the media that's gone by. Oh that 215 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 1: was so long though, we don't need to answer to 216 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 1: that now we asked an answered, And I want to 217 00:11:57,840 --> 00:11:59,559 Speaker 1: go with Biden. I want to go not really not 218 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: really know. And his statement on it where he said 219 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: I wished I could have done more, well, I have 220 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: to say, as someone who really looked closely at the record, 221 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: then he absolutely could have done more. No one stopped 222 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: him but himself. Do you think that what happened with 223 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 1: Thomas is responsible for his kind of uh seething with 224 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 1: bitterness even think he's very bitter. Yeah, I do. And 225 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: I think that that he's filled with resentment towards the 226 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: people who questioned him. And uh, you know, so, yes, 227 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 1: I do as an asterisk. And he's bitter about it, 228 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 1: and I think that and and he doesn't speak about it, 229 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,599 Speaker 1: but sometimes his wife does, you know, she becomes the 230 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 1: voice of it. She keeps a list, she keeps well 231 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 1: and and she literally called Anita Hill at some point 232 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 1: and said, you know, isn't it time for you to 233 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: come forward and confess? It's ever present in his mind. 234 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 1: It seems like, um, you did that during the time 235 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 1: you were at the journal. I took a leave. I 236 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: think Jill somehow managed to keep doing her job while 237 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,959 Speaker 1: she well, liking a paycheck. I was sort of meanwhile, 238 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: she was at the times that now she was at 239 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: the journal to at that point. Yeah, and um, so 240 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: it took us, as I said, three years, and I 241 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: almost went back to the journal. I had a baby 242 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 1: during that period, so there were a few distractions. Um, 243 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:18,199 Speaker 1: but I wound up going to the New Yorker instead, 244 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: never went back to the journal. How did your work 245 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 1: as a journalist changed during that period? Did you change 246 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: during the any Dail experience? I think I became more 247 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 1: and more committed to this idea of of total rigor 248 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 1: just talking to everybody you possibly can, chasing like every 249 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: little scrap I became. It was, Yeah, it was, And 250 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:42,839 Speaker 1: I love I love Carol. Someone asked him he was 251 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 1: speaking up at Harvard at some function about how do 252 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 1: you get the stories you get, I mean, and he said, 253 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 1: there's only one ingredient, really, and it's time. It takes 254 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: time to get people to talk to you. They often 255 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 1: don't tell you everything the first time you meet them, 256 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 1: and you have to go back and back and back, 257 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: and eventually most people really do want to tell you 258 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 1: what's what they really know, but they're not going to 259 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: tell to you. They wore a board themselves, maybe, but 260 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: but we're not getting that kind of reporting a lot 261 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 1: of the time because we're getting tweets that take less 262 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: than a second. Practically, that's responsible. I mean, I think 263 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: you know what the big change in journalism is. It's 264 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: moving faster and faster from the time when I started, 265 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: when you would write long stories for the front page 266 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 1: of the Wall Street Journal and take weeks on them, 267 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: and then long books. You know that the pressure is 268 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: to file many many times a day, and and and 269 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 1: you can't possibly talk to all the people or even 270 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: get to the bottom of anything. You just sort of 271 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 1: throw it up against the wall and see what sticks. 272 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 1: And and magazines that like my friends of mine whore like, 273 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 1: how do you find time to read The New Yorker? 274 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: And I mean, I said, well, I have a stack 275 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 1: of them, and I read them on a plane for 276 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: like four hours. When I fly at l It's good 277 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 1: you fly because I hear the main reason people um 278 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 1: kill their subscriptions to The New Yorker is guilt. The 279 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 1: old issues are piling up and they feel so guilty. 280 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 1: So you need those long translat home right now. And 281 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 1: so with Hill, it made you more um. The book 282 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 1: came out when soon after that to Tina Brown contact you, 283 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: she I'm trying to think she actually talked to me 284 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: a little before it came out, because I wound up 285 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: doing a review of another book about the Clarence Thomas story, Rock, 286 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: David Brock's book. Yeah, and that's that caught her attention 287 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: and described what happened with Bro's book and your own words, Well, 288 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 1: Brock came out. This is David Brock, who used to 289 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: be a right wing um journalist and kind of a 290 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 1: hitman in his own words, and he came out with 291 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: the book claiming that Anita Hill was, as he put it, 292 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: a little bit nutty and a little bit slutty, and 293 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: that she was a NATO maniac who had made up 294 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 1: these things and it was defending Clarence Thomas. What proof 295 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: did he offer, Well, Um, he twisted a bunch of things, 296 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: and um. The reason I wound up reviewing his book. 297 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: I didn't want to originally because it's kind of unethical 298 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: feeling in some ways to review a competitor's book. So 299 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: I first said no, But then I realized that people 300 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: were beginning to believe him, and that I was one 301 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: of the only people who knew that what he was 302 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 1: saying was a lie because I'd done the same reporting, 303 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: and so I felt some sort of responsibility to say, 304 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 1: whoa watch out, this is not true. And so we 305 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: So Jill and I did this review together for The 306 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: New Yorker, and we we basically busted David Brock, and 307 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 1: it was my first encounter with the right wing. Really 308 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: they did that. David Brock wrote a cover story on 309 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: Jill and myself and it was an eight thousand words 310 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: story in The American Spectator that described us as complete 311 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 1: frauds and liars. Who funds them? Uh? Yes, it gets 312 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 1: you back in the end of the day to a 313 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:12,120 Speaker 1: handful of huge funders of right wing politics, and he 314 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,159 Speaker 1: was kind of their handmaiden. It was very It's become 315 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: an incredibly weird story because he changed his whole politics, 316 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: that is, David Brock did and turned around and admitted 317 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: years later that he was wrong, that he had lied, 318 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 1: that Anita Hill did tell the truth that Clarence Thomas 319 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 1: he believes did not, and he actually came out and 320 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 1: apologized to both Um Jill Abramson and myself and to 321 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 1: Anita Hill. So it was really an unusual situation. You 322 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:46,120 Speaker 1: never get an apology in life. It was really crazy. 323 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:49,919 Speaker 1: Did you run into him since his reformation? I have 324 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 1: seen him. You see him in Washington all the time. 325 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: It's a little town. Are you pals? I wouldn't say 326 00:17:55,800 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 1: we're pal, but but his former boy friend always comps 327 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: me at his restaurant. I think they still feel a 328 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:07,119 Speaker 1: little guilty. Yeah. Um, it's a weird story. Part of 329 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 1: getting older, one of the great things is you live 330 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: to see these plot twists. You couldn't believe. That's so so. 331 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: Tina comes ringing while you're doing the Brock review, which 332 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:21,360 Speaker 1: is a feather in your cap. Obviously, people were very 333 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:23,640 Speaker 1: very taken that you did that. She was very excited 334 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 1: about it and ut to come out. My book hadn't 335 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: yet come out, but I immediately, um, I mean the 336 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 1: minute she showed any interest. I was out living in 337 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 1: Santa Monica at that point. I got on a plane 338 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:40,359 Speaker 1: and zoomed into New York to have an interview with 339 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 1: her and try to get My husband was the West 340 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: Coast bureau chief for the Washington Post and covering out 341 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:54,680 Speaker 1: there please, I'll say, Holly, what I'm gonna throw up? Quakes, 342 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:58,919 Speaker 1: all of that kind of I was there. I'm standing 343 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 1: there in my driveway in my underwear, really, and I'm 344 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:04,879 Speaker 1: in my driveway and as I look out in the hills. 345 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:06,439 Speaker 1: I live in the valley with my ex wife, and 346 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: we look out over the valley and you see the 347 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,680 Speaker 1: flames like gas pipes that erupted and flames are shooting 348 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: up almost volcanically into the air. It's dawn, it's still dark, 349 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:17,120 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, I hear a voice behind 350 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:19,680 Speaker 1: my go go hey. And I turned as a man 351 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:23,120 Speaker 1: with an enormous wrench in his hand and a bathrobe, 352 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:25,919 Speaker 1: and I just just the image was like kind of 353 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 1: a like a like a like a Freddy Krueger movie. 354 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 1: And I turned and went ah and and he said, 355 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:33,679 Speaker 1: you want me to turn off your gas? And he 356 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,359 Speaker 1: was going down the block and turning off the gas 357 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 1: of everybody's houses before their houses blew up. It was 358 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:42,160 Speaker 1: really scary for East and you're an East Coast person 359 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:45,639 Speaker 1: originally too, I have it's a horror movie to have 360 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:51,879 Speaker 1: the earth suddenly splitting open beneath your feet. New Yorker 361 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:56,399 Speaker 1: writer Jane Mayor has seen her share of horror early 362 00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: in her career. She was reporting in Beirut for The 363 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:04,160 Speaker 1: Walls Street Journal when Hezbollah killed three people near where 364 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: she was staying. She says that witnessing the aftermath of 365 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: that attack will haunt her for the rest of her life. 366 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:15,679 Speaker 1: Talking with great journalists about their early careers as one 367 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: of my favorite pastimes. My friend on the media host 368 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:24,399 Speaker 1: Bob Garfield, has an unfailing moral compass, but he wasn't 369 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 1: born with it. I didn't go to Jay school. I 370 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 1: was an English majorum, but happily blundered into journalism. Knew 371 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:34,399 Speaker 1: literally from the first morning that that's just what I 372 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 1: wanted to do. But I wasn't even trained in basic 373 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:40,679 Speaker 1: journalism ethics. So on the one hand that hurt you. 374 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 1: I did some things as a young journalist that we're 375 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:49,640 Speaker 1: firing offenses, encouraged by my own newspaper. Give me any example, 376 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:52,680 Speaker 1: you know, I would need to tires from my car 377 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 1: in my city. Editor who was corrupt sent me to 378 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 1: the rest of that conversation can be found in our 379 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 1: archives at Here's the Thing dot org. This is Alec Baldwin, 380 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 1: and you were listening to Here's the Thing today. Jane 381 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: Mayer's name is synonymous with the deep, investigative journalism of 382 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 1: the New Yorker, But in when the new editor in chief, 383 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 1: Tina Brown called her mayor couldn't believe her luck. I 384 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,920 Speaker 1: got my resume together like in ten seconds, and um, 385 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: when she offered me a job, it was it was 386 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:40,879 Speaker 1: sort of kind of dream come true to go to 387 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: the New Yorker. She was just putting her team together. 388 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,400 Speaker 1: It was relatively new and there was some controversation when 389 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: she took over designing, though no I thought it was 390 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: going to be fantastic. I've never I don't think i'd 391 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:57,440 Speaker 1: had a female boss before. Um. She was very, very 392 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 1: very cool, bringing in all kinds of super bright. Yeah. 393 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: I actually really enjoyed working for Tina Brown. She was 394 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: she was kind of like, um, a producer as much 395 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: as anything. She would sort of say, think of a 396 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 1: subject and then decide which talent she wanted to get 397 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 1: on that particular story. I mean there were you know. 398 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: She also would fact you at three in the morning, 399 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 1: so it was she was up at three in the morning. 400 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 1: And it might be too they're both reading at three 401 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 1: in the morning. Undoubtedly, How has it changed over the years, 402 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 1: and now you're in the Remnick period? Obviously, how did 403 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 1: it change? Oh god, it's gone so fast. Um, the 404 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: places you know? Remnick is also I gotta say, I mean, 405 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: I've had a lot of different bosses in my life 406 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,920 Speaker 1: before this, I've landed in a good spot with Remnick 407 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,119 Speaker 1: is also a great boss. The thing about the New 408 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 1: Yorker is these are very very smart people on the 409 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 1: s and it's well, so it's like playing tennis with 410 00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 1: somebody who's better than you. You wind up looking really good, 411 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,120 Speaker 1: and so it's good that you get better. They make 412 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 1: you look better, right, I'm convinced to from the typeface 413 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,120 Speaker 1: at the place, it looks elegant. So you can write 414 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:14,360 Speaker 1: something that's really not so special, but it looks really good. 415 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 1: That Remnick, as you can tell, he deeply cares, you 416 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,399 Speaker 1: know what I mean, And and and and that caring and 417 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,120 Speaker 1: that commitment to that, to keeping that place at that level. 418 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: Some of the never ebbs, I will read pieces, My god, 419 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 1: what did it take like eighteen months to write this thing? 420 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 1: They do sometimes, I mean they go through hundreds of drafts, 421 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,679 Speaker 1: literally hundreds of them, and I think, I mean, I 422 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 1: suppose the reason that we take Umberge being called fake 423 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 1: news is just if anybody had any idea how much 424 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:47,439 Speaker 1: effort goes into trying to get everything right. You know, 425 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:49,920 Speaker 1: I'm not claiming that we always do, but I don't 426 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 1: think you could try any harder these I mean, we 427 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: have fact checkers who speak multiple languages, who call up 428 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 1: every source that we've interviewed and go over everything with them. 429 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,360 Speaker 1: Yet again, um, there are you know, there are anonymous sources. 430 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: They're not made up sources because their sources who the 431 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,400 Speaker 1: fact checkers have spoken with, the editors know who they are. 432 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 1: It's all so careful. It's we have fantastic players. We 433 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 1: have we have an in house grammarian who goes through 434 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:25,160 Speaker 1: the grammar of every sentence, and so I mean, it's 435 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: it's excruciating to close these pieces. You I often get 436 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: sick right afterwards, and I'm not the only one. A 437 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 1: lot of the writers do. It's a really high stressed 438 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: thing you do kind of because it's so exhausting. Um 439 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 1: and then and then so so this idea that, um, 440 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,880 Speaker 1: we've got a president who's who's claiming it's all made 441 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: up and it's full of lies. I hope that the 442 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: truth speaks for itself the modern GOP. I mean, back 443 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:58,680 Speaker 1: during the Nixon scandals, Republicans were required to vote for impeachment. 444 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 1: And did you know what happens now is Republicans are 445 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,360 Speaker 1: now renouncing that and saying we're gonna tell the truth 446 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:05,719 Speaker 1: of it's gonna get us where we want to go, 447 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,120 Speaker 1: telling the truth that they're not going to get Thomas 448 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 1: on the court. They're not gonna get Capital on the court. 449 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 1: They're not gonna they're not gonna get Trump elected. President 450 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 1: Trump is there and he's gonna run and people actually 451 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,399 Speaker 1: believe he's this crack business executive. And as all this 452 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 1: acument about business thanks to Mark Burnett and the TV 453 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 1: show and when when The Apprentice was on and my 454 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: brother was on the Apprentice and Celebrity Apprentice, I never 455 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: once watched the apprent never once. I never watched that 456 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 1: TV show And who who the hell would watch that, 457 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:37,360 Speaker 1: and in America they think, you know, that's who he is, smart, decisive, 458 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: commanding all these things, which everybody who knows knows he's 459 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: the opposite of that. But it's what we missed though, 460 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,239 Speaker 1: the Apprentice part, because just like you didn't watch it, 461 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 1: most of the political press court didn't watch it either. 462 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 1: We just you know that that was just a gigantic 463 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 1: failing on our part. Well we should have if we 464 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: should have watched it, And I did finally watch it, 465 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,400 Speaker 1: and just even the opening of it, where it's got 466 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 1: the money money, you know song, and you've got him 467 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 1: coming in on a helicopter and a limousine is meeting 468 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 1: him and some beautiful girl gets out of it with 469 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,639 Speaker 1: a clipboard for him. It's like money pornography. It's like 470 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,199 Speaker 1: a fantasy of what riches. So I didn't see I 471 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 1: did not see it coming. I mean, the closest it was. 472 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 1: I interviewed um that one of the stories I loved 473 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 1: the most was interviewing Tony Schwartz, who wrote the Art 474 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,400 Speaker 1: of the Deal, and he said, people think there's more 475 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: to Trump and that there's another Trump, and when he 476 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 1: gets elected, he's going to be different. He said, there 477 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,879 Speaker 1: is no one Trump. It's all like, you know, a 478 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 1: centimeter deep. This is a very sophomore question. But you're 479 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 1: all these insights of yours into Hill and Kavanaugh, and 480 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,200 Speaker 1: you've made a lot of your career, not all of it, 481 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 1: about these kinds of things. Why Why does Spitzer go 482 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,680 Speaker 1: down and Schneiderman goes down, and and uh and Franken 483 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: goes down and and was to this day, to this day, 484 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 1: Trump evades justice on the subject of sexual assault. What's 485 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 1: your opinion about that? I think you've just got a 486 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 1: completely different standard in the two parties. I mean, and 487 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: that the problem is that the Democrats they take these 488 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,399 Speaker 1: issues seriously, which means that the mails and the party 489 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:20,440 Speaker 1: are very vulnerable to these kinds of attacks and um 490 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:25,440 Speaker 1: and and that on the Republican side they just plane, 491 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 1: you know, Stonewall right through it. I mean, Trump has said, 492 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 1: you know that he could be he could shoot someone 493 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 1: on Fifth Avenue and get away with it. He's he's 494 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,679 Speaker 1: so solidified as base behind him on all sorts of things. 495 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:43,159 Speaker 1: Eric Snearderman resigned under three hours after the story in 496 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: The New Yorker came out. That's how seriously the Democrats 497 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,639 Speaker 1: take it. And I think you have to be proud 498 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,919 Speaker 1: that the Democratic Party does care about it. It does matter, 499 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 1: and it's trying to send a message to women that 500 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,639 Speaker 1: you know, we respect you, and um, we're not going 501 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:03,439 Speaker 1: to tolerate abuses, sexual abuse from powerful men. I and 502 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,200 Speaker 1: so I think that Schneiderman's case, like Franken's or like Kavanos, 503 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: I should say rather it's worth exploring further. Meaning Sneiderman 504 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 1: still contends of one of those women is lying, you know, 505 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 1: having done the reporting, I don't think so. I don't 506 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 1: think he's got a chance of trying to convince people otherwise. 507 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 1: There are too many, too many women who had uncanny 508 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 1: how close their experiences were. The phrases are the same. 509 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 1: These women have not spoken to each other, and they're 510 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,640 Speaker 1: describing almost exactly the same thing. It's it's kind of 511 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 1: creepy almost Now. You wrote recently your article about Fox News, 512 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: and I have some friends of mine in New York 513 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 1: and some of them have unswervingly liberal credentials and democratic credentials. 514 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 1: Are they're certainly not Republicans, They're certainly not Fox News 515 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: people who defend Murdoch and admire Murdoch. Do you think 516 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 1: that Rupert Mardoch really is, in his d in a 517 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 1: political conservative to the to the degree that's reflected by 518 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 1: his on air talent at Fox. No, I don't. In fact, 519 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: one of the questions I had about him was how 520 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: does he managed to live with himself knowing better than 521 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 1: a lot of the stuff that Fox puts up on 522 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 1: the air. And I knew because I've been doing the 523 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 1: reading and talking to people and interviewing people and seeing 524 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 1: even his own tweets that, for instance, he has a 525 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: completely different position on immigration than Trump. Um, he considers 526 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: Trump an fffing idiot, as he said to many people 527 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 1: on the subject of immigration. Yet every night on Fox 528 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: you can see Sean Hannity taking Trump's position on immigration 529 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 1: and just terrorizing viewers about the idea that these immigrants 530 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 1: are hordes of unwashed, dirty people coming to take your 531 00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 1: jobs in caravans. And you know, it's it's it's you know, rapists, 532 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: it's the whole thing. And and and I know that 533 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: Rupert Murdoch doesn't believe that he's an immigrant himself, and 534 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 1: he's he's spoken about it, and he's tweeted about it, 535 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 1: and he used to call Trump an idiot about it, 536 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 1: and so how does he balance those two things? This 537 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 1: is one of the questions I had the same thing 538 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: with global warming. Who did you pose that question too? 539 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: I talked of his people who really know him well, 540 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 1: and I talked to people who had worked at Fox, 541 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: you know people, and one of them is quoted in there. 542 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,959 Speaker 1: It's it's Greta Ancester and who used to be Fox 543 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 1: host herself, and she's known Murdoch pretty well over the years. 544 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 1: And I said, you know, like, so like, how does 545 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 1: he you know, how does he sleep at night doing this? 546 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: And she said, don't kid yourself, It's about the money. Um. 547 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 1: And you know again, as I said, the reporters are 548 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: the last nightives. I think people believe in stuff, but 549 00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 1: apparently he's the ultimate cynic. It's the bottom line his view. 550 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: He can make money doing this. He's going to keep 551 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: making money doing this. He knows and has written and 552 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 1: spoken about climate change. He knows it's real, he knows 553 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 1: that humankind is causing it, and that things can be 554 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 1: done to turn his former country to a pizza of 555 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 1: a n anything he will. But he's but because and 556 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: if you watch Fox, and unfortunately I had to watch 557 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 1: tons of it to do that story. You will see 558 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 1: they do nothing but mock the idea of climate change. 559 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: It's just a big joke to them on air, the 560 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 1: University of climate denial. It is and and and the 561 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 1: thing is he knows that that's that It's an incredibly 562 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 1: harmful position to take. Now, when you watched all those 563 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: hours and hours a Fox, were there some surprises for 564 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 1: you there when you watch what did you see anything? 565 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 1: They have variations among them, so, um, Brian Kilmeade and 566 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 1: Fox and Friends will ask questions sometimes. It's sort of 567 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 1: prickly and uncomfortable about various things that Trump is saying, 568 00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 1: usually from the right. But he but he's a little 569 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 1: a little bit more independent. Um, and you know each Smith, 570 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 1: Chep Smith. You know, yes, he's made him turn. Do 571 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 1: you think I don't want to? You know, he's to 572 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 1: become their one. He's like Alan Colmes now practically, you 573 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 1: know he is kind of I mean, I think he's 574 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: he's very useful to Fox. It's become important for Fox 575 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 1: to try to look like it has some legitimacy on 576 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 1: its news side, so they need people like Shepherd Smith. 577 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 1: It's occasionally break with the political line that comes down 578 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 1: from the hosts at Night. I don't know why he's 579 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 1: still there. I have to say, given what's going on 580 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 1: all around him. For those people who don't understand the 581 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 1: James Murdoch Laughlin Murdoch personality index, there, explain why was 582 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: Laughlin anointed and not James. For those who don't understand that, 583 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 1: I'm sure it's really complicated, but this was an incredible 584 00:32:55,800 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 1: dynastic struggle within the Murdoch family. James wanted the job. 585 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 1: I think James wanted to be the favorite son, and 586 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: and and and at lease play a huge part in 587 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: his father's media empire, and it was Lachlin who won 588 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 1: out and and and took over. And for what I'm told, 589 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 1: James is the favorite son, but not the one to 590 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 1: run the company. I've interviewed a lot of people around them, 591 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: including their friends, and some suggests that, you know, there's 592 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: really quite a break between James and his father, and 593 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: that they're not very cozy these days. So it's hard 594 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:35,480 Speaker 1: to tell, you know, you're on the outside. It's there's 595 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 1: all the sibling rivalry and jockeying, and in the end 596 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: of the day, Lachlin is now the rising power in 597 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: the Murdoch empire, and if you look at what he 598 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: did in Australia, as The Times describes it, it doesn't 599 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 1: give you a lot of hope for fixing fun. That's 600 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 1: what the store of the intellectual and therefore that just 601 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: qualifies him to run the company. And he's married to 602 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 1: a woman who's an environmentalist. So it James and his wife, Catherine, 603 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 1: who convinced Rupert Murdoch that climate change was real and 604 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 1: he needed to try to do something about it. And 605 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 1: Murdoch promised at one point a few years ago that 606 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 1: he was going to incorporate it into all the programming 607 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,320 Speaker 1: they did in all the Murdoch held media um entities 608 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,239 Speaker 1: all around the world, and it never happened. So I 609 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 1: was curious when I started this piece about so how 610 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 1: does this guy um justify knowing better but putting these 611 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 1: lines up on the air. They're going to really hurt 612 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,759 Speaker 1: sort of the planet and humankind because he has so 613 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,440 Speaker 1: much influence. And at the end of the day, I 614 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,440 Speaker 1: hate to say it, but I think the answer was 615 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 1: pretty simple. I mean, and it is as as as 616 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,239 Speaker 1: great event Sustern said. He's making money off of it 617 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:48,400 Speaker 1: and and it works for that, I think he is conservative. 618 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 1: I don't think he's like a flaming liberal who's trying to, 619 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 1: you know, fight his instincts. But there are issues where 620 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:59,360 Speaker 1: he disagrees with Trump, and it's a faustine bargain. This 621 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:01,319 Speaker 1: is a non secretive but it's something I've been thinking 622 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 1: a lot about, you know, in the world of mass incarceration, 623 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,760 Speaker 1: and we're saying that we want, you know, we realized 624 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 1: that it's prison incorporated and all these people are being 625 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 1: sent to prison. And do you think that Lorie Laughlin 626 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 1: and Felicity Huffman deserved to go to prison? Okay, So 627 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,279 Speaker 1: I'm a mother of someone who applied to all those 628 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 1: colleges and we did. We did not bribe anyone. And 629 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 1: if prison is good enough for for blue collar criminals, 630 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,799 Speaker 1: it's good enough for white collar criminals. And I would 631 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 1: be even happier if they were putting fewer people away 632 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,719 Speaker 1: of all kinds. I think our criminal justice system is 633 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 1: draconian a lot of this time. I think Felicity Hufman 634 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:46,239 Speaker 1: should be sentenced to teach acting for five years for 635 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,360 Speaker 1: free at cal State Northridge. But I think, to myself, 636 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: to put them in prison, what does that gain society 637 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 1: other than just to punish them. It's only to make 638 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 1: an example of them. It's kind of like Martha Stewart 639 00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,360 Speaker 1: or some of these other things. But you know, to 640 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:01,719 Speaker 1: get back to where we started, you said there's something 641 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:05,279 Speaker 1: on everyone, and I said, yes, And what we want 642 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 1: to know is how did they deal with it? What 643 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:09,719 Speaker 1: do they learn from it? I was reading stuff lately 644 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 1: where they said, oh, we thought we're gonna get a 645 00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:13,560 Speaker 1: slap on the wrist, and boy do we miscalculate, and 646 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:15,960 Speaker 1: boy are they sorry? Now. I was reading it, but 647 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,200 Speaker 1: it sounds like they're sorry only because they might go 648 00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:21,480 Speaker 1: to prisons because they're sorry they get caught. That's kind 649 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 1: of not good enough. So I guess in my little 650 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,280 Speaker 1: psychodrama here in the war, dear of the jury, you're dismissed. 651 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:33,120 Speaker 1: You dismissed jury. You might leave now, thank you. And 652 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,319 Speaker 1: my last question for you is everywhere you go, this 653 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 1: administration is doing horrible things and evading responsibility for all 654 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 1: of it. Really worried about it? Yes, I do. I 655 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:44,520 Speaker 1: mean I should. I'd be lying if I said I didn't. 656 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 1: Usually have to figure pretty optimistic generally that if the 657 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:52,360 Speaker 1: public gets information, it'll make a difference in that public 658 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,440 Speaker 1: pressure is a very powerful thing in a democracy, so 659 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 1: you can push back. But I'm really worried about it. 660 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,000 Speaker 1: I think this next election is like the ultimate stress 661 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:05,440 Speaker 1: test for this country. And I just don't know if 662 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:07,760 Speaker 1: the press can make the difference here, if the truth 663 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 1: makes the difference here, I don't know. I only know 664 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 1: how to do what I do, which is like get 665 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:14,480 Speaker 1: the story, gets what's right, get it out there. And 666 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 1: I always think, well then people will care. And I 667 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:20,800 Speaker 1: just don't know if it's going to make the difference anymore. 668 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 1: I can't tell, because things are. It's we're in a 669 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,279 Speaker 1: we're in a really dangerous spot. Who do you attribute 670 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,600 Speaker 1: this kind of backbone you have in this grit you 671 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 1: have to do that. This work requires your mother your 672 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:37,920 Speaker 1: father are both probably I mean, my father was a musician, 673 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:42,480 Speaker 1: he was a composer, um, and my mom's family is 674 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:48,759 Speaker 1: very Midwestern and kind of lost b I think they 675 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 1: have that kind of puritanical do good in the world mission. 676 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:54,480 Speaker 1: That's probably where I got it from. I hate to 677 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:59,440 Speaker 1: tell you, but Jane Mayer had second thoughts about attributing 678 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,640 Speaker 1: all a reporting rigor to a Protestant work ethic, which 679 00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:07,000 Speaker 1: one of your family was was in the banking business. 680 00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 1: They were my great great grandfather. And on the Jewish side, 681 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,920 Speaker 1: my father's, my father's side, they were that they were. 682 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:18,760 Speaker 1: They were rich, funny Jews going through the family fortune. 683 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:20,759 Speaker 1: And the other side were like, you know, I'm like 684 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 1: so melting pot. Investigative journalist Jane Mayer. Her book on 685 00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 1: Anita Hill and Clarence Thomas is Strange Justice, written with 686 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:37,440 Speaker 1: Jill Abramson. Her recent work on Fox News is called 687 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 1: the Making of the Fox News White House, and it 688 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:44,120 Speaker 1: appeared in the March eleven, two th nineteen issue of 689 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 1: The New Yorker. This is Alec Baldwin, and you were 690 00:38:50,040 --> 00:39:12,000 Speaker 1: listening to Here's the Thing to Be four