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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Ah, that's probably a bad way to open the nineteenth

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Speaker 2: most popular podcast on the Internet.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to say that.

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Speaker 2: Today I did, I did. I did ever since you

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Speaker 2: sent me that thing, So if you have been trying,

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Speaker 2: I wanted to work it in organically though, right. Otherwise

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Speaker 2: people would think that we're you know, we're losing our

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Speaker 2: minds from the fat Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Hell yeah, but we are number nine to Andrew.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, congratulngratulations to us. Yeah from us.

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Speaker 1: We're not lying.

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Speaker 2: This is like when I buy myself a Christmas present.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, just like a little treat. It's like it's like

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Speaker 3: getting an extra extra donut. Yeah, yeah, an extra donut something.

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Speaker 2: Andrew t what how goes? How goes the strike? Andrew? Uh,

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Speaker 2: still striking?

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Speaker 3: I brought a a second dog to the picket line

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Speaker 3: on Friday.

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Speaker 2: A second dog has hit the picket line. She was

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Speaker 2: a huge hit. That's good. That's good. That's good. That's

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Speaker 2: all I mean.

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Speaker 3: As of this episode coming out, we're closer to Its

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Speaker 3: potentially possible that the strike is.

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Speaker 2: Over by the time you hear this. I would give

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Speaker 2: it fifteen percent chance the strike is over. And this

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Speaker 2: is all silly. This intro but again, if the strike

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Speaker 2: is over, we will cut in an ad for a

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Speaker 2: random television show you know exactly. Y. Yeah, it'll be good. Andrew.

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Speaker 2: As we speak this to great Hollywood celebrities, real like

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Speaker 2: titans of the industry, just announced that they were bringing

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Speaker 2: their shows back and then got curb stopped the verbal

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Speaker 2: equivalent of curb stopped. Yes, yeah, Is that funny or not?

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Speaker 2: How are you Where are you landing on that? I

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Speaker 2: because where I'm sitting, I think it was pretty funny.

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Speaker 2: I the the about face came so quickly that it

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Speaker 2: was really like two days yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so so that that kind of like the whiplash

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Speaker 3: of it. I think the the equally funny part is

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Speaker 3: everyone having to kind of walk back congratulations or walk

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Speaker 3: back the things they said to Drew Barrymore, who I

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Speaker 3: think people largely still kind of like, and then also

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Speaker 3: not really doing the equivalent for Bill Maher.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. The not funny side of it is

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Speaker 1: the telling people that they can start working again when

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Speaker 1: they actually can't and yes, and like that's that's the

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Speaker 1: people that are not you know, sagger wga that work

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Speaker 1: on sets, and being like, oh, you're gonna get to

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Speaker 1: come back to work and the answer is no, you're not,

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Speaker 1: and I'm just a selfless narcissist.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there there was no good reason for any of this.

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Speaker 3: I mean, the the Drew Barrymore of it. It's I'm

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Speaker 3: just going to give I guess her the benefit of

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Speaker 3: the doubt and say she was probably deceived over what

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Speaker 3: the rules are. And I will equally assume that Bill Maher,

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Speaker 3: given his personal politics, he would have scabbed sooner. He

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Speaker 3: just didn't have the opportunity his seeson.

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Speaker 1: Is there anybody else that would have loved to have

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Speaker 1: scabbed more than Bill Maher, I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, So whatever they have on him, it's very legit.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, no, I mean because he would have been

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Speaker 3: just straight up openly scabbing, whereas Drew Barrymore would have

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Speaker 3: been like functionally almost certainly scabbing on some level, but

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Speaker 3: in a much more difficult to prove way. But you know,

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Speaker 3: Bill Maher is a member of the Writers Guild.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, fuck. Bill Maher is more or less

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Speaker 2: where we're heading here. You know, like Bill Maher, you know,

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Speaker 2: you know who has been consistent in their principles all

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Speaker 2: of their lives is g Gordon Lyddy, the g Man Liddy. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: he never uh, he's always been been honest about who

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Speaker 2: he is. Yeah, that's not a great thing, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's like, but it is a thing. Yeah, you gotta

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Speaker 2: you gotta acknowledge that. So when we when we last

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Speaker 2: left off the g Man, uh, he had joined the

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Speaker 2: FBI compared it directly to the s S in a

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Speaker 2: positive sense, favorably, Yeah, favorably. Yeah, as America's protective echelon.

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Speaker 2: So he's in Indiana a while, he learns how to

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Speaker 2: cowboy gun fight from these great cowboy gunfighters and then

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Speaker 2: the uh and then he totally gets super close to

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Speaker 2: needing to use his handgun, but he never quite has to.

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Speaker 2: But what he does have like multiple stories where he like,

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Speaker 2: it's everything up to and then like but then before

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Speaker 2: I I could pull my gun, you know, the situation ended,

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Speaker 2: so everything was fine. Well, maybe we don't need to

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Speaker 2: hear about that. Then that's not very interesting. G Gordon Liddy.

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Speaker 2: So he gets transferred to Denver. After that, he's involved

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Speaker 2: in he is involved in the arrest of at least

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Speaker 2: one major criminal. One of these guys that's on the

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Speaker 2: FBI's most wanted list, and then based according to his

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Speaker 2: recitation of events, he gets transferred to FBI headquarters in DC,

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Speaker 2: and he becomes incredibly close with j Edgar Hoover, so

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Speaker 2: close that all of the older agents are jealous because

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Speaker 2: Hoover wants to spend a lot of time with Lyddy

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Speaker 2: and not them. So that's not what happened. And again

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Speaker 2: this is thankfully, this is what I'm not going into

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Speaker 2: as much detail about what Liddy claims because we have

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Speaker 2: other sources on his time in the FBI and they

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Speaker 2: are very different than what he claims. So he is

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Speaker 2: involved in one high profile arrest, but there's evidence that

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Speaker 2: his superiors like they had issues with his errat and

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Speaker 2: irrational behavior. One of his supervisors described him as a

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Speaker 2: wild man and a super klutz basically just like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: this guy is kind of out of his mind. And

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Speaker 2: he's also like he fucks up constantly, Like whenever he's

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Speaker 2: given a chance to do something, he's going to make

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Speaker 2: some stupid mistake. He's like a Nazi Elmer. That is

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Speaker 2: like really, it's a great comparison. And so the kind

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Speaker 2: of attitude that like some of these people who like

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Speaker 2: supervise him is is like, yeah, he just he couldn't

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Speaker 2: be relied on. And because it's you know, this is

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Speaker 2: the FBI. Right, one thing the FBI, especially under Hoover,

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Speaker 2: was good at was not leaking shit. So we don't

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Speaker 2: have as much detail as I'd like on what specifically

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Speaker 2: he fucked up, But given that this is consistent with

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Speaker 2: his performance later in life, I'm going to choose to

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Speaker 2: side with his superiors here rather than claim that he

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Speaker 2: was just super good at the FBI. Yeah. Yeah, And

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Speaker 2: this makes if he's if he really is just like

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Speaker 2: kind of incompetent, it makes his transfer to DC makes

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Speaker 2: sense because like that is kind of what they did

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Speaker 2: a lot to guys who were bad at being in

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Speaker 2: the field, Like you move from a place where you

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Speaker 2: can kind of you can keep track of them. Like

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Speaker 2: he gets he gets transferred to the record division, which

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Speaker 2: is like that's where you put a dude you can't

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Speaker 2: fire for some reason, but who like can't be trusted

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Speaker 2: out with a gun.

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Speaker 3: That's like the punishment in like the second act of

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Speaker 3: a loose cannon cop movie.

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Speaker 2: Right, Like that is, yes, go file some papers, g

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Speaker 2: Gordon Lyddy, get them, stay the fuck away from from

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Speaker 2: the world. Lyddy would go on to claim that he

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Speaker 2: was the youngest bureau supervisor in agency history. You'll see

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Speaker 2: this sighted in like write ups of his career periodically,

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Speaker 2: but they only ever cite him. So I'm gonna go

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Speaker 2: ahead and say that's probably either not true or not impressive. Right,

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Speaker 2: he did get a couple of like commendations from Hoover,

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Speaker 2: but like, that's not it doesn't appear to be that

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Speaker 2: big a deal. Wikipedia also lists those claims as citations needed,

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Speaker 2: So again, not gonna go out on a limb and

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Speaker 2: say he was definitely awarded by Hoover. Former FBI officials

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Speaker 2: interviewed by journalist Anthony Lucas later would claim that Liddy

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Speaker 2: got pushed out of the FBI because he was seen

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Speaker 2: as dangerous and unreliable. You know, we don't get tons

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Speaker 2: of detail on what exactly caused him to get pushed out,

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Speaker 2: but there are some pieces from Lyddy's autobiography that may

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Speaker 2: suggest why. For example, this line, my son Jim was

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Speaker 2: born in April of nineteen sixty one, and I was

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Speaker 2: so elated at finally having a boy that when I

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Speaker 2: thought about it the next day, driving through an unpopulated area,

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Speaker 2: I stopped the car and fired three rounds into the

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Speaker 2: air and a private ceremony of celebration, just firing his

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Speaker 2: service weapon randomly into the sky to celebrate. Yeah, unpopulated area.

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Speaker 3: Okay, lyddy man, it is it is wild. Having done

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Speaker 3: the show a few times now, how much of history's

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Speaker 3: damage has been done by huge nerds?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, just a big old dork.

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Speaker 3: It's really like they Yeah, I mean I guess that's why.

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Speaker 3: But it's you know, we're not We're not cruel enough

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Speaker 3: to nerds.

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Speaker 2: I'm realizing. No, that's yeah. I think we need like

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Speaker 2: a national conversation about how to be crueler to them. Though, yes, yes, yes, yes,

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Speaker 2: what's the what's the actual appropriate way to handle this? Right?

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Speaker 2: That's the problem is the wrong people are bullies? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: the wrong because you, like, somebody needed to g Gordon

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Speaker 2: Liddy needed more shame of the things that were going

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Speaker 2: on in his head. He needed to feel worse in

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Speaker 2: a specific way about himself. But like if you just

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Speaker 2: had again, like a kid, just like shoving him into

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Speaker 2: a locker at school, that's not going to work on

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Speaker 2: this guy. You need there needs to be some more

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Speaker 2: like art to it, you know. But really his dad,

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Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know how you like get

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Speaker 2: Like I think if his dad had been more aware

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Speaker 2: of the kind of shit going on in his brain,

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Speaker 2: he could have like shamed it out of him, Like, right,

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Speaker 2: what are you doing shooting your handgun in the air

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Speaker 2: to celebrate having a kid? Give me that gun? Give

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Speaker 2: me that gun? Gordon like, I'm keeping.

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Speaker 4: This no gun privileges until you're not allowed to have this,

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Speaker 4: it's pretty cool, and he like he goes on this

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Speaker 4: rant in his book about how like at the FBI,

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Speaker 4: you know, you're allowed to carry a gun off duty

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Speaker 4: and you don't have to, but if you're in a

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Speaker 4: bad situation, if something happens around you and you're not

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Speaker 4: able to stop it because you don't have a gun,

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Speaker 4: you get in trouble.

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Speaker 2: So I always had my gun. He just he needs you.

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Speaker 2: And again, there's never any like it's one of those

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Speaker 2: like it feels almost like he's setting up something that's

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Speaker 2: gonna happen later. But g Gordon Liddy never had any

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Speaker 2: cause to use a firearm in his entire life, Like,

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Speaker 2: at no point was this even remotely necessary for him.

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Speaker 2: So he's this is all just pointless. He just needs

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Speaker 2: you to know that he carried a gun around for

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Speaker 2: several years.

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Speaker 3: God, I know the the like they like, oh no, no,

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Speaker 3: I need this because if I don't fucking save the day,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to get in trouble. It's like, yeah, still

201
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Speaker 3: somehow Weasley, which is amazing.

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Speaker 2: It's just like, yeah, it's so funny. So Lyddy claims

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Speaker 2: that everyone at the FBI loved him, but he just

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Speaker 2: wasn't making enough money to support his growing family because

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Speaker 2: his wife. His wife is popping out kids at an

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Speaker 2: alarming rate, right, she is like putting out new liddies

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Speaker 2: at the same speed with which he is firing bullets wildly,

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Speaker 2: and this becomes a problem, he says, for their for

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Speaker 2: their bottom line, and so you know, he decides to quit,

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Speaker 2: and the FBI is like, we love you. Letty, you know,

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Speaker 2: come back anytime. We'd love to have you again. We've

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Speaker 2: we've stamped your paperwork with a special thing that means

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Speaker 2: you can come back anytime you want. People within the

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Speaker 2: FBI are like, yeah, we were doing everything we could

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Speaker 2: to force him to leave. So you know that said,

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Speaker 2: I do think there's probably a good chance his family

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Speaker 2: financial situation is not great one of these reasons might

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Speaker 2: be and again this is a reading between the lines,

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Speaker 2: but every time he talks about his gun collection, it's

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Speaker 2: like very large. So part of this may just be

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Speaker 2: that he's spending all of his child money on new handguns. Now,

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Speaker 2: the central issue is that Lyddy and his wife are

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Speaker 2: devout Catholics. Now, I don't know if you know much

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Speaker 2: about Catholics, but Catholics, like all humans, like to fuck,

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Speaker 2: and Catholics, unlike most humans, are not allowed to use

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Speaker 2: birth control. Right, So this is part of why there's

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Speaker 2: a round a billion of Catholics, you know. So Lyddy

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Speaker 2: and his wife they try to use the rhythm method

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Speaker 2: to avoid having more kids, and he can't write that like, well,

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Speaker 2: the rhythm method's clearly bullshit, So he just writes that, like, well,

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Speaker 2: it didn't work for us, you know, we had after

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Speaker 2: four children, it had become clear that the rhythm method

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Speaker 2: does not work for my Maybe it just doesn't work,

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Speaker 2: g Gordon Liddy. Maybe it's a bad method of birth. God,

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Speaker 2: hey everyone, my phrasing hair was not great. I didn't

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Speaker 2: mean to say that the rhythm method like can't work.

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Speaker 2: You know, obviously biologically it does it's just that realistically,

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Speaker 2: I don't think it is an effective method of birth control,

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Speaker 2: particularly for people in long term relationships. I think G

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Speaker 2: Gordon Liddie's case is a pretty good example of this.

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Speaker 2: There are a lot of others, but obviously, like biologically,

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Speaker 2: if you were to do it perfectly, it would work.

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Speaker 2: It's just not a very good idea compared to modern

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Speaker 2: forms of contraception.

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Speaker 3: And what are most opportunity to talk about what amazing

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Speaker 3: sperm he has. You know, he could have just claimed

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Speaker 3: he was unbelievably fertile.

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Speaker 2: He's just too potent. Yeah. No, the fact that the

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Speaker 2: rhythm method doesn't work is not really This is not

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Speaker 2: really a problem for g Gordon Liddy because he wanted

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Speaker 2: six children and he claims that fran did two, and

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Speaker 2: in true g Gordon Liddy fashion, his reasoning for wanting

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Speaker 2: six kids is some of the craziest shit I've ever read. Quote.

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Speaker 2: She had grown up as a lonely only child. I

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Speaker 2: had a sister and a cousin who was a de

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Speaker 2: facto brother, and I missed a large number of people

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Speaker 2: always present at home. I was also aware that children

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Speaker 2: can be lost to sickness, accident, or war. And six

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Speaker 2: would raise substantially the probability that at least some offspring

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Speaker 2: would survive. Just as important, I recognize that a child

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Speaker 2: can lose itself through failure of the will to achieve,

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Speaker 2: and that having six would make it easier to accept

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Speaker 2: and write off such a living death as well. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you need more kids so you can write them off

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Speaker 2: if one of them is a dead person while alive still, well,

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Speaker 2: I think he just caught on some level.

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Speaker 3: Those he's bringing real loser jenes to the table, So

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Speaker 3: he's really hatging his bets.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you gotta be careful if you're like bringing liddly

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Speaker 2: grad genetics to the table, because it's that kid's just

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Speaker 2: got to be a fuck up.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just tough's he brings fuck up to the table.

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Speaker 3: So you like, you know, you break out the Punnett

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Speaker 3: square a little bit of the recessive traits. Yeah, the

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Speaker 3: math that got him personally to six.

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Speaker 2: I would love to see.

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Speaker 3: I'd love to see his little scroll notebook, like one

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Speaker 3: loser one he dead.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there are one. At least one of them is

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Speaker 2: gonna you know, lose them, lose their mind, So we

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Speaker 2: gotta we write one off and being liddy's a good

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Speaker 2: at three of them are going to die in a war,

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Speaker 2: so that gives us two that make it to yeah two,

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Speaker 2: and then one of them is a natural loser. So yeah, yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 2: this is just the minimum we need, you know, just

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Speaker 2: given given my worthless genes, this is the only way

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Speaker 2: to share enough liddies survive. Oh yes, it's it's it's

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Speaker 2: a logic like this that has ensured that we still

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Speaker 2: have g Gordon liddies today everybody. So yeah, Now, unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: Fran's body does not handle multiple pregnancies in quick succession

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Speaker 2: very well, right, And yeah, I don't say that to

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Speaker 2: like make what four kids. I think eventually five in

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Speaker 2: you know the space of like five years is too

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Speaker 2: many kids, maybe, like maybe you shouldn't have that many

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Speaker 2: kids that quickly. That's a lot to deal with. She

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Speaker 2: dealt with increasing pain each time, and eventually their doctor

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Speaker 2: sits them down and is like she could die, right,

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Speaker 2: like this is like she can't have any more kids,

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Speaker 2: you know, like this is we need to stop here.

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Speaker 2: So you know, eventually they shop around for a Catholic

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Speaker 2: priest because they want a priest who will advise them

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Speaker 2: that it's okay for her to take birth control, because

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Speaker 2: you know, these things go. They have one more kid

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Speaker 2: during this process, but Lyddy decides to give up after that.

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Speaker 2: And this may be the most like Moonman ass piece

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Speaker 2: of reasoning that I have encountered in his book. Although

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Speaker 2: one of the reasons I had chosen Francis to be

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Speaker 2: the mother of my children was her size and strength,

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Speaker 2: which should have enabled her to bear half a dozen

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Speaker 2: hyperform Orman's children, I certainly had not intended to risk

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Speaker 2: damage by pushing her to her design limit. Oh no,

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Speaker 2: you're not to talk that way about their wives, g

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Speaker 2: Gordon Lyddy. He's like actual Marvin the Martian m He's

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Speaker 2: talking like about his his his ill wife and his

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Speaker 2: children as if he's like a fucking GM factory.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, designs limitation, their design limit.

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Speaker 2: She should have been putting out six high performance children

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Speaker 2: by this period.

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Speaker 3: So high performance asterisk Lyddy failure rate exactly all.

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Speaker 2: Of these kids should already be shooting handguns into the

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Speaker 2: air at random. They haven't hurted any squirrels. So he

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Speaker 2: quits the FBI and takes a gig with his dad's firm,

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Speaker 2: where he immediately gets a huge raise. So this is

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Speaker 2: again the only job that would take him, I think,

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Speaker 2: is how I interpret this. He says his day was

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Speaker 2: desperate for him to come work for them, and like

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Speaker 2: had been just trying for years and was so happy.

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Speaker 2: But he also writes that, like as soon as he

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Speaker 2: gets to work there, they start fighting every It destroys

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Speaker 2: their relationship because his dad like cannot stand him as

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Speaker 2: like a business partner. And my guess is going to

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Speaker 2: be because he keeps suggesting crazy shit that would get

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Speaker 2: them both thrown in prison, and like his dad has

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Speaker 2: constantly no, you have to not do that. Seems likely, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: seems like good direction. She was like the g man. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So his description is that despite the fact that he's

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Speaker 2: very good at this job, he has to quit this

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Speaker 2: as well to save his relationship with his father and

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Speaker 2: go into public practice as a for a DA's office

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Speaker 2: in New York State in order to preserve their relationship. Now,

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Speaker 2: by the point that he does this, this is like

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Speaker 2: sixty two or sixty three something like that, the swing

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Speaker 2: in sixties are well underway, and our boy is starting

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Speaker 2: to pay attention to the resistance that has built in

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Speaker 2: the country to the involvement of US troops in a

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Speaker 2: little country I might have heard of called Vietnam. You know,

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Speaker 2: if you're unaware, Vietnam is a country in Southeast Asia

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Speaker 2: that we had a disagreement with and they want Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so this had started. The whole kerfuffle in Vietnam had

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Speaker 2: started due to the failure of French forces to maintain

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Speaker 2: control of Indo China and a bunch of unhinged fears

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Speaker 2: among US policymakers that the spread of communism in Vietnam

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Speaker 2: would lead to a series of falling dominoes that ended

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Speaker 2: with a unified communist Asia under China. Now, if you

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Speaker 2: read Po Chi Minh, if you're aware at all of

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Speaker 2: like Vietnamese history, that was never in the carts, right,

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Speaker 2: The last thing anyone in Vietnam ever wanted was to

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Speaker 2: be part of like a Chinese dominated block. And they

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Speaker 2: immediately go to war with China as soon as they

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Speaker 2: kick us out, right, Like, that's the first thing that

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Speaker 2: Vietnam does after finishing us off is fight with China

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Speaker 2: and Cambodia.

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Speaker 3: You know, the this is this is a thing that

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Speaker 3: happens on Jos's racist all the time. Is that you know,

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Speaker 3: if these motherfuckers were less racist, they would be able

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Speaker 3: to achieve their imperialism gains better. They would have realized

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Speaker 3: not all these chinks love each other.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a there's a there's a joke that I

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Speaker 2: saw going around Twitter recently, which is like, if somebody

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Speaker 2: could have explained, had explained to like the leaders of

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Speaker 2: Northern Vietnam right at the start of the war with

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Speaker 2: the US, that like in fifty years they'd be allied

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Speaker 2: with the US against China, they would have said, yeah,

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Speaker 2: sounds about right, Yeah, totally possible, absolutely could happen. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: this is their assholes. Yeah, this goes into we just

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Speaker 2: talked about this a little on our episodes about Scott

377
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Speaker 2: Adams's terrible books and his beliefs about the Muslim world.

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Speaker 2: But like, one of the things you need to keep

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Speaker 2: in mind, no matter what fucked up shit like a

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Speaker 2: foreign country far away is doing to a group of people,

381
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:02,919
Speaker 2: those people are always in their hearts going to be

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Speaker 2: angrier at somebody who lives next door to them. That's

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Speaker 2: just the way human being. It's like the United States,

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Speaker 2: like we get we have our Panics over like Islam,

385
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,800
Speaker 2: or our Panics over China, but like fucking people in

386
00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:17,920
Speaker 2: Texas always hate people in Oklahoma more than anyone else

387
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Speaker 2: on this planet. Like that's just the way it is.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, no, or their neighbors or their neighbors city.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah yeah, those people are actually murdering or whatever. Yes,

390
00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:37,679
Speaker 2: this is just how humans work. So this is patent nonsense,

391
00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,840
Speaker 2: this whole domino theory. But arch warriors, like cold warriors

392
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Speaker 2: like G. Gordon Liddy, absolutely believed it. Here are some

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Speaker 2: other things that G. Gordon Liddy believed about Vietnam. This

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Speaker 2: is this is him summarizing the situation with France following

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Speaker 2: the close of World War Two, when the French were

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Speaker 2: fighting the viet Men and Indo China. They were at

397
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Speaker 2: first highly successful. That was because they were using the

398
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Speaker 2: foreign legion then manned almost completely by veterans from the

399
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Speaker 2: most disciplined, ruthlessly efficient practitioners of all that warfare and history,

400
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Speaker 2: the Waffen SS. It was only was made public and

401
00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,240
Speaker 2: political pressure forced their removal that the French began to lose.

402
00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,760
Speaker 2: He cannot, he cannot stop bringing up the SS. Like

403
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:22,520
Speaker 2: almost every chapter, the SS comes up, and there's never

404
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,320
Speaker 2: a good reason for it. And it's like, this is

405
00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,720
Speaker 2: the eighties, this is the eighties.

406
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Speaker 3: It's pretty I mean, this is kind of the last

407
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:37,320
Speaker 3: time Nazis were basically universally froud upod. I would have thought,

408
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:43,120
Speaker 3: amongst like Gordon Lyddy, Yeah, what do I.

409
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Speaker 2: Know this is? I should start by saying nonsense. It

410
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:50,200
Speaker 2: is true. There were some members of the Waffen SS.

411
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Speaker 2: So the SS is like a state within a state

412
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Speaker 2: in Nazi Germany, right, They are this racial elite. They

413
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Speaker 2: have a huge amount of power in the political system.

414
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Speaker 2: They do a lot of like a lot of the

415
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,840
Speaker 2: guys individual like people who are managing all of the

416
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:06,560
Speaker 2: different police departments and stuff in Nazi Germany are members

417
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Speaker 2: of the SS. They also have, you know, they exercise

418
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Speaker 2: a lot of control over the industrial apparatus that was

419
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,440
Speaker 2: kind of the goal that Himmler was building towards. And

420
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Speaker 2: in addition to using them to like breed more Arians,

421
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Speaker 2: there are divisions of the SS that also fight as

422
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 2: regular military units or kind of in a fashion similar

423
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Speaker 2: to and these guys are called the waffen SS. Waffen

424
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:30,720
Speaker 2: just means weapons, right, So the Waffen SS is the

425
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Speaker 2: weapons SS. Right now, there are a lot of like

426
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:36,760
Speaker 2: lies and myths. As we're about to talk about about

427
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:40,000
Speaker 2: how well, the Waffen SS functions. The fact that the

428
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,440
Speaker 2: foreign legions, some of these guys after the war wind

429
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,800
Speaker 2: up in the foreign legion is not really weird, nor

430
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,160
Speaker 2: is it out. It's not specifically even because of World

431
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,240
Speaker 2: War Two, right, it's not because historically, if you look

432
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 2: at the foreign legion, it's usually like half or more

433
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,480
Speaker 2: German guys. This is just like a thing about the

434
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,240
Speaker 2: way it has always been constructed. The French foreign legion

435
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 2: has always been heavily Germanic. About sixty percent of it

436
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 2: in the post war period were Dutch, Austrian, Swiss, Belgian

437
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 2: or most commonly German. And there's a good chance that

438
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:15,240
Speaker 2: about fifty thousand Germans cycled through French Indo China during

439
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 2: the post war stages of the conflict there, but that

440
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 2: doesn't tell the whole story. The Vietmen did like to

441
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 2: claim that all of their captive French soldiers were SS veterans,

442
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:27,120
Speaker 2: but like that was a propaganda claim because no evidence

443
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,639
Speaker 2: was ever provided of this. We do know that the

444
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 2: French military scanned for SS veterans, particularly after nineteen forty seven,

445
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:38,240
Speaker 2: and since SS members had all had a tattoo, their

446
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 2: blood group was tattooed on them, it was easy to

447
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,679
Speaker 2: find and deny them. Thus, the first wave of Legion

448
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,399
Speaker 2: volunteers in Indo China would have included a lot of

449
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,240
Speaker 2: Germans who had served who had been Nazi soldiers, right,

450
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:51,920
Speaker 2: But very few of these guys would have been SS.

451
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 2: Much more of them are Wehrmacht Nazis. Right, As this

452
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,920
Speaker 2: historian from the asked Historian subreddit noted, the Legion was

453
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 2: recruiting about ten thousand many a year, many of them

454
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 2: certainly Germans, but by the nineteen fifties, with the average

455
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,359
Speaker 2: age of a legionnaire in the very early twenties, most

456
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 2: German recruits were young men simply trying to escape the

457
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 2: bleak situation in their home country, and the extent of

458
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 2: their involvement with the Nazi Party was their membership in

459
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:17,879
Speaker 2: the Hitler Youth as children. Now, I'm not doing this

460
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 2: to defend the reputation of the Foreign Legion, right, because

461
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 2: there's a lot that's messed up about that unit. This

462
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 2: is more important because of the specific way in which

463
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,199
Speaker 2: Liddy is wrong about like both the presence that like

464
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 2: all of the guys fighting in French Indo China in

465
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:36,440
Speaker 2: the late forties were SS veterans and they were really good.

466
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 2: You know, if they just stayed in there, they would

467
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 2: have won that war. The fact that he believes that

468
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 2: in states that says a lot, right because this recitation

469
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 2: that like the first Foreign Legion Units and Indo China

470
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 2: URLSS veterans and they were masters of counterinsurgency is based

471
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 2: upon one specific novel. I have actually traced back where

472
00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 2: Liddy gets this belief, and it's from a fiction book

473
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 2: called The Devil's Guard. Now, I actually have not seen

474
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,639
Speaker 2: this written anywhere else. I think I may be like

475
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 2: the first person to note this publicly, but it's extremely

476
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 2: obvious if you are familiar with the book The Devil's Guard.

477
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 2: And I'll go into why I am in a little bit.

478
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 2: But The Devil's Guard was a novel published by a

479
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 2: guy named George Elford in nineteen seventy one. This is

480
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 2: about nine years before Liddy writes his autobiography. The Devil's

481
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 2: Guard is based on the experience of a former wafeness

482
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 2: officer who it starts with him like he's fighting in

483
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 2: Eastern Europe, He's fighting in Russia, and then as the

484
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 2: war ends, he kind of like fights and sneaks his

485
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 2: way across Europe, eventually escaping the Allies and traveling to Indo, China,

486
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 2: where he fights in a nine hundred man unit of

487
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 2: all former SS men. And they're just the best encounter

488
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,199
Speaker 2: and they're running circles around the Viet Minh using all

489
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 2: these different they're combat skills, and they're so sneaky, and

490
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 2: they have all these different plans and stuff. And because

491
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,159
Speaker 2: of how ruthless they are, the VIETMN just you know,

492
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 2: can't do anything about them. Right now, Elford presents this

493
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 2: this is a non fiction novel. It's supposed to be,

494
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 2: but he claims that it's the result of an interview

495
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 2: with an anonymous, totally real Nazi. Historians now universally agree

496
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 2: that this is a lie. There were no there were

497
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 2: definitely SS men who served in the Foreign Legion. There

498
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,439
Speaker 2: was at no point a nine hundred man unit of

499
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 2: former SS veterans. Right, that just did not happen. Right,

500
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 2: that's from an Indiana Jones's sequel. That's from an Indiana

501
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 2: Jones book. Like, right, yeah, it's also like another one

502
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:33,399
Speaker 2: of the reasons we know this book is full of

503
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,439
Speaker 2: shit is that he has these loving descriptions this is

504
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 2: like a Soldier of Fortune. As books, there's loving descriptions

505
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,119
Speaker 2: of all the different guns they use and how, and

506
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 2: a bunch of the weapons he describes them using in

507
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 2: detail did not exist at the time or were not

508
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 2: in use by Legion troops at the time, right, They

509
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 2: simply were not present in that conflict. He just thought

510
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 2: they were cool guns, so he wanted to put them

511
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 2: in his novel. Meanwhile, and there's also you know, a

512
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,920
Speaker 2: bunch of different genius count insurgency tactics shown in the book.

513
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,879
Speaker 2: Like at one point, these SS guys kidnapped the family

514
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 2: members of a bunch of Vietmen fighters and like stick

515
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 2: them in vehicles that they're driving through a part of

516
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 2: the jungle, so that if the Vietmen attack a convoy,

517
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 2: they'll kill their family members, right, which is would be

518
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,679
Speaker 2: a war crime if they'd done it, But it's supposed

519
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:19,919
Speaker 2: to be like, you know, this is the kind of

520
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,160
Speaker 2: heart you can't you can't follow the law if you're

521
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 2: going to win an insurgency. That and a bunch of

522
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:27,959
Speaker 2: other tactics that are like that in the book are

523
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 2: all taken directly from a different book about British commandos

524
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,159
Speaker 2: fighting the Japanese in World War Two, like they're lifted

525
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 2: directly from this other book. Now, The Devil's Guard is

526
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 2: also it's one of the fact that it shows, the

527
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 2: whole premise of it is that the SS could have

528
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 2: won the war in Vietnam if we'd let them. It's

529
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 2: one of the most fascist books of military fiction and existence.

530
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 2: And again I have to I have to, I have

531
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 2: to really emphasize fiction. It's claims too that it was

532
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 2: real have spread myths about the incredible brilliance of the

533
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 2: SS as a counter insurgence for generations in two thousand

534
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 2: and six, and this is why I know about it.

535
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 2: In two thousand and six, online bookstore A Books noted

536
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 2: that it was one of the top ten novels sold

537
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 2: to US soldiers heading over to Iraq, and the only

538
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 2: piece of war fiction on that list. Because again, you've

539
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 2: got all these kids, they haven't actually been to combat yet,

540
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 2: they're trying to know what it's like. They want, like,

541
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 2: you know, advice, so they read this book about supposedly

542
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 2: the best counterinsurgency experts who ever existed, the fucking SS. Right,

543
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 2: it's just this very popular book of lies, and Lyddy

544
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 2: is kind of the first pop prominent guy who gets

545
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 2: taken in by it, right, which is why everything he

546
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 2: writes about Vietnam is very clearly just taken from this,

547
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 2: this book of fiction. Now, I think it's worth spending

548
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 2: a little bit more time discussing exactly why Liddy's conception

549
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 2: of the Wathen SS is a historical First off, the

550
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 2: SS were dogshit at counterinsurgency. There is no evidence that

551
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 2: has ever existed in history that these guys had any

552
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 2: competence at defeating insurgencies. They are involved in one insurgent

553
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 2: campaign in the history of the organization and they lose it, right, Like,

554
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 2: they don't win at all. It's like saying the US

555
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 2: is the best counterinsurgency army in the world. It's like, well,

556
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 2: what the fuck are you basing that on?

557
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 3: Right?

558
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 2: How cool the Navy Seals are in a movie you watched.

559
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 2: They've lost every war they've been involved in. I don't

560
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 2: understand why you think they're good at this. That's the

561
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 2: power of culture, baby. Now, the SS are repeatedly noted

562
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 2: by their colleagues and Wehrmacht officers for inciting violence from

563
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 2: captive populations due to their brutality. Right, the SS comes

564
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 2: into all these areas like Ukraine right in eastern Europe,

565
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 2: where because of sort of the relationship that area had

566
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 2: had to the Soviet Union before the Nazis come in,

567
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 2: there was a good possibility of like them taking over

568
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 2: and being relatively popular, and they just massacre so many

569
00:30:55,920 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 2: people pointlessly that they inspire like account like an insurgent

570
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 2: campaign against themselves because they're Nazis. They're terrible. That said,

571
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 2: even outside of like if you're kind of taking it

572
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 2: outside of their performance as a counterinsurgency force, there's this

573
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 2: idea that's still pretty common even among people who don't

574
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 2: like Nazis, that the SS were an elite combat unit

575
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 2: that performed well above like the levels shown by their

576
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 2: Verhrmacht counterparts. This is a lie as well. There were

577
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 2: certainly specific SS combat units that performed well, right, you

578
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 2: know that exists. You can find some some SS military

579
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 2: units that had very good battle records, right, But even

580
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 2: that does not mean what you might think it means.

581
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 2: Because SS divisions consistently received better gear and more of it.

582
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 2: They were much more mechanized than their regular army counterparts.

583
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 2: Because of the clout that they had with the Nazi system.

584
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 2: And SS divisions were also larger than normal Wehrmacht Army divisions.

585
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 2: A Waffen SS division has ad had a standard size

586
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 2: of about twenty thousand men, compared to sixteen thousand, five

587
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 2: hundred in the regular army. So if you're saying, well,

588
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 2: these WAFT and SS divisions performed better than these Fairmaut divisions,

589
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 2: it's like, well, they were an extra like thirty hundred guys,

590
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 2: and yeah, I mean it makes sense. Yeah, better take Well,

591
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 2: you know.

592
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 3: That's that's just the power of airy inness. You know,

593
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 3: that's it's like if you weren't, you wouldn't have all

594
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 3: those extra dudes.

595
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, how did they fight so much better? Well, there

596
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 2: were like three thousand extra dudes. Yeah, that'll that that

597
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 2: can matter sometimes that's so much extra area and blood.

598
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 2: Of course, it's also worth noting that even if you

599
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 2: take this into account, they don't actually have across the

600
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,719
Speaker 2: board a good like a better combat record than regular units.

601
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 2: It is worth noting SS men were picked both for

602
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 2: racial and ideological purity.

603
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 3: Right.

604
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 2: Part of what this meant is that regular enlisted soldiers

605
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 2: in the WAFT and SS were often healthier and in

606
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 2: better physical shape than regular army soldiers. But it also

607
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 2: means that their officers were pipped not on based on

608
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 2: their performance right, their competence, but based on their adherence

609
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,479
Speaker 2: to propaganda right, which meant that the most important thing

610
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 2: for an SS officer was not what do they know,

611
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 2: how well are they trained? How well have they performed?

612
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 2: But like, do they fit this sort of vision we

613
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 2: have for how they should look? And I found another

614
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 2: really good asque historians post on this matter, which quotes

615
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 2: a February nineteen forty three inspection of an SS division

616
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 2: by a Wehrmacht Army major quote. The commanders of this

617
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 2: wap of an SS division did not seem to realize

618
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 2: that brave and ideologically misguided young men were being selflessly

619
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 2: sacrificed through insane arrogance and a lofty disdain for sound training.

620
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 2: Belief in the Fuerer was more important to them than

621
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 2: professional ability. Shocked and sobered by the experience, I returned

622
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 2: to headquarters, where I was given an opportunity to report

623
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,239
Speaker 2: my impressions to the chief of the general staff. In

624
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 2: other words, officers in the Waffenss were often young men, likelyddy,

625
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 2: filled with very irrational beliefs about combat and their own

626
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 2: racial purity. The fact that they were brainwashed meant that

627
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 2: they were incapable of judging threats adequately.

628
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 3: Right.

629
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 2: They could not accurately judge the situations that they were

630
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 2: in and what was a necessary response, and as a result,

631
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 2: they got a lot of their men killed unnecessarily. Right.

632
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 2: In other words, these were all the guys who became

633
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 2: SS officers were the kind of men who might say,

634
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 2: disobey orders to crawl through mud with an open surgical wound,

635
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 2: and you don't want that guy making calls and combats.

636
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 2: It's really a two way street.

637
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 3: The love for that, like the SS would have loved

638
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 3: and yeah.

639
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 2: He would have immediately made it into the SS. Like

640
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 2: the Wehrmacht would have been like, no, get this guy

641
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 2: the fuck out of here. He's like, he's not rational,

642
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,240
Speaker 2: But the SSS would have been like, he's a rational

643
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,879
Speaker 2: make him an officer, right.

644
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,879
Speaker 3: He just yeah, right, you know, at least he knows

645
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 3: where he would have fit in. Yeah's a lot of people, don't,

646
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 3: you know, a lot of people don't. Yeah, this was

647
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 3: his ideal life situation and he just missed it.

648
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 2: Anyway. That was a long digression, but like I felt

649
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 2: it was necessary anyway. You know what else is a

650
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 2: fascist paramilitary organization? Mmmm, we'll find out the sponsors of

651
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 2: our podcast. Oh ah, we are back. And boy, I

652
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 2: really loved those ads for the Waffen SS. You know.

653
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 2: I hope, I hope a lot of a lot of

654
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:36,919
Speaker 2: our listeners join so that they can win the war

655
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 2: in French, Indo, China. You got it. It's like just

656
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 2: as if only there were a few more Nazis there,

657
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,360
Speaker 2: you know. Yeah, a couple more Nazis gonna put that

658
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 2: whole house in order, like like we always say, that's

659
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 2: all we need. Yeah. I do love the idea that,

660
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,799
Speaker 2: like the ss IS experience getting their asses handed to

661
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 2: them and the steps of Eastern Europe would have prepared

662
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:03,800
Speaker 2: them for a jungle war Inva. Yeah, they were really

663
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 2: ready for that. So by the nineteen sixties the mid sixties,

664
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 2: the anti war movement has started to pick up serious

665
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 2: steam and Lyddy is horrified by this. Young people, as

666
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 2: he writes, were quote eroding the national will and respect

667
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,719
Speaker 2: for authority. They were sinking into a nether world of

668
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 2: drug culture. Also, you want to hear G. Gordon Liddy's

669
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,880
Speaker 2: take on the civil rights movement Andrew, Oh, I'm sure

670
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:35,360
Speaker 2: it's very measured. Yes, solid, it's gonna be good. Valid

671
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,800
Speaker 2: demands by blacks for civil rights were often resisted violently

672
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 2: by whites, and in response, many blacks were adopting violence

673
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 2: as an offensive rather than defensive tactic. This is his

674
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,919
Speaker 2: you know, that's not all wrong, and that like, well,

675
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,400
Speaker 2: the fact that they were getting murdered led to like

676
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 2: embrace of more radical use. I still would call that

677
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 2: defensive violence, right.

678
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 3: I will admit that was much more measured that I

679
00:36:59,120 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 3: thought it was going to be.

680
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 2: He is his racism is never like straight up like

681
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 2: he's never going to be the guy who says, I think,

682
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 2: you know, we should go back to slavery, or I

683
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 2: don't think these people Like he's always going to be

684
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 2: the guy who his racism is more obvious and like

685
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,360
Speaker 2: the only ways he ever talks about black people right right,

686
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,800
Speaker 2: where like any time he deals with a violent criminal,

687
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:22,440
Speaker 2: he's going to let you know that it's a black man,

688
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 2: right like, like that's that's how that's that's where you

689
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:29,240
Speaker 2: kind of catch it here right now. Given his anger

690
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:31,720
Speaker 2: at the way things are going in the United States,

691
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 2: Lyddy has come to feel that his only option is

692
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 2: to get a job at the District Attorney's office in Poughkeepsie,

693
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 2: New York in nineteen sixty six. And I hate typing

694
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 2: the word Poughkeepsie, so I'm very unhappy that this is

695
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 2: such a part of the story. But he points out

696
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 2: that like part of what he moves there is it's

697
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:53,840
Speaker 2: his wife's hometown, right, So he goes there and he

698
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 2: becomes He describes himself as like an unorthodox but dedicated

699
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 2: law man, respected by the local police and liked by

700
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 2: the judges. And that is, to at least some extint true.

701
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 2: A New York Times reporter who visited in nineteen seventy

702
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 2: three and asked a round about Liddy got this description

703
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 2: of him. Lyddy led an unusual, even bizarre life. He

704
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 2: liked to drive around town in a jeep, He cared

705
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 2: a revolver at all times, even when prosecuting a case,

706
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:22,360
Speaker 2: and seemed to enjoy the kidding by the sheriff's deputies

707
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 2: who would outdraw him. He would spend his off hours

708
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:28,359
Speaker 2: cruising the city with policemen. He's like always hanging out

709
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:32,279
Speaker 2: with them, and shit, not for because it's his job,

710
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 2: just because he thinks it's fun. Oh my god, what

711
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 2: a freak.

712
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 3: I love the mental image of a fucking Poughkeepsie PD

713
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 3: and G.

714
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:47,840
Speaker 2: Gordon Liddy drawing their guns at each other. Yeah, yeah, wonderrect.

715
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 2: I also loved that little mention that like, oh yeah,

716
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 2: he wasn't very good at it, right, like he always lost,

717
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 2: you know.

718
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I'm genuinely surprised he didn't accidentally shoot someone

719
00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:57,919
Speaker 3: in that moment.

720
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't. One hundred percent. No he didn't. You know,

721
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:07,240
Speaker 2: that's true. That's the Yeah. So that article also provides

722
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 2: us with an amusing summary of some of Liddy's greatest

723
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:14,279
Speaker 2: hits in the courtroom. Lyddy's courtroom activities as prosecutor were

724
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 2: occasionally a bit unsettling. On one occasion, he waved a

725
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 2: knife under the noses of startled jurors, later overturned on

726
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:23,239
Speaker 2: the basis of that stunt and opposing lawyer procalled. And

727
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 2: another time he smashed a piece of wood over the

728
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 2: jury rail while prosecuting an assault case involving the use

729
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 2: of the plank. Lyddy paid for the repair to the

730
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:34,480
Speaker 2: jury rail. God, I love that. Yeah, he loses a

731
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 2: case because he pulls a knife on the jury. What

732
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:42,280
Speaker 2: a clown. So funny, It's so funny.

733
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, here's here's the thing I was gonna say about him,

734
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 3: that is, I realized I'm just trying to parse the difference,

735
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:52,800
Speaker 3: which is he has humongous like middle school knife catalog

736
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:53,840
Speaker 3: guy energy.

737
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 2: This guy, this guy like g Gordon Liddy, never was

738
00:39:57,600 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 2: seen without a Budka catalog.

739
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 3: Right, absolutely, But I will just throw this out there,

740
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 3: at least of the people I am friendly with, you

741
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 3: might be the person who's closest in my sphere to

742
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,880
Speaker 3: knife catalog and middle school guy. So that's why I

743
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 3: was trying to parse the difference between you and recordedly.

744
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 3: And I think it might just be not being a

745
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 3: huge dork.

746
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 2: But you know what I'm saying, I'm a huge dork

747
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,360
Speaker 2: and I own way way more knives than are strictly

748
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 2: necessary for any of my purposes. I think one of

749
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 2: the big differences is that I've never lost a court

750
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 2: case because I pulled a knife on the Jerry. Yeah, Like,

751
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 2: my knives are more like, you know, used for processing

752
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 2: animals and stuff, like, I mean roadkill with my knives. Yeah.

753
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 2: Well yeah, it's like, I guess it's competence or something.

754
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 2: I can't mild competence, right, That's all it takes. Yeah,

755
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 2: that's the difference, I guess and not being a Nazi.

756
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 2: Not being a Nazi, yeah, not using them to threaten

757
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 2: people for no good reason. There's a lot of a

758
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 2: lot of things, right, that you can do to not

759
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,799
Speaker 2: be like G. Gordon Liddy. You know, I also have

760
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 2: read books about the SS that are not like strictly

761
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:13,399
Speaker 2: historically accurate, largely because I needed to understand aspects of

762
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:15,839
Speaker 2: like the growth of the fascist movement among you as

763
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 2: soldiers in the early parts of the global War on terror. Right. So,

764
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,319
Speaker 2: one of the most influent infamous stories about G. Gordon

765
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 2: Liddy is that during one of his court cases, he

766
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 2: drew and fired his revolver in court in order to

767
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:35,359
Speaker 2: like make a point. This you'll hear this summarized, like, Yeah,

768
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 2: he fired a loaded handgun in a courtroom in order

769
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:43,359
Speaker 2: to like make an art, like emphasize an argument the

770
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 2: court case. And it didn't quite go down that way, right.

771
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:48,560
Speaker 2: So the court case that he's involved in, he's prosecuting

772
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 2: a dude whose defense claimed that the revolver he'd been

773
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 2: accused of using by the police was inoperable. So he

774
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:56,880
Speaker 2: couldn't have fired it because it didn't work. So Lyddy

775
00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 2: wanted to prove that it did work, and in order

776
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 2: to do that, he loaded it with blanks, and he

777
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 2: fired it during the climax of his argument.

778
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:04,359
Speaker 1: This.

779
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 2: You know, the judge was startled by this, But like,

780
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 2: it doesn't seem to have been an ineffective tactic, right,

781
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:11,719
Speaker 2: Like it's a little showmanship, but he's not actually just

782
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 2: like firing a normal right right, Like he's shooting a blank.

783
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:18,280
Speaker 2: It is kind of it is technically relevant to the case,

784
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 2: So there you go. I think if he was a

785
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 2: different guy who had not gotten in trouble for committing

786
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,839
Speaker 2: a series of crimes, this would be like, oh yeah,

787
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:29,919
Speaker 2: look at it, he's like this, you know, this would

788
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 2: be kind of celebrated, right, I do think this is

789
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:33,319
Speaker 2: the kind of thing that would be celebrated if he

790
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:34,720
Speaker 2: was a normal dude, right.

791
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, just don't be a freak and you can

792
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 3: get to do your idiosyncratic things.

793
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 2: Yeah we all like a weirdo, right, Yeah, you just

794
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 2: went too far to Gordon Lyddy. In general, he was

795
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 2: seen as an eccentric but decent lawyer, one of the

796
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:54,880
Speaker 2: defense lawyers who worked opposite of Litty told The Times

797
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 2: later he was fun in court. You could ridicule him

798
00:42:58,080 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 2: in front of the jury, and he never carried a

799
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 2: grin outside the courtroom. He also worked hard, prepared his

800
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 2: case as well, and presented them with a lot of ego.

801
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 2: He just didn't seem to have the anxieties, fear, insecurities

802
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:11,319
Speaker 2: and uncertainties that the rest of us have. It was

803
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 2: hard to visualize him sweating.

804
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 3: That's such an interesting thing I up to this point,

805
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:23,240
Speaker 3: it's actually really hard to not visualize him in anything

806
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 3: but flop sweat constantly.

807
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, he seems to I think you know. There's again,

808
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 2: there's two TV shows that recently came out, both of

809
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:35,840
Speaker 2: which have g Gordon Lyddie as a character. There's the

810
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:37,880
Speaker 2: one that has one of the one show that starred

811
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 2: Justin Throw playing him, and then I get the actor

812
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 2: for the other show that features him. But like one

813
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 2: of them shows him as flipping out and screaming and

814
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:49,439
Speaker 2: like physically threatening people in a kind of unhinged way

815
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 2: on a number of occasions. And one of them shows

816
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:56,360
Speaker 2: him as like this this very like emotionally cool, calm,

817
00:43:56,920 --> 00:44:00,799
Speaker 2: like idiot maniac, right, who is like like constantly is

818
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 2: always in this sort of and I think that that's

819
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 2: the justin throw version. I think that's closer to how

820
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:09,319
Speaker 2: Liddy actually behaved. Right. I do think he he is

821
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 2: very good at maintaining this like pool outside look right

822
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 2: to other people generally speaking, even though he is it

823
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 2: is very obvious a lot of the time that he's

824
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 2: in over his head and incompetent, like he's always he

825
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 2: always has this sense of confidence about him. Right. The

826
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 2: most noteworthy moment of Lyddy's time and how Kipsie was

827
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 2: his run in with doctor Timothy Leary during a raid.

828
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:34,799
Speaker 2: And these two guys are really tied together. There's they

829
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 2: will they will wind up touring the country doing a

830
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:42,720
Speaker 2: floor show together. Yeah, cam Lee here, And like Timothy

831
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 2: Leary is kind of a left wing version of g

832
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:47,879
Speaker 2: Gordon Liddy. A lot of what Leary says and gets

833
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:51,919
Speaker 2: famous for is bullshit. He is a significant like Fabuloust, right,

834
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 2: he is a little bit of a con man, you know,

835
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 2: but he's also at the core of him he believes

836
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,760
Speaker 2: some things very genuine as an and is extremely committed

837
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:04,960
Speaker 2: to those things. And obviously those are better because he's

838
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 2: not a Nazi, right, so, but he is you do

839
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:10,400
Speaker 2: kind of get an element of like Leary's fundamental, like

840
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:13,880
Speaker 2: the fact that he's willing to tour around with Leary,

841
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:17,160
Speaker 2: this unrepentant fascist after both of them have gotten out

842
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:19,879
Speaker 2: of prison, says a lot about tim Leary. But their

843
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 2: first run in is so there's this raid in nineteen

844
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 2: sixty six on tim Leary's the place that he's living

845
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 2: at the time that a lot of people consider like

846
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 2: the inciting incident of the acid era. Right, Like this

847
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:35,080
Speaker 2: is the if you're making a movie, right, if you

848
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:38,280
Speaker 2: decided to do a mini series about like the birth

849
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:41,640
Speaker 2: of the psychedelic drug movement of acid of like a

850
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 2: lot of the things we consider core to like the

851
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 2: hippie movement, you started at this raid in nineteen sixty six,

852
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:50,719
Speaker 2: right tim Leary. And the background of this is that

853
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:52,719
Speaker 2: like Tim Leary and a bunch of he was, you know,

854
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 2: a professor at I think it was Harvard. Yeah, maybe

855
00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:58,880
Speaker 2: I'm wrong about I think it was Harvard, and he

856
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 2: like becomes a way of LSD. He starts taking it,

857
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 2: he starts doing studies with it. This is during a

858
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 2: period where it's legal, right, it gets illegal eventually, which

859
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 2: is why some other stuff happens. But after he gets

860
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 2: kind of like pushed out at his college and is

861
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 2: no longer working there, he and a bunch of his

862
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:18,840
Speaker 2: associates move into a mansion in Millbrook, New York. And

863
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:21,760
Speaker 2: this mansion has bought. There's this like rich kid stockbroker

864
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 2: who like continues to make a lot of money doing stockshit,

865
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 2: Like he's never interested in anything but getting better at

866
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 2: being a stockbroker. But he loves acid, right, so he's like, yeah,

867
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:34,279
Speaker 2: you can. I bought this mansion. You can all move

868
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 2: in here and do your drug experiments in my mansion.

869
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:40,799
Speaker 2: Remember when the rich used to be cool? This guy

870
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 2: does sound as cool as a stockbroker could be. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

871
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 2: It's interesting. Leary's always kind of like baffled at the

872
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:51,239
Speaker 2: fact that, like this guy is so on board with

873
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 2: the movement but also very comfortable and happy being like

874
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:59,880
Speaker 2: absolutely a part of the establishment. Like yeah, being this

875
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:04,880
Speaker 2: like soulless business guy. So this the leer in between

876
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:07,840
Speaker 2: thirty and sixty at any given point. Hippie dropout types

877
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 2: live in this mansion and do hella drugs, right, mostly

878
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:13,360
Speaker 2: acid and wheat. From what we can tell, I assume

879
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 2: there's other stuff that gets thrown into the mix. So

880
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:19,239
Speaker 2: this is all well and good, except for Millbrook is

881
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:21,400
Speaker 2: kind of a small town. I think it's a little

882
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 2: more affluent than your average small town. You know. It's

883
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:26,960
Speaker 2: in upstate New York. And the citizens of Millbrook are like,

884
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 2: once they realize this famous drug wizard is living in

885
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:32,799
Speaker 2: their town, they're like, well, we're not really thrilled about this.

886
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 2: We don't want Tim Leary living here with a bunch

887
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 2: of hippies, you know. And he's he is kind of

888
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:41,360
Speaker 2: he is by this point already gotten this reputation is

889
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:44,440
Speaker 2: like the devil to a lot of conservatives, right, he

890
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:47,720
Speaker 2: is the absolute worst person on earth. He's corrupting the youth.

891
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 2: And so because he's got this, you know, reputation of

892
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 2: spreading the gospel of acid, action is demanded by the

893
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 2: citizens of Millbrook, And since g. Gordon Lyddiy is at

894
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 2: this point a well known anti drug crusader, he winds

895
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 2: up helping to organize the raid on Millbrook.

896
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:04,960
Speaker 3: Right.

897
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 2: He's there during it, theoretically in order to ensure that

898
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 2: proper legal procedure is followed, right, because he works in

899
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:13,719
Speaker 2: the DA's office. So the most notable part of this

900
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:16,880
Speaker 2: story is that when the police bust into the mansion

901
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:20,440
Speaker 2: late at night after Leary and his like cohorts have

902
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:23,400
Speaker 2: gone to bed, Leary is like wearing a shirt and nothing.

903
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:25,840
Speaker 2: He's shirt cocking it right, like his disk just swinging

904
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 2: in the breeze. And well, all there's this whole argument

905
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:31,360
Speaker 2: over like is this raid legal? What are they doing?

906
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 2: Like where you know? Well, while this is all going on,

907
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:35,839
Speaker 2: and it seems to go on for quite some time,

908
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:38,840
Speaker 2: Leary repeated that, like the cops are constantly like, hey man,

909
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:41,600
Speaker 2: would you put on some pants? Hey man? Like and Leary,

910
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:43,520
Speaker 2: this is one thing I will give him. I love

911
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 2: this about him. He's like absolutely not, Like you are

912
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:48,359
Speaker 2: in my home. I will have my dick out if

913
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 2: I want to, just repeatedly refuses to not have his

914
00:48:55,040 --> 00:49:00,440
Speaker 2: wig hanging out, which is honorable, I think. Yeah. It's

915
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:04,120
Speaker 2: also worth noting that Lyddy, who volunteers, he's not asked,

916
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:06,359
Speaker 2: like the only thing he's needed therefore is to make

917
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 2: sure that like legal procedure, But he volunteers to help

918
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:13,160
Speaker 2: the cops survey the hippies beforehand for no reason and

919
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:16,160
Speaker 2: nearly blows the whole op as a result of this,

920
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 2: because he's bad at everything. Quote, and this is from

921
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:23,080
Speaker 2: the New York Times. It seems that Lyddy and some

922
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 2: policemen complete with binoculars and walkie talkie, were staked out

923
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:28,359
Speaker 2: in the bushes of the estate when a young woman

924
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:31,360
Speaker 2: stepped completely nude from one of the tints on the grounds.

925
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:33,600
Speaker 2: A lot of funny things were going on at that place,

926
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 2: a deputy explained. Anyway, they became so preoccupied with this

927
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:39,279
Speaker 2: girl that they gave their height out away and blew

928
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:44,080
Speaker 2: the whole bit. They nearly exposed the whole operation because

929
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:46,959
Speaker 2: like he and these cops can't stop oggling this naked woman.

930
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 3: It was like Porkys for Nazis. It's all Nazis, I know,

931
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 3: but come on.

932
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what else is like Porky's the sponsors

933
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:01,920
Speaker 2: of this podcast. We are in fact sponsored by the

934
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:06,279
Speaker 2: movie Porky's. Yeah, the bar, the establishment, the establishment, all

935
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 2: of those things. If it's called Porky's, we are legally

936
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:26,040
Speaker 2: responsible for it. Uh, we are b a Q. That's

937
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 2: how you spill back, that's anyway. So Lyddy spends three years,

938
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:33,760
Speaker 2: i think, working for the DA's office in Poughkeepsie before

939
00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:36,280
Speaker 2: he decides that it's time to take a more active

940
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:38,960
Speaker 2: role trying to wrench the ship of state away from

941
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 2: degeneracy and leftism. And the way he's going to do

942
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:44,680
Speaker 2: this is by running for Congress. That's how he describes it, right,

943
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 2: that after a couple of years, he's like, I'm just

944
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 2: not doing enough to fight against this, So I've got

945
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 2: to get into politics in order to like, really really,

946
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:55,560
Speaker 2: you know, make a difference here. That's how he describes it.

947
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 2: The Times has a different story. They note that late

948
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:02,800
Speaker 2: in his run for the DA's office, a local resident

949
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:06,799
Speaker 2: had complained about Liddy's actions in a narcotics case, and

950
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:09,920
Speaker 2: that like that wound up becoming an official complaint to

951
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 2: the State Commission of Investigation. The case gets dropped for

952
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:16,720
Speaker 2: lack of evidence, but this quote from that lawyer, mister Tepper,

953
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 2: who he had worked against Liddy, gives us an idea

954
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 2: of how he kind of might have gotten forced out,

955
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 2: Like he may have run for office because it was

956
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:26,680
Speaker 2: he was almost known to him, there's not going to

957
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:29,960
Speaker 2: be a space for you here forever. Quite right, he

958
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 2: was always expecting the big narcotics bust, mister Tepper said.

959
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 2: Gordon kept pushing pushing all the time. He probably bent

960
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:37,680
Speaker 2: the rules a bit now and then to collect evidence,

961
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:41,520
Speaker 2: but I can't recall anything specific now. His autobiography makes

962
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 2: no mention of this, but we do know there were

963
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:46,480
Speaker 2: complaints against him, and we do you get the feeling that, like, yeah,

964
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:49,880
Speaker 2: maybe he was kind of pushed out to an extent

965
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 2: here at least there was some like he had the feeling,

966
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:55,480
Speaker 2: I'm not going to always have a role here, right

967
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:59,000
Speaker 2: right right. So Lyddy now thirty eight, decides he's going

968
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:01,959
Speaker 2: to challenge the leading Republican candidate in New York's twenty

969
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:06,240
Speaker 2: eighth congressional district, the relative of one of our former guests,

970
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:11,320
Speaker 2: Maggie Mayfish, Hamilton Fish Junior. So these guys are related

971
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:15,239
Speaker 2: to that serial killer and the political dynasty, the Fishes. Yeah,

972
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:19,440
Speaker 2: so that's cool anyway. Hamilton Fish Junior is kind of

973
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:23,239
Speaker 2: like an establishment Republican, right He's He's probably someone who

974
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:25,840
Speaker 2: would like was closer to the Dims than like a

975
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 2: dude like g. Gordon Liddy. And so Lyddy is kind

976
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:32,960
Speaker 2: of running against him on a very extreme right wing platform.

977
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:37,440
Speaker 2: His campaign had three planks, taxes which were too high, crime,

978
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:42,080
Speaker 2: and Vietnam right on crime, Lyddy presaged much modern right

979
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:44,600
Speaker 2: wing discourse when he said, God help us if the

980
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:49,239
Speaker 2: thin blue line of protection crumbles. He's a thin blue

981
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 2: line guyon it is funny, like all of the thin

982
00:52:56,719 --> 00:53:02,239
Speaker 2: blue lionist guys wind up in prison for committed crimes. Yeah,

983
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:08,160
Speaker 2: do love how consistent that is. Meanwhile, on Vietnam, he

984
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:10,879
Speaker 2: was clear that he supported US commitment to the war

985
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 2: effort quote, but not our conduct of the war. And

986
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:16,640
Speaker 2: whenever you hear that, what that means is he thought

987
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 2: that we hadn't committed quite enough war crimes. Right, if

988
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:22,120
Speaker 2: we'd massacred another couple of million people, we would have

989
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:24,880
Speaker 2: won it. Yeah, Like that's how I was taking. We

990
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 2: needed more SS guys out in the jungle. Uh, so

991
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 2: give it. Yeah, Yeah, it's very funny. He would have liked.

992
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:37,759
Speaker 2: If he had gotten any chance to weigh in, he

993
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:40,240
Speaker 2: would have pulled out that fiction book about the SS

994
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:44,080
Speaker 2: and slammed it on the table. So Lyddy lost badly

995
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:47,279
Speaker 2: and eventually was forced to drop out and Backfish in

996
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:49,840
Speaker 2: order to have a future in the Republican Party. His

997
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:52,600
Speaker 2: supporters called him a sellout, but he got a job

998
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:56,440
Speaker 2: running the Dutchess County Nixon campaign. One law you're interviewed

999
00:53:56,440 --> 00:54:00,680
Speaker 2: by The Times called it a deal. Right, So basically, look, man,

1000
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:04,239
Speaker 2: stop making trouble for this guy who is Yeah, he's

1001
00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:06,520
Speaker 2: not far right like you, but you know he can

1002
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:09,759
Speaker 2: win unlike you because you're a maniac. And if you,

1003
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:13,120
Speaker 2: if you play ball, you'll get a job running the

1004
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:16,680
Speaker 2: Nixon campaign in this other county. And he says, yes,

1005
00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:19,000
Speaker 2: you know, he is always a team player, right. That

1006
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:21,120
Speaker 2: is you got to give Liddy. He's gonna get you

1007
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:24,040
Speaker 2: in trouble because he's a maniac. But like he will

1008
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 2: do what he thinks is best for the party, even

1009
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:29,239
Speaker 2: if it's not what's best for him. Like that's kind

1010
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:32,560
Speaker 2: of what he's famous for. So he's a toady. He's

1011
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:36,480
Speaker 2: an ambitions Yeah, he is a hinchman. Right, he's got

1012
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:41,000
Speaker 2: a hinch ye. So Lyddy is an adequate performer in

1013
00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:44,319
Speaker 2: this role. Nixon was more impressed by his loyalty and

1014
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:46,680
Speaker 2: his willingness to take a personal hit to his pride

1015
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:49,359
Speaker 2: for the team than anything else. Right, this is the thing,

1016
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:54,399
Speaker 2: Dick Nixon is a guy who respects loyalty to him, right,

1017
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:56,920
Speaker 2: and that's what he sees from Lyddy and so you know,

1018
00:54:57,320 --> 00:54:59,400
Speaker 2: it becomes it kind of like gets through the grape vine,

1019
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:01,759
Speaker 2: like all right, he's somebody that we can trust in

1020
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 2: the Nixon White House. And as a reward, when Dick

1021
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:08,320
Speaker 2: Nixon wins office, Ge Gordon Lyddy is given a position

1022
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:12,520
Speaker 2: as Special Assistant for Organized Crime to the Secretary of Treasury, right,

1023
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:15,120
Speaker 2: which is this is kind of a dream gig for him.

1024
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 2: He loves the idea of being like a drug warrior,

1025
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:20,880
Speaker 2: of like being you know, fighting the gangsters and stuff.

1026
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:23,399
Speaker 2: And he, you know, he sees this and I think

1027
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:25,600
Speaker 2: it probably was there was this idea, well maybe this

1028
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:27,480
Speaker 2: guy's got a future. Maybe one day this guy could

1029
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:29,520
Speaker 2: even have a cabinet position. So let's try him out,

1030
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:31,160
Speaker 2: you know, at a lower level, see how he works.

1031
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:34,839
Speaker 2: Lyddy instantly proves himself to be the kind of guy

1032
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:38,359
Speaker 2: that cannot be trusted with power he developed. He gets

1033
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 2: in a lot of trouble very quickly at the Department

1034
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:44,200
Speaker 2: of Treasury because he keeps trying to set policy right

1035
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:46,880
Speaker 2: on his own, the sort of apropos without any backing,

1036
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:49,440
Speaker 2: like saying, this is our stance on guns. We won't

1037
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 2: pursue these kind of gun control laws. He will give

1038
00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:55,520
Speaker 2: like all these speeches at like gun control lobby events

1039
00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:57,799
Speaker 2: saying that Department of Treasury will never do this, and

1040
00:55:57,800 --> 00:55:59,960
Speaker 2: then his boss will be like, the fuck are you talking?

1041
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:04,200
Speaker 2: Like you never cleared this with anybody, Like you're not

1042
00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 2: supposed to be saying these things. He was also bad

1043
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:12,279
Speaker 2: at being a drug warrior right now. Because he had

1044
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:15,279
Speaker 2: experience as an FBI agent, he was asked to help

1045
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:18,880
Speaker 2: organize an effort to reduce drug smuggling across the Mexican border,

1046
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:22,680
Speaker 2: Operation Intercept. The goal of this plan was to punish

1047
00:56:22,719 --> 00:56:25,800
Speaker 2: the Mexican government for refusing to allow US air power

1048
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:29,319
Speaker 2: into their country to spread poison on crops. The response,

1049
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:33,600
Speaker 2: Operation Intercept is to punish Mexico by shutting down the

1050
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:36,200
Speaker 2: border with legal gridlock. The idea is you have the

1051
00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:39,160
Speaker 2: police question and search every single person who comes in

1052
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:43,520
Speaker 2: from Mexico, right, which is includes Americans and absolutely this

1053
00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:45,480
Speaker 2: is a busy reason. There's a lot of region, there's

1054
00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:47,239
Speaker 2: a lot of business that comes through in here, there's

1055
00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:50,200
Speaker 2: a lot of tourism. It just shatters the way the

1056
00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:54,719
Speaker 2: region functions, right. It's a calamity for all of these

1057
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:57,320
Speaker 2: The US side of the border too. Right. It fucks

1058
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:00,040
Speaker 2: up the local economy, It does a lot of damage,

1059
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:04,160
Speaker 2: and it's there's no like, nothing but chaos. As the result,

1060
00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:08,279
Speaker 2: The New York Times summarizes border communities were disrupted by

1061
00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:11,560
Speaker 2: lengthy searches. Traffic across the frontier was halted for hours,

1062
00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:15,200
Speaker 2: tourism suffered. Liddy sought to justify the confusion with patriotic

1063
00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:17,800
Speaker 2: speeches in the local communities. He was dismissed as a

1064
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:22,960
Speaker 2: Treasury man in nineteen seventy one. Now, for his part,

1065
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:26,080
Speaker 2: Liddy describes Intercept as having been a success. Right. The

1066
00:57:26,080 --> 00:57:28,080
Speaker 2: people who thought it was a failure just didn't understand

1067
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:30,880
Speaker 2: the goal, which was to fuck up life for everyone

1068
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:33,840
Speaker 2: on the border. Right. His idea was like, well, look, yeah,

1069
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:36,040
Speaker 2: it fucked up everything for Americans, but it fucked them

1070
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:38,920
Speaker 2: up worse for Mexicans, and they the Mexican government could

1071
00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:40,480
Speaker 2: handle the disruption less well.

1072
00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:40,760
Speaker 3: Right.

1073
00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:44,440
Speaker 2: And this is this is his defense of Operation Recept.

1074
00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:48,840
Speaker 2: It was an exercise in international extortion, peer simple and effective,

1075
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:53,720
Speaker 2: designed to bend Mexico to our will. Now, Lyddy claims

1076
00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:55,920
Speaker 2: this is a big win and that he was only

1077
00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:59,360
Speaker 2: fired right after by the Treasury Department because he made

1078
00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:03,040
Speaker 2: too many good recommendations to his boss. Yeah, ross a days,

1079
00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:07,320
Speaker 2: which is like, it's very funny because so number one

1080
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:10,160
Speaker 2: Operation Intercept. I guess you can debate, you know, like

1081
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:15,120
Speaker 2: there's there's there's definitely like an argument to be made

1082
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:18,440
Speaker 2: that like, well, yeah, you can some of their goals

1083
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:21,640
Speaker 2: were achieved by creating this much chaos. But like the

1084
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:24,440
Speaker 2: Treasury Department considers it kind of a disaster at the

1085
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:26,600
Speaker 2: time because of all of the complaints that it generates,

1086
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:28,960
Speaker 2: because of how much it pisses people off. So I

1087
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:31,480
Speaker 2: don't think it was considered that by anyone but Lyddy.

1088
00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:31,959
Speaker 3: Really.

1089
00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:36,120
Speaker 2: The other thing is that, like he he cites in

1090
00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:38,480
Speaker 2: his book, you know, his boss being jealous of him

1091
00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:41,280
Speaker 2: because every time they would argue, Lyddy was right right,

1092
00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:42,959
Speaker 2: you know, he was just he made too many good

1093
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:45,960
Speaker 2: calls and it was really pissing off his boss embarrassed him.

1094
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:48,400
Speaker 2: One of the good decisions we'll go into one of these.

1095
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:50,880
Speaker 2: One of the good decisions that Liddy cites as like

1096
00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:54,280
Speaker 2: the thing that drove his boss crazy was the Customs

1097
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:57,200
Speaker 2: Division Department is like trying to figure out how to

1098
00:58:57,280 --> 00:58:59,400
Speaker 2: arm air marshals at this point because there's a lot

1099
00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:01,600
Speaker 2: we talked about in are like episodes on the Golden

1100
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:04,160
Speaker 2: Age of terrorism, a lot of planes getting hijacked at

1101
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:06,680
Speaker 2: this period, late sixties or early seventies. This is the

1102
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:10,560
Speaker 2: golden age of hijacking a plane to nothing, to hijack

1103
00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:14,720
Speaker 2: a commercial aircraft in this period, And so we're starting

1104
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:16,960
Speaker 2: to put air marshals on planes, and we're you know,

1105
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:21,040
Speaker 2: it's a when you're considering what firearm to give a

1106
00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:24,520
Speaker 2: man who would be expected to shoot it in a plane,

1107
00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:28,120
Speaker 2: that's a complicated thing to decide. That's a lot more

1108
00:59:28,520 --> 00:59:30,960
Speaker 2: a lot more difficult than just deciding, like what's the

1109
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:33,720
Speaker 2: best gun to give a cop right where it's like, yeah, no,

1110
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:36,280
Speaker 2: there's a lot of like a lot of very complex

1111
00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:41,400
Speaker 2: engineering questions about like and today, by the way, our

1112
00:59:41,520 --> 00:59:44,840
Speaker 2: air marshals are armed with firearms that have very specific

1113
00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:47,200
Speaker 2: kinds of bullets that are made to function in a

1114
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:51,480
Speaker 2: certain way on planes to minimize dangers of depressurization, over penetration,

1115
00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:54,040
Speaker 2: all that kind of stuff. So they're trying to decide

1116
00:59:54,040 --> 00:59:56,720
Speaker 2: what's the best thing weapon to arm these guys with,

1117
00:59:57,040 --> 00:59:59,040
Speaker 2: and Lyddy is like, you should give them three fifty

1118
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:01,720
Speaker 2: seven magnum fire arms loaded with hollow point. Now he

1119
01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:04,280
Speaker 2: picks there's not actually a good reason why it should

1120
01:00:04,360 --> 01:00:06,360
Speaker 2: be a three fifty seven over like a nine millimeter.

1121
01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:09,200
Speaker 2: Lyddy just loves revolvers, and he loves the three fifty

1122
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:11,880
Speaker 2: seven cartridge because it's the quote unquote most powerful gun

1123
01:00:11,920 --> 01:00:13,680
Speaker 2: in the world. It's the only reason he picks the

1124
01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:17,360
Speaker 2: three fifty seven. Now, he is right that hollow points

1125
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:19,440
Speaker 2: are a better choice than full metal jacket, and the

1126
01:00:19,480 --> 01:00:21,520
Speaker 2: reason for this is that hollow points are less likely

1127
01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:23,880
Speaker 2: to overpenetrate. Right, The point purpose of a hollow point

1128
01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:26,880
Speaker 2: is that it expands more when it hits meat. Right,

1129
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:29,760
Speaker 2: It expands when it hits meat, and that transfers more

1130
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:32,800
Speaker 2: force from the bullet into the body of whoever you've hit,

1131
01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:35,080
Speaker 2: so it's less likely to go through them and then

1132
01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:37,840
Speaker 2: through something critical on the plane. Right, That is accurate.

1133
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:40,720
Speaker 2: Lyddy claims that there's like this big debate, you know,

1134
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:43,920
Speaker 2: over it, and nobody believes him all by that just

1135
01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:47,440
Speaker 2: because it's actually weirdly it's if you study the history

1136
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:50,160
Speaker 2: of how people learned about how bullets function, it takes

1137
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:53,280
Speaker 2: a weirdly long time to figure out anything about bullets.

1138
01:00:54,080 --> 01:00:56,520
Speaker 2: So I'll give him. That may have been the case.

1139
01:00:56,560 --> 01:00:59,360
Speaker 2: But the evidence that he cites to make this case,

1140
01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:02,600
Speaker 2: if he was actually making this argument, you know, as

1141
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:05,160
Speaker 2: opposed to everyone being like obviously, hollow points are less

1142
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:08,160
Speaker 2: likely to over pendray if he is not lying about that,

1143
01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:10,760
Speaker 2: the evidence that he cites in his book is how

1144
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:13,640
Speaker 2: he made the case about hollow points being of interput.

1145
01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:16,120
Speaker 2: It's nuts, it's and I'll give you one. I'll give

1146
01:01:16,120 --> 01:01:18,800
Speaker 2: you one quote like guess as to how it's nuts.

1147
01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:22,720
Speaker 2: Andrew to the fire, got on a plane. No, no, no,

1148
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:27,120
Speaker 2: but he brings up the Nazis again, comes into it again.

1149
01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:30,720
Speaker 2: That's his other move. His other move. He either shot

1150
01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:34,800
Speaker 2: a gun or brought up the SS right quote. Here's

1151
01:01:34,880 --> 01:01:38,040
Speaker 2: Lyddy making the case for why air marshals should carry

1152
01:01:38,240 --> 01:01:43,000
Speaker 2: hollow points. I cited Nazi experiments using live Jews that

1153
01:01:43,120 --> 01:01:46,720
Speaker 2: determined one seven point nine millimeter balls solid bullet from

1154
01:01:46,720 --> 01:01:49,200
Speaker 2: a Mauser rifle could pass through in gillup to sixteen

1155
01:01:49,280 --> 01:01:53,240
Speaker 2: humans lined up in a row and solid point round

1156
01:01:53,280 --> 01:01:56,840
Speaker 2: through the fuselage wouldn't result in compressive decompression of the aircraft.

1157
01:01:57,000 --> 01:02:01,600
Speaker 2: It might well sever a vital control cable. Now that's

1158
01:02:01,720 --> 01:02:06,240
Speaker 2: fucking nuts number one, completely irrelevant, right he is We

1159
01:02:06,280 --> 01:02:09,320
Speaker 2: are talking about a handgun and he is talking about

1160
01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:12,960
Speaker 2: the penetration of a write right, right, Totally different different

1161
01:02:13,080 --> 01:02:16,440
Speaker 2: planets in every way ballistically a rifle down versus a

1162
01:02:16,440 --> 01:02:19,120
Speaker 2: handgun round. It is not relevant in any way to

1163
01:02:19,160 --> 01:02:22,360
Speaker 2: be like, you know, when the Nazis shot lined up

1164
01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:24,840
Speaker 2: Jews in the end, they were able to kill sixteen

1165
01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:27,080
Speaker 2: people with a single that has nothing to do with

1166
01:02:27,120 --> 01:02:30,760
Speaker 2: the question. G Gordon Lyddy, that's a crazy thing to

1167
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:31,600
Speaker 2: bring up here.

1168
01:02:31,960 --> 01:02:36,800
Speaker 3: You gotta stop, you know, lists like you're bringing it

1169
01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:41,600
Speaker 3: up so many times. It's really Yeah, did have any

1170
01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:43,000
Speaker 3: other sources?

1171
01:02:43,280 --> 01:02:45,800
Speaker 2: That is not that does not make any point that's

1172
01:02:45,840 --> 01:02:49,280
Speaker 2: relevant to what you're trying to argue here. Yeah, you

1173
01:02:49,440 --> 01:02:52,200
Speaker 2: just wanted to talk about the SS killing Jewish people.

1174
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:54,240
Speaker 2: That's literally the only reason you said this.

1175
01:02:54,680 --> 01:02:58,600
Speaker 3: You just imagine like Nickxon being like, anyone have any

1176
01:02:58,600 --> 01:03:02,200
Speaker 3: thoughts his hand is like, not Nazi thoughts.

1177
01:03:03,800 --> 01:03:10,880
Speaker 2: Thoughts that do not involve the SS. Fucking yeah, just

1178
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:16,240
Speaker 2: just a maniac. So Lyddy claims his recommendation is adopted,

1179
01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:20,320
Speaker 2: and even in his recitation of events, the fact that

1180
01:03:20,400 --> 01:03:23,680
Speaker 2: his recommendation is adopted is a disaster, right, because the

1181
01:03:23,720 --> 01:03:26,840
Speaker 2: bureau Nickel plates all of their guns in order to

1182
01:03:26,920 --> 01:03:29,040
Speaker 2: make sure that they're less vulnerable to like you know,

1183
01:03:29,160 --> 01:03:32,200
Speaker 2: the the air and like see like saltwater, you know,

1184
01:03:32,280 --> 01:03:36,400
Speaker 2: heavy places, right, And because of this, it like fucks

1185
01:03:36,520 --> 01:03:38,560
Speaker 2: up the chambering of the round and all of the

1186
01:03:38,560 --> 01:03:44,320
Speaker 2: guns have to be returned to the factory. Lyddy presumably

1187
01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:46,240
Speaker 2: knew they were going to do this, but didn't think

1188
01:03:46,240 --> 01:03:48,280
Speaker 2: to check on if it would matter, because he just

1189
01:03:48,320 --> 01:03:52,760
Speaker 2: loves revolvers so much. Like again, even in his recitation

1190
01:03:52,840 --> 01:03:55,320
Speaker 2: of events, to make himself look good, he gives them

1191
01:03:55,320 --> 01:03:57,919
Speaker 2: advice on what kind of gun and round to use,

1192
01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:00,320
Speaker 2: and it is such a disaster that they have to

1193
01:04:00,360 --> 01:04:03,320
Speaker 2: recall all of the firearms. Like that's the best that

1194
01:04:03,400 --> 01:04:06,720
Speaker 2: this goes for him? Is he's completely wrong, Oh my god.

1195
01:04:07,840 --> 01:04:10,439
Speaker 2: And it's like the thing he loves the most. He's

1196
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:17,520
Speaker 2: come on very funny. Oh my god, so bizarre. Anyway,

1197
01:04:17,800 --> 01:04:20,040
Speaker 2: I think that's gonna that's gonna close us out on

1198
01:04:20,120 --> 01:04:24,160
Speaker 2: episode three of the g Gordon Liddy Story, How are

1199
01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:25,280
Speaker 2: you feeling, Andrew?

1200
01:04:25,840 --> 01:04:28,760
Speaker 3: This is I should have said probably before we even

1201
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:29,240
Speaker 3: started this.

1202
01:04:29,400 --> 01:04:31,120
Speaker 2: I'm not a person that knows like a ton of

1203
01:04:31,160 --> 01:04:35,720
Speaker 2: a Watergate at all. So this is all wonderful. Next episode,

1204
01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:40,160
Speaker 2: we're really gonna get into it, right, Yeah, but we've

1205
01:04:40,720 --> 01:04:43,200
Speaker 2: we've had We've had to go through a lot to

1206
01:04:43,320 --> 01:04:46,600
Speaker 2: set up why Liddy's even there. And I bet you're wondering,

1207
01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:48,720
Speaker 2: if you're a normal person, I bet you're wondering, like,

1208
01:04:49,840 --> 01:04:52,560
Speaker 2: how the fuck did anyone trust him doing Watergate ship?

1209
01:04:52,680 --> 01:04:55,920
Speaker 2: Given this guy's background, A solid question, how did he

1210
01:04:56,040 --> 01:04:56,960
Speaker 2: get that job?

1211
01:04:58,080 --> 01:05:00,400
Speaker 3: I mean, you see the modern version of this in

1212
01:05:00,480 --> 01:05:03,560
Speaker 3: Trump or the like, you kind of like the reason

1213
01:05:03,560 --> 01:05:05,280
Speaker 3: he gets it is because he's willing to do it.

1214
01:05:05,960 --> 01:05:08,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that is that is You have

1215
01:05:08,520 --> 01:05:12,280
Speaker 2: anticipated where this very well, very well.

1216
01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:14,400
Speaker 3: So.

1217
01:05:14,600 --> 01:05:18,280
Speaker 2: But yeah, anyway, Andrew, you get anything to plug just

1218
01:05:18,600 --> 01:05:21,080
Speaker 2: you know, still do the podcast, Jos this racist.

1219
01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:25,800
Speaker 3: I am a writer on strike, So if anyone is

1220
01:05:26,520 --> 01:05:29,200
Speaker 3: wanting to support us, hopefully, I guess there's a chance

1221
01:05:29,240 --> 01:05:31,080
Speaker 3: I'm not a writer on strike as you're listening to this,

1222
01:05:31,160 --> 01:05:32,240
Speaker 3: but likely.

1223
01:05:32,080 --> 01:05:32,680
Speaker 2: I will still be.

1224
01:05:32,840 --> 01:05:35,760
Speaker 3: And even if I'm not still on strike, the overwhelming

1225
01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:38,000
Speaker 3: possibility is going to be SAG will still be on strike.

1226
01:05:38,040 --> 01:05:41,520
Speaker 3: The as Green As Guild, So the Entertainment Community Fund

1227
01:05:41,920 --> 01:05:44,400
Speaker 3: please if you can and are able to send money

1228
01:05:44,440 --> 01:05:47,480
Speaker 3: to that. You know, it's the only way a lot

1229
01:05:47,520 --> 01:05:49,760
Speaker 3: of people are getting through. Not the only way, but

1230
01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:51,920
Speaker 3: it's one very helpful way that a lot of people

1231
01:05:51,960 --> 01:05:57,920
Speaker 3: are getting through this labor action that you know, there

1232
01:05:58,040 --> 01:06:01,000
Speaker 3: the studios are trying to extract as much pain as.

1233
01:06:00,840 --> 01:06:05,720
Speaker 2: Possible, and you know, why not not let them? Yeah,

1234
01:06:05,960 --> 01:06:07,960
Speaker 2: why not not let them? And if you want to

1235
01:06:08,000 --> 01:06:13,600
Speaker 2: extract pain, you know how to figure that out yourself.

1236
01:06:13,640 --> 01:06:16,200
Speaker 2: You know, find a way to take pain out of

1237
01:06:16,240 --> 01:06:19,720
Speaker 2: the world and ideally bottle it in such a fashion

1238
01:06:19,960 --> 01:06:23,240
Speaker 2: that you can then sell it back to somebody else. Right.

1239
01:06:24,280 --> 01:06:26,680
Speaker 2: That's capitalism, baby, Yeah, that's how it all works.

1240
01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:30,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is what we sell the other people's paid

1241
01:06:30,600 --> 01:06:31,280
Speaker 3: or our own pain.

1242
01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:38,640
Speaker 2: I don't remember. Yeah, anyway, Go to Hell.

1243
01:06:38,640 --> 01:06:41,360
Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1244
01:06:41,720 --> 01:06:45,000
Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia

1245
01:06:45,200 --> 01:06:48,360
Speaker 1: dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1246
01:06:48,480 --> 01:06:53,320
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast