1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:07,880 Speaker 1: womenium are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or 3 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef invest start changing 4 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:21,119 Speaker 1: it with the bel cast. Welcome to the Vectel Cast. 5 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: My name is Jamie Loftus. My name is Caitlin Darante. Jamie, 6 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:29,159 Speaker 1: do you want to come down into my labyrinth with me? No, 7 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: sounds scary. Don't like that initiation. Um, well, wait, I 8 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:41,199 Speaker 1: actually have a question. This is a movie, right, So 9 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:45,160 Speaker 1: if there's elaborate, that's probably a really drawn out metaphor 10 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 1: for a womb, is it not. Perhaps there's a vagina 11 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: in the floor and we've got to climb in. This 12 00:00:54,200 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: happens in I would say of movies, Well remember the 13 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:04,760 Speaker 1: floor of vagina from Mother exclamation point right, the floor 14 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:07,039 Speaker 1: of vagina. I haven't thought about that, And forever it 15 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: happens so much male outurs they're at it again. At 16 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: least this is this is a great movie. But I 17 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 1: was like, there it is. I forgot the last time 18 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:20,279 Speaker 1: I watched Pan's Laborriate, I didn't. I didn't know about 19 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 1: the cultural sensation that is floor vagina or a vagina. 20 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: Head vaginas come in many forms. We have two floor 21 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:37,759 Speaker 1: vaginas this month alone. I mean the descent cave vagina. Shocking. Wow. Um, 22 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 1: anyway here we are, yes? Sure? I Well, are there 23 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 1: two Doug Jones in your floor vagina? I guess I'll 24 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: come in as long as he's there. As long as 25 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: he's there, I feel safe. So this is the Bechtel Cast. Welcome. 26 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: We are a movie podcasts in which we analyze popular films, 27 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: usually sometimes unpopular, I don't know. In any case, we 28 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 1: analyze influential, for better or worse, influential films through an 29 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 1: intersectional seminist lens, and we use the Bechtel test simply 30 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: as a way to inspire a larger conversation about representation, inclusivity, 31 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: intersectionality and what Jamie, what is it? What's the Betel test? Well? 32 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:31,919 Speaker 1: It is a media metric invented by Alice and Bachtel, 33 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: sometimes called the Bactel Wallace test, that requires for our purposes. 34 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: There's different variants of the test, but for our test, 35 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 1: it requires that there are two people of a marginalized 36 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 1: gender with names talking to each other about something other 37 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:51,359 Speaker 1: than a man for two lines of dialogue that's all 38 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 1: it takes. Shouldn't be that awfully hard. You can talk 39 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: about Floria Vagina, you cannot talk about Doug Jones. Sometimes 40 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 1: it's hard, but but we we will get. I mean, 41 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:09,679 Speaker 1: it's you know, this movie passes there, the podcast is over. 42 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 1: You can stop listening. There's nothing left to discuss. Um. 43 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: But that is that is the Bechtel test. But we 44 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: use it as a jumping off point for a larger discussion. Indeed, 45 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: and I'm so excited about our discussion today. I'm so 46 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: excited about our guest today. You already know him, you 47 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: already love him, because he's our producer. He's our dear friend. 48 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: You remember him from the Pacific rim episode. He's the sweetest, 49 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 1: simply the best. He's an uncle now he's and he's 50 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: Del Toro's number one fan. Is the credit that he wanted. 51 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: It's a credit currently being sported on his very shirt, 52 00:03:56,520 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: courtesy of a gift that I bravely gave him. Brave 53 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: it's Aristotle Alsaveado. Hello, happy to be back. We're so 54 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: happy to have you. We've missed you so much. It 55 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: has been far too long. I know, well because someone 56 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: was just asking about you, and because of how you 57 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: record in the Quarantine where it's just a very bare 58 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 1: bones operation with me and Jamie. Um, but we still 59 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:29,720 Speaker 1: need you, Aristotle, and that's why you're here and we've been, 60 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 1: we've been. I mean, this works out on so many 61 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 1: levels because you are number one Del Toro head and 62 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: people have been requesting Pan's Labyrinth for so long. I 63 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 1: imagine it's pretty high up there. What's your history with 64 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 1: this movie? And I guess with the Del Toro fandom 65 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,359 Speaker 1: at large. I remember this the other day and it 66 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: may date me a bit, but I still remember seeing 67 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 1: the poster for the first time right here at the 68 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:01,159 Speaker 1: Alhambra Renaissance when I was just a kid, uh, and 69 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: seeing it and thinking like, what the fuck movie called 70 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 1: Pan's Labyrinth and You're not gonna have Peter Pan in it? 71 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: That's so dumb, Like I was so mad that they 72 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 1: took Peter Pan's name? Did he? But you know, I 73 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: was a foolish child that knew nothing. And then I 74 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:18,359 Speaker 1: don't remember the first time I saw it, but I 75 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: remember really being blown away and immediately remembering that moment, 76 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: thinking Wow, what that was? What a stupid thing? Oh 77 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 1: that's the best, Jamie, what about you, what's your history 78 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 1: with it? Um? I remember seeing this movie for the 79 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 1: first time after school at my aunt's house because she 80 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:43,679 Speaker 1: had like movie channels and we did not have movie channels. 81 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 1: This is at my now Trump supporting aunt's house. We've 82 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:52,160 Speaker 1: simply fallen out of touch, but I did. There was 83 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 1: a point in time where she had the channel Showtime, 84 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:58,279 Speaker 1: and I wanted to watch a cool movie. So I 85 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 1: watched it and I love did I definitely. I don't know. 86 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: I was probably in like middle schoolish it. It was 87 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: like shortly after this movie came out. I didn't know 88 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: who del Toro was at this time, but it was 89 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:16,919 Speaker 1: my first Del Toro movie, and so I held it 90 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 1: very close to my heart and it holds up. It's 91 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:22,479 Speaker 1: so good it does. Yeah, what about you. I was 92 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:24,159 Speaker 1: in college when it came out, and I think I 93 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 1: saw it somewhere around that time, maybe like a year 94 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:30,600 Speaker 1: or two after six. When it came out, I was oh, 95 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 1: sex okay, yeah, right, yeah, yes, and I was like, 96 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: oh my god, this movie is so good. And I 97 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: wish I had spent my life watching it more frequently, 98 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: because I think I've only seen it. I think I 99 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: watched it once every like four years or so, so 100 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:50,280 Speaker 1: I've seen it like three or four times in the past, 101 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:52,479 Speaker 1: but every time I watched it, I'm like, oh my, 102 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 1: this is incredible. I love this movie. It's so the 103 00:06:56,800 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: story is so well crafted, it's beautiful, and I'm tronics 104 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 1: of it, all the dug Jones of it all that 105 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 1: I this is the first time I've seen this movie 106 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: since like American fascism really ramped up. So yeah, same 107 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: whole new vibe going on with this with this viewing. 108 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 1: Oh how nothing has changed? Yeah truly, but like, yeah, 109 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 1: this is basically you know, Franco's Spain all over again. 110 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 1: This was also I think the just to expose, uh, 111 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 1: some of the huge gaps in the American public education 112 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: system slash education system at large. Um. I think that 113 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: this movie was the first any in depth look I 114 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 1: had at Franco with Spain at all. Like I think 115 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: I had it referenced in school, but it certainly was 116 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: never something that I learned extensively about, like Pan's Labyrinthe 117 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: was truly what I was like, Oh, I should find 118 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: out what is supposed to be happening in this movie, 119 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: because I just it was very glossed over at school. 120 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: For me anyways, I didn't even it didn't even get 121 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 1: covered in any history class I ever took or anything 122 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: like that has the only reason I honestly know that 123 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 1: it happened. I know who Franco is. But even for 124 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: this I tried to do a little bit of research, 125 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: and it is so complicated I can't even pretend to 126 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: understand what I for a context corner, I was like, 127 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 1: all right, we got to do a breakdown of Franco 128 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 1: of Spain. And then I was just like, I don't 129 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: think I'm equipped to do this. Just read the Wikipedia page. 130 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 1: Everyone like it is. It is incredibly dense um and 131 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: I think I think it's also just like incredible writing 132 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 1: on del Toro's part, that it's like he's able to 133 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 1: present everything in a very historically accurate way, in a 134 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 1: way that isn't like completely overwhelming or like if you 135 00:08:56,679 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 1: don't fully understand the context, it doesn't extreme lee hinder 136 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: your viewing of the movie, but if you do know 137 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 1: the context, it enriches it. It's I'm always really impressed 138 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:10,079 Speaker 1: when people can right like that. It's a miracle. It's incredible. Yes, 139 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 1: But also in doing some of the research I did 140 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: a little research I read, you know, I have some 141 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 1: books on del Toro specifically, one of them kind of 142 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 1: referenced kind of his inaccuracy in the Spanish Civil War 143 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:31,079 Speaker 1: and that there's still a lot of sugarcoating that happens, 144 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 1: that Spain itself is still kind of reconciling with that 145 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: the resistance was actually somewhat puppeted by Communist Russia at 146 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 1: the time and kind of use them and deceive them 147 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: to even ensure Franco's victory, and like it's a whole 148 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 1: very weird and that you know, the Francoist regime was 149 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: as brutal as depicted in the movie, but that the 150 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 1: resistance was also sometimes equally as brutal, Like they were 151 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: also indiscriminate, le just murdering priests, anyone related to the 152 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: church before and it was kind of like a back 153 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: and forth of those kinds of things. I was like, ahh, 154 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 1: holy ship. I really was hoping for a good versus 155 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 1: evil and I think it still was because Franco was evil, 156 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: but evil er, yeah, right, the greater of two evils. Wow, 157 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 1: I didn't realize that man history is bleak and that too, 158 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: was like, oh, this is so much like I truly 159 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: can't even pretend to like, that's just kind of scratch 160 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 1: of what I read. So if I'm totally wrong, I'm sorry. 161 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 1: That's fascinating. Well shod Should we talk about the movie? 162 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 1: I guess so? Oh right. Um, so the recap goes 163 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:50,200 Speaker 1: as follows. I left some stuff out just because it's 164 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: such a rich story with a lot of moving parts, 165 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 1: So my recap isn't necessarily going to do this a 166 00:10:57,320 --> 00:10:59,839 Speaker 1: huge amount of justice. I just recommend that everyone watched 167 00:10:59,880 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 1: the movie because it's so terrific. It's streaming on Netflix 168 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,559 Speaker 1: as we speak, or at least I hope it still 169 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 1: is at the time of this release. But um, yeah, 170 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: just watch the movie because my my recap kind of 171 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: skims over some stuff. But in any case, we get 172 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 1: some text on the screen at the very beginning to 173 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 1: provide some historical context. It is Spain in ninety four. 174 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 1: It's a few years after the Spanish Civil War, and 175 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 1: we learned that a group of like guerrilla rebel soldiers 176 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: are hiding in the mountains fighting against the fascist regime. 177 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: Then we get a little bit of a fairy tale 178 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 1: introduction where once upon a time there was a princess 179 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 1: who lived in the underworld, but she escaped to the 180 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: human world kind of forgot her identity eventually died there. 181 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: She became mortal and died there, but her father, the 182 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 1: King of the underworld, knew her soul would one day 183 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 1: return hern So that's the kind of fairy tale backstory 184 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: we need to know. Princess Mohanna Moana interesting. Yeah, I'm like, okay, 185 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: all my favorite princesses are named Mohanna. So then we're 186 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 1: back in Spain. We meet Ophelia. She's ten years old. 187 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 1: She loves fairy tales, and she is traveling with her mother, 188 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 1: who is undoubtedly gregnant. She is gregnant with a confirmed 189 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: Greg with a confirmed Greg who is a greg that's 190 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: giving her problems, a problematic Greg. She's late in her 191 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 1: problematic Gregnancy pregnancy, yes, and the third trimester of the Gregnancy. 192 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:53,680 Speaker 1: So anyway, um Ophelia and her mother are traveling to 193 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 1: the countryside. Along the way, Ophelia sees this large insect 194 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 1: that she thinks might be a fairy and she also 195 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 1: sees an entrance to this old labyrinth made of stone 196 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: near the house where she and her mother will be 197 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:14,679 Speaker 1: living in. And this is also where Olivia's new stepfather, 198 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 1: Captain Vidal, has set up this base camp because he 199 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: is in the military of the aforementioned fascist government searching 200 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 1: for the aforementioned rebels who were hiding in the nearby mountains. 201 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 1: And the captain, I feel like, embodies again in like 202 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: a good way. But but because I feel like this 203 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 1: movie has he's like patriarchy the character. Yeah, he's like 204 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 1: an embodiment of toxic masculinity and fascist ideology. Everything that's wrong, 205 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: that's him, that's that's his character. Yes, but also we're 206 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 1: seeing it through her, like a child died, So it 207 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 1: makes like, I mean, he's he's just he's a villain. 208 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: He's simply a villain, one of the best movie villains, 209 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: I think, and I think if this movie were less 210 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: well written, he could easily come off as like one 211 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: of these very cartoony villains. And he is. He's extremely evil. 212 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: He's horrible. Works for the story, though, I mean, it 213 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: definitely works. It works for the story, especially because it 214 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 1: is like this is a fair dark, grim fairy tale, 215 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: and he's very he's like borderline cartoonishly evil. But then 216 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 1: you're like, remember, like, well, there were like fascist assholes 217 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 1: who were not unlike this guy in real life, and 218 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: also worth worth the note that Hispanic culture in general 219 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: is very patriarchy, male dominant, like man is the man 220 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: ruler over every like the language in itself is also 221 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 1: completely binary and male is the dominant to the point 222 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: where he I mean, I don't know, he does so 223 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: many cartoonishly evilings, but when he goes to his dying 224 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: wife's side and it's like, if it comes down to it, 225 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: save Greg and then he just like leaves, You're like, 226 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: jeezs man, damn the room at Yeah, she's right there. 227 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: She can hear you right there, sir. He's so, he's 228 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: he's completely awful, and uh so this is kind of 229 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: who Ophelia is up against. Um. We also meet Mercedes, 230 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 1: she is a housekeeper, UM, and we meet a doctor. 231 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 1: They both kind of tend to the captain and his people, 232 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 1: but we get a reveal that they are both secretly 233 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 1: a part of this resistance and they've been helping the rebels, 234 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: sneaking food and supplies to them. Um. Then on Ophelia's 235 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 1: I think it's her first night there, the insect slash 236 00:15:56,240 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 1: fairy shows up and beckons Ophelia to follow it into 237 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 1: the labyrinth, and there she meets a fawn who thinks 238 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: that Ophelia is the princess from the fairy tale in 239 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: the beginning, and he has been like awaiting her return. 240 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 1: And as you said, Jamie, the princess's name is ma Wanna, 241 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: but with two ends Malana with ends. So the fawn 242 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: gives Ophelia three tasks to complete by the next full moon. 243 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: The first task is to feed these magic stones to 244 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: a giant toad who lives in a nearby tree um 245 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: who has been kind of like wreaking havoc on this tree, 246 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: and she has to retrieve the key from inside the toad, 247 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 1: which she successfully does. The toad scene so scary. I 248 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 1: never remember what happens to the toad. It basically just 249 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: barbs up all of its guts and then it's like 250 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 1: skin shell just sort of deflates like a balloon. Oh my. 251 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 1: There's a lot of like really horror imagery, like graphic 252 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:17,919 Speaker 1: violence and just like really scary stuff. It usually happens 253 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:22,479 Speaker 1: pretty quick, and you don't actually get a lot of 254 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 1: views of like the scene where he smashes a face 255 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: in with the bottle, right the bottle, and you know, 256 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 1: you don't actually see his face. You kind of get 257 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 1: a moment of it being smashed in. But it's not 258 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: like other gory movies where it's like we're going to 259 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:38,919 Speaker 1: give you the full look into his bleeding. It's like 260 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: kind of it's a very quick thing most of the time. 261 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 1: That's still the worst one for me, really bad. Yeah, 262 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 1: but I was reading that Del Toro based that off 263 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 1: of something that actually happened. I can find that quote 264 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 1: right now. I was just reading it. Yeah, awful. Um, okay, 265 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: So she's got the key from the toad. Meanwhile, Vidal 266 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 1: is getting closer to the rebels in the mountains. One 267 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 1: of them is Mercedes brother. Also Ophelia's mother is her 268 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: her difficult Gregnancy is is getting worse. Um, she's having 269 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: pain and bleeding. Then the fun shows up and he's like, Ophelia, 270 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 1: you haven't done your next task yet. You have to 271 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 1: go into this dangerous place. Take the key with you. 272 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,120 Speaker 1: You'll see this feast laid out before you, but don't 273 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 1: eat or drink anything. That's very important. So she goes 274 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 1: into this place and there's this scary creature, the Paleman, 275 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:45,119 Speaker 1: also Doug Jones. She sneaks past it and uses the 276 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,880 Speaker 1: key to retrieve this dagger, but the feast is very 277 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 1: tempting and she is a child with not much will power, 278 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: so she eats a couple of grapes and it awakens 279 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 1: the pale man who has eyeballs in his hands. It's 280 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: very scary and it kills two of the fawn's little 281 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: like fairy friends. But Ophelia manages to escape, and the 282 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 1: Fawn shows up again and he's like, um, you ate 283 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:13,920 Speaker 1: the things that I told you not to eat. You're 284 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: not worthy. You're never allowed to come back into the 285 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: labyrinth again. You can't be the princess And then right 286 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:25,160 Speaker 1: after this, Ophelia's mother dies during childbirth. The baby survived. 287 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:28,919 Speaker 1: The Greg does survive. His name is Greg. Canonically, I 288 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: believe he's credited Greg. Yeah, baby Greg. So meanwhile, Videl 289 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 1: is like figuring out that the doctor and Mercedes have 290 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: been helping the rebellion. So Mercedes makes a run for 291 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: it and takes Ophelia with her, but Videl catches them 292 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: trying to leave, and then he's about to interrogate Mercedes, 293 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:55,159 Speaker 1: but she fights back, stabs him a couple of times, 294 00:19:55,480 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 1: and then runs away. The so cathartic fun but then 295 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 1: Videl's army surrounds her as she's running away, but the 296 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: gorillas are hiding nearby and they like, sniper shoot the 297 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:15,880 Speaker 1: bad guys. Meanwhile, the phone comes back to Ophelia and 298 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,120 Speaker 1: he's like, Okay, you know what, I decided to give 299 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: you one more chance for your last task. You have 300 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,439 Speaker 1: to come to the Labyrinth and bring your baby brother, Greg, 301 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: and you have to do everything I say without question. 302 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: So Ophelia snatches the baby from Videl's office, but she 303 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: gives Videal this strong sedative and he's trying to chase 304 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: after her through the labyrinth. And then Ophelia comes upon 305 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,120 Speaker 1: the opening of the underworld and the Pond is like, okay, 306 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:45,959 Speaker 1: you have to sacrifice your baby brother because we need 307 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 1: the blood of an innocent to open the portal to 308 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: the underworld. And she's like, um funck no, dude, this 309 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 1: is a baby. I'm not gonna hurt it. Just then 310 00:20:55,080 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 1: Videl shows up, takes the baby and shoots Ophelia, and 311 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:07,640 Speaker 1: then the tears just start bursting from your head. And 312 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: then and then when Videl emerges from the Labyrinth, the 313 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: rebels have him surrounded and they kill him in another 314 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 1: very cathartic scene, and then we cut back to Ophelia, 315 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: who is dying, and her spilt blood and her refusal 316 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: to hurt her brother and sacrifice herself instead opens the 317 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:36,439 Speaker 1: portal to the underworld, where she is revived and she 318 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: reunites with her true mother and father, the King and 319 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: Queen of the Underworld. And then kind of the last 320 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 1: little bit of the movie is she leaves kind of 321 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:52,680 Speaker 1: like hints of her herself on earth, like a little flower, 322 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: and that you're saying that she dies and doesn't fall asleep, right, 323 00:21:58,000 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: because I was just worried that you were going to 324 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,439 Speaker 1: be hay that energy and on onto the cast. You 325 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 1: know what I've I gave this a lot of thought. 326 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 1: She definitely does it fall. I mean, she's only with 327 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 1: dead people. But I mean you could say the same 328 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 1: thing for well, what happens in Titanic, you know what, 329 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 1: Jamie I think, Well, here's the thing, James Cameron, if 330 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:25,679 Speaker 1: you read his script, he leaves it intentionally ambiguous in 331 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 1: the Titanic screenplay, whereas Garmo del Toro has stated pretty 332 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 1: definitively that the fairy tale aspect of this movie is 333 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: real and that she does, in fact die at the 334 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: end and go into the underworld, and that's all real. 335 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:49,400 Speaker 1: So point, James Cameron and Garama del Toro are friends, 336 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 1: So it's conceivable that del Toros at the end of 337 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,400 Speaker 1: Titanic and was like, oh my god, I love this 338 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 1: beautiful climactic ending scene in certainly Heaven. Uh let me 339 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 1: let me draw from this, uh for for my own movie. 340 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 1: James Cameron is my friend. I'm also like that, which 341 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 1: let me hold down a whole other rabbit hole of Like, 342 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: what are those conversations? I feel like those must be 343 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 1: some of like the weirdest conversations between two people you 344 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: could ever find. Like I would love to just hack 345 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,679 Speaker 1: in and see what those guys are talking about in 346 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 1: the emails. Well, he has got navy j pegs in 347 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 1: his Gmail for sure. Okay, well counter counterpoint. Yeah, del 348 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,440 Speaker 1: Toro saw the end of Titanic. He read the screenplay, 349 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: and he's just like, I don't like how ambiguous this is. 350 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 1: I think that James Cameron really left it open to interpretation, 351 00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 1: so much so that some really brilliant people they're easily 352 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,879 Speaker 1: interpret the end of Titanic as a dream. So I 353 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 1: want to make sure my ending is a little bit 354 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: more concrete counter counter counter point Del Toro, it's you 355 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 1: know the heaven in Pan's lab Ranther the you know 356 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 1: the underworld is a beautiful shimmering gold, which I think 357 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 1: is a direct reference to the heaven that is painted 358 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 1: at the end of Titanic, where the room is more 359 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,119 Speaker 1: luminescent and the lighting is different than You look up 360 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 1: to the sky and it's so beautiful and you're like, wow, 361 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 1: that must be what heaven is like, a place full 362 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: of dead people that you knew. And but isn't that 363 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 1: also what dreams are like? Every time I dream, it's 364 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 1: full of all the dead people. Like, my dreams are 365 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 1: not like that. I'll tell you. Oh, that's okay. That's 366 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,640 Speaker 1: a great counter counter counter counterpoint is that dreams are 367 00:24:55,720 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 1: usually terrifying. I had a dream last night that Adam 368 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: Sandler kept mailing bras that weren't my size to my house. 369 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: It's not heaven at all. That was there gold in 370 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 1: the background, golden light, no gold, There was no gold. 371 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 1: He was sending it through Amazon, so it wasn't even ethical. 372 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 1: He was sending me the wrong size bra to my 373 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 1: house over and over and over and over and over, 374 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 1: and I don't want to know what that dream means, 375 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 1: but I did have it. Well, I can see that 376 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:28,679 Speaker 1: we'll never agree on this, so I have somewhat of 377 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 1: a counterpoint here that that is an odd thing I 378 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 1: encountered in the research. In this essay, I'm probably gonna 379 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 1: be referring to a lot that I was surprised to 380 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 1: read because it's kind of a not a harsh criticism, 381 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: but a little bit. It's a bit of a criticism 382 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,159 Speaker 1: on Gama de Toro, which I was I was happy 383 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 1: to read, and it's exactly that that the writer criticizes. 384 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 1: Is that he is one of the most vocal directors 385 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: when it comes to his own films and loves to 386 00:25:55,960 --> 00:26:00,200 Speaker 1: explain every bit of it. But that then doesn't allow 387 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 1: for your interpretation of it. He is actively directing everyone's 388 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 1: view of how he wants his movies to be, which 389 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:08,880 Speaker 1: is kind of what you want to do. But he's 390 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 1: very heavily influencing everyone that loves him. And now you 391 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 1: can't find a flaw in it because he told you 392 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,440 Speaker 1: what to look for, opposed to being a little more 393 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 1: you know, critical of like, well, actually, I don't think 394 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:22,639 Speaker 1: it means that you know just because you say, it 395 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: means that you're still you still might be blind to 396 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:30,639 Speaker 1: what you're subconsciously doing here. That's interesting though, because I 397 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 1: think that in this movie. That's why I like was 398 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,399 Speaker 1: kind of going back and forth about like, Okay, is 399 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 1: it real? Is this like just Ophelia's coping mechanism for 400 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:45,680 Speaker 1: for like dealing with living in this like fascist household, 401 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: or is this are there actually like fairy tale elements 402 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,439 Speaker 1: happening in her to her like in reality? Because I 403 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 1: think the movie gives you enough clues for both sides 404 00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 1: of the argument that it is still open to interpretation. 405 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: San um So, I don't even know if I agree 406 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:06,640 Speaker 1: with that criticism, because even though like del Toro is like, yes, 407 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 1: here's what I here's my intention, or here's how I 408 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: read my own movie, but I think he still like 409 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 1: gives you enough of enough opportunities to interpret it a 410 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,959 Speaker 1: number of different other ways, especially for the blurring of 411 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 1: those worlds. Yeah, I kind of like, I mean, I 412 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: kind of like that kind of DeSUS. I mean, we've 413 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 1: kind of been talking about this an unusual amount lately, 414 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 1: but we also talked about it in our episode about 415 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: a girl walks home alone at night, where um Anna 416 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:40,200 Speaker 1: Lily I'm your port was very resistant to have her 417 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,119 Speaker 1: movie labeled as any specific type of movie. It sounds 418 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 1: like to come from the opposite side of well, where 419 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 1: del Toro is coming, where del Toro is possibly being 420 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,439 Speaker 1: overly specific about like no, I didn't mean this, I 421 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 1: meant this, where she was like, I'm not going to 422 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 1: tell you what anything means, and I don't want you 423 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 1: to put any label on this movie, even if it 424 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: makes it sound better or whatever. So I think that 425 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:11,680 Speaker 1: that's interesting. Yeah, I guess different directors make different choices. Um, 426 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 1: we got to take a quick break, but then we'll 427 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:22,400 Speaker 1: come right back for more. Alright, we have emerged back 428 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: out of the labyrinth and from out of the womb. 429 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 1: That long staircase. Yeah, I wish I lived down there. 430 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 1: That design is so yeah, I mean it's so beautiful. Yeah, 431 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 1: where should we start where? I mean a few things 432 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: that I never really noticed or kind of. Um, was 433 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 1: really impressed by watching this movie with our lens in mind. 434 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: Something that jumped out to me. I'll just jump in here. Uh, 435 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: women and blood, which I never really picked up on 436 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 1: because there are bloods of all genders still in this movie. 437 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 1: All people have blood everyone has blood and that's just 438 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 1: a fact, unless, of course I did just watched every 439 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 1: Twilight movie, so not always some people drink it anyways. Uh, 440 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: But just the real relationship between women and blood, I 441 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: thought was really interesting and I'm pretty sure I like 442 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: where most of it goes where I mean, I think 443 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 1: it's very rare that you see a difficult pregnancy great 444 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 1: sorite partner friend, what did you say? A difficult Gregnancy 445 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 1: on screen, which is weird because they're incredibly common and 446 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 1: kind of the complications that come with pregnancy, even a 447 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: metaph metaphor pregnancy like this very clearly is I thought 448 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 1: was it was cool and that you see kind of 449 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 1: the gorrier. I thought it was kind of cool to 450 00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 1: see that. I also felt like there were connection between 451 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 1: um and again, sometimes I'm like, Okay, a man writing 452 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: the story of three women. Of course there's just gonna 453 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: be a little bit too much vaginal fixation. Uh. And 454 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 1: I don't think that this movie is really an exception 455 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: to that, but it's such a good movie that I'm like, well, 456 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 1: but like even at the end, I felt like del 457 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 1: toro and please jump in if you're like you're reading 458 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 1: into this it's not a vagina thing. But even at 459 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 1: the end where it's like Ophelia's blood that that activates 460 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 1: the floor of vagina and stuff like that, where it 461 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 1: felt and I was able to find a few readings 462 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: of this that also referenced this, so I'm like, okay, 463 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 1: I don't feel completely off base, but just kind of 464 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:47,719 Speaker 1: the symbolism of blood in a woman's life where Ophelia 465 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 1: obviously like that never reaches menstruating age, but her you 466 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 1: know blood at the end kind of activates this big 467 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 1: um change in the in the midmost of this world, 468 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 1: or like there's Prey Nancy blood we see, there's you know, 469 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: injury blood, we see, there's just I don't know, women 470 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: in blood. It had me thinking, I see your point. 471 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 1: That didn't even occur to me, And that almost feels 472 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 1: like the type of like deep read, like over analytical 473 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:27,719 Speaker 1: kind of thing. Whenever, like I don't know, there are 474 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 1: different movies where there will be like a mountain and 475 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: people will be like, that's a ballast, that's a Paenis 476 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: that suggesting this is not a floor of vagina though 477 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 1: I don't know, I mean the floor of vagina. I 478 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 1: didn't think about I didn't consider that because I just 479 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 1: thought it for a labyrinth. But I do think that 480 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 1: is a valid point to make, is the floor of vagina. 481 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 1: But he also was very explicitly said that the tree 482 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 1: is over there ovaries or a uterus. It did that 483 00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:00,120 Speaker 1: that tree did look like I'm going to defend my 484 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 1: floor of vagina, and like whatever women's blood saying. I mean, 485 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 1: I don't, I don't and I don't even think this 486 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 1: is like a misstep for this movie. But it was 487 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 1: just something that stood out to me. And this and 488 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: even the who like many of the hallways we see 489 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 1: her walking through, uh you know, there's a fallopian vibe 490 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 1: going on to them. Yeah, I mean, and it and 491 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 1: it makes sense where there's I mean, so much of 492 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 1: the movie hinges on this Gregnancy that is difficult and 493 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 1: full of trials, and so that is true. Yeah, yeah, 494 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 1: And I guess the tunnel that she goes into to 495 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 1: find the frog that could be seen as vaginal opening 496 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 1: to so much of it is so much of it 497 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 1: seems to be about discovering yourself and growing up and 498 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 1: coming to maturity, so that the floor of vagina makes 499 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:54,479 Speaker 1: a lot of sense now of you know, the blood 500 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 1: going into the floor of vagina, being a period and 501 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 1: thus reaching maturity and finding yourself in the underworld. I 502 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 1: don't know. Yeah, I guess I'm not totally sold on 503 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,520 Speaker 1: the on the period metaphor at the end. I just 504 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 1: the relating like women in blood to a pregnancy or 505 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: just vaginal blood at all. You would really not see 506 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 1: in a big movie like this very often, but you 507 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 1: see it pretty frequently in this movie, mostly via um 508 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,960 Speaker 1: Ophelia's mom. Yeah, I guess I didn't give a much 509 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 1: thought prior to this. Yeah, it was. I truly couldn't 510 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: stop any about it in this one, where I'm like, well, 511 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 1: there for me, it's a floor of vagina and a 512 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 1: vagina hallway. One of the first things I wanted to 513 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 1: bring up was that this is a hero's journey style 514 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 1: narrative where a girl is the hero um, which is 515 00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 1: pretty unique. It's not often done. Female characters rarely get 516 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 1: to be the hero in a hero's journey story. Another 517 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,360 Speaker 1: example off the top of my head is another again 518 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 1: another character named moh Wanna, but like Disney's mo Wanna, 519 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 1: is one of only a few other like popular media 520 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:25,400 Speaker 1: hero's journey stories. I guess the new Star Wars movie 521 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:31,520 Speaker 1: like The Affair, but just definitely coming more popular, definitely 522 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 1: not parody, and there it's only been in I think 523 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,840 Speaker 1: pretty recent years that filmmakers are like I would argue 524 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,320 Speaker 1: Hunger Games as well, Like sure, even even the worst 525 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 1: of OZ. I mean, they definitely exist and have existed, 526 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:48,960 Speaker 1: but just definitely not not to the same for sure. 527 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: So I think that is cool for sure. And also 528 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,800 Speaker 1: I guess worth mentioning in the case of this movie, 529 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 1: that she doesn't survive the heroes Ernie, which is I 530 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:03,840 Speaker 1: mean it fits again, it like fits the story perfectly, 531 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:08,319 Speaker 1: but it's very sad or I mean does because she 532 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:16,319 Speaker 1: dies and gets reborn in underworld heaven. Isn't that surviving? Yeah, 533 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,359 Speaker 1: I mean it definitely is in a way, um, but 534 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,759 Speaker 1: I mean in terms of does she get to ever 535 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 1: speak to Mercedes again? Does she likes stuff like that? 536 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 1: Like she I feel like, yeah, it's it's very sad. 537 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:31,359 Speaker 1: It's so sad she reached the goal that she was 538 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 1: reaching for. But yes, because I do still like to 539 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 1: think that it is ambiguous that like that was just 540 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 1: her in her head and now she's happily living that 541 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 1: fantasy in the afterlife. But was it real, I would 542 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:50,400 Speaker 1: like to I guess, I don't know. I know I 543 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 1: wanted to be real. Um. I also like if we're 544 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 1: just in the way that I don't know. There's a 545 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: number of between our three main female characters. Everyone has 546 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,839 Speaker 1: a different dynamic and a different type of relationship, which 547 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:08,680 Speaker 1: is really cool. Um, And you kind of get these 548 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:14,279 Speaker 1: three very different types of women and they have very 549 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 1: different responses to the like very oppressive force that's on 550 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:22,839 Speaker 1: top of them. Right where you have Carmen, who is 551 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:27,640 Speaker 1: I mean, and and Carmen is very fascinating to me, 552 00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:31,480 Speaker 1: and I I love her so much because she is 553 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 1: the most deferential to the patriarchy. But I feel like 554 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,560 Speaker 1: a lesser movie would make you feel like and you know, 555 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 1: look what happened to her, But but you know exactly 556 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,680 Speaker 1: why she is making the choices that she's making. It's 557 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:50,920 Speaker 1: made very clear, even when it sucks and it's upsetting, 558 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:54,520 Speaker 1: and you can tell that she is not always thrilled 559 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 1: to have to make them. But with her, it's this 560 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,239 Speaker 1: I don't know, like something I'd never really gave a 561 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:03,919 Speaker 1: lot of thought too, but kind of like towing that 562 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:08,120 Speaker 1: line of like she's trying to you know, like there's 563 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,919 Speaker 1: a class thing at play for her as well, which 564 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,520 Speaker 1: I feel like it is symbolized through when Ophelia gets 565 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:16,760 Speaker 1: the dress all fucked up and Carmen is really upset 566 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,880 Speaker 1: because that symbolizes a higher class status, and it seems 567 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,759 Speaker 1: like the trade off for that is her having to 568 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:29,279 Speaker 1: put up with some of the most horrifying sexism of 569 00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:32,279 Speaker 1: all time. But it also the movie doesn't I don't know. 570 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 1: I mean, she does die right so, but I but 571 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,799 Speaker 1: I did feel like the movie didn't think less of 572 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:45,080 Speaker 1: her for making those choices, which made me, Yeah, I 573 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 1: really love her. And even though you know, it's like 574 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 1: she's not the like rebel of the story, but her 575 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:56,440 Speaker 1: narrative is no less important or valuable, and that is, 576 00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,960 Speaker 1: I think, really beautiful. We've talked about the from time 577 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:05,680 Speaker 1: to time on the podcast about how women not to 578 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:10,680 Speaker 1: the same extent in contemporary times, but definitely in decades 579 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:15,520 Speaker 1: past and centuries passed in millennia past, where women have 580 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 1: been at such a major disadvantage in life, where they 581 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:26,040 Speaker 1: basically have to make huge sacrifices to survive. And it 582 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,920 Speaker 1: felt to me like she was a widow, her her husband, 583 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:33,120 Speaker 1: her husband died. Did they say he died in the war, 584 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:36,200 Speaker 1: so he probably he died in the in the you know, 585 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:41,120 Speaker 1: Spanish civil wars about to have a great beard. I 586 00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:43,919 Speaker 1: forget he looks like at the end, I was like, well, cool, Yeah, 587 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:49,360 Speaker 1: he's more or less Santa Claus. And so he died. 588 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,960 Speaker 1: What I'm guessing was quite a while ago. Her mother 589 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,880 Speaker 1: had to like take over his business as a tailor 590 00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:01,200 Speaker 1: in like the shop. It was war time. She was struggling, 591 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:05,960 Speaker 1: and then this distinguished military man comes along and probably 592 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:09,480 Speaker 1: like I don't know the circumstances of their marriage, but 593 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 1: she probably just saw him as like, well, he can 594 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:16,880 Speaker 1: provide for me and my daughter, so I will marry 595 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:20,000 Speaker 1: him because what are my choices, which I feel like 596 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 1: is like illustrated really clearly in that scene where Ophelia 597 00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:27,120 Speaker 1: it doesn't understand why her mother felt that she had 598 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:30,400 Speaker 1: to get married again, and her mom says, I was 599 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,480 Speaker 1: alone too long, and then it's it's so sad because 600 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:35,319 Speaker 1: I feel like you weren't alone. I was right there, 601 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:41,480 Speaker 1: but just there's there's a level that Ophelia doesn't yet understand, 602 00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 1: like what it takes to survive under I mean, almost 603 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,880 Speaker 1: every kind of oppression you can imagine for sure. Yeah, 604 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 1: so this was like a choice of survival she had 605 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:58,920 Speaker 1: to make by marrying Vidal and then and then he 606 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,520 Speaker 1: turns out to be a horrible, abusive piece of ship 607 00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:07,759 Speaker 1: that is unfortunately the case all too often. But yeah, 608 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,080 Speaker 1: again it's like what choice did she have if she 609 00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:14,719 Speaker 1: was going to provide for herself and her daughter? So, um, yeah, 610 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,920 Speaker 1: I thought that was an interesting exploration. I wonder if 611 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:20,919 Speaker 1: that could have been dived into just a little bit more. 612 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,680 Speaker 1: I don't know if there was necessarily space or need 613 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:26,800 Speaker 1: for it, but I kind of she was the character, 614 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,000 Speaker 1: the female character to me that I felt if if 615 00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:33,080 Speaker 1: anyone could have gotten a little bit more development, it 616 00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:37,040 Speaker 1: could have been Ophelia's mom. But um yeah, I still 617 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,000 Speaker 1: I think it was still interesting the way that her 618 00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:43,520 Speaker 1: kind of circumstances were presented to us. I think she 619 00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:47,880 Speaker 1: also plays she's kind of used as the perfect example 620 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,040 Speaker 1: of how all women at that time we're just like 621 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,640 Speaker 1: you're just shoved down to nothing, Like you're just constantly 622 00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:59,160 Speaker 1: gotten ship after ship after ship. There's no easy way out, 623 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:02,400 Speaker 1: and so she kind of, I think, unfortunately, has to 624 00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:04,800 Speaker 1: die to prove that point. You're like, nope, you're just 625 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:06,520 Speaker 1: not gonna get anything and then we're just gonna kill you. 626 00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:10,120 Speaker 1: And that's that. Yeah. I was feeling that way on 627 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:12,719 Speaker 1: this few as well, where it's like they're whatever, they're 628 00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:16,040 Speaker 1: these three women and girls are representing kind of like 629 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:20,200 Speaker 1: three different ways to approach this oppressive force and what 630 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,520 Speaker 1: are the outcomes where she's very deferential to it? And 631 00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:25,560 Speaker 1: I feel like like you're just saying your estortle, Like 632 00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:28,359 Speaker 1: the movie doesn't want you to really take away, like, well, 633 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:30,440 Speaker 1: you should just be passive to the worst person in 634 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:32,960 Speaker 1: the entire world and you'll you'll get out just fine 635 00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,600 Speaker 1: where And and I think it's like really telling that 636 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:40,000 Speaker 1: I don't know, I mean, I always am like doesn't 637 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:44,319 Speaker 1: feel you have to die um, but that Mercedes is 638 00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,880 Speaker 1: the sole character to kind of get out um and 639 00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:53,040 Speaker 1: be able to continue on in this version of the world. 640 00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:56,800 Speaker 1: And how it's like someone who is from a lower 641 00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:01,160 Speaker 1: class and is you know, expected to be deferential to 642 00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:07,040 Speaker 1: the same person, but finds a way to navigate around 643 00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,960 Speaker 1: that and kind of rebel and push anyways. And to 644 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:14,319 Speaker 1: have that character be the one who survives and goes on, 645 00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:18,839 Speaker 1: you know, it's like the metaphor isn't a softball it's 646 00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:22,879 Speaker 1: like I get it, but I like that, yet there's 647 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,040 Speaker 1: still again, I'm gonna keep referencing the same There's a 648 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:28,200 Speaker 1: book that I have. It's a great book, yet is it. 649 00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,080 Speaker 1: It's called The Devil's Backbone and Pans Labyrinth Studies in 650 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:33,920 Speaker 1: the Horror film and they're about these two specific films. 651 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,640 Speaker 1: The Quest for Meaning in Pans Labyrinthe by Romana Cortie, 652 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:40,799 Speaker 1: I don't know is the one that's a little bit 653 00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:44,280 Speaker 1: more critical. And she will also point out that even 654 00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:48,680 Speaker 1: this happy sad ending is still a huge sugarcoating of 655 00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:52,719 Speaker 1: the situation because Franco continued to rule for years after 656 00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:58,760 Speaker 1: to nineteen, so like there isn't even in that little 657 00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:01,520 Speaker 1: bit of hope that like there is no happy ending 658 00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:04,760 Speaker 1: for them. It's fun And that gets mentioned to where 659 00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:09,520 Speaker 1: I think it's Mercedes talking to her brother or different 660 00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:12,600 Speaker 1: rebels are talking to each other and they'll say, like, 661 00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:15,680 Speaker 1: even if we can like kill Vidal, they're just gonna 662 00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:18,000 Speaker 1: send another one. And if we kill him, they're going 663 00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,759 Speaker 1: to send another one. So yeah, it's just like in reality, 664 00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:25,560 Speaker 1: like Mercedes survives to the end of this movie, but like, 665 00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:27,920 Speaker 1: but who knows what happens there's no guarantee that in 666 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,040 Speaker 1: like a year, she might not have been killed by 667 00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:35,360 Speaker 1: the fascist regime. Yeah, so yeah, I was. I was 668 00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:39,759 Speaker 1: kind of like, I like that they at least reference that, 669 00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:43,319 Speaker 1: but like I I also see her criticism that that 670 00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:45,840 Speaker 1: kind of is like we I mean, in any time 671 00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:49,560 Speaker 1: like one character represents I mean, I think that that's 672 00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:54,000 Speaker 1: the downside of having like Mr Patriarchy as your villain, 673 00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:58,840 Speaker 1: of like, well, once you've killed Mr. Fascism, Mr Fascism, 674 00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:02,799 Speaker 1: hyphen Patriarchy, joy can spread across the land again, when 675 00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:07,080 Speaker 1: of course it's not never one person you know. Yet 676 00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:10,280 Speaker 1: he's still such you're saying early, he's like a perfect 677 00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:13,799 Speaker 1: villain because he's so brutal and evil and there's no 678 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:18,400 Speaker 1: way to sympathize with him really, which you also understand why, 679 00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:21,600 Speaker 1: I mean, you don't understand like it not you know, sympathetically. 680 00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:25,640 Speaker 1: But he is just a disgusting product of the time 681 00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:30,120 Speaker 1: with major daddy issues. Oh my god, I can't wait 682 00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:33,640 Speaker 1: to talk about his daddy issues. And the daddy issues 683 00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:38,400 Speaker 1: in this movie are running rampant. There's an exchange I 684 00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:44,080 Speaker 1: really like between Vidal and the doctor character who the 685 00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:48,200 Speaker 1: doctor is tending to one of the rebels that the 686 00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:52,640 Speaker 1: fashion the fashion guys have captured. They're torturing him to 687 00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:56,040 Speaker 1: get him to talk, and um, the doctor comes in 688 00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,759 Speaker 1: to tend to him after he's been tortured, and the 689 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,640 Speaker 1: bull guys like, please kill me, and so the doctor complies, 690 00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,480 Speaker 1: is like yes, this is like we have to make 691 00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:09,080 Speaker 1: sure you can't they don't get any more information out 692 00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:11,600 Speaker 1: of you. And then Videl comes in and he's like, 693 00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:15,120 Speaker 1: you disobeyed me. Why did you do that? Why didn't 694 00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:18,840 Speaker 1: you just obey me? And um, the doctors like, well, 695 00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:23,520 Speaker 1: to obey someone without question is something that only someone 696 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:27,080 Speaker 1: like you can do and not me, which is like 697 00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:31,400 Speaker 1: what fascism is is, you know, just like obeying without question. 698 00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:33,600 Speaker 1: And then that ties back in the end in a 699 00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:38,080 Speaker 1: in a really cool thematic way where the fawn is like, okay, Ophelia, 700 00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:41,920 Speaker 1: I need you to just bring your brother. Don't ask questions, 701 00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,960 Speaker 1: and then when he's like we need to like spill 702 00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:48,279 Speaker 1: his blood for this whole thing to work, you can't like, 703 00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:51,399 Speaker 1: don't question it, and she's just like no, like, I'm 704 00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:55,839 Speaker 1: not some like Patsy, I'm not some or not's not 705 00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:59,000 Speaker 1: the right word, but I'm not some just like follower 706 00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:06,480 Speaker 1: who's she said that though like a Newsy fucking Patsy, 707 00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:11,359 Speaker 1: and that's rewarded because she's like, well then she you know, 708 00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:16,000 Speaker 1: she sacrifices herself and and you know, I don't know, 709 00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:20,920 Speaker 1: the moral of the story is just don't follow orders 710 00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:26,960 Speaker 1: without questioning them, because then you become a fascist the end. Yeah, 711 00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:31,839 Speaker 1: I think it's like Ophelia. I don't know, I'm really 712 00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:36,720 Speaker 1: because you've you are so much more entrenched in the 713 00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:40,600 Speaker 1: discourse around this movie than than we are Ophelia. I 714 00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:44,040 Speaker 1: I it makes me sad that Ophelia dies, but it 715 00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:46,719 Speaker 1: does I mean, if we're going with the read where 716 00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:49,359 Speaker 1: she dies, and I think that that makes a kind 717 00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:54,920 Speaker 1: of interesting complex point where like you have one character 718 00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:59,560 Speaker 1: who differs to the oppressive forest and it kills them. 719 00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:02,680 Speaker 1: You have one character who pushes against the oppressive force 720 00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:06,759 Speaker 1: and survives for now, and then you have Ophelia who 721 00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:11,560 Speaker 1: pushes against the oppressive force and loses. And just I 722 00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:16,000 Speaker 1: don't know, seeing all those different kinds, like, it doesn't 723 00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:20,279 Speaker 1: necessarily mean that there's one way to go against an 724 00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:23,040 Speaker 1: oppressive force that's going to be a win. It just 725 00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:26,400 Speaker 1: means that, you know, you have to do. It shows 726 00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:28,719 Speaker 1: the weight of the oppression of like this is such 727 00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:33,520 Speaker 1: a massive, massive front of evil, which is hard to 728 00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:38,520 Speaker 1: get around. But another weird is the fun gas little philia, 729 00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:42,160 Speaker 1: right for sure, because that's what that's that's the weird, 730 00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:44,720 Speaker 1: that thing that I still kind of have some trouble 731 00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:49,759 Speaker 1: under standing why. I suppose, like was the eating of 732 00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,040 Speaker 1: the grapes saying you'll never see me again but then 733 00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:54,760 Speaker 1: coming back for a second chance part of the test 734 00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:58,239 Speaker 1: or was is that just like all of this one 735 00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:03,360 Speaker 1: long gaslight? And the other problem in this story really 736 00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:06,200 Speaker 1: has the number one has the number one self proclaimed 737 00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:07,879 Speaker 1: Gammo fan. I also have to bring up a lot 738 00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:11,520 Speaker 1: of the hiccups. But the odd thing in this story 739 00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:15,480 Speaker 1: is that it's about Princess Juana running away from a 740 00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:22,000 Speaker 1: patriarchy into a human evil evil like very oppressive patriarchy. 741 00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:26,520 Speaker 1: You want to return back to the original patriarchy. So 742 00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:30,480 Speaker 1: there's never really a freedom that she gets. There's a 743 00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:34,960 Speaker 1: happier ending, but it's she still goes from patriarchy to patriarchy, right. 744 00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,759 Speaker 1: It makes you wonder why she ran away from the 745 00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:40,600 Speaker 1: underworld in the first place, Like I'd imagine it was 746 00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:44,799 Speaker 1: out of curiosity, but that is I hadn't I hadn't 747 00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:46,840 Speaker 1: even considered it from that angle, and like, yeah, she 748 00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:51,719 Speaker 1: is like it is another daddy, daddy's own, but a 749 00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:55,160 Speaker 1: nicer daddy this time. Yeah. Well, I was like, is 750 00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:57,520 Speaker 1: it like, I mean, it's not like The Little Mermaid 751 00:48:57,560 --> 00:48:59,359 Speaker 1: where she's like, I fell in love with a man 752 00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:01,439 Speaker 1: from above of so I have to go up there. 753 00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:04,000 Speaker 1: I have to see a plot which and then you know, 754 00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:07,200 Speaker 1: get some legs and then become a human. It's nothing like, yeah, 755 00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:10,960 Speaker 1: I guess we don't know why she ran away or 756 00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:15,080 Speaker 1: like that part of this story doesn't apply to her 757 00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:16,960 Speaker 1: that I was kind of struggling with that. To her, 758 00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:20,080 Speaker 1: I'm like, where she gets to the labyrinth and then 759 00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:23,520 Speaker 1: the fon is like, you're the main character in the story. 760 00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:25,520 Speaker 1: But then it's like, well, then why doesn't she know 761 00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:28,600 Speaker 1: about anything that happens to the character before because she 762 00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:32,839 Speaker 1: loses her memory as as soon as she comes, so 763 00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:36,160 Speaker 1: she forgets why the first patriarchy is bad. So the 764 00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:37,960 Speaker 1: ending of the movie is she's going to go back 765 00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:43,600 Speaker 1: and then find out soon I mean patriarchy bad, but 766 00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:48,000 Speaker 1: they never also explicitly say bad, So I like, what wait, truly, 767 00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:50,319 Speaker 1: I just imagine like the kind of situation of like 768 00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:52,360 Speaker 1: I want to live amongst the humans to see what 769 00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:54,560 Speaker 1: it's like, but then I want to be where are 770 00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:59,319 Speaker 1: the people are exactly, and the other kind of she's 771 00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:02,880 Speaker 1: a try so you can't falter for it. But the 772 00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:07,840 Speaker 1: other odd thing about the situation is that the world 773 00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:12,400 Speaker 1: is so oppressive she would rather leave, you know what 774 00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:15,160 Speaker 1: I mean. The kind of feels like a in the 775 00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:17,919 Speaker 1: current situation, it feels a little bit like I hate 776 00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:19,719 Speaker 1: both of the candidates, so I'm not going to vote. 777 00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:22,799 Speaker 1: Oh so I'm just gonna like I'm out of here. 778 00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:26,160 Speaker 1: I'm I'm moving to Canada, moving, and she's literally moving 779 00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:31,080 Speaker 1: to Wow, And I'm like, she's a child, so of 780 00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:33,680 Speaker 1: course that that's the option we'd all take. At least 781 00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:40,600 Speaker 1: she can't vote. Uh, yeah, that makes sense. It's always 782 00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:42,799 Speaker 1: I mean, and I guess the other the other way 783 00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:47,200 Speaker 1: that I saw to read that happening was like whatever 784 00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:50,800 Speaker 1: you if you're going from, Like she pushed against the 785 00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:54,200 Speaker 1: oppressive force. It lost her her life, but then it 786 00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:59,680 Speaker 1: kind of also won her this immortality that's implied of 787 00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:02,560 Speaker 1: like almost like a Martyrie martyr for the cause kind 788 00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:07,319 Speaker 1: of immortality. So even though she's physically dead. Maybe I 789 00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:11,160 Speaker 1: don't know, it's like her her death meant something in 790 00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:16,000 Speaker 1: the human world and it impacted people in the human world, 791 00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:19,880 Speaker 1: which is I mean, yeah, I don't know. That's the 792 00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:21,960 Speaker 1: positive spin I can see on that, but it also 793 00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:24,440 Speaker 1: could be seen as moving to Canada. I had not 794 00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:27,279 Speaker 1: considered the martyr I saw. I saw more as it 795 00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:32,719 Speaker 1: like another victim of the Franco regime. But the martyrdom 796 00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:36,640 Speaker 1: of it is that changes everything. I hope, hopefully, I'm like, 797 00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:39,760 Speaker 1: you would hope right that, like Mercedes survives, and hopefully 798 00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:42,759 Speaker 1: she survives long enough to tell the other rebels about this, 799 00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:45,960 Speaker 1: like little girl who wouldn't listen to the captain and 800 00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:49,240 Speaker 1: like had this big imagination and lost her whole family 801 00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:53,920 Speaker 1: and gave her life up because she wouldn't capitulate or whatever. 802 00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:58,239 Speaker 1: I hope, I mean, I hope because otherwise it's like, 803 00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:03,680 Speaker 1: oh God, life is so many ningless. And on that note, 804 00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:07,400 Speaker 1: let's take a quick break and then come back for 805 00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:16,520 Speaker 1: more discussion and we're back, just really quick stuff. I mean, 806 00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:18,600 Speaker 1: this was kind of like I guess the one oh 807 00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:22,440 Speaker 1: one of why Ophelia is such a cool character, but 808 00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:26,680 Speaker 1: just so it's all said, put it out there. She's 809 00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:31,200 Speaker 1: she's a little rebellious kid. She doesn't wear fancy dresses 810 00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:34,000 Speaker 1: that look like exactly like the Alice in Wonderland dress 811 00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:37,440 Speaker 1: because I'm sure a reason when you tell her to. 812 00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:41,200 Speaker 1: I like that she has this really rebellious spirit, but 813 00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:45,319 Speaker 1: it doesn't like it doesn't mean that she's a bad kid. 814 00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:46,840 Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of times you see that 815 00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:49,000 Speaker 1: in movies where it's like you just need to learn 816 00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:51,920 Speaker 1: to be good, where she knows that her mom is wrong. 817 00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:55,000 Speaker 1: She doesn't understand why her mom is making the decision 818 00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:59,480 Speaker 1: or wrong by her view right, she doesn't understand why 819 00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:02,440 Speaker 1: her mom is making the decisions that she's making. But 820 00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:08,120 Speaker 1: it doesn't destroy their relationship. It definitely affects it, but 821 00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:11,719 Speaker 1: it they still have this like strong love and respect 822 00:53:11,719 --> 00:53:14,719 Speaker 1: for each other that doesn't come apart even though they 823 00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:17,120 Speaker 1: are being true to what they think is right in 824 00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:22,280 Speaker 1: very different ways, which is something you don't usually get 825 00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:24,520 Speaker 1: in a story like this where it's like, I mean, 826 00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:28,080 Speaker 1: I guess I'm just in this headspace because we are 827 00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:32,400 Speaker 1: talking about the Little Mermaid a lot. But like Ariel 828 00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:37,240 Speaker 1: disobeys her dad and he's like, Cia, you suck you're bad, 829 00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:41,080 Speaker 1: And I like that happens in stories with young rebellious 830 00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:43,200 Speaker 1: protagonists and a lot of their parents are like, no, 831 00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:45,920 Speaker 1: I don't see it your way. I was never a child. 832 00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:49,360 Speaker 1: I'm going to destroy your room full of a little 833 00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:53,839 Speaker 1: weird your labyrinth. But in this I like that there 834 00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:57,000 Speaker 1: are so many shades of gray to the mother daughter relationship, 835 00:53:57,040 --> 00:53:59,440 Speaker 1: even though you don't see them together that that much. 836 00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:03,480 Speaker 1: But even that moment where I don't know, my favorite 837 00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:05,680 Speaker 1: moment they have together on this watch is like when 838 00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:09,000 Speaker 1: she's in the bathtub and she's just disobeyed for the 839 00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:15,160 Speaker 1: five millionth time, and her mom comes in and is like, well, 840 00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:18,279 Speaker 1: we're very disappointed, and you were really frustrated, and the 841 00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:21,680 Speaker 1: captain is more disappointed than me Cia, and I was like, okay, 842 00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:24,839 Speaker 1: that's like a really lovely and then Ophelia like gives 843 00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:28,399 Speaker 1: this little smirk like I'm glad I disappointed him because 844 00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:31,879 Speaker 1: I hate him. She knew and I and also that's 845 00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:34,920 Speaker 1: like indicating to her that her mom is not actually 846 00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:39,160 Speaker 1: that disappointed in her, and it's just like, which is lovely. 847 00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:43,120 Speaker 1: I like. I like that. I also like the relationship 848 00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:46,960 Speaker 1: dynamics between the three of them, The three the three 849 00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:52,680 Speaker 1: main female protagonists being the mom, because you have the 850 00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:54,799 Speaker 1: mom who's like struggling and trying to do the best 851 00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:56,960 Speaker 1: for her mother, I mean for her daughter. But then 852 00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:02,680 Speaker 1: Ophelia also goes to I have to say that with um, 853 00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:05,239 Speaker 1: I guess the things that she can't talk about with 854 00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:08,200 Speaker 1: their mother. And I appreciate that being there in the 855 00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:11,239 Speaker 1: movie because that I feel like that never that doesn't 856 00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:13,880 Speaker 1: come up often with a child talking to an adult 857 00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:17,040 Speaker 1: about kind of grown up things, I guess, or things 858 00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:19,520 Speaker 1: like this is how I feel because they have to talk. 859 00:55:19,560 --> 00:55:21,359 Speaker 1: They're the only two that can talk to each other 860 00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:24,600 Speaker 1: really about, Like I'm in this secret rebellion, I was 861 00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:28,120 Speaker 1: like I met a faun though at a lot of 862 00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:31,839 Speaker 1: points to Mercedes listens, but it's also kind of like 863 00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:35,680 Speaker 1: magic isn't real, right, But I think that's also just 864 00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:40,280 Speaker 1: from coming from being hardened from flipping in a fascist regime. 865 00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:46,359 Speaker 1: Perhaps what I like that Mercedes does that Ophelia's mom 866 00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:50,640 Speaker 1: doesn't is that, yeah, Like it is definitely clear from 867 00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:53,400 Speaker 1: the beginning that Mercedes is like, Okay, this is like 868 00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:56,120 Speaker 1: a kid thing and it's an imagination thing, but she 869 00:55:56,160 --> 00:56:01,200 Speaker 1: doesn't try to really take that from Ophelia because it 870 00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:05,160 Speaker 1: seems like, I mean, Merses especially is so entrenched in 871 00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:11,160 Speaker 1: like some really difficult shit, and it seems like she 872 00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:13,640 Speaker 1: sees this kid and she's like, oh my gosh, this 873 00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:16,799 Speaker 1: kid has such a wild imagination and has so much 874 00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:19,280 Speaker 1: going on in their inner life that at least doesn't 875 00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:22,120 Speaker 1: it's a projection of living in a fascist regime, but 876 00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:25,000 Speaker 1: it's at least fun and it's hers, And so she 877 00:56:25,040 --> 00:56:27,600 Speaker 1: doesn't try to be like this is fake. I think 878 00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:30,879 Speaker 1: she's just like, Okay, don't like, don't take things too far. 879 00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:33,920 Speaker 1: I don't know. And she also says like she feels 880 00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:38,040 Speaker 1: like a cool aunt for her friend talked to, especially 881 00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:40,919 Speaker 1: because she says like, no, I don't believe in those 882 00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:43,040 Speaker 1: things now, but I did when I was your it. 883 00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:45,040 Speaker 1: You know, I did when I was a kid. So 884 00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:48,319 Speaker 1: it's like she's letting Ophelia having it and like not 885 00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:51,839 Speaker 1: telling her not to believe in those things, whereas her 886 00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:54,600 Speaker 1: mom is like, these are you just need to stop 887 00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:58,160 Speaker 1: reading so many fairy tales, like there is no magic, 888 00:56:58,440 --> 00:57:00,960 Speaker 1: and so like her mom sort of forcing her own 889 00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:04,719 Speaker 1: little bit of oppression on Ophelia, whereas Mercedes is like 890 00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:07,680 Speaker 1: you like yeah, but like believe in whatever you want 891 00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:10,640 Speaker 1: to believe in if it helps you cope with these 892 00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:14,359 Speaker 1: awful times. I'm going off that. I mean, it's like 893 00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:19,480 Speaker 1: her style. You were saying earlier that the fun is 894 00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:26,160 Speaker 1: like an asshole for sure, Like he's definitely gaslighting and 895 00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:30,720 Speaker 1: confusing her constantly, and like the goal of what he 896 00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:35,000 Speaker 1: actually wants is never clear, and if if that is 897 00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:38,040 Speaker 1: kind of like her projection of the world she's around, 898 00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:42,080 Speaker 1: where like it's this inner labyrinth that she has to 899 00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:46,400 Speaker 1: navigate that's full of male figures that she's kind of 900 00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:49,720 Speaker 1: afraid of that are giving her. That's like I don't know, 901 00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:55,360 Speaker 1: just like providing endless confusion and lack of clarity, and like, oh, 902 00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:58,600 Speaker 1: maybe that's what it is. I am always I guess 903 00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:03,080 Speaker 1: just using this lens going in it. I guess I 904 00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:07,280 Speaker 1: never really thought very hard about how like the mythical 905 00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:12,760 Speaker 1: creature she encounters, the fairies, are coded female or they 906 00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:16,040 Speaker 1: use she prone up, but but you don't really know 907 00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:20,200 Speaker 1: you don't, I mean other than their protectors, but like 908 00:58:20,720 --> 00:58:22,880 Speaker 1: you don't really know much about them. But like the 909 00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:25,000 Speaker 1: two characters you get to know in the Labyrinth are 910 00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:29,360 Speaker 1: too kind of deceptive. And then in the in the 911 00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:33,360 Speaker 1: second villain, what do we what? The Paleman's case is 912 00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:38,000 Speaker 1: like terrifying a little more on the nose too, But 913 00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:40,800 Speaker 1: that that also, I think lends nicely in with it, 914 00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:43,600 Speaker 1: like these are things that that she's projecting the pale 915 00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:48,680 Speaker 1: Man is because I hadn't realized how close those scenes were. 916 00:58:48,720 --> 00:58:52,000 Speaker 1: But the big dinner scene it's almost right before the 917 00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:57,600 Speaker 1: Paleman scene, and they're exactly mirrored. So the Paleman's cave 918 00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:02,680 Speaker 1: that is a little more Catholic churchy, yeah, which Gammo 919 00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:05,919 Speaker 1: has said it's supposed to represent the Catholic Yes, yeah, 920 00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:11,520 Speaker 1: that scene is a criticism of that institution. Right. I 921 00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:14,200 Speaker 1: don't know if I even made that connection. Every time 922 00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:17,440 Speaker 1: I watched this movie, I'm just like so dazzled by 923 00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:21,640 Speaker 1: like the visuals, and I'm I'm always like, oh right, 924 00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:25,240 Speaker 1: there's also like symbolism and stuff that I keep forgetting 925 00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:28,160 Speaker 1: to pay attention to. I watched it twice for this 926 00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:30,400 Speaker 1: and both times by the end, I was like fuck, 927 00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:34,480 Speaker 1: I wasn't even like thinking like research, I was just watching. 928 00:59:35,560 --> 00:59:37,960 Speaker 1: I watched at once for fun because I knew I 929 00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:39,840 Speaker 1: wasn't going to be able to focus because it's so 930 00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:41,680 Speaker 1: good and I haven't seen it in years and then 931 00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:44,760 Speaker 1: the second time for analysis and I still didn't pick 932 00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:48,680 Speaker 1: up everything. It's just so rich. But yeah, it's like 933 00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:52,200 Speaker 1: if it's I mean, has has del Toro said explicitly 934 00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:55,080 Speaker 1: that the creature she comes across in the laborate are 935 00:59:55,120 --> 00:59:59,040 Speaker 1: just are her interpretation of what's going on in front 936 00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:02,080 Speaker 1: of her. I don't think he said that, though, I 937 01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:04,600 Speaker 1: do like that, but he did say that, like the 938 01:00:04,600 --> 01:00:08,720 Speaker 1: pale Man is a like reflection of Vidal in a 939 01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:12,200 Speaker 1: like as above so below type of got it? Can 940 01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:17,320 Speaker 1: we talk about Mercedes? So one of the bigger cathartic 941 01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:23,800 Speaker 1: moments or storylines for me was with her, where basically 942 01:00:23,840 --> 01:00:28,600 Speaker 1: what happens is that Vidal underestimates her because she is 943 01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:32,240 Speaker 1: a woman. Because there's that scene where he's about to 944 01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:35,880 Speaker 1: interrogate and torture her after he's figured out that she's 945 01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:40,680 Speaker 1: working with the rebellion, and he sends like the his 946 01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:44,840 Speaker 1: like second in command guy away and the guy's like 947 01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:47,160 Speaker 1: are you sure? Like don't you want me to be here? 948 01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:50,480 Speaker 1: And he's like, for God's sake, she's just a woman, 949 01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:53,680 Speaker 1: you know, Like what what could have possibly happen? She's 950 01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:56,360 Speaker 1: not going to do anything to me, right, and that 951 01:00:56,360 --> 01:01:00,960 Speaker 1: that's like what kills him exactly, yes, and he's like, 952 01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:05,240 Speaker 1: you found my weakness. It's pride. And then two seconds later, 953 01:01:05,360 --> 01:01:09,560 Speaker 1: she stabs him in the back jokers him. I forgot 954 01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:13,400 Speaker 1: that she jokes him. I was like, oh no, don't 955 01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:17,240 Speaker 1: joker him. It also looks like she stabs him in 956 01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:19,760 Speaker 1: the heart, and I'm like, how did he not die 957 01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:23,520 Speaker 1: from that wound? I don't know. He's a super super villain, 958 01:01:24,160 --> 01:01:26,360 Speaker 1: you know. There are certain moments where I'm like, I 959 01:01:27,920 --> 01:01:31,720 Speaker 1: he's he gets injured so many times, he's like restpute 960 01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:35,240 Speaker 1: and grade like number of attempts made on his life 961 01:01:35,240 --> 01:01:39,360 Speaker 1: before he finally dies. Yeah, but so yeah, She's basically 962 01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:41,919 Speaker 1: just like it's because I'm a woman that you never 963 01:01:42,360 --> 01:01:44,720 Speaker 1: suspected me, Like this is how I got away with it. 964 01:01:44,760 --> 01:01:48,520 Speaker 1: I was invisible to you. And then she cuts up 965 01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:52,439 Speaker 1: his face, tells him you won't be the first pig 966 01:01:52,560 --> 01:01:55,840 Speaker 1: I gutt it, and we're just like, whoa go. I 967 01:01:55,880 --> 01:01:58,440 Speaker 1: didn't remember that part of the movie. I guess I 968 01:01:58,440 --> 01:02:00,520 Speaker 1: had just kind of forgotten that since the last time 969 01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:04,000 Speaker 1: I watched it. And maybe it's a little just like 970 01:02:04,560 --> 01:02:06,560 Speaker 1: I don't know, just like kind of surface level, like 971 01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:10,880 Speaker 1: whou feminism go? But it worked on me. I was like, 972 01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:15,040 Speaker 1: hell yeah, Mercy best. But then it's the thing that's 973 01:02:15,040 --> 01:02:18,600 Speaker 1: sad about it is that she she does. I mean, 974 01:02:18,640 --> 01:02:21,160 Speaker 1: I'm glad that she I mean, of any character in 975 01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:24,120 Speaker 1: the whole movie, she well, yeah, she like her getting 976 01:02:24,120 --> 01:02:27,920 Speaker 1: the killing blow on him, and that second scene where 977 01:02:28,480 --> 01:02:31,520 Speaker 1: he's like, you know, trying to do the honorable soldier 978 01:02:31,560 --> 01:02:35,400 Speaker 1: thing and be like, tell my Greg, like what time 979 01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:38,000 Speaker 1: it was when I died and she's like, Greg, won't 980 01:02:38,040 --> 01:02:43,440 Speaker 1: even know your name was Greg, and then she kills 981 01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:46,440 Speaker 1: Like that is like, so what made me sad on 982 01:02:46,520 --> 01:02:52,560 Speaker 1: the second watch for this recording was she says explicitly like, motherfucker, 983 01:02:52,640 --> 01:02:56,760 Speaker 1: don't touch the girl. But then he does, he kills 984 01:02:56,840 --> 01:02:59,840 Speaker 1: he kills her. Yeah, but then he's killed for that, 985 01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:03,920 Speaker 1: but it's like he still kills her. He didn't. I 986 01:03:04,040 --> 01:03:07,800 Speaker 1: just I'm like, why didn't that fascions learn something? Because 987 01:03:07,840 --> 01:03:12,120 Speaker 1: they don't have the capacity to learn many cases, And 988 01:03:12,160 --> 01:03:16,000 Speaker 1: I like that they give that. Delta gives Mercedes an 989 01:03:16,040 --> 01:03:18,840 Speaker 1: in her life as well, because I feel like sometimes 990 01:03:18,880 --> 01:03:21,800 Speaker 1: with like rebel characters, all you know about them is 991 01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:24,480 Speaker 1: like they are fighting for the right thing, and you don't. 992 01:03:25,080 --> 01:03:29,200 Speaker 1: And I mean honestly, like Mercedes being a member of 993 01:03:29,240 --> 01:03:32,280 Speaker 1: the underclass on top of being underestimated as a woman, 994 01:03:32,320 --> 01:03:37,120 Speaker 1: on top of having a huge heart and sense of 995 01:03:37,280 --> 01:03:40,280 Speaker 1: direction is enough. But I like that we also see 996 01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:43,480 Speaker 1: that she is doing this for her family, and she's 997 01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:46,480 Speaker 1: like I like that you kind of get to know 998 01:03:47,040 --> 01:03:51,280 Speaker 1: some people in her world as well, because I always 999 01:03:51,360 --> 01:03:53,440 Speaker 1: kind of forget that. You meet her brother and you 1000 01:03:53,480 --> 01:03:56,160 Speaker 1: get to like get some insight into why she does 1001 01:03:56,200 --> 01:03:59,600 Speaker 1: what she does, um and that they're kind of working together, 1002 01:03:59,720 --> 01:04:01,840 Speaker 1: and I just I like that. I like that you 1003 01:04:01,880 --> 01:04:06,040 Speaker 1: get that background for her. I think, in uh watching it, 1004 01:04:06,400 --> 01:04:10,000 Speaker 1: that scene is awesome, But in also true horror fashion, 1005 01:04:10,520 --> 01:04:14,040 Speaker 1: I find myself asking why didn't you kill him then? 1006 01:04:14,160 --> 01:04:15,880 Speaker 1: Like you had your chance. You could have killed the 1007 01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:20,520 Speaker 1: villain right then and there, especially in reference to gutting 1008 01:04:20,520 --> 01:04:23,720 Speaker 1: a pig, which you get more grotesque with it, you 1009 01:04:23,760 --> 01:04:27,640 Speaker 1: would slice the throat open, thus killing the pig, killing 1010 01:04:27,640 --> 01:04:30,600 Speaker 1: the man. I like, you had it right there, and 1011 01:04:30,600 --> 01:04:32,720 Speaker 1: they're going to try to kill her either way, so 1012 01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:34,880 Speaker 1: she might as well just finish the job. But I 1013 01:04:34,920 --> 01:04:39,000 Speaker 1: think it also those speaks to be like huge gap 1014 01:04:39,480 --> 01:04:42,560 Speaker 1: in capacity for violence, whereas he would have no trouble 1015 01:04:42,720 --> 01:04:46,360 Speaker 1: doing that. But she is like, you know, I'm not 1016 01:04:46,520 --> 01:04:50,280 Speaker 1: an evil person like you are, Like I wouldn't cut 1017 01:04:50,320 --> 01:04:52,040 Speaker 1: someone throat like that. Like, yeah, she's probably like I 1018 01:04:52,080 --> 01:04:55,760 Speaker 1: wouldn't stoop to murder. Maybe, but it's just like when 1019 01:04:55,760 --> 01:04:59,680 Speaker 1: he brutally kills an entire family for nothing. Right, it's 1020 01:04:59,720 --> 01:05:03,160 Speaker 1: like some time like considering the circumstances, I don't know, 1021 01:05:03,400 --> 01:05:07,000 Speaker 1: slid his throat, like he was incapacitated, he was injured 1022 01:05:07,120 --> 01:05:10,240 Speaker 1: enough that she probably could have done it. Yeah, then 1023 01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:12,840 Speaker 1: you get into a whole the whole like spiral of 1024 01:05:13,160 --> 01:05:14,840 Speaker 1: Then that changes the movie. Then you got to write 1025 01:05:14,840 --> 01:05:18,000 Speaker 1: it differently, so like how would failure have survived or 1026 01:05:18,040 --> 01:05:20,280 Speaker 1: how you know, how would this change? And I, you know, 1027 01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:22,320 Speaker 1: I just want to see what does that look like? 1028 01:05:22,880 --> 01:05:26,960 Speaker 1: We need some AlterNet endings. Speaking of spiral, the mo 1029 01:05:27,120 --> 01:05:32,000 Speaker 1: Wanna spiral from Disney's Mohanna is also on the Faun's head. 1030 01:05:32,560 --> 01:05:35,960 Speaker 1: It was like, all this spiral imagery across both movies, 1031 01:05:36,480 --> 01:05:39,920 Speaker 1: there's a conspiracy here. I was like it because I 1032 01:05:40,240 --> 01:05:42,280 Speaker 1: was about to be like and that is the work 1033 01:05:42,280 --> 01:05:45,880 Speaker 1: of the illuminati, And for the next forty five minutes, 1034 01:05:46,360 --> 01:05:49,320 Speaker 1: I would like to take you starting with jay Z 1035 01:05:49,480 --> 01:05:55,280 Speaker 1: and Beyonce at the top. Let's so they're obviously in 1036 01:05:55,360 --> 01:05:58,920 Speaker 1: control of the app Um, yeah, a lot of I 1037 01:05:58,920 --> 01:06:01,800 Speaker 1: mean there's Honestly, the movie is so dense that there 1038 01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:05,320 Speaker 1: were some images and references where I'm like, I know 1039 01:06:05,440 --> 01:06:09,040 Speaker 1: that this probably means something, but but there's only so 1040 01:06:09,120 --> 01:06:13,919 Speaker 1: much time. Um. This was the first viewing of this 1041 01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:19,640 Speaker 1: movie that I saw the captain's constant razor blading of 1042 01:06:19,760 --> 01:06:23,360 Speaker 1: his face to have some significance of like he he 1043 01:06:23,480 --> 01:06:27,880 Speaker 1: has this obsession with control and order, but also and 1044 01:06:27,880 --> 01:06:32,080 Speaker 1: and you know, is down to use violence to achieve 1045 01:06:32,720 --> 01:06:36,440 Speaker 1: kind of arbitrary order of his choosing. So I was like, okay, 1046 01:06:36,760 --> 01:06:39,120 Speaker 1: I get at that time, delto I see you, I 1047 01:06:39,160 --> 01:06:42,000 Speaker 1: see you. I used to just think this guy grows 1048 01:06:42,040 --> 01:06:47,400 Speaker 1: a beard really fast, but I was wrong. Um, it 1049 01:06:47,400 --> 01:06:50,480 Speaker 1: was like, what does what could that mean? He beards fast? 1050 01:06:51,600 --> 01:06:53,760 Speaker 1: I love the moment where like he holds the blade 1051 01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:57,480 Speaker 1: to the mirror and cuts his own throat, because like, yeah, 1052 01:06:57,760 --> 01:06:59,880 Speaker 1: I feel like that's the moment where you've already seen 1053 01:06:59,920 --> 01:07:03,480 Speaker 1: a do all these scene acts, but that's when you're like, oh, 1054 01:07:03,600 --> 01:07:07,760 Speaker 1: he like he loves this, Like he this is what 1055 01:07:07,960 --> 01:07:12,600 Speaker 1: he wants he's just so obsessed with death and dying 1056 01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:15,280 Speaker 1: and wanting to go out in a blaze of glory. 1057 01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:17,680 Speaker 1: And it's there and it's subtle, but I would I 1058 01:07:17,680 --> 01:07:20,520 Speaker 1: do want to know more about the daddy issues. Yeah, okay, 1059 01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:24,280 Speaker 1: so let's talk about this. So this sort of I've 1060 01:07:24,280 --> 01:07:26,920 Speaker 1: found this really interesting because I mean, Jamie, we've also 1061 01:07:26,960 --> 01:07:29,440 Speaker 1: talked a lot about how, like so many movies just 1062 01:07:29,520 --> 01:07:33,320 Speaker 1: kind of boiled down to like a father son relationship 1063 01:07:33,520 --> 01:07:37,080 Speaker 1: or that's always some undertone or overtone and a lot 1064 01:07:37,120 --> 01:07:43,360 Speaker 1: of movies. So here I appreciate that we get an 1065 01:07:43,400 --> 01:07:48,840 Speaker 1: exploration of how that kind of obsessiveness with like my 1066 01:07:48,920 --> 01:07:52,600 Speaker 1: father and my son can be really toxic, and that 1067 01:07:52,760 --> 01:07:56,800 Speaker 1: it can stem from a really kind of morbid place 1068 01:07:56,880 --> 01:07:59,320 Speaker 1: that has nothing to do with familial love and it 1069 01:07:59,360 --> 01:08:04,000 Speaker 1: has everything to do with just like like societal roles 1070 01:08:04,080 --> 01:08:08,120 Speaker 1: and expectations and all of ye. Yeah, so the Dell 1071 01:08:08,320 --> 01:08:12,800 Speaker 1: is obsessed with his father, we come to learn, which 1072 01:08:12,840 --> 01:08:16,559 Speaker 1: we learned because he keeps his broken watch with him, 1073 01:08:16,600 --> 01:08:20,000 Speaker 1: and then we find out the backstory of this watch 1074 01:08:20,240 --> 01:08:25,320 Speaker 1: where his father died heroically in battle and as he 1075 01:08:25,360 --> 01:08:28,400 Speaker 1: was dying, he like smashed the face of the watch 1076 01:08:28,560 --> 01:08:31,040 Speaker 1: so that his son would know the exact time he died, 1077 01:08:31,120 --> 01:08:34,160 Speaker 1: because that's how a brave man dies, according to this, 1078 01:08:34,240 --> 01:08:36,120 Speaker 1: Because like, this is my first time hearing this, but 1079 01:08:36,160 --> 01:08:39,400 Speaker 1: I'll I'll go with him. That's also such an an 1080 01:08:39,400 --> 01:08:41,559 Speaker 1: odd thing for you to want your kids, like I 1081 01:08:41,600 --> 01:08:44,240 Speaker 1: want him to know that time. Not that I loved 1082 01:08:44,320 --> 01:08:48,160 Speaker 1: him that, but the time when its like this time 1083 01:08:48,240 --> 01:08:51,599 Speaker 1: has actually been very traumatizing for him to know all 1084 01:08:51,600 --> 01:08:55,280 Speaker 1: this time. And here's something I don't get, so maybe 1085 01:08:55,640 --> 01:08:58,720 Speaker 1: you can help me understand this. But so we find 1086 01:08:58,720 --> 01:09:02,280 Speaker 1: out this backstory and then the guy at Dinners like Fidel, 1087 01:09:02,439 --> 01:09:05,080 Speaker 1: is that true? And he's like, no, that's nonsense. My 1088 01:09:05,160 --> 01:09:08,040 Speaker 1: father didn't even own a watch, even though we've seen 1089 01:09:08,280 --> 01:09:11,840 Speaker 1: said watch with the smashed face of it many times 1090 01:09:11,880 --> 01:09:15,400 Speaker 1: because he's constantly looking at it and like fiddling with it. 1091 01:09:15,439 --> 01:09:18,479 Speaker 1: So I was confused as to why he would deny 1092 01:09:18,600 --> 01:09:21,840 Speaker 1: that same that. That's kind of why it made it 1093 01:09:21,880 --> 01:09:24,640 Speaker 1: so curious to me, because he's so obviously obsessed with it. 1094 01:09:24,680 --> 01:09:27,720 Speaker 1: But then why would he deny it? Yeah, I don't 1095 01:09:27,760 --> 01:09:29,920 Speaker 1: know if it was more of his like pride or 1096 01:09:29,920 --> 01:09:33,760 Speaker 1: he's like, I'm I don't have feelings I don't keep 1097 01:09:33,800 --> 01:09:36,479 Speaker 1: my daddy's broken watch with me, and I don't put 1098 01:09:36,520 --> 01:09:40,320 Speaker 1: it under my polluminate sleep. Like I kind of it 1099 01:09:40,400 --> 01:09:44,160 Speaker 1: was easy for me to read that as he was lying, 1100 01:09:44,280 --> 01:09:47,559 Speaker 1: because otherwise it does kind of muddle that. But yeah, 1101 01:09:47,600 --> 01:09:49,200 Speaker 1: I was a little confused about that as well. But 1102 01:09:49,240 --> 01:09:51,920 Speaker 1: why would he lie? I think it has to do 1103 01:09:52,120 --> 01:09:54,799 Speaker 1: somewhat with a like having to live under that shadow, 1104 01:09:54,840 --> 01:09:57,800 Speaker 1: because the officer was just like your father was such 1105 01:09:57,800 --> 01:10:02,120 Speaker 1: an incredible soldier undertone that you'll never be able to 1106 01:10:02,200 --> 01:10:05,760 Speaker 1: live up to. Uh, And so he's like fuck him. 1107 01:10:05,760 --> 01:10:08,320 Speaker 1: That's you know, you didn't have a watch him. But 1108 01:10:09,400 --> 01:10:12,880 Speaker 1: one of the other like visual things that Germo has 1109 01:10:13,120 --> 01:10:16,400 Speaker 1: noted that I don't think I ever would have understood 1110 01:10:16,439 --> 01:10:21,240 Speaker 1: otherwise was that, uh, the entire movie lives alone in 1111 01:10:21,400 --> 01:10:23,759 Speaker 1: what I think is the mill or whatever that giant 1112 01:10:23,840 --> 01:10:29,559 Speaker 1: room is. But that giant mill symbolizes a giant broken 1113 01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:32,680 Speaker 1: clock because the background is all cogs and machines that 1114 01:10:32,720 --> 01:10:36,000 Speaker 1: are not moving. So he is so obsessed. He's literally, 1115 01:10:36,160 --> 01:10:39,040 Speaker 1: you know, cocooned himself inside of a broken clock. That's 1116 01:10:39,040 --> 01:10:42,200 Speaker 1: all he lives for is smashing that clock and to die. Yes, 1117 01:10:42,320 --> 01:10:44,760 Speaker 1: I read that too. Yeah, that I was like, well, 1118 01:10:44,840 --> 01:10:47,800 Speaker 1: I guess I have to watch the movie again. Fine. Um, 1119 01:10:47,880 --> 01:10:50,160 Speaker 1: what I found funny about this whole watch thing is 1120 01:10:50,240 --> 01:10:53,240 Speaker 1: it basically the same exact thing happens in pulp fiction 1121 01:10:53,400 --> 01:10:57,240 Speaker 1: when Christopher Walkin comes in and he's like, hey, Bruce 1122 01:10:57,280 --> 01:11:00,640 Speaker 1: Willis character as a kid, be your daddy kept this 1123 01:11:00,840 --> 01:11:03,760 Speaker 1: watch up his butthole for two years so that I 1124 01:11:03,760 --> 01:11:06,439 Speaker 1: couldn't then give it to you. And it's like, Okay, 1125 01:11:07,720 --> 01:11:10,920 Speaker 1: I don't know, but but like just a little bit 1126 01:11:10,920 --> 01:11:15,240 Speaker 1: more about this kind of father's son obsession, saying where 1127 01:11:15,960 --> 01:11:19,360 Speaker 1: then we learn before the baby is before baby Greg 1128 01:11:19,400 --> 01:11:22,719 Speaker 1: is born, they don't know the sex of the baby, 1129 01:11:22,800 --> 01:11:26,559 Speaker 1: but he just keeps assuming it's a boy, you know, 1130 01:11:26,640 --> 01:11:30,760 Speaker 1: biologically male. I'm like annoyed that he was right about that, 1131 01:11:30,880 --> 01:11:34,920 Speaker 1: But it is a Greg everyone everyone, I mean, so 1132 01:11:35,040 --> 01:11:39,760 Speaker 1: does um Carmen and uh Failia also takes this at 1133 01:11:39,880 --> 01:11:42,479 Speaker 1: face value as well, So I yeah, it would be 1134 01:11:42,520 --> 01:11:44,840 Speaker 1: interesting if they turned out to not be right. But um, 1135 01:11:44,920 --> 01:11:48,280 Speaker 1: I guess it it serves the story that it is 1136 01:11:49,040 --> 01:11:52,400 Speaker 1: like a male baby because then he can continue to 1137 01:11:52,760 --> 01:11:54,639 Speaker 1: be obsessed with it. And it does make that moment 1138 01:11:54,680 --> 01:11:58,800 Speaker 1: at the end with like you mentioned, Jamie, where Mercedes 1139 01:11:58,880 --> 01:12:03,120 Speaker 1: is like, you're son, isn't even gonna know your name? Bang, 1140 01:12:03,280 --> 01:12:07,880 Speaker 1: You're dead Greg SRG. Yeah, and then you would you 1141 01:12:07,880 --> 01:12:12,679 Speaker 1: would think best case scenario. And again, because we're talking 1142 01:12:12,760 --> 01:12:15,320 Speaker 1: about such a violent period of time, we don't know, 1143 01:12:15,640 --> 01:12:18,920 Speaker 1: but ideally baby Greg will be brought up by by 1144 01:12:19,000 --> 01:12:22,000 Speaker 1: rebels and would be kind of you know, that makes 1145 01:12:22,080 --> 01:12:24,960 Speaker 1: that's another way in which Ophelia's sacrifice would not have 1146 01:12:25,000 --> 01:12:29,320 Speaker 1: been in vain. That she is inadvertently getting, you know, 1147 01:12:29,720 --> 01:12:36,320 Speaker 1: her little brother a better life, um, at least spiritually 1148 01:12:36,560 --> 01:12:38,720 Speaker 1: and probably in every way than he would have had 1149 01:12:38,760 --> 01:12:42,040 Speaker 1: if he had stayed with the Captain. Yes, I had 1150 01:12:42,080 --> 01:12:47,719 Speaker 1: a quick thing I wanted to address here that um 1151 01:12:47,920 --> 01:12:50,400 Speaker 1: that I mean, it's it's kind of service, but I 1152 01:12:50,439 --> 01:12:53,760 Speaker 1: just wanted to, I guess, just even reference it because 1153 01:12:53,760 --> 01:12:57,840 Speaker 1: it seems like del Toro is kind of unambiguously referencing 1154 01:12:57,960 --> 01:13:01,519 Speaker 1: Alice in Wonderland a few different times in this um, 1155 01:13:01,560 --> 01:13:05,880 Speaker 1: like most prominently with the literal dress, which she isn't 1156 01:13:06,400 --> 01:13:09,679 Speaker 1: you know, very fond of. But there it is of 1157 01:13:09,800 --> 01:13:14,800 Speaker 1: this story that is usually told and written by men, 1158 01:13:15,520 --> 01:13:23,160 Speaker 1: that features a young girl going into a tunnel and 1159 01:13:21,760 --> 01:13:26,040 Speaker 1: learning going into a floor vagina, learning a thing or 1160 01:13:26,040 --> 01:13:28,920 Speaker 1: two about a sing or two, and then coming out 1161 01:13:28,920 --> 01:13:30,439 Speaker 1: on the other side in one way. So I just 1162 01:13:30,439 --> 01:13:33,960 Speaker 1: wanted to reference um the other movies, some of which 1163 01:13:33,960 --> 01:13:37,560 Speaker 1: we've covered, that take the same tax. So obviously it 1164 01:13:37,600 --> 01:13:40,360 Speaker 1: seems like the at least the popular genesis of it 1165 01:13:40,560 --> 01:13:44,160 Speaker 1: is Alice in Wonderland, where a young girl falls into 1166 01:13:44,200 --> 01:13:48,040 Speaker 1: a floor of vagina and meets a bunch of men 1167 01:13:48,160 --> 01:13:52,439 Speaker 1: that don't like her and and also in that case 1168 01:13:53,160 --> 01:13:55,200 Speaker 1: a mean queen, and then you know, she comes out. 1169 01:13:55,400 --> 01:14:00,559 Speaker 1: We've covered Coraline. That is another another a vagina that 1170 01:14:00,600 --> 01:14:03,479 Speaker 1: pops up, swallows her up. She learns a lot about her, 1171 01:14:03,720 --> 01:14:07,160 Speaker 1: her role in the world, and her feelings about her parents. 1172 01:14:07,360 --> 01:14:11,320 Speaker 1: She's popped out of the vagina in the world. This 1173 01:14:11,400 --> 01:14:13,960 Speaker 1: also happens in Spirited Away, a movie. I have not 1174 01:14:14,000 --> 01:14:15,920 Speaker 1: seen it in many years, so I can't speak to 1175 01:14:15,960 --> 01:14:19,800 Speaker 1: the specifics of it, but it's much the same. Uh. 1176 01:14:20,000 --> 01:14:25,080 Speaker 1: Young girl tumbles into a natural vagina, pops out changed um, 1177 01:14:25,200 --> 01:14:28,320 Speaker 1: and then pans labyrinth where this is This is the 1178 01:14:28,920 --> 01:14:32,479 Speaker 1: floor of vagina approach where she goes down a series 1179 01:14:32,520 --> 01:14:35,760 Speaker 1: of tunnels, meets a series of foes, and then I mean, 1180 01:14:35,800 --> 01:14:39,400 Speaker 1: I think the most tragic example where she doesn't survived 1181 01:14:39,600 --> 01:14:42,400 Speaker 1: in the traditional sense, but her memory survives, and she 1182 01:14:42,479 --> 01:14:45,679 Speaker 1: kind of graduates into she's not even going to move 1183 01:14:45,720 --> 01:14:47,280 Speaker 1: out of the floor of vagina, She's just going to 1184 01:14:47,360 --> 01:14:54,719 Speaker 1: live there. I also wanted to uh, back up my 1185 01:14:54,720 --> 01:14:59,439 Speaker 1: my Little Journey to Womanhood metaphord, not because not just 1186 01:14:59,520 --> 01:15:02,960 Speaker 1: because they're is such a huge precedent for it in 1187 01:15:03,800 --> 01:15:07,799 Speaker 1: fiction from male a tours that are generally very very loved. 1188 01:15:07,920 --> 01:15:10,080 Speaker 1: So again, I'm not like dumping on it, but it 1189 01:15:10,200 --> 01:15:14,360 Speaker 1: is a thing I did a little bit of research on, 1190 01:15:14,600 --> 01:15:19,519 Speaker 1: like the Fun and Pan, The fun and and the like. 1191 01:15:19,560 --> 01:15:23,760 Speaker 1: The mythological creature of Pan traditionally is like a very 1192 01:15:23,800 --> 01:15:28,960 Speaker 1: sexual character. So if we're reading that, you know, Pan 1193 01:15:29,080 --> 01:15:34,600 Speaker 1: is presenting himself and his little goat legs to to Ophelia, 1194 01:15:35,280 --> 01:15:38,560 Speaker 1: saying a series of things to her that are very confusing, 1195 01:15:38,840 --> 01:15:41,479 Speaker 1: giving her a bunch of what seems to her like 1196 01:15:41,680 --> 01:15:44,560 Speaker 1: random goals that she hasn't fully understand. I feel like 1197 01:15:44,600 --> 01:15:47,040 Speaker 1: that does lend itself to the read of like she 1198 01:15:47,280 --> 01:15:51,400 Speaker 1: is on this journey towards figuring out what womanhood is 1199 01:15:51,439 --> 01:15:54,160 Speaker 1: to her, because literally, the sex God shows up and 1200 01:15:54,200 --> 01:15:55,680 Speaker 1: she was like, I don't know what this guy is 1201 01:15:55,720 --> 01:16:02,280 Speaker 1: talking about because she's ted. So that's my little rant 1202 01:16:02,360 --> 01:16:05,960 Speaker 1: on girls and holes. We love to toss a girl 1203 01:16:06,000 --> 01:16:08,439 Speaker 1: into a hole in popular culture. We just love it. 1204 01:16:08,800 --> 01:16:12,759 Speaker 1: I was worried about that too, because it's called pans 1205 01:16:12,800 --> 01:16:16,000 Speaker 1: labyrinth in the English translation of the title, but not 1206 01:16:16,240 --> 01:16:21,240 Speaker 1: in the Spanish one. It just translates to the labyrinth 1207 01:16:21,439 --> 01:16:24,639 Speaker 1: of the fawn or the fawn's labyrinth. But I guess 1208 01:16:24,680 --> 01:16:30,360 Speaker 1: because Pan was a more recognizable thing than a fawn, 1209 01:16:30,680 --> 01:16:32,680 Speaker 1: which for me that wasn't true. I was like, I 1210 01:16:32,680 --> 01:16:35,160 Speaker 1: don't know what Pan. I had to get certainly misled 1211 01:16:35,240 --> 01:16:40,080 Speaker 1: some of us. Yeah, it's not Peter Pan, so what 1212 01:16:40,240 --> 01:16:45,599 Speaker 1: the hell? Um? Yeah, so what's the point? Unclear? But 1213 01:16:46,000 --> 01:16:50,520 Speaker 1: del Toro has said that even though this English translation 1214 01:16:50,560 --> 01:16:54,000 Speaker 1: of the title identifies the fawn as Pan, that the 1215 01:16:54,040 --> 01:16:58,719 Speaker 1: fon is not Pan in the movie, and has said quote, 1216 01:16:58,760 --> 01:17:02,719 Speaker 1: if he was Pan, the girl would be in deep ship. Um, 1217 01:17:02,760 --> 01:17:06,479 Speaker 1: and its very clearly stated that it is not. But 1218 01:17:06,560 --> 01:17:10,200 Speaker 1: nonetheless the fun is also closely. Faun is still deceptive 1219 01:17:10,600 --> 01:17:15,559 Speaker 1: and there's some sex stuff with Yeah, and then I 1220 01:17:15,640 --> 01:17:19,040 Speaker 1: but then I also found Aristotle. I would love your 1221 01:17:19,080 --> 01:17:22,240 Speaker 1: take on this if you look at the I mean, 1222 01:17:22,360 --> 01:17:25,479 Speaker 1: aside from the fact that the poster is not about 1223 01:17:25,560 --> 01:17:29,120 Speaker 1: Peter pan Um, every poster I was able to find 1224 01:17:29,120 --> 01:17:31,680 Speaker 1: for this movie is a gaping vagina and there's just 1225 01:17:31,760 --> 01:17:35,519 Speaker 1: no way around it. Like the marketing of this movie 1226 01:17:36,040 --> 01:17:41,240 Speaker 1: was a lot of pussy. But I was able to 1227 01:17:41,240 --> 01:17:44,679 Speaker 1: find a quote from del Toro that kind of pushes 1228 01:17:44,960 --> 01:17:48,160 Speaker 1: against that reading. I guess it just is. Really this 1229 01:17:48,240 --> 01:17:50,920 Speaker 1: is a case study in like I mean, he's saying 1230 01:17:50,960 --> 01:17:54,799 Speaker 1: it's not there, but I can't stop seeing it. Where 1231 01:17:55,680 --> 01:17:59,720 Speaker 1: he was asked in an interview with Filter mag the 1232 01:18:00,040 --> 01:18:03,040 Speaker 1: Russian was um. So often in fairytale analysis, there's a 1233 01:18:03,080 --> 01:18:04,920 Speaker 1: tendency to read any story of a young girl as 1234 01:18:04,920 --> 01:18:07,800 Speaker 1: a psycho sexual parable. But this film specifically doesn't go 1235 01:18:07,920 --> 01:18:11,639 Speaker 1: that way, Thoughts and del Toro says it doesn't at all. 1236 01:18:11,680 --> 01:18:14,960 Speaker 1: I consciously avoided it, not out of prudishness, but out 1237 01:18:14,960 --> 01:18:17,080 Speaker 1: of the same reason why I tried to avoid the 1238 01:18:17,120 --> 01:18:21,200 Speaker 1: myth of vampire vampireism in Chronos. Blah blah blah blah blah. 1239 01:18:21,320 --> 01:18:24,840 Speaker 1: Up about Chronos in Pan's Labyrinth, I knew the psycho 1240 01:18:24,880 --> 01:18:28,000 Speaker 1: sexual angle was really tired. It felt very nineteen eighties 1241 01:18:28,040 --> 01:18:29,599 Speaker 1: for me, and I felt this was a movie about 1242 01:18:29,600 --> 01:18:31,240 Speaker 1: a girl who was on the threshold of making a 1243 01:18:31,360 --> 01:18:33,600 Speaker 1: choice where she could cease to be a girl. But 1244 01:18:33,640 --> 01:18:37,240 Speaker 1: it was not about sexual identity, which I don't even 1245 01:18:37,360 --> 01:18:40,320 Speaker 1: think pushes back against how I feel that much, because 1246 01:18:40,320 --> 01:18:43,479 Speaker 1: it doesn't seem like a sexual identity thing as much 1247 01:18:43,479 --> 01:18:47,519 Speaker 1: as it is of like figuring out how you can 1248 01:18:48,120 --> 01:18:52,439 Speaker 1: survive as a woman in this world. I don't know, Yeah, 1249 01:18:52,439 --> 01:18:57,320 Speaker 1: because there's nothing inherently sexual in any of this. It's 1250 01:18:57,320 --> 01:19:01,639 Speaker 1: all very much about it does. But that's also wild 1251 01:19:01,680 --> 01:19:05,200 Speaker 1: hymn to say, because everything is a uterus in this movie. 1252 01:19:05,240 --> 01:19:11,160 Speaker 1: Like I have Bragg, I have the Criterion Blue ray 1253 01:19:11,200 --> 01:19:15,960 Speaker 1: that is literally a vagina Aristotle. Yes, I did not 1254 01:19:16,200 --> 01:19:19,040 Speaker 1: even see that until, like, until you brought it up. Now, 1255 01:19:19,040 --> 01:19:24,160 Speaker 1: I mean I recognize the like it's a beautiful artwork 1256 01:19:24,160 --> 01:19:27,080 Speaker 1: by Becky Clunan. I want. I wanted the poster so bad. 1257 01:19:27,080 --> 01:19:30,320 Speaker 1: Of course, it's sold out in seconds, but it's it's 1258 01:19:30,360 --> 01:19:34,080 Speaker 1: similar as the regular poster where it's kind of the tree, 1259 01:19:34,200 --> 01:19:36,720 Speaker 1: but it's also kind of the fawn's head. It all 1260 01:19:36,800 --> 01:19:40,240 Speaker 1: looks like a uterus, but that is she is coming 1261 01:19:40,280 --> 01:19:44,519 Speaker 1: out of a vagina, like the you know, the it's 1262 01:19:44,640 --> 01:19:47,479 Speaker 1: right there. It scrambles my brand. I don't think that 1263 01:19:47,520 --> 01:19:50,559 Speaker 1: there's anything wrong with this, but it is always weird 1264 01:19:50,600 --> 01:19:53,360 Speaker 1: to me when a male filmmaker is like, it's not 1265 01:19:53,439 --> 01:19:55,400 Speaker 1: that I'm like, but do you are you looking at 1266 01:19:55,400 --> 01:19:58,320 Speaker 1: it like I'm looking at it Like it's just I 1267 01:19:58,320 --> 01:20:01,640 Speaker 1: don't know. It is definitely an interpretation thing, but and 1268 01:20:01,680 --> 01:20:05,320 Speaker 1: it also is a set design thing. But because we 1269 01:20:05,400 --> 01:20:08,280 Speaker 1: know del Toro is so involved in the process, it's 1270 01:20:08,320 --> 01:20:10,640 Speaker 1: kind of not like, well, he just showed up and 1271 01:20:10,680 --> 01:20:13,000 Speaker 1: there were all these vaginas in the floor, like he 1272 01:20:14,320 --> 01:20:16,720 Speaker 1: I don't know. And I feel like this also kind 1273 01:20:16,720 --> 01:20:19,200 Speaker 1: of goes back to the essay that I mentioned initially 1274 01:20:19,200 --> 01:20:22,000 Speaker 1: that he's trying to influence your view of it with 1275 01:20:22,160 --> 01:20:25,559 Speaker 1: what his intention is, but that doesn't mean that that's 1276 01:20:25,560 --> 01:20:29,640 Speaker 1: still not there because he's still a man raised in 1277 01:20:29,720 --> 01:20:33,519 Speaker 1: a extremely patriarchal society, so that of course he has 1278 01:20:33,800 --> 01:20:37,519 Speaker 1: major blind spots that he just can't see. I think 1279 01:20:37,560 --> 01:20:39,760 Speaker 1: and we all kind of have that. We all have 1280 01:20:39,800 --> 01:20:43,160 Speaker 1: major blind spot you just cannot see because you don't 1281 01:20:43,160 --> 01:20:45,559 Speaker 1: know that they're there. That's why I really appreciated this 1282 01:20:45,720 --> 01:20:48,519 Speaker 1: critical essay of him because you know, it does kind 1283 01:20:48,560 --> 01:20:52,280 Speaker 1: of make me appreciate him more while also recognizing, you know, 1284 01:20:52,720 --> 01:20:55,840 Speaker 1: not perfect. I love I love the hell out of 1285 01:20:55,880 --> 01:21:00,599 Speaker 1: this movie. There's and there is a vagina on every post, 1286 01:21:01,120 --> 01:21:03,679 Speaker 1: and both of those things can be true. Well, I'm 1287 01:21:03,680 --> 01:21:09,280 Speaker 1: also disturbed at this trend of it being I mean, 1288 01:21:09,920 --> 01:21:12,640 Speaker 1: the suggestion that it is is it can there be 1289 01:21:12,720 --> 01:21:15,880 Speaker 1: a psycho sexual interpretation of this movie about a ten 1290 01:21:15,960 --> 01:21:18,479 Speaker 1: year old girl? Like why is that even entering the 1291 01:21:18,520 --> 01:21:22,439 Speaker 1: conversation for like the film critics and and like the 1292 01:21:22,479 --> 01:21:24,439 Speaker 1: filmmakers who are like, yeah, let me put all this 1293 01:21:24,640 --> 01:21:29,120 Speaker 1: vagina imagery into a movie about a ten year old, 1294 01:21:29,200 --> 01:21:33,080 Speaker 1: Like I don't I hate it? I agree, but I 1295 01:21:33,120 --> 01:21:35,920 Speaker 1: also feel like it's a valid question to ask because 1296 01:21:35,920 --> 01:21:39,360 Speaker 1: it does happen. It is the right It's yeah, it's 1297 01:21:39,360 --> 01:21:42,280 Speaker 1: not so much the questioning of it, but it's more like, 1298 01:21:43,120 --> 01:21:47,360 Speaker 1: why is this imagery that we that we would see 1299 01:21:47,479 --> 01:21:50,320 Speaker 1: in a movie about a ten year old girl who 1300 01:21:50,400 --> 01:21:53,400 Speaker 1: is like about to start to come of age kind 1301 01:21:53,400 --> 01:21:57,679 Speaker 1: of thing? You know, Like it just it feels weird. 1302 01:21:58,040 --> 01:22:01,520 Speaker 1: It's uncomfortact that it even has to enter the conversation. 1303 01:22:02,400 --> 01:22:04,360 Speaker 1: That's what I mean. I feel like I would appreciate 1304 01:22:04,400 --> 01:22:06,960 Speaker 1: it more if he was more directing. I was like, yes, 1305 01:22:07,240 --> 01:22:10,160 Speaker 1: it's about becoming a woman. She's never sexualized, we don't, 1306 01:22:10,320 --> 01:22:12,720 Speaker 1: you know, sex has never brought up, but you know, 1307 01:22:12,760 --> 01:22:15,080 Speaker 1: people grow up. It hasn't happened, right, Yeah, And I 1308 01:22:15,120 --> 01:22:17,200 Speaker 1: think I would appreciate that way more than like no, no, 1309 01:22:17,200 --> 01:22:19,280 Speaker 1: no, no no, that's not it. It seems like a little yeah, 1310 01:22:19,280 --> 01:22:21,840 Speaker 1: this answer it. I had to read it like a 1311 01:22:21,880 --> 01:22:24,120 Speaker 1: few different times because it was like, I feel like 1312 01:22:24,200 --> 01:22:28,240 Speaker 1: that is almost that conversation that's telling because it's conflating 1313 01:22:28,800 --> 01:22:32,439 Speaker 1: coming of age with sex, which is, you know, a 1314 01:22:32,600 --> 01:22:35,639 Speaker 1: part of coming of age is navigating your feelings around sex. 1315 01:22:35,680 --> 01:22:39,240 Speaker 1: But it's not the only thing that happens. Come of age, 1316 01:22:39,439 --> 01:22:42,520 Speaker 1: so much happens. But the idea that like you're reducing 1317 01:22:42,600 --> 01:22:46,479 Speaker 1: coming of age to like when losing your get your 1318 01:22:46,760 --> 01:22:49,599 Speaker 1: period or white like having sex for the first time, 1319 01:22:49,880 --> 01:22:51,880 Speaker 1: it's and it's also that's also like obviously a very 1320 01:22:51,920 --> 01:22:55,640 Speaker 1: like sis normative thing where it's like, well, you're you know, 1321 01:22:55,840 --> 01:22:58,120 Speaker 1: you're a woman as soon as you get your period, 1322 01:22:58,280 --> 01:23:01,840 Speaker 1: and it's like no. I went back to school the 1323 01:23:01,880 --> 01:23:04,000 Speaker 1: next day and I didn't know what kind of lingas 1324 01:23:04,080 --> 01:23:06,920 Speaker 1: was for five years. Still I would say that so 1325 01:23:07,040 --> 01:23:09,840 Speaker 1: little of my life had changed other than we I 1326 01:23:09,840 --> 01:23:11,360 Speaker 1: feel like we've talked about this. I just was like, 1327 01:23:11,400 --> 01:23:13,679 Speaker 1: I think I shipped myself, and my mom's like you didn't, 1328 01:23:13,800 --> 01:23:17,280 Speaker 1: and I was like, all right, moving on, Yeah, I guess. 1329 01:23:17,320 --> 01:23:19,040 Speaker 1: I mean, if there is going to be so much 1330 01:23:19,640 --> 01:23:24,720 Speaker 1: vagina and uterus imagery, and I would rather there be 1331 01:23:24,840 --> 01:23:29,120 Speaker 1: injury vaginal blood, like for a movie that doesn't really 1332 01:23:29,160 --> 01:23:32,960 Speaker 1: deal in sex very much, I feel like it's disingenuous 1333 01:23:33,040 --> 01:23:36,280 Speaker 1: to imply, like I mean on his end of like 1334 01:23:36,720 --> 01:23:38,120 Speaker 1: it doesn't have a lot to do with sex, but 1335 01:23:38,160 --> 01:23:40,960 Speaker 1: it does have a lot to do with like women's 1336 01:23:41,200 --> 01:23:43,880 Speaker 1: bodies or like sis women in a in a way 1337 01:23:43,880 --> 01:23:46,880 Speaker 1: that isn't exploitative, but it is very present. I don't know, 1338 01:23:46,920 --> 01:23:50,519 Speaker 1: it's confusing to talk about. And where I come down 1339 01:23:50,520 --> 01:23:52,679 Speaker 1: on the whole thing is like, if you're gonna throw 1340 01:23:52,720 --> 01:23:56,280 Speaker 1: a bunch of all this imagery into your movie, then 1341 01:23:56,400 --> 01:23:59,599 Speaker 1: make the protagonist an adult woman and not a ten 1342 01:23:59,680 --> 01:24:02,400 Speaker 1: year old girl, I guess. And then also like, what 1343 01:24:02,560 --> 01:24:07,599 Speaker 1: does assist man know about a maturing female body? And 1344 01:24:07,680 --> 01:24:10,920 Speaker 1: why is there that obsession with it? Called bo burn 1345 01:24:11,000 --> 01:24:14,920 Speaker 1: him off? Let's get Bo Burnham on the horn. Um, 1346 01:24:14,920 --> 01:24:16,559 Speaker 1: And as much as I love eighth grade and as 1347 01:24:16,640 --> 01:24:18,479 Speaker 1: much as I love pianez La Brentha, it is it 1348 01:24:18,520 --> 01:24:21,639 Speaker 1: really did makes you question, like why this is such 1349 01:24:21,640 --> 01:24:25,360 Speaker 1: a prevalent Well, we're really like why it is such 1350 01:24:25,400 --> 01:24:28,880 Speaker 1: a prevalent storytell like why is it such a pervasive 1351 01:24:29,000 --> 01:24:32,559 Speaker 1: cultural story for a man to write a story about 1352 01:24:32,560 --> 01:24:35,200 Speaker 1: a little girl falling into a vagina and learning something? 1353 01:24:35,840 --> 01:24:40,759 Speaker 1: And why why is it always assist man telling that story? 1354 01:24:41,000 --> 01:24:43,840 Speaker 1: I just I mean again, I love this movie to death, 1355 01:24:43,880 --> 01:24:47,120 Speaker 1: but it's it's like worth bringing up and I feel 1356 01:24:47,160 --> 01:24:49,200 Speaker 1: like we had not as in death, but like a 1357 01:24:49,240 --> 01:24:52,120 Speaker 1: similar ish conversation in Coraline of like why is Neil 1358 01:24:52,160 --> 01:24:54,639 Speaker 1: Gaiman just like tossing this little girl into a vagina 1359 01:24:54,720 --> 01:24:57,600 Speaker 1: to learn a lesson? Why is it? What? It just? 1360 01:24:57,720 --> 01:25:01,720 Speaker 1: It just happens a lot. So the moral of the 1361 01:25:01,760 --> 01:25:06,200 Speaker 1: story is I would appreciate more coming of age stories 1362 01:25:06,760 --> 01:25:13,160 Speaker 1: for little girls and more heroes journey narratives about girls 1363 01:25:13,160 --> 01:25:17,599 Speaker 1: and women that are actually written and made by women. 1364 01:25:18,200 --> 01:25:23,200 Speaker 1: But that said, this movie fucking rock. I wouldn't change 1365 01:25:23,240 --> 01:25:29,200 Speaker 1: a thing. And it's it's complicated, Okay, this movie is 1366 01:25:29,200 --> 01:25:34,080 Speaker 1: the greatest and it's also weird, but that's like, that's 1367 01:25:34,080 --> 01:25:39,840 Speaker 1: the beauty there. It is King of the weirdos. True, Yeah, 1368 01:25:40,040 --> 01:25:43,680 Speaker 1: he's man. I also realized like halfway through that we 1369 01:25:43,960 --> 01:25:46,519 Speaker 1: we acknowledged the shirt that I'm wearing, But did it 1370 01:25:46,720 --> 01:25:49,400 Speaker 1: specifically say that it's a shirt that you got me 1371 01:25:49,439 --> 01:25:54,160 Speaker 1: that says directed by Gamma de Toro. Yes, send us 1372 01:25:54,160 --> 01:25:57,400 Speaker 1: a picture of yourself wearing it, if you would, Aristotle, 1373 01:25:57,479 --> 01:25:59,640 Speaker 1: and then we'll post it on our Instagram. We'll do, 1374 01:25:59,680 --> 01:26:02,760 Speaker 1: We'll do. You have a favorite del Toro movie at 1375 01:26:02,800 --> 01:26:07,160 Speaker 1: present slash has it ever changed? I do, and it 1376 01:26:07,240 --> 01:26:10,040 Speaker 1: was gonna be something. I don't know if we're wrapping now, 1377 01:26:10,120 --> 01:26:14,120 Speaker 1: because I was going to recommend um Hans Labyrinth objectively 1378 01:26:14,160 --> 01:26:19,360 Speaker 1: good film, Oscar winning, beautiful, gorgeous movie. The Devil's Backbone 1379 01:26:19,920 --> 01:26:22,680 Speaker 1: is his other I believe he has three movies in 1380 01:26:22,720 --> 01:26:26,519 Speaker 1: Spanish objectively his best movies. The other ones are great 1381 01:26:26,560 --> 01:26:29,559 Speaker 1: and fun, but those are like truly the best, most meaningful, 1382 01:26:29,600 --> 01:26:32,040 Speaker 1: I guess, except for Coronasconos is good, but it's a 1383 01:26:32,040 --> 01:26:36,679 Speaker 1: little more cool than meaningful. But Devil's Backbone my favorite movie. 1384 01:26:37,160 --> 01:26:39,320 Speaker 1: I have a tattoo right here on my arm of 1385 01:26:39,600 --> 01:26:44,400 Speaker 1: once again then, but the Criterion collection cover, and that's 1386 01:26:44,439 --> 01:26:47,360 Speaker 1: kind of the other side of Little Boys in a 1387 01:26:47,400 --> 01:26:51,320 Speaker 1: Boy's Home during the Spanish War hands his post. This 1388 01:26:51,400 --> 01:26:54,880 Speaker 1: is during and I read the Delta says that pans 1389 01:26:54,960 --> 01:26:58,479 Speaker 1: Obyrinth is the sort of like spiritual or thematic sequel 1390 01:26:58,600 --> 01:27:02,519 Speaker 1: to The Devil Backbone, even though they're not necessarily like 1391 01:27:02,960 --> 01:27:09,120 Speaker 1: narratively sequels. They're like kind of spiritually companion films in 1392 01:27:09,160 --> 01:27:11,880 Speaker 1: the sense that they both take place during the Spanish War. 1393 01:27:11,960 --> 01:27:15,080 Speaker 1: But there's also I like to think that he has 1394 01:27:15,120 --> 01:27:18,920 Speaker 1: created a universe that he hasn't touched since of you know, 1395 01:27:19,280 --> 01:27:24,719 Speaker 1: a very dark, sad, grim world with a lighter side 1396 01:27:25,280 --> 01:27:28,120 Speaker 1: of the things that we consider dark, Like you know, 1397 01:27:28,200 --> 01:27:32,439 Speaker 1: the beautiful note always a Pan's Labyrinth is like, there's 1398 01:27:32,479 --> 01:27:35,439 Speaker 1: all these scary things happening in the fantasy world, but 1399 01:27:35,680 --> 01:27:38,439 Speaker 1: none of them are as dark or as horrifying. Is 1400 01:27:38,479 --> 01:27:42,120 Speaker 1: what's happening in our world that actually happened, Like, none 1401 01:27:42,120 --> 01:27:43,599 Speaker 1: of it is as evil as that. And it's kind 1402 01:27:43,600 --> 01:27:46,519 Speaker 1: of the same thing with Devil's Backbone, where it's a 1403 01:27:46,560 --> 01:27:50,439 Speaker 1: ghost story, but the ghost isn't the problem. It's the 1404 01:27:50,520 --> 01:27:54,760 Speaker 1: men in the movie. Yeah, and it's a much smaller, 1405 01:27:54,960 --> 01:27:58,240 Speaker 1: more intimate movie. I feel like that doesn't make sense. 1406 01:27:58,280 --> 01:28:00,720 Speaker 1: But when you if you see it, you get it. Yeah, 1407 01:28:00,720 --> 01:28:03,920 Speaker 1: I gotta watch it that Unfortunately, I don't think it's 1408 01:28:03,920 --> 01:28:06,960 Speaker 1: streaming anywhere. It's almost never anywhere. That's why I had 1409 01:28:06,960 --> 01:28:10,160 Speaker 1: to buy the Blue Ring. But it's worth it. And 1410 01:28:10,160 --> 01:28:12,439 Speaker 1: then Pacific Rim which we've done before too, and that's 1411 01:28:12,479 --> 01:28:14,719 Speaker 1: more of like a big dumb fun movie. We're gonna 1412 01:28:14,720 --> 01:28:16,960 Speaker 1: do it. We're going to get to shave the water 1413 01:28:17,080 --> 01:28:20,920 Speaker 1: at some point because again, talking about the Dug Jones Fish, 1414 01:28:21,800 --> 01:28:26,400 Speaker 1: we didn't even talk about Doug Jones King. Doug Jones. 1415 01:28:26,840 --> 01:28:29,360 Speaker 1: He learned Spanish for this movie. They didn't use his 1416 01:28:29,439 --> 01:28:31,840 Speaker 1: voice learned how to learn. They didn't. They didn't use 1417 01:28:31,880 --> 01:28:35,160 Speaker 1: his voice, but they did. He did learn Spanish for it, 1418 01:28:35,200 --> 01:28:37,400 Speaker 1: but it wasn't good enough, so they dubbed it over 1419 01:28:37,520 --> 01:28:43,040 Speaker 1: with the Spanish speaking actor's voice dog, but Doug Jones rocks. 1420 01:28:43,120 --> 01:28:46,040 Speaker 1: I found out that he And it's too bad because 1421 01:28:46,080 --> 01:28:48,120 Speaker 1: this is a cultural image that has been taken by 1422 01:28:48,120 --> 01:28:50,400 Speaker 1: the alt right, which I didn't learn until I was like, 1423 01:28:50,520 --> 01:28:54,240 Speaker 1: this is fun and then everyone was like not anymore. Um, 1424 01:28:54,280 --> 01:28:58,040 Speaker 1: but do you remember that McDonald's mascot from the eighties 1425 01:28:58,080 --> 01:29:00,799 Speaker 1: that was called mac Tonight and it's just a mascot 1426 01:29:00,800 --> 01:29:05,000 Speaker 1: with a huge crescent moon for a head. Yes, that's 1427 01:29:05,080 --> 01:29:09,040 Speaker 1: Doug Jones. Wait for McDonald's or because I'm thinking of 1428 01:29:09,320 --> 01:29:12,760 Speaker 1: U J. J. Leno right or Conan one of them 1429 01:29:12,760 --> 01:29:17,120 Speaker 1: also had a moon headed mascot. Maybe they were copying it, 1430 01:29:17,200 --> 01:29:19,080 Speaker 1: or maybe the other way around. But yeah, mac Tonight 1431 01:29:19,200 --> 01:29:22,960 Speaker 1: was I don't know before my time, but he was 1432 01:29:23,000 --> 01:29:24,800 Speaker 1: a guy with a big crescent moon and it was 1433 01:29:24,840 --> 01:29:29,800 Speaker 1: about getting food and McDonald at night. I see it's 1434 01:29:29,840 --> 01:29:32,479 Speaker 1: all right now they all right. I don't even want 1435 01:29:32,479 --> 01:29:35,360 Speaker 1: to know what they've done with mac Tonight, but apparently 1436 01:29:35,880 --> 01:29:40,000 Speaker 1: they took him. He's gone. But he's Doug Jones back 1437 01:29:40,080 --> 01:29:42,080 Speaker 1: in the day. That was an early Doug Jones gig 1438 01:29:42,200 --> 01:29:45,920 Speaker 1: guy with a big he loves a big prosthetics. Sure 1439 01:29:46,000 --> 01:29:50,599 Speaker 1: do well, even with the huge as moon head. He's like, 1440 01:29:50,680 --> 01:29:55,200 Speaker 1: I'll do it, Jamie. Would you agree? Alfred Molina should 1441 01:29:55,200 --> 01:29:58,799 Speaker 1: have been in this movie? Yeah, he is part Spanish, 1442 01:29:58,840 --> 01:30:01,800 Speaker 1: he should he as an actor Spanish descent. Yeah, I 1443 01:30:01,800 --> 01:30:06,080 Speaker 1: mean he is bilingual, like I feel. But then I 1444 01:30:06,120 --> 01:30:07,560 Speaker 1: do feel like if he was in this movie. He 1445 01:30:07,560 --> 01:30:09,840 Speaker 1: would have been playing someone really terrible, and I'm almost 1446 01:30:09,840 --> 01:30:11,400 Speaker 1: glad he's not in it because I don't want to 1447 01:30:11,400 --> 01:30:13,840 Speaker 1: see him be a bad guy. I think he would 1448 01:30:13,840 --> 01:30:19,600 Speaker 1: have made a great doctor call. Yeah, he would. He 1449 01:30:19,640 --> 01:30:21,680 Speaker 1: would have fit. He would have fit in this world too. 1450 01:30:21,720 --> 01:30:23,880 Speaker 1: I don't even know what I'm saying when I'm saying 1451 01:30:23,880 --> 01:30:28,200 Speaker 1: that he fits in like a fantasy movie, and he 1452 01:30:28,240 --> 01:30:32,400 Speaker 1: fits in a period piece like in many ways, Pan's 1453 01:30:32,479 --> 01:30:39,439 Speaker 1: Labyrinth is a period piece. Yes, indeed, thanks for the 1454 01:30:39,479 --> 01:30:43,160 Speaker 1: excuse to go to Alfred Billina's Wikipedia today. What was 1455 01:30:43,200 --> 01:30:45,960 Speaker 1: he doing this year? Well, maybe he was. Maybe he 1456 01:30:46,040 --> 01:30:48,240 Speaker 1: was offered to roll and turned it down instead, he 1457 01:30:48,320 --> 01:30:51,080 Speaker 1: might have been doing something like the Da Vinci Code. 1458 01:30:51,120 --> 01:30:54,040 Speaker 1: I hope that's not true. That would be such a 1459 01:30:54,080 --> 01:30:57,120 Speaker 1: bummer if he was like, can't no, can do Guiarmo, 1460 01:30:57,680 --> 01:31:02,000 Speaker 1: I got a sweet in the Da Vinci Code. I 1461 01:31:02,000 --> 01:31:06,519 Speaker 1: don't know. This movie is so goddamn good. It's also 1462 01:31:06,600 --> 01:31:08,680 Speaker 1: where it's not even worth noting. You just want to 1463 01:31:08,680 --> 01:31:12,400 Speaker 1: throw it out there that Enrico Lupi, who plays the 1464 01:31:12,479 --> 01:31:16,960 Speaker 1: king Father character, is also in the Devil's Backbone and 1465 01:31:17,040 --> 01:31:20,760 Speaker 1: in Chronos. He's another of your most frequenters until he 1466 01:31:20,840 --> 01:31:24,600 Speaker 1: passed well. And also, um, the woman who plays Mercedes 1467 01:31:24,840 --> 01:31:29,760 Speaker 1: is I recognized her from Et Mama Tempion. Yes, yes 1468 01:31:29,840 --> 01:31:31,599 Speaker 1: she is. She think is the only other movie I've 1469 01:31:31,640 --> 01:31:34,480 Speaker 1: seen her in the way. Let me make more great connections. 1470 01:31:34,760 --> 01:31:39,679 Speaker 1: Garmo A Fonso Krone in Youoritu three best friends. Alfonso 1471 01:31:40,640 --> 01:31:44,880 Speaker 1: helped produce this movie. Yeah, I didn't realize that until 1472 01:31:46,080 --> 01:31:48,160 Speaker 1: researching for them. You know, he was involved in it, 1473 01:31:48,400 --> 01:31:51,040 Speaker 1: and that there was also I read on the scholarly 1474 01:31:51,120 --> 01:31:56,640 Speaker 1: journal Wikipedia dot org that there was like some disagreement 1475 01:31:56,720 --> 01:32:01,840 Speaker 1: about whether or that Inatu said that he viewed Pants 1476 01:32:01,880 --> 01:32:05,760 Speaker 1: Labyrinth as a truly Catholic film, and then del Toro 1477 01:32:06,000 --> 01:32:10,920 Speaker 1: was like no, which seems like it's kind of his thing. 1478 01:32:11,000 --> 01:32:13,439 Speaker 1: He's like that read is is No is a no 1479 01:32:13,640 --> 01:32:16,439 Speaker 1: for me, which is so hard to like. I don't 1480 01:32:16,600 --> 01:32:20,040 Speaker 1: understand how he can say that when he's so obsessed 1481 01:32:20,439 --> 01:32:23,800 Speaker 1: with Catholic imagery, Like that's just so his jam and 1482 01:32:23,840 --> 01:32:26,200 Speaker 1: he was raised Catholic and he kind of hates it, 1483 01:32:26,240 --> 01:32:28,880 Speaker 1: I guess, but you can't ignore that it's there. Well, 1484 01:32:28,880 --> 01:32:31,160 Speaker 1: that's what I kind of yeah sometimes I mean, And 1485 01:32:31,200 --> 01:32:34,800 Speaker 1: also I have if I'm like I am I'm like, 1486 01:32:34,840 --> 01:32:36,360 Speaker 1: I guess if I were, if I were making something 1487 01:32:36,400 --> 01:32:38,040 Speaker 1: on such a large scale, I bet I would have 1488 01:32:38,080 --> 01:32:40,280 Speaker 1: some control issues with it as well. Of like, no, 1489 01:32:40,439 --> 01:32:42,240 Speaker 1: that wasn't what I was saying. I was saying this, 1490 01:32:44,000 --> 01:32:46,280 Speaker 1: but but even so, it's like when you're able to 1491 01:32:46,320 --> 01:32:48,760 Speaker 1: make something on such a big scale, it's like it's 1492 01:32:48,800 --> 01:32:51,160 Speaker 1: cool that people can see different stuff in it and 1493 01:32:51,200 --> 01:32:54,920 Speaker 1: like see parts of them. I don't know, And also 1494 01:32:55,080 --> 01:32:59,120 Speaker 1: just like it's to be definitively like it's not about Catholic, 1495 01:32:59,200 --> 01:33:01,360 Speaker 1: Like I guess, I don't this like implies that you 1496 01:33:01,400 --> 01:33:04,280 Speaker 1: have more control over your what you're putting out subconsciously 1497 01:33:04,320 --> 01:33:09,080 Speaker 1: than you actually do. I don't know. Wow, art is 1498 01:33:09,720 --> 01:33:16,760 Speaker 1: complicated art. Does anyone have any final thoughts about the film? 1499 01:33:16,760 --> 01:33:20,880 Speaker 1: He needs to make more Spanish speaking movies, hasn't done 1500 01:33:20,880 --> 01:33:23,400 Speaker 1: so in a long time. Yeah, what was the last one? 1501 01:33:23,800 --> 01:33:27,280 Speaker 1: It was Pants? And then he went to do more 1502 01:33:27,320 --> 01:33:32,639 Speaker 1: Hell Boys and then specific ram Aple Water Crimson Peak. 1503 01:33:33,280 --> 01:33:35,479 Speaker 1: I always forget that was him. And then didn't he 1504 01:33:35,520 --> 01:33:38,160 Speaker 1: burn a couple of years doing like almost doing Hobbit 1505 01:33:38,200 --> 01:33:42,720 Speaker 1: and then not doing Hobbit. Yes, well, this movie does 1506 01:33:42,800 --> 01:33:47,960 Speaker 1: pass the b actual test between Ophelia and her mother Carmen. 1507 01:33:48,080 --> 01:33:52,200 Speaker 1: Between Ophelia and Mercedes um as far as our nipple 1508 01:33:52,240 --> 01:33:57,000 Speaker 1: scale zero to five nipples based on an examination through 1509 01:33:57,120 --> 01:34:02,240 Speaker 1: an intersectional feminist lens, This one it's tricky for me 1510 01:34:03,479 --> 01:34:06,800 Speaker 1: because on one hand, you have this, like again a 1511 01:34:06,840 --> 01:34:12,840 Speaker 1: hero's journey narrative that is led by a woman, three women, really, 1512 01:34:12,880 --> 01:34:17,240 Speaker 1: I mean especially, and then two women or two female 1513 01:34:17,320 --> 01:34:22,479 Speaker 1: characters emerges like the most heroic characters of the film, 1514 01:34:22,520 --> 01:34:26,240 Speaker 1: between Ophelia and Mercedes. And then I like that it's 1515 01:34:26,960 --> 01:34:31,960 Speaker 1: a fairy tale narrative that is about a female character, 1516 01:34:32,000 --> 01:34:34,880 Speaker 1: but it is not like a princess having to get 1517 01:34:35,320 --> 01:34:37,960 Speaker 1: rescued and falling in love with a prince, because like 1518 01:34:38,360 --> 01:34:42,600 Speaker 1: I think, Disney, uh, and you know, other entities have 1519 01:34:42,680 --> 01:34:45,240 Speaker 1: kind of conditioned us to think, oh, fairy tale, that's 1520 01:34:45,240 --> 01:34:47,960 Speaker 1: probably about a princess falling in love with a prince. 1521 01:34:48,080 --> 01:34:50,080 Speaker 1: So but I still like that you have like all that, 1522 01:34:50,120 --> 01:34:53,599 Speaker 1: like you have like an evil step father this time 1523 01:34:54,400 --> 01:34:57,760 Speaker 1: in versions all that good ship. A lot of the 1524 01:34:57,880 --> 01:35:00,360 Speaker 1: components are there, a lot of the conventions are there, 1525 01:35:00,400 --> 01:35:04,479 Speaker 1: but it it subverts a lot of that stuff, you know, 1526 01:35:04,560 --> 01:35:09,800 Speaker 1: by being critical of fascism and you know, so you know, 1527 01:35:09,840 --> 01:35:14,400 Speaker 1: it's just the characters. I mean between again Ophelia and 1528 01:35:14,680 --> 01:35:19,280 Speaker 1: Mercedes especially, it's two female characters with a ton of 1529 01:35:19,320 --> 01:35:24,200 Speaker 1: agency who are driving the narrative. But then you have 1530 01:35:24,400 --> 01:35:27,040 Speaker 1: the whole and again, I don't know if it's just 1531 01:35:27,120 --> 01:35:29,720 Speaker 1: how my brain works, where I am not good at 1532 01:35:30,040 --> 01:35:33,240 Speaker 1: picking up on symbolism and I'm not good at picking 1533 01:35:33,320 --> 01:35:36,120 Speaker 1: up on visual metaphors, like I just didn't even occur 1534 01:35:36,240 --> 01:35:38,840 Speaker 1: to me all of the like and I know it's 1535 01:35:38,920 --> 01:35:41,439 Speaker 1: right there, but just like all of the vagina and 1536 01:35:41,520 --> 01:35:46,920 Speaker 1: the blood and like what that might mean? And what 1537 01:35:47,479 --> 01:35:52,839 Speaker 1: is the obsession with so many like male auteurs telling 1538 01:35:53,360 --> 01:35:57,160 Speaker 1: stories about girls going into what could be interpreted as 1539 01:35:57,200 --> 01:36:01,479 Speaker 1: a vagina whole and it's and then having an adventure 1540 01:36:01,520 --> 01:36:04,920 Speaker 1: there um, and like what are the implications of all 1541 01:36:04,960 --> 01:36:06,920 Speaker 1: of that? I don't know how to make sense with that. 1542 01:36:07,439 --> 01:36:10,719 Speaker 1: I'm like reminded of my days in film school brag 1543 01:36:11,280 --> 01:36:14,080 Speaker 1: where I would take like film studies class that had 1544 01:36:14,120 --> 01:36:16,439 Speaker 1: these like interpretations that I'm just like, what are you 1545 01:36:16,479 --> 01:36:19,320 Speaker 1: talking about? That's not there. I don't see that at all. 1546 01:36:20,120 --> 01:36:21,840 Speaker 1: And then I'm like, well, maybe it is there. I 1547 01:36:21,880 --> 01:36:24,000 Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know again, I just don't know 1548 01:36:24,040 --> 01:36:28,640 Speaker 1: how to read things that are not extremely explicit. I 1549 01:36:28,680 --> 01:36:32,759 Speaker 1: guess so, and if you're roasting yourself, I don't know. 1550 01:36:33,760 --> 01:36:37,639 Speaker 1: I was like finished, but still has in yourself all 1551 01:36:37,920 --> 01:36:40,960 Speaker 1: everything that I it seems like I understood came from 1552 01:36:41,000 --> 01:36:46,120 Speaker 1: reading Garamoa's words. Yeah, and then also realizing he just 1553 01:36:46,200 --> 01:36:48,400 Speaker 1: has a certain language where some of those things are 1554 01:36:48,439 --> 01:36:51,760 Speaker 1: kind of repeated throughout all of his movies. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 1555 01:36:51,760 --> 01:36:55,800 Speaker 1: I guess like knowing you're knowing his entire catalog, definitely, 1556 01:36:56,240 --> 01:37:02,839 Speaker 1: he sure. Yeah, he loves asa metrical circle things. Yeah, 1557 01:37:03,280 --> 01:37:09,639 Speaker 1: the Moana spiral it's there for um, which is also 1558 01:37:09,640 --> 01:37:12,559 Speaker 1: probably like symbolism that it refers to something that I 1559 01:37:12,640 --> 01:37:15,040 Speaker 1: don't know about. Yeah, that one, I'm like not smart enough, 1560 01:37:15,120 --> 01:37:19,920 Speaker 1: don't know. So with all of that in mind, I 1561 01:37:19,960 --> 01:37:23,479 Speaker 1: don't know what to rate this. I really love this 1562 01:37:23,520 --> 01:37:27,519 Speaker 1: movie on a like just purely like I love watching 1563 01:37:27,560 --> 01:37:30,360 Speaker 1: this movie. I'd give it a million nipples on our 1564 01:37:30,479 --> 01:37:34,200 Speaker 1: nipple scale. I don't know. I guess it would be 1565 01:37:34,280 --> 01:37:39,559 Speaker 1: like a three point seven five or a four. It's 1566 01:37:39,560 --> 01:37:44,519 Speaker 1: still rates really highly based on the characters and what 1567 01:37:44,600 --> 01:37:50,760 Speaker 1: they do and the various kind of thematic things I 1568 01:37:50,800 --> 01:37:55,519 Speaker 1: don't know what is everyone else gonna do. I'm gonna Klein, 1569 01:37:57,360 --> 01:38:00,120 Speaker 1: I'm gonna, I'm gonna I'm gonna do three three point 1570 01:38:00,160 --> 01:38:04,439 Speaker 1: seven five. I think between that, yeah, because I mean, 1571 01:38:05,320 --> 01:38:08,280 Speaker 1: there is so much being done here in the fantasy 1572 01:38:08,439 --> 01:38:11,360 Speaker 1: genre that you don't get to see very much. You 1573 01:38:11,439 --> 01:38:13,800 Speaker 1: get also like, I feel like we we hit on 1574 01:38:13,840 --> 01:38:16,280 Speaker 1: it here and there, but like the commentary being made 1575 01:38:16,320 --> 01:38:19,360 Speaker 1: on class here, even though I didn't realize what aristole 1576 01:38:19,400 --> 01:38:20,960 Speaker 1: you brought up. It's kind of at the expense of 1577 01:38:21,080 --> 01:38:26,240 Speaker 1: historical accuracy. But I really like the commentary being made 1578 01:38:26,360 --> 01:38:31,559 Speaker 1: on class here and the trauma that can come with 1579 01:38:31,640 --> 01:38:34,040 Speaker 1: trying to get out of the class that you were 1580 01:38:34,080 --> 01:38:37,480 Speaker 1: born in um in order to survive, and the sacrifices 1581 01:38:37,520 --> 01:38:40,000 Speaker 1: that come with that. Like, I feel like del Toro 1582 01:38:40,160 --> 01:38:44,400 Speaker 1: is really good at having those conversations a lot of 1583 01:38:44,400 --> 01:38:48,760 Speaker 1: the time and has a way of I mean, just 1584 01:38:48,800 --> 01:38:50,759 Speaker 1: based on the stuff of his I've seen, it seems 1585 01:38:50,760 --> 01:38:53,800 Speaker 1: to be like a champion of the working person. I'm 1586 01:38:53,880 --> 01:38:57,240 Speaker 1: very critical of the upper class, which, uh, a lot 1587 01:38:57,360 --> 01:39:00,000 Speaker 1: of movies aren't. Where it's like, this is a movie 1588 01:39:00,120 --> 01:39:03,639 Speaker 1: about a princess, and it is about how the marquis, 1589 01:39:04,360 --> 01:39:05,960 Speaker 1: who are these people that they're in charge of? We 1590 01:39:06,000 --> 01:39:10,720 Speaker 1: don't care. So, in addition to three female protagonists that 1591 01:39:10,800 --> 01:39:14,120 Speaker 1: all are very different and have very different faiths, it 1592 01:39:14,160 --> 01:39:19,840 Speaker 1: makes me sad that the female hero's journey results in 1593 01:39:20,439 --> 01:39:23,240 Speaker 1: most likely her death. But it makes sense in the story, 1594 01:39:23,280 --> 01:39:26,599 Speaker 1: and I feel like that ties into other commentary that 1595 01:39:26,800 --> 01:39:31,240 Speaker 1: he's making. So it worked for me. It makes sense. Yeah, 1596 01:39:31,360 --> 01:39:36,720 Speaker 1: I did the vagina metaphor. I mean, is I think 1597 01:39:36,720 --> 01:39:39,960 Speaker 1: I got more. It doesn't really bother me. It bothered 1598 01:39:39,960 --> 01:39:41,680 Speaker 1: me more when I found out that He's like, no, 1599 01:39:41,840 --> 01:39:47,120 Speaker 1: it isn't. I'm like, come on the So maybe that 1600 01:39:47,200 --> 01:39:51,800 Speaker 1: was me just being a little like but it but 1601 01:39:51,800 --> 01:39:55,520 Speaker 1: but she walking into a vaginta guarmo and that's okay, 1602 01:39:55,520 --> 01:39:58,000 Speaker 1: but just like, don't be like it comes off a 1603 01:39:58,000 --> 01:40:02,040 Speaker 1: little fawn like no, no, no, don't question it, right, 1604 01:40:02,280 --> 01:40:05,080 Speaker 1: So so that I mean it also is like kind 1605 01:40:05,120 --> 01:40:08,960 Speaker 1: of any and he's interestingly he like is very clearly 1606 01:40:09,439 --> 01:40:13,040 Speaker 1: inspired by another narrative that uses this exact convention of 1607 01:40:13,120 --> 01:40:14,880 Speaker 1: tossing a girl in a hole to learn a lesson. 1608 01:40:15,120 --> 01:40:18,600 Speaker 1: He is openly admitted to that, but maybe doesn't I 1609 01:40:18,640 --> 01:40:21,280 Speaker 1: don't know. I thought that that was interesting. I'm gonna 1610 01:40:21,320 --> 01:40:26,200 Speaker 1: go three point seven five because that's just what I'm 1611 01:40:26,280 --> 01:40:29,920 Speaker 1: doing today. I love this movie so much. It will 1612 01:40:30,000 --> 01:40:34,120 Speaker 1: always be my first Del Toro, my favor Del Toro, 1613 01:40:35,240 --> 01:40:40,960 Speaker 1: and Doug Jones forever. That is what I had to 1614 01:40:41,000 --> 01:40:43,040 Speaker 1: say at three point seven five. And I'll give one 1615 01:40:43,120 --> 01:40:46,479 Speaker 1: to each of the main three characters, and I'll give 1616 01:40:46,520 --> 01:40:50,479 Speaker 1: my last point seven five to the ferry that gets 1617 01:40:50,479 --> 01:40:54,960 Speaker 1: their head bitten off. I was also thinking three and 1618 01:40:54,960 --> 01:40:58,400 Speaker 1: a half, but I do. I end of want to 1619 01:40:58,439 --> 01:41:02,400 Speaker 1: give it four because I think under a critical lens 1620 01:41:03,120 --> 01:41:07,040 Speaker 1: there's lots of faults and lots of things that could 1621 01:41:07,040 --> 01:41:12,000 Speaker 1: be improved upon or made clearer. But I think overall 1622 01:41:12,200 --> 01:41:16,680 Speaker 1: net good. It's a movie about two women, more than 1623 01:41:16,720 --> 01:41:19,280 Speaker 1: all three, but two women being rebellious in the face 1624 01:41:19,360 --> 01:41:23,920 Speaker 1: of extreme oppression, and I think that is it. You know, 1625 01:41:24,080 --> 01:41:26,000 Speaker 1: it's not a children's movie, but it can at least 1626 01:41:26,000 --> 01:41:30,960 Speaker 1: be hopeful in a good lesson taught. So net good 1627 01:41:31,160 --> 01:41:34,240 Speaker 1: for sure. Not good. Yeah, I would say four, though 1628 01:41:34,280 --> 01:41:38,080 Speaker 1: that also feels at a little bit much, right, That's okay. 1629 01:41:38,160 --> 01:41:41,400 Speaker 1: I think I'll settle on a three point seven five 1630 01:41:41,520 --> 01:41:45,520 Speaker 1: because I think there's still room to maybe give Mercedes 1631 01:41:45,560 --> 01:41:48,040 Speaker 1: a little bit more characterization. I think there's room to 1632 01:41:48,080 --> 01:41:50,880 Speaker 1: have given the mother a little bit more characterization and 1633 01:41:50,960 --> 01:41:54,160 Speaker 1: more fully explain kind of like why she made some 1634 01:41:54,200 --> 01:41:57,760 Speaker 1: of the choices she's made. And yeah, it's it just 1635 01:41:57,760 --> 01:41:59,760 Speaker 1: could have gone a little bit further, I think with 1636 01:42:00,000 --> 01:42:03,000 Speaker 1: some of the characterization. So I'll land on at three 1637 01:42:03,000 --> 01:42:08,479 Speaker 1: point seven five and all my all, my nipples. How 1638 01:42:08,520 --> 01:42:13,200 Speaker 1: many nipples does it? Dug drones fawn have? They must 1639 01:42:13,200 --> 01:42:19,000 Speaker 1: have four? Well, if a fawn is a part goat, right, goats, 1640 01:42:19,120 --> 01:42:20,840 Speaker 1: I believe you know, off the top of your head, 1641 01:42:20,960 --> 01:42:23,840 Speaker 1: I think they're they have like a four utter situation, 1642 01:42:24,000 --> 01:42:28,000 Speaker 1: much like a cow. So that's my guess. I don't know. 1643 01:42:28,760 --> 01:42:31,360 Speaker 1: I really hate that this has become a part of 1644 01:42:31,400 --> 01:42:37,880 Speaker 1: my personality that I just know how nipples don't I 1645 01:42:37,920 --> 01:42:40,519 Speaker 1: want to really and you know what this ends today? 1646 01:42:40,960 --> 01:42:45,479 Speaker 1: This thing never never talked to me about. Yeah, no 1647 01:42:45,560 --> 01:42:49,519 Speaker 1: more cat facts. I'm moving on to something else what 1648 01:42:49,760 --> 01:42:55,920 Speaker 1: I don't know. But anyways to the toad. Oh yes, 1649 01:42:56,120 --> 01:43:01,160 Speaker 1: feminist icon, queer icon, the toad. The toad. Watching the 1650 01:43:01,240 --> 01:43:07,240 Speaker 1: toad deflate never doesn't make me laugh. When the when 1651 01:43:07,240 --> 01:43:12,200 Speaker 1: the toad is just like I'm a balloon. I'll give 1652 01:43:12,200 --> 01:43:15,519 Speaker 1: my three point seven five nipples, you know what, I'll 1653 01:43:15,520 --> 01:43:18,000 Speaker 1: give him to the pale all of them to the 1654 01:43:18,040 --> 01:43:23,240 Speaker 1: pale man. Yeah, we never what was the pale man's 1655 01:43:23,479 --> 01:43:28,120 Speaker 1: real story? He has murals of him torturing children hanging 1656 01:43:28,200 --> 01:43:32,640 Speaker 1: up in his little cave, but like, who painted them? 1657 01:43:32,840 --> 01:43:36,120 Speaker 1: Did he commission someone? Yeah? Yeah, he's got a whole 1658 01:43:36,240 --> 01:43:38,640 Speaker 1: sh morgus board of food that he that you're not 1659 01:43:38,720 --> 01:43:41,760 Speaker 1: allowed to eat? What is that? Is that class commentary 1660 01:43:41,880 --> 01:43:45,719 Speaker 1: that only the rich are allowed to eat the luxurious food? 1661 01:43:45,920 --> 01:43:49,200 Speaker 1: Also shout out to the production designer of this movie 1662 01:43:49,240 --> 01:43:52,600 Speaker 1: for for so many reasons, right, but mostly because I'm like, 1663 01:43:52,800 --> 01:43:57,000 Speaker 1: those grapes did look good, so tasty. Usually when someone 1664 01:43:57,080 --> 01:44:00,320 Speaker 1: like eats the forbidden freedom like that doesn't even like, 1665 01:44:00,320 --> 01:44:02,640 Speaker 1: like you must be so hungry, but the grapes are like, 1666 01:44:02,680 --> 01:44:05,800 Speaker 1: those grapes are gigantic. Though, I have to get back 1667 01:44:05,800 --> 01:44:07,640 Speaker 1: into it. But that also was a little bit of 1668 01:44:07,760 --> 01:44:12,040 Speaker 1: a question for me, was we know that she's rebellious, 1669 01:44:12,080 --> 01:44:15,360 Speaker 1: so that's our understanding of why she does it purely 1670 01:44:15,360 --> 01:44:18,920 Speaker 1: out of rebellion. Because she is so rebellious, she disobeys 1671 01:44:19,120 --> 01:44:22,200 Speaker 1: what the font tells her. It's the grapes, but there's 1672 01:44:22,200 --> 01:44:24,920 Speaker 1: also no reason, like she has proven to be a 1673 01:44:25,040 --> 01:44:28,559 Speaker 1: very strong character, and you know, never do we learn 1674 01:44:28,600 --> 01:44:31,960 Speaker 1: that she likes sweets or fruits or anything. We never 1675 01:44:32,680 --> 01:44:35,120 Speaker 1: there's no like you missed your meal. There was no 1676 01:44:35,280 --> 01:44:38,960 Speaker 1: real reason for her to have any strong feeling towards 1677 01:44:38,960 --> 01:44:42,120 Speaker 1: those grapes, Like she could have easily gone out of there, 1678 01:44:42,160 --> 01:44:45,360 Speaker 1: but for some reason we get the temptation and she 1679 01:44:45,800 --> 01:44:52,240 Speaker 1: fails too. Because it's like the other comparable like story thing. 1680 01:44:52,280 --> 01:44:54,320 Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, it's like when Aladdin takes the lamp, 1681 01:44:54,360 --> 01:44:56,519 Speaker 1: but you also know why he wants to take the lamp, 1682 01:44:56,520 --> 01:44:59,160 Speaker 1: and that's kind of like set into his character when 1683 01:44:59,200 --> 01:45:04,000 Speaker 1: you know him, of like, while he survives by taking, 1684 01:45:04,200 --> 01:45:06,400 Speaker 1: like he has to, he has to deal to survive. 1685 01:45:06,439 --> 01:45:10,240 Speaker 1: This is built into his character where, yeah, it's not 1686 01:45:10,320 --> 01:45:13,080 Speaker 1: totally clear why she eats the grape other than the 1687 01:45:13,160 --> 01:45:15,640 Speaker 1: big old grape because it just looks so tatous. Well, 1688 01:45:15,640 --> 01:45:18,080 Speaker 1: there is that scene where like she's sent to bed 1689 01:45:18,360 --> 01:45:22,120 Speaker 1: without dinner, but that happens several days before this, so 1690 01:45:22,160 --> 01:45:24,120 Speaker 1: it's not as though she's like hungry, and I don't 1691 01:45:24,120 --> 01:45:26,840 Speaker 1: think she's still hungry from that. I don't know if 1692 01:45:26,920 --> 01:45:28,920 Speaker 1: that's a really good point. Yeah, I'm not sure. Well, 1693 01:45:29,240 --> 01:45:32,120 Speaker 1: Giarmo answered that question. What are we supposed to say 1694 01:45:32,160 --> 01:45:35,599 Speaker 1: about that? Sir? We won't ask you about Vagina's ever again, 1695 01:45:35,720 --> 01:45:41,760 Speaker 1: we promise. Well, Aristotle has been such a delight to 1696 01:45:41,840 --> 01:45:48,000 Speaker 1: have you here. Thanks for coming on the Castle. It's 1697 01:45:48,040 --> 01:45:51,479 Speaker 1: just nice to have you back. I know, we lower 1698 01:45:51,640 --> 01:45:54,280 Speaker 1: the embargo on men and then you come on for 1699 01:45:54,320 --> 01:45:58,360 Speaker 1: an episode, and then we raised the gate back. I 1700 01:45:58,760 --> 01:46:04,320 Speaker 1: appreciate it. Yes, of course, where can people follow you 1701 01:46:04,439 --> 01:46:08,679 Speaker 1: online and check out anything? You'd like to plug? Aris? 1702 01:46:08,720 --> 01:46:12,280 Speaker 1: Tacos on everything except for TikTok, you know, because who 1703 01:46:12,280 --> 01:46:14,960 Speaker 1: knows why Why make the account if it's not going 1704 01:46:15,000 --> 01:46:19,160 Speaker 1: to be there? Yeah, all these tacos and everything. But 1705 01:46:19,160 --> 01:46:22,640 Speaker 1: I also want to shout out D s A and 1706 01:46:22,760 --> 01:46:26,240 Speaker 1: water Drop and street Watch and all those organizations and 1707 01:46:26,320 --> 01:46:29,080 Speaker 1: being involved with those and finding your local version of 1708 01:46:29,120 --> 01:46:34,280 Speaker 1: that because they're happening everywhere, and though not always perfect organizations, 1709 01:46:34,720 --> 01:46:39,240 Speaker 1: they are doing net good. Yes, and the work that 1710 01:46:39,680 --> 01:46:42,920 Speaker 1: you know other people should be doing and blatantly aren't. 1711 01:46:43,000 --> 01:46:48,320 Speaker 1: So mutual aid is the way, the light, the direction. 1712 01:46:49,439 --> 01:46:52,200 Speaker 1: Can I also just say Aristotle that you posted some 1713 01:46:52,280 --> 01:46:54,799 Speaker 1: videos I think in July about like how to reduce 1714 01:46:54,960 --> 01:46:59,519 Speaker 1: your single use plastic waste, and I like really took 1715 01:46:59,520 --> 01:47:02,080 Speaker 1: it to her and I'm like taking a lot of 1716 01:47:02,120 --> 01:47:07,040 Speaker 1: measures to very drastically reduce the single use plastic in 1717 01:47:07,120 --> 01:47:10,880 Speaker 1: my life. Awesome, thanks for that. Yes, I've got a 1718 01:47:10,920 --> 01:47:13,080 Speaker 1: lot of good response from those videos, but I just 1719 01:47:14,400 --> 01:47:16,920 Speaker 1: hated doing it. I don't. I was like, I hate 1720 01:47:16,960 --> 01:47:19,280 Speaker 1: having this camera on me and just talking into it, 1721 01:47:19,360 --> 01:47:24,240 Speaker 1: so I'm just gonna stop. Well, it worked work. You 1722 01:47:24,320 --> 01:47:31,400 Speaker 1: are legally obligated to start a YouTube channel. M Well, 1723 01:47:31,439 --> 01:47:34,920 Speaker 1: speaking of YouTube, we do have a channel, but we 1724 01:47:34,960 --> 01:47:38,799 Speaker 1: don't post anything of it but instead and don't expect 1725 01:47:38,800 --> 01:47:43,000 Speaker 1: that to start. Sorry, but you can follow us on 1726 01:47:43,040 --> 01:47:47,000 Speaker 1: Twitter and Instagram at Bechtel Cast. You can subscribe to 1727 01:47:47,000 --> 01:47:50,000 Speaker 1: our patreon ak Matreon. It's five dollars a month. It 1728 01:47:50,040 --> 01:47:52,800 Speaker 1: gets you access to two bonus episodes every single month, 1729 01:47:52,840 --> 01:47:57,120 Speaker 1: plus the entire back catalog of bonus episodes, and that's 1730 01:47:57,200 --> 01:48:02,639 Speaker 1: at patreon dot com. Slash Bectel asked with that, shall 1731 01:48:02,680 --> 01:48:07,679 Speaker 1: we shall we go back down to a pretty I'm 1732 01:48:07,720 --> 01:48:10,439 Speaker 1: pretty hungry If you guys wanna see if we swipe 1733 01:48:10,479 --> 01:48:14,240 Speaker 1: something from the pie Man. Yes, let's do it all right, 1734 01:48:14,520 --> 01:48:15,400 Speaker 1: by by bye,