1 00:00:02,160 --> 00:00:03,840 Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, I want to let you know that we 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:06,880 Speaker 1: talk about suicide in this episode. There are some links 3 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:22,079 Speaker 1: to resources in the episode description if you need them. 4 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: I loved everything about my life, and then I joined 5 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: this convent to follow God, thinking in my mind that 6 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:32,159 Speaker 1: everyone was going to love everyone and it was going 7 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: to be double what I had at home, and it 8 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:39,879 Speaker 1: was completely different. I said, meet me up on the 9 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: third floor, and then she came up and I just 10 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: was crying and saying, I just I can't do this anymore. 11 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: So I said her, can you? I don't know how 12 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: to get out, like how do I get out from 13 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: a cocoa punch? And I heard radio this is the Turning. 14 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: I'm Aerica Lance, Part six, the third floor. I'm Sue Webber. 15 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 1: Do you want like that little brief bio blah blah 16 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:19,760 Speaker 1: or just the whole bio? So I'm Sue Webber? And 17 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: who are you? I'm Joan Worcester And how do you 18 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: two know each other? We're sisters? So let me clarify. 19 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:32,120 Speaker 1: Joan and Sue are former sisters with the Missionaries of Charity, 20 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: but they're also sisters like actual real life sisters, and 21 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: we're the same age. For thirteen days. Joan and Sue 22 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: live in Pennsylvania. They huddle over a computer at jones 23 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: house to video chat with me, squeezing together so they 24 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: can both fit in the frame. I'm I'm far more 25 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: stubborn than you are. What don't you say? Are you 26 00:01:53,320 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: pretty startled? We're all stubborn. It's a family trade. I 27 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: don't take a lot of things personally at all. I'm 28 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: more sensitive. She's much more sensitive. You're super protective too, 29 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: for people who get hurt. I seek for justice a lot. 30 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: That's a commonality, and I think that has to do 31 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: with the convent. But I've come to seek justice and 32 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:23,359 Speaker 1: truth and everything that I do and say. Joan, the 33 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 1: younger sister, has a certain gentleness. Sometimes she goes for 34 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 1: a while without saying anything. She just listens. Jones says 35 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,920 Speaker 1: her intimate relationship with God drives everything she does. I 36 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: was the type of person that was always trying to 37 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: please God, and then I realized that that he loves 38 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 1: us unconditionally, and he loves us no matter where we 39 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:46,959 Speaker 1: are in life. Sue, the older sister, is bold and open, 40 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,919 Speaker 1: short haircut, big personality. Says it like it is. I'm 41 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: out there I'm like up for anything. Joan and Sue 42 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: both joined the MCS. Unlike every sister, they followed the 43 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 1: vow of obedience. The vow commits sisters to the power 44 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 1: structure in the m c S. You vowed to obey God. 45 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: By obeying your superior promptly and without question, you become 46 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: a pencil in God's hand, as Mother Teresa said, or 47 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 1: as a former sister put it, a tool without will 48 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 1: or opinion of your own. That didn't work for Sue 49 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,359 Speaker 1: and Joan. Their story shows how power works in the 50 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:22,920 Speaker 1: order who has power, what happens as a result, and 51 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: what happens when you push back on it. Sue would 52 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:30,079 Speaker 1: grapple with this from above as a superior, Joan from below. 53 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: Joan and Sue grew up in the nineteen seventies in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, 54 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: a small city in the middle of Amish Country. They 55 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: went to Catholic school. At the time, Joan, the younger sister, 56 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: toyed with the idea of going to college on a 57 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: track scholarship, but she told me, in my soul until 58 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: I die, I know I was meant to be a nun. 59 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: So in nineteen eighties she going to Franciscan Order of Nuns. 60 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 1: She was nineteen years old, but something was missing. The 61 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: Franciscans she was with took a vow of poverty, but 62 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: she didn't feel they took it far enough. Life was 63 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: too comfortable. And then she learned more about Mother Teresa. 64 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: I started reading some books about her and I'm like, oh, 65 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 1: my word, she has it. While Joan was thinking about 66 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: switching to the Missionaries of Charity, Sue beat her to it. 67 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: She joined the m c's herself. Sue was twenty and 68 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: she says the life suitor, especially helping the poor. When 69 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: I asked her to tell me about some of the 70 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:34,600 Speaker 1: moments she found beautiful, she didn't know where to start. Thousands, literally, 71 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 1: there are thousands of incredible, incredible beauty working among the poor, 72 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 1: potentially making a difference in their lives. Six months in, 73 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 1: Sue got some news. Her mistress told her that Joan 74 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: was joining the MCS. She was leaving the Franciscans and 75 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:53,599 Speaker 1: coming to the same convent as Sue. The mistress cautioned Sue, 76 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 1: remember no preferential love, even for family. When Joan joined, 77 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 1: she learned the MCS had a different approach for starters. 78 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 1: No psychological test. The Franciscans required aspiring nuns to take one. 79 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: I actually think it's super important because I think what 80 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 1: happens is you're getting women who have mental issues, right. 81 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,720 Speaker 1: And mother would just say, just love the sisters no 82 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:18,559 Speaker 1: matter what. But we had to live with them daily 83 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 1: life was different to the MCS. Were much more regimented, 84 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: and she noticed that the MCS didn't hug each other. Well, 85 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 1: the Franciscan she'd been with hugged all the time. Nobody 86 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: looks at anybody, nobody talks to anybody. It's grand silence. 87 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 1: And Joan felt the m c s did poverty right. 88 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 1: The poverty was, in my estimation, sensational, like everything we 89 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 1: owned fit in a bucket. I love the simplicity. Since 90 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 1: Joan was new, it was nice to see a familiar face. 91 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:54,840 Speaker 1: But my sister was rooted into the Missionaries of Charity 92 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 1: way of life, right, So when there was complete silence, 93 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: you know, I'd walk by here and kind of wink 94 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 1: and do the things that I would do because I 95 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: was just beginning. I'd nod or smile, and you know, 96 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: she did do that when it was just her and I, 97 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 1: but when she was in the group, she would pass 98 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:12,920 Speaker 1: me and not look at me, and I'd be like, oh, 99 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: because I was following the rules. She was a good nun. 100 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: I don't know just in the beginning. A year later though, 101 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: when they'd both be in a convent in San Francisco, 102 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:29,159 Speaker 1: they'd be more flexible, and then the vision we did 103 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:34,239 Speaker 1: sneak off a lot of times on the really third floor. 104 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: On the third floor, well, my mom would send care packages, 105 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 1: like of cookies, and especially around the holidays, they had 106 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: to turn any packages over to the superior. From there 107 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 1: it was usually given to the poor or shared with 108 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 1: the whole convent. But sometimes Sue would say to herself, 109 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: these are my favorites, these are jones favorite. So then 110 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: I would like hide them, and then I would see 111 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:01,279 Speaker 1: Joan and I'd be like, meet me up on the 112 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: third floor. And then we would sit up on these 113 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 1: stacks of mattresses and eat the cookies and enjoyed every moment. 114 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: Be worth any penance that we never got caught. No, 115 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: we didn't. We're good. You guys have both preferred to pendence. 116 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: And I was just wondering, when you say penance, are 117 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: you thinking of the discipline change that kind of thing 118 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: you can go first. Good, okay, so um, I only 119 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: share with very intimate people, which is like my fellow 120 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: sisters who left. I don't know if Mom even knows 121 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: that she I think she does. Okay, well she saw 122 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:50,239 Speaker 1: your change. It's a question, so questions. So I didn't bracelet. 123 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 1: But here's the thing, and I will make my full 124 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: confession right here, right now, that I was not faithful 125 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: to my penances because I thought they were crazy. Joan's 126 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: group of Aspirans learned about the discipline a few months in. 127 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 1: So then they said, you can go to the bathroom. 128 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 1: But I go into the stall and I just I 129 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: couldn't do it. And I heard the sister next to me, 130 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: who was totally independences, and she was beating herself. I 131 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: could hear her. I'm thinking, dear God, i'd be yelling, 132 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: oh you know. And I thought, okay, I gotta do 133 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: something because they're probably listening to me as I'm listening 134 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: to them. So I hit the sides of the walls 135 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: of the toilet, and I was just going, you know, 136 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: hitting the sides instead of hitting myself because I couldn't 137 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:35,719 Speaker 1: do it. And then gradually I began to do it, 138 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 1: and I then didn't have problems with it because I 139 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 1: do believe that if you do sacrifice yourself, I can 140 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 1: gain grace with myself and I can also help someone 141 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 1: else's soul. I believe that to this day. I believe that. 142 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: Soon Joan took the discipline every day. Then she got 143 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: the spiked arm chain, which she wore during mass. I 144 00:08:57,480 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: put it on, and you're supposed to fold your hands 145 00:08:59,880 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 1: because then it digs into your arm, and I felt Christ. 146 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 1: I felt him as i've never I mean, I felt him. 147 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: I think the injustice came when rules were different for 148 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 1: different people. So for example, one of the rules was 149 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 1: you can't go home because we have to live a 150 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:27,079 Speaker 1: life of poverty. But then a regional superior who really 151 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: liked another sister, she got to go home for her 152 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:33,079 Speaker 1: parents funeral. It's it's everybody's at the mercy of whoever 153 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 1: has power. They become the voice of God for you. 154 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: That's all they keep saying. I'm the voice of God 155 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:42,319 Speaker 1: for you at this moment, under your valuve obedience right, 156 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: no matter what it is, And they use God as 157 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 1: the weapon. M hmm. Joan felt that weapon, and this 158 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: is where her story diverged from SEUs in New York. 159 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: I got something in my stomach where I was really, 160 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,079 Speaker 1: really sick. She was in so much pain she had 161 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 1: to crawl down the stairs. Her mistress didn't offer support. 162 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 1: I would go to her and said, I'm really sick, 163 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: and she would say, just you know, give it to Jesus, 164 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 1: offer it up, you'll be fine. One day a volunteer 165 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 1: saw Joan and the condition she was in and she said, 166 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 1: this little child needs to go to the doctor, but 167 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: Jones mistress said no, it was the superior's decision to 168 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: make and the superior was away. So I just continued 169 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: on every day crawling down the stairs. She maybe come 170 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: down to church no matter what, whether I was sick 171 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 1: or not, I had to come into try to work, 172 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:38,679 Speaker 1: which I couldn't. When the volunteer came back, she decided 173 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: to take charge. She said, sister, go get your shoes. 174 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: You're going to die. You have to go. Joan found 175 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: out she had pancreatitis. Left untreated, it can be really serious. 176 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 1: So that's how it started. Jones stayed in the hospital 177 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 1: for a week. When she returned to the convent, she 178 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: says something she aged with her mistress. She targeted Joan 179 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: and she was relentless. First she accused Joan of being 180 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:09,199 Speaker 1: too friendly with a man, a seminarian who had prayed 181 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 1: with her while she was in the hospital, then of 182 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 1: trying to seduce the men coming into the soup kitchen 183 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: for meals. I was like shocked. I was shocked that 184 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: she was saying it. I never even thought it. I'm 185 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 1: not going after anyone. So she accused me of that 186 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 1: and so much more. Jones says it was impossible to 187 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: please her, Like the time her mistress told her to 188 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: teach English to some sisters from South America. Joan didn't 189 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 1: know any Spanish. She says. She did her best to 190 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:39,439 Speaker 1: teach them, but every time one of the sisters made 191 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: a mistake in English, the mistress made Joan do penance. 192 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 1: So I used to tell them to not speak. I said, 193 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 1: can you please not just speak and save me from 194 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: my penances. Sometimes her mistress made her kneel in silence 195 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: beside the refectory table. Well, everyone else ate and talked. 196 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 1: These humiliations, the accusations, the little dig they all piled up. 197 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 1: She would tell me I wasn't holy, Tell me I 198 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 1: was prideful, Tell me that Jesus knows You're a fake 199 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:09,599 Speaker 1: and a phony, and all these kinds of things. She 200 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 1: would say to me. Right, So, um, I must have 201 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 1: been really hard to hear. It was very hard. Joan 202 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: began to question her vocation. Is this really what God 203 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: wanted for her? After six months, she was sent to 204 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 1: a convent in Chicago for postulancy with a new mistress. 205 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: I've thought I died and went to heaven. She was wonderful, beautiful, 206 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: free from the belittling mistress in New York, john could 207 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: focus on the parts of religious life that fueled her 208 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,119 Speaker 1: visiting shed In's, working at the soup kitchens and shelters. 209 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: But then words spread that the mistress in New York 210 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: might be transferred to Chicago. Panic said in one sister 211 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: in my group she took an iron and burnt her 212 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: leg as penance penance so the mistress wouldn't be assigned 213 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 1: to Chicago. That's how much people did not like her. 214 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: But the penance was in vain. The mistress transferred to Chicago, 215 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:07,200 Speaker 1: and Jones says she started right in again. She would 216 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 1: call me in and she would scream at me and 217 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: tell me that I'm very irresponsible, and she would yell 218 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,199 Speaker 1: at me and say you're stupid. There were times when 219 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 1: Joan had no idea what she had done wrong. She 220 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: cried in the chapel and prayed, why is this happening? 221 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: Why are you allowing this to happen to me? I 222 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 1: only wanted to come and serve you. I was angry 223 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:30,319 Speaker 1: and hurt and sad, and I was all of those. Finally, 224 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 1: Jane spoke with her superior, the nune above her mistress. 225 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:36,440 Speaker 1: She tried to explain it all, but the superior told 226 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: Joan to forgive her mistress. She said, can you try 227 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 1: and love her? I said, okay, I'll try. But there 228 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 1: was only so much Joan could take. She was at 229 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 1: a breaking point, so she turned to the one person 230 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:54,319 Speaker 1: she thought could change things, Mother Teresa. When Mother Teresa visited, 231 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 1: Joan had a one on one meeting with her. She says. 232 00:13:57,640 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 1: She told Mother Teresa everything that happened with her miss 233 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 1: us and I was crying and sobbing, and I said, 234 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't think Jesus wants me here. Mother, 235 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 1: I don't know what to do. And she said, Sister 236 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 1: Maria Fatima, be only all for Jesus. And of course, 237 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 1: in my head, I'm thinking, really that's all you got. 238 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: That's what you're gonna tell me. You're not going to 239 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,200 Speaker 1: take this evil woman away from me. You're not going 240 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 1: to stop this abuse. You're not going to do anything 241 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 1: about it. You're just gonna let me continue to suffer. 242 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: That's how I say that. No, I was thinking I'd 243 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 1: say a words, mother, Teresa, you know what I mean, 244 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 1: say a word. That's the difference between me and my sister. 245 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: My sister would have told her. I would not have 246 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: to skip quiet. I just accepted it. By now, Joan 247 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: had been in the order for a year. It was 248 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 1: time to become a novice, which for her meant to 249 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 1: transfer to San Francisco, the same convent as Sue. Before 250 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: she left, she had a meeting with her mistress and 251 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 1: she said, I know that I've been very very hard 252 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: on you. I wanted to break your spirit. I wanted 253 00:14:57,440 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 1: you to become humble because I know you're going to 254 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: be something great in this community. And I said to her, 255 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 1: and I'm going to tell you something. You as a 256 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: mistress have the power to make or break a vocation, 257 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: and you have broken mind and you live with that 258 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 1: in California. Sue had no idea what her younger sister 259 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: was going through. Even now that they were in the 260 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 1: same convent, they couldn't really talk about it. Joan hung on, 261 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: but she was fragile. And then she got a package 262 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 1: from her mom. It was full of family photos, pictures 263 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: of our family reunion. And I think because I was 264 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: struggling so much there at that moment, that when she 265 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: sent those pictures, it was a trigger for me. So 266 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: that day, Joan found her big sister and told her 267 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: to go to their spot. I said, meet me up 268 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: on the third floor. And then she came up and 269 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 1: I just was crying and saying, I just I can't 270 00:15:54,120 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: do this anymore. Um I know me too, because we're 271 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 1: both going to be crying right here. And so I 272 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 1: said to her, can you I don't know how to 273 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: get out, Like, how do I get out? You could 274 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: tell that she was suffering, like you could just physically 275 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: tell she was suffering, and I was super clear if 276 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: she stayed, it would have been so massively unhealthy. And 277 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: she said, the only way you can get out is 278 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: if you say that you can't live the celibate life, 279 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 1: because every other way they would talk you into staying. 280 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 1: So I went down to the sister, and I said, um, 281 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: I can't live the celibate life, like every time I 282 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: go in a tram car, look at guys. It was 283 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 1: all lies. It wasn't true. But I told her that, 284 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 1: and she said, if you would have said anything else, 285 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 1: I would have asked you to stay. But because you 286 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 1: said you can't live the celibate life, I understand that 287 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: that's a gift from God. And from there that it 288 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 1: was kind of quick, like call your parents and I 289 00:16:58,280 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: said to meet me, and that I was getting all 290 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: this flight. And then it was all like kind of 291 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: quietly done, like hush, hush, go down and get clothing. 292 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 1: At this time, I'm super skinny and kind of sickly looking, 293 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,440 Speaker 1: but I put clothing on, and I still felt that 294 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: I was called. She truly felt called. And then there 295 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:24,919 Speaker 1: was no healthy soil for that call to grow. The 296 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: saddest part for me was that my soul didn't want 297 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 1: to leave because I love the work and I loved 298 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:35,679 Speaker 1: the prayer, I loved the whole life. But mentally I 299 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:45,479 Speaker 1: was losing Joan. And then I went into the chapel 300 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 1: and my name was Sister Maria Fatima, and everybody there 301 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: was singing this our Lady of Fatima song and I 302 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 1: was kneeling and I was crying. It was like I 303 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 1: was having an out of body experience. When I walked 304 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 1: out the door, I left my soul in the chapel. 305 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:07,400 Speaker 1: The very depth of my soul was still there because 306 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,199 Speaker 1: I didn't really want to go, but my body was 307 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: taking me out and it was so painful to watch. 308 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:19,199 Speaker 1: And then for me the fear of like is that 309 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 1: going to happen to me? Like? Am I going to 310 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 1: lose myself? Even though Joan left, Sue stayed. She progressed 311 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: through the ranks of the order, took her first vows, 312 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 1: took her final vows, she became a superior, and she 313 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: stayed in the m CS for over a decade, working 314 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 1: all over the country in women's shelters and soup kitchens. 315 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 1: Sue says her outspoken nature helped and she knew how 316 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: to navigate the system, like the time Mother Teresa visited 317 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:04,879 Speaker 1: the empty house in Baton Rouge where Sue was running 318 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:07,439 Speaker 1: a summer camp. She'd be like, how's it going it? 319 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 1: And I basically lied. I basically said, oh, it's just 320 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: really hard, because I knew she wouldn't transfer me. Wow. 321 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 1: But if I would have went in and said, oh, 322 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 1: I love it here, and I probably would have got transfer. 323 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 1: You kind of learned the code to continue doing what 324 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 1: you wanted, because I've definitely heard from other people, you know, 325 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 1: expressing a lot of enthusiasm for something and then getting 326 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 1: pulled off of that job, like, Oh, she's enjoying that 327 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:35,239 Speaker 1: too much. Yes, I think that happened a lot. And 328 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,120 Speaker 1: I'm super intuitive in that way, so as soon as 329 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 1: I know the code, I'm in. Sue had been an 330 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: EMC for about ten years. When she became a superior, 331 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,439 Speaker 1: she was transferred to the m C Eight's Hospice in 332 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 1: San Francisco. It was a three story wooden house. The 333 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:53,399 Speaker 1: sisters lived on the first floor. So when I first 334 00:19:53,440 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: got there, there were six of us total, and there 335 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: were three that I would say could function and carry 336 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 1: out duties well, and there were three that were really struggling. First, 337 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 1: she had to learn to manage the house with no training. 338 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,119 Speaker 1: So you kind of go in blind. You don't kind 339 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: of go in blind. You go in blind, just pray 340 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:20,679 Speaker 1: and you'll get the grace to do what needs to 341 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:24,360 Speaker 1: be done. So she relied on her intuition in the hospice. 342 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:27,200 Speaker 1: It was rewarding to care for these men with aids 343 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 1: who were dying. Most of these men were rejected from 344 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: their families. Like when we tried to reach their families, 345 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 1: they didn't want anything to do with it. I mean 346 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 1: that was the early nineties. The stigma was still there. 347 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:48,640 Speaker 1: This one young man, Lamont, and he was young, beautiful, funny. 348 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: We contacted his family. I mean at this time, he 349 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:54,479 Speaker 1: couldn't get up, he couldn't sit up. I mean, he 350 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 1: was completely bedridden. And so I said to him, Hey, 351 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 1: I have a surprise for you, and then he's said 352 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:04,199 Speaker 1: what First, I just brought his mother, and he just 353 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:06,920 Speaker 1: burst into tears, and she burst into tears, and then 354 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 1: she came over and held him almost like a child again. 355 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 1: I got underneath him and held him and just kept 356 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: kissing him and telling him how much she loved him. 357 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 1: And oh, he sobbed, sobbed, sobbed, sobbed, and and then 358 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,919 Speaker 1: the siblings came in, and they were a very exuberant family, 359 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 1: and so you would just hear him laughing and they 360 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: would sing. And then for like three days it was 361 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 1: just like party time. It was so sweet. The mom 362 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 1: had put an eight track tape. We had a little 363 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: tape recorder thing, and she put the eight track tape 364 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 1: in and hit the button. This voice and song was. 365 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: It gave me chills and I said to her, that 366 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: is so beautiful, and she goes, that's Lamont. He had 367 00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 1: an exquisite voice, and then he passed away like like 368 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 1: a day after that. As a superior, Sue was now 369 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: technically the direct voice of God, because she never thought 370 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,439 Speaker 1: of it that way. Now she could make her own rules, 371 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 1: she could eat what she wanted, even form relationships outside 372 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 1: the convent. Having power for the first time in years 373 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 1: led her to act in ways she didn't expect. When 374 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:35,640 Speaker 1: you are in an organization that suppresses the human spirit 375 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:39,920 Speaker 1: in the ways that it had done, you always think, 376 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 1: you know, if I was superior, I would never act 377 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: like that. I would be kind, I would listen. And 378 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: what you realized is the second you became superior, you 379 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 1: had a lot of freedom and power that was suppressed 380 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,880 Speaker 1: for many, many years. One time a nun underseas supervision 381 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: told her she was sick. She would say, I can't 382 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: do X whatever. But I remember going, yes, you can, 383 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,879 Speaker 1: You're not that sick. And I had the power to 384 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,639 Speaker 1: make her do those things. One night, while the sister 385 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,120 Speaker 1: has slept, Sue snuck out to the chapel, just sat 386 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,920 Speaker 1: alone in the quiet, and all of a sudden, there 387 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: was this moment of my God, you are being exactly 388 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 1: you're doing and being exactly the things you said you 389 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:28,920 Speaker 1: weren't going to be or do. What is wrong with you? 390 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 1: You know you're wielding power, the whole infamous absolute power 391 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:39,360 Speaker 1: corrupts absolutely that you had absolute power in that microcosmo absolutely, 392 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:44,199 Speaker 1: and then I shifted completely. Sue decided to change her 393 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 1: whole approach. She listened, not reprimand not humiliate. She'd start 394 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 1: with kindness, but she was about to learn that her 395 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:58,400 Speaker 1: absolute power wasn't really absolute. One day, so you got 396 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,159 Speaker 1: a call from Mother Teresa about a answer. A new 397 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: nun was coming to work at the hospice, and she said, 398 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:07,159 Speaker 1: I'm sending you sister so and so. She's a gift 399 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 1: from Jesus and you just need to love her. I 400 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: mean the standing joke as superior. Here's where if you 401 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: get a phone call from Mother or a regional superior 402 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,440 Speaker 1: and they say, oh, we have a gift for you. 403 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: We're going to send a sister to your house. That 404 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 1: was a big red flag because that was like, Oh, 405 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 1: we're getting somebody who's they're struggling somewhere else and they're 406 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,919 Speaker 1: moving them. So it was a standing joke. We're like, 407 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 1: you can just keep the gift. So this sister comes in. 408 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: Now we're in a wooden building with non ambliatory patients 409 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 1: on the second floor. No elevators, no nothing, like if 410 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 1: there's a fire, you have to carry them down the 411 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 1: stairs and out the door. Okay. I think it was 412 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,359 Speaker 1: like day three and everybody's in bed and we all 413 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,919 Speaker 1: sleep in a common dormitory and Sue wakes up. She 414 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: smells something, maybe smoke, so she hops off her cot 415 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:12,399 Speaker 1: I'm like throwing on my storry and I fly past 416 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 1: the chapel and out of the corner of my eye 417 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: I catch flames. She rushes into the chapel. The new 418 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:25,239 Speaker 1: sister's inside. The sister had taken all the trash and 419 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 1: put it under the altar and lit it on fire 420 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: and was just kneeling there, staring into the fire. And 421 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: I don't know why I didn't panic, but I didn't, 422 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: And so I went next to her and I was like, sister, 423 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 1: do you know that there's there's a fire under the altar. 424 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: And she turned to me and shook me right in here, 425 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 1: and she goes, do you know I am possessed? And 426 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,199 Speaker 1: I said, I don't know about that, but I know 427 00:25:55,280 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: I have to put that fire out. And next morning, 428 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: the sister tells Sue she has no memory of the fire, 429 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:07,399 Speaker 1: but then she does it again. Soon, Sue says, this 430 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 1: sister is setting fires every few days. Of course, susarec 431 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 1: she's losing sleep. She doesn't know what to do. She 432 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,920 Speaker 1: calls her regional superior, who says, just talk to her, 433 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,400 Speaker 1: but that doesn't help, so she calls mother, Teresa. Sue 434 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,440 Speaker 1: suggests sending the sister to a psychotherapist. And I said, 435 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:30,919 Speaker 1: I'm really struggling. And Mother said, just give her time, sister, 436 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,360 Speaker 1: and just keep loving her. And and when I hung up, 437 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,959 Speaker 1: I had great clarity, There's no way that I'm going 438 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 1: to be able to manage this. While all of this 439 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 1: was happening with Sue, Joan had to make a new life. 440 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,199 Speaker 1: When she left the m c S. Joane did the 441 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 1: only thing she could do. With no money and no 442 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 1: practical work experience, and really no sense of what was possible. 443 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: She went home to Lancaster, Pennsylvania. But her mistress's words 444 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 1: followed her. She says they were like tapes, these memories 445 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: of every terrible thing her mrs said, playing over and over. 446 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,200 Speaker 1: Jesus knows you're a fake and a phony. You're stupid, 447 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,400 Speaker 1: serves you right. Joanes still felt called to be a nun. 448 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 1: She went to church, but now she felt like an imposter. 449 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 1: And then people would come to me and say, you're 450 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 1: so holy. I would leave that church and go to 451 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 1: another church so that no one would know me, and 452 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,399 Speaker 1: so I could not be noticed. And that's the worst 453 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: thing that to this day, I don't want to be noticed. 454 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 1: There is another tape that played in her head, the 455 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 1: words of one of her confessors. That's a priest you 456 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 1: confess your sins to, or who serves as a spiritual guide. 457 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 1: Father Donald McGuire was a Jesuit priest. He was convicted 458 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 1: of sexually abusing boys and eventually sentenced in two thousand 459 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 1: nine to twenty five years in prison, but before that 460 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,879 Speaker 1: he was often assigned as a confessor for mc sisters, 461 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: including Sue and Joan. Years before he was sentenced, Donald 462 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,679 Speaker 1: McGuire told Joan sa thing that would haunt her, and 463 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: he said to us, if you make it to the 464 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:08,919 Speaker 1: novitiate and you leave, you'll have handicapped children, You'll get divorced, 465 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: and bad things will happen to you because God wants 466 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:19,880 Speaker 1: you here. This stuck with Joan because she had made 467 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: it to the novicia and left. Once she did, she 468 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,879 Speaker 1: felt like Father McGuire's warning started to come true. I 469 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 1: went home in January. Now, mind you, for the last 470 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 1: two years, no love, no nothing. I met this man. 471 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,440 Speaker 1: He said he loved me, went to church with me, 472 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 1: the whole nine yards. Eventually they got married. I had 473 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 1: this huge wedding. Nuns were singing in my wedding. I 474 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: mean it was huge. But Joan wasn't happy for long. 475 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 1: She says, the relationship en did horribly after three months. Okay, 476 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 1: so now here I am an x nun and a 477 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 1: man leaves me and he said to us, if you leave, 478 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 1: you'll get the worst. You'll have handicapped children and bad 479 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 1: things will happen to you. So I thought, okay, I 480 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 1: can't be a none, I can't be married. So I 481 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 1: went up to this place we have called Pequi Pinnacle. 482 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 1: She hiked through the woods up to an overlook on 483 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 1: a tall hill near home. She could see water and 484 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 1: trees stretched out below. This place was special to Joan. 485 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: She used to talk to God here. It was where 486 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 1: she felt her call to religious life. This time was different. 487 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 1: And I was going to jump right kill myself, because um, 488 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 1: God must hate me. So I went up there, I 489 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: went to jump, and a snake slithered up in front 490 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: of me, and um, I hate snakes. So I was 491 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: scared to death. So I ran back to my car 492 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: and got in my car and then went back home. Hi, bey, Carol, 493 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 1: do you want to meet Erica. Let's gonna meet Erica. 494 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 1: Look here, look, look there's Erica. Now. Joan is a 495 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 1: mother and a grandmother. Her daughter, Hannah, has a toddler 496 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 1: and they live next door. I try to live in 497 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: God's will and let God unfold the will. So right now, 498 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 1: the will for me is to be a great mom 499 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 1: and a grandmother, and I lead a company. She remarried 500 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 1: to a man she calls kind and patient named Tom. 501 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: Before we got married, I said, don't marry me because 502 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:43,720 Speaker 1: I can never love you the way you deserve to 503 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 1: be loved. Because I love God ultimately to the nth degree. 504 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 1: God is what I love the most, and that's where 505 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 1: I spend most of my time. But that didn't get 506 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 1: her Tom, and he just said, no, I you know 507 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 1: I love you. Joan made a life outside the convent. 508 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 1: She built a small chapel for prayer in her backyard. 509 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 1: She lived her faith in a different way. And then 510 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 1: one day someone showed up in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, a woman 511 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 1: in a white sarry with blue stripes. It was her sister, Sue. 512 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 1: In the years before Sue Webber returned to Pennsylvania, her 513 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 1: time as a superior had brought her a step deeper 514 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: into the organization. It also gave her a new vantage point. 515 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 1: When I became superior and I had more time to think, 516 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: that opened the door to really question a lot of things. 517 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 1: She already had a growing list of concerns about the 518 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 1: missionaries of charity, like how sisters were treated and how 519 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 1: sisters and leadership roles used their authority. So you have 520 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 1: sisters who were amazing and in my opinion, didn't even 521 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 1: wield power, and then you had sisters who wheeled it 522 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 1: to the youngth degree. You know, everybody's at the mercy 523 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 1: of whoever has power. There's something else that bothered her. 524 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 1: She thinks Mother Teresa founded this order based on what 525 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 1: worked for Mother Teresa. She got to follow her calling, 526 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 1: she founded her own order, she established the rules. The 527 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 1: Missionaries of Charity was an extension of her personality and drive. 528 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 1: But the way so you saw it, the sisters inside 529 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 1: this order couldn't follow their own calling, just obey, just 530 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 1: follow assignments, regardless of feelings. So he says, this one 531 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 1: size fits all doesn't work, especially for a group of 532 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: women from around the world. One former sister told me 533 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 1: a convent she was in had something like twenty seven 534 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 1: nationalities all living together. It sometimes lads to language and 535 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 1: cultural issues. So you tried to explain that to Mother Teresa, 536 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 1: trying to get her to understand that everybody is not 537 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 1: the same, Like everybody's coming in, all of us with 538 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 1: our baggage, and in her mind, the second you crossed 539 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 1: over the threshold to the order, all of that disappears, 540 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 1: or it should disappear. And in the utopia of life, 541 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 1: that would be lovely winded, like everybody just goes in 542 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: and then we all just love each other. Instead, SUSA 543 00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:00,120 Speaker 1: sisters struggle. They were tired and stressed and grapple the 544 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 1: language barriers, some needed psychological care, and no one seemed 545 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:10,799 Speaker 1: to fix the problems. I realized that the order was 546 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:17,799 Speaker 1: wired that you had very little time to think, so 547 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:23,359 Speaker 1: you had your morning prayer and your adoration. I can't 548 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 1: speak for anybody else, but all I ever did was 549 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 1: worked really hard not to fall asleep during that time. 550 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 1: I've heard that from a number of people, which should 551 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 1: have been the time where you can think and have 552 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 1: your thought process. If you're in a bad relationship, if 553 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 1: you're all your energy is in the bad relationship, you 554 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 1: don't have the capacity to look at it through another lens. 555 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:48,960 Speaker 1: I could no longer live what I felt I was 556 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:54,880 Speaker 1: being called to. At one point, Sue learned about a 557 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 1: letter Mother Teresa wrote. She was struggling with do I 558 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,960 Speaker 1: serve this sisters or do I serve the poor? And 559 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,839 Speaker 1: I will never forget this. She wrote a letter to 560 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,319 Speaker 1: the pope, and the Pope wrote back, and this is 561 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:13,359 Speaker 1: what he said, give necessary care to your sisters and 562 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:18,920 Speaker 1: loving care to the poor. And I was like, w 563 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:24,520 Speaker 1: T F. Seriously, that is insane, like give nesting, like 564 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,239 Speaker 1: the very people who are carrying out your work. The 565 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:32,480 Speaker 1: reality is without her sisters, the order doesn't exist women 566 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 1: who were willing to dedicate their life to the service 567 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,760 Speaker 1: of the poor. You're going to give them necessary care only, 568 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 1: and you're giving loving care to the point, yeah, I 569 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:44,919 Speaker 1: went I went off the deep end on that one, 570 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 1: because you wanted loving care for the sisters. Yes, because 571 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 1: anybody understands humanity. You can't give what you don't have. 572 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 1: So if you have an order of sisters who are 573 00:35:56,680 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 1: not being filled with love, how are they going to 574 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:07,560 Speaker 1: be loving? And you see that in houses where we've 575 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:12,319 Speaker 1: been accused, and rightly so, of mistreating people. And for me, 576 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,280 Speaker 1: it wasn't about these sisters are bad people. They were empty. 577 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 1: They were empty, and you can't live that kind of 578 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 1: a life if you're empty. Sue felt like she was 579 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,640 Speaker 1: on the verge of a breakdown, so she asked for 580 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,479 Speaker 1: a temporary leave. She went back to her parents house 581 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:37,440 Speaker 1: in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, still wearing the sorry, She kept her 582 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:41,840 Speaker 1: MC rituals. She rose early, she prayed. But something had changed. 583 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,120 Speaker 1: Maybe she wasn't called to life in the convent anymore. 584 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:50,400 Speaker 1: But someone else did feel the call. Joan, I still 585 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,400 Speaker 1: felt that I was called no matter what, and I 586 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,240 Speaker 1: don't think it ever changes. For me, it never has changed, 587 00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 1: and I fight that constantly. So it was hard for 588 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:03,360 Speaker 1: her to see Sue back in their parents house dressed 589 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,640 Speaker 1: in the blue and white sorry a superior. When I 590 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,640 Speaker 1: left the Missionaries of Charity, I kept a lot to myself. Again, 591 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:11,719 Speaker 1: I don't share a lot with people. I mean, I'm 592 00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,239 Speaker 1: surprised I'm sharing what I'm sharing with you. I think 593 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:19,400 Speaker 1: at one point I felt weak that I couldn't do 594 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:23,320 Speaker 1: it um and so I was probably a little jealous 595 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,480 Speaker 1: of her that she got to stay in and she 596 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 1: was doing it. And then also and then also I 597 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 1: was a little hurt because I guess I wanted her 598 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 1: to sway me to stay when I told her I 599 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 1: was going to leave. So for a couple of years, 600 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,920 Speaker 1: I probably blamed her that she didn't think I had 601 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,279 Speaker 1: a vocation, but I knew in my soul I did, 602 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:50,719 Speaker 1: And so I was kind of hurt by her. But 603 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,799 Speaker 1: it was me. It wasn't her. She wasn't intentionally hurting me, 604 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,719 Speaker 1: But I felt hurt by that because I felt like 605 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:01,560 Speaker 1: she didn't defend my vocation. That must have been really hard. 606 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:05,440 Speaker 1: Have you talked about this before. What is it like 607 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 1: to hear that too? I'm not surprised, and it makes 608 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:13,319 Speaker 1: sense that she would feel that way. For me. It 609 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:17,200 Speaker 1: wasn't about saying somebody had a vocation or not. For me, 610 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:19,399 Speaker 1: it was more of a protective and you're not going 611 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:24,959 Speaker 1: to be who you are if you stay here. After 612 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,319 Speaker 1: nine months in Lancaster, the reasons for Sue to leave 613 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:32,120 Speaker 1: began to outweigh her desire to stay. She stopped wearing 614 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:36,799 Speaker 1: this sharry. She wasn't going back. I was recognizing that 615 00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:40,160 Speaker 1: I was no longer true to myself, and I that 616 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:43,080 Speaker 1: I couldn't be true to myself if I stayed in there. 617 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,359 Speaker 1: Mother Teresa asked her for a meeting in Harlem, one 618 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:51,120 Speaker 1: last attempt to change Sue's mind. Joan drove her there 619 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:53,600 Speaker 1: and the two of them walked into the convent together. 620 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,719 Speaker 1: There was a woman who made sure nobody saw me, 621 00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:04,000 Speaker 1: snuck me into a parlor, and then when all the 622 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,640 Speaker 1: sisters had gone to the chapel, she snucked me from 623 00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:10,440 Speaker 1: the parlor to where mother's room was. Mother had her 624 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:15,480 Speaker 1: head down. I knelt down to get her blessing, and 625 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:17,560 Speaker 1: she blessed me, and then I sat on the chair 626 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:21,240 Speaker 1: and then she immediately was like, you need to come back. 627 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,360 Speaker 1: This is where God's calling you, Mother Mary. Once you 628 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 1: hear Mother Teresa, she had all her little axioms, She 629 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:32,040 Speaker 1: had all her little snippets that were exactly the same 630 00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:35,319 Speaker 1: every single time you went to the table. So I 631 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,480 Speaker 1: felt like I was not being heard. I wanted to 632 00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:42,600 Speaker 1: be heard. And finally I said, Mother, I don't know 633 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:44,319 Speaker 1: if I want to come back. I said, things would 634 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,600 Speaker 1: have to really change for me. She said, you need 635 00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:52,000 Speaker 1: to come back. Sister Kiara is in Russia. She converted 636 00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:56,040 Speaker 1: this many people to Catholicism, and that just made me 637 00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:58,480 Speaker 1: like rear up. And I looked her right in the 638 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:01,359 Speaker 1: eye and I said, yeah, us, and you have over 639 00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:07,600 Speaker 1: three thousand women religious dying in your community. At this point, 640 00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:11,000 Speaker 1: Sue was yelling John could hear it from the next room. 641 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:15,600 Speaker 1: And then she kind of sat back, pulled up, And 642 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,160 Speaker 1: then I really felt like I was being heard. But 643 00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:21,239 Speaker 1: by then it didn't matter. Nothing Mother Teresa could say 644 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:32,600 Speaker 1: would change Sue's mind. She left. Not long after she 645 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:35,719 Speaker 1: left the convent, she went on a spiritual retreat to 646 00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,520 Speaker 1: reflect and figure out what to do. I was doing 647 00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:43,800 Speaker 1: a three month retreat, silent retreat. I was in this tiny, 648 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:48,920 Speaker 1: little like square foot cabin in this vast forest and 649 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:54,640 Speaker 1: incredible beauty of nature and wood burning stoves. So all 650 00:40:54,680 --> 00:41:00,759 Speaker 1: the wood was stacked outside and it's winter, and I 651 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,400 Speaker 1: just took a lot of books and all written by 652 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,359 Speaker 1: priests and stuff, and I started reading this book. There 653 00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:09,600 Speaker 1: was a section that said there are I forget how 654 00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:12,279 Speaker 1: many ten, I think ten signs that you are in 655 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:14,840 Speaker 1: a cult. And I'm reading this book and I'm just like, 656 00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:16,719 Speaker 1: oh my god, this is the Missionaries of Charity, this 657 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:19,200 Speaker 1: mission and I felt like it was the first time 658 00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:23,319 Speaker 1: I was reading something that was like validating my experience. 659 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,000 Speaker 1: And all of a sudden, I get to the end 660 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:33,280 Speaker 1: of the book and this priest says, a perfect example 661 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:38,799 Speaker 1: of a non cult is the Missionaries of Charity. I 662 00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:42,200 Speaker 1: literally get up off so fun. I opened the door. 663 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 1: It's snowing like crazy. I fling the book out across 664 00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:50,840 Speaker 1: the lawn. I end up taking all the wood and 665 00:41:51,000 --> 00:42:00,080 Speaker 1: pitching it. I was I was livid, like livid. M 666 00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:03,040 Speaker 1: I was like, this is ridiculous. So I go back 667 00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:04,600 Speaker 1: out in the snow looking for the book that I 668 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,120 Speaker 1: threw out. I find it. I bring the book back 669 00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:09,200 Speaker 1: in and I sit down and proceed to write this 670 00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:13,799 Speaker 1: man a letter and basically say for you to have 671 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:17,120 Speaker 1: made a statement like that, never having lived in that 672 00:42:17,280 --> 00:43:00,040 Speaker 1: order is not only dangerous, it is untruthful. Thanks so 673 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:02,680 Speaker 1: much for listening, and stick with us because there's a 674 00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:05,480 Speaker 1: lot more in the coming weeks. This is the first 675 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:10,000 Speaker 1: time that I have ever encountered any form of sexual 676 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:15,880 Speaker 1: violation or abuse in the missionaries of charity. That doesn't 677 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:22,160 Speaker 1: mean it doesn't exist. The Turning is written by Allen 678 00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:25,360 Speaker 1: lance Lesser and Me. Our producers are Allen lance Lesser 679 00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:28,640 Speaker 1: and Emily Foreman. Our editor is Rob Rosenthal. Andrea A 680 00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:32,960 Speaker 1: Suage is our digital producer. Fact checking by Andrea Lopez Crusado. 681 00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:36,960 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Amy Gains, Sarah oh Lender, Catherine Joyce, 682 00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:41,320 Speaker 1: Beth and Macaluso, Travis Dunlap, and consulting producer Mary Johnson. 683 00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:45,040 Speaker 1: Her memoir and Unquenchable Thirst provided inspiration for this series. 684 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,839 Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Jessica Alfert and John Parratti from 685 00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:53,399 Speaker 1: Acco Punch and Katrina Norville from My Heart Radio. Our 686 00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:56,160 Speaker 1: theme music is by Matt Reid. For photos and more 687 00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:59,560 Speaker 1: details on the series, follow us on Instagram at Rococo Punch. 688 00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:02,799 Speaker 1: You can reach out via email to the turning at 689 00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:05,720 Speaker 1: Rocca punch dot com. I'm Erica Lands.