1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:25,356 Speaker 1: Pushkin work. It consumes a lot of our time and 2 00:00:25,596 --> 00:00:27,876 Speaker 1: a lot of our mental bandwidth. I bet you've had 3 00:00:27,916 --> 00:00:31,436 Speaker 1: moments where you've longed for a vacation or even fantasized 4 00:00:31,436 --> 00:00:35,356 Speaker 1: about hitting retirement age. But there's another option for taking 5 00:00:35,356 --> 00:00:37,796 Speaker 1: a break from the grind, a decision that can help 6 00:00:37,836 --> 00:00:42,756 Speaker 1: you recharge and reassess. It's called a sabbatical. As a professor, 7 00:00:42,836 --> 00:00:45,796 Speaker 1: I've had the opportunity to take an academic sabbatical every 8 00:00:45,836 --> 00:00:48,196 Speaker 1: few years, and I've been very open on the show 9 00:00:48,276 --> 00:00:51,796 Speaker 1: about just how rejuvenating and important those breaks were. But 10 00:00:52,076 --> 00:00:54,396 Speaker 1: what if you aren't a professor, Can you still take 11 00:00:54,436 --> 00:00:57,276 Speaker 1: a month's long break from your job. It may sound 12 00:00:57,316 --> 00:00:59,796 Speaker 1: like a pipe dream, but more and more workplaces are 13 00:00:59,796 --> 00:01:02,836 Speaker 1: coming around to the idea that extended employee leaves are 14 00:01:02,876 --> 00:01:05,116 Speaker 1: a good thing. So to discuss the rise of the 15 00:01:05,156 --> 00:01:08,236 Speaker 1: sabbatical and its many benefits, I recorded a live edition 16 00:01:08,276 --> 00:01:10,756 Speaker 1: of The Happiness Lab at the twenty twenty five south 17 00:01:10,796 --> 00:01:13,556 Speaker 1: By Southwest Festival in Austin, and I got to talk 18 00:01:13,596 --> 00:01:16,316 Speaker 1: with one of the leading advocates of the modern sabbatical. 19 00:01:18,036 --> 00:01:20,436 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to the Happiness Lab live here at 20 00:01:20,476 --> 00:01:25,276 Speaker 2: south By Southwest. I am here in front of a 21 00:01:25,316 --> 00:01:28,276 Speaker 2: fabulous live audience, and we're going to be talking today 22 00:01:28,476 --> 00:01:32,116 Speaker 2: about the importance of sabbaticals and taking some rest. And 23 00:01:32,156 --> 00:01:36,596 Speaker 2: I'm excited to introduce my guest today, DJ Dedonna. DJ 24 00:01:36,796 --> 00:01:39,876 Speaker 2: is senior lecturer at Harvard Business School. In his former career, 25 00:01:39,916 --> 00:01:42,956 Speaker 2: he was co founder of ef Global. These days, DJ 26 00:01:43,076 --> 00:01:47,036 Speaker 2: spends his time thinking about sabbaticals and their transformative effects. 27 00:01:47,356 --> 00:01:50,236 Speaker 2: He's most recently become the founder of the Sabbatical Project, 28 00:01:50,556 --> 00:01:53,356 Speaker 2: a nonprofit aimed at creating a world where extended leave 29 00:01:53,476 --> 00:01:55,636 Speaker 2: is the norm rather than the exception. This sounds like 30 00:01:55,636 --> 00:01:57,596 Speaker 2: a world I want to live in for sure. 31 00:01:58,836 --> 00:02:02,076 Speaker 1: DJ's work on the transformative benefits of sabbaticals has been 32 00:02:02,156 --> 00:02:04,996 Speaker 1: labeled Harvard busin if you View's New Idea for twenty 33 00:02:05,036 --> 00:02:06,796 Speaker 1: twenty five. So I think we're going to be seeing 34 00:02:06,796 --> 00:02:09,476 Speaker 1: a lot more of sabbaticals this year than before. DJ's 35 00:02:09,476 --> 00:02:12,276 Speaker 1: work has appeared in The Atlantic Time magazine, Fast Company, Fortune, 36 00:02:12,276 --> 00:02:14,516 Speaker 1: in the Wall Street Journal, and lots more. And today 37 00:02:14,516 --> 00:02:16,676 Speaker 1: we're going to be talking about the research behind why 38 00:02:16,716 --> 00:02:19,596 Speaker 1: an extended break can be so important and what you 39 00:02:19,636 --> 00:02:22,356 Speaker 1: can do to convince yourself and your employer that you 40 00:02:22,436 --> 00:02:22,996 Speaker 1: might need one. 41 00:02:23,356 --> 00:02:34,956 Speaker 2: Please join me in welcoming DJ Dedata. 42 00:02:35,116 --> 00:02:37,916 Speaker 1: So, DJ, I'm curious how you became such a fan 43 00:02:38,036 --> 00:02:41,156 Speaker 1: of sabbaticals. As I understand it, this started with a 44 00:02:41,236 --> 00:02:43,796 Speaker 1: time when you yourself need a sabbatical, a moment that 45 00:02:43,836 --> 00:02:46,916 Speaker 1: you call your ice cream sandwich moment? What was that? 46 00:02:47,116 --> 00:02:49,676 Speaker 3: So I entered sabbatical land as I call it, as 47 00:02:49,716 --> 00:02:53,076 Speaker 3: most people do, which is unintentionally. So if you don't 48 00:02:53,076 --> 00:02:56,916 Speaker 3: take a sabbatical, a sabbatical will take you likely. You know, 49 00:02:56,916 --> 00:02:59,116 Speaker 3: I'd run my company for seven years and I was 50 00:02:59,116 --> 00:03:02,036 Speaker 3: feeling lower and lower energy, tough to get out of bed, 51 00:03:02,556 --> 00:03:04,996 Speaker 3: and I was growing even worse facial hair than I 52 00:03:05,036 --> 00:03:07,796 Speaker 3: have now, And my co founders were like, are you okay? 53 00:03:08,516 --> 00:03:10,316 Speaker 3: And I think I think at some point, you know, 54 00:03:10,556 --> 00:03:12,596 Speaker 3: when it was your dream job and you can't. 55 00:03:12,396 --> 00:03:14,796 Speaker 4: Get out of bed to do your job, there's a problem. 56 00:03:14,876 --> 00:03:17,836 Speaker 3: It brings up all certain types of emotions around, like 57 00:03:17,836 --> 00:03:20,276 Speaker 3: if this won't make me happy, what will The ice 58 00:03:20,356 --> 00:03:23,876 Speaker 3: cream sandwich moment was on a particularly sad kind of weekend. 59 00:03:23,956 --> 00:03:25,636 Speaker 4: It was Friday, had no plans. 60 00:03:26,116 --> 00:03:29,316 Speaker 3: I was watching a very depressing Netflix series and I 61 00:03:29,356 --> 00:03:31,236 Speaker 3: was like, I just really want an ice cream sandwich. 62 00:03:31,956 --> 00:03:34,516 Speaker 3: I lived in Cambridge, and so there's plenty of like 63 00:03:34,596 --> 00:03:37,556 Speaker 3: late night mistakes you can make. But I didn't want 64 00:03:37,556 --> 00:03:39,916 Speaker 3: to like walk into the cookie place, you know, late 65 00:03:39,916 --> 00:03:42,156 Speaker 3: at night on a Friday by myself. So I was like, 66 00:03:42,196 --> 00:03:44,596 Speaker 3: I'll just place an order for this, and I didn't 67 00:03:44,596 --> 00:03:46,676 Speaker 3: want the delivery driver to think that I was a loser. 68 00:03:46,716 --> 00:03:48,556 Speaker 3: So I was like, I'll place two orders for ice 69 00:03:48,596 --> 00:03:52,116 Speaker 3: cream sandwiches. And so I went down and got the sandwiches. 70 00:03:52,156 --> 00:03:54,396 Speaker 3: You know, hey, I'll be right down and I come back. 71 00:03:54,436 --> 00:03:56,956 Speaker 3: I eat one of them, thankfully not to and then 72 00:03:56,956 --> 00:03:59,276 Speaker 3: I'd go to put the kind of pizza box size 73 00:03:59,476 --> 00:04:01,756 Speaker 3: thing into the fridge. And I woke up the next 74 00:04:01,796 --> 00:04:04,356 Speaker 3: morning and my fridge had defrosted and ruined my floors, 75 00:04:04,436 --> 00:04:06,636 Speaker 3: and I was like, Okay, this is the sign that 76 00:04:06,676 --> 00:04:09,476 Speaker 3: I needed to take a sabbatical. So that's how into 77 00:04:09,476 --> 00:04:10,156 Speaker 3: sabbatical land. 78 00:04:10,436 --> 00:04:13,356 Speaker 1: So you made this decision to take the sabbatical, Like, 79 00:04:13,396 --> 00:04:15,076 Speaker 1: but you were the head of this company that you 80 00:04:15,076 --> 00:04:17,956 Speaker 1: were loving, Like, was that scary? What went through your 81 00:04:17,956 --> 00:04:19,076 Speaker 1: head as you made that decision? 82 00:04:19,356 --> 00:04:19,516 Speaker 4: You know. 83 00:04:19,556 --> 00:04:21,716 Speaker 3: One of the reasons why folks call it a sabbatical 84 00:04:21,796 --> 00:04:25,556 Speaker 3: is because it's this tidy term for something that feels 85 00:04:25,556 --> 00:04:28,836 Speaker 3: like your life is ending right, And so I think 86 00:04:28,876 --> 00:04:31,196 Speaker 3: for me, you know, I talked to my co founder 87 00:04:31,276 --> 00:04:33,316 Speaker 3: and he was feeling a little bit burnt out as well, 88 00:04:33,476 --> 00:04:36,436 Speaker 3: especially from the perspective of entrepreneurship. I think, if you 89 00:04:36,956 --> 00:04:39,836 Speaker 3: can't build up an organization that can survive without you 90 00:04:40,116 --> 00:04:42,676 Speaker 3: after seven or ten years, you haven't done an awesome job. 91 00:04:42,756 --> 00:04:45,436 Speaker 3: And so we were both you know, acknowledging, hey, let's 92 00:04:45,516 --> 00:04:48,356 Speaker 3: let's give some time to step away. But honestly, I 93 00:04:48,356 --> 00:04:50,556 Speaker 3: had no idea what was on the other side. I 94 00:04:50,596 --> 00:04:52,796 Speaker 3: started it with the pretense that I was going to 95 00:04:52,836 --> 00:04:55,396 Speaker 3: come back to the company, but I just I couldn't 96 00:04:55,396 --> 00:04:56,916 Speaker 3: really continue anymore as was. 97 00:04:56,916 --> 00:04:58,796 Speaker 4: Going, so decided to step away. 98 00:04:58,956 --> 00:05:02,396 Speaker 3: Said four months feels, you know, like the longest time 99 00:05:02,436 --> 00:05:04,116 Speaker 3: I've ever taken off by a factor of eight. 100 00:05:05,316 --> 00:05:07,556 Speaker 4: But yeah, so that's that's what I decided to do. 101 00:05:07,796 --> 00:05:08,596 Speaker 1: And so what happened. 102 00:05:08,916 --> 00:05:11,836 Speaker 3: So so when I think about how I describe my sabbatical, 103 00:05:11,836 --> 00:05:13,996 Speaker 3: because everyone's sabbatical is different, and I don't want to 104 00:05:13,996 --> 00:05:16,596 Speaker 3: intimidate folks that might not be able to do or 105 00:05:16,636 --> 00:05:18,516 Speaker 3: want to do the thing that I did. There's like 106 00:05:18,596 --> 00:05:22,436 Speaker 3: the Marquee events. So I did this eight hundred mile 107 00:05:22,476 --> 00:05:26,116 Speaker 3: pilgrimage in Japan. I'd really wanted to investigate on the 108 00:05:26,156 --> 00:05:31,076 Speaker 3: spiritual side, something that I felt was important but rarely urgent, right, 109 00:05:31,436 --> 00:05:33,556 Speaker 3: So that was kind of like the Marquee event. But 110 00:05:33,796 --> 00:05:36,756 Speaker 3: really some of the more impactful moments on the sabbatical 111 00:05:37,116 --> 00:05:39,236 Speaker 3: were things that I don't put up on the billboard. 112 00:05:39,356 --> 00:05:41,876 Speaker 3: So I was nursing one of my parents back to health. 113 00:05:41,876 --> 00:05:44,116 Speaker 3: So I moved back home, you know, at age thirty two, 114 00:05:44,556 --> 00:05:46,876 Speaker 3: cooked a lot of meals. I helped a cousin of 115 00:05:46,916 --> 00:05:49,076 Speaker 3: mine move and another cousin of mine build a deck, 116 00:05:49,516 --> 00:05:52,156 Speaker 3: so I hung cabinets myself and got to have that experience. 117 00:05:52,596 --> 00:05:54,156 Speaker 4: And you know, I wrote my first song. 118 00:05:54,316 --> 00:05:56,836 Speaker 3: I bought a ukulele on Amazon, which is super embarrassing, 119 00:05:57,276 --> 00:05:59,316 Speaker 3: and I brought it along on the on the trip, 120 00:05:59,716 --> 00:06:01,956 Speaker 3: and so I wrote and performed my first song in 121 00:06:01,996 --> 00:06:04,676 Speaker 3: a place where definitely no one would know me. 122 00:06:04,916 --> 00:06:06,036 Speaker 4: So that was that was helpful. 123 00:06:19,756 --> 00:06:21,316 Speaker 1: And so I think we're going to talk about what 124 00:06:21,396 --> 00:06:23,316 Speaker 1: you learn from this and some of the benefits soon. 125 00:06:23,396 --> 00:06:25,916 Speaker 1: But I want to start with some definitions because I'm 126 00:06:25,916 --> 00:06:28,116 Speaker 1: a nerdy professor, and that's where I go, And so 127 00:06:28,996 --> 00:06:30,636 Speaker 1: how do you define a sabbatical? 128 00:06:31,156 --> 00:06:34,716 Speaker 3: So the definition that I think about is an intentional 129 00:06:34,876 --> 00:06:39,156 Speaker 3: extended leave from your routine job. So intentional, not that 130 00:06:39,236 --> 00:06:41,636 Speaker 3: you have to have made the decision to take it, 131 00:06:41,676 --> 00:06:44,916 Speaker 3: because most sabbaticals kind of happen to you, but that 132 00:06:44,996 --> 00:06:46,876 Speaker 3: once you're on sabbatical, you stay there. 133 00:06:47,396 --> 00:06:47,556 Speaker 4: Right. 134 00:06:47,596 --> 00:06:50,076 Speaker 3: And so as soon as we leave a job, our 135 00:06:50,156 --> 00:06:51,716 Speaker 3: new job is to find another job. 136 00:06:52,156 --> 00:06:52,316 Speaker 4: Right. 137 00:06:52,356 --> 00:06:53,996 Speaker 3: It's like very hard to be in that kind of 138 00:06:54,076 --> 00:06:57,636 Speaker 3: liminal state between careers, between jobs. So in order for 139 00:06:57,676 --> 00:06:59,836 Speaker 3: it to be a sabbatical, you got to like create space, 140 00:07:00,036 --> 00:07:02,876 Speaker 3: not look for another job extended, So it has to 141 00:07:02,916 --> 00:07:05,516 Speaker 3: be measured in months, not weeks. I think we like 142 00:07:05,596 --> 00:07:07,836 Speaker 3: to say at least three months. I took four. I 143 00:07:07,876 --> 00:07:10,116 Speaker 3: wish it would have been six. Most people I think 144 00:07:10,156 --> 00:07:12,636 Speaker 3: would like to take between six and twelve. Nine is 145 00:07:12,716 --> 00:07:15,276 Speaker 3: very symbolic because you're kind of like creating something new. 146 00:07:15,476 --> 00:07:16,916 Speaker 4: And then from your routine job. 147 00:07:17,036 --> 00:07:20,556 Speaker 3: So most folks, especially type A achievers, probably some in 148 00:07:20,556 --> 00:07:22,876 Speaker 3: this room, will say like, all right, I'm gonna go 149 00:07:22,996 --> 00:07:24,356 Speaker 3: off work and then I'm gonna learn how to be 150 00:07:24,396 --> 00:07:26,876 Speaker 3: fluent in a foreign language, or I'm gonna like write 151 00:07:26,876 --> 00:07:28,676 Speaker 3: a book or something like that. And what we found 152 00:07:28,716 --> 00:07:32,396 Speaker 3: in the research is actually that active rest. So doing 153 00:07:32,516 --> 00:07:34,436 Speaker 3: a job that is not your job can actually be 154 00:07:34,516 --> 00:07:37,596 Speaker 3: fulfilling and healing as long as it's not similar to 155 00:07:37,636 --> 00:07:40,556 Speaker 3: your routine job at all. Right, So don't do like 156 00:07:40,716 --> 00:07:43,636 Speaker 3: consulting projects to make a little bit more money, like 157 00:07:43,716 --> 00:07:46,756 Speaker 3: really switch out of your routine job, routine work into 158 00:07:46,796 --> 00:07:49,996 Speaker 3: something that feels fulfilling. So write that book, like become 159 00:07:49,996 --> 00:07:52,836 Speaker 3: a yoga teacher certified, right, but has to be very 160 00:07:52,836 --> 00:07:53,796 Speaker 3: different from what you're doing. 161 00:07:54,636 --> 00:07:56,756 Speaker 1: It's kind of a funny word, right, you use this 162 00:07:56,876 --> 00:08:01,036 Speaker 1: term extendedly. It's not a vacation. It's a sabbatical. It 163 00:08:01,116 --> 00:08:03,396 Speaker 1: kind of sounds almost like old school like like the 164 00:08:03,436 --> 00:08:06,916 Speaker 1: Bible like a sabbatical, right, I mean is that intentional? 165 00:08:06,956 --> 00:08:08,076 Speaker 1: Where did this concept come from? 166 00:08:08,196 --> 00:08:10,996 Speaker 3: Yeah, So the of the word is ancient. Comes from 167 00:08:10,996 --> 00:08:14,516 Speaker 3: Hebrew scripture Shabbat, right, And so this concept that you 168 00:08:14,556 --> 00:08:16,756 Speaker 3: work for six days and on the seventh day you 169 00:08:16,876 --> 00:08:20,556 Speaker 3: devote that to worship. That also expanded out into you're 170 00:08:20,596 --> 00:08:23,036 Speaker 3: supposed to till the fields for six years and then 171 00:08:23,116 --> 00:08:25,916 Speaker 3: let them lie fallow for one year. And so that's 172 00:08:25,956 --> 00:08:28,156 Speaker 3: the notion of the rest right, that you have to 173 00:08:28,196 --> 00:08:30,396 Speaker 3: have rest in some sort of period of time. 174 00:08:30,636 --> 00:08:32,756 Speaker 4: Then it was kind of taken on by academia. 175 00:08:32,836 --> 00:08:36,436 Speaker 3: So late nineteenth century, the president of Harvard I went 176 00:08:36,436 --> 00:08:38,316 Speaker 3: through and looked up the notes, like the minutes, the 177 00:08:38,316 --> 00:08:41,236 Speaker 3: meeting minutes, which is fun They had done research on 178 00:08:42,116 --> 00:08:45,756 Speaker 3: how much breaks do faculty need in order to replenish 179 00:08:45,836 --> 00:08:47,956 Speaker 3: themselves and also to do research, so they would have 180 00:08:48,036 --> 00:08:49,516 Speaker 3: to go over to Europe to figure out like what's 181 00:08:49,516 --> 00:08:52,556 Speaker 3: actually going on in the academy. And the funny thing 182 00:08:52,556 --> 00:08:55,436 Speaker 3: about that was that in the definition there it talked 183 00:08:55,436 --> 00:08:59,716 Speaker 3: about rest and recovery and also pursuit of science and knowledge. 184 00:09:00,236 --> 00:09:02,436 Speaker 3: And if you look now, like the rest and recovery 185 00:09:02,436 --> 00:09:05,716 Speaker 3: piece is totally dubiously absent from all these kind of 186 00:09:05,716 --> 00:09:09,836 Speaker 3: academic sabbatical leave policies. But that's the base sick history 187 00:09:09,836 --> 00:09:10,596 Speaker 3: of the terminology. 188 00:09:10,756 --> 00:09:13,556 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, as a professor, many people in academia 189 00:09:13,676 --> 00:09:16,556 Speaker 1: get something like a sabbatical, think it's going away. But 190 00:09:16,676 --> 00:09:18,876 Speaker 1: this is really rare in other fields. 191 00:09:18,596 --> 00:09:22,076 Speaker 3: Right, totally rare, and it's increasingly rare in academia, right. 192 00:09:22,836 --> 00:09:25,116 Speaker 3: Folks that are you know, are not getting paid for 193 00:09:25,196 --> 00:09:27,556 Speaker 3: it or shrinking down into a semester. Maybe we can 194 00:09:27,596 --> 00:09:31,036 Speaker 3: talk about your sabbatical later. But it's you know, about 195 00:09:31,036 --> 00:09:34,676 Speaker 3: five percent of companies offer this policy. It's much more prevalent, 196 00:09:34,876 --> 00:09:37,556 Speaker 3: you know, and kind of like tech and companies where 197 00:09:37,556 --> 00:09:40,916 Speaker 3: they're really trying to recruit talent and retain talent. It's increasing, 198 00:09:40,996 --> 00:09:44,236 Speaker 3: So it's doubled since twenty nineteen, and it seems to 199 00:09:44,236 --> 00:09:47,956 Speaker 3: be increasing over time, but still definitely the minority, especially 200 00:09:48,716 --> 00:09:51,076 Speaker 3: paid sabbatical with some sort of benefits and that sort 201 00:09:51,076 --> 00:09:51,316 Speaker 3: of thing. 202 00:09:52,036 --> 00:09:54,036 Speaker 1: And so you've done this cool project where you've been 203 00:09:54,036 --> 00:09:57,436 Speaker 1: studying sabbaticals scientifically, You've done hundreds of interviews, dozens of 204 00:09:57,436 --> 00:10:01,196 Speaker 1: different academic studies. From your research, I'm curious who is 205 00:10:01,236 --> 00:10:03,396 Speaker 1: taking sabbaticals and why are they taking them. 206 00:10:04,476 --> 00:10:06,796 Speaker 3: So when I first started out, I thought I was 207 00:10:06,836 --> 00:10:08,676 Speaker 3: the customer, and so people who are in their mid 208 00:10:08,676 --> 00:10:11,756 Speaker 3: thirties forties who burn out take sabbaticals. And then what 209 00:10:11,796 --> 00:10:14,796 Speaker 3: I started to realize is that folks are starting as 210 00:10:14,836 --> 00:10:17,636 Speaker 3: early as kind of gap years. They're tagging along with 211 00:10:17,676 --> 00:10:20,756 Speaker 3: their parents sabbaticals. So when I thought about the research 212 00:10:20,796 --> 00:10:23,236 Speaker 3: in the book, it's kind of going from gap years 213 00:10:23,316 --> 00:10:27,436 Speaker 3: to twilight careers. So kind of like pre retirement type age. 214 00:10:27,676 --> 00:10:30,796 Speaker 3: So it's really anyone that either has something forced upon 215 00:10:30,836 --> 00:10:33,476 Speaker 3: them or takes this opportunity to take time off. I 216 00:10:33,476 --> 00:10:35,436 Speaker 3: think gap years are a great example. 217 00:10:35,036 --> 00:10:37,876 Speaker 1: Of that, and so why are they taking them? Like 218 00:10:37,916 --> 00:10:38,476 Speaker 1: what happens? 219 00:10:38,876 --> 00:10:41,676 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, two thirds of sabbaticals are catalyzed by 220 00:10:41,756 --> 00:10:45,076 Speaker 3: a very negative event. So either a personal health crisis 221 00:10:45,236 --> 00:10:48,476 Speaker 3: or you get fired, or you know, let's say, like 222 00:10:48,516 --> 00:10:51,156 Speaker 3: a global calamity or pandemic forces you to think about 223 00:10:51,156 --> 00:10:54,516 Speaker 3: work totally differently. And then there's also positive catalysts, right, 224 00:10:54,636 --> 00:10:57,596 Speaker 3: so you sell your company, you know, you get like 225 00:10:57,636 --> 00:11:00,756 Speaker 3: a kind of employment leave things like that. And then 226 00:11:00,836 --> 00:11:03,356 Speaker 3: I like to say this neutral catalyst of if you 227 00:11:03,396 --> 00:11:04,956 Speaker 3: have a company, if you work for a company with 228 00:11:04,956 --> 00:11:07,476 Speaker 3: a sabbatical policy, then you get to take that time 229 00:11:07,516 --> 00:11:08,956 Speaker 3: off and you don't even have to think about it. 230 00:11:09,356 --> 00:11:11,396 Speaker 3: And you know, there are a lot of companies that 231 00:11:11,436 --> 00:11:14,676 Speaker 3: offer that, and then also countries that enable people to 232 00:11:14,716 --> 00:11:16,916 Speaker 3: do it, Like in Sweden you can take six months 233 00:11:16,916 --> 00:11:19,436 Speaker 3: off to try to start a business. In Australia, if 234 00:11:19,436 --> 00:11:21,796 Speaker 3: you're a civil servant, you get six months off every 235 00:11:21,836 --> 00:11:22,356 Speaker 3: seven years. 236 00:11:22,876 --> 00:11:24,796 Speaker 1: Man, I didn't realize there are countries that were doing this. 237 00:11:24,916 --> 00:11:27,516 Speaker 1: That is exciting, and that also reminds me that your 238 00:11:27,516 --> 00:11:30,036 Speaker 1: research has shown that there's lots of misconceptions when it 239 00:11:30,076 --> 00:11:32,676 Speaker 1: comes to sabbaticals. So let's go through some of these. 240 00:11:32,996 --> 00:11:35,396 Speaker 1: I think when I think of sabbaticals, I first think, 241 00:11:35,676 --> 00:11:38,876 Speaker 1: maybe we're just dealing with like a longish vacation. How 242 00:11:38,916 --> 00:11:40,076 Speaker 1: is this sabbatical different than that? 243 00:11:40,756 --> 00:11:44,476 Speaker 3: So everyone who has taken a sabbatical has also taken 244 00:11:44,476 --> 00:11:47,436 Speaker 3: a vacation, and they're saying that something profoundly different. 245 00:11:47,156 --> 00:11:47,676 Speaker 4: Is going on. 246 00:11:48,116 --> 00:11:50,756 Speaker 3: When you're on vacation, all the things you're on vacation 247 00:11:50,836 --> 00:11:53,676 Speaker 3: from are piling up in the back, right, your inbox 248 00:11:53,756 --> 00:11:55,196 Speaker 3: is piling up. You know that you have to come 249 00:11:55,236 --> 00:11:58,116 Speaker 3: back to work and get things done. When you're on sabbatical, 250 00:11:58,356 --> 00:12:00,516 Speaker 3: you're gone long enough so that those things are off 251 00:12:00,556 --> 00:12:03,236 Speaker 3: of your plate, so you can actually kind of deepen 252 00:12:03,276 --> 00:12:05,436 Speaker 3: into what's going on and you don't have to worry 253 00:12:05,436 --> 00:12:06,996 Speaker 3: about like what's happening at work. 254 00:12:07,356 --> 00:12:10,076 Speaker 1: So different misconception is this idea of that sabbaticals are 255 00:12:10,076 --> 00:12:12,436 Speaker 1: basically a midlife crisis. It's your freak out. You don't 256 00:12:12,476 --> 00:12:15,196 Speaker 1: know what you're doing, you're burning out, Like I guess 257 00:12:15,236 --> 00:12:18,156 Speaker 1: that's maybe part of some sabbaticals, but that doesn't define it. 258 00:12:18,556 --> 00:12:21,316 Speaker 3: Yeah, So we talked about the times when people take 259 00:12:21,356 --> 00:12:23,516 Speaker 3: the sabbaticals over the course of their life, and we 260 00:12:23,556 --> 00:12:25,516 Speaker 3: talked about whether or not you take a sabbatical or 261 00:12:25,556 --> 00:12:28,196 Speaker 3: sabbatical takes you. So that can certainly be the case 262 00:12:28,316 --> 00:12:30,636 Speaker 3: where you're living a life that doesn't feel authentic to 263 00:12:30,716 --> 00:12:33,476 Speaker 3: you long enough that you feel like you have to 264 00:12:33,556 --> 00:12:35,476 Speaker 3: kind of burn the boats and like cast off lines. 265 00:12:35,876 --> 00:12:38,156 Speaker 3: I think I was a little precocious in my midlife crisis, 266 00:12:38,196 --> 00:12:40,556 Speaker 3: like a little bit earlier than midlife. Hopefully you think 267 00:12:40,556 --> 00:12:43,316 Speaker 3: about it like a dental cleaning appointment, Like you want 268 00:12:43,356 --> 00:12:45,916 Speaker 3: to take these like cleaning appointments, right, we don't love them, 269 00:12:45,916 --> 00:12:47,836 Speaker 3: but you try to take them every six months so 270 00:12:47,876 --> 00:12:50,316 Speaker 3: that you don't have like a root canal emergency. So 271 00:12:50,396 --> 00:12:53,076 Speaker 3: the whole goal of this is can you identify inflection 272 00:12:53,156 --> 00:12:55,636 Speaker 3: points in your life to take them off as opposed 273 00:12:55,636 --> 00:12:58,036 Speaker 3: to waiting for some big crisis to pull you into 274 00:12:58,076 --> 00:12:58,756 Speaker 3: sabbatical land. 275 00:12:59,436 --> 00:13:01,756 Speaker 1: All right, here's another misconception that I think comes on 276 00:13:01,796 --> 00:13:04,756 Speaker 1: the employer side, the idea that sabbatical is basically just 277 00:13:04,796 --> 00:13:06,996 Speaker 1: a golden parachute, like you take a break from a 278 00:13:07,076 --> 00:13:09,756 Speaker 1: job that you're thinking about basically getting the heck out 279 00:13:09,796 --> 00:13:11,276 Speaker 1: of anyway? Is this the case? 280 00:13:11,836 --> 00:13:14,316 Speaker 3: So what we found in the research is that the 281 00:13:14,396 --> 00:13:17,556 Speaker 3: super majority of people that take a sabbatical that's enabled 282 00:13:17,556 --> 00:13:20,356 Speaker 3: by their company come back, So over eighty percent come 283 00:13:20,396 --> 00:13:23,116 Speaker 3: back to their job. So it's not really a golden parachute. Now, 284 00:13:23,236 --> 00:13:26,036 Speaker 3: people do leave. But the difference, and we can get 285 00:13:26,076 --> 00:13:28,556 Speaker 3: more into this around kind of what's in it for companies. 286 00:13:28,716 --> 00:13:31,156 Speaker 3: The difference is you are spending a bunch of time 287 00:13:31,396 --> 00:13:34,356 Speaker 3: preparing the company to do all the tasks that you're 288 00:13:34,356 --> 00:13:36,996 Speaker 3: doing before you leave on sabbatical, and so you're kind 289 00:13:37,036 --> 00:13:38,836 Speaker 3: of like preparing the company for you to be gone, 290 00:13:39,356 --> 00:13:41,876 Speaker 3: and you're also like allowing the company to see, like 291 00:13:41,956 --> 00:13:43,836 Speaker 3: what are all the things that you do? Who else 292 00:13:43,876 --> 00:13:45,596 Speaker 3: could be doing it? Who could be stepping up in 293 00:13:45,636 --> 00:13:48,876 Speaker 3: your midst things like that. So not really a golden parachute, 294 00:13:48,916 --> 00:13:51,716 Speaker 3: but people do leave. I think the argument is if 295 00:13:51,756 --> 00:13:53,636 Speaker 3: someone's going to leave as soon as you let them 296 00:13:53,636 --> 00:13:55,236 Speaker 3: out of the door and off the leash, like were 297 00:13:55,276 --> 00:13:56,236 Speaker 3: they doing great work? 298 00:13:56,716 --> 00:13:58,836 Speaker 1: Yeah? But do we have data on it, like how 299 00:13:58,836 --> 00:14:01,076 Speaker 1: many people actually take off after a sabbatical? 300 00:14:01,116 --> 00:14:03,076 Speaker 4: About twenty percent. Yeah, so it is. 301 00:14:03,156 --> 00:14:06,116 Speaker 1: It's non zero, but it's not like eighty percent orred percent. 302 00:14:06,156 --> 00:14:08,076 Speaker 3: And you know, one hundred percent of the people who 303 00:14:08,116 --> 00:14:10,396 Speaker 3: don't have a sabbatical policy at work are taking off 304 00:14:10,396 --> 00:14:11,196 Speaker 3: to take a sabbatical. 305 00:14:11,596 --> 00:14:15,076 Speaker 1: Yeah, right's fair, that's fair. And that gets a different misconception, 306 00:14:15,116 --> 00:14:17,516 Speaker 1: which is this idea that sabbaticals are sort of costly 307 00:14:17,556 --> 00:14:19,836 Speaker 1: for businesses. But you've argued a better way to think 308 00:14:19,876 --> 00:14:21,756 Speaker 1: about them as an investment. What do you mean? 309 00:14:22,436 --> 00:14:25,156 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think listen, as I was saying about an 310 00:14:25,596 --> 00:14:28,796 Speaker 3: entrepreneurial company, if if it can't survive without you leaving 311 00:14:28,796 --> 00:14:32,316 Speaker 3: it as a leader, that's a problem. Similarly, turnover is 312 00:14:32,356 --> 00:14:34,516 Speaker 3: just something that happens, Like how many people here have 313 00:14:34,556 --> 00:14:35,156 Speaker 3: left a job? 314 00:14:35,516 --> 00:14:35,756 Speaker 4: Right? 315 00:14:36,076 --> 00:14:37,636 Speaker 1: That was a lot of hands for the listeners that 316 00:14:37,636 --> 00:14:38,236 Speaker 1: you haven't. 317 00:14:38,076 --> 00:14:38,636 Speaker 4: Left a job. 318 00:14:39,436 --> 00:14:41,196 Speaker 3: So people are going to leave anyway, and as a 319 00:14:41,236 --> 00:14:42,916 Speaker 3: company you have to be prepared. You have to be 320 00:14:42,956 --> 00:14:46,476 Speaker 3: resilient to survive turnover. People are going to quit, they're 321 00:14:46,476 --> 00:14:49,596 Speaker 3: going to go on parental leave, and so it is practice. 322 00:14:49,636 --> 00:14:52,116 Speaker 3: It's like building a muscle of figuring out what tasks 323 00:14:52,196 --> 00:14:54,916 Speaker 3: you have, offloading them on to other people and really 324 00:14:55,036 --> 00:14:57,116 Speaker 3: kind of investing in that muscle as a company. 325 00:14:57,796 --> 00:14:59,156 Speaker 1: So when we get back from the break, we're going 326 00:14:59,196 --> 00:15:02,036 Speaker 1: to see why a sabatoput can be such a helpful investment, 327 00:15:02,236 --> 00:15:04,276 Speaker 1: not just for the person taking it, but even more 328 00:15:04,356 --> 00:15:07,516 Speaker 1: for the company that allows it. The Happiness Lab will 329 00:15:07,556 --> 00:15:19,716 Speaker 1: be back in a moment. You're listening to a live 330 00:15:19,876 --> 00:15:22,796 Speaker 1: edition of The Happiness Lab recorded at south By Southwest 331 00:15:22,836 --> 00:15:26,716 Speaker 1: twenty twenty five with my friend, the Sabbatical Expert, DJ Dedonna. 332 00:15:27,236 --> 00:15:29,476 Speaker 1: I started this next section of the show by asking 333 00:15:29,516 --> 00:15:32,116 Speaker 1: Dj to give us a breakdown of the average sabbatical 334 00:15:32,316 --> 00:15:34,596 Speaker 1: and to explain how the benefits of taking a break 335 00:15:34,756 --> 00:15:35,556 Speaker 1: tend to unfold. 336 00:15:36,356 --> 00:15:36,596 Speaker 4: Yeah. 337 00:15:36,636 --> 00:15:39,356 Speaker 3: So from a personal perspective, I think you can expect 338 00:15:39,396 --> 00:15:41,276 Speaker 3: a lot of things. And if you're coming into the 339 00:15:41,276 --> 00:15:45,236 Speaker 3: sabbatical super burnt out, then you probably need to heal 340 00:15:45,396 --> 00:15:47,396 Speaker 3: and that's going to be the first thing that you get. 341 00:15:47,436 --> 00:15:49,876 Speaker 3: So in the research in my interviews, I talked to 342 00:15:50,036 --> 00:15:52,796 Speaker 3: a ton of people that had some sort of physical ailment, 343 00:15:52,836 --> 00:15:56,596 Speaker 3: whether it's ulcer's, stomach, gastro stuff, and they've been told 344 00:15:56,636 --> 00:15:59,476 Speaker 3: by doctors this is stress related, But until they actually 345 00:15:59,516 --> 00:16:01,876 Speaker 3: stepped away from work long enough for that to heal. 346 00:16:02,116 --> 00:16:04,476 Speaker 3: They couldn't kind of grock that right. So I think 347 00:16:04,516 --> 00:16:07,796 Speaker 3: healing is one of the first things. Creativity is one 348 00:16:07,876 --> 00:16:10,076 Speaker 3: of the next things. So you're taking time off and 349 00:16:10,116 --> 00:16:12,796 Speaker 3: you're doing whatever you want to do, and that ends 350 00:16:12,876 --> 00:16:15,316 Speaker 3: up like kind of reigniting a lot of creativity. For me, 351 00:16:15,476 --> 00:16:18,876 Speaker 3: it was writing silly songs on ukulele, but like whatever 352 00:16:18,916 --> 00:16:21,636 Speaker 3: you would like to do. We think about like working 353 00:16:21,636 --> 00:16:24,196 Speaker 3: on ourselves as work as opposed to play. So there's 354 00:16:24,196 --> 00:16:27,516 Speaker 3: this concept of identity play as helping you run little 355 00:16:27,556 --> 00:16:30,636 Speaker 3: experiments figure out what you want to do next. And 356 00:16:30,636 --> 00:16:33,436 Speaker 3: then I think confidence is a huge one. No matter 357 00:16:33,476 --> 00:16:35,796 Speaker 3: if you have a sabbatical policy at your company or not. 358 00:16:35,876 --> 00:16:38,596 Speaker 3: It's pretty scary to launch off for an extended period 359 00:16:38,636 --> 00:16:40,756 Speaker 3: of time. Like I'd never taken more than a couple 360 00:16:40,836 --> 00:16:43,516 Speaker 3: weeks off work since I don't know middle school, and 361 00:16:43,556 --> 00:16:46,676 Speaker 3: so to take four months off that's scary, especially. 362 00:16:46,316 --> 00:16:47,916 Speaker 4: If you're leaving your job. What are you going to 363 00:16:47,956 --> 00:16:48,916 Speaker 4: do on the other side of it? 364 00:16:48,996 --> 00:16:51,836 Speaker 3: That sort of thing, And so being able to do 365 00:16:51,916 --> 00:16:55,516 Speaker 3: something that seems scary and then come back and say, actually, 366 00:16:55,636 --> 00:16:59,036 Speaker 3: I'm fine really builds up people's confidence to take big 367 00:16:59,076 --> 00:17:00,236 Speaker 3: steps in big leaps. 368 00:17:00,396 --> 00:17:02,396 Speaker 4: It's also hopefully running. 369 00:17:02,116 --> 00:17:05,196 Speaker 3: Experiments on your sabbatical to say like, oh, I thought 370 00:17:05,236 --> 00:17:07,396 Speaker 3: that I wanted to write, and I actually like writing, 371 00:17:07,476 --> 00:17:09,916 Speaker 3: and so that builds up confidence ability to do it. 372 00:17:10,236 --> 00:17:12,076 Speaker 1: And it seems like from your research when you talk 373 00:17:12,116 --> 00:17:14,676 Speaker 1: to people, these benefits are really common, Like this is 374 00:17:14,756 --> 00:17:17,356 Speaker 1: just what you hear everybody who take sabbatical saying. 375 00:17:17,276 --> 00:17:20,076 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's funny because I came back from 376 00:17:20,076 --> 00:17:23,116 Speaker 3: my sabbatical and I said that was really changed who 377 00:17:23,156 --> 00:17:25,676 Speaker 3: I was as a person. So this kind of identity 378 00:17:25,796 --> 00:17:29,156 Speaker 3: was enmeshed with my company, and if the company was successful, 379 00:17:29,156 --> 00:17:31,636 Speaker 3: I was successful. If it wasn't, I wasn't. And so 380 00:17:31,716 --> 00:17:33,276 Speaker 3: I was able to kind of break free from that. 381 00:17:33,716 --> 00:17:35,716 Speaker 3: But I wanted to check to make sure it wasn't 382 00:17:35,756 --> 00:17:37,996 Speaker 3: just my experience. And so the more folks that I 383 00:17:38,036 --> 00:17:40,516 Speaker 3: talked to, the more you just kept hearing these terms 384 00:17:40,556 --> 00:17:44,156 Speaker 3: like peak life experience. It's up there with like having 385 00:17:44,156 --> 00:17:47,476 Speaker 3: a child, like getting married. So you're creating an event 386 00:17:47,516 --> 00:17:49,716 Speaker 3: for yourself that will be one of the most important 387 00:17:49,716 --> 00:17:50,876 Speaker 3: events of your entire life. 388 00:17:50,916 --> 00:17:52,956 Speaker 1: It also seems like you take time to notice the 389 00:17:52,996 --> 00:17:55,356 Speaker 1: things that you're not doing. You've talked a lot in 390 00:17:55,396 --> 00:17:58,036 Speaker 1: your work about this idea of functional workaholism and how 391 00:17:58,036 --> 00:18:00,836 Speaker 1: a sabbatical can help you penetrate into that a little bit. 392 00:18:00,956 --> 00:18:01,476 Speaker 1: What do you mean. 393 00:18:01,836 --> 00:18:03,836 Speaker 3: Yeah, so we talk a lot about burnout. I view 394 00:18:03,876 --> 00:18:05,756 Speaker 3: burnout as a spectrum. So you're kind of like, you're 395 00:18:05,796 --> 00:18:08,236 Speaker 3: like burning out right, You're existing on a spectrum where 396 00:18:08,236 --> 00:18:10,996 Speaker 3: you're not doing your bath, not feeling great. That's kind 397 00:18:10,996 --> 00:18:12,956 Speaker 3: of hard to realize unless you step out from it. 398 00:18:13,436 --> 00:18:16,276 Speaker 3: And stepping out I'm assuming you've all had the experience 399 00:18:16,316 --> 00:18:18,156 Speaker 3: where you go on a vacation for a week and 400 00:18:18,196 --> 00:18:19,596 Speaker 3: right at the end you're like, oh man, I was 401 00:18:19,756 --> 00:18:21,396 Speaker 3: just sinking into it, and then you have to PLoP 402 00:18:21,436 --> 00:18:24,756 Speaker 3: back into work. So stepping out long enough to say, Wow, 403 00:18:24,796 --> 00:18:26,316 Speaker 3: the way that I was working and the way that 404 00:18:26,356 --> 00:18:29,116 Speaker 3: I was living was actually not serving me, and I 405 00:18:29,116 --> 00:18:30,596 Speaker 3: want to just step out of that for a little bit. 406 00:18:30,636 --> 00:18:31,956 Speaker 4: I might want to make a big change. 407 00:18:31,996 --> 00:18:35,436 Speaker 3: But obviously people's experience of COVID varied widely, but I 408 00:18:35,436 --> 00:18:38,236 Speaker 3: think a lot of folks saw, oh man, now that 409 00:18:38,276 --> 00:18:40,236 Speaker 3: I'm back at home with my family, I actually want 410 00:18:40,276 --> 00:18:42,556 Speaker 3: to do that more. And like the way that I 411 00:18:42,596 --> 00:18:44,556 Speaker 3: was kind of returning back to my family or or 412 00:18:44,596 --> 00:18:47,076 Speaker 3: you know, even how I was working was not really great. 413 00:18:47,316 --> 00:18:49,596 Speaker 3: So you needed like some perspective and like a long 414 00:18:49,716 --> 00:18:51,756 Speaker 3: enough break from the norm to understand that. 415 00:18:52,156 --> 00:18:54,396 Speaker 1: And also this seems connected to this idea you've talked 416 00:18:54,396 --> 00:18:57,956 Speaker 1: about called regret insurance, right, maybe like a benefit that 417 00:18:57,996 --> 00:18:59,716 Speaker 1: comes later in life. What's that like? 418 00:18:59,796 --> 00:19:02,556 Speaker 3: Imagine you're, you know, the age of your grandparents, and 419 00:19:02,596 --> 00:19:05,556 Speaker 3: you're telling your grandkid a story, like what do you 420 00:19:05,676 --> 00:19:08,636 Speaker 3: want to have in that story? Bronnie Ware, who is 421 00:19:08,636 --> 00:19:10,876 Speaker 3: a Pallido care nurse, talks about the five Regrets of 422 00:19:10,916 --> 00:19:14,356 Speaker 3: the dying and this notion that you have not lived 423 00:19:14,796 --> 00:19:17,316 Speaker 3: a life authentic to yourself. If you close your eyes 424 00:19:17,356 --> 00:19:19,676 Speaker 3: real quick and think, like, what would I want to 425 00:19:19,676 --> 00:19:21,956 Speaker 3: do with my life? If I could do anything? Can 426 00:19:21,996 --> 00:19:24,396 Speaker 3: that happen in the life that you're living now? Maybe, 427 00:19:24,396 --> 00:19:26,556 Speaker 3: but probably not, Like it takes a little bit of time, 428 00:19:26,596 --> 00:19:29,396 Speaker 3: and taking six months off in the scheme of working 429 00:19:29,436 --> 00:19:31,236 Speaker 3: for forty years is just not that much time. 430 00:19:31,276 --> 00:19:32,676 Speaker 4: It's less than like two percent. 431 00:19:32,956 --> 00:19:34,796 Speaker 1: I mean, if you know then what you knew now, 432 00:19:34,836 --> 00:19:37,236 Speaker 1: would you still choose the sabbatical? Would you do it differently? 433 00:19:37,676 --> 00:19:37,916 Speaker 4: Yeah? 434 00:19:37,996 --> 00:19:39,876 Speaker 3: Actually, one of the things that spurred me to taking 435 00:19:39,916 --> 00:19:42,756 Speaker 3: my sabbatical was advice from a mentor. I went into 436 00:19:42,756 --> 00:19:45,796 Speaker 3: that mentor's office and I was complaining, you know, hey, 437 00:19:45,876 --> 00:19:48,236 Speaker 3: like this is hard, this is tough. The company's not 438 00:19:48,276 --> 00:19:49,836 Speaker 3: working as much as I would like it to be, 439 00:19:49,956 --> 00:19:53,356 Speaker 3: or whatnot. And he said, DJ, if you knew then 440 00:19:53,476 --> 00:19:55,956 Speaker 3: all the things you know about your life and your company, now, 441 00:19:56,116 --> 00:19:59,196 Speaker 3: would you join that company again tomorrow? And it was 442 00:19:59,316 --> 00:20:02,716 Speaker 3: very clear. I was like, absolutely not. And so I think, 443 00:20:02,796 --> 00:20:05,236 Speaker 3: like the tough part about our lives is lived kind 444 00:20:05,236 --> 00:20:06,956 Speaker 3: of with this inertia. You've made a bunch of small 445 00:20:06,996 --> 00:20:08,676 Speaker 3: decisions and all of a sudden you find yourself in 446 00:20:08,716 --> 00:20:11,436 Speaker 3: this past. So I guess encouraging you to think about 447 00:20:11,796 --> 00:20:14,076 Speaker 3: would you want to return to this exact life, and 448 00:20:14,116 --> 00:20:16,156 Speaker 3: if not, how are you going to run experiments to 449 00:20:16,156 --> 00:20:17,756 Speaker 3: figure out what other track you need to be on. 450 00:20:17,956 --> 00:20:20,516 Speaker 3: So long way to answer your question, But I look 451 00:20:20,596 --> 00:20:22,956 Speaker 3: back at that time and it's the most dense period 452 00:20:22,996 --> 00:20:25,036 Speaker 3: of memories in my entire life. It was eight years 453 00:20:25,036 --> 00:20:27,796 Speaker 3: ago right now I was walking in Japan, and so 454 00:20:28,116 --> 00:20:29,556 Speaker 3: that will serve me, I think, for the rest. 455 00:20:29,436 --> 00:20:29,916 Speaker 4: Of my life. 456 00:20:29,996 --> 00:20:32,036 Speaker 1: So it seems like sabbaticals are serving the people who 457 00:20:32,036 --> 00:20:34,276 Speaker 1: take them. But now I really want to jump into 458 00:20:34,276 --> 00:20:36,796 Speaker 1: these benefits that employers can get because I think this 459 00:20:37,316 --> 00:20:39,676 Speaker 1: is one of the reasons that sabbaticals aren't just equal 460 00:20:39,756 --> 00:20:41,796 Speaker 1: for everyone, that not every company is doing this right 461 00:20:41,836 --> 00:20:43,916 Speaker 1: is I think employers are really worried about whether this 462 00:20:43,996 --> 00:20:46,916 Speaker 1: is going to be incredibly costly for companies. We talked 463 00:20:46,916 --> 00:20:48,756 Speaker 1: a little bit about some of these benefits, but I 464 00:20:48,756 --> 00:20:50,876 Speaker 1: want to do a deeper dive, like what are companies 465 00:20:50,916 --> 00:20:53,436 Speaker 1: really getting out of this when they set up sabbatical policies. 466 00:20:53,516 --> 00:20:53,756 Speaker 4: Yeah. 467 00:20:53,916 --> 00:20:55,636 Speaker 3: I think it's a great point in the sense that 468 00:20:56,036 --> 00:20:59,316 Speaker 3: the best case scenario is that a sabbatical that doesn't 469 00:20:59,356 --> 00:21:01,956 Speaker 3: require you to blow your life up, doesn't require you 470 00:21:01,996 --> 00:21:04,476 Speaker 3: to save up for ten years, is possible because your 471 00:21:04,516 --> 00:21:07,476 Speaker 3: company values in you enough to do it. So all 472 00:21:07,556 --> 00:21:10,436 Speaker 3: of us who work at companies where managers are also people, 473 00:21:10,476 --> 00:21:12,796 Speaker 3: so we're taking our people hat off and putting our 474 00:21:12,796 --> 00:21:15,796 Speaker 3: company hat on. So this resilience is just a huge 475 00:21:15,796 --> 00:21:18,796 Speaker 3: piece like having a company be able to withstand what 476 00:21:18,916 --> 00:21:21,996 Speaker 3: they call key person risk. One of the interviewees was 477 00:21:22,036 --> 00:21:24,476 Speaker 3: like the principal and founder of this boarding school in 478 00:21:24,516 --> 00:21:27,076 Speaker 3: South Africa, and you know he'd been there from day one. 479 00:21:27,236 --> 00:21:30,116 Speaker 3: It was ten years in and he stepped aside for 480 00:21:30,196 --> 00:21:33,316 Speaker 3: six months because his spouse was doing a degree in Europe. 481 00:21:33,956 --> 00:21:36,956 Speaker 3: And by stepping away, he was able to see that, like, 482 00:21:36,996 --> 00:21:39,676 Speaker 3: some of the things ran really well in his absence, 483 00:21:39,996 --> 00:21:42,476 Speaker 3: maybe even like a little bit better right the operation side, 484 00:21:43,236 --> 00:21:46,916 Speaker 3: and then other stuff like fundraising fell off an absolute cliff, right, 485 00:21:46,996 --> 00:21:49,676 Speaker 3: And so the organization got to see what it was 486 00:21:49,756 --> 00:21:52,156 Speaker 3: like when he stepped away, and you know, junior folks 487 00:21:52,156 --> 00:21:54,156 Speaker 3: got to step up into roles and have kind of 488 00:21:54,156 --> 00:21:57,196 Speaker 3: career stretch experiences. But also he got to figure out, like, Okay, 489 00:21:57,196 --> 00:21:59,756 Speaker 3: if I get hit by a bus tomorrow, like this 490 00:21:59,756 --> 00:22:02,076 Speaker 3: thing is going to fail and that's not great, and 491 00:22:02,156 --> 00:22:04,876 Speaker 3: so like really developing like the resilience to say, Okay, 492 00:22:04,916 --> 00:22:07,596 Speaker 3: if I do want to transition out, what kind of 493 00:22:07,596 --> 00:22:09,076 Speaker 3: skills do I need to kind of manage? And said 494 00:22:09,236 --> 00:22:12,716 Speaker 3: the organization. So I think tenure and loyalty to the company. 495 00:22:12,836 --> 00:22:14,876 Speaker 3: We talk a lot about people finding meaning at work, 496 00:22:15,076 --> 00:22:16,476 Speaker 3: but at the end of the day, I'm sorry, like 497 00:22:16,836 --> 00:22:19,436 Speaker 3: most companies cannot provide a ton of like meaning and 498 00:22:19,476 --> 00:22:25,196 Speaker 3: purpose and so yeah, yeah, and that's fine, that's fine, 499 00:22:25,356 --> 00:22:27,036 Speaker 3: But I think what the company can do is they 500 00:22:27,116 --> 00:22:29,476 Speaker 3: can give you time to yourself to do the thing 501 00:22:29,516 --> 00:22:31,996 Speaker 3: that's meaningful for you. And I think the impact of 502 00:22:31,996 --> 00:22:34,156 Speaker 3: that is that people have more loyalty to the company. 503 00:22:34,236 --> 00:22:36,596 Speaker 3: One of our interviews was from the US Treasury, where 504 00:22:36,596 --> 00:22:38,836 Speaker 3: they had this long service leave policy where you can 505 00:22:38,836 --> 00:22:41,116 Speaker 3: take six months off and she got to go and 506 00:22:41,196 --> 00:22:44,756 Speaker 3: do like mountaineering and trekking in Latin America, and it 507 00:22:44,796 --> 00:22:47,076 Speaker 3: was long enough to say, I like trekking, I like 508 00:22:47,196 --> 00:22:49,436 Speaker 3: being on vacation, but I also really like the work, 509 00:22:49,476 --> 00:22:51,956 Speaker 3: you know, international development work. She was not planning on 510 00:22:51,996 --> 00:22:53,796 Speaker 3: having a family. She's like, I appreciate the ability to 511 00:22:54,196 --> 00:22:57,516 Speaker 3: step outside of my work for a stretch and become 512 00:22:57,596 --> 00:22:59,876 Speaker 3: kind of appreciative of that work again. And I know 513 00:22:59,916 --> 00:23:01,756 Speaker 3: I can do it every seven to ten years. So 514 00:23:01,796 --> 00:23:04,356 Speaker 3: that kind of like loyalty. And I also think that 515 00:23:04,356 --> 00:23:08,916 Speaker 3: creates authentic company culture. Because there's a financial advisory start 516 00:23:09,196 --> 00:23:12,676 Speaker 3: firm in Seattle called Brighton Jones that has these sabbaticals 517 00:23:12,676 --> 00:23:15,116 Speaker 3: every ten years, and people come back and they're doing 518 00:23:15,156 --> 00:23:18,396 Speaker 3: like a slideshow of their sabbatical, and everyone's excited for 519 00:23:18,436 --> 00:23:20,716 Speaker 3: those folks because they know they get it as well. 520 00:23:20,796 --> 00:23:23,316 Speaker 3: And so the company values you as a whole human 521 00:23:23,356 --> 00:23:26,396 Speaker 3: being and also like they get to celebrate your experience 522 00:23:26,396 --> 00:23:27,876 Speaker 3: because they know they get to take it, which is 523 00:23:27,876 --> 00:23:30,356 Speaker 3: different than someone being like I had a great honeymoon. 524 00:23:30,436 --> 00:23:31,876 Speaker 4: You're like, oh, man, I didn't you know. 525 00:23:33,516 --> 00:23:36,396 Speaker 1: You've also argued that it can help employees like increase 526 00:23:36,476 --> 00:23:39,276 Speaker 1: their innovation over time, and it's not necessarily that their 527 00:23:39,356 --> 00:23:41,996 Speaker 1: skills building, although that happens in some cases with sabbaticals, 528 00:23:41,996 --> 00:23:45,316 Speaker 1: it's more just that like time off builds this innovation. 529 00:23:45,916 --> 00:23:48,836 Speaker 3: Yeah, So one of the interviewees was the CTO of 530 00:23:48,836 --> 00:23:51,756 Speaker 3: a tech company Stepped Away and was engaging this kind 531 00:23:51,756 --> 00:23:54,396 Speaker 3: of identity play I talked about, so, you know, was 532 00:23:54,396 --> 00:23:57,916 Speaker 3: a developer in college but had really not played around 533 00:23:57,916 --> 00:24:00,516 Speaker 3: with like mobile app development, and so it was like 534 00:24:00,556 --> 00:24:03,636 Speaker 3: futzing around and created this app to help text to 535 00:24:03,716 --> 00:24:06,996 Speaker 3: speech folks, right, And so that turned into being a 536 00:24:07,036 --> 00:24:09,956 Speaker 3: company that he started started from just wanting to learn 537 00:24:09,996 --> 00:24:14,236 Speaker 3: and play. I think this like play muscle, is really underutilized, 538 00:24:14,396 --> 00:24:16,276 Speaker 3: and I think it's really important to have folks like 539 00:24:16,316 --> 00:24:19,676 Speaker 3: step away and regenerate their ability to solve problems creatively 540 00:24:20,036 --> 00:24:22,196 Speaker 3: because you don't know what's coming around the corner. As 541 00:24:22,236 --> 00:24:25,796 Speaker 3: technology kind of accelerates, so you have to be able 542 00:24:25,836 --> 00:24:27,356 Speaker 3: to see outside of the box. 543 00:24:27,236 --> 00:24:29,236 Speaker 1: And that's helpful for companies when people come back to 544 00:24:29,356 --> 00:24:30,036 Speaker 1: I soon totally. 545 00:24:30,116 --> 00:24:30,316 Speaker 4: Yeah. 546 00:24:30,316 --> 00:24:32,836 Speaker 3: I mean you have to solve problems inside of companies, right, 547 00:24:33,276 --> 00:24:34,556 Speaker 3: And so it's starting. 548 00:24:34,276 --> 00:24:37,396 Speaker 1: To seem obvious that sabbaticals are a good idea for workers, 549 00:24:37,436 --> 00:24:39,596 Speaker 1: They're a good idea for companies, probably a good idea 550 00:24:39,636 --> 00:24:44,276 Speaker 1: for like society and us as people, right right, right, 551 00:24:46,036 --> 00:24:49,636 Speaker 1: But only five percent of non academic companies are doing this, 552 00:24:50,316 --> 00:24:52,996 Speaker 1: and so DJ this is now your life's mission, your 553 00:24:53,116 --> 00:24:55,796 Speaker 1: dream to make sabbaticals more equitable. But to do that, 554 00:24:55,836 --> 00:24:58,116 Speaker 1: we have to overcome all the barriers that we and 555 00:24:58,116 --> 00:25:00,716 Speaker 1: our employers feel when it comes to giving us a sabbatical. 556 00:25:01,076 --> 00:25:03,476 Speaker 1: And we're going to get to those barriers when we 557 00:25:03,516 --> 00:25:06,636 Speaker 1: come back from the break. The Happiness Lab Live from 558 00:25:06,676 --> 00:25:16,996 Speaker 1: south By Southwest will be right back. Sabbaticals seemed like 559 00:25:16,996 --> 00:25:18,716 Speaker 1: a good idea, But let's go through some of the 560 00:25:18,756 --> 00:25:21,636 Speaker 1: worries that people have when considering a sabbatical or just 561 00:25:21,676 --> 00:25:24,116 Speaker 1: like the actual barriers that come up when you like 562 00:25:24,276 --> 00:25:26,956 Speaker 1: detonate your life for six months. In some ways, one 563 00:25:26,956 --> 00:25:29,596 Speaker 1: of these barriers is the optics. 564 00:25:30,036 --> 00:25:30,236 Speaker 4: Right. 565 00:25:30,276 --> 00:25:32,356 Speaker 1: I think people are really worried about what this is 566 00:25:32,356 --> 00:25:35,676 Speaker 1: going to look like. Is that something that you experienced When. 567 00:25:35,556 --> 00:25:37,876 Speaker 3: I first thought about what the barriers were, you know, 568 00:25:37,916 --> 00:25:41,196 Speaker 3: around seven years ago, optics was one of the biggest ones, right, 569 00:25:41,236 --> 00:25:43,076 Speaker 3: So what are people going to think about the fact 570 00:25:43,116 --> 00:25:46,236 Speaker 3: you took time off? That has changed significantly since then. 571 00:25:46,356 --> 00:25:49,396 Speaker 3: I think one of the enabling features is that LinkedIn 572 00:25:49,436 --> 00:25:52,316 Speaker 3: introduced a career breaks role that you could put in, 573 00:25:52,636 --> 00:25:55,156 Speaker 3: which is tremendous. So like hundreds of thousands of people 574 00:25:55,276 --> 00:25:57,836 Speaker 3: now like proudly kind of talk about their career breaks. 575 00:25:58,476 --> 00:26:00,796 Speaker 3: The other thing is just like this story about a 576 00:26:00,836 --> 00:26:04,316 Speaker 3: successful business and a successful life is also changing. So 577 00:26:04,356 --> 00:26:07,276 Speaker 3: people are starting to hear in addition to the CEOs 578 00:26:07,316 --> 00:26:10,196 Speaker 3: running multiple companies sleeping under the dea thing, they're starting 579 00:26:10,236 --> 00:26:12,876 Speaker 3: to realize that folks like Steve Jobs right was studying 580 00:26:12,916 --> 00:26:15,276 Speaker 3: calligraphy for a year, and you have the CEO of 581 00:26:15,316 --> 00:26:18,556 Speaker 3: Impossible Foods figured out his company on sabbatical, Like, there's 582 00:26:18,556 --> 00:26:20,596 Speaker 3: actually like a lot of roles for you to kind 583 00:26:20,596 --> 00:26:22,836 Speaker 3: of find that creative energy when you step away. The 584 00:26:22,876 --> 00:26:24,956 Speaker 3: other thing I think about if you're interviewing for a 585 00:26:25,036 --> 00:26:27,236 Speaker 3: job and you tell them that you took a career 586 00:26:27,276 --> 00:26:30,196 Speaker 3: break and they disqualify you for the position. That's a 587 00:26:30,236 --> 00:26:32,236 Speaker 3: great sign that maybe you didn't want to work at 588 00:26:32,236 --> 00:26:34,516 Speaker 3: that company. It's like a kind of a revealed preference. 589 00:26:36,276 --> 00:26:40,556 Speaker 3: And also I've also found that in interviews, people want 590 00:26:40,556 --> 00:26:42,876 Speaker 3: to talk of, oh, like you traveled for six months, 591 00:26:42,916 --> 00:26:44,476 Speaker 3: Like what did you do? What was your favorite Like 592 00:26:44,516 --> 00:26:47,276 Speaker 3: that makes you an interesting person, and it also shows 593 00:26:47,276 --> 00:26:49,196 Speaker 3: that you had the courage and self confidence, like to 594 00:26:49,316 --> 00:26:51,836 Speaker 3: take time off and do something for yourself, which I 595 00:26:51,876 --> 00:26:53,556 Speaker 3: think the majority of people are going to be like, 596 00:26:53,596 --> 00:26:55,956 Speaker 3: that's awesome, Like I want this person on the team. 597 00:26:56,236 --> 00:26:57,996 Speaker 1: So it seems like the story is changing, but it 598 00:26:57,996 --> 00:27:00,756 Speaker 1: also seems like we need to change the story in 599 00:27:00,796 --> 00:27:02,556 Speaker 1: our own heads. Like part of the problem of optics 600 00:27:02,556 --> 00:27:04,636 Speaker 1: seems like it's what we think other people are going 601 00:27:04,676 --> 00:27:07,036 Speaker 1: to judge us about, but it also is a lot 602 00:27:07,076 --> 00:27:08,756 Speaker 1: about what we're judging ourselves about too. 603 00:27:09,156 --> 00:27:09,356 Speaker 4: Yeah. 604 00:27:09,356 --> 00:27:12,316 Speaker 3: I did a study of my Harvard Business School classmates 605 00:27:12,356 --> 00:27:15,436 Speaker 3: ten years out, and ninety percent of people were concerned 606 00:27:15,436 --> 00:27:17,876 Speaker 3: about how a career break would look, and less than 607 00:27:17,916 --> 00:27:20,436 Speaker 3: five percent of people actually cared whether or not someone 608 00:27:20,436 --> 00:27:23,236 Speaker 3: took a career break. So it's this weird dynamic where 609 00:27:23,316 --> 00:27:26,596 Speaker 3: you assume that people might take you less seriously, but 610 00:27:26,636 --> 00:27:28,636 Speaker 3: it's just not the case. And the way to kind 611 00:27:28,636 --> 00:27:31,596 Speaker 3: of solve that in our research, we identify this concept 612 00:27:31,716 --> 00:27:35,916 Speaker 3: called exemplars, which is fancy for examples, So like, find 613 00:27:35,956 --> 00:27:37,956 Speaker 3: an example in your life, someone that looks like you, 614 00:27:38,036 --> 00:27:40,316 Speaker 3: someone that has a similar job to you, who has 615 00:27:40,356 --> 00:27:43,356 Speaker 3: taken this time off so you can actually see for yourself, like, oh, 616 00:27:43,396 --> 00:27:44,756 Speaker 3: I'll be fine on the other side. 617 00:27:44,916 --> 00:27:46,596 Speaker 1: I love that example because it seems like part of 618 00:27:46,636 --> 00:27:48,916 Speaker 1: the problem with sabbaticals is like for many people, this 619 00:27:49,036 --> 00:27:51,316 Speaker 1: is just going to be the first time you're letting 620 00:27:51,356 --> 00:27:54,996 Speaker 1: yourself do something that's not like work for any any 621 00:27:54,996 --> 00:27:56,116 Speaker 1: stretch of time whatsoever. 622 00:27:56,556 --> 00:27:59,196 Speaker 4: It's very uncomfortable. It's not a natural feeling. 623 00:27:59,196 --> 00:28:01,676 Speaker 3: It kind of creates a vacuum, right because you had 624 00:28:01,676 --> 00:28:04,596 Speaker 3: all these responsibilities and even though you want to not 625 00:28:04,676 --> 00:28:06,636 Speaker 3: be checking email, when all of a sudden you're cut 626 00:28:06,636 --> 00:28:09,956 Speaker 3: off from email and your calendar, Like, the first part 627 00:28:09,956 --> 00:28:12,276 Speaker 3: of sabbaticals can be difficult, and that's one part I 628 00:28:12,276 --> 00:28:15,596 Speaker 3: think folks don't get, like, you're on sabbatical must be amazing, 629 00:28:15,676 --> 00:28:18,276 Speaker 3: and you're actually like beating yourself up about leaving not 630 00:28:18,356 --> 00:28:20,556 Speaker 3: knowing what you're going to do next, and so it 631 00:28:20,636 --> 00:28:24,756 Speaker 3: is like an identity transformation. And in order to transform yourself, 632 00:28:24,756 --> 00:28:26,796 Speaker 3: you've got to really do some you know, like some 633 00:28:26,916 --> 00:28:29,116 Speaker 3: thinking and some breaking apart of who you are. 634 00:28:29,756 --> 00:28:33,276 Speaker 1: Okay, So that's the optics, like internally and externally. Another 635 00:28:33,556 --> 00:28:38,596 Speaker 1: big one, just practically is responsibility. Like we have professional responsibilities, 636 00:28:38,636 --> 00:28:43,156 Speaker 1: personal responsibilities, we're parents. There's like logistical challenges. How did 637 00:28:43,156 --> 00:28:45,556 Speaker 1: you navigate this stuff? And what are some suggestions? 638 00:28:46,356 --> 00:28:49,516 Speaker 3: So I think that almost no one can throw all 639 00:28:49,556 --> 00:28:52,716 Speaker 3: of their responsibilities off tomorrow, right, And so if you 640 00:28:52,796 --> 00:28:55,756 Speaker 3: treat it like an emergency root canal, like that's difficult. 641 00:28:56,116 --> 00:28:58,476 Speaker 3: If you say, what is everyone here in this room 642 00:28:58,556 --> 00:29:01,836 Speaker 3: doing in twenty thirty one, Like, no one has any idea, right. 643 00:29:01,876 --> 00:29:03,676 Speaker 3: So if you say, like, in twenty thirty one, I'm 644 00:29:03,716 --> 00:29:06,636 Speaker 3: taking six months off and you work towards that, man, 645 00:29:06,676 --> 00:29:07,756 Speaker 3: twenty thirty one's coming up. 646 00:29:07,796 --> 00:29:10,276 Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, twenty thirty one is not very far away, 647 00:29:10,316 --> 00:29:11,876 Speaker 1: but it's gonna be awesome for the folks in this room, 648 00:29:11,876 --> 00:29:14,636 Speaker 1: because everybody started nodding when you said that twenty thirty one. Right. 649 00:29:14,796 --> 00:29:16,516 Speaker 3: So if you can set some time in the future 650 00:29:16,556 --> 00:29:18,996 Speaker 3: and say, like I'm committing to take six months off. 651 00:29:19,436 --> 00:29:21,236 Speaker 3: Then all of a sudden, you can save up for it, 652 00:29:21,316 --> 00:29:23,716 Speaker 3: you can signpost it with your employers, and it's not 653 00:29:23,756 --> 00:29:25,236 Speaker 3: a big deal. This is just part of who I am. 654 00:29:25,356 --> 00:29:27,876 Speaker 3: I take six months off six years from now. The 655 00:29:27,996 --> 00:29:30,516 Speaker 3: other thing is you hear a lot about responsibilities. I 656 00:29:30,556 --> 00:29:32,476 Speaker 3: have kids, like they have, like, how am I I'm 657 00:29:32,476 --> 00:29:33,916 Speaker 3: going to pull them out of school to put them 658 00:29:33,956 --> 00:29:35,036 Speaker 3: back in school. 659 00:29:35,116 --> 00:29:35,956 Speaker 4: Time and time again. 660 00:29:36,116 --> 00:29:40,036 Speaker 3: It's it's difficult, But the people who have children who 661 00:29:40,036 --> 00:29:43,356 Speaker 3: take sabbatical have the most inspiring stories, hands down, because 662 00:29:43,396 --> 00:29:45,996 Speaker 3: they'll say stuff like I just had begun to think 663 00:29:45,996 --> 00:29:48,636 Speaker 3: about my kids as a set of responsibilities and tasks 664 00:29:48,676 --> 00:29:50,996 Speaker 3: like take them here, pick them up from here. When 665 00:29:50,996 --> 00:29:54,716 Speaker 3: in actuality, what's happening is people are showing their kids 666 00:29:55,116 --> 00:29:58,156 Speaker 3: what is astronomy? Oh, you're seeing the stars from Patagonia, 667 00:29:58,636 --> 00:30:00,636 Speaker 3: seeing them and getting excited about that. 668 00:30:00,756 --> 00:30:02,116 Speaker 4: Like what is zoology? 669 00:30:02,476 --> 00:30:04,516 Speaker 3: And you're going to the Serengeti and you're seeing like 670 00:30:04,596 --> 00:30:05,476 Speaker 3: animals up close? 671 00:30:05,636 --> 00:30:06,596 Speaker 4: What is geology? 672 00:30:06,636 --> 00:30:09,676 Speaker 3: You're in like the Grand Canyon, And so it enables 673 00:30:09,676 --> 00:30:11,836 Speaker 3: you to see the world through their eyes and actually 674 00:30:11,876 --> 00:30:13,676 Speaker 3: give them an experience that will sit with them for 675 00:30:13,716 --> 00:30:16,676 Speaker 3: their entire life. There's a movie called Blink that we saw. 676 00:30:16,756 --> 00:30:18,356 Speaker 3: I don't know if you've seen it, but distributed by 677 00:30:18,436 --> 00:30:21,356 Speaker 3: nat Geo, and it's this family in Quebec where they 678 00:30:21,436 --> 00:30:23,116 Speaker 3: have I think three or four kids that have this 679 00:30:23,196 --> 00:30:26,876 Speaker 3: kind of ocular degeneration disease, and so they only have 680 00:30:26,956 --> 00:30:28,556 Speaker 3: a certain amount of time that their kids are going 681 00:30:28,596 --> 00:30:30,516 Speaker 3: to be able to see the world, and so they 682 00:30:30,556 --> 00:30:33,116 Speaker 3: decided to take a year off so the kids could 683 00:30:33,196 --> 00:30:36,076 Speaker 3: like absorb as many images about the world as possible. 684 00:30:36,476 --> 00:30:38,956 Speaker 3: So I think about that like taking it from a 685 00:30:39,036 --> 00:30:41,556 Speaker 3: responsibility that you have to take care of to a 686 00:30:41,596 --> 00:30:45,036 Speaker 3: responsibility to allow your kids, or you and your spouse 687 00:30:45,316 --> 00:30:47,916 Speaker 3: or yourself to get to experience the world in a 688 00:30:47,916 --> 00:30:49,996 Speaker 3: different way than our just routine life. 689 00:30:50,196 --> 00:30:52,476 Speaker 1: I also think that it's probably really great for parents 690 00:30:52,516 --> 00:30:55,316 Speaker 1: to show kids and to model like be that exemplar 691 00:30:55,436 --> 00:30:58,236 Speaker 1: for taking some time off and also just like not 692 00:30:58,356 --> 00:31:00,356 Speaker 1: be so burned out around their kids. Like I do 693 00:31:00,396 --> 00:31:02,676 Speaker 1: worry with some of like my adult friends with kids, 694 00:31:02,716 --> 00:31:04,516 Speaker 1: that those are kids that have only ever seen their 695 00:31:04,556 --> 00:31:06,836 Speaker 1: parents super stressed out, and I feel like it must 696 00:31:06,876 --> 00:31:09,556 Speaker 1: just be rejuvenating for kids to see parents it's taking 697 00:31:09,556 --> 00:31:10,196 Speaker 1: time off too. 698 00:31:10,676 --> 00:31:13,716 Speaker 3: Absolutely, you have to model this behavior right And I 699 00:31:13,756 --> 00:31:16,036 Speaker 3: actually have two good friends who are on sabbatical and 700 00:31:16,116 --> 00:31:18,876 Speaker 3: Kenya right now, and just seeing them kind of go 701 00:31:18,996 --> 00:31:22,436 Speaker 3: from having groceries delivered, meals delivered, like no time to 702 00:31:22,476 --> 00:31:25,476 Speaker 3: do anything, into like teaching their kids how to ride bikes. 703 00:31:25,556 --> 00:31:28,316 Speaker 3: You know, it's just it's really inspiring and life is 704 00:31:28,356 --> 00:31:30,916 Speaker 3: too short. Right Again, a silver lining of the pandemic 705 00:31:30,956 --> 00:31:33,876 Speaker 3: for many people is that you realize that life is 706 00:31:33,916 --> 00:31:36,596 Speaker 3: fragile and it's short, and you just can't bet on 707 00:31:36,796 --> 00:31:39,236 Speaker 3: twenty thirty one even who knows, so maybe she said 708 00:31:39,236 --> 00:31:40,076 Speaker 3: it to twenty twenty nine. 709 00:31:40,156 --> 00:31:43,516 Speaker 1: When you take your sabbatical, Yeah, we gotta get it 710 00:31:43,516 --> 00:31:45,996 Speaker 1: in as soon as possible. Okay, So we've talked about optics, 711 00:31:46,036 --> 00:31:48,996 Speaker 1: We've talked about responsibility. I think the elephant in the 712 00:31:49,036 --> 00:31:53,316 Speaker 1: room when it comes to sabbaticals is cost right, just financially, 713 00:31:53,596 --> 00:31:55,636 Speaker 1: I think if you survey most people, my guess is 714 00:31:55,676 --> 00:31:57,636 Speaker 1: most people are going to say that sounds awesome, but 715 00:31:57,676 --> 00:32:00,116 Speaker 1: it's just completely out of reach. How do we solve 716 00:32:00,116 --> 00:32:00,396 Speaker 1: for this? 717 00:32:01,156 --> 00:32:04,156 Speaker 3: So, I mean, the first and obvious answer is that 718 00:32:04,236 --> 00:32:07,716 Speaker 3: if this is supported by companies countries like our culture, 719 00:32:07,836 --> 00:32:10,156 Speaker 3: then it's not a problem at all, and if you 720 00:32:10,196 --> 00:32:13,276 Speaker 3: can plan it in advance, right. So a couple people 721 00:32:13,316 --> 00:32:16,796 Speaker 3: from the study were teachers. They had taken a sabbatical 722 00:32:17,116 --> 00:32:20,076 Speaker 3: right before they got married and backpacked around around the world, 723 00:32:20,236 --> 00:32:21,636 Speaker 3: and so it's like, we want to do this when 724 00:32:21,676 --> 00:32:23,836 Speaker 3: our kids are a certain age. So they saved up 725 00:32:23,876 --> 00:32:25,956 Speaker 3: for ten years because it was important to them, and 726 00:32:25,996 --> 00:32:28,516 Speaker 3: they did it and it turned out, actually they drove 727 00:32:28,556 --> 00:32:31,516 Speaker 3: a land rover across to the tip of South America 728 00:32:31,516 --> 00:32:34,476 Speaker 3: from Arizona, and it turned out that there was so 729 00:32:34,556 --> 00:32:37,116 Speaker 3: much maintenance with the land rover that the guy got 730 00:32:37,196 --> 00:32:38,636 Speaker 3: really good at it. And he came back and he 731 00:32:38,716 --> 00:32:40,716 Speaker 3: was like, I actually want to start a land rover business. 732 00:32:41,236 --> 00:32:44,356 Speaker 3: So now he like refurbishes land rovers and takes people 733 00:32:44,356 --> 00:32:46,636 Speaker 3: on tours. But yeah, so if you're thinking about it 734 00:32:46,716 --> 00:32:49,636 Speaker 3: as something that has to happen tomorrow, very few people 735 00:32:49,636 --> 00:32:52,036 Speaker 3: can afford it. If you're planning it out and saying 736 00:32:52,076 --> 00:32:53,876 Speaker 3: this is important to me, I'm going to save five 737 00:32:53,876 --> 00:32:56,356 Speaker 3: percent a year, then it's not that big of a deal. 738 00:32:57,036 --> 00:32:59,556 Speaker 3: The other thing I would say is that I've heard 739 00:32:59,556 --> 00:33:02,316 Speaker 3: this over and over again, where when you're at a company, 740 00:33:02,476 --> 00:33:03,876 Speaker 3: your raises are kind. 741 00:33:03,716 --> 00:33:04,476 Speaker 4: Of on a schedule. 742 00:33:04,476 --> 00:33:06,196 Speaker 3: It's like you get a five percent raise or here's 743 00:33:06,196 --> 00:33:08,876 Speaker 3: what you're eligible for. When you switch jobs, you actually 744 00:33:08,916 --> 00:33:11,716 Speaker 3: get paid a lot more because you're being valued at 745 00:33:11,716 --> 00:33:14,676 Speaker 3: the market rate for your skills. And so lots of 746 00:33:14,716 --> 00:33:16,716 Speaker 3: folks are saying, I quit my job, they wouldn't give 747 00:33:16,716 --> 00:33:19,116 Speaker 3: me a sabbatical. I joined another company and I got 748 00:33:19,116 --> 00:33:22,596 Speaker 3: a raise, so that essentially made the sabbatical free. So 749 00:33:22,756 --> 00:33:25,116 Speaker 3: your mileage may vary, but that's a dynamic that we 750 00:33:25,196 --> 00:33:27,236 Speaker 3: kind of get trapped in as we've been at a 751 00:33:27,236 --> 00:33:28,196 Speaker 3: company for a long time. 752 00:33:28,476 --> 00:33:31,556 Speaker 1: You've also noted that it's also just worth asking because 753 00:33:31,596 --> 00:33:33,676 Speaker 1: lots of companies have policies that are like this that 754 00:33:33,796 --> 00:33:35,676 Speaker 1: might be hidden or not talked about too. 755 00:33:35,796 --> 00:33:38,436 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's these secret policies. I think that if you 756 00:33:38,476 --> 00:33:39,996 Speaker 3: want to do it and you're kind of set on it, 757 00:33:40,036 --> 00:33:42,076 Speaker 3: and you're like, listen, I'm either leaving or they're giving 758 00:33:42,076 --> 00:33:44,556 Speaker 3: me a sabbatical. Like at that point, you're going to leave, 759 00:33:44,876 --> 00:33:47,716 Speaker 3: and so you can talk frankly with your manager about this. 760 00:33:47,876 --> 00:33:50,036 Speaker 3: And I've seen this many times where someone says, all right, 761 00:33:50,516 --> 00:33:52,716 Speaker 3: let's work this thing out. Can we wait a year 762 00:33:52,836 --> 00:33:55,596 Speaker 3: so we can prep the team Okay, cool, how about 763 00:33:55,636 --> 00:33:57,276 Speaker 3: like we're not going to give you full pay, but 764 00:33:57,316 --> 00:33:59,756 Speaker 3: how about partial pay or how about just retaining benefits? 765 00:34:00,116 --> 00:34:01,796 Speaker 3: And what we find is that most people if you 766 00:34:01,916 --> 00:34:05,436 Speaker 3: just retain benefits, because that's the scary thing, they can 767 00:34:05,476 --> 00:34:08,036 Speaker 3: save up for it. And so again like how far 768 00:34:08,076 --> 00:34:10,396 Speaker 3: in advance are you planning on doing it? But I 769 00:34:10,396 --> 00:34:12,836 Speaker 3: would talk to people who aren't your manager first and 770 00:34:12,876 --> 00:34:15,076 Speaker 3: try to find an exemplar, and then you can kind 771 00:34:15,076 --> 00:34:17,276 Speaker 3: of broach that subject. And one of the reasons why 772 00:34:17,356 --> 00:34:19,596 Speaker 3: we have like a like a kind of a support 773 00:34:19,596 --> 00:34:21,676 Speaker 3: group on Facebook and LinkedIn where you can ask other 774 00:34:21,716 --> 00:34:24,796 Speaker 3: people what their best practices were in doing it. You 775 00:34:24,796 --> 00:34:26,956 Speaker 3: can find people who maybe worked in your industry or 776 00:34:26,956 --> 00:34:28,236 Speaker 3: in your company who have taken it. 777 00:34:28,276 --> 00:34:28,956 Speaker 4: So that's helpful. 778 00:34:29,116 --> 00:34:31,316 Speaker 1: Okay, So this is how kind of personally we can 779 00:34:31,356 --> 00:34:33,836 Speaker 1: sort of fight some of the barriers. Let's talk about 780 00:34:33,876 --> 00:34:36,916 Speaker 1: maybe some of the structural barriers. Hopefully there are folks 781 00:34:36,916 --> 00:34:39,636 Speaker 1: in the room who are themselves employers, maybe big CEOs 782 00:34:39,636 --> 00:34:41,876 Speaker 1: of companies who are hearing about these benefits and want 783 00:34:41,916 --> 00:34:44,356 Speaker 1: to start offering sabbatical policies and want to develop a 784 00:34:44,356 --> 00:34:47,036 Speaker 1: company policy that can help folks do this. What do 785 00:34:47,076 --> 00:34:49,156 Speaker 1: employers actually need to make sabbaticals a thing. 786 00:34:49,716 --> 00:34:52,436 Speaker 3: So in order to make it equitable for folks, it's 787 00:34:52,476 --> 00:34:55,556 Speaker 3: got to have to be paid, right, So allow people 788 00:34:55,636 --> 00:34:57,076 Speaker 3: to be able to take it and not take a 789 00:34:57,116 --> 00:35:00,676 Speaker 3: huge financial hit. I think in order to make it successful, Like, 790 00:35:00,716 --> 00:35:02,556 Speaker 3: the worst thing that can happen is you roll out 791 00:35:02,556 --> 00:35:06,076 Speaker 3: a sabbatical policy and it's too short or you don't 792 00:35:06,156 --> 00:35:09,076 Speaker 3: allow your employees to disconnect, and then you've had people 793 00:35:09,116 --> 00:35:10,956 Speaker 3: who are gone from the workplace and then also haven't 794 00:35:10,956 --> 00:35:15,236 Speaker 3: gotten the benefits. And so give folks enough time ideally months. 795 00:35:15,676 --> 00:35:17,156 Speaker 3: You know, what we found in the research is that 796 00:35:17,156 --> 00:35:18,916 Speaker 3: it takes about six to eight weeks for you to 797 00:35:18,996 --> 00:35:22,236 Speaker 3: really like become yourself again. Think about that, you take 798 00:35:22,236 --> 00:35:25,156 Speaker 3: a two week vacation up to two months to really 799 00:35:25,236 --> 00:35:27,796 Speaker 3: feel like, oh, I'm me, I'm not just this collection 800 00:35:27,836 --> 00:35:31,076 Speaker 3: of jobs and responsibilities. So give them enough time and 801 00:35:31,676 --> 00:35:36,876 Speaker 3: ensure disconnection. So best practice disable the email auto respond 802 00:35:36,916 --> 00:35:39,356 Speaker 3: You'd be surprised if you have an auto response that says, 803 00:35:39,356 --> 00:35:42,196 Speaker 3: I'm coming back to the office in September. I'm deleting 804 00:35:42,196 --> 00:35:45,316 Speaker 3: this entire inbox like emailing you in September. Folks will 805 00:35:45,356 --> 00:35:47,476 Speaker 3: just email you in September. It's not the end of 806 00:35:47,476 --> 00:35:50,796 Speaker 3: the world. So disconnection, I think duration and support. 807 00:35:50,836 --> 00:35:52,596 Speaker 1: So you've also talked about some ways that companies can 808 00:35:52,596 --> 00:35:54,476 Speaker 1: make this the norm or make this scene is like 809 00:35:54,676 --> 00:35:56,196 Speaker 1: not a bad thing to do. What are some ways 810 00:35:56,236 --> 00:35:57,076 Speaker 1: that companies can do that? 811 00:35:57,356 --> 00:36:00,116 Speaker 3: Yeah, So the norm that exists is this so called 812 00:36:00,156 --> 00:36:03,716 Speaker 3: work devotion norm where people are kind of like feel 813 00:36:03,756 --> 00:36:05,436 Speaker 3: like they have to be devoted to work. They can't 814 00:36:05,436 --> 00:36:08,076 Speaker 3: be seen as taking time off. This is why things 815 00:36:08,156 --> 00:36:11,716 Speaker 3: like unlimited vacation, which is a total boondoggle, like doesn't 816 00:36:11,716 --> 00:36:14,156 Speaker 3: work because you don't see people taking time off and 817 00:36:14,196 --> 00:36:15,796 Speaker 3: so then you don't feel like you can take it. 818 00:36:16,236 --> 00:36:18,076 Speaker 3: So I think the first thing that leaders can do 819 00:36:18,156 --> 00:36:20,796 Speaker 3: is take the breaks themselves to kind of model this. 820 00:36:20,916 --> 00:36:23,596 Speaker 3: So Sweden also has man Sweden's getting a lot of 821 00:36:23,596 --> 00:36:26,836 Speaker 3: love this episode. Sweden also has like kind of world 822 00:36:26,916 --> 00:36:29,716 Speaker 3: leading paternity leave, and what they found is that like, 823 00:36:29,756 --> 00:36:32,596 Speaker 3: even though you get paid paternity leave, fathers wouldn't take 824 00:36:32,596 --> 00:36:34,676 Speaker 3: it unless their bosses took it. You've got to model 825 00:36:34,676 --> 00:36:37,356 Speaker 3: that behavior, you've got to celebrate it inside the company 826 00:36:37,356 --> 00:36:38,396 Speaker 3: in order for folks to take it. 827 00:36:38,876 --> 00:36:41,596 Speaker 1: What are some examples of positive impacts on organizations for 828 00:36:41,636 --> 00:36:43,836 Speaker 1: their leaders, like is it just the people that talk 829 00:36:43,916 --> 00:36:45,596 Speaker 1: the benefit from this or do you also see like 830 00:36:45,676 --> 00:36:47,916 Speaker 1: frontline workers taking these things and benefiting. 831 00:36:48,276 --> 00:36:50,756 Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's a lot more rare to have folks 832 00:36:50,796 --> 00:36:53,436 Speaker 3: across the spectrum of the organization just because of the 833 00:36:53,476 --> 00:36:56,476 Speaker 3: financial responsibilities and things like that. So I talked to 834 00:36:56,516 --> 00:36:59,596 Speaker 3: this startup called Skylight. At the beginning stages of a startup, 835 00:36:59,596 --> 00:37:01,876 Speaker 3: if you've ever worked for one or started one, no 836 00:37:01,876 --> 00:37:04,396 Speaker 3: one's taking a sabbatical at the beginning. But if you 837 00:37:04,396 --> 00:37:06,316 Speaker 3: can get through the first like four or five years, 838 00:37:06,636 --> 00:37:09,516 Speaker 3: then you can make some space. And so the CEO, Michael, 839 00:37:09,556 --> 00:37:12,436 Speaker 3: their first employee, was just really burnt out, and so 840 00:37:12,956 --> 00:37:15,716 Speaker 3: allowed her to take two months off, come back and 841 00:37:15,756 --> 00:37:18,196 Speaker 3: then during that time it's a little bit cheating on 842 00:37:18,196 --> 00:37:20,876 Speaker 3: the sabbatical, but she had investigated a bunch of AI 843 00:37:20,996 --> 00:37:23,876 Speaker 3: tools and like got trained up, and so she was 844 00:37:23,916 --> 00:37:26,476 Speaker 3: able to bring that back, which was integrated into the 845 00:37:26,476 --> 00:37:29,196 Speaker 3: product and actually made it quite successful and kind of 846 00:37:29,276 --> 00:37:32,276 Speaker 3: changed the trajectory of it. The other example that I 847 00:37:32,356 --> 00:37:35,316 Speaker 3: like to tell is there's a CEO, Cheryl Johnson, of 848 00:37:35,316 --> 00:37:38,996 Speaker 3: this organization in Detroit. So, like the Coalition to End homelessness, 849 00:37:39,716 --> 00:37:43,956 Speaker 3: and there's funders that fund nonprofits in places like Detroit, 850 00:37:44,076 --> 00:37:47,956 Speaker 3: La San Francisco, Boston. They convinced the boards of nonprofits 851 00:37:47,996 --> 00:37:50,196 Speaker 3: to allow their leaders and their employees to take time 852 00:37:50,236 --> 00:37:53,036 Speaker 3: off and they fund it, right, And so the point 853 00:37:53,076 --> 00:37:55,996 Speaker 3: of that again to prevent this key person risk at 854 00:37:56,036 --> 00:37:59,676 Speaker 3: a nonprofit where the leaders super important, charismatic. And so 855 00:37:59,836 --> 00:38:02,716 Speaker 3: they're like convincing these boards to let these nonprofit employees 856 00:38:02,796 --> 00:38:06,436 Speaker 3: leave because like burnout started in the care sector, right, 857 00:38:06,556 --> 00:38:10,196 Speaker 3: I'm onlike nurses, healthcare workers, nonprofit leaders. If you really 858 00:38:10,236 --> 00:38:13,036 Speaker 3: care about your job, you don't want to leave it 859 00:38:13,036 --> 00:38:15,036 Speaker 3: because you feel like you're letting people down. And so 860 00:38:15,236 --> 00:38:17,196 Speaker 3: I think in the nonprofit industry, actually you see that 861 00:38:17,236 --> 00:38:17,796 Speaker 3: a lot as well. 862 00:38:18,196 --> 00:38:20,756 Speaker 1: You've also seen some of these creative solutions that some 863 00:38:21,076 --> 00:38:22,956 Speaker 1: like jobs have come up with. You talked about this 864 00:38:22,996 --> 00:38:25,196 Speaker 1: idea of a prebatical, which I think is actually a 865 00:38:25,236 --> 00:38:26,356 Speaker 1: kind of clever one. What's that? 866 00:38:26,476 --> 00:38:29,876 Speaker 3: Yeah, So this came from the great resignation. Everyone is like, 867 00:38:29,956 --> 00:38:32,916 Speaker 3: I quit my job, It's amazing, and then a lot 868 00:38:32,916 --> 00:38:36,476 Speaker 3: of people got really nice offers that other companies and 869 00:38:36,516 --> 00:38:38,316 Speaker 3: other jobs, and so like, actually, I'm just going to 870 00:38:38,356 --> 00:38:41,076 Speaker 3: start this other job, And I think it's kind of foolish. 871 00:38:41,116 --> 00:38:43,476 Speaker 3: I think that you're burnout from a job is going 872 00:38:43,516 --> 00:38:45,556 Speaker 3: to like end just because you joined another job. 873 00:38:45,636 --> 00:38:47,276 Speaker 1: Yes, you take your box and by the time you 874 00:38:47,276 --> 00:38:48,916 Speaker 1: get to the car, the burnout's over it. 875 00:38:48,956 --> 00:38:51,316 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, you're running on adrenaline, right, so you're bringing 876 00:38:51,356 --> 00:38:54,436 Speaker 3: like the adrenaline over. But I think companies actually benefit 877 00:38:54,516 --> 00:38:56,516 Speaker 3: from ensuring that people take time off. 878 00:38:56,956 --> 00:38:58,636 Speaker 4: And the easiest. 879 00:38:58,196 --> 00:39:01,236 Speaker 3: Sabbatical to take is if, like, you have a job 880 00:39:01,316 --> 00:39:03,036 Speaker 3: so I teach at a business school, Like you get 881 00:39:03,076 --> 00:39:04,756 Speaker 3: a job at a consulting firm, and you can push 882 00:39:04,796 --> 00:39:07,116 Speaker 3: your offer so you know that you have a job 883 00:39:07,196 --> 00:39:08,636 Speaker 3: coming out of it and you don't have to worry 884 00:39:08,676 --> 00:39:11,756 Speaker 3: about money. And so I think like allowing folks to 885 00:39:11,836 --> 00:39:14,356 Speaker 3: make sure they come into your organization not burned out, 886 00:39:14,476 --> 00:39:17,516 Speaker 3: excited to hit the ground running is a great one, 887 00:39:17,916 --> 00:39:18,236 Speaker 3: all right. 888 00:39:18,276 --> 00:39:20,916 Speaker 1: So let's say somebody's listening right now and they're convinced 889 00:39:20,996 --> 00:39:23,636 Speaker 1: it's time, they're ready to overcome all these barriers. The 890 00:39:23,676 --> 00:39:26,076 Speaker 1: extended break is what they want to do. What are 891 00:39:26,116 --> 00:39:29,356 Speaker 1: some practices for the sabbatical curious who are ready to 892 00:39:29,396 --> 00:39:30,916 Speaker 1: hit go on actually taking a break. 893 00:39:32,076 --> 00:39:33,476 Speaker 3: So I think the first thing is you got to 894 00:39:33,476 --> 00:39:35,716 Speaker 3: ask around, so try to find an exemplar. I think 895 00:39:35,756 --> 00:39:38,476 Speaker 3: setting the container for a sabbatical is super important. 896 00:39:38,836 --> 00:39:40,556 Speaker 4: So I don't really. 897 00:39:40,396 --> 00:39:42,916 Speaker 3: Want to give people guidance on their particular sabbatical, but 898 00:39:42,996 --> 00:39:45,516 Speaker 3: you got to like set enough time. You have to 899 00:39:45,676 --> 00:39:49,116 Speaker 3: ensure that you are disconnected enough. And partially that means 900 00:39:49,156 --> 00:39:52,076 Speaker 3: traveling if you can, so getting out of your geographic space, 901 00:39:52,956 --> 00:39:55,076 Speaker 3: and partially that just means getting out of your routines 902 00:39:55,276 --> 00:39:58,396 Speaker 3: because that's a vacuum at the beginning of your sabbatical, 903 00:39:58,436 --> 00:40:01,556 Speaker 3: when you subtract all of your responsibilities. It can help 904 00:40:01,596 --> 00:40:04,196 Speaker 3: to have some structured things, especially at the beginning of 905 00:40:04,196 --> 00:40:06,516 Speaker 3: your sabbatical, like you want to do something gets you 906 00:40:06,556 --> 00:40:08,796 Speaker 3: out of your head and into your body. Yoga, teach 907 00:40:08,796 --> 00:40:12,436 Speaker 3: your train, pottery like stuff where you're using your hands. 908 00:40:12,116 --> 00:40:13,596 Speaker 1: Hiking, building cabinets. 909 00:40:13,596 --> 00:40:16,356 Speaker 4: We heard ye, yeah, exactly. Do not suggest going to ikea. 910 00:40:16,436 --> 00:40:18,836 Speaker 3: It's not stressful getting out of your head and into 911 00:40:18,876 --> 00:40:21,796 Speaker 3: your body. And thinking about the phases of a sabbatical 912 00:40:21,956 --> 00:40:26,316 Speaker 3: as healing at the beginning and then experimentation in the middle, 913 00:40:26,716 --> 00:40:30,276 Speaker 3: and then integration at the end. So really like finding 914 00:40:30,316 --> 00:40:33,036 Speaker 3: these what they call like counterfactual experiments, like what would 915 00:40:33,076 --> 00:40:35,156 Speaker 3: my life be like if I did this versus what 916 00:40:35,196 --> 00:40:37,876 Speaker 3: I'm doing now. One of my favorite stories was a 917 00:40:37,876 --> 00:40:40,916 Speaker 3: consultant who would take a sabbatical every four years, and 918 00:40:40,956 --> 00:40:42,636 Speaker 3: he was like, when I retire, I want to run 919 00:40:42,676 --> 00:40:46,116 Speaker 3: an eco lodge. And so you spend a sabbatical volunteering, 920 00:40:46,236 --> 00:40:47,836 Speaker 3: like working in the kitchen and working in the back 921 00:40:47,876 --> 00:40:50,676 Speaker 3: office of eco lodges. And was like, this is actually 922 00:40:50,676 --> 00:40:53,836 Speaker 3: not for me, right, and so like running these experiments 923 00:40:53,836 --> 00:40:56,276 Speaker 3: so that you don't have regrets later in life. 924 00:40:56,356 --> 00:40:58,836 Speaker 1: You've also talked about the importance of using your sabbatical 925 00:40:58,916 --> 00:41:01,836 Speaker 1: to focus on relationships. I know why this is so 926 00:41:01,876 --> 00:41:04,196 Speaker 1: important from the happy to science. The science just shows 927 00:41:04,196 --> 00:41:06,956 Speaker 1: that social connection is so critical for happiness, But why 928 00:41:06,956 --> 00:41:09,036 Speaker 1: can this be so important and transformative? 929 00:41:09,236 --> 00:41:13,276 Speaker 3: Sabbatical specifically, A, I think you can go too far inwards, 930 00:41:13,356 --> 00:41:16,316 Speaker 3: and so I think about sabbaticals as having three archetypes. 931 00:41:16,316 --> 00:41:18,956 Speaker 3: There's like the achievers that really want to get something 932 00:41:18,996 --> 00:41:22,316 Speaker 3: done kind of type A. Folks be the explorers, so 933 00:41:22,356 --> 00:41:24,516 Speaker 3: people that just want to like see the world and 934 00:41:24,756 --> 00:41:25,876 Speaker 3: explore outwards. 935 00:41:25,916 --> 00:41:27,836 Speaker 4: And also like more seekers. 936 00:41:27,396 --> 00:41:29,476 Speaker 3: That want to find out, like I wanted to do 937 00:41:29,516 --> 00:41:32,516 Speaker 3: that spiritual journey so like, and then there's like folks 938 00:41:32,516 --> 00:41:35,116 Speaker 3: that need kind of healing and so, you know, one 939 00:41:35,116 --> 00:41:37,156 Speaker 3: of the tough things is that you spend so much 940 00:41:37,156 --> 00:41:39,556 Speaker 3: time thinking about yourself and what you want, because like 941 00:41:39,596 --> 00:41:41,356 Speaker 3: you're parched, you want to like go out and do 942 00:41:41,396 --> 00:41:43,916 Speaker 3: all the things that you end up just focusing solely 943 00:41:43,956 --> 00:41:47,396 Speaker 3: on yourself for happiness, Like, focusing on relationships is important. 944 00:41:47,676 --> 00:41:49,396 Speaker 3: It gets you out of your head and into more 945 00:41:49,436 --> 00:41:50,596 Speaker 3: like what do we actually care about? 946 00:41:50,596 --> 00:41:51,476 Speaker 4: Like what are we doing here? 947 00:41:51,636 --> 00:41:54,036 Speaker 3: And then second, I think as you as you get older, right, like, 948 00:41:54,076 --> 00:41:56,236 Speaker 3: everyone has their own schedules and you're trying to like 949 00:41:56,276 --> 00:41:59,596 Speaker 3: align stuff, and so this allows you to take the 950 00:41:59,756 --> 00:42:02,876 Speaker 3: scheduling hassles of one side of that equation and take 951 00:42:02,916 --> 00:42:05,196 Speaker 3: it away so you can actually plug into someone else's 952 00:42:05,236 --> 00:42:08,356 Speaker 3: life in their convenience. So it can kind of like 953 00:42:09,396 --> 00:42:12,236 Speaker 3: and catalyze and refresh these relationships that might have run 954 00:42:12,276 --> 00:42:12,876 Speaker 3: a little dry. 955 00:42:13,236 --> 00:42:16,356 Speaker 1: That's so interesting is some of the happiness lab fans know. 956 00:42:16,476 --> 00:42:19,116 Speaker 1: I quite famously took this my own zabbatical when I 957 00:42:19,116 --> 00:42:21,196 Speaker 1: was feeling really burned out, and I think one of 958 00:42:21,196 --> 00:42:24,876 Speaker 1: the unexpected benefits was this sort of relationship building mostly 959 00:42:24,916 --> 00:42:27,156 Speaker 1: because of that schedule issue that you just mentioned, right, 960 00:42:27,156 --> 00:42:29,356 Speaker 1: I wanted to see your friend or catch up, and 961 00:42:29,356 --> 00:42:30,716 Speaker 1: they were like when can you meet? I was like 962 00:42:30,836 --> 00:42:33,716 Speaker 1: one any time, Like I got nothing going on, right, 963 00:42:33,756 --> 00:42:36,316 Speaker 1: you know? And that was just transformative, right because it 964 00:42:36,316 --> 00:42:39,196 Speaker 1: meant that those meetings and those relationships actually got built 965 00:42:39,236 --> 00:42:40,956 Speaker 1: and that those connections actually happened. 966 00:42:41,196 --> 00:42:44,036 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's all these things that we say are importance, 967 00:42:44,076 --> 00:42:46,116 Speaker 3: we know are importance, but we don't make time for 968 00:42:46,476 --> 00:42:50,396 Speaker 3: I talked briefly about this urgent versus important kind of dynamic. 969 00:42:51,236 --> 00:42:52,516 Speaker 3: So it to urge you to think about, like, what 970 00:42:52,556 --> 00:42:55,036 Speaker 3: are important relationships that you haven't given a lot of 971 00:42:55,036 --> 00:42:57,516 Speaker 3: love to, Like what are important things that you want 972 00:42:57,556 --> 00:42:59,756 Speaker 3: to do in your life? And take stock like how 973 00:42:59,796 --> 00:43:02,316 Speaker 3: old am I? Like, how many years have I been working? 974 00:43:02,556 --> 00:43:04,556 Speaker 3: How many times have I taken the chance to do 975 00:43:04,636 --> 00:43:07,076 Speaker 3: some of those things? And I'm guessing the answers like 976 00:43:07,156 --> 00:43:10,356 Speaker 3: pretty pretty rarely, and so like, okay, like you have 977 00:43:10,436 --> 00:43:12,316 Speaker 3: to make the time to do it. So relationships are 978 00:43:12,316 --> 00:43:12,756 Speaker 3: one of those. 979 00:43:13,156 --> 00:43:15,116 Speaker 1: And so any advice for how to pick what to do, 980 00:43:15,316 --> 00:43:17,636 Speaker 1: because I think especially if you're entering the sabbatical for 981 00:43:17,716 --> 00:43:20,076 Speaker 1: that period of healing, if you're feeling really burned out 982 00:43:20,436 --> 00:43:23,196 Speaker 1: and you're thinking like, now's my time to find my passion. 983 00:43:23,716 --> 00:43:25,836 Speaker 1: That can kind of feel a little bit exhausting. But 984 00:43:25,876 --> 00:43:27,876 Speaker 1: you've talked about we shouldn't be going for passion, we 985 00:43:27,876 --> 00:43:30,876 Speaker 1: should focus on tiny curiosities. How does that work? 986 00:43:30,996 --> 00:43:32,316 Speaker 4: Yeah, so full disclosure. 987 00:43:32,356 --> 00:43:34,556 Speaker 3: I took this from Elizabeth Gilbert, Like she talked about 988 00:43:34,596 --> 00:43:37,396 Speaker 3: like chasing your passions is stressful. What if you don't 989 00:43:37,396 --> 00:43:39,156 Speaker 3: know what your passion is? What if your passion doesn't 990 00:43:39,156 --> 00:43:42,796 Speaker 3: fulfill you and instead just thinking about what you're curious about. 991 00:43:42,876 --> 00:43:45,516 Speaker 3: And so if you're like I've always wanted to be 992 00:43:45,596 --> 00:43:47,876 Speaker 3: a master potter and then you like spend your entire 993 00:43:47,916 --> 00:43:50,156 Speaker 3: time trying to find someone to like apprentice with, that 994 00:43:50,156 --> 00:43:51,996 Speaker 3: can be devastating when it turns out you're not good 995 00:43:51,996 --> 00:43:54,956 Speaker 3: at pottery. As opposed to saying like I've you know, 996 00:43:54,996 --> 00:43:56,796 Speaker 3: what is it like to travel on this part? Or 997 00:43:57,436 --> 00:43:58,756 Speaker 3: for me, like what would it be like to hang 998 00:43:58,836 --> 00:44:00,596 Speaker 3: cabinets even though I have no idea what I'm doing? 999 00:44:00,636 --> 00:44:02,276 Speaker 4: And it was okay. 1000 00:44:03,036 --> 00:44:04,516 Speaker 1: It seems like it's kind of getting back to that 1001 00:44:04,556 --> 00:44:07,516 Speaker 1: play mindset, like you don't have to do your sabbatical 1002 00:44:07,556 --> 00:44:10,356 Speaker 1: perfectly to kind of get some huge benefit out of it. 1003 00:44:10,476 --> 00:44:12,996 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think, actually this is going to sound tripe, 1004 00:44:12,996 --> 00:44:15,156 Speaker 3: but the mistakes are part of the thing, right. So 1005 00:44:15,996 --> 00:44:18,676 Speaker 3: there was a person from our study who was like, 1006 00:44:18,716 --> 00:44:20,636 Speaker 3: I really want to learn backcountry skiing, and so they 1007 00:44:20,756 --> 00:44:23,316 Speaker 3: moved to British Columbia for a couple months, I got 1008 00:44:23,316 --> 00:44:27,036 Speaker 3: these lessons, got certified, and then they eventually found themselves 1009 00:44:27,076 --> 00:44:30,276 Speaker 3: tracking like how many vertical feet have I skied each day? 1010 00:44:30,316 --> 00:44:33,236 Speaker 3: And they had like a spreadsheet and then they realized like, oh, 1011 00:44:33,396 --> 00:44:36,396 Speaker 3: like I'm the problem here, Like like the way I 1012 00:44:36,476 --> 00:44:38,916 Speaker 3: attack things is the problem, not like the job. And 1013 00:44:38,916 --> 00:44:41,236 Speaker 3: so even if you sub out of that job, do 1014 00:44:41,276 --> 00:44:43,236 Speaker 3: you want to work on yourself or do you want 1015 00:44:43,236 --> 00:44:45,636 Speaker 3: to just take who you are and say like, Okay, 1016 00:44:45,716 --> 00:44:48,236 Speaker 3: I want to actually attack some other problem I'm passionate 1017 00:44:48,276 --> 00:44:50,276 Speaker 3: about with the same energy and vigor. 1018 00:44:51,036 --> 00:44:54,156 Speaker 1: And so as folks are thinking about sabbatical right now 1019 00:44:54,316 --> 00:44:55,836 Speaker 1: in the middle of twenty twenty five, when we're having 1020 00:44:55,836 --> 00:44:58,876 Speaker 1: this conversation, I think there's also an interesting question about 1021 00:44:59,076 --> 00:45:01,076 Speaker 1: not just how do we take sabbatical, but should we 1022 00:45:01,156 --> 00:45:03,356 Speaker 1: be taking sabbatical when the world feels like it's like 1023 00:45:03,476 --> 00:45:06,436 Speaker 1: literally on fire? You know what's the advice for that. 1024 00:45:07,516 --> 00:45:10,756 Speaker 3: I think this goes back to the burnout and caretaker piece, right, 1025 00:45:10,836 --> 00:45:14,316 Speaker 3: So like put your oxygen mask on before your kids, 1026 00:45:14,916 --> 00:45:18,276 Speaker 3: Like you need perspective as to like what's actually going on, 1027 00:45:18,396 --> 00:45:21,276 Speaker 3: what's important for you, and to get the resources to 1028 00:45:21,356 --> 00:45:23,676 Speaker 3: kind of like take a different tack, right, And so 1029 00:45:23,676 --> 00:45:25,636 Speaker 3: I think it's an opportunity to step back, And I 1030 00:45:25,636 --> 00:45:28,196 Speaker 3: think it's a great opportunity in a time of like 1031 00:45:28,276 --> 00:45:30,516 Speaker 3: where you're feeling not so great to say, like, who 1032 00:45:30,596 --> 00:45:32,116 Speaker 3: do I want to be in this next phase of 1033 00:45:32,116 --> 00:45:35,196 Speaker 3: my life and what skills or like direction do I 1034 00:45:35,236 --> 00:45:36,356 Speaker 3: need to take in or ready to get there? 1035 00:45:37,076 --> 00:45:39,676 Speaker 1: Okay, so I'm watching the clock tick down in like 1036 00:45:39,836 --> 00:45:41,796 Speaker 1: extreme way, which means we've got to get to our 1037 00:45:41,836 --> 00:45:45,036 Speaker 1: parting thoughts. So parting thoughts on why we need this 1038 00:45:45,196 --> 00:45:48,036 Speaker 1: life in career investment and why we should take sabbaticals 1039 00:45:48,076 --> 00:45:48,676 Speaker 1: more seriously. 1040 00:45:49,956 --> 00:45:51,516 Speaker 4: I mean back to the regret insurance. 1041 00:45:51,556 --> 00:45:54,116 Speaker 3: I would just really think about what are some things 1042 00:45:54,116 --> 00:45:55,636 Speaker 3: that you would like to have as a part of 1043 00:45:55,676 --> 00:45:58,676 Speaker 3: your life story and actually document those, like write them 1044 00:45:58,676 --> 00:46:00,956 Speaker 3: down in a journal, and then think about, like when 1045 00:46:00,996 --> 00:46:02,596 Speaker 3: are you going to actually be able to do them? 1046 00:46:02,876 --> 00:46:05,116 Speaker 3: I think often we live in this inertia. 1047 00:46:05,196 --> 00:46:06,116 Speaker 4: Oh well, this is the life. 1048 00:46:06,116 --> 00:46:08,556 Speaker 3: I'm looking two weeks ahead, right, but really trying to 1049 00:46:08,596 --> 00:46:10,236 Speaker 3: take a step back and say, like, what are things 1050 00:46:10,276 --> 00:46:12,396 Speaker 3: that are important to me that I won't be able 1051 00:46:12,396 --> 00:46:14,316 Speaker 3: to do. A stat that I looked up that was 1052 00:46:14,396 --> 00:46:17,116 Speaker 3: kind of surprising was, if you're like a forty year 1053 00:46:17,156 --> 00:46:19,436 Speaker 3: old male, which is what I am, I use mail 1054 00:46:19,476 --> 00:46:22,876 Speaker 3: because our stats are worse, your chances of making it 1055 00:46:22,916 --> 00:46:26,036 Speaker 3: to retirement age are five and six. So your chances 1056 00:46:26,036 --> 00:46:27,916 Speaker 3: of not making it are one and six. If you're 1057 00:46:27,916 --> 00:46:30,756 Speaker 3: a fifty year old couple, you have less than fifty 1058 00:46:30,836 --> 00:46:34,796 Speaker 3: percent chance of both partners reaching retirement age and being 1059 00:46:34,836 --> 00:46:36,996 Speaker 3: able mentally and physically to travel. 1060 00:46:38,596 --> 00:46:40,156 Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm great at dinner parties. 1061 00:46:40,276 --> 00:46:41,716 Speaker 1: Yeah. 1062 00:46:41,756 --> 00:46:44,516 Speaker 3: And so like this we're going to wait till retirement thing, 1063 00:46:44,756 --> 00:46:47,956 Speaker 3: this bucket list thing is not guaranteed. And I hope that, 1064 00:46:47,996 --> 00:46:50,876 Speaker 3: like the pandemic gave us this like touch of like 1065 00:46:50,956 --> 00:46:54,356 Speaker 3: life is precious, but like waiting until you can retire 1066 00:46:54,516 --> 00:46:56,756 Speaker 3: is just not guaranteed. Both what are the things you 1067 00:46:56,796 --> 00:46:58,676 Speaker 3: wish you could do? And then also, oh my gosh, 1068 00:46:58,756 --> 00:47:00,196 Speaker 3: like I might not be able to do them. Hopefully 1069 00:47:00,236 --> 00:47:02,516 Speaker 3: we'll like spray all into action. Twenty thirty one. 1070 00:47:02,996 --> 00:47:05,596 Speaker 1: Twenty thirty one, who's putting in their Google calendar today? 1071 00:47:05,796 --> 00:47:05,996 Speaker 4: Right? 1072 00:47:08,796 --> 00:47:10,796 Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you for joining us for Happiness Lab live 1073 00:47:10,996 --> 00:47:12,316 Speaker 2: at south By Southwest. 1074 00:47:12,396 --> 00:47:16,836 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I hope you enjoyed my chat 1075 00:47:16,836 --> 00:47:19,876 Speaker 1: with Sabbatical expert DJ Dedonna. But that's not the end 1076 00:47:19,956 --> 00:47:22,436 Speaker 1: of the live show fun because I had a chance 1077 00:47:22,476 --> 00:47:25,676 Speaker 1: to record several other podcasts at south By Southwest, and 1078 00:47:25,756 --> 00:47:27,836 Speaker 1: next I'll be sharing a show I did with a 1079 00:47:27,876 --> 00:47:30,916 Speaker 1: new voice in podcasting, but a voice you might already 1080 00:47:30,956 --> 00:47:37,316 Speaker 1: know pretty well well. Hey Professor, Hey Michelle. That's all 1081 00:47:37,356 --> 00:47:40,156 Speaker 1: next time on the Happiness Lab with me Doctor Laurie 1082 00:47:40,156 --> 00:47:43,756 Speaker 1: Santos