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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 2: is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 3: And I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with Part

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Speaker 3: three in our discussion of the mystery cults of the

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Speaker 3: ancient Mediterranean. Mystery cults are religions that are differentiated from

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Speaker 3: the mainstream public cults of the Greco Roman world because,

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Speaker 3: instead of focusing on the regular transactional tending to the

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Speaker 3: needs of the gods through ritual and sacrifice, mystery cults

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Speaker 3: were centered around the performance of secret mystic rites, which

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Speaker 3: were usually revealed only to the cult's initiates, and which

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Speaker 3: were often described as intense sensory experiences involving direct contact

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Speaker 3: with the power of the gods. In Part one of

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Speaker 3: this series, we talked mainly about the historical context of

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Speaker 3: the mysteries and how they differed from the most common

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Speaker 3: religious practices of Greek and Roman polytheism, and then in

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Speaker 3: Part two we looked at a couple of specific examples.

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Speaker 3: We looked at Mythraism, a mystery cult that flourished in

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Speaker 3: the Roman Empire, especially among members of the Roman army,

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Speaker 3: from roughly the first through the fourth century CE, and

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Speaker 3: then also we started talking about what was the most

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Speaker 3: famous and probably the most revered mystery cult for hundreds

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Speaker 3: of years among the Greeks and Romans, which was the

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Speaker 3: festival of the Eleusinian Mysteries, the Secret Rites, which took

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Speaker 3: place in Eleusis, which was about twenty three kilometers west

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Speaker 3: of the center of ancient Athens. And we are back

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Speaker 3: today to talk.

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Speaker 2: About more, all right.

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Speaker 3: So in the last episode we had to leave off

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Speaker 3: in the middle of our discussion of the Eleusinian Mysteries

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Speaker 3: because we ran out of time. So I think that's

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Speaker 3: where we should jump back in today. We can start

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Speaker 3: off with that subject. We already talked last time about

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Speaker 3: the story of Demeter and Persephone, which is the primary

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Speaker 3: myth associated with the cult. Particularly we're focused on the

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Speaker 3: version told in the sixth or seventh century BCE Dactylic

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Speaker 3: Hexamit or poem known as the Homeric Hymn to Demeter,

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Speaker 3: and I'll do a brief summary to refresh. In this story,

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Speaker 3: Demeter's daughter Demeter is the goddess of course of grain

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Speaker 3: and agriculture. Demeter's daughter Persephone, called Cory meaning maiden in

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Speaker 3: inscriptions associated with Eleusis is kidnapped to the underworld by Hades,

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Speaker 3: the god of the dead, and the grief stricken Demeter

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Speaker 3: searches for her around the world in vain. Along the way,

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Speaker 3: she has interactions with the royal family of Eleusis, including

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Speaker 3: a thwarted attempt to transform a baby prince named Demophoon

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Speaker 3: into an immortal, after which Demeter demands that the people

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Speaker 3: of that place build her a temple and perform special

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Speaker 3: rites for her, which they are not allowed to depart from,

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Speaker 3: ask questions about, or broadcast to the uninitiated. Eventually, in

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Speaker 3: the story the Daughter Corey or again that's the same

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Speaker 3: character as Persephone and other tellings, Corey is permitted to

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Speaker 3: leave the underworld, but because she has eaten of the

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Speaker 3: fruit of Hades, she cannot leave forever and must spend

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Speaker 3: part of every year back in the realm of the dead.

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Speaker 3: And this myth is often tied to seasonal cycles of

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Speaker 3: growth and harvest.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we can't stress in enough everyone, if you venture

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Speaker 2: into a spirit realm, don't eat anything.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly comes.

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Speaker 2: Up time and time again.

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Speaker 3: You gotta know the rules of the underworld. This came

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Speaker 3: up in another ancient poem we were talking about. Oh,

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Speaker 3: I think it's the poem of Gilgamesh and Ki Dou

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Speaker 3: in the Nether World, where in key Dou loses some

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Speaker 3: stuff down like it falls into the nether world and

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Speaker 3: he has to go down to get it, and Gilgamesh

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Speaker 3: is like, look, you gotta do all these things right.

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Speaker 3: You don't wear certain kinds of clothes, you don't clap

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Speaker 3: too loud or shout too loud. All this stuff will

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Speaker 3: attract negative attention down there. And then in Keto just

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Speaker 3: does it all wrong and he gets stuck. I don't

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Speaker 3: know what the other rules for persephone would have been,

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Speaker 3: apart from donate a pomegranate seed, but presumably there are

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Speaker 3: other rules as well. But anyway, we also talked last time,

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Speaker 3: not just about the myth itself, but about some things

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Speaker 3: ancient writers said about the effect of taking part in

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Speaker 3: the rights of ilusis. Many writers are, of course, reluctant

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Speaker 3: to share anything about the secret rituals themselves lest they

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Speaker 3: profane them. You don't talk about the mysteries. That's part

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Speaker 3: of what Demeter said, no talking about this, but they

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Speaker 3: do mention that the effect on the person who takes

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Speaker 3: part is a profound one and a positive one. To

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Speaker 3: illustrate that, I found the following passage from a dialogue

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Speaker 3: of Cis called on the Laws, where a character in

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Speaker 3: this dialogue is talking about the mysteries and says as follows,

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Speaker 3: much that is excellent and divine does Athens seem to

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Speaker 3: me to have produced and added to our life, But

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Speaker 3: nothing better than those mysteries by which we are formed

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Speaker 3: and molded from a rude and savage state of humanity.

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Speaker 3: And indeed, in the mysteries we perceive the real principles

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Speaker 3: of life and learn not only to live happily, but

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Speaker 3: to die with a fairer hope. So what does taking

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Speaker 3: part in the mysteries do for us? It seems that

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Speaker 3: it causes us to ascend from a rough, crude state

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Speaker 3: of existence, maybe an animalistic state of existence, into a

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Speaker 3: more refined type of being. Maybe it civilizes us in

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Speaker 3: some way. And this connects to something I've seen in

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Speaker 3: a few other sources having to do with the grain

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Speaker 3: and agriculture significance of the myth, that there's something about

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Speaker 3: the mysteries which is tied to the gift of agriculture,

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Speaker 3: of growing grain and the fruits of the harvest to

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Speaker 3: humans from the gods, and thus it's sort of like

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Speaker 3: perceived that that is the thing which separates us from

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Speaker 3: the animals. But beyond that, the mysteries also show us

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Speaker 3: what life is really about, or sort of the originating

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Speaker 3: principles of life. It makes us happier in this life,

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Speaker 3: and it makes us hope for better things after death.

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Speaker 3: And the last point has an interesting resonance. I don't

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Speaker 3: know if we alluded to this when we were talking

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Speaker 3: about the myth in full, but of course Persephone known

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Speaker 3: as Corey in the inscriptions at ilusis she is the

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Speaker 3: queen of the underworld, you know, so she's going to

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Speaker 3: be down there at least part of the year in

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Speaker 3: the nether world. I wonder if that has something to

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Speaker 3: do with the relationship between the mysteries and the fate

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Speaker 3: of the dead.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, she ends up with a like a foot

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Speaker 2: in both worlds, in the agricultural world and then also

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Speaker 2: in the world of death in the afterlife. That's who

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Speaker 2: you want to get in good with a transitional being

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Speaker 2: that understands your world as well as the next world.

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Speaker 3: Though to be fair, that connection might just be a coincidence.

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Speaker 3: I mean it is possible also that those who have

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Speaker 3: experienced the mysteries might expect a better fate in the

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Speaker 3: afterlife simply because they have some kind of deeper connection

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Speaker 3: with the power of the gods. They have more God

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Speaker 3: intimacy in general than people who have not had who

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Speaker 3: have not gone through the mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, or I mean, you know, to sort of

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Speaker 2: couch it in some sort of modern language, we could

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Speaker 2: say that at least while you're going through these rights,

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Speaker 2: you're very much living in the now. So that's got

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Speaker 2: to at least have a temporary effect on any anxieties

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Speaker 2: you have about the future.

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Speaker 3: Well, certainly, yeah, while you're doing the rights themselves. But

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Speaker 3: I mean to be clear, these authors do talk about

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Speaker 3: it as having a lasting effect, one that follows you home.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, And I think, you know, there's probably a

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Speaker 2: case to be made that if you couple a sensational

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Speaker 2: experience with those elements of at least temporarily exiting your anxieties,

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Speaker 2: this could be the essentially the cocktail recipe for some

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Speaker 2: sort of lasting change.

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Speaker 3: Now, before I move on, I want to mention a

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Speaker 3: couple of my major sources. One is a book we've

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Speaker 3: already talked about in this series by a scholar named

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Speaker 3: Hugh Bowden, called Mystery Cults in the Ancient World The

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Speaker 3: Times and Hudson twenty twenty three edition, Bowden being an

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Speaker 3: ancient historian affiliated with King's College, London. But I also

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Speaker 3: wanted to point to a chapter in The Wily Companion

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Speaker 3: to Greek Religion edited by Daniel Ogden. The chapter is

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Speaker 3: called the Mysteries of Demeter and Corey, and it is

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Speaker 3: by Kevin Clinton, who is a professor emeritus of Classics

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Speaker 3: at Cornell. Both very good resources on the Elusinian mysteries,

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Speaker 3: and I'll refer back to both authors several more times. Now,

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Speaker 3: moving beyond what we've already talked about the myth and

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Speaker 3: the effect on people, what do we actually know and

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Speaker 3: what can we reasonably guess about the form the mysteries took?

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Speaker 3: What were these powerful rites? Well, there are some things,

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Speaker 3: the sort of public elements of the festival, the associated festival,

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Speaker 3: that we do know with a good bit of certainty,

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Speaker 3: and we'll we'll move from what we know more about

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Speaker 3: what we know less about. The Eleusinian mysteries were celebrated

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Speaker 3: in stages that took place at different times of the year.

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Speaker 3: So scholars think there was a primary stage of celebration

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Speaker 3: known as the Lesser Mysteries, which were held at a

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Speaker 3: place called Agrai within the city of Athens around the

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Speaker 3: end of the winter beginning of spring, so our February

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Speaker 3: March season, and that was a different, separate thing, but

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Speaker 3: people usually did this before the main thing, which was

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Speaker 3: the Greater Mysteries, which took place between Athens and Eleusis

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Speaker 3: during the autumn around our months of September October. Clues

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Speaker 3: from the literature of the time indicate that people generally

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Speaker 3: participated in the lesser Mysteries before doing the Greater Mysteries,

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Speaker 3: and the total festival of the Greater Mysteries lasted eight

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Speaker 3: days and began with public events. So when we talk

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Speaker 3: about the secret rights, it's not like the whole thing

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Speaker 3: of the Eleusinian Mysteries were secret rights. It was just

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Speaker 3: like one sort of climactic part of the festival. It

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Speaker 3: was made up of the secret rights. You had lots

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Speaker 3: of public events that included sacrifices to various gods. There

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Speaker 3: was a process of preparation and purification of the initiates,

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Speaker 3: the people who wanted to be initiated into the cult,

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Speaker 3: there was a solemn march from the center of Athens

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Speaker 3: to Eleusis, and then finally you would get to the

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Speaker 3: secret rights inside a closed hall of initiation called the Telesterion,

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Speaker 3: which was the sort of big central building inside the

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Speaker 3: sanctuary of Demeter and Corey in Ilusis. It's hard to

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Speaker 3: say exactly when these festivals began and when they ended

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Speaker 3: in history, but we know a couple of things to

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Speaker 3: sort of set the maximal boundaries in time. While the

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Speaker 3: archaeological record in the area directly around the sanctuary goes

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Speaker 3: all the way back to the Bronze Age, it appears

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Speaker 3: to have been abandoned for some time around twelve hundred BCE,

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Speaker 3: and then the site was continuously occupied beginning sometime in

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Speaker 3: the eighth century BCE for hundreds of years after that,

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Speaker 3: and then we know that the rites probably continued no

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Speaker 3: later than the end of the fourth century CE, when

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Speaker 3: Illusis was destroyed by the Goths, and after this there

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Speaker 3: appears to have been no attempt to rebuild the sanctuary.

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Speaker 3: By this time, the Roman Empire would have been largely

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Speaker 3: Christian anyway, and you know that would have produced some

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Speaker 3: severe friction for the cult of Iluses.

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Speaker 2: And we'll come back to the twilight of the mystery

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Speaker 2: cults here in a bit. Now.

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Speaker 3: An interesting thing is that during the time the cult

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Speaker 3: was in operation, lots of famous people in the ancient world,

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Speaker 3: including authors that we would read, including multiple Roman emperors

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Speaker 3: like Augustus Hadrian and Marcus Aurelius, made the trip to

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Speaker 3: Ilusus to be initiated into the mysteries, and that in

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Speaker 3: itself kind of highlights a curious fact. While the core

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Speaker 3: rights themselves, the mysteries were secret and you couldn't share

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Speaker 3: them with outsiders, people would come from all over to

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Speaker 3: be initiated, so it seems that the secret rituals were

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Speaker 3: in a way more kind of open, more kind of

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Speaker 3: globally open to participation than many of the public the

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Speaker 3: so called public cults of the Greco Roman world would be,

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Speaker 3: which many of which were quite locally focused. So for

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Speaker 3: most of the time the mysteries existed, it seems that

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Speaker 3: anyone from anywhere was allowed to come and be initiated

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Speaker 3: as long as they met a couple of criteria. They

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Speaker 3: had to speak Greek or be a Roman later on

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Speaker 3: under the Roman Empire, and they had to have not

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Speaker 3: committed murder, and if you met those criteria, you could

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Speaker 3: you could be initiated, you could learn the you could

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Speaker 3: learn the secrets, you could take part in the mysteries.

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Speaker 2: And I assume you could lie about the second one,

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Speaker 2: or it could be left up to your interpretation what

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Speaker 2: murder was. It's not like you had like a designated

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Speaker 2: punch card that you would have to show.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess, I guess. The question is like, do

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Speaker 3: local people know that you committed murder?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 3: Did you commit murder anywhere around Athens?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Okay? So what else do we know about what took

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Speaker 3: place around the mysteries? Here again, I'm drawing largely from Bowden,

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Speaker 3: trying to pull together all these facts. One thing is that,

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Speaker 3: going back to what I was just saying about people

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Speaker 3: coming from all over before the festivities began in the autumn,

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Speaker 3: a truce went out through through the Greek cities ensuring

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Speaker 3: that anyone who wanted to be able to come to

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Speaker 3: the mysteries could travel safely to Athens to take part.

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Speaker 3: So a kind of period of sanctuary on travel around

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Speaker 3: the area. We also know something about the rights involving

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Speaker 3: specific sacred objects called heira or hyra. I'm sorry I

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Speaker 3: did not look up which way to say that it's

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Speaker 3: hi era. I'm going to say hira for now. These

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Speaker 3: were carried in enclosed vessels tied with a red ribbon,

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Speaker 3: and they were carried in a ceremonial procession by the

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Speaker 3: priests of Eleusis, first two Athens at the beginning of

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Speaker 3: the festival, and then back to Iluses for the end.

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Speaker 3: So what were these sacred hidden objects? That was one

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Speaker 3: of the secrets you don't get to know. Inside the telesterion.

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Speaker 3: The objects would probably be shown and interacted with in

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Speaker 3: some way by the initiates, but writers sympathetic to the

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Speaker 3: mysteries do not tell us what these sacred objects were.

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Speaker 3: Bowden argues that the hira were probably not stacked choose

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Speaker 3: of Demeter and Corey like you might get with other cults.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it would be very common for other public

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Speaker 3: cults in the Greco Roman world to have a cult

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Speaker 3: statue that you might even in some cases if it

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Speaker 3: was small enough like take out and carry in a parade.

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Speaker 3: That doesn't seem to be the case here. Instead, the

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Speaker 3: priests were probably bearing some collection of small sacred objects

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Speaker 3: which represented the goddesses in some way. One Christian writer

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Speaker 3: from the ancient world writing against so called heresies, claims

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Speaker 3: that the main secret object was an ear of grain.

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Speaker 3: So we don't know if this is correct or not,

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Speaker 3: but that would not be weird for grain imagery to

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Speaker 3: be used in these rituals, given the role of demeter.

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Speaker 3: It seems plausible.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels like the ritual and the storytelling would

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Speaker 2: really have to do the heavy lifting if the sacred

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Speaker 2: object was just the grain, though there had to be

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Speaker 2: other objects as well. Right, here's a piece of wheat.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, but something we'll get into in a

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Speaker 3: minute here is you can present a a sheaf of

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Speaker 3: wheat in a much more or much less dramatic fashion.

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Speaker 2: That's right. The presentation is everything. Yes.

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Speaker 3: Another thing we know is that the procession of the

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Speaker 3: sacred objects between the cities got an armed escort made

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Speaker 3: of young men from Athens, so they were well guarded,

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Speaker 3: and the initiates were generally understood to have to do

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Speaker 3: some stuff beforehand before you go into the greater mysteries.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if it was actually required, but it

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Speaker 3: seems at least customary that people would usually go through

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Speaker 3: the lesser mysteries at Agri first. Agra is another place nearby,

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Speaker 3: sort of within the city of Athens, and people seemingly

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Speaker 3: did these other things before they went to the greater mysteries.

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Speaker 3: But it is hard to say for sure. There's a

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Speaker 3: lot we don't know about the lesser mysteries. They're kind

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Speaker 3: of passing references to them. This is one thing I

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Speaker 3: brought up in the last episode, where like in a

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Speaker 3: dialogue of Plato, Socrates just says to somebody by point

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Speaker 3: of comparison that like they figured out something big before

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Speaker 3: they figured out something small. They say, oh, you know,

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Speaker 3: you've been initiated to the greater mysteries before the lesser mysteries.

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Speaker 3: I didn't know you could do that.

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Speaker 2: You know, this is not the first time I was

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Speaker 2: reminded of this. I've thought about this a little bit

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Speaker 2: in the last episode, but I was thinking about side shows.

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Speaker 2: You know, you would have your main circus, and then

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Speaker 2: you would have the side show, which might have things

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Speaker 2: that were a little more specialized in maybe less public interest.

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Speaker 2: They might be, you know, have more to do with

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Speaker 2: you know, human abnormalities or other curios or you know,

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Speaker 2: fake specimens of imaginary creatures. And it seems like you

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Speaker 2: could at least compare this a little bit to the

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Speaker 2: idea of lesser and greater mysteries. You go through one,

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Speaker 2: then you go through the other, And there are variations

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Speaker 2: of this in other elements of entertainment. We kept talking

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Speaker 2: about haunted attractions or haunted houses, and one of the

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Speaker 2: big ones we have in the Atlanta area has almost

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Speaker 2: always two houses. There's the one larger house, and then

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Speaker 2: there's a smaller secondary house, which is generally like a

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Speaker 2: little harder in its horror, a lot more chainsaws and

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Speaker 2: blood and stuff. So you know, you have one set

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Speaker 2: of sensational experiences you might have, and then there's like

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Speaker 2: another the next level you go to if you dare

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Speaker 2: that's right.

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Speaker 3: And again I do not have direct evidence, and none

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Speaker 3: of the authors I read seem to indicate that we

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Speaker 3: know you had to do the lesser mysteries first. Instead,

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Speaker 3: it seems more like it was just understood that if

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Speaker 3: you were going to do them both, you would do

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Speaker 3: the lesser first. There was no reason to do the

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Speaker 3: greater and then do the lesser.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, lacking full context and understanding again of the mysteries,

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Speaker 2: it seems like I feel like a jerk if I

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Speaker 2: just did the greater mysteries enough the lesser mysteries, or

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Speaker 2: if I've done the less mysteries before, I might want

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Speaker 2: to like refresh. It's like watching season one before season

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Speaker 2: two comes out, right, you want to rewatch it? Yeah.

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Speaker 3: According to Plutarch, there is this it seemed to me

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Speaker 3: at least hilarious incident where a Hellenistic king named Demetrius,

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Speaker 3: who was ruling in the fourth to the third centuries BCE,

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Speaker 3: had the Athenians officially alter their calendar, the calendar of

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Speaker 3: the year, so that he could do the lesser and

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Speaker 3: then the greater mysteries back to back within a few days.

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Speaker 3: So it's kind of like I'm going to make the

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Speaker 3: Americans change their calendars so i can do Halloween, Christmas,

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Speaker 3: and then Valentine's Day all on a weekend. Demetrius, by

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Speaker 3: the way, he went all the way. He did another

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Speaker 3: thing called the epoptica, which meant seeing the greater mysteries

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Speaker 3: for a second time. And this is another thing referenced

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Speaker 3: commonly in the ancient world. It seems that you were

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Speaker 3: not fully initiated until you had taken part in the

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Speaker 3: greater mysteries twice, and you had a different role. It

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Speaker 3: seems the second time you were there. I'll talk more

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Speaker 3: about that in a minute. So at the beginning of

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Speaker 3: the festival you get a big announcement in the Agora

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Speaker 3: of Athens, than people wishing to be initiated would go

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Speaker 3: down to the sea with a young pig, wash it

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Speaker 3: in the water, and then they would sacrifice it. And

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Speaker 3: this was in some cases done by like thousands of

356
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Speaker 3: initiates at a time, so you can imagine the scene

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Speaker 3: as pretty bananas. At some point, new initiates would be

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Speaker 3: paired with a sort of guide figure called a mystic

359
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Speaker 3: goo goos, essentially like a sponsor. This would be somebody

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Speaker 3: who already knew what was going on or was initiated,

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Speaker 3: who would guide the newbie in the coming rights. On

362
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Speaker 3: the following days, there would be more sacrifices in Athens

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Speaker 3: to the Elusinian goddesses, and then beginning later in the

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Speaker 3: history of the festival, also to a Scleep, the god

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Speaker 3: of healing and medicine. There was like a tradition here

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Speaker 3: involving a sacred snake, and then after several days of

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Speaker 3: preparation and sacrifices, you'd get the procession going back from

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Speaker 3: Athens to eleusis to the cult center, and this would

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Speaker 3: have one group made of priests transporting the concealed sacred

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Speaker 3: objects the Hira underguard, and then there would be another

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Speaker 3: group that was made up of the initiates to the cult.

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Speaker 3: And the walk between the cities was pretty long. It

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Speaker 3: was like twenty two or twenty three kilometers, and at

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Speaker 3: one special place near the end of the journey, Bowden

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Speaker 3: mentions that the initiates endured a form of ritual mockery

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Speaker 3: by onlookers called the gepherismas, which I don't know that

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Speaker 3: stuck with me. I want to come back to that

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Speaker 3: in a minute. It's interesting. So it's like it's just

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Speaker 3: understood as part of it. You're taking part. People are

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Speaker 3: going to mock you, insult you, her whole things at

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Speaker 3: you as you go by.

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Speaker 2: It's like a roast, a mini roast.

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Speaker 3: Then finally you reach the sanctuary complex of Demeter and Corey,

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Speaker 3: and here there's like dancing that takes place outside and

385
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Speaker 3: then you would go inside for what lies beyond. Now,

386
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Speaker 3: how did this sanctuary compare to other religious sanctuaries in

387
00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:15,920
Speaker 3: the Greek world seemed to be a few differences. Bowden

388
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Speaker 3: mentions that there was probably no cult statue of the goddesses,

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Speaker 3: at least that we know of, not like we had

390
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Speaker 3: in other famous temples, and it also does not seem

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Speaker 3: that animal sacrifices were made on the altar here. The

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Speaker 3: central building was again the one I mentioned earlier, the Telesterion,

393
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Speaker 3: the Hall of Mysteries, and this was the big square

394
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Speaker 3: building that was clearly rebuilt and expanded a couple of

395
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Speaker 3: times in its history. In its largest form, it could

396
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Speaker 3: hold thousands of people at a time, maybe like three

397
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Speaker 3: thousand people inside, and had a sort of tiered stadium

398
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Speaker 3: standing room area so that people further in the back

399
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Speaker 3: could see, so you can think of it as a

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Speaker 3: kind of big square theater. And then in side the

401
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:05,800
Speaker 3: Telesterion was a smaller building called the Nacteraron, which means palace.

402
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Speaker 3: So the initiates got a day of rest after they

403
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Speaker 3: arrived at the sanctuary complex, and during the stay it's

404
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 3: not certain what they did, but they may have fasted

405
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Speaker 3: and possibly also consumed a prepared liquid that we talked

406
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Speaker 3: about in the last episode called Kukion spelled k y

407
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Speaker 3: k e n. Now that came up in the last

408
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 3: episode because it featured in the Homeric Hymn to Demeter.

409
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Speaker 3: That poem we talked about. The context was Demeter arrives

410
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Speaker 3: at King Celius's home in disguise and she is offered

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Speaker 3: wine by the Queen Medonaira, but she refuses it and

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Speaker 3: instead she drinks coukion. And that's supposed to be a

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Speaker 3: beverage or maybe a gruel made from grain, water and herbs.

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Speaker 3: Last time I mentioned mint, but I've also seen penny

415
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Speaker 3: royal indicated here. And there appear to be different versions

416
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Speaker 3: of kukon described in ancient literature. Sometimes it's just this

417
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:08,640
Speaker 3: grain gruel. Sometimes it was mixed with wine and perhaps cheese.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes it is described as intoxicating in nature. Sometimes it

419
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Speaker 3: is not described that way. Sometimes it appears to have

420
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Speaker 3: been a mundane drink consumed by peasants, and other times,

421
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Speaker 3: mainly here, it seems to have deep ritual significance. And

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Speaker 3: so kokion has attracted a lot of attention, even from

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Speaker 3: people who are not primarily interested in ancient history, but

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Speaker 3: from people who are interested in questions of speculative religious pharmacology.

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Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah, Over the past several decades there's been

426
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Speaker 2: a recurring question, and that question is still out there

427
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 2: is still battering around in contemporary literature, the question being

428
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 2: was cook on a psychedelic substance of some sort? And

429
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,639
Speaker 2: this idea has been explored by various commentators over the years,

430
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Speaker 2: including Robert Graves, storian and author, Albert Hoffman, the chemist,

431
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 2: and also ethnobotanist and mystic Terrence McKenna. Specifically, I had

432
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Speaker 2: to bust out my copy of Terrence McKinnon's Food of

433
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Speaker 2: the Gods because McKennon gets into this. He points out

434
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 2: that the Graves Robert Graves suggested the possibility of the

435
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:28,399
Speaker 2: psychedelic mushroom psilocybin being involved and kind of initially champion

436
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:32,880
Speaker 2: this idea, while Albert Hoffman and R. Gordon Lawson presented

437
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 2: the theory of ergotized beer brewed from a strain of

438
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 2: the ergot fungus, those being two of the main sort

439
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,399
Speaker 2: of theories regarding what this could have been if it

440
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,879
Speaker 2: was a psychedelic substance. And there are some problems, especially

441
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 2: with the ergotized beer examples we'll get into, and Balbin

442
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,199
Speaker 2: discusses some of this in the book as well. He

443
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,880
Speaker 2: points out that, Okay, this is an idea that's never

444
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 2: been particularly well received by expert and historians, though it

445
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,200
Speaker 2: continues to generate a lot of interest in scholarship, and

446
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 2: he outlines two primary objections, the first practical in the

447
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 2: second theoretical. So, first of all, the practical objection concerning

448
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,120
Speaker 2: specific theories that the mysteries in question depended on an

449
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 2: ergot derived psychedelic which would have been similar to LSD.

450
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 2: So as a reminder, ergot doesn't contain LSD, but contains

451
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:32,400
Speaker 2: lysergic acid as well as the precursor to LSD, Ergotyminge.

452
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 2: But the main problem here, the practical objection, is that

453
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 2: psychedelic doses of ergot itself would result in just terrible

454
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:45,199
Speaker 2: illness and death rather than a temporary experience something that

455
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 2: you would then you know that would be this defining

456
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 2: moment of your life. Perhaps we did episodes on ergotism

457
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:53,920
Speaker 2: for stuff to boil your mind back in twenty fifteen,

458
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:58,440
Speaker 2: and yet generally it does not sound like an afternoon

459
00:26:58,440 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 2: of Enlightenment.

460
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 3: No, so, I certainly don't have expertise in this area,

461
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 3: but from what I can tell, this seems like a

462
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 3: pretty reasonable objection.

463
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, we're if memory serves getting into

464
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 2: the details of ergotism. We're talking in times like flesh

465
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:17,360
Speaker 2: peeling madness, so nothing that's again seems like it would

466
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:22,959
Speaker 2: be part of an overall positive spiritual experience. And in

467
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 2: Food of the Gods, Terence McKinnon also addressed this, joking

468
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 2: that quote clearly unpleasant experiences may lie ahead for those

469
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 2: who set out to prove by self experiment the Wasson

470
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 2: Hoffman theory concerning Elusius. But then he also presents a

471
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 2: couple of ideas that we're out there regarding, on one hand,

472
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,120
Speaker 2: a particular species or erga that might yield less toxicity

473
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 2: and higher psychoactive results, as well as the notion presented

474
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 2: by Wasson and Hoffman that if you were to properly

475
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:57,199
Speaker 2: macerate the argotized grain in water, you might have been

476
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 2: able to separate the water soluble psychoactive alkaloids. But again

477
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 2: McKenna stressed that the burden of proof is on those

478
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 2: who assert, and no one at that point and sense

479
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:09,199
Speaker 2: has sufficiently proven any of this.

480
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,399
Speaker 3: But you can see why the example of the Lucian

481
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 3: mysteries would be incredibly appealing to people who have a

482
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,679
Speaker 3: general theory that like psychedelics play some major role in

483
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,199
Speaker 3: the establishment of religious practices.

484
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:26,199
Speaker 2: Right right, And certainly that is the case with McKenna's

485
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 2: overall thesis the role that psychedelics may have played and

486
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 2: the evolution of humans into their current state, as well

487
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 2: as the advancement of human civilization. But his discussion of

488
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 2: this is interesting and I think ultimately a lot more

489
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 2: balanced than some might expect. Overall, I think Food of

490
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 2: the Gods is the scholarship is a lot better than

491
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 2: some might think, because I don't want to overstress things,

492
00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 2: because I think with mckinna, you're dealing with someone who

493
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 2: was a visionary, animistic and definitely has some key arguments

494
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 2: for the about the trajectory of human civilization, what has

495
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 2: gone wrong and what needs to be corrected, a number

496
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 2: of opinions that I don't think are really all that

497
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 2: off track. But we also shouldn't like overstate what Food

498
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 2: of the Gods is compared to other works of dedicated scholarship.

499
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 2: And I mean he does stress that again, there are

500
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 2: a number of mysteries in play here, including just you know,

501
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 2: what are we talking about here? Was it even something tangible?

502
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 2: He references an example that was presented by Wilson and

503
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 2: Hoffman in their thesis and all of this that there's

504
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 2: this four fifteen BCE example in which an Athenian noble,

505
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 2: a noble that we're going to come back to that

506
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 2: is sometimes described as quote a flamboyant Athenian playboy. His

507
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 2: name is Alcibiades, and he's recorded as having been fine

508
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 2: for bringing the Eleusinian sacrament home for entertainment purposes with friends.

509
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 2: And the argument here is, well, this would seem to

510
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 2: suggest that it was not only tangible, but perhaps something

511
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 2: entertaining in and of itself. Now, the theoretical objection to

512
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 2: psychedelic theories concerning the kokion is referenced by Bowden. The

513
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 2: theoretical objection basically blows down to the fact that drugs

514
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 2: are not strictly necessary for these rights as we understand them.

515
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 2: The ancient Greeks had plenty other tricks up their sleeves

516
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 2: to create the experience, many based in performance and even

517
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 2: mechanical theatrical effects, and so he stresses that even say,

518
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 2: the nocturnal bachic revels of the Dionysus mystery cults might

519
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 2: not have depended on wine. So if wine wasn't needed

520
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 2: for the revels of bacchus, then do we really need

521
00:30:55,800 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 2: psychedelic substances for these to work? That being that they

522
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 2: might have had wine. And it's also very possible that

523
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 2: the rights were discussing here involve substances of one form

524
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 2: or another, either as a whole or at different points

525
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 2: that they were laid out. But I think this is

526
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 2: an excellent point about and raise this, and I think

527
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 2: one way to think about it is to think about

528
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 2: another like the modern version of like the spectacle that

529
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 2: we indulge in with other people, that being going to

530
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 2: a concert, like think of a big concert you went,

531
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 2: or even a small concert, just a noteworthy concert you

532
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 2: went to. If you've been to a concert at all

533
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 2: over the past, I don't know, several decades, no doubt

534
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 2: you've encountered folks that have imbibed in say alcohol that

535
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 2: is generally sold freely at most of these events, or

536
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 2: perhaps individuals who've imbibed in some level of illicit drug use,

537
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 2: be it you know, simple marijuana or some psychedelic or stimulant.

538
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 2: And you know, the question that raises is okay, well,

539
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 2: is the resulting mental state from taking any of these

540
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 2: substances going to enhance the experience of the show. Well,

541
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 2: certainly a strong a case or a strong case can

542
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 2: be made, like even if you're just talking about, Hey,

543
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 2: I had a cup of coffee to help keep me

544
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 2: awake until the headliner came on. Fair enough, But is

545
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 2: any of this strictly necessary for a great time? And

546
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 2: I realized that this sounds like a question posed in

547
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 2: a dare program from high school for many people. But

548
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 2: if we think about it logically, I think it works out.

549
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 2: You know, all the technical, theatrical, social aspects of a

550
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 2: concert are in place. They're generally very potent. You've probably

551
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 2: bought that ticket and gone out to the show because

552
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 2: you already have some invested interest in the spectacle. And

553
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 2: as such substances they might be helpful in one regard

554
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 2: or another, they might enhance things, but the spectacle is

555
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 2: already the spectacle, the lights, the music, the communal energy,

556
00:32:59,040 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 2: and so forth.

557
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, and imagine if you were approaching the concert with

558
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 3: the knowledge that what happened there was was secret and

559
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 3: couldn't be revealed.

560
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, which is just going to enhance everything. And

561
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 2: certainly that's I mean, anytime you have any kind of

562
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 2: a theatrical presentation, you know, either mildly theatrical or overtly theatrical.

563
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 2: If there's a secrecy to it, oh well, that just

564
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 2: makes it all the more special. Think about a speakeasy.

565
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 2: Any of you have ever been to one of the

566
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 2: modern speakeasies, not like a Prohibition era speakeasy, but if

567
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 2: you if you did go to a Prohibition era speakeasy,

568
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 2: you know, kudos to you for being up on podcasts

569
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,479
Speaker 2: and so forth. But you know, it's like there's generally

570
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 2: this level of like, oh I had to go through

571
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 2: a secret door to get into this bar. You know,

572
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 2: it just makes everything all the more exciting.

573
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 3: Right, I want to come back to that in a

574
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 3: minute here.

575
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 2: So Abouden writes, quote, if we are to look for

576
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 2: an external explanation for the Elusinian experience, the theater seems

577
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 2: a better place to look than the kitchen or brewery.

578
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 3: Again, that seems quite reasonable to me. You can't totally

579
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 3: rule out a pharmacological influence, but I don't think we

580
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 3: need to go there to explain anything.

581
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 2: Right, and it does create As McKenna pointed out, an

582
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 2: additional burden of proof is that is required. Now. I

583
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 2: looked at some more recent articles exploring the various psychedelic

584
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 2: theories regarding the Lyusinian mysteries, and you do see proponents

585
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,880
Speaker 2: still arguing that some of these theories, at least the

586
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,879
Speaker 2: psychotropic mushroom one, the mushroom theory, seems to be more

587
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:37,399
Speaker 2: valid and less fraught with complications compared to the aragot beer.

588
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 2: You know that one may be in the mix still,

589
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 2: but at the end of the day, all we can

590
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:45,839
Speaker 2: really do is speculate, and again it just adds an

591
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 2: additional level of evidence that would be required, evidence that

592
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:53,719
Speaker 2: we do not have, but certainly more possible, fewer complications

593
00:34:53,719 --> 00:35:05,360
Speaker 2: than saying maybe it was aliens by all means.

594
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 3: All right, So whether or not the people engaged in

595
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 3: this were consuming hallucinogenic barley mush again, no reason to

596
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 3: assume they needed to do that to explain anything we know,

597
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 3: but who knows maybe whether or not that was happening

598
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 3: after the public rituals at the end of the festival.

599
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 3: Not quite at the end, actually there was a little

600
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,760
Speaker 3: bit after this, but basically the climax of the festival.

601
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,320
Speaker 3: Once night had fallen, you would get to the big deal,

602
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 3: the secret rites inside the closed hall of mysteries, the

603
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 3: Telesterion so what was going on there? Well, here's where

604
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 3: we know a lot less, because, as we've discussed, those

605
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 3: who had not been initiated were not supposed to know,

606
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 3: and those who had been initiated were not supposed to tell.

607
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 3: But we have some clues. So there are ancient references

608
00:35:55,000 --> 00:36:01,760
Speaker 3: to the mysteries inside the Telesterion as quote things, things shown,

609
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 3: and things said, which is sort of vague, but that

610
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 3: still tells you a bit. It suggests there is a

611
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 3: visual display things shown, a physically enacted element, things done,

612
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 3: and a recited element things said aloud. The second to

613
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 3: third century Christian Church father Clement of Alexandria claims that

614
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 3: initiates to the Eleusinian mysteries had to recite a kind

615
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 3: of passphrase which translates too. I fasted, I drank the kookion,

616
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 3: I took from the chest, and having worked with the

617
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 3: sacred implements, I removed them into the basket and from

618
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:44,319
Speaker 3: the basket into the chest. Which that last part sounds like, oh,

619
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 3: the kind of activity that would just thrill my toddler

620
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 3: right now. Is that a common thing for kids at

621
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:50,879
Speaker 3: this age?

622
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 2: I don't know, I mean, does it ever go away?

623
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,399
Speaker 2: I love putting things in little boxes and taking things

624
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,320
Speaker 2: out of boxes. Yeah. I mean people watch whole videos

625
00:36:58,320 --> 00:36:59,919
Speaker 2: online just to see unboxings.

626
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 3: Right, so out of this box, into that box and

627
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 3: then back again.

628
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

629
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 3: Anyway, as for the things shown in that phrase, a

630
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,280
Speaker 3: lot of ancient sources, while not saying what was shown,

631
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 3: really emphasized the idea of the mysteries as a visual display.

632
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:20,240
Speaker 3: In fact, the priest of Demeter is known as the hyrafant,

633
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 3: which means that name translates to a person who shows

634
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 3: or displays sacred things. Now, this might be a good

635
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 3: place to talk a bit about the idea of the

636
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:34,280
Speaker 3: profanation of the mysteries. Bowden's book has a good little

637
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,320
Speaker 3: subsection on this, and you were alluding to it earlier

638
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 3: with the idea of that guy Alcibiades, the fifth century

639
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:47,400
Speaker 3: BCE Athens based general who he got in trouble because

640
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 3: the deal was he was like right about to head

641
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 3: off for a naval campaign to Sicily, so they're getting

642
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 3: ready to go to launch this expedition, and suddenly he

643
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 3: is accused by enemies of having revealed the mysteries of

644
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 3: Eleusis to non initiates, and in fact, the idea was

645
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,319
Speaker 3: not just that he told secrets, but that he sort

646
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:12,280
Speaker 3: of privatized the mysteries by recreating them in his house

647
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 3: with non initiated guests. I was trying to figure out,

648
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 3: like what exactly was the spirit of this recreation of

649
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 3: the mysteries, Like was he was he trying to get

650
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,720
Speaker 3: his own mysteries going, or was it in a spirit

651
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,360
Speaker 3: of mockery or irony. I'm not quite sure there.

652
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 2: Or kind of like being It could have been a

653
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 2: sense of he was like just a superfan. He's like,

654
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 2: I love this stuff so much, you know, he's just

655
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 2: s geeking out about it, wanting to share it with

656
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,800
Speaker 2: his buddies. But then in doing so, you know, commits

657
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 2: at least minor heresy. You know, these things can get

658
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:46,800
Speaker 2: out of control sometimes.

659
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 3: But this accusation is received as quite serious, like it

660
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:54,360
Speaker 3: would be a grave offense which would lead to divine punishment.

661
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 3: The kind of implication is, if you know, you send

662
00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 3: out a general out to war who has just profane

663
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 3: and the secret rights, the gods are going to work

664
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 3: their wrath on him with defeat in battle. And so

665
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 3: maybe this is a good place to come back and

666
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 3: explore the idea of the secrecy of the rights a

667
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 3: little more. We talked about this a minute ago, and

668
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 3: I had some more thoughts about this. Specifically. I was

669
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 3: reading about it in that book chapter by Kevin Clinton,

670
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 3: where he cites a passage by Aristotle which makes reference

671
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 3: to the mysteries, and I thought this was interesting. Aristotle says,

672
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:36,320
Speaker 3: in translation quote, the initiates are not supposed to learn anything,

673
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 3: but rather to experience and to be disposed in a

674
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:46,839
Speaker 3: certain way, that is, becoming manifestly fit or deserving. So

675
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 3: the cult has secrets which are only revealed to initiates.

676
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 3: But according to Aristotle at least, and I trust he

677
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 3: probably knew what he was talking about, the initiates are

678
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 3: not supposed to learn any thing. That's not the point.

679
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:04,359
Speaker 3: Coming back to something we talked about in an earlier part,

680
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 3: that the point of the cult is not an information puzzle.

681
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 3: It's not to learn the secret password. Instead, you are

682
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 3: supposed to have an experience. And even more interestingly about

683
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 3: what Aristotle says here, You're supposed to have an experience

684
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 3: and by virtue of that experience to become worthy. Now,

685
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 3: according to Clinton, the Greek word Aristotle uses for experience

686
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:32,920
Speaker 3: here does mean what we mean by experience, but it

687
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 3: also means to suffer. And Clinton argues that the secrecy

688
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:41,879
Speaker 3: of the mystery cults was not originally understood as the

689
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 3: point of them. Rather, it came to be perceived as

690
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 3: a defining aspect of them, sort of because of the

691
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 3: drama it implied, especially to non initiates, and because of

692
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:58,080
Speaker 3: the severe penalties for violation of those secrets. It seems

693
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,840
Speaker 3: this wasn't the case always is, because you can find counterexamples.

694
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 3: But it looks like, at least in some cases, the

695
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 3: punishment was supposed to be death. So, given the assumption

696
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 3: that the mystery cult was not actually about secrecy, the

697
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 3: secrecy was not the point, Clinton asks an interesting question quote,

698
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 3: we may then legitimately ask what actually was the point

699
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 3: of the secrecy? But first one must consider what is

700
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,800
Speaker 3: so special about a secret? A secret is a fact

701
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 3: or a representation of a human act that cannot be

702
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 3: disclosed beyond a certain group. What could be so exciting

703
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,839
Speaker 3: about a fact or an act that could draw thousands

704
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,439
Speaker 3: of people from all over the Greek world each year

705
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 3: to the mysteria? And of course we do get some

706
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,279
Speaker 3: attempts in the ancient world to kind of frame the

707
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:52,440
Speaker 3: secret of the Elusinian mysteries as something that would be

708
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 3: concealed for a reason of it being i don't know,

709
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:59,839
Speaker 3: scandalous or titillating. And some of these reports come from

710
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,760
Speaker 3: from early Christian writers, and that kind of makes sense,

711
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 3: like they would be maybe hostile to other religious practices

712
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:09,920
Speaker 3: and not worried about profaning them. But it's also unclear

713
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:12,839
Speaker 3: how accurate these these claims are and whether we should

714
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 3: believe their descriptions. But one example is that Clinton mentions

715
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 3: that some Christian authors claimed the big secret of the

716
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 3: Elysian mysteries is you got to watch a priest and

717
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:24,760
Speaker 3: a priestess have sex.

718
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 2: Again, I come back to the idea of some sort

719
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 2: of a sideshow tent. You go into the back and

720
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:34,919
Speaker 2: you get to see like a little something extra that's

721
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,280
Speaker 2: not for everyone who came to the main circus.

722
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, so again we have no way of knowing that's

723
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:43,319
Speaker 3: not true. But Clinton kind of argues against it. He

724
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,319
Speaker 3: says this would not be sufficient to attract the kind

725
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 3: of attention and like draw the kind of crowds from

726
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:52,399
Speaker 3: all around like are described like for one thing, it's

727
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:56,279
Speaker 3: not that unique, And to me it just sounds kind

728
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 3: of like a like a slander that one religion says

729
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 3: about another, And there were of slander's going the opposite

730
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:05,799
Speaker 3: way too, Slanders Greek and Roman polytheists accused Christians of

731
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:09,319
Speaker 3: being immoral, of engaging in cannibalism and incest and all

732
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 3: kinds of stuff.

733
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:12,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you just wanted to see a sexual act

734
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 2: or sexual act for performance, there are surely other shows

735
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:18,799
Speaker 2: in town. So yeah, this does sort of ring of

736
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 2: some sort of a slander, doesn't it, right?

737
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:25,400
Speaker 3: So instead, Clinton argues that the purpose of the secrecy

738
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 3: was in order to make the experience of the solemn

739
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 3: rituals feel extraordinary. And I mean this rings true to me.

740
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:41,800
Speaker 3: That that which we receive as common knowledge feels trivial,

741
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 3: that which is hidden and is specially revealed to us

742
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 3: feels like it gets an automatic leg up in profundity.

743
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 3: You know, it's just so much easier to interpret a

744
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 3: secret revealed to you as something that is meaningful in itself,

745
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 3: when in fact it doesn't need to be. And you

746
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 3: know that got me thinking, like, I don't mean to

747
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:11,400
Speaker 3: insult the mysteries by this or profound religious experiences in general,

748
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 3: but I kind of can't help make the comparison to

749
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:18,520
Speaker 3: a common sort of influencer who exists today that I

750
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 3: would characterize as like the influencer mystic, a person who

751
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 3: ostensibly traffics in insights somebody who is out there and

752
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 3: maybe they've got media channels or whatever, and they do

753
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 3: commentary and analysis or life advice. But their insights, at

754
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 3: least as I judge, might not be especially interesting or

755
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 3: seem especially valid if they were just presented in written

756
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 3: form or paraphrased into plain language. But this kind of

757
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:52,400
Speaker 3: influencer mystic can achieve a fan base because they're able

758
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:55,280
Speaker 3: to talk in a way that makes whatever they're saying

759
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:59,359
Speaker 3: feel like a great occult secret is being unearthed, and

760
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 3: by listening to them, you are the first witness to

761
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:06,319
Speaker 3: an unveiling of truths, which is an intoxicating feeling if

762
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 3: somebody can pull it off. And so, of course I'm

763
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:12,360
Speaker 3: speaking with a little bit of derision about these modern examples,

764
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 3: but you could also, at the same time use the

765
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:20,239
Speaker 3: theatrics of the unveiled secret to increase the salience of genuine,

766
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,759
Speaker 3: profound insights and experiences. So I'm not suggesting the Eleusinian

767
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 3: mysteries were necessarily hollow at their core or anything like that. Again,

768
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 3: there's just a lot we don't know about their core.

769
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 2: It's really interesting to think about this too in terms

770
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:39,800
Speaker 2: of the secular modern world and even the religious modern

771
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 2: world in many respects, Like we are so accustomed to

772
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 2: the idea that you can skip to the end and read,

773
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:51,880
Speaker 2: read the finish, read the conclusion, it would get a

774
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 2: bullet list of the main things that are important. And

775
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 2: so the idea that there would be levels to something

776
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 2: or some sort of a secret reveal that it is

777
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 2: not for everyone else to know it does kind of

778
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:08,440
Speaker 2: run counter to sort of the informational DNA that a

779
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 2: lot of us have.

780
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:12,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so while I think in the modern world

781
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:15,840
Speaker 3: this is often used for ill, it wouldn't necessarily have

782
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:17,480
Speaker 3: to be used for ill. But I think you can

783
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 3: get you can get a lot of persuasive and attentional

784
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:25,320
Speaker 3: mileage just by framing your opinion or whatever you're about

785
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 3: to say as a secret that is being unveiled to

786
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:30,400
Speaker 3: someone you know, Like I'm going to pull back the

787
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:31,000
Speaker 3: curtain now.

788
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:34,800
Speaker 2: I think the place, weirdly enough, where it is often

789
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 2: the most respected is in terms of narrative storytelling, particularly

790
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:44,400
Speaker 2: with movies and the idea of no spoilers. You know,

791
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 2: not only don't spoil this for me, but I think

792
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:49,359
Speaker 2: more profoundly, when you have an experience where there's some

793
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:51,800
Speaker 2: sort of a film out there and either is particularly

794
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:54,759
Speaker 2: well crafted or it does involve a particularly innovative twist

795
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 2: or effective twist, or an emotional twist, and people will stress,

796
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:01,360
Speaker 2: don't read the spoilers, go into this without you know,

797
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:03,800
Speaker 2: don't watch the trailer, go into it so that everything

798
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:07,359
Speaker 2: is a surprise, you know. Outside of that, like, there's

799
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:10,840
Speaker 2: not much that we're we're we generally engage in where

800
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,440
Speaker 2: we're open to that sort of experience. I mean, I

801
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:15,719
Speaker 2: guess in some respects we are like like, you know,

802
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:17,560
Speaker 2: some one might say, have a child. You don't know

803
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:19,360
Speaker 2: how this is going to turn out, but you're in

804
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 2: the long run, it's gonna be it's gonna be a surprise.

805
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:24,880
Speaker 2: There's gonna be some twists you're not expecting. It's true,

806
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:27,759
Speaker 2: but you know, the parenthood and movies, those are the

807
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 2: two examples that come to mind. But when it comes

808
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:32,360
Speaker 2: to religion, we're more of the mind, well, what are

809
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 2: they believe in? Give me a list? Is there a

810
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:36,680
Speaker 2: Holy book? All right? I'm gonna skip to the end

811
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 2: is maybe there's some cliff notes on it and so forth.

812
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, and that goes back to something we

813
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 3: talked about in the first episode of the series about

814
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 3: that anthropological framework of the doctrinal religious model versus the

815
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:54,400
Speaker 3: imagistic or religious model. Bowden makes reference to these ideas,

816
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 3: and the short version is that doctrinal modes of worship

817
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:03,879
Speaker 3: worship tend to be frequent, regular, low intensity, but also

818
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 3: have clear meaning and function. You can kind of have

819
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 3: a systematic explanation of what the purpose and meaning of

820
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 3: the rituals are, versus what's known as the imagistic model

821
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 3: of religious practice, where rituals tend to be rare, strange,

822
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:26,479
Speaker 3: high intensity, and more ambiguous in terms of meaning. Maybe

823
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:29,279
Speaker 3: nobody's even telling you what to make of the experience

824
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:32,839
Speaker 3: you had now, I guess the implication is that mysteries

825
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 3: such as the mysteries of ill Usis would be much

826
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:39,479
Speaker 3: more firmly in the imagistic mode of worship. That there's

827
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:44,920
Speaker 3: something profound, high intensity going on, and it may well

828
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:48,840
Speaker 3: be very ambiguous, very open to your own contemplation and interpretation.

829
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 3: Maybe nobody tells you what it means or even what

830
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:54,319
Speaker 3: it's doing. But that does bring us back to the

831
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 3: Secret Rights themselves. So what else can we guess about

832
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 3: the content of the mysteries? And here I'm going to

833
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 3: synthesize from multiple accounts, including Clinton's and Bowden's and a

834
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 3: few other things I've read. But it seems that, for

835
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:15,799
Speaker 3: one thing, the Secret Rights probably involved some reenactment of

836
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 3: the myth of Demeter and Corey. Now it's questionable to

837
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:24,799
Speaker 3: what extent it followed the story completely, which parts of

838
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:27,840
Speaker 3: the story were represented, and what version of the story

839
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 3: you got, but there are multiple clues pointing to the

840
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:35,240
Speaker 3: idea that some version of this story is being re enacted,

841
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 3: at least in part in these rituals. This could include

842
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 3: wandering around in the darkness, like searching for the kidnapped

843
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 3: daughter after her disappearance, possibly witnessing or hearing the grief

844
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:52,800
Speaker 3: stricken cries of Demeter. For at least part of the ritual,

845
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:56,760
Speaker 3: initiates may have been blindfolded or shrouded with a hood.

846
00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 3: Ancient authors make reference to something about this where they

847
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:03,120
Speaker 3: would probably be guided by their mystagogue, you know, the

848
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:06,799
Speaker 3: more experienced guide would would show them the way to

849
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:10,160
Speaker 3: go while they were baffled, and you know, and they

850
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:12,400
Speaker 3: didn't know where to go, stumbling around in the dark,

851
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:16,800
Speaker 3: and all of this before the initiates were eventually made

852
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:20,319
Speaker 3: aware somehow of the reunion of mother and daughter of

853
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:23,279
Speaker 3: Demeter and Corey at the end of the myth, and

854
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 3: then finally brought into the hall, like coming out of

855
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 3: the darkness into a hall brightly illuminated by torches for

856
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 3: a celebration and revealing of things hidden. Now again, those

857
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 3: last parts are they seem reasonable based on what we know,

858
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:41,359
Speaker 3: but we don't know for sure. That's the form it took.

859
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:43,920
Speaker 3: Torches seem to play a role. There are a lot

860
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 3: There are a lot of mentions of darkness and blindfoldedness

861
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:51,040
Speaker 3: and agony and struggles in the darkness and then coming

862
00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 3: into the light.

863
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:54,680
Speaker 2: You know. This brings me back. We talked again talking

864
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:58,520
Speaker 2: about haunted attractions and how you do encounter some that

865
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 2: are church affiliated. I have distinct memories of going to

866
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:05,360
Speaker 2: one as when I was a youth, as a rural

867
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:11,919
Speaker 2: southern church affiliated haunted house. And at the end, as

868
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 2: you wandered or perhaps rushed out of the darkness, pursued

869
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:19,000
Speaker 2: by chainsaws and the like, where do you enter into

870
00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:22,080
Speaker 2: you enter into a tent where a preacher is then

871
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:26,560
Speaker 2: going to speak to you and sell you on eternal

872
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 2: salvation and of course the alternatives that you just witnessed

873
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:31,800
Speaker 2: in the Haunted House.

874
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:36,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that high contrast creates an intensity, like an

875
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:42,279
Speaker 3: emotional motivation and intensity of experience that really I don't

876
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:45,360
Speaker 3: know in this case, again, we've already noted the difference

877
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 3: between like the Christian hell House or whatever variation there

878
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 3: where the goal is to I don't want to oversimplify,

879
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:54,959
Speaker 3: but I think it's fair to say usually at least

880
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:56,920
Speaker 3: the goal there is going to be to convert you

881
00:51:57,040 --> 00:51:59,840
Speaker 3: into the doctrinal form of that religion, to say, like,

882
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:03,440
Speaker 3: you belong to us. Now you've been convinced by witnessing

883
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:06,319
Speaker 3: these horrors, you need to go to our church. That

884
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 3: does not necessarily seem to be the goal here. I

885
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 3: don't detect based on what I've read that the purpose

886
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:18,799
Speaker 3: of the mysteries is a persuasive one that you need

887
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:22,359
Speaker 3: to like join the cult of ill usis though. I mean,

888
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 3: I guess the people who are who go through as

889
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:28,480
Speaker 3: mistas the first time, and this is a distinction the

890
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:30,879
Speaker 3: first time you are initiated to the mysteries. You were

891
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:34,319
Speaker 3: known as mistys or mistace, a term which seems to

892
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 3: derive from the concept of having one's eyes closed, and

893
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 3: then you would usually come back a second time and

894
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:44,160
Speaker 3: then you would be known as epop dase, which means

895
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 3: look or viewer. So there is a kind of return

896
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:52,160
Speaker 3: and the difference between those terms is interesting too, by

897
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 3: the way, because the difference between like mistace meaning eyes

898
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:59,000
Speaker 3: closed and a pop dase meaning looking or viewing, that

899
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:01,120
Speaker 3: could of course be little role like maybe the first

900
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:03,440
Speaker 3: time you do it you are blindfolded or hooded, and

901
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:06,480
Speaker 3: the second time you can look, or maybe there are

902
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:11,279
Speaker 3: particular elements that two time initiates are particular permitted to

903
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:14,360
Speaker 3: look upon the first time initiates or not. But this

904
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:16,879
Speaker 3: difference could also just refer to a kind of metaphorical

905
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:19,719
Speaker 3: perspective on what is happening, the same way that we

906
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:23,400
Speaker 3: say to have previous experience with something is to go

907
00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 3: into it with open eyes.

908
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:29,880
Speaker 2: For anyone out there who's listening with I don't know

909
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:31,720
Speaker 2: if this is really a listen with the whole family

910
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 2: sort of episode, but in the case event that you are,

911
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:38,239
Speaker 2: I'm about to throw out some Christmas spoilers so feel

912
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:42,520
Speaker 2: free to skip a bit if you wish. But this

913
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:47,160
Speaker 2: also reminds me of the way that some parents approach

914
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:51,800
Speaker 2: Santa Claus and Christmas traditions, the idea being that instead

915
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:55,480
Speaker 2: of just not doing them, or trying to keep the

916
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 2: myth and the or the fiction of Santa Claus going

917
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:04,880
Speaker 2: like well beyond it's a healthy phase, instead you kind

918
00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:07,200
Speaker 2: of break it down like this, where it is kind

919
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 2: of treated like a mystery when the child is young,

920
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:11,839
Speaker 2: and then when the child reaches a certain age, it's like,

921
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:14,319
Speaker 2: now you were part of the mystery, and now you

922
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:18,120
Speaker 2: can help create this mystery for perhaps younger siblings, other

923
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:21,240
Speaker 2: young people you know in the family or in the community,

924
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:23,840
Speaker 2: and so forth. And perhaps this is like a less

925
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 2: doctrinal example compared to the Haunted House thing, because I

926
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:32,880
Speaker 2: guess there's not really a doctrine regarding Santa that is

927
00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:35,319
Speaker 2: being pursued in the long run, though it is of

928
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:38,759
Speaker 2: course more certainly like narrative and so forth. And I

929
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:41,400
Speaker 2: guess perhaps the Santa Claus example is better than the

930
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:43,799
Speaker 2: Haunted House example because Santa Claus, there's not really a

931
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:46,640
Speaker 2: doctrine there that we're trying to drive home into children

932
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:49,040
Speaker 2: aside from be good or else, I guess.

933
00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:52,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, Oh, but I guess I got sidetracked there talking

934
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:56,719
Speaker 3: about the mistakes versus the apoptaes from talking about how

935
00:54:56,960 --> 00:54:59,239
Speaker 3: generally it seems like there is a difference between the

936
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:03,560
Speaker 3: hell house model and the mystery religion model because, or

937
00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:07,360
Speaker 3: at least this particular case, because in the all Usinian mysteries,

938
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:10,640
Speaker 3: it's like the experience is the point. It's not just

939
00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:13,520
Speaker 3: like a persuasive act to get you to do something

940
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:18,640
Speaker 3: else different right. Another interesting passage that is often cited

941
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:23,520
Speaker 3: in historical writing about the mystery religions is from Plutarch.

942
00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:29,320
Speaker 3: Or Plutarch characterizes the mysteries generally by way of metaphor.

943
00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:32,560
Speaker 3: What he's actually talking about is what happens to the

944
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:35,400
Speaker 3: soul at the end of life. But he's sort of saying,

945
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:37,080
Speaker 3: you know, what happens to the soul at the end

946
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:39,320
Speaker 3: of life is much like what you all know happens

947
00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:43,399
Speaker 3: after you're initiated into the mysteries. And to be clear,

948
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:46,360
Speaker 3: he doesn't say specifically he's talking about the Eleusinian mysteries,

949
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:49,480
Speaker 3: but he probably is. These were the most famous. So

950
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:54,120
Speaker 3: what Plutarch says is quote wandering astray in the beginning,

951
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:58,600
Speaker 3: tiresome walkings in circles, some frightening paths in darkness that

952
00:55:58,719 --> 00:56:01,920
Speaker 3: lead nowhere. Then, and immediately before the end, all the

953
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:06,440
Speaker 3: terrible things, panic and shivering and sweat and bewilderment. And

954
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:10,080
Speaker 3: then some wonderful light comes to meet you. Purer regions

955
00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:12,840
Speaker 3: and meadows are there to greet you with sounds and

956
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:17,239
Speaker 3: dances and solemn sacred words and holy views. And they're

957
00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:20,520
Speaker 3: the initiate, perfect by now set free and loose from

958
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:24,319
Speaker 3: all bondage, walks about, crowned with a wreath, celebrating the

959
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:27,600
Speaker 3: festival together with the other sacred and pure people. And

960
00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:31,399
Speaker 3: he looks down on the uninitiated, unpurified crowd in this

961
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 3: world in mud and fog beneath his feet.

962
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:36,960
Speaker 2: Oh wow, So.

963
00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:40,880
Speaker 3: That square somewhat with what we've already talked about, like

964
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:44,760
Speaker 3: this feeling of lightness and sort of ascension that comes

965
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:47,800
Speaker 3: with having gone through the mysteries. There is some lasting

966
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:50,320
Speaker 3: effect on people that they cite that they say is

967
00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:54,400
Speaker 3: very powerful and makes them feel better, makes them feel unafraid,

968
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:59,279
Speaker 3: set loose in some way, perfected in some way. But

969
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:01,400
Speaker 3: I also like that the first half of this passage,

970
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:05,720
Speaker 3: where it seems to be more describing, just in general

971
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:08,560
Speaker 3: and emotional terms, what the experience of going through the

972
00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:13,960
Speaker 3: mysteries is like. And it's one that begins with confusion, bafflement,

973
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:18,920
Speaker 3: exhaustion and suffering and ends with hope and cathartic relief.

974
00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:31,200
Speaker 3: And so I guess this brings us to the question

975
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:34,880
Speaker 3: of what did the mysteries mean to the people who

976
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:40,200
Speaker 3: practiced them Abouten explores this at length in his book Discussing.

977
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:43,600
Speaker 3: As we've already alluded to the possibility that the meaning

978
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:47,960
Speaker 3: of the mysteries was not made explicit. Instead, like the

979
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:52,560
Speaker 3: standard model of the imagistic mode of religion, it's sort

980
00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:57,320
Speaker 3: of left ambiguous. It invites participants to reflect later and

981
00:57:57,400 --> 00:58:00,160
Speaker 3: contemplate to figure out for themself what it means. And

982
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:03,560
Speaker 3: that's very interesting to me too, because I mean, a

983
00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:08,760
Speaker 3: huge part actually of what religion is, at least in

984
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:12,720
Speaker 3: my experience, is exegesis on what things mean. It's like,

985
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:17,640
Speaker 3: you know, religions have, or many religions have, you know,

986
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:20,960
Speaker 3: they have contents, they may have texts and stories, they

987
00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:25,200
Speaker 3: may have physical objects or places, they have rituals, and

988
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:30,360
Speaker 3: there's just so much effort devoted to clarifying what everything means,

989
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:32,880
Speaker 3: and that that's what a lot of people want out

990
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:35,480
Speaker 3: of religion today. You know, they want to understand how, what,

991
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:38,280
Speaker 3: why we do it? What how to make sense of it?

992
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:41,480
Speaker 3: But this version of religion may have been a kind

993
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:45,520
Speaker 3: of different one where it's like, instead, you witness something

994
00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:50,360
Speaker 3: and you go through something that is strange and overwhelming

995
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:52,840
Speaker 3: and powerful, and then you're kind of just sent home

996
00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:54,160
Speaker 3: to make your own sense of it.

997
00:58:54,480 --> 00:58:58,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, it's kind of like abstract art and

998
00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:02,200
Speaker 2: abstract cinema at its best right, where there's you go

999
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:05,520
Speaker 2: into it without any kind of expectations, you leave it

1000
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:11,440
Speaker 2: without any i would say, prescribed interpretations. You know, you're

1001
00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:14,160
Speaker 2: left to try and figure out what it possibly meant

1002
00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:16,600
Speaker 2: all on your own, and maybe it meant nothing, but

1003
00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:17,480
Speaker 2: you won't forget it.

1004
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:21,920
Speaker 3: Kevin Clinton, in his chapter writes, relying in part on

1005
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:25,760
Speaker 3: his own hypothetical reconstruction of the rituals. So the following

1006
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:30,680
Speaker 3: passage does include some assumptions based on guesses, but reasonable guesses,

1007
00:59:31,640 --> 00:59:36,040
Speaker 3: so Clinton writes, quote, the mysteria revealed simple things like

1008
00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:38,840
Speaker 3: the return of a lost daughter to her mother, a

1009
00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:44,000
Speaker 3: goddess in suffering parentheses, an extraordinary state for a Greek

1010
00:59:44,040 --> 00:59:47,960
Speaker 3: god or goddess, joy that accompanies the appearance of grain,

1011
00:59:48,640 --> 00:59:53,800
Speaker 3: the grain that is plutos, meaning wealth, the agrarian prosperity

1012
00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:58,000
Speaker 3: that sustains family and clan, all simple things that at

1013
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:01,919
Speaker 3: the same time had profound signs magnificance. The impact lay

1014
01:00:01,960 --> 01:00:05,600
Speaker 3: in part in the dramatic presentation, which was an essential

1015
01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:10,840
Speaker 3: aspect of the experience, And that kind of takes me

1016
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:13,680
Speaker 3: to another place, which is it makes me think I've

1017
01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:16,200
Speaker 3: been thinking about this primarily from the point of view

1018
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:19,760
Speaker 3: of the new initiate, the mistas or the apoptes, you know,

1019
01:00:19,840 --> 01:00:22,240
Speaker 3: who's for the first or second time going through the

1020
01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:25,280
Speaker 3: greater mysteries and experiencing it and seeing what it means.

1021
01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:28,280
Speaker 3: But this kind of makes me think about it from

1022
01:00:28,280 --> 01:00:30,640
Speaker 3: the point of view of the priesthood. Say you are

1023
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:33,520
Speaker 3: a hierofant or you're one of the people whose job

1024
01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:37,640
Speaker 3: it is to put on the show of the Eleusinian mysteries,

1025
01:00:38,120 --> 01:00:40,960
Speaker 3: it seems actually there's quite a burden. There's quite a

1026
01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:45,280
Speaker 3: burden to put on a good show because people are

1027
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:48,040
Speaker 3: sort of relying on the fact that you put on

1028
01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:51,919
Speaker 3: a good show in order to find meaning in their life,

1029
01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:55,000
Speaker 3: to escape their fear of death, to feel like their

1030
01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:58,240
Speaker 3: life will have blessings yet to come, and they fit

1031
01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:02,160
Speaker 3: in a divine order, which is fascinating. And I guess

1032
01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:05,640
Speaker 3: something that people I don't know religious performers and in

1033
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:10,280
Speaker 3: other situations probably do feel a similar kind of obligation.

1034
01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:14,560
Speaker 3: But it again made all the more alluring in this

1035
01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:17,439
Speaker 3: case because of the power of the secrecy, because there

1036
01:01:17,520 --> 01:01:19,320
Speaker 3: I think, we still don't know. There's some things we

1037
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:21,480
Speaker 3: don't know. We don't know exactly what they were doing,

1038
01:01:21,520 --> 01:01:23,880
Speaker 3: and it's like it's agonizing. You want to know, but

1039
01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:24,760
Speaker 3: we can't.

1040
01:01:25,080 --> 01:01:27,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, we want it all laid out, Like from a

1041
01:01:27,120 --> 01:01:31,640
Speaker 2: historical standpoint, from an anthropology of religion standpoint, we want

1042
01:01:31,680 --> 01:01:33,640
Speaker 2: to know what were the things that were believe, what

1043
01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:36,520
Speaker 2: were the things that were enacted, and what was the

1044
01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:40,480
Speaker 2: import of those things, and for varying reasons, we have

1045
01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:43,520
Speaker 2: a lot of holes. All right, Well, on that note,

1046
01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:45,280
Speaker 2: we're going to go ahead and close out this episode,

1047
01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:48,040
Speaker 2: but we have decided we will come back with at

1048
01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:51,400
Speaker 2: least a fourth episode on the Mystery Cults, and it

1049
01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:53,520
Speaker 2: may not be the next episode of Stuff to Blow

1050
01:01:53,560 --> 01:01:57,720
Speaker 2: your mind, It may occur after that. So in the

1051
01:01:57,760 --> 01:02:01,280
Speaker 2: not too distant future, you will under a fourth episode

1052
01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:04,720
Speaker 2: and we'll continue this fascinating discussion. There are so many

1053
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:06,680
Speaker 2: different mystery cults and we're not going to be able

1054
01:02:06,680 --> 01:02:08,640
Speaker 2: to discuss all of them, and we're of course not

1055
01:02:08,680 --> 01:02:12,720
Speaker 2: going to get into everything that Balden discusses in his book. Again,

1056
01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:15,240
Speaker 2: we do highly recommend you check that out if you

1057
01:02:15,280 --> 01:02:17,840
Speaker 2: are interested in the topic. The title of that book again,

1058
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:21,440
Speaker 2: his Mystery Cults in the Ancient World by Hugh Bowden.

1059
01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:25,080
Speaker 2: In the meantime, we'd like to remind everyone that's Stuff

1060
01:02:25,080 --> 01:02:27,800
Speaker 2: to Blow Your Mind is primarily a science and culture podcast,

1061
01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:30,640
Speaker 2: with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. We have a

1062
01:02:30,680 --> 01:02:33,240
Speaker 2: short form episode on Wednesdays, and on Fridays we set

1063
01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:35,920
Speaker 2: aside most serious concerns to just talk about a weird

1064
01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:38,280
Speaker 2: film on Weird House Cinema.

1065
01:02:38,640 --> 01:02:42,120
Speaker 3: Huge things, as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

1066
01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:43,960
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

1067
01:02:43,960 --> 01:02:46,360
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

1068
01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:48,479
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

1069
01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:51,560
Speaker 3: you can email us at contact Stuff to Blow your

1070
01:02:51,560 --> 01:03:00,240
Speaker 3: Mind dot com.

1071
01:03:00,400 --> 01:03:03,320
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

1072
01:03:03,440 --> 01:03:07,240
Speaker 1: more podcasts, from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,

1073
01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:22,680
Speaker 1: or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.