1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:03,040 Speaker 1: All Zone Media. 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:05,800 Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let 3 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:09,480 Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 4 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:12,559 Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one 5 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 6 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 7 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 8 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:22,639 Speaker 2: there's got to be nothing new here for you, but 9 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions. 10 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to it could happen here, a podcast about a 11 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: world sliding ever further into the abyss. I'm your host, 12 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: Mia Wong. As the wave of atrocities committed by Israel 13 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: and Nagaza strip rages on, and the moral authority of 14 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: Biden in his liberal cohort crumbles day by day. A 15 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: new generation of right wing media grifters have seized on 16 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:52,159 Speaker 1: Palestine as a way to boost their own reactionary brand. 17 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: But these are not the standard kind of right wing 18 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: grifter that we've become accustomed to on this show. They 19 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: aren't Chris Ruffo, they aren't of TikTok, and although they 20 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: will eventually appear on Tucker Carlson, they are cut from 21 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: that pre existing template. These are our monsters. These are 22 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: monsters birth by the left. I grew up in by 23 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: the generation of new socialist radicalized by Bernie Sanders, the 24 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: Syrianceivil War, and the election of Donald Trump. This is 25 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 1: largely going to be a set up episode to understand 26 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:29,479 Speaker 1: the background of the kinds of people who are going 27 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 1: to come later. But I wanted to start the story 28 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: with a taste of where it's going to end. Max 29 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: Bluemothal is a left wing journalist with the outlet Gray Zone. 30 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: He was for a very long time well regarded in 31 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 1: anti imperialist circles. In many ways, he is the ideological 32 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 1: predecessor to enormous portions of the modern left. In twenty 33 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: twenty one, Anthony Fauci, the former head of the National 34 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases and Biden's chief health official, 35 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 1: went on Face Nation to face allegations and calls by 36 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: Senator Ran Paul and Ted Cruz for him to step 37 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: down and quote be prosecuted over the course of COVID nineteen. 38 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. 39 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 1: After this interview happened, Face the Nation released a tweet 40 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 1: about it. Bluementhal responded with an incredibly disturbing video I'm 41 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 1: going to read the tweet. I'm not going to play 42 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: the video because this guy listening to him is a 43 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: painful experience. Bluementhal responded, quote Nobel winning inventor of the 44 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: PCR test, Carrie Mollus on Anthony quote, I am the 45 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: science Fauci quote and this is from Molas Tony Fauci 46 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:38,359 Speaker 1: does not mind going on camera in front of the 47 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:41,359 Speaker 1: people who pay his salary and lie directly into the camera. 48 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: By the way, the part where he says lie instead 49 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:46,919 Speaker 1: of lying, there is a direct quote that is him, 50 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 1: not me. So to understand how absolutely it absolutely absurd, 51 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: this is we need to talk about who Carrie Burris 52 00:02:55,880 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: actually is. So Max Bluemoenthal is correct that Carrie Mollis 53 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 1: won the nineteen ninety three Nobel Prize for the invention 54 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 1: of the PCR test, which is now one of the 55 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 1: basic building blocks of biology. Like they let undergrads and 56 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 1: college do this stuff, But he is also an enormous crank. 57 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: Berkeley's alumni magazine wrote a profile of him when he 58 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 1: died in twenty nineteen. They described him like this quote, 59 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:26,360 Speaker 1: He'd become a vociferous critic of widely accepted scientific theories 60 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:31,079 Speaker 1: ridiculing the notion that CFCs caused the ozone hole, that 61 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: humans caused climate change, and that HIV caused AIDS. Now, okay, 62 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: climate change denihilism, I think is something we all understand. 63 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: The ozone layer stuff is extremely funny. This interviews from 64 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: the nineties. So in the nineties, we were using these 65 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: things called CFC's, which is a class of chemical that 66 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: we used in like hairspray and refrigerators, and using them 67 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 1: tore a hole in the ozone layer. So the world, 68 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: for maybe the last time, actually performed a collective action 69 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: stop using them, and the whole fixed itself. So okay, Obviously, 70 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: carry mollis unbelievably and very quickly proven unbelievably wrong. But 71 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: the last part, the part where carrying Mullus claims that 72 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:16,280 Speaker 1: HIV does not cause AIDS, we need to talk about 73 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: a bit more because it is absolutely monstrous and it 74 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: is going to give molos a body count. Even Kissinger 75 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:26,160 Speaker 1: would not in respect to So, okay, we need to 76 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: talk about what HIV AIDS actually is. So I'm I'm 77 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,479 Speaker 1: just gonna go to the CDC for this one. HIV 78 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: Human and amino deficiency virus is a virus that attacks 79 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 1: the body's immune system. If HIV is not treated, it 80 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: can lead to AIDS acquired amino deficiency syndrome. There is 81 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 1: no effective cure. Once people get HIV, they have it 82 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 1: for life, but with proper medical care, HIV can be controlled. 83 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 1: People with HIV who get effective HIV treatment can live long, 84 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: healthy lives and protective partners. And this is something that 85 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 1: people fought and died for. If you have HIV, there 86 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: are simple and easy tests for it now you can 87 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: get treatment and you can live a normal life. On 88 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 1: the other hand, if HIV isn't treated, you can get 89 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:16,479 Speaker 1: acquired immuno deficiency syndrome AIDS, and that can and will 90 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:21,279 Speaker 1: kill you. It is what killed so so many, almost 91 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 1: an entire generation of queer people. It killed them for 92 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: decades and decades and decades, and it's still killing them now. 93 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 1: Carrie Mullis, the guy who max bluemitthal is tweeting a 94 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: video of to Go After. Anthony Fauci doesn't think that 95 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 1: HIV causes AIDS. He thinks that AIDS is caused by 96 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:41,280 Speaker 1: malnutrition in poverty, and he is going to spend the 97 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: rest of his life telling anyone in everyone he can 98 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: getting mainstream press coverage telling people that HIV doesn't cause AIDS. 99 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: He is the Andrew Wakefield of HIV AIDS in nihilism. 100 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 1: Lots of people believe him, including for example, the FOO 101 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:58,480 Speaker 1: fighters Dave Gruel. They believe him because he is apparently 102 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: a reputable source. The man has a Nobel prize. But unfortunately, 103 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: as we've already seen from his climate denial and his 104 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: CFC denial, he is spreading unbelievably dangerous lies, and this 105 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: specific lie that HIV doesn't cause AIDS fucking kills people. 106 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: Here's from that Berkeley article. Again, I don't like the 107 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: way they're phrasing it. It's the you know, it's Berkeley, 108 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: right like, so some stuff going to some stuff's going 109 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: to be racist. His views on AIDS don't just look bad, 110 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:32,160 Speaker 1: they may have had deadly consequences. By the late nineteen nineties, 111 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:35,719 Speaker 1: South Africa was in the midst of a catastrophic A's epidemic. 112 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 1: President Thumbo mcbecky, under the spell of AIDS denialist including Mullis, 113 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: declared that A's was caused by poverty, not HIV. Many 114 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:47,719 Speaker 1: South Africans were denied access to treatment. A two thousand 115 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:50,160 Speaker 1: and eight study published in the Journal of Acquired Immuno 116 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: Deficiency Syndromes estimated that as a result, thirty five thousand 117 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 1: babies were born with HIV and three hundred and thirty 118 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:02,280 Speaker 1: thousand South Africans died of AIDS on it. Necessarily, this 119 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 1: is monstrous. And here is Max Bluementhal, who was up 120 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: until very recently, at the very least nominally a left 121 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: wing journalist, tweeting a video of this fucking guy to 122 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: attack Anthony Fauci on behalf of a bunch of right 123 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: wing anti lockdown rules. Now, I especially want to do 124 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: this because if you want to attack Anthony Fauci, it 125 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: is very very easy to do from the left. You 126 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: can attack him for his response to the original HIV 127 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: AIDS pandemic, and you know, lots of queer people have 128 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 1: done this. Instead, Max Bluementhal is tweeting a guy is 129 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 1: tweeting a video from an unbelievable right wing crank who 130 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: was responsible for the death of three hundred and thirty 131 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: thousand people. And so the question we're going to be 132 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 1: answering for the next three episodes is how did we 133 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 1: get here and what is happening now, and to do 134 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: this we need to talk about the rise of American 135 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: Marxist Leninism. I'm going to try to present the ideology 136 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: as sympathetically as possible, because it's important to understand how 137 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: people came to believe in these things, because part of 138 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 1: the horror and tragedy here is that not all of 139 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 1: these people are the grifters and shills in right wing 140 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: fanatics that the IDEOLOGI spawned and who were now having 141 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 1: to deal with people who are on info wars agreeing 142 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: with Alex Jones. Most of them were people like us, 143 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: people who saw the horrors of this world and wanted 144 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: to make it better. A lot of the writing about 145 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: this is clinical and antiseptic, largely coming from either academic 146 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: journals or very very angry liberals. And I can't be 147 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 1: clinical about this. I can't cover this neutraally, and I 148 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 1: can't do that because some of these people were my friends. 149 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: There were people I loved and respected and cared about, 150 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 1: and they're people who have now lost, and so I 151 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: owe it to them to be fair about this. So 152 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: what is is the modern generation of Marxist Leninism. You 153 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 1: could start with the history of the Bolsheviks and Stalin's 154 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:09,080 Speaker 1: consolidation of power and the development of Marxist Leninism as 155 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 1: an ideology, and you could trace it through the twentieth century, 156 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: and you could trace, you know, the ways in which 157 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: it is and isn't the ideology that Lenin had originally 158 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 1: been developing. But that really is the wrong place to 159 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 1: start here. If you want to understand how this ideology 160 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 1: came to be and why so many people came to 161 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: follow it, the right place to start is America. It's 162 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 1: with a generation of young people who grew up in 163 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: the wake of the two thousand and eight financial collapse 164 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: and the ruthless suppression of occupy by the Obama administration. 165 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 1: It's a generation of people who grew up on the 166 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: Internet who began to learn about the lies we've been 167 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: fed our entire lives about the world and America's role 168 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 1: in it. They learned the lies we've been told about 169 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 1: the war in Iraq, about Afghanistan, about Vietnam, about Allende 170 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 1: and Pinochet, about Cuba, about the Sandinistas, about American imperialism 171 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,559 Speaker 1: in Lebanon and Haitian, Guatemala and Honduras and Iran, about 172 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: Patrice Labumba and the DRC, about Sukarno and Suharo in 173 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: the Killing Fields, about Thomas Sankara, about Shai Guavara, about 174 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 1: the Black Panthers, about a thousand wars and a thousand 175 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: crimes of the American Empire crime as we could spend 176 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: an entire episode just listing by name. They learned in 177 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 1: a tremendously short amount of time that the American Empire 178 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 1: was born of genocide. It was built by slavery, and 179 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:29,559 Speaker 1: he is sustained by replicating those genocides across the world 180 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 1: and at home. That the governments, they were taught from 181 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: birth to love and respect, slaughtered children in the streets 182 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 1: with health fire and missiles, and then had the unmitigated 183 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: gall to turn around and proclaim itself the leaders of 184 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: the free world and the upholder of the rules based 185 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:48,679 Speaker 1: international order. And so they started learning about how our 186 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 1: capitalist economy really functions. They started reading Marx, and then 187 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 1: they started reading Angles, and it led to other Marxists 188 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:58,559 Speaker 1: into the great international enemies of American imperialism from the 189 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: last century ho Chi Minh Castro to Lenin, to struggles 190 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:06,719 Speaker 1: against colonialism in Algeria, and to intellectuals like phenomen and 191 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: militants like Asada Shakur. It led them to believe, to 192 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:15,679 Speaker 1: really believe in the struggle against capitalism and racism and imperialism, 193 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:20,319 Speaker 1: and that led them to Stalin and Mao, And eventually 194 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:23,839 Speaker 1: it would lead them down a darker path, a path 195 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: where anything and everything could be justified if it meant 196 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 1: defeating the American Empire, a path that told them it 197 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 1: was their duty to back every state in the world 198 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: who could even conceivably check the advance of American power. 199 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 1: It led them to modern geopolitics, to the belief that 200 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:46,679 Speaker 1: modern China and Vietnam or socialist states still resisting American imperialism. 201 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,079 Speaker 1: It would lead them eventually to backing the very Russian 202 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 1: oligarchs that had destroyed their beloved USSR. And it would 203 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:56,080 Speaker 1: lead some of them into the very heart of darkness itself, 204 00:11:56,440 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 1: to an alliance with anyone and everyone who opposed liberal interventionism. 205 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:02,839 Speaker 1: It would lead to the Sekin alliance with the arch 206 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:06,440 Speaker 1: right wing anti communist Donald Trump. But it didn't start 207 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 1: that way. The co option of the ideology is a 208 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: process that took almost a decade and comprise a series 209 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: of debates inside the left about what capitalism, socialism, and 210 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: imperialism really are, and how the left should relate to 211 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:23,199 Speaker 1: nationalism in the state. We'll talk more about how these 212 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 1: debates led to a right wing turn at episode three. 213 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: But the core beliefs anti imperialism, objection to capitalism, a 214 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 1: rejection of liberal interventionism, and some of the darker and 215 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: more conspiratorial tendencies, like accusing any protest movement against the 216 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:41,559 Speaker 1: government they supported of being CIA assets, spread like wildfire. 217 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: There were contradictions from the beginning, of course, how do 218 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 1: you square your opposition to capitalism with your support for China, 219 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 1: a country with almost one thousand billionaires. The solution was 220 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:57,959 Speaker 1: to lie. Lies about China, in particular abound it. Many 221 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: Marxist Leninists believe, for reasons that are deeply unclear to me, 222 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: that China has public housing that automatically guarantees every citizen 223 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 1: a home. This is not true. This unclear to me 224 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 1: if it's ever been true, even through this so, I mean, 225 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 1: I guess you could argue it was sort of true 226 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: during the socialist period. It has not been true for 227 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 1: a very very long time. China has a lot of 228 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: homeless people. But you know, these sort of lies persist 229 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:25,439 Speaker 1: because they are what you need to believe in order 230 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 1: to believe that China is a socialist state and not 231 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: a capitalist one. Another common line is that China has 232 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 1: a fully socialized healthcare system. This is unbelievably not true. China, 233 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 1: in fact, used to have something like a universal medical 234 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 1: system that they operated in extreme difficulty with groups of 235 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: people called the barefoot doctors who would go to rural 236 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 1: villages that had never really received proper medical care before 237 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: and attempt to treat them. This was the thing that 238 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: China used to have, and then they tore it up 239 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: and privatized it, and now Chinese private healthcare is absolute disaster. 240 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: Calculations by the Chinese Journal Twang estimate that almost the 241 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: entire Chinese economy is based on corporations not paying their 242 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: required contributions to healthcare plans, and that if corporations actually 243 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:15,679 Speaker 1: paid into the healthcare plans of micro workers, the entire 244 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 1: economies of entire provinces would immediately go under as an 245 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: enormous majority of their corporations immediately went underwater. And so 246 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: what we're getting this sort of picture of is people 247 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: begin to believe things that need to be true in 248 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: order for their ant to square their anti imperialism, or 249 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: their version of anti imperialism, which is opposing at all 250 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: costs the United States with their anti capitalism when the 251 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: two began to conflict in terms of, you know, attempting 252 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: to support a very obviously capitalist economy, and this leads 253 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: to some very very bizarre twists in turns. One very 254 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: common thing is for socialists and socialist organizations in the US, 255 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: or at least I say socialists, I made Marxist Leninists 256 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: organizations to advocate for a fifteen or twenty dollars midiroom 257 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: wage in China while simultaneously celebrating thirty two cents an 258 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: hour as the end of poverty in China. This has 259 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 1: never actually penetrated the minds of the new Marxist Leninists. 260 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 1: With their endless parades of flags and new countries added 261 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 1: every day, from the genocidal austerity bongers in Ethiopia to 262 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 1: the hardline, murderous anti communists to rule meenmore by baton 263 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: and bullet, new Marxist Leninists were able to effectively insulate 264 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 1: themselves from reality. This left them as prey for a 265 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 1: new generation of right wing grifters. Would cynically exploit them 266 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 1: for wealth and status. They also garnered the hatred of 267 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 1: the more internationalist factions of the left, and then, as 268 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 1: their numbers expanded, the increasing ire of liberals, who, stealing 269 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 1: a term from anarchists, began to call the Marxist Leninist tankies. This, 270 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 1: I suspect, if you have heard of these people, is 271 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: probably the word you've heard used to describe them. So 272 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 1: we should talk about what this word actually means. But first, 273 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 1: unfortunately some ads, and we're back. To explain what a 274 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 1: tanky is, we have to go back to, bizarrely, the 275 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty six Hungarian Revolution. So all right, in nineteen 276 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: fifty six there was a massive uprising in Hungary. The 277 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: Hungarians effectively forced their government to break with the Soviets. 278 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 1: The Soviets respond to this by rolling a bunch of 279 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 1: tanks across the border, claiming everyone in the revolution is 280 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 1: the fascist and killing them all. And they were fairly 281 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: successfully able to convince a large number of communists that 282 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: the Hungarian revolutions really were fascists. They were aided in 283 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 1: this by the fact that the liberals also lied about 284 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 1: what the Hungarian revolution really was. And this is a 285 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: lie that they continue to spread to this day. The 286 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: liberal version of the revolution is that it was, you know, 287 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: it was a liberal revolution by people who wanted liberal 288 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: democracy against the Soviets'll tell Terrrianism, etc. Et cetera, et cetera. 289 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: And that's also not true. The reality of that uprising 290 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 1: and what most of it was was a rebellion by 291 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:15,160 Speaker 1: the Hungarian workers' councils, So workers across their factories seized 292 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 1: control of their factories, threw their bosses out, and began 293 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 1: to manage the democratically. The different workers' councils like foreign 294 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:27,639 Speaker 1: regional federations. It is very stunningly, very very similar to 295 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: the original Soviets of the nineteen seventeen Russian Revolution, which 296 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:34,679 Speaker 1: in theory the USSR is supposed to be named after. 297 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: But when they reappeared again, the the Soviets just absolutely 298 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:43,120 Speaker 1: smashed them because they weren't advocating for a Soviet aligned 299 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 1: one party state. And what this actually meant was tanks 300 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 1: rolling up to the gates of factories blasting apart the 301 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,439 Speaker 1: very workers' councils who are supposed to be the basis 302 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: of communism. This was an attempt in some sense yes, 303 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: to implement democracy, but it was an attempt to implement 304 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: democracy in the factory, and it was attempted by the 305 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 1: working class to seize control of the means of production 306 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:08,160 Speaker 1: and manage them themselves. Now, the smashing of the Hungarian 307 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:11,120 Speaker 1: Revolution led to a split in enormous numbers of communist 308 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: parties all across the world. There are people leave communist 309 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 1: parties and droves. This is a big enough deal that 310 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 1: it spawns effectively like a crisis in China, where there 311 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 1: is a series of bast strikes and people chanting like 312 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: here another Hungary, and in particular the British Communist Party 313 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: had a guy on the ground in Hungary reporting of 314 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 1: what was happening, and his reports split the party between 315 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: the people who supported the Hungarians and the people who 316 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:40,360 Speaker 1: supported the Soviets. The latter faction became known as tankies 317 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: for their support of rolling tanks across the border and 318 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 1: slaughtering in the working class. The term was revived in 319 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:49,440 Speaker 1: the twenty tens to describe the return of Marcist Leninists, 320 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: so though much of its usage was about Russia and 321 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: Syria rather than the original Hungarian uprising. Now it is 322 00:18:56,119 --> 00:19:00,679 Speaker 1: true that all of these people do actually support they 323 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:03,639 Speaker 1: do actually believe that the Soviets were crushing like the 324 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:08,440 Speaker 1: return of fascism, but that that actual belief, like the 325 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: belief in you know, that the Soviets were right to 326 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: crush the Hungarian Revolution, is effectively irrelevant now except as 327 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:19,159 Speaker 1: a sort of marker of loyalty, because you know, the 328 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: USSR is gone and the Hungarian Revolution is gone too, 329 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: and so what's left is a term that on the 330 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:33,640 Speaker 1: one hand, does correctly, you know, it does correctly describe 331 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 1: a part of their political tradition, but it has it 332 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 1: has a tendency to sort of anchor these arguments in 333 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: the past instead of the present. With the substance of 334 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:50,160 Speaker 1: disagreements with the Marxist Leninists actually are now Marxist Leninists, 335 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: they're also just yeah, they're called mls to Marxist Leninists 336 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: absolutely hate being called tankies except under, you know, the 337 00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 1: circumstances where they adopted ironically, and I'm of two minds. 338 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 1: I have called these people's tankies a lot. But the 339 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: biggest problem with calling these people tankies is that the 340 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:10,159 Speaker 1: original tankies, the people who supported the Soviets butchering the 341 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:14,640 Speaker 1: Hungarian working class were actually communists. They were Marxist Latinists 342 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,359 Speaker 1: who supported the USSR and believe that state ownership of 343 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 1: the means of production was the socialist transition to communism. 344 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:24,160 Speaker 1: These modern quote unquote Marxist Leninists don't even believe that. 345 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: Both Stalin and Kruish Chef, for all the differences, would 346 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:30,239 Speaker 1: have had these people's shop for supporting capitalists in their 347 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 1: imperialist market economies. If you tried to explain to Mao 348 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: that Deng Jhao Ping, with his people's billionaires and a 349 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 1: trillion dollars of American treasury bond singing it sitting in 350 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 1: his coffers, was doing communism, he would have branded you 351 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:44,679 Speaker 1: a capitalist, wrote and sent you to your re education 352 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 1: camp at the end of the day. Whatever else, the 353 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: original tankies, the British supporters of the USSR were communists. 354 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 1: Their modern day equivalents don't even have that to height behind. 355 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,119 Speaker 1: They have been reduced to capitalists with a hammer and 356 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:03,440 Speaker 1: sickle fetish. So who are these people really? What they've 357 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 1: become is suicide net socialists, because the suicide nets are 358 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:11,160 Speaker 1: the actual content of their politics. This is the actual 359 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: content of backing states like the people's Republic of China. 360 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 1: It is full throated support for the suicide nets to 361 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 1: fly under the roofs of the Fox confactories in Shenzhen. 362 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: The reality of their suicide net socialism is that the 363 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 1: Chinese working class would rather kill themselves than live under it. 364 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 1: And it was these suicide net socialists who sins spawned 365 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 1: their bastard children, patriotic socialism, and eventually Maga communism. So 366 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 1: how do we understand what these people are? I am 367 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 1: going to give the final word to Karl Marx, the 368 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:49,639 Speaker 1: man whose ideology in theory spawned theirs. I'm going to 369 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 1: read from one of Marx's most famous works, the eighteenth 370 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:54,399 Speaker 1: through Mayor. I'm pretty sure I've quoted it on the 371 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: show before. The tradition of all dead generations weighs like 372 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 1: a nightmare on the mina into the living. And just 373 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 1: as they seemed to be occupied with revolutionizing themselves and things, 374 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 1: creating something that did not exist before, precisely in such 375 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 1: epochs of revolutionary crisis, they anxiously conjure up the spirits 376 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:16,880 Speaker 1: of the past to their service, borrowing from them names, 377 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,440 Speaker 1: battle slogans, and costumes in order to present this new 378 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:24,120 Speaker 1: scene in world history and time, honor, disguise and borrowed language. 379 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 1: Thus Luther Martin Luther put on the mask of the 380 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,639 Speaker 1: apostle Paul. The French Revolution of seventeen eighty nine to 381 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,920 Speaker 1: nineteen fourteen draped itself alternatingly in the guise of the 382 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,920 Speaker 1: Roman Republic and the Roman Empire, and the Revolution of 383 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 1: nineteen forty eight knew nothing better to do than to 384 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 1: parody now seventeen eighty nine, now the revolutionary tradition of 385 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 1: seventeen ninety three, seventeen ninety five. This is precisely the 386 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:54,639 Speaker 1: trap that Marxist Leninis have walked into. Faced with mass 387 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 1: social upheaval, they knew nothing better than the down the 388 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 1: mask of Stalind and Mao. It was a terrible mistake. 389 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 1: Here is Marx again. The social revolution of the nineteenth 390 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 1: century cannot take its poetry from the past, but only 391 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,679 Speaker 1: from the future. It cannot begin with itself before it 392 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: has stripped away all superstition about the past. The former 393 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: revolutionaries required recollections of past world history in order to 394 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,919 Speaker 1: smother their own content. The Revolution of the nineteenth century 395 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 1: must let the dead bury their dead in order to 396 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:30,879 Speaker 1: arrive at its own content. There the phrase went beyond 397 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 1: the content. Here, the content goes beyond the phrase. But 398 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:40,640 Speaker 1: we never buried our dead. The memories of dead generations 399 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,160 Speaker 1: still weigh like a nightmare in the minds of the living. 400 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 1: And in the next episode we will walk face first 401 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 1: into that nightmare and behold the abyss within. 402 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:11,880 Speaker 2: Woo All right, guys, I did my job. That could 403 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 2: happen here a podcast that I just opened by saying, 404 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:19,679 Speaker 2: woo ha meyeah, I'm gonna throw to you. Now what 405 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:20,879 Speaker 2: are we talking about today? 406 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 1: Boy? So, yesterday we did I guess, the sort of 407 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 1: intro legwork to the kind of stuff that you need 408 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,159 Speaker 1: to know to understand the sort of new crop of 409 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 1: right wing Palestine grifters. And today we're actually gonna get 410 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: into who these people are and how their politics developed, 411 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 1: and how the sort of trajectory of this has shaped 412 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 1: a lot of the left. And to do this, unfortunately, 413 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 1: we need to introduce one of the main characters of this, 414 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 1: for better or for worse, probably for worse, Max Blumenthal. 415 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,879 Speaker 2: I just woke up. We're talking about Max Blumenthal and 416 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 2: I'm just barely starting my coffee for the morning. Son 417 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 2: of a bitch. 418 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:18,880 Speaker 1: I'm so sorry. I apologize to everyone, but unfortunately, unfortunately 419 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 1: this needs to be done. 420 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, he's the human equivalent of soap scum. 421 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:28,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, so okay, I think the place to start with 422 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,120 Speaker 1: Max Bluementhal is a thing that's pretty common among most 423 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 1: of the kind of new crop of these Palestine grifters 424 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: is that he used to be a pretty normal progressive. 425 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 1: Now for some of the people were going to be 426 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,120 Speaker 1: talking about, pretty normal progressive was a thing they were 427 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: in like twenty nineteen. For Max Blumenthal, like, he was 428 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:49,639 Speaker 1: a pretty normal progressive in like the two thousands and 429 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 1: in nine was. 430 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 3: A real journalist at some point, right, yeah, yeah, Like, 431 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 3: like he wrote this book called Republican Gomorah, Inside the 432 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:00,920 Speaker 3: Movement that Shattered the Part, which is a pretty good 433 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 3: book about the rise of the Christian Right and how 434 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:04,159 Speaker 3: they seize the Republican Party. 435 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 1: And this is very funny because the place he is 436 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 1: going to end up at the end of this story 437 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 1: is going on Tucker Carlson and being aligned with like 438 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 1: the exact forces he was talking about like a decade 439 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 1: and a half ago. So before we really started to 440 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 1: get into him, we need to talk about his family. Garrett, 441 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:25,159 Speaker 1: do you know who Sid Blumenthal is? 442 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 4: Oh? Yeah, the name sounds familiar, but it's not ringing 443 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 4: any specific bells for me. 444 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,400 Speaker 2: Ye Clinton staffer, right. 445 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he was like Clinton's hatchet man basically, like 446 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,400 Speaker 1: this is mostly originally with Bill Clinton, but like later 447 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,199 Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton too. He's like the guy who does the 448 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 1: Clinton's like political dirty work, and he was like, here's 449 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 1: a big guy in the nineties. The most impactful thing 450 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,199 Speaker 1: that he did for modern politics is that he is 451 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: the guy who invented birth rhythm is slightly too strong 452 00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:58,919 Speaker 1: of a word, but he's the guy who pushes like 453 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:03,679 Speaker 1: Obama birth rhism him like into the mainstream because like 454 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: as an attempt basically to kill Obama's campaign so that 455 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:07,640 Speaker 1: Hillary could win the nomination. 456 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 4: How well did how well did that turn out? 457 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: Well? Gave us Donald Trump, So you know, things going great, 458 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,360 Speaker 1: and you know, so so this is Max Bluementhal's dad, right, 459 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 1: like Max, And this is I think I think that's 460 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 1: kind of important about him is that he grows up 461 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 1: very sort of proximal to power. Like he goes to 462 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 1: Georgetown Day School, which is a forty thousand dollars a 463 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: year prep school that has like multiple Supreme Court justices, 464 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,679 Speaker 1: Like I've sent their kids there now. But he's so 465 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 1: he's like kind of a normal progressive journalist for a 466 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:45,160 Speaker 1: long time. But in the early twenty tens, he takes 467 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:51,119 Speaker 1: a genuine, a very principled stand on Palestine that gets 468 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: him kind of kicked out of a lot of progressive 469 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: circles because in twenty twelve thirteen, it was and it 470 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 1: still is to this day, but like it was, it 471 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 1: was very hard to take profalesime positions, and he like 472 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,440 Speaker 1: he just ends up in this sort of spiral where 473 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 1: like he loses most of his friends, his girlfriend breaks 474 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 1: up with him, like he's not getting work from the 475 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:11,440 Speaker 1: usual places he'd been getting work from because he's been 476 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,879 Speaker 1: sort of like kicked out and isolated for taking this stance. 477 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 1: And the product of this is that he goes he 478 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: takes this meeting that is very very weird. So in 479 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, Russia today has this like week long gala 480 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: thing that's for its tenth anniversary. And if you're like 481 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 1: a Mueller investigation fan, this is very famous. If you're 482 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 1: a Nova person, almost no one has ever heard of 483 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: this thing. Yeah, so this this gala thing is this 484 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 1: in twenty fifteen. It has a bunch of very very 485 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 1: important like Russian officials. Gorbachev is there, Like there's a 486 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 1: bunch of like senior like senior officials. Very famously, Mike 487 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: Flynn gets paid forty five thousand dollars to speak there. 488 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,959 Speaker 1: Jill Stein, who the Green Party can in twenty sixteen? 489 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 1: This is where. 490 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 4: Running again for the Green Party this year? 491 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 1: Technics. Yeah, I don't know if they're gonna be this year. 492 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 2: I think they got it. I think they got it. 493 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 1: On lock Now Jill Jill Jill Stein twenty four? Would 494 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 1: she beat Howie Hawkins? Is he not running again? 495 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 4: I believe, I believe it's her. That's last last night 496 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 4: I heard Jill Stein is making is making another run 497 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 4: for it? 498 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 1: Goddamn? 499 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 4: All right, yeah, yeah, she has one month ago she 500 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 4: launched her twenty twenty four presidential bid. 501 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 1: Oh boy, so yeah, okay, so so Jill Stein. This 502 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: is where if you've ever heard the conspiracy stuff, that's 503 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 1: like Jill Stein is like a Russian agent. It comes 504 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 1: from the fact that she was at this meeting and 505 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 1: then started running for president. Now, what's interesting about Max 506 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 1: Bluman thought going here is at this point he's a 507 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 1: pro Syrian revolution guy. He writes, he writes a bunch 508 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 1: of articles like criticizing Western leftists for supporting a Saudid. 509 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,719 Speaker 1: I want to read from a little bit of them, 510 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 1: because it's a really interesting look into who he was 511 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 1: before and the fact that he knows exactly what the 512 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: playbook that he's going to be using is. Besides exploiting 513 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: the Palestinian cause, the Assaud apologists have eagerly played the 514 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: al Qaeda card to stoke fears of his Islamic takeover Assyria. 515 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 1: Back in two thousand and three, Assaud accused the US 516 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: of deliberately overstating the strength of Alkaida in order to 517 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 1: justify it so called war on Terror. But now in 518 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 1: a transparent bid for sympathy from the outside world, Asad 519 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 1: insists the Syrian armed opposition is controlled almost entirely by 520 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 1: al Qaeda like jahadists who have come from abroad to 521 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 1: place the country under Islamic control, and is addressed to 522 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 1: the Syrian People's Assembly. On June third, the dictator tried 523 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 1: to hammer the theme home by using the terms terrorists 524 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 1: or terrorism a whopping forty three times. That is a 525 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 1: full ten times more than George Bush digit he speech 526 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 1: to Congress. In the aftermath of nine to eleven, enjoining 527 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 1: the Asade regimes campaign that g legitimize the Syrian opposition 528 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 1: by casting it as a bunch off irrational Jahatis. Ironically, 529 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 1: they seem to have little problem with Hesbelah's core Islamist values. 530 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,960 Speaker 1: Assaud's apologists have unwinningly underwritten the war on Terror lexicon 531 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: introduced by George Bush, Ariel Sharon and the Neo Kon 532 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 1: cabal after nine to eleven. So this is pre twenty fifteen, 533 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 1: like twenty fifteen, like pre this meeting, Max bluementhal So 534 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 1: he goes to this meeting and then after that founds 535 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 1: grey Zone and all of his positions suddenly flip. And 536 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 1: this is the thing you can actually if you want to, 537 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 1: if you go back and trace. So graizone is this 538 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 1: sort of media outlet thing that Max Blumenthal found it. 539 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 1: And it's interesting because there's a lot of like Aaron 540 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:48,960 Speaker 1: Batte too, Like if you go through the journalist in 541 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: this outlet, the moment they start working for Greyzone, all 542 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: of their positions on stuff like Syria just immediately flip. 543 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 1: There's okay. So there's a conspiracy version of this where 544 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 1: like if you read Liberal Accouncil with Grayzone. They will 545 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 1: argue that maxlely Wenthal went to this meeting, got paid 546 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 1: off by the Russian government and that grey Zone is 547 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:12,120 Speaker 1: like a Russian asset. I I don't know. I don't 548 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 1: think that's true. Well, the thing I can say was, 549 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 1: nobody knows where Grayzone gets his money from. Right, they're 550 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 1: very they're very sort of like like there's Patreon stuff. 551 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 1: But other than that, they're very sort of sketchy about it. 552 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: There's no evidence, like directly that he's been paid by 553 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,719 Speaker 1: the Russian government to do Grayzone. The thing that I 554 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 1: can say is that he has taken a bunch of 555 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 1: money from the Russian government to go on RT like 556 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 1: all the fucking time. That's the part of it that 557 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 1: I can say. I don't know. This is one of 558 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 1: these things that's it's such a sort of like confluence 559 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:42,880 Speaker 1: of like all of these people were in the same 560 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: place at the same time. It's one of these things 561 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: that generates a trilling conspiracy theories. I'm gonna say that 562 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 1: I don't think that this is like a giant Russian conspiracy. 563 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:55,720 Speaker 1: But he does flip all of his positions almost immediately 564 00:32:55,880 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 1: after going to this meeting, and the thing that he 565 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 1: starts taking is is the exact same position that he 566 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 1: was he was writing about like before this in twenty fifteen, 567 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 1: he starts talking about how like anyone who opposes a 568 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 1: SAWD is a quote head chopper, and he starts he 569 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 1: starts selling like one of these big things is selling 570 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:16,000 Speaker 1: this line that like a SAWD is the defender of 571 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: serious ethnic minorities, which is like a thing that I 572 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 1: think would be newsed to them, and you know, and 573 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 1: he's he starts a podcast called Moderate Rebels, which is 574 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 1: a joke about like, ah, like the US is funding 575 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 1: moderate rebels, but all those people are actually like ol 576 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 1: Kaida supporters, and I don't know, like I think. I 577 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 1: think it's interesting comparing his pre twenty fifteen writing to 578 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 1: his post twenty fifteen writing, because he very clearly understands 579 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 1: what he's doing, Like he he wrote an analysis of 580 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:48,960 Speaker 1: the thing that he's going to be dealing. 581 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 2: There's no plausible deniability with him. 582 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, and a big part of this whole deal is 583 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 1: like and this is one of the things that Max 584 00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 1: Lminthal figures out is that there are there are there's 585 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 1: a very large market in selling a palatable form of 586 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:08,319 Speaker 1: Islamophobia to the left. You're gonna see this in this 587 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 1: is one of the things that he doesn't shing John, 588 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 1: where there's he's he's part of this whole sort of 589 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 1: sphere of people who are like, there's nothing happening in 590 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 1: Chan John, Everything's actually great. And with both that and Syria, 591 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 1: there's exactly the same playbook, which is to go all, like, 592 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:24,719 Speaker 1: you know, all of the resistance to this government is 593 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:28,760 Speaker 1: CIA back Wahabi terrorists. You can find like some people 594 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 1: who suck and go oh hey, like these guys are 595 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,719 Speaker 1: all Jahadists, and you know, in Syria this is sort 596 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 1: of bleakly funny because if you know your War on 597 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 1: terror history, like Bashar al Assad like tortured people with 598 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:44,360 Speaker 1: the CIA and the US like held some Weiger guys 599 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 1: for the CCP in Gitmo for allegedly being part of 600 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,839 Speaker 1: a separatist group. But this is an important part of 601 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:57,759 Speaker 1: how people sort of launder these right wing dictators. And 602 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 1: this is something that there's a very old sort of 603 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:02,920 Speaker 1: tradition of this on the left that these these a 604 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,319 Speaker 1: lot of people are able to sort of raft onto 605 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 1: And I'm going to take an example of this because 606 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: I think it's important because one of the the er 607 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 1: sort of moments of all of this politics is the 608 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 1: collapse of Yugoslavia and the sort of left wing defense 609 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:26,399 Speaker 1: of Melosovic. So I'm going to read from to take 610 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 1: an example of like what this shit looks like. I'm 611 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,839 Speaker 1: going to read from an article that Jeremy Skahill wrote, 612 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,399 Speaker 1: which is, I think the worst article about Melosovik I've 613 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,200 Speaker 1: ever seen. This is this is a Huffington Post piece. 614 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:37,560 Speaker 1: This is I think the worst thing I've ever seen 615 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,759 Speaker 1: written about Molosovik in a mainstream outlet. Here is here. 616 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 1: Here is Jeremy's Gayhill quote. Little attention therefore, has been 617 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 1: paid to Melosovic's long term efforts, which predate nine to eleven, 618 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,240 Speaker 1: the nineteen ninety nine NATO bombing and his own trial 619 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 1: to expose the presence of Al Qaeda and the Balkans 620 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:59,359 Speaker 1: from Bosnia to Kosovo. With nine to eleven, Melosovic's talk 621 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:03,319 Speaker 1: of al Kaido easily dismissed as laughable, pathetic opportunism. But 622 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: those who follow Melosovic's career and importantly the events of 623 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:10,000 Speaker 1: the nineteen nineties in Yugoslavia, no, it was none of these. 624 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,640 Speaker 1: The those allegations were based on true events the US 625 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 1: does not want discussed in an international court. Following the 626 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,680 Speaker 1: defeat of the Soviets in Afghanistan in the eighties, many 627 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,759 Speaker 1: Musha Hadeen eventually turned their sights on Yugoslavia, where they 628 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:28,120 Speaker 1: went to fight alongside Bosnian Muslims against the Orthodox Serbs 629 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:32,080 Speaker 1: and Catholic Croats. Once again, the US and bin Laden 630 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 1: were on the same team. To this day, there are 631 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 1: reports of trading camps in Bosnia, which remains under occupation. 632 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,640 Speaker 1: It is also likely a trading ground for future blowback. 633 00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 1: So that's like nonsense, Like there are not there are 634 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:50,040 Speaker 1: not all Kaida training camps in Bosnia, Like what the fuck? Like, 635 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:53,840 Speaker 1: it's just it's complete nonsense, And you know, it relies 636 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,160 Speaker 1: on a lot of the other sort of like weird 637 00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:01,759 Speaker 1: things that leftists like believe and don't believe about this. 638 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:05,760 Speaker 1: There's there's a very if if you want to actually 639 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:10,560 Speaker 1: read about these sort of like transnational Islamist networks, there's 640 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 1: there's a very good book by the anthropologist DARRYL Lee 641 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,560 Speaker 1: called The Universal Enemy in Jihad and Jihada Empire and 642 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:20,640 Speaker 1: the Challenge of Solidarity. But like, okay, I want I 643 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 1: want to ask the audience a question, right, why would 644 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,319 Speaker 1: members of the muja Hadeen be in Bosnia in the 645 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 1: nineteen nineties, And I want to suggest that it might 646 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,200 Speaker 1: have something to do with the fact that Melosivic was 647 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:36,080 Speaker 1: trying to kill every Muslim in the fucking country. He 648 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 1: almost did it. He was pretty close to actually doing it, 649 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,319 Speaker 1: you know. But the sort of the sort of like 650 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:45,480 Speaker 1: left conspiracy solutions like no, no, it must have been 651 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 1: the CIA. There's no plausible reason why ex Musja Hadeen 652 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 1: guys would have gone to a country where someone was 653 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 1: trying to kill the entire Muslim population, Like what the 654 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:54,840 Speaker 1: fuck did you? 655 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 4: Like? 656 00:37:55,600 --> 00:38:00,319 Speaker 1: It's it's it's all stuff that's like this, And you know, 657 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 1: he also talks about how like Belosovic would have like 658 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:07,560 Speaker 1: testified about the CIA institution of a neoliberal government in Kosovo, 659 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:12,400 Speaker 1: and like what like Belosovic is the guy who presided 660 00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,920 Speaker 1: like he was one of the architects of of decollectivisation 661 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 1: in Yugoslavia, like he is like before before he was this, 662 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 1: before he was the butcher of Belgrade, he was the 663 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:24,640 Speaker 1: butcher of the Yugoslavian social estate. But you can, you know, 664 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 1: and so and he was he was just a hardline 665 00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:30,239 Speaker 1: right wing Serbian nationalist. But you can sell him to 666 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 1: a Western audience by using Islamophobia, by exploiting, you know, 667 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:35,960 Speaker 1: by by by doing this thing where you're like, oh 668 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,920 Speaker 1: well actually like all of these people were, uh, they 669 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:43,200 Speaker 1: were all al Kaeda. You can use this to sell 670 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:47,960 Speaker 1: the guy who destroyed Yugoslavia as like the left to 671 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:50,799 Speaker 1: savor of Yugoslavia. And you know, I think that the 672 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:52,799 Speaker 1: part about this that really said is like you know, 673 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,320 Speaker 1: there was you know, the sort of last true believers 674 00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:00,279 Speaker 1: of the old Yugoslavia working class right where these the 675 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 1: Yugoslavin anti war protesters and these guys, you know, they 676 00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:07,439 Speaker 1: they're they're they're protesting to stop the war. They see 677 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,239 Speaker 1: coming that the Serbians are about to win, leash and 678 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:16,279 Speaker 1: they just get murdered in the streets by Melosovic. You know, 679 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:18,600 Speaker 1: well because seven years later the US society that they 680 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,640 Speaker 1: didn't like him, like he's become this like hero of 681 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:23,840 Speaker 1: a bunch of these like a bunch of barxsis Leninists 682 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,880 Speaker 1: like see this guy as a hero, and this is 683 00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:29,360 Speaker 1: you know, this, this is just this is their big 684 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:33,600 Speaker 1: sort of like political trick is using the threat of 685 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:38,800 Speaker 1: like terrifying Muslim like terrorists to just legitimize right wing dictators. 686 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:44,239 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, speaking of right wing dictators. Yeah, 687 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:47,719 Speaker 2: there's this non zero chance there's an ad for someone 688 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:51,120 Speaker 2: who will be one in the future. Uh, right now, 689 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:52,920 Speaker 2: And we're back. 690 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:57,880 Speaker 1: So we're back to this stuff. And Syria and specifically 691 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,160 Speaker 1: the way people think about Syria plays a huge role 692 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:05,399 Speaker 1: in the sort of development of the left. And one 693 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 1: of the reasons that the sort of new gray zone line, 694 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:11,160 Speaker 1: which is that the entire opposition is composed of Islamists 695 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:14,080 Speaker 1: and that Asad is the only person who can stop them, 696 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:17,120 Speaker 1: is that, like, you know, part of the reason this 697 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:19,319 Speaker 1: works is that like yeah, like they're and this is 698 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:21,040 Speaker 1: this is the gap that these people always sort of 699 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:22,960 Speaker 1: come in through. Is that like a lot of the 700 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:26,720 Speaker 1: Western media was not covering Syria very well. They weren't 701 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,880 Speaker 1: covering the rise of like job Outel news Row very well, 702 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:35,680 Speaker 1: and you know, they use this gap to sort of 703 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:38,200 Speaker 1: like come through and rehabilitate a sod by going like 704 00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:40,560 Speaker 1: the media is lying to you a sad who again, 705 00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:42,399 Speaker 1: I need to mention like ten years earlier, this guy 706 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,520 Speaker 1: was torturing people for the Cia. But you know, now 707 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,840 Speaker 1: like Asad is actually Nancy imperialist, and this works, This 708 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:52,200 Speaker 1: works enormously well. This is the sort of breach through 709 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:56,200 Speaker 1: which Bluemithal enters the mainstream. And this, this discourse about 710 00:40:56,239 --> 00:41:00,359 Speaker 1: Syria like reshapes everything about the left. This is where 711 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,440 Speaker 1: this is where American Marcist Leninism like comes from right, 712 00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:05,319 Speaker 1: like a huge portion of ideas from the people who 713 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,600 Speaker 1: backed the SOD And this is it's actually really weird, 714 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,560 Speaker 1: like almost every big sort of like leftist like podcast 715 00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,160 Speaker 1: or media thing like came out of the Syrian Civil 716 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:17,360 Speaker 1: War in some way or another, Like the whole Grazo 717 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:20,120 Speaker 1: versus Bellingcat thing is a like is a thing that 718 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:24,280 Speaker 1: was originally about the Syrian Civil War Tropo trap House, 719 00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:26,120 Speaker 1: which is like I guess if people who don't know 720 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:31,520 Speaker 1: it's this massive like social democratic podcast also like sort 721 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:33,680 Speaker 1: of came out of there, like it was partially about 722 00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:35,480 Speaker 1: like came out of like Turkish politics. But those were 723 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,919 Speaker 1: very very similar circles like on Twitter at the time, 724 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:41,520 Speaker 1: and you know, and one of their big things is 725 00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:43,840 Speaker 1: like Felix Peterman's like The Truth about Syria, which is 726 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:48,480 Speaker 1: a sort of slightly softer like version of supporting ASAD 727 00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,719 Speaker 1: that also supports like the revolution in Rojeva. Like I 728 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:53,480 Speaker 1: came out of this because I was on the pro 729 00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:55,520 Speaker 1: Rojava side because like I'm an anarchist and I have 730 00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:59,120 Speaker 1: a bunch of Kurdish friends. So there's this giant fight 731 00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,440 Speaker 1: about what the Syrian Civil War is and what the 732 00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,080 Speaker 1: sides are and what it means. And this is one 733 00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:09,000 Speaker 1: of the things that comes to define what the left 734 00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:14,080 Speaker 1: is and the grey zone people sort of win. And 735 00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:16,400 Speaker 1: the result of this is that this pro acod like 736 00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:20,920 Speaker 1: nominally anti imperialist position becomes the default position of a 737 00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,080 Speaker 1: bunch of sort of like people who aren't like hardline Marxistlenis, 738 00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:26,640 Speaker 1: who are just sort of like like kind of edgy 739 00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:30,160 Speaker 1: Bernie like Birdie supporters. And this is something that like 740 00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:32,480 Speaker 1: you can see the effect of this, like to this 741 00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:33,880 Speaker 1: day if you look at left, if you look at 742 00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:36,799 Speaker 1: like leftist meme culture, like you can see people who 743 00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:40,319 Speaker 1: are otherwise mostly normal making Line of Damascus jokes about 744 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,120 Speaker 1: how like a sod is like the line of Damascus 745 00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:46,880 Speaker 1: people still make jokes about barrel bombs, which is you 746 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:50,120 Speaker 1: know this thing that ASD would do. Uh, there's the 747 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:51,920 Speaker 1: whole like the one that I see the most, it's 748 00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:54,400 Speaker 1: like still very very common, is there is this whole 749 00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:57,279 Speaker 1: meme of like Hillary Clinton says, asod must go, and 750 00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:59,239 Speaker 1: then there's like the second panel as like who must 751 00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:01,400 Speaker 1: go and Hillary Clinton gone, and people still do this 752 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:02,440 Speaker 1: like to this day. 753 00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:04,960 Speaker 2: The other really common one, there's this little girl named 754 00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:09,200 Speaker 2: Bana A Labet who was a Syrian girl who got bombed, 755 00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:13,120 Speaker 2: and there's like a video of her, you know, reacting 756 00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:16,200 Speaker 2: in the way a small child would to being bombed, 757 00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:19,360 Speaker 2: and like there's a meme that's basically taking her words 758 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:23,640 Speaker 2: and twisting it into like please America, you know, come 759 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:27,200 Speaker 2: and intervene in Syria. Like turn it basically like this 760 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,279 Speaker 2: this girl is CIA propaganda trying to like justify US 761 00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,040 Speaker 2: intervention in the war. Like that's the that's the bit 762 00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:36,120 Speaker 2: you see it posted A lot people repurposed it after 763 00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:40,600 Speaker 2: the Russian invasion of Ukraine to make fun of Ukrainians. 764 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,360 Speaker 2: It's like it's like pretty fundamentally cruel. 765 00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:45,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's that's how a lot of this stuff 766 00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:48,640 Speaker 1: worked because it was it's stuff that fits into the 767 00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:51,000 Speaker 1: social values of that part of the left at that time, 768 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:53,520 Speaker 1: which is that both the Marxist leninists and what was 769 00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:56,920 Speaker 1: called the dirtbag left around Tchapa was completely irony poisoned 770 00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:59,000 Speaker 1: and like, I get it. I was around then, like 771 00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:01,399 Speaker 1: I did my time in the art trenches, Like it's 772 00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,760 Speaker 1: really hard not to react to the worlds with ironic 773 00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:09,680 Speaker 1: detachment when it's so fucking terrible. But you know the 774 00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:14,600 Speaker 1: other side of that was like these people started like 775 00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:16,960 Speaker 1: we're doing these Assadmians because they were like because they 776 00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:21,680 Speaker 1: were edgy and contrarian, and because you know, like the 777 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:23,360 Speaker 1: like this is like the stuff with the bond. This 778 00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:25,080 Speaker 1: is one of the things with the Bonum stuff is 779 00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:30,120 Speaker 1: like deliberately demonstrating that you don't have any empathy is 780 00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:34,320 Speaker 1: something that's edgy and contrarian, and like like the performance 781 00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:39,520 Speaker 1: of that was this very sort of like powerful emotional 782 00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:44,080 Speaker 1: pull that that serves to legitimize a bunch of this stuff. 783 00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:50,400 Speaker 1: And you know, originally, and part of the everything here 784 00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:53,440 Speaker 1: too is like everyone everyone in all of these circles, 785 00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:55,680 Speaker 1: their big thing is trying to own the Libs, and 786 00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:59,200 Speaker 1: this is something that like the Libs cared about and 787 00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:01,480 Speaker 1: doing this thing of like how much you don't care 788 00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:04,759 Speaker 1: about it and how much you think it's like them 789 00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:08,120 Speaker 1: falling for propaganda that was you know, that was something 790 00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:13,480 Speaker 1: that was heavily incentivized by the structure of housings like 791 00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:18,799 Speaker 1: Twitter work and how like retweets work, and you know 792 00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:21,760 Speaker 1: this this is I mean, it's bleak in and of itself, 793 00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,960 Speaker 1: but it leads to stuff that's worse because the only 794 00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:31,719 Speaker 1: other people who support ASAD are like white supremacists, and 795 00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:34,920 Speaker 1: this leads to a bunch of very very weird cross 796 00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:38,040 Speaker 1: pollution that normally you wouldn't expect to be happening between 797 00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:41,400 Speaker 1: these circles and people who are just Nazis. One of 798 00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:45,200 Speaker 1: the most common sources about Syria for both sort of 799 00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:48,040 Speaker 1: Marxist Leninists and like social democratic Twitter users is this 800 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:50,680 Speaker 1: person named Partisan Girl who's, like I still to this day, 801 00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:54,680 Speaker 1: like a very big media figure. So she is a 802 00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:58,920 Speaker 1: Syrian Australian quote unquote Syria expert. We don't really have 803 00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:00,680 Speaker 1: time to get into all of her stuff on. 804 00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:05,360 Speaker 2: Munch, I think, yeah. 805 00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:08,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, she's been on David Duke's podcast. 806 00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,440 Speaker 2: David Duke as a former podcast, Yeah. 807 00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:12,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, the former Grand Wizard of the KKK. She was 808 00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:17,120 Speaker 1: on Richard Spencer's podcast like she is just a Nazi. 809 00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:21,160 Speaker 1: The last post that I saw from her was her 810 00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:23,440 Speaker 1: responding to another guy who's just just a straight up 811 00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:25,799 Speaker 1: Partland anti Semite who posted this beam that was like 812 00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:28,160 Speaker 1: maybe this is why all conservatives support Israel and has 813 00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:31,840 Speaker 1: a bunch of faces of conservatives with like us stars 814 00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:35,879 Speaker 1: of David on them, like including Max Blumenthal and partisan girls. 815 00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:37,719 Speaker 1: Response to this is not too object to the fact 816 00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:40,319 Speaker 1: that it's unbelievably anti Semitic, but to be like, no, no, no, 817 00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:43,720 Speaker 1: Max Blumenthal is actually an anti Zionist, so you shouldn't 818 00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:45,359 Speaker 1: include him with all of the rest of the people 819 00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:47,880 Speaker 1: who you've included on here because they're Jewish, even though 820 00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:49,560 Speaker 1: some of them aren't. He's just accusing random people of 821 00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:52,160 Speaker 1: being Jewish who aren't. But that's the thing. Like she's 822 00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:55,840 Speaker 1: straight up in anti semi just actually a fascist. I like, 823 00:46:56,800 --> 00:46:59,720 Speaker 1: I literally, like we could sit here for ten minutes 824 00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:02,040 Speaker 1: list the names of all of the fascist podcasts she's 825 00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:05,839 Speaker 1: been on. And this is one of these things that 826 00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:08,560 Speaker 1: people knew, Like people knew that she was a fascist. 827 00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:10,920 Speaker 1: And I had arguments with people where I would be like, hey, 828 00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:13,759 Speaker 1: this person is a Nazi, like she's been on David 829 00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:16,960 Speaker 1: Duke's podcast, and people would be like well, yeah, she's 830 00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:22,160 Speaker 1: a fascist, but I like her Syria analysis and this 831 00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:25,680 Speaker 1: is you know, one of the things that happens in 832 00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:28,880 Speaker 1: this is this is I'm gonna kind of defer to 833 00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:31,160 Speaker 1: you on this, Robert, because this is something I know 834 00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:33,600 Speaker 1: a lot less about. But one of the things that 835 00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:36,440 Speaker 1: the grays On people become really heavily involved about is 836 00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:42,040 Speaker 1: the doing a bunch of weird denihalism stuff around chemical 837 00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:43,200 Speaker 1: weapons attacks and Duma. 838 00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:46,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's it. That's a lot of 839 00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:53,000 Speaker 2: the nexus of the kind of asshole Left takes on 840 00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:57,000 Speaker 2: Syria revolve around is because if if Basha al Assade 841 00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:01,640 Speaker 2: was dumping chemical weapons on civil populations and mass which 842 00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:06,239 Speaker 2: we know he was, then there's absolutely no way you 843 00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:08,919 Speaker 2: can justify or defend him. It doesn't matter how many 844 00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:12,120 Speaker 2: of his enemies were quote unquote Islamists. He was pumping 845 00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:16,880 Speaker 2: chemical weapons into civilian neighborhoods. So the answer has to 846 00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:20,160 Speaker 2: be that that never happened, right, that that was the 847 00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:24,400 Speaker 2: CIA faking it or the CIA deploying chemical weapons and 848 00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:27,640 Speaker 2: it got blamed on a sod. A lot of it 849 00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:30,640 Speaker 2: comes down to there's this group. These guys are civil 850 00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:34,080 Speaker 2: defense people. This is there are civil defense units in 851 00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:37,360 Speaker 2: any city being bombed made up of civilians in the area. 852 00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:39,239 Speaker 2: When I was in Mosul, I was embedded with a 853 00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:41,120 Speaker 2: lot of the Iraqi version of these guys. They go 854 00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:43,520 Speaker 2: in and they pull people out and bodies out of 855 00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:47,759 Speaker 2: wreckage after bombings, right, they're usually locals. They provide some 856 00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,480 Speaker 2: emergency medical care to the extent that that's possible. There's 857 00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:55,320 Speaker 2: people doing this right now. In Gaza and in Syria, 858 00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:58,120 Speaker 2: it was the White Helmets, And you know, the White 859 00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:01,319 Speaker 2: Helmets were in large part formed by a dude named 860 00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:03,920 Speaker 2: James Messia I believe it's the way his name is pronounced. 861 00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:07,360 Speaker 2: He died under mysterious circumstances in Turkey not all that 862 00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:12,279 Speaker 2: long ago. But a big part of this chunk of 863 00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:15,160 Speaker 2: the left's line on Syria is that because these guys 864 00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:17,400 Speaker 2: are the first responders and they're getting in after these 865 00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:20,800 Speaker 2: chemical attacks and providing a lot of the initial evidence 866 00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:23,960 Speaker 2: in the wake of them, it's that these guys, the 867 00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:26,879 Speaker 2: White Helmets, are a CIA front and they're the ones 868 00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:29,400 Speaker 2: who are kind of planting all of the evidence of 869 00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:30,200 Speaker 2: these attacks. 870 00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:34,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this stuff gets really really out of control 871 00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:37,360 Speaker 1: very quickly. I mean, this is one of the you 872 00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:39,360 Speaker 1: suddenly see all of these people doing the stuff that 873 00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:42,080 Speaker 1: the Alex Jones supporters are doing about Sandy Hook were 874 00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:45,239 Speaker 1: like they're like taking pictures of like dead bodies and going, oh, 875 00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:49,280 Speaker 1: this is like a mannequin or like these are crisis actors, 876 00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:52,560 Speaker 1: and it's it's insane because it's like this is all 877 00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:55,919 Speaker 1: the stuff that like the Israelis are doing now, where 878 00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:58,200 Speaker 1: like they're taking pictures of a dead baby and going 879 00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:01,799 Speaker 1: like this is a doll. But so many people were 880 00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:06,080 Speaker 1: doing this with like with the shit in Syria, and 881 00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:08,919 Speaker 1: it really struck me as like I was kind of 882 00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:13,279 Speaker 1: observing it from the outside because I don't know, like 883 00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:15,720 Speaker 1: the period this was happening as the period where Occupy 884 00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:18,319 Speaker 1: Ice was starting, so I was not super involved in 885 00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:22,160 Speaker 1: this stuff, but you could just sort of see like 886 00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:25,920 Speaker 1: the kind of the level of conspiratism just like skyrocketing 887 00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:28,960 Speaker 1: to the point where like all of the stuff that's 888 00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:33,360 Speaker 1: like the modern like conspiracy canon is just getting embedded 889 00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:33,759 Speaker 1: in there. 890 00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:38,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's where you see a lot of the stuff 891 00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:41,600 Speaker 2: that has been the norm on the right for twenty 892 00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:46,680 Speaker 2: years start to take hold in the left default reality 893 00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:52,759 Speaker 2: kind of fragmenting conspiratorial angles on verifiable things that are 894 00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:56,520 Speaker 2: happening right where you have what's obviously occurring based on 895 00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:03,359 Speaker 2: the evidence and the completely errant reality fragment that that 896 00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:07,120 Speaker 2: is how you have to perceive events in order to 897 00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:10,759 Speaker 2: stay ideologically consistent. That's when a lot of that start 898 00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:14,200 Speaker 2: starts to infect the left in a way that is 899 00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:17,920 Speaker 2: now you know, pretty widely prevalent. 900 00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:21,799 Speaker 1: Yeah. And one of the things that, you know, one 901 00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:23,160 Speaker 1: of the things that he's able to do with this 902 00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:26,120 Speaker 1: that becomes one of the staples of a lot of 903 00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:29,440 Speaker 1: the left is this this line about color revolutions, where 904 00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:31,719 Speaker 1: every single time a protest starts in a country that 905 00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:35,080 Speaker 1: he doesn't like, or like the US doesn't like, like 906 00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:37,239 Speaker 1: everyone on Twitter would suddenly be like, Oh, it's a 907 00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:39,640 Speaker 1: it's a color revolution, it's a CIA op. All the 908 00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:41,640 Speaker 1: protesters are being paid by the CIA. And I could 909 00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:45,239 Speaker 1: pick like a thousand examples of this from everywhere from 910 00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:47,200 Speaker 1: like Lebanon to Hong Kong. Like every time a mass 911 00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:49,360 Speaker 1: protest would start, these people would be like, it's a 912 00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:52,799 Speaker 1: it's a color revolution. I'm gonna I'm gonna pick one 913 00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:55,160 Speaker 1: that I think, I genuinely think is the most egregious 914 00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:57,680 Speaker 1: piece of slander they've ever fucking printed or at least 915 00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:01,640 Speaker 1: like like slander of a leftist group, which is so 916 00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:05,399 Speaker 1: Ben Norton wrote a piece that was about Ecuador because 917 00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:06,760 Speaker 1: there been there have been a bunch of like Ecuador 918 00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:11,760 Speaker 1: has periodic mass protests, they also had elections. And Ben Norton, 919 00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:15,440 Speaker 1: who's another gray Zone guy who eventually like we wouldn't 920 00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:17,200 Speaker 1: even have time to cover this, but he's gonna break 921 00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:18,919 Speaker 1: with the gray Zone people when they take their hard 922 00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:21,759 Speaker 1: right pivot because they start doing like anti vax shit 923 00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:22,319 Speaker 1: that's too much. 924 00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:25,120 Speaker 2: Even fame, which has been at least a little bit 925 00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:26,399 Speaker 2: of fun to watch. 926 00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:29,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, watching them all fighting each other has been 927 00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:33,520 Speaker 1: all gone some one of the few pieces of satisfaction 928 00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:36,239 Speaker 1: we've gotten out of this. But Norton, so he on 929 00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:39,239 Speaker 1: the one of the people he's targeting is the Confederation 930 00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:42,440 Speaker 1: of Indigenous Nationalities of Ecuador, and so we've talked about 931 00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:46,840 Speaker 1: them on this show before. They are one of the 932 00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:51,719 Speaker 1: most radical indigenous organizations on the planet. Like they you know, 933 00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:55,720 Speaker 1: they they have been literally in the case of Ben Norton, 934 00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:58,520 Speaker 1: they have been overthrowing near liberal government since before Ben 935 00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:02,080 Speaker 1: Norton was born. Like their big thing is doing is 936 00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:04,080 Speaker 1: is they do these days where like they call an 937 00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:06,640 Speaker 1: uprising and it uprising happens, hundreds of thousands of people 938 00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:08,080 Speaker 1: go into the streets and try to bring down the 939 00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:10,920 Speaker 1: government and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. But 940 00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:13,560 Speaker 1: you know this is this is one of their big things. 941 00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:16,560 Speaker 1: And Gray Zone like like Norton calls these people uh 942 00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:20,439 Speaker 1: anarchists inspired ultra leftists backed by the US. 943 00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:23,759 Speaker 4: Which is just you know, you're in for a good 944 00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:26,760 Speaker 4: political analysis when someone uses the term ultra leftists. 945 00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:30,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, I love it as an insults like what, oh no, 946 00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:32,720 Speaker 1: I've been ultra leftists and my politics are too good 947 00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:35,560 Speaker 1: you my takes are too based like what this is 948 00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:39,480 Speaker 1: supposed to be an insult like baffling stuff. Yeah, but 949 00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:41,839 Speaker 1: like and like, in the span of two years, they 950 00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:46,200 Speaker 1: went from like praising they went from praising the Confederation 951 00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:48,480 Speaker 1: if the Just Nationalities of Ecuador to calling them a 952 00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:52,200 Speaker 1: cia OP like again within two years. And and a 953 00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:54,239 Speaker 1: lot of a lot of this stuff is based on 954 00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:59,000 Speaker 1: the work of this guy named William Engdah. I don't 955 00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:00,279 Speaker 1: know how a pounce this Leason. I think I think 956 00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:03,960 Speaker 1: it's William Ngdah. So he's he's a Laruchite We've talked 957 00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:07,120 Speaker 1: about the Laruchites on this podcast before. They're famous for 958 00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:09,720 Speaker 1: like beating up leftists on college campuses in the seventies. 959 00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:12,840 Speaker 1: They're also like the most feted up motherfuckers in the 960 00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:16,320 Speaker 1: entire world. Like they are. They are snitching on leftist 961 00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:19,080 Speaker 1: groups to like federal agencies you've never heard of before, 962 00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:22,080 Speaker 1: like they claim to have worked with the CIA, the FBI, 963 00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:26,080 Speaker 1: Defents Intelligence Agency, directly cooperated with Reagan's National Security Council, 964 00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:30,000 Speaker 1: like they have. They are like the biggest snitches in 965 00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:35,359 Speaker 1: the entire world. And you know, Bluementhal's like copying their 966 00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:37,879 Speaker 1: stuff right, Like he's this, this is where a lot 967 00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:40,560 Speaker 1: of his stuff about what color revolutions are comes from. 968 00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:44,520 Speaker 1: And eng Daw is, I'm gonna I'm gonna turn to 969 00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:47,920 Speaker 1: some research by Emmy bevinse Us, an anti fascist researcher. 970 00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:51,840 Speaker 1: So eng Daw thinks that BLM was a color revolution 971 00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:57,440 Speaker 1: because he is just a a really really hard line 972 00:54:58,000 --> 00:54:59,960 Speaker 1: like right worker. This is actually like a pretty common 973 00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:01,920 Speaker 1: thing in these circles of people who think that b 974 00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:05,160 Speaker 1: Alema's color revolution, people who think that like occupies a 975 00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:08,359 Speaker 1: color revolution, and that's sort of like the far right 976 00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:13,920 Speaker 1: of these of these sort of circles, and uh, I 977 00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:17,879 Speaker 1: guess speaking of the far right of these circles. Uh, 978 00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:20,399 Speaker 1: do you know what is the by far the right 979 00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:30,560 Speaker 1: choice for you to. 980 00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:29,480 Speaker 4: To use your consuming power of the of the purchasing dollar. 981 00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:31,680 Speaker 4: That's right, these these ads. 982 00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:32,200 Speaker 1: Great job. 983 00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:34,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, that was That was wonderful and. 984 00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:36,280 Speaker 1: We are unfortunately back. 985 00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:39,600 Speaker 4: Well my wallet is later and I've never felt happier. 986 00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:47,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, So okay, so we The reason we're covering this 987 00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:49,839 Speaker 1: in the first place is the sort of right wing 988 00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:55,759 Speaker 1: pivot that this circle does. But before we talk about that, 989 00:55:56,160 --> 00:55:58,279 Speaker 1: we need to talk about one more thing that is 990 00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:01,880 Speaker 1: incredibly bleak, which which is the time he accused a 991 00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:04,600 Speaker 1: sexual assault victim of being a co intel pro op. 992 00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:10,719 Speaker 1: So this is a story I don't think most people know. 993 00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:14,640 Speaker 1: I only know about it because I was there in 994 00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:18,360 Speaker 1: the DSA at the time this is happening. In twenty seventeen, 995 00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:21,799 Speaker 1: the DSA has its first has his first elections after 996 00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:27,279 Speaker 1: the giant surgeon membership from both like Trump winning and 997 00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:31,120 Speaker 1: also Bernie, and they have his first elections to its 998 00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:33,200 Speaker 1: governing body. And one of the people who's elected is 999 00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:36,279 Speaker 1: this guy named Arles Stevens. Arl Stevens is. He's a 1000 00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:38,640 Speaker 1: very popular leftist leftist at the time he does this 1001 00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:42,120 Speaker 1: whole podcast circuit. He's very charismatic. He gets the third 1002 00:56:42,160 --> 00:56:45,000 Speaker 1: most votes of anyone elected to the National Political Committee. 1003 00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:48,680 Speaker 1: But it turns out he is also an abuser. A 1004 00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:52,239 Speaker 1: woman publishes an anonymous letter about Stevens sexually assaulting her. 1005 00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:56,799 Speaker 1: It is fucking brutal. Ben Norton, who's one of his 1006 00:56:56,840 --> 00:56:59,600 Speaker 1: coworkers that we've talked about before, makes a giant threat 1007 00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:05,080 Speaker 1: accused the victim of being co intel pro Max Blumenthal 1008 00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:07,600 Speaker 1: quote tweets it and says quote can't help but be 1009 00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:11,719 Speaker 1: reminded of cointelprobe while reading this thread, and even people 1010 00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:14,640 Speaker 1: who are normally Max Plumenthal supporters were like, what the 1011 00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:20,320 Speaker 1: fuck are you doing? And like the full story of 1012 00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:24,720 Speaker 1: Norton and Max Blumenthal's involvement, and this is actually worse 1013 00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:28,120 Speaker 1: than I can talk about on air. So after the 1014 00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:30,720 Speaker 1: first thread where he where Ben Norton calls it a 1015 00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:33,880 Speaker 1: coen Tel for up, he deletes that one because it's 1016 00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:36,600 Speaker 1: just not obviously not sure if people are yelling at him, 1017 00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:39,240 Speaker 1: So he makes a second thread that that threat is 1018 00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:42,760 Speaker 1: still up to this fucking day. You can find the 1019 00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:47,680 Speaker 1: thread of Ben Norton talking about how a DSA faction 1020 00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:51,600 Speaker 1: called Momentum had like manufactured this sexual assault thing to 1021 00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:54,919 Speaker 1: like destroy its opposition. And I want to make something 1022 00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:58,000 Speaker 1: very clear, because I was there when, but when, like 1023 00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:00,520 Speaker 1: during the in this fight inside the DSA, which Momentum 1024 00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:02,760 Speaker 1: and everyone else in the fucking org And I was 1025 00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:03,880 Speaker 1: on the anti Momentum side. 1026 00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:04,040 Speaker 4: Right. 1027 00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:06,680 Speaker 1: Momentum was basically the right wing of the DSA, not 1028 00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:08,440 Speaker 1: exactly the right wing, like there's there were some other 1029 00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:09,840 Speaker 1: people who were further right than them, but they were 1030 00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:11,560 Speaker 1: they were like the center right of the DSA. They 1031 00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:13,600 Speaker 1: were electoralists. The only thing they ever wanted to do 1032 00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:17,200 Speaker 1: was canvassing, like I was on and Arl Stevens was 1033 00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:19,840 Speaker 1: on the other side, like opposing them, and I was 1034 00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:22,960 Speaker 1: on like politically, I was in the in like on 1035 00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:25,280 Speaker 1: the same side as Arl Stevens here right, Like I 1036 00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:27,320 Speaker 1: fucking hate the Momentum people. I think they destroyed the 1037 00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:30,360 Speaker 1: DSA one one day I will do a whole thing 1038 00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:34,200 Speaker 1: about them. Like these these people, like the Domentum people, 1039 00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:37,200 Speaker 1: literally purged my friends from the York right. And Arl 1040 00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:39,320 Speaker 1: Stevens is one of their enemies. And that is not 1041 00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:42,080 Speaker 1: what this shit was fucking about like Arl Stevens is 1042 00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:46,840 Speaker 1: just a rapist. But you know, Max Blumenthal and Ben 1043 00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:50,360 Speaker 1: Norton came in and were like, oh shit, this Arl 1044 00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:52,680 Speaker 1: Stevens guy is like an anti imperialist, so we're going 1045 00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:55,360 Speaker 1: to accuse the survivor of being a co intel pro 1046 00:58:55,480 --> 00:59:01,720 Speaker 1: op and it's fucking it's so fucking bl Max has 1047 00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:04,760 Speaker 1: deleted his tweet, but you can find it if you. 1048 00:59:04,760 --> 00:59:07,000 Speaker 1: You know, I have screenshots of it, and I have 1049 00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:09,200 Speaker 1: wayback machine things, right because I was there when this 1050 00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:12,480 Speaker 1: was happening, and none of these people ever suffered any 1051 00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:15,200 Speaker 1: professional repercussions for this. They were just fucking allowed to 1052 00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:17,480 Speaker 1: do this shit and nothing ever happened to them. I 1053 00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:20,400 Speaker 1: don't know. It makes me just incredibly deeply angry. 1054 00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:24,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I mean it's it is like there's that 1055 00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:27,800 Speaker 2: piece that goes around regularly about how like misogynists make 1056 00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:32,400 Speaker 2: the best informants, and it remains a pretty durable fact 1057 00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:37,160 Speaker 2: about organizing. Like if you run into people who are 1058 00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:43,280 Speaker 2: immediately attacking the victim of sexual assault as some sort 1059 00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:46,560 Speaker 2: of an informant because the person who committed it is 1060 00:59:46,720 --> 00:59:50,560 Speaker 2: on the quote unquote right ideological side, that might tell 1061 00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:53,560 Speaker 2: you something about the people who are doing that. 1062 00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:57,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, and this is this is this, 1063 00:59:57,800 --> 00:59:59,280 Speaker 1: I mean, this is the thing that like, like to 1064 00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:02,520 Speaker 1: this day there are like really shitty left wing groups 1065 01:00:02,520 --> 01:00:05,360 Speaker 1: who still do this stuff. You know. Okay, so we're 1066 01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:09,480 Speaker 1: gonna move on from that to some very okay. So 1067 01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:11,680 Speaker 1: this is you know, all of the stuff that Max 1068 01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:14,560 Speaker 1: Blumenthal had been doing until that point, that was all 1069 01:00:14,840 --> 01:00:17,280 Speaker 1: inside of the bounds of what was considered acceptable on 1070 01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:22,080 Speaker 1: the left. And that sucks, right, like that's not good. 1071 01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:27,840 Speaker 1: But by about twenty twenty one, he is And I 1072 01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:30,280 Speaker 1: found the exact I'm pretty sure I found the exact 1073 01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:34,600 Speaker 1: bunth with this happened where in twenty twenty one, like 1074 01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:39,080 Speaker 1: Bluementhal just loses it like it is it'specifically August twenty 1075 01:00:39,120 --> 01:00:44,720 Speaker 1: twenty one, he very specifically starts like tacking right really fast. 1076 01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:47,240 Speaker 1: And what he starts doing is he starts he starts 1077 01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:50,880 Speaker 1: doing anti lockdown stuff. And so he starts ranting about 1078 01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:54,080 Speaker 1: how like Australian lawmakers or opposing fians for sharing information 1079 01:00:54,080 --> 01:00:56,640 Speaker 1: about anti lockdown protests and like fans for finans for 1080 01:00:56,680 --> 01:01:00,960 Speaker 1: attending rallies, and he just gets more and more into 1081 01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:04,920 Speaker 1: hardcore anti lockdown stuff and then into stuff that's effectively 1082 01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:09,240 Speaker 1: just straight up anti vax stuff. One of the things 1083 01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:12,680 Speaker 1: that he ends up doing is he writes an article 1084 01:01:12,720 --> 01:01:15,600 Speaker 1: about like if people back remember in COVID, there was 1085 01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:17,720 Speaker 1: the whole thing about flattening the curve and trying to 1086 01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:19,360 Speaker 1: get less people to die, and there was this whole 1087 01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:22,720 Speaker 1: debate over whether you should just like not have lockdowns 1088 01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:24,320 Speaker 1: to let everyone get COVID and that would give you 1089 01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:27,600 Speaker 1: like quote unquote herd immunity and everyone would be safe. 1090 01:01:28,360 --> 01:01:30,800 Speaker 1: And that's like like Sweden tried that and it fucking 1091 01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:33,720 Speaker 1: killed almost other people. So it was a terrible idea. 1092 01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:36,520 Speaker 1: But like the whole sort of Gray Zone crew like 1093 01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:39,320 Speaker 1: starts well except for Ben Norton, who leaves starts like 1094 01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:43,640 Speaker 1: rallying around this stuff. And it's really weird because like 1095 01:01:43,640 --> 01:01:45,920 Speaker 1: like in twenty twenty, when China was doing the lockdowns, 1096 01:01:45,920 --> 01:01:51,520 Speaker 1: Ben Norton was really really pro lockdowns, but as as 1097 01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:53,920 Speaker 1: twenty twenty one goes on, he starts pivoting into this 1098 01:01:53,960 --> 01:01:58,320 Speaker 1: anti lockdown stuff. And so I first saw the stuff 1099 01:01:58,360 --> 01:02:00,840 Speaker 1: from this journalist named Walter Bragman back when he goes 1100 01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:05,080 Speaker 1: on Twitter, is he starts like he he writes an 1101 01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:07,840 Speaker 1: article that has a bunch of claims from this thing 1102 01:02:07,880 --> 01:02:10,200 Speaker 1: called the Great Barringing Declaration. Do you if you remember that? 1103 01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:12,480 Speaker 2: Uh no, not really. 1104 01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:15,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, So so this this was this giant anti lockdown 1105 01:02:15,880 --> 01:02:18,040 Speaker 1: like declaration that a bunch of right wingers were pushing 1106 01:02:18,040 --> 01:02:21,120 Speaker 1: around that was it's this giant anti lockdown's creed that's 1107 01:02:21,160 --> 01:02:23,280 Speaker 1: basically saying, like, the way to stop COVID is you 1108 01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:26,120 Speaker 1: have to like open all the all the businesses again 1109 01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:29,200 Speaker 1: forced when to go back to work, and then people 1110 01:02:29,240 --> 01:02:32,080 Speaker 1: will get like infected with COVID and that will get 1111 01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:36,080 Speaker 1: the immunity to COVID, which is a terrible idea because 1112 01:02:36,080 --> 01:02:38,000 Speaker 1: if you get infected with COVID, there's, you know, the 1113 01:02:38,080 --> 01:02:40,120 Speaker 1: chance that you die, right. 1114 01:02:40,200 --> 01:02:42,400 Speaker 2: It's yeah, yeah. 1115 01:02:42,440 --> 01:02:45,080 Speaker 1: And but the interesting thing about the Great Barrying Declorations, 1116 01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:48,040 Speaker 1: so it's created by the Economic the American Institute for 1117 01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:51,880 Speaker 1: Economic Research. So we should ask who these people are. 1118 01:02:52,160 --> 01:02:54,960 Speaker 1: So they are a right wing libertarian think tank, which 1119 01:02:54,960 --> 01:02:59,040 Speaker 1: Bloominenthal should hate, right he's supposed to be a leftist, 1120 01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:02,120 Speaker 1: he should hate these people. They received sixty eight thousand 1121 01:03:02,120 --> 01:03:06,000 Speaker 1: dollars from the Koch Brothers to do an economics conference, 1122 01:03:06,040 --> 01:03:08,160 Speaker 1: a thing that they are very mad about anytime. So 1123 01:03:08,240 --> 01:03:10,240 Speaker 1: everytime someone tries to bring it up and to talk 1124 01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:12,360 Speaker 1: about how they're Coke funded, they're like, well, we only 1125 01:03:12,360 --> 01:03:14,920 Speaker 1: took sixty eight thousand dollars one time to do one 1126 01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:19,080 Speaker 1: economics conference. You can't call us Coke funded. But then, 1127 01:03:19,120 --> 01:03:21,760 Speaker 1: like all their website, they admit that they like quote 1128 01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:27,600 Speaker 1: for the record, aier received sixty eight thousand dollars in 1129 01:03:27,640 --> 01:03:29,960 Speaker 1: Coke funding over the last ten years, and that someone 1130 01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:32,360 Speaker 1: was used entirely the offset the conference of a single 1131 01:03:33,160 --> 01:03:35,640 Speaker 1: economics conference in twenty seventeen with no links to the 1132 01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:38,160 Speaker 1: Great Barrington decoration. But like you know, obviously, so the 1133 01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:40,320 Speaker 1: reason the Coke's fun this thing is because these guys 1134 01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:43,680 Speaker 1: have the same economics like politics as they do. And 1135 01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:46,600 Speaker 1: you know, as someone who has taken zero dollars from 1136 01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:49,240 Speaker 1: the Koch brothers, I could safely say that it's bullshit 1137 01:03:49,280 --> 01:03:50,720 Speaker 1: to say that we only took money for the Coke 1138 01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:55,920 Speaker 1: Brothers once. So what happens basically is the American Institute 1139 01:03:55,920 --> 01:03:59,800 Speaker 1: for Economical Research has a like conference for a bunch 1140 01:03:59,840 --> 01:04:04,080 Speaker 1: of weirdo hacks who are also technically scientists to put 1141 01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:07,320 Speaker 1: out this report saying the lockdowns that happened immediately like 1142 01:04:07,400 --> 01:04:10,160 Speaker 1: after like the disease like COVID really started spreading in 1143 01:04:10,160 --> 01:04:12,560 Speaker 1: the US. They said that that was a mistake, and 1144 01:04:12,560 --> 01:04:15,640 Speaker 1: they're advocating ending lockdowns, reopening businesses, and this was an 1145 01:04:15,680 --> 01:04:18,200 Speaker 1: overtly pro business campaign to get a bunch of people killed, 1146 01:04:19,240 --> 01:04:22,600 Speaker 1: Like that's what these people were trying to do. But MATC. 1147 01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:26,280 Speaker 1: Blumenthal suddenly is like pushing this stuff, like in pieces 1148 01:04:26,280 --> 01:04:30,560 Speaker 1: that he's writing for grey Zone. It's very deeply weird. 1149 01:04:30,640 --> 01:04:33,560 Speaker 1: And this stuff just and as as like twenty twenty 1150 01:04:33,560 --> 01:04:35,880 Speaker 1: one goes on, this stuff gets like worse and worse 1151 01:04:35,920 --> 01:04:39,560 Speaker 1: and worse. By twenty twenty one, the bluementhal is writing 1152 01:04:39,680 --> 01:04:45,439 Speaker 1: articles about an impending attempt to implement social credits alongside 1153 01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:48,920 Speaker 1: Jeffrey Lofredo. So, okay, we need to take this in 1154 01:04:48,960 --> 01:04:50,880 Speaker 1: two parts. We'll get to the social credit stuff at 1155 01:04:50,880 --> 01:04:52,600 Speaker 1: a second. First we need to talk about who Jeffrey 1156 01:04:52,880 --> 01:04:57,440 Speaker 1: Lofredo is, because this guy, so, this guy used to 1157 01:04:57,520 --> 01:05:01,880 Speaker 1: work at Rebel News, which is this like I I mean, 1158 01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:03,400 Speaker 1: like Garrison, I know, you know this is you know, 1159 01:05:03,440 --> 01:05:04,560 Speaker 1: you two know what Rebel News is. 1160 01:05:04,600 --> 01:05:08,959 Speaker 4: It's a Canadian Yeah basically yeah, yeah, Canadian art Yeah, 1161 01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:11,480 Speaker 4: it's like a bright bart info wars type thing. They 1162 01:05:11,480 --> 01:05:13,960 Speaker 4: have like podcasts and online sight. Yeah, they're like a 1163 01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:17,520 Speaker 4: Canadian far right news source. Essentially, they also engage in 1164 01:05:17,520 --> 01:05:18,960 Speaker 4: a lot of like activism. 1165 01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:22,080 Speaker 2: It's one of the few relatively few Canadian far right 1166 01:05:22,120 --> 01:05:24,800 Speaker 2: websites that also regularly goes viral in the US. 1167 01:05:25,280 --> 01:05:25,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. 1168 01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:28,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, like I think it's also quite popular in Australia 1169 01:05:28,520 --> 01:05:30,640 Speaker 4: or they have a in Australia. 1170 01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:33,480 Speaker 2: They played a significant role in if you remember the 1171 01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:38,400 Speaker 2: basically Caravan that drive. We're going to get to that. Yeah, yeah, 1172 01:05:39,240 --> 01:05:40,000 Speaker 2: we're geting to that. 1173 01:05:40,320 --> 01:05:44,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. So so Bluementhal is writing like an article with 1174 01:05:44,560 --> 01:05:47,240 Speaker 1: Jeremy Lafrido, who is a guy who like wrote like 1175 01:05:47,280 --> 01:05:49,440 Speaker 1: a million articles for Rebel News. In fact, as best 1176 01:05:49,480 --> 01:05:52,200 Speaker 1: I can tell, she was still working for Rebel News 1177 01:05:52,440 --> 01:05:55,840 Speaker 1: when Bluementhal starts like directly linking to Rebel News articles 1178 01:05:56,640 --> 01:05:59,720 Speaker 1: about this stuff. Now it turns out she was actually 1179 01:05:59,760 --> 01:06:02,600 Speaker 1: fine from Rebel Dues after a bunch of tweets surfaced, 1180 01:06:02,600 --> 01:06:06,360 Speaker 1: which like, okay, the kinds of how hard it is 1181 01:06:06,440 --> 01:06:10,120 Speaker 1: to get fired from Rebel News. I tracked down these tweets. 1182 01:06:11,200 --> 01:06:13,160 Speaker 1: It is I'm not even gonna read any of them. 1183 01:06:13,160 --> 01:06:16,680 Speaker 1: There are there are there are seven different tweets where 1184 01:06:16,680 --> 01:06:18,520 Speaker 1: he talks about how how he wants to rate people. 1185 01:06:18,520 --> 01:06:21,080 Speaker 1: There's one where he's confascinating that's just about him being 1186 01:06:21,080 --> 01:06:25,240 Speaker 1: a pedophile. There's a bunch of him saying the N word. 1187 01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:29,920 Speaker 1: There's a bunch of like incredibly racist, like Chinese, anti 1188 01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:32,680 Speaker 1: Chinese stuff, which is very funny because Max Blumenthal presents 1189 01:06:32,720 --> 01:06:35,640 Speaker 1: himself as like the big pro China guy, and here 1190 01:06:35,680 --> 01:06:39,000 Speaker 1: he is like writing articles with this deranged anti Chinese 1191 01:06:39,120 --> 01:06:43,120 Speaker 1: racist and again like this this got him fired like 1192 01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:47,280 Speaker 1: from Rebel News, and the Maxi blue Waw article with 1193 01:06:47,400 --> 01:06:52,680 Speaker 1: him is still up now, so that that's insane enough, right, 1194 01:06:52,720 --> 01:06:54,960 Speaker 1: But the I wanted to talk the reason that was 1195 01:06:54,960 --> 01:06:56,680 Speaker 1: a rabbit hole that I fell down while I was 1196 01:06:56,720 --> 01:06:58,560 Speaker 1: looking at this article. The reason I want to talk 1197 01:06:58,600 --> 01:07:00,280 Speaker 1: about this article in the first place is because he's 1198 01:07:00,320 --> 01:07:06,160 Speaker 1: writing about social credit. Now. For people who don't recognize 1199 01:07:06,200 --> 01:07:10,120 Speaker 1: the social credit stuff. Here's the title of this article. 1200 01:07:10,800 --> 01:07:13,800 Speaker 1: Quote the title is the subtitle The Titans of global 1201 01:07:13,800 --> 01:07:17,360 Speaker 1: capitalism are exploiting the COVID nineteen crisis to institute social 1202 01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:22,640 Speaker 1: credit style digital idea sisms across the West, So what 1203 01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:25,400 Speaker 1: is this social credit thing? This is like a this 1204 01:07:25,480 --> 01:07:28,040 Speaker 1: is a very big right wing conspiracy theory thing, like 1205 01:07:28,080 --> 01:07:30,960 Speaker 1: Alex Jones is a huge pusher of this. And basically 1206 01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:34,280 Speaker 1: what they're saying is that they're going to import this 1207 01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:37,480 Speaker 1: system from China that they say exists called social credit, 1208 01:07:37,480 --> 01:07:39,240 Speaker 1: where like if you say something bad about the government, 1209 01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:41,640 Speaker 1: you won't be able to like use your credit card 1210 01:07:41,680 --> 01:07:47,280 Speaker 1: to buy food. And this is not how things work 1211 01:07:47,360 --> 01:07:51,960 Speaker 1: in China. But it's very interesting because you know, these 1212 01:07:52,000 --> 01:07:54,200 Speaker 1: right wingers are absolutely convinced that social credit is coming 1213 01:07:54,200 --> 01:07:55,720 Speaker 1: to the US, Like this never happened, It was never 1214 01:07:55,760 --> 01:07:58,200 Speaker 1: going to happen. But what's interesting about it is that 1215 01:07:58,240 --> 01:08:02,120 Speaker 1: Gray Zone is specifically writing about this, which is insane 1216 01:08:02,160 --> 01:08:04,080 Speaker 1: because again, this is this whole thing is an antich 1217 01:08:04,200 --> 01:08:08,040 Speaker 1: is an anti China conspiracy theory, and like all of 1218 01:08:08,040 --> 01:08:10,280 Speaker 1: the sort of Marcist Leninism's like whole one of their 1219 01:08:10,280 --> 01:08:13,000 Speaker 1: whole pitches was that they are the like they they 1220 01:08:13,040 --> 01:08:16,519 Speaker 1: support China against American imperialism, and then like within about 1221 01:08:16,520 --> 01:08:18,679 Speaker 1: a year, like in like a one year span, they've 1222 01:08:18,680 --> 01:08:21,759 Speaker 1: just pivoted to publishing like full on right wing social 1223 01:08:21,800 --> 01:08:25,880 Speaker 1: credit stuff. And you know, by twenty twenty two, it's 1224 01:08:25,880 --> 01:08:27,800 Speaker 1: gone even further. This is this is this is where 1225 01:08:27,800 --> 01:08:31,080 Speaker 1: we get at the trucker's convoy. So Garrison covered this 1226 01:08:31,160 --> 01:08:35,840 Speaker 1: extensively on the show. Yes, Yeah, do you want to 1227 01:08:35,840 --> 01:08:37,920 Speaker 1: do like the really short version of what that was? 1228 01:08:39,280 --> 01:08:39,599 Speaker 5: Uh. 1229 01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:42,800 Speaker 4: This of a few kind of quanon influencers, most of 1230 01:08:42,840 --> 01:08:46,360 Speaker 4: them based in Alberta, and then a few other kind 1231 01:08:46,400 --> 01:08:49,920 Speaker 4: of conservative influencers tied to and some of whom were 1232 01:08:49,920 --> 01:08:51,800 Speaker 4: tied to Rebel News kind of who were based more 1233 01:08:51,880 --> 01:08:54,960 Speaker 4: throughout Canada, organized this event where a whole bunch of 1234 01:08:55,240 --> 01:08:58,800 Speaker 4: truckers but mostly just regular people would drive to the 1235 01:08:58,840 --> 01:09:03,439 Speaker 4: capitol and park outside until Justin Trudeau would meet their 1236 01:09:03,479 --> 01:09:07,960 Speaker 4: demands or something like that. They were out there for 1237 01:09:07,960 --> 01:09:11,280 Speaker 4: for for a few weeks. It really started getting shut 1238 01:09:11,320 --> 01:09:14,639 Speaker 4: down by Canadian law enforcement when they started to block 1239 01:09:16,479 --> 01:09:20,479 Speaker 4: one of one of the big trade border crossings between 1240 01:09:20,479 --> 01:09:22,639 Speaker 4: the US and Canada. At that point, it became enough 1241 01:09:22,640 --> 01:09:24,559 Speaker 4: of a problem that the government was like, Okay, we're 1242 01:09:24,600 --> 01:09:28,160 Speaker 4: just gonna like make you guys leave, and that was that. 1243 01:09:29,120 --> 01:09:32,040 Speaker 4: It caused kind of chaos in Ottawa for a few days. 1244 01:09:32,360 --> 01:09:33,840 Speaker 4: It was compared a little bit to like it's like 1245 01:09:33,960 --> 01:09:37,200 Speaker 4: Canada's January sixth, not really. I mean it had a 1246 01:09:37,320 --> 01:09:40,919 Speaker 4: very large mobilization of people, which was unique for Canada. 1247 01:09:41,360 --> 01:09:43,120 Speaker 4: And we've started to see some of like the the 1248 01:09:43,160 --> 01:09:46,479 Speaker 4: tactics and stylings of this of this trucker convoy get 1249 01:09:46,520 --> 01:09:49,120 Speaker 4: adopted both in Canada and the States. We've we've had, 1250 01:09:49,160 --> 01:09:51,519 Speaker 4: you know, versions of this tried to get started in 1251 01:09:51,560 --> 01:09:54,400 Speaker 4: the States. Never they never really turned cross. There's been 1252 01:09:54,439 --> 01:09:57,360 Speaker 4: there's been people have tried to do organize it again 1253 01:09:57,439 --> 01:10:01,160 Speaker 4: in Canada. Hasn't really taken off the same way. But but yeah, 1254 01:10:01,160 --> 01:10:03,639 Speaker 4: that is kind of the gist. I did a few 1255 01:10:03,680 --> 01:10:06,840 Speaker 4: episodes as this was ongoing, and then I did a 1256 01:10:06,920 --> 01:10:10,680 Speaker 4: larger kind of piece about the whole thing that was 1257 01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:13,040 Speaker 4: that was more scripted towards towards the end of it. 1258 01:10:13,400 --> 01:10:15,400 Speaker 4: You can find those, I think in like if you 1259 01:10:15,479 --> 01:10:18,639 Speaker 4: go back to like February of twenty twenty two, you'll 1260 01:10:18,680 --> 01:10:21,680 Speaker 4: you'll find some some of those pieces. 1261 01:10:23,040 --> 01:10:24,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think I think the other thing that's 1262 01:10:24,400 --> 01:10:26,559 Speaker 1: important to amcise about this is these guys are right wingers. 1263 01:10:26,560 --> 01:10:29,839 Speaker 1: Like I I have pictures of these guys waving Gustaci flags. 1264 01:10:30,760 --> 01:10:32,599 Speaker 1: What if you saw your like the guys you did 1265 01:10:32,560 --> 01:10:34,040 Speaker 1: in the Holocaust in Croatia, Like. 1266 01:10:34,240 --> 01:10:36,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, there, there there was a mix of like conservatives 1267 01:10:36,960 --> 01:10:40,400 Speaker 4: to like actual fascists with like not flags there like that. 1268 01:10:39,600 --> 01:10:39,640 Speaker 6: That. 1269 01:10:40,760 --> 01:10:43,120 Speaker 4: It was. It was pretty there was a pretty wide 1270 01:10:43,160 --> 01:10:47,160 Speaker 4: ideological spectrum that was present. Now, some conservatives weren't happy 1271 01:10:47,200 --> 01:10:49,639 Speaker 4: that they're not that yeah there and try and try 1272 01:10:49,640 --> 01:10:52,680 Speaker 4: to get them to leave, you know. Others are more ambivalent. 1273 01:10:53,800 --> 01:10:56,840 Speaker 4: But yes, there was there was a large variety of 1274 01:10:56,840 --> 01:11:00,919 Speaker 4: of ideological re representation at the trucker convoy. 1275 01:11:01,680 --> 01:11:05,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. So here's Max Blumenthal's response to it. The lockdown 1276 01:11:05,320 --> 01:11:08,479 Speaker 1: Left spent the last week's about academic theory to undercut 1277 01:11:08,479 --> 01:11:11,760 Speaker 1: support for a trucker strike. Looks on with silent satisfaction. 1278 01:11:11,880 --> 01:11:15,080 Speaker 1: Is the imperial Trudeau regime imposes the Emergency Act to 1279 01:11:15,120 --> 01:11:19,960 Speaker 1: freeze bank accounts. They wanted this, So he's just fully 1280 01:11:20,200 --> 01:11:22,439 Speaker 1: like fully spends his whole time fully on board with 1281 01:11:22,439 --> 01:11:24,400 Speaker 1: a truckers thing. He's trying to convince people as a 1282 01:11:24,400 --> 01:11:27,800 Speaker 1: trucker strike, which is it's not it's like objectively it's not, 1283 01:11:27,960 --> 01:11:30,639 Speaker 1: it's it's almost all these people are like anti union 1284 01:11:30,640 --> 01:11:33,320 Speaker 1: who are participating. Yeah, and they're also they're also like 1285 01:11:33,360 --> 01:11:35,920 Speaker 1: the actual people who are truckers are the people who 1286 01:11:35,960 --> 01:11:38,160 Speaker 1: own trucking companies. They're not like they're not the people 1287 01:11:38,160 --> 01:11:41,400 Speaker 1: who are leasing trucks out. They are like the owners 1288 01:11:41,479 --> 01:11:45,280 Speaker 1: of these trucks. So he's really doing this sort of 1289 01:11:45,400 --> 01:11:49,120 Speaker 1: like like he's really doing this this sort of like 1290 01:11:49,760 --> 01:11:53,640 Speaker 1: pivot right, like she was suporting himself. By twenty twenty three, 1291 01:11:53,680 --> 01:11:58,320 Speaker 1: he's just posting straight up anti VAC stuff, like here's 1292 01:11:58,360 --> 01:12:01,639 Speaker 1: here's the thing that he wrote about. Uh, Peter Holtz, 1293 01:12:01,680 --> 01:12:03,280 Speaker 1: who was this guy. He was like this guy who 1294 01:12:03,320 --> 01:12:06,000 Speaker 1: was I don't know, he's like a science guy. He 1295 01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:07,920 Speaker 1: was like he was a really big target of the 1296 01:12:08,000 --> 01:12:11,200 Speaker 1: right for a while because he wouldn't he kept for 1297 01:12:11,479 --> 01:12:14,120 Speaker 1: like there's there's this whole thing where Joe Rogan was 1298 01:12:14,160 --> 01:12:16,960 Speaker 1: trying to debate him about whether vaccines worked, and it 1299 01:12:17,000 --> 01:12:23,479 Speaker 1: was it was this whole weird thing meeting of the minds. Yeah, yeah, 1300 01:12:23,520 --> 01:12:26,160 Speaker 1: it's ffol with all his like Bill Gates made hundreds 1301 01:12:26,160 --> 01:12:29,000 Speaker 1: of millions of dollars off his investment in biotech thanks 1302 01:12:29,000 --> 01:12:31,519 Speaker 1: to government subsidies and one of the greatest fear campaigns 1303 01:12:31,560 --> 01:12:35,719 Speaker 1: in history. He called mRNA a miracle, VACS a miracle. 1304 01:12:35,840 --> 01:12:39,479 Speaker 1: Now he admits the vaccines were semi worthless, big pharma junk. 1305 01:12:41,680 --> 01:12:45,720 Speaker 1: And then, but after contributing so much social damage with 1306 01:12:45,760 --> 01:12:49,040 Speaker 1: his unrelenting sanatory in demand for hard lockdowns and the 1307 01:12:49,080 --> 01:12:52,759 Speaker 1: mass mandating of what amounted to experimental pharma junk, including 1308 01:12:52,800 --> 01:12:56,760 Speaker 1: to small children, Hoates seems desperate to avoid account of building. 1309 01:12:56,840 --> 01:12:59,840 Speaker 1: So this is just straight up anti vax shit, right, 1310 01:13:00,280 --> 01:13:04,120 Speaker 1: Like this is like where we are like now. It's 1311 01:13:04,160 --> 01:13:06,280 Speaker 1: like he spent like a whole bunch of like the 1312 01:13:06,320 --> 01:13:08,720 Speaker 1: last two years just tweeting anti vax stuff and this 1313 01:13:08,760 --> 01:13:12,479 Speaker 1: got fused with like the lab leak stuff really quickly. 1314 01:13:13,160 --> 01:13:14,679 Speaker 1: And this is the thing I think is really interesting 1315 01:13:14,720 --> 01:13:20,759 Speaker 1: because it's another demonstration that like he knows what he's doing. 1316 01:13:21,000 --> 01:13:23,880 Speaker 1: So back in twenty twenty one, back like right after 1317 01:13:23,920 --> 01:13:30,599 Speaker 1: the Atlanta the Atlanta Spas shootings happened, he like maxlely 1318 01:13:30,600 --> 01:13:33,360 Speaker 1: menthol'sractionto was like, oh yeah, here's like, well, here's this 1319 01:13:34,280 --> 01:13:36,680 Speaker 1: in light of recent racist attacks. Here's a reminder of 1320 01:13:36,760 --> 01:13:40,639 Speaker 1: Josh Rogan's Trump disinfo dump the Washington Post blaming China 1321 01:13:40,680 --> 01:13:44,200 Speaker 1: for cooking up COVID nineteen. In the Lab, Rogan cited 1322 01:13:44,240 --> 01:13:47,880 Speaker 1: a US funded dissident as a fake scientist, legitimated propaganda. 1323 01:13:48,040 --> 01:13:51,000 Speaker 1: Now this is actually the stuff with the LAB leak 1324 01:13:51,120 --> 01:13:54,320 Speaker 1: is actually true, which is sort of wild. I mean, 1325 01:13:54,360 --> 01:13:57,120 Speaker 1: it's not quite like the lab leak stuff I think 1326 01:13:57,200 --> 01:14:02,000 Speaker 1: has directly contributed to people getting attacked the Atlanta's shooting. 1327 01:14:02,040 --> 01:14:03,880 Speaker 1: I don't know. I did a bunch. I did two 1328 01:14:03,880 --> 01:14:07,519 Speaker 1: episodes about it at the like a bit later. Yeah, 1329 01:14:07,600 --> 01:14:09,320 Speaker 1: if you want to hear me talk about the full 1330 01:14:09,880 --> 01:14:12,759 Speaker 1: explanation of that for a very long time. So that's 1331 01:14:12,800 --> 01:14:14,640 Speaker 1: what he's saying. In twenty twenty one, right, is he 1332 01:14:14,680 --> 01:14:19,240 Speaker 1: has correctly identified that the lab leak stuff is I 1333 01:14:19,320 --> 01:14:23,639 Speaker 1: like theoconn like Trump like anti China stuff. 1334 01:14:24,600 --> 01:14:25,040 Speaker 2: Uh. 1335 01:14:25,080 --> 01:14:29,040 Speaker 1: One year later, he has Jeffrey Sachs on the show 1336 01:14:29,080 --> 01:14:31,240 Speaker 1: to talk about how the US is covering up how 1337 01:14:31,240 --> 01:14:34,080 Speaker 1: the Pentagon in the National Institute of Health funded biological 1338 01:14:34,160 --> 01:14:38,720 Speaker 1: research that created COVID nineteen a lab in Wuhan. In 1339 01:14:39,080 --> 01:14:42,240 Speaker 1: one year, he has gone from calling the lab leak 1340 01:14:42,960 --> 01:14:46,800 Speaker 1: like a neocon quote a quote Trump dis info dump 1341 01:14:46,840 --> 01:14:49,280 Speaker 1: that was created by a neocon to having Jeffrey Sachs 1342 01:14:49,360 --> 01:14:51,040 Speaker 1: on his show to talk about how the lab leak 1343 01:14:51,120 --> 01:14:54,479 Speaker 1: is real and like, like this is bad enough, just 1344 01:14:54,479 --> 01:14:56,200 Speaker 1: as an ideological shift. Right, But we need to talk 1345 01:14:56,200 --> 01:14:57,920 Speaker 1: about do you guys know who Jeffrey Sachs is? 1346 01:15:01,280 --> 01:15:02,839 Speaker 2: No, not really, oh boy. 1347 01:15:02,680 --> 01:15:08,800 Speaker 1: Okay, So Sas is a Columbia University economists. He is 1348 01:15:08,840 --> 01:15:11,880 Speaker 1: also the guy who did shock therapy both in Russia 1349 01:15:11,920 --> 01:15:14,360 Speaker 1: and in Poland. Like, this is the guy who privatized 1350 01:15:14,360 --> 01:15:16,479 Speaker 1: the Russian economy and handed it over to a combination 1351 01:15:16,560 --> 01:15:19,120 Speaker 1: of like American investors, Russian mobsters, and the guys who 1352 01:15:19,160 --> 01:15:23,479 Speaker 1: would become Russia's oligarchy. Like, he is the guy who, like, 1353 01:15:23,520 --> 01:15:26,519 Speaker 1: if you are one of these people, he should be 1354 01:15:26,760 --> 01:15:30,360 Speaker 1: enemy number one, right he is. He is the guy 1355 01:15:30,600 --> 01:15:32,800 Speaker 1: who like destroyed if like, if you believe this, he's 1356 01:15:32,800 --> 01:15:36,519 Speaker 1: the guy who destroyed Russian communism, right he is. He 1357 01:15:36,640 --> 01:15:38,160 Speaker 1: is responsible. And this is this is one of the 1358 01:15:38,160 --> 01:15:39,960 Speaker 1: things that people will talk about a lot, is how 1359 01:15:40,080 --> 01:15:42,519 Speaker 1: like all of the shock therapy stuff like caused the 1360 01:15:42,600 --> 01:15:45,639 Speaker 1: largest drop in life expectancy between World War Two and COVID, right, 1361 01:15:46,880 --> 01:15:48,639 Speaker 1: and like, like Sax is not a bit Like Sax 1362 01:15:48,720 --> 01:15:50,840 Speaker 1: was literally in the room. He was in the room 1363 01:15:50,880 --> 01:15:54,080 Speaker 1: in the Kremlin when the USSR was dissolved. This is like, 1364 01:15:54,160 --> 01:15:56,799 Speaker 1: this is one of the greatest anti communist in human history. 1365 01:15:57,240 --> 01:15:59,120 Speaker 1: And here is Max Bloem with all a man who 1366 01:15:59,120 --> 01:16:02,240 Speaker 1: is supposed to like his entire thing is about like 1367 01:16:02,240 --> 01:16:06,320 Speaker 1: opposing the imperialist you over through communism, like sitting down, 1368 01:16:06,520 --> 01:16:09,360 Speaker 1: having like a very like a very sort of like 1369 01:16:09,439 --> 01:16:13,519 Speaker 1: having like a very paling around interview about that. That 1370 01:16:13,840 --> 01:16:16,840 Speaker 1: is sax pushing a conspiracy theory, the lady conspiracy theory 1371 01:16:16,840 --> 01:16:19,360 Speaker 1: that he was literally calling this info one year ago. 1372 01:16:20,479 --> 01:16:24,360 Speaker 1: And I don't know, I thought about this for a 1373 01:16:24,439 --> 01:16:28,559 Speaker 1: long time trying to figure out what was happening here, 1374 01:16:29,479 --> 01:16:31,960 Speaker 1: and the conclusion that I came to is that this 1375 01:16:32,040 --> 01:16:34,160 Speaker 1: is the soul of a man who believes in nothing. 1376 01:16:35,040 --> 01:16:37,519 Speaker 1: And you know, you can you can ask the question 1377 01:16:37,720 --> 01:16:39,920 Speaker 1: why do this? And the short answer people tend to 1378 01:16:39,920 --> 01:16:43,680 Speaker 1: give is just is money. And that's like true, but 1379 01:16:43,760 --> 01:16:45,960 Speaker 1: it doesn't go anywhere near far enough because I think 1380 01:16:46,000 --> 01:16:48,840 Speaker 1: the real, the real answer why these people did these 1381 01:16:48,920 --> 01:16:53,160 Speaker 1: right wing pivots is much much worse the actual reason 1382 01:16:53,200 --> 01:16:56,160 Speaker 1: people in left media suddenly start taking right wing turns. 1383 01:16:56,640 --> 01:16:58,800 Speaker 1: And this is something we've seen from like the young 1384 01:16:58,920 --> 01:17:02,679 Speaker 1: Turks like taking this like anti trans anti homeless pivots. 1385 01:17:03,000 --> 01:17:05,080 Speaker 1: There have been several other outlets that have done a 1386 01:17:05,160 --> 01:17:08,400 Speaker 1: right wing turn. And this is a structural problem in 1387 01:17:08,479 --> 01:17:10,639 Speaker 1: left media, which is that if you're in left media, 1388 01:17:11,800 --> 01:17:14,320 Speaker 1: you have a massive and you're trying to expand, you 1389 01:17:14,320 --> 01:17:17,040 Speaker 1: have a massive problem. And the problem is that the 1390 01:17:17,120 --> 01:17:19,439 Speaker 1: left in the US just isn't that big. Right Like, 1391 01:17:19,520 --> 01:17:21,760 Speaker 1: there are more leftists now than there've been for a 1392 01:17:21,840 --> 01:17:25,240 Speaker 1: very very long time, but there's only so many leftists 1393 01:17:25,280 --> 01:17:27,280 Speaker 1: and you can't pull from them all because leftists all 1394 01:17:27,320 --> 01:17:30,240 Speaker 1: hate each other. So even if you try to corner 1395 01:17:30,479 --> 01:17:32,439 Speaker 1: like the market of one faction of the left, another 1396 01:17:32,479 --> 01:17:34,240 Speaker 1: faction to the leftist is going to hate you because 1397 01:17:34,560 --> 01:17:36,639 Speaker 1: this is just how this is just how infighting works. 1398 01:17:37,479 --> 01:17:40,000 Speaker 1: And so if you're producing something that's designed for the 1399 01:17:40,120 --> 01:17:43,320 Speaker 1: left and only the left, there is built in a 1400 01:17:43,760 --> 01:17:47,920 Speaker 1: hard cap on how big your audience can get. And 1401 01:17:47,960 --> 01:17:49,800 Speaker 1: if you're successful, you can hit that limit. But if 1402 01:17:49,800 --> 01:17:52,240 Speaker 1: you want to grow more after that, you have to 1403 01:17:52,320 --> 01:17:56,839 Speaker 1: expand your ideological base, like the ideological base of your audience. 1404 01:17:57,960 --> 01:18:00,000 Speaker 1: But the problem is there's only two directions you can 1405 01:18:00,120 --> 01:18:02,760 Speaker 1: go right. You can either try to get liberals to 1406 01:18:02,760 --> 01:18:05,640 Speaker 1: listen to your show, or you could try to get conservatives. 1407 01:18:06,400 --> 01:18:08,240 Speaker 1: But you know, for people like Max wely monthal or 1408 01:18:08,240 --> 01:18:10,639 Speaker 1: like Jimmy Dre for example, it's another person who did 1409 01:18:10,680 --> 01:18:13,519 Speaker 1: this big like anti vax pivot around the same time 1410 01:18:13,600 --> 01:18:15,679 Speaker 1: maxle Wenthal was doing it. They have a whole thing 1411 01:18:15,800 --> 01:18:18,240 Speaker 1: where they they're they're talking about how ivromactin is actually 1412 01:18:18,240 --> 01:18:19,479 Speaker 1: a good COVID treatment. Together. 1413 01:18:21,320 --> 01:18:23,719 Speaker 4: Yeah, he used to be like a like a left 1414 01:18:23,720 --> 01:18:24,720 Speaker 4: wing YouTuber or. 1415 01:18:25,200 --> 01:18:27,840 Speaker 1: Like yeah he was a young guy from the Young 1416 01:18:27,880 --> 01:18:29,760 Speaker 1: Turks and he went off to his own thing. Is 1417 01:18:29,760 --> 01:18:34,320 Speaker 1: now like just completely only does anti vax shit. But 1418 01:18:34,560 --> 01:18:36,439 Speaker 1: the promise if you're if you're a Jimmy dor Like, 1419 01:18:36,479 --> 01:18:40,080 Speaker 1: you're you're gray zone. Right. Recruiting liberals is really really 1420 01:18:40,080 --> 01:18:42,479 Speaker 1: hard because your entire brand is based on how much 1421 01:18:42,479 --> 01:18:45,360 Speaker 1: you hate liberals. And this means that the people who 1422 01:18:45,439 --> 01:18:50,360 Speaker 1: naturally agree with them are conservatives. And the other important 1423 01:18:50,400 --> 01:18:54,080 Speaker 1: thing here is that leftists don't have that much money right, 1424 01:18:54,479 --> 01:18:57,280 Speaker 1: like they're there's not there's like us. There's like there 1425 01:18:57,280 --> 01:19:00,200 Speaker 1: there are there are leftists who are like college students 1426 01:19:00,200 --> 01:19:02,479 Speaker 1: who have rich families who have some money. There's like 1427 01:19:02,560 --> 01:19:04,439 Speaker 1: a small number of like leftist business, but they like 1428 01:19:04,439 --> 01:19:07,559 Speaker 1: they don't have on average, leftists don't have that much 1429 01:19:07,560 --> 01:19:11,759 Speaker 1: money on the other hand, conservatives have an enormous amount 1430 01:19:11,760 --> 01:19:14,920 Speaker 1: of money and they are very very easily pandered to. 1431 01:19:15,880 --> 01:19:18,840 Speaker 1: If you just like pump out like bottom barrel anti 1432 01:19:18,920 --> 01:19:23,160 Speaker 1: vax shit, like, they will flock to you. And you know, 1433 01:19:23,360 --> 01:19:25,640 Speaker 1: whenever you need to get leftists sort of back on 1434 01:19:25,680 --> 01:19:27,559 Speaker 1: your side, right, you can just start tweeting with a 1435 01:19:27,560 --> 01:19:30,120 Speaker 1: Palestine and everyone will forget everything else you've ever done, 1436 01:19:30,280 --> 01:19:34,280 Speaker 1: because any like, any time anytime someone posts posts like 1437 01:19:34,320 --> 01:19:38,280 Speaker 1: a pro palesiine thing, people just click on it. Right, Yeah, 1438 01:19:38,720 --> 01:19:40,760 Speaker 1: this has been. This has been like some Maxleen thoals 1439 01:19:40,760 --> 01:19:43,360 Speaker 1: met the last about two years just doing anti vax stuff. 1440 01:19:43,720 --> 01:19:47,920 Speaker 1: The moment, like the moment Palestine became something that people 1441 01:19:47,920 --> 01:19:50,599 Speaker 1: were focusing on again, and you know, and there're gore 1442 01:19:50,680 --> 01:19:52,920 Speaker 1: reasons for that, right, like, but the moment he did that, 1443 01:19:52,960 --> 01:19:56,519 Speaker 1: he just pivoted back into doing Palestine stuff, and everyone 1444 01:19:56,640 --> 01:19:59,880 Speaker 1: just completely ignored what he'd been doing this whole time. 1445 01:20:00,400 --> 01:20:03,759 Speaker 1: And if you do this, and you could you pander 1446 01:20:03,960 --> 01:20:06,759 Speaker 1: to you pander to the antivactors and making anti vaxed content, 1447 01:20:06,840 --> 01:20:09,160 Speaker 1: and then also you could just go back and regain 1448 01:20:09,200 --> 01:20:12,919 Speaker 1: your leftist credentials and get views and support from leftists. 1449 01:20:12,960 --> 01:20:17,200 Speaker 1: By doing Palestigne stuff, you can make a lot of money, 1450 01:20:17,240 --> 01:20:20,400 Speaker 1: but there's a price. Every time you sell out to 1451 01:20:20,400 --> 01:20:22,960 Speaker 1: these people, you betray another part of yourself, until one 1452 01:20:23,040 --> 01:20:26,280 Speaker 1: day you believe in nothing left and the right and 1453 01:20:26,479 --> 01:20:28,479 Speaker 1: lose all meeting and the only thing that's left is 1454 01:20:28,520 --> 01:20:31,360 Speaker 1: content in the culture war. And I want to close 1455 01:20:31,400 --> 01:20:36,599 Speaker 1: this episode by talking by reading something from another Gray 1456 01:20:36,680 --> 01:20:41,200 Speaker 1: Zone contributor, Anya Parimpel, who is she's another Gray Zone journalist, 1457 01:20:41,240 --> 01:20:44,800 Speaker 1: and she's Maxi blue Wenthal's wife, and she she is 1458 01:20:44,840 --> 01:20:47,439 Speaker 1: the Gray Zone person who's reached the end of this cycle. 1459 01:20:48,040 --> 01:20:51,240 Speaker 1: Now I'm just going to read what this looks like quote. 1460 01:20:51,280 --> 01:20:53,960 Speaker 1: The labels of left and right are outdated in the US. 1461 01:20:54,200 --> 01:20:56,960 Speaker 1: Case in point, leftist white men now pander to other 1462 01:20:57,000 --> 01:20:59,160 Speaker 1: white men by telling women of color they're biggots for 1463 01:20:59,200 --> 01:21:01,720 Speaker 1: saying boys wouldn't be able to piss in the girls room. 1464 01:21:02,320 --> 01:21:06,560 Speaker 1: These same punks spent months loudly advocating against bodily. I 1465 01:21:06,600 --> 01:21:13,320 Speaker 1: don't know, Okay, her tweet just trails offices bodily. It 1466 01:21:13,400 --> 01:21:15,760 Speaker 1: says dot dot dot and just moves. I don't know. 1467 01:21:15,760 --> 01:21:19,200 Speaker 1: She's not a very good writer. Gender ideology has created 1468 01:21:19,240 --> 01:21:21,040 Speaker 1: a dynamic in which a bunch of men can come 1469 01:21:21,080 --> 01:21:23,840 Speaker 1: into organizing circles, play victim and a certain control over 1470 01:21:23,880 --> 01:21:26,720 Speaker 1: what is acceptible for others, especially women, to say and think. 1471 01:21:27,360 --> 01:21:30,280 Speaker 1: Most people know it's just misogyny tied up at a 1472 01:21:30,280 --> 01:21:34,040 Speaker 1: frilly bow, but are too afraid to it. Just dots 1473 01:21:34,080 --> 01:21:37,559 Speaker 1: off again. I deeply weird now that participants in the 1474 01:21:37,560 --> 01:21:40,559 Speaker 1: Impression Olympics have spent weeks attacking an anti war rally 1475 01:21:40,600 --> 01:21:42,839 Speaker 1: because it didn't fit their tunnel vision for the movement. 1476 01:21:43,360 --> 01:21:45,880 Speaker 1: Gloves are off. Good luck winning over the people with 1477 01:21:45,960 --> 01:21:48,200 Speaker 1: your message. The same people who believed workers should not 1478 01:21:48,280 --> 01:21:51,840 Speaker 1: be mandated to take an experimental injection that did not 1479 01:21:52,000 --> 01:21:54,559 Speaker 1: quote stop the spread, cried my body, my choice, and 1480 01:21:54,640 --> 01:21:57,360 Speaker 1: roe was overturned. Yet these same these are the same 1481 01:21:57,360 --> 01:22:02,280 Speaker 1: people who do not even believe biologue women exist total incoherence. 1482 01:22:04,160 --> 01:22:06,800 Speaker 1: So this is this is just a collection of This 1483 01:22:06,880 --> 01:22:07,120 Speaker 1: is just. 1484 01:22:07,080 --> 01:22:10,200 Speaker 4: A collection of like very basic right wing talking points 1485 01:22:10,200 --> 01:22:15,679 Speaker 4: like this is the the the like the false correlation 1486 01:22:16,240 --> 01:22:22,439 Speaker 4: between like reproductive health care and like vaccines for public health, 1487 01:22:22,560 --> 01:22:26,240 Speaker 4: and the stuff a gender gender ideology. All of it 1488 01:22:26,280 --> 01:22:30,200 Speaker 4: is just very very basic like talking points used used 1489 01:22:30,200 --> 01:22:32,759 Speaker 4: by the right that conflate various issues. 1490 01:22:33,800 --> 01:22:37,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just like this is indistinguishable from the ravings 1491 01:22:37,840 --> 01:22:40,680 Speaker 1: of any other right winger, and this is just this 1492 01:22:40,760 --> 01:22:44,160 Speaker 1: is just where this stuff ends, because this this this 1493 01:22:44,200 --> 01:22:47,479 Speaker 1: specific line, this is how you fucking make money. And 1494 01:22:47,800 --> 01:22:50,040 Speaker 1: you know, there's you know, I mean, we could talk 1495 01:22:50,080 --> 01:22:53,160 Speaker 1: about a million more iterations of how this these stuff 1496 01:22:53,200 --> 01:22:55,280 Speaker 1: fused together. I mean, maxply went aal goes to like 1497 01:22:55,280 --> 01:22:57,360 Speaker 1: an anti vax rally that has a bunch of like 1498 01:22:57,400 --> 01:22:59,640 Speaker 1: three percenters and like a bunch of just straight up 1499 01:22:59,720 --> 01:23:04,679 Speaker 1: right wing fascists. But you know, this is at least 1500 01:23:04,720 --> 01:23:07,160 Speaker 1: one of the end points of where this stuff goes. 1501 01:23:07,840 --> 01:23:10,280 Speaker 1: But tomorrow we're going to look at a group of 1502 01:23:10,280 --> 01:23:16,120 Speaker 1: people who took this even further. Yeah, so get ready 1503 01:23:16,120 --> 01:23:19,719 Speaker 1: for that ship, because it's about to get wildly anti semitic. 1504 01:23:20,280 --> 01:23:42,440 Speaker 1: Oh great, hooray. It's it's an introduction to the podcast. 1505 01:23:44,600 --> 01:23:50,240 Speaker 7: I'm your host Bi along with me with these Garrison. Hello, Hello, 1506 01:23:50,760 --> 01:23:55,439 Speaker 7: welcome to part three of This Nightmare. Yeah, so, okay, 1507 01:23:55,479 --> 01:23:58,120 Speaker 7: all the way back in episode one, I said that 1508 01:23:58,160 --> 01:24:01,639 Speaker 7: Marxist Leninism was based at a series of arguments about 1509 01:24:01,680 --> 01:24:03,800 Speaker 7: the state, the nature of socialism, and the left relation 1510 01:24:03,920 --> 01:24:06,600 Speaker 7: to nationalism, And today we're going to go through some 1511 01:24:06,640 --> 01:24:10,679 Speaker 7: of those arguments because they're key to understanding the rise 1512 01:24:10,720 --> 01:24:14,240 Speaker 7: of a new kind of nationalist socialism, one that's focused 1513 01:24:14,280 --> 01:24:17,320 Speaker 7: on taking back your country from nebulous global elites and 1514 01:24:17,360 --> 01:24:22,120 Speaker 7: from Zionists. They call it baga communism, but you might 1515 01:24:22,200 --> 01:24:27,760 Speaker 7: almost call it a kind of national socialism. So how 1516 01:24:27,800 --> 01:24:32,560 Speaker 7: do we get from Marxist Leninism in ideology, who's defining 1517 01:24:32,880 --> 01:24:36,559 Speaker 7: thing is pure total opposition to the American Empire, to 1518 01:24:36,960 --> 01:24:39,320 Speaker 7: maga communism and think about how great the US is 1519 01:24:39,360 --> 01:24:40,120 Speaker 7: and how much they. 1520 01:24:40,000 --> 01:24:43,600 Speaker 4: Like trump patriotic community. 1521 01:24:43,880 --> 01:24:47,439 Speaker 1: On that path, these are two distant Patriotic socialism and 1522 01:24:48,680 --> 01:24:51,840 Speaker 1: maga communism are two technically distinct things. Will be getting 1523 01:24:51,840 --> 01:24:55,559 Speaker 1: into that. It's a it's a long dark road ahead, 1524 01:24:56,400 --> 01:24:58,080 Speaker 1: but there's no light at the end of it either. 1525 01:24:58,120 --> 01:25:02,680 Speaker 1: It just it just keeps being long dark. So I 1526 01:25:02,720 --> 01:25:06,880 Speaker 1: think I think the place to start if you want 1527 01:25:06,880 --> 01:25:11,280 Speaker 1: to understand how this sort of like or a borous 1528 01:25:11,280 --> 01:25:15,439 Speaker 1: of shit emerged from the left is by talking about 1529 01:25:15,600 --> 01:25:20,559 Speaker 1: the left's discourse on nationalism. So one of the things 1530 01:25:20,680 --> 01:25:23,120 Speaker 1: that Marxist Leninism did, and this is one of its 1531 01:25:23,200 --> 01:25:28,320 Speaker 1: key political achievements, on the left was to rehabilitate nationalism 1532 01:25:28,360 --> 01:25:30,400 Speaker 1: and talk about it in a way that was very, 1533 01:25:30,560 --> 01:25:33,360 Speaker 1: very different to what was happening in the left before this. 1534 01:25:34,360 --> 01:25:37,640 Speaker 1: And you know, because the left around twenty eleven, like 1535 01:25:37,680 --> 01:25:40,519 Speaker 1: around Occupy, but after that tended to be very skeptical 1536 01:25:40,520 --> 01:25:42,880 Speaker 1: of nationalism because you know, they had come out of 1537 01:25:43,360 --> 01:25:45,840 Speaker 1: like the Bush era and where you know, had had 1538 01:25:45,960 --> 01:25:50,040 Speaker 1: had had first hand experience with like what American nationalism 1539 01:25:50,080 --> 01:25:54,960 Speaker 1: really looks like and how much it absolutely sucks now. 1540 01:25:55,040 --> 01:25:57,360 Speaker 1: And the Marxis Leninists are something to bring this bring 1541 01:25:57,439 --> 01:26:00,200 Speaker 1: nationalism back into the left, and they're doing this the 1542 01:26:00,320 --> 01:26:04,160 Speaker 1: arguments that aren't necessarily wrong. Their argument is effectively that 1543 01:26:04,200 --> 01:26:07,760 Speaker 1: anti colonial nationalism and anti colonial nationalisms, because there's a 1544 01:26:07,760 --> 01:26:12,320 Speaker 1: bunch of them, and particularly like non white anti colonial nationalism, like, 1545 01:26:12,439 --> 01:26:14,760 Speaker 1: aren't the same thing as American nationalism, and that these 1546 01:26:14,760 --> 01:26:17,760 Speaker 1: anti colonial nationalisms like are revolutionary. And this is true 1547 01:26:17,800 --> 01:26:20,960 Speaker 1: in a lot of cases, right, Like Palestinian nationalism is 1548 01:26:20,960 --> 01:26:26,599 Speaker 1: like a completely different thing from Australian nationalism. Yeah, and 1549 01:26:26,800 --> 01:26:32,559 Speaker 1: you know, I'm pretty opposed to like nationalism on principle, 1550 01:26:32,800 --> 01:26:35,000 Speaker 1: but I'm not going to like tell some Kourdish kid 1551 01:26:35,080 --> 01:26:37,479 Speaker 1: that they need to like abandon their desire to speak 1552 01:26:37,520 --> 01:26:40,920 Speaker 1: Krimungi because it's like insufficiently revolutionary or whatever. Right, Like, 1553 01:26:42,080 --> 01:26:43,800 Speaker 1: but this is where we kind of start running into 1554 01:26:43,920 --> 01:26:47,400 Speaker 1: problems because you know, okay, so what about like Bathism 1555 01:26:47,600 --> 01:26:51,240 Speaker 1: For example, Bathism originally is a leftist like nationalist movement 1556 01:26:51,360 --> 01:26:55,000 Speaker 1: right and they are opposed at least non lead to 1557 01:26:55,040 --> 01:26:58,880 Speaker 1: American imperialism. But they are one hardline anti communists and 1558 01:26:58,960 --> 01:27:02,719 Speaker 1: two hardcore Arab nationalists, which may have been vaguely tolerable 1559 01:27:02,760 --> 01:27:04,680 Speaker 1: if you were Arab, but like, God help you if 1560 01:27:04,680 --> 01:27:07,640 Speaker 1: you are like Kurdish or Syria or Yazdi or like 1561 01:27:07,680 --> 01:27:11,640 Speaker 1: any other national minority under bath Party rule, where you know, 1562 01:27:11,720 --> 01:27:13,280 Speaker 1: they're going to ban your flags, they're going to ban 1563 01:27:13,360 --> 01:27:16,200 Speaker 1: your language, they're going to like keep your keep you 1564 01:27:16,280 --> 01:27:21,920 Speaker 1: from like naming your kids like your names. This is 1565 01:27:21,960 --> 01:27:24,519 Speaker 1: literally a thing, Like it sounds absolutely nuts, but like yeah, 1566 01:27:24,560 --> 01:27:26,080 Speaker 1: like it was illegal to give your kid like a 1567 01:27:26,160 --> 01:27:29,599 Speaker 1: Kurdish name in both in both sort of Bathist Syria 1568 01:27:29,720 --> 01:27:33,400 Speaker 1: and Bathists I Raq. And you know, if you try 1569 01:27:33,439 --> 01:27:37,120 Speaker 1: to resist, they'll kill you. And I'm using Baphism like 1570 01:27:37,240 --> 01:27:41,400 Speaker 1: as an example for this, because like there are people 1571 01:27:41,479 --> 01:27:44,920 Speaker 1: now who are genuinely Bathists. But it's like it's really 1572 01:27:45,000 --> 01:27:47,839 Speaker 1: hard to find people who support the bath Party. 1573 01:27:49,680 --> 01:27:52,960 Speaker 4: Yes, for for reference, I have never heard of this 1574 01:27:53,160 --> 01:27:55,000 Speaker 4: despite have you never heard of the bath Party? 1575 01:27:55,400 --> 01:27:59,240 Speaker 1: This is this is Saddam Hussein's party in Okay. 1576 01:27:59,280 --> 01:28:03,160 Speaker 4: Well, in terms of of the it's relevancy to the 1577 01:28:03,200 --> 01:28:07,720 Speaker 4: modern kind of workings of of of the sort of 1578 01:28:07,960 --> 01:28:10,439 Speaker 4: political spheres I operated, this is not something that has 1579 01:28:10,439 --> 01:28:12,439 Speaker 4: come up in Yeah, I've in my. 1580 01:28:12,400 --> 01:28:15,760 Speaker 1: Conversations, I've ran into them. There. I've ran into a 1581 01:28:15,840 --> 01:28:18,760 Speaker 1: few neo Bathists who are either like Saddam well so 1582 01:28:18,760 --> 01:28:22,120 Speaker 1: so the big bastion of kind of like it's not 1583 01:28:22,120 --> 01:28:25,160 Speaker 1: even really Bathism anymore, but like like Basharo saw, it 1584 01:28:25,360 --> 01:28:31,280 Speaker 1: technically is like a Batheist. Okay, although his they're not 1585 01:28:31,560 --> 01:28:34,840 Speaker 1: really Baptists anymore. They just kind of have this party 1586 01:28:34,840 --> 01:28:38,679 Speaker 1: apparatus still around. But like you know, most people are like, Okay, 1587 01:28:38,720 --> 01:28:41,879 Speaker 1: this sucks, right, but but you know, I'm using Baptism 1588 01:28:41,880 --> 01:28:45,479 Speaker 1: because it's it's the easy tall. But like this is 1589 01:28:45,520 --> 01:28:50,480 Speaker 1: this is a question you have to ask with basically 1590 01:28:50,520 --> 01:28:53,320 Speaker 1: all national liberation movements, and it's one people don't like asking, 1591 01:28:53,360 --> 01:28:56,800 Speaker 1: which is whose nation is being liberated. And you know 1592 01:28:56,920 --> 01:28:59,680 Speaker 1: what kind of class collaboration and ideological collapse do these 1593 01:28:59,760 --> 01:29:04,920 Speaker 1: national movements produce? And these aren't abstract questions, right. One 1594 01:29:04,920 --> 01:29:07,519 Speaker 1: of the big examples of this is West Papua, which 1595 01:29:07,560 --> 01:29:13,280 Speaker 1: is a place that is ruthlessly and brutally colonized by Indonesia. 1596 01:29:13,880 --> 01:29:17,240 Speaker 1: But you know Sukarno, who's this great sort of like 1597 01:29:17,320 --> 01:29:20,519 Speaker 1: Sucarno is this great like anti imperialist hero. He's the 1598 01:29:20,560 --> 01:29:22,400 Speaker 1: guy who did the band Dun Conference, which is the 1599 01:29:22,600 --> 01:29:25,000 Speaker 1: giant assembly of all of the sort of like Asian 1600 01:29:25,040 --> 01:29:28,000 Speaker 1: and African states to like join together to resist imperialism. 1601 01:29:29,080 --> 01:29:31,719 Speaker 1: And but but like, one of the things that that 1602 01:29:31,720 --> 01:29:34,559 Speaker 1: that this left wing Indonesian nationalism is about is their 1603 01:29:34,640 --> 01:29:37,559 Speaker 1: right to colonize Papua. So the West Papua wins just 1604 01:29:37,560 --> 01:29:42,439 Speaker 1: get absolutely screwed over by by the Indonesians. And this 1605 01:29:42,520 --> 01:29:44,840 Speaker 1: is this is this place where you have to ask, like, 1606 01:29:44,920 --> 01:29:47,000 Speaker 1: whose nation is being liberated? And the answer is not 1607 01:29:47,040 --> 01:29:50,759 Speaker 1: the West pap Wins. Right, They're just getting absolutely screwed 1608 01:29:50,800 --> 01:29:53,160 Speaker 1: because the nation that's being liberated is this new nation 1609 01:29:53,200 --> 01:29:57,920 Speaker 1: of Indonesia and not them. And you know, I mean, 1610 01:29:57,920 --> 01:29:59,639 Speaker 1: I've talked about this on the show before, like I'm 1611 01:30:00,080 --> 01:30:03,600 Speaker 1: so skeptical of left wing nationalist movements because I'm from China, Like, 1612 01:30:03,920 --> 01:30:07,800 Speaker 1: like my family is from China, and we had two 1613 01:30:08,160 --> 01:30:11,160 Speaker 1: left wing national liberation movements traded back by the USSR, 1614 01:30:11,920 --> 01:30:14,160 Speaker 1: and the first one, which is the Chinese Nationalist Party, 1615 01:30:14,160 --> 01:30:16,160 Speaker 1: made it about seven years before they turned on the 1616 01:30:16,200 --> 01:30:18,120 Speaker 1: Chinese working class and bushered them in the streets with 1617 01:30:18,200 --> 01:30:21,000 Speaker 1: machine guns and then spent the next seventy years is 1618 01:30:21,040 --> 01:30:23,599 Speaker 1: like a fascist desk squad party. And then the other one, 1619 01:30:23,600 --> 01:30:27,599 Speaker 1: the Chinese Communist Party, lasted yeah, it maybe like forty years. 1620 01:30:27,760 --> 01:30:31,200 Speaker 1: I mean they lasted like how many years in power, 1621 01:30:31,320 --> 01:30:33,160 Speaker 1: like seventeen years in power before they get to the 1622 01:30:33,160 --> 01:30:35,320 Speaker 1: Cultural Revolution where they were also shooting workers in the 1623 01:30:35,320 --> 01:30:37,840 Speaker 1: streets and bulldozing moss and ching John, which is the 1624 01:30:37,880 --> 01:30:40,360 Speaker 1: thing that they continue to do to this day as 1625 01:30:40,439 --> 01:30:43,120 Speaker 1: part of what is and I shit you not the 1626 01:30:43,960 --> 01:30:46,920 Speaker 1: name for the quote unquote counter terrorism operation that China 1627 01:30:47,000 --> 01:30:49,559 Speaker 1: runs in Ching John is the People's War on Terror. 1628 01:30:51,200 --> 01:30:54,519 Speaker 1: I wish I was making this up. I'm not right 1629 01:30:55,000 --> 01:30:57,160 Speaker 1: this and this is a probauct of Chinese nationalism, right, 1630 01:30:57,200 --> 01:31:00,120 Speaker 1: like like it's Chinese is amophobia and Chinese nationalist some 1631 01:31:00,200 --> 01:31:03,040 Speaker 1: that sort of do this stuff. I'm very skeptical of 1632 01:31:03,120 --> 01:31:05,920 Speaker 1: nationalism as like a liberatory framework, but like it's complicated, right, 1633 01:31:05,960 --> 01:31:09,400 Speaker 1: It's genuinely is sure one of these things that's you know, 1634 01:31:09,520 --> 01:31:12,520 Speaker 1: like there there are there are there's lots of nuances 1635 01:31:12,520 --> 01:31:15,280 Speaker 1: to it, and you know, I think you have to 1636 01:31:15,320 --> 01:31:17,880 Speaker 1: take a kind of middle ground of like you have 1637 01:31:17,960 --> 01:31:20,400 Speaker 1: to keep it kind of under control, but also like 1638 01:31:20,400 --> 01:31:22,160 Speaker 1: I'm not going to go tele a Palestinian care that 1639 01:31:22,160 --> 01:31:25,880 Speaker 1: their nationalism is bad, right, like it's you know, I should. 1640 01:31:26,040 --> 01:31:28,120 Speaker 1: I realized that I've never explained this the whole time 1641 01:31:28,160 --> 01:31:31,560 Speaker 1: I was doing this. So mL is an abbreviation for 1642 01:31:31,680 --> 01:31:35,000 Speaker 1: Marxist Leninist that people say because saying Marxist Leninists over 1643 01:31:35,040 --> 01:31:36,479 Speaker 1: and over again, like I've been doing for these past 1644 01:31:36,479 --> 01:31:42,200 Speaker 1: two episodes is wearying. Yeah, So the MLS decided to 1645 01:31:42,200 --> 01:31:45,679 Speaker 1: take the other extreme, which is just mainlining every single 1646 01:31:45,760 --> 01:31:48,639 Speaker 1: non Western nationalism that can get their hands on, because 1647 01:31:48,880 --> 01:31:53,559 Speaker 1: they're trying to hold nationalist positions that are contradictory at 1648 01:31:53,560 --> 01:31:56,760 Speaker 1: the same time. So for example like that, they're trying 1649 01:31:56,800 --> 01:32:00,200 Speaker 1: to be both. Okay, I guess I should explain this 1650 01:32:00,240 --> 01:32:02,400 Speaker 1: a little bit so part of it is people being 1651 01:32:02,479 --> 01:32:05,240 Speaker 1: nationalists for countries that they're not from, which is deeply weird. 1652 01:32:05,520 --> 01:32:07,080 Speaker 1: Part of it also, and this is this is part 1653 01:32:07,080 --> 01:32:09,519 Speaker 1: of the reason this stuff spread is you know, you 1654 01:32:09,560 --> 01:32:12,439 Speaker 1: get like Chinese people becoming Chinese nationalists, like in response 1655 01:32:12,520 --> 01:32:16,000 Speaker 1: to like COVID and anti Asian violence or just sort 1656 01:32:16,040 --> 01:32:19,640 Speaker 1: of in general as like a pipeline. But you know, 1657 01:32:19,680 --> 01:32:22,400 Speaker 1: you get people trying to have both being both like 1658 01:32:22,479 --> 01:32:26,840 Speaker 1: Chinese nationalists and Vietnamese nationalist at the same time, and 1659 01:32:27,240 --> 01:32:29,120 Speaker 1: that doesn't make any sense. I mean, like the whole 1660 01:32:29,120 --> 01:32:32,360 Speaker 1: apparatus that all of these sort of revolutionary anti imperialist 1661 01:32:32,439 --> 01:32:35,120 Speaker 1: nationalisms would work together was sha like should have been 1662 01:32:35,200 --> 01:32:39,600 Speaker 1: shattered when China invaded Vietnam. Their solution to this is 1663 01:32:39,640 --> 01:32:44,400 Speaker 1: just to pretend that it never happened, you know. And 1664 01:32:44,400 --> 01:32:47,519 Speaker 1: and but but like like Chinese and Vietnamese nationalists like 1665 01:32:47,560 --> 01:32:50,720 Speaker 1: don't like each other, like on the Vietnamese side in 1666 01:32:51,320 --> 01:32:54,000 Speaker 1: like modern Vietnam. So they have like a basically their 1667 01:32:54,000 --> 01:32:56,439 Speaker 1: own vers it's not actually their own version of like 1668 01:32:56,479 --> 01:32:58,840 Speaker 1: it's not actually like a QAnon branded thing, but they 1669 01:32:58,880 --> 01:33:01,040 Speaker 1: have a conspiracy theory that like their version of the 1670 01:33:01,120 --> 01:33:05,240 Speaker 1: like sovereign citizen like q thing, and their version of 1671 01:33:05,240 --> 01:33:08,519 Speaker 1: it is that it basically says that the Vietnamese government 1672 01:33:08,640 --> 01:33:11,280 Speaker 1: sold the country to China in nineteen ninety and they're 1673 01:33:11,280 --> 01:33:13,920 Speaker 1: like embarking on like a forty year plan to like 1674 01:33:14,080 --> 01:33:19,559 Speaker 1: fully sell the country to China, and like the Globe, 1675 01:33:19,600 --> 01:33:24,320 Speaker 1: like Western House just completely ignore this stuff because it's 1676 01:33:24,400 --> 01:33:26,360 Speaker 1: not convenient for them, and they just pretend that all 1677 01:33:26,400 --> 01:33:31,240 Speaker 1: these people get along. But this stuff gets, you know, 1678 01:33:31,320 --> 01:33:37,320 Speaker 1: it gets incredibly bizarre and like just weird really quickly. 1679 01:33:37,360 --> 01:33:39,000 Speaker 1: Like one of the things I remember from back in 1680 01:33:39,000 --> 01:33:41,519 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen, I started I was hearing like 1681 01:33:42,640 --> 01:33:45,680 Speaker 1: leftists talking about how Ukraine wasn't a real nationality and 1682 01:33:45,720 --> 01:33:48,080 Speaker 1: how they've been invented by Nazis and that Ukrainians are 1683 01:33:48,120 --> 01:33:50,920 Speaker 1: inherently fascist, and I was like, what, like why is 1684 01:33:50,960 --> 01:33:53,920 Speaker 1: some random kid from New Jersey suddenly screaming about how 1685 01:33:54,000 --> 01:33:57,760 Speaker 1: Ukraine is like a fake nationality? And you know, it 1686 01:33:57,800 --> 01:34:01,360 Speaker 1: turns out, yeah, like it's because these people were like 1687 01:34:01,880 --> 01:34:05,719 Speaker 1: really getting into Russian nationalism, and like in like twenty sixteen, 1688 01:34:05,760 --> 01:34:07,559 Speaker 1: it was just deeply weird. And then you get to 1689 01:34:07,600 --> 01:34:09,439 Speaker 1: like twenty twenty two and all these people are just 1690 01:34:09,439 --> 01:34:13,000 Speaker 1: straight up supporting like Putin's invasion of Ukraine on the 1691 01:34:13,000 --> 01:34:16,400 Speaker 1: grounds that like Ukraine isn't a real place and also 1692 01:34:16,800 --> 01:34:21,720 Speaker 1: is only Nazis and stuff like that. And this has 1693 01:34:22,600 --> 01:34:27,439 Speaker 1: real sort of ideological consequences for what Marxist Leninism becomes, 1694 01:34:27,479 --> 01:34:33,040 Speaker 1: because it begins to pivot around a collection of nationalism, 1695 01:34:33,120 --> 01:34:34,920 Speaker 1: so the point where it's not even it's not based 1696 01:34:34,920 --> 01:34:39,200 Speaker 1: on communism anymore, it's just pure economic nationalism. And this 1697 01:34:39,280 --> 01:34:43,439 Speaker 1: is a product of these incredibly convoluted justifications they have 1698 01:34:43,479 --> 01:34:46,519 Speaker 1: to put together for supporting China, which is objectively a 1699 01:34:46,600 --> 01:34:49,559 Speaker 1: market economy and like very obviously a market economy, will 1700 01:34:49,960 --> 01:34:51,720 Speaker 1: you know, so they have to support China while also 1701 01:34:51,760 --> 01:34:55,200 Speaker 1: nominally being anti capitalist. I'm not going to go into 1702 01:34:55,240 --> 01:34:58,840 Speaker 1: these arguments because they're just pseudo Marxist gibberish. It's just 1703 01:34:58,840 --> 01:35:01,920 Speaker 1: just weird intellectual posta ring. I think it's more useful 1704 01:35:01,960 --> 01:35:03,800 Speaker 1: to look at where it ends up, which is have 1705 01:35:03,960 --> 01:35:08,160 Speaker 1: have you ran into the people advocating bricks. It's like 1706 01:35:08,200 --> 01:35:12,840 Speaker 1: the great anti American thing. Do you know what bricks is? No? 1707 01:35:13,880 --> 01:35:14,080 Speaker 4: Oh? 1708 01:35:14,160 --> 01:35:16,680 Speaker 1: God, okay, so I don't know. Get I don't think 1709 01:35:16,720 --> 01:35:21,200 Speaker 1: so bricks is a thing. That stands for Brazil, Russia, India, China, 1710 01:35:21,240 --> 01:35:22,000 Speaker 1: and South Africa. 1711 01:35:22,160 --> 01:35:22,880 Speaker 4: Oh god, it. 1712 01:35:23,400 --> 01:35:27,439 Speaker 1: Was originally a asset class developed by the chairman of 1713 01:35:27,479 --> 01:35:30,479 Speaker 1: asset management at Goldman Sachs. So this is how you 1714 01:35:30,560 --> 01:35:33,160 Speaker 1: know it's really anti imperialist, right, Like this. 1715 01:35:34,240 --> 01:35:37,519 Speaker 4: It's golden golden Sacks, carrier of the red flag. 1716 01:35:38,000 --> 01:35:40,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, like it's it's it's an investment, It's an outline 1717 01:35:40,280 --> 01:35:41,480 Speaker 1: of an investment strategy. 1718 01:35:41,560 --> 01:35:41,720 Speaker 2: Right. 1719 01:35:42,600 --> 01:35:44,639 Speaker 1: But a lot of a lot of these people become 1720 01:35:44,720 --> 01:35:47,000 Speaker 1: convinced that like bricks is like it's like a real 1721 01:35:47,040 --> 01:35:49,680 Speaker 1: alliance and these people are like gonna like create the 1722 01:35:49,760 --> 01:35:52,679 Speaker 1: multipolar world where the US is no longer the only power. 1723 01:35:52,760 --> 01:35:56,439 Speaker 1: This is anti imperialist and like uhhh yeah, this is 1724 01:35:56,600 --> 01:36:00,120 Speaker 1: like on a fundamental level if you're pushing bricks as 1725 01:36:00,120 --> 01:36:03,320 Speaker 1: an anti imperialist formation, Like what are we even doing here? 1726 01:36:04,000 --> 01:36:09,839 Speaker 1: Like who is doing the socialism in Brazil, Russia, India 1727 01:36:09,840 --> 01:36:12,240 Speaker 1: and China and South Africa? Right? Like is it the 1728 01:36:12,280 --> 01:36:15,040 Speaker 1: guy who invaded Haiti? Is it the butcher a Gujarat? 1729 01:36:15,200 --> 01:36:19,160 Speaker 1: Is it Vladimir quote, we will show Ukraine true decommunization 1730 01:36:19,320 --> 01:36:22,240 Speaker 1: putin is it the African National Congress of selling your 1731 01:36:22,280 --> 01:36:24,920 Speaker 1: comrades out to Bank of America or is it quote 1732 01:36:24,960 --> 01:36:28,599 Speaker 1: we must combat Welfaism shijianping, Like none of these states 1733 01:36:28,640 --> 01:36:31,760 Speaker 1: are even remotely socialist, but you know, people are people 1734 01:36:32,080 --> 01:36:35,080 Speaker 1: are holding them up as like anti imperialist powers because 1735 01:36:35,280 --> 01:36:39,000 Speaker 1: you know, their their sort of faux anti imperialism has 1736 01:36:39,240 --> 01:36:43,519 Speaker 1: completely devoured whatever their anti capitalism used to be. And 1737 01:36:43,600 --> 01:36:45,280 Speaker 1: you know, you shouldn't look too close to yet, like 1738 01:36:45,400 --> 01:36:49,400 Speaker 1: India's relations with the US either, pay no attention to 1739 01:36:49,439 --> 01:36:53,439 Speaker 1: the fact that Indian and Chinese truth periodically beat each 1740 01:36:53,479 --> 01:36:57,439 Speaker 1: other to death in the mountains. You know, it's a disaster. 1741 01:36:57,680 --> 01:37:04,600 Speaker 1: But this is what happens you mix nationalism with your socialism. 1742 01:37:05,640 --> 01:37:08,120 Speaker 1: And because of where this is going, we should talk 1743 01:37:08,160 --> 01:37:10,120 Speaker 1: about the history a little bit, about the history of 1744 01:37:10,160 --> 01:37:14,639 Speaker 1: displacing class struggle with the struggle between states. Because one 1745 01:37:14,680 --> 01:37:18,040 Speaker 1: of the people who does this is a man that 1746 01:37:18,120 --> 01:37:20,679 Speaker 1: a garrison. I bet you have heard of. His name 1747 01:37:20,840 --> 01:37:22,240 Speaker 1: is Benito Mussolini. 1748 01:37:23,040 --> 01:37:26,960 Speaker 4: Oh yes, I'm slightly familiar with his with his work. 1749 01:37:27,960 --> 01:37:31,519 Speaker 1: Yeah, And Mussolini's thing, like one of his things in 1750 01:37:31,560 --> 01:37:33,840 Speaker 1: the beginning is that you know, okay, so like the 1751 01:37:33,840 --> 01:37:37,000 Speaker 1: Marxist line is that there's class struggle between the proletariat 1752 01:37:37,080 --> 01:37:39,840 Speaker 1: and the BOURGEOISI. Right, So the capitalists and working class 1753 01:37:39,840 --> 01:37:42,720 Speaker 1: are fighting it out, and that's the you know, the 1754 01:37:42,760 --> 01:37:44,920 Speaker 1: logic of history is driven by these two classes fighting 1755 01:37:44,960 --> 01:37:49,040 Speaker 1: it out, and Mussolini goes no, no, proletarians of bourgeoisie 1756 01:37:49,080 --> 01:37:52,960 Speaker 1: have been replaced by the struggle between like proletarian nations 1757 01:37:53,280 --> 01:37:59,080 Speaker 1: and capitalists nations. So this is you know, you can 1758 01:37:59,120 --> 01:38:01,439 Speaker 1: you can start to see the outlines of how we're 1759 01:38:01,479 --> 01:38:06,320 Speaker 1: going to get to a national socialism from here. But first, 1760 01:38:06,439 --> 01:38:12,479 Speaker 1: do you know who else opposes a national socialism? Is 1761 01:38:12,520 --> 01:38:13,599 Speaker 1: it the products? 1762 01:38:14,560 --> 01:38:20,680 Speaker 4: Okay this podcast? Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure advertising hates 1763 01:38:20,760 --> 01:38:24,920 Speaker 4: the tenants of national socialism. 1764 01:38:25,360 --> 01:38:30,080 Speaker 1: We're back, okay, So we have the nationalism part in 1765 01:38:30,200 --> 01:38:35,479 Speaker 1: national socialism. And one of the other parts about this 1766 01:38:35,640 --> 01:38:39,479 Speaker 1: nationalism is that it's the vector by which a bunch 1767 01:38:39,479 --> 01:38:42,439 Speaker 1: of right wing social values start creeping into these Marxist 1768 01:38:42,479 --> 01:38:45,920 Speaker 1: lnin spaces, because there are still a lot of like 1769 01:38:46,040 --> 01:38:49,440 Speaker 1: old school MARXISTLINS parties left over from like the sixties, 1770 01:38:51,120 --> 01:38:53,800 Speaker 1: but a lot of them are just basically right wingers now, 1771 01:38:53,920 --> 01:38:58,160 Speaker 1: Like they're unbelievably homophobic, they're transphobic, they like scream about 1772 01:38:58,160 --> 01:39:01,960 Speaker 1: cancel culture all the time, like they're just they're just boomers, right, 1773 01:39:02,040 --> 01:39:03,960 Speaker 1: but they're boomers who the thing they're a boomer for 1774 01:39:04,120 --> 01:39:09,559 Speaker 1: is marked just leninism. And the ML's strategy for dealing 1775 01:39:09,600 --> 01:39:13,760 Speaker 1: with this was to just ignore it effectively, you know. 1776 01:39:13,960 --> 01:39:16,599 Speaker 1: And and they're they're they're able, they do a really 1777 01:39:16,640 --> 01:39:19,519 Speaker 1: good job at ignoring this is happening right, like the 1778 01:39:19,560 --> 01:39:22,080 Speaker 1: fact that Russia has passed a series of laws that 1779 01:39:22,200 --> 01:39:26,360 Speaker 1: ban all gender affirming surgery and changing like all They 1780 01:39:26,360 --> 01:39:29,120 Speaker 1: bann all gender affirming surgery. They banned like anything that 1781 01:39:29,200 --> 01:39:31,400 Speaker 1: allows would have allowed you to change your gender on 1782 01:39:31,439 --> 01:39:37,599 Speaker 1: like any any like any state identification documents. Uh, they've 1783 01:39:37,600 --> 01:39:40,439 Speaker 1: banned same sex marriage and the Constitution. They banned anyone 1784 01:39:40,520 --> 01:39:42,880 Speaker 1: like the recent one is they banned anyone from saying 1785 01:39:42,880 --> 01:39:46,479 Speaker 1: that same sex relationships are quote normal or good and 1786 01:39:46,520 --> 01:39:48,080 Speaker 1: those are their words, not mine. 1787 01:39:48,400 --> 01:39:49,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, I have seen this. 1788 01:39:50,320 --> 01:39:52,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, they've also declared the quote global 1789 01:39:53,000 --> 01:39:56,799 Speaker 1: LGBTQ movement as an extremist organ immediately started doing raids 1790 01:39:56,800 --> 01:40:01,040 Speaker 1: on like queer ballers and nightclubs. And this has changed 1791 01:40:01,040 --> 01:40:04,600 Speaker 1: the minds of zero of the MLS who've been supporting 1792 01:40:05,520 --> 01:40:09,280 Speaker 1: who've been supporting like the Russian invasion of Ukraine. They 1793 01:40:09,320 --> 01:40:14,639 Speaker 1: just don't care. And because they don't care, because they've 1794 01:40:14,680 --> 01:40:17,040 Speaker 1: been doing they've been spending an incredibly you know. One 1795 01:40:17,080 --> 01:40:18,400 Speaker 1: of the things that they do too, is like they've 1796 01:40:18,439 --> 01:40:20,800 Speaker 1: been trying to they try to make the argument that like, no, no, no, 1797 01:40:20,800 --> 01:40:22,639 Speaker 1: these places are actually good for group people. I see 1798 01:40:22,640 --> 01:40:24,880 Speaker 1: this with China a lot, where they're like, no, no, 1799 01:40:25,200 --> 01:40:28,920 Speaker 1: China has one trans person who was a talk show host, 1800 01:40:29,040 --> 01:40:31,639 Speaker 1: So conditions for trans people there are really good. Meanwhile, 1801 01:40:31,720 --> 01:40:36,120 Speaker 1: like actually being a transperson and trying to fucking sucks ass. 1802 01:40:36,520 --> 01:40:41,919 Speaker 1: There's really only like a tiny number of of gender clinics, 1803 01:40:41,920 --> 01:40:44,599 Speaker 1: like you have to like you have to like there's 1804 01:40:44,600 --> 01:40:47,040 Speaker 1: like this whole thing where you have to like get 1805 01:40:47,080 --> 01:40:49,200 Speaker 1: approval from a bunch of people to get surgery. You 1806 01:40:49,240 --> 01:40:51,160 Speaker 1: have to like prove you're not a criminal or something. 1807 01:40:51,160 --> 01:40:53,400 Speaker 1: You to have like a great it's it's it's completely nuts. 1808 01:40:53,439 --> 01:40:57,720 Speaker 1: The whole system is just nuts, right, But you know 1809 01:40:57,760 --> 01:40:59,840 Speaker 1: they would either just pretend that it wasn't real or 1810 01:40:59,880 --> 01:41:03,519 Speaker 1: just completely ignore it. And what this did was leave 1811 01:41:03,560 --> 01:41:06,679 Speaker 1: a space, like leave room in these Martians lenited spaces 1812 01:41:06,680 --> 01:41:10,080 Speaker 1: for people who are not really leftists at all, but 1813 01:41:10,080 --> 01:41:13,960 Speaker 1: are just like hard lined, homophobic, like transphobic, anti American nationalists. 1814 01:41:14,840 --> 01:41:16,680 Speaker 1: And I started seeing this with because so one of 1815 01:41:16,720 --> 01:41:18,680 Speaker 1: the problems that Martcis Leninism has is that it's not 1816 01:41:19,000 --> 01:41:24,960 Speaker 1: it's not an ideology that exists outside of like the US, Britain, Australia, 1817 01:41:25,479 --> 01:41:29,479 Speaker 1: a bit of Europe, right like, it doesn't exist in China. 1818 01:41:29,640 --> 01:41:32,479 Speaker 1: The closest equivalent to this stuff in China, like people 1819 01:41:32,560 --> 01:41:36,120 Speaker 1: who are pro like very hardline pro Chinese government and 1820 01:41:36,160 --> 01:41:38,800 Speaker 1: are also like pro Chinese nationalism. The only people in 1821 01:41:38,920 --> 01:41:42,120 Speaker 1: China who believe this stuff are hardline right wingers, like 1822 01:41:42,120 --> 01:41:43,840 Speaker 1: people who are people who in the US would be 1823 01:41:43,840 --> 01:41:47,519 Speaker 1: classified as fascists. And you started to see these people 1824 01:41:47,640 --> 01:41:50,760 Speaker 1: like moving into like Marcius Lendino spaces because you know, 1825 01:41:50,840 --> 01:41:53,759 Speaker 1: nobody gave a shit that they were like incredibly homophobic 1826 01:41:53,840 --> 01:41:55,479 Speaker 1: and transphobic and they were just I mean again, just 1827 01:41:55,520 --> 01:42:00,920 Speaker 1: objectively right wingers, right, and they start to sort of 1828 01:42:01,160 --> 01:42:07,240 Speaker 1: creep into these spaces. Now, this may or may not 1829 01:42:07,439 --> 01:42:11,200 Speaker 1: have ever turned into a real thing, we don't know, 1830 01:42:11,280 --> 01:42:17,000 Speaker 1: but there were two break points that really like kicked 1831 01:42:17,080 --> 01:42:19,559 Speaker 1: the sort of birth of the the of like maga, 1832 01:42:19,560 --> 01:42:22,880 Speaker 1: communism and patriarchs and like the sort of right trajectory 1833 01:42:22,920 --> 01:42:27,360 Speaker 1: of this stuff, like into focus. There was some stuff 1834 01:42:27,360 --> 01:42:29,400 Speaker 1: that happened in the middle of the twenty twenty uprisings 1835 01:42:29,400 --> 01:42:35,040 Speaker 1: and then surprise, surprise, January sixth. So do you remember 1836 01:42:35,439 --> 01:42:37,800 Speaker 1: you probably yeah, you were probably busy while this was 1837 01:42:37,840 --> 01:42:41,160 Speaker 1: going on. Do you remember that the giant outcry over 1838 01:42:41,200 --> 01:42:45,040 Speaker 1: the book in Defensive Looting? Uh? 1839 01:42:45,120 --> 01:42:49,360 Speaker 4: Slightly, Yeah, I know that liberals were mad about the 1840 01:42:49,400 --> 01:42:50,839 Speaker 4: title of the book, that's. 1841 01:42:51,000 --> 01:42:56,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, and and conservative selfiously oh yeah, yeah so yeah. 1842 01:42:56,280 --> 01:42:57,840 Speaker 1: So so in the middle of the uprising kind of, 1843 01:42:57,840 --> 01:42:59,559 Speaker 1: I guess, kind of towards the tail end of the uprising, 1844 01:42:59,800 --> 01:43:03,080 Speaker 1: completely by coincidence, my friend Vicky austinwil had been writing 1845 01:43:03,080 --> 01:43:05,320 Speaker 1: a book called Indefensive Looting, which people should actually go 1846 01:43:05,360 --> 01:43:09,559 Speaker 1: read because it's really interesting, and she got an interview 1847 01:43:09,640 --> 01:43:13,280 Speaker 1: with MPR about it, and people lost their fucking minds 1848 01:43:13,720 --> 01:43:18,080 Speaker 1: about this book. Like everyone from like everyone from Tucker 1849 01:43:18,120 --> 01:43:21,439 Speaker 1: Carlson who like sitting members of the US Senate were 1850 01:43:21,479 --> 01:43:23,360 Speaker 1: going on record announcing like I think I think the 1851 01:43:23,400 --> 01:43:27,280 Speaker 1: Democratic Party like officially denounced it like it was I 1852 01:43:27,600 --> 01:43:32,240 Speaker 1: have never seen this kind of like cross partisan every 1853 01:43:32,360 --> 01:43:35,599 Speaker 1: like hate longering about a book, and like the entire 1854 01:43:35,680 --> 01:43:38,680 Speaker 1: time I've been on the left, and you know, and 1855 01:43:38,760 --> 01:43:42,200 Speaker 1: this this didn't just it wasn't just liberals and conservatives 1856 01:43:42,240 --> 01:43:45,120 Speaker 1: and fascists whore freaking out about this. This extended to 1857 01:43:45,200 --> 01:43:47,800 Speaker 1: a bunch of the left. There was there's a lot 1858 01:43:47,880 --> 01:43:49,719 Speaker 1: of like like Ian the editors of the New Republic 1859 01:43:49,920 --> 01:43:52,960 Speaker 1: right or like writing articles announcing this stuff like it 1860 01:43:53,000 --> 01:43:55,320 Speaker 1: is it's and it spreads across the social democratic left 1861 01:43:55,320 --> 01:43:57,400 Speaker 1: because the social Democrats are mad that people are looting 1862 01:43:57,439 --> 01:44:03,200 Speaker 1: small businesses. And the other group that really really comes 1863 01:44:03,200 --> 01:44:06,200 Speaker 1: out against this is like, are the Marxistlennon is like 1864 01:44:06,240 --> 01:44:08,680 Speaker 1: as people like the gray Zone. People really come out 1865 01:44:08,720 --> 01:44:12,360 Speaker 1: against this, And you know, okay, so like why am 1866 01:44:12,360 --> 01:44:15,040 Speaker 1: I talking about people not liking a book. The reason 1867 01:44:15,240 --> 01:44:18,520 Speaker 1: I want to talk about this is that what emerges 1868 01:44:18,720 --> 01:44:22,840 Speaker 1: from this specific thing. So Vicky, the author of this book, 1869 01:44:22,920 --> 01:44:26,080 Speaker 1: is both trans and Jewish, and what emerges here is 1870 01:44:26,080 --> 01:44:31,879 Speaker 1: this very specific combination of transphobia, anti semitism, anti black racism, 1871 01:44:32,000 --> 01:44:34,479 Speaker 1: both explicitly anti black racism and in the form of 1872 01:44:34,560 --> 01:44:38,920 Speaker 1: crime panics. And if you look at all of those 1873 01:44:39,000 --> 01:44:42,480 Speaker 1: elements together, that has been the entire right wing strategy 1874 01:44:43,280 --> 01:44:45,720 Speaker 1: for you know, putting all of the like uppity minorities 1875 01:44:45,760 --> 01:44:48,320 Speaker 1: back in their place after the uprising right that was 1876 01:44:48,360 --> 01:44:53,439 Speaker 1: their entire strategy, the defense of small businesses, you know, 1877 01:44:53,439 --> 01:44:55,320 Speaker 1: and then and then turning that into crime panic to 1878 01:44:55,640 --> 01:44:58,439 Speaker 1: rebuild support for the police. This was you know, that 1879 01:44:58,479 --> 01:45:02,200 Speaker 1: anti semitism and transphobia. That is their entire strategy for 1880 01:45:02,280 --> 01:45:04,680 Speaker 1: post twenty twenty. And this is like, this is the 1881 01:45:04,720 --> 01:45:06,720 Speaker 1: place where it was first. All of it was put 1882 01:45:06,760 --> 01:45:11,519 Speaker 1: together in one spot. And again like a lot of 1883 01:45:11,560 --> 01:45:13,839 Speaker 1: people who are nominally socialists, like a lot of Marxist 1884 01:45:13,840 --> 01:45:17,040 Speaker 1: Londonists like join in on this because even though the 1885 01:45:17,200 --> 01:45:23,480 Speaker 1: point of socialism is to like end capitalists owning private property. 1886 01:45:23,439 --> 01:45:27,880 Speaker 4: Well that is that is ostensibly the point, I think, yeah, but. 1887 01:45:27,800 --> 01:45:30,400 Speaker 1: In reality, like like the Marxist London is, like they 1888 01:45:30,400 --> 01:45:33,880 Speaker 1: don't actually oppose capitalism, they just think it should be 1889 01:45:33,960 --> 01:45:37,160 Speaker 1: run by someone else. So they everyone, like everyone falls 1890 01:45:37,200 --> 01:45:40,200 Speaker 1: in line and joins this sort of like you know, 1891 01:45:40,280 --> 01:45:42,720 Speaker 1: joins the sort of ritual denunciation of this book. And 1892 01:45:42,760 --> 01:45:44,479 Speaker 1: this is one of these things that really sort of 1893 01:45:44,640 --> 01:45:47,960 Speaker 1: cleaves like it really it cleaves the left in between 1894 01:45:47,960 --> 01:45:51,040 Speaker 1: the people who like actually fully support the uprising, and 1895 01:45:51,040 --> 01:45:52,960 Speaker 1: the people who are like, oh no, the small business 1896 01:45:53,000 --> 01:45:57,040 Speaker 1: is oh no, the horror. And the second thing that 1897 01:45:57,280 --> 01:46:01,400 Speaker 1: really reshapes the environment, like the whole sort of ecosystem 1898 01:46:02,200 --> 01:46:06,840 Speaker 1: like of the left is January sixth, and so I 1899 01:46:06,840 --> 01:46:08,799 Speaker 1: don't know if people how much people remember the initial 1900 01:46:08,840 --> 01:46:11,120 Speaker 1: reactions to it. I think the reactions to January sixth 1901 01:46:11,120 --> 01:46:14,240 Speaker 1: and the left can be divided into roughly three different reactions, 1902 01:46:14,280 --> 01:46:19,519 Speaker 1: although people have mixes of them. Reaction one, this is funny, 1903 01:46:20,600 --> 01:46:23,000 Speaker 1: reaction two, oh my god, the fascists tried to do 1904 01:46:23,040 --> 01:46:26,320 Speaker 1: a coup and installed Trump as dictator. And reaction three 1905 01:46:26,400 --> 01:46:29,400 Speaker 1: January sixth was the white working class having its revenge 1906 01:46:29,400 --> 01:46:36,320 Speaker 1: on the liberal politicians. Now, okay, objectively, we can say 1907 01:46:36,840 --> 01:46:39,960 Speaker 1: that January safe was not the white working class. It's 1908 01:46:40,000 --> 01:46:41,240 Speaker 1: revenge with the politicians. 1909 01:46:41,600 --> 01:46:45,599 Speaker 4: If you are one of the first two opinions, that's fine, 1910 01:46:45,720 --> 01:46:48,080 Speaker 4: that's normal, that makes sense. If you're the last of one, 1911 01:46:48,080 --> 01:46:49,760 Speaker 4: you should stop listening to this podcast. 1912 01:46:50,040 --> 01:46:52,479 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know I want to Actually so I 1913 01:46:52,520 --> 01:46:54,280 Speaker 1: spent a bunch of time after this, and some other 1914 01:46:54,320 --> 01:46:57,200 Speaker 1: people did this too, like trying to figure out the 1915 01:46:57,280 --> 01:47:00,640 Speaker 1: actual like who from who was arrest student who we 1916 01:47:00,720 --> 01:47:03,800 Speaker 1: know was there what their actual class backgrounds are. And 1917 01:47:03,840 --> 01:47:06,280 Speaker 1: it turns out the three most common kinds of people 1918 01:47:06,280 --> 01:47:09,000 Speaker 1: who were there are troops, cops, the small business owners. 1919 01:47:09,080 --> 01:47:12,400 Speaker 1: Which is it is as pure of an expression of 1920 01:47:12,400 --> 01:47:15,880 Speaker 1: the social base of fascism as you can possibly get, right, 1921 01:47:16,040 --> 01:47:19,040 Speaker 1: like it is. The world was just like, hey, this 1922 01:47:19,080 --> 01:47:21,679 Speaker 1: is what fashions crops like. I mean it is, well, 1923 01:47:21,760 --> 01:47:23,559 Speaker 1: I think there's I think there's a lot a lot. 1924 01:47:23,520 --> 01:47:25,920 Speaker 4: Of participants in that crowd who I maybe wouldn't even 1925 01:47:26,000 --> 01:47:30,439 Speaker 4: consider fascists. But they are a crop of conservatives that 1926 01:47:31,200 --> 01:47:35,559 Speaker 4: are that have the financial and social resources to be 1927 01:47:35,600 --> 01:47:39,599 Speaker 4: able to go across the country to this, to this 1928 01:47:39,760 --> 01:47:43,160 Speaker 4: big event to watch the soon to be ex president 1929 01:47:43,280 --> 01:47:47,840 Speaker 4: speak like they they have enough capital and sports to 1930 01:47:47,920 --> 01:47:51,640 Speaker 4: be able to do this, which is very different than 1931 01:47:51,680 --> 01:47:54,919 Speaker 4: a whole bunch of like broke punks writing on trains 1932 01:47:55,000 --> 01:47:57,519 Speaker 4: to go protests like halfway across the country like these 1933 01:47:57,640 --> 01:48:01,720 Speaker 4: these are two very different social factions, but yeah, it is. 1934 01:48:01,760 --> 01:48:02,040 Speaker 5: It is. 1935 01:48:02,080 --> 01:48:05,120 Speaker 4: It is a grouping of conservatives who are able to 1936 01:48:05,360 --> 01:48:10,240 Speaker 4: financially support going across the country to hear President Trump speak. 1937 01:48:10,520 --> 01:48:13,480 Speaker 4: And then in the moment you realize. 1938 01:48:13,160 --> 01:48:17,479 Speaker 1: Oh wow, where we can just go we're breaking into Congress. Yeah. Well, 1939 01:48:17,760 --> 01:48:19,479 Speaker 1: I think the thing I would say about that too 1940 01:48:19,600 --> 01:48:22,400 Speaker 1: is like like part of the process of what fascism 1941 01:48:22,520 --> 01:48:27,000 Speaker 1: is is turning those people from regular conservatives into into 1942 01:48:27,000 --> 01:48:30,639 Speaker 1: ground troops. Yeah yeah, yeah, and that's and that's what's 1943 01:48:30,640 --> 01:48:32,679 Speaker 1: happening here. But but there's a bunch of the left 1944 01:48:32,680 --> 01:48:36,920 Speaker 1: who like absolutely insist that this was really the working 1945 01:48:36,920 --> 01:48:40,760 Speaker 1: class because they are chronically incapable of distinguishing between a 1946 01:48:40,840 --> 01:48:45,599 Speaker 1: large group of white people and the working class. And 1947 01:48:45,720 --> 01:48:50,599 Speaker 1: these are the people. Okay, it's not good they keep 1948 01:48:50,640 --> 01:48:52,880 Speaker 1: doing this like they were. They were doing this with 1949 01:48:53,000 --> 01:48:56,599 Speaker 1: like a bunch of like like French anti vaxxers. Yeah, 1950 01:48:56,640 --> 01:48:58,240 Speaker 1: there's like a bunch of people who were convinced like 1951 01:48:58,479 --> 01:48:59,800 Speaker 1: and this is this is one of the everything we 1952 01:48:59,800 --> 01:49:01,960 Speaker 1: talk on this last episode, like these people support the 1953 01:49:02,000 --> 01:49:06,000 Speaker 1: Canadian trucker's convoy even though they're just right wingers. The 1954 01:49:06,040 --> 01:49:09,080 Speaker 1: other big example of this is the Belgian farmers protests. 1955 01:49:09,360 --> 01:49:12,120 Speaker 1: This is huge farm protests in Belgium that are like 1956 01:49:12,479 --> 01:49:14,639 Speaker 1: a very big car caused to left on the right, 1957 01:49:15,080 --> 01:49:17,760 Speaker 1: and literally the thing they are protesting about is that 1958 01:49:17,760 --> 01:49:20,639 Speaker 1: they're incredibly pissed off that there's environmental regulation to try 1959 01:49:20,640 --> 01:49:23,320 Speaker 1: to get them to not like dump fertilizer in the 1960 01:49:23,360 --> 01:49:25,960 Speaker 1: fucking rivers. It's like that's the kind of thing that 1961 01:49:25,960 --> 01:49:28,439 Speaker 1: they're mad about, Like they're mad about environmental regulation. They're 1962 01:49:28,479 --> 01:49:32,800 Speaker 1: mad about like like not being allowed to completely destroy 1963 01:49:32,840 --> 01:49:35,320 Speaker 1: the environment completely. But because it's like a large, massive people, 1964 01:49:35,360 --> 01:49:37,360 Speaker 1: there's all these people who are like, ah, it's the revolution. 1965 01:49:37,560 --> 01:49:41,839 Speaker 1: It's like no, these guys are like they're small business 1966 01:49:41,840 --> 01:49:43,360 Speaker 1: owners on farms. 1967 01:49:44,120 --> 01:49:47,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, ooh woo, small bean blah blah blah blah. 1968 01:49:47,160 --> 01:49:50,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. One of the products of this is this thing 1969 01:49:50,080 --> 01:49:53,320 Speaker 1: that becomes known as patriotic socialism. But first, do you 1970 01:49:53,360 --> 01:49:53,920 Speaker 1: know what else? 1971 01:49:54,040 --> 01:50:00,920 Speaker 4: Is a product all of the wonderful little snippet of 1972 01:50:01,680 --> 01:50:04,680 Speaker 4: important messages that it's about to flow right into your 1973 01:50:04,720 --> 01:50:07,719 Speaker 4: brain as you listen to these ads. 1974 01:50:08,120 --> 01:50:13,120 Speaker 1: We're back with patriotic socialism. So patriotic socialism is this 1975 01:50:13,200 --> 01:50:16,320 Speaker 1: thing that emerges in like I think like late. I 1976 01:50:16,320 --> 01:50:21,880 Speaker 1: think it's like early twenty twenty. I was too late. 1977 01:50:21,960 --> 01:50:23,439 Speaker 1: I'm obviously I was just gonna admit I was too 1978 01:50:23,520 --> 01:50:25,400 Speaker 1: lazy to go back and find the first time someone 1979 01:50:25,520 --> 01:50:26,360 Speaker 1: used the term. 1980 01:50:28,000 --> 01:50:31,280 Speaker 4: Socialist. You mean yeah, Yeah, I mean, I mean it's 1981 01:50:31,360 --> 01:50:34,320 Speaker 4: I mean, I'm sure those two words have been combined 1982 01:50:35,280 --> 01:50:36,000 Speaker 4: many times. 1983 01:50:36,200 --> 01:50:39,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, like in the modern context. Yeah, it's 1984 01:50:39,439 --> 01:50:42,200 Speaker 1: a thing from very like like twenty twenty. Basically is 1985 01:50:42,200 --> 01:50:42,439 Speaker 1: when it. 1986 01:50:42,520 --> 01:50:45,880 Speaker 4: Like, yes, this specific ideological strain that we'll be talking 1987 01:50:45,920 --> 01:50:48,679 Speaker 4: about emerges around twenty twenty. 1988 01:50:48,720 --> 01:50:52,920 Speaker 1: I think that's fair. Yeah, And it's so patriarch socialism. 1989 01:50:53,080 --> 01:50:55,720 Speaker 1: It combines all of the elements that we've talked about already, right, 1990 01:50:55,880 --> 01:50:57,720 Speaker 1: it takes the now she lives in, the homophobia, the 1991 01:50:57,720 --> 01:51:02,559 Speaker 1: support for capitalist economies. But then it makes one crucial move, 1992 01:51:02,640 --> 01:51:05,680 Speaker 1: which is it flips the direction of the nationalisms. So 1993 01:51:05,760 --> 01:51:09,880 Speaker 1: instead of being like hard line anti Americans, you're now 1994 01:51:10,160 --> 01:51:15,080 Speaker 1: like a hard line pro American nationalist, instead of being 1995 01:51:15,120 --> 01:51:15,719 Speaker 1: an anti. 1996 01:51:15,520 --> 01:51:20,680 Speaker 4: Imperialist who ignores the war crimes of China and Syria 1997 01:51:21,920 --> 01:51:26,920 Speaker 4: and blah blah blah blah Blahhia and r yeah obviously Russia. Instead, 1998 01:51:27,560 --> 01:51:29,200 Speaker 4: now America is the best. 1999 01:51:30,040 --> 01:51:33,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, like you know, and I mean their line basically 2000 01:51:33,600 --> 01:51:36,639 Speaker 1: they've adopted this from like an incredibly stupid line that 2001 01:51:36,680 --> 01:51:39,160 Speaker 1: the American Communist Party took on like the thirties, which 2002 01:51:39,200 --> 01:51:41,200 Speaker 1: was like, ah, the way we get a revolution in 2003 01:51:41,280 --> 01:51:44,960 Speaker 1: America is through American nationalism. So we're gonna like post 2004 01:51:45,000 --> 01:51:47,200 Speaker 1: pictures of us next to Abe Lincoln, and this is 2005 01:51:47,240 --> 01:51:51,200 Speaker 1: going to make people not hate us, you know. And 2006 01:51:51,240 --> 01:51:53,680 Speaker 1: you can tell how well this worked by tracking the 2007 01:51:53,800 --> 01:51:56,559 Speaker 1: number of people in the Communist Party as they adopt 2008 01:51:56,600 --> 01:51:59,000 Speaker 1: the strategy in the late thirties and seeing how it plummets. 2009 01:51:59,320 --> 01:52:03,479 Speaker 1: So you know, winning ideas great, great, great moves here. 2010 01:52:05,120 --> 01:52:10,080 Speaker 1: But okay, so the thing about patriotic socialism is that 2011 01:52:10,360 --> 01:52:15,920 Speaker 1: it never did that well because it sucks because you 2012 01:52:15,960 --> 01:52:18,760 Speaker 1: can't There was originally an attempt to pull in people 2013 01:52:18,800 --> 01:52:22,360 Speaker 1: from the left right, but everyone who looked at this 2014 01:52:22,560 --> 01:52:25,679 Speaker 1: was like this is lame and sucks, Like why would 2015 01:52:25,720 --> 01:52:26,880 Speaker 1: I want to get? Why would I want it? 2016 01:52:26,920 --> 01:52:27,000 Speaker 4: Like? 2017 01:52:27,040 --> 01:52:30,559 Speaker 1: Did these people suck? I don't like that they're weird 2018 01:52:30,600 --> 01:52:33,600 Speaker 1: American nationalists. Why would anyone be interested in this? And 2019 01:52:33,640 --> 01:52:35,960 Speaker 1: so what they were in So that didn't work very well. 2020 01:52:37,560 --> 01:52:40,320 Speaker 1: The thing they're mostly pulling from is this weird core 2021 01:52:40,400 --> 01:52:45,479 Speaker 1: of like Laruhites and these like very weird third positionist people. 2022 01:52:45,560 --> 01:52:47,439 Speaker 1: But there's just not that many of them. 2023 01:52:47,600 --> 01:52:50,160 Speaker 4: I mean, like they definitely the people that were there 2024 01:52:50,160 --> 01:52:52,400 Speaker 4: were pushing this as like an it's almost like a 2025 01:52:52,400 --> 01:52:55,680 Speaker 4: memetic ideology. In twenty twenty, there was there was some 2026 01:52:55,720 --> 01:52:58,480 Speaker 4: of them who were more kind of typical like Marxist Latinists, 2027 01:52:58,800 --> 01:53:02,160 Speaker 4: people who kind of orbited around, uh, the writers at 2028 01:53:02,160 --> 01:53:05,200 Speaker 4: grey Zone. Like we mentioned in the last episode, we 2029 01:53:05,240 --> 01:53:09,280 Speaker 4: had this one YouTuber named Peter Coffin. He was like 2030 01:53:09,920 --> 01:53:11,080 Speaker 4: like a Marxist YouTuber. 2031 01:53:11,439 --> 01:53:13,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, the guy guy is mostly as for kicking himself 2032 01:53:13,400 --> 01:53:14,599 Speaker 1: in the balls on Live TV. 2033 01:53:14,880 --> 01:53:16,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, well I think he was really one of the 2034 01:53:17,680 --> 01:53:23,120 Speaker 4: guys to kind of uh popularized patriotic socialism as as 2035 01:53:23,120 --> 01:53:25,360 Speaker 4: a term, even before people like Kinkle came onto the scene, 2036 01:53:25,400 --> 01:53:27,400 Speaker 4: which I assume will be getting to show. We'll get 2037 01:53:27,400 --> 01:53:29,560 Speaker 4: to that, yeah, but but yeah, it kind of it 2038 01:53:29,840 --> 01:53:32,679 Speaker 4: kind of circled around this like Caleb Moppin, Peter Coffin 2039 01:53:33,160 --> 01:53:36,960 Speaker 4: circle of these sorts of like content creators and writers 2040 01:53:36,960 --> 01:53:40,439 Speaker 4: who were really into like a classical Marxist theory. Yeah, 2041 01:53:40,479 --> 01:53:42,720 Speaker 4: but like not but I yeah, it's like but from 2042 01:53:42,760 --> 01:53:47,720 Speaker 4: they were from from very like statist yeah, American imperial aspective. 2043 01:53:47,920 --> 01:53:48,040 Speaker 5: Right. 2044 01:53:48,439 --> 01:53:51,280 Speaker 1: The thing is like they suck as theorist right like 2045 01:53:51,280 --> 01:53:53,800 Speaker 1: and this is this is like a one of the 2046 01:53:53,920 --> 01:53:55,920 Speaker 1: trends of these people that they're and this is why 2047 01:53:55,960 --> 01:53:58,080 Speaker 1: it doesn't take off because like one of the other guys, 2048 01:53:58,120 --> 01:54:00,000 Speaker 1: he's going to become like a maga communism guy later. 2049 01:54:00,080 --> 01:54:02,639 Speaker 1: Or is this a guy named Hawes or Infrared who 2050 01:54:03,600 --> 01:54:07,240 Speaker 1: he's like the big theory guy and stuff is unreader essentially, 2051 01:54:07,320 --> 01:54:09,800 Speaker 1: But yeah, he's like a twits streamers. He's stuff is 2052 01:54:09,840 --> 01:54:13,479 Speaker 1: completely unreadable, like it's nonsense, like to the point where 2053 01:54:13,520 --> 01:54:16,360 Speaker 1: even when this politics gets big and Hinkle tries to 2054 01:54:16,360 --> 01:54:18,600 Speaker 1: get people to read it, no one will fucking read it. 2055 01:54:18,640 --> 01:54:21,240 Speaker 1: His own followers won't read it because it's awful. 2056 01:54:21,080 --> 01:54:24,160 Speaker 4: I think between like, I don't think that this at 2057 01:54:24,240 --> 01:54:27,280 Speaker 4: least in my observations of this political subculture. The point 2058 01:54:27,320 --> 01:54:30,280 Speaker 4: is not to convert people to your politics, because there 2059 01:54:30,720 --> 01:54:34,560 Speaker 4: really isn't any core political essence of this thing. It's 2060 01:54:34,600 --> 01:54:37,040 Speaker 4: mostly a visual meme to get eyes on you. Because 2061 01:54:37,080 --> 01:54:40,000 Speaker 4: all these guys that are pushing this are all content creators. 2062 01:54:40,040 --> 01:54:43,440 Speaker 4: Like it's all a way just to boost your personal 2063 01:54:43,560 --> 01:54:46,160 Speaker 4: brand and to make people affiliate you with a personal 2064 01:54:46,200 --> 01:54:48,160 Speaker 4: brand like that. All the guys who are pushing this 2065 01:54:48,240 --> 01:54:50,280 Speaker 4: really hard, none of them were serious about any kind 2066 01:54:50,280 --> 01:54:53,160 Speaker 4: of political theory. Tied to this notion. They were all 2067 01:54:53,320 --> 01:54:57,680 Speaker 4: plugging their twitch stream, plugging their YouTube, their new book 2068 01:54:57,720 --> 01:55:00,200 Speaker 4: that's coming out, like all of it was just to 2069 01:55:00,440 --> 01:55:04,240 Speaker 4: sell content. I read on a lot of the guys 2070 01:55:04,240 --> 01:55:08,040 Speaker 4: that at least initially started pushing this thing as a 2071 01:55:08,040 --> 01:55:08,960 Speaker 4: as like a meme. 2072 01:55:09,720 --> 01:55:12,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, But I think the thing that's important about this too, though, 2073 01:55:12,320 --> 01:55:14,560 Speaker 1: is the original guys were fucking losers, Like this is 2074 01:55:14,560 --> 01:55:17,760 Speaker 1: why this didn't work. Sure, often, like Coffin starts doing 2075 01:55:17,760 --> 01:55:21,880 Speaker 1: this because his arigest previous seventeen grifts have all fallowed 2076 01:55:21,920 --> 01:55:25,959 Speaker 1: apart he was, He's been through, He's taken every conceivable 2077 01:55:26,040 --> 01:55:27,880 Speaker 1: leftist position and tried to make a brand around it, 2078 01:55:27,880 --> 01:55:29,480 Speaker 1: and it was just failing. Right, he just turned in 2079 01:55:29,520 --> 01:55:32,000 Speaker 1: to this. It doesn't work and like him and Moppin 2080 01:55:32,160 --> 01:55:34,160 Speaker 1: and like the other people in the space like are 2081 01:55:34,320 --> 01:55:38,240 Speaker 1: so unbelievably uncharismatic, and so it just doesn't work. The 2082 01:55:38,320 --> 01:55:40,880 Speaker 1: thing about this too, right, is like the reason it 2083 01:55:40,920 --> 01:55:43,760 Speaker 1: doesn't work partially because the people aren't charismatic, and partially 2084 01:55:43,800 --> 01:55:46,839 Speaker 1: it's because they really are obsessed with writing theory bullshit, 2085 01:55:47,000 --> 01:55:50,480 Speaker 1: like like yeah, like the theory betialty is completely incoherent, 2086 01:55:50,520 --> 01:55:53,160 Speaker 1: but they're like reading their theory on streams and shit, 2087 01:55:53,280 --> 01:55:57,040 Speaker 1: and like nobody likes that they need to produce some 2088 01:55:57,160 --> 01:56:02,000 Speaker 1: theory to make themselves feel legitimate. Yeah, but like husband's 2089 01:56:02,000 --> 01:56:04,120 Speaker 1: almost time they're fancy about Hagel. It's like, does anyone 2090 01:56:04,160 --> 01:56:05,800 Speaker 1: want to list Like no, Like. 2091 01:56:05,760 --> 01:56:07,720 Speaker 4: I mean, I I do like hearing about Hagel, but 2092 01:56:07,760 --> 01:56:11,880 Speaker 4: not from host. Yeah, but you know, like like he's 2093 01:56:11,960 --> 01:56:13,040 Speaker 4: like he's also yelling about how like there. 2094 01:56:13,000 --> 01:56:14,920 Speaker 1: Isn't a real left anymore because I'm like the far 2095 01:56:15,040 --> 01:56:19,040 Speaker 1: right people want align with Putin. But into this gap 2096 01:56:19,200 --> 01:56:27,440 Speaker 1: comes Jackson Hinkle. So Hinkle was just like a nobody. 2097 01:56:27,880 --> 01:56:30,720 Speaker 1: He was some random left Twitter person with like ten 2098 01:56:30,800 --> 01:56:34,400 Speaker 1: k followers. Yeah, like lost a city council race in 2099 01:56:34,400 --> 01:56:37,960 Speaker 1: to like he was like he was a joke. But 2100 01:56:38,080 --> 01:56:42,480 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty he starts to crack the formula, which 2101 01:56:42,480 --> 01:56:44,080 Speaker 1: is he figures out the same thing the gray Zone 2102 01:56:44,080 --> 01:56:45,920 Speaker 1: people do, which is that you can't pull from the 2103 01:56:46,000 --> 01:56:48,960 Speaker 1: left right. If you want to actually build a large 2104 01:56:48,960 --> 01:56:53,000 Speaker 1: scale brand, you have to pull from the right. And 2105 01:56:53,080 --> 01:56:55,440 Speaker 1: so he's one of the people who first gets really 2106 01:56:55,480 --> 01:56:58,560 Speaker 1: big into this thing called Maga communism, which is like 2107 01:56:59,160 --> 01:57:02,760 Speaker 1: kind of a it's like kind of a troll ideologies, 2108 01:57:02,800 --> 01:57:05,760 Speaker 1: like mostly a troll ideology, Like. 2109 01:57:05,680 --> 01:57:07,360 Speaker 4: It's yeah, yeah, it is, it is. 2110 01:57:07,440 --> 01:57:11,040 Speaker 1: It is meme based. Yeah. Basically, what they've done is 2111 01:57:11,080 --> 01:57:14,520 Speaker 1: like they've they've pulled together it's an attempt to build 2112 01:57:14,600 --> 01:57:18,720 Speaker 1: an ideology based on pure authoritarianism, Like it's based on 2113 01:57:19,000 --> 01:57:22,640 Speaker 1: like liking both Trump and CHIESI Ping and Putin at 2114 01:57:22,680 --> 01:57:25,200 Speaker 1: the same time, because all of them are powerful leaders 2115 01:57:25,240 --> 01:57:29,840 Speaker 1: who like want to restore their nation or whatever. And 2116 01:57:30,080 --> 01:57:31,960 Speaker 1: you know, but like the actual content of it is 2117 01:57:32,600 --> 01:57:35,480 Speaker 1: kind of nothing. But but what Hinkle does, and this 2118 01:57:35,520 --> 01:57:38,280 Speaker 1: is the thing he does that's very smart is that 2119 01:57:38,360 --> 01:57:41,920 Speaker 1: he's not an insufferable theory nerd. He's actually way less 2120 01:57:41,920 --> 01:57:46,120 Speaker 1: smart than Hawes. But because he's not smart, he kind 2121 01:57:46,160 --> 01:57:48,440 Speaker 1: of half stumbles and half figures out into how you 2122 01:57:48,480 --> 01:57:52,560 Speaker 1: make content for the right, which is just incredibly simple propaganda. 2123 01:57:52,720 --> 01:57:55,280 Speaker 1: Right You reach wheet write wing social media people. You 2124 01:57:55,360 --> 01:57:58,560 Speaker 1: make posts with very very simple slogans and like sentences 2125 01:57:58,600 --> 01:58:02,720 Speaker 1: with like words that don't go above two syllables, and 2126 01:58:03,040 --> 01:58:04,960 Speaker 1: you get You get in every single time a right 2127 01:58:05,000 --> 01:58:07,840 Speaker 1: wing grievance thing happens. You just get in and you 2128 01:58:08,040 --> 01:58:12,240 Speaker 1: just keep cranking out indescribable amounts of content every single day. 2129 01:58:12,800 --> 01:58:14,200 Speaker 1: He does this on his YouTube channel, he does this 2130 01:58:14,280 --> 01:58:17,280 Speaker 1: on his Twitter. He now has two point three million Twitter. 2131 01:58:17,040 --> 01:58:20,760 Speaker 4: Followers, most of which he has made in the past 2132 01:58:20,760 --> 01:58:21,440 Speaker 4: two months. 2133 01:58:21,760 --> 01:58:25,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And he was on you know, and he's 2134 01:58:25,080 --> 01:58:26,840 Speaker 1: now he's now taken like he's done one of these 2135 01:58:26,920 --> 01:58:29,840 Speaker 1: right wing media tours, like he's been on Carlson, He's 2136 01:58:29,840 --> 01:58:32,720 Speaker 1: been on fucking Info Wars, He's been on OEMs, the 2137 01:58:32,760 --> 01:58:36,240 Speaker 1: One American Network. And part of the reason this works 2138 01:58:36,280 --> 01:58:39,560 Speaker 1: is because right wingers love to find like a nominal 2139 01:58:39,640 --> 01:58:42,640 Speaker 1: leftists who agrees with them. And Hinkle, you know, he 2140 01:58:42,680 --> 01:58:44,640 Speaker 1: gets into argument with people sometimes, like when he was 2141 01:58:44,640 --> 01:58:47,080 Speaker 1: on Alex Jones, they're Alex Jones is like, what do 2142 01:58:47,120 --> 01:58:49,840 Speaker 1: you mean you're a communists? Like what the fuck? And 2143 01:58:50,040 --> 01:58:54,960 Speaker 1: Hinkle's putting out some bullshit about why Americ like communism 2144 01:58:55,400 --> 01:58:58,960 Speaker 1: is when no globalists, it's just. 2145 01:58:59,880 --> 01:59:03,720 Speaker 4: Like, in effect, they are doing a form of national 2146 01:59:03,800 --> 01:59:09,760 Speaker 4: socialism which relies which relies on anti Semitism and this 2147 01:59:09,960 --> 01:59:14,480 Speaker 4: notion of casting globalists as Jewish Zionists who are secretly 2148 01:59:14,520 --> 01:59:16,560 Speaker 4: controlling all of industry and We're going to give the 2149 01:59:16,600 --> 01:59:20,360 Speaker 4: real power back to the average regular working man which 2150 01:59:20,400 --> 01:59:22,680 Speaker 4: is it's it's he can frame it as communism, but 2151 01:59:22,720 --> 01:59:24,360 Speaker 4: like it is, it is it is just a form 2152 01:59:24,400 --> 01:59:27,360 Speaker 4: of Nazi theory. Like that is what he fundamentally operates on. 2153 01:59:27,600 --> 01:59:31,760 Speaker 1: And he's he's interesting because his she is he has 2154 01:59:31,800 --> 01:59:34,520 Speaker 1: gone you know, as as bad as the like transphobia 2155 01:59:34,560 --> 01:59:36,480 Speaker 1: stuff in last episode is right like that that is 2156 01:59:36,520 --> 01:59:40,840 Speaker 1: like an average like COVID grifter things he has. He 2157 01:59:40,920 --> 01:59:44,200 Speaker 1: has his own own share of transphobia as well. Yeah, 2158 01:59:44,240 --> 01:59:49,360 Speaker 1: well hekl is way further right than anyone who's ever 2159 01:59:49,400 --> 01:59:51,160 Speaker 1: come out of the left to like do this kind 2160 01:59:51,160 --> 01:59:55,920 Speaker 1: of thing has ever gone. He is like so there's 2161 01:59:55,960 --> 01:59:58,640 Speaker 1: a video of him arguing with a guy named sneak 2162 01:59:58,680 --> 02:00:02,080 Speaker 1: O and who I who just cover was just a 2163 02:00:02,120 --> 02:00:02,839 Speaker 1: twitch line. 2164 02:00:02,720 --> 02:00:05,480 Speaker 4: Is just as a twitch streamer who aligns himself with 2165 02:00:05,520 --> 02:00:09,040 Speaker 4: a whole bunch of kind of influencers for young usually 2166 02:00:09,080 --> 02:00:13,240 Speaker 4: white men. Like he's like, he's like close like Andrew Tate. 2167 02:00:13,520 --> 02:00:16,640 Speaker 4: It's it's it's just yeah, he's a fucking twitch influencer 2168 02:00:16,640 --> 02:00:22,160 Speaker 4: who courts unbelievable misogynist young man. That's the basic of it, 2169 02:00:22,240 --> 02:00:25,000 Speaker 4: you know, I mean, he he's he's kind of he's 2170 02:00:25,000 --> 02:00:27,120 Speaker 4: gone to the point where he's he's not quite in 2171 02:00:27,160 --> 02:00:29,920 Speaker 4: the same circles as Nick Flentes, but that's largely because 2172 02:00:30,000 --> 02:00:33,880 Speaker 4: Flentes is like a hardline Christian fascist, and Sneko's like, 2173 02:00:34,320 --> 02:00:36,200 Speaker 4: is like a Muslim fascist in the same wow like 2174 02:00:36,240 --> 02:00:38,560 Speaker 4: fat He's like, he's like a far right wing Muslim 2175 02:00:38,600 --> 02:00:41,560 Speaker 4: in the same Vein is like, I don't even I don't. 2176 02:00:41,560 --> 02:00:45,520 Speaker 4: I don't think Sneko is really id politically driven, like 2177 02:00:45,520 --> 02:00:48,760 Speaker 4: like like consciously so he's he's he's just a he's 2178 02:00:48,800 --> 02:00:51,880 Speaker 4: just an asshole who figured out that, hey, if you 2179 02:00:51,920 --> 02:00:55,560 Speaker 4: say certain things, you can get a twelve year employees 2180 02:00:55,920 --> 02:00:58,120 Speaker 4: to watch your stuff all the time. Like that's that's 2181 02:00:58,160 --> 02:01:01,840 Speaker 4: it's really, it's really the I think that the core of. 2182 02:01:01,080 --> 02:01:04,360 Speaker 1: Of of his of him, I hate politics. He sucks 2183 02:01:04,400 --> 02:01:07,840 Speaker 1: so much. But like so, Hinko goes on his show 2184 02:01:08,400 --> 02:01:11,680 Speaker 1: and he spends the entire show trying to convince Sneco 2185 02:01:11,680 --> 02:01:15,000 Speaker 1: that Hitler was gay and that the reason, and and 2186 02:01:15,080 --> 02:01:18,880 Speaker 1: Sneko's like, well, but Hitler destroyed the the Mangisrochwelt Institute 2187 02:01:18,880 --> 02:01:20,480 Speaker 1: for Sexual Research, And sneak Go's like, well that was 2188 02:01:20,520 --> 02:01:24,000 Speaker 1: a good thing. And Hinkel's response is no, no, no, 2189 02:01:24,160 --> 02:01:26,200 Speaker 1: all of the Nazis were gay in trans so they 2190 02:01:26,240 --> 02:01:28,600 Speaker 1: had to destroy the Institute of Sexual Research to cover 2191 02:01:28,760 --> 02:01:31,440 Speaker 1: up the fact, like to hide the evidence that they 2192 02:01:31,480 --> 02:01:34,760 Speaker 1: were all gay in trans Like this is a level 2193 02:01:35,000 --> 02:01:39,560 Speaker 1: of like homophobia and like transphobia that is like so 2194 02:01:39,760 --> 02:01:46,920 Speaker 1: far beyond the like normal shit that like and you know, 2195 02:01:47,000 --> 02:01:49,320 Speaker 1: and and and this, and like even Sneko is like 2196 02:01:49,440 --> 02:01:51,280 Speaker 1: what are you talking about? 2197 02:01:51,520 --> 02:01:54,400 Speaker 4: But I just can't take anything Hinkel says as like 2198 02:01:54,440 --> 02:01:55,760 Speaker 4: a literal thing he believes. 2199 02:01:56,320 --> 02:02:00,320 Speaker 1: He doesn't believe, he believes that everything. It's Yeah, he 2200 02:02:00,480 --> 02:02:04,000 Speaker 1: is the pure disillation of a man who believes in nothing. Yeah, 2201 02:02:04,280 --> 02:02:06,440 Speaker 1: Like like he is. She's not even a person, He's 2202 02:02:06,440 --> 02:02:10,280 Speaker 1: not even a human being. He is just a content mill. Yeah, 2203 02:02:10,400 --> 02:02:12,560 Speaker 1: That's that's all he is. He's just a brand. But 2204 02:02:13,040 --> 02:02:16,000 Speaker 1: what he's discovered, the way he's he's decided to build 2205 02:02:16,040 --> 02:02:19,920 Speaker 1: his brand is by basically out trying to he's doing. Okay, 2206 02:02:19,920 --> 02:02:21,640 Speaker 1: there was a there was a weird maga communism thing. 2207 02:02:21,640 --> 02:02:24,800 Speaker 1: He does that less now because it's outlived usefulness and 2208 02:02:24,800 --> 02:02:27,680 Speaker 1: a lot of this now it's now it's easier to 2209 02:02:27,720 --> 02:02:33,879 Speaker 1: be a a Palestine. Uh Yeah, like and quote unquote 2210 02:02:34,000 --> 02:02:39,800 Speaker 1: Anti's Zionist influencer. In reality, he just is extremely anti Semitic. 2211 02:02:39,880 --> 02:02:42,680 Speaker 1: Like this is yes, that is his actual politics. Yeah, 2212 02:02:43,120 --> 02:02:46,480 Speaker 1: let's talk about well okay, she's like it's genuinely unclear 2213 02:02:46,560 --> 02:02:51,720 Speaker 1: to me whether he personally is really anti Semitic, Like 2214 02:02:51,920 --> 02:02:54,680 Speaker 1: I don't know he might be. I mean, like it 2215 02:02:54,720 --> 02:02:57,160 Speaker 1: doesn't matter. Like that's the thing, Like he's. 2216 02:02:57,000 --> 02:02:59,080 Speaker 4: The way that he talks about it, the way oh yeah, 2217 02:02:59,120 --> 02:03:02,800 Speaker 4: he talks about how how how Zionists like rule the world. 2218 02:03:02,840 --> 02:03:06,280 Speaker 1: It's it's, it's it's you can just like that Intel 2219 02:03:06,320 --> 02:03:09,880 Speaker 1: Protocols of the Elders. Yeah, so this is the thing 2220 02:03:09,920 --> 02:03:14,120 Speaker 1: like like Hinkle, Hinkle is not really at this point, 2221 02:03:14,320 --> 02:03:17,560 Speaker 1: like they're like there there, there is no person behind it, right, 2222 02:03:17,640 --> 02:03:21,520 Speaker 1: He's just purely a right wing mill that regurgitates stuff 2223 02:03:21,800 --> 02:03:23,640 Speaker 1: and the stuff. And then the way that he figured 2224 02:03:23,640 --> 02:03:26,240 Speaker 1: out you could do this is by trying to outflank 2225 02:03:26,840 --> 02:03:30,040 Speaker 1: the traditional hard right on anti Semitism. So let's let's 2226 02:03:30,080 --> 02:03:32,320 Speaker 1: let's let's take a look at like exactly the kind 2227 02:03:32,360 --> 02:03:34,440 Speaker 1: of anti Semitic ship that he's on, because he is 2228 02:03:34,640 --> 02:03:37,080 Speaker 1: just straight up an anti Semite. Right, this is not 2229 02:03:37,200 --> 02:03:40,040 Speaker 1: a like think I'm saying because of the Palaside stuff, 2230 02:03:40,720 --> 02:03:44,040 Speaker 1: so grant the Like last week the trailer for Grand 2231 02:03:44,080 --> 02:03:47,040 Speaker 1: Theft Auto six came out. Yeah, and there's like a 2232 02:03:47,080 --> 02:03:49,120 Speaker 1: bunch of women tworking in it and like having a 2233 02:03:49,120 --> 02:03:51,680 Speaker 1: good time and like wearing bikinis and stuff, and there's 2234 02:03:51,800 --> 02:03:58,080 Speaker 1: like this enormous, like really weird, incredibly pathetic right wing 2235 02:03:58,960 --> 02:04:01,760 Speaker 1: like thing about it, saying that it's like anti Christian 2236 02:04:01,840 --> 02:04:04,360 Speaker 1: and it's like spreading porn to children and teaching people 2237 02:04:04,400 --> 02:04:06,680 Speaker 1: to do crimes, and that like shooting cops is bad 2238 02:04:06,720 --> 02:04:09,240 Speaker 1: and no one should ever play it. And because this 2239 02:04:09,320 --> 02:04:11,600 Speaker 1: is like the current right wing media panic, Hinkle starts 2240 02:04:11,600 --> 02:04:15,000 Speaker 1: tweeting about it, and his tweet is, so this starts 2241 02:04:15,000 --> 02:04:17,040 Speaker 1: with an Israeli flag, and it starts with like that 2242 02:04:17,200 --> 02:04:19,520 Speaker 1: like siren thing that people post when they're about to 2243 02:04:19,560 --> 02:04:24,800 Speaker 1: do an alert quote, why are the Zionists all capitalized 2244 02:04:25,200 --> 02:04:29,000 Speaker 1: at Rockstar Games releasing this all caps sexualized video game 2245 02:04:29,040 --> 02:04:33,400 Speaker 1: for children in America? Get hashtag ban GTA six. This 2246 02:04:33,440 --> 02:04:37,160 Speaker 1: is also in all caps trending right now. So this 2247 02:04:37,480 --> 02:04:40,160 Speaker 1: is straight up neo Nazi shit, right, This is neo 2248 02:04:40,200 --> 02:04:45,520 Speaker 1: Nazi shit about the Jews, conspiracy right, Like that's yeah, yeah, 2249 02:04:45,880 --> 02:04:47,480 Speaker 1: it's like this is a right of neo Nazi shit. 2250 02:04:47,760 --> 02:04:50,080 Speaker 1: And he's been trying to use the fact that he 2251 02:04:50,240 --> 02:04:53,480 Speaker 1: is more anti Semitic than openly anti semitic, even than 2252 02:04:53,560 --> 02:04:57,240 Speaker 1: so even than someone like Elon Musk, right sure, and 2253 02:04:57,280 --> 02:04:59,200 Speaker 1: he's been trying to use this as a way to 2254 02:04:59,400 --> 02:05:04,680 Speaker 1: basically to o their bases. So like two days ago 2255 02:05:04,720 --> 02:05:07,720 Speaker 1: when this goes up three uh really recently there was 2256 02:05:07,800 --> 02:05:10,680 Speaker 1: this giant like call, like there's this giant like Twitter 2257 02:05:10,760 --> 02:05:13,200 Speaker 1: space thing that had Alex Jones, Elon Musk, Andrew Trey 2258 02:05:13,320 --> 02:05:16,720 Speaker 1: and Vivik Ramaswami in it, and Hinkle just like keeps 2259 02:05:16,800 --> 02:05:19,400 Speaker 1: asking Elon Musk about whether he's gonna turn on the 2260 02:05:19,400 --> 02:05:22,240 Speaker 1: starlink like internet stuff or Palestine, and these people basically 2261 02:05:22,240 --> 02:05:23,800 Speaker 1: tell him to shut up and like kick him off. 2262 02:05:25,200 --> 02:05:27,040 Speaker 1: But then he does that. He starts doing this like 2263 02:05:27,120 --> 02:05:30,160 Speaker 1: giant like I've been censored like media thing about it. 2264 02:05:30,320 --> 02:05:31,600 Speaker 1: And what he's doing here, this is the thing he 2265 02:05:31,640 --> 02:05:35,560 Speaker 1: does constantly. He's trying to take the basis from people 2266 02:05:35,600 --> 02:05:37,600 Speaker 1: like Alex Jones, people like Elon Musk, people of Manedu 2267 02:05:37,680 --> 02:05:41,960 Speaker 1: Tate who wants more open anti Semitism, right like these 2268 02:05:42,000 --> 02:05:44,360 Speaker 1: people are anti He's trying to flank them. 2269 02:05:44,400 --> 02:05:46,200 Speaker 4: You can say, quote unquote from the right, but like 2270 02:05:46,240 --> 02:05:48,680 Speaker 4: at this point the right less spectrum kind of resolves 2271 02:05:48,720 --> 02:05:50,840 Speaker 4: into meaningless uh mambo jumbo. 2272 02:05:50,960 --> 02:05:52,560 Speaker 1: But yeah, he's trying to He's I mean, he's just 2273 02:05:52,600 --> 02:05:54,360 Speaker 1: a fascist, right, He's he's trying to he's trying to 2274 02:05:54,360 --> 02:05:59,320 Speaker 1: play like the anti Semite flame from the anti Semitics thing. Yes, yeah, 2275 02:05:59,480 --> 02:06:02,800 Speaker 1: and you know, and but but he's he's figured out. 2276 02:06:02,960 --> 02:06:05,480 Speaker 1: This is the thing that actually pushed him really into 2277 02:06:05,520 --> 02:06:08,400 Speaker 1: the mainstream. Is he figured out a way to do 2278 02:06:08,480 --> 02:06:10,840 Speaker 1: cover for this that also lets him get a bunch 2279 02:06:10,880 --> 02:06:13,960 Speaker 1: of like attention and clicks and stuff from the left, 2280 02:06:14,800 --> 02:06:18,320 Speaker 1: which is and also like a lot of support from Palestinians. 2281 02:06:18,440 --> 02:06:20,800 Speaker 1: And we're going to talk about that in a second. 2282 02:06:20,800 --> 02:06:23,600 Speaker 4: People who don't understand who he actually is, or maybe 2283 02:06:23,640 --> 02:06:25,560 Speaker 4: if they do, they just don't really care because because 2284 02:06:25,600 --> 02:06:31,200 Speaker 4: it doesn't affect them, Because he is currently possibly the 2285 02:06:31,240 --> 02:06:35,720 Speaker 4: most influential person talking about this conflict right now, like 2286 02:06:35,720 --> 02:06:39,200 Speaker 4: like at least on the internet, like his his his 2287 02:06:39,280 --> 02:06:43,520 Speaker 4: impressions is larger than anyone else. His tweets get read 2288 02:06:43,600 --> 02:06:46,840 Speaker 4: aloud in newsrooms across across the country. Like he is 2289 02:06:47,200 --> 02:06:50,880 Speaker 4: he has succeeded in grifting off of off of this 2290 02:06:51,040 --> 02:06:55,720 Speaker 4: conflict to promote his personal brand in almost an almost 2291 02:06:55,800 --> 02:06:58,440 Speaker 4: unparalleled way. Like there's never been someone who's done this 2292 02:06:58,480 --> 02:07:01,200 Speaker 4: as successfully as Hin called us for any other conflict. 2293 02:07:01,360 --> 02:07:05,640 Speaker 4: It is, it is. It is quite quite quite surprising 2294 02:07:05,680 --> 02:07:08,640 Speaker 4: that there's just this one guy sitting in sitting in 2295 02:07:08,760 --> 02:07:12,400 Speaker 4: on his phone in America has has been this successful 2296 02:07:12,640 --> 02:07:14,600 Speaker 4: by essentially just tweeting NonStop. 2297 02:07:17,080 --> 02:07:19,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, like to put this in perspective, so like he 2298 02:07:19,240 --> 02:07:21,400 Speaker 1: has Alex Jones got banned and that kind of like 2299 02:07:21,480 --> 02:07:23,880 Speaker 1: limited his coverage, but he has more followers on Twitter 2300 02:07:23,920 --> 02:07:25,560 Speaker 1: of Alex Jones. Alex Jones has just been on band 2301 02:07:25,600 --> 02:07:27,920 Speaker 1: from Twitter, Like he has more followers at Alex Jones. 2302 02:07:27,960 --> 02:07:32,120 Speaker 1: Like that's that's how And it's not even just followers too, 2303 02:07:32,160 --> 02:07:35,880 Speaker 1: it's it's how much his posts are seen and circulated 2304 02:07:35,920 --> 02:07:37,960 Speaker 1: like he yeah, there was. He was for almost I 2305 02:07:38,000 --> 02:07:40,160 Speaker 1: think the most of the month of October, he was 2306 02:07:40,480 --> 02:07:44,320 Speaker 1: person with the highest digital impressions on the platform like 2307 02:07:44,360 --> 02:07:46,920 Speaker 1: he he yea, his stuff was being seen by more 2308 02:07:46,960 --> 02:07:50,200 Speaker 1: people than anyone else, like he yeah, So let's let's 2309 02:07:50,200 --> 02:07:53,000 Speaker 1: talk about what that stuff actually is. It's large, It's 2310 02:07:53,000 --> 02:07:56,080 Speaker 1: like it's a combination of him just retweeting other people, 2311 02:07:56,160 --> 02:07:59,560 Speaker 1: stealing other people's like videos of like press conferences from 2312 02:07:59,600 --> 02:08:03,120 Speaker 1: a coma. Most of it is dead babies, like it's 2313 02:08:03,120 --> 02:08:04,720 Speaker 1: a bunch, it's a bunch of dead babies, it's a 2314 02:08:04,760 --> 02:08:07,280 Speaker 1: bunch of dead Palestinians, just over and over and over 2315 02:08:07,320 --> 02:08:10,440 Speaker 1: and over again. And then sometimes tweets of like ceasefire, 2316 02:08:10,640 --> 02:08:11,960 Speaker 1: like how could the Zionists do this? 2317 02:08:13,640 --> 02:08:18,920 Speaker 4: One about misinformations, characterizing attacks events, like a lot of 2318 02:08:18,960 --> 02:08:20,200 Speaker 4: others basic stuff. 2319 02:08:20,000 --> 02:08:22,240 Speaker 1: Like it's yeah, and one of one of his tricks 2320 02:08:22,240 --> 02:08:23,560 Speaker 1: and that this is this has been a thing for 2321 02:08:23,600 --> 02:08:25,640 Speaker 1: these kinds of like these Marginalonist people for a long time, 2322 02:08:25,880 --> 02:08:29,040 Speaker 1: is spreading spreading pictures that are actually from the Serians 2323 02:08:29,040 --> 02:08:32,000 Speaker 1: civil war, yes, features from Palestine, which they do constantly, 2324 02:08:32,920 --> 02:08:35,040 Speaker 1: and this, you know, and like one of the things 2325 02:08:35,080 --> 02:08:36,400 Speaker 1: that we haven't sort of toushed on yet is like 2326 02:08:36,480 --> 02:08:39,320 Speaker 1: yet he so one of the things that's happened with 2327 02:08:39,400 --> 02:08:41,800 Speaker 1: him is because he's the biggest person tweeting about Palestine. 2328 02:08:42,400 --> 02:08:44,760 Speaker 1: His like a lot of his tweets about Palestine are 2329 02:08:44,800 --> 02:08:47,600 Speaker 1: translated into Arabic and they're posted all over like Arabic 2330 02:08:47,640 --> 02:08:50,400 Speaker 1: Instagram of Arabic Twitter, Like it's like they're they're spent 2331 02:08:50,480 --> 02:08:54,720 Speaker 1: fucking everywhere. And those people, you know, either like don't 2332 02:08:54,800 --> 02:08:59,560 Speaker 1: know who he is, right, because they're only seeing him 2333 02:09:00,080 --> 02:09:04,160 Speaker 1: Palestine stuff, right, They're not seeing his like raving about 2334 02:09:04,480 --> 02:09:08,920 Speaker 1: how GTA six is anti Christian, right, They're only seeing 2335 02:09:09,240 --> 02:09:13,560 Speaker 1: that stuff. And this has made his work enormously more 2336 02:09:13,600 --> 02:09:18,800 Speaker 1: popular than actual Palestinian journalists and intellectuals. And this is 2337 02:09:18,840 --> 02:09:21,040 Speaker 1: one of the really grim parts about this, which is 2338 02:09:21,080 --> 02:09:27,440 Speaker 1: that you know, those those Palestinian journalists are just getting 2339 02:09:27,480 --> 02:09:30,320 Speaker 1: fucking killed all the time, Like every single day, another 2340 02:09:30,360 --> 02:09:34,360 Speaker 1: Palestinian journalist gets fucking killed, Like more and more Palestinian 2341 02:09:34,400 --> 02:09:37,280 Speaker 1: intellectuals are killed. And as these people die and Hinkle 2342 02:09:37,360 --> 02:09:40,800 Speaker 1: exploits their deaths for more fucking content, the number of 2343 02:09:40,840 --> 02:09:44,120 Speaker 1: people talking about this with any kind of platform shrinks 2344 02:09:44,160 --> 02:09:47,000 Speaker 1: and shrinks and shrinks. And he's been able to fill 2345 02:09:47,040 --> 02:09:49,920 Speaker 1: the void left by the fact that the Israelis have 2346 02:09:50,040 --> 02:09:53,640 Speaker 1: been fucking murdering all these journalists with just his own 2347 02:09:53,680 --> 02:09:59,040 Speaker 1: fucking grifting brands. And he's able to do this because 2348 02:09:59,360 --> 02:10:04,440 Speaker 1: you know, Kinkle is incredibly safe, just fucking living it 2349 02:10:04,560 --> 02:10:07,839 Speaker 1: up in the US while the people who's suffering, he's exploiting, 2350 02:10:07,880 --> 02:10:10,280 Speaker 1: are getting fucking murdered in the streets. 2351 02:10:10,160 --> 02:10:11,920 Speaker 4: And he's making tons of money doing this. 2352 02:10:12,280 --> 02:10:18,280 Speaker 1: Enormous amounts of money. Yeah, and I don't know, I 2353 02:10:18,280 --> 02:10:21,280 Speaker 1: don't I don't really have I don't have a fucking 2354 02:10:21,280 --> 02:10:25,280 Speaker 1: solution to this. Like he's he's effectively just figured out 2355 02:10:25,640 --> 02:10:28,520 Speaker 1: how to completely game this system in a way that 2356 02:10:28,560 --> 02:10:29,800 Speaker 1: hasn't been done before. 2357 02:10:30,560 --> 02:10:32,720 Speaker 4: I think part of this is like with the way 2358 02:10:32,840 --> 02:10:35,960 Speaker 4: Twitter's content moderation is working now, Gore can we spread 2359 02:10:35,960 --> 02:10:38,160 Speaker 4: around in ways that it didn't used to, which is 2360 02:10:38,200 --> 02:10:40,280 Speaker 4: a lot more emotionally gripping for a lot of people. 2361 02:10:41,120 --> 02:10:43,960 Speaker 4: So he's able to to do a whole buntu quote 2362 02:10:43,960 --> 02:10:47,120 Speaker 4: teet quote tweets on extremely graphic and upsetting images which 2363 02:10:47,600 --> 02:10:50,840 Speaker 4: draw more people to his platform. He's he's he's just 2364 02:10:51,040 --> 02:10:53,480 Speaker 4: like figured out a specific thing, like he's he's been 2365 02:10:53,480 --> 02:10:55,280 Speaker 4: trying to do this for a few years with very 2366 02:10:55,360 --> 02:10:58,360 Speaker 4: with various types of like you know, conflicts or like 2367 02:10:58,440 --> 02:11:01,520 Speaker 4: little little like bits that he he like tries to 2368 02:11:02,080 --> 02:11:04,800 Speaker 4: tries to do this media strategy thing on and this 2369 02:11:04,800 --> 02:11:06,440 Speaker 4: this one has happened to work. There there was there 2370 02:11:06,480 --> 02:11:11,400 Speaker 4: was a certain confluence of events that allowed him to 2371 02:11:11,400 --> 02:11:16,440 Speaker 4: to get get platformed by many, many, many unwitting people, 2372 02:11:17,320 --> 02:11:20,000 Speaker 4: and at this point, deplatforming is not even an option, 2373 02:11:20,080 --> 02:11:23,480 Speaker 4: Like it's it's like, you can't you can't deplatform someone 2374 02:11:23,520 --> 02:11:26,960 Speaker 4: with three million followers. Really, just that just isn't that 2375 02:11:27,120 --> 02:11:29,840 Speaker 4: He's strategy and it too, like yeah, yeah, it just 2376 02:11:29,920 --> 02:11:32,440 Speaker 4: it just that's right, It just doesn't even follow anymore. 2377 02:11:33,840 --> 02:11:35,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess, I guess. One last thing I want 2378 02:11:35,880 --> 02:11:38,520 Speaker 1: to say about this is like, and he's he's been 2379 02:11:38,600 --> 02:11:43,840 Speaker 1: incredibly successful at leveraging, like at leveraging the fact that 2380 02:11:43,840 --> 02:11:46,840 Speaker 1: he posts not not even good pro pales sign content, 2381 02:11:46,920 --> 02:11:51,880 Speaker 1: right sucks ass right, it's but he's been incredibly successful 2382 02:11:52,000 --> 02:11:54,840 Speaker 1: leveraging that to use his defense against any claims of 2383 02:11:54,840 --> 02:12:00,000 Speaker 1: anti Semitism. And this sucks because he's, you know, he's 2384 02:12:00,080 --> 02:12:03,440 Speaker 1: he's effectively using he's using Palestinians as a human shield 2385 02:12:03,960 --> 02:12:06,440 Speaker 1: and then fucking climbing over their corpses in order to 2386 02:12:06,440 --> 02:12:07,080 Speaker 1: build a brand. 2387 02:12:08,040 --> 02:12:11,160 Speaker 4: While that also complaining about the degeneracy of seeing a 2388 02:12:11,160 --> 02:12:14,120 Speaker 4: whole bunch of non white people having a beach party 2389 02:12:14,120 --> 02:12:16,320 Speaker 4: in GTA five, right, Like it's like, it's not like 2390 02:12:16,360 --> 02:12:19,920 Speaker 4: he actually cares about the lives of Palestinians being killed 2391 02:12:19,920 --> 02:12:23,080 Speaker 4: because he's complaining about black people in GTA five. Like 2392 02:12:23,080 --> 02:12:25,240 Speaker 4: it's not like, come on, like it's it's he is. 2393 02:12:25,960 --> 02:12:27,879 Speaker 4: He's just an anti Semitic fascist. 2394 02:12:27,920 --> 02:12:28,320 Speaker 7: This is y. 2395 02:12:28,520 --> 02:12:31,920 Speaker 1: This is very very clear. I think I think the 2396 02:12:31,960 --> 02:12:36,280 Speaker 1: thing that can be done is, like we need to 2397 02:12:36,800 --> 02:12:40,000 Speaker 1: like these people can't be allowed to fucking get their 2398 02:12:40,040 --> 02:12:43,000 Speaker 1: start here, Like we can't be having a bunch of 2399 02:12:43,040 --> 02:12:46,120 Speaker 1: fucking transphobes and anti Semits. We can't be having all 2400 02:12:46,160 --> 02:12:49,960 Speaker 1: of these fucking homophobic right wing nationalists like in leftist basis, 2401 02:12:50,000 --> 02:12:54,160 Speaker 1: they just like they can't be here because if if 2402 02:12:54,160 --> 02:12:57,520 Speaker 1: there had actually been you know, a kind of sustained 2403 02:12:57,520 --> 02:13:00,440 Speaker 1: effort to get these people fucking out before before they 2404 02:13:00,480 --> 02:13:02,640 Speaker 1: pulled all of this shit, we wouldn't be here right now. 2405 02:13:03,360 --> 02:13:07,480 Speaker 1: But that wasn't done. Were people were just completely okay 2406 02:13:07,520 --> 02:13:10,600 Speaker 1: with having all of these right wingers just being there 2407 02:13:10,600 --> 02:13:13,480 Speaker 1: because they supported the same states that they do, and 2408 02:13:14,000 --> 02:13:15,320 Speaker 1: because of that we're here. 2409 02:13:16,040 --> 02:13:18,120 Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, I really only see that on like 2410 02:13:18,720 --> 02:13:22,720 Speaker 4: the heavily communist and statist contingent of the left right, 2411 02:13:22,760 --> 02:13:25,600 Speaker 4: Like these types of people aren't super popular among most 2412 02:13:25,640 --> 02:13:30,360 Speaker 4: like social democrats at least recently, there's been kind of 2413 02:13:30,560 --> 02:13:35,760 Speaker 4: a harder divide, at least from my observation between like 2414 02:13:35,920 --> 02:13:40,560 Speaker 4: SoC dems, between like socialists libertarian socialists, and the people 2415 02:13:40,560 --> 02:13:44,920 Speaker 4: who are like hardlined. I am a Marxist Leninist. I 2416 02:13:44,960 --> 02:13:48,760 Speaker 4: am affiliated with these Marxi Leninist organizations, and those are 2417 02:13:48,800 --> 02:13:51,200 Speaker 4: the sorts of organizations that these sorts of guys kind 2418 02:13:51,200 --> 02:13:54,240 Speaker 4: of almost like prey on to like gain followers and 2419 02:13:54,280 --> 02:13:55,160 Speaker 4: gain some poy. 2420 02:13:54,960 --> 02:13:56,440 Speaker 1: Well, and I would say this, like, this is like 2421 02:13:56,480 --> 02:13:59,400 Speaker 1: those groups like like the PSL for examples, PSL is 2422 02:13:59,440 --> 02:14:01,480 Speaker 1: what example shores right, And like they also have a 2423 02:14:01,640 --> 02:14:04,240 Speaker 1: there's a whole bunch of horror stories about them chasing 2424 02:14:04,280 --> 02:14:08,160 Speaker 1: down abusers. Like I know people who they liked a 2425 02:14:08,200 --> 02:14:12,280 Speaker 1: tweet that was talking about how the PSL had had 2426 02:14:12,320 --> 02:14:16,120 Speaker 1: fucked up a a sexual assault investigation and they were 2427 02:14:16,240 --> 02:14:18,320 Speaker 1: dragged because they had liked to tweet about this. They 2428 02:14:18,320 --> 02:14:20,880 Speaker 1: were dragged in front of the PSL Central Committee where 2429 02:14:20,920 --> 02:14:24,840 Speaker 1: Gloria Rivera, they're fucking like eternal presidential candidates started doing 2430 02:14:24,880 --> 02:14:27,560 Speaker 1: a bunch of fucking transphobia shit and then covering it 2431 02:14:27,600 --> 02:14:30,240 Speaker 1: with the exact same gray zone, Like I'm a woman 2432 02:14:30,280 --> 02:14:33,400 Speaker 1: of color, thing, you know, but these groups were like 2433 02:14:33,520 --> 02:14:35,960 Speaker 1: on they were on the edge of colla like basically 2434 02:14:36,000 --> 02:14:38,720 Speaker 1: becoming a non relevant because they've been supporting Russia during 2435 02:14:38,720 --> 02:14:40,240 Speaker 1: the war in Ukraine for this whole time. But then 2436 02:14:40,320 --> 02:14:43,800 Speaker 1: Palestine exactly is the one issue they're actually like, is 2437 02:14:43,840 --> 02:14:47,960 Speaker 1: the one issue that their stance is like, you know, 2438 02:14:48,120 --> 02:14:50,520 Speaker 1: tolerable to the general populace on it. So they've all 2439 02:14:50,640 --> 02:14:52,560 Speaker 1: all of these people have been using Palestine, even all 2440 02:14:52,880 --> 02:14:56,200 Speaker 1: these people who've been fucking pivoting harder, harder and harder 2441 02:14:56,320 --> 02:14:58,280 Speaker 1: right for years and years and years now have been 2442 02:14:58,400 --> 02:15:02,240 Speaker 1: have like have I've been exploiting the exploiting the fucking 2443 02:15:02,240 --> 02:15:06,000 Speaker 1: genocide and Palestine in order to fucking get all their 2444 02:15:06,040 --> 02:15:11,840 Speaker 1: leftist clicks back. And it's utterly grotesque. Yeah, that's that's 2445 02:15:11,880 --> 02:15:13,080 Speaker 1: That's what I've got about this. 2446 02:15:14,080 --> 02:15:15,959 Speaker 4: It is. It is certainly upsetting. 2447 02:15:16,320 --> 02:15:18,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, free Palestine, Fuck the grifters. 2448 02:15:34,120 --> 02:15:39,640 Speaker 6: Hello, welcome to it could happen here today. My episode 2449 02:15:39,720 --> 02:15:44,040 Speaker 6: is going to be a bit more philosophical. I love 2450 02:15:44,120 --> 02:15:47,040 Speaker 6: me some philosophy. I don't always understand it, but I 2451 02:15:47,040 --> 02:15:50,280 Speaker 6: do like it. And I read something recently that really 2452 02:15:50,280 --> 02:15:53,240 Speaker 6: stuck with me, especially in the context of what is 2453 02:15:53,280 --> 02:15:56,880 Speaker 6: currently going on right now in Palestine and the genocide 2454 02:15:56,920 --> 02:16:00,360 Speaker 6: and Gaza. I read something and I couldn't stop thinking it, 2455 02:16:00,400 --> 02:16:03,240 Speaker 6: so I thought, let's just make an episode. So today 2456 02:16:03,320 --> 02:16:07,920 Speaker 6: I wanted to talk about this word I learned called grievability. 2457 02:16:08,920 --> 02:16:12,640 Speaker 6: It was coined by Judith Butler in this blog post 2458 02:16:12,640 --> 02:16:16,200 Speaker 6: from twenty fifteen, when Butler is asking the question when 2459 02:16:16,360 --> 02:16:20,600 Speaker 6: is life grievable? In twenty sixteen, Butler wrote a book 2460 02:16:20,680 --> 02:16:24,120 Speaker 6: called Frames of War. When is Life Grievable? And this 2461 02:16:24,200 --> 02:16:27,240 Speaker 6: is a quote from this book. One way of posing 2462 02:16:27,320 --> 02:16:30,120 Speaker 6: the question of who we are in these times of 2463 02:16:30,200 --> 02:16:34,200 Speaker 6: war is by asking whose lives are considered valuable, whose 2464 02:16:34,280 --> 02:16:38,680 Speaker 6: lives are mourned, and whose lives are considered ungrievable. We 2465 02:16:38,800 --> 02:16:41,600 Speaker 6: might think of war as dividing populations into those who 2466 02:16:41,640 --> 02:16:45,440 Speaker 6: are grievable in those who are not. An ungrievable life 2467 02:16:45,480 --> 02:16:48,640 Speaker 6: is one that cannot be mourned because it has never lived, 2468 02:16:49,360 --> 02:16:52,440 Speaker 6: That is, it has never counted as a life at all. 2469 02:16:53,640 --> 02:16:56,520 Speaker 6: We can see the division of the globe into grievable 2470 02:16:56,560 --> 02:17:00,000 Speaker 6: and ungrievable lives from the perspective of those who weigh 2471 02:17:00,280 --> 02:17:03,680 Speaker 6: war in order to defend the lives of certain communities, 2472 02:17:03,760 --> 02:17:06,840 Speaker 6: and to defend them against the lives of others, even 2473 02:17:06,879 --> 02:17:11,360 Speaker 6: if it means taking those latter lives. So that quote 2474 02:17:11,400 --> 02:17:15,720 Speaker 6: kind of encompasses the idea of grievability. I really just 2475 02:17:15,760 --> 02:17:19,000 Speaker 6: thought it was poignant to talk about and relevant because 2476 02:17:19,720 --> 02:17:23,320 Speaker 6: we are being inundated with all these numbers every day 2477 02:17:23,440 --> 02:17:28,600 Speaker 6: of casualties and death counts and collateral damage. And people 2478 02:17:28,640 --> 02:17:31,800 Speaker 6: accept these things because it's part of being human. It's 2479 02:17:31,840 --> 02:17:34,879 Speaker 6: just the way war is. But I really don't think 2480 02:17:35,040 --> 02:17:37,440 Speaker 6: we should accept that as the reality. I think that 2481 02:17:37,480 --> 02:17:40,600 Speaker 6: makes us callous. And I think accepting human death, no 2482 02:17:40,680 --> 02:17:45,000 Speaker 6: matter in what context, is a little bit inhuman And 2483 02:17:45,040 --> 02:17:47,440 Speaker 6: so I think maybe that's why this concept fascinated me, 2484 02:17:47,560 --> 02:17:53,240 Speaker 6: because tying grief to the concept of being alive, it 2485 02:17:53,280 --> 02:17:56,840 Speaker 6: truly is indicative of if that life is worth something 2486 02:17:56,920 --> 02:18:00,120 Speaker 6: to you or to the world. And so we're reading 2487 02:18:00,160 --> 02:18:02,560 Speaker 6: and hearing about all these lives lost, and we're giving 2488 02:18:02,600 --> 02:18:06,400 Speaker 6: these numbers and stories, and these numbers are repeated every day, 2489 02:18:06,480 --> 02:18:09,760 Speaker 6: and they increase every day, and this repetition seems endless 2490 02:18:10,000 --> 02:18:13,360 Speaker 6: and impossible to change. And Butler is saying that we 2491 02:18:13,400 --> 02:18:17,119 Speaker 6: don't often consider the precarious character of the lives lost 2492 02:18:17,240 --> 02:18:22,280 Speaker 6: in war, and Butler defines precariousness as the following. To 2493 02:18:22,320 --> 02:18:25,440 Speaker 6: say that a life is precarious requires not only that 2494 02:18:25,480 --> 02:18:28,560 Speaker 6: a life be apprehended as a life, but also that 2495 02:18:28,600 --> 02:18:32,200 Speaker 6: precariousness be an aspect of what is apprehended in what 2496 02:18:32,320 --> 02:18:36,240 Speaker 6: is the living normatively construed. I am arguing that there 2497 02:18:36,280 --> 02:18:39,400 Speaker 6: ought to be a more inclusive and egalitarian way of 2498 02:18:39,480 --> 02:18:43,800 Speaker 6: recognizing precariousness, and that this should take form as concrete 2499 02:18:43,920 --> 02:18:49,720 Speaker 6: social policy regarding such issues as shelter work, food, medical care, 2500 02:18:49,920 --> 02:18:53,680 Speaker 6: and legal status. Butler goes on to explain that although 2501 02:18:53,720 --> 02:18:59,920 Speaker 6: this initially seems paradoxical, precariousness itself actually cannot be properly recognized. 2502 02:19:00,879 --> 02:19:04,960 Speaker 6: Butler says it can be apprehended, taken in, encountered, and 2503 02:19:05,000 --> 02:19:08,680 Speaker 6: it can be presupposed by certain norms of recognition, just 2504 02:19:08,760 --> 02:19:12,160 Speaker 6: as it can be refused by such norms. But the 2505 02:19:12,200 --> 02:19:16,680 Speaker 6: main recognition of precariousness should be as this shared condition 2506 02:19:16,920 --> 02:19:20,960 Speaker 6: of human life, so precariousness being a condition that links 2507 02:19:21,160 --> 02:19:25,800 Speaker 6: human life and humans to non human animals. So, for instance, 2508 02:19:25,959 --> 02:19:28,680 Speaker 6: to say that a life is injurable, that it can 2509 02:19:28,720 --> 02:19:33,039 Speaker 6: be lost, hurt, destroyed, or systematically neglected to the point 2510 02:19:33,080 --> 02:19:36,600 Speaker 6: of death is to underscore not only the finitude of 2511 02:19:36,600 --> 02:19:40,080 Speaker 6: a life and that death is certain, but also the 2512 02:19:40,120 --> 02:19:44,240 Speaker 6: precariousness of life, that life requires various social and economic 2513 02:19:44,280 --> 02:19:46,959 Speaker 6: conditions to be met in order to be sustained as 2514 02:19:47,000 --> 02:19:51,560 Speaker 6: a life. Precariousness implies that living socially means that one's 2515 02:19:51,600 --> 02:19:54,879 Speaker 6: life is always, in some sense, in the hands of 2516 02:19:55,040 --> 02:19:58,560 Speaker 6: the other. It implies exposure both to those we know 2517 02:19:58,800 --> 02:20:01,520 Speaker 6: and to those we do not know, a dependency on 2518 02:20:01,600 --> 02:20:04,880 Speaker 6: people we know or barely know, or know not at all. 2519 02:20:05,680 --> 02:20:10,040 Speaker 6: This existential reality that everything ends and everything is temporary. 2520 02:20:10,680 --> 02:20:15,400 Speaker 6: This encapsulates our relation to death and to life. Precariousness 2521 02:20:15,480 --> 02:20:21,279 Speaker 6: underscores what Butler calls our quote radical substitution ability and anonymity, 2522 02:20:21,840 --> 02:20:25,240 Speaker 6: and that dying and death is just as socially facilitated 2523 02:20:25,320 --> 02:20:29,680 Speaker 6: as humans persisting and flourishing. So Butler is saying it's 2524 02:20:29,720 --> 02:20:32,560 Speaker 6: not that we are born and then later become precarious, 2525 02:20:32,600 --> 02:20:36,800 Speaker 6: but rather that precariousness is intrinsic with birth itself, and 2526 02:20:36,840 --> 02:20:41,440 Speaker 6: birth is by definition precarious. It means that it matters 2527 02:20:41,480 --> 02:20:45,120 Speaker 6: whether a newly born infant survives, and its survival is 2528 02:20:45,160 --> 02:20:48,680 Speaker 6: dependent on what we might call a social network of hands. 2529 02:20:49,520 --> 02:20:52,960 Speaker 6: Precisely because a living being may die, it is necessary 2530 02:20:53,000 --> 02:20:56,000 Speaker 6: to care for that being so it may live. I 2531 02:20:56,040 --> 02:20:59,280 Speaker 6: put the following sentence in bold because I think it's 2532 02:20:59,480 --> 02:21:02,360 Speaker 6: kind of underlying what I'm trying to say, even though 2533 02:21:02,360 --> 02:21:05,760 Speaker 6: it sounds really simple. But only under conditions in which 2534 02:21:05,800 --> 02:21:09,280 Speaker 6: the loss would matter does the value of the life appear. 2535 02:21:10,240 --> 02:21:13,040 Speaker 6: And again, maybe it sounds simple, but I don't think 2536 02:21:13,040 --> 02:21:16,400 Speaker 6: we actually absorb the meaning of what that means to 2537 02:21:17,040 --> 02:21:20,680 Speaker 6: value a life and to mourn a life. And this 2538 02:21:20,800 --> 02:21:23,480 Speaker 6: is how we come to the idea of grievability, the 2539 02:21:23,600 --> 02:21:27,760 Speaker 6: idea that grievability is a presupposition for the life that matters. 2540 02:21:28,480 --> 02:21:30,920 Speaker 6: Butler gives us this example, so let's think about this. 2541 02:21:31,640 --> 02:21:35,120 Speaker 6: An infant comes into the world, is sustained in and 2542 02:21:35,200 --> 02:21:38,000 Speaker 6: sustained by that world as an infant, and through to 2543 02:21:38,120 --> 02:21:43,320 Speaker 6: adulthood and old age, and finally eventually it does. We 2544 02:21:43,360 --> 02:21:46,600 Speaker 6: imagine that when the child is wanted, there is celebration 2545 02:21:46,760 --> 02:21:49,360 Speaker 6: at the beginning of life. But there can be no 2546 02:21:49,520 --> 02:21:54,000 Speaker 6: celebration without an implicit understanding that the life is grievable, 2547 02:21:54,320 --> 02:21:56,959 Speaker 6: that it would be grieved if it were lost, that 2548 02:21:57,000 --> 02:22:01,280 Speaker 6: this future possibility is installed as the condition of its life. 2549 02:22:01,920 --> 02:22:06,160 Speaker 6: Life is celebrated because it can be lost. In ordinary language, 2550 02:22:06,200 --> 02:22:09,560 Speaker 6: Butler says, grief attends the life that has already been 2551 02:22:09,640 --> 02:22:13,800 Speaker 6: lived and presupposes that life as having ended. So the 2552 02:22:13,879 --> 02:22:18,440 Speaker 6: value of life comes from the reality and certainty that 2553 02:22:18,520 --> 02:22:21,520 Speaker 6: it will end. And if we think about this idea 2554 02:22:21,560 --> 02:22:25,680 Speaker 6: of possibility of future, this lack of possibility that happens 2555 02:22:25,680 --> 02:22:29,520 Speaker 6: when death happens, grievability is a condition of a life's 2556 02:22:29,520 --> 02:22:33,760 Speaker 6: emergence and sustenance this future. Concept that a life has 2557 02:22:33,800 --> 02:22:37,039 Speaker 6: been lived is presupposed at the beginning of a life 2558 02:22:37,280 --> 02:22:40,520 Speaker 6: that has only begun to be lived. In other words, 2559 02:22:40,560 --> 02:22:43,840 Speaker 6: Butler says, this will be a life that will have 2560 02:22:44,040 --> 02:22:48,280 Speaker 6: been lived is the presupposition of a grievable life, which 2561 02:22:48,320 --> 02:22:50,400 Speaker 6: means that this will be a life that can be 2562 02:22:50,440 --> 02:22:55,160 Speaker 6: regarded as life and sustained by that regard. I know 2563 02:22:55,320 --> 02:22:57,320 Speaker 6: it sounds heady, and I really had to read this 2564 02:22:57,400 --> 02:23:01,480 Speaker 6: multiple times to even try to comprehend it. But essentially, 2565 02:23:01,520 --> 02:23:05,480 Speaker 6: without grievability, without the impulse to mourn a life, there 2566 02:23:05,600 --> 02:23:09,120 Speaker 6: is no life, or rather, there is something living that 2567 02:23:09,240 --> 02:23:13,240 Speaker 6: is other than life. This other than life thing is 2568 02:23:13,280 --> 02:23:15,560 Speaker 6: a life that will never have been lived in the 2569 02:23:15,560 --> 02:23:18,440 Speaker 6: first place, because it's not mourned, and it's sustained by 2570 02:23:18,480 --> 02:23:22,320 Speaker 6: no regard, no testimony, and it is ungrieved when it 2571 02:23:22,440 --> 02:23:27,000 Speaker 6: is lost. The unease and anxiety and apprehension of grievability 2572 02:23:27,200 --> 02:23:31,360 Speaker 6: precedes and makes possible the unease and anxiety and apprehension 2573 02:23:31,879 --> 02:23:38,120 Speaker 6: of precarious life, and so grievability precedes and makes possible 2574 02:23:38,160 --> 02:23:42,640 Speaker 6: the apprehension of the living being as living exposed to 2575 02:23:42,879 --> 02:23:46,280 Speaker 6: non life. From the start, to put it in maybe 2576 02:23:46,320 --> 02:23:51,040 Speaker 6: a simpler way for me to understand even is that 2577 02:23:51,560 --> 02:23:55,640 Speaker 6: a life is worth grieving because we already know it 2578 02:23:55,680 --> 02:23:59,080 Speaker 6: will die, and that life is worth celebrating because it 2579 02:23:59,120 --> 02:24:03,560 Speaker 6: has already been to death or the implication of certain death. 2580 02:24:03,680 --> 02:24:08,039 Speaker 6: From the start, it is pretty heady. But maybe I'll 2581 02:24:08,080 --> 02:24:10,600 Speaker 6: just leave you to marinate with that during a break, 2582 02:24:11,080 --> 02:24:16,800 Speaker 6: and we can get more heady when we get back. Okay, 2583 02:24:17,000 --> 02:24:20,560 Speaker 6: we're back. Let's go back to the idea of war. 2584 02:24:21,320 --> 02:24:24,200 Speaker 6: One way of posing the question of who we are 2585 02:24:24,240 --> 02:24:26,800 Speaker 6: in these times of war is by asking whose lives 2586 02:24:26,840 --> 02:24:30,959 Speaker 6: are considered valuable, whose lives are mourned, and whose lives 2587 02:24:31,000 --> 02:24:36,240 Speaker 6: are considered ungrievable war is essentially the division of populations 2588 02:24:36,320 --> 02:24:38,920 Speaker 6: into those who are a grievable and those who are not. 2589 02:24:39,760 --> 02:24:43,400 Speaker 6: An ungrievable life is one that cannot be mourned because 2590 02:24:43,440 --> 02:24:47,040 Speaker 6: it has never lived, that is, it has never counted 2591 02:24:47,200 --> 02:24:50,480 Speaker 6: as life at all. And we see this division of 2592 02:24:50,520 --> 02:24:54,280 Speaker 6: the entire world into grievable and ungrievable lives when we 2593 02:24:54,320 --> 02:24:57,160 Speaker 6: look at the perspective of those who wage war in 2594 02:24:57,280 --> 02:25:01,040 Speaker 6: order to defend their certain communities. Is kind of reiterating 2595 02:25:01,120 --> 02:25:03,000 Speaker 6: the quote that I'd started with at the top from 2596 02:25:03,000 --> 02:25:07,320 Speaker 6: twenty sixteen, But essentially to defend these certain communities against 2597 02:25:07,320 --> 02:25:11,040 Speaker 6: the life of others, it usually implies the taking of 2598 02:25:11,080 --> 02:25:14,640 Speaker 6: those other lives. Butler here makes a reference to nine 2599 02:25:14,680 --> 02:25:17,520 Speaker 6: to eleven, explaining that after the attacks of nine to eleven, 2600 02:25:17,720 --> 02:25:20,640 Speaker 6: the media showed us graphic pictures of those who died, 2601 02:25:20,800 --> 02:25:23,800 Speaker 6: along with their names, their stories, and the reactions of 2602 02:25:23,879 --> 02:25:28,400 Speaker 6: their families. Public grieving was dedicated to making these images 2603 02:25:28,640 --> 02:25:32,000 Speaker 6: iconic for the nation, which meant that, of course, there 2604 02:25:32,120 --> 02:25:36,840 Speaker 6: was considerably less public grieving for let's say, non US nationals, 2605 02:25:37,160 --> 02:25:41,000 Speaker 6: and none at all for illegal workers. Butler says the 2606 02:25:41,040 --> 02:25:45,640 Speaker 6: differential distribution of public grieving is a political issue of 2607 02:25:45,879 --> 02:25:50,680 Speaker 6: enormous significance, and Butler asks, why is it that governments 2608 02:25:50,720 --> 02:25:54,560 Speaker 6: so often seek to regulate and control who will be 2609 02:25:54,600 --> 02:25:59,160 Speaker 6: publicly grievable and who will not? Because it means something 2610 02:25:59,280 --> 02:26:01,879 Speaker 6: to state and to show the name of someone who 2611 02:26:02,000 --> 02:26:05,160 Speaker 6: has died, to put together some remnants of a life, 2612 02:26:05,200 --> 02:26:08,080 Speaker 6: and to publicly display and draw attention to the loss. 2613 02:26:08,920 --> 02:26:11,720 Speaker 6: So Butler is asking, in this context, what would happen 2614 02:26:11,800 --> 02:26:14,880 Speaker 6: if those killed in war were to be grieved in 2615 02:26:14,920 --> 02:26:17,600 Speaker 6: such an open way? Why is it that we are 2616 02:26:17,640 --> 02:26:20,840 Speaker 6: not given the names of all the war dead, including 2617 02:26:20,920 --> 02:26:24,199 Speaker 6: those the US has killed, of whom we will never 2618 02:26:24,240 --> 02:26:28,040 Speaker 6: have the image, the name, the story, never have a 2619 02:26:28,080 --> 02:26:32,440 Speaker 6: testimonial shard of their life, nothing to see, to touch, 2620 02:26:32,879 --> 02:26:38,280 Speaker 6: to know. Open grieving is bound up with outrage. Outrage 2621 02:26:38,280 --> 02:26:41,840 Speaker 6: in the face of injustice or of unbearable loss has 2622 02:26:42,040 --> 02:26:47,959 Speaker 6: enormous political potential. Butler draws a similarity here to Plato. Apparently, 2623 02:26:48,080 --> 02:26:50,360 Speaker 6: one of the reasons Plato wanted to ban the poets 2624 02:26:50,400 --> 02:26:53,279 Speaker 6: from the republic is that he thought that if citizens 2625 02:26:53,320 --> 02:26:56,680 Speaker 6: went too often to watch tragedy, they would weep over 2626 02:26:56,720 --> 02:27:00,000 Speaker 6: the losses they saw, and that such open and public mind. 2627 02:27:00,760 --> 02:27:04,240 Speaker 6: In disrupting the order and hierarchy of the soul would 2628 02:27:04,280 --> 02:27:08,920 Speaker 6: disrupt the order and hierarchy of political authority as well. 2629 02:27:09,040 --> 02:27:10,560 Speaker 6: And I didn't know this, but to put it in 2630 02:27:10,600 --> 02:27:14,680 Speaker 6: that context is really fascinating to me, because it's essentially 2631 02:27:14,720 --> 02:27:18,680 Speaker 6: saying that if we expose human beings to the reality 2632 02:27:18,720 --> 02:27:22,240 Speaker 6: of tragedy in life, they might care too much and 2633 02:27:22,520 --> 02:27:26,280 Speaker 6: start to fuck up our politics. Essentially, so, whether we 2634 02:27:26,320 --> 02:27:30,040 Speaker 6: are speaking about open grief or outrage, we are talking 2635 02:27:30,080 --> 02:27:34,200 Speaker 6: about effective or emotional responses that are highly regulated by 2636 02:27:34,240 --> 02:27:39,840 Speaker 6: regimes of power and sometimes subject to explicit censorship. The 2637 02:27:39,879 --> 02:27:42,440 Speaker 6: blog post I'm referring to that Judith Butler wrote was 2638 02:27:42,440 --> 02:27:45,400 Speaker 6: written in twenty fifteen, So Butler uses the wars in 2639 02:27:45,440 --> 02:27:48,560 Speaker 6: Iraq and Afghanistan as examples of what they're trying to say. 2640 02:27:49,240 --> 02:27:52,320 Speaker 6: For the wars in Iraq in Afghanistan, we saw how 2641 02:27:52,320 --> 02:27:55,600 Speaker 6: emotion was regulated to support both the war effort and 2642 02:27:55,920 --> 02:28:00,720 Speaker 6: more specifically nationalists belonging. When the photos of Bougrabe were 2643 02:28:00,760 --> 02:28:04,600 Speaker 6: first released in the US, conservative television pundits argued that 2644 02:28:04,640 --> 02:28:08,039 Speaker 6: it would be un American to show them because we 2645 02:28:08,040 --> 02:28:10,520 Speaker 6: were not supposed to have graphic evidence of the acts 2646 02:28:10,560 --> 02:28:13,520 Speaker 6: of torture the US has committed. We were not supposed 2647 02:28:13,560 --> 02:28:17,760 Speaker 6: to know that the US had violated internationally recognized human rights. 2648 02:28:18,120 --> 02:28:21,400 Speaker 6: It was Unamerican to show these photos, an Unamerican to 2649 02:28:21,520 --> 02:28:24,720 Speaker 6: glean information from them as to how the war was 2650 02:28:24,760 --> 02:28:28,840 Speaker 6: being conducted. Bill O'Reilly thought that the photos would create 2651 02:28:28,879 --> 02:28:31,160 Speaker 6: a negative image of the US, and that we had 2652 02:28:31,200 --> 02:28:34,240 Speaker 6: an obligation to defend a positive image of the country. 2653 02:28:34,800 --> 02:28:38,840 Speaker 6: Donald Rumsfeld said something similar, suggesting it was anti American 2654 02:28:38,959 --> 02:28:43,120 Speaker 6: to display the photos. Of course, these idiots didn't consider, 2655 02:28:43,360 --> 02:28:46,560 Speaker 6: and neither did the vast majority of people in power. 2656 02:28:47,080 --> 02:28:50,120 Speaker 6: But the American public should have a right to know 2657 02:28:50,280 --> 02:28:53,520 Speaker 6: about the activities of its military, and it should have 2658 02:28:53,640 --> 02:28:57,960 Speaker 6: the right to judge a war. Understanding and judging a 2659 02:28:58,000 --> 02:29:01,200 Speaker 6: war on the basis of full evidence is, or at 2660 02:29:01,360 --> 02:29:04,440 Speaker 6: least it should be part of the democratic tradition of 2661 02:29:04,480 --> 02:29:09,279 Speaker 6: participation and deliberation. So what was this really saying? Butler's 2662 02:29:09,320 --> 02:29:13,360 Speaker 6: asking they say, it seems to me that those who 2663 02:29:13,480 --> 02:29:15,920 Speaker 6: sought to limit the power of the image in this 2664 02:29:16,080 --> 02:29:20,599 Speaker 6: instance also sought to limit the power of effect of outrage, 2665 02:29:21,000 --> 02:29:24,440 Speaker 6: knowing full well that it could and would turn public 2666 02:29:24,480 --> 02:29:28,160 Speaker 6: opinion against the war in Iraq as it died, it did. 2667 02:29:28,920 --> 02:29:32,360 Speaker 6: I feel like this is especially fascinating and parallel to 2668 02:29:32,400 --> 02:29:36,680 Speaker 6: what we're seeing now with the people in Palestine broadcasting 2669 02:29:37,040 --> 02:29:39,959 Speaker 6: horrific images of what is happening to them because of 2670 02:29:39,959 --> 02:29:44,560 Speaker 6: the state of Israel, and how there's selective outrage because 2671 02:29:45,040 --> 02:29:48,520 Speaker 6: it is almost impolite to show or proliferate these images 2672 02:29:48,560 --> 02:29:52,879 Speaker 6: that only show reality. It really feels like people are 2673 02:29:52,879 --> 02:29:57,840 Speaker 6: only outraged when they consider a life grievable, which takes 2674 02:29:57,959 --> 02:30:00,840 Speaker 6: us to this whole topic brings us back to the 2675 02:30:00,920 --> 02:30:05,000 Speaker 6: question of whose lives are regarded as mournable, as grievable, 2676 02:30:05,320 --> 02:30:08,840 Speaker 6: and whose lives are regarded as worthy of protection, whose 2677 02:30:08,920 --> 02:30:12,200 Speaker 6: lives are regarded as belonging to subjects with rights that 2678 02:30:12,360 --> 02:30:16,520 Speaker 6: should be honored. This ties indirectly to the idea of 2679 02:30:16,560 --> 02:30:20,160 Speaker 6: how effect or emotion is regulated, and what we mean 2680 02:30:20,200 --> 02:30:23,760 Speaker 6: by the regulation of emotion at all. Butler references the 2681 02:30:23,800 --> 02:30:27,360 Speaker 6: anthropologist Talal Assad, who wrote a book about suicide bombing. 2682 02:30:27,720 --> 02:30:31,000 Speaker 6: In this book, the first question he poses is why 2683 02:30:31,000 --> 02:30:33,920 Speaker 6: do we feel horror and moral repulsion in the face 2684 02:30:33,959 --> 02:30:36,920 Speaker 6: of suicide bombing when we do not always feel the 2685 02:30:36,959 --> 02:30:41,000 Speaker 6: same way in the face of state sponsored violence. He 2686 02:30:41,120 --> 02:30:43,320 Speaker 6: asks this question not in order to say that these 2687 02:30:43,360 --> 02:30:47,000 Speaker 6: forms of violence are the same or equatable, or even 2688 02:30:47,040 --> 02:30:48,920 Speaker 6: to say that we ought to feel the same moral 2689 02:30:48,959 --> 02:30:53,120 Speaker 6: outrage in relation to both. But Asad finds it curious, 2690 02:30:53,280 --> 02:30:57,199 Speaker 6: as does Butler, that our moral responses, responses that first 2691 02:30:57,280 --> 02:31:01,480 Speaker 6: take form as effect, are tacitly regular by certain kinds 2692 02:31:01,480 --> 02:31:05,879 Speaker 6: of interpretive frameworks. His thesis is that we feel. 2693 02:31:05,640 --> 02:31:07,279 Speaker 1: More horror and moral. 2694 02:31:07,000 --> 02:31:10,519 Speaker 6: Revulsion in the face of lives lost under certain conditions 2695 02:31:11,080 --> 02:31:15,720 Speaker 6: than under certain others. Assad explains that, for instance, if 2696 02:31:15,760 --> 02:31:19,199 Speaker 6: someone kills or is killed in war, and the war 2697 02:31:19,280 --> 02:31:22,880 Speaker 6: is state sponsored, and we invest the state with legitimacy, 2698 02:31:23,280 --> 02:31:28,240 Speaker 6: then we consider the death lamentable, sad, unfortunate, but ultimately 2699 02:31:28,440 --> 02:31:32,920 Speaker 6: not radically unjust. And yet if the violence is perpetrated 2700 02:31:32,959 --> 02:31:38,279 Speaker 6: by insurgency groups regarded as illegitimate, that our emotion invariably changes, 2701 02:31:38,600 --> 02:31:42,680 Speaker 6: or so Assad assumes. Asad is saying something here that 2702 02:31:42,800 --> 02:31:46,960 Speaker 6: is really important about how the politics of moral responsiveness 2703 02:31:47,360 --> 02:31:51,800 Speaker 6: really feed into public perception. That what we feel is 2704 02:31:51,840 --> 02:31:55,400 Speaker 6: in part conditioned by how we interpret the world around us, 2705 02:31:55,959 --> 02:31:59,200 Speaker 6: that how we interpret what we feel actually can and 2706 02:31:59,320 --> 02:32:03,039 Speaker 6: does alter the feeling itself. If we can accept our 2707 02:32:03,040 --> 02:32:06,200 Speaker 6: emotion could be affected and structured by things we do 2708 02:32:06,280 --> 02:32:10,600 Speaker 6: not fully understand. Can this help us understand why it 2709 02:32:10,680 --> 02:32:12,720 Speaker 6: is that we might feel horror in the face of 2710 02:32:12,840 --> 02:32:16,600 Speaker 6: certain losses, but in difference or even righteousness in the 2711 02:32:16,720 --> 02:32:21,240 Speaker 6: light of others. Conditions of war bring something really interesting here, 2712 02:32:21,680 --> 02:32:26,960 Speaker 6: this feeling of heightened nationalism. In this feeling of heightened nationalism, 2713 02:32:27,000 --> 02:32:30,760 Speaker 6: it's as though our existence is bound with others, with 2714 02:32:30,879 --> 02:32:34,320 Speaker 6: whom we find some kind of national affinity for who 2715 02:32:34,400 --> 02:32:37,600 Speaker 6: are recognizable to us, and who can conform to certain 2716 02:32:37,640 --> 02:32:42,280 Speaker 6: culturally specific notions about what the culturally recognizable human is. 2717 02:32:43,160 --> 02:32:45,160 Speaker 6: And sure, maybe some of you are like, well, this 2718 02:32:45,240 --> 02:32:47,600 Speaker 6: is really obvious. Of course, some people care more about 2719 02:32:47,600 --> 02:32:50,320 Speaker 6: people who look like them or about things that directly 2720 02:32:50,360 --> 02:32:54,200 Speaker 6: affect them. But what I'm arguing is that I can't 2721 02:32:54,240 --> 02:32:57,480 Speaker 6: accept that as reality. I don't think we should accept 2722 02:32:58,160 --> 02:33:02,760 Speaker 6: humans as by default. There's no way change happens that way. 2723 02:33:03,320 --> 02:33:06,879 Speaker 6: I think we have to question why we unconsciously are 2724 02:33:06,879 --> 02:33:10,160 Speaker 6: more outraged by certain losses than others, or why the 2725 02:33:10,200 --> 02:33:13,200 Speaker 6: public is this way. Even if you are not, Oh, 2726 02:33:13,800 --> 02:33:15,440 Speaker 6: that's a lot of stuff. That's a lot of information. 2727 02:33:15,640 --> 02:33:18,240 Speaker 6: Let's take our second break, we can just marinate with 2728 02:33:18,280 --> 02:33:20,760 Speaker 6: all of that, and uh, we'll be right back to 2729 02:33:20,760 --> 02:33:25,240 Speaker 6: wrap this up. Okay, we're back. So we discussed the 2730 02:33:25,320 --> 02:33:28,760 Speaker 6: differentiation of the population of the world into grievable and 2731 02:33:28,800 --> 02:33:32,320 Speaker 6: ungrievable lives, and now we are going to differentiate between 2732 02:33:32,360 --> 02:33:35,600 Speaker 6: the populations on whom your life and existence depend on 2733 02:33:36,080 --> 02:33:39,440 Speaker 6: and those populations represent a direct threat to your life 2734 02:33:39,440 --> 02:33:42,879 Speaker 6: in existence. This is a concept that really struck me 2735 02:33:42,920 --> 02:33:45,480 Speaker 6: as something we don't even give a second thought to 2736 02:33:46,080 --> 02:33:49,360 Speaker 6: that when a population appears as a direct threat to 2737 02:33:49,440 --> 02:33:53,119 Speaker 6: your life, they do not appear as lives, but as 2738 02:33:53,200 --> 02:33:57,280 Speaker 6: a threat to life. Butler asks us to consider how 2739 02:33:57,320 --> 02:33:59,920 Speaker 6: this is shown with how the world views an intern 2740 02:34:00,040 --> 02:34:03,880 Speaker 6: or Islam. Islam is portrayed and seen by our media, 2741 02:34:03,959 --> 02:34:08,200 Speaker 6: whether it's implicit or explicit as barbaric or pre modern, 2742 02:34:08,560 --> 02:34:11,280 Speaker 6: as not having yet conformed to the norms that make 2743 02:34:11,320 --> 02:34:15,000 Speaker 6: the human recognizable to the West, to the American. So 2744 02:34:15,080 --> 02:34:18,000 Speaker 6: those who Americans kill by following this line of thought 2745 02:34:18,600 --> 02:34:22,400 Speaker 6: are not quite human. They are not quite alive, which 2746 02:34:22,440 --> 02:34:24,920 Speaker 6: means that we do not feel the same horror and 2747 02:34:25,080 --> 02:34:28,200 Speaker 6: outrage over their loss of life as we do the 2748 02:34:28,280 --> 02:34:32,160 Speaker 6: loss of life that bear national or religious similarity to 2749 02:34:32,240 --> 02:34:36,039 Speaker 6: our own. And again, this isn't a novel concept. In 2750 02:34:36,120 --> 02:34:38,800 Speaker 6: simple terms, it can be whittled down to the reality 2751 02:34:38,840 --> 02:34:41,600 Speaker 6: that most people only care about things that directly affect 2752 02:34:41,640 --> 02:34:45,240 Speaker 6: them or things that happen to those who look like them. 2753 02:34:45,440 --> 02:34:48,840 Speaker 6: And again, maybe that seems like an obvious realization to 2754 02:34:48,879 --> 02:34:51,879 Speaker 6: make about our society. But what I'm asking you to 2755 02:34:51,959 --> 02:34:55,160 Speaker 6: do is not just accept this as part of the 2756 02:34:55,280 --> 02:34:58,320 Speaker 6: human condition and to question why it is like that 2757 02:34:58,440 --> 02:35:02,480 Speaker 6: in the first place. True deep understanding of ourselves and 2758 02:35:02,520 --> 02:35:07,160 Speaker 6: of our humanity is dependent on us excavating ugly truths 2759 02:35:07,240 --> 02:35:10,520 Speaker 6: about ourselves and humanity that we are not even maybe 2760 02:35:10,560 --> 02:35:13,680 Speaker 6: aware of. I think this is something that bothers me 2761 02:35:13,879 --> 02:35:17,039 Speaker 6: about how Israel's narrative or desion, this narrative of the 2762 02:35:17,280 --> 02:35:21,960 Speaker 6: conception of Israel almost makes them seem sinless. They had 2763 02:35:22,000 --> 02:35:25,160 Speaker 6: done nothing wrong, the Arabs or barbarians that didn't leave 2764 02:35:25,160 --> 02:35:28,560 Speaker 6: them alone. The same can be said about how American 2765 02:35:28,640 --> 02:35:32,240 Speaker 6: history books talked about Columbus and the Native American people. 2766 02:35:32,280 --> 02:35:32,520 Speaker 2: Here. 2767 02:35:33,320 --> 02:35:36,000 Speaker 6: Usually history is written by those who want to appear 2768 02:35:36,080 --> 02:35:39,600 Speaker 6: in a better light, and by default, I feel like 2769 02:35:39,680 --> 02:35:43,680 Speaker 6: this makes them sinless and pure and can do no wrong, 2770 02:35:44,680 --> 02:35:49,840 Speaker 6: but again better understanding. If humanity means accepting that sometimes 2771 02:35:49,879 --> 02:35:52,920 Speaker 6: it is grotesque, and I think that is something we 2772 02:35:53,000 --> 02:35:57,600 Speaker 6: need to accept and understand. I think Israeli's need to 2773 02:35:57,680 --> 02:36:00,240 Speaker 6: accept that the Nekba happened in order to move on 2774 02:36:00,280 --> 02:36:03,360 Speaker 6: from it. Things like that is what I'm thinking about 2775 02:36:03,400 --> 02:36:07,160 Speaker 6: when I read about this stuff. But anyways, tallal Asad 2776 02:36:07,360 --> 02:36:11,240 Speaker 6: is wondering why modes of death dealing are apprehended differently, 2777 02:36:11,600 --> 02:36:13,840 Speaker 6: Why we object to the deaths that are caused by 2778 02:36:13,840 --> 02:36:17,760 Speaker 6: suicide bombing more forcefully and with greater moral outrage than 2779 02:36:17,800 --> 02:36:20,640 Speaker 6: we do those deaths that are caused by aerial bombings. 2780 02:36:21,440 --> 02:36:25,400 Speaker 6: And then Butler takes this back to how we differentiate populations, 2781 02:36:25,440 --> 02:36:28,440 Speaker 6: how some are considered from the start very much alive 2782 02:36:28,640 --> 02:36:32,800 Speaker 6: and others more questionably alive or as living figures of 2783 02:36:32,840 --> 02:36:37,039 Speaker 6: the threat to life. Perhaps they're even regarded as quote 2784 02:36:37,080 --> 02:36:40,959 Speaker 6: socially dead, which is the term that Jamaican American historian 2785 02:36:41,000 --> 02:36:45,280 Speaker 6: and sociologist Orlando Patterson developed to describe the status of 2786 02:36:45,400 --> 02:36:49,680 Speaker 6: the slave war relies on and perpetuates a way of 2787 02:36:49,760 --> 02:36:53,640 Speaker 6: dividing lives into those who are worth defending, valuing, and 2788 02:36:53,720 --> 02:36:56,520 Speaker 6: grieving when they are lost, and those that are not 2789 02:36:56,640 --> 02:37:01,600 Speaker 6: quite lives, not quite valuable, recognizable, or mournable. And it 2790 02:37:01,600 --> 02:37:04,640 Speaker 6: should come as no surprise that the death of ungrievable 2791 02:37:04,680 --> 02:37:08,000 Speaker 6: lives would cause deep outrage on the part of those 2792 02:37:08,080 --> 02:37:11,360 Speaker 6: who understand and are seeing that their lives are not 2793 02:37:11,480 --> 02:37:14,640 Speaker 6: considered to be lives in any meaningful sense of the 2794 02:37:14,640 --> 02:37:18,800 Speaker 6: word in this world. Butler explains that although the logic 2795 02:37:18,840 --> 02:37:22,840 Speaker 6: of self defense portrays such populations as threats to life 2796 02:37:22,879 --> 02:37:26,760 Speaker 6: as we know it, they are themselves living populations with 2797 02:37:26,840 --> 02:37:32,000 Speaker 6: whom our cohabitation presupposes a certain interdependency among us. 2798 02:37:32,760 --> 02:37:33,440 Speaker 1: What does that. 2799 02:37:33,480 --> 02:37:38,920 Speaker 6: Mean, Well, it's about how interdependency is interpreted and executed, 2800 02:37:39,160 --> 02:37:43,160 Speaker 6: and how it has concrete implications for who survives, who thrives, 2801 02:37:43,280 --> 02:37:46,320 Speaker 6: who barely makes it, and who is eliminated or left 2802 02:37:46,440 --> 02:37:50,800 Speaker 6: to die. Butler writes, I want to insist on this 2803 02:37:50,920 --> 02:37:55,440 Speaker 6: interdependency precisely because when nations such as the US or 2804 02:37:55,480 --> 02:37:59,560 Speaker 6: Israel argue that their survival is served by war, a 2805 02:37:59,640 --> 02:38:03,680 Speaker 6: systematic error is committed. This is because war seeks to 2806 02:38:03,760 --> 02:38:07,320 Speaker 6: deny the ongoing, irrefutable ways in which we are all 2807 02:38:07,360 --> 02:38:10,600 Speaker 6: subject to one another, vulnerable to destruction by the other, 2808 02:38:11,040 --> 02:38:15,199 Speaker 6: and in need of protection through multilateral and global agreements 2809 02:38:15,480 --> 02:38:19,920 Speaker 6: based on the recognition of a shared precariousness. The reason 2810 02:38:20,000 --> 02:38:23,160 Speaker 6: I am not free to destroy another, and indeed why 2811 02:38:23,280 --> 02:38:26,760 Speaker 6: nations are not finally free to destroy one another, is 2812 02:38:26,800 --> 02:38:30,679 Speaker 6: not only because it will lead to further destructive consequences. 2813 02:38:31,160 --> 02:38:34,920 Speaker 6: That is doubtless true. But what may be finally more 2814 02:38:34,959 --> 02:38:38,120 Speaker 6: true is that the subject I am is bound to 2815 02:38:38,160 --> 02:38:41,200 Speaker 6: the subject I am not. That we each have the 2816 02:38:41,280 --> 02:38:44,840 Speaker 6: power to destroy and to be destroyed, and that we 2817 02:38:44,879 --> 02:38:47,720 Speaker 6: are bound to one another in this power and in 2818 02:38:47,800 --> 02:38:52,920 Speaker 6: this precariousness. In this sense, we are all precarious lives. 2819 02:38:53,840 --> 02:38:59,600 Speaker 6: That's essentially the takeaway that I got from the article 2820 02:38:59,600 --> 02:39:01,680 Speaker 6: as a whole, or this blog post as a whole, 2821 02:39:02,760 --> 02:39:05,880 Speaker 6: kind of just unifying us into the fact that we're 2822 02:39:06,240 --> 02:39:10,560 Speaker 6: all the same and our divisions are truly man made. 2823 02:39:11,080 --> 02:39:14,320 Speaker 6: Whether it's about grievable lives and ungrievable lives, or just 2824 02:39:14,400 --> 02:39:18,240 Speaker 6: this concept of grievability in general, I think it's worth examining. 2825 02:39:18,400 --> 02:39:21,440 Speaker 6: I think it's worth examining how now in real time, 2826 02:39:21,680 --> 02:39:26,400 Speaker 6: we're seeing how certain people value lives over others. This 2827 02:39:26,560 --> 02:39:29,119 Speaker 6: is across the board. I'm not just talking about one 2828 02:39:29,160 --> 02:39:33,840 Speaker 6: group of people. Grievable lives, I think are this concept 2829 02:39:34,040 --> 02:39:39,800 Speaker 6: for me, and tying grief intrinsically to life is essential 2830 02:39:39,840 --> 02:39:43,280 Speaker 6: to understanding why it is life is valuable at all. 2831 02:39:43,320 --> 02:39:46,120 Speaker 6: It's because it can be lost. And if life isn't 2832 02:39:46,160 --> 02:39:48,440 Speaker 6: valuable to begin with, if that life that you're looking 2833 02:39:48,480 --> 02:39:50,880 Speaker 6: at isn't valuable to begin with, you won't grieve it. 2834 02:39:51,680 --> 02:39:54,040 Speaker 6: And I think this also can go back to how 2835 02:39:54,120 --> 02:39:57,920 Speaker 6: we're seeing really dehumanizing language being used to specifically right 2836 02:39:57,959 --> 02:40:01,720 Speaker 6: now describe Palestinians or Arabs or most This all leads 2837 02:40:01,760 --> 02:40:05,760 Speaker 6: to dehumanizing a group of people to make them seem 2838 02:40:06,240 --> 02:40:10,800 Speaker 6: inhuman and in a way unlive. So well, all of that. 2839 02:40:11,600 --> 02:40:16,920 Speaker 6: I hope this philosophical pivot was interesting to you. And yeah, 2840 02:40:17,720 --> 02:40:21,600 Speaker 6: until next time, you know how it goes through. Kalsteine. 2841 02:40:37,040 --> 02:40:41,720 Speaker 5: Hello, hello Mia, Hello you lot. Hello podcast fans, this 2842 02:40:41,800 --> 02:40:44,160 Speaker 5: is it could happen here a podcast about how the 2843 02:40:44,160 --> 02:40:46,600 Speaker 5: world is falling apart and some people who are trying 2844 02:40:46,640 --> 02:40:50,400 Speaker 5: to pull it back together. Today, we are not talking 2845 02:40:50,400 --> 02:40:52,760 Speaker 5: about people who are pulling it back together. We are 2846 02:40:52,959 --> 02:40:55,240 Speaker 5: talking about a guy who is constantly struggling to hold 2847 02:40:55,280 --> 02:40:58,600 Speaker 5: it together. And that, my friends, is Joseph Robinette Biden, 2848 02:40:59,000 --> 02:41:05,760 Speaker 5: old guy United States president and a border fascist. And 2849 02:41:05,879 --> 02:41:08,200 Speaker 5: what's happening. Why are we talking about Joseph robin and 2850 02:41:08,320 --> 02:41:12,200 Speaker 5: Biden today, Well, because you will remember that Biden made 2851 02:41:12,280 --> 02:41:16,200 Speaker 5: some promises when he was campaigning in twenty twenty, and 2852 02:41:16,240 --> 02:41:18,480 Speaker 5: it will shock you to hear that he is throwing 2853 02:41:18,600 --> 02:41:22,000 Speaker 5: migrants under the bus again. In an attempt to get 2854 02:41:22,040 --> 02:41:24,760 Speaker 5: Republicans in the Senate to stop stamping their feet and 2855 02:41:24,879 --> 02:41:29,320 Speaker 5: whaling and having a tantrum, specifically, the Senate failed to 2856 02:41:29,360 --> 02:41:32,279 Speaker 5: pass an emergency spending bill which would fund military Among 2857 02:41:32,400 --> 02:41:34,880 Speaker 5: other things, it would fund military a to Ukraine, Taiwan, 2858 02:41:34,920 --> 02:41:38,120 Speaker 5: and Israel. And the reason they did that is because 2859 02:41:38,160 --> 02:41:41,960 Speaker 5: these Republicans are having a little tantrum about quote unquote 2860 02:41:42,000 --> 02:41:47,040 Speaker 5: border security. Border security probably doesn't mean what you think 2861 02:41:47,080 --> 02:41:50,840 Speaker 5: it means. In practical terms, what border security means is 2862 02:41:50,920 --> 02:41:54,120 Speaker 5: killing more innocent people, more people who are fleeing the 2863 02:41:54,160 --> 02:41:57,320 Speaker 5: worst things that are happening in this world at our 2864 02:41:57,360 --> 02:42:01,119 Speaker 5: southern border. It is making America a more deadly place 2865 02:42:01,720 --> 02:42:04,560 Speaker 5: for the most desperate people on earth. That is what 2866 02:42:04,600 --> 02:42:07,680 Speaker 5: border security means. That is what I want you to 2867 02:42:07,720 --> 02:42:10,880 Speaker 5: think of when you hear people saying we should secure 2868 02:42:10,879 --> 02:42:14,640 Speaker 5: our border because the people you're securing it against are 2869 02:42:15,680 --> 02:42:20,560 Speaker 5: the Azd mother I saw carrying her children to try 2870 02:42:20,600 --> 02:42:24,240 Speaker 5: and come to a safer place. They are the Afghan 2871 02:42:25,600 --> 02:42:30,279 Speaker 5: grandmother who I saw walking through the mountains last weekend. 2872 02:42:31,120 --> 02:42:36,000 Speaker 5: Those are the people who we're securing our border against. Right, 2873 02:42:36,120 --> 02:42:40,480 Speaker 5: And this is sorry, this just pisses me off to 2874 02:42:40,520 --> 02:42:44,080 Speaker 5: an unfathomable degree for many of you. But the reason 2875 02:42:44,400 --> 02:42:47,880 Speaker 5: we're talking about this today is because whatever happens at 2876 02:42:47,879 --> 02:42:50,600 Speaker 5: the border, right, whatever policy we have at the border, 2877 02:42:50,680 --> 02:42:53,880 Speaker 5: migration won't change because what people are leaving is worse 2878 02:42:54,000 --> 02:42:58,520 Speaker 5: than that, and so they will still come here because 2879 02:42:58,560 --> 02:43:00,640 Speaker 5: they believe the lies in America tells the world, and 2880 02:43:00,640 --> 02:43:03,200 Speaker 5: it tells its citizens about itself too, that this is 2881 02:43:03,200 --> 02:43:04,879 Speaker 5: a safe place. And for some people that has been 2882 02:43:04,920 --> 02:43:09,320 Speaker 5: a safe place, and that's a good thing. But what 2883 02:43:09,400 --> 02:43:12,280 Speaker 5: will change is how people are treated when they get here. 2884 02:43:12,280 --> 02:43:14,800 Speaker 5: Because what Biden has proposed is a return to Title 2885 02:43:14,840 --> 02:43:17,400 Speaker 5: forty two. I made a whole series on Title forty 2886 02:43:17,400 --> 02:43:20,119 Speaker 5: two that you can listen to. But what he's proposing 2887 02:43:20,160 --> 02:43:24,560 Speaker 5: this time is a very similar policy by which the 2888 02:43:25,120 --> 02:43:27,520 Speaker 5: border patrol agent who meets people after they cross the 2889 02:43:27,520 --> 02:43:30,760 Speaker 5: border in between ports of entry, can send them directly 2890 02:43:30,800 --> 02:43:32,800 Speaker 5: back to Mexico without them having a chance for an 2891 02:43:32,840 --> 02:43:37,320 Speaker 5: asylum hearing. Right, this is illegal under international law and 2892 02:43:37,360 --> 02:43:40,280 Speaker 5: parts of the US law. It doesn't It's not clear 2893 02:43:40,280 --> 02:43:43,440 Speaker 5: what Biden's proposing or what the administration is proposing to 2894 02:43:43,520 --> 02:43:46,040 Speaker 5: do about it. Maybe they could change the immigration law. 2895 02:43:46,680 --> 02:43:48,880 Speaker 5: They could probably get enough vote for that, given that 2896 02:43:48,879 --> 02:43:51,840 Speaker 5: people in Congress seem to care very little about migrants. 2897 02:43:52,400 --> 02:43:54,800 Speaker 5: But this isn't a well fleshed out proposal. But what 2898 02:43:54,879 --> 02:43:58,720 Speaker 5: it very clearly shows, right, is the intent to throw 2899 02:43:58,840 --> 02:44:00,800 Speaker 5: some of the most desperate people but on earth bit 2900 02:44:00,840 --> 02:44:05,080 Speaker 5: a buth and that is It's disgusting, it's ab horror, 2901 02:44:05,160 --> 02:44:07,199 Speaker 5: and it shouldn't be unexpected either. 2902 02:44:07,680 --> 02:44:10,600 Speaker 1: The executive is a branch in democratic control that is 2903 02:44:10,680 --> 02:44:14,879 Speaker 1: utterly incapable of helping a single person, but has the immense, terrible, 2904 02:44:14,879 --> 02:44:17,280 Speaker 1: and powerful authority to kill any person on Earth, and then, 2905 02:44:17,320 --> 02:44:22,440 Speaker 1: secondarily to I'm just going to call it, effectively perform 2906 02:44:22,440 --> 02:44:26,760 Speaker 1: ethnic cleansings by continually removing populations from the US. 2907 02:44:26,840 --> 02:44:29,920 Speaker 5: They could just do this, yeah, and all they used 2908 02:44:29,920 --> 02:44:32,760 Speaker 5: the executive for yes it is yeah, yeah, yeah. They 2909 02:44:32,840 --> 02:44:36,600 Speaker 5: have never once waived that executive power in defense of 2910 02:44:36,640 --> 02:44:38,920 Speaker 5: the little guy or people who desperately needed help. It 2911 02:44:38,920 --> 02:44:41,480 Speaker 5: would seem certainly not in the last couple of administrations 2912 02:44:42,560 --> 02:44:46,320 Speaker 5: shouts or the former Bomber administration staff. It's by the way, 2913 02:44:46,320 --> 02:44:49,240 Speaker 5: for showing their whole ass by the screaming racist shit 2914 02:44:49,360 --> 02:44:53,280 Speaker 5: at Muslim people in the last few weeks for people 2915 02:44:53,280 --> 02:44:55,600 Speaker 5: who hadn't already kind of worked out how terrible the 2916 02:44:55,720 --> 02:44:58,960 Speaker 5: Bomber administration's policy was. So I want to talk a 2917 02:44:59,000 --> 02:45:00,960 Speaker 5: little bit about the thing that they're trying to do. 2918 02:45:02,440 --> 02:45:06,440 Speaker 5: So the first and foremost would be allowing border patrol 2919 02:45:06,520 --> 02:45:09,440 Speaker 5: to summarily expel migrants. Let me explain to you exactly 2920 02:45:09,440 --> 02:45:13,120 Speaker 5: how fucking stupid this thing is. I was present with 2921 02:45:13,200 --> 02:45:16,440 Speaker 5: a border patrol agent last week who was trying to 2922 02:45:16,440 --> 02:45:19,280 Speaker 5: discern who was a child or not. Who was hampered 2923 02:45:19,400 --> 02:45:22,240 Speaker 5: in this by not being able to count in Spanish. 2924 02:45:22,640 --> 02:45:26,039 Speaker 5: Border patrol agents do take a Spanish class in their academy, right, 2925 02:45:26,120 --> 02:45:29,160 Speaker 5: but how the fuck are we expecting this guy to 2926 02:45:29,200 --> 02:45:32,640 Speaker 5: discern the veracity of someone's asylum claim when he can't 2927 02:45:32,680 --> 02:45:38,280 Speaker 5: count to eighteen like this person? Right under this proposed 2928 02:45:38,440 --> 02:45:47,800 Speaker 5: Democratic proposal would have the effectively life or death choice 2929 02:45:47,800 --> 02:45:50,120 Speaker 5: of whether someone can make an asylum claim or they 2930 02:45:50,160 --> 02:45:53,880 Speaker 5: get immediately bounced back to Mexico. Right, this person would, 2931 02:45:53,920 --> 02:45:57,880 Speaker 5: for instance, have the choice to send a trans woman 2932 02:45:58,400 --> 02:46:02,000 Speaker 5: who would not be safequote unquote remaining in Mexico while 2933 02:46:02,080 --> 02:46:06,360 Speaker 5: she applied for asylum here back to Mexico to apply 2934 02:46:06,440 --> 02:46:09,599 Speaker 5: for asylum here. Right, this person will be able to 2935 02:46:09,640 --> 02:46:13,000 Speaker 5: send someone who has very credible fears of violence in 2936 02:46:13,040 --> 02:46:16,000 Speaker 5: Mexico back to Mexico where they often have no network, 2937 02:46:16,040 --> 02:46:20,440 Speaker 5: they have no resources. It once again be putting the 2938 02:46:20,480 --> 02:46:23,560 Speaker 5: strain of our foreign policy and the fucked up shit 2939 02:46:23,640 --> 02:46:27,080 Speaker 5: we've done all around the world that is destabilized regimes, 2940 02:46:27,240 --> 02:46:29,760 Speaker 5: specifically across South America, but also all around the world. 2941 02:46:30,240 --> 02:46:33,560 Speaker 5: As a consequence of that, people aren't safe there. They're 2942 02:46:33,600 --> 02:46:36,760 Speaker 5: coming here to find safety, and we're placing it in 2943 02:46:36,760 --> 02:46:41,160 Speaker 5: the hands of a random border patrol agent who may 2944 02:46:41,680 --> 02:46:43,680 Speaker 5: very well not speak the language. You understand anything they're 2945 02:46:43,680 --> 02:46:46,360 Speaker 5: saying to bounce them back. That's not how we should 2946 02:46:46,360 --> 02:46:48,360 Speaker 5: do think I think it probably goes without saying. They 2947 02:46:48,400 --> 02:46:52,040 Speaker 5: also want to begin a process of what's called expedited removal. 2948 02:46:53,360 --> 02:46:57,280 Speaker 5: This allows immigration officials to deport people without court hearings 2949 02:46:57,320 --> 02:46:59,680 Speaker 5: if they don't ask for asylum or if they fail 2950 02:46:59,720 --> 02:47:05,000 Speaker 5: there an asylum interview. Again like this treating of people 2951 02:47:05,120 --> 02:47:07,880 Speaker 5: seeking asylum like they don't have rights or right like 2952 02:47:08,400 --> 02:47:12,400 Speaker 5: they have to they're guilty and to proven innocent almost 2953 02:47:12,480 --> 02:47:17,200 Speaker 5: in this system, right and to be proven to get 2954 02:47:17,240 --> 02:47:19,280 Speaker 5: these court hearings to do well in these court thinks 2955 02:47:19,320 --> 02:47:22,600 Speaker 5: they need money, They need lawyers. Those lawyers can cost 2956 02:47:22,640 --> 02:47:25,320 Speaker 5: anywhere from six to twelve thousand dollars from what I've heard. 2957 02:47:25,480 --> 02:47:27,640 Speaker 5: But these people aren't allowed to work in the United States. 2958 02:47:27,680 --> 02:47:32,120 Speaker 5: So we're creating a de facto system that privileges wealthier migrants. Right, 2959 02:47:32,879 --> 02:47:35,760 Speaker 5: ten twelve thousand United States dollars is a lot of 2960 02:47:35,840 --> 02:47:38,360 Speaker 5: money if you're coming from large parts of the world. 2961 02:47:38,640 --> 02:47:41,520 Speaker 5: We're waging so much lower, Right, So having that kind 2962 02:47:41,560 --> 02:47:43,320 Speaker 5: of money isn't something that people who may be in 2963 02:47:43,400 --> 02:47:48,640 Speaker 5: desperate need of help would have. For instance, yesterday I 2964 02:47:48,720 --> 02:47:51,600 Speaker 5: was speaking to a USD family. Is ed however you 2965 02:47:51,640 --> 02:47:55,440 Speaker 5: want to say it who people will be familiar with 2966 02:47:55,480 --> 02:47:58,879 Speaker 5: the way their community was treated by isis right. 2967 02:47:58,959 --> 02:47:59,199 Speaker 7: There. 2968 02:47:59,720 --> 02:48:04,960 Speaker 5: Some of the worst genocidal and misogynist violence that we've 2969 02:48:04,959 --> 02:48:08,560 Speaker 5: seen this century was enounted upon that community. They're coming 2970 02:48:08,600 --> 02:48:12,680 Speaker 5: to the United States to be safe, and I don't 2971 02:48:12,680 --> 02:48:14,800 Speaker 5: think those people would have had the money to get 2972 02:48:14,840 --> 02:48:20,640 Speaker 5: together for a hearing. Right they speak Kurdish. I've never 2973 02:48:20,720 --> 02:48:23,320 Speaker 5: encountered about a patrol agent who speaks Kurdish. Right, So 2974 02:48:23,879 --> 02:48:25,880 Speaker 5: they would have to make their claim on arrival. They 2975 02:48:25,879 --> 02:48:30,720 Speaker 5: could be immediately rejected. They could if they fail their 2976 02:48:30,720 --> 02:48:34,879 Speaker 5: asylum interview, they could be placed in this expedited removal 2977 02:48:34,920 --> 02:48:37,520 Speaker 5: process by which they wouldn't have a right to a 2978 02:48:37,560 --> 02:48:40,600 Speaker 5: court hearing, a lawyer or translator, all those things. And 2979 02:48:40,640 --> 02:48:43,360 Speaker 5: the final thing that they've indicated that they want to do, 2980 02:48:44,320 --> 02:48:46,959 Speaker 5: and I think this is the most bizarre one, is 2981 02:48:47,000 --> 02:48:50,160 Speaker 5: that they have decided that they want to mandate the 2982 02:48:50,200 --> 02:48:57,840 Speaker 5: detention of certain migrants while their claims are adjudicated. This one, 2983 02:48:58,240 --> 02:49:00,760 Speaker 5: it seems like obviously like a massive session into this 2984 02:49:01,040 --> 02:49:04,440 Speaker 5: sort of insane Republican right wing sort of demand that 2985 02:49:04,480 --> 02:49:06,240 Speaker 5: we criminalize all asylum seekers. 2986 02:49:06,240 --> 02:49:09,240 Speaker 1: And I think, which I want to say something like 2987 02:49:09,320 --> 02:49:11,320 Speaker 1: for a second about this too, because like, yeah, you know, 2988 02:49:11,600 --> 02:49:14,160 Speaker 1: one of the ways that all this whole anti migranting 2989 02:49:14,480 --> 02:49:16,560 Speaker 1: is ramped up, like when I was a kid, like 2990 02:49:16,560 --> 02:49:18,480 Speaker 1: because there was, you know, I was like growing up 2991 02:49:18,480 --> 02:49:22,000 Speaker 1: when this this first sort of like anti immigration hysteria 2992 02:49:22,040 --> 02:49:25,280 Speaker 1: was like ramping up. And back then the hysteria was 2993 02:49:25,360 --> 02:49:29,240 Speaker 1: illegal immigration. It's like this stuff is all legal, Like 2994 02:49:29,480 --> 02:49:32,520 Speaker 1: you have the legal Like these are literally people doing 2995 02:49:32,680 --> 02:49:36,400 Speaker 1: legal immigration. Yeah, they and we're just here now where 2996 02:49:36,400 --> 02:49:38,000 Speaker 1: it's like no, like like you try you, if you 2997 02:49:38,040 --> 02:49:41,160 Speaker 1: attempt to come into the US legally, we are going 2998 02:49:41,200 --> 02:49:44,600 Speaker 1: to fucking put you in a camp. Like it's fucking insane. 2999 02:49:44,879 --> 02:49:47,600 Speaker 1: It's like like this is shit that like even like 3000 02:49:47,680 --> 02:49:50,360 Speaker 1: fifteen years ago people would have been like what the 3001 02:49:50,400 --> 02:49:53,039 Speaker 1: fuck are you talking about. But the way that the 3002 02:49:53,080 --> 02:49:54,680 Speaker 1: way that this has been accelerated and this is something 3003 02:49:54,680 --> 02:49:56,119 Speaker 1: that's and you know, and like the fact that Biden 3004 02:49:56,240 --> 02:49:58,400 Speaker 1: is fucking just like just going like oh yeah, yeah, 3005 02:49:58,480 --> 02:49:59,760 Speaker 1: yeah we should this is this is fine, Like we're 3006 02:49:59,800 --> 02:50:01,640 Speaker 1: gonna like this is this is stuff that would have 3007 02:50:01,680 --> 02:50:05,400 Speaker 1: been unimaginable for a Republican president in the two thousands. Yeah. 3008 02:50:05,760 --> 02:50:07,880 Speaker 1: Like the thing about this too, is that none of 3009 02:50:07,920 --> 02:50:10,320 Speaker 1: this would have been possible without democratic implicity. This is 3010 02:50:10,320 --> 02:50:11,840 Speaker 1: this is just the way the system has worked this 3011 02:50:12,000 --> 02:50:13,320 Speaker 1: entire time. Right there is the reason they called a 3012 02:50:13,360 --> 02:50:15,440 Speaker 1: bomb of the deporter in chief, because he was the 3013 02:50:15,440 --> 02:50:19,320 Speaker 1: guy who could could have actually turned the tide against 3014 02:50:19,320 --> 02:50:20,960 Speaker 1: this stuff and just didn't and was just like, fuck you, 3015 02:50:20,959 --> 02:50:24,120 Speaker 1: We're gonna deport millions of people. And that's that's how 3016 02:50:24,160 --> 02:50:26,760 Speaker 1: we're fucking here with this shit over again. People who 3017 02:50:26,840 --> 02:50:29,280 Speaker 1: are literally coming through the country legally, which is what 3018 02:50:29,320 --> 02:50:31,840 Speaker 1: all these people said, spent all this fucking time saying 3019 02:50:31,840 --> 02:50:32,640 Speaker 1: you're supposed to be doing. 3020 02:50:34,400 --> 02:50:36,840 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I think the claim of Biden administration 3021 02:50:36,920 --> 02:50:39,840 Speaker 5: is I don't fucking know, like they want people to 3022 02:50:39,879 --> 02:50:43,480 Speaker 5: use CBP one, right. CBP one is the biggest fucking 3023 02:50:43,520 --> 02:50:48,600 Speaker 5: disaster in applications. I can't think of anything. I don't know. 3024 02:50:48,800 --> 02:50:51,000 Speaker 5: It's like as bad as fucking Testa's auto pilot, if 3025 02:50:51,000 --> 02:50:53,400 Speaker 5: Testa's auto pilot got to decide your whole future. Right, 3026 02:50:54,000 --> 02:50:57,480 Speaker 5: Every single person I have met at the Southern border 3027 02:50:57,680 --> 02:51:01,520 Speaker 5: has tried CBP one. People but an't Like, no one 3028 02:51:01,680 --> 02:51:05,279 Speaker 5: wants to pay someone to drive them off road across 3029 02:51:05,280 --> 02:51:09,320 Speaker 5: the desert to a shitty hole in the wall in 3030 02:51:09,360 --> 02:51:13,360 Speaker 5: the middle of the freezing mountain range eighty miles east 3031 02:51:13,400 --> 02:51:16,480 Speaker 5: of here, and then to sit with their children while 3032 02:51:16,520 --> 02:51:21,280 Speaker 5: it rains, snows, freezes, and wait for one, two, three 3033 02:51:21,560 --> 02:51:25,879 Speaker 5: nights in this shitty conditions, with maybe a tent that 3034 02:51:25,920 --> 02:51:28,520 Speaker 5: we dumps to dive from a Susan g Comen event, right, 3035 02:51:29,520 --> 02:51:32,600 Speaker 5: or maybe if they're really lucky, like a yurt that 3036 02:51:32,720 --> 02:51:36,200 Speaker 5: me and my friend's built from palaps right. And no 3037 02:51:36,240 --> 02:51:38,160 Speaker 5: one in their right mind would want to do that. 3038 02:51:38,200 --> 02:51:40,400 Speaker 5: These people don't want to do that. They've tried fucking 3039 02:51:40,440 --> 02:51:44,160 Speaker 5: CBP one. Most of them who I have spoken to 3040 02:51:44,280 --> 02:51:49,360 Speaker 5: are carrying visa rejection letters, right. They've been to embassies 3041 02:51:49,480 --> 02:51:53,080 Speaker 5: all around the world, have just been summarily dismissed. They 3042 02:51:53,080 --> 02:51:56,480 Speaker 5: don't give a reason for rejecting your visa, right, and 3043 02:51:57,080 --> 02:52:00,240 Speaker 5: they've exhausted all their options. No one wants to spend 3044 02:52:00,240 --> 02:52:03,880 Speaker 5: their life savings and walk across the desert. It's dangerous, right, 3045 02:52:04,200 --> 02:52:07,120 Speaker 5: but that is the only way they can do it. 3046 02:52:07,160 --> 02:52:09,760 Speaker 5: And as you say, it is perfectly legal to enter 3047 02:52:09,800 --> 02:52:12,959 Speaker 5: the country between ports of entry and immediately surrender to 3048 02:52:13,040 --> 02:52:16,160 Speaker 5: the first law enforcement agent you see to claim asylum. 3049 02:52:16,600 --> 02:52:19,600 Speaker 5: That that is how one claims asylum when one is 3050 02:52:20,720 --> 02:52:24,480 Speaker 5: fleeing persecution. And when we have shut the door through 3051 02:52:24,520 --> 02:52:27,840 Speaker 5: this stupid app that only recognizes white faces and crashes 3052 02:52:27,879 --> 02:52:31,680 Speaker 5: all the time and isn't in those languages, and it's 3053 02:52:31,800 --> 02:52:34,200 Speaker 5: entirely understandable that people are taken this route. We have 3054 02:52:34,400 --> 02:52:38,080 Speaker 5: cooked the bottler of migration and then shaken it up 3055 02:52:38,200 --> 02:52:42,000 Speaker 5: right for three years with Title forty two, which is 3056 02:52:42,040 --> 02:52:45,760 Speaker 5: this Trump era policy that co opted the COVID pandemic, 3057 02:52:45,800 --> 02:52:48,400 Speaker 5: which they allowed to rip through large segments of the 3058 02:52:48,480 --> 02:52:51,720 Speaker 5: United States community and pretended that by expelling migrants are 3059 02:52:51,760 --> 02:52:55,840 Speaker 5: protecting us. It didn't have any provisions for vaccination, it 3060 02:52:55,879 --> 02:52:58,080 Speaker 5: didn't have any COVID testing. It was just a cynical 3061 02:52:58,080 --> 02:53:01,600 Speaker 5: attempt to use the pandemic, and we've seen through public 3062 02:53:01,640 --> 02:53:04,440 Speaker 5: records request is something they've planned long in advance to 3063 02:53:05,120 --> 02:53:08,160 Speaker 5: evict people from this country without giving them a chance 3064 02:53:08,200 --> 02:53:11,640 Speaker 5: of an asylum hearing, and now Biden is doing it 3065 02:53:11,800 --> 02:53:15,160 Speaker 5: without even the pretense of an excuse. Right, at least 3066 02:53:15,200 --> 02:53:19,480 Speaker 5: Trump made up some bullshit it was transparent, but Biden 3067 02:53:19,600 --> 02:53:23,680 Speaker 5: isn't even bothering to do that, and he's just going 3068 02:53:23,720 --> 02:53:25,680 Speaker 5: to boot these people back into a place where they're 3069 02:53:25,720 --> 02:53:28,240 Speaker 5: going to be vulnerable. I've spoken to migrants who have 3070 02:53:28,400 --> 02:53:33,600 Speaker 5: been abused, who have been robbed in Mexico. It's not 3071 02:53:33,640 --> 02:53:36,119 Speaker 5: a safe place of vulnerable people, and the more vulnerable 3072 02:53:36,160 --> 02:53:37,920 Speaker 5: people you put into it, they're less safe. It's going 3073 02:53:37,959 --> 02:53:40,600 Speaker 5: to get and nor is it. Mexico's a fucking problem, right, 3074 02:53:40,720 --> 02:53:44,320 Speaker 5: Like Henry Kissinger didn't fucking run Mexican policy and then 3075 02:53:44,360 --> 02:53:46,800 Speaker 5: get to live to one hundred and die in his bed. Right. 3076 02:53:47,040 --> 02:53:50,360 Speaker 5: It's a lot of these countries people are coming from. 3077 02:53:51,000 --> 02:53:53,760 Speaker 5: They're coming from because we fucked up their policy as 3078 02:53:53,760 --> 02:53:55,600 Speaker 5: a country. We fucked up their future. 3079 02:53:55,680 --> 02:53:55,840 Speaker 4: Right. 3080 02:53:55,879 --> 02:54:00,000 Speaker 5: We did this neo colonial thing where we stole everything 3081 02:54:00,080 --> 02:54:02,840 Speaker 5: we thought was a value. We impose dictators upon them 3082 02:54:02,879 --> 02:54:07,440 Speaker 5: when they chose socialist or more progressive regimes, and then 3083 02:54:07,600 --> 02:54:09,120 Speaker 5: we'd split our hands up in the air and said, no, 3084 02:54:09,160 --> 02:54:12,320 Speaker 5: you can't come here to no space. Sorry, and it's 3085 02:54:12,600 --> 02:54:15,880 Speaker 5: it's fucking inexcusable and it's abhorrent me. Do you know 3086 02:54:15,959 --> 02:54:17,840 Speaker 5: what else is inexcusable and abhorrent? 3087 02:54:18,879 --> 02:54:21,280 Speaker 1: Is it the products and services that it is marketing 3088 02:54:21,320 --> 02:54:21,879 Speaker 1: on the show? 3089 02:54:22,959 --> 02:54:23,400 Speaker 2: Yeah? 3090 02:54:23,600 --> 02:54:28,160 Speaker 5: Yes, the products and services that we so greatly loath. 3091 02:54:28,560 --> 02:54:30,200 Speaker 5: Oh hang on, I got something say about the fucking 3092 02:54:30,240 --> 02:54:33,040 Speaker 5: products and services. We're doing this now because we've got time. 3093 02:54:33,240 --> 02:54:36,120 Speaker 5: There was an advert for Novo Nordiskingna podcast the other day, 3094 02:54:36,240 --> 02:54:38,119 Speaker 5: and I just want to take this opportunity to say 3095 02:54:38,120 --> 02:54:41,760 Speaker 5: an extra special fuck you to them, because I have 3096 02:54:41,920 --> 02:54:44,360 Speaker 5: held in my hands a little fucking children who have 3097 02:54:44,480 --> 02:54:47,040 Speaker 5: died because they can't afford insulin. And the reason they 3098 02:54:47,080 --> 02:54:50,520 Speaker 5: have died is because these fucking ghouls want to extract 3099 02:54:50,560 --> 02:54:52,800 Speaker 5: every penny out of those of us who have diabetes. 3100 02:54:53,440 --> 02:54:55,400 Speaker 5: So I'm sorry that you heard those adverts and you 3101 02:54:55,440 --> 02:54:59,560 Speaker 5: won't ever again. But here's some other adverts we are 3102 02:54:59,560 --> 02:55:05,520 Speaker 5: back without, hopefully adverts for evil pharmaceutical companies. It's me 3103 02:55:05,560 --> 02:55:08,400 Speaker 5: and me and we're talking about Joe Brandon and his 3104 02:55:08,480 --> 02:55:11,879 Speaker 5: terrible immigration policy. So the final part of this, and 3105 02:55:11,920 --> 02:55:17,280 Speaker 5: perhaps the most bizarre one, is that the White House 3106 02:55:18,000 --> 02:55:22,000 Speaker 5: mandating the detention of these migrants pending their claims. The 3107 02:55:22,160 --> 02:55:26,920 Speaker 5: US has never had enough enough detention space to do this, 3108 02:55:27,240 --> 02:55:32,160 Speaker 5: and we don't now. It remains extremely fucking unclear how 3109 02:55:32,200 --> 02:55:34,840 Speaker 5: this will be done. I will say that there was 3110 02:55:34,879 --> 02:55:36,840 Speaker 5: a big fuss made me and maybe remember this, that 3111 02:55:36,840 --> 02:55:40,880 Speaker 5: Biden was canceling private prison contracts when he first came 3112 02:55:40,920 --> 02:55:43,160 Speaker 5: into our office. Do you remember his executive order on 3113 02:55:43,200 --> 02:55:48,160 Speaker 5: this vaguely? Yeah, yeah, I think it got a lot 3114 02:55:48,200 --> 02:55:52,720 Speaker 5: of attention that may have specifically applied to people who 3115 02:55:52,720 --> 02:55:56,440 Speaker 5: are in federal criminal incarceration, it's certainly never applied to 3116 02:55:56,480 --> 02:56:00,240 Speaker 5: people seeking asylum because those people have always been detained 3117 02:56:00,280 --> 02:56:03,960 Speaker 5: by third party contractors like cor Civic right, and they 3118 02:56:04,000 --> 02:56:08,000 Speaker 5: continue to be so into the Biden administration because again, right, 3119 02:56:08,080 --> 02:56:11,800 Speaker 5: it is seemingly the implicit policy of the Democratic Party 3120 02:56:11,840 --> 02:56:15,320 Speaker 5: that these people are of less value and have fewer 3121 02:56:15,400 --> 02:56:22,560 Speaker 5: rights than US citizens or then people seeking permanent residents 3122 02:56:22,600 --> 02:56:24,160 Speaker 5: in this country through other means. 3123 02:56:25,120 --> 02:56:28,320 Speaker 1: You know, one of the things I was, I was 3124 02:56:28,360 --> 02:56:31,800 Speaker 1: doing this for other reasons for not this story, but 3125 02:56:31,840 --> 02:56:33,760 Speaker 1: I was going back through when I was reading the 3126 02:56:34,640 --> 02:56:38,400 Speaker 1: Democratic Party platform from twenty twenty And if you go 3127 02:56:38,520 --> 02:56:41,280 Speaker 1: back and read the Democratic Party platform from twenty twenty eight, 3128 02:56:41,320 --> 02:56:44,720 Speaker 1: the opening thing is them talking about how they're they're 3129 02:56:44,760 --> 02:56:47,560 Speaker 1: when they're in power, they're going to do us need 3130 02:56:47,600 --> 02:56:50,599 Speaker 1: to dismantle structure of racism in this country. 3131 02:56:51,000 --> 02:56:51,600 Speaker 7: Fuck me. 3132 02:56:52,560 --> 02:56:56,680 Speaker 1: And it's like my ass, like and this is one 3133 02:56:56,680 --> 02:56:59,240 Speaker 1: of these these really really sort of grim things about this, right, 3134 02:56:59,400 --> 02:57:06,240 Speaker 1: is like the Democrats really really cynically capitalized off of, like, uh, 3135 02:57:06,560 --> 02:57:10,200 Speaker 1: like people's revulsion at the fucking horrible stuff doing it 3136 02:57:10,200 --> 02:57:11,879 Speaker 1: at the border, and then they got into power, they 3137 02:57:11,879 --> 02:57:14,640 Speaker 1: did all the same shit, and nobody fucking cares now, 3138 02:57:14,680 --> 02:57:17,160 Speaker 1: because that's that's literally what the Democrats are there for, right, 3139 02:57:17,200 --> 02:57:21,400 Speaker 1: They're there to the diffuse people's ability capacity a desire 3140 02:57:21,440 --> 02:57:25,000 Speaker 1: to resist doing the exact same fucking things Republicans are doing, 3141 02:57:25,720 --> 02:57:28,600 Speaker 1: and it's really effective. And the consequence of this is 3142 02:57:28,640 --> 02:57:31,920 Speaker 1: that now we're fucking here with like trying to bring 3143 02:57:31,959 --> 02:57:34,360 Speaker 1: fucking the same shit Trump was doing back. 3144 02:57:35,680 --> 02:57:38,920 Speaker 5: Yeah, and you're right, like so many people poured so 3145 02:57:39,200 --> 02:57:43,440 Speaker 5: much rage and passion into like I'm sure you can 3146 02:57:43,480 --> 02:57:46,560 Speaker 5: remember the whole no More Kids and cagey think, yeah, 3147 02:57:46,760 --> 02:57:47,440 Speaker 5: I will. 3148 02:57:47,720 --> 02:57:50,000 Speaker 1: I will say this. I was always kind of cynical 3149 02:57:50,000 --> 02:57:52,080 Speaker 1: about that because I fucking remember Occupy Ice. Now, I 3150 02:57:52,120 --> 02:57:54,000 Speaker 1: remember all those fucking liberals who told me they'd be 3151 02:57:54,000 --> 02:57:56,400 Speaker 1: marching in the streets just fucking abandoning us and leaving 3152 02:57:56,440 --> 02:57:58,840 Speaker 1: us to like deal with the fucking cops on our own. 3153 02:57:59,200 --> 02:58:00,920 Speaker 1: So like, I think, I think it is like there's 3154 02:58:00,959 --> 02:58:03,280 Speaker 1: been a sort of mythologization to some extent of how 3155 02:58:03,320 --> 02:58:05,279 Speaker 1: willing people were to actually do shit it or Trump, 3156 02:58:05,640 --> 02:58:08,560 Speaker 1: but they sure is fuck not here under Biden. So 3157 02:58:08,920 --> 02:58:09,959 Speaker 1: then yeah, there. 3158 02:58:09,760 --> 02:58:11,640 Speaker 5: Ain't no one in the street saying no more kids 3159 02:58:11,680 --> 02:58:16,040 Speaker 5: in cages now, right, Like then, here for the little 3160 02:58:16,120 --> 02:58:19,879 Speaker 5: children I've met, you know, day in day out for 3161 02:58:19,920 --> 02:58:22,320 Speaker 5: the last six months, who are going to be detained, 3162 02:58:22,320 --> 02:58:24,160 Speaker 5: who might be separated for their families. 3163 02:58:24,400 --> 02:58:26,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I want to this is kind of off 3164 02:58:26,920 --> 02:58:30,520 Speaker 1: topic too, but like, so this is this is a story. 3165 02:58:30,560 --> 02:58:32,240 Speaker 1: Like at some point I'm going to do an actual 3166 02:58:32,280 --> 02:58:36,600 Speaker 1: episode about this. There's been I've been I've been trying 3167 02:58:36,640 --> 02:58:38,800 Speaker 1: to get to talk to people about this for a bit. 3168 02:58:38,959 --> 02:58:41,280 Speaker 1: But so there's been a whole bunch of shit with 3169 02:58:41,360 --> 02:58:43,560 Speaker 1: a lot of So one of these subsequent things that 3170 02:58:43,720 --> 02:58:47,160 Speaker 1: was happening with all these people is that like the 3171 02:58:47,200 --> 02:58:50,599 Speaker 1: government in Texas has been like shipping them to random cities. 3172 02:58:50,720 --> 02:58:52,959 Speaker 1: So a bunch of people have been shipped to Chicago 3173 02:58:53,000 --> 02:58:55,520 Speaker 1: and it turned and there they're eventually were protests here. 3174 02:58:55,600 --> 02:59:01,000 Speaker 1: But like our fucking progressive mayor tried to have a 3175 02:59:01,360 --> 02:59:04,880 Speaker 1: basically a concentration camp company set up like a camp 3176 02:59:05,120 --> 02:59:08,080 Speaker 1: for these people on land that it turned out have 3177 02:59:08,160 --> 02:59:13,160 Speaker 1: been a toxic waste dump and only just didn't do 3178 02:59:13,240 --> 02:59:16,080 Speaker 1: I I don't even think he ever backed up the 3179 02:59:16,959 --> 02:59:19,200 Speaker 1: A story here is kind of I think what happened, 3180 02:59:19,240 --> 02:59:22,560 Speaker 1: if I'm remembering correctly, is that the governor was like, 3181 02:59:23,040 --> 02:59:24,959 Speaker 1: like pritz Crew was like, what the fuck are you doing? 3182 02:59:25,000 --> 02:59:28,000 Speaker 1: You can't have this stuff beyond a toxic waste site. 3183 02:59:28,680 --> 02:59:31,320 Speaker 1: But so that's like temporarily been stopped. Like that's that's 3184 02:59:31,360 --> 02:59:33,800 Speaker 1: the kind of shit that's happening, like in you know, 3185 02:59:33,840 --> 02:59:37,880 Speaker 1: like like Brandon Johnson like nominally is one of the 3186 02:59:37,920 --> 02:59:39,920 Speaker 1: most left wing mayors in the US, And this is 3187 02:59:40,000 --> 02:59:42,280 Speaker 1: what is fucking happening even in this from of the 3188 02:59:42,280 --> 02:59:45,560 Speaker 1: sort of progressive wing the Democratic Party, like the concern 3189 02:59:45,760 --> 02:59:50,039 Speaker 1: like the the Joe Biden conservative wing is like even 3190 02:59:50,120 --> 02:59:52,160 Speaker 1: worse on this stuff. 3191 02:59:52,800 --> 02:59:57,039 Speaker 5: Yeah, and like the entire Democratic Party in so much 3192 02:59:57,160 --> 03:00:00,000 Speaker 5: is ass And there was a time when it genuinely 3193 03:00:00,120 --> 03:00:02,480 Speaker 5: did show up for people trying to come to this 3194 03:00:02,520 --> 03:00:06,760 Speaker 5: country to seek asylum. At least it wouldn't. This is 3195 03:00:06,800 --> 03:00:09,320 Speaker 5: like the immigration system is like a ratchet and it 3196 03:00:09,320 --> 03:00:13,160 Speaker 5: only moves to the right, and under democratic government it 3197 03:00:13,160 --> 03:00:16,800 Speaker 5: wouldn't move to the right. It does now. And this 3198 03:00:16,920 --> 03:00:21,240 Speaker 5: means that there is not an electoral option for you, right, 3199 03:00:21,320 --> 03:00:24,680 Speaker 5: you cannot just vote if you give a single fuck 3200 03:00:24,879 --> 03:00:28,120 Speaker 5: about innocent people living outside of this country wanting to 3201 03:00:28,120 --> 03:00:29,080 Speaker 5: come here and be safe. 3202 03:00:29,120 --> 03:00:29,520 Speaker 4: You don't. 3203 03:00:30,040 --> 03:00:32,240 Speaker 5: There is nothing on the ballot box for you to 3204 03:00:32,320 --> 03:00:37,800 Speaker 5: tick that represents a serious option. And that's sad. Yeah, 3205 03:00:37,800 --> 03:00:40,720 Speaker 5: it's a pretty fucked reflection of our electoral politics. But 3206 03:00:40,840 --> 03:00:45,400 Speaker 5: I think it also impels us to look look at 3207 03:00:45,440 --> 03:00:47,560 Speaker 5: someone who believes that there is not a ballot box 3208 03:00:47,600 --> 03:00:50,840 Speaker 5: option that is going to deliver us a system with 3209 03:00:50,920 --> 03:00:56,280 Speaker 5: dignity and democracy and justice. Anyway, I think this is 3210 03:00:56,440 --> 03:00:59,840 Speaker 5: where we have to step up and do the stuff 3211 03:01:00,080 --> 03:01:03,640 Speaker 5: we always talk about. Like this happened a little bit 3212 03:01:03,680 --> 03:01:05,360 Speaker 5: in twenty twenty, it happened a little bit under Trump, 3213 03:01:05,400 --> 03:01:08,200 Speaker 5: but like now, more than ever, the need to do 3214 03:01:08,320 --> 03:01:11,760 Speaker 5: mutual aid, especially for migrants, but also for and house 3215 03:01:11,760 --> 03:01:15,520 Speaker 5: people within your community, for all the fucking human detritus 3216 03:01:15,600 --> 03:01:19,840 Speaker 5: of Joe Biden's dogshit governance. It's right now, and like 3217 03:01:21,200 --> 03:01:24,520 Speaker 5: it is as I've seen personally, within the power of 3218 03:01:24,560 --> 03:01:27,000 Speaker 5: a very small group of people to impact the lives 3219 03:01:27,000 --> 03:01:30,240 Speaker 5: of a very large group of people through organizing. I've 3220 03:01:30,560 --> 03:01:33,920 Speaker 5: participated in mutual aid for a while. I'm sure many 3221 03:01:33,959 --> 03:01:35,800 Speaker 5: of the people are listening have as well. But like 3222 03:01:35,879 --> 03:01:39,920 Speaker 5: if you if you haven't found the play or the 3223 03:01:40,000 --> 03:01:43,440 Speaker 5: way to do so, Like it's it's a great time 3224 03:01:43,440 --> 03:01:47,640 Speaker 5: to start organizing something. The options in the next electoral 3225 03:01:47,720 --> 03:01:49,800 Speaker 5: cycle are that things get worse or that things get 3226 03:01:49,879 --> 03:01:52,920 Speaker 5: much worse. I don't think we have an option which 3227 03:01:53,000 --> 03:01:57,920 Speaker 5: is dismantling the structural racism that is within the United States, 3228 03:01:58,800 --> 03:02:01,000 Speaker 5: or even just not hunching down on some of the 3229 03:02:01,000 --> 03:02:03,959 Speaker 5: most vulnerable people in the world, it would appear. And 3230 03:02:04,640 --> 03:02:08,279 Speaker 5: so to protect those people, it follows upon our communities. 3231 03:02:08,280 --> 03:02:11,320 Speaker 5: And that's that's a big burden to shoulder, right, When 3232 03:02:11,360 --> 03:02:14,840 Speaker 5: the state has enough money to send one thousand pound 3233 03:02:14,879 --> 03:02:17,640 Speaker 5: bomb States rail, that means that we have to pay 3234 03:02:17,640 --> 03:02:18,959 Speaker 5: for beans for hungry children. 3235 03:02:19,680 --> 03:02:22,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, And I mean the thing that this too, 3236 03:02:22,240 --> 03:02:25,680 Speaker 1: right is like if you if you spent the amount 3237 03:02:25,720 --> 03:02:29,240 Speaker 1: of money that the US was spending on trying to 3238 03:02:29,280 --> 03:02:32,000 Speaker 1: keep people out of the country on just like giving 3239 03:02:32,240 --> 03:02:34,440 Speaker 1: like if you just gave that money to the same 3240 03:02:34,560 --> 03:02:37,120 Speaker 1: those same people, we wouldn't be having this problem right now. 3241 03:02:37,600 --> 03:02:40,280 Speaker 1: Like it isn't like putting people in a prison is 3242 03:02:40,280 --> 03:02:42,959 Speaker 1: like the least cost efficient way to do possibly do anything. 3243 03:02:42,959 --> 03:02:47,039 Speaker 1: And it doesn't matter because the whole point of this, 3244 03:02:47,160 --> 03:02:48,600 Speaker 1: like and this is one of these things with the 3245 03:02:48,600 --> 03:02:50,440 Speaker 1: sort of ratchet, right is, eventually you're going to get 3246 03:02:50,480 --> 03:02:54,400 Speaker 1: to fucking like you know, I mean, like the situation 3247 03:02:54,440 --> 03:02:56,039 Speaker 1: we have now right now in Greece where you have 3248 03:02:56,240 --> 03:02:59,520 Speaker 1: effectively a fascist government who's up like pot Like when 3249 03:02:59,720 --> 03:03:02,440 Speaker 1: like when when boastload boatloads and people go down to 3250 03:03:02,480 --> 03:03:05,000 Speaker 1: the Mediterranean, like go down to the Mediterraneans, ever a hundred 3251 03:03:05,000 --> 03:03:08,040 Speaker 1: people die, their popularity goes up because you know, and 3252 03:03:08,080 --> 03:03:09,720 Speaker 1: then and this is the thing you're gonna, We're gonna, 3253 03:03:09,959 --> 03:03:12,640 Speaker 1: We're We're not that far away from in the fucking us. 3254 03:03:12,879 --> 03:03:18,440 Speaker 1: Is the Republican demand in like maybe like eight maybe 3255 03:03:18,480 --> 03:03:21,040 Speaker 1: ten years is going to be just shooting like literally 3256 03:03:21,080 --> 03:03:22,640 Speaker 1: just machine guns at the border like that. This is 3257 03:03:22,640 --> 03:03:24,320 Speaker 1: this is, this is where this is fucking going, right. 3258 03:03:24,680 --> 03:03:27,040 Speaker 5: You haven't seen the replies to my to my posts. 3259 03:03:27,360 --> 03:03:28,160 Speaker 4: Don't like when. 3260 03:03:28,040 --> 03:03:30,280 Speaker 1: When I when I say, I mean like like this 3261 03:03:30,320 --> 03:03:32,160 Speaker 1: is gonna be the demand of the fucking House, like 3262 03:03:32,160 --> 03:03:35,000 Speaker 1: Republican caucus, right like this is this is, this is 3263 03:03:35,040 --> 03:03:37,640 Speaker 1: where this is fucking going. And the Democrats, like you know, 3264 03:03:37,680 --> 03:03:39,920 Speaker 1: and the Democrats will take power fucking twelve years later 3265 03:03:40,000 --> 03:03:41,720 Speaker 1: and be like, well, we're only going to shoot some 3266 03:03:41,800 --> 03:03:43,480 Speaker 1: of the people at the border. People are gonna call 3267 03:03:43,480 --> 03:03:47,080 Speaker 1: this progress, right, and the only way that this can 3268 03:03:47,080 --> 03:03:49,160 Speaker 1: be and this this cannot be stopped by voting for 3269 03:03:49,200 --> 03:03:52,640 Speaker 1: the Democrats. This is like, you know, and like people 3270 03:03:52,680 --> 03:03:55,000 Speaker 1: people thought this about Obama and people also thought this 3271 03:03:55,000 --> 03:03:56,520 Speaker 1: about Biden, was that we're going to vote for these 3272 03:03:56,520 --> 03:03:59,240 Speaker 1: people because they're going to be good on immigration, and 3273 03:04:00,440 --> 03:04:02,200 Speaker 1: like this is the reason why we're all fucking are 3274 03:04:02,240 --> 03:04:07,160 Speaker 1: where we are now. So like there is no solution 3275 03:04:07,280 --> 03:04:12,560 Speaker 1: to this that doesn't revolve around like fundamental systemic change 3276 03:04:12,600 --> 03:04:15,959 Speaker 1: to what the US is, because otherwise we're just going 3277 03:04:16,000 --> 03:04:18,199 Speaker 1: to every single fucking year, we're going to be back here. 3278 03:04:18,760 --> 03:04:22,680 Speaker 5: Yeah. Talking of being back here, we weed to a 3279 03:04:22,680 --> 03:04:25,640 Speaker 5: second advertising pivot. I think right that there are two 3280 03:04:25,640 --> 03:04:29,200 Speaker 5: mid roles in these yeah. Yeah, So we are back 3281 03:04:29,240 --> 03:04:32,720 Speaker 5: here once again lamenting the fact that we have to 3282 03:04:32,760 --> 03:04:35,680 Speaker 5: introduce these adverts for you here. You are all right, 3283 03:04:35,720 --> 03:04:38,680 Speaker 5: and we have returned to lament the decline of the 3284 03:04:38,800 --> 03:04:42,040 Speaker 5: United States. I wanted to talk briefly about what title 3285 03:04:42,160 --> 03:04:44,600 Speaker 5: forty two does to migration flow. 3286 03:04:44,800 --> 03:04:45,000 Speaker 4: Right. 3287 03:04:45,879 --> 03:04:47,680 Speaker 5: As many of you will be aware, Donald Trump has 3288 03:04:47,720 --> 03:04:49,920 Speaker 5: built a big, beautiful wall along the southern border of 3289 03:04:49,920 --> 03:04:52,840 Speaker 5: the United States. The caveat to that being only some 3290 03:04:53,000 --> 03:04:55,440 Speaker 5: of it, and that they didn't do the hard parts. 3291 03:04:55,560 --> 03:04:55,800 Speaker 7: Right. 3292 03:04:55,879 --> 03:04:59,560 Speaker 5: So the places in Hakumbo where people are entering our 3293 03:04:59,640 --> 03:05:03,680 Speaker 5: gaps in the war, right, there are camps at three 3294 03:05:03,680 --> 03:05:07,200 Speaker 5: of these gaps over about a fifteen mile area. There 3295 03:05:07,240 --> 03:05:09,879 Speaker 5: are gaps all up and down the wall. Right, And 3296 03:05:09,920 --> 03:05:13,040 Speaker 5: you'll very often see people saying, oh, you couldn't climb 3297 03:05:13,080 --> 03:05:14,600 Speaker 5: this war. Doesn't matter. You just walk along until you 3298 03:05:14,600 --> 03:05:16,199 Speaker 5: find a gap and get through. You also can climb 3299 03:05:16,240 --> 03:05:17,840 Speaker 5: the war. We've seen people climb the war. We've seen 3300 03:05:17,840 --> 03:05:21,959 Speaker 5: people cut it with angle grinders. Right. But what happens 3301 03:05:22,000 --> 03:05:24,640 Speaker 5: with Title forty two, what happens right now, under what's 3302 03:05:24,640 --> 03:05:27,320 Speaker 5: called Title eight of the United States Immigration Law, people 3303 03:05:27,720 --> 03:05:31,160 Speaker 5: enter the country through a gap in the wall, and 3304 03:05:31,200 --> 03:05:34,520 Speaker 5: they wait and they surrender to a border patrol agent 3305 03:05:34,600 --> 03:05:36,560 Speaker 5: and say I'm here to claim the silent Right. Then 3306 03:05:36,600 --> 03:05:39,040 Speaker 5: they end up in these open air detention sites in Cucumber, 3307 03:05:39,040 --> 03:05:42,560 Speaker 5: et cetera. What happens in a Title forty two is 3308 03:05:42,560 --> 03:05:44,520 Speaker 5: that if you think you're going to be bounced directly 3309 03:05:44,520 --> 03:05:47,000 Speaker 5: back to Mexico, and you believe that you aren't safe there, 3310 03:05:47,760 --> 03:05:51,800 Speaker 5: you attempt to avoid border patrol right, And so you 3311 03:05:51,879 --> 03:05:54,720 Speaker 5: go to the places where they're going to be watching 3312 03:05:54,760 --> 03:05:57,240 Speaker 5: these gaps in the war, one would issue. So you 3313 03:05:57,320 --> 03:06:00,760 Speaker 5: go to the furthest places and the hardest places, highest places, 3314 03:06:00,800 --> 03:06:02,840 Speaker 5: in the most rugged places, right, and you try and 3315 03:06:02,959 --> 03:06:06,600 Speaker 5: walk through those routes instead, you try and walk through, 3316 03:06:06,600 --> 03:06:08,360 Speaker 5: for instance, Value of the Moon, which is just to 3317 03:06:08,400 --> 03:06:10,800 Speaker 5: the east of the Cumber where just last week, some 3318 03:06:10,879 --> 03:06:12,760 Speaker 5: of my friends are involved in the search and rescue 3319 03:06:12,800 --> 03:06:15,320 Speaker 5: operation for a four year old child who'd become separated 3320 03:06:15,320 --> 03:06:19,160 Speaker 5: from their family coming from Afghanistan, and then they found 3321 03:06:19,160 --> 03:06:23,840 Speaker 5: that child, fortunately, but fucking no one else would have 3322 03:06:23,879 --> 03:06:28,000 Speaker 5: done if they hadn't been there, right. The result of 3323 03:06:28,040 --> 03:06:32,600 Speaker 5: this is that people will die in greater numbers crossing 3324 03:06:32,600 --> 03:06:34,600 Speaker 5: our border. And that's what we saw rounder title forty 3325 03:06:34,600 --> 03:06:36,360 Speaker 5: two hunder Trump, and it's what we saw in title 3326 03:06:36,400 --> 03:06:41,280 Speaker 5: forty two on Biden, because there was that like I 3327 03:06:41,400 --> 03:06:43,840 Speaker 5: have attended, that you've heard about on this podcast, and 3328 03:06:43,879 --> 03:06:45,520 Speaker 5: the ones that they haven't and that you haven't heard 3329 03:06:45,560 --> 03:06:49,160 Speaker 5: about on this podcast are not going to stop because 3330 03:06:49,520 --> 03:06:51,879 Speaker 5: Joe Biden offered a concession to the Republicans. They will 3331 03:06:51,959 --> 03:06:56,440 Speaker 5: keep happening. The poverty that we have created in much 3332 03:06:56,480 --> 03:06:58,240 Speaker 5: of the world is not going to stop. It will 3333 03:06:58,280 --> 03:07:03,519 Speaker 5: keep happening. Transfer a thing that we have exported culturally, 3334 03:07:04,760 --> 03:07:08,560 Speaker 5: that film Branton Too, which definitely yeah, island of terms. 3335 03:07:09,560 --> 03:07:12,920 Speaker 1: It's a it's a colla. It's been a collaborative effort between. 3336 03:07:12,720 --> 03:07:15,440 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's what a special relationship is about it. 3337 03:07:16,560 --> 03:07:16,920 Speaker 1: JK. 3338 03:07:17,080 --> 03:07:19,440 Speaker 5: Rowling and Temple if there. 3339 03:07:19,600 --> 03:07:21,480 Speaker 1: The French are also complicit in this too. They're not 3340 03:07:21,480 --> 03:07:22,960 Speaker 1: getting sucking off the hook for this ship. 3341 03:07:23,320 --> 03:07:25,560 Speaker 5: But yeah, this is not the podcast and it's fronts 3342 03:07:25,600 --> 03:07:26,480 Speaker 5: off the hook for anything. 3343 03:07:26,560 --> 03:07:29,360 Speaker 1: But you know, like I mean, this is something I 3344 03:07:29,360 --> 03:07:34,240 Speaker 1: think you're getting at too. But like we in large part, 3345 03:07:34,440 --> 03:07:38,720 Speaker 1: like the US and the UK, are responsible for why 3346 03:07:38,760 --> 03:07:42,119 Speaker 1: transphobia is as bad as it is in Mexico right now, 3347 03:07:42,200 --> 03:07:44,960 Speaker 1: which is it is so much more like as bad 3348 03:07:45,000 --> 03:07:46,720 Speaker 1: as it is to be trans in the fucking US, 3349 03:07:46,800 --> 03:07:50,440 Speaker 1: it is so much worse in Mexico. Like the odds 3350 03:07:50,480 --> 03:07:54,800 Speaker 1: of you being killed are indescribable. Even if you're not 3351 03:07:54,920 --> 03:07:58,400 Speaker 1: fucking killed, there's you know, like, well, this is actually 3352 03:07:58,440 --> 03:08:02,320 Speaker 1: like the one of the episodes now third, what week 3353 03:08:02,360 --> 03:08:04,959 Speaker 1: will that be? The week after next? Like, yeah, I'm 3354 03:08:05,000 --> 03:08:08,600 Speaker 1: gonna we're going to replay the epithet like the interviews 3355 03:08:08,600 --> 03:08:11,920 Speaker 1: that I did with Maxice trans organizers talking about the 3356 03:08:12,000 --> 03:08:17,039 Speaker 1: turfs there because they are armed and they will fucking like, 3357 03:08:17,160 --> 03:08:18,400 Speaker 1: actually they will attack people. 3358 03:08:20,160 --> 03:08:24,560 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's like they United Nations says, yeah, it's bleak. 3359 03:08:24,680 --> 03:08:27,640 Speaker 5: The UNS that life expectancy for trans people in Central 3360 03:08:27,680 --> 03:08:31,280 Speaker 5: America is thirty five or less. Right, that's a di 3361 03:08:31,480 --> 03:08:36,960 Speaker 5: am older than that. That is abhorrent. Right, that you 3362 03:08:37,879 --> 03:08:43,560 Speaker 5: are extremely likely to die young if you're trans in 3363 03:08:43,600 --> 03:08:46,000 Speaker 5: places not so far from here, right, And I think 3364 03:08:46,040 --> 03:08:48,120 Speaker 5: that's what I want to get at, And it's the 3365 03:08:48,240 --> 03:08:54,320 Speaker 5: fundamental conceit of this whole thing is that border policy 3366 03:08:54,360 --> 03:08:58,040 Speaker 5: doesn't change migration. Migration happens because people aren't safe where 3367 03:08:58,040 --> 03:09:02,120 Speaker 5: they are, and that's why they leave. They don't take 3368 03:09:02,200 --> 03:09:06,280 Speaker 5: this journey because it seems easy, because even right now, 3369 03:09:06,640 --> 03:09:11,640 Speaker 5: it's incredibly hard. People walk thousands of miles, They walk 3370 03:09:11,640 --> 03:09:14,320 Speaker 5: across mountains, they run and they take risks and hop 3371 03:09:14,360 --> 03:09:20,160 Speaker 5: on trains. They get extorted, they get robbed, that they 3372 03:09:20,240 --> 03:09:24,480 Speaker 5: get assaulted. Young women often get sexually assaulted. Like it's 3373 03:09:24,520 --> 03:09:29,359 Speaker 5: a terrible and dangerous journey, and people won't stop taking 3374 03:09:29,440 --> 03:09:33,560 Speaker 5: that journey because Joe Biden decided to do something different. 3375 03:09:33,640 --> 03:09:36,240 Speaker 5: The things that are driving them to leave their homes 3376 03:09:36,280 --> 03:09:41,680 Speaker 5: will still keep happening, and they will now have to 3377 03:09:41,720 --> 03:09:43,160 Speaker 5: take a more dangerous journey. 3378 03:09:43,560 --> 03:09:44,640 Speaker 4: And all that. 3379 03:09:44,600 --> 03:09:47,720 Speaker 5: This does is make it more likely that there's people 3380 03:09:47,760 --> 03:09:49,880 Speaker 5: will die on the way here, or that when they 3381 03:09:49,920 --> 03:09:52,440 Speaker 5: get here they have to live their whole lives always 3382 03:09:52,520 --> 03:09:55,440 Speaker 5: wondering if they're going to get sent back, right, never 3383 03:09:55,520 --> 03:09:59,760 Speaker 5: really feeling safe. It rubs people of what some of 3384 03:09:59,800 --> 03:10:03,200 Speaker 5: us can take for granted, right, which is being able 3385 03:10:03,240 --> 03:10:06,760 Speaker 5: to go sleep at night in feelix safe. And yeah, 3386 03:10:06,800 --> 03:10:09,879 Speaker 5: that that's I guess what we all voted for when 3387 03:10:09,920 --> 03:10:12,800 Speaker 5: we chose an anti fascist guy in twenty twenty. Like, 3388 03:10:13,240 --> 03:10:17,720 Speaker 5: it's a pretty fucking bleak vision of politics in this 3389 03:10:17,800 --> 03:10:20,000 Speaker 5: country and the impact it has for people who don't 3390 03:10:20,040 --> 03:10:21,520 Speaker 5: get a choice to vote in this country. 3391 03:10:23,920 --> 03:10:26,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's you know, it is a it 3392 03:10:27,040 --> 03:10:31,360 Speaker 1: is a functional, definitional totalitarian regime, and it will never 3393 03:10:31,400 --> 03:10:33,720 Speaker 1: be fucking described as that by the academics who fucking 3394 03:10:34,400 --> 03:10:37,120 Speaker 1: use this language. But you know, how how how else 3395 03:10:37,160 --> 03:10:40,080 Speaker 1: do you describe living in a condition where you can 3396 03:10:40,160 --> 03:10:43,000 Speaker 1: at any point be removed and are spending literally all 3397 03:10:43,000 --> 03:10:47,120 Speaker 1: of your time attempting to flee a police date Like, yeah, yeah, 3398 03:10:47,280 --> 03:10:49,720 Speaker 1: the w US, the US is and has always been 3399 03:10:49,800 --> 03:10:53,720 Speaker 1: an unbelievably authoritarian state, and it's getting more so fucking 3400 03:10:53,800 --> 03:10:56,720 Speaker 1: every day. And you know, and this is also one 3401 03:10:56,720 --> 03:10:59,760 Speaker 1: of these things where it's like, I mean we literally 3402 03:10:59,800 --> 03:11:02,360 Speaker 1: saw this in twenty twenty. The people who got sent 3403 03:11:02,400 --> 03:11:05,240 Speaker 1: in to put down the uprising in Portland, it was 3404 03:11:05,280 --> 03:11:07,360 Speaker 1: fucking Bortac right, it was. It was it was the 3405 03:11:07,520 --> 03:11:09,440 Speaker 1: the it was, it was it was the border patrols 3406 03:11:09,480 --> 03:11:13,680 Speaker 1: like special forces units, right, Like that's that's the inevitable 3407 03:11:13,760 --> 03:11:18,000 Speaker 1: logic of this state, is that you any person who 3408 03:11:18,040 --> 03:11:20,640 Speaker 1: wants to resist the state, eventually one day these people 3409 03:11:20,640 --> 03:11:24,039 Speaker 1: will fucking come for you too. And the question is 3410 03:11:24,480 --> 03:11:27,440 Speaker 1: whether you know, it's whether you start. Because Portak didn't 3411 03:11:27,800 --> 03:11:30,560 Speaker 1: win really and like the stuff that they were trying 3412 03:11:30,560 --> 03:11:32,520 Speaker 1: to do in twenty two, like they they basically kind 3413 03:11:32,560 --> 03:11:35,600 Speaker 1: of got beaten, but you know they're still there. They're 3414 03:11:35,600 --> 03:11:38,240 Speaker 1: still getting fucking money, like they're getting I mean to 3415 03:11:38,280 --> 03:11:41,440 Speaker 1: give more money. Yeah, So you know, either either we 3416 03:11:41,480 --> 03:11:44,600 Speaker 1: stopped them now before they fucking have another trillion dollars 3417 03:11:44,600 --> 03:11:47,040 Speaker 1: to spend on this shit, or you know, we fight 3418 03:11:47,080 --> 03:11:49,800 Speaker 1: them again in like five years when there's more of 3419 03:11:49,800 --> 03:11:50,800 Speaker 1: them and they're better funded. 3420 03:11:51,680 --> 03:11:54,560 Speaker 5: Yeah, And like the final thing I'll say with regard 3421 03:11:54,640 --> 03:11:56,840 Speaker 5: to that finding is, maybe you're meeting your family over 3422 03:11:56,879 --> 03:11:59,240 Speaker 5: the holidays, right, maybe hanging out with people he didn't 3423 03:11:59,240 --> 03:12:04,120 Speaker 5: often hang out. Even if you don't care about you 3424 03:12:04,160 --> 03:12:07,240 Speaker 5: know that their mother bringing her baby from Shingaal in 3425 03:12:07,360 --> 03:12:11,760 Speaker 5: Iraq to hear who I met last night, Right, even 3426 03:12:11,840 --> 03:12:15,480 Speaker 5: if that doesn't bother you and you're so somehow heartless 3427 03:12:15,680 --> 03:12:19,959 Speaker 5: that you don't care. I will say that, like every 3428 03:12:20,080 --> 03:12:22,720 Speaker 5: single time we put more money into border security to 3429 03:12:22,800 --> 03:12:25,520 Speaker 5: ends up with all of us being surveiled more. If 3430 03:12:25,560 --> 03:12:28,360 Speaker 5: you attended a protest in twenty twenty, you might have 3431 03:12:28,440 --> 03:12:29,840 Speaker 5: been surveiled by border patrol. 3432 03:12:29,959 --> 03:12:30,160 Speaker 4: Right. 3433 03:12:30,879 --> 03:12:33,040 Speaker 5: If you walk around in the desert where I live, 3434 03:12:33,240 --> 03:12:35,480 Speaker 5: you're probably being surveiled by border patrol. 3435 03:12:35,520 --> 03:12:36,240 Speaker 1: If you use your. 3436 03:12:36,240 --> 03:12:39,320 Speaker 5: Cell phone without encryption, you might be being surveiled at 3437 03:12:39,360 --> 03:12:44,800 Speaker 5: the border. Right. The companies, many of them are based 3438 03:12:44,840 --> 03:12:46,800 Speaker 5: in the US and then based in Israel, that are 3439 03:12:46,800 --> 03:12:50,360 Speaker 5: surveilling Palestinians are the same ones that are surveiling us 3440 03:12:50,400 --> 03:12:54,720 Speaker 5: at our border. And this will come back to bite 3441 03:12:54,720 --> 03:12:57,400 Speaker 5: you at the ass. In the ass, this will come 3442 03:12:57,440 --> 03:12:59,680 Speaker 5: back to bite you in the ass, even if you 3443 03:12:59,720 --> 03:13:02,920 Speaker 5: don't care about migrants, because the moment you are not 3444 03:13:03,080 --> 03:13:06,920 Speaker 5: in lockstep with the government, you become a potential victim 3445 03:13:07,160 --> 03:13:11,679 Speaker 5: of that surveillance. Right, And a big thing with undocumented 3446 03:13:11,840 --> 03:13:14,920 Speaker 5: immigration is it essentially makes you a legible and therefore 3447 03:13:15,040 --> 03:13:16,199 Speaker 5: untaxable to the government. 3448 03:13:16,320 --> 03:13:16,440 Speaker 2: Right. 3449 03:13:16,879 --> 03:13:20,280 Speaker 5: What would the government state at its very core want 3450 03:13:20,320 --> 03:13:23,560 Speaker 5: people to be is legible and taxable and accountable. If 3451 03:13:23,600 --> 03:13:25,320 Speaker 5: you think that it isn't going to bounce back on 3452 03:13:25,760 --> 03:13:31,000 Speaker 5: trans folks, right and making them specifically lon binary folks too, Right, 3453 03:13:31,160 --> 03:13:33,120 Speaker 5: Like the idea that you don't have a box to 3454 03:13:33,160 --> 03:13:34,920 Speaker 5: tick on a form and that makes you harder to 3455 03:13:34,920 --> 03:13:38,840 Speaker 5: be legible and statistically quantifiable by the government. All of 3456 03:13:38,879 --> 03:13:41,400 Speaker 5: this will come back and hurt you, even if you're 3457 03:13:41,480 --> 03:13:43,640 Speaker 5: just a super right wing libertarian who doesn't want to 3458 03:13:43,640 --> 03:13:47,360 Speaker 5: pay their taxes. Like this border of security is a 3459 03:13:47,440 --> 03:13:52,200 Speaker 5: thing that will eventually be used against you. And I 3460 03:13:52,280 --> 03:13:55,760 Speaker 5: don't think it's in any of our interests to just 3461 03:13:55,879 --> 03:13:58,120 Speaker 5: keep handing these tools to the state that end up 3462 03:13:58,120 --> 03:14:01,920 Speaker 5: being used against the most desperately in the world. And 3463 03:14:02,640 --> 03:14:06,440 Speaker 5: so hopefully I know there's no one you can fucking 3464 03:14:06,520 --> 03:14:10,080 Speaker 5: vote for to change that. Yeah, yeah, you can feel 3465 03:14:10,120 --> 03:14:13,959 Speaker 5: free to write your legislators. I have been on the 3466 03:14:14,000 --> 03:14:17,200 Speaker 5: phone to my legislators about individual cases of people who 3467 03:14:17,200 --> 03:14:19,480 Speaker 5: I care about very deeply, who are in a very 3468 03:14:19,520 --> 03:14:24,400 Speaker 5: grave amount of danger and they haven't done shit. So 3469 03:14:24,440 --> 03:14:27,160 Speaker 5: instead I go to the border and I build shelters, 3470 03:14:27,200 --> 03:14:30,879 Speaker 5: add of palettes and tops for people because it's the 3471 03:14:30,879 --> 03:14:33,360 Speaker 5: only thing that makes me feel like I'm not completely 3472 03:14:33,400 --> 03:14:36,600 Speaker 5: fucking powerless. And so if you want to take that 3473 03:14:36,680 --> 03:14:40,280 Speaker 5: paradynamic back, you know, cook some beans, make some rice, 3474 03:14:40,440 --> 03:14:44,480 Speaker 5: buy some tops with your holiday money, and go out 3475 03:14:44,480 --> 03:14:46,160 Speaker 5: there and start doing mutual aid. You don't even have 3476 03:14:46,200 --> 03:14:48,680 Speaker 5: to go on x dot com or Reddit to do it. 3477 03:14:48,760 --> 03:14:50,600 Speaker 5: Just fucking go out and start helping people. You'll find 3478 03:14:50,640 --> 03:14:53,760 Speaker 5: other people who want to help. You can organize and 3479 03:14:53,800 --> 03:14:55,680 Speaker 5: it's bad. The only way I can see that you 3480 03:14:55,720 --> 03:14:57,320 Speaker 5: can make things meaningfully better right now? 3481 03:14:58,600 --> 03:15:02,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think I think that's a good message 3482 03:15:02,800 --> 03:15:03,240 Speaker 1: to end on. 3483 03:15:04,000 --> 03:15:04,480 Speaker 2: Yeah it is. 3484 03:15:05,640 --> 03:15:08,840 Speaker 5: If you want to give your money to my little 3485 03:15:09,879 --> 03:15:13,240 Speaker 5: mutual laid gang of wonderful people, you can go to 3486 03:15:13,240 --> 03:15:17,480 Speaker 5: GoFundMe dot com, slash Hercumber, hyphen migrant hyphen camps. He 3487 03:15:17,600 --> 03:15:21,600 Speaker 5: Cumber is ja c U N b A. But you 3488 03:15:21,600 --> 03:15:23,160 Speaker 5: can also keep it. And I would love it if 3489 03:15:23,160 --> 03:15:26,039 Speaker 5: you started something yourself and told us what you were doing. 3490 03:15:26,320 --> 03:15:29,200 Speaker 5: That would make things less shitty for us. 3491 03:15:32,680 --> 03:15:35,840 Speaker 2: Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week 3492 03:15:35,920 --> 03:15:37,840 Speaker 2: from now until the heat death of the Universe. 3493 03:15:38,440 --> 03:15:40,920 Speaker 6: It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media. 3494 03:15:41,000 --> 03:15:43,680 Speaker 6: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 3495 03:15:43,720 --> 03:15:45,959 Speaker 6: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 3496 03:15:45,959 --> 03:15:49,520 Speaker 6: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 3497 03:15:49,800 --> 03:15:51,879 Speaker 6: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated 3498 03:15:52,000 --> 03:15:56,039 Speaker 6: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.