1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:05,480 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily Bloomberg I Heart podcast, 2 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:08,559 Speaker 1: and I'm Stacy Marie Ishmael, Managing editor of Crypto for 3 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: Bloomberg News. It's Thursday, November three. As my colleague David 4 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: Pan has been reporting, bitcoin miners have been having a 5 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: very rough time. To paraphrase one of his recent stories, 6 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: falling bitcoin prices and rising energy costs lead to combined 7 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:42,559 Speaker 1: second quarter losses of more than one billion dollars for 8 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: the top three publicly traded players in the US Core, 9 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: Scientific Marathon, Digital and Riot Box Chain. Yikes. This crunch 10 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: has led to miners trying to raise cash by selling 11 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: off their emergency stockpiles of bitcoin right into the teeth 12 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: of a down market. But at the same time, and 13 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: here's where you'll hear from my colleague Michael Smith, miners 14 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 1: continue to flock to places like Texas, where not everyone 15 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: is a fan of those recent arrivals. Why well, Texas 16 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,319 Speaker 1: isn't known for having the world's most stable power grid, 17 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: so miners and state officials have had the pilot ways 18 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 1: to address concerns about this rising energy consumption. We're going 19 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 1: to turn now to Bloomberg Reports. Is David Pan and 20 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: Michael Smith. David, Michael, good to have you on the show. 21 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: Probably not so good for the people who are going 22 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 1: to be talking about today, who are the bitcoin miners. David. 23 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:47,039 Speaker 1: I'd love to start with you because you've been reporting 24 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: extensively on the state of the industry, which seems from 25 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: reading your reporting not to be great right now. Yeah, definitely. 26 00:01:57,440 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: Um so when you when you look at a mining 27 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: avenue for all the bigcoin mining companies, uh, we are 28 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: seeing like record lows constantly in recent weeks. And um 29 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:11,920 Speaker 1: there are three major reasons. The first one is apparently 30 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: the low biitcoin prices. You know it started from earlier 31 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 1: this year the market crashed. The second reason is the 32 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 1: soaring energy costs, and earlier this year we have you know, 33 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:27,079 Speaker 1: the rushing invasion into Ukraine that kind of increased the 34 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: guest prices um for the whole energy market. Later this year, 35 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: we see the heat waves across the Southern States in 36 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 1: the US, and nearly all industrial scale bitcoin miners in 37 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: Texas have shut off their machines. That's as the company's 38 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:45,399 Speaker 1: brace for a heat wave that is expected to push 39 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: the state's power grid near its breaking point. The state 40 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:50,800 Speaker 1: has become one of the world, and then we're seeing 41 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: more competition because which is a little bit contraintuitive because 42 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: we see low prices with the high energy prices. Uh. 43 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,839 Speaker 1: But at the same time, miners continue to install their 44 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 1: mining machines. So a very big reason for that is 45 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: because they bought so many machines um during during the 46 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:16,639 Speaker 1: boom market, starting from last December last November, and now 47 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: they finally got the machines and the price of the 48 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 1: prices are crashing. But at the same time they have 49 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 1: to install or to continue to build up the capacity 50 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 1: because they've already invested like tens of millions of dollars 51 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 1: into the infrastructure. They have to finish it so that 52 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: they can actually prevent further losses in displayer market. The 53 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: very definition of some cost fallacy, it sounds to me. 54 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 1: But you know, Mike, you spent a bunch of time 55 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 1: interviewing miners in Texas and you you sort of like 56 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: written about what that experience wasn't And one thing that 57 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: struck me from your reporting was like this fundamental optimism 58 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: about a lot of those folks despite the conditions that 59 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: David are describing. Yeah, it's kind of interesting. Um, I've 60 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 1: met a lot of a lot of folks who are 61 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: actually building out mines or certainly all have dreams of 62 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: building minds, and those dreams really haven't been diminished or 63 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:16,280 Speaker 1: what I can tell. It's kind of like the psychology 64 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 1: of oil. People who are looking for oil and gas, 65 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: they're always looking to strike it rich, and Texas is 66 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:26,280 Speaker 1: by definition the kind of place that invites that kind 67 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: of sort of enthusiasm. We've seen in you know, the 68 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:32,720 Speaker 1: last few weeks of October that gas prices and in 69 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 1: Texas are actually like declining significantly. There are supply problems. 70 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 1: It's a complicated story. It's always complicated story. But some 71 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: of the costs are coming down, but at the same time, 72 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: miners are trying to cover those costs by selling their 73 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: bitcoin into a market in which bitcoin is hovering like blue. 74 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:54,359 Speaker 1: What are what like what are the analysts projections for 75 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:56,799 Speaker 1: how this is going to play out? In Q three earnings? 76 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: In Q four you will see like the you know, 77 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: the negative impacts from the climate because you know, they 78 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 1: kind of like scaled back a lot of mining operations 79 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: during the summers. That will directly affect their revenue for 80 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 1: the third quarter and for the fourth quarter. I think 81 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: that is a very interesting time for us to see because, 82 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:22,599 Speaker 1: as Michael said, some part of the costs are decreasing, 83 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:26,799 Speaker 1: for example, like the energy prices because it's getting cooler 84 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: and and the mining ranks are getting cheaper. But at 85 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: the same time we are seeing increasing costs in other areas, 86 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,919 Speaker 1: for example, the borrowing costs, like you know, the lenders 87 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 1: are scaling back, and interest rates arising generally exactly, and 88 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: people lenders generally just like have less trusting bitcoin miners 89 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 1: because fair and and then we also have this like 90 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: a very wonky but super important gauge, which is the 91 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: mining difficulty. You know that that is the measure of 92 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: computing power used for bitcoin mining. Uh So, previously we 93 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: mentioned that there are a lot more miners, they are 94 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 1: forced to continue to build out their capacity. That would 95 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 1: actually increase the mining difficulty for everyone who's the mining biwcoin, 96 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 1: which means this will lower the revenue for each miner. 97 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:17,480 Speaker 1: So this is sort of like a zero stump game. 98 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 1: So the more miners there are, the more mining power 99 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:29,040 Speaker 1: there is, the less revenue each minor we have. Mike, 100 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: can you talk about some of the specific things that 101 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:34,160 Speaker 1: folks in Texas are doing to handle like this kind 102 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: of confluence of events, especially on the Responding to the 103 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: concerns that many people have identified about the strain on 104 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 1: Texas is power grid the regulators in Texas, which is 105 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 1: quite likely lightly regulated. Uh, basically they should come to 106 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:54,479 Speaker 1: grips with the fact that there's this enormous potential power 107 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 1: drain to bitcoin mines on the on the grid which 108 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: is quite fragile, So they are trying to um accommodate 109 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 1: it in a way that doesn't short out their grid. 110 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 1: And the main thing that they're relying on is for 111 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: bitcoin miners to turn off their computers when electricity is 112 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: peaking so much that there might be blackouts. And right 113 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: now there are a lot of incentives in place in 114 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: Texas for them to do that. Mainly they get paid 115 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: to do it um but it's still a voluntary program. 116 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: Bitcoin miners in Texas are taking the week off to 117 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: keep the state's energy grid intact. Whether the war in Ukraine, 118 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: supply chain bottlenecks are sending energy costs higher, and that's 119 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: beginning to might give me the point that like mining 120 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: in Texas has you know, consistently increased year on year, 121 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: but a lot of the demand management programs that you know, 122 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: the Texas pol Grid operates, air air coots and others 123 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: have put in place, have happened with mostly declining prices. 124 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: There were absolutely a few folks who will operating when 125 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: Bitcoin was treating, you know, above sixty dollars. But I 126 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 1: would say just from a time basis, like a majority 127 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: of these plants have been rolled out when prices are 128 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: either falling or kind of like range bound. And so, David, 129 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: it's like, if we are having a conversation and Bitcoin 130 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: prices are back up at sixty dollars, what we may 131 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 1: find is like less pseudo altruistic willingness from folks to 132 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: be like, of course we will unplug our computers like 133 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: no problem. Um. That will certainly be an interesting and 134 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: interesting things and you're gonna see more underground mining operations 135 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 1: if that happens. Well, I remember one of the things 136 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 1: that you told me, David, is that like China was 137 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,559 Speaker 1: just very good at identifying where there were these large 138 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 1: farms because they're like, hmm, it seems like a lot 139 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: of people using a lot of electricity over there. Mike, 140 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: do you get any sense from the operators in Texas 141 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 1: or any other places that even reports it from that 142 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: they have that kind of monitoring infrastructure or they really 143 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: relying on like word of mouth and goodwill. Uh, they 144 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 1: certainly had the infrastructure to to monitor it. But I 145 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 1: think what you have in Texas is that they want 146 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: bitcoin miners to move in. They want them to plug 147 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 1: into the grid. They're doing everything they can to facilitate it, 148 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:11,959 Speaker 1: as opposed to sort of watch over it and regulate it. Um. 149 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 1: So they don't need to go underground as long as 150 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 1: they can convince a utility to give them the electricity 151 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: they want. Uh, you know, they do have to technically 152 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:24,319 Speaker 1: have the capacity. Uh, they can do whatever they want. 153 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: There's no restrictions coming up. You'll hear more from Bloomberg 154 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: Reports David Pan and Michael Smith. We'll be right back. 155 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 1: Let's talk about John who quickly who you know, is 156 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: at Deer Technologies and has come out with an interesting 157 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:57,559 Speaker 1: plan to get more involved in shall we see salvaging 158 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:00,599 Speaker 1: some of what's happening with my named David. Can you 159 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: tell us a little bit more about this. The company 160 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:07,319 Speaker 1: set up a distressed font four bitcoin miners, which essentially 161 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: means that they're setting up two hundred and fifty million 162 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:16,079 Speaker 1: dollar fund to buy distressed assets for other mining companies. 163 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 1: It's almost like vulture capitalists, like they're buying cheap assets, 164 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: like you know, in their later time they will benefit 165 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 1: from it. How do those other companies feel about but 166 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: they're building this up and basically just like waiting for 167 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 1: them to have some trouble. Those companies, Uh, I feel like, 168 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 1: you know, they they're probably looking for opportunities to sell 169 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 1: their machines. Maybe they'll get in touch with the fund 170 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 1: and see if they can actually sell some machines to 171 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: to uh deal have was fond but um at the 172 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: same time, I think it's almost like a music chair situation. 173 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:55,319 Speaker 1: You know, everybody's hanging hanging in there, and then when 174 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: the music stops, they just hope that that won't be me, 175 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 1: you know, that won't be themselves, and and then they 176 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:06,239 Speaker 1: would just like survive these cycle and make huge profits 177 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 1: later when the market comes back. David, you are planning 178 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: to be to be spending some time in Texas again 179 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: for another conference relates to mining, and you know in 180 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:20,680 Speaker 1: in the newsletter subscribed to the Boomboo Crypto newsletter, UM. 181 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 1: In the newsletter that you wrote about this, you mentioned 182 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: that a group of miners are having like a a 183 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: commiserative drinks session where they're like, hey, guys, it's rough 184 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 1: out here, let's get together and share our sorrows, you know, 185 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:36,439 Speaker 1: which which is really interesting to me because you know, Mike, 186 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:41,200 Speaker 1: you described like this fierce competition, this potentially challenging UM 187 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:43,679 Speaker 1: pricing environment, and David you're like, there are people who 188 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: are waiting for other people to kind of go bust, 189 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:47,560 Speaker 1: and yet there they seem to still have this sort 190 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 1: of collaborative relationship. Yes, it's it's a very small circle. 191 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: So the event is called Support Group for Executives from 192 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: Mining Companies. Of I think it is a very small 193 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: but very interesting circle because like you have Marathon Riot, 194 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 1: I mean, all of these companies, they have their the 195 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: mining stocks are essentially like very similar to Meme stocks. 196 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:17,079 Speaker 1: They are driven by publicity and everything. So so like 197 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 1: what you see is actually in the circle, you see 198 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 1: a lot of big personalities, especially in the c suite 199 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 1: of these mining companies, and then they don't really want 200 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 1: to make their making mistakes and they don't want to 201 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,959 Speaker 1: see their companies failing, you know, like in front of 202 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: their peers or something like that. So um, I think 203 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: that would be really interesting to see, you know, who 204 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:41,680 Speaker 1: will be able to survive. But at the same time, 205 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 1: it's the sad moment for from mining companies because they're 206 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:47,199 Speaker 1: not doing really well. Yeah, what an interesting time and 207 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 1: come to Yeah, I was gonna say, just to add 208 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 1: to that, UM, I've been to a ton of these. 209 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 1: They have meetups every every every month in Houston for example, 210 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: in other places. And what's interesting to me about the 211 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:01,679 Speaker 1: culture is that it really is egalitarian in a way, 212 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: like and they like to play that up. So you 213 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: go to these meetings and I'm sure you'll see this 214 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: at the support group where you'll have the CEO of Riot, 215 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:13,719 Speaker 1: you know, the mind they have in Texas hanging out 216 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 1: with this guy, you know, this twenty two year old 217 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 1: kid who has no money, no no stake in thinking, 218 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 1: but has a really cool idea. And they really do 219 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 1: like to let anyone talk about their dreams, so to speak. 220 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: I think because a lot of them come from that 221 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 1: background and they've had this meteoric rise and and they 222 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 1: really respect it. But it's also because of the philosophy 223 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: behind bitcoin. A lot of these folks are very ideologically 224 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: faithful to bitcoin and they believe it's like a way 225 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: of life, and you see that in the enthusiasm they 226 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 1: had for the business and the way they like to 227 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 1: listen to all ideas, but also in the way, you know, 228 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 1: it's quite Darwinian like a lot of them are waiting 229 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: to swoop in like bit DearS doing with that fun 230 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: and buy out a guy who's who's gone broke or 231 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: a woman's gone person has gone broke. Um. All this 232 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 1: sort of philosophical foundation to bitcoin and the kind of 233 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: folks that attracts and convert to the tracts feeds these 234 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:11,719 Speaker 1: phenomena we're talking about. It feeds into the way the 235 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: businesses are run and the way they're reacting now. And 236 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,839 Speaker 1: it also explains a lot about why they're flocking to 237 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 1: Texas because they can do whatever they want and they 238 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 1: have the actual systems supporting them. So much of crypto 239 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: is a tech story, and so much of every tech 240 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 1: story is a culture story, and how the culture of 241 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 1: the beliefs, the norms, the practices, as you say, don't 242 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: just inform how things happen, but in some cases determine 243 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 1: what's what those outcomes are. Well, thank you both for 244 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: joining me. It was a pleasure as always, and happy 245 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 1: to have you back in the podcast anytime, any time wonderful. 246 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 1: You can find more of their reporting on the Bloomberg Terminal, 247 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: on Bloomberg dot com or on Twitter. Mike is at 248 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 1: Smith Markets that's m A r K E T S. 249 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: And David Pan is at David Pan Underscore One. That's 250 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 1: d A v I D P A N Underscore the 251 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: Lumber One. On the next episode of Bloomberg Crypto, we'll 252 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: tackle crypto company earnings, doage coin and Elon Musk, and 253 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 1: who the must read Bloomberg opinion columnists are for all 254 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 1: things digital assets. Spoiler alert, yes, one of them is 255 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 1: Matt Levine. This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily podcast from 256 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: Bloomberg and I Heart Radio. For more shows from I 257 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 258 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Send us your comments, questions, 259 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 1: or suggestions for the show to Crypto at Bloomberg dot 260 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 1: net or find us on Twitter. We're at Crypto. The 261 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: supervising producer of Bloomberg Crypto is Vicky Verglina. Our senior 262 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: producer is Janet Babin. Our producers are Mohammed Rouke and 263 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: Sharon barriro Our Associate producers are Ty Butler and Moses 264 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: on them. Desta wonder At is our engineer. Original music 265 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: by Leo Sidron. I'm Stacy Marie Shmal. We'll be back tomorrow.