Speaker 1: We're not only disconnected on social media and other things
Speaker 1: from others, we're most importantly disconnected from ourself. And so
Speaker 1: how do you take yourself back and gain that sense
Speaker 1: of belonging and mission and ignition to do something with
Speaker 1: your life.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers
Speaker 2: have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes
Speaker 2: like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think,
Speaker 2: ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts
Speaker 2: don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy,
Speaker 2: or fear. We see what we don't have instead of
Speaker 2: what we do. We think things that hold us back
Speaker 2: and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking.
Speaker 2: Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent and creative effort
Speaker 2: to make a life worth living. This podcast is about
Speaker 2: how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction,
Speaker 2: how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 2: Our guest on this episode is John Miles, best selling author,
Speaker 2: keynote speaker, CEO of Passion Struck, and host of the
Speaker 2: podcast Passion Struck with John R.
Speaker 1: Miles.
Speaker 2: Today, John and Eric discuss his new book Passion Struck
Speaker 2: Twelve Powerful Principles to Unlock your purpose and ignite your
Speaker 2: most intentional life.
Speaker 3: Hi John, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: Eric. It's early a profound honor to be on your show.
Speaker 3: I'm really happy to have you on. We're going to
Speaker 3: be discussing your book, which is called Passion Struck Twelve
Speaker 3: Powerful Principles to Unlock your purpose and ignite your most
Speaker 3: intentional life. But before we get to that, we'll start
Speaker 3: in the way that we always do, with the parable.
Speaker 3: And in the Parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with
Speaker 3: their grandchild. They say, in life, there are two wolves
Speaker 3: inside of us that are always at battle. There's a
Speaker 3: bad wolf which represents things like greed and hatred and fear,
Speaker 3: and a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and
Speaker 3: bravery and love. And grandchild stops. They think about it
Speaker 3: for a second. They look up at their grandparent and
Speaker 3: they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says,
Speaker 3: the one you feed. So I'd like to start off
Speaker 3: by asking you what that parable means to you in
Speaker 3: your life and in the work that you do here.
Speaker 1: Eric, Thank you, and I have always found when I
Speaker 1: listen to your episodes it's such a profound opening. I
Speaker 1: like to use a question that I gave few about
Speaker 1: defining moments, but both of them elicit a tremendous response.
Speaker 1: So when I think about that and I look back
Speaker 1: at my own life, I guess I come to this
Speaker 1: vision of what I thought a man of courage was
Speaker 1: when I was younger compared to what I think a
Speaker 1: man of courage is today. And I grew up very
Speaker 1: similar to you, where much of my inner self was suppressed.
Speaker 1: I was kind of aimed at becoming the best I
Speaker 1: could be, with parents who really drove me to perfection,
Speaker 1: and that perfection was something that I battled for years,
Speaker 1: and it ended up leading me to chasing all the
Speaker 1: wrong things in life. I was chasing alcohol, I was
Speaker 1: chasing fame, I was chasing accolades, I was chasing money,
Speaker 1: and I found myself living in what Henry David Thureau
Speaker 1: termed quiet desperation and profoundly stuck. And when I think
Speaker 1: about it now, I think the path that I'm down now,
Speaker 1: which is focused on intrinsic motivation, it makes me think
Speaker 1: of what men of courage really should be. They should
Speaker 1: be strong willed, independent thinkers who have the compassion and
Speaker 1: courage to take on societal issues and to try to
Speaker 1: make change. And that is what I am trying to
Speaker 1: do with my book and my own personal movement that
Speaker 1: I'm on, is to try to show to many of
Speaker 1: the listeners out there what it really means to be
Speaker 1: a man of courage, because I think it's different from
Speaker 1: what's getting portrayed on social media.
Speaker 3: You mentioned your childhood, your father was fairly angry. You
Speaker 3: went on then to be in the military. How many
Speaker 3: years were you in the military.
Speaker 1: I was in for a total of about eleven years.
Speaker 3: Okay, talk to me about what sort of things you
Speaker 3: learned there about courage and which of those things you
Speaker 3: carry forward and which of those things you've left behind.
Speaker 1: Eric, my life has been fine by many defining moments,
Speaker 1: and one of the most defining happened when I was
Speaker 1: a senior, or what we call a firsty at the
Speaker 1: Naval Academy and I had been selected for this prestigious
Speaker 1: role of becoming one of the brigade honor officers. Now
Speaker 1: each company and at the battalion level you have honor officers,
Speaker 1: but I was part of the overall committee and typically
Speaker 1: this is kind of a cake job because how many
Speaker 1: people in any given year are committing honor offenses and
Speaker 1: having to go in front of this board. But when
Speaker 1: I was there, it was a pretty much black or
Speaker 1: white type of thing. If you committed an honor offense
Speaker 1: and you were found guilty, you were expelled. So there
Speaker 1: was a high threshold of pain that people would feel.
Speaker 1: And so my year, first half of it started out
Speaker 1: really well. We didn't have many honor boards. But coming
Speaker 1: back from Christmas break, I walk into this situation where
Speaker 1: two midshipmen had come forward to their electrical engineering professor,
Speaker 1: and these were students who were at the top of
Speaker 1: their class, saying that their personal values couldn't allow them
Speaker 1: not to speak up, but that they had gotten the
Speaker 1: exact version of the tests before the test. And what
Speaker 1: I came back to was the largest cheating scandal in
Speaker 1: the Naval Academy's history. So I went from having a
Speaker 1: sleepy type of role to now having one of the
Speaker 1: most arduous tasks in front of me. And something that
Speaker 1: we came upon very early on was that this wasn't
Speaker 1: just a handful of shipman implicated. There were hundreds upon hundreds,
Speaker 1: and the daunting idea that we were going to have
Speaker 1: to bring all of these people in front of this tribunal,
Speaker 1: where how do you even do it when half the
Speaker 1: tribunal is filled with people from their class? Was really
Speaker 1: becoming a daunting challenge, And so NCIS was brought in, etcetera, etcetera.
Speaker 1: And I could write a whole book on this. The
Speaker 1: petty officer who gave the test away to the midshipman,
Speaker 1: who then ended up spreading it throughout the academy. His
Speaker 1: car blows up just before these trials began to happen.
Speaker 1: But the superintendent at the time, who was a big
Speaker 1: football player from the Roger Staubach era, made the decision
Speaker 1: that he was only going to try twenty five with shipmen,
Speaker 1: and about half of them were football players. And long
Speaker 1: story short is we argued with him over the validity
Speaker 1: of that. We tried to stand up to him saying
Speaker 1: that this really needed to go through the Uniform Code
Speaker 1: Military Justice because it was too big for us to handle, etc.
Speaker 1: And he really threatened us that if you don't do this,
Speaker 1: you're not going to graduate, and I'm going to take
Speaker 1: away your privileges everything else. And it ended with us
Speaker 1: finding the vast majority of these twenty five guilty and
Speaker 1: then him making the decision to then basically reject every
Speaker 1: single one of those convictions if they were a football player.
Speaker 1: So this whole thing ends up going beyond us because
Speaker 1: at the time, somehow the Baltimore Sun was getting information
Speaker 1: about this incident and it was on the front page.
Speaker 1: So the superintendent is getting more and more mad and
Speaker 1: blaming us and taking away our privileges, and everyone who
Speaker 1: was on the board is saying we had nothing to
Speaker 1: do with it. So I end up graduating. The now
Speaker 1: Navy Investigator General has been brought in to look at this,
Speaker 1: and he has come to the conclusion, like we did
Speaker 1: at the beginning, that there are hundreds and hundreds of
Speaker 1: people involved, this is a huge deal, and that there
Speaker 1: was a cover up. And I'm about ready to go
Speaker 1: to my first duty station after I went through master's training,
Speaker 1: and I'm called up to my Admiral's office, who runs
Speaker 1: my whole I guess you could say the whole group
Speaker 1: of officers that I was part of the community, and
Speaker 1: he goes, I don't know why you're supposed to go
Speaker 1: to the Naval Academy, but the Secretary of Defense has
Speaker 1: requested your presence on Monday morning, and you're supposed to
Speaker 1: show up in summer white uniforms. So I get there,
Speaker 1: I'm met by two JAG officers who are there representing me,
Speaker 1: and they tell me that I am being accused of
Speaker 1: undermining the boards and allowing the football players to get
Speaker 1: off and an other things. So I go in and
Speaker 1: the superintendent started to try to cover his own tracks
Speaker 1: by putting the blame on me because he thought it
Speaker 1: was me who had been giving the information away to
Speaker 1: the Baltimore Sun. And so now I walk into this
Speaker 1: session where the table is filled with admirals and attorneys,
Speaker 1: and I am basically fighting my survival. I didn't even
Speaker 1: know walking out of that if I would lose my commission,
Speaker 1: if I would have a future in the military, anything else.
Speaker 1: So for me, I learned a ton of tremendous lessons
Speaker 1: from that. I learned about the abuse of power. I
Speaker 1: learned about what it took to stand up for things
Speaker 1: that you believe in, even if that meant that it
Speaker 1: could cost you everything, but standing up was better than
Speaker 1: just taking it on the chin. I learned during the
Speaker 1: process that you sometimes have to challenge authority when you
Speaker 1: see things not going in the way that you think
Speaker 1: they should and believe that they should. So that was
Speaker 1: a real tremendous learning for me. And then I think
Speaker 1: the other thing that really hit me was when I
Speaker 1: went out to the fleet. You're given a bunch of
Speaker 1: ideals of what that's going to look like, and I
Speaker 1: think that this segment with this cheating scandal really prepared
Speaker 1: me well for the idea that to getting out in
Speaker 1: the real world wasn't like the ideal situation that we
Speaker 1: were taught we were walking into. There was a lot
Speaker 1: more gray areas once you got out there, and I
Speaker 1: kind of went into it now with more open eyes.
Speaker 3: Did you always have that sort of courage to stand
Speaker 3: up to authority? Where did that come from or how
Speaker 3: do you think you were able to find it in
Speaker 3: that situation?
Speaker 1: Well? I think I always had this feeling of being
Speaker 1: taught right and wrong, and I had a really deep
Speaker 1: Catholic upbringing. I went to parochial schools my entire childhood
Speaker 1: and was taught very clear between what is good and
Speaker 1: what is bad. But I think a defining moment before
Speaker 1: I went to the Naval Academy is we had a
Speaker 1: cross country state championships earlier in the stay, and I
Speaker 1: ended up going to this big party where I had
Speaker 1: been drinking, and the friend who was driving on our
Speaker 1: way back his car out of control and we ended
Speaker 1: up almost going over a cliff where we would have
Speaker 1: all died. And at that scene, and I'm not proud
Speaker 1: of it, I walked away because I had a very
Speaker 1: demanding father who I was afraid of. He's a prayer
Speaker 1: marine and he would physically put you to the test,
Speaker 1: and so I did not want him to find out
Speaker 1: about this. And I got home and I lied about
Speaker 1: the whole situation, and unbeknownst to me, the police officer
Speaker 1: had already called them and told them everything. And so
Speaker 1: not only did I let my parents down, but I
Speaker 1: let myself down from not speaking the truth and having
Speaker 1: the courage to come forward in that moment. And I
Speaker 1: think from that learning moment, I just kind of made
Speaker 1: this promise to myself. I wasn't going to let that
Speaker 1: happen again, you know, I wasn't going to let people
Speaker 1: down like I did in that situation, and especially I
Speaker 1: let myself down. So I think that is where a
Speaker 1: lot of it stems from.
Speaker 3: Thanks for sharing all of that your book and your podcast,
Speaker 3: your platform is called passion Struck. What does that word
Speaker 3: mean to you?
Speaker 1: It's so interesting. You know, the podcast has been around
Speaker 1: now for coming on four years. I came up with
Speaker 1: this concept maybe a little under five years ago, and
Speaker 1: I knew this emotion that I was trying to convey, meaning,
Speaker 1: you see something that's a challenge in the world, a
Speaker 1: problem so big that you will invest every bit of
Speaker 1: you to solve it for the benefit of others, to
Speaker 1: serve others. And this means sacrificing your reputational risk, sacrificing
Speaker 1: your financial situation, sacrificing at times your relationships to go
Speaker 1: after it. And I happen to be talking to a
Speaker 1: friend of mine. I mentioned kind of this concept to him,
Speaker 1: and he said, you know, it sounds to me like
Speaker 1: you're going from being stuck to becoming passion struck. And
Speaker 1: it kind of just hit me at that moment that
Speaker 1: this is it. That's exactly what I'm talking about. It's
Speaker 1: this ignition inside that comes when you have clarity over
Speaker 1: an issue that you're bound to solve and will do
Speaker 1: anything it takes to do so.
Speaker 3: And what was that issue for you?
Speaker 1: I think we're best positioned to serve the person we
Speaker 1: once were. And so for me, it was really I
Speaker 1: had been getting these messages for a long time that
Speaker 1: I was not on the right path with where my
Speaker 1: career was heading. And my career was going fabulously well.
Speaker 1: I had become a CIO of a fortune fifty company.
Speaker 1: By the time I was thirty nine years old, things
Speaker 1: were going well. And at the height of all of this,
Speaker 1: I felt the emptiest I ever did in my life,
Speaker 1: and other aspects of my life were falling apart. My
Speaker 1: relationships were falling apart. I wasn't exercising as much, I
Speaker 1: had high stress levels, and I really just found this
Speaker 1: emptiness where I felt extremely apathetic and broken inside and
Speaker 1: just craving for meaning. And so what it really showed
Speaker 1: me was that we have this innate needing to belong
Speaker 1: and when we don't, we face a crisis of unmattering.
Speaker 1: And so to me, that's what the whole thing that
Speaker 1: I'm trying to do with Passion Structure is all about.
Speaker 1: It's how do you start addressing the disease of disconnection
Speaker 1: that is plaguing so many people today because we're not
Speaker 1: only disconnected on social media and other things from others,
Speaker 1: were most importantly disconnected from ourself, and so how do
Speaker 1: you take yourself back and gain that sense of belonging
Speaker 1: and mission and ignition to do something with your life?
Speaker 1: Thank God, what you're here to do?
Speaker 3: Use the word mattering there, what does that mean to you?
Speaker 1: So, Eric, this whole question of mattering is something that
Speaker 1: I have been diving deeply into for the past four years.
Speaker 1: It's interesting because I went out and I started to
Speaker 1: look for the science around mattering. When you start looking
Speaker 1: at behavior science, there's a ton of information on choice
Speaker 1: bracketing and nudges and self determination theory, which is really
Speaker 1: all about our intrinsic motivation. There's positive psychology, there's neuroscience.
Speaker 1: But when I really started asking the experts, and I'm
Speaker 1: talking experts like Max Bezerman and Bob Sutton and Angela
Speaker 1: Duckworth and Ethan Cross and the list goes on and on,
Speaker 1: no one could tell me any work that was being
Speaker 1: done on mattering. And I did more and more research
Speaker 1: and found one gentleman, Gordon Flett, who's at the University
Speaker 1: of York up in Canada, who's really been the only
Speaker 1: one who's been studying this. And I just had this epiphany.
Speaker 1: How can something so essential not be further understood in science?
Speaker 1: And so I have been trying to spend as much
Speaker 1: time as I can interviewing people, researching and writing about
Speaker 1: what does mattering really mean? And I am now working
Speaker 1: on a book about this, so you'll be the first
Speaker 1: person I'm talking to about it. But as I describe this,
Speaker 1: I think that mattering has four fundamental components. There's self mattering,
Speaker 1: the belief that we matter. There's mattering to others, there's
Speaker 1: making others feel like they matter. And ultimately they're spreading
Speaker 1: mattering beyond ourselves and our community to the world. So
Speaker 1: if you think about this, and people have asked me, well,
Speaker 1: how how do you apply this to a sales team? Well,
Speaker 1: I mean it's very easy when you start thinking about it.
Speaker 1: I'll tell you a story about it. I was a
Speaker 1: young buck out of the military. I had been at
Speaker 1: Booz Allen as a consultant for maybe nine months, and
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have considered myself great at sales and any means.
Speaker 1: And I happened to be at this conference and I
Speaker 1: saw a gentleman across the room who was wearing a
Speaker 1: Corvette jacket, had no idea who this person was. But
Speaker 1: I ended up approaching him simply because I was on
Speaker 1: a break and I wanted to talk about corvettes because
Speaker 1: I was bored about what we were talking about at
Speaker 1: this conference. And I started talking to him and he
Speaker 1: was driving a Sting Ray and we both started to
Speaker 1: talk about our passion for corvettes. Well, the more I
Speaker 1: got into this and made him feel like what he
Speaker 1: had to tell me mattered, it opened up aside of
Speaker 1: him that leaned in on me, and suddenly he said, well, well,
Speaker 1: after we exchange names, he said, what do you do?
Speaker 1: I worked for booz Allen. I said, well, what do
Speaker 1: you do? He goes, I'm the top civilian instructor for
Speaker 1: top Gun And he then said, you guys have any
Speaker 1: distance learning capabilities? And I said, well, a matter of fact,
Speaker 1: we just delivered the most comprehensive one to the Army
Speaker 1: National Guard and he goes, that's fundamental to everything I
Speaker 1: want to do. I want to create this program called
Speaker 1: Strike Fighter Online. Well, eighteen months later, after nurturing this relationship,
Speaker 1: we get awarded the contract and it became one hundred
Speaker 1: and fifty million dollars a year contract for Booze Allen.
Speaker 1: My whole point of that is by making him feel
Speaker 1: that he mattered, he reciprocated. And so in order to
Speaker 1: do that, though, you have to feel that you matter yourself.
Speaker 1: So really that's the first step is if you don't
Speaker 1: matter to yourself, if you don't hold self compassion for yourself,
Speaker 1: coming back to that compassion word and really believe in
Speaker 1: you're in hate innate capabilities, you're never going to be
Speaker 1: able to spread mattering onto someone else. So that's kind
Speaker 1: of the framework that I'm exploring.
Speaker 3: So mattering is a pretty ambiguous term, you know, mattering.
Speaker 2: Do I matter?
Speaker 3: How do we go about answering that question? Because I
Speaker 3: think a lot of the ways that we think about
Speaker 3: whether we matter is in comparison to outside things. Right,
Speaker 3: some of it is do I matter because I matter
Speaker 3: to other people? But what's the base element of mattering
Speaker 3: that goes deeper than because I did this, or I
Speaker 3: do that, or I'm respectible for this or a help
Speaker 3: with that? Like, what's the base layer for people of
Speaker 3: mattering for everyone?
Speaker 1: Well, I think people are approaching this the wrong way.
Speaker 1: There's been a lot of research that's come out about
Speaker 1: employee disengagement, meaning when you look at what Gallups produced.
Speaker 1: What it's really showing is that they're nine hundred million
Speaker 1: people in over one hundred and forty countries who are
Speaker 1: unfulfilled in what they do in life. And when you
Speaker 1: think about that, I mean, that's a huge thing. And
Speaker 1: when you look at people like Thomas Spray, who's predicting
Speaker 1: that two billion jobs are going to be displaced by
Speaker 1: automation and AI, it's creating an existential crisis that people
Speaker 1: have that for most people who work, their work drives
Speaker 1: a lot of how they self identify, of the meaning
Speaker 1: that they have, and when that feels threatened, suddenly you
Speaker 1: have this pervasive disconnect that's permeating modern life. Were ensnarred
Speaker 1: in this relentless cycle of chasing, chasing, chase, and chasing
Speaker 1: all the time. And yet in this pursuit, more and
Speaker 1: more people are encountering a profound emptiness that I described
Speaker 1: earlier as quiet desperation. So if you have this deficit
Speaker 1: feeling inside of you, how are you going to be
Speaker 1: able to show up to others in a meaningful way
Speaker 1: when you feel so disconnected from yourself and your own identity.
Speaker 1: And to me, that's what it really comes down to.
Speaker 1: And I know you love zen practices. There's this Buddhist
Speaker 1: philosopher to Saku a Kaida, who has this quote, what
Speaker 1: is defeat in life? It's not merely making a mistake.
Speaker 1: Defeat means giving up on yourself in the midst of difficulty.
Speaker 1: What is true success in life? True success means winning
Speaker 1: your battle with yourself. And to me, that's what mattering is.
Speaker 1: It's winning that battle with yourself of overcoming stuff that
Speaker 1: I talk about in the Book of Self Doubt, imposter syndrome,
Speaker 1: everything else, and really seeing that you can become a
Speaker 1: winner in life. And the winners in life are those
Speaker 1: who went over their weaknesses and learn that they matter
Speaker 1: and that they're able to make other people matter, and
Speaker 1: they're able to conduct change in the world.
Speaker 3: So is mattering connected to achievement?
Speaker 1: I want to really change that whole model. I think
Speaker 1: that's the easiest way we think about mattering is achievement.
Speaker 1: I think of mattering more of service. I feel that
Speaker 1: we are most alive and we feel like we matter
Speaker 1: the most when we perform acts on behalf of other
Speaker 1: people or we witness them. And some of this is
Speaker 1: really backed up by research that dak Or Keltner has
Speaker 1: done on a term that I love he created called
Speaker 1: moral beauty. You found more people experience awe not in
Speaker 1: seeing majestic arts or pieces of beauty, but in seeing
Speaker 1: the moral beauty in others. So to me, mattering equates
Speaker 1: to service. It's serving yourself in some ways, but more importantly,
Speaker 1: it's serving others. And I just had this recent conversation
Speaker 1: with Alison wood Brooks, who's a professor at Harvard Business School,
Speaker 1: and she's got this book coming out called Talk. Her
Speaker 1: focus is on the science and art of communication, and
Speaker 1: when you think about communicating, communicating with another person is
Speaker 1: really a form of mattering because the way that we listen,
Speaker 1: the way that we immerse ourselves in another person's story,
Speaker 1: shows not only that they matter, but it reverberates on
Speaker 1: ourself because we self reflect and see ourselves through them.
Speaker 1: And this is something that you must have seen when
Speaker 1: you were going through your own recovery from addiction, that
Speaker 1: the more you started to storytell your story, other people
Speaker 1: would lean in on it and support you more because
Speaker 1: of it, because they understood they had been there, you
Speaker 1: were being vulnerable with them. And to me, mattering isn't
Speaker 1: just this small thing. It permeates every aspect of our lives,
Speaker 1: and when it's out of sync, I believe it's at
Speaker 1: the core of why so many people feel helpless, lonely, bored, battered, broken,
Speaker 1: whatever you want to call.
Speaker 3: It, because they don't feel that they matter. In that
Speaker 3: disconnect is fundamentally one of by helping others, you see
Speaker 3: that you have a place in things that is important.
Speaker 3: Am I saying that more or less the way you
Speaker 3: would say it?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean by helping others, by serving others, by
Speaker 1: having that I call it my book creative amplifier. I
Speaker 1: mean you're trying to amplify the fruits in people's lives.
Speaker 1: It brings you an inherent sense in turn that you
Speaker 1: matter and that you matter to others. And the more
Speaker 1: you feel that, the more you're going to make other
Speaker 1: people matter. And there's work that Emil Bruneau did, but
Speaker 1: he was really working on dehumanization. And the way that
Speaker 1: he was trying to address conflicts was he saw most
Speaker 1: of the time, when people had deep rooted conflicts like
Speaker 1: we're seeing in Israel right now, it all comes down
Speaker 1: to each side's mattering if you think about it, and
Speaker 1: the other side not feeling that they matter, and so
Speaker 1: he was trying to use compassion and empathy and helping
Speaker 1: to see the other side, see the person as they
Speaker 1: are as a means to close the gap and try
Speaker 1: to create a path forward. So that's another way that
Speaker 1: you can think of mattering.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it makes me think of it's a Buddhist practice,
Speaker 3: but it doesn't really matter. I think it's called commonalities practice,
Speaker 3: but it's the practice of seeing in what ways are
Speaker 3: others like me? And it fights dehumanization because if you do,
Speaker 3: and you and I've talked about this separately, about how
Speaker 3: to each individual their interior world matters, and their family matters,
Speaker 3: and their kids matter. Those things matter to them every
Speaker 3: bit as much as those things matter to me. And
Speaker 3: when I can see that, I think it helps avoid
Speaker 3: that dehumanization because we see that at its base, we
Speaker 3: all are very very similar at the base level. Now,
Speaker 3: the further you go up the stack, that more different
Speaker 3: we get. But at a base level, we all want,
Speaker 3: in essence what you're saying. We all want to matter.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we all want safety. We all want to
Speaker 1: feel that we can be who we are without being
Speaker 1: told we have to be something different. I mean it really.
Speaker 1: I mean it gets into body dysmorphia, it gets into
Speaker 1: overcoming trauma, it gets into how we're showing up for
Speaker 1: our kids. It permeates everything. And I didn't realize how
Speaker 1: much it was like water until I really started to
Speaker 1: think about how much it applies exubstantially in our lives.
Speaker 3: Let's go back to you working in a job. You're
Speaker 3: very successful in your career. You're managing lots of people,
Speaker 3: so in a sense, you matter to a lot of
Speaker 3: people because you're helping direct and guide what they're doing.
Speaker 3: So you mattered then, But I get the sense you
Speaker 3: didn't feel it. So how do we connect those dots? Right?
Speaker 3: Because if we look at any of our lives, we
Speaker 3: can see in what ways we matter. Let's say I've
Speaker 3: got a job and I go to work, and if
Speaker 3: I have six other coworkers, I'm mad because the person
Speaker 3: I am among those six people has a lot to
Speaker 3: do with the quality of their day to day life. Right.
Speaker 3: I can make being at work an enjoyable thing or
Speaker 3: an unenjoyable thing, depending on what I bring. So I matter.
Speaker 3: If we're parents of children, right, we deeply matter because
Speaker 3: we have children that we're raising, and yet there still
Speaker 3: seems to be a disconnect where people do matter that
Speaker 3: don't feel like they matter. How do you connect these
Speaker 3: dots up in your mind?
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I don't want people when I go into
Speaker 1: this to feel sorry for me or to say, you know,
Speaker 1: this guy had it all and what's he talking about
Speaker 1: when I go into this. But when you think about
Speaker 1: senior executives of anyone who's listening, a lot of the
Speaker 1: employees below them think that they're completely out of the
Speaker 1: loop on what's going on below them. And for much
Speaker 1: of my career I didn't feel that way. I felt
Speaker 1: like I had an extra impulse on what was going
Speaker 1: on within my teams. I have a concept in my
Speaker 1: book that I talk about speaking with your feet, because
Speaker 1: I believe that the best leaders are very present in
Speaker 1: showing up and talking and being present and explaining things
Speaker 1: to employees. But I was finding that the more senior
Speaker 1: I was getting, inherently the things that I felt mattered
Speaker 1: most to leading people were slowly and progressively evaporating from
Speaker 1: what I was able to do on a day to
Speaker 1: day basis. And I was reaching a point where I
Speaker 1: had so many fires that I was trying to fight,
Speaker 1: and the vast majorities of these fires were employee issues,
Speaker 1: because I had employees now in fifteen countries on four
Speaker 1: or five continents, and they were in the politics of
Speaker 1: the day. There was so much infighting going on between
Speaker 1: the different presidents at Dell and who was partnered with who,
Speaker 1: and what was happening and who was trying to do
Speaker 1: this and that that my entire life was starting to
Speaker 1: be focused on putting out fires and not doing what
Speaker 1: I thought was the most meaningful thing in my job,
Speaker 1: which was learning all this acumen that I had had
Speaker 1: from the military and growing up on how do you
Speaker 1: properly lead people? And so I found myself becoming more
Speaker 1: and more out of tune what was happening on the
Speaker 1: front line. I used to be able to know when
Speaker 1: I was the head of software development at Low's what
Speaker 1: a developer was working on and how it pertained to
Speaker 1: that solution, and was able to strategize and put myself
Speaker 1: into their position. And I found myself further and further
Speaker 1: from that. And then on top of that, I was
Speaker 1: traveling overseas two weeks out of the month, so here
Speaker 1: I'm absent half the time from a lot of the people.
Speaker 1: I'm absent from my family, and I'm seeing those relationships
Speaker 1: have impact. I'm absent from myself because when you're traveling
Speaker 1: like that, you're not keeping a healthy regiment in place,
Speaker 1: and your schedule is constantly changing, and then I'm doing
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of things that I don't enjoy doing.
Speaker 1: And I just felt empty, and I can't even describe it.
Speaker 1: I just felt so freaking numb inside that I'm not
Speaker 1: even sure if you stuck up pin in me, I
Speaker 1: would have felt it because I was seeing myself just
Speaker 1: wasting away and I was completely stuck, and I felt
Speaker 1: like there was no hope to get myself out of
Speaker 1: it because look at all the stuff I had built up.
Speaker 1: I was going to be let down to my parents.
Speaker 1: I was going to let my family down. I now
Speaker 1: had this house and the possessions and everything else. I
Speaker 1: couldn't even comprehend what it was like to close that gap.
Speaker 1: I describe it when I think of stuck, stagnant. I
Speaker 1: lacked the confidence. I was timid, I was uncertain of
Speaker 1: where to go. I was conflicted, torn between what I
Speaker 1: felt I should be doing and what I really want
Speaker 1: to do. And I was knotted inside because I was
Speaker 1: entangled in habits and beliefs that were preventing progress. So
Speaker 1: I hope I'm making that vision clearer because it's important
Speaker 1: for me to do so, because I think there are
Speaker 1: a lot of people who feel how I felt.
Speaker 3: Hey, friends, it's Eric. Let's talk about something hard. How
Speaker 3: many times have you made a promise to yourself and
Speaker 3: broken it. You said you'd go to bed earlier, start exercising,
Speaker 3: or stop reaching for that late night snack, but when
Speaker 3: the moment of choice came, something pulled you in the
Speaker 3: wrong direction. Those moments, those choice points, are where everything happens,
Speaker 3: and when we keep failing at them, it doesn't just
Speaker 3: derail our goals. It chips away at something deeper, our
Speaker 3: trust and ourselves. But it doesn't have to stay that way.
Speaker 3: In my upcoming free workshop, the Six Saboteurs of Self Control,
Speaker 3: we'll explore what happens at these choice points, why they're
Speaker 3: so hard to navigate, and most importantly, how to approach
Speaker 3: them differently. This isn't about willpower or trying harder. It's
Speaker 3: about understanding the hidden forces that lead to making the
Speaker 3: wrong choices and learning the tools to rebuild your confidence
Speaker 3: one choice at a time. Imagine trusting yourself again, knowing
Speaker 3: that when you say you'll do something, you actually follow through.
Speaker 3: That's what this workshop is about. Join me and let's
Speaker 3: turn your choice points into moments of strength. Go to
Speaker 3: good Wolf dot me slash self control. That's good Wolf
Speaker 3: dot me slash self control to register for this free workshop.
Speaker 3: I think a lot of people do feel how you felt.
Speaker 3: Something I think about a lot is when do we
Speaker 3: need to outright make a dramatic change and when can
Speaker 3: we change our approach, our attitude, our beliefs and work
Speaker 3: within a place we are. And I think a lot
Speaker 3: of people have this with their work life because they
Speaker 3: feel a lot of what you're describing. And the question
Speaker 3: is is there a way within their existing role for
Speaker 3: them to start to reconnect to what matters, to find
Speaker 3: a way to look at their situation differently. Can we
Speaker 3: make it good enough by staying or do we really
Speaker 3: need to blow it all up and try something different?
Speaker 3: And you and I talked about this a little bit
Speaker 3: before when I was talking with you about how there's
Speaker 3: something to be said for people who hit rock bottom,
Speaker 3: right because you know, in my case, like I burnt
Speaker 3: all of my life to the ground, there was no
Speaker 3: decision about what parts that I keep and what parts
Speaker 3: I don't keep. Most of the time for people though,
Speaker 3: the choices aren't that clear. So how did you get
Speaker 3: to a point where it became clear to you that
Speaker 3: this isn't a matter of me realigning how I think
Speaker 3: or feel or orient but like, fundamentally, I need to
Speaker 3: have the courage to make a change. Was there a
Speaker 3: defining moment that you knew it.
Speaker 1: You're going to have to let me explain this, and
Speaker 1: it may take a couple of minutes to give the
Speaker 1: full impact, because I want listeners to really understand that
Speaker 1: I'm not just here pontificating. I have lived this and
Speaker 1: it is myself pulling myself out of the deaths of doom.
Speaker 1: And what I thought was the bottom that kept getting
Speaker 1: even deeper that is taken me to where I'm at now.
Speaker 1: So I had this calling for a long time. I
Speaker 1: remember when I was living in Mooresville and I was
Speaker 1: working at Loew's. I started to get very deeply involved
Speaker 1: in our local church, which was a Methodist church. So
Speaker 1: it was one of the first times I wasn't attending
Speaker 1: Catholic church, and they had this program called Discipleship which
Speaker 1: if anyone's been through it, it's not a trivial thing.
Speaker 1: You study the Bible for thirty six weeks and you
Speaker 1: go through Discipleship one is the Old and New Testament.
Speaker 1: Discipleship two is the New Testament. Discipleship three is the
Speaker 1: Old Testament. But it was the closest I had ever
Speaker 1: felt to our Maker, and it was the first time
Speaker 1: I had really read the Bible and had a teacher
Speaker 1: who was really trying to showcase because he had a
Speaker 1: PhD in history in addition to theology, of how these
Speaker 1: things that were happening, these metaphors that Joseph Campbell talks
Speaker 1: about were playing in our lives. And during this time
Speaker 1: I started to pray and reflect more and more about
Speaker 1: my life and what I inherently should be doing. And
Speaker 1: I started to get these visions that I wasn't doing
Speaker 1: what I was called to do, and inherently I knew this.
Speaker 1: When I left the military. I had left because I
Speaker 1: got an appointment to go to the FBI, and it
Speaker 1: was kind of my childhood dream to do this. And
Speaker 1: then my class got canceled and I was forced into
Speaker 1: another path. And I was well down this path and
Speaker 1: doing well in it, but it wasn't lighting me up inside.
Speaker 1: But instead of using this as a queue that at
Speaker 1: that point I needed to change and the change would
Speaker 1: have been easier, I doubled down and instead I led
Speaker 1: my family out of Charlotte. I went for money. I
Speaker 1: took this job at Dell for the title and everything else,
Speaker 1: and things started going worse. So behind the scenes, as
Speaker 1: my job is becoming less and less meaningful, I am
Speaker 1: in this temporary apartment. I go home for the first
Speaker 1: time in a few weeks. I get back apartments flooded, water,
Speaker 1: main brakes, everything is lost. They move me to the
Speaker 1: souther apartment and eric like three weeks later, I keep
Speaker 1: hearing these visions, keep ignoring them, and I'm in the
Speaker 1: shower and all of a sudden, I feel the stinging
Speaker 1: on me and I look up and they're scorpions dropping
Speaker 1: from the ceiling on me.
Speaker 3: I was about to wonder whether frogs started dropping from
Speaker 3: the sky or locusts, But scorpions will do. Scorpions will do.
Speaker 1: And I go to this company who's running the apartment complex,
Speaker 1: and they say, we don't have scorpions, and one's reported it.
Speaker 1: They can't find them. Then my family comes to visit
Speaker 1: the kids' beds end up both being infested with bedbubs.
Speaker 1: Then we get bit by scorpions more, and this time
Speaker 1: actually had video to show them of all the scorpions
Speaker 1: that were coming out at night. Oh, we end up
Speaker 1: buying a house, So even though my wife is begging
Speaker 1: me not to move, I pushed forward with very good reason.
Speaker 1: I might add with very good reason. We buy this
Speaker 1: house and we find out after we buy it that
Speaker 1: it had termite damage that extended around the whole back
Speaker 1: half of the house and up into throughout our kitchen
Speaker 1: and upstairs. So now because it wasn't picked up on
Speaker 1: the inspection, I got a quarter million dollar issue. I
Speaker 1: end up leaving Dell. We moved to Florida. We buy
Speaker 1: this house because we don't want to have to fix it.
Speaker 1: So we get a relatively new house and we're only
Speaker 1: in it for about three months when a storm comes
Speaker 1: and it turns out our roof had a hole in it,
Speaker 1: and we end up having mold and other damage and
Speaker 1: having to spend another two hundred thousand to rip it apart.
Speaker 1: It led me to getting divorced et cetera, et cetera,
Speaker 1: et cetera, and still I am not listening, and it
Speaker 1: finally took me going to I dropped my daughter off
Speaker 1: from school. Well at the time, I was going to
Speaker 1: Orange Theory four or five times a week, and this
Speaker 1: day there's a fire at Orange Theory in the electrical room.
Speaker 1: I ended up going to my house early, and I
Speaker 1: walk in on an in home robbery where the person
Speaker 1: who's robbing the ends up pointing my own gun at me.
Speaker 1: I end up evading from that, starting to have this
Speaker 1: existential crisis on top of everything else that's going on.
Speaker 1: And four days later, my best friend jumped off the
Speaker 1: Skyway bridge and committed suicide. And coming out of this,
Speaker 1: I just went into the deepest and darkest despair and
Speaker 1: I looked back at all these opportunities along the way
Speaker 1: I had to change, and I started to realize that
Speaker 1: it went from me being pushed to being kicked, to
Speaker 1: being batted over the head, to losing pretty much everything,
Speaker 1: including my physical and psychological safety, and are unearthing tons
Speaker 1: of PTSD and past trauma that I finally made the
Speaker 1: decision that I'm going to break away from this. I
Speaker 1: am going to dedicate as long as it takes to
Speaker 1: relearning myself relearning what's most important to me, getting my
Speaker 1: life back into order, and using this as an opportunity
Speaker 1: to help other people get out of this shithole that
Speaker 1: I found myself in.
Speaker 3: Wow, that is quite a story. Thank you for sharing
Speaker 3: all of that.
Speaker 1: Well, it's hard for me to even believe now looking
Speaker 1: back that it even happened. I'm right, I mean, it's
Speaker 1: something that you think you can't even make up. It
Speaker 1: also reminds me of the stories you read about in
Speaker 1: the Bible, of these things that happened to people that
Speaker 1: weren't following their inherent path until they woke up and
Speaker 1: started to do it. And it also brought me to
Speaker 1: this really fundamental belief that I think we're all put
Speaker 1: here for a very specific reason, and we have inherent
Speaker 1: talents inside make us so unique and back to this
Speaker 1: mattering that make us matter in the world, and when
Speaker 1: we're not using them in the right way that we
Speaker 1: were put on earth to do it, I think our
Speaker 1: life ends up going off the path. Gabby Bernstein has
Speaker 1: talked about this, and mel Robbins has talked about this,
Speaker 1: But I saw that show up in my own life,
Speaker 1: and the more I started to go down the path
Speaker 1: of what I inside knew I should be doing. My
Speaker 1: life started to turn around immensely.
Speaker 3: What are those things that you knew you should be doing?
Speaker 3: What are the big changes?
Speaker 1: This is like the million dollar question to me when
Speaker 1: we look at this, and when you and I spoke earlier,
Speaker 1: I mentioned Bob Sutton, who's an amazing organizational psychologist. But
Speaker 1: Bob is well known for a book he wrote about
Speaker 1: closing the knowledge versus doing gap, and that's what this
Speaker 1: is really about. You know you need to change, Like
Speaker 1: if you have a drinking issue, you know you need
Speaker 1: to stop, but you keep going along with it and
Speaker 1: make excuses to yourself instead of dealing with it. Well,
Speaker 1: kind of the same thing here. I knew I had
Speaker 1: to figure out what was the biggest block that was
Speaker 1: keeping me stuck. And I think that's why in cognitive
Speaker 1: behavioral therapy they refer to it as stuck points. So
Speaker 1: I immersed myself in taking steps to get over the
Speaker 1: past trauma and that most recent trauma that I had had,
Speaker 1: and it was extremely painful because it had been something
Speaker 1: that I had been suppressing for years and years and years,
Speaker 1: and it all started all the way back to when
Speaker 1: I was five years old. And got pushed through a
Speaker 1: basement window playing tag. And I had a traumatic brain
Speaker 1: injury and went all the way back to that. I
Speaker 1: had sexual trauma, I had physical assault trauma, I had
Speaker 1: combat trauma, and I had to deal with it. And
Speaker 1: so I went through cognitive processing therapy and that helped somewhat.
Speaker 1: I went through prolonged exposure therapy, I went through EMDR,
Speaker 1: and it was this work on myself and really battling
Speaker 1: through those stuck points that were causing me to not
Speaker 1: get over these fundamental psychological hurdles that by doing so,
Speaker 1: they started to release confidence in me that I could
Speaker 1: tackle other areas of my life. It opened the door
Speaker 1: that I could get myself into better shape. It opened
Speaker 1: the door that some of these issues that I had
Speaker 1: had from traumatic brain injuries, I didn't need to be
Speaker 1: a victim to them and I could tackle these. And
Speaker 1: the thing I like to tell people is the journey
Speaker 1: of a thousand miles, and Robin Charmus says, this too,
Speaker 1: starts with a single act, and that act then opens
Speaker 1: up tons of doors that you don't even expect, where
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you're working on one thing, but
Speaker 1: it starts propagating into a myriad of things and then compounds,
Speaker 1: which really gets into the core concept that I like
Speaker 1: to talk about is the micro choices or micro decisions
Speaker 1: that we make are the things that lead to either
Speaker 1: a waterfall of happiness and fulfillment or to a value
Speaker 1: of despair.
Speaker 3: Yeah. It's interesting because we talked earlier a little bit
Speaker 3: about defining moments. You and I talked about defining moments
Speaker 3: at a different time, and there are moments that are defining,
Speaker 3: but as you say, it's the thousands of micro moments
Speaker 3: that actually allow those defining moments to mean anything.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 3: And So a couple of questions that I'd like to
Speaker 3: just kind of dive into your book here a little bit,
Speaker 3: and one of them is talking about in your passion
Speaker 3: Strut framework, you've got these different mindset and behavioral shifts
Speaker 3: and one of them is called brand reinventor. But there's
Speaker 3: a line in there that you talk about where you
Speaker 3: say comfort is the enemy of adaptability. So first, what
Speaker 3: is adaptability? Why is it important? And talk to me
Speaker 3: about how comfort gets in the way.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I remember as a senior executive, one of the
Speaker 1: things that was so top of mind and it is
Speaker 1: today is emotional intelligence or EQ, and I think that
Speaker 1: that is extremely important in our lives, and it's extremely
Speaker 1: important the more senior you get in anything you do,
Speaker 1: because so much more of your responsibility is in dealing
Speaker 1: with others. But I think we're missing a bigger opportunity
Speaker 1: in how much a role adaptability plays, both professionally and personally.
Speaker 1: And professionally it's something that I think people have to
Speaker 1: get used to. I mean, the amount of change that
Speaker 1: is coming upon us has gone from a trickle I
Speaker 1: remember when I started my career to now a waterfall
Speaker 1: and I can't even predict what it's going to be
Speaker 1: like ten to fifteen years from now. But if you
Speaker 1: are not able to adapt to the tsunami of change,
Speaker 1: you are going to be in a very hurtful place.
Speaker 1: So that's one way to look at adaptability. But I
Speaker 1: think another way to look at it is throughout life.
Speaker 1: I think we go through different phases, through the transition
Speaker 1: points that make up our life, and it's having that
Speaker 1: inner fortitude to understand that at times we have to
Speaker 1: adjust and adapt to our surroundings, adapt to how we
Speaker 1: treat people, adapt to how we show up in the world,
Speaker 1: adapt to changing times, as our kids get older and
Speaker 1: our role as a parent adapts to the different stages
Speaker 1: of their life. The same thing we have to adapt
Speaker 1: as our parents get older. So that's kind of two
Speaker 1: different lenses of what I meant about the ability to adapt.
Speaker 3: I agree, I think it's a Darwin quote. I won't
Speaker 3: get it right. But it's not like the strongest survive,
Speaker 3: it's like the most adaptable survive. Right, that's the key thing.
Speaker 3: You know, can you adapt to your environment? And I
Speaker 3: think you're right that things keep changing on us. There's
Speaker 3: the external pace of change which is accelerating as you're saying,
Speaker 3: but our lives change, right, Like you mentioned kids kids
Speaker 3: are two, you've got a different set of challenges and
Speaker 3: when your kids are eight versus when they're fifteen, And
Speaker 3: we have a different set of challenges in our own
Speaker 3: physicality from the age of say, I'm not the same
Speaker 3: as I was at twenty five physically, right, So how
Speaker 3: do I adapt? How do I change? And if we
Speaker 3: keep dragging what worked before and trying to force it
Speaker 3: into different situations, we end up in trouble. So what
Speaker 3: role does comfort play in us not being adaptable?
Speaker 1: Well, for me, the easiest way to explain it would
Speaker 1: be through Carol Dwe's work and the difference between mindsets
Speaker 1: and having a growth mindset or not having one, because
Speaker 1: that's where comfort it really comes into place when you
Speaker 1: become complacent. A way I describe this later on in
Speaker 1: the book is people all the time say you live
Speaker 1: your life on autopilot, and I think it's an okay
Speaker 1: way to talk about this opposite of having a growth mindset,
Speaker 1: because you're kind of just going through the motions and
Speaker 1: things seem to be going well, but you're kind of
Speaker 1: just bopping down the street. I think the analogy is wrong, though.
Speaker 1: I think so many of us today are living more
Speaker 1: what I call a pinball life. We are acting as
Speaker 1: if we are the ball in the game of pinball,
Speaker 1: instead of the player learning how to play the game
Speaker 1: and the underlying subgames that make up pinball, which is
Speaker 1: kind of like life. And so from the lens of this,
Speaker 1: when you're comfortable being a pinball, you just allow yourself
Speaker 1: to bounce off of things. You are a complete victim
Speaker 1: of the circumstances around you. Whereas when you start really
Speaker 1: adapting and forcing yourself to take a deeper look at
Speaker 1: your core values at the most important things of your life.
Speaker 1: You start being more intentional about how you want that
Speaker 1: ball to start navigating its surroundings. And to me, that's
Speaker 1: a good metaphor to describe it.
Speaker 3: I like that analogy a lot. And I think, you know,
Speaker 3: autopilot's an interesting thing because autopilot can be really good
Speaker 3: if you're heading in the right direction. A self driving
Speaker 3: car is kind of a lovely thing if it's going
Speaker 3: where you want it to go, because then you can
Speaker 3: be like, all right, well that's working. I can now
Speaker 3: pay attention to this, or I can pay attention to that.
Speaker 3: The problem is that either we don't know where we're going,
Speaker 3: or the road conditions are changing rapidly enough that we
Speaker 3: can't leave it on autopilot. And I think that's where
Speaker 3: we get stuck. The human ability to habituate and do
Speaker 3: certain things without thinking about them is actually an evolutionary
Speaker 3: advantage for us. It's just that life is changing to
Speaker 3: quickly to remain on autopilot, and if you try, you
Speaker 3: end up being, as you're saying, the pinball it is.
Speaker 1: And Angela Duckworth is really known for her work on grit,
Speaker 1: but what I think her more profound work has been
Speaker 1: on is self regulation, and to me, what you're talking
Speaker 1: about is a lot of self regulation. Self regulation means
Speaker 1: self reinvention. It's a reminder that when you're old ways
Speaker 1: set in, you can either choose to accept it or
Speaker 1: you can reinvent yourself and push your own boundaries further,
Speaker 1: which to me, is all about what intentionality, self control
Speaker 1: or self regulation is all about. It's recognizing that you
Speaker 1: have to adapt to your surroundings and it's kind of
Speaker 1: where the threat mechanism comes in, because if you don't,
Speaker 1: there are going to be consequences.
Speaker 3: Well, I think that is a great place for us
Speaker 3: to wrap up, John, Thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 3: I've enjoyed this conversation. We'll have links in the show
Speaker 3: notes to your book and where can people find you?
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can find the podcast passion Struck wherever you
Speaker 1: listen to shows just like yours. And I have two websites.
Speaker 1: If you want to learn more about the Passionstruck movement,
Speaker 1: go to passionstruck dot com. You can sign up for
Speaker 1: my Live Intentionally newsletter. If you want to learn more
Speaker 1: about me or hire me to speak, go to John
Speaker 1: Rmiles dot com. Wonderful, Thanks so much, John, Thank you
Speaker 1: such an honor to be on your show.
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