1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:17,240 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. How can a beautiful, brilliant, 2 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 1: twenty seven year old woman die of twenty stab wounds 3 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: and it's a suicide. I'm not buying it? And her 4 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: parents agree Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. As the world 5 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: whizzes by around us, between politics and this and that, 6 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: this family is leading a crusade for justice, won't you 7 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: join us? Let me tell you what happened. First of all, 8 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: take a listen to this. Nearly a decade of long 9 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: days and late night thoughts, but for Josh and Sandy Greenberg, 10 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:12,039 Speaker 1: it's been worth every minute. We didn't go away, and 11 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 1: we're not going away. For years, the couple struggled to 12 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:18,320 Speaker 1: get anyone to reinvestigate the death of their twenty seven 13 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 1: year old daughter, Ellen, elementary school teacher living in Philadelphia 14 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: with her fiancee, and the break we had in this 15 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,400 Speaker 1: whole thing. Then just last month, a small victory, a 16 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 1: Philadelphia judge ruled the couple could move forward with a 17 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: lawsuit against the city's medical examiner in an attempt to 18 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: get her official cause of death removed from the record. 19 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: As a murderer out there, a killer, somebody who brutally 20 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:45,960 Speaker 1: attacks somebody with a multiple stab wounds and let her 21 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: bleed to death and left her for dead. Though that's 22 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: not how the city sees it. Instead, investigators concluded Ellen 23 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: stabbed herself twenty times in her kitchen. You're hearing our 24 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 1: friend Brian she And at Local twenty one news, what 25 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: happened to Ellen? Well, I can tell you this much. 26 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 1: She did not commit suicide by stabbing herself twenty times 27 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 1: in her kitchen floor. That did not happen. With me 28 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: an all star panel to break it down and put 29 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: it back together again. First of all, Daryl Cohen, former 30 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:24,080 Speaker 1: prosecutor in Inner City Atlanta, now defense attorney, doctor Angela Arnold, 31 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:27,359 Speaker 1: renowned psychiatrists joining us from the Atlanta jurisdiction at Angela 32 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: Arnold MD dot com. The private investigator for the Greenberg family. 33 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: Tom Brennan. He's been on the case trying to turn 34 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: the tide toward justice for years now. Joseph Scott Morgan, 35 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 1: Professor forensics at Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath 36 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:48,359 Speaker 1: My Feet on Amazon, now the star of a new 37 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: hit series, Poisonous Liaisons on the True Crime Network. Brian 38 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 1: she And whose voice you just heard at WHPTV Local 39 00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: twenty one, and two very special guests that we have 40 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 1: been longing to hear from, Sandy and Josh Greenberg. These 41 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: are Ellen's parents. Welcome to everyone, but first to Sandy 42 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 1: and Josh Greenberg. I can't tell you how much it 43 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:19,919 Speaker 1: means to us to have you with us today. First 44 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: of all, our condolences to you for what you've been through, 45 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: not only when you lost your daughter, but having to 46 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: fight this fight for so many years. Missus Greenberg, I 47 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: just what was your reaction when you learned that your 48 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: daughter's death was ruled a suicide. It was tragic. It's 49 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: like the curtain went down, the world turned upside down, 50 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: and we were heartbroken. We were devastated, and it took 51 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: a lot of wording out because that was a very 52 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: low point in our lives. I just don't understand how 53 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: anybody in their right mind could believe with twenty stab 54 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:19,280 Speaker 1: wounds that could possibly in any way be a suicide. 55 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: Unheard of, especially if you are familiar with the method 56 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: and assessment of homicide and suicide. This ruling defies everything 57 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 1: that's logical. That is, let's take it from the beginning. 58 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: How the whole thing start. Take a listen, to our 59 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: dear friend, doctor Oz. Twenty seven year old Ellen Greenberg 60 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 1: was a first grade teacher in Philadelphia. She and her 61 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,719 Speaker 1: boyfriend of three years had just become engaged and began 62 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 1: planning their wedding. January twenty six, two eleven, Ellen's school 63 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: let out early due to an oncoming blizzard. On her 64 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: way home, she up her guest think she was at 65 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 1: home with her fiance until four forty five pm, when 66 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 1: he reportedly went to the gym in their apartment competence. 67 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: When he arrived back to the apartment less than an 68 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,720 Speaker 1: hour later, he says he found the apartment locked from 69 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 1: the inside. He claims he banged on the door and 70 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: received no response. Over the next twenty two minutes, he 71 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:22,720 Speaker 1: would try to convince Helen to open the door through 72 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:26,919 Speaker 1: text messages, he claims. He claims. He claims, according to 73 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: the fiance, he is with her until four forty five pm. 74 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 1: He goes to the gym right there in their apartment complex. 75 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:41,280 Speaker 1: He comes less back less than one hour later, and 76 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:46,279 Speaker 1: suddenly the door is locked from the inside, as I recall, 77 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 1: and I'm going to have to get the private investigator 78 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 1: to remind me. As I recall, she had been cooking dinner, 79 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 1: so in less than one hour everything has changed. She's 80 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:00,040 Speaker 1: gone suicidal, stabbed herself twenty times, and she's dead in 81 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: the kitchen floor. To mister Greenberg, this is Ellen's father, 82 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 1: that's a lot to happen. And let's just say five, zero, 83 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 1: fifty minutes. When the fiance leaves the apartment, she's fine, 84 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 1: he works out, and by the time he gets back, 85 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: she's had a turn to commit suicide, has stabbed herself 86 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 1: twenty times, and is dead in the kitchen floor after 87 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: locking the doors. Now that's a lot to happen in 88 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 1: just fifty minutes, would you agree, mister Greenberg? I would agree, 89 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 1: and I would also point out the distribution of the 90 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 1: loans were ten from the front and ten from the back, 91 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: and somewhere upward on the back, which makes it even 92 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: more ridiculous. Wait a minute, let me get mister Greenberg. 93 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 1: This is Ellen's father, and you know how painful this 94 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 1: is for them to discuss their daughter's injuries. They are 95 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 1: on a mission, and I'm on the bandwagon, a mission 96 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: for justice because this is not a suicide. Side, mister Greenberg, 97 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:04,720 Speaker 1: would you please repeat what you just said about the 98 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: injuries to the back. There were at least ten some 99 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: an upward direction, and there was what I would call 100 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: and probably has been labeled a pivotal wound that probably, 101 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: according to one of the experts we've hired to help 102 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: us through this thing, a forensic specialist, Wayne Ross, locally, 103 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: this was an upward direction that severed the spine and 104 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 1: entered her brain. I don't have to explain to many 105 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: people what happens when you sever the spine, what you're 106 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: capable of and had a brain injury. It just doesn't 107 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: make sense. Listen to what we learn from our friend 108 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: doctor Oz. At six thirty three pm, her fiance says 109 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 1: he forced opened the door to find Ellen dead on 110 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: the floor of the kitchen, stabbed twenty times in the chest, neck, 111 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: and head. It was a knife homaged in her chest. 112 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: Ellen was pronounced dead at six forty pm. Investigators evaluating 113 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 1: the scene and her autopsy ultimately stated that she died 114 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: by suicide. There were no obvious signs of an intruder 115 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 1: or evidence of a struggle. There was no suicide docte 116 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: as you just heard doctor As say, no suicide. Note, 117 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:27,679 Speaker 1: but this young girl's death was ruled a suicide because 118 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: there was no forced entry. That doesn't even make any sense, 119 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: no sign of a struggle. Would there have been a 120 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: struggle if someone had approached her from behind very quickly? 121 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:42,199 Speaker 1: To you, Daryl co informer prosecutor now defense attorney, how 122 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,439 Speaker 1: many times did you or I? You and I open 123 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: a file and we see the victim is shot in 124 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: the back And when you say immediately, well, this is 125 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: not self defense and this is not a suicide, they're 126 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: shot in the back. For pete sake, there is no 127 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:06,079 Speaker 1: forget the logic. First of all, women don't commit suicide 128 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: by stabbing themselves. No, they don't. Period. Now, if she 129 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: was trying to commit suicide, how in the world eight nine, 130 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:20,599 Speaker 1: ten times impossible, physically, impossible, psychologically, it's not going to 131 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 1: happen with a woman. I don't understand where the Darrell 132 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 1: is talking about, and he's correct. Is over many many years, 133 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: statistics have been compiled that the bible on this is 134 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 1: method and assessment of homicide and suicide. And I had 135 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: to read that, Darrell. When a daughter of a law 136 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:48,839 Speaker 1: partner here in Atlanta, who was the friend of our 137 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 1: late district attorneys death was first believed to be a suicide, 138 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 1: went to the scene. I had learned all about what's 139 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: a homicide, what's to suicide and why, and Darrel is right. 140 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 1: Agorically suicides are divided into gender, male versus female. Who 141 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 1: would use a gun, who would use a knife, who 142 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 1: would jump from a window, who would use poison? Who 143 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: would overdose? Who would turn on the gas and go 144 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,199 Speaker 1: to sleep in sexy lingerie. I mean, you look at 145 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 1: it through gender, through age, through economic divisions, how people 146 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: actually commit suicide. And it is very rare that you're 147 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 1: gonna find a woman in Ellen's position, her age, her gender, 148 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 1: commits suicide in this manner. In fact, it's almost nonexistent. 149 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: But what I was trying to ask Daryl Cohen is 150 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: when we would open a file at the DA's office 151 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 1: and we see a victim is shot in the back, 152 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 1: we automatically know it's not there was not a self 153 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:54,959 Speaker 1: defense shoot. And we know that because the person is 154 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:57,839 Speaker 1: running away and we know that it's not a suicide. 155 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 1: It's just common sense crime stories. With Nancy Grace, I 156 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: want to go now to Brian she Hand. Brian is 157 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:24,960 Speaker 1: it shean or she Hand? And Nancy at WHPTV Local 158 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 1: twenty one, could you just give me the facts, because, 159 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 1: as I recall, she's in the kitchen. Was she wasn't 160 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: she chopping something up? She was chopped From my knowledge, Nancy, 161 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,079 Speaker 1: she was chopping. I believe it was a fruit salad 162 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: at the time, and the investigators claimed that she at 163 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 1: some point went from shopping the salad to then stabbing 164 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: herself erratically and was found against the cabinet on the 165 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 1: kitchen floor. Hold on, Brian, she and WHPTV. I just 166 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: got to go to our shrink, doctor Angela Arnold. I 167 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: mean that in a loving, caring way. She's a renowned 168 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: psychiatrist in the Atlanta jurisdiction at Angela Arnold MD dot com. Look, 169 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 1: I'm just a JD. You're the MD. But it struck 170 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 1: me that she stopped to get gas for her car. 171 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: Who's suicidal would be worried. They need gas in the 172 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 1: car for next week and there's an oncoming blizzard, so 173 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: they got to be ready. Who I think, Oh, before 174 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 1: I commit suicide, let me make a nice fruit salad. 175 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:27,680 Speaker 1: And then suddenly, as they're chopping up the strawberries and 176 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: the apples, they go, you know, to hey, with the 177 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:33,320 Speaker 1: fruit salad, I'm just gonna kill myself. It didn't happen 178 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 1: this way, Angela, in addition to the pure forensics, and 179 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 1: I know Joe Scott is chomping at the bit it 180 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 1: didn't happen this way. No, Nancy's there is no way 181 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: this woman committed suicide. Could anybody imagine taking a knife 182 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 1: and stabbing themselves in the back and going, oh, well, 183 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 1: that didn't do it. Now I'm going to stab myself 184 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 1: in the front and see if I die. I mean 185 00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:00,959 Speaker 1: after one stab or slice she would have been in 186 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:05,959 Speaker 1: so much pain she could not have kept Also, there's 187 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 1: no way she could stab herself, as mister Greenberg said 188 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 1: in an upward and pivotal manner, in the back is 189 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: physically impossible. Angela. Oh, it doesn't make It doesn't make 190 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 1: any sense to me at all. And like you said, 191 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 1: fancy why in the world she when? Oh, you know, 192 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 1: there are certain signs before somebody commits suicide, all right, 193 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 1: right to stopping at gas in your car is not 194 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,079 Speaker 1: a sign that you're planning on doing away with your 195 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: life and to be fixing the salad. Those are things 196 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 1: that you're moving ahead in life. There are other things 197 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 1: that people do. They leave suicide notes, they give things away, 198 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: they get ready to be gone. Okay, but the things 199 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: that she was doing were not indicative of things that 200 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: she was doing to be ready to be gone from 201 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:59,679 Speaker 1: this earth. To Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor forensics, author of 202 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 1: Blood Beneath My Feet, he is a death investigator. Okay, 203 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 1: Joe Scott, hit me, you're gotta tell you Nancy looking 204 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 1: looking at the totality of the evidence here, just her 205 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: body alone. When you start to talk about this multiplicity 206 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: of wounds we're talking, you know, as mister Greenberg had 207 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: mentioned just a moment ago, these ten posterior are on 208 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 1: the back of her neck, injuries that she is sustained. 209 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 1: And slow down, slow down, okay, because mister miss Greenberg 210 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 1: and the PI, Tom Brennan and you as well as 211 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 1: Brian she and from WHP know this so well. For 212 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 1: the rest of us, it's like drinking from the fire hydrant. 213 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: It's too much, too fast. Now start with injuries to 214 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 1: the back of the neck. How you could stab yourself 215 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 1: in the back of the neck. It's impossible. Go ahead, 216 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: I don't see how it is, Nancy. And you know, 217 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: if our listeners will simply just reach behind your head, 218 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: okay and clasp your hands and get this idea that 219 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: when you do this and you make a downward motion, 220 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: and it is a downward motion. If you if you 221 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 1: bend at your elbows and come down with that, that 222 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: is going to give you a downward trajectory. It's not 223 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: going to be an upward trajectory. It's very simple. It's 224 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 1: not rocket signs. And for me, one of the one 225 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: of the most telling things throughout this is if if 226 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 1: you're listeners who are so bright, you know, we've got 227 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 1: so many listeners out there that are really tuned in, 228 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: if you will find a little nod on the back 229 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: of your skull and go down about the probably two inches, 230 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 1: you'll find the area where they're talking about. The second 231 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: vertebral are a cervicle of vertebral body. And the third 232 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: Nancy this blade that was later found obviously in her chest. 233 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: This blade actually passed through these two structures and Nick nicked, okay, 234 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: the spinal cord. If people will think about an electrical 235 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 1: chord at home, there's a rubber wrapping on the outside 236 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 1: of this, okay, And what that rubber wrapping is therefore, 237 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: is to protect you know, those pathways within the spinal 238 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: cord to control things at that level. At that level alone, 239 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: that's a lethal that that's lethal. It comes down to 240 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 1: the point where it's going to compromise your ability to 241 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 1: conduct motor function. So the fact that even in the O, 242 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 1: what you're saying and regular people taught is that once 243 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: that knifehood had been inflicted just below the knot on 244 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 1: your neck, yes, she wouldn't have been able to do 245 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: anything else. No, No, she couldn't. And that's what makes 246 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 1: it so very implied. Another thing I'm wondering about is 247 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: the sequence of events as played out. How did the 248 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 1: timing work and just the forty five to fifty minute 249 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 1: window the fiance was gone to work out that is 250 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:15,719 Speaker 1: when she is overcome with a suicidal urge and she 251 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:18,680 Speaker 1: locks herself in the apartment and commits suicide. Then the 252 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 1: fiance comes back and he breaks in to find her dead. 253 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, again, I'm Nancy Grace. 254 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: This is crime Stories. This case is screaming for justice. 255 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:51,640 Speaker 1: I want you to listen to Ellen's parents who are 256 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:59,400 Speaker 1: with us right now, to Sandy and Josh Greenberg. Miss Greenberg, 257 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:04,200 Speaker 1: do you remember the day you learned your daughter had 258 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 1: passed away? What happened. We got a phone call on 259 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 1: our landline from Richard Goldberg saying that something terrible had 260 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: happened to Ellie. And I screamed from my husband to 261 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: pick up the other line, you know, so he could 262 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: hear too. And I said, where's the ambulance? And they 263 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 1: said there is no ambulance and I didn't quite I 264 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: kind of don't remember much more. We kind of blacked out. 265 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 1: It's like was I guess the word is shock? It 266 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 1: was like total shock. You know, you're not prepared for this. 267 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 1: You don't expect this. Why would this happen? And what's wrong? 268 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,120 Speaker 1: And why are you calling? And why is there no ambulance? 269 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 1: Did you explain? Who is Richard? Richard is the father 270 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: of the fiancee. So the fiance what was the fiance's name, Samuel, 271 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 1: yes Goldberg? Sorry, the fiance calls his father. No, that 272 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 1: Beyonce did not call his father called no, no Jeh 273 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:17,679 Speaker 1: And I what I think the answer? What your question is, 274 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: does that mean that the fiance didn't call us? That 275 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:24,679 Speaker 1: the fiance called his father, and we do know he 276 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,120 Speaker 1: also called some other relatives, which we can get into 277 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: if you want. I do oh, I want to do 278 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: you mean he called some of his own relatives or 279 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:38,199 Speaker 1: Ellen's relatives. No, he didn't call us. We after this 280 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,360 Speaker 1: whole thing had started and turned around and we started investigating. 281 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:43,439 Speaker 1: It led us on a trail, or it's leading us 282 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 1: on a trail that is not very pretty. He called 283 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: his uncle. His uncle happens to be a attorney in Philadelphia, 284 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 1: very well known attorney in Philadelphia. And I think he 285 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:04,440 Speaker 1: called his cousin the uncle's one. Also, did he ever 286 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: call nine one one? Yes, there is a nine one 287 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: one call. I can't tell you the sequence because I'm 288 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:12,639 Speaker 1: not I don't have the facts. Tom may have a 289 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 1: better knowledge. Tom on that, Tom Brennan, he is the 290 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 1: PI for the Greenberg's Tom Brennan, thank you for being 291 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: with us. Tom. How many people did the boyfriend call 292 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: Samuel Goldberg? I'll be referring to him as Goldberg. There's 293 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:37,439 Speaker 1: Ellen Greenberg fiance, Samuel Goldberg, So to you, Tom Brennan. 294 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:42,160 Speaker 1: How many people did the fiance call before he called 295 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:47,120 Speaker 1: Ellen's parents? Approximately four? Where did nine one one fit 296 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:51,879 Speaker 1: into this scenario that we could identify? What you have 297 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:58,160 Speaker 1: to understand is there were several trips why the fiance 298 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:02,239 Speaker 1: up to the apartment door and back down to the 299 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 1: concierge desk during this period of time, and he was 300 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 1: approaching the concierge to get him to help him enter 301 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:19,120 Speaker 1: the apartment. The concierge refused because it was against company 302 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: policy and informed the fiance of that that he could 303 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:30,719 Speaker 1: not do that. There there's statements saying by the fiance 304 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 1: saying that he was accompanied, but we were able to 305 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 1: prove that he was unaccompanied when the entry was made. 306 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 1: And if you take a look at the film, the 307 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: crime scene photographs and take a look at the swing 308 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 1: walk on the apartment door, on the interior of the 309 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:58,439 Speaker 1: apartment door, that is very very telling. If in fact 310 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:05,440 Speaker 1: you hit that lock okay, as supposedly was done, then 311 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 1: one or the other portion of that lock would have 312 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:11,359 Speaker 1: to become completely dislodged in order for that lock to open. 313 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: If you take a look at the crime scene photographs, 314 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:20,199 Speaker 1: both pieces the piece that's mounted on the door and 315 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: the piece that's mounted on the door gem are still there, 316 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 1: are still intact, still intact. To Brian she and WHPTV 317 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: Local twenty one, Brian, I'm trying to identify how many 318 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 1: calls we believe the fiancee, who is not a suspect 319 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 1: has not been named a suspect by police. How many 320 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,879 Speaker 1: calls did he make before he got a hold before 321 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 1: he died the parents who called nine one one and 322 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 1: was nine one one the first call? May do you 323 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,360 Speaker 1: know that? Brian? You know, I do not know that. 324 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 1: I as you know you mentioned, and as the Greenberg said, 325 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 1: there were several phone calls that were made the sequence 326 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: of events. I did not have that as part of 327 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:13,359 Speaker 1: our investigation that we did. Give me your input, Brian, 328 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 1: she and she and what sticks out to you? Oh? 329 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 1: I mean, where do you begin? I mean, when I 330 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,639 Speaker 1: first looked at this case, you know, more than a 331 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 1: year ago, and remember I came in nine years later, 332 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 1: so we didn't have a lot of the material A 333 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: lot of the materials provided to mean buy the Greenbergs 334 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,880 Speaker 1: and their attorney and mister Brennan. But you just look 335 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: at the sequence of events. You know. When I first 336 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 1: heard the case, I thought, you know, I didn't know 337 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:40,439 Speaker 1: all the details. So I thought, you know, there's a 338 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 1: twenty seven year old woman who commits suicide. You hear 339 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 1: her parents don't believe it. You think, okay, she was 340 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,919 Speaker 1: an only child. The parents can't understand or wrap their 341 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,400 Speaker 1: mind around the fact that their daughter would tragically take 342 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 1: her own life. Then you just take a look at 343 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 1: the fact that there was twenty stab wounds, and then, 344 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 1: as we have discussed, where the were the sequence of 345 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: events in terms of filling up her gas tank, coming home, 346 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 1: making a salad, and then erratically allegedly starting to stab 347 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,639 Speaker 1: herself twenty times to kill herself with no warning signs, 348 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 1: no apparent warning signs, and there were some And I 349 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:19,719 Speaker 1: don't know how much you want to get into this, 350 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:23,120 Speaker 1: but from the office of the Attorney General here in Pennsylvania, 351 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: who the case was referred to later, I don't know 352 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 1: how it was in twenty eleven. I'm sorry they received 353 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: the case in twenty eighteen for a conflict referral. I 354 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 1: don't know how much you want to get into that, 355 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 1: but that is something that we did include in our 356 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: story as well. And they're reasoning for the suicide. I 357 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 1: know that she had had anxiety, but why anxiety? What 358 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 1: was giving her anxiety? Didn't have anything to do with 359 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 1: her engagement. I'm curious why did she have anxiety? And 360 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 1: anxiety we all all have anxiety that is not suicidal ideation. 361 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:10,160 Speaker 1: So I still am not understand jump in the diagnosis. 362 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,640 Speaker 1: Ellen's was not behaving the way we normally said. If 363 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:15,920 Speaker 1: my wife wanted to insult Ellen, she said she would 364 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 1: behave like me. That's not a compliment, by the way. 365 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,400 Speaker 1: We so Ellen and I, because Ellen, something we haven't 366 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 1: touched on, had said you want to come home, we 367 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 1: arranged I'm in a deal if Ellen saw a psychiatrist 368 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 1: who because I could not handle what was wrong with her, 369 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:34,959 Speaker 1: I could not treat her. I didn't have the knowledge. 370 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:37,680 Speaker 1: And the psychiatrist said, yes, you can come home. And 371 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:39,640 Speaker 1: this day after we had just sent out the whole 372 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,920 Speaker 1: the state for a gate a wedding. Her diagnosis was 373 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 1: an adjustment disorder with anxiety, not even a depressive disorder. 374 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we're talking about the 375 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,359 Speaker 1: death of a beautiful young girl, just twenty seven years old. 376 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 1: Teacher just got home from work, a blizzard was coming. 377 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,399 Speaker 1: She starts to get gash. She's in her apartment making 378 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:21,640 Speaker 1: a fruit salad. Her fiance, who is not a suspect 379 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: named by police, says he goes to exercise, comes back. 380 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 1: She has stabbed herself twenty times, including in the back, 381 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:33,439 Speaker 1: the back of the neck and has a knife lodged 382 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: in her chest there in the kitchen. Police say they 383 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 1: decided it was suicide because the door had been locked 384 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,920 Speaker 1: according to the fiance, and the fiance was still on 385 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:52,400 Speaker 1: the scene. We are learning also that Goldberg was stracted 386 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,639 Speaker 1: to start CPR. That's when he noticed there was a 387 00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 1: knife in her chest. He did not notice it before then. Also, 388 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 1: he tried to get the security guard to come up 389 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 1: and break the lock. The security guard wouldn't do it. 390 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,440 Speaker 1: He is the one that forced the door open, and 391 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 1: then he called nine one one, So if anyone knew 392 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 1: about the position of the lock, it would have been 393 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:23,880 Speaker 1: the fiance. Guys, listen to this. She was stabbed twenty times. 394 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 1: Half of the wounds to the back of her neck. 395 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 1: You talked to any reasonable person and they all say, 396 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 1: what the hell is going on. Tom Brennan logged twenty 397 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 1: five years with the Pennsylvania State Police and worked at 398 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:41,919 Speaker 1: the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit in Quantico, Virginia. Now retired, 399 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,679 Speaker 1: he has worked nearly seven years pro bono with the 400 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:49,879 Speaker 1: Greenberg's investigating Ellen's death. Aide, but the medical examiner's report 401 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 1: says there was no sign of a struggle. Nothing was 402 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:56,199 Speaker 1: obviously missing or disturbed. Only Ellen's DNA was found on 403 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,120 Speaker 1: the knife in her chest, and Ellen had no defense 404 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,680 Speaker 1: injuries to her hands or forearms. Still, Brennan says, none 405 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,680 Speaker 1: of that proves this was suicide. Didn't they ever hear 406 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 1: a blitz where a victim doesn't get the opportunity to 407 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:14,200 Speaker 1: defend themselves, such as someone standing at the kitchen sink 408 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: making a fruit salad and is attacked from behind. Many 409 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:23,399 Speaker 1: of the attack marks were on the back of the neck, 410 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 1: at least half of them, indicating an attack from behind. 411 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:34,159 Speaker 1: You were just hearing CBS three Philly News reporter Jankabeo speaking. 412 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: Then amazingly, the cause of death is then changed straight 413 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 1: out to Sandy Greenberg, this is Ellen's mother. Why was 414 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 1: the cause of death changed? Honestly, I don't know, and 415 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: we were never really we never got phone calls from 416 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: the Philadelphia Police or the Medical Examiner's office that this 417 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: was changed, which was not very personal, but a lot 418 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 1: of it is a big blur to me. I'd like 419 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 1: to just want to mention one other thing in the 420 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 1: forensic investigation. There are two type of knife wounds mentioned. 421 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 1: A smooth edge and a serrated edge knife wound, and 422 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 1: that hasn't come up. But I'm glad you said that. 423 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 1: I want to mention screenber because to you, Joseph Scott Morgan, 424 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 1: Professor forensic's death investigator, how could one person stab themselves 425 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 1: with two different types of knives. It's highly implausible, Nancy. 426 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 1: I don't see how this would actually occur. And I 427 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 1: have to say that based upon what you had put forward, 428 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: you know, her standing at the sink and being attacked 429 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 1: from the rear, that's a very plausible. And since that 430 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 1: that wound that I had mentioned earlier, this one at 431 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 1: the C C two C three level, Uh, you know 432 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 1: that's enough to incapacitate her at that moment in Tom, 433 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 1: I would think interestingly enough, and let me just throw 434 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: this in as well. Uh, Doctor, I believe it's Rourke Adams, 435 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 1: who is one of the most highly respected former neuropathologists. 436 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 1: That means that she studies diseases and injuries of the 437 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 1: brain and the spinal reports. Specifically, she is said to 438 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: have reviewed this report. Okay, and it's even stated in 439 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 1: the in the autopsy report, Doctor Roorke has no recollection 440 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 1: of this from my understanding, and so Yeah. Should I 441 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 1: interrupt you there? Yes, yes, sir, I want I want 442 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 1: everybody to understand. Okay, that paragraph identified as the examination 443 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 1: by doctor Rorke. Yes, doctor Rorke has denied any knowledge 444 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 1: of the case at all. She never she can't recall 445 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 1: taking a look at the specimen, she can't recall the 446 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: name of the name of the victim. And she stated 447 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 1: that she would have if in fact she did the examination, 448 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 1: she would have submitted an invoice along with her report. 449 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 1: There is no invoice, and there is no copy of 450 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 1: the report, and in that paragraph even her name is misspelled. 451 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: Me talking about that. Okay, Tom, you're telling me the 452 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 1: medical examiner has no recollection of this. Yes, what I'm 453 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 1: telling you is doctor ror in my opinion, that paragraph 454 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 1: that's contained in that autosity report disfraudment. The part about 455 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 1: that from well Jeff Scott Morgan, you're hearing what he's 456 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 1: saying about doctor Rorry. I just don't understand why. Yeah, 457 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 1: if just let me tell you kind of how this works. 458 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 1: You know, I worked for the Emmy in Atlanta in 459 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 1: the Corner and New Orleans, and when we would consult 460 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 1: with a neuropathologist, and we did a lot. Okay, we 461 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 1: would send specimens out to any local emory. I mean 462 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 1: to any local medical school where one of these people were. 463 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 1: This is highly specialized. Yeah, and your employee is. My 464 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: point is is that this is evidence, Nancy, and that 465 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:28,240 Speaker 1: there is a linkage between this. You signed these things in, 466 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 1: you signed them out, and the fact that she did 467 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 1: not invoice them. There is no record of this. This 468 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 1: is very troubling. Well, I think what you're trying to 469 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 1: get act is not just put it in regular people talk, 470 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 1: is that she did not do the work on the case. 471 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 1: And even her name is misspelled. Guys, take a listen 472 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 1: to our friends at Oxygen. When the autopsy was over, 473 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 1: the medical examiner issued a ruling that directly contradicted the 474 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 1: initial findings of police investigators, the medical examiner, and leave 475 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 1: it was a homicide. One of the most striking things 476 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 1: was the fact that a knife was still embedded in 477 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: this young woman's chest. There is a significant degree of 478 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: force probably needed to inflect that type of loot that 479 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 1: certainly is indicative of a homicide. The emmy's homicide ruling 480 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 1: officially turned Ellen's case into a murder investigation, but then 481 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: three months after her dad the Emmy changes the ruling 482 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 1: from a homicide to suicide. To you, Tom Brennan in 483 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 1: a nutshell, what have you learned as to why suddenly 484 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:40,160 Speaker 1: a medical examiner would reverse themselves and go with suicide? Well, 485 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:44,960 Speaker 1: from day one, the police walked into the apartment, took 486 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 1: a look around, set suicide and left. They even left 487 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 1: the apartment unprotected. Okay, they didn't secure the crime scene. 488 00:33:55,800 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 1: Following that, the following morning, the prominent attorney uncle and 489 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 1: his son entered the apartment and removed the victim's cell phone, 490 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:10,840 Speaker 1: the victims laptop, the victims work laptop, and the piance's laptop. 491 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:15,799 Speaker 1: The police didn't retrieve those items until January twenty nine. 492 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:20,799 Speaker 1: So what does that tell you about evidence? Okay, on 493 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 1: any of those items. To Sandy Greenberg, this is Ellen's mom, Sandy, 494 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 1: what justification was given to you about why the ruling 495 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 1: was changed from homicide to suicide? That she had no 496 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:41,400 Speaker 1: defensive wounds and I think they said something about blood 497 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:47,320 Speaker 1: on her no blood on her? Nan, This is Josh Greenberg. 498 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:53,280 Speaker 1: I'm sorry interrupt Yes, sir, Tom interviewed doctor Osborne who 499 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 1: changed it, and Tom can, I'm sure give you what 500 00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 1: to what he learned from doctor Osborne and why he 501 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 1: changed Tom was over a conference call with doctor Osbourne. 502 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 1: My last question to doctor Osborne was why did you 503 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,839 Speaker 1: change the cause and manner of death from homicide to suicide? 504 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:17,440 Speaker 1: He said, I did it at the insistence of the police. 505 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 1: I said, did any of those police officers have a 506 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:25,080 Speaker 1: degree in pathology? And with that the conversation ended. Let 507 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:28,840 Speaker 1: me go straight out to Daryl Cohen, a former prosecutor. 508 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 1: What can be done now? The Greenbergs are going forward 509 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:40,360 Speaker 1: with a civil lawsuit, but how can the killer be 510 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 1: brought to justice? Is this going to require the federal 511 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:47,760 Speaker 1: government stepping in? Nancy? I think, excuse me, I think 512 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:52,839 Speaker 1: that a special prosecutor will be what's in order. As 513 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,319 Speaker 1: we all know, there is not a statue of limitations 514 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,279 Speaker 1: on murder. But we've got to find the perpetrator. We've 515 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 1: got to find the person who killed her. Okay, let 516 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:06,319 Speaker 1: me try to rephrase it, Daryl. The local DA is 517 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: not acting, The AG is not acting. What is the 518 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,319 Speaker 1: next choice? Now that I've put it to you like that, 519 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:19,480 Speaker 1: would you agree that this is going to involve federal intervention? No? 520 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,320 Speaker 1: I wouldn't necessarily. Okay, then what can they do? Agree? 521 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 1: But Nancy, Nancy, what I would say is, first of all, 522 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 1: we need to have a ground swell the court of 523 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 1: public opinion. If you can go to a local station, 524 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:37,319 Speaker 1: television station or stations, and their reporter who you need 525 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 1: to cozy up to, will put a piece or two, 526 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,520 Speaker 1: or five or ten on air. That gets to the 527 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: local DA that gets to everybody else, because these people 528 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:52,799 Speaker 1: are elected, not selected, and they know that if there's 529 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:57,279 Speaker 1: an unsolved murder, not death, but murder, then they're going 530 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,479 Speaker 1: to start paying attention. But you've got to get this swell, 531 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,040 Speaker 1: So go to the press, go to social media, go 532 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 1: to every possible outlet you can go to to get 533 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:12,280 Speaker 1: this ground swell moving. I want to go to Josh Greenberg, 534 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 1: this is Ellen's dad. Tell me what you hope to 535 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 1: gain through your civil lawsuit? Okay, we're my goal, my 536 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 1: mission here. My purpose is to get justice for Ellen 537 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,759 Speaker 1: and yes see that the proper things happen. The lawsuit 538 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,279 Speaker 1: against the medical examiner is to try to get the 539 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:36,319 Speaker 1: certificate of death changed from suicide to homicide. We are 540 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:40,080 Speaker 1: often I forgot who said that before me. That's what 541 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:45,320 Speaker 1: we're doing. We have we have as you cut to 542 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 1: various pieces during this piece very eloquently. I might add, 543 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,960 Speaker 1: we've been on Doctor Oz, We've had Bryan she and 544 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:55,480 Speaker 1: locally we've had Janitor Cabayo. I hope I pronounced the 545 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:59,640 Speaker 1: names right. We've run on inside Edition and now being 546 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:03,760 Speaker 1: here with you and having these experts who we have nothing, 547 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 1: who we did not hire or pay for, say what 548 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 1: they have said. We're hoping this will help us go forward. 549 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:16,279 Speaker 1: We also do know, through documentation or the discovery, that 550 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 1: the authorities in Philadelphia are aware of our media efforts. 551 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:26,480 Speaker 1: It's the same district attorney in office. No, okay, that's 552 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:30,319 Speaker 1: a good sign. No, no, not a sign. Why let 553 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 1: me explain. The fellow who's now the district attorney in 554 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:39,080 Speaker 1: Philadelphia was our attorney at the beginning of this The 555 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,840 Speaker 1: reason that we went to the Attorney General, which we 556 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:44,560 Speaker 1: thought would be a better place to be. He had 557 00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,480 Speaker 1: to recuse himself because he our attorney. So we went 558 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,919 Speaker 1: to the Attorney General. And I have a special place 559 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 1: in my heart for the Attorney General because the way 560 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:57,239 Speaker 1: he handled this case, the lack of thoroughness, the lack 561 00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:02,160 Speaker 1: of professionalism, the lack of anything to do with this case. 562 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 1: I had an attorney who was a former Attorney General 563 00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:10,680 Speaker 1: for the Conwealth of Pennsylvania, approached this gentleman and asked 564 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,759 Speaker 1: if he wanted our documentation, and our documentation nancies. You'll 565 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:18,600 Speaker 1: know when I mentioned these names, Henry Lee, Cyril Wept, 566 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:23,920 Speaker 1: and Wayne Ross, included their expert opinions, and included Tom's 567 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 1: investigation investigation photographs. It includes a whole mountain of evidence. 568 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:30,680 Speaker 1: As I would say, we asked him to go to 569 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,920 Speaker 1: speak to Cyril Cyril webb Son, I believe that had 570 00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:38,120 Speaker 1: helped him get elected. He said no, and he came 571 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:41,160 Speaker 1: back saying that the cause of the computer search, which 572 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,680 Speaker 1: he did not do he doesn't have the ability of 573 00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:48,480 Speaker 1: facacity or the budget to do, proves that Ellen committed suicide. 574 00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:51,960 Speaker 1: And we've already discussed those computers, that the chain of 575 00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:55,840 Speaker 1: custody was broken. Guys, we were talking about the death 576 00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,280 Speaker 1: of a beautiful young girl. I'm convinced in my heart 577 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:03,439 Speaker 1: she was murdered, and my heart and in my head 578 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:11,120 Speaker 1: we wait as justice unfalls in the death of Ellen Greenberg. 579 00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,320 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crimes story signing off Goodbye for me,