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Speaker 1: Cool Media Clout and welcome to cool People did cool stuff.

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Speaker 1: You're the weekly reminder that when there's bad things happening,

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Speaker 1: there's people trying to do good things, or when there's

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Speaker 1: bad things happening, there's podcast hosts who get lost in

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Speaker 1: two thousand, three thousand year old history out of desire

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Speaker 1: to experience anything other than the fascistic world we live in.

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Speaker 1: I am your host, Margaret Kiljoy, and I am the

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Speaker 1: aforementioned person, but I also have a guest this week.

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Speaker 1: My guest this week is Gabriel Dunn, host of two

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Speaker 1: hundred and twenty four Natural Shocks. It's something like that, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's one thousand natural shocks. It couldn't just be

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Speaker 2: the twenty twenty four because it kind of goes, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's ongoing. It wasn't like wow, and in twenty twenty

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Speaker 2: five we healed.

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Speaker 1: Oh I picked a random number. I accidentally picked ay

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Speaker 1: the year.

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Speaker 2: Can I just say, just on the record, I'm so

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Speaker 2: excited to be I'm so I want your audience to

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Speaker 2: know I have listened to probably eight straight hours of

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Speaker 2: this show at one point when I'm working. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 2: gonna be real wild for me to have you talking

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Speaker 2: at me, and so I don't know if your audience

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Speaker 2: is like used to like cool, chill academic people, but

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Speaker 2: I shall simply not be that.

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Speaker 1: All right, that's great, and if you want to hear us,

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Speaker 1: have another conversation. I was on a thousand natural shocks. Yes,

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Speaker 1: people can go listen to me talking about anarchism, which

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Speaker 1: is something I never do otherwise and rare treat. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we also have a producer, but she's not here, but

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Speaker 1: her name is Sophie and she's great. And we also

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Speaker 1: have an audio engineer named Eva hi Eva hi Eva.

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Speaker 2: I also know that Sophie always says, hello, Magpie, you

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Speaker 2: invited a crazy fan here.

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Speaker 3: You should have done it.

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Speaker 1: I know this is my own fault. And our theme

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Speaker 1: music is written for us by unwem Okay. So last

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Speaker 1: week I researched the Druids because it was spooky week

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Speaker 1: and I wanted to read about the philosophers of the

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Speaker 1: ancient Celts, mostly because I was like, I wanted to

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Speaker 1: know what was true and what wasn't. And the big

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Speaker 1: takeaway was that we don't know. We don't know what's

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Speaker 1: true and what isn't. But I wound up reading as

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Speaker 1: much as I could about their like gender and shit,

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Speaker 1: there's like lady Druids that almost never talked about, but

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Speaker 1: there's only a little bit of information out there. But

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Speaker 1: I started thinking, Gabe, okay, do you ever get annoyed

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Speaker 1: when people are like, hey, I want to have you

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Speaker 1: on my podcast. I want to talk about a trans thing,

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Speaker 1: so you'd be perfect for it.

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Speaker 2: I had been out for approximately one week and the

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Speaker 2: Sundance Channel asked me to come on and do a

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Speaker 2: panel to talking about trans film, and I was like,

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Speaker 2: I have been trans for simply one week.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, just drop you right in the fire.

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Speaker 3: Honestly, I have sis friends who know more than I do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, honestly say but but now I know a little

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Speaker 1: more than I did, because you know, people have been

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Speaker 1: saying things like, oh, trans people, I've always been here,

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Speaker 1: and you've been like, yeah, yeah, totally, I get it.

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Speaker 1: And then they're like there were trans priestesses in ancient

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Speaker 1: Rome and they were held as more sacred because of

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Speaker 1: how they were transgender. And I was like, mmm, baby,

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Speaker 1: I don't know everything. And people say about the far

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Speaker 1: past is like wish thinking, and it's a compelling story.

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Speaker 1: And anytime there's a compelling story. I don't want to

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Speaker 1: dive into it because I like this story. Well, this

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Speaker 1: week I dove into exactly that story. Oh okay, we

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Speaker 1: are going to talk about trans priestesses in ancient Rome.

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Speaker 3: Wow, okay, this is very exciting. Are they real? Don't

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Speaker 3: spoil it. Okay, they're real.

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Speaker 1: They're so real, and they are so actually trans. It's

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Speaker 1: not just a unit culture. It's like, it is recognizably

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Speaker 1: transgender women who are holy attendants to a goddess with

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Speaker 1: a thousand different names.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, please, somebody made this movie, right, I

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Speaker 2: haven't seen it.

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Speaker 3: If not, here we go.

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Speaker 1: So there's only one part of the sentence that I

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Speaker 1: read above about them that's wrong. The trans priestesses of

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Speaker 1: ancient Rome were only considered more sacred by some people.

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Speaker 1: They were actually, and this will sound familiar to you,

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Speaker 1: ostracized by society and then a legal limbo between male

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Speaker 1: and female. What yeah, they like? Just to skip ahead

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Speaker 1: in my own script, they weren't allowed to get married

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Speaker 1: because in order to get married, you have to be

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Speaker 1: a man or a woman, right, And they couldn't inherit

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Speaker 1: property because you have to be a man or a

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Speaker 1: woman to inherit. But it's like, oh, sorry, it's law

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Speaker 1: says only men or women can inherit property.

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Speaker 3: And we cannot change the law.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. We're not Rome the inventor of modern law.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if that's true or not.

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Speaker 2: It's so interesting to me, even when it's the positive

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Speaker 2: of and these trans.

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Speaker 3: Priestesses were revered by all.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of like, Okay, it feels very what's the like,

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Speaker 2: it feels very fetishy or something. Yeah, it feels like

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Speaker 2: and they were beloved for their like it's sort of like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: maybe some people liked them, some people didn't.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and they like they made noise music and they

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Speaker 1: got stuck doing sex work. So they're just the cliche

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Speaker 1: trans women. Three thousand years.

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Speaker 3: Ago, were they programming computer?

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Speaker 1: Probably that fucking you know that like ancient Roman mathematics

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Speaker 1: machine they found in the ocean at some point. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: fuck it. If someone told me it was one of

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Speaker 1: these ladies, I would not be surprised.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, what's the ancient Roman equivalent of David Lynch?

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Speaker 1: Well, they have that fucking I don't want to cover her.

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Speaker 1: At some point there was like some emperor of Rome

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Speaker 1: that was trans. But that's not what I looked up.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, this is thrilling.

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Speaker 1: Yeah so, but they were the holy priesthood of one

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Speaker 1: of the most important gods in the Roman State religion.

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Speaker 1: But they're origins which lay outside of Rome are even

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Speaker 1: more ancient, and we don't know one hundred percent their origins,

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Speaker 1: but we know like some of it goes to Greece

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Speaker 1: and then Phrygia and then possibly Okay, the oldest urban

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Speaker 1: civilization in the world is sumer and Sumerians lived thirty

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Speaker 1: five hundred years ago and also possibly longer than that

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Speaker 1: the whole like who lived to hear exactly when thing

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Speaker 1: is really annoying And there's people who are listening who

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Speaker 1: know way more about this than me. But the Sumerians

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Speaker 1: had fucking gender deviant priests.

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Speaker 2: Like way back the original Yeah the city er you

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Speaker 2: are right, the one that means original, Like people use

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Speaker 2: the word er to be like, oh the er city,

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Speaker 2: the er right to being the original.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, had fucking we have really genuinely always been here,

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Speaker 1: you and I and okay, I'll get into it.

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Speaker 2: This is the thing is that like all of this

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Speaker 2: stuff is very recent and made up. It's like how

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Speaker 2: people think oh, we can't exist without and it's like

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Speaker 2: baby ice was made in two thousand and three, Like

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Speaker 2: there's like, oh, well, gender's always been this way, and

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Speaker 2: it's like.

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Speaker 1: No, no, and it's kind of like as far as

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Speaker 1: I could tell, and there's some other people who'll know better,

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Speaker 1: but as far as I could tell us kind of

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Speaker 1: Greece and Rome's fault that we have these like specific

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Speaker 1: gender roles that like Western civilization teaches.

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Speaker 3: Oh, they were hypocrites. This is so shocking.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you're going to be really surprised by this

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Speaker 1: is a hypocrite from Oh, these probably there's probably a

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Speaker 1: Greek man named Hippocrates or something. I don't know. My

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Speaker 1: Latin teacher in high school let us cheat, and I

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Speaker 1: didn't learn any Latin. I took three years of it.

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Speaker 1: The oldest written language in the world is Sumerian, and

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Speaker 1: so it first started getting written in about thirty two

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Speaker 1: hundred BCE. In that language, there is poetry about how

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Speaker 1: their greatest god, the goddess Anani, could trans people's genders,

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Speaker 1: and that was one of her most important roles.

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Speaker 3: Why to what end?

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Speaker 1: We don't one hundred percent know that part.

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Speaker 2: She was like big day of transing the people that

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Speaker 2: worship me.

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Speaker 3: Oh what for don't know, I don't know. Gotta do it.

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Speaker 1: They just woke up feeling that way.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know. They line up outside the temple

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Speaker 3: and I gotta do it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. If someone was like, why did she become trends,

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Speaker 1: I'd be like, man, I don't know, exactly.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I always say, like performing like a passion play to

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Speaker 2: sist people where you're like you have to lay out

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Speaker 2: like how much this is like painful for you, and

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Speaker 2: like you really can't deal with No, it's just I

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Speaker 2: just chose to.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I know totally. It was like it didn't seem

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Speaker 1: like a choice when I was a kid, and then

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Speaker 1: it became a choice, and I was like, that's the

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Speaker 1: choice I want to make exactly.

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Speaker 2: I always say, it's so funny to me that like

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Speaker 2: friends from high school are allowed to age and have

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Speaker 2: changing bodies and have children, and they're allowed to like

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Speaker 2: go gray blah blah blah. Everybody looks different, but somehow

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Speaker 2: the way that I look different is somehow wild.

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Speaker 1: Right totally, as if like half those people aren't taking

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Speaker 1: tea blockers are just on their scalp for their hair,

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Speaker 1: thank you, Like no, I think about that all the time.

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Speaker 2: Don't worry about it. Nobody looks the same as they

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Speaker 2: did at twenty five. Don't worry about what I did.

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Speaker 3: I know.

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Speaker 1: And also them, they're like, oh, teenagers making permanent decisions,

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Speaker 1: and you're like, yeah, you know what decision? You make?

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Speaker 1: This permanent every single decision, right, And like, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: It is pure random luck that I didn't get a

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Speaker 1: worse stick in poke when I was a kid, you know,

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Speaker 1: like hundred percent. Anyway, I am avoiding. I'm procrastinating saying

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Speaker 1: the name of this cult of priestesses because I don't

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Speaker 1: know how to pronounce it, even though I actually looked

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Speaker 1: it up since it's not French. I actually bothered to

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Speaker 1: look it up. And the problem is is that the

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Speaker 1: golly or gallet or Galli is spelled and pronounced in

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Speaker 1: different ways. There's both the Greek, there's the Roman, and

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Speaker 1: also specifically it is gendered in different ways. And I,

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Speaker 1: like I said, sure, didn't learn anything in Latin, so

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Speaker 1: I'm going to go with the goli, which is g

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Speaker 1: A L L A E cute. And I don't know

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Speaker 1: there was a cult called the Galley or the Goli

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Speaker 1: in Rome and before that in Greece, and before that

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Speaker 1: in Phrygia, which is in western Anatolia it's now Turkey,

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Speaker 1: And they worshiped a mother goddess, one of the more

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Speaker 1: important ones. And they were trans as fuck, not just

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Speaker 1: men cross dressing, not just eunuchs. But they were fulfilling

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Speaker 1: a sort of third gender position in society, similar to

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Speaker 1: third genders and trans situations all over the world. And

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Speaker 1: they worshiped the god Sibylly under a fuck ton of

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Speaker 1: different names. Just these cultures are so syncretic, so it's

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Speaker 1: like there's versions of Sibylly that are also Rhea. There's

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Speaker 1: meter and matter and Materire and all this other stuff.

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Speaker 1: Classic trans, I know, just changing their name whenever they

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Speaker 1: go to a new country, they're like, oh, I'm actually

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Speaker 1: named Hummingbird here. Like, look, we know you're non binary.

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Speaker 3: And we have to respect it.

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Speaker 1: I know, I know. We just put our heads down

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Speaker 1: and say, yes, your name is Flywheel.

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Speaker 2: You're gonna get hate mail from some non binary person

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Speaker 2: who is named Hummingbird and their partner Flywheel.

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Speaker 1: I know. But you know what, I love both of you.

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Speaker 1: I'm so proud of you living your Best Life, Flywheel,

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Speaker 1: and Hummingbird. So that's who we're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: this week, and first we're going to talk about Sumer.

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Speaker 1: Sumer is the oldest known civilization by some standards, or

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Speaker 1: the oldest known urban civilization by other standards, and because

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Speaker 1: sometimes urban is necessary to count a civilization. It is

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Speaker 1: a region in what's now Iraq. And I don't want

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Speaker 1: to get into the weeds about where people think the

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Speaker 1: Sumerians came from, because the weeds about where classical era

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Speaker 1: and antiquity people came from, those are weeds that people

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Speaker 1: spend their careers.

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Speaker 3: You have fote everyone knows.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they actually came from UFOs. Yeah totally. Sumer

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Speaker 1: was around from roughly fifty five hundred BCE to eighteen

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Speaker 1: hundred BCE, so it's around for a long as time,

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Speaker 1: way longer than Oh, I don't know the American experiment,

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Speaker 1: which only lasted two hundred and fifty years. That died

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty six. And I'd say rest in peace

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Speaker 1: if I was going to say.

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Speaker 3: Rest in peace, and then I stopped myself.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. Oh, watching the White House get torn down

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Speaker 1: and be like this is bad. I don't want to

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Speaker 1: watch the parts of the White House get torn down

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Speaker 1: by someone that I hate.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I wanted to get torn down by someone that

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Speaker 2: I love.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. I wanted to become the place where we

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Speaker 1: all start having collective decision made.

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Speaker 2: Someone was like, this is maybe bad and if it is,

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Speaker 2: cut it, but someone was like, wow, Trump finished the job.

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Speaker 2: The nine to eleven hijackers couldn't.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, anyway, I don't even disagree with whatever. It's fucking

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Speaker 1: nightmare world we live in. You all live in the future.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's only next week's future, but maybe it's the

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Speaker 1: far future. Who knows, But we live in the future.

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Speaker 1: To Sumer. Sumer had some gods. The most important one

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Speaker 1: was Anana or a Nani, who merged into the later ishtar.

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Speaker 1: Who's the one I had like more heard of? Right?

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah.

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Speaker 1: Anana was the queen of heaven and Anana could build

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Speaker 1: and destroy. Anana was the god of sex and war

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Speaker 1: and of changing people's genders. Her high priestesses of whatever

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Speaker 1: gender will get that lived in er the Erth City,

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Speaker 1: and in twenty three hundred BCE, a high priestess of

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Speaker 1: Anana named Enna Duwana wrote a hymn and part of

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Speaker 1: that hymn is to destroy, to build, to lift up,

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Speaker 1: to put down. Are yours anana to turn man into woman,

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Speaker 1: woman into man? Are yours anana that is so metal,

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Speaker 1: is not subtle.

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Speaker 3: That is so cool?

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Speaker 2: I know, Oh my god, I know. Put it to

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Speaker 2: throw pillow baby, put it in my house.

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Speaker 1: Yeah fuck yes.

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Speaker 3: Some trans womin right now is like anana. That sounds good.

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Speaker 1: Actually, I know. It's probably three different trans women solo

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Speaker 1: black metal projects, and you know what, I'll listen to

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Speaker 1: two of them.

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Speaker 3: I commit to the third.

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Speaker 1: Okay, awesome. Her priests were gender non conforming and also

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Speaker 1: in multiple directions, but not necessarily. It wasn't like Sibley,

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Speaker 1: who we're gonna talk about later, had like a transculta

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Speaker 1: of trans women. Anana is more like there's just stuff

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Speaker 1: non conforming happening with the gender of her priests. Anana

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Speaker 1: herself often changed her followers sex. There was like the

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Speaker 1: performers of one of her festivals were raised as girls

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Speaker 1: and then women, but then they were handed spears as

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Speaker 1: though they were men. There's all kinds of myths about

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Speaker 1: her changing people's genders. There's a statuette of a singer

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Speaker 1: with female characteristics and a male name or non sha

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Speaker 1: and it is dedicated to a nana. And so these figurines,

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Speaker 1: as best as I can tell, they're not like what

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Speaker 1: I would have assumed, Like these figurines were kind of

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Speaker 1: like of specific people by and large in this era.

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Speaker 1: So it was like, here's someone named Ernance who was

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Speaker 1: a singer, who was probably an afab person with a

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Speaker 1: male name, and we made them a doll. Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: people make dolls of people.

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Speaker 3: Oh that's nice.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And then there's the gala or the ga la

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Speaker 1: because it's written in cuneiform and so it's often written

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Speaker 1: in academic articles as like all caps ga lak. But

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Speaker 1: I'm going to call them the gala just to make

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Speaker 1: it really confusing because later I'm gonna talk about the galley.

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Speaker 2: But pay attention, guys. Yeah, start taking notes now and

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Speaker 2: the gala. And this is a fucking cool thing that

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Speaker 2: we need to somehow bring back. I don't know how

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Speaker 2: we're gonna I don't want to start in a new religion.

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Speaker 2: That's the problem with any of this.

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Speaker 1: These gala are the lamentation singers. They are the priestesses

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Speaker 1: who sing her holy wrath and sorrow, and at first

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Speaker 1: they're all CIS women because there's this dialect called emmy cell,

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Speaker 1: which is the specific dialect in that language for women

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Speaker 1: who are speaking for female gods. So it's like I

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Speaker 1: am talking god talk, right, this is so cool. I know,

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Speaker 1: I got really excited about this.

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Speaker 3: This is so cool.

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Speaker 2: Oh, the singers of the lamentations continue, we are that

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Speaker 2: as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And then men, I guess started joining the Gala,

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Speaker 1: and they took on women's names, and they spoke in

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Speaker 1: the divine dialect of women goddesses. And people can't necessarily say, like,

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Speaker 1: vis are trans women the way that we can later

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Speaker 1: say about the Gully, because we know a lot more

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Speaker 1: about the social function and stuff, right. The Gala were like,

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Speaker 1: well we know this much, right, And these priestesses of

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Speaker 1: whatever gender whatever, they were well thought of. They took

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Speaker 1: care of the sick and the poor, and there were

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Speaker 1: sistant trans women alike or whatever the fuck. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: men and women alike. I don't really care. Also, there

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Speaker 1: was something that the Gala were specifically known for represented

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Speaker 1: in art, and that is fucking men in the ass.

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Speaker 2: I was literally about to be like big fat asses.

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Speaker 2: I was literally about to make like a joke like that,

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Speaker 2: and then that was true.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of writing about how the Gala priests

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Speaker 1: priestesses loved dudes buttholes, and wow, it's that's notable because

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Speaker 1: later assumptions about trans women have us all as bottoms

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Speaker 1: and it's not true.

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Speaker 3: It's certainly not true.

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Speaker 1: You spend enough time in subculture and you don't think that.

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Speaker 2: But they always think that. You know, trans men are bottoms.

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Speaker 2: Gay trans men or bottoms, and I'd like to represent

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Speaker 2: that they are not.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: No, uh, it takes a certain a certain spirit to

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Speaker 1: decide to come out as trans in a culture that

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Speaker 1: wants to kill you.

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Speaker 3: Right, yeah, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: Well, then it doesn't take a certain spirit to be

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Speaker 1: a bottom. I'm not talking shit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's the CIS women butchers who are bottoms exclusively,

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Speaker 2: and everyone knows.

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Speaker 3: That we're fine tails out of school.

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Speaker 2: They're gonna lock us up because they're gonna be like,

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Speaker 2: you guys, can't be telling Sis people this stuff.

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Speaker 3: I know.

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Speaker 1: I know. Well, if you're listening, Anana has made you trans.

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Speaker 1: And what's interesting here with the Gala consumer is there's

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Speaker 1: no evidence that these folks were changing themselves physically. There's

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Speaker 1: no evidence that they castrated themselves. There's an implication that

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Speaker 1: they didn't because they liked fucking dudes in the bottom,

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Speaker 1: although you know who knows you can still do that

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Speaker 1: if you want. But it is possible that they were

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Speaker 1: castrating themselves. This is like a time and place where

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Speaker 1: Unichs are a thing and stuff, you know, but their

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Speaker 1: gender is changing, and various pieces of art indicate that

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Speaker 1: it wasn't just the Gala who are non conforming an

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Speaker 1: ancient sumer. But do you know what will also transgender?

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Speaker 1: Is it products and services? That's right, I don't know

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Speaker 1: by what means, but the very next ad you hear

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Speaker 1: is responsible for the corruption of the youth in the

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Speaker 1: United States.

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Speaker 3: It's Jumba Casino.

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Speaker 2: I know too much about this show.

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Speaker 1: And here's that, and we're back and so all across

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Speaker 1: what gets called the Near East but might be better

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Speaker 1: term Southwest Asia, there's culture after culture practicing some form

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Speaker 1: of divine transgenderism or whatever the fuck you want to

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Speaker 1: call it. Some historians, although I think they're outliers, they

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Speaker 1: were at least outliers in two thousand and five when

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Speaker 1: I read the piece that I read that talked about this.

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Speaker 1: The most was an academic paper in the show notes

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Speaker 1: that talked about this. Historians, at least in two thousand

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Speaker 1: and five mostly didn't think that there's a direct through

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Speaker 1: line from the Gala consumer to the Galley in Rome,

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Speaker 1: and the similarities in names is generally assumed to be

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Speaker 1: a coincidence. But historians have been like, well, if it

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Speaker 1: was a through line, this is what it would look like. Okay,

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Speaker 1: But there are certainly a bunch of goddesses in the

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Speaker 1: ancient you know, Southwest Asian world who had gender nonconforming priestesses.

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Speaker 1: Most of these gods were specifically associated with wildness and nature,

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Speaker 1: and most of them were known to incite a sort

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Speaker 1: of divine madness into their followers. Go on, I know, no,

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Speaker 1: this is a whole, big part of it, Like, okay,

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Speaker 1: whole trans women are crazy bitches thing which I will

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Speaker 1: neither confirm nor deny. Wow. But notably and importantly, these

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Speaker 1: various goddesses in Southwest Asia weren't necessarily even though there

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Speaker 1: are earth goddesses of wilderness and nature, they are not

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Speaker 1: necessarily goddesses of fertility. And modern paganism has this unfortunate tendency.

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Speaker 1: At least the stuff I've scene to sort of claim

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Speaker 1: that there's this simple divine feminine at work, often represented

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Speaker 1: by the Greek goddess Gaya, who is the mother Earth

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Speaker 1: figure sure, and in this Mother Earth is like kind

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Speaker 1: and feminine and into fertility. H And when I researched

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Speaker 1: Slavic gods for a different project that I don't have

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Speaker 1: my notes in front of me because it was a

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Speaker 1: band with a friend who is from that region of

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Speaker 1: the world, I found that goddesses of fertility tended to

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Speaker 1: be not very peaceful or nice in at least Slavic culture.

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Speaker 1: And again, it might be lots of places, it's the

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Speaker 1: only place I can speak to.

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Speaker 2: I mean, they always tie sex to war a lot,

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Speaker 2: like a lot it's times, you know, fertility whatever. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: sex and war are kind of mostly tied together.

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Speaker 1: Death and rot and sex are incredibly intertwined in our psyche,

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Speaker 1: and I think that's cool as shit. But these Near

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Speaker 1: East goddesses of the earth, at least some of them,

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Speaker 1: they were goddess of the earth and nature and wilderness,

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Speaker 1: but not fertility. And unlike Gaya, who was a goddess

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Speaker 1: of fertility and whatever. One source I read included the

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Speaker 1: Hindu goddess Bakura Mata as one of these sort of

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Speaker 1: gods of nature, et cetera, from this kind of region,

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Speaker 1: and she's not maternal at all. In some versions of

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Speaker 1: the world. She cut off her breasts because she wanted

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Speaker 1: nothing to do with sex is one of the things

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Speaker 1: about her.

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Speaker 3: Nice.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, right, yeah exactly. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Uh that's like when cis women friends of mine are like, ugh,

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Speaker 2: you know, I hate boobs or whatever. My aunt's always like,

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Speaker 2: oh they're so I'm like, get rid of them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you just get rid of them.

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Speaker 3: Stop complaining.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it turns out your secondary sex characteristics are very

435
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:43,479
Speaker 1: mutable if you know the right thing.

436
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, you get rid of them if you don't want them.

437
00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:49,199
Speaker 1: Yeah. The number of people I know who don't have

438
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:51,760
Speaker 1: nipples anymore, you can, just to be clear, if anyone

439
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 1: doesn't know, you can keep your nipples. But the number

440
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:56,240
Speaker 1: of people I know who are like, man, I didn't

441
00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:57,359
Speaker 1: even want that part either.

442
00:22:57,880 --> 00:22:59,640
Speaker 3: I Oh my god, Margaret.

443
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:04,000
Speaker 2: I So I was at my top surgery and I'm like,

444
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 2: it's the morning of the doctor's like drawing where things

445
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:08,960
Speaker 2: are gonna go whatever, and he's like, where do you

446
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:10,439
Speaker 2: want me to place the nipples? And I was like,

447
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,040
Speaker 2: where do I want you to place the nipples? Where

448
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:14,919
Speaker 2: are you placing them? He was like, oh, people have

449
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:16,960
Speaker 2: different you know. Sometimes people want a mail chest, sometimes

450
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,320
Speaker 2: they want them in more. Sometimes they don't want nipples

451
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:21,199
Speaker 2: at all. That's like a trend for the young people.

452
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:23,879
Speaker 2: And I was so thrown off. I literally went, oh, no,

453
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,199
Speaker 2: I'll just have like regular millennial nipples.

454
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 1: Please. You got them millennial nipples, just.

455
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,040
Speaker 3: Sort of the boring millennial nipples. Please.

456
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,480
Speaker 1: They didn't tattoo freckles on your face while you're under.

457
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 2: Right, exactly? I wake up, I have those star acne stickers.

458
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 2: I'm like, how did this hapend?

459
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, so clearly there's representations of a lot of secondary

460
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 1: sex characteristics being changed. I am not going to talk

461
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,120
Speaker 1: very much in this episode about how Hindu gods tie

462
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 1: into this. The answer is that they kind of do.

463
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 1: In the Hezra of South Asia do tie into this,

464
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:05,360
Speaker 1: this legally distinct third sex that, in a simplistic way,

465
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:07,960
Speaker 1: you could say is a transfeminine culture. And in North

466
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 1: India the Heesra tend to be followers of Bekuramata. Okay,

467
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 1: but again, not an expert at all. It just I

468
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 1: want to acknowledge that there is a tie there without

469
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 1: pretending like I'm a scholar of that yet, because I

470
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,239
Speaker 1: slowly will piece me, I'll find my way through all

471
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,399
Speaker 1: of history. So there's a lot of gender nonconformity in

472
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,360
Speaker 1: South and Southwest Asia, probably elsewhere. But this is where

473
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:33,400
Speaker 1: I'm gonna talk about right now. And this brings us

474
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:38,639
Speaker 1: to Phrygia. I literally didn't know Phrygia as a place.

475
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 1: I just knew it was a scale of music.

476
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,160
Speaker 3: Oh I'm finding out right now that it's both.

477
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:45,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is both.

478
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 3: Yeah.

479
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,680
Speaker 1: What did you come into this knowing about Phrygia place

480
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:50,399
Speaker 1: or music or neither?

481
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:51,200
Speaker 4: No.

482
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,440
Speaker 3: Zero, that's the first time I've ever heard this word

483
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 3: in my life.

484
00:24:53,880 --> 00:25:00,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's phrygi a Nope, would have never got there. Yeah.

485
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 1: So sumer is not an Indo European culture, at least

486
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 1: from language point of view. A lot of the cultures

487
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,120
Speaker 1: that I've talked about lately have been Indo European cultures,

488
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,959
Speaker 1: which is this language and legal structure that reached all

489
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 1: the way from Ireland to India. Oh, and so that's

490
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:23,120
Speaker 1: why there's weird overlaps linguistically and legally between literally Ireland

491
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:27,679
Speaker 1: and India, and so Sumer is not Indo European. The

492
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 1: next folks we're talking about, the Phrygians. They are the

493
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 1: closest language to Ephrygian is Greek.

494
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:33,119
Speaker 3: Oh okay.

495
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 1: They lived in Western Anatolia, which is again Turkey, way

496
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 1: back in the day. And once again I'm not going

497
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 1: to touch though. Where did they come from? How did

498
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 1: they get their debate with a ten foot or three

499
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 1: thousand year pole. Like most people we talk about, they

500
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:53,400
Speaker 1: weren't really a single culture or language, but a general

501
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,439
Speaker 1: grouping of various folks. They're similar enough for people to

502
00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:01,679
Speaker 1: call them Frygians, and the main into them culturally, at

503
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 1: least by name, is the Phrygian mode of music, which

504
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 1: I like music theory, but not enough to try and

505
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 1: wrap my head around the three different Phrygian modes to

506
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 1: explain all of them on air. It is halfway between

507
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 1: major and minor sounding Okay, the what are they making this?

508
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 1: What are they using? Just insurance that they make Yeah, okay,

509
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 1: so this actually gets into I don't know enough about

510
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 1: the history of music theory yet, but for example, a

511
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,719
Speaker 1: way of playing a Phrygian mode is if you sit

512
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:32,640
Speaker 1: in front of a piano and you plus only white

513
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 1: keys from D to D instead of okay, like C

514
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,119
Speaker 1: two C is C major. A to A is a

515
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 1: minor with no sharps or flats, just all white keys.

516
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 1: D to D is what I would have called d Dorian,

517
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 1: but Dorian Phrygian or related modes. But there's also a

518
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 1: million types of Phrygian. But so what that means is

519
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:55,639
Speaker 1: that some of the intervals sound major and some of

520
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: them sound minor, and it gets at this kind of

521
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:05,439
Speaker 1: like kind of beautifully disc thing and this style of music,

522
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 1: this mode was considered wild and untamed and warlike by

523
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 1: the Greeks, and this idea that the Phrygians represent like

524
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 1: a wild, untamable people. This is like the main orientalism

525
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 1: that is going to tie into this story. Whereas like

526
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 1: British people in the eighteenth century were like Greece, that's

527
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 1: the orients. Fuck yeah, people in ancient Greece were like Phrygia.

528
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,880
Speaker 1: Holy shit, I think, And at least in terms of

529
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 1: this is going to tie into the goddess worship that

530
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about.

531
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 3: Okay, okay, I'm following.

532
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 1: The most famous Phrygian is probably King Midas, who the

533
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: guy turns everything. Like literally about that guy, Yeah, literally,

534
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 1: one of the there's gonna be a part of the

535
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:51,919
Speaker 1: story that happens in Midas City.

536
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 3: Did he was that real?

537
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 1: I don't know shit about him. I'm sure he didn't

538
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,199
Speaker 1: turn things into gold. I feel reasonably confident about that,

539
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 1: but I do not know shit about him. They had

540
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 1: a main god, the Phrygians. They called her the Stone

541
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,639
Speaker 1: Mother or matar kublea mother Earth.

542
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 3: That's coolest shit too.

543
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:15,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, absolutely, and she sort of predates the arrival

544
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 1: of the Phrygians. I think she was kind of like

545
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:20,959
Speaker 1: the god of the area when the Hittites who were

546
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: there before the Phrygians. Yeah, we're doing their thing. And

547
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 1: the Stone Mother is the god of nature. She protects

548
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 1: young girls and also cities. In Phrygia, she's usually shown

549
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 1: with birds of prey, but occasionally she's shown with lions.

550
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 1: And that's important because both Anana is shown with lions

551
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 1: and later Sybilly, who is the Stone Mother but in

552
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: Greece and Rome is going to get lions again as

553
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 1: a symbol, but the Phrygian one is much more of

554
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 1: a bird of prey kind of lady.

555
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 3: So in terms of.

556
00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 2: Their lives revolving around these gods. Are they praying to them?

557
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 2: Are they sacrificing to them? Is everybody? It's always interesting,

558
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 2: like how independently the idea of gods just like.

559
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 1: Pops up in so many different places, in so.

560
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 2: Many different places, Like they're like, my goodness, you know what,

561
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 2: we're all thinking, there's gotta be something up there.

562
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 1: I am still trying to work my way through how

563
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: I feel about this. I feel like I've been trying

564
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: for a couple of years now to better understand the

565
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 1: development of religion, especially as turns into monotheism and stuff

566
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, I am under the impression that overall

567
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: in this area, you're gonna have basically like towns have

568
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 1: like their god. Yeah, like, oh, this is our god

569
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 1: and it's often physically represented by like an idol or something. Later,

570
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 1: there's gonna be a physical representation of Mattair that's going

571
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 1: to go to Rome and that's gonna be a big

572
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 1: important thing. Okay, So it's kind of like and I

573
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 1: don't know how this relates to matt or Anana, but

574
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 1: there'd be like kind of like, oh, we're gonna go

575
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 1: capture our enemy's mascot in football.

576
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, okay, interesting, Okay, that makes it make more sense.

577
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 1: And I am interested in how because this is where

578
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 1: the religions that dominate about half the world come from.

579
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 1: We tend to think of religion in these contexts, but

580
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 1: you also see like animism and like pantheism and all

581
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: of these other things. And then just like total other

582
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 1: ways of understanding religion in different places, like I don't

583
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 1: know a ton about a lot of different places, but

584
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 1: I know that like pagan Finland didn't really have gods

585
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 1: the way that like the Germanic gods of like Norway

586
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 1: and shit were like hello, I am God, man, I

587
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 1: have a hammer right right In Finland, it was like

588
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 1: everything is God. I don't know if you're talking about

589
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 1: that bear over there. We're really into bears over here,

590
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: you know. And and then you get a lot of

591
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: places that are like, no, we're much more interested in

592
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 1: like local spirits, like there's a spirit to this river,

593
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 1: and you better appease it to get what you want.

594
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 1: There's just so many differ ways of understanding it, and

595
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 1: I don't totally understand. I don't. This is my way

596
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 1: of saying I don't know how the Phrygian saul God

597
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 1: and God's.

598
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 2: It's just interesting to be like, there's got to be

599
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 2: some bigger thing and maybe we'll give it some accoutrement. Yeah,

600
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 2: and we'll say it has a name, and it's just

601
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 2: very interesting.

602
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 1: I think that we all try to come up with

603
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:25,479
Speaker 1: metaphors by which to understand unknowable things. Yeah, and different

604
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: cultures are gonna have different metaphors that make sense to them.

605
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,959
Speaker 1: And I think certain cultures, a lot of cultures are

606
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 1: gonna be like the metaphors like a lady we can't see,

607
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 1: you know, yeah yeah, And in other places the metaphor

608
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 1: is going to be like math or I don't know,

609
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 1: like yeah, yeah, yeah, that's again my best bet. But okay,

610
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 1: we don't know a ton about the worship of Mater

611
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 1: in Phrygia, specifically as relates to gender variants. She is

612
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 1: the one who's going to have a trans cult soon,

613
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 1: but there is tentative evidence that she was always down

614
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 1: with the teaselers, and I actually wrote teestlers into the

615
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 1: script and then I was like, ah, whatever, I'm not

616
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 1: dealing with this. The main evidence we have that there's

617
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 1: probably gender variants before besides the fact that like kind

618
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 1: of why wouldn't there be, because it's a big part

619
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:21,959
Speaker 1: of her culture. As soon as she crosses over right

620
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 1: into Europe proper, there's two figurines of her worshippers, and

621
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 1: again these are like probably representations of specific people. And

622
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 1: one is ivory and one is silver, and they represent

623
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 1: two specific people. And one of them has breasts and

624
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 1: hips and is shown with two children, and the other

625
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 1: one is in silver, is dressed identically in rich feminine

626
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 1: clothes but has no breasts and narrow hips and still

627
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 1: has no beard. And there are some statues that are

628
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: beardless boys, but this one is features that are like

629
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 1: mature to distinguish it from like young boy statues. So

630
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 1: it is a beardless adult male where in women's clothes.

631
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 1: Who is a worshiper of Mater?

632
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 2: You know about the saints, there's like that saint. He's

633
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 2: called Wilgefortis.

634
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the one in my head is called Wiggles

635
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 1: because I can never remember.

636
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 2: And that I left so hard because I was researching that,

637
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 2: and I left so hard because it was like they

638
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 2: thought maybe someone just made like a really bootlicious carving

639
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 2: of Jesus, and people were like, whoa, this Jesus is

640
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 2: asked is way too fat.

641
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 3: This has got to be a different thing.

642
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 2: So then they were like, oh that's not that's not

643
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 2: fat ass Jesus, that's wilgefortis totally different person transmit.

644
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 3: That's totally different important. Yeah. Oh that's not yasified Jesus.

645
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 3: That's a different thing.

646
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, It's so interesting, how like, because cultures use

647
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 1: symbols to represent, like, you know, like the fucking like

648
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 1: bathroom signs right, like right, you know, because I'm like, wow,

649
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 1: plenty of people like because you can look at this

650
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: and be like, ah, I know plenty of you know,

651
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 1: cis women who have narrow hips and no breasts right right,

652
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 1: and like you're like, yeah, but it's an art representation

653
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 1: and so like much like when I had a beard

654
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 1: but was wearing a skirt, I was not expected to

655
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 1: use the drawing of the person with the skirt in

656
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 1: terms of what bathroom to use. That was always my argument.

657
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,840
Speaker 1: When I was a little aggressive crosspunk in women's clothes,

658
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 1: I was like, well, that one has the drawing of

659
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 1: me on it.

660
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 3: That's so good. That's so good. I love that.

661
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 1: And so this silver statue of a priestess who's I'm

662
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,839
Speaker 1: just gonna call priestess whatever. Yeah, wearing women's clothes. She's

663
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 1: presented as calm and collected, and since she's made of

664
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 1: silver and wearing rich garb, it's likely that she has

665
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 1: a high status in society. And both of these things,

666
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 1: being calm and being high status are specific notable differences

667
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 1: from the later galley in the West, because the later

668
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 1: galley in the West are like crazy ladies who are

669
00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,879
Speaker 1: ecstatic and are also like ostracized by society. So there's

670
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,799
Speaker 1: this kind of implication, like if you read between the

671
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 1: lines of the stuff I'm reading, I think one of

672
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 1: the things that they're saying is that once these priestesses

673
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,840
Speaker 1: make their way to the West, they have to be

674
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 1: seen as like crazy women, right, And because Greece and

675
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 1: Rome are substantially more patriarchal cultures, and so to like, okay,

676
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:25,280
Speaker 1: like why would a man give up? Like, y'all, people

677
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 1: can understand, of course, someone wants to be a man,

678
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 1: that's the good gener but someone wanting to be the

679
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 1: bad gender must be fucked in the head.

680
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 2: Sure, you know, yeah, And that has changed so significantly.

681
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 3: I'm so glad. Nobody feels that way anymore.

682
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that'd be a nightmare world for everyone of

683
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 1: all five main genders. I don't know, whatever, it's so

684
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 1: cool that we got rid of that. Yeah, yeah, gender

685
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 1: is a prison anyway. Also in Midas City in western Phrygia,

686
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 1: there's an art motif that wasn't common anywhere else but

687
00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 1: this one place. And it would be two figures of

688
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 1: indeterminate sex who are side by side, probably as Matar's

689
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 1: as attendants. Oh and so it's like possible that this

690
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 1: town might have had this burgeoning non binary you know,

691
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 1: cult thing going on.

692
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,840
Speaker 2: It might not, oh like that those would be depictions

693
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:17,800
Speaker 2: of actual people.

694
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, potentially, but it that one, you know, we don't know, right.

695
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 1: And also in Frigia, she probably had a specific attendant

696
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:31,760
Speaker 1: named Attis or that was the name of a priest class.

697
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:33,840
Speaker 1: And we'll talk more about Adis later, but before we

698
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:36,839
Speaker 1: talk about Atis or Greece, what I want to talk

699
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 1: to you about. You used to run a podcast about

700
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 1: saving money, Is that right?

701
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 3: Yes? Why?

702
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 1: Well, if you want to do well financially, you could

703
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:53,400
Speaker 1: do no worse than buying everything. That is No, this

704
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 1: is a lie. I can't even finish the sentence we

705
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 1: have no control over our advertisers.

706
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,879
Speaker 2: It's not always things that are advertised something. It's just like, hey,

707
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:02,799
Speaker 2: here's an idea. Have you thought about it?

708
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:05,439
Speaker 3: And then you're like, oh, I'm so glad someone paid

709
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 3: for that.

710
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 1: I know, like potatoes. Is that what you're trying to

711
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 1: get at? Like the idea of a potato?

712
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 2: Just something like that where it'll be like, you know,

713
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 2: the ad will just be what do they call it?

714
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 1: Awareness ads? Oh yeah, I really liked. For a while

715
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:18,759
Speaker 1: I was getting on cool Zone media. I was getting

716
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 1: a lot of ads for like go to the woods

717
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:22,919
Speaker 1: with your family and friends, which I think was paid

718
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:26,359
Speaker 1: for by monsters, not metaphorical one, but literal ones who

719
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 1: want to kill people in the woods. Again, not people,

720
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 1: but like shimeras and stuff, you know, the people who

721
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 1: the balls, monsters and stuff. Who else would pay for

722
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 1: an ad to go to the woods besides the creepy

723
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 1: things that live in the woods that want to kill

724
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 1: people who go in the woods.

725
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 2: I thought, I was like monster energy, drink peop No, no, yeah,

726
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 2: unless actually big monster is this?

727
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, well apparently we have to go to ads, so

728
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 1: we will ruminate on this no more and we're back.

729
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 1: So Fridgie is pretty tied into Greece. Greek is that's

730
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:05,760
Speaker 1: likely his closest language cousin. By the sixth century BCE,

731
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 1: matar worship starts showing up in Greece, but her name changes.

732
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 1: She's not Matar or meter like she was before, which

733
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 1: emphasized the mother part of her name, like stone mother.

734
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 1: Now she's Kaibelli, which is going to become Sibilly in Rome.

735
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 1: And I'm just gonna use Sibylly from here on out

736
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 1: because it's the only one I'm certain about the pronunciation of.

737
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 1: And Sibylly is coming from the stone part of her name.

738
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,239
Speaker 1: The Greeks give her a Greek spin, and specifically a

739
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:37,439
Speaker 1: kind of orientalist spin now, like she was already about

740
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:41,720
Speaker 1: the untamable wilds, but now she's like the fucking wild lady,

741
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 1: specifically associated with ecstatic dancing uh, which is like where

742
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 1: you like lose your mind to the music. Mm hmmm.

743
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 1: And she's given a Yeah, she's given a tympanum, which

744
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:54,799
Speaker 1: is a little hand DRUMI hold in one hand and

745
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:58,319
Speaker 1: you play it ok. And this was never associated with

746
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 1: her in Phrygia, but it harken back to the Hittites

747
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:05,360
Speaker 1: and is specifically associated with ecstatic dancing. So I think

748
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:10,479
Speaker 1: it's basically been like, oh yeah, those crazy Easterners, they're

749
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 1: like crazy and wild with their hand drums. So she

750
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: has a hand drum, now, you know.

751
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 2: Okay, So the idea was was ecstatic dancing seen as

752
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 2: like a little bit scary.

753
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, And also ecstatic dancing was associated with self wounding,

754
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 1: self castration, and being wild and uncontrolled and changing your gender.

755
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,799
Speaker 2: I mean, listen, if the shoe fits, I know, I know,

756
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 2: I'm problem with this, If the sandal fit, yeah, huh,

757
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:39,400
Speaker 2: I gotta go.

758
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 1: And if the other party you doesn't want to fit,

759
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 1: it doesn't fit and you want to get rid of it.

760
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 1: So at the same time, she also gets a more

761
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:48,799
Speaker 1: urban side of her, and she becomes the god of

762
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 1: cities as well as of the wild. And this is

763
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 1: probably basically like Greek. I'm always terrified to use the

764
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 1: word elites. Anthropologists use the words elites all the time

765
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 1: to describe the powerful people in society, but obviously there

766
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,840
Speaker 1: is different connotations in the modern world. But the Greek

767
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 1: elites of society are trying to tame her, They're trying

768
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 1: to like bring her under control. This is going to

769
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 1: be especially Truman in Rome. Later they can't no, I mean,

770
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:21,360
Speaker 1: well they kind of do. It's ah, it's okay whatever, Okay.

771
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 1: She moves up with the big kids. She gets a

772
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 1: temple in the Agora in Athens, and she is a

773
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:29,720
Speaker 1: big deal. All of a sudden, the Greeks mass produce

774
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 1: figurines of her.

775
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 4: OOO.

776
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 1: And in these figurines she's sitting down on a throne

777
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 1: held up by two lions, just probably not a conscious

778
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 1: reference to Anna. And she has that hand drum in

779
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 1: her hand. And the oldest written hymn about her says,

780
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 1: this isn't a trance thing, It's just a wildness thing.

781
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 1: To the Mother of all gods, To the Mother of

782
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 1: all gods and human beings, sing to me, clear toned muse,

783
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:58,320
Speaker 1: the daughter of the Great Zeus. The resounding of rattles

784
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 1: and timpana, and the roar of flo please her, and

785
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:05,880
Speaker 1: clamor of wolves and flashing eyed lions, the echoing mountains

786
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 1: and the wooded valleys. And thus rejoice you and all

787
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 1: goddesses who join together in song. Wow.

788
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 2: So she just like comes over and becomes like the

789
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 2: main pop giry.

790
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and kind of in like a way where it's

791
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 1: like coming up from the streets.

792
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, she's not a nepo, but well she's Deuced's.

793
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 1: Daughter, I guess, yeah, but they kind of add that later, right, right,

794
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:34,319
Speaker 1: What was that about? Well, part of it is that

795
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:37,920
Speaker 1: like they're gonna this whole idea, Like when I was

796
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 1: a kid, I loved like books of like this is

797
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 1: all the gods of Greece or whatever.

798
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 2: Right of course you wear trans yeah, yeah, love that shit.

799
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 1: Yeah.

800
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:46,320
Speaker 3: Did you also like Asian Egypt?

801
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, uh huh, but mostly castles, but yeah, I did

802
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 1: have that Pyramids book. Those books will tend to lay out,

803
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 1: at least the ones for kids will tend to lay

804
00:41:55,560 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 1: out like here's the family tree, here's what each of

805
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 1: these things is, as if there's a definitive answer. But

806
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:04,799
Speaker 1: if you actually look, and this is true for the

807
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 1: Norse gods as well, and I suspect it's true for

808
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:08,399
Speaker 1: lots of places, but I've only kind of looked about

809
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 1: Greece and the Germanic Norse gods. But these are large

810
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 1: places over the course of thousands of years, okay, and

811
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:22,360
Speaker 1: it's going to change constantly, And so like Sibilly is

812
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 1: like she's somehow the mother of all gods and the

813
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 1: daughter of a god like in just that one hymn,

814
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 1: and like she's going to be other gods at different times,

815
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:34,439
Speaker 1: and they're all going to change names with each other,

816
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 1: and shit.

817
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:36,720
Speaker 3: It's like a daytime soap opera.

818
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, you just gotta get with whatever family tree

819
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:41,720
Speaker 2: they've got at that moment.

820
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:44,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely fascinating.

821
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think between clamor of wolves and uncontrolled music,

822
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:48,920
Speaker 1: she would have fucking loved black metal.

823
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:52,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, she sounds dope.

824
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:55,360
Speaker 2: I mean they're describing her like they're pleading for her

825
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 2: like help and favor, but they're all so scared of her.

826
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:03,800
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I mean, like I think that's kind of God. Yeah,

827
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 2: classic God. But she is in contrast with the other

828
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:12,720
Speaker 2: big Greek mother goddess, Gaya, whose actual name is gay

829
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 2: Wow is ge but it's pronounced gay and wow Guia.

830
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 2: At least at one particular time that this is being

831
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:25,360
Speaker 2: talked about, Gaia is like fields covered with cows and

832
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 2: obedient children and fertility and wealth, while Meter is more

833
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:35,879
Speaker 2: about wilderness than fertility or obedience and so like which

834
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 2: way Western woman tradwife or wild motherfucker? Yes, Oh my god,

835
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 2: it's the same dichotomy that has existed forever.

836
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,400
Speaker 1: And right wing women want to hold on to femininity

837
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 1: as docile or whatever the fuck. And it's something that

838
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 1: has come up a couple times on this show that

839
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:58,240
Speaker 1: medieval European misogynistic view of women differs from the modern

840
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:02,440
Speaker 1: misogynistic view of women, which I think started with the Victorians.

841
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:05,320
Speaker 1: Now people talk about women as like meek and docile

842
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,440
Speaker 1: and indecisive or whatever. The medieval conception of is that

843
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 1: we are fucking wild and uncontrollable and violent and uncivilized.

844
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 3: Wow.

845
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 1: And these are both misogynistic stereotypes and I like the

846
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:16,319
Speaker 1: old one better.

847
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:17,759
Speaker 3: Well.

848
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so interesting because the idea is that like

849
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 2: men are sort of painted that way in like a

850
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:30,360
Speaker 2: positive They're like, these are the traits I need to

851
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:34,760
Speaker 2: be a politician, yeah, or a CEO or like a

852
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 2: military general.

853
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 3: Just has to make the tough decisions.

854
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:43,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, And like if a woman possesses that, then that's

855
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:47,360
Speaker 2: like their original personality that was bad.

856
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:49,400
Speaker 1: I know, it's like you ate the apple and so

857
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 1: it's your fucking fault forever.

858
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like how pink used to be.

859
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:58,279
Speaker 1: A Yeah, totally, totally everything is gonna switch constantly, and like,

860
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:01,920
Speaker 1: there's this thing that came up. I did an episode

861
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 1: about mutual aid, and.

862
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 3: Hm, I listened to it.

863
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:07,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so in it I talked about how Kerpawk Cain,

864
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:11,239
Speaker 1: you know, the biologist who sort of discovers mutual aid

865
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:13,880
Speaker 1: in the same way that Darwin discovered competition both like

866
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:19,360
Speaker 1: evolutionary biologists. And this dude Huxley who's the grandfather of

867
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:25,240
Speaker 1: the good Huxley, eldest, bad Huxley, whatever, middle Huxley is like, oh,

868
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:28,319
Speaker 1: some people are taking Darwinism and thinking we should all

869
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 1: fuck each other over. I'm going to take Darwinism and

870
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 1: say we must fight against our animal nature and become civilized,

871
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 1: and we must learn how to control our base instincts.

872
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 1: And that scene is the modern dichotomy. And like masculinity,

873
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 1: right is the like, oh, you're an animal underneath, but

874
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 1: you can contain it in your suit. Yeah, And Kroppawkin

875
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:53,400
Speaker 1: comes in swinging, being like, hey, do you know what

876
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: animals actually do more? They like take care of each other.

877
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 1: So y'all just like built a shitty dichotomy where they

878
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:01,759
Speaker 1: didn't he to be one and we should actually right

879
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 1: be the uncivilized thing, but the good uncivilized thing where

880
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:06,400
Speaker 1: we take care of each other.

881
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:10,680
Speaker 2: Right, like trad wife, It's like, okay, interesting, what tradition

882
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 2: are we Yeah, totally, what tradition are we following? Is

883
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 2: it the one where everybody used to cook for each other?

884
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:17,919
Speaker 2: Like just wondering, No, it's not that one.

885
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:22,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, totally. So Sibilly is now in Greece, and

886
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 1: the impression I get is she's popular among the people

887
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 1: but criticized by the elite. I'm not one hundred percent

888
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 1: certain on that. That is my inference based on a

889
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 1: bunch of different texts. Okay, there's no known written records

890
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:36,319
Speaker 1: by any of her trans priests, so we only have

891
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 1: almost everything we know about her trans priests because our

892
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 1: priests are trans. But we'll get to that soon. They

893
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 1: might not have started off trans, but they're definitely gonna

894
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:46,839
Speaker 1: end up trans. We have people talking shit and satirizing.

895
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:49,880
Speaker 1: It's basically people thrown around the teesler constantly.

896
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:51,840
Speaker 3: That's how we know they exist.

897
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:54,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, it'd be like if the only thing that people

898
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:57,840
Speaker 1: knew about modern trans culture was like Fox News.

899
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, or they go dig up years from now and

900
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:03,240
Speaker 2: all they find is JK Rowlings Twitter.

901
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:07,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly like I said, Fox News and uh oh,

902
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:09,359
Speaker 1: I wish you would live up to the JK and

903
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:10,239
Speaker 1: just be kidding.

904
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:13,360
Speaker 3: Or wish you would be rolling down a here.

905
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 1: And if y'all made it fifty six minutes into this podcast,

906
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 1: I hate listen. That's your bit for it and I

907
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 1: support it. So the first of her followers to get

908
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 1: accused of being gender deviance starting in the fourth century BCE,

909
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:33,800
Speaker 1: at least the shit talk started then are the metro gearts.

910
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:36,320
Speaker 1: And the metro gearts. I try to find the pronunciation

911
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:38,239
Speaker 1: like a lot of the shit and failed because this

912
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: is some like shit that people don't.

913
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:42,720
Speaker 3: It's lost to time.

914
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, anyone who studies ancient Greek would be

915
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:48,959
Speaker 1: able to put together the pronunciation of it, but there's

916
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 1: not Like I usually look up words and then find

917
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 1: the YouTube videos of how to pronounce it right. And

918
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 1: there's not enough people talking about the metro gearts these days.

919
00:47:58,120 --> 00:47:58,760
Speaker 3: I agree.

920
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 1: I know their name, those who collect for the mother,

921
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:04,960
Speaker 1: and they are basically like sketchy beggar priests who live

922
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 1: off of charity. One person referred to it as like

923
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:12,840
Speaker 1: parasitic charity. Ah, they're basically like the dang lazy hobo preachers.

924
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:13,799
Speaker 1: Why don't they get a job?

925
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:14,719
Speaker 3: Aka?

926
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:17,759
Speaker 1: Like also, what Jesus and his fucking followers? Did you know?

927
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:21,400
Speaker 2: I was about to say so Jesus. Yeah, it's like

928
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 2: the fine line between Jesus and Charles Manson.

929
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

930
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:30,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, all of Jesus' followers turned into Charles Manson, and

931
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:33,839
Speaker 1: so these itinerant preachers the metro gets might have been

932
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:36,880
Speaker 1: cross dressers, or they might have been like further trands,

933
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 1: like later the Galley where because they could pass as

934
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 1: what was called nurses and accounts use the usually feminine

935
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 1: word for nurses when they call them this in order

936
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:48,720
Speaker 1: to gain people's trust and swindle them into giving them alms.

937
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 3: Oh no, another thing that we keep doing.

938
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, last episode in this episode are just the nothing's

939
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 1: ever changed. Every time I read about the past, I'm

940
00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 1: just like, uh, oh we've done is add new bad stuff.

941
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 3: Yeah.

942
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 2: It's hard because then I start to think, especially now

943
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 2: with like fighting fascism, I start to be like, Okay,

944
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 2: well this thing that they did worked, so maybe we

945
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:14,879
Speaker 2: should just do that, And then it's like, no, there's

946
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:17,879
Speaker 2: a million factors that make it that you can't do that.

947
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:22,400
Speaker 2: But then I'm like, Okay, well, so something's gonna happen

948
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:25,080
Speaker 2: where we come out the other side of this in

949
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 2: some way that I'm not currently thinking of.

950
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, and because.

951
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 2: It happened in the past, so it's the hope of

952
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 2: that and also the absolute despair of that.

953
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, when we think about like what it took to

954
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:42,359
Speaker 1: stop European fascism in the nineteen forties, right, I.

955
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 3: Guess it has to happen again. I don't know what to.

956
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 1: Tell you unless we stop it before then you know.

957
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:50,000
Speaker 3: That happened.

958
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 1: Ever, Yeah, I actually do think time after time you

959
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:55,560
Speaker 1: get these like right wing movements that pop up and

960
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:58,359
Speaker 1: start getting power and do get squashed successfully. I don't

961
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:00,880
Speaker 1: know about ones that I've gotten this far. I have heard,

962
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 1: and I don't have the evidence for this because I

963
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 1: haven't heard the whole argument. I've heard some thinkers some

964
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:09,000
Speaker 1: writers talk about how in order to get fascism off

965
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 1: the ground, you need a certain amount of like you

966
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 1: need to hit escape velocity. You need a lot of momentum,

967
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 1: right otherwise you stall out. And these people are arguing,

968
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:19,840
Speaker 1: and if you're listening to the future, this is going

969
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:22,680
Speaker 1: to sound either hopelessly naive or like, yeah, nope, totally.

970
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:26,640
Speaker 1: These people are arguing that the Trump administration is stalling out,

971
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:28,440
Speaker 1: that the current fascist movement.

972
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 3: The instinction burst right.

973
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:31,360
Speaker 1: Oh, I don't know the phrase.

974
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:34,160
Speaker 2: It's like my friend was telling me she works with kids,

975
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:36,720
Speaker 2: and it's the thing where the kid throws a massive

976
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 2: tantrum right before they're tuckered out. It's like things get

977
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:44,760
Speaker 2: like really elevated and then it's a bubble.

978
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:48,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's like and if it reaches escape velocity,

979
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 1: ll do the next stage. You know. But they actually

980
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:53,839
Speaker 1: are getting a lot of pushback right now from like

981
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 1: most people in this country, including people that I like

982
00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 1: disagree with politically about most fine details, you know, are.

983
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 3: Just like what's going on?

984
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 2: Like when Tucker Carlson starts saying one or two sentences

985
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:07,560
Speaker 2: that make sense, I'm.

986
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:08,240
Speaker 3: Like, what's happening?

987
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:09,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, totally, it's we.

988
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 2: Don't gotta like everyone. No, And he's still gonna be

989
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:18,160
Speaker 2: guillotined later. He's not getting out of anything, Tucker Crosson,

990
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:18,880
Speaker 2: don't listen to this.

991
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:22,520
Speaker 3: Everything's gonna be fine, Everything's fine.

992
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:24,640
Speaker 1: I always liked the guillotine as a symbol because I

993
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:26,880
Speaker 1: thought we all knew that the guillotine report was a

994
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:30,160
Speaker 1: symbol that we used ironically only because yes, because there's

995
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:32,399
Speaker 1: a symbol that contains its own contradiction, because we all

996
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 1: look at history and are like, ah, that got out

997
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 1: of hand, and the people who used it died by it.

998
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:38,080
Speaker 1: And so I was like, yeah, the guillotine. It's like

999
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:39,880
Speaker 1: a way of saying we're so angry, we're willing to

1000
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:42,560
Speaker 1: do something dumb. And then I look around, I'm like, oh,

1001
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:47,160
Speaker 1: everyone just like earnestly wants to bring back the guillotine. Fuck,

1002
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:48,800
Speaker 1: we're so cooked.

1003
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, or the people that it's against think it's going

1004
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:56,279
Speaker 2: to be some literal guillotine that is brought out, and

1005
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 2: it's like, no, sorry to say.

1006
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 1: I do like the song Guillotine by the Coup. I

1007
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:04,600
Speaker 1: don't know it all listened to it. The chorus is

1008
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:07,839
Speaker 1: we got the guillotine, you better run, and it's people

1009
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:10,400
Speaker 1: dressed up like a Wizard of Oz pushing a guillotine

1010
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:14,440
Speaker 1: through Oakland. There is the video It's fucking sick.

1011
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:16,239
Speaker 3: I love it.

1012
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:20,360
Speaker 1: Boots Riley fucking knows what's up anyway, And so okay,

1013
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:22,719
Speaker 1: you have the metro Gearts. We don't know if their

1014
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:25,000
Speaker 1: trans are willing to just be kind of gender deviant.

1015
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:28,280
Speaker 1: We know way more about what they started getting called

1016
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:31,279
Speaker 1: and who they became later the galley, and we're going

1017
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:33,920
Speaker 1: to talk about the galley on Wednesday.

1018
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:37,120
Speaker 3: Oh my god, we didn't even get to the galley.

1019
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:40,719
Speaker 1: This is how the show works. One episode is context,

1020
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:42,760
Speaker 1: and then which is I don't do this on purpose.

1021
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:46,920
Speaker 1: I write everything I can about the thing, and then

1022
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 1: I go through and I find the halfway mark and

1023
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:51,719
Speaker 1: cut it and it always works out. We're half as context.

1024
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:52,840
Speaker 4: Wow.

1025
00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:56,839
Speaker 1: Anyway, that's what I got so far, And you got

1026
00:52:56,840 --> 00:52:58,320
Speaker 1: any thoughts or things you want to plug.

1027
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:01,960
Speaker 2: I love this of hearing about this. I love that

1028
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:05,200
Speaker 2: this is the topic. I love everything about the last hour.

1029
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 2: I'm delighted. And I have a substack called one thousand

1030
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:12,800
Speaker 2: Natural Shocks. It's also the name of the podcast, A

1031
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:16,520
Speaker 2: thousand Natural Shocks colon a Bad with Money podcast. Margaret

1032
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:20,440
Speaker 2: was a guest true and it's mostly about surviving a

1033
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 2: capitalist hellscape and being overwhelmed. And it used to be

1034
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 2: a financial education podcast. But what happened was we started

1035
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:30,719
Speaker 2: the first episode in twenty sixteen and I said, wow,

1036
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 2: I wonder what you know a bank actually does? And

1037
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:35,880
Speaker 2: then the years have gone by and now I'm like,

1038
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:38,160
Speaker 2: I think we have to burn everything down.

1039
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:39,480
Speaker 3: It truly went from.

1040
00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:42,719
Speaker 2: Capital l liberal to full anarchists over the course of

1041
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:44,080
Speaker 2: like nine years.

1042
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 3: So start at the beginning. I become trans in the

1043
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 3: middle of it.

1044
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:52,120
Speaker 1: It's really a lood journey. Fuck yeah, all right, Well

1045
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:56,720
Speaker 1: I have a substact too. It's Margaret Kilsoy do substec

1046
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:59,080
Speaker 1: dot com. I post about a lot of stuff. My

1047
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:01,720
Speaker 1: most recent post is right, this was called how Metal

1048
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:03,440
Speaker 1: is the Past, and it's me trying to figure out

1049
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:06,440
Speaker 1: exactly how true all of these things that people say about,

1050
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:10,600
Speaker 1: you know, human sacrifice and all of this wild stuff

1051
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:13,440
Speaker 1: about the past is. And yeah, I talked about a

1052
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:15,239
Speaker 1: lot of stuff over there, and you can find it,

1053
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:17,680
Speaker 1: and most of it's free, and if it's not, it's

1054
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 1: because it's personal. And if you want to read my

1055
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:21,840
Speaker 1: personal stuff, you have to pay me, and that seems

1056
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:23,880
Speaker 1: like a fair deal. But the podcast is free. But

1057
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:25,800
Speaker 1: if you want the podcast and you're like, oh, I

1058
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:27,560
Speaker 1: wish the podcast wasn't free and I wish it had

1059
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:30,279
Speaker 1: no ads, you can subscribe to Cooler Zone Media And

1060
00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:33,279
Speaker 1: that's like what I just said, but I had too

1061
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 1: much sugar today, So I'm gonna hang up. It's not

1062
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:37,080
Speaker 1: hanging up.

1063
00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:40,880
Speaker 2: I'm a subscriber. Fuck yeah, I recommend fuck yeah.

1064
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:43,800
Speaker 1: All right, see you all on Wednesday.

1065
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:47,440
Speaker 4: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

1066
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:51,000
Speaker 4: cool Zone Media. More podcasts and cool Zone Media, visit

1067
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 4: our website goal Zonemedia dot com, or check us out

1068
00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:58,640
Speaker 4: on radio, app, a podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1069
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:00,759
Speaker 1: Being your have been