Speaker 1: On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have
Speaker 1: womenium are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or
Speaker 1: do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef invest start changing
Speaker 1: it with the bel cast. Welcome to the Vectel Cast.
Speaker 1: My name is Jamie Loftus. My name is Caitlin Darante. Jamie,
Speaker 1: do you want to come down into my labyrinth with me? No,
Speaker 1: sounds scary. Don't like that initiation. Um, well, wait, I
Speaker 1: actually have a question. This is a movie, right, So
Speaker 1: if there's elaborate, that's probably a really drawn out metaphor
Speaker 1: for a womb, is it not. Perhaps there's a vagina
Speaker 1: in the floor and we've got to climb in. This
Speaker 1: happens in I would say of movies, Well remember the
Speaker 1: floor of vagina from Mother exclamation point right, the floor
Speaker 1: of vagina. I haven't thought about that, And forever it
Speaker 1: happens so much male outurs they're at it again. At
Speaker 1: least this is this is a great movie. But I
Speaker 1: was like, there it is. I forgot the last time
Speaker 1: I watched Pan's Laborriate, I didn't. I didn't know about
Speaker 1: the cultural sensation that is floor vagina or a vagina.
Speaker 1: Head vaginas come in many forms. We have two floor
Speaker 1: vaginas this month alone. I mean the descent cave vagina. Shocking. Wow. Um,
Speaker 1: anyway here we are, yes? Sure? I Well, are there
Speaker 1: two Doug Jones in your floor vagina? I guess I'll
Speaker 1: come in as long as he's there. As long as
Speaker 1: he's there, I feel safe. So this is the Bechtel Cast. Welcome.
Speaker 1: We are a movie podcasts in which we analyze popular films,
Speaker 1: usually sometimes unpopular, I don't know. In any case, we
Speaker 1: analyze influential, for better or worse, influential films through an
Speaker 1: intersectional seminist lens, and we use the Bechtel test simply
Speaker 1: as a way to inspire a larger conversation about representation, inclusivity,
Speaker 1: intersectionality and what Jamie, what is it? What's the Betel test? Well?
Speaker 1: It is a media metric invented by Alice and Bachtel,
Speaker 1: sometimes called the Bactel Wallace test, that requires for our purposes.
Speaker 1: There's different variants of the test, but for our test,
Speaker 1: it requires that there are two people of a marginalized
Speaker 1: gender with names talking to each other about something other
Speaker 1: than a man for two lines of dialogue that's all
Speaker 1: it takes. Shouldn't be that awfully hard. You can talk
Speaker 1: about Floria Vagina, you cannot talk about Doug Jones. Sometimes
Speaker 1: it's hard, but but we we will get. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's you know, this movie passes there, the podcast is over.
Speaker 1: You can stop listening. There's nothing left to discuss. Um.
Speaker 1: But that is that is the Bechtel test. But we
Speaker 1: use it as a jumping off point for a larger discussion. Indeed,
Speaker 1: and I'm so excited about our discussion today. I'm so
Speaker 1: excited about our guest today. You already know him, you
Speaker 1: already love him, because he's our producer. He's our dear friend.
Speaker 1: You remember him from the Pacific rim episode. He's the sweetest,
Speaker 1: simply the best. He's an uncle now he's and he's
Speaker 1: Del Toro's number one fan. Is the credit that he wanted.
Speaker 1: It's a credit currently being sported on his very shirt,
Speaker 1: courtesy of a gift that I bravely gave him. Brave
Speaker 1: it's Aristotle Alsaveado. Hello, happy to be back. We're so
Speaker 1: happy to have you. We've missed you so much. It
Speaker 1: has been far too long. I know, well because someone
Speaker 1: was just asking about you, and because of how you
Speaker 1: record in the Quarantine where it's just a very bare
Speaker 1: bones operation with me and Jamie. Um, but we still
Speaker 1: need you, Aristotle, and that's why you're here and we've been,
Speaker 1: we've been. I mean, this works out on so many
Speaker 1: levels because you are number one Del Toro head and
Speaker 1: people have been requesting Pan's Labyrinth for so long. I
Speaker 1: imagine it's pretty high up there. What's your history with
Speaker 1: this movie? And I guess with the Del Toro fandom
Speaker 1: at large. I remember this the other day and it
Speaker 1: may date me a bit, but I still remember seeing
Speaker 1: the poster for the first time right here at the
Speaker 1: Alhambra Renaissance when I was just a kid, uh, and
Speaker 1: seeing it and thinking like, what the fuck movie called
Speaker 1: Pan's Labyrinth and You're not gonna have Peter Pan in it?
Speaker 1: That's so dumb, Like I was so mad that they
Speaker 1: took Peter Pan's name? Did he? But you know, I
Speaker 1: was a foolish child that knew nothing. And then I
Speaker 1: don't remember the first time I saw it, but I
Speaker 1: remember really being blown away and immediately remembering that moment,
Speaker 1: thinking Wow, what that was? What a stupid thing? Oh
Speaker 1: that's the best, Jamie, what about you, what's your history
Speaker 1: with it? Um? I remember seeing this movie for the
Speaker 1: first time after school at my aunt's house because she
Speaker 1: had like movie channels and we did not have movie channels.
Speaker 1: This is at my now Trump supporting aunt's house. We've
Speaker 1: simply fallen out of touch, but I did. There was
Speaker 1: a point in time where she had the channel Showtime,
Speaker 1: and I wanted to watch a cool movie. So I
Speaker 1: watched it and I love did I definitely. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I was probably in like middle schoolish it. It was
Speaker 1: like shortly after this movie came out. I didn't know
Speaker 1: who del Toro was at this time, but it was
Speaker 1: my first Del Toro movie, and so I held it
Speaker 1: very close to my heart and it holds up. It's
Speaker 1: so good it does. Yeah, what about you. I was
Speaker 1: in college when it came out, and I think I
Speaker 1: saw it somewhere around that time, maybe like a year
Speaker 1: or two after six. When it came out, I was oh,
Speaker 1: sex okay, yeah, right, yeah, yes, and I was like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, this movie is so good. And I
Speaker 1: wish I had spent my life watching it more frequently,
Speaker 1: because I think I've only seen it. I think I
Speaker 1: watched it once every like four years or so, so
Speaker 1: I've seen it like three or four times in the past,
Speaker 1: but every time I watched it, I'm like, oh my,
Speaker 1: this is incredible. I love this movie. It's so the
Speaker 1: story is so well crafted, it's beautiful, and I'm tronics
Speaker 1: of it, all the dug Jones of it all that
Speaker 1: I this is the first time I've seen this movie
Speaker 1: since like American fascism really ramped up. So yeah, same
Speaker 1: whole new vibe going on with this with this viewing.
Speaker 1: Oh how nothing has changed? Yeah truly, but like, yeah,
Speaker 1: this is basically you know, Franco's Spain all over again.
Speaker 1: This was also I think the just to expose, uh,
Speaker 1: some of the huge gaps in the American public education
Speaker 1: system slash education system at large. Um. I think that
Speaker 1: this movie was the first any in depth look I
Speaker 1: had at Franco with Spain at all. Like I think
Speaker 1: I had it referenced in school, but it certainly was
Speaker 1: never something that I learned extensively about, like Pan's Labyrinthe
Speaker 1: was truly what I was like, Oh, I should find
Speaker 1: out what is supposed to be happening in this movie,
Speaker 1: because I just it was very glossed over at school.
Speaker 1: For me anyways, I didn't even it didn't even get
Speaker 1: covered in any history class I ever took or anything
Speaker 1: like that has the only reason I honestly know that
Speaker 1: it happened. I know who Franco is. But even for
Speaker 1: this I tried to do a little bit of research,
Speaker 1: and it is so complicated I can't even pretend to
Speaker 1: understand what I for a context corner, I was like,
Speaker 1: all right, we got to do a breakdown of Franco
Speaker 1: of Spain. And then I was just like, I don't
Speaker 1: think I'm equipped to do this. Just read the Wikipedia page.
Speaker 1: Everyone like it is. It is incredibly dense um and
Speaker 1: I think I think it's also just like incredible writing
Speaker 1: on del Toro's part, that it's like he's able to
Speaker 1: present everything in a very historically accurate way, in a
Speaker 1: way that isn't like completely overwhelming or like if you
Speaker 1: don't fully understand the context, it doesn't extreme lee hinder
Speaker 1: your viewing of the movie, but if you do know
Speaker 1: the context, it enriches it. It's I'm always really impressed
Speaker 1: when people can right like that. It's a miracle. It's incredible. Yes,
Speaker 1: But also in doing some of the research I did
Speaker 1: a little research I read, you know, I have some
Speaker 1: books on del Toro specifically, one of them kind of
Speaker 1: referenced kind of his inaccuracy in the Spanish Civil War
Speaker 1: and that there's still a lot of sugarcoating that happens,
Speaker 1: that Spain itself is still kind of reconciling with that
Speaker 1: the resistance was actually somewhat puppeted by Communist Russia at
Speaker 1: the time and kind of use them and deceive them
Speaker 1: to even ensure Franco's victory, and like it's a whole
Speaker 1: very weird and that you know, the Francoist regime was
Speaker 1: as brutal as depicted in the movie, but that the
Speaker 1: resistance was also sometimes equally as brutal, Like they were
Speaker 1: also indiscriminate, le just murdering priests, anyone related to the
Speaker 1: church before and it was kind of like a back
Speaker 1: and forth of those kinds of things. I was like, ahh,
Speaker 1: holy ship. I really was hoping for a good versus
Speaker 1: evil and I think it still was because Franco was evil,
Speaker 1: but evil er, yeah, right, the greater of two evils. Wow,
Speaker 1: I didn't realize that man history is bleak and that too,
Speaker 1: was like, oh, this is so much like I truly
Speaker 1: can't even pretend to like, that's just kind of scratch
Speaker 1: of what I read. So if I'm totally wrong, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: That's fascinating. Well shod Should we talk about the movie?
Speaker 1: I guess so? Oh right. Um, so the recap goes
Speaker 1: as follows. I left some stuff out just because it's
Speaker 1: such a rich story with a lot of moving parts,
Speaker 1: So my recap isn't necessarily going to do this a
Speaker 1: huge amount of justice. I just recommend that everyone watched
Speaker 1: the movie because it's so terrific. It's streaming on Netflix
Speaker 1: as we speak, or at least I hope it still
Speaker 1: is at the time of this release. But um, yeah,
Speaker 1: just watch the movie because my my recap kind of
Speaker 1: skims over some stuff. But in any case, we get
Speaker 1: some text on the screen at the very beginning to
Speaker 1: provide some historical context. It is Spain in ninety four.
Speaker 1: It's a few years after the Spanish Civil War, and
Speaker 1: we learned that a group of like guerrilla rebel soldiers
Speaker 1: are hiding in the mountains fighting against the fascist regime.
Speaker 1: Then we get a little bit of a fairy tale
Speaker 1: introduction where once upon a time there was a princess
Speaker 1: who lived in the underworld, but she escaped to the
Speaker 1: human world kind of forgot her identity eventually died there.
Speaker 1: She became mortal and died there, but her father, the
Speaker 1: King of the underworld, knew her soul would one day
Speaker 1: return hern So that's the kind of fairy tale backstory
Speaker 1: we need to know. Princess Mohanna Moana interesting. Yeah, I'm like, okay,
Speaker 1: all my favorite princesses are named Mohanna. So then we're
Speaker 1: back in Spain. We meet Ophelia. She's ten years old.
Speaker 1: She loves fairy tales, and she is traveling with her mother,
Speaker 1: who is undoubtedly gregnant. She is gregnant with a confirmed
Speaker 1: Greg with a confirmed Greg who is a greg that's
Speaker 1: giving her problems, a problematic Greg. She's late in her
Speaker 1: problematic Gregnancy pregnancy, yes, and the third trimester of the Gregnancy.
Speaker 1: So anyway, um Ophelia and her mother are traveling to
Speaker 1: the countryside. Along the way, Ophelia sees this large insect
Speaker 1: that she thinks might be a fairy and she also
Speaker 1: sees an entrance to this old labyrinth made of stone
Speaker 1: near the house where she and her mother will be
Speaker 1: living in. And this is also where Olivia's new stepfather,
Speaker 1: Captain Vidal, has set up this base camp because he
Speaker 1: is in the military of the aforementioned fascist government searching
Speaker 1: for the aforementioned rebels who were hiding in the nearby mountains.
Speaker 1: And the captain, I feel like, embodies again in like
Speaker 1: a good way. But but because I feel like this
Speaker 1: movie has he's like patriarchy the character. Yeah, he's like
Speaker 1: an embodiment of toxic masculinity and fascist ideology. Everything that's wrong,
Speaker 1: that's him, that's that's his character. Yes, but also we're
Speaker 1: seeing it through her, like a child died, So it
Speaker 1: makes like, I mean, he's he's just he's a villain.
Speaker 1: He's simply a villain, one of the best movie villains,
Speaker 1: I think, and I think if this movie were less
Speaker 1: well written, he could easily come off as like one
Speaker 1: of these very cartoony villains. And he is. He's extremely evil.
Speaker 1: He's horrible. Works for the story, though, I mean, it
Speaker 1: definitely works. It works for the story, especially because it
Speaker 1: is like this is a fair dark, grim fairy tale,
Speaker 1: and he's very he's like borderline cartoonishly evil. But then
Speaker 1: you're like, remember, like, well, there were like fascist assholes
Speaker 1: who were not unlike this guy in real life, and
Speaker 1: also worth worth the note that Hispanic culture in general
Speaker 1: is very patriarchy, male dominant, like man is the man
Speaker 1: ruler over every like the language in itself is also
Speaker 1: completely binary and male is the dominant to the point
Speaker 1: where he I mean, I don't know, he does so
Speaker 1: many cartoonishly evilings, but when he goes to his dying
Speaker 1: wife's side and it's like, if it comes down to it,
Speaker 1: save Greg and then he just like leaves, You're like,
Speaker 1: jeezs man, damn the room at Yeah, she's right there.
Speaker 1: She can hear you right there, sir. He's so, he's
Speaker 1: he's completely awful, and uh so this is kind of
Speaker 1: who Ophelia is up against. Um. We also meet Mercedes,
Speaker 1: she is a housekeeper, UM, and we meet a doctor.
Speaker 1: They both kind of tend to the captain and his people,
Speaker 1: but we get a reveal that they are both secretly
Speaker 1: a part of this resistance and they've been helping the rebels,
Speaker 1: sneaking food and supplies to them. Um. Then on Ophelia's
Speaker 1: I think it's her first night there, the insect slash
Speaker 1: fairy shows up and beckons Ophelia to follow it into
Speaker 1: the labyrinth, and there she meets a fawn who thinks
Speaker 1: that Ophelia is the princess from the fairy tale in
Speaker 1: the beginning, and he has been like awaiting her return.
Speaker 1: And as you said, Jamie, the princess's name is ma Wanna,
Speaker 1: but with two ends Malana with ends. So the fawn
Speaker 1: gives Ophelia three tasks to complete by the next full moon.
Speaker 1: The first task is to feed these magic stones to
Speaker 1: a giant toad who lives in a nearby tree um
Speaker 1: who has been kind of like wreaking havoc on this tree,
Speaker 1: and she has to retrieve the key from inside the toad,
Speaker 1: which she successfully does. The toad scene so scary. I
Speaker 1: never remember what happens to the toad. It basically just
Speaker 1: barbs up all of its guts and then it's like
Speaker 1: skin shell just sort of deflates like a balloon. Oh my.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of like really horror imagery, like graphic
Speaker 1: violence and just like really scary stuff. It usually happens
Speaker 1: pretty quick, and you don't actually get a lot of
Speaker 1: views of like the scene where he smashes a face
Speaker 1: in with the bottle, right the bottle, and you know,
Speaker 1: you don't actually see his face. You kind of get
Speaker 1: a moment of it being smashed in. But it's not
Speaker 1: like other gory movies where it's like we're going to
Speaker 1: give you the full look into his bleeding. It's like
Speaker 1: kind of it's a very quick thing most of the time.
Speaker 1: That's still the worst one for me, really bad. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I was reading that Del Toro based that off
Speaker 1: of something that actually happened. I can find that quote
Speaker 1: right now. I was just reading it. Yeah, awful. Um, okay,
Speaker 1: So she's got the key from the toad. Meanwhile, Vidal
Speaker 1: is getting closer to the rebels in the mountains. One
Speaker 1: of them is Mercedes brother. Also Ophelia's mother is her
Speaker 1: her difficult Gregnancy is is getting worse. Um, she's having
Speaker 1: pain and bleeding. Then the fun shows up and he's like, Ophelia,
Speaker 1: you haven't done your next task yet. You have to
Speaker 1: go into this dangerous place. Take the key with you.
Speaker 1: You'll see this feast laid out before you, but don't
Speaker 1: eat or drink anything. That's very important. So she goes
Speaker 1: into this place and there's this scary creature, the Paleman,
Speaker 1: also Doug Jones. She sneaks past it and uses the
Speaker 1: key to retrieve this dagger, but the feast is very
Speaker 1: tempting and she is a child with not much will power,
Speaker 1: so she eats a couple of grapes and it awakens
Speaker 1: the pale man who has eyeballs in his hands. It's
Speaker 1: very scary and it kills two of the fawn's little
Speaker 1: like fairy friends. But Ophelia manages to escape, and the
Speaker 1: Fawn shows up again and he's like, um, you ate
Speaker 1: the things that I told you not to eat. You're
Speaker 1: not worthy. You're never allowed to come back into the
Speaker 1: labyrinth again. You can't be the princess And then right
Speaker 1: after this, Ophelia's mother dies during childbirth. The baby survived.
Speaker 1: The Greg does survive. His name is Greg. Canonically, I
Speaker 1: believe he's credited Greg. Yeah, baby Greg. So meanwhile, Videl
Speaker 1: is like figuring out that the doctor and Mercedes have
Speaker 1: been helping the rebellion. So Mercedes makes a run for
Speaker 1: it and takes Ophelia with her, but Videl catches them
Speaker 1: trying to leave, and then he's about to interrogate Mercedes,
Speaker 1: but she fights back, stabs him a couple of times,
Speaker 1: and then runs away. The so cathartic fun but then
Speaker 1: Videl's army surrounds her as she's running away, but the
Speaker 1: gorillas are hiding nearby and they like, sniper shoot the
Speaker 1: bad guys. Meanwhile, the phone comes back to Ophelia and
Speaker 1: he's like, Okay, you know what, I decided to give
Speaker 1: you one more chance for your last task. You have
Speaker 1: to come to the Labyrinth and bring your baby brother, Greg,
Speaker 1: and you have to do everything I say without question.
Speaker 1: So Ophelia snatches the baby from Videl's office, but she
Speaker 1: gives Videal this strong sedative and he's trying to chase
Speaker 1: after her through the labyrinth. And then Ophelia comes upon
Speaker 1: the opening of the underworld and the Pond is like, okay,
Speaker 1: you have to sacrifice your baby brother because we need
Speaker 1: the blood of an innocent to open the portal to
Speaker 1: the underworld. And she's like, um funck no, dude, this
Speaker 1: is a baby. I'm not gonna hurt it. Just then
Speaker 1: Videl shows up, takes the baby and shoots Ophelia, and
Speaker 1: then the tears just start bursting from your head. And
Speaker 1: then and then when Videl emerges from the Labyrinth, the
Speaker 1: rebels have him surrounded and they kill him in another
Speaker 1: very cathartic scene, and then we cut back to Ophelia,
Speaker 1: who is dying, and her spilt blood and her refusal
Speaker 1: to hurt her brother and sacrifice herself instead opens the
Speaker 1: portal to the underworld, where she is revived and she
Speaker 1: reunites with her true mother and father, the King and
Speaker 1: Queen of the Underworld. And then kind of the last
Speaker 1: little bit of the movie is she leaves kind of
Speaker 1: like hints of her herself on earth, like a little flower,
Speaker 1: and that you're saying that she dies and doesn't fall asleep, right,
Speaker 1: because I was just worried that you were going to
Speaker 1: be hay that energy and on onto the cast. You
Speaker 1: know what I've I gave this a lot of thought.
Speaker 1: She definitely does it fall. I mean, she's only with
Speaker 1: dead people. But I mean you could say the same
Speaker 1: thing for well, what happens in Titanic, you know what,
Speaker 1: Jamie I think, Well, here's the thing, James Cameron, if
Speaker 1: you read his script, he leaves it intentionally ambiguous in
Speaker 1: the Titanic screenplay, whereas Garmo del Toro has stated pretty
Speaker 1: definitively that the fairy tale aspect of this movie is
Speaker 1: real and that she does, in fact die at the
Speaker 1: end and go into the underworld, and that's all real.
Speaker 1: So point, James Cameron and Garama del Toro are friends,
Speaker 1: So it's conceivable that del Toros at the end of
Speaker 1: Titanic and was like, oh my god, I love this
Speaker 1: beautiful climactic ending scene in certainly Heaven. Uh let me
Speaker 1: let me draw from this, uh for for my own movie.
Speaker 1: James Cameron is my friend. I'm also like that, which
Speaker 1: let me hold down a whole other rabbit hole of Like,
Speaker 1: what are those conversations? I feel like those must be
Speaker 1: some of like the weirdest conversations between two people you
Speaker 1: could ever find. Like I would love to just hack
Speaker 1: in and see what those guys are talking about in
Speaker 1: the emails. Well, he has got navy j pegs in
Speaker 1: his Gmail for sure. Okay, well counter counterpoint. Yeah, del
Speaker 1: Toro saw the end of Titanic. He read the screenplay,
Speaker 1: and he's just like, I don't like how ambiguous this is.
Speaker 1: I think that James Cameron really left it open to interpretation,
Speaker 1: so much so that some really brilliant people they're easily
Speaker 1: interpret the end of Titanic as a dream. So I
Speaker 1: want to make sure my ending is a little bit
Speaker 1: more concrete counter counter counter point Del Toro, it's you
Speaker 1: know the heaven in Pan's lab Ranther the you know
Speaker 1: the underworld is a beautiful shimmering gold, which I think
Speaker 1: is a direct reference to the heaven that is painted
Speaker 1: at the end of Titanic, where the room is more
Speaker 1: luminescent and the lighting is different than You look up
Speaker 1: to the sky and it's so beautiful and you're like, wow,
Speaker 1: that must be what heaven is like, a place full
Speaker 1: of dead people that you knew. And but isn't that
Speaker 1: also what dreams are like? Every time I dream, it's
Speaker 1: full of all the dead people. Like, my dreams are
Speaker 1: not like that. I'll tell you. Oh, that's okay. That's
Speaker 1: a great counter counter counter counterpoint is that dreams are
Speaker 1: usually terrifying. I had a dream last night that Adam
Speaker 1: Sandler kept mailing bras that weren't my size to my house.
Speaker 1: It's not heaven at all. That was there gold in
Speaker 1: the background, golden light, no gold, There was no gold.
Speaker 1: He was sending it through Amazon, so it wasn't even ethical.
Speaker 1: He was sending me the wrong size bra to my
Speaker 1: house over and over and over and over and over,
Speaker 1: and I don't want to know what that dream means,
Speaker 1: but I did have it. Well, I can see that
Speaker 1: we'll never agree on this, so I have somewhat of
Speaker 1: a counterpoint here that that is an odd thing I
Speaker 1: encountered in the research. In this essay, I'm probably gonna
Speaker 1: be referring to a lot that I was surprised to
Speaker 1: read because it's kind of a not a harsh criticism,
Speaker 1: but a little bit. It's a bit of a criticism
Speaker 1: on Gama de Toro, which I was I was happy
Speaker 1: to read, and it's exactly that that the writer criticizes.
Speaker 1: Is that he is one of the most vocal directors
Speaker 1: when it comes to his own films and loves to
Speaker 1: explain every bit of it. But that then doesn't allow
Speaker 1: for your interpretation of it. He is actively directing everyone's
Speaker 1: view of how he wants his movies to be, which
Speaker 1: is kind of what you want to do. But he's
Speaker 1: very heavily influencing everyone that loves him. And now you
Speaker 1: can't find a flaw in it because he told you
Speaker 1: what to look for, opposed to being a little more
Speaker 1: you know, critical of like, well, actually, I don't think
Speaker 1: it means that you know just because you say, it
Speaker 1: means that you're still you still might be blind to
Speaker 1: what you're subconsciously doing here. That's interesting though, because I
Speaker 1: think that in this movie. That's why I like was
Speaker 1: kind of going back and forth about like, Okay, is
Speaker 1: it real? Is this like just Ophelia's coping mechanism for
Speaker 1: for like dealing with living in this like fascist household,
Speaker 1: or is this are there actually like fairy tale elements
Speaker 1: happening in her to her like in reality? Because I
Speaker 1: think the movie gives you enough clues for both sides
Speaker 1: of the argument that it is still open to interpretation.
Speaker 1: San um So, I don't even know if I agree
Speaker 1: with that criticism, because even though like del Toro is like, yes,
Speaker 1: here's what I here's my intention, or here's how I
Speaker 1: read my own movie, but I think he still like
Speaker 1: gives you enough of enough opportunities to interpret it a
Speaker 1: number of different other ways, especially for the blurring of
Speaker 1: those worlds. Yeah, I kind of like, I mean, I
Speaker 1: kind of like that kind of DeSUS. I mean, we've
Speaker 1: kind of been talking about this an unusual amount lately,
Speaker 1: but we also talked about it in our episode about
Speaker 1: a girl walks home alone at night, where um Anna
Speaker 1: Lily I'm your port was very resistant to have her
Speaker 1: movie labeled as any specific type of movie. It sounds
Speaker 1: like to come from the opposite side of well, where
Speaker 1: del Toro is coming, where del Toro is possibly being
Speaker 1: overly specific about like no, I didn't mean this, I
Speaker 1: meant this, where she was like, I'm not going to
Speaker 1: tell you what anything means, and I don't want you
Speaker 1: to put any label on this movie, even if it
Speaker 1: makes it sound better or whatever. So I think that
Speaker 1: that's interesting. Yeah, I guess different directors make different choices. Um,
Speaker 1: we got to take a quick break, but then we'll
Speaker 1: come right back for more. Alright, we have emerged back
Speaker 1: out of the labyrinth and from out of the womb.
Speaker 1: That long staircase. Yeah, I wish I lived down there.
Speaker 1: That design is so yeah, I mean it's so beautiful. Yeah,
Speaker 1: where should we start where? I mean a few things
Speaker 1: that I never really noticed or kind of. Um, was
Speaker 1: really impressed by watching this movie with our lens in mind.
Speaker 1: Something that jumped out to me. I'll just jump in here. Uh,
Speaker 1: women and blood, which I never really picked up on
Speaker 1: because there are bloods of all genders still in this movie.
Speaker 1: All people have blood everyone has blood and that's just
Speaker 1: a fact, unless, of course I did just watched every
Speaker 1: Twilight movie, so not always some people drink it anyways. Uh,
Speaker 1: But just the real relationship between women and blood, I
Speaker 1: thought was really interesting and I'm pretty sure I like
Speaker 1: where most of it goes where I mean, I think
Speaker 1: it's very rare that you see a difficult pregnancy great
Speaker 1: sorite partner friend, what did you say? A difficult Gregnancy
Speaker 1: on screen, which is weird because they're incredibly common and
Speaker 1: kind of the complications that come with pregnancy, even a
Speaker 1: metaph metaphor pregnancy like this very clearly is I thought
Speaker 1: was it was cool and that you see kind of
Speaker 1: the gorrier. I thought it was kind of cool to
Speaker 1: see that. I also felt like there were connection between
Speaker 1: um and again, sometimes I'm like, Okay, a man writing
Speaker 1: the story of three women. Of course there's just gonna
Speaker 1: be a little bit too much vaginal fixation. Uh. And
Speaker 1: I don't think that this movie is really an exception
Speaker 1: to that, but it's such a good movie that I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: but like even at the end, I felt like del
Speaker 1: toro and please jump in if you're like you're reading
Speaker 1: into this it's not a vagina thing. But even at
Speaker 1: the end where it's like Ophelia's blood that that activates
Speaker 1: the floor of vagina and stuff like that, where it
Speaker 1: felt and I was able to find a few readings
Speaker 1: of this that also referenced this, so I'm like, okay,
Speaker 1: I don't feel completely off base, but just kind of
Speaker 1: the symbolism of blood in a woman's life where Ophelia
Speaker 1: obviously like that never reaches menstruating age, but her you
Speaker 1: know blood at the end kind of activates this big
Speaker 1: um change in the in the midmost of this world,
Speaker 1: or like there's Prey Nancy blood we see, there's you know,
Speaker 1: injury blood, we see, there's just I don't know, women
Speaker 1: in blood. It had me thinking, I see your point.
Speaker 1: That didn't even occur to me, And that almost feels
Speaker 1: like the type of like deep read, like over analytical
Speaker 1: kind of thing. Whenever, like I don't know, there are
Speaker 1: different movies where there will be like a mountain and
Speaker 1: people will be like, that's a ballast, that's a Paenis
Speaker 1: that suggesting this is not a floor of vagina though
Speaker 1: I don't know, I mean the floor of vagina. I
Speaker 1: didn't think about I didn't consider that because I just
Speaker 1: thought it for a labyrinth. But I do think that
Speaker 1: is a valid point to make, is the floor of vagina.
Speaker 1: But he also was very explicitly said that the tree
Speaker 1: is over there ovaries or a uterus. It did that
Speaker 1: that tree did look like I'm going to defend my
Speaker 1: floor of vagina, and like whatever women's blood saying. I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't and I don't even think this
Speaker 1: is like a misstep for this movie. But it was
Speaker 1: just something that stood out to me. And this and
Speaker 1: even the who like many of the hallways we see
Speaker 1: her walking through, uh you know, there's a fallopian vibe
Speaker 1: going on to them. Yeah, I mean, and it and
Speaker 1: it makes sense where there's I mean, so much of
Speaker 1: the movie hinges on this Gregnancy that is difficult and
Speaker 1: full of trials, and so that is true. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: And I guess the tunnel that she goes into to
Speaker 1: find the frog that could be seen as vaginal opening
Speaker 1: to so much of it is so much of it
Speaker 1: seems to be about discovering yourself and growing up and
Speaker 1: coming to maturity, so that the floor of vagina makes
Speaker 1: a lot of sense now of you know, the blood
Speaker 1: going into the floor of vagina, being a period and
Speaker 1: thus reaching maturity and finding yourself in the underworld. I
Speaker 1: don't know. Yeah, I guess I'm not totally sold on
Speaker 1: the on the period metaphor at the end. I just
Speaker 1: the relating like women in blood to a pregnancy or
Speaker 1: just vaginal blood at all. You would really not see
Speaker 1: in a big movie like this very often, but you
Speaker 1: see it pretty frequently in this movie, mostly via um
Speaker 1: Ophelia's mom. Yeah, I guess I didn't give a much
Speaker 1: thought prior to this. Yeah, it was. I truly couldn't
Speaker 1: stop any about it in this one, where I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: there for me, it's a floor of vagina and a
Speaker 1: vagina hallway. One of the first things I wanted to
Speaker 1: bring up was that this is a hero's journey style
Speaker 1: narrative where a girl is the hero um, which is
Speaker 1: pretty unique. It's not often done. Female characters rarely get
Speaker 1: to be the hero in a hero's journey story. Another
Speaker 1: example off the top of my head is another again
Speaker 1: another character named moh Wanna, but like Disney's mo Wanna,
Speaker 1: is one of only a few other like popular media
Speaker 1: hero's journey stories. I guess the new Star Wars movie
Speaker 1: like The Affair, but just definitely coming more popular, definitely
Speaker 1: not parody, and there it's only been in I think
Speaker 1: pretty recent years that filmmakers are like I would argue
Speaker 1: Hunger Games as well, Like sure, even even the worst
Speaker 1: of OZ. I mean, they definitely exist and have existed,
Speaker 1: but just definitely not not to the same for sure.
Speaker 1: So I think that is cool for sure. And also
Speaker 1: I guess worth mentioning in the case of this movie,
Speaker 1: that she doesn't survive the heroes Ernie, which is I
Speaker 1: mean it fits again, it like fits the story perfectly,
Speaker 1: but it's very sad or I mean does because she
Speaker 1: dies and gets reborn in underworld heaven. Isn't that surviving? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it definitely is in a way, um, but
Speaker 1: I mean in terms of does she get to ever
Speaker 1: speak to Mercedes again? Does she likes stuff like that?
Speaker 1: Like she I feel like, yeah, it's it's very sad.
Speaker 1: It's so sad she reached the goal that she was
Speaker 1: reaching for. But yes, because I do still like to
Speaker 1: think that it is ambiguous that like that was just
Speaker 1: her in her head and now she's happily living that
Speaker 1: fantasy in the afterlife. But was it real, I would
Speaker 1: like to I guess, I don't know. I know I
Speaker 1: wanted to be real. Um. I also like if we're
Speaker 1: just in the way that I don't know. There's a
Speaker 1: number of between our three main female characters. Everyone has
Speaker 1: a different dynamic and a different type of relationship, which
Speaker 1: is really cool. Um, And you kind of get these
Speaker 1: three very different types of women and they have very
Speaker 1: different responses to the like very oppressive force that's on
Speaker 1: top of them. Right where you have Carmen, who is
Speaker 1: I mean, and and Carmen is very fascinating to me,
Speaker 1: and I I love her so much because she is
Speaker 1: the most deferential to the patriarchy. But I feel like
Speaker 1: a lesser movie would make you feel like and you know,
Speaker 1: look what happened to her, But but you know exactly
Speaker 1: why she is making the choices that she's making. It's
Speaker 1: made very clear, even when it sucks and it's upsetting,
Speaker 1: and you can tell that she is not always thrilled
Speaker 1: to have to make them. But with her, it's this
Speaker 1: I don't know, like something I'd never really gave a
Speaker 1: lot of thought too, but kind of like towing that
Speaker 1: line of like she's trying to you know, like there's
Speaker 1: a class thing at play for her as well, which
Speaker 1: I feel like it is symbolized through when Ophelia gets
Speaker 1: the dress all fucked up and Carmen is really upset
Speaker 1: because that symbolizes a higher class status, and it seems
Speaker 1: like the trade off for that is her having to
Speaker 1: put up with some of the most horrifying sexism of
Speaker 1: all time. But it also the movie doesn't I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean, she does die right so, but I but
Speaker 1: I did feel like the movie didn't think less of
Speaker 1: her for making those choices, which made me, Yeah, I
Speaker 1: really love her. And even though you know, it's like
Speaker 1: she's not the like rebel of the story, but her
Speaker 1: narrative is no less important or valuable, and that is,
Speaker 1: I think, really beautiful. We've talked about the from time
Speaker 1: to time on the podcast about how women not to
Speaker 1: the same extent in contemporary times, but definitely in decades
Speaker 1: past and centuries passed in millennia past, where women have
Speaker 1: been at such a major disadvantage in life, where they
Speaker 1: basically have to make huge sacrifices to survive. And it
Speaker 1: felt to me like she was a widow, her her husband,
Speaker 1: her husband died. Did they say he died in the war,
Speaker 1: so he probably he died in the in the you know,
Speaker 1: Spanish civil wars about to have a great beard. I
Speaker 1: forget he looks like at the end, I was like, well, cool, Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's more or less Santa Claus. And so he died.
Speaker 1: What I'm guessing was quite a while ago. Her mother
Speaker 1: had to like take over his business as a tailor
Speaker 1: in like the shop. It was war time. She was struggling,
Speaker 1: and then this distinguished military man comes along and probably
Speaker 1: like I don't know the circumstances of their marriage, but
Speaker 1: she probably just saw him as like, well, he can
Speaker 1: provide for me and my daughter, so I will marry
Speaker 1: him because what are my choices, which I feel like
Speaker 1: is like illustrated really clearly in that scene where Ophelia
Speaker 1: it doesn't understand why her mother felt that she had
Speaker 1: to get married again, and her mom says, I was
Speaker 1: alone too long, and then it's it's so sad because
Speaker 1: I feel like you weren't alone. I was right there,
Speaker 1: but just there's there's a level that Ophelia doesn't yet understand,
Speaker 1: like what it takes to survive under I mean, almost
Speaker 1: every kind of oppression you can imagine for sure. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so this was like a choice of survival she had
Speaker 1: to make by marrying Vidal and then and then he
Speaker 1: turns out to be a horrible, abusive piece of ship
Speaker 1: that is unfortunately the case all too often. But yeah,
Speaker 1: again it's like what choice did she have if she
Speaker 1: was going to provide for herself and her daughter? So, um, yeah,
Speaker 1: I thought that was an interesting exploration. I wonder if
Speaker 1: that could have been dived into just a little bit more.
Speaker 1: I don't know if there was necessarily space or need
Speaker 1: for it, but I kind of she was the character,
Speaker 1: the female character to me that I felt if if
Speaker 1: anyone could have gotten a little bit more development, it
Speaker 1: could have been Ophelia's mom. But um yeah, I still
Speaker 1: I think it was still interesting the way that her
Speaker 1: kind of circumstances were presented to us. I think she
Speaker 1: also plays she's kind of used as the perfect example
Speaker 1: of how all women at that time we're just like
Speaker 1: you're just shoved down to nothing, Like you're just constantly
Speaker 1: gotten ship after ship after ship. There's no easy way out,
Speaker 1: and so she kind of, I think, unfortunately, has to
Speaker 1: die to prove that point. You're like, nope, you're just
Speaker 1: not gonna get anything and then we're just gonna kill you.
Speaker 1: And that's that. Yeah. I was feeling that way on
Speaker 1: this few as well, where it's like they're whatever, they're
Speaker 1: these three women and girls are representing kind of like
Speaker 1: three different ways to approach this oppressive force and what
Speaker 1: are the outcomes where she's very deferential to it? And
Speaker 1: I feel like like you're just saying your estortle, Like
Speaker 1: the movie doesn't want you to really take away, like, well,
Speaker 1: you should just be passive to the worst person in
Speaker 1: the entire world and you'll you'll get out just fine
Speaker 1: where And and I think it's like really telling that
Speaker 1: I don't know, I mean, I always am like doesn't
Speaker 1: feel you have to die um, but that Mercedes is
Speaker 1: the sole character to kind of get out um and
Speaker 1: be able to continue on in this version of the world.
Speaker 1: And how it's like someone who is from a lower
Speaker 1: class and is you know, expected to be deferential to
Speaker 1: the same person, but finds a way to navigate around
Speaker 1: that and kind of rebel and push anyways. And to
Speaker 1: have that character be the one who survives and goes on,
Speaker 1: you know, it's like the metaphor isn't a softball it's
Speaker 1: like I get it, but I like that, yet there's
Speaker 1: still again, I'm gonna keep referencing the same There's a
Speaker 1: book that I have. It's a great book, yet is it.
Speaker 1: It's called The Devil's Backbone and Pans Labyrinth Studies in
Speaker 1: the Horror film and they're about these two specific films.
Speaker 1: The Quest for Meaning in Pans Labyrinthe by Romana Cortie,
Speaker 1: I don't know is the one that's a little bit
Speaker 1: more critical. And she will also point out that even
Speaker 1: this happy sad ending is still a huge sugarcoating of
Speaker 1: the situation because Franco continued to rule for years after
Speaker 1: to nineteen, so like there isn't even in that little
Speaker 1: bit of hope that like there is no happy ending
Speaker 1: for them. It's fun And that gets mentioned to where
Speaker 1: I think it's Mercedes talking to her brother or different
Speaker 1: rebels are talking to each other and they'll say, like,
Speaker 1: even if we can like kill Vidal, they're just gonna
Speaker 1: send another one. And if we kill him, they're going
Speaker 1: to send another one. So yeah, it's just like in reality,
Speaker 1: like Mercedes survives to the end of this movie, but like,
Speaker 1: but who knows what happens there's no guarantee that in
Speaker 1: like a year, she might not have been killed by
Speaker 1: the fascist regime. Yeah, so yeah, I was. I was
Speaker 1: kind of like, I like that they at least reference that,
Speaker 1: but like I I also see her criticism that that
Speaker 1: kind of is like we I mean, in any time
Speaker 1: like one character represents I mean, I think that that's
Speaker 1: the downside of having like Mr Patriarchy as your villain,
Speaker 1: of like, well, once you've killed Mr. Fascism, Mr Fascism,
Speaker 1: hyphen Patriarchy, joy can spread across the land again, when
Speaker 1: of course it's not never one person you know. Yet
Speaker 1: he's still such you're saying early, he's like a perfect
Speaker 1: villain because he's so brutal and evil and there's no
Speaker 1: way to sympathize with him really, which you also understand why,
Speaker 1: I mean, you don't understand like it not you know, sympathetically.
Speaker 1: But he is just a disgusting product of the time
Speaker 1: with major daddy issues. Oh my god, I can't wait
Speaker 1: to talk about his daddy issues. And the daddy issues
Speaker 1: in this movie are running rampant. There's an exchange I
Speaker 1: really like between Vidal and the doctor character who the
Speaker 1: doctor is tending to one of the rebels that the
Speaker 1: fashion the fashion guys have captured. They're torturing him to
Speaker 1: get him to talk, and um, the doctor comes in
Speaker 1: to tend to him after he's been tortured, and the
Speaker 1: bull guys like, please kill me, and so the doctor complies,
Speaker 1: is like yes, this is like we have to make
Speaker 1: sure you can't they don't get any more information out
Speaker 1: of you. And then Videl comes in and he's like,
Speaker 1: you disobeyed me. Why did you do that? Why didn't
Speaker 1: you just obey me? And um, the doctors like, well,
Speaker 1: to obey someone without question is something that only someone
Speaker 1: like you can do and not me, which is like
Speaker 1: what fascism is is, you know, just like obeying without question.
Speaker 1: And then that ties back in the end in a
Speaker 1: in a really cool thematic way where the fawn is like, okay, Ophelia,
Speaker 1: I need you to just bring your brother. Don't ask questions,
Speaker 1: and then when he's like we need to like spill
Speaker 1: his blood for this whole thing to work, you can't like,
Speaker 1: don't question it, and she's just like no, like, I'm
Speaker 1: not some like Patsy, I'm not some or not's not
Speaker 1: the right word, but I'm not some just like follower
Speaker 1: who's she said that though like a Newsy fucking Patsy,
Speaker 1: and that's rewarded because she's like, well then she you know,
Speaker 1: she sacrifices herself and and you know, I don't know,
Speaker 1: the moral of the story is just don't follow orders
Speaker 1: without questioning them, because then you become a fascist the end. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it's like Ophelia. I don't know, I'm really
Speaker 1: because you've you are so much more entrenched in the
Speaker 1: discourse around this movie than than we are Ophelia. I
Speaker 1: I it makes me sad that Ophelia dies, but it
Speaker 1: does I mean, if we're going with the read where
Speaker 1: she dies, and I think that that makes a kind
Speaker 1: of interesting complex point where like you have one character
Speaker 1: who differs to the oppressive forest and it kills them.
Speaker 1: You have one character who pushes against the oppressive force
Speaker 1: and survives for now, and then you have Ophelia who
Speaker 1: pushes against the oppressive force and loses. And just I
Speaker 1: don't know, seeing all those different kinds, like, it doesn't
Speaker 1: necessarily mean that there's one way to go against an
Speaker 1: oppressive force that's going to be a win. It just
Speaker 1: means that, you know, you have to do. It shows
Speaker 1: the weight of the oppression of like this is such
Speaker 1: a massive, massive front of evil, which is hard to
Speaker 1: get around. But another weird is the fun gas little philia,
Speaker 1: right for sure, because that's what that's that's the weird,
Speaker 1: that thing that I still kind of have some trouble
Speaker 1: under standing why. I suppose, like was the eating of
Speaker 1: the grapes saying you'll never see me again but then
Speaker 1: coming back for a second chance part of the test
Speaker 1: or was is that just like all of this one
Speaker 1: long gaslight? And the other problem in this story really
Speaker 1: has the number one has the number one self proclaimed
Speaker 1: Gammo fan. I also have to bring up a lot
Speaker 1: of the hiccups. But the odd thing in this story
Speaker 1: is that it's about Princess Juana running away from a
Speaker 1: patriarchy into a human evil evil like very oppressive patriarchy.
Speaker 1: You want to return back to the original patriarchy. So
Speaker 1: there's never really a freedom that she gets. There's a
Speaker 1: happier ending, but it's she still goes from patriarchy to patriarchy, right.
Speaker 1: It makes you wonder why she ran away from the
Speaker 1: underworld in the first place, Like I'd imagine it was
Speaker 1: out of curiosity, but that is I hadn't I hadn't
Speaker 1: even considered it from that angle, and like, yeah, she
Speaker 1: is like it is another daddy, daddy's own, but a
Speaker 1: nicer daddy this time. Yeah. Well, I was like, is
Speaker 1: it like, I mean, it's not like The Little Mermaid
Speaker 1: where she's like, I fell in love with a man
Speaker 1: from above of so I have to go up there.
Speaker 1: I have to see a plot which and then you know,
Speaker 1: get some legs and then become a human. It's nothing like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess we don't know why she ran away or
Speaker 1: like that part of this story doesn't apply to her
Speaker 1: that I was kind of struggling with that. To her,
Speaker 1: I'm like, where she gets to the labyrinth and then
Speaker 1: the fon is like, you're the main character in the story.
Speaker 1: But then it's like, well, then why doesn't she know
Speaker 1: about anything that happens to the character before because she
Speaker 1: loses her memory as as soon as she comes, so
Speaker 1: she forgets why the first patriarchy is bad. So the
Speaker 1: ending of the movie is she's going to go back
Speaker 1: and then find out soon I mean patriarchy bad, but
Speaker 1: they never also explicitly say bad, So I like, what wait, truly,
Speaker 1: I just imagine like the kind of situation of like
Speaker 1: I want to live amongst the humans to see what
Speaker 1: it's like, but then I want to be where are
Speaker 1: the people are exactly, and the other kind of she's
Speaker 1: a try so you can't falter for it. But the
Speaker 1: other odd thing about the situation is that the world
Speaker 1: is so oppressive she would rather leave, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. The kind of feels like a in the
Speaker 1: current situation, it feels a little bit like I hate
Speaker 1: both of the candidates, so I'm not going to vote.
Speaker 1: Oh so I'm just gonna like I'm out of here.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm moving to Canada, moving, and she's literally moving
Speaker 1: to Wow, And I'm like, she's a child, so of
Speaker 1: course that that's the option we'd all take. At least
Speaker 1: she can't vote. Uh, yeah, that makes sense. It's always
Speaker 1: I mean, and I guess the other the other way
Speaker 1: that I saw to read that happening was like whatever
Speaker 1: you if you're going from, Like she pushed against the
Speaker 1: oppressive force. It lost her her life, but then it
Speaker 1: kind of also won her this immortality that's implied of
Speaker 1: like almost like a Martyrie martyr for the cause kind
Speaker 1: of immortality. So even though she's physically dead. Maybe I
Speaker 1: don't know, it's like her her death meant something in
Speaker 1: the human world and it impacted people in the human world,
Speaker 1: which is I mean, yeah, I don't know. That's the
Speaker 1: positive spin I can see on that, but it also
Speaker 1: could be seen as moving to Canada. I had not
Speaker 1: considered the martyr I saw. I saw more as it
Speaker 1: like another victim of the Franco regime. But the martyrdom
Speaker 1: of it is that changes everything. I hope, hopefully, I'm like,
Speaker 1: you would hope right that, like Mercedes survives, and hopefully
Speaker 1: she survives long enough to tell the other rebels about this,
Speaker 1: like little girl who wouldn't listen to the captain and
Speaker 1: like had this big imagination and lost her whole family
Speaker 1: and gave her life up because she wouldn't capitulate or whatever.
Speaker 1: I hope, I mean, I hope because otherwise it's like,
Speaker 1: oh God, life is so many ningless. And on that note,
Speaker 1: let's take a quick break and then come back for
Speaker 1: more discussion and we're back, just really quick stuff. I mean,
Speaker 1: this was kind of like I guess the one oh
Speaker 1: one of why Ophelia is such a cool character, but
Speaker 1: just so it's all said, put it out there. She's
Speaker 1: she's a little rebellious kid. She doesn't wear fancy dresses
Speaker 1: that look like exactly like the Alice in Wonderland dress
Speaker 1: because I'm sure a reason when you tell her to.
Speaker 1: I like that she has this really rebellious spirit, but
Speaker 1: it doesn't like it doesn't mean that she's a bad kid.
Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of times you see that
Speaker 1: in movies where it's like you just need to learn
Speaker 1: to be good, where she knows that her mom is wrong.
Speaker 1: She doesn't understand why her mom is making the decision
Speaker 1: or wrong by her view right, she doesn't understand why
Speaker 1: her mom is making the decisions that she's making. But
Speaker 1: it doesn't destroy their relationship. It definitely affects it, but
Speaker 1: it they still have this like strong love and respect
Speaker 1: for each other that doesn't come apart even though they
Speaker 1: are being true to what they think is right in
Speaker 1: very different ways, which is something you don't usually get
Speaker 1: in a story like this where it's like, I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess I'm just in this headspace because we are
Speaker 1: talking about the Little Mermaid a lot. But like Ariel
Speaker 1: disobeys her dad and he's like, Cia, you suck you're bad,
Speaker 1: And I like that happens in stories with young rebellious
Speaker 1: protagonists and a lot of their parents are like, no,
Speaker 1: I don't see it your way. I was never a child.
Speaker 1: I'm going to destroy your room full of a little
Speaker 1: weird your labyrinth. But in this I like that there
Speaker 1: are so many shades of gray to the mother daughter relationship,
Speaker 1: even though you don't see them together that that much.
Speaker 1: But even that moment where I don't know, my favorite
Speaker 1: moment they have together on this watch is like when
Speaker 1: she's in the bathtub and she's just disobeyed for the
Speaker 1: five millionth time, and her mom comes in and is like, well,
Speaker 1: we're very disappointed, and you were really frustrated, and the
Speaker 1: captain is more disappointed than me Cia, and I was like, okay,
Speaker 1: that's like a really lovely and then Ophelia like gives
Speaker 1: this little smirk like I'm glad I disappointed him because
Speaker 1: I hate him. She knew and I and also that's
Speaker 1: like indicating to her that her mom is not actually
Speaker 1: that disappointed in her, and it's just like, which is lovely.
Speaker 1: I like. I like that. I also like the relationship
Speaker 1: dynamics between the three of them, The three the three
Speaker 1: main female protagonists being the mom, because you have the
Speaker 1: mom who's like struggling and trying to do the best
Speaker 1: for her mother, I mean for her daughter. But then
Speaker 1: Ophelia also goes to I have to say that with um,
Speaker 1: I guess the things that she can't talk about with
Speaker 1: their mother. And I appreciate that being there in the
Speaker 1: movie because that I feel like that never that doesn't
Speaker 1: come up often with a child talking to an adult
Speaker 1: about kind of grown up things, I guess, or things
Speaker 1: like this is how I feel because they have to talk.
Speaker 1: They're the only two that can talk to each other
Speaker 1: really about, Like I'm in this secret rebellion, I was
Speaker 1: like I met a faun though at a lot of
Speaker 1: points to Mercedes listens, but it's also kind of like
Speaker 1: magic isn't real, right, But I think that's also just
Speaker 1: from coming from being hardened from flipping in a fascist regime.
Speaker 1: Perhaps what I like that Mercedes does that Ophelia's mom
Speaker 1: doesn't is that, yeah, Like it is definitely clear from
Speaker 1: the beginning that Mercedes is like, Okay, this is like
Speaker 1: a kid thing and it's an imagination thing, but she
Speaker 1: doesn't try to really take that from Ophelia because it
Speaker 1: seems like, I mean, Merses especially is so entrenched in
Speaker 1: like some really difficult shit, and it seems like she
Speaker 1: sees this kid and she's like, oh my gosh, this
Speaker 1: kid has such a wild imagination and has so much
Speaker 1: going on in their inner life that at least doesn't
Speaker 1: it's a projection of living in a fascist regime, but
Speaker 1: it's at least fun and it's hers, And so she
Speaker 1: doesn't try to be like this is fake. I think
Speaker 1: she's just like, Okay, don't like, don't take things too far.
Speaker 1: I don't know. And she also says like she feels
Speaker 1: like a cool aunt for her friend talked to, especially
Speaker 1: because she says like, no, I don't believe in those
Speaker 1: things now, but I did when I was your it.
Speaker 1: You know, I did when I was a kid. So
Speaker 1: it's like she's letting Ophelia having it and like not
Speaker 1: telling her not to believe in those things, whereas her
Speaker 1: mom is like, these are you just need to stop
Speaker 1: reading so many fairy tales, like there is no magic,
Speaker 1: and so like her mom sort of forcing her own
Speaker 1: little bit of oppression on Ophelia, whereas Mercedes is like
Speaker 1: you like yeah, but like believe in whatever you want
Speaker 1: to believe in if it helps you cope with these
Speaker 1: awful times. I'm going off that. I mean, it's like
Speaker 1: her style. You were saying earlier that the fun is
Speaker 1: like an asshole for sure, Like he's definitely gaslighting and
Speaker 1: confusing her constantly, and like the goal of what he
Speaker 1: actually wants is never clear, and if if that is
Speaker 1: kind of like her projection of the world she's around,
Speaker 1: where like it's this inner labyrinth that she has to
Speaker 1: navigate that's full of male figures that she's kind of
Speaker 1: afraid of that are giving her. That's like I don't know,
Speaker 1: just like providing endless confusion and lack of clarity, and like, oh,
Speaker 1: maybe that's what it is. I am always I guess
Speaker 1: just using this lens going in it. I guess I
Speaker 1: never really thought very hard about how like the mythical
Speaker 1: creature she encounters, the fairies, are coded female or they
Speaker 1: use she prone up, but but you don't really know
Speaker 1: you don't, I mean other than their protectors, but like
Speaker 1: you don't really know much about them. But like the
Speaker 1: two characters you get to know in the Labyrinth are
Speaker 1: too kind of deceptive. And then in the in the
Speaker 1: second villain, what do we what? The Paleman's case is
Speaker 1: like terrifying a little more on the nose too, But
Speaker 1: that that also, I think lends nicely in with it,
Speaker 1: like these are things that that she's projecting the pale
Speaker 1: Man is because I hadn't realized how close those scenes were.
Speaker 1: But the big dinner scene it's almost right before the
Speaker 1: Paleman scene, and they're exactly mirrored. So the Paleman's cave
Speaker 1: that is a little more Catholic churchy, yeah, which Gammo
Speaker 1: has said it's supposed to represent the Catholic Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: that scene is a criticism of that institution. Right. I
Speaker 1: don't know if I even made that connection. Every time
Speaker 1: I watched this movie, I'm just like so dazzled by
Speaker 1: like the visuals, and I'm I'm always like, oh right,
Speaker 1: there's also like symbolism and stuff that I keep forgetting
Speaker 1: to pay attention to. I watched it twice for this
Speaker 1: and both times by the end, I was like fuck,
Speaker 1: I wasn't even like thinking like research, I was just watching.
Speaker 1: I watched at once for fun because I knew I
Speaker 1: wasn't going to be able to focus because it's so
Speaker 1: good and I haven't seen it in years and then
Speaker 1: the second time for analysis and I still didn't pick
Speaker 1: up everything. It's just so rich. But yeah, it's like
Speaker 1: if it's I mean, has has del Toro said explicitly
Speaker 1: that the creature she comes across in the laborate are
Speaker 1: just are her interpretation of what's going on in front
Speaker 1: of her. I don't think he said that, though, I
Speaker 1: do like that, but he did say that, like the
Speaker 1: pale Man is a like reflection of Vidal in a
Speaker 1: like as above so below type of got it? Can
Speaker 1: we talk about Mercedes? So one of the bigger cathartic
Speaker 1: moments or storylines for me was with her, where basically
Speaker 1: what happens is that Vidal underestimates her because she is
Speaker 1: a woman. Because there's that scene where he's about to
Speaker 1: interrogate and torture her after he's figured out that she's
Speaker 1: working with the rebellion, and he sends like the his
Speaker 1: like second in command guy away and the guy's like
Speaker 1: are you sure? Like don't you want me to be here?
Speaker 1: And he's like, for God's sake, she's just a woman,
Speaker 1: you know, Like what what could have possibly happen? She's
Speaker 1: not going to do anything to me, right, and that
Speaker 1: that's like what kills him exactly, yes, and he's like,
Speaker 1: you found my weakness. It's pride. And then two seconds later,
Speaker 1: she stabs him in the back jokers him. I forgot
Speaker 1: that she jokes him. I was like, oh no, don't
Speaker 1: joker him. It also looks like she stabs him in
Speaker 1: the heart, and I'm like, how did he not die
Speaker 1: from that wound? I don't know. He's a super super villain,
Speaker 1: you know. There are certain moments where I'm like, I
Speaker 1: he's he gets injured so many times, he's like restpute
Speaker 1: and grade like number of attempts made on his life
Speaker 1: before he finally dies. Yeah, but so yeah, She's basically
Speaker 1: just like it's because I'm a woman that you never
Speaker 1: suspected me, Like this is how I got away with it.
Speaker 1: I was invisible to you. And then she cuts up
Speaker 1: his face, tells him you won't be the first pig
Speaker 1: I gutt it, and we're just like, whoa go. I
Speaker 1: didn't remember that part of the movie. I guess I
Speaker 1: had just kind of forgotten that since the last time
Speaker 1: I watched it. And maybe it's a little just like
Speaker 1: I don't know, just like kind of surface level, like
Speaker 1: whou feminism go? But it worked on me. I was like,
Speaker 1: hell yeah, Mercy best. But then it's the thing that's
Speaker 1: sad about it is that she she does. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm glad that she I mean, of any character in
Speaker 1: the whole movie, she well, yeah, she like her getting
Speaker 1: the killing blow on him, and that second scene where
Speaker 1: he's like, you know, trying to do the honorable soldier
Speaker 1: thing and be like, tell my Greg, like what time
Speaker 1: it was when I died and she's like, Greg, won't
Speaker 1: even know your name was Greg, and then she kills
Speaker 1: Like that is like, so what made me sad on
Speaker 1: the second watch for this recording was she says explicitly like, motherfucker,
Speaker 1: don't touch the girl. But then he does, he kills
Speaker 1: he kills her. Yeah, but then he's killed for that,
Speaker 1: but it's like he still kills her. He didn't. I
Speaker 1: just I'm like, why didn't that fascions learn something? Because
Speaker 1: they don't have the capacity to learn many cases, And
Speaker 1: I like that they give that. Delta gives Mercedes an
Speaker 1: in her life as well, because I feel like sometimes
Speaker 1: with like rebel characters, all you know about them is
Speaker 1: like they are fighting for the right thing, and you don't.
Speaker 1: And I mean honestly, like Mercedes being a member of
Speaker 1: the underclass on top of being underestimated as a woman,
Speaker 1: on top of having a huge heart and sense of
Speaker 1: direction is enough. But I like that we also see
Speaker 1: that she is doing this for her family, and she's
Speaker 1: like I like that you kind of get to know
Speaker 1: some people in her world as well, because I always
Speaker 1: kind of forget that. You meet her brother and you
Speaker 1: get to like get some insight into why she does
Speaker 1: what she does, um and that they're kind of working together,
Speaker 1: and I just I like that. I like that you
Speaker 1: get that background for her. I think, in uh watching it,
Speaker 1: that scene is awesome, But in also true horror fashion,
Speaker 1: I find myself asking why didn't you kill him then?
Speaker 1: Like you had your chance. You could have killed the
Speaker 1: villain right then and there, especially in reference to gutting
Speaker 1: a pig, which you get more grotesque with it, you
Speaker 1: would slice the throat open, thus killing the pig, killing
Speaker 1: the man. I like, you had it right there, and
Speaker 1: they're going to try to kill her either way, so
Speaker 1: she might as well just finish the job. But I
Speaker 1: think it also those speaks to be like huge gap
Speaker 1: in capacity for violence, whereas he would have no trouble
Speaker 1: doing that. But she is like, you know, I'm not
Speaker 1: an evil person like you are, Like I wouldn't cut
Speaker 1: someone throat like that. Like, yeah, she's probably like I
Speaker 1: wouldn't stoop to murder. Maybe, but it's just like when
Speaker 1: he brutally kills an entire family for nothing. Right, it's
Speaker 1: like some time like considering the circumstances, I don't know,
Speaker 1: slid his throat, like he was incapacitated, he was injured
Speaker 1: enough that she probably could have done it. Yeah, then
Speaker 1: you get into a whole the whole like spiral of
Speaker 1: Then that changes the movie. Then you got to write
Speaker 1: it differently, so like how would failure have survived or
Speaker 1: how you know, how would this change? And I, you know,
Speaker 1: I just want to see what does that look like?
Speaker 1: We need some AlterNet endings. Speaking of spiral, the mo
Speaker 1: Wanna spiral from Disney's Mohanna is also on the Faun's head.
Speaker 1: It was like, all this spiral imagery across both movies,
Speaker 1: there's a conspiracy here. I was like it because I
Speaker 1: was about to be like and that is the work
Speaker 1: of the illuminati, And for the next forty five minutes,
Speaker 1: I would like to take you starting with jay Z
Speaker 1: and Beyonce at the top. Let's so they're obviously in
Speaker 1: control of the app Um, yeah, a lot of I
Speaker 1: mean there's Honestly, the movie is so dense that there
Speaker 1: were some images and references where I'm like, I know
Speaker 1: that this probably means something, but but there's only so
Speaker 1: much time. Um. This was the first viewing of this
Speaker 1: movie that I saw the captain's constant razor blading of
Speaker 1: his face to have some significance of like he he
Speaker 1: has this obsession with control and order, but also and
Speaker 1: and you know, is down to use violence to achieve
Speaker 1: kind of arbitrary order of his choosing. So I was like, okay,
Speaker 1: I get at that time, delto I see you, I
Speaker 1: see you. I used to just think this guy grows
Speaker 1: a beard really fast, but I was wrong. Um, it
Speaker 1: was like, what does what could that mean? He beards fast?
Speaker 1: I love the moment where like he holds the blade
Speaker 1: to the mirror and cuts his own throat, because like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I feel like that's the moment where you've already seen
Speaker 1: a do all these scene acts, but that's when you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: he like he loves this, Like he this is what
Speaker 1: he wants he's just so obsessed with death and dying
Speaker 1: and wanting to go out in a blaze of glory.
Speaker 1: And it's there and it's subtle, but I would I
Speaker 1: do want to know more about the daddy issues. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: so let's talk about this. So this sort of I've
Speaker 1: found this really interesting because I mean, Jamie, we've also
Speaker 1: talked a lot about how, like so many movies just
Speaker 1: kind of boiled down to like a father son relationship
Speaker 1: or that's always some undertone or overtone and a lot
Speaker 1: of movies. So here I appreciate that we get an
Speaker 1: exploration of how that kind of obsessiveness with like my
Speaker 1: father and my son can be really toxic, and that
Speaker 1: it can stem from a really kind of morbid place
Speaker 1: that has nothing to do with familial love and it
Speaker 1: has everything to do with just like like societal roles
Speaker 1: and expectations and all of ye. Yeah, so the Dell
Speaker 1: is obsessed with his father, we come to learn, which
Speaker 1: we learned because he keeps his broken watch with him,
Speaker 1: and then we find out the backstory of this watch
Speaker 1: where his father died heroically in battle and as he
Speaker 1: was dying, he like smashed the face of the watch
Speaker 1: so that his son would know the exact time he died,
Speaker 1: because that's how a brave man dies, according to this,
Speaker 1: Because like, this is my first time hearing this, but
Speaker 1: I'll I'll go with him. That's also such an an
Speaker 1: odd thing for you to want your kids, like I
Speaker 1: want him to know that time. Not that I loved
Speaker 1: him that, but the time when its like this time
Speaker 1: has actually been very traumatizing for him to know all
Speaker 1: this time. And here's something I don't get, so maybe
Speaker 1: you can help me understand this. But so we find
Speaker 1: out this backstory and then the guy at Dinners like Fidel,
Speaker 1: is that true? And he's like, no, that's nonsense. My
Speaker 1: father didn't even own a watch, even though we've seen
Speaker 1: said watch with the smashed face of it many times
Speaker 1: because he's constantly looking at it and like fiddling with it.
Speaker 1: So I was confused as to why he would deny
Speaker 1: that same that. That's kind of why it made it
Speaker 1: so curious to me, because he's so obviously obsessed with it.
Speaker 1: But then why would he deny it? Yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: know if it was more of his like pride or
Speaker 1: he's like, I'm I don't have feelings I don't keep
Speaker 1: my daddy's broken watch with me, and I don't put
Speaker 1: it under my polluminate sleep. Like I kind of it
Speaker 1: was easy for me to read that as he was lying,
Speaker 1: because otherwise it does kind of muddle that. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I was a little confused about that as well. But
Speaker 1: why would he lie? I think it has to do
Speaker 1: somewhat with a like having to live under that shadow,
Speaker 1: because the officer was just like your father was such
Speaker 1: an incredible soldier undertone that you'll never be able to
Speaker 1: live up to. Uh, And so he's like fuck him.
Speaker 1: That's you know, you didn't have a watch him. But
Speaker 1: one of the other like visual things that Germo has
Speaker 1: noted that I don't think I ever would have understood
Speaker 1: otherwise was that, uh, the entire movie lives alone in
Speaker 1: what I think is the mill or whatever that giant
Speaker 1: room is. But that giant mill symbolizes a giant broken
Speaker 1: clock because the background is all cogs and machines that
Speaker 1: are not moving. So he is so obsessed. He's literally,
Speaker 1: you know, cocooned himself inside of a broken clock. That's
Speaker 1: all he lives for is smashing that clock and to die. Yes,
Speaker 1: I read that too. Yeah, that I was like, well,
Speaker 1: I guess I have to watch the movie again. Fine. Um,
Speaker 1: what I found funny about this whole watch thing is
Speaker 1: it basically the same exact thing happens in pulp fiction
Speaker 1: when Christopher Walkin comes in and he's like, hey, Bruce
Speaker 1: Willis character as a kid, be your daddy kept this
Speaker 1: watch up his butthole for two years so that I
Speaker 1: couldn't then give it to you. And it's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I don't know, but but like just a little bit
Speaker 1: more about this kind of father's son obsession, saying where
Speaker 1: then we learn before the baby is before baby Greg
Speaker 1: is born, they don't know the sex of the baby,
Speaker 1: but he just keeps assuming it's a boy, you know,
Speaker 1: biologically male. I'm like annoyed that he was right about that,
Speaker 1: But it is a Greg everyone everyone, I mean, so
Speaker 1: does um Carmen and uh Failia also takes this at
Speaker 1: face value as well, So I yeah, it would be
Speaker 1: interesting if they turned out to not be right. But um,
Speaker 1: I guess it it serves the story that it is
Speaker 1: like a male baby because then he can continue to
Speaker 1: be obsessed with it. And it does make that moment
Speaker 1: at the end with like you mentioned, Jamie, where Mercedes
Speaker 1: is like, you're son, isn't even gonna know your name? Bang,
Speaker 1: You're dead Greg SRG. Yeah, and then you would you
Speaker 1: would think best case scenario. And again, because we're talking
Speaker 1: about such a violent period of time, we don't know,
Speaker 1: but ideally baby Greg will be brought up by by
Speaker 1: rebels and would be kind of you know, that makes
Speaker 1: that's another way in which Ophelia's sacrifice would not have
Speaker 1: been in vain. That she is inadvertently getting, you know,
Speaker 1: her little brother a better life, um, at least spiritually
Speaker 1: and probably in every way than he would have had
Speaker 1: if he had stayed with the Captain. Yes, I had
Speaker 1: a quick thing I wanted to address here that um
Speaker 1: that I mean, it's it's kind of service, but I
Speaker 1: just wanted to, I guess, just even reference it because
Speaker 1: it seems like del Toro is kind of unambiguously referencing
Speaker 1: Alice in Wonderland a few different times in this um,
Speaker 1: like most prominently with the literal dress, which she isn't
Speaker 1: you know, very fond of. But there it is of
Speaker 1: this story that is usually told and written by men,
Speaker 1: that features a young girl going into a tunnel and
Speaker 1: learning going into a floor vagina, learning a thing or
Speaker 1: two about a sing or two, and then coming out
Speaker 1: on the other side in one way. So I just
Speaker 1: wanted to reference um the other movies, some of which
Speaker 1: we've covered, that take the same tax. So obviously it
Speaker 1: seems like the at least the popular genesis of it
Speaker 1: is Alice in Wonderland, where a young girl falls into
Speaker 1: a floor of vagina and meets a bunch of men
Speaker 1: that don't like her and and also in that case
Speaker 1: a mean queen, and then you know, she comes out.
Speaker 1: We've covered Coraline. That is another another a vagina that
Speaker 1: pops up, swallows her up. She learns a lot about her,
Speaker 1: her role in the world, and her feelings about her parents.
Speaker 1: She's popped out of the vagina in the world. This
Speaker 1: also happens in Spirited Away, a movie. I have not
Speaker 1: seen it in many years, so I can't speak to
Speaker 1: the specifics of it, but it's much the same. Uh.
Speaker 1: Young girl tumbles into a natural vagina, pops out changed um,
Speaker 1: and then pans labyrinth where this is This is the
Speaker 1: floor of vagina approach where she goes down a series
Speaker 1: of tunnels, meets a series of foes, and then I mean,
Speaker 1: I think the most tragic example where she doesn't survived
Speaker 1: in the traditional sense, but her memory survives, and she
Speaker 1: kind of graduates into she's not even going to move
Speaker 1: out of the floor of vagina, She's just going to
Speaker 1: live there. I also wanted to uh, back up my
Speaker 1: my Little Journey to Womanhood metaphord, not because not just
Speaker 1: because they're is such a huge precedent for it in
Speaker 1: fiction from male a tours that are generally very very loved.
Speaker 1: So again, I'm not like dumping on it, but it
Speaker 1: is a thing I did a little bit of research on,
Speaker 1: like the Fun and Pan, The fun and and the like.
Speaker 1: The mythological creature of Pan traditionally is like a very
Speaker 1: sexual character. So if we're reading that, you know, Pan
Speaker 1: is presenting himself and his little goat legs to to Ophelia,
Speaker 1: saying a series of things to her that are very confusing,
Speaker 1: giving her a bunch of what seems to her like
Speaker 1: random goals that she hasn't fully understand. I feel like
Speaker 1: that does lend itself to the read of like she
Speaker 1: is on this journey towards figuring out what womanhood is
Speaker 1: to her, because literally, the sex God shows up and
Speaker 1: she was like, I don't know what this guy is
Speaker 1: talking about because she's ted. So that's my little rant
Speaker 1: on girls and holes. We love to toss a girl
Speaker 1: into a hole in popular culture. We just love it.
Speaker 1: I was worried about that too, because it's called pans
Speaker 1: labyrinth in the English translation of the title, but not
Speaker 1: in the Spanish one. It just translates to the labyrinth
Speaker 1: of the fawn or the fawn's labyrinth. But I guess
Speaker 1: because Pan was a more recognizable thing than a fawn,
Speaker 1: which for me that wasn't true. I was like, I
Speaker 1: don't know what Pan. I had to get certainly misled
Speaker 1: some of us. Yeah, it's not Peter Pan, so what
Speaker 1: the hell? Um? Yeah, so what's the point? Unclear? But
Speaker 1: del Toro has said that even though this English translation
Speaker 1: of the title identifies the fawn as Pan, that the
Speaker 1: fon is not Pan in the movie, and has said quote,
Speaker 1: if he was Pan, the girl would be in deep ship. Um,
Speaker 1: and its very clearly stated that it is not. But
Speaker 1: nonetheless the fun is also closely. Faun is still deceptive
Speaker 1: and there's some sex stuff with Yeah, and then I
Speaker 1: but then I also found Aristotle. I would love your
Speaker 1: take on this if you look at the I mean,
Speaker 1: aside from the fact that the poster is not about
Speaker 1: Peter pan Um, every poster I was able to find
Speaker 1: for this movie is a gaping vagina and there's just
Speaker 1: no way around it. Like the marketing of this movie
Speaker 1: was a lot of pussy. But I was able to
Speaker 1: find a quote from del Toro that kind of pushes
Speaker 1: against that reading. I guess it just is. Really this
Speaker 1: is a case study in like I mean, he's saying
Speaker 1: it's not there, but I can't stop seeing it. Where
Speaker 1: he was asked in an interview with Filter mag the
Speaker 1: Russian was um. So often in fairytale analysis, there's a
Speaker 1: tendency to read any story of a young girl as
Speaker 1: a psycho sexual parable. But this film specifically doesn't go
Speaker 1: that way, Thoughts and del Toro says it doesn't at all.
Speaker 1: I consciously avoided it, not out of prudishness, but out
Speaker 1: of the same reason why I tried to avoid the
Speaker 1: myth of vampire vampireism in Chronos. Blah blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: Up about Chronos in Pan's Labyrinth, I knew the psycho
Speaker 1: sexual angle was really tired. It felt very nineteen eighties
Speaker 1: for me, and I felt this was a movie about
Speaker 1: a girl who was on the threshold of making a
Speaker 1: choice where she could cease to be a girl. But
Speaker 1: it was not about sexual identity, which I don't even
Speaker 1: think pushes back against how I feel that much, because
Speaker 1: it doesn't seem like a sexual identity thing as much
Speaker 1: as it is of like figuring out how you can
Speaker 1: survive as a woman in this world. I don't know, Yeah,
Speaker 1: because there's nothing inherently sexual in any of this. It's
Speaker 1: all very much about it does. But that's also wild
Speaker 1: hymn to say, because everything is a uterus in this movie.
Speaker 1: Like I have Bragg, I have the Criterion Blue ray
Speaker 1: that is literally a vagina Aristotle. Yes, I did not
Speaker 1: even see that until, like, until you brought it up. Now,
Speaker 1: I mean I recognize the like it's a beautiful artwork
Speaker 1: by Becky Clunan. I want. I wanted the poster so bad.
Speaker 1: Of course, it's sold out in seconds, but it's it's
Speaker 1: similar as the regular poster where it's kind of the tree,
Speaker 1: but it's also kind of the fawn's head. It all
Speaker 1: looks like a uterus, but that is she is coming
Speaker 1: out of a vagina, like the you know, the it's
Speaker 1: right there. It scrambles my brand. I don't think that
Speaker 1: there's anything wrong with this, but it is always weird
Speaker 1: to me when a male filmmaker is like, it's not
Speaker 1: that I'm like, but do you are you looking at
Speaker 1: it like I'm looking at it Like it's just I
Speaker 1: don't know. It is definitely an interpretation thing, but and
Speaker 1: it also is a set design thing. But because we
Speaker 1: know del Toro is so involved in the process, it's
Speaker 1: kind of not like, well, he just showed up and
Speaker 1: there were all these vaginas in the floor, like he
Speaker 1: I don't know. And I feel like this also kind
Speaker 1: of goes back to the essay that I mentioned initially
Speaker 1: that he's trying to influence your view of it with
Speaker 1: what his intention is, but that doesn't mean that that's
Speaker 1: still not there because he's still a man raised in
Speaker 1: a extremely patriarchal society, so that of course he has
Speaker 1: major blind spots that he just can't see. I think
Speaker 1: and we all kind of have that. We all have
Speaker 1: major blind spot you just cannot see because you don't
Speaker 1: know that they're there. That's why I really appreciated this
Speaker 1: critical essay of him because you know, it does kind
Speaker 1: of make me appreciate him more while also recognizing, you know,
Speaker 1: not perfect. I love I love the hell out of
Speaker 1: this movie. There's and there is a vagina on every post,
Speaker 1: and both of those things can be true. Well, I'm
Speaker 1: also disturbed at this trend of it being I mean,
Speaker 1: the suggestion that it is is it can there be
Speaker 1: a psycho sexual interpretation of this movie about a ten
Speaker 1: year old girl? Like why is that even entering the
Speaker 1: conversation for like the film critics and and like the
Speaker 1: filmmakers who are like, yeah, let me put all this
Speaker 1: vagina imagery into a movie about a ten year old,
Speaker 1: Like I don't I hate it? I agree, but I
Speaker 1: also feel like it's a valid question to ask because
Speaker 1: it does happen. It is the right It's yeah, it's
Speaker 1: not so much the questioning of it, but it's more like,
Speaker 1: why is this imagery that we that we would see
Speaker 1: in a movie about a ten year old girl who
Speaker 1: is like about to start to come of age kind
Speaker 1: of thing? You know, Like it just it feels weird.
Speaker 1: It's uncomfortact that it even has to enter the conversation.
Speaker 1: That's what I mean. I feel like I would appreciate
Speaker 1: it more if he was more directing. I was like, yes,
Speaker 1: it's about becoming a woman. She's never sexualized, we don't,
Speaker 1: you know, sex has never brought up, but you know,
Speaker 1: people grow up. It hasn't happened, right, Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: think I would appreciate that way more than like no, no,
Speaker 1: no, no no, that's not it. It seems like a little yeah,
Speaker 1: this answer it. I had to read it like a
Speaker 1: few different times because it was like, I feel like
Speaker 1: that is almost that conversation that's telling because it's conflating
Speaker 1: coming of age with sex, which is, you know, a
Speaker 1: part of coming of age is navigating your feelings around sex.
Speaker 1: But it's not the only thing that happens. Come of age,
Speaker 1: so much happens. But the idea that like you're reducing
Speaker 1: coming of age to like when losing your get your
Speaker 1: period or white like having sex for the first time,
Speaker 1: it's and it's also that's also like obviously a very
Speaker 1: like sis normative thing where it's like, well, you're you know,
Speaker 1: you're a woman as soon as you get your period,
Speaker 1: and it's like no. I went back to school the
Speaker 1: next day and I didn't know what kind of lingas
Speaker 1: was for five years. Still I would say that so
Speaker 1: little of my life had changed other than we I
Speaker 1: feel like we've talked about this. I just was like,
Speaker 1: I think I shipped myself, and my mom's like you didn't,
Speaker 1: and I was like, all right, moving on, Yeah, I guess.
Speaker 1: I mean, if there is going to be so much
Speaker 1: vagina and uterus imagery, and I would rather there be
Speaker 1: injury vaginal blood, like for a movie that doesn't really
Speaker 1: deal in sex very much, I feel like it's disingenuous
Speaker 1: to imply, like I mean on his end of like
Speaker 1: it doesn't have a lot to do with sex, but
Speaker 1: it does have a lot to do with like women's
Speaker 1: bodies or like sis women in a in a way
Speaker 1: that isn't exploitative, but it is very present. I don't know,
Speaker 1: it's confusing to talk about. And where I come down
Speaker 1: on the whole thing is like, if you're gonna throw
Speaker 1: a bunch of all this imagery into your movie, then
Speaker 1: make the protagonist an adult woman and not a ten
Speaker 1: year old girl, I guess. And then also like, what
Speaker 1: does assist man know about a maturing female body? And
Speaker 1: why is there that obsession with it? Called bo burn
Speaker 1: him off? Let's get Bo Burnham on the horn. Um,
Speaker 1: And as much as I love eighth grade and as
Speaker 1: much as I love pianez La Brentha, it is it
Speaker 1: really did makes you question, like why this is such
Speaker 1: a prevalent Well, we're really like why it is such
Speaker 1: a prevalent storytell like why is it such a pervasive
Speaker 1: cultural story for a man to write a story about
Speaker 1: a little girl falling into a vagina and learning something?
Speaker 1: And why why is it always assist man telling that story?
Speaker 1: I just I mean again, I love this movie to death,
Speaker 1: but it's it's like worth bringing up and I feel
Speaker 1: like we had not as in death, but like a
Speaker 1: similar ish conversation in Coraline of like why is Neil
Speaker 1: Gaiman just like tossing this little girl into a vagina
Speaker 1: to learn a lesson? Why is it? What? It just?
Speaker 1: It just happens a lot. So the moral of the
Speaker 1: story is I would appreciate more coming of age stories
Speaker 1: for little girls and more heroes journey narratives about girls
Speaker 1: and women that are actually written and made by women.
Speaker 1: But that said, this movie fucking rock. I wouldn't change
Speaker 1: a thing. And it's it's complicated, Okay, this movie is
Speaker 1: the greatest and it's also weird, but that's like, that's
Speaker 1: the beauty there. It is King of the weirdos. True, Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's man. I also realized like halfway through that we
Speaker 1: we acknowledged the shirt that I'm wearing, But did it
Speaker 1: specifically say that it's a shirt that you got me
Speaker 1: that says directed by Gamma de Toro. Yes, send us
Speaker 1: a picture of yourself wearing it, if you would, Aristotle,
Speaker 1: and then we'll post it on our Instagram. We'll do,
Speaker 1: We'll do. You have a favorite del Toro movie at
Speaker 1: present slash has it ever changed? I do, and it
Speaker 1: was gonna be something. I don't know if we're wrapping now,
Speaker 1: because I was going to recommend um Hans Labyrinth objectively
Speaker 1: good film, Oscar winning, beautiful, gorgeous movie. The Devil's Backbone
Speaker 1: is his other I believe he has three movies in
Speaker 1: Spanish objectively his best movies. The other ones are great
Speaker 1: and fun, but those are like truly the best, most meaningful,
Speaker 1: I guess, except for Coronasconos is good, but it's a
Speaker 1: little more cool than meaningful. But Devil's Backbone my favorite movie.
Speaker 1: I have a tattoo right here on my arm of
Speaker 1: once again then, but the Criterion collection cover, and that's
Speaker 1: kind of the other side of Little Boys in a
Speaker 1: Boy's Home during the Spanish War hands his post. This
Speaker 1: is during and I read the Delta says that pans
Speaker 1: Obyrinth is the sort of like spiritual or thematic sequel
Speaker 1: to The Devil Backbone, even though they're not necessarily like
Speaker 1: narratively sequels. They're like kind of spiritually companion films in
Speaker 1: the sense that they both take place during the Spanish War.
Speaker 1: But there's also I like to think that he has
Speaker 1: created a universe that he hasn't touched since of you know,
Speaker 1: a very dark, sad, grim world with a lighter side
Speaker 1: of the things that we consider dark, Like you know,
Speaker 1: the beautiful note always a Pan's Labyrinth is like, there's
Speaker 1: all these scary things happening in the fantasy world, but
Speaker 1: none of them are as dark or as horrifying. Is
Speaker 1: what's happening in our world that actually happened, Like, none
Speaker 1: of it is as evil as that. And it's kind
Speaker 1: of the same thing with Devil's Backbone, where it's a
Speaker 1: ghost story, but the ghost isn't the problem. It's the
Speaker 1: men in the movie. Yeah, and it's a much smaller,
Speaker 1: more intimate movie. I feel like that doesn't make sense.
Speaker 1: But when you if you see it, you get it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I gotta watch it that Unfortunately, I don't think it's
Speaker 1: streaming anywhere. It's almost never anywhere. That's why I had
Speaker 1: to buy the Blue Ring. But it's worth it. And
Speaker 1: then Pacific Rim which we've done before too, and that's
Speaker 1: more of like a big dumb fun movie. We're gonna
Speaker 1: do it. We're going to get to shave the water
Speaker 1: at some point because again, talking about the Dug Jones Fish,
Speaker 1: we didn't even talk about Doug Jones King. Doug Jones.
Speaker 1: He learned Spanish for this movie. They didn't use his
Speaker 1: voice learned how to learn. They didn't. They didn't use
Speaker 1: his voice, but they did. He did learn Spanish for it,
Speaker 1: but it wasn't good enough, so they dubbed it over
Speaker 1: with the Spanish speaking actor's voice dog, but Doug Jones rocks.
Speaker 1: I found out that he And it's too bad because
Speaker 1: this is a cultural image that has been taken by
Speaker 1: the alt right, which I didn't learn until I was like,
Speaker 1: this is fun and then everyone was like not anymore. Um,
Speaker 1: but do you remember that McDonald's mascot from the eighties
Speaker 1: that was called mac Tonight and it's just a mascot
Speaker 1: with a huge crescent moon for a head. Yes, that's
Speaker 1: Doug Jones. Wait for McDonald's or because I'm thinking of
Speaker 1: U J. J. Leno right or Conan one of them
Speaker 1: also had a moon headed mascot. Maybe they were copying it,
Speaker 1: or maybe the other way around. But yeah, mac Tonight
Speaker 1: was I don't know before my time, but he was
Speaker 1: a guy with a big crescent moon and it was
Speaker 1: about getting food and McDonald at night. I see it's
Speaker 1: all right now they all right. I don't even want
Speaker 1: to know what they've done with mac Tonight, but apparently
Speaker 1: they took him. He's gone. But he's Doug Jones back
Speaker 1: in the day. That was an early Doug Jones gig
Speaker 1: guy with a big he loves a big prosthetics. Sure
Speaker 1: do well, even with the huge as moon head. He's like,
Speaker 1: I'll do it, Jamie. Would you agree? Alfred Molina should
Speaker 1: have been in this movie? Yeah, he is part Spanish,
Speaker 1: he should he as an actor Spanish descent. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean he is bilingual, like I feel. But then I
Speaker 1: do feel like if he was in this movie. He
Speaker 1: would have been playing someone really terrible, and I'm almost
Speaker 1: glad he's not in it because I don't want to
Speaker 1: see him be a bad guy. I think he would
Speaker 1: have made a great doctor call. Yeah, he would. He
Speaker 1: would have fit. He would have fit in this world too.
Speaker 1: I don't even know what I'm saying when I'm saying
Speaker 1: that he fits in like a fantasy movie, and he
Speaker 1: fits in a period piece like in many ways, Pan's
Speaker 1: Labyrinth is a period piece. Yes, indeed, thanks for the
Speaker 1: excuse to go to Alfred Billina's Wikipedia today. What was
Speaker 1: he doing this year? Well, maybe he was. Maybe he
Speaker 1: was offered to roll and turned it down instead, he
Speaker 1: might have been doing something like the Da Vinci Code.
Speaker 1: I hope that's not true. That would be such a
Speaker 1: bummer if he was like, can't no, can do Guiarmo,
Speaker 1: I got a sweet in the Da Vinci Code. I
Speaker 1: don't know. This movie is so goddamn good. It's also
Speaker 1: where it's not even worth noting. You just want to
Speaker 1: throw it out there that Enrico Lupi, who plays the
Speaker 1: king Father character, is also in the Devil's Backbone and
Speaker 1: in Chronos. He's another of your most frequenters until he
Speaker 1: passed well. And also, um, the woman who plays Mercedes
Speaker 1: is I recognized her from Et Mama Tempion. Yes, yes
Speaker 1: she is. She think is the only other movie I've
Speaker 1: seen her in the way. Let me make more great connections.
Speaker 1: Garmo A Fonso Krone in Youoritu three best friends. Alfonso
Speaker 1: helped produce this movie. Yeah, I didn't realize that until
Speaker 1: researching for them. You know, he was involved in it,
Speaker 1: and that there was also I read on the scholarly
Speaker 1: journal Wikipedia dot org that there was like some disagreement
Speaker 1: about whether or that Inatu said that he viewed Pants
Speaker 1: Labyrinth as a truly Catholic film, and then del Toro
Speaker 1: was like no, which seems like it's kind of his thing.
Speaker 1: He's like that read is is No is a no
Speaker 1: for me, which is so hard to like. I don't
Speaker 1: understand how he can say that when he's so obsessed
Speaker 1: with Catholic imagery, Like that's just so his jam and
Speaker 1: he was raised Catholic and he kind of hates it,
Speaker 1: I guess, but you can't ignore that it's there. Well,
Speaker 1: that's what I kind of yeah sometimes I mean, And
Speaker 1: also I have if I'm like I am I'm like,
Speaker 1: I guess if I were, if I were making something
Speaker 1: on such a large scale, I bet I would have
Speaker 1: some control issues with it as well. Of like, no,
Speaker 1: that wasn't what I was saying. I was saying this,
Speaker 1: but but even so, it's like when you're able to
Speaker 1: make something on such a big scale, it's like it's
Speaker 1: cool that people can see different stuff in it and
Speaker 1: like see parts of them. I don't know, And also
Speaker 1: just like it's to be definitively like it's not about Catholic,
Speaker 1: Like I guess, I don't this like implies that you
Speaker 1: have more control over your what you're putting out subconsciously
Speaker 1: than you actually do. I don't know. Wow, art is
Speaker 1: complicated art. Does anyone have any final thoughts about the film?
Speaker 1: He needs to make more Spanish speaking movies, hasn't done
Speaker 1: so in a long time. Yeah, what was the last one?
Speaker 1: It was Pants? And then he went to do more
Speaker 1: Hell Boys and then specific ram Aple Water Crimson Peak.
Speaker 1: I always forget that was him. And then didn't he
Speaker 1: burn a couple of years doing like almost doing Hobbit
Speaker 1: and then not doing Hobbit. Yes, well, this movie does
Speaker 1: pass the b actual test between Ophelia and her mother Carmen.
Speaker 1: Between Ophelia and Mercedes um as far as our nipple
Speaker 1: scale zero to five nipples based on an examination through
Speaker 1: an intersectional feminist lens, This one it's tricky for me
Speaker 1: because on one hand, you have this, like again a
Speaker 1: hero's journey narrative that is led by a woman, three women, really,
Speaker 1: I mean especially, and then two women or two female
Speaker 1: characters emerges like the most heroic characters of the film,
Speaker 1: between Ophelia and Mercedes. And then I like that it's
Speaker 1: a fairy tale narrative that is about a female character,
Speaker 1: but it is not like a princess having to get
Speaker 1: rescued and falling in love with a prince, because like
Speaker 1: I think, Disney, uh, and you know, other entities have
Speaker 1: kind of conditioned us to think, oh, fairy tale, that's
Speaker 1: probably about a princess falling in love with a prince.
Speaker 1: So but I still like that you have like all that,
Speaker 1: like you have like an evil step father this time
Speaker 1: in versions all that good ship. A lot of the
Speaker 1: components are there, a lot of the conventions are there,
Speaker 1: but it it subverts a lot of that stuff, you know,
Speaker 1: by being critical of fascism and you know, so you know,
Speaker 1: it's just the characters. I mean between again Ophelia and
Speaker 1: Mercedes especially, it's two female characters with a ton of
Speaker 1: agency who are driving the narrative. But then you have
Speaker 1: the whole and again, I don't know if it's just
Speaker 1: how my brain works, where I am not good at
Speaker 1: picking up on symbolism and I'm not good at picking
Speaker 1: up on visual metaphors, like I just didn't even occur
Speaker 1: to me all of the like and I know it's
Speaker 1: right there, but just like all of the vagina and
Speaker 1: the blood and like what that might mean? And what
Speaker 1: is the obsession with so many like male auteurs telling
Speaker 1: stories about girls going into what could be interpreted as
Speaker 1: a vagina whole and it's and then having an adventure
Speaker 1: there um, and like what are the implications of all
Speaker 1: of that? I don't know how to make sense with that.
Speaker 1: I'm like reminded of my days in film school brag
Speaker 1: where I would take like film studies class that had
Speaker 1: these like interpretations that I'm just like, what are you
Speaker 1: talking about? That's not there. I don't see that at all.
Speaker 1: And then I'm like, well, maybe it is there. I
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know again, I just don't know
Speaker 1: how to read things that are not extremely explicit. I
Speaker 1: guess so, and if you're roasting yourself, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I was like finished, but still has in yourself all
Speaker 1: everything that I it seems like I understood came from
Speaker 1: reading Garamoa's words. Yeah, and then also realizing he just
Speaker 1: has a certain language where some of those things are
Speaker 1: kind of repeated throughout all of his movies. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess like knowing you're knowing his entire catalog, definitely,
Speaker 1: he sure. Yeah, he loves asa metrical circle things. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the Moana spiral it's there for um, which is also
Speaker 1: probably like symbolism that it refers to something that I
Speaker 1: don't know about. Yeah, that one, I'm like not smart enough,
Speaker 1: don't know. So with all of that in mind, I
Speaker 1: don't know what to rate this. I really love this
Speaker 1: movie on a like just purely like I love watching
Speaker 1: this movie. I'd give it a million nipples on our
Speaker 1: nipple scale. I don't know. I guess it would be
Speaker 1: like a three point seven five or a four. It's
Speaker 1: still rates really highly based on the characters and what
Speaker 1: they do and the various kind of thematic things I
Speaker 1: don't know what is everyone else gonna do. I'm gonna Klein,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna, I'm gonna I'm gonna do three three point
Speaker 1: seven five. I think between that, yeah, because I mean,
Speaker 1: there is so much being done here in the fantasy
Speaker 1: genre that you don't get to see very much. You
Speaker 1: get also like, I feel like we we hit on
Speaker 1: it here and there, but like the commentary being made
Speaker 1: on class here, even though I didn't realize what aristole
Speaker 1: you brought up. It's kind of at the expense of
Speaker 1: historical accuracy. But I really like the commentary being made
Speaker 1: on class here and the trauma that can come with
Speaker 1: trying to get out of the class that you were
Speaker 1: born in um in order to survive, and the sacrifices
Speaker 1: that come with that. Like, I feel like del Toro
Speaker 1: is really good at having those conversations a lot of
Speaker 1: the time and has a way of I mean, just
Speaker 1: based on the stuff of his I've seen, it seems
Speaker 1: to be like a champion of the working person. I'm
Speaker 1: very critical of the upper class, which, uh, a lot
Speaker 1: of movies aren't. Where it's like, this is a movie
Speaker 1: about a princess, and it is about how the marquis,
Speaker 1: who are these people that they're in charge of? We
Speaker 1: don't care. So, in addition to three female protagonists that
Speaker 1: all are very different and have very different faiths, it
Speaker 1: makes me sad that the female hero's journey results in
Speaker 1: most likely her death. But it makes sense in the story,
Speaker 1: and I feel like that ties into other commentary that
Speaker 1: he's making. So it worked for me. It makes sense. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I did the vagina metaphor. I mean, is I think
Speaker 1: I got more. It doesn't really bother me. It bothered
Speaker 1: me more when I found out that He's like, no,
Speaker 1: it isn't. I'm like, come on the So maybe that
Speaker 1: was me just being a little like but it but
Speaker 1: but she walking into a vaginta guarmo and that's okay,
Speaker 1: but just like, don't be like it comes off a
Speaker 1: little fawn like no, no, no, don't question it, right,
Speaker 1: So so that I mean it also is like kind
Speaker 1: of any and he's interestingly he like is very clearly
Speaker 1: inspired by another narrative that uses this exact convention of
Speaker 1: tossing a girl in a hole to learn a lesson.
Speaker 1: He is openly admitted to that, but maybe doesn't I
Speaker 1: don't know. I thought that that was interesting. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: go three point seven five because that's just what I'm
Speaker 1: doing today. I love this movie so much. It will
Speaker 1: always be my first Del Toro, my favor Del Toro,
Speaker 1: and Doug Jones forever. That is what I had to
Speaker 1: say at three point seven five. And I'll give one
Speaker 1: to each of the main three characters, and I'll give
Speaker 1: my last point seven five to the ferry that gets
Speaker 1: their head bitten off. I was also thinking three and
Speaker 1: a half, but I do. I end of want to
Speaker 1: give it four because I think under a critical lens
Speaker 1: there's lots of faults and lots of things that could
Speaker 1: be improved upon or made clearer. But I think overall
Speaker 1: net good. It's a movie about two women, more than
Speaker 1: all three, but two women being rebellious in the face
Speaker 1: of extreme oppression, and I think that is it. You know,
Speaker 1: it's not a children's movie, but it can at least
Speaker 1: be hopeful in a good lesson taught. So net good
Speaker 1: for sure. Not good. Yeah, I would say four, though
Speaker 1: that also feels at a little bit much, right, That's okay.
Speaker 1: I think I'll settle on a three point seven five
Speaker 1: because I think there's still room to maybe give Mercedes
Speaker 1: a little bit more characterization. I think there's room to
Speaker 1: have given the mother a little bit more characterization and
Speaker 1: more fully explain kind of like why she made some
Speaker 1: of the choices she's made. And yeah, it's it just
Speaker 1: could have gone a little bit further, I think with
Speaker 1: some of the characterization. So I'll land on at three
Speaker 1: point seven five and all my all, my nipples. How
Speaker 1: many nipples does it? Dug drones fawn have? They must
Speaker 1: have four? Well, if a fawn is a part goat, right, goats,
Speaker 1: I believe you know, off the top of your head,
Speaker 1: I think they're they have like a four utter situation,
Speaker 1: much like a cow. So that's my guess. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I really hate that this has become a part of
Speaker 1: my personality that I just know how nipples don't I
Speaker 1: want to really and you know what this ends today?
Speaker 1: This thing never never talked to me about. Yeah, no
Speaker 1: more cat facts. I'm moving on to something else what
Speaker 1: I don't know. But anyways to the toad. Oh yes,
Speaker 1: feminist icon, queer icon, the toad. The toad. Watching the
Speaker 1: toad deflate never doesn't make me laugh. When the when
Speaker 1: the toad is just like I'm a balloon. I'll give
Speaker 1: my three point seven five nipples, you know what, I'll
Speaker 1: give him to the pale all of them to the
Speaker 1: pale man. Yeah, we never what was the pale man's
Speaker 1: real story? He has murals of him torturing children hanging
Speaker 1: up in his little cave, but like, who painted them?
Speaker 1: Did he commission someone? Yeah? Yeah, he's got a whole
Speaker 1: sh morgus board of food that he that you're not
Speaker 1: allowed to eat? What is that? Is that class commentary
Speaker 1: that only the rich are allowed to eat the luxurious food?
Speaker 1: Also shout out to the production designer of this movie
Speaker 1: for for so many reasons, right, but mostly because I'm like,
Speaker 1: those grapes did look good, so tasty. Usually when someone
Speaker 1: like eats the forbidden freedom like that doesn't even like,
Speaker 1: like you must be so hungry, but the grapes are like,
Speaker 1: those grapes are gigantic. Though, I have to get back
Speaker 1: into it. But that also was a little bit of
Speaker 1: a question for me, was we know that she's rebellious,
Speaker 1: so that's our understanding of why she does it purely
Speaker 1: out of rebellion. Because she is so rebellious, she disobeys
Speaker 1: what the font tells her. It's the grapes, but there's
Speaker 1: also no reason, like she has proven to be a
Speaker 1: very strong character, and you know, never do we learn
Speaker 1: that she likes sweets or fruits or anything. We never
Speaker 1: there's no like you missed your meal. There was no
Speaker 1: real reason for her to have any strong feeling towards
Speaker 1: those grapes, Like she could have easily gone out of there,
Speaker 1: but for some reason we get the temptation and she
Speaker 1: fails too. Because it's like the other comparable like story thing.
Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, it's like when Aladdin takes the lamp,
Speaker 1: but you also know why he wants to take the lamp,
Speaker 1: and that's kind of like set into his character when
Speaker 1: you know him, of like, while he survives by taking,
Speaker 1: like he has to, he has to deal to survive.
Speaker 1: This is built into his character where, yeah, it's not
Speaker 1: totally clear why she eats the grape other than the
Speaker 1: big old grape because it just looks so tatous. Well,
Speaker 1: there is that scene where like she's sent to bed
Speaker 1: without dinner, but that happens several days before this, so
Speaker 1: it's not as though she's like hungry, and I don't
Speaker 1: think she's still hungry from that. I don't know if
Speaker 1: that's a really good point. Yeah, I'm not sure. Well,
Speaker 1: Giarmo answered that question. What are we supposed to say
Speaker 1: about that? Sir? We won't ask you about Vagina's ever again,
Speaker 1: we promise. Well, Aristotle has been such a delight to
Speaker 1: have you here. Thanks for coming on the Castle. It's
Speaker 1: just nice to have you back. I know, we lower
Speaker 1: the embargo on men and then you come on for
Speaker 1: an episode, and then we raised the gate back. I
Speaker 1: appreciate it. Yes, of course, where can people follow you
Speaker 1: online and check out anything? You'd like to plug? Aris?
Speaker 1: Tacos on everything except for TikTok, you know, because who
Speaker 1: knows why Why make the account if it's not going
Speaker 1: to be there? Yeah, all these tacos and everything. But
Speaker 1: I also want to shout out D s A and
Speaker 1: water Drop and street Watch and all those organizations and
Speaker 1: being involved with those and finding your local version of
Speaker 1: that because they're happening everywhere, and though not always perfect organizations,
Speaker 1: they are doing net good. Yes, and the work that
Speaker 1: you know other people should be doing and blatantly aren't.
Speaker 1: So mutual aid is the way, the light, the direction.
Speaker 1: Can I also just say Aristotle that you posted some
Speaker 1: videos I think in July about like how to reduce
Speaker 1: your single use plastic waste, and I like really took
Speaker 1: it to her and I'm like taking a lot of
Speaker 1: measures to very drastically reduce the single use plastic in
Speaker 1: my life. Awesome, thanks for that. Yes, I've got a
Speaker 1: lot of good response from those videos, but I just
Speaker 1: hated doing it. I don't. I was like, I hate
Speaker 1: having this camera on me and just talking into it,
Speaker 1: so I'm just gonna stop. Well, it worked work. You
Speaker 1: are legally obligated to start a YouTube channel. M Well,
Speaker 1: speaking of YouTube, we do have a channel, but we
Speaker 1: don't post anything of it but instead and don't expect
Speaker 1: that to start. Sorry, but you can follow us on
Speaker 1: Twitter and Instagram at Bechtel Cast. You can subscribe to
Speaker 1: our patreon ak Matreon. It's five dollars a month. It
Speaker 1: gets you access to two bonus episodes every single month,
Speaker 1: plus the entire back catalog of bonus episodes, and that's
Speaker 1: at patreon dot com. Slash Bectel asked with that, shall
Speaker 1: we shall we go back down to a pretty I'm
Speaker 1: pretty hungry If you guys wanna see if we swipe
Speaker 1: something from the pie Man. Yes, let's do it all right,
Speaker 1: by by bye,