WEBVTT - The Transformational Power of Knowing Your Gay History 0:00:00.680 --> 0:00:04.040 But We Loved is a production of iHeart Podcasts and 0:00:04.080 --> 0:00:06.160 the Outspoken podcast Network. 0:00:07.040 --> 0:00:11.440 I was coming out and living through the worst period 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.960 of the AIDS epidemic, and then I happened to have 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:18.560 a boyfriend at the time who was diagnosed HIV positive 0:00:18.560 --> 0:00:23.880 in eighty eight, and that was devastating. So I always 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:26.120 equated it to my dad being this World War II 0:00:26.360 --> 0:00:29.240 veteran who got shot in the war and survived, and 0:00:29.280 --> 0:00:33.160 I just remember thinking, this is my own war. In fact, 0:00:33.920 --> 0:00:38.800 on my desk I have a little oh bit from 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:44.960 someone who died at ninety one, just as a reminder like, oh, 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:49.400 this is real, and that those memories and those people 0:00:50.240 --> 0:00:55.000 their lives are going to be forgotten. So I didn't 0:00:55.040 --> 0:00:57.680 know that I was a historian. I didn't know that 0:00:57.720 --> 0:01:02.080 I was interested in history, but those events were important 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:06.640 to me informing my understanding of memory being such a 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:09.800 powerful tool by understanding the past. 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:17.280 As a gay kid, growing up religious and in the South, 0:01:17.840 --> 0:01:19.960 I thought being gay was the worst thing I could 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:23.920 ever be. Now, as a journalist, I'm trying to unlearn 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:27.319 that by seeking out our history, and what I've found 0:01:27.360 --> 0:01:32.120 are people and stories full of courage, perseverance, and love. 0:01:33.480 --> 0:01:37.320 In this episode, we'll meet Ken LUs Vader, a historic 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:43.120 preservationist who co directs the groundbreaking NYC LGBT Historic Sites Project. 0:01:43.560 --> 0:01:47.160 We'll learn how living through the AIDS crisis inspired him 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:50.400 to preserve queer history and how knowing our own history 0:01:50.640 --> 0:01:54.000 can have a profound impact on erasing the shame that 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:57.000 many of us queer people carry. From My Heart Podcast, 0:01:57.360 --> 0:02:25.440 I'm Jordan and Solve and this is about he Loved Back. 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:28.720 In our first episode, I interviewed a man named Martin 0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:32.519 who was actually at the Stonewall riots in nineteen sixty nine. 0:02:33.080 --> 0:02:35.840 He talked about how the night of the riot was 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:39.520 a build up of rage toward the cops, anger for 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:45.320 constantly being harassed. He recalled in vivid detail the queen 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:48.840 who ripped a parking meter out of the ground in fury, 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:52.920 and another who set the place on fire. I sort 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:56.360 of knew the history of Stonewall before interviewing him, but 0:02:56.600 --> 0:03:00.400 not in this kind of detail. I'd been a stone 0:03:00.440 --> 0:03:03.640 Wall before but never really thought much of it. But 0:03:03.720 --> 0:03:06.120 I found myself there last fall for the first time 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:11.400 since Martin's episode, and this time felt different. As I 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:15.000 was leaving and walking to the subway, I looked back 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:19.120 for a moment, and I got a rush. I didn't 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:22.840 fully process the feeling in the moment, but looking back, 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:28.280 what I felt was connection, feeling as though I was 0:03:28.320 --> 0:03:32.280 a part of something bigger than myself. I couldn't believe 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:35.640 that what I was staring at was the same little 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:39.600 two story RedBrick building with arches that Martin stared at 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:43.840 fifty five years ago the night of the riot. The 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:47.240 work of my next guest, Ken Lusbader aims to give 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:50.920 that feeling of connection to queer people all around the country. 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:55.720 He's the co director of the NYC LGBT Historic Sites Project, 0:03:56.240 --> 0:04:00.560 a website that has meticulously documented the play in New 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:04.440 York City where queer history happened, dating back to the 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:08.880 sixteen hundreds. He and his team have identified nearly five 0:04:09.080 --> 0:04:12.840 hundred sites, and all of them have detailed information on 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:17.320 exactly what happened. But as a child, Ken had no 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:22.159 idea that preserving queer history would be part of his story. 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:32.760 So why don't we start at the beginning. I'm curious 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:36.240 to know what your aspirations were as a kid, and 0:04:37.160 --> 0:04:41.159 what your personality was like when you were younger too. 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:45.160 Well, my aspirations as a kid, and my personality sort 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:49.760 of were grounded in a nineteen sixties formation of the 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:53.359 nuclear family post World War Two with that's when you 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:55.920 grew up. Yeah, and my dad was a World War 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:59.159 Two veteran. My mom at that point was a homemaker 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:01.960 who had been a nurse. Both of them grew up 0:05:02.000 --> 0:05:06.159 in Brooklyn, and it was classic Jewish upbringing where I 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:09.120 was like the best little boy. Every report card in 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:12.920 you know, elementary school was a plus for conduct and 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:15.280 you know, conscientiousness and things like that. 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:17.640 Were you quiet as a child? 0:05:18.080 --> 0:05:22.120 I was obedient. I was well behaved. Everybody knew. Like 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:24.960 the Lusbader boys, I have an older brother, where like 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:29.159 the nice kids, you follow the roles. Oh yeah, yeah right, 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:31.720 I mean, and if if I didn't, I would go 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:34.280 home and tell my father and mother, like, oh, I'd 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:36.599 tried a beer tonight for the first time. So I 0:05:36.680 --> 0:05:39.599 was very compliant. I didn't really know what I wanted 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:42.320 to do because my father had this business that he 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:45.479 started in nineteen fifty three. It was a chain of 0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:46.720 shoe stores in New York. 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:47.360 Wow. 0:05:47.400 --> 0:05:50.720 And I was sort of anointed as the second son, 0:05:51.160 --> 0:05:53.599 not the first, the oldest, that the second to go 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:57.120 into that family business, and I wanted to be a 0:05:57.120 --> 0:05:57.599 good kid. 0:05:57.720 --> 0:06:01.360 So what was the moment that you knew you were gay? 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:03.479 What was that moment for you? 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:07.360 Under ten? I knew something was different that I was 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:11.080 very happy with the mail babysitter who came over to 0:06:11.120 --> 0:06:16.400 babysit one night, And I remember specifically, at ten, my 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:19.599 mom took me to an off Broadway production of Mantle 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:22.839 of La Mancha in the East Village and I remember 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:29.080 tracking the course boys guys and picking one that was 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:32.280 to me the best looking and most handsome, and I 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:35.880 remember he had to cut off sort of top, and 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:38.760 just looking at him and being so excited every time 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:40.080 he came back on the stage. 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:43.640 What was the moment when you sort of pieced together 0:06:44.120 --> 0:06:46.560 what it would mean to be gay in the world. 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:50.480 My parents had a subscription to the Public Theater as 0:06:50.480 --> 0:06:54.000 well as many other theater companies in the city, and 0:06:54.040 --> 0:06:56.760 my mom had heard about this play that was previewing 0:06:57.320 --> 0:06:59.680 at the Public called I'll Never Forget her saying it's 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:02.599 called the line or the chorus. She didn't really have 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:06.000 the word or the title correctly. So we drove into 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:08.920 the city and we went to the show at the 0:07:09.920 --> 0:07:14.960 Newman theater, and I remember my parents sitting probably five 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:17.720 or six rows behind me, and I was probably in 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:21.760 the fifth row alone, and I think this I was 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:25.720 fourteen at the time, and the show was exhilarating and 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:30.880 the show was remarkable, and in the show, I remember 0:07:31.360 --> 0:07:35.800 specifically the character of Mark, who stood stage right wore 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:39.360 a tank top, and I could never forget like looking 0:07:39.360 --> 0:07:42.480 at him and sort of tracking him through that show, saying, Oh, 0:07:42.520 --> 0:07:44.760 my god, he's the most adorable guy in the world, 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:49.160 and how old were you? Fourteen? And I remembered him 0:07:49.360 --> 0:07:54.040 as a character dealing with his homosexuality throughout the sort 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:59.760 of snippets of dialogue he has, and I remember his 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:06.920 monologue and where he talked about performing m Oh my god, 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:12.960 performing at the Jewel Box review and his parents I'm 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:15.640 going to pick him up or I should say, send 0:08:15.680 --> 0:08:20.800 them off, and his father telling him, telling the manager 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:24.960 to like take care of my son, And realizing that, 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:28.600 you know, here's my dad and mom, you know, five 0:08:28.680 --> 0:08:32.080 or six rows behind me, and knowing that I was 0:08:32.120 --> 0:08:36.240 having a unique experience as a gay boy that was 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:39.360 very different from the experience of my parents seeing that show, 0:08:40.600 --> 0:08:44.160 and then not knowing that I was having this experience 0:08:44.240 --> 0:08:50.119 seeing this kid like struggling with his homosexuality and struggling 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:53.120 with his sort of performance in the Jewel Box review 0:08:53.760 --> 0:08:57.640 and having a father say that, And I remember that 0:08:58.320 --> 0:09:00.960 I individuated from my fan family in a sense, and 0:09:01.000 --> 0:09:05.160 I separated from my family like physically yeah, and just 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:09.160 emotionally that I had like this is my story, this 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:11.120 is I'm going to have to deal with this growing up. 0:09:11.280 --> 0:09:13.719 You know, what's my future conversation going to be with 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:15.320 my family when I come out? 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:15.920 Wow? 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:19.840 So it was such a private personal moment, and it's 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:23.920 interesting to tell that story sort of verbalize it here 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:28.760 because I don't know where that emotion comes from, you know, 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:30.400 fifty years later. 0:09:31.160 --> 0:09:36.000 And that's what art, I think sometimes does, like kind 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:39.200 of brings out things in us that we're not even 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:43.480 sure are there. Sometimes I wonder what it was like 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:47.160 for you to come out in the nineteen seventies or 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:49.880 the eighties. When when did you end up coming out? 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:51.080 And what's that story? 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:54.480 You know, my sort of coming out story bridge to 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:59.000 the nineteen seventies to nineteen eighties. I again knew I 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:03.640 was gay. I had a gay friend and we would 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:11.840 connect in you know, ninth grade, intimately. That continued through college. 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:18.000 So yeah, I mean, right, that would I don't even 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:19.720 know what we called it then, but I would say 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:23.240 come over, and vice versa. I was having a dream 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:25.920 of my high school friend and I was like, well, 0:10:26.000 --> 0:10:29.040 I dreams tell the truth. I'm definitely gay. I have 0:10:29.120 --> 0:10:32.920 to grapple with that. And I think I was so 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:36.680 concerned about disappointing people. And I also didn't have the 0:10:36.760 --> 0:10:41.480 vocabulary of how to talk about my feelings. While we 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:45.840 were really close intimate family, talking about feelings was not 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:50.280 like the you know, the sort of focus of how 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:54.040 we communicated. You know, there was a there was a 0:10:54.120 --> 0:10:57.520 sort of a thread that wove that was woven through 0:10:57.559 --> 0:11:00.080 the family of like, don't disappoint anyone. 0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:02.479 And so what was it like to come out. 0:11:02.679 --> 0:11:04.960 I mean, I have an older brother who's also gay, 0:11:04.960 --> 0:11:08.160 and it's just the two of us. So he well 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:12.760 had come out gay to my mom and dad early, 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:15.319 a couple of years earlier. And because I was working 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:19.640 in my family's business, I was in this conundrum, like 0:11:19.679 --> 0:11:21.840 how do I deal with this? How do I disappoint them? 0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:24.840 My dad asked me. I was driving to the bank 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:28.480 on Queen's Boulevard and my father said to me, like, 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:31.439 you know, your brother came out to me and I'm 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:35.840 putting two and two together, like, you haven't really dated anyone. 0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:36.920 What's your story? 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:37.600 Are you gay? 0:11:37.840 --> 0:11:40.200 And I thought I was driving him and I was like, 0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:45.360 oh god, here it goes yep. So he was wonderful 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:53.160 and said, you know, I love you. Wow, And that's fine. 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:56.520 I'm glad you were honest with me. But he quickly 0:11:56.559 --> 0:11:58.840 pivoted and said, how are we going to tell your 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:02.920 mother this? So we waited and then we went out 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:06.120 for dinner one night in a diner in Queen's Boulevard and. 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:08.360 It was like an ally, oh yeah, he was great. 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:10.040 He was really wonderful. Wow. 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:14.440 So you study economics in college and then when you 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:19.880 come home you join the family business. What is the 0:12:19.920 --> 0:12:22.640 story of how you go from being in the family business? 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:28.400 So then sort of being interested in architectural preservation and history. 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:32.120 Well, I went right into the family business. It was 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:35.839 sort of what was on the roster for me to do. 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:39.760 I didn't have a voice or even sort of the 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:44.160 understanding of the expansiveness of my own mind to look 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:46.800 at who am I as an individual and what are 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:53.400 my interests to pursue. So I worked there for probably 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:57.000 just under eight years, with the longing of like doing 0:12:57.040 --> 0:13:00.120 something else, but not knowing that I didn't know I 0:13:00.200 --> 0:13:04.439 was interested in history per se, but I always love buildings. 0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:07.600 I took an architectural history class in college. We were 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:10.640 opening up stores, and I was always going to these 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:16.480 buildings that were on downtown shopping streets in urban areas. 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:20.560 So this was in Patterson, New Jersey. Have we still 0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:23.000 have the store there where I remember climbing around the 0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:26.120 building and going up to one of the upper floors 0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:29.760 that was only accessible through a roof hatch and finding 0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:33.240 receipts from the early twentieth century in this building of 0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:37.200 the Elbow Shop, and thinking, this is the wildest thing, Like, 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:40.560 there's these receipts here, like and it tells you what 0:13:40.720 --> 0:13:43.240 was going on in that building. And I had no 0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:48.880 idea that that was called documentation, archival research and primary 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:53.640 sources information in that there's a way to connect, you know, 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:57.000 my curiosity with historic preservation. 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:02.640 Around the time, can discover that spark of passion for preservation. 0:14:03.440 --> 0:14:06.160 He was also getting more involved in the gay community 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:10.240 in New York City, making him anxious to explore a 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:13.160 world beyond his family business. 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:17.240 In nineteen eighty seven, I met my now husband at 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:23.920 a gay men's health crisis Safer Sex seminar and I 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:26.600 went to volunteer. I think he went to meet up 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:32.440 boyfriend and we're still together. However, meeting him was sort 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:36.320 of a big eye opener and revelatory and that I 0:14:36.360 --> 0:14:40.600 again went from sort of a more meshed family of 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:43.840 working in a family business to meeting this guy who 0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:47.640 was in the world more and who was out and 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:53.960 clearly had an experience of more robust sexual experience than 0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:58.120 I did, and also was much more politicized, and he 0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:01.560 was my biggest booster of hearing who I was as 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:05.520 a person. And I would say, well, in this family business, 0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:07.320 I don't know how to leave. I didn't even know 0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:09.920 what to do. I'm too old. I was just on 0:15:10.000 --> 0:15:13.160 the cusp of turning twenty six at the time, so 0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:15.720 it took a bunch of years. But with his support, 0:15:15.840 --> 0:15:18.280 I left the business, but without a plan. 0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:21.080 And walk me through a little bit of that tension 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:23.040 between leaving the family business. 0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:26.840 I came out to them probably and you know, I 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:29.520 can't remember I had my boyfriend at the time, so 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:32.280 you know, in the mid eighties probably, So that was 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:39.280 one chunk of not following the Jewish child rules no grandchildren. 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:43.600 And then when I was already established, just on the 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:47.280 cusp of being twenty nine and had talked to them 0:15:47.320 --> 0:15:49.040 for a great deal of time saying I'm going to 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:52.560 be leaving, I have to leave, my father was quite 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:55.680 upset and you know, we represent one half of this 0:15:55.760 --> 0:16:00.440 family business and what does that mean? And you're disappointing him, 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:04.200 you know, son of immigrants, as was my mom, and 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:08.440 I was leaving without a job, without a you know, 0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:13.520 a vision, and to him it was just the you know, 0:16:13.560 --> 0:16:17.680 the ultimate of you know, taking advantage of sort of 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:21.280 what he created and then abandoning him and leaving him 0:16:21.560 --> 0:16:25.000 with this business that he was probably sixty five at 0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:27.240 the time, Like what does he do now? How is 0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:30.000 this going to work going forward? So it was it 0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:32.880 was challenging, and I remember being told, you know, by 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:35.280 my mother how disappointed my father was in me, And 0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:38.880 it was painful. And I never forget driving from Queenszelle 0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:42.120 over the Williamsburg Bridge the day I left, like, wow, 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:46.160 I did this and I'm still in a whole person. 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:54.200 And so basically you realize that disappointing my parents isn't 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:56.600 going to be the end of the world exactly. 0:16:56.680 --> 0:16:59.880 I realized that the disappointment was so ingrained in me 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:03.440 and not other people, that it was really my hurdle 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:04.040 to get over. 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:18.800 In nineteen ninety one, Ken got into Columbia University's prestigious 0:17:18.800 --> 0:17:23.199 master's program in historic preservation. By this point, he was 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:26.720 proudly out and even decided to write his master's thesis 0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:30.040 on some of New York's gay history. At the time, 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:33.439 it was one of the first academic arguments to be 0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:36.720 made for preserving gay history. It would go on to 0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:40.760 win his department's award at Columbia for Outstanding Thesis that year. 0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:44.959 But for Ken, there was something deeper that was driving 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:48.760 him to want to preserve queer history. He was living 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:52.480 through the AIDS crisis, an epidemic that threatened to wipe 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:55.919 out the very existence of the gay community, and with 0:17:56.000 --> 0:17:59.920 that all the stories and memories of the community's vibrancy 0:18:00.400 --> 0:18:05.680 and strength and power. Faced with this urgency, Ken understood 0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:10.840 the importance of preserving queer history before it was gone. 0:18:11.000 --> 0:18:17.040 And so you get to Colombia and you decide in 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:22.680 the early nineties to write your thesis on the preservation 0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:27.000 of gay history, basically gay historical sites. At the time, 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:32.359 being gay is not very popular, and it's also at 0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:36.160 the height of the AIDS epidemics, so there's stigma from 0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:41.000 multiple different angles coming at the gay community. What was 0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:46.080 it like to write a thesis about something like preservation 0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:48.879 of gay history in those days? 0:18:49.520 --> 0:18:52.560 I got to Colombia in the fall of ninety one, 0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:55.679 and it was in this theory and practice class of 0:18:55.800 --> 0:19:00.200 historic preservation where we would talk about Irish American history 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:02.720 and Irish history of the building of New York City 0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:04.959 and who the laborers were that built the buildings, who 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:08.719 made the bricks, who worked in the buildings, the slave 0:19:09.240 --> 0:19:13.680 you know, quarters or the maids quarters and row houses 0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:17.000 and so forth. And it was blowing my mind open 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:23.280 that preservation could talk about cultural, social, and historic moments 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:28.879 in history. So that's what really prompted me to have 0:19:28.960 --> 0:19:31.600 a voice saying, well, what about gay and lesbian history, 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:34.919 which was the terminology at that time. I didn't know 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:38.119 anyone writing about this and doing any of this, so 0:19:39.119 --> 0:19:44.479 in some ways it was not fleek understood. When I 0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:47.919 put my thesis proposal together in ninety two, like what 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:52.240 are you talking about most people think there was no 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:56.680 gay history. There's Stonewall, but there's a rich queer past, 0:19:57.200 --> 0:20:00.560 you know, going back to in New York City, commented 0:20:01.200 --> 0:20:05.040 in City Hall Park, where men were cruising for men 0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:09.119 there up into Walt Whitman in the eighteen fifties through 0:20:10.119 --> 0:20:14.080 late nineteenth century and early twentieth century, Pansy craze in 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:17.760 New York and so forth and so on. So people 0:20:17.800 --> 0:20:22.080 discount gay history as more recent. But if it wasn't 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:25.560 for the people who were out and about living their lives, 0:20:26.200 --> 0:20:28.920 that wouldn't have led up to post World War II 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:32.560 organizations such as the Managing Society the Data as a 0:20:32.600 --> 0:20:37.000 belitist that paved the way for the post Stonewall explosion 0:20:37.040 --> 0:20:41.240 of visibility and activism that caught fire across the country. 0:20:41.440 --> 0:20:43.360 What you're saying is you were one of the very 0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:48.040 first generations to recognize the value in all of that. Yeah. 0:20:48.280 --> 0:20:52.639 I feel fortunate to be part of those first people 0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:56.919 that were saying historic preservation can be, for lack of 0:20:56.920 --> 0:21:03.080 a better word, exploited to tell LGBTQ history, and by 0:21:03.119 --> 0:21:08.679 looking at buildings, one can embed these stories and have 0:21:08.760 --> 0:21:12.480 a visceral connection to the past. That's very different than 0:21:12.560 --> 0:21:18.360 reading about history or reading about Walt Whitman living in Brooklyn. 0:21:18.960 --> 0:21:20.800 You know, you can go to see his house where 0:21:20.840 --> 0:21:23.480 he lived for a year. You can see places in 0:21:23.520 --> 0:21:26.400 the early twentieth century in New York where there were 0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:30.320 you know, tea houses operated by you know, women who 0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:35.119 were in homosocial relationships, So that visceral connection is really important. 0:21:35.960 --> 0:21:38.000 You had asked the question about, you know, what was 0:21:38.040 --> 0:21:41.000 it like at Columbia, What was it like for me? 0:21:41.880 --> 0:21:45.239 I mean, for me leaving a family business that you know, 0:21:45.960 --> 0:21:49.119 was predicated on following all the rules. I go to 0:21:49.160 --> 0:21:52.360 graduate school and have to tell my parents, yeah, I'm 0:21:52.440 --> 0:21:55.119 leaving graduate school, graduating, but I'm going to write my 0:21:55.200 --> 0:21:59.840 thesis on gay and lesbian history in Greenwich Village. And 0:22:00.200 --> 0:22:01.399 I don't know what I'm going to do with that, 0:22:02.240 --> 0:22:05.119 and I don't know if I'm putting my future career 0:22:05.200 --> 0:22:08.240 in jeopardy by being so out and open about it. 0:22:09.160 --> 0:22:11.639 So that was a risk, and I was just gonna 0:22:11.640 --> 0:22:14.720 ask that. You know, this is the nineties, like I mentioned, 0:22:15.480 --> 0:22:19.040 it's not popular to be gay, and in fact, it's 0:22:19.880 --> 0:22:24.320 perfectly legal to fire someone for their job for being gay. 0:22:24.440 --> 0:22:28.239 Were you nervous about putting your name on something that 0:22:28.359 --> 0:22:33.719 was so obviously and visibly and intentionally queer. 0:22:34.280 --> 0:22:38.880 I was nervous when I was writing it and when 0:22:38.920 --> 0:22:42.639 I was researching it and feeling that I was in 0:22:42.680 --> 0:22:44.800 this program that everybody knew I was gay. But I 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:48.439 had the full support of so many professors, you know, 0:22:48.680 --> 0:22:53.199 at Columbia. And then I was also getting connected to 0:22:53.359 --> 0:22:55.920 a group in New York called Old GAD, the organization 0:22:56.000 --> 0:22:59.919 of Lesbian and Gay architects and Designers, and I connect 0:23:00.119 --> 0:23:02.199 with them, and then we put a map together in 0:23:02.280 --> 0:23:06.800 ninety four which is probably the first map of historic 0:23:06.960 --> 0:23:11.359 LGBT sites documented for New York City ever. Looking back, 0:23:11.960 --> 0:23:14.600 so I have to say being part of that community 0:23:14.640 --> 0:23:19.600 and being connected and feeling belonging to all GAD and 0:23:19.680 --> 0:23:23.800 these professionals who I'm still very connected with now having 0:23:23.800 --> 0:23:27.640 their support and awareness gave me pause. I mean, it's 0:23:27.640 --> 0:23:31.879 an interesting profession, historic preservation by happenstance. I don't know 0:23:32.359 --> 0:23:35.640 why has a disproportionate number of gay men working in it. 0:23:36.280 --> 0:23:40.080 So that was a shining moment of like, oh, okay, 0:23:40.280 --> 0:23:42.159 you know I'm not alone here, and I have the 0:23:42.160 --> 0:23:45.439 support of these people, whether they're doing LGBTQ history or not. 0:23:46.160 --> 0:23:48.920 This is who I am. So I connected with those individuals, 0:23:48.920 --> 0:23:49.560 which was great. 0:23:50.440 --> 0:23:54.600 It strikes me ken that from the time you come 0:23:54.640 --> 0:23:59.600 out to the time that you focus your thesis on 0:24:00.160 --> 0:24:05.479 gay preservation of history, to then putting together this very 0:24:05.560 --> 0:24:11.680 groundbreaking map in ninety four of all these lgbt historic sites, 0:24:11.960 --> 0:24:15.280 it's not that much time in between. It's actually pretty 0:24:15.280 --> 0:24:18.320 short in the grand scheme of things, and you're moving 0:24:18.440 --> 0:24:21.680 quite quickly to document all of these different sites. And 0:24:22.400 --> 0:24:25.320 I wonder if there was an urgency of some kind 0:24:25.400 --> 0:24:27.560 that was driving this. 0:24:28.680 --> 0:24:31.080 So there was an urgency for me to leave the 0:24:31.119 --> 0:24:35.639 family business and figure out my next steps for a 0:24:35.640 --> 0:24:39.400 couple of reasons. One was, you know, I was twenty nine, 0:24:39.680 --> 0:24:43.119 thirty was looming, and I didn't want to sort of 0:24:43.119 --> 0:24:46.240 say I didn't make a move before my thirtieth birthday. 0:24:47.280 --> 0:24:51.119 The other part was the AIDS epidemic and sort of 0:24:51.200 --> 0:24:54.200 being very aware of it and having friends who were 0:24:54.480 --> 0:24:59.920 passing away and dying or suffering, and knowing that life 0:25:00.160 --> 0:25:04.520 fleeting and life is precious. My now husband was diagnosed 0:25:04.520 --> 0:25:09.600 in eighty eight as HIV positive, so that put pressure 0:25:09.880 --> 0:25:14.680 on us as a couple to realize, Wow, we've got 0:25:15.200 --> 0:25:18.479 to make plans and we've got to make you know, 0:25:18.560 --> 0:25:22.520 opportunities for each other. And it was a time eighty eight, 0:25:23.080 --> 0:25:27.480 you know, the trajectory of people surviving was not really great. 0:25:27.800 --> 0:25:33.480 So consciously or unconsciously, those were the ingredients that prompted 0:25:33.520 --> 0:25:37.439 me to be sort of more political and understand that 0:25:37.640 --> 0:25:39.840 I needed to sort of take actions. 0:25:40.480 --> 0:25:45.959 You're basically saying that you would become aware, intimately aware 0:25:46.280 --> 0:25:50.240 with the fact that life is fleeting and when people die, 0:25:51.160 --> 0:25:54.359 oftentimes their history kind of dies with them, and here 0:25:54.400 --> 0:25:58.520 you are in the middle of all of this death. 0:25:59.000 --> 0:26:03.679 I was coming out through the worst period of the 0:26:03.720 --> 0:26:09.720 AIDS epidemic, and that was devastating. So I always equated 0:26:09.720 --> 0:26:12.160 it to my dad being this World War two veteran 0:26:12.200 --> 0:26:15.760