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Speaker 1: Hello the Internet, and welcome to season two ninety two,

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Speaker 1: episode one.

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Speaker 2: Of Daily's I Guys Say.

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Speaker 3: Production of iHeartRadio. This is a podcast where we take

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Speaker 3: a deep dive into America's shared consciousness. And it's Wednesday,

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Speaker 3: June twenty first, twenty twenty three, which of course means.

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Speaker 2: It's the longest day is. Summer begins today us get ready,

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Speaker 2: put on your your big sun hats like I did

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Speaker 2: that I got for Father's Day. I will be wearing

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Speaker 2: this woven hat for the rest of the summer that

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Speaker 2: has UCLA branding all over it. Very cool. Also, National

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Speaker 2: Pieces and Cream Day, Yeah, exactly, National Selfie Day, National

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Speaker 2: Daylight Appreciation Day, makes sense, World Giraffe Day, shout out

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Speaker 2: to those long decks, National Smoothie Day, World Human This Day,

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Speaker 2: World Hydrography Hydrography Day.

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Speaker 1: We'll ask our expert guess what that means.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, let's go skateboarding day two. I'm also, if you're

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Speaker 2: in Arizona, National Arizona Day, So how about that. There's

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Speaker 2: a lot.

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Speaker 1: Actually, it's also birthday time, the time of the year

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Speaker 1: that all my I always talk about how I don't

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Speaker 1: believe in astrology, and yet all my favorite people in

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Speaker 1: the world have birthdays around this time.

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Speaker 2: Over, So who's up today? You got someone today today?

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Speaker 1: It is especially my best friend since I was twelve

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Speaker 1: years old, Chris who you risk and Jose who you

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Speaker 1: also met at the Brooklyn Show. And then a couple

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Speaker 1: of days ago my wife and the day before that

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Speaker 1: one of my best friends, John. So shout out to

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Speaker 1: all the Gemini and your day, Gemini energy.

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Speaker 2: Her majesty, her mad days. You know what I mean?

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Speaker 2: It all Look, it's all happening. It's all happening. Well,

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Speaker 2: my name is Jack O'Brien aka.

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Speaker 1: I saw your thighs and it opened up my eyes.

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Speaker 2: I saw your thighs.

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Speaker 1: Is demanding all the plump first stand and I saw

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Speaker 1: your thighs and it opened up my eyes. I saw

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Speaker 1: your thighs. No one's gonna plump you up. To pull

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Speaker 1: up the shorts where they where, the where they belong.

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Speaker 2: That isy of a lease with the hot takes.

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Speaker 1: Our expert guest is wondering what she got herself into.

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Speaker 2: What manner of show? What manner of show is this?

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Speaker 1: Uh? I'm thrilled to be joined as always by my

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Speaker 1: co host.

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Speaker 4: Mister Miles Grant Miles Gray the first time Father's Day

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Speaker 4: celebrator and Blasian experimental visual artist Yo Boy Kusama.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, shout out to a few people who sent

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Speaker 2: me a Father's Day well wishes. I don't even know y'all,

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Speaker 2: but thank you.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate that first Father's Day. I don't remember mine,

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Speaker 1: but I'm sure it was a trip.

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Speaker 2: It's all I do is think about it's so weird.

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Speaker 2: All I do is like run back stuff my dad did,

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Speaker 2: and I'm like, did I would I do that?

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Speaker 1: Is that good?

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Speaker 2: Was that bad? And half the time I'm like, wait,

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Speaker 2: is that trauma? Trying to like parts through And You're like,

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Speaker 2: but it was normal, man, huh. But overall, fantastic time,

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Speaker 2: fantastic time.

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Speaker 1: Well, Miles, we are thrilled to be joined in our

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Speaker 1: third seat by an award winning journalist, Auf their public speaker,

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Speaker 1: the host of the new show Big Sugar. Please welcome

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Speaker 1: Celeste Headlands.

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Speaker 2: Nice welcome.

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Speaker 5: You guys do that intro all the time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, anytime you enter a room, we are available for

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Speaker 1: you know, a small fee.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we moonlight as town criers for any kind of

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Speaker 2: dynamic intro. Yeah. Well we can read from a scroll

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Speaker 2: and everything.

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Speaker 5: Wow, that's I don't know how much work there is

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Speaker 5: for that, but you.

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Speaker 2: Know, I'm not gonna lie. It's it's feast famine there.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure we don't have to ask you this, but

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Speaker 2: this is that is the dumbest opening to a show

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Speaker 2: that you've ever been on. I have to imagine I

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Speaker 2: probably don't even need to confirm that.

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Speaker 5: But that's correct.

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Speaker 2: Oat the crown on. Thank you, Yes, here's your crown King. Well,

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Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining us.

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Speaker 1: Your new show, Big Sugar is fascinating, kind of mind expanding.

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Speaker 1: Also just kind of crystallizes, to use a sugar industry

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Speaker 1: crystallizes a lot of the things that we aready suspect

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Speaker 1: about the world of capitalism and industry in these United States.

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Speaker 1: So thank you first of all for your work on

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Speaker 1: that show.

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Speaker 2: It's really cool.

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Speaker 5: Thanks thanks so much. I mean I learned a lot

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Speaker 5: doing it. Also. It's one of those things where you

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Speaker 5: kind of pull the thread and it just came.

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Speaker 2: It's still going.

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Speaker 5: Everything, Yeah exactly, Yeah, but you know it's important. This

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Speaker 5: is stuff you know, I know. Okay, so this is

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Speaker 5: all stuff that we should know. But without diving completely

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Speaker 5: feet first into it, I should say that one of

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Speaker 5: my big takeaways after doing two years of work on

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Speaker 5: this is that I don't think we should have to

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Speaker 5: know this. I think that with all the other stuff

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Speaker 5: we have going on as citizens, as consumers, I don't

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Speaker 5: think we should be responsible for also policing our industries.

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Speaker 5: I think that we shouldn't have to be the ones

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Speaker 5: constantly having to keep watch over whether industries and employers

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Speaker 5: are following basic ethical rules and regulations, both environmental and human.

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Speaker 2: Yeah so, yeah, but I got good news, Celesti. We

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Speaker 2: don't have to because that's what the regulators and the government, right.

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Speaker 1: And they're super well funded and always up to the task.

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Speaker 1: As we'll get into yeah right, all right, Well, we

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Speaker 1: are going to get to know you a little bit better.

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Speaker 1: We are going to hop into all of that feet first.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk about you know, there's this is

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Speaker 1: just right chuck full of conspiracies. There's a conspiracy to

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Speaker 1: you know, under real real conspiracy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I guess people now think just conspiracy means conspiracy theory.

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Speaker 2: It's like something else.

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Speaker 1: These are real, vast conspiracies to keep the truth about

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Speaker 1: the health consequences of sugar quiet and from affecting how

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Speaker 1: much sugar can be put into things. We'll talk about

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Speaker 1: just this powerful oligarchical family that is kind of at

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Speaker 1: the center of the story and basically like slavery that

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Speaker 1: exists in the United States, you know, basically to this day. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: some of the worst working conditions. So we'll talk about

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Speaker 1: all of that. But before we get into the new show,

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Speaker 1: we do like to ask our guests a little bit

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Speaker 1: about themselves, such as, what is something from your search history?

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Speaker 1: It's revealing about who you are.

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Speaker 5: So I just went through my search history and what

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Speaker 5: I found was me looking up specific answers to the

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Speaker 5: crossbord question for today. Okay, so I looked up a

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Speaker 5: very specific Irish word, for example, which was the name

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Speaker 5: of an Irish god, in order to answer a crossword.

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Speaker 5: And that's personal because I do the crossword every single day,

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Speaker 5: getting very very long strings the crossword and wordle every day.

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Speaker 5: So there you go.

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Speaker 1: Oh you doing a word wordles about where I'm max out.

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Speaker 5: I'm excellent. I'm pretty good at word. I mean, I

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Speaker 5: guess I'm pretty good at my average. I get by

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Speaker 5: the third line.

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Speaker 2: Okay, isn't that that's par right? What is that? No,

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Speaker 2: that's a birdie that's a birdie. Oh is averaging a

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Speaker 2: birdie over here? Okay, that's pretty good. Rights So yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's pretty impressive. And then on the on the crosswords,

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Speaker 2: I do that too. I google for help on specific answers.

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Speaker 5: Some of them are like names and like specific yeah

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Speaker 5: I don't know stuff.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that actually makes me feel better about myself. I

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Speaker 1: was like, wait, you know about like Celtic God?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Wow yeah. What is something that you think is overrated?

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Speaker 5: Avocados?

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Speaker 2: Okay, what do you mean? Okay, well, come on expand

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Speaker 2: on that just I mean, I.

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Speaker 5: Say this, I'm gonna get I'm gonna get email. I'm

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Speaker 5: not because I'm from California. I just think they're overrated.

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Speaker 5: They put avocados on everything, thinking and avocado is improve

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Speaker 5: gonna improve everything, and avocados do not improve everything.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So example, Okay, what's something that you're like, you

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Speaker 2: can't that's it's this, isn't this isn't that different? You

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Speaker 2: just put avocado on it? Is there something specifically like

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Speaker 2: knock it off with the avocado on that?

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Speaker 5: I'm just gonna say in general, like there's there's things

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Speaker 5: like there's sandwiches that shouldn't have avocado on them. Like

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Speaker 5: there's hamburgers that shouldn't have avocado means sometimes maybe, but

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Speaker 5: you bite into a hamburger and avocado is this is

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Speaker 5: a squishy piece of food, right, Like that's gonna be

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Speaker 5: a mess, you know, so maybe cool it with the avocados.

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Speaker 2: Yeah are you? How are you on avocado host that's.

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Speaker 5: Just on the avocado's hoast, right, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, favorite avocado dish if you got to give it

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Speaker 2: up to avocados in one form or the other, where

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Speaker 2: is it perfect?

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Speaker 5: I'm from I'm from California. I mean it has to

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Speaker 5: be guacamole.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, yeah, I'm just bad at picking. I'm bad

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Speaker 2: at timing the ripening of them. Like unless they're right

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Speaker 2: at the store, I fuck up. And like they're like,

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Speaker 2: oh yeah, three days and then I wait, like the

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Speaker 2: fourth day it's I got worms having a party on

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Speaker 2: the inside. And I'm like, I get.

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Speaker 5: You can't go by really by color. You have to

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Speaker 5: go by.

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Speaker 2: Yeah squishy, yeah yeah yeah.

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Speaker 1: I like it firm like an apple, like I just

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Speaker 1: have it. Crisp should have crush in my book. Interesting

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Speaker 1: and gen Z, I love all of your avocado creations

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Speaker 1: and you know, save yours, save your mail for Celeste,

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Speaker 1: because I'm team Avocado. Okay, team Avo over here, I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 1: by the way, so least i'm a coward just in case. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that'll become clear, but there will be a lot of

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Speaker 1: disclaimers where I'm like, big sugar, we actually are big

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Speaker 1: fans on this podcast.

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Speaker 2: You love the Domino Company obviously for everything they've done

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Speaker 2: for us in our Texas, but yeah, I feel like

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Speaker 2: I see now it's funny how like the avocado wave,

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Speaker 2: like it became a thing. I feel like in california're

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Speaker 2: like fifteen years ago where it was just like you

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Speaker 2: will not avoid it, and we're like okay, fine, and

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Speaker 2: people are like, okay, this is cool, and now it

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Speaker 2: is to a part like for me, avocado tuna sands.

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Speaker 2: I like a tuna sandwich, but I see a lot

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Speaker 2: of avocado on tuna sandwiches now, and I'm like that's

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Speaker 2: a little too much for me, for me personally, not

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Speaker 2: a big fan. But then I see how now like

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Speaker 2: it infects the rest of the world because when I

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Speaker 2: travel like abroad, you'll see them like at an avocado

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Speaker 2: for five euros and you're like, damn.

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Speaker 5: That's fucking expensive, but like, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: I think this pasta dish is fine without the avocado.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, spaghetti bowling ace with avocado with avocado, you gotta

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Speaker 1: have some avocado slices thrown in there. I would say,

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Speaker 1: just generally, like sliced avocado on a sandwich, Like I

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Speaker 1: actually really love avocado toast, but like that's a great

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Speaker 1: like to to guacamulli that avocado up so that it's

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Speaker 1: almost like a spread that just like, oh she stays

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Speaker 1: on there, real nice?

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Speaker 2: Is well?

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Speaker 1: I feel like we should see more burgers that have

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Speaker 1: like avocado spread. I think that probably the issue there

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Speaker 1: is that so many avocado spreads are just like green,

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Speaker 1: like mayonnaise that's been dyed green, and so people are

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Speaker 1: distrustful of it. But I don't know, Yeah, when when

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Speaker 1: the when the little chunk of avocados like squeezing out

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Speaker 1: every which way?

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Speaker 2: That's hard, yeah, because it's already like a It's like

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Speaker 2: it's just like the slip reest food anyway it is.

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Speaker 2: And sandwiches are known if when they're made incorrectly, you

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Speaker 2: are like ejecting elements of a sandwich out the size

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Speaker 2: if you bite too hard, it's.

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Speaker 5: Like avocado and cooked mushrooms, like those two slippery.

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Speaker 2: Things you have, Yeah, like banana.

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Speaker 1: If a banana wouldn't like work on the thing, it's

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Speaker 1: avocado probably isn't.

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Speaker 2: Gonna work either.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, But we didn't have generations of you know, avocados

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Speaker 1: being slippery the way we did with bananas and cartoons.

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Speaker 1: So right, yeah, all right, what is something that you

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Speaker 1: think is underrated?

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Speaker 5: So I'm gonna stay with food and say Iceberg lettuce,

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Speaker 5: so I X you know, I'm a child of the eighties,

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Speaker 5: and Iceberg lettuce got such a bad name, right, Like

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Speaker 5: everybody was all about the romaine and the kale and

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Speaker 5: like it had color. But I gotta say, I'm coming

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Speaker 5: back around to Iceberg, like I think it's gotten a

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Speaker 5: bad wrap. So I'm all about the wedge salad lately.

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Speaker 2: I love edge, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I think it's pretty underrated.

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Speaker 2: Quick question we like to ask if you're a big

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Speaker 2: wedgehead you forking knife in it? Are you just taking

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Speaker 2: like a big melon slice?

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Speaker 5: I definitely not melon slicing.

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Speaker 2: That is a question we asked all our guests. So

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Speaker 2: I feel like the last time the wedge came up,

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Speaker 2: I was like, you ever eat it just like a

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Speaker 2: big wedge of melon literally already made.

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Speaker 5: My opinion clear on messy eating knife.

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Speaker 1: And how are you on blue cheese on your melon slices?

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Speaker 2: Though? Are you? Are you?

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Speaker 5: I have recently devised a blue cheese vin a grete dressing,

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Speaker 5: so I don't like creamy dressings very much, but the

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Speaker 5: blue cheese vinagrette I'm all about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, playing god with the blue cheese.

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Speaker 2: Vite Yeah right?

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: What was the thing though, Like people were just off

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Speaker 2: iceberg because they're like it has no flavor and it's

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Speaker 2: like devoided.

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Speaker 5: They're zero nutritional value to it, which turns out to

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Speaker 5: be not true.

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Speaker 2: Ah, there's a little bit stuff like what does that mean?

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Speaker 2: Like what do we get from?

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Speaker 5: But there is this like ridiculous idea that Romayne lettuce

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Speaker 5: had way more nutritional value than Iceberg. No. I mean,

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Speaker 5: if you're gonna say iceberg has no nutritional value, it's

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Speaker 5: not like romain has.

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Speaker 2: Way more, right that it's like a super food or something.

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Speaker 5: It's yeah, it's just a leafy right exactly. So yeah,

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Speaker 5: it's you're just choosing one leafy green over another.

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Speaker 2: I mean, as a child of the eighties, I mean

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Speaker 2: the I remember the first time someone put like a

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Speaker 2: mixed green salad in front of me, and I almost

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Speaker 2: had a panic attack because like, what is the was

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Speaker 2: yard trimmings? Like where's my crunchy ice.

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Speaker 5: Also a child of the eighties, you know, and and

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Speaker 5: and my you know, my cafeteria lunches. It was all light,

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Speaker 5: pale green, you know. But there that was all limp

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Speaker 5: and watery, and itd been sitting in there walk in

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Speaker 5: cooler for yeah, I don't know, seven eight weeks, I

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Speaker 5: don't know how long it's sat there becoming goop. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: and that's kind of how it got a bad rep.

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Speaker 5: But iceberg needs to be fresh because it's got all

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Speaker 5: that crisp water in there.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it is the crispy. It's water in crisp form.

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Speaker 2: And refreshing, Yes, very refreshing.

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Speaker 1: I just like to after a jog on a hot day,

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Speaker 1: just bite into a big handful of just a big

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Speaker 1: head of iceberg lettuce.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you love it. I mean that's why you're

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Speaker 2: I think you still can't go to the Whole Foods

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Speaker 2: by your house, right, Yeah? They get mad by that. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: well look they don't understand.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they shouldn't have that myster there being so enticing,

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Speaker 1: you know, but you know it's wild though, too, like

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Speaker 1: because of factory farming and stuff. Like I remember just

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Speaker 1: how romaine let us used to have a flavor, and

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Speaker 1: now it doesn't like when you buy it at the

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Speaker 1: store or like a arugula too, Like I know when

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Speaker 1: I've had like you're like, whoa shit, like some peppery ruge.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but now I feel like the rocket, you know,

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Speaker 2: as it's described in other places, it's not coming the

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Speaker 2: same way as it used to. Yeah, so you know,

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Speaker 2: I'll go back to Iceberg.

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Speaker 5: I mean, I will just say, just in defense of Iceberg,

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Speaker 5: it does have tassium in vitamin A and vitamin K

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Speaker 5: and calcium and vitamin C. I mean, it is not

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Speaker 5: devoid of nutritional con right.

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Speaker 2: So I wonder who started saying that. That feels like

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Speaker 2: such a weird take because it's like it's still lettuce y'all,

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Speaker 2: Like it's probably big sugar big.

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Speaker 1: It's probably like you guys should have jello instead, Like

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Speaker 1: wasn't that a big movement in the fifties everything who

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Speaker 1: was green jello replace all salads? Yeah, you have your

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Speaker 1: vegetables and fruits in jello form.

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Speaker 2: You don't need these. Uh, let us.

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Speaker 5: Forget about the cuisine in the seventies.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, man, what a time to be alive. I've

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Speaker 1: heard and the fashion.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, i'd always heard.

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Speaker 1: The other food that I feel like I'm slowly waking

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Speaker 1: up to the fact that it has a nutritional value

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Speaker 1: is potatoes. Like I had always heard, potatoes were just

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Speaker 1: like wonderbread, essentially like the wonderbread.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they have like.

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Speaker 1: A ton of different nutritional value.

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Speaker 2: Am I the only one?

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Speaker 1: Did I just maybe like associate too hard between potatoes

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Speaker 1: and French fries.

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Speaker 2: Potentially, Yeah, maybe I think. But then I'm like, you know,

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Speaker 2: like the Inkings gave us potatoes, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: So like I'm like, here, I'll fuck with them. So

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Speaker 2: there's got to be value there.

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Speaker 5: Potatoes have a lot of nutrients in them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like I said, and I always knew that, adjusting

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Speaker 1: you cut out that part where I said I didn't

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Speaker 1: know that. Okay, all right, So last let's take a

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Speaker 1: quick break, and when we come back, we are going

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Speaker 1: to talk about your new show, Big Sugar.

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Speaker 2: We'll be right back.

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Speaker 1: And we're back, and all right, celest there's so much

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Speaker 1: good information in the in your new show Big Sugar.

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Speaker 1: I do want to I want to start with the

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Speaker 1: health conference that I think it's an episode seven. It's

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Speaker 1: a conference about the connection between gum disease and diabetes.

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Speaker 1: Miles what what is that diagram?

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Speaker 2: Thank you?

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Speaker 1: Like those two things, like sugar is the thing? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the gum pops into my mind immediately. Oh yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 2: I even with my very cursory knowledge of anything healthy,

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Speaker 2: I'm like sugar.

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Speaker 1: Sure, right, And so you know, as you tell it,

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Speaker 1: there's this dentist, Kristen Kerns who's watching these keynote speakers

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Speaker 1: and they're like handing out brochures and like the brochures

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Speaker 1: don't mention sugar, and like they even mentioned like trying

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Speaker 1: to avoid too much soult and which you know.

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Speaker 2: Always a good idea.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but like it's just wild and she kind of

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Speaker 1: has this experience where she finally like after somebody from

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Speaker 1: I think first keynote speaker CDC, the second one is

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Speaker 1: from like the Diabetes Diabetes Education Foundation and hands out

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Speaker 1: a form that is like how to eat fast food healthfully?

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Speaker 5: And yeah, I mean the crazy thing is I mean

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Speaker 5: think now about you know all the bad dad jokes

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Speaker 5: about dentists and halloween candy, right, like, right, so many.

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Speaker 5: But we're talking about a time when she's at a

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Speaker 5: conference about dental health and they they're not even mentioning sugar.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 5: The crazy thing here is her describing going to these

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Speaker 5: archives of the and finds that archives the Great Western

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Speaker 5: Sugar Company, right yeah, and just sitting in these boxes

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Speaker 5: that I guess nobody had ever looked in were all

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Speaker 5: these confidential files, right, And I guess they never realized

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Speaker 5: anybody was ever going to look in there because there

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Speaker 5: was all this information in there, the backstory of what

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Speaker 5: the sugar industry had kept hidden from the public for

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Speaker 5: so long. And it was I mean, it was shocking,

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Speaker 5: you know, the fact that that all the fact the

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Speaker 5: reason why sugar wasn't mentioned at this dental conference was

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Speaker 5: intentional all along and had represented a decades long campaign,

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Speaker 5: you know, a ton of money, a lot of influence,

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Speaker 5: a lot of effort, not only speaking to politicians but

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Speaker 5: influencing scientists on the part of the sugar industry to

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Speaker 5: blame it on everything else, as you say, salt, but

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Speaker 5: also to make fat the bad guy when it came

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Speaker 5: to obesity for example.

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Speaker 1: Right, yeah, I remember growing up in a world where

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Speaker 1: like the products were fat free, like like you always

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Speaker 1: had a fat free option for your cookies that like

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Speaker 1: I remember the Snackwell cookies, the snack Well sandwich cookies

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Speaker 1: that were like on the verge of just bursting into

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Speaker 1: being crystallized sugar.

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Speaker 5: Like, so they would put they would put a box

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Speaker 5: of liquoration. It would say fat.

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Speaker 2: Free, yeah, right right, right, like oh.

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Speaker 5: Good, great, well this is healthy then right sugar?

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Speaker 2: Oh, filled up to the gills with it.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely, It's okay, it's just healthy sugar. And you know,

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Speaker 5: we found these ads dating from you know, in the

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Speaker 5: nineteen fifties, sixties and seventies where they literally said some

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Speaker 5: good natural sugars, you know, and you're like, what are

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Speaker 5: you talking about it? It's it's refined sugar. I mean

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Speaker 5: that's literally yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: We did it for a while with corn syrup, right

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Speaker 1: where we were like, well, as long as it doesn't

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Speaker 1: have corn syrup, then it's okay.

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Speaker 2: And you know, sugar.

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Speaker 5: Corn syrup was originally seen as a health food product, right, it.

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Speaker 2: Was an enriching Yeah, it's three game three Carmonte. Right.

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Speaker 1: They're just like moving things around and you know, trying

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Speaker 1: to make it as confusing as possible, to the point

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Speaker 1: that there's a conference about the connection between gum disease

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Speaker 1: and diabetes and nobody is mentioning sugar, and like that's

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Speaker 1: how recently was that conference that she was at.

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Speaker 5: I can't remember. I hate to say it, but it

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Speaker 5: would have I mean, I'm going to completely guess and

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Speaker 5: say it was the eighties, Okay, but you know, then

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Speaker 5: we head back and sort of try to trace some

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Speaker 5: of this and talk about sort of the the rivalry

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Speaker 5: between two scientists, John Yudkin, who'd grown up in this

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Speaker 5: very poor Orthodox Jewish family in London, who very early

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Speaker 5: on spotted the dangers of sugar and began to connect

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Speaker 5: it to obesity, like really early on. Yeah, and then

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Speaker 5: he and Ansel Keys, and Ansel Keys took a huge

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Speaker 5: amount of money from the sugar industry and he said

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Speaker 5: it was fat right, And John Yudkin published this book

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Speaker 5: called Pure White and Deadly, and that was in the

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Speaker 5: nineteen seventies, and Ansel Keys made it his mission to

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Speaker 5: just ruin Judkins. Judkins Life's reputation. He just it completely

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Speaker 5: completely derailed his career. So we would have been I

438
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,920
Speaker 5: think Kristin Kurns was working in the early two thousands

439
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:29,800
Speaker 5: now that I think of it.

440
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:34,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was early, very recent that I.

441
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,560
Speaker 5: Think of it, because yeah, his book was published in

442
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,040
Speaker 5: the seventies, which is what I was thinking of, and

443
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,199
Speaker 5: she was working in the early two thousands.

444
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I mean it really seems to come

445
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 1: down to there's no individual consolidated like powerful lobby for fat, right,

446
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,720
Speaker 1: but there is one for sugar. And so the guy

447
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:59,880
Speaker 1: who tells the truth that like sugar is really bad

448
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,239
Speaker 1: for you in the amounts that people are consuming it

449
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:06,000
Speaker 1: and could drive an obesity epidemic if it's not controlled,

450
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:10,440
Speaker 1: he just really like has his career dismantled in a

451
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:15,119
Speaker 1: way that is pretty startling. Like he is a star

452
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 1: heading into the publication of this book. And the book,

453
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 1: by the way, is like currently very popular fifty years

454
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:28,159
Speaker 1: after its publication. And right, but this other guy, ansel Keys,

455
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,479
Speaker 1: you know, like on the one of the very first

456
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 1: health studies or like collaborations between a major sugar industry

457
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 1: lobbying group and like the medical establishment, Like he is

458
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 1: one of the first people who does that, and this

459
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 1: is he becomes a superstar. Like it's like I don't know,

460
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 1: it's just I think a thing that Hollywood movies have

461
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 1: treated us to this or have implanted this idea in

462
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 1: our head that like the person who does the bad

463
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,639
Speaker 1: thing might win in the short run, but in the

464
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,880
Speaker 1: long run they it all comes out or something, Yeah,

465
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 1: the truth comes out, and like, I guess that's true

466
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:12,120
Speaker 1: in this case.

467
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 2: But it's like the very long run.

468
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 1: Like this person was a massive celebrity for all his

469
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 1: like fat free diet advice. He was like the number

470
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 1: one most covered and like media saturated dietitian in for

471
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:29,640
Speaker 1: like decades and wealthy, and.

472
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:31,920
Speaker 5: Think of all the lives that were ruined, they weren't

473
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 5: marketing sugar as a way to lose weight. And that

474
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,920
Speaker 5: entire time the documents that Kristin discovered, they were basically

475
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 5: running the same kind of campaign that Tobacco ran to

476
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 5: try to disguise the damage that is smoking dusty your health.

477
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,120
Speaker 5: And so what she found out was that the sugar

478
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 5: industry basically spent what would be the equivalent of millions

479
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 5: of dollars today on somewhere between fifteen and twenty studies

480
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 5: that were designed to show that sugar is good is

481
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 5: not bad for you, to exonerate sugar as the bad guy.

482
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 5: In fact, they even had one study that was supposed

483
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 5: to link sugar to to say that sugar was it

484
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 5: could be a treatment for depression, right and and and

485
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,919
Speaker 5: so Keys at the meantime was receiving financial support from

486
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 5: the sugar industry.

487
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 2: Right right. So when you because like we talk, I

488
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,120
Speaker 2: mean like any industry that has like a tangible product

489
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,400
Speaker 2: has like a you know, substantial lobbying arm because they

490
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:36,399
Speaker 2: need to kind of get ahead of any kind of

491
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 2: messaging about their products, whether it's tobacco or falsel, fossil

492
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 2: fuels or sugar. What Like what is how do the

493
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,199
Speaker 2: formation of the sugar lobby even come about? Like what

494
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:47,680
Speaker 2: was there like an impetus for them to be like

495
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 2: holy shit, all right, we got to get ahead of it,

496
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 2: like we need to start obscuring the facts like immediately

497
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:54,679
Speaker 2: or was this just kind of a natural thing because

498
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,199
Speaker 2: like any industry, they have to throw their influence around

499
00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 2: like and to get political.

500
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 5: It started because you know, in Europe there was a

501
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:08,720
Speaker 5: leader there who very early on started an investigation into

502
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,880
Speaker 5: sugar and wanted to put some limits on sugar consumption.

503
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 5: Basically at the same time that sugar started to become

504
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 5: really affordable. They started to see some of these real

505
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 5: health problems emerging. And so as soon as sugar producers

506
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:24,679
Speaker 5: start at the same time that they were seeing their

507
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 5: profits really going up, right because it was going to

508
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 5: be afford it was spreading all over the world. Here's

509
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 5: this guy in Europe who's like, uh, let's start regulating this.

510
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 5: And that's when they started kind of came together and said,

511
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 5: we need to do something about this. And by the way,

512
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 5: we should mention that Kristin Kerns herself was labeled as

513
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:48,120
Speaker 5: a conspiracy theorist. She was herself, you know, smeared by

514
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,199
Speaker 5: a lot of people, even though she has been she

515
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 5: has been you know, all those people. She has been

516
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 5: held up since then as being correct. And his book

517
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,679
Speaker 5: has been reissued. John Yudkins book has been issued, has

518
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 5: been doing really well. And you know, his son talks

519
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 5: about you know, it's a it's a victory for him

520
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:11,439
Speaker 5: since his death, right, but yeah, posthumously. But yeah, this

521
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 5: all started because there was a danger to their profits

522
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 5: from the beginning, yes, yeah, and so they fought back.

523
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 2: Yeah.

524
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,639
Speaker 1: We talk about like how you know, people when they

525
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 1: talk about AI worry about the singularity and like this

526
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 1: idea that someone's going to create a computer program that's

527
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 1: going to like start, you know, become smarter and more

528
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 1: advanced than humans, and then like after that it'll just

529
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 1: like run away from us and like start doing things

530
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: that aren't in humanity's interest. And it feels like we're

531
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 1: there with capitalism just like unrestrained hyper capitalism, like that

532
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 1: is basically how it operates. And there's this quote from

533
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 1: Kristen Kerns at the end of I Think Episode seven

534
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 1: where she talks about the sugar industry just like constantly

535
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 1: be on guard, always scanning for threats, always ready to

536
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: take on the next challenge. And it truly sounds like

537
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 1: you're listening to John Connor like talk about talk about

538
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 1: a terminator, Like it's just just always seeing, never stopping,

539
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 1: always aware, and like, you know, it just basically in

540
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 1: the form of capitalism that we have in this country,

541
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 1: it's the thing that is more well funded, the thing

542
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 1: like they can hire the smartest people out of the

543
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 1: best law schools to work around the clock to keep

544
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 1: everyone quiet and or you know, pay for studies on

545
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 1: how sugar is good for you, and then you know

546
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 1: the outcome is not that like they have a couple

547
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 1: good paychecks, Like the outcome is like generational wealth. Like

548
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 1: Brett Kavanaugh's dad was like a lobbyist for Jay and

549
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 1: Jay and helped them get around regulation to sell a

550
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 1: carcinogenic product, and like his legacy is like his fucking

551
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 1: son is on the spring court. It's just it's like

552
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 1: a really hard system to shake. But I your show,

553
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 1: in particular, like makes makes a good case for like

554
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 1: we at least need to be able to see it

555
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 1: for what it is, and I don't think we even

556
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 1: get that usually. And I think your show does a

557
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 1: good job of actually showing us like how this thing

558
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 1: actually operates. And part of the time it's how we suspect,

559
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 1: but it's even more flagrant than we might sup.

560
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, and that's one of the reasons we wanted to

561
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 5: keep pulling at this thread, you know, because at one

562
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 5: point I tried to eliminate sugar from my diet. Yeah,

563
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 5: and I got to tell you it took the vast

564
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 5: majority of my time, Like it was so hard. Yeah,

565
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 5: it's in everything. I had to bake my own bread.

566
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 5: Number one, it was expensive, and number two, it was

567
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 5: really time consuming. Yeah, because it's in everything and they

568
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,479
Speaker 5: call it by different names, so you don't even recognize it.

569
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 5: So there's a huge amount of research where I had

570
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 5: to start making lists of all the different names they

571
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 5: give to sugar so that you can recognize it when

572
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,959
Speaker 5: you're looking at the nutritional labels. Sometimes they have proprietory

573
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 5: recipes that you're not allowed to know, so you can't

574
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 5: even be sure which things have sugar in which don't.

575
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 5: I mean, that's how successful they've been.

576
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 2: I mean, what are some of the alternate names of

577
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 2: sugar that you'd look for?

578
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 5: So I'd have to go back to my sneaky I

579
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 5: call it like sneaky names for sugar.

580
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 1: It's like a lot of things with like sucrose or

581
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 1: any something open.

582
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 5: Well, there's ones that you expect, but there's things like gallictose.

583
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 5: I mean, there's ones you expect, like maltose, glucose, dextros.

584
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 5: Those are the ones you know, but then there's like

585
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 5: there's and then there's things like dextrin. There's diastatic malt.

586
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 5: There's ethyl maltol. There's malted dextrin, which I kind of

587
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 5: you know, there's suconot, there's barley malt, there's.

588
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: So malt is a any malt.

589
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 5: There's treacle, which people in the UK.

590
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: Would I thought that was a word for poop on

591
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 1: last week's episode that we did. Yeah, it sounds.

592
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 5: Like it possibly, you know, there's a lot of different

593
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 5: words for it, yes, you know, and you have to

594
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 5: start learning how to spot it.

595
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean that is the result of, you know,

596
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 2: just hundreds and hundreds of people who are working for

597
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 2: the sugar industry and paid really well to come up

598
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 2: with different ways that they can get their product in

599
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 2: all the food Like it's just it's so massive. Yeah,

600
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 2: the average Yeah.

601
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 5: The average American eats almost sixty pounds of sugar a year.

602
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, sixty.

603
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 1: Oh, it seems like too much sugar, but it is

604
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 1: too much sugar.

605
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 5: Okay, it's way too much sugar.

606
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 2: I think of like like sugar just as like a

607
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 2: lover of history has kind of been like the magnetic

608
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 2: force of a lot of bad things, whether that's like

609
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 2: the original crop that helped explode slavery in the United States,

610
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 2: or like why we annexed places like Hawaii or Puerto Rico.

611
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 5: In the environmental disasters.

612
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's does it like is there? I get

613
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 2: that there's the big sugar lobby, But is there like

614
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 2: a is there like a darker like is there a

615
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 2: figurehead or is there like a group of companies or

616
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 2: families or something that kind of are sort of have

617
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 2: an outsized influence within the sugar industry because I feel

618
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 2: like anything there's probably like everybody participating, and then you

619
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 2: have like the real movers and shakers of sugar.

620
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 1: So can I talk about just one scene that blew

621
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 1: me away? Because then it kind of goes into this question.

622
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 1: So Bill Clinton, remember him, Miles, he was the President

623
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 1: of the United States when we're hi, President, Yes, is

624
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 1: in the Oval office breaking up with Monica Lewinsky, like

625
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 1: because he's like, look this, I've made a mistake.

626
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 2: This is like not all bad. Yeah so bad. Oh No,

627
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:08,319
Speaker 2: I messed up big time.

628
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 1: And as he's doing that, he's pulled away to a

629
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 1: phone call with one of the sugar magnates at the

630
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 1: center of this story that Big Sugar is about. Like

631
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 1: that is how powerful. He's pulled away by this person

632
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:28,800
Speaker 1: who's like the prince of sugar. They're called the first

633
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 1: Family of corporate Welfare because of like how much taxpayer

634
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 1: money goes into their pockets. But like that is the level.

635
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 1: One of these people decides to call the president. Right,

636
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 1: He's like, sorry, I know this is a career threatening

637
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 1: scandal that I'm trying to deal with here, but I

638
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 1: gotta I gotta take this call from this guy who

639
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 1: is the Prince of Sugarcane, who are the lanisters of

640
00:34:59,000 --> 00:34:59,799
Speaker 1: the sugar game.

641
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 5: So that's so we focus on here. And surprisingly enough,

642
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 5: much like media companies, there's a small number of people

643
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 5: pulling the levers in sugar and two of them are

644
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 5: the Funhouol brothers, and one of them is who you

645
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 5: were just talking about. And that was February of nineteen

646
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,799
Speaker 5: ninety six, and Alfi fun Whole calls Bill Clinton and

647
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 5: they say, Alfi fun Hoole's on the phone, and he

648
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 5: tells Monica Lewinsky to wait a minute, and he picks

649
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 5: up the phone and takes that call. So the Alfi

650
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 5: fund Hull brothers our Pepe Funhole and Alfi funhol Or,

651
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 5: who are the sons of extremely wealthy Cubans who were unseated.

652
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 5: They lost all their property and everything when Castro took

653
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:43,880
Speaker 5: power in Cuba, and they fled to the United States,

654
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 5: and you know, they bought some land here and they

655
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 5: eventually built an empire here. There are fewer than forty

656
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 5: five hundred farm businesses that actually produce sugar in the

657
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 5: United States, but the United States taxpayers pay more than

658
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 5: four billion dollars a year in subsidies. Yeah, we're paying

659
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 5: more than and and sugar in the United States. Is

660
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,480
Speaker 5: it's more expensive here than it is anywhere else in

661
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 5: the world. So not only are we paying more than

662
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,919
Speaker 5: four billion dollars to the people who make sugar, we're

663
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:20,399
Speaker 5: also paying more for the sugar than anywhere else.

664
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, you were saying that, like when you check the markets,

665
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:26,880
Speaker 1: like the sugar prices are like in the twenties in

666
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 1: other countries, and in the US it's like in the

667
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 1: forties or something like that. It's a double that's twice

668
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,320
Speaker 1: as expensive. It's so expensive, and we eat.

669
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 2: So much more sugar, Like we should we should get

670
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,279
Speaker 2: credit for all the sugar we eat at least or yeah, right,

671
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 2: like so much more sugar than any human species at all,

672
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 2: or any human civilization at any time in history. Give us,

673
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 2: give us a deal on all this sugar we're eating.

674
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 1: Don't try to get more.

675
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,399
Speaker 2: Wait, why why are the prices locked at that rate?

676
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 2: That's because of the subsidies that the lobby is able

677
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,280
Speaker 2: to extract, like through their lobbying efforts. Essentially.

678
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, So what we're talking about now is the Farm Bill,

679
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 5: and the Farm Bill is a piece of legislation that

680
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:10,360
Speaker 5: comes up to be reauthorized every five years, and in fact,

681
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 5: this is the year when the Farm Bill comes up

682
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:17,360
Speaker 5: for reauthorization. So there's actually quite a bit of lobbying

683
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 5: that's going on right now, and in fact, there's a

684
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 5: lot of people, including citizens like yourself, who are writing

685
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 5: letters to their representatives saying, please do not include sugar

686
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 5: subsidies in the farm Bill. That's what's in there. And

687
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,320
Speaker 5: part of the reason they're doing that is because sugar

688
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 5: farming is the way that we do it right now,

689
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 5: is environmentally catastrophic. They plant sugar cane, and because it's

690
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 5: cheaper to do it at the after they pull all

691
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 5: the cane down, they burn the fields. They burn them.

692
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 5: And there's even places in Florida where they literally have

693
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 5: legislation written in where that you can only burn them,

694
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 5: so the smoke aims towards the poor part of town

695
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 5: and it can't go the app spoken ash can't towards

696
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:07,240
Speaker 5: go towards the wealthy parts of town. Yeah, we visited

697
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:13,400
Speaker 5: a sugartown in Florida where we walked toward this elementary school.

698
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:15,280
Speaker 5: We walked in the parking lot at this elementary school

699
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 5: in one of the lower socio economic places, and I

700
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 5: was covered in ash in this elementary school parking lot coverage.

701
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, just a like you know, apocalyptic.

702
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,720
Speaker 1: It's truly like an apocalyptic landscape that is the result

703
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 1: of this system that is just funneling money to these

704
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 1: like you know oligarchs. You know they are oligart they

705
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 1: are you know, are on They can get Clinton whenever

706
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 1: they want. I'm sure things haven't changed that much. We

707
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:51,759
Speaker 1: just like know about that instance because it was like

708
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 1: such a famous meeting between him and Lewinsky. But they

709
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,879
Speaker 1: you know, there's just so much about like so much

710
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 1: just wild.

711
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 5: I should mention that Alfi von Hul's personal net worth

712
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 5: is over a billion dollars.

713
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 2: Oh.

714
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,800
Speaker 5: He had gone to that sugartown after visiting his yacht

715
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 5: and house.

716
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 2: Yacht Yeah, yeah, super hot.

717
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 5: Yes, Yes, it's private yet yeah, I mean massive, massive estate.

718
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 5: You can't we could not get anywhere near him. And

719
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 5: this is one of the things that I came away

720
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,360
Speaker 5: with after all this reporting is that if you're wealthy

721
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 5: enough to the United States, you don't have to answer

722
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 5: questions about your Yeah, you don't have to answer questions.

723
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 2: Miles.

724
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:38,839
Speaker 1: You mentioned the Lanisters and I do just you know,

725
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 1: and when when you guys dig back into like how

726
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 1: their you know, sugar empire was built, Like they built

727
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 1: their fortune by like marrying different sugar producing families, like

728
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:57,919
Speaker 1: very much, just this soulless kind of power consolidation thing

729
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 1: that happened over the course of many generations. And then

730
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:05,920
Speaker 1: they built their US fortune by getting tax benefits from

731
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 1: the Farm Act, and you know, and then they claim

732
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 1: to be self starters who you know, came here and

733
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 1: you know, Castro stole everything from them and they came

734
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:19,720
Speaker 1: and rebuilt their thing. But it's all, you know, built

735
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 1: from this generations and generations power consolidation, self mythologizing thing

736
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 1: that there's that one interview where they're talking to one

737
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 1: of them. I think it's Pepe is talking about a

738
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:37,920
Speaker 1: hotel where he spends like millions of dollars on a

739
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 1: pretty regular basis, and he says, it's just it's a

740
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 1: it's a great quote. You have to listen to the

741
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 1: podcast which I'm sure is clear by now. But he's like,

742
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:51,320
Speaker 1: it's not as grand as the Ritz in Madrid or Paris,

743
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 1: you know, which has a wonderful outdoor space to have lunch.

744
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 1: But the people here they treat you like family.

745
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:03,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, they know what, they know what I like, They.

746
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 2: Know what I like.

747
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,799
Speaker 1: They keep they have like they do photographs. They take

748
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 1: photographs of the room when he leaves, so that it's

749
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 1: like exactly everything's exactly where he wants it to be

750
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 1: when he comes back, and like that is the that

751
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:20,320
Speaker 1: is what you are buying, I guess with this just soulless,

752
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:25,399
Speaker 1: horrifying consolidation of power and wealth.

753
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 5: And this is I should also mention that Pepe fun

754
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:32,880
Speaker 5: who was friends with Jeffrey Epstein and was in his

755
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 5: infamous Black Book.

756
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 2: Of Contacts, of course.

757
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:41,239
Speaker 5: That they found as well. If you read Jeffrey Tubin's

758
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:45,439
Speaker 5: book on the subject, you would have found that in there.

759
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 5: So yeah, you know, it's just a it's the whole

760
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 5: thing is very and we haven't even started talking about

761
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 5: the labor issues.

762
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's what I want to get to next, sugar, Yeah,

763
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:57,759
Speaker 1: I want to get to next that next. But and

764
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:01,240
Speaker 1: kind of in transition to that. There's one moment where

765
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 1: someone asks if he Alphie I think it is that

766
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 1: one of the other the other brother, billionaire brother, is

767
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 1: asked if he'd ever cut sugarcane before, like the process

768
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 1: that is required to make this product that he has built.

769
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:16,319
Speaker 2: An empire on.

770
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 1: And he laughs and he says he lasted like ten

771
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 1: minutes and it was so overwhelmingly difficult he had to

772
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 1: like give up. So that's and it's not like the

773
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:29,359
Speaker 1: irony of that seems to be totally lost on him

774
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:33,359
Speaker 1: and everything involved in this system, or at least it's

775
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 1: like buried under so many layers of wealth and influence

776
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:40,440
Speaker 1: that they don't have to acknowledge it. But yeah, let's

777
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 1: take a break and we'll come back and we'll talk

778
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 1: about labor.

779
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 2: And we are back, and yeah, I.

780
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 1: Mean there's so many scenes. The trip to the town

781
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:05,920
Speaker 1: that is like the sugar camp cane plantation town that

782
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:10,799
Speaker 1: is like just you know, covered in smoke and you know,

783
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 1: just a matter. There's also like a scene I think

784
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 1: it's in the eighties maybe nineties in Florida, like the

785
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 1: Dog War where like workers strike and the police come

786
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 1: in and start arresting everyone and seeking police dogs on

787
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:28,279
Speaker 1: them and like basically deport them at the point of

788
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 1: a shotgun. And like usually when people think about labor

789
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:34,839
Speaker 1: being threatened to the point of a gun by like

790
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:38,919
Speaker 1: state power, we go back to like the nineteen twenties. Yeah,

791
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 1: pinkertons and shit. But this is happening now, Like this

792
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 1: is happening in our life.

793
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 5: Within our lifetimes.

794
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, the whole thing is just Even

795
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 6: for me, and I've been a journalist for over twenty years,

796
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 6: even for me, there were so many points in this

797
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:56,440
Speaker 6: where I was.

798
00:43:56,360 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 5: Like, are you are you kidding me? Honestly, it has

799
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:05,400
Speaker 5: put me off sugar. I can't not eat it is

800
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:09,240
Speaker 5: as I mentioned, that's really hard to do, but it has.

801
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:10,440
Speaker 5: It has put me off sugar.

802
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it feels like again like just even the

803
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:18,799
Speaker 2: historical context of it, You're like, it's it started off

804
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:20,879
Speaker 2: as like a justification for the use of.

805
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 5: Slave labor and colonization.

806
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, and now and like it's still in this like

807
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 2: obscure place where like even right now I'm like looking

808
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 2: up the fon Houl Brothers and the first thing will

809
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 2: come up. It's like, hey, part of the like Florida,

810
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 2: like agricultural Hall of Fame, and there's nothing like so

811
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 2: these people are allowed to still live in this like

812
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:44,880
Speaker 2: very weird, like you know, semi obscurity while being you know,

813
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:46,800
Speaker 2: like at the wheel of one of the most fucked

814
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:50,440
Speaker 2: up industries in terms of like health outcomes and labor.

815
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 2: And yeah, I mean, I guess. So now we are

816
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:55,840
Speaker 2: in a what when you say slavery now with sugar

817
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,879
Speaker 2: cane or sugar plantations and there the farming of it.

818
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 2: Are we talking? What what kind of slavery? Which is so

819
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 2: weird to ask, what are the dement like? What does

820
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:08,400
Speaker 2: that look like in this modern context?

821
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,400
Speaker 5: At the center of our podcast is this long year's

822
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:17,479
Speaker 5: long case that was on behalf of a large number

823
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 5: of cane cutters. For a long time, American sugar producers

824
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 5: used immigrants from H one n one workers from Jamaica.

825
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 5: And part of the reason they admitted that they used

826
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 5: workers from Jamaica was because a they couldn't get American

827
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 5: workers to do the work for that low of pay.

828
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 5: It was incredibly dangerous and hard work, and also American

829
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 5: workers would faint from the heat. So they brought in

830
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:44,800
Speaker 5: Jamaican workers and had them do it for a long time,

831
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 5: and it gave them a lot of control because if

832
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 5: they were ever if they ever angered the boss, they

833
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 5: could immediately deport.

834
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 2: Them send them back.

835
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 5: So after this this long case, they automated the fields.

836
00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 5: So even though the machines are not as th row,

837
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 5: they don't get every single cane the way that the

838
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:06,880
Speaker 5: workers did. In the end, they found it to be

839
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 5: more cost effective than using workers because machines don't file

840
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 5: class action lawsuits against you, right exactly, They don't chop

841
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:23,279
Speaker 5: their fingers and limbs off. Although they never it's not

842
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 5: like they got them real medical attention, right. So when

843
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:31,239
Speaker 5: we talk about slavery, a this is an industry that

844
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 5: is just intertwined with the history of slavery. It's impossible

845
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 5: to tear them apart. For me personally, I think that

846
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 5: the United States is kind of an era of wage

847
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:46,840
Speaker 5: slavery in a lot of different industries just kind of

848
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:51,319
Speaker 5: writ large, which is a whole separate subject. But when

849
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 5: it comes to slavery in and of itself, even though

850
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:57,320
Speaker 5: in the United States we have mechanized a lot of

851
00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:00,880
Speaker 5: sugar production, we get a lot of our sugar ourcane

852
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:05,279
Speaker 5: is cut in other countries like Dominican Republican elsewhere where,

853
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:08,520
Speaker 5: it is still the same kind of conditions as we

854
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:12,160
Speaker 5: had here on these farms that we were talking about

855
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:14,799
Speaker 5: in the podcast. So that's what we're talking about.

856
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:19,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, So in this case, early on there is this

857
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 1: you know, for first of all, lawyers who are advocating

858
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 1: on behalf of farm workers are treated just you know,

859
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 1: it's very like at one point one of them, one

860
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 1: of the lawyers who's advocating on behalf of labor, like

861
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:40,479
Speaker 1: gets a call from you know, somebody. Now I don't

862
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:42,720
Speaker 1: know that it was in the sugar industry, but they say, listen,

863
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:45,399
Speaker 1: I'm about to leave town and I want to kill you.

864
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:47,799
Speaker 1: I want you to drive down to my farm so

865
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:53,400
Speaker 1: I can shoot you, yeah, which he politely declines. But

866
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:59,200
Speaker 1: it's just there's so much going against anybody trying to

867
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 1: advocate on being half of people who are being abused

868
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 1: or enslaved by these massive industries. And so these lawyers

869
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 1: get together this class action lawsuit, they win a case,

870
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:20,839
Speaker 1: and then you know, they immediately like because it's very

871
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:23,000
Speaker 1: clear cut. It's like the sugar companies said they were

872
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 1: going to pay one thing in this contract and then

873
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 1: did not pay that to them and paid like basically

874
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 1: way less than minimum wage.

875
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:33,839
Speaker 2: But then it as it gets to.

876
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 1: Higher courts through an appeals process. Yeah, through the appeals process,

877
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 1: Like it really felt like the low level judge was

878
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:46,240
Speaker 1: able to see what was accurate, like see the truth

879
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:51,920
Speaker 1: because presumably like she wasn't the industry hadn't bothered to

880
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 1: buy her offer or something like. Because it's like, as

881
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 1: it gets higher and higher, like these judges just suddenly

882
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:04,720
Speaker 1: aren't making these kind of questionable, baffling decisions that really

883
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:06,960
Speaker 1: favor the sugar industry.

884
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 5: So a couple things. First of all, it was and

885
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 5: I'm saying all this to the best of my ability,

886
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:17,440
Speaker 5: none of this is obviously proven. So for as far

887
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 5: as I can tell, in my opinion, it looks as though,

888
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:27,919
Speaker 5: possibly intentionally, things were made as confusing as possible. When

889
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:33,360
Speaker 5: it came to recording hours and wages, we know for

890
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:38,719
Speaker 5: sure that the hours people worked were not always accurate.

891
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:42,840
Speaker 5: And we know that for sure because they found record

892
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 5: books in which there were changes made to how many

893
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:50,839
Speaker 5: hours people worked in order to pay them less per ton, Right,

894
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:53,960
Speaker 5: Like if someone had worked a certain number of hours

895
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,279
Speaker 5: per day, it was changed to six hours per day

896
00:49:56,360 --> 00:50:00,160
Speaker 5: instead so they could pay them less and it If

897
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:02,279
Speaker 5: this sounds confusing, even with the way that I'm saying

898
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 5: it right now, you can understand why maybe the sugar

899
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 5: companies thought the judge wouldn't get it. So it seemed

900
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:11,760
Speaker 5: to me, as I was reading through all this stuff,

901
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:13,479
Speaker 5: and I had to read through it four or five

902
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 5: six times, that possibly they banked on the fact that

903
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:21,319
Speaker 5: the judge wouldn't get it. Now, I will say that

904
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 5: it was only the fun Holes actually let it go

905
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 5: to court. The other sugar companies settled, So the fun

906
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:33,840
Speaker 5: Hools insisted on fighting this, and they fought it for years.

907
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:39,760
Speaker 5: I would guess they probably spent well a lot more

908
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:42,759
Speaker 5: in fighting this than the other companies had settled for.

909
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, but they had this idealistic vision of themselves as like,

910
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 1: you know, we came and built this thing from nothing principle.

911
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, but it does, I don't know, it

912
00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:59,759
Speaker 1: does feel like the low level, lower level judge was

913
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:00,840
Speaker 1: able to figure it out.

914
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:04,320
Speaker 5: Yes, But you know, here's the thing. If you follow

915
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 5: this whole and I don't want to give it away

916
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:09,560
Speaker 5: because frankly, it's a really compelling story this case as

917
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:13,760
Speaker 5: you follow it through. But in the end, the only

918
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:21,800
Speaker 5: defense they have is this centuries old like pre Civil

919
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 5: War law, Right, that's the only way they end up

920
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 5: being able to prevail. And when you finally realize this,

921
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 5: when you get to the end, that that's how they

922
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:39,799
Speaker 5: are able to keep from paying these workers. Yeah, you know,

923
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 5: it just feels so spiteful to me. I mean, these

924
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:47,560
Speaker 5: are workers who even the smallest amount of money would

925
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:50,920
Speaker 5: have made such a difference to their lives. Yeah, you know,

926
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:57,959
Speaker 5: and they spent more than that on lawyer's fees and.

927
00:51:56,680 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 2: For what for what? Yeah, their margin a little bit, well.

928
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:03,719
Speaker 5: You know, for the twenty three million. I mean, it

929
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 5: wasn't even for the twenty three million dollar yacht sitting

930
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:08,400
Speaker 5: behind his house, because again, they spent more than that

931
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:09,000
Speaker 5: on their.

932
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:13,279
Speaker 2: Attorneys, right, I mean you know that. I was just

933
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:16,239
Speaker 2: looking at the political donations of this family because I

934
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:18,239
Speaker 2: was just like, oh, let me, let me see, and like, oh,

935
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 2: you guys are that big because you give it to everybody, everybody,

936
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 2: you know, they're not just like we're we're into conservative politics.

937
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 2: They were giving money to Maxwell Frost, the youngest member

938
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:30,680
Speaker 2: of Congress out of Florida, like maxing out and you're like,

939
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:35,440
Speaker 2: oh shit, Okay, like people, I'm sure they know you, like,

940
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:38,000
Speaker 2: especially if you live in Florida, because they I mean,

941
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:41,080
Speaker 2: it's like every single person in Congress is getting money

942
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 2: from them, and I'm sure many people just probably think

943
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:45,160
Speaker 2: of them as like, oh, yeah, they're like a farming family.

944
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:48,359
Speaker 2: And I wonder if what someone like like a more

945
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:51,279
Speaker 2: progressive politician would think about being like, yo, do do

946
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:54,320
Speaker 2: you know, like what's up with that? Do you understand

947
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 2: like like where that money is coming from and how

948
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 2: that might be a little bit problematic in terms of

949
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 2: someone's politics. But again, we're in the age of corporate

950
00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 2: funded entities in Congress, so it's.

951
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:06,200
Speaker 5: See what now you see the purpose one of the

952
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:08,960
Speaker 5: purposes of the podcast, like this is the whole reason

953
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:09,359
Speaker 5: for this.

954
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:13,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that people do know, yeah, what's.

955
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:14,480
Speaker 5: Going on here?

956
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:17,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I'm like, wow, you're giving to like doctor Oz,

957
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 2: Joe Manchin any but Debbie Wasserman Schultz, like everybody that

958
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:26,560
Speaker 2: basically has any kind of saying I'm sure they. I'm

959
00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:28,680
Speaker 2: sure there are people who run their pack or whatever

960
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:31,840
Speaker 2: their political spending or savvy enough to know where to

961
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 2: send that money based on committee assignments and all that.

962
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:38,799
Speaker 2: But yeah, it's wow. Yeah, it's why not playing well?

963
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:41,240
Speaker 1: Celeste, thank you so much for coming on talking about

964
00:53:41,239 --> 00:53:44,360
Speaker 1: the show. The show is called Big Sugar and it

965
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:48,359
Speaker 1: drops this week, right it does. Yeah, So you can

966
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:52,560
Speaker 1: go find that wherever fine podcasts are published. Where can

967
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:55,759
Speaker 1: people find you, follow you, find out more about all

968
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:56,280
Speaker 1: this stuff.

969
00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 5: So my website is just Celesteheadley dot com for the

970
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:04,080
Speaker 5: moment on Twitter all on that last, and that's almost

971
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:06,800
Speaker 5: the only social media besides Instagram where I put post

972
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:07,759
Speaker 5: post pictures of.

973
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:11,120
Speaker 2: My dog and your dog? Is there sugar? Is there

974
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:12,359
Speaker 2: sugar in art pet food too?

975
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:14,440
Speaker 5: Not the pet food I buy?

976
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:17,480
Speaker 2: Okay, good to know, yes.

977
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:18,840
Speaker 5: But you got to read the label. Read the label.

978
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:22,319
Speaker 2: One question though, when they say added sugar, is that

979
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:26,080
Speaker 2: like another Is that another ploy of the industry or

980
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:28,200
Speaker 2: that's more just to say about the process, because other

981
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:30,400
Speaker 2: times you see like no added sugar aside from the

982
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:32,080
Speaker 2: stuff that's like naturally occurring.

983
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:33,120
Speaker 5: And it's already in it. Yeah?

984
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:35,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, Is that is that a way to be like

985
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:44,040
Speaker 2: adding it to that? Yeah? Yeah, sense it's all around cleus.

986
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:46,480
Speaker 1: Does there a work of media that you've been enjoying.

987
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:51,160
Speaker 5: A work of media? Actually, I just shared on on

988
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:54,719
Speaker 5: Twitter today. This really the short video from a kind

989
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:58,080
Speaker 5: named mic O Vaughn and you can find it. Actually

990
00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:00,600
Speaker 5: I retweeted it, but he sent it out on on

991
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:05,480
Speaker 5: Instagram and it's he made it a satire video about

992
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:08,600
Speaker 5: a product called could You Fucking Not? And it's for

993
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:13,160
Speaker 5: people who men who have correct ale dysfunction and correct

994
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:15,120
Speaker 5: women who know more about a subject than they do.

995
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:19,480
Speaker 5: So it's pretty brilliant and I have probably watched it

996
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:21,279
Speaker 5: like ten times maybe.

997
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:23,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, Miles, where can people find you?

998
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:26,560
Speaker 1: What is the work at media you've been enjoying? Uh?

999
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:30,000
Speaker 2: You can find me on Twitter, Instagram, other at based

1000
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 2: entities at Miles of Gray. Also, if you want to

1001
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:37,880
Speaker 2: hear some basketball chatter, check out Jacket and Eyes basketball podcast.

1002
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:40,799
Speaker 2: Miles and Jack Got Mad Mousies. You know, don't talking

1003
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:42,799
Speaker 2: about the off season. There's still a lot to talk about,

1004
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:45,319
Speaker 2: believe it or not, because there's so much happening. And

1005
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:47,840
Speaker 2: I saw Victor webbin Yama get absolutely swarmed at the

1006
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:51,279
Speaker 2: airport as he touched down for a Draft day. And

1007
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:52,960
Speaker 2: then also if you want to hear me talk about

1008
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:55,160
Speaker 2: my favorite trash reality shows, check me out on four

1009
00:55:55,239 --> 00:55:59,239
Speaker 2: to twenty Day Fiance with Sophia Alexandra a tweet that

1010
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:03,400
Speaker 2: I like, you know, just like this. There's this tweet

1011
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:05,840
Speaker 2: of just like one of the strike signs from the

1012
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:11,400
Speaker 2: writer's strike that's happening. And at Joe Russo tweets, just

1013
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:13,680
Speaker 2: put up a screen or like a picture of one

1014
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:15,600
Speaker 2: of these like picket signs with a quote from an

1015
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:18,760
Speaker 2: Apple executive that said quote, writers think they're the center

1016
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:23,200
Speaker 2: of the fucking universe. And you're like, wow, well yeah,

1017
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:27,200
Speaker 2: you kind of need that for your little ideas. But

1018
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:30,640
Speaker 2: but go off, Apple executive. It's just interesting to see,

1019
00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:33,439
Speaker 2: you know how, just their perspective all the time about

1020
00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:35,480
Speaker 2: being like they think they're this, it's us. We have

1021
00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:37,960
Speaker 2: the money, and I'm sure they have the ideas that

1022
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:40,799
Speaker 2: helped make the money. But come the fuck off. Good

1023
00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:41,960
Speaker 2: luck to that good luck.

1024
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:48,400
Speaker 1: A couple McDonald's based tweets. Will Send It tweeted losing

1025
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:50,640
Speaker 1: my lust for life. Just ate a big Mac and

1026
00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:53,239
Speaker 1: didn't grin or chuckle at all. I only said who

1027
00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:56,760
Speaker 1: has it better than me? Two times? It's no idiot,

1028
00:56:57,160 --> 00:57:01,600
Speaker 1: Big Mac. And then hex and Kraft tweeted pronouncing Grimace

1029
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:08,200
Speaker 1: like VERSACEI so Grimachi is a good, good way to put.

1030
00:57:08,120 --> 00:57:11,839
Speaker 2: A little pizzazz. Yeah, exactly, like saying like asparta may

1031
00:57:13,239 --> 00:57:14,360
Speaker 2: That's right exactly.

1032
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:18,000
Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter, Jack Underscore Obrian. You

1033
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:20,240
Speaker 1: can find us on Twitter at daily Zeikeeist. We're at

1034
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:23,160
Speaker 1: d daily Zeikeist on Instagram. We have Facebook fan page

1035
00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:25,960
Speaker 1: and a website, Daily zeikeist dot com. Worry post our

1036
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:30,080
Speaker 1: episodes and our footnote. We link off the information that

1037
00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 1: we talked about in today's episode, as well as a

1038
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:34,440
Speaker 1: song that we think you might enjoy. Miles is their

1039
00:57:34,520 --> 00:57:35,680
Speaker 1: song you think people mightn't.

1040
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:39,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've stumbled upon a really cool I think quart

1041
00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:41,720
Speaker 2: Yeah it is. I like, I think they're a quartet.

1042
00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:46,360
Speaker 2: They're called Speaker's Corner Quartet. I'm like, I think, yeah,

1043
00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:49,680
Speaker 2: they're quartet from London. Really great musicians, Like if you

1044
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:53,640
Speaker 2: like Hiatus, Coyote or bands with like high musician fluency

1045
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:56,560
Speaker 2: kind of vibes, this is a This is a great

1046
00:57:56,640 --> 00:58:01,320
Speaker 2: band and this track is called Soapbox Soliloquy, really really

1047
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:04,280
Speaker 2: great track. If you like live bands with that hip

1048
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:07,320
Speaker 2: hop feel and good musicianship, this tracks for you. So

1049
00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:11,600
Speaker 2: check out Soapbox Soliloquy by Speakers Corner Quartet. All Right, well.

1050
00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 2: The daily is Eitgeist is a production by Heart Radio.

1051
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:17,320
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast,

1052
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:19,200
Speaker 1: or wherever you list your favorite shows. That's going to

1053
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:21,600
Speaker 1: do it for us this morning. You're back this afternoon

1054
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:24,040
Speaker 1: to tell you what is trending and we will talk

1055
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:24,520
Speaker 1: to you all then.

1056
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:27,560
Speaker 2: Bye bye,