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Speaker 1: Welcome to the crime roundup. This morning, I am joined

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Speaker 1: as old ways by the Queen of True Crime herself,

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grays.

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Speaker 2: Morning Sunshine. Well, I don't know about that. I'm just

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Speaker 2: thinking about thinking about Brian Coburger and those I never

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Speaker 2: used this phrase before, Cheryl, but now that I've heard it,

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Speaker 2: I think it's correct. I think doctor Bethany Marshall said

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Speaker 2: it first. Dead eyes. I don't know, just that look,

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Speaker 2: and there's never a variation in that look. So he

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Speaker 2: can change venue all he wants, which is a huge,

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Speaker 2: huge burden on the state. But I don't think it's

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Speaker 2: going to affect the evidence. It may affect the presentation.

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Speaker 2: I mean, think about it, Cheryl. When I would go

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Speaker 2: to court for trial, for trial, I would get there

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Speaker 2: super early in the morning. I would have been up

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Speaker 2: half the night worried and getting up early. But can

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Speaker 2: you imagine, just think what if you were camping out

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Speaker 2: in a tent outside the courthouse and that's where you

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Speaker 2: stayed during the trial. Because that's what it feels like

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Speaker 2: when you have a change of venue. You're not at home,

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Speaker 2: your family is far away, you have to bring everything

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Speaker 2: with you to go to battle. It's very very hard,

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Speaker 2: and the defense knows that. Now this is what was well.

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Speaker 2: There were so many interesting things, but it was cited

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Speaker 2: in court as to support the change of venue. About

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Speaker 2: the quote, international press in media focused on the coburger

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Speaker 2: murder trial. So moving from Moscow like Costco to Ada

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Speaker 2: or wherever they're going to move, how are you going

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Speaker 2: to escape international media by driving a couple of hundred miles.

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Speaker 2: But that said, Cheryl, I support the change of venue.

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Speaker 2: And I really do not believe that Judge Judge, and

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Speaker 2: I always explain Judge is his last name. I'm not

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Speaker 2: stuttering this time. Anyway, Judge Judge has taken a lot

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Speaker 2: of heat, and a lot of people close to this

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Speaker 2: case are angry about the venue change. I get it.

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Speaker 2: I had to travel two hours every morning and evening

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Speaker 2: to Keith's murder trial, and I was in so much

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Speaker 2: pain after that. I barely remember it. I just remember

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Speaker 2: my dad taking off of work at the railroad and

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Speaker 2: driving me late. Just lately, my mom told me she

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Speaker 2: drove me and she would go as well. I don't

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Speaker 2: even remember that part. I would have to lay down

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Speaker 2: in the back seat crying. I could barely open my

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Speaker 2: eyes they were so swollen going back and forth to

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Speaker 2: that trial. So I get the pain. I can't imagine

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Speaker 2: what it would be like if your child, oh God forbid,

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Speaker 2: or the victim. But let me just say, even though

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Speaker 2: many people close to the trial are very upset about

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Speaker 2: the change of venue, state and Coburger always gets what

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Speaker 2: he wants, just trust me on this cheryld trust me.

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Speaker 2: If and when there is a conviction, the change of

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Speaker 2: venue will be one less argument on appeal. And if

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Speaker 2: it is a death penalty case, those appeals are brutal.

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Speaker 2: The court will go through everything with a fine toothcomb.

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Speaker 2: You don't need one more ingredient in a poisonous stew

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Speaker 2: of appeal. Okay, wait a minute, David is fired. He's

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Speaker 2: David wherever you are. I just thought I was taking

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Speaker 2: a big sip of my Dublin morning tea with skim mill.

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Speaker 2: It's coffee. I nearly choked. It's not that I don't

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Speaker 2: like coffee. I love coffee. It's just that when you're

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Speaker 2: expecting one thing, you take a big gulp and you

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Speaker 2: get something totally different. Anyway, that said, go ahead, You're fired, David.

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Speaker 2: Wherever you are.

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Speaker 1: David, You're fired, and shut up that's pitiful. Anytime you

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Speaker 1: can take away an appeal or two. I'm for it.

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Speaker 1: And I've had so many people, you know, freaking out,

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Speaker 1: and I've tried to tell them the change of venue

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Speaker 1: ain't gonna change the evidence. It's gonna have no effect

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Speaker 1: at all on the outcome. I say, if you think

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Speaker 1: in the state of Idaho that you're gonna be able

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Speaker 1: to find a jury that doesn't have a strong opinion, honey,

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Speaker 1: you stand a better chance of finding a frog in

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Speaker 1: a dress. I'm just telling you it ain't gonna happen.

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Speaker 2: Well, okay, then there are people have thrown up the

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Speaker 2: Fred Tukar's case to meet Magee right hell, because we

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Speaker 2: know that's where he is right now. He's having breakfast

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Speaker 2: with Satan toe Cars actually hit on me. Just throw

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Speaker 2: that in for the shot value. When I was what

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Speaker 2: they called in my office a pony. A pony is

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Speaker 2: a new prosecutor that you make carry the load and

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Speaker 2: do all the work in your courtroom. I was a

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Speaker 2: pony and just lugged up boxes of files to watch

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Speaker 2: a veteran prosecutor at that time handle plan arrayment calendar.

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Speaker 2: I was sorting through it in toe Cars who was

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Speaker 2: a prominent attorney and part time judge I guess in

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Speaker 2: Atlanta City Court. Actually came up and tried to pick

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Speaker 2: me up first thing in the morning, and my mind

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Speaker 2: was just so into what I was doing, trying to

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Speaker 2: understand the system I had just gotten there. I didn't

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Speaker 2: know how anything worked. I was digging through about two

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Speaker 2: hundred skinny Manilla folders and I looked at him, I'm like,

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Speaker 2: go away, and I just looked back down. And that

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Speaker 2: was I. I was pretty rude, but you know what

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Speaker 2: he asked for it, and Fred toe Cars went on

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Speaker 2: to murder his wife. Oh she's beautiful and Brusco. Remember

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Speaker 2: the Ambrusco girls who had come to court, and they

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Speaker 2: were just there were like three four sisters, beautiful, all gorgeous,

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Speaker 2: beauty queens. And what I remember the most is she

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Speaker 2: the wife was shot in the head by some crack

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Speaker 2: addict toe Cars that I guess met at City Court

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Speaker 2: shot her in the head with her boys in the

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Speaker 2: back seat, and somebody, I guess it was the killer,

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Speaker 2: set her head blew up like a pumpkin with the

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Speaker 2: boys in the back seat. And then he said the

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Speaker 2: other one of the defendants said, yeah, that effed up

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Speaker 2: my high man, cause see he was high on crap,

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Speaker 2: like you know what, you're you're getting the death penalty,

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Speaker 2: and you're getting the death penalty and you and so

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Speaker 2: I'm getting to change it, inn you. It ended up

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Speaker 2: being somehow moved out of the state of Georgia to Birmingham.

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Speaker 2: I believe it is how it went. Why did he endo, oh, hey,

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Speaker 2: you know what, that's not how it happened. He had

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Speaker 2: he was such a snitch and such a bright I

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Speaker 2: think they moved his jail he's holding to Birmingham. That's

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Speaker 2: how that worked. Back to your point, Toe cars ended

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Speaker 2: up in a different state. I don't think it's going

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Speaker 2: to happen with Coburger. Coburger is going to be tried,

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Speaker 2: of course there, and he's going to be housed there

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Speaker 2: in a CI correctional facility in Idaho. His best chance

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Speaker 2: is to probably get to Boise. There may be enough

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Speaker 2: people there that hate the state, that hate the prosecution,

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Speaker 2: that somebody might possibly hang their hat on some police issue.

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Speaker 2: I don't think that's going to happen. I think there's

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Speaker 2: going to be a conviction no matter where he goes.

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Speaker 1: Cheryl, they said they did this poll, and like ninety

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Speaker 1: eight percent of the people said they knew about it.

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Speaker 1: In sixty seven percent of the people said they thought

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Speaker 1: he was already guilty. I again do not think across

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Speaker 1: that state that is going to change. And you know

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Speaker 1: when you mentioned toe cars the thing that I remember,

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Speaker 1: you know you obviously know. But for the sake of

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Speaker 1: people listening, I have four sisters, so there were five

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Speaker 1: of us, there were seven, seven sisters.

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Speaker 2: For Sarah, I did not remember that. I'm glad you

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Speaker 2: told me that.

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Speaker 1: And I remember her daddy, you know, because you know,

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Speaker 1: you always look for some similarity, right, Well, for me

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Speaker 1: it was obvious. You know, here are all of these

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Speaker 1: girls with this man, and he looked so broken. But

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Speaker 1: if you remember, Fred does not really a press conference.

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Speaker 1: We're all sitting there and he's addressing the media, and

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Speaker 1: as a former prosecutor, as a judge, he entertains the

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Speaker 1: idea that somebody broke into his home by the second

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Speaker 1: floor balcony. Well, at that moment, I just felt sick

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Speaker 1: to my stomach because who climbs to the second floor

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Speaker 1: balcony with a long gun? Come on, Fred, So for

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Speaker 1: you to entertain that was the first clue I had

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Speaker 1: something's not right. There's no way he would think that.

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Speaker 2: I wish I could have seen your face from that.

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Speaker 2: I could just see you looking around, going, hey, did

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Speaker 2: y'all hear that? What?

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Speaker 1: I can't be the only one that now thinks something

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Speaker 1: really bad is going on.

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Speaker 2: So toa cars was a sleazy blacket. I mean, he

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Speaker 2: would be a judge by day, be snorting cocaine at night,

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Speaker 2: hanging out at every stripper joint in town, living with

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Speaker 2: a stripper in some apartment he had rented outside the

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Speaker 2: family home. I've been in plenty of strip bars. I'm

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Speaker 2: certainly not bragging. Sadly, I didn't ever see a show.

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Speaker 2: I was there during the daylight hours, looking for witnesses

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Speaker 2: every time I found one there high on coke. But

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Speaker 2: that said, have you ever been in a strip club

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Speaker 2: in the daytime? In the daylight?

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 2: That carpet on the floor, man ooh, yeah, it is bad.

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Speaker 2: I guess it looks better at night when the lights

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Speaker 2: are flashing and it's dark.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's almost like if you go to a

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Speaker 1: horror movie in the afternoon and then when you walk

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Speaker 1: outside it's daylight, Like the whole thing is ruined.

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Speaker 2: So to me.

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Speaker 1: If you go to the strip club with the lights

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Speaker 1: on literally everything's exposed, it doesn't have the same vibe.

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Speaker 2: I'll just tell you. And I've had plenty of victim

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Speaker 2: and witness trippers. I don't have a thing against strippers.

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Speaker 2: I don't care. I only care if something as crime

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Speaker 2: scene tape around it. Then I notice that's all I

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Speaker 2: care about. I'm not What do I have to keep

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Speaker 2: saying I'm not the church lady. It's a little scary.

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Speaker 2: It's an internal scary moment because you know when people

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Speaker 2: go I'm not crazy, that means I'm crazy, or they

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Speaker 2: go I'm not stupid. Translation, I'm really stupid. So when

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Speaker 2: I say I'm not the church lady, I really do

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Speaker 2: not care. Who's with a stripper? Don't care? Well, have

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Speaker 2: you noticed how men get totally in love with strippers

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Speaker 2: and give them all their money. They pay for their

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Speaker 2: children's private school, their rent, their house note. Then when

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Speaker 2: they're totally drained dry, this tripper goes, okay, bye, can

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Speaker 2: go back to your wife. Now, as I sit warden.

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Speaker 1: No, but I just had this vision pop in my head.

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Speaker 1: Then hear this poor girl's up on stage worked in

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Speaker 1: the daylights that of the room. But she's got those

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Speaker 1: feathers or balloons or whatever she's using and you can't

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Speaker 1: notice her at all. But if she had crime scene tape,

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Speaker 1: rad drowned her. Now you see her.

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Speaker 2: And I guarantee you I was the last thing they

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Speaker 2: wanted to see coming through that door.

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Speaker 1: I can absolutely verify that.

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Speaker 2: And it would always be me and Ernest, my giant bodyguard,

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Speaker 2: that would go and well, you know what, Ernest and

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Speaker 2: I never had an argument all the years he was

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Speaker 2: my investigator, except over one thing that dam n Orenthal,

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Speaker 2: James Simpson. He actually to this day thinks Simpson's innocent.

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Speaker 2: You know what, I can't even work with you. Go away, Okay,

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Speaker 2: back to coburger.

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Speaker 1: Back to coburger.

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Speaker 2: Listen.

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Speaker 1: I think they've done the right thing. It is going

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Speaker 1: to put people out. I remember even Leslie Saunders. She

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Speaker 1: was a victim advocate that had a death penalty case

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Speaker 1: and they did a change of venue so she had

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Speaker 1: to travel. Well, the hotel they put everybody up in

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Speaker 1: would not accept dogs. Well, she had two, so then

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Speaker 1: she had to make plans for the dogs for six months.

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Speaker 1: Minor thing, but to her it was major.

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Speaker 2: Well, can I tell you when I would go out

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Speaker 2: of town after I had the twins, of course, to shoot.

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Speaker 2: I'd be miserable. They're fine, by the way, when I

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Speaker 2: have to go out of town. They live off pizza

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Speaker 2: and the house looks like bears if camped out. And

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Speaker 2: I finally get home. But that said, I said, David,

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Speaker 2: what is this mess? What happened? And he goes, They're

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Speaker 2: alive and turn around a walk hope. I'm like, wait

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Speaker 2: a minute. But then I st like, well, he's right,

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Speaker 2: they are alive. That's true, because is done. And then

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Speaker 2: he disappe But you know, I got aheaded to him.

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Speaker 2: You know, he takes care of the twins, gets them

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Speaker 2: to school, and takes care of my ninety two year

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Speaker 2: old mother, which is no small thing. A cat, a dog,

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Speaker 2: two guineas, you name it. But when I went to

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Speaker 2: the Scott Peterson Shaw, here's an example. I always lived

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Speaker 2: there for four months in Redwood City, and there was

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Speaker 2: a colony of ants that lived in my room. They

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Speaker 2: were there when I got there. This has nothing to

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Speaker 2: do with my my cleanliness. I did not eat in

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Speaker 2: the room where I picnics to leave food around. They

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Speaker 2: were there when I got there, and they were very peaceful.

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Speaker 2: There were about two hundred of them, and they would

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Speaker 2: crawl up and down in a swarm on the wall

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Speaker 2: next to the right side of my bed and I

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Speaker 2: sleep on the right side as you look at the bed.

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Speaker 2: And finally they became like pets. Okay, they were there

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Speaker 2: the entire four months. So you know, it's hard living

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Speaker 2: out of a suitcase, because I had it hard enough

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Speaker 2: just trying to case from home, much less living out

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Speaker 2: a suitcase and being away from your children, away from

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Speaker 2: what's happening. I mean, that's going to be tough, really tough. Yep.

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Speaker 1: So you're talking about a whole courtroom, whole court house

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Speaker 1: that's going to be put out. They're going to have

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Speaker 1: additional people parking, food being brought in, the hotels, the transport,

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Speaker 1: the security. All that is going to fall on a

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Speaker 1: different community that has nothing to do with these murders.

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Speaker 1: But again, I can guarantee you they already have a

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Speaker 1: strong opinion and no matter where he goes, just like

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Speaker 1: toe cars, the evidence is not going to change, The

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Speaker 1: facts are not going to change.

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Speaker 2: But I understand how the families are feeling. They say, quote,

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Speaker 2: he gets everything he wants, and he does share and

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Speaker 2: it does not feel right, and it's got to be

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Speaker 2: a thorn in their side. They're already just raw meat

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Speaker 2: after losing their child, and in such a way, and

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Speaker 2: everything he wants, he wants vegan food. Fine, you want

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Speaker 2: a new lawyer, Fine, you want this, you want that.

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Speaker 2: It goes on and on and on, and now this

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Speaker 2: it just must be like a kick in the head

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Speaker 2: for them.

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Speaker 1: It has to be all of it. But I will

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Speaker 1: tell you the last thing we want is for him

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Speaker 1: to in any way not get the fairest trial possible.

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Speaker 1: So if it's one more punch in the gut, we'll

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Speaker 1: take it, because the ending is going to be worth it, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, Cheryl, I just find it hard to believe that

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Speaker 2: any jury would not agree. And this is based on

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Speaker 2: the facts that we know right now. Now, I've had

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Speaker 2: preconceptions in cases many, many times, and you know, I'll

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Speaker 2: say it with you. I remember when I listened to

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Speaker 2: the prosecutor and I heard what the victim said, and

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Speaker 2: I listened to a rape kit nurse who said there

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Speaker 2: was a rape, and I believe the defendants were guilty.

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Speaker 2: When the police got the location the defendants had run,

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Speaker 2: it was completely empty. I was told the victims' nails

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Speaker 2: were found obviously ripped off, so I thought a rape

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Speaker 2: had occurred. How was I supposed to know that the

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Speaker 2: prosecutor was dirty and the victory because I called victim

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Speaker 2: was lying. Well, I didn't know it. I didn't know

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Speaker 2: it until one day I was called hurry, hurry to

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Speaker 2: the studio. And it was in the daytime, which, of course,

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Speaker 2: you know, my HLN show is at night. And I

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Speaker 2: raced to the studio and one of the deck Lacrosse

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Speaker 2: suspects was speak, going to speak. I'm like, okay, I

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Speaker 2: got to hear this. I watched him in the dark

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Speaker 2: of the studio and I could not look away. And

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Speaker 2: when the camera came to me after he spoke, I said,

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Speaker 2: that is the state's number one problem. I believe him.

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Speaker 2: I think he's telling the truth.

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Speaker 1: M h yep.

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Speaker 2: So to this day, everybody's like, oh, you're so wrong

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Speaker 2: about Duke Lacrosse. No one ever mentions that. Long before

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Speaker 2: the charges were dismissed, I said, that guy's telling the truth.

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Speaker 2: He is telling the truth. He was just so honest

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Speaker 2: and so open and so candid, And I knew right then.

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Speaker 2: I knew what I knew. I couldn't tell you why,

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Speaker 2: but I knew he was telling the truth.

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Speaker 1: To Burger says, Oh, I've got evidence, but I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: wait till trial to give it. Okay, you're gonna sit

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Speaker 1: in jail for one year, two years, three years, even

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Speaker 1: though you have something that would exonerate you.

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Speaker 2: Well, not just exonerate him, but find the quote real killer.

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Speaker 1: Oh Lord Jesus, here we go.

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Speaker 2: Find you real. Uh. I cannot stand by and have

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Speaker 2: you drag Christ into this. Look when I get to Heaven,

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Speaker 2: I'll do my best for you, Cheryl, I really will.

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Speaker 2: I'll make the most persuasive argument I can. I don't

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Speaker 2: know what good it'll be. I'm kind of my father

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Speaker 2: to get me in.

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Speaker 1: So the next time he says, hey, what your plan

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Speaker 1: getting into heaven? Oh, Nancy Grace is my lawyer, I'm good.

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Speaker 2: Did you really think I'm going before you? Hg ln O.

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Speaker 2: Your children already through college. I gotta get mine through college,

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Speaker 2: in grad school, whatever that might be. I'm like Lucy Lynch,

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Speaker 2: you get in there and suck up to that French.

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Speaker 2: It's not gonna help you get through grad school. If

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Speaker 2: she gives me the most evil look, and it is

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Speaker 2: well deserved. Oh and here's the thing. Do you know

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Speaker 2: how John David studies. I mean sometimes he drills in,

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Speaker 2: but he will come and watch murders only in the

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Speaker 2: building or bosh or dexter with me, and he just,

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Speaker 2: you know, glances down. Then he jumps up and makes

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Speaker 2: an a in an ap corps. Cheryl.

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Speaker 1: They're brilliant, they are, they are so gifted in many ways.

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Speaker 1: You are blessed fund measure.

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Speaker 2: I wish you could see David when I say, well,

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Speaker 2: they made another aim. The grace is coming out there

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Speaker 2: it is. He just looks at me like, what have

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Speaker 2: I done? Oh? Mercy, Well, Cheryl, got a question. They

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Speaker 2: are also saying that this is not going forward till

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Speaker 2: summer twenty twenty five. Don't you know these families are

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Speaker 2: standing on their ear.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Nancy, there's no way to even explain how

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Speaker 1: gut wrench and it would be every single day, especially

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Speaker 1: when you know his lawyers coming out begging, demanding, and

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Speaker 1: they feel like they can't even talk. They feel like

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Speaker 1: they're being silenced and pushed aside.

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Speaker 2: Well, I know we talked about this a lot, but Gerald,

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Speaker 2: there were so many warnings. I mean, how many guys

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Speaker 2: get kicked out of bars, not for a drunken brawl,

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Speaker 2: but for going up to him and going, hey, what's

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Speaker 2: your home address? I mean, I would run up for

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Speaker 2: the hills as if I had seen a monster. And

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Speaker 2: then that whole stunt which I'm waiting for him to

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Speaker 2: be charged with this about quote helping quote his female

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Speaker 2: colleague with her home security system and setting it up

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Speaker 2: so he could spy on her. What a freakazoid.

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Speaker 1: Well, listen, after I heard what you said about toe cars,

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Speaker 1: you literally dodged a bullet, and you know you immediately knew,

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Speaker 1: hey trying to come on to me first thing in

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Speaker 1: the morning. During trial, there's something not exactly right there.

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Speaker 1: And you're right, there were many, many, many flags missed

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Speaker 1: in this case. And I think once the state is

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Speaker 1: able to put a lot of this out in front

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Speaker 1: of everybody, it's going to be clearer and clearer and

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Speaker 1: clearer that this person Coburger has been a problem since

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Speaker 1: middle school.

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Speaker 2: You know, you don't hear from or see his family

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Speaker 2: at all anywhere. And I'm not judging. I don't know

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Speaker 2: what's right or wrong in that situation. I mean, they've

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Speaker 2: got to follow their hearts, but they have not been

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Speaker 2: there visiting him. And I find that to me, and

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Speaker 2: it's not anything that can be brought in front of

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Speaker 2: a jury, but I find that very probitive. I really do.

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Speaker 2: His own family is not visiting him, or maybe they

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Speaker 2: are and we just don't know it. But I find

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Speaker 2: that hard to believe too. There's no secret entrance that

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Speaker 2: a civilian can use at that holding facility that I

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Speaker 2: know of, but you know, maybe they arranged something for

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Speaker 2: them to visit, but I would think we've gotten wind

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Speaker 2: of it.

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Speaker 1: But I'll tell you, if they believe that he was

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Speaker 1: completely innocent, they would be screaming from the rooftops. I mean,

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Speaker 1: look at Scott Peterson's family. You know, to this day

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Speaker 1: how his sister in law feels. You haven't heard one

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Speaker 1: word from Coburger's sister or mom and dad, And to me,

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Speaker 1: like you, that's very telling.

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Speaker 2: I remember going to the restroom, the lady's room at

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Speaker 2: the courthouse, and when I came out, Peterson's mother was

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Speaker 2: standing right in front of the stall. Well, I came

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Speaker 2: out right there, and you know that's totally not bathroom etiquette.

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Speaker 2: You don't stand there and basically confront to someone when

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Speaker 2: they're coming out in the bathroom stall, and you know,

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Speaker 2: like you don't look at somebody in the eyes menacingly

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Speaker 2: on the elevator, everybody just kind of stare at steers forward.

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Speaker 2: You're probably one of those people that spark up a conversation. Okay,

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Speaker 2: don't do that anyway, nobody wants that. But I mean,

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Speaker 2: he gave me a look that could kill. I washed

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Speaker 2: my hands and I got back in that courtroom. But

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Speaker 2: don't worry. I look right back at her like bringing on.

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Speaker 2: They firmly to this day believe in his innocence.

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Speaker 1: They do well. I appreciate you, and I think this

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Speaker 1: is going to be illuminating for people to hear how

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Speaker 1: you feel about the change it in you. And I

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Speaker 1: appreciate you as always.

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Speaker 2: Okay, that sounds like a standard goodbye, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: I just can't hang up from you. It means the

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Speaker 1: most to me. This is the highlight of.

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Speaker 2: My wik Okay, I'll thank it. Okay, bye, love you,

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Speaker 2: Love you too.

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Speaker 1: H I'm Cheryl McCollum and this is the prime roundup

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Speaker 1: with Zones Heaven

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Speaker 2: At its sta