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Speaker 1: Las, Hello, and welcome my favorite murder.

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Speaker 2: That's Georgia Hardstar.

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Speaker 1: That's Karen Kilgarrett.

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Speaker 3: And today we are very excited we have an amazing journalist, producer,

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Speaker 3: educator who is here with us. She is the co

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Speaker 3: founder of NPR's Radio Ambulante, and she heads her own

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Speaker 3: multi lingual podcast production company, A Donde Media.

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Speaker 4: And she's the creator and host of Exactly Right Media's

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Speaker 4: first bilingual podcast, Today's John of God, which follows the

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Speaker 4: rise and fall of a celebrated Brazilian spiritual healer who

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Speaker 4: built a holy empire and the criminal activity that made

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Speaker 4: it possible and the powerful network of believers who protect

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Speaker 4: him even to this day.

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Speaker 2: Please welcome Martina Castro. Excited to be here.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you've been here. Is incredible because it means it's happening.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it really is.

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Speaker 1: It's happening.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's been three years. Is that truly? It was

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Speaker 2: pitched internally We did the math in twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, I mean just that's like the initial germ

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Speaker 2: of the idea and then us like finding you, pitching

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Speaker 2: it to you guys, us working on the development and

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Speaker 2: like let's make sure this is like a good story.

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Speaker 2: I mean, goodness, the phases. Life has changed the world

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Speaker 2: has changed for different people now.

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Speaker 1: Really, I know.

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Speaker 2: When we first met.

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Speaker 3: I remember we went to a Christmas party and it

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Speaker 3: was one of those things where like walking in it

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Speaker 3: kind of uncomfortable, was like a business Christmas party.

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Speaker 2: And then across the room.

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Speaker 3: We see Martina and we were just like by your side,

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Speaker 3: and it was like it was that feeling of like, oh,

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Speaker 3: thank god, this is the person we're working with, because

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Speaker 3: we'd already had like just signed yes.

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Speaker 2: And I remember we were really early, which was to

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Speaker 2: the part I.

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Speaker 1: Don't do that.

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Speaker 2: We did it, and I was so excited because I

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Speaker 2: recognized some other people who were there but then but

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Speaker 2: I didn't really know anyone. And then we locked eyes

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Speaker 2: and at first it was a little awkward because it's

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Speaker 2: like we hadn't met in person yet. But immediately I

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Speaker 2: felt like, Okay, this is a real person. You can

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Speaker 2: talk about all the things. We talked about a lot

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Speaker 2: of things, yes we did. I just felt like that

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Speaker 2: human warmth that you really want.

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Speaker 3: That's exactly how I felt about you, where it was

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Speaker 3: like this person who you know, the intro that I

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Speaker 3: just gave you is like badass bitch, you know, girl

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Speaker 3: boss whatever, and Martine is just sitting there like, I'm

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Speaker 3: so embarrassed we were here first.

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Speaker 2: I made it. It was just true about podcast people, like

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Speaker 2: we are extroverts sometimes maybe when there's a microphone or

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Speaker 2: when we're doing our work, but like, I feel like

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Speaker 2: there's an introvert in all of us, because otherwise what

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Speaker 2: would we'd be doing something else?

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Speaker 4: Right, And journalists too, you're so used to like kind

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Speaker 4: of being in the background and service.

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Speaker 2: It's so bizarre. It's actually like a little bit of

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Speaker 2: a conflict because you do have to talk to people.

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Speaker 2: I remember that so shy and so scared, like the

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Speaker 2: first press conference right to go and like shove a

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Speaker 2: mic in front of like I don't know, like a

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Speaker 2: presidential candidate or some you know, really important people. But

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Speaker 2: you just do it because the work. I guess like

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Speaker 2: there's some internal perfectionist pressure that gets you over the

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Speaker 2: hump of the shy kid. Yeah, the shy kids and

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Speaker 2: all of us. I really believe we're all kind of

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Speaker 2: little shy kids.

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Speaker 3: Well, you kind of were a little shy when you

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Speaker 3: were pitching this, and we had all these choices of

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Speaker 3: who could host it, and it was like this Churce

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Speaker 3: would be great and that person would be great. And

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Speaker 3: then Martinez also like, also, I'll do it if you

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Speaker 3: want me. I was like, yes, have her do it.

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Speaker 3: It's her show, it's her thing. She knows how to

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Speaker 3: do this. Like why would we have anybody else but you, the.

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Speaker 2: Creator do it? I just you know, it's like this

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Speaker 2: thing of just not wanting to be presumptuous and like, really,

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Speaker 2: I'm really cool with anybody doing it, Like I really

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Speaker 2: am a producer at heart. I'm not Like when I

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Speaker 2: started in journalism, it was like everybody wanted to be

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Speaker 2: in front of the mic and everybody wanted to be

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Speaker 2: in a rep arder, And I was like, can I

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Speaker 2: just learn how to be the person in the background

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Speaker 2: who makes it all happen? And I remember some like

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Speaker 2: career journalists looking at me and being like, you're gonna

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Speaker 2: make it far and you're gonna make it fast because

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Speaker 2: nobody wants to do.

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Speaker 1: What you want to do.

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Speaker 3: It's hard, but I do think like you're that position

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Speaker 3: when you got those amazing interviews, the people, the victims

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Speaker 3: and the people that actually went through this story. Everything

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Speaker 3: was connected in this way where it wasn't just kind

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Speaker 3: of like and some outside person pulling you through chapter

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Speaker 3: by chapter. It's Martine's story. You were the one that

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Speaker 3: went and got it, found the people, all of that,

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Speaker 3: and you can just really feel it in those episodes.

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Speaker 4: Well, why don't you tell us a little bit about

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Speaker 4: like what drew you to the story? It's such a

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Speaker 4: fascinating story, Like how did you find it? What made

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Speaker 4: you interested in it?

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, I had a team that we were

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Speaker 2: all looking for stories and at the time, we're like,

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Speaker 2: all right, true crime. It's like a thing. We had

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Speaker 2: done a heist podcas cast, which was really fun and

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Speaker 2: you know, it's technically true crime, and it was like light.

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Speaker 2: You know, nobody died. It was just kind of I mean,

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Speaker 2: you know, people got robbed or whatever, but we know

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Speaker 2: you very well get it. And I was like, let's

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Speaker 2: keep like looking for something that's not quite on the

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Speaker 2: nose true crime, but is really us and like our

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Speaker 2: company from the beginning, my goal was let's get out

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Speaker 2: of the US. It's remind Americans that there are stories

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Speaker 2: that are really compelling to you that are not necessarily

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Speaker 2: in your language and told, you know, maybe in many languages.

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Speaker 2: And that happened outside the US, but touch you, you know,

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Speaker 2: because we're all interconnected in the.

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Speaker 4: End, like the Oprah's at the middle of all of

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Speaker 4: the I found that was in it.

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Speaker 2: I was like, that's done, done check, Like, let's just

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Speaker 2: figure this out. So I greenlight it once I really

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Speaker 2: could like click all those boxes, you know, Like I

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Speaker 2: really wanted it to like have some It had to

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Speaker 2: be international. It had to, I mean by virtue of

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Speaker 2: being multilingual. But I really was looking for people who

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Speaker 2: some people who spoke English because we did want to

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Speaker 2: have it being primarily in English, but it touched the

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Speaker 2: US somehow. It had to be a story that wasn't

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Speaker 2: over overdone, you know, like what are we bringing to

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Speaker 2: it that hasn't been done already? Yeah, but might be

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Speaker 2: a touch point, like it's not so obscure. I mean

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Speaker 2: it's hard, it's all. We have to check a lot

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Speaker 2: of boxes. Lastly, because you know, I still think we

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Speaker 2: have a really high bar for the kinds of things

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Speaker 2: we're willing as Americans to consume that are outside of

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Speaker 2: the US, right, but this one really did. I mean

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Speaker 2: it's about a spiritual guru who's a healer. So that

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Speaker 2: already got me because it's not someone who's necessarily going

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Speaker 2: to help you find your like salvation after life. It

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Speaker 2: is someone who's going to help you in your time

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Speaker 2: of deepest need, either for you or your loved one.

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Speaker 2: So that's just like, oh, I want that at some

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Speaker 2: point one day, you know, like I could just imagine

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Speaker 2: myself there very very quickly. And you know it's based

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Speaker 2: in Brazil, which Brazilian culture and is really it's compelling

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Speaker 2: to me. It's it's also really a little unknown, and

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Speaker 2: so I kind of was intrigued to understand a little

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Speaker 2: bit more of what was happening, because it's really not

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Speaker 2: just one religious belief it's a mix of beliefs that

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Speaker 2: are coming together in this human being. And then the

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Speaker 2: Oprah thing, I was just like, wait, this is not

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Speaker 2: just some obscure dude, like he is being promoted and

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Speaker 2: speaking at some of the most prestigious like platforms you

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Speaker 2: have as a spiritual leader. What and then you find

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Speaker 2: out everything he did and we're going to avoid spoilers,

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Speaker 2: but my goodness, we know that he did quite a lot.

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Speaker 4: It was so interesting that there were so many people

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Speaker 4: you interviewed that were not from there that came to

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Speaker 4: find him specifically did you do you have belief that

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Speaker 4: like someone can be a healer, because being a spiritual

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Speaker 4: blober is one thing. You know, it's like they can

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Speaker 4: promise you some thing and it's not tangible, but being

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Speaker 4: like I'll fix the thing. That's like a big promise.

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Speaker 2: Yeah it is, but it's not that far, like you know,

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Speaker 2: from my cultural consciousness, it's incredibly close for people who

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Speaker 2: are from Brazil like that. Every Brazilian I spoke to

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Speaker 2: was like, this is not weird, right, yes, but then

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Speaker 2: like I don't know my dad, like he would rather

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Speaker 2: go see he goes to see this guy that he

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Speaker 2: calls the wasto so a wasaio is weso bone the

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Speaker 2: bone guy. Okay, so you'd think maybe he's a chiropractor,

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Speaker 2: but he calls himself the bone guy. And he would

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Speaker 2: rather go see that guy who promises to fix, you know,

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Speaker 2: his arthritis, then to go see a Western doctor. And

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Speaker 2: so it's not that far from me to imagine a

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Speaker 2: person who's like a lay person, not a doctor, not

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Speaker 2: a studied physician, who has some healing abilities. And I

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Speaker 2: don't think that that's like that weird for most anyone

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Speaker 2: who believes in any new agey stuff. It's not that

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Speaker 2: far from our beliefs. Like it goes deep later, you know,

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Speaker 2: but on the surface, that's like kind of all of

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Speaker 2: us could maybe believe that there's a man out there

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Speaker 2: with the ability to heal things that are incurable. I

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Speaker 2: think you.

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Speaker 3: Brought that up a lot when we would like go

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Speaker 3: through the scripts and talking about those interviews where it's

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Speaker 3: really important, which I really liked. It was really important

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Speaker 3: to you to keep on underlining this was very normal

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Speaker 3: in this culture. These aren't people who fell for something.

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Speaker 3: These aren't people who weren't using their logical mind. It's

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Speaker 3: like the promise plus the culture that was already there,

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Speaker 3: plus the desperation of anybody in a situation where it's

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Speaker 3: like you're learning that someone has stage four cancer and

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Speaker 3: the Western doctors are telling you they don't have anything

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Speaker 3: else for you. Of course, these like it's a person

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Speaker 3: taking advantage of that position, that desperation, and then the

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Speaker 3: belief that's kind of already there. You go in there

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Speaker 3: and you're just kind of like, oh my god, it's working,

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Speaker 3: and it's working for other people, it could work for me.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it was. The testimonials I think go very far

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Speaker 2: because once you get there. I mean even there was

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Speaker 2: this journalists that we interviewed who went to just see

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Speaker 2: what it was, like, this Australian journalist and he's like,

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Speaker 2: there's all these people milling about in white you know,

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Speaker 2: kind of like saying they were cured by him. At

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Speaker 2: some point you're like, well, maybe maybe they were. You know,

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Speaker 2: they show you their papers, they show you like their

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Speaker 2: their X rays and their documents, saying like how they

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Speaker 2: before they had this, and how they have this, like

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Speaker 2: they believe so fervently. And then there were people who

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Speaker 2: were just taking a chance. You know. Some of the

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Speaker 2: people who got wrapped up in this were just at

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Speaker 2: the end of their ability, like that no doctor was

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Speaker 2: willing to continue helping them. It was like that's it,

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Speaker 2: there's no more answers. Maybe let's just give this a try.

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Speaker 2: Let's just see, you know, and you know it's called

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Speaker 2: two faced. So what was really interesting to me was

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Speaker 2: to explore that kind of human being. I mean, I'm

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Speaker 2: like both of you, like you know, when I listen

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Speaker 2: to your show, like just the exploring of the human

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Speaker 2: mind and the capacity for a human being to do

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Speaker 2: some really dark things. It's hard for me. I want

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Speaker 2: to believe in the goodness of every human like, and

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Speaker 2: I think a lot of us do, but there are

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Speaker 2: people out there doing really horrible things. And so there's

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Speaker 2: something really compelling to me about a person who's able

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Speaker 2: to live a double life and show you one thing

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Speaker 2: and really be so convincing. Yeah, to the level of

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Speaker 2: being like he healed. Presidents, Supreme Court justices, really famous

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Speaker 2: celebrities and people of all walks of life. Doctors have

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Speaker 2: gone and been like, no, he's real, you know, and

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Speaker 2: then this other side that and learn I feel like

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Speaker 2: what I've learned is that they don't get away with

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Speaker 2: it by themselves. It's not like that other face, that

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Speaker 2: other side is only only they know, right, it's not.

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Speaker 2: There's actually a lot of people who know and who

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Speaker 2: see that other side, and part of them I don't

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Speaker 2: want to say magic, but the manipulation, the incredible ability

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Speaker 2: of this kind of human being is to really get

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Speaker 2: everyone to play ball and just kind of go along

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Speaker 2: with it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, because it's one thing to be like, I'm

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Speaker 3: going to promise you this healing and to get you

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Speaker 3: out of this very desperate situation. It's another thing to

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Speaker 3: then oh, now you're here I'm going to lock a door,

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Speaker 3: take advantage, you know, all the darkness, and it's bad

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Speaker 3: enough that he's not actually doing the things he's doing,

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Speaker 3: or maybe it's maybe working for certain people, and that

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Speaker 3: is an interesting thing of like there are people who

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Speaker 3: really do a test that like I went in there,

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Speaker 3: I got this, you know, he told me the thing

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Speaker 3: to do, I got this procedure. It didn't hurt, and

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Speaker 3: suddenly I was okay, Well, what's interesting is that I

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Speaker 3: think we set out to never decide on that one.

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Speaker 2: I was like, you know, I feel like we're going

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Speaker 2: to alienate people if we're trying to actually figure out

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Speaker 2: whether he's a real healer or not.

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Speaker 4: It's like a yes or no answer exactly the point For.

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Speaker 2: Me, it was like, no, let's like actually maybe pretend, like,

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Speaker 2: let's believe that he actually does have a power, because

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Speaker 2: many of the people who came to speak with us,

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Speaker 2: like the survivors, still believe he has this power, but

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Speaker 2: that he was corrupted or that he used it for

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Speaker 2: bad purposes. But like I didn't want to put make

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Speaker 2: that the purpose because that's that really wasn't interesting as

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Speaker 2: interesting to me. He might actually have some gift, it's

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Speaker 2: really about how he presented himself in very very very

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Speaker 2: very different ways in order to get away with some heinous.

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Speaker 3: Things, and that idea of like you have the power,

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Speaker 3: then you're building a little spa, you're building a little commune,

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Speaker 3: you build this little city. It grows and grows. People

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Speaker 3: also start making money off of it, not just you.

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Speaker 3: Then it just becomes that thing where it's like too

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Speaker 3: big to fail. But we're talking about spiritual healing, so

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Speaker 3: it's like it gets more and more.

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I did like the story itself when we first started

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Speaker 3: talking about it, just like how can this be real?

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Speaker 2: And how can it have gone on for as long

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Speaker 2: as it did? So long? So long? Four decades? Yeah wow, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: but it's exactly what you're talking about, like a really small,

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Speaker 2: middle of nowhere town that thrived thanks to this tourism.

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Speaker 2: And the international element was really compelling because for a

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Speaker 2: while he was just healing people in Brazil. But there

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Speaker 2: was a turn, there was a moment where he had

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Speaker 2: some ingenious ideas to grow and because there are many

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Speaker 2: other spiritual healers in Brazil, many that are like him

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Speaker 2: and do kind of the same types of healing, but

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Speaker 2: they didn't get as famous as he did, so he

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Speaker 2: was like smart enough to like be like, no, what's

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Speaker 2: really going to make this take off is foreigners. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: And so he had people who like the first few

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Speaker 2: people who ended up going ended up becoming tour guides.

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Speaker 2: He would like when they came up. So there's like

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Speaker 2: the healing process, the treatment. It was really like a

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Speaker 2: variety of activities that happened at this compound called Lacasa.

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Speaker 2: But the big thing, the main event, was like this

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Speaker 2: line of people waiting to see him, and you would

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Speaker 2: see him for like, you know, a few seconds, ten seconds,

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Speaker 2: thirty seconds. And some people when they were i mean,

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Speaker 2: one of the people we talked to, claims that they

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Speaker 2: were spies. You know. There were people helpers who would

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Speaker 2: be like, oh he speaks English, oh he speaks French.

306
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Speaker 2: And then they would be like so they'd get up

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Speaker 2: to speak to him, and he'd be like, you do

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Speaker 2: his thing where he's channeling a spirit and he's like,

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Speaker 2: your mission now is to bring people from France or

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Speaker 2: to bring people from the United States or whatever. And

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Speaker 2: so they would become I mean, and they felt so

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Speaker 2: special and honored and chosen, right, I mean, that's part

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Speaker 2: of it, and they would bring people and they could charge.

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Speaker 2: They were allowed to make money off of this, so

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Speaker 2: you know, then other people would become tour guides who

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Speaker 2: had come with those tours guys, and it just was

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Speaker 2: like a it just really spread very quickly. Yeah, many

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Speaker 2: many different countries touched by this movement.

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Speaker 4: It's got kind of the CULTI vibe going on, but

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Speaker 4: also like a multi level marketing things, pyramid schemes, but

321
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Speaker 4: with people's health, and that's what we're most vulnerable about,

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Speaker 4: is like my dad is sick.

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Speaker 5: Can you help me? You know, that's just sickens the

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Speaker 5: last you know. Yeah, that's part of those eye surgeries.

325
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Speaker 5: To that part, there are details and.

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Speaker 3: Maybe that's like a spoiler alert, but like there were

327
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Speaker 3: parts of this when we would like be listening to

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Speaker 3: tape that Martino w'send or whatever, and everyone's like.

329
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Speaker 2: I don't it's it's another one of those things.

330
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Speaker 3: So these procedures are so harrowing listening to people's stories

331
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Speaker 3: about them.

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Speaker 2: It's crazy. Yeah, I mean we went back and forth

333
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Speaker 2: on when to put one of those scenes, but like

334
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Speaker 2: obviously one had to be in there, Like I think

335
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Speaker 2: we ended up putting it in the beginning of episode one.

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Speaker 1: It's not too bad either. There's a little mention of

337
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Speaker 1: any thing.

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Speaker 2: Thank you everything else, it's like really bad if you

339
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Speaker 2: want to watch it, like if you want to google it,

340
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Speaker 2: I go YouTube, okay, but like most of you are

341
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Speaker 2: not going to do that probably and we describe it

342
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Speaker 2: but not It's not gory, but it was hard to watch.

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Speaker 2: I'll tell you, Like I had to write you know,

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Speaker 2: that part of the script and I was like, I

345
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Speaker 2: don't think I can watch this one more time, you know,

346
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Speaker 2: like it is just it's intense, but still people are

347
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Speaker 2: coming out the other side being like pain free.

348
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Speaker 4: Right.

349
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Speaker 3: That was an amazing experience where you're just like what,

350
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Speaker 3: how how does a person get to that point where

351
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Speaker 3: that's the experience they're having on that end.

352
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Speaker 2: We talked a lot about that too. It's not quite

353
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Speaker 2: we don't talk about it much in the series, but

354
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Speaker 2: like that placebo effect was very present, Like I did

355
00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:43,719
Speaker 2: talk about it with on a lot of the interviews,

356
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Speaker 2: like well what was happening there? Because the treatment is

357
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Speaker 2: you know, getting to see him and then he would

358
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Speaker 2: like either send you to like this hall where he

359
00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:58,000
Speaker 2: would heal people by channeling spirits all at once, So

360
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Speaker 2: you'd be sitting and praying and then he met itating

361
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Speaker 2: and he would he'd be chiling spirits and he would

362
00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,400
Speaker 2: heal everybody in that room, plus anyone who wrote in

363
00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:08,960
Speaker 2: like a letter or who brought a picture of someone.

364
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,000
Speaker 2: He would heal people like thousands of miles away. That

365
00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:13,360
Speaker 2: was the idea that he was chileling spirits that could

366
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Speaker 2: heal at any distance, or you could ask for a

367
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Speaker 2: physical surgery. And you know, one of the scholars we

368
00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:26,080
Speaker 2: spoke with, she was like basically living with the movement

369
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Speaker 2: at the Kassa for a while, and she reports hearing

370
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Speaker 2: him say that it was just to get people to

371
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Speaker 2: believe that it was a spectacle. That was required to

372
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Speaker 2: get foreigners to really believe the spirits could do things,

373
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Speaker 2: because he did invisible surgeries right on you. But like

374
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Speaker 2: the visible surgery was no anesthetics, like bare hand man,

375
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Speaker 2: I mean, no gloves. The most doctoral thing he did

376
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Speaker 2: was have like you know, a scalpel, a little like

377
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Speaker 2: tin can with some water and he would like kind

378
00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:02,360
Speaker 2: of rense it up and then scrape your eyeballs.

379
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Speaker 4: There were like shades of lobotomy. I was so uncomfortable.

380
00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:08,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, but then you yeah, you would see these and

381
00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:11,919
Speaker 2: like people would be smiling. They'd bleed a little bit,

382
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:14,000
Speaker 2: but not massive amounts of bloods. People are like, whoa,

383
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Speaker 2: what's happening like and you would just stitch you up

384
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Speaker 2: right there, you know, no one would get infected like

385
00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:22,920
Speaker 2: that was the other who knows right, Yeah, but like

386
00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:26,920
Speaker 2: a lot of people believe that somehow these surgeres would

387
00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:28,360
Speaker 2: happen and people would get better.

388
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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you're not going to be the one person.

389
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Speaker 5: It's like actually two weeks later, you know, like this

390
00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:33,600
Speaker 5: swelled up.

391
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:40,320
Speaker 4: Not complaining and not saying, not being the one f.

392
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Speaker 3: Person Yeah, yeah, which a lot of those things do.

393
00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:46,080
Speaker 3: That's kind of the thing of are you going to

394
00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,240
Speaker 3: say the old psychology test, there's smoke coming out from

395
00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:50,600
Speaker 3: under the door. Are you're going to be the one

396
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:52,960
Speaker 3: that says, hey, is anyone else seeing this? If everyone

397
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:54,360
Speaker 3: else acts like they're.

398
00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,760
Speaker 2: Not, Like, it's tough. It's tough, and you're already in

399
00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:59,200
Speaker 2: the position you want it to be real. You need

400
00:19:59,240 --> 00:19:59,760
Speaker 2: it to be real.

401
00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,040
Speaker 4: Onto Brazil to make it exactly.

402
00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:06,640
Speaker 2: You've gone to so much lengths it's like expensive. You're

403
00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:09,600
Speaker 2: surrounded by people and the vibe of the town. Everyone

404
00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:13,679
Speaker 2: talked about it like just this euphoria because not that

405
00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:17,240
Speaker 2: it was joyous, so to speak, but more like I'm

406
00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:19,879
Speaker 2: with my people type of vibe because a lot of

407
00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:22,840
Speaker 2: sick people, but people who maybe had the same illness

408
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,399
Speaker 2: as you. And you would sit across these cafes that

409
00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:27,640
Speaker 2: were like where you could get a flat white, and

410
00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:30,240
Speaker 2: you know, it was like very international too. At some

411
00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:34,360
Speaker 2: point it was catering to an international crowd, like vegetarian

412
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,080
Speaker 2: meals and like all the things, and then you'd be

413
00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:39,440
Speaker 2: speaking to strangers and be like, well, what what kind

414
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:41,360
Speaker 2: of cancer do you have? And like, oh, well, I'm

415
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:45,639
Speaker 2: taking this and what did you He also reportedly would

416
00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:50,760
Speaker 2: tell people to continue their medical treatment, like we have

417
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:55,439
Speaker 2: found cases of people claiming the opposite. But within the

418
00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:57,919
Speaker 2: belief system, it wasn't like you were supposed to just

419
00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,960
Speaker 2: give up everything. It was like, this supposed to treat

420
00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:03,719
Speaker 2: and this is where it gets me. It's supposed to

421
00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:09,800
Speaker 2: treat the inner illness of your soul that led to

422
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:15,240
Speaker 2: the manifestation of this physical ailment, right. I mean, I

423
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:16,479
Speaker 2: don't know if I believe that right now, but there

424
00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:17,920
Speaker 2: have been times in my life where I was like, yeah,

425
00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:22,639
Speaker 2: you know, if I am really tired or there's something

426
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,840
Speaker 2: you know, you can imagine that if you're not well,

427
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:29,159
Speaker 2: like soul wise, that your body would get sick. So

428
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:30,720
Speaker 2: it's not like it doesn't make sense.

429
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,400
Speaker 4: That totally makes sense to me, like a negativity that

430
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:38,879
Speaker 4: just yeah, manifests into whatever. Yeah, and then we treat

431
00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,119
Speaker 4: the symptoms instead of treating the core blah blah blah exactly.

432
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:44,800
Speaker 2: So they were like, no, we're treating the core issue.

433
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,040
Speaker 2: And the core issue often had to do with your

434
00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:50,160
Speaker 2: past lives, so there's a little bit of that too,

435
00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,280
Speaker 2: like of your karma. And you know, one of our

436
00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:57,560
Speaker 2: survivors was told that her father was sick because she

437
00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,600
Speaker 2: and her father were linked in a past life where

438
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:02,879
Speaker 2: she did you know, they were involved in an altercation

439
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:06,720
Speaker 2: and he was being punished for that past life thing.

440
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:08,320
Speaker 3: You know.

441
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:13,760
Speaker 2: It just different shades of different kinds of belief systems,

442
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,680
Speaker 2: New Age belief systems, Buddhism, things that they're not that

443
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:22,800
Speaker 2: inaccessible that you're like, well, maybe, yeah, that's all he needs.

444
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 2: It just needs a little window, like maybe.

445
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,040
Speaker 3: And the Western people it sounds like Catholicism. There's something

446
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:30,239
Speaker 3: inherently wrong with you.

447
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,680
Speaker 2: If you're sick, what did you do to deserve it?

448
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,920
Speaker 3: You need to repent like that. You know, it's tapping

449
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,800
Speaker 3: into a lot of those kinds of things. Then it's

450
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:43,200
Speaker 3: you know, suddenly you see Oprah's talking about it. Oprah's

451
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,400
Speaker 3: like giving it a platform of what is this?

452
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:46,240
Speaker 2: Is this real?

453
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,320
Speaker 3: And suddenly there's all the people in America who don't

454
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,800
Speaker 3: have a doctor, who can't afford insurance, all the things

455
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,120
Speaker 3: where they're like, we need an option and that kind

456
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,680
Speaker 3: of like terrible perfect storage.

457
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that was the peak of his pop ularity

458
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,000
Speaker 2: when Oprah went and she went, I mean it's one

459
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,160
Speaker 2: thing to cover in which she did cover from Afar,

460
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:08,080
Speaker 2: or send a reporter or send someone, but she went

461
00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:12,200
Speaker 2: herself and with the whole film crew she got treatment. Wow,

462
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,480
Speaker 2: she said famously, I don't know what happened, but I

463
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,240
Speaker 2: felt something, you know, something along those lines. And so yeah,

464
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:20,159
Speaker 2: you see that, and you're like, I mean I was

465
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,120
Speaker 2: a I mean, I guess I don't quite as much,

466
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 2: but I really, for a long part of my twenties

467
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,159
Speaker 2: and thirties was a big follower of Opreas. Yeah, like

468
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 2: read all her you know, her magazines.

469
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:34,440
Speaker 4: I was like, she legitimizes anything, which is like a

470
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:35,120
Speaker 4: lot of pressure.

471
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,359
Speaker 2: It is a lot of pressure, but it is a

472
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:40,440
Speaker 2: lot of pressure, and I, you know, I don't envy

473
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 2: her position, but I don't know. It was a really

474
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 2: was it was a risk. And we know at least

475
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:49,400
Speaker 2: that we spoke to at least one person who went

476
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 2: because she saw it on for sure, you know, So yeah,

477
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,520
Speaker 2: that part or talking about the upper part, were just

478
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 2: like should we be talking about the upper part? But

479
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:00,880
Speaker 2: I do think it like whether.

480
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,399
Speaker 3: It's Oprah, whether it's whoever, you know, connected America to

481
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:09,200
Speaker 3: this and made it kind of culturally a norm putting

482
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 3: it there and then needing to talk about that where

483
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 3: it's like we were in a state then and maybe

484
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,120
Speaker 3: no better now where people are looking for these answers

485
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 3: and looking for these options and they need them. So

486
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 3: it's like the need is valid and also the curiosity

487
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 3: is valid, and the journalism is valid and important. It's like,

488
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,199
Speaker 3: if there's some answer somewhere for people, it would be

489
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,439
Speaker 3: great to know it. But then it's it's just like

490
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,160
Speaker 3: of course twenty twenty vision, where after the fact you're

491
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 3: just like, well, there's a whole other thing that's happening here.

492
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 3: That is worst case scenario and there's also we saw

493
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:47,480
Speaker 3: you know, I get it. I used to produce a

494
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 3: weekly show. I know what it is to get into

495
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 3: like making these shows. But I mean many many journalists

496
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 3: just kept repeating the same thing that everybody else had.

497
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,119
Speaker 3: And some of the incredible authors that we talked to

498
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,680
Speaker 3: who really dug into his like origin story, for example,

499
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,919
Speaker 3: found so many inconsistencies. I mean, he will tell you

500
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 3: a different age depending on who you hear it from,

501
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,679
Speaker 3: of when he had his like epiphany moment of that

502
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:16,959
Speaker 3: he had visions or he had a gift. You know,

503
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 3: we found I think it was like thirteen and seventeen.

504
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 3: I'm like, so when you see these kinds of inconsistencies

505
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 3: and you just chalk it up to well, he's he

506
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,959
Speaker 3: barely knows how to read and write, and he's from

507
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 3: a really small town, and I don't know, there's a

508
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 3: lot of a little bit of exoticism there, like where

509
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 3: we willingly, I'm sure, out of respect, frankly, I'm going

510
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 3: to give the best benefit of the doubt to the

511
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 3: people who just were like, oh, we're not going to

512
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 3: dig into that because he's telling us this and he

513
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 3: is from another culture any you know, and class differences

514
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 3: and all that. But out of respect for whatever reason,

515
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 3: you know, gloss over some things.

516
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 2: It is also I'm sure a little bit of the appeal.

517
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 2: You know, we believe that these answers come from someone

518
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:03,439
Speaker 2: who doesn't know how to read or write in the

519
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:07,199
Speaker 2: middle of nowhere of Brazil. Like that feels true in

520
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 2: the Hollywood version of this story, right, it's best.

521
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,639
Speaker 3: Case scenario for the Hollywood versions, Like it wouldn't be

522
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,159
Speaker 3: fun if it was a doctor, you know, it's like

523
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 3: it's got.

524
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 1: To be the poor guy.

525
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 3: But also do you want to talk about because there

526
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 3: were you know, as you produce this podcast and as

527
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,120
Speaker 3: you talk to people, there were little things that happened

528
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 3: that were like wait a second, oh, because there is

529
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 3: that thing where it's like you can't dismiss the power

530
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,679
Speaker 3: out of hand. If there's this many people, this many

531
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,439
Speaker 3: either witnesses or people that are believers, then there is

532
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 3: a little bit of like what are we talking about here?

533
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 3: And that there's just some interesting things that happened when

534
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 3: you were investigating.

535
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean one of the most notable ones,

536
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 2: and again I guess it's a little spoilery, but there

537
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 2: was a moment where we're interviewing one of the survivors

538
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 2: who's talking about what had happened to her and literally

539
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:06,360
Speaker 2: finishes the detailed description, and the engineer who is over

540
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 2: in Brazil, it's like, wait, wait, wait a second. I'm like,

541
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 2: what was going on? I just hear a lot of

542
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 2: Portuguese and they're like, oh my god, Oh my god.

543
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 2: The power went out. And I was like what But

544
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 2: it didn't really go out. It was like just the

545
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:26,399
Speaker 2: recording equipment stopped right at that moment. And the first

546
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 2: thing this person says is, oh, see that's John of God.

547
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 1: Can you believe?

548
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:34,959
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah. I was like, what what do you mean,

549
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 2: John of God? And she's like, oh, it always happens.

550
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 2: Always happens if the electricity goes out or something something

551
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 2: like get like people get in a car accident or

552
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,959
Speaker 2: somebody gets robbed. You know, it's like he he just

553
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:48,680
Speaker 2: does these things.

554
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 1: Wow.

555
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 2: And we were laughing about it kind of and thankfully

556
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,680
Speaker 2: I had a backup recording going so we didn't lose it.

557
00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 2: But you know, all the lights go on.

558
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:02,880
Speaker 1: Well, exact same thing, like.

559
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 3: Oh, just a little bit like interesting to be stepping

560
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:08,439
Speaker 3: into that world. And then it is like it's not

561
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 3: black and white, it just isn't.

562
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 2: No. The prosecutor really like so our series really covers

563
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 2: not just the rise of this individual, but all that

564
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 2: it took to reveal this other side of his right.

565
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 2: And the heroes are very much the survivors who were

566
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 2: brave enough to go against the grain and literally having

567
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:34,440
Speaker 2: no one support them and come out, but the journalists

568
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 2: who sought them out and gave them a platform, the

569
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 2: prosecutor who went and really took this case into new law,

570
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 2: frankly in Brazil territory, and they all face these like

571
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 2: these difficulties. Like one journalist was trying to convince a

572
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 2: person to come on her show and she's like, no, no, no,

573
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 2: my car got stolen last night. I think that was

574
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 2: John of God. I think this is a sign I

575
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 2: can't go. I can't go. The prosecutor would interview people

576
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 2: and get their testimonies and be like, so, what did

577
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 2: John of God say to you then, and she's like, no, no, no,

578
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 2: I wasn't talking to John of God. I was talking

579
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 2: to the entity. And he's like, but isn't that John

580
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 2: of God? No, no, no, that's the entity. And he's like, okay,

581
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 2: so you know you can't even get a straight testimony

582
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 2: because people are very anchored in these beliefs and you

583
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 2: have to come from that level of understanding and respect

584
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 2: and appreciation of that even when they want to speak out. Yeah, yeah, fascinating,

585
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 2: I know, and I do.

586
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 4: Speaking of the justice, do you think justice was served

587
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 4: in this story?

588
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 2: Such a big question. I am on the side of yes, yes,

589
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 2: because so many I mean again, I don't want to

590
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 2: give it away, but so many people just keep going. Yeah,

591
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 2: you know, and now we know, now we know who

592
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 2: this man is. Truly, the legal system has risen to

593
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 2: the occasion and we can be more aware. You know,

594
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 2: it's not quite I think the ending everybody wanted.

595
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: Especially the real believers.

596
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 2: I'm sure, yeah, yeah, but you know, I think they've

597
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 2: found their way too, to continue believing. Honestly. One researcher says,

598
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 2: the flexibility that John of God built into his belief system,

599
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 2: which brought so many people in, has enabled it to

600
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 2: continue living without him, which probably he didn't want. But

601
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 2: there are people still going to Lakasa. They're still you know,

602
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 2: doing their healing sessions. There were other people doing healing

603
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 2: sessions there, so it wasn't just him and they still

604
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 2: believe it's a holy place, and it goes on. But

605
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 2: I think we can draw so many lessons from it

606
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 2: that I believe it's a win in the end.

607
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,959
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a certain type of personality that is like,

608
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 3: this is the I'm here, I'm going to give you

609
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 3: all the answers, I speak to God, I speak for God,

610
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 3: all of that stuff. It's like anytime we're hearing stuff

611
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 3: like that, it's like, all right, let's get our checklist

612
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 3: out of what's actually happening here.

613
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 2: And it is this obsession with power.

614
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 3: It is this that ultimately that corruption, where then those

615
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 3: relationships are not just it's not just you're being lied

616
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 3: to about the services that are being rendered, but you're

617
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 3: now in a whole other area and whole other danger.

618
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 3: And then the people that are are being victimized really

619
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 3: get chosen because they're the ones that aren't heard and

620
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 3: won't be heard.

621
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, true, I mean really truly, it was very systematic.

622
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 2: They were chosen, yeah, for their vulnerability, which is horrible.

623
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 2: One of the healers who worked with him actually spoke

624
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 2: with us and was very outspoken about what you just said,

625
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 2: like that he perverted the beliefs when someone is saying

626
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 2: they're the only one that doesn't go with their belief system.

627
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,719
Speaker 2: Actually it goes contrary to what they were teaching. And

628
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 2: because he would train people to be mediums and so

629
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 2: it didn't make sense for there to be only one medium.

630
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 2: And then that power grab, that sort of desire to

631
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 2: be around celebrities and have like be famous, that's what

632
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 2: tipped him off. He's like, h there's something weird here.

633
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 2: And he's a believer, like still to this day. So

634
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 2: also incredibly brave to be able to, in hindsight, be like, shoot,

635
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 2: I saw this and I knew something was off, but

636
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 2: you know, really believed in what I was doing and

637
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 2: didn't want to give that up.

638
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you worked on this for like maybe four years.

639
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 2: So once you deliver.

640
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 3: Your final episode, how does your life change? Do you

641
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 3: go on a vacation right away? Do you start do

642
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 3: you start the next series with some other company? Like?

643
00:32:57,440 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 2: How do you do it? Is it all lined up?

644
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 2: That's a good question. I mean, things have changed in

645
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 2: podcasting just in these last four years quite a bit.

646
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 2: I used to have too many projects going on at once,

647
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 2: and so it was a real luxury to get to

648
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 2: work on this as closely as I did. And yeah,

649
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 2: I guess like a few months before it launches, I

650
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 2: start kind of coming up with new ideas and thinking

651
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 2: about what's next. Limited series are really hard to make now,

652
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 2: but it's what I love to do. So it's a

653
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 2: little bit of a like, well, how can I adapt

654
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,239
Speaker 2: to the new world of podcasting adande as well and

655
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 2: be like meeting the industry at the moment. You know,

656
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 2: what do audiences really want right now? And I'm still

657
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 2: figuring that out. I don't know. Yeah, I mean I

658
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 2: know they want my favorite murder.

659
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 4: The Spanish language part of it is really cool too,

660
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 4: Like that's really exciting for us here to be able

661
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 4: to put that out and how be your first It's awesome.

662
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 1: It's awesome.

663
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 2: I mean I don't want to like overseell, but I

664
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 2: really think people are going to love this because there's

665
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 2: just not that much out there right now. Not many

666
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 2: people are taking these risks and companies and so I

667
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:11,799
Speaker 2: mean that's why I just admire everything that exactly right

668
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,359
Speaker 2: put into this production, because it's really betting on us,

669
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 2: which is feels good, you know. And I say us

670
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 2: as like Spanish speakers where they do consume podcasts is Spanish.

671
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 2: There are so many of us out there dying to

672
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,280
Speaker 2: hear documentaries, chat shows, all the kinds of shows, true crime.

673
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 2: It doesn't you know, I think we're pigeonholed a lot

674
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:33,840
Speaker 2: of the times, and so I think they're going to

675
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 2: flock to this kind of storytelling because there's just not

676
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 2: as much out there. It's a really amazing moment to

677
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 2: be putting this out and you know, it grew really

678
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:50,240
Speaker 2: exponentially because people are bilingual, so they are listening in English.

679
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,319
Speaker 2: You know, they're listening to all the shows. They know

680
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 2: what is the podcast medium is capable of delivering. And

681
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:00,879
Speaker 2: so when certain companies, media companies started investing in making

682
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,839
Speaker 2: podcasts in Spanish, it was like, Okay, here we go.

683
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,360
Speaker 2: And they didn't take the lead up time, like the

684
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 2: grow time that I think we needed in the US

685
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,880
Speaker 2: to like really build an ecosystem kind of figure out

686
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 2: what we wanted to make. Like we saw just podcasts

687
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 2: changed so much before Cereal or before you know, some

688
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:22,280
Speaker 2: of these like big boom moments, and they just went fast,

689
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,880
Speaker 2: much faster. So I think it's one of the fastest

690
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:29,800
Speaker 2: growing demographics in the US, and so we'll see we'll see.

691
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 2: So exciting, and it was exciting to like just have

692
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 2: the general idea of like we should have Spanish language podcasts,

693
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 2: we should be trying to tap into that audience and whatever.

694
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 2: And that was like we were introduced to you guys,

695
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 2: like within a couple months. It was like, not only

696
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 2: is there a production company out there doing it, doing

697
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 2: it great, like with this long history. I mean like

698
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:53,280
Speaker 2: you've been You've been around for a while.

699
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 3: So it was just so cool to be able to

700
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 3: immediately meet a person that was not just like doing

701
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 3: and capable, but like you're just so excellent Martinez, and you're.

702
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 2: Such a good host.

703
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, such a compelling listening for this show. I'm just

704
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:10,320
Speaker 3: so excited.

705
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you. I wanted I've hosted a bunch

706
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 2: of things really randomly with it, you know, because I've

707
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 2: always like, no, I'm the EP, you know, I've got

708
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 2: to be the editor. I'm really an editor at heart,

709
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 2: you know. I love helping other people bring their babies

710
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 2: to life in podcast land. But yeah, I just fallen

711
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 2: into hosting and I really love it. It's been really

712
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 2: nice in this series to explore a new voice, like

713
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 2: try something different and put a little bit of myself

714
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:40,799
Speaker 2: in there. It didn't feel so personal because I'm not

715
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 2: from Brazil. It's you know, but it fell close to

716
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 2: home in terms of the subject matter, because I mean,

717
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:52,919
Speaker 2: I don't know being a woman with a daughter, being

718
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,919
Speaker 2: from that part of the world, being a person who

719
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 2: likes to I don't know that I'm that psychology chess

720
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 2: you mentioned. I don't know that i'd be the one

721
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 2: to be like, oh, look there's smoke. I mean maybe

722
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 2: because I'm a producer and I like to be like

723
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:08,399
Speaker 2: on top of things, but like I'm kind of late

724
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,880
Speaker 2: to the game when I realized something's off, Like I

725
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 2: don't want to believe that someone's capable of doing something

726
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 2: wrong to me. And I've noticed this about myself. I've

727
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,879
Speaker 2: gotten better about it. My husband is amazing at being

728
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 2: like I don't know about that guy, like well, why

729
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 2: did you do that? Why'd you talk to that? And

730
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 2: it's like you're right, like why why? And I just

731
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 2: am just too friendly or something, And so it's been

732
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 2: it was close to home the material, this idea that

733
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 2: what these women went through, like I, I just it

734
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,320
Speaker 2: would be really hard for me to come out and

735
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:45,320
Speaker 2: be like, no, actually this is all wrong.

736
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:46,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's such a rare thing to say.

737
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 4: I feel like so many of us are like I

738
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,279
Speaker 4: would have met it, Like the public about true crime

739
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 4: is like I would have screamed and we didn't. And

740
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 4: it's like, no, you wouldn't have. Now, but I like,

741
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 4: like I wouldn't have. The reality is you, yeah, you

742
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 4: would have pulled your car over or you would have,

743
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,959
Speaker 4: you know, believed that what this person was telling you, because.

744
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, how do they lie?

745
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 2: But exactly? And I just think I'm just my brain

746
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 2: takes a second to be like, wait, are you really

747
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 2: doing this to me? Like I just you know, there's

748
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 2: scenes we're not going to get into, but in this

749
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 2: series where I'm like, yeah, I probably wouldn't have opened

750
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 2: my mouth either. I wouldn't have said anything intil a

751
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 2: little too late, like maybe five minutes after I'd be

752
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,320
Speaker 2: like whoa, yeah, I think that just happened.

753
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 4: Right, or like one person, two people stand up and

754
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:31,759
Speaker 4: then you can yeah.

755
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 3: And I think the whole room is like facing forward

756
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 3: and chanting the chant and doing the thing and then

757
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,319
Speaker 3: you walk in next. It's like it takes so much

758
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:41,799
Speaker 3: to be the person goes hold on, everybody, turn that

759
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 3: music off.

760
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,759
Speaker 2: Wait a second. Wrong, Yes, yes, this is a big

761
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:49,360
Speaker 2: scam like whatever, you know. So ah, that just for

762
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 2: the whole series, like to this, I mean right now,

763
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 2: like I like get in my in my feelings about

764
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 2: it because I'm just like to be that purse, to

765
00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,319
Speaker 2: be there, to be a version of and then have

766
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,960
Speaker 2: the where withal or strength and bravery to then speak out.

767
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 2: It's just like, oh my god, you're my hero. Yeah,

768
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 2: it's really something inspiring. Really, it's so good. Yeah.

769
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you not only made this beautiful podcast with

770
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 3: us and you're such a great partner, but then you

771
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 3: actually agreed to fly hours and hours to come and do.

772
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 2: This episode with us. Yeah, just so nice of you.

773
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 2: Total total hours what was it again on the plane?

774
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 2: I mean seventeen hours if you include the layover. No,

775
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 2: I know, my god, I know throughout this whole thing.

776
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 2: I think before we started, I lived here Ina, and

777
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 2: then for work reasons, we went to Argentina, where my

778
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 2: husband is from. And yeah, so I came from there. Well,

779
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 2: actually technically I came from Uruguay, where my family's from,

780
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 2: because that's where we've been for the holidays and we've

781
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:56,439
Speaker 2: just been there for extent of time. And it brought

782
00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:01,800
Speaker 2: a gift, oh gift, a gift. Well, it's funny because

783
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,320
Speaker 2: I could have brought this from Argentina because of course

784
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:06,720
Speaker 2: they always have the same thing we do. We compete

785
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:10,360
Speaker 2: on everything, and so they also have this cookie called

786
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:14,240
Speaker 2: Alpha Alphao is what it's called. It's like a cakey

787
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 2: cookie with caramel in the middle, which we call. This

788
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 2: is a very special brand because it's from Laser le Minas,

789
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 2: which is where my dad's from in Uruguay. It's in

790
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:29,399
Speaker 2: the interior. They're very famous Allo Caruss Uruguay. But this

791
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:34,319
Speaker 2: one is a special sort of like line called legendary,

792
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 2: and I was like, oh my god, one to Karen

793
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:39,319
Speaker 2: and George. It's gonna be the legendary one.

794
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 1: Oh my god, thank you.

795
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,439
Speaker 2: That's so nice. Here here it shows you where it's from.

796
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 2: That's perfect.

797
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:44,879
Speaker 4: Well.

798
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 3: And also we have a gift for you because we

799
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 3: know you've been away from the States, that's true, and

800
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 3: we heard that one of your favorite things was bagels

801
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 3: that you can't get in Argentina the way you wish

802
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:02,439
Speaker 3: you could, so we brought you.

803
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:04,759
Speaker 2: Do you want to open this? Guy? That is an

804
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 2: enormous box and it smells so good. Really under my

805
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 2: chair in their plane. Oh my god, with the bow

806
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 2: and everything. I get you an extra seat on the planet, Yes, exactly,

807
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 2: an extra seat for my bagel. Boss box, A boss box,

808
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:27,720
Speaker 2: A boss box. The presentation that looks incredible. It's getting

809
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:28,959
Speaker 2: some some camera action.

810
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:31,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, wow, those are huge bagels.

811
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:35,360
Speaker 2: There's many of them too. You know my favorite is everything?

812
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

813
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 1: Right.

814
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:42,360
Speaker 3: Our producer Molly was like, should I put him in

815
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 3: the studio or should I? And I said, you have

816
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:45,919
Speaker 3: to hold him out there because I can smell them,

817
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 3: like right now.

818
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:51,360
Speaker 2: No, they're so good, amazing and really out there for me.

819
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:55,239
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Not quite the same, but you know,

820
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:56,359
Speaker 2: I had to come from very far.

821
00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 3: I'm so excited for these Thank you so much for

822
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 3: taking the time and making that trip, because we just

823
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 3: want our audience to know you, and they will through

824
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 3: of course the podcast, but like getting to know you

825
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:11,879
Speaker 3: as a person. I think it's just what you do,

826
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 3: you running your company, all the things that you make

827
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:18,320
Speaker 3: like it's it's really an honor to work with somebody

828
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 3: like you, and we're so excited to be launching this

829
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 3: podcast with you.

830
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:23,760
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, thank you so much. It's a true honor.

831
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 2: For me to be here and to speak to your

832
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 2: audience and share this story. It's it's it's was a

833
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 2: team effort. I know I'm here, but I'm here representing

834
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:35,799
Speaker 2: a lot of people behind the scenes, and we're all

835
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 2: just so grateful. So okay, see, oh that's the intro.

836
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,400
Speaker 4: We didn't even have to look at these cars then

837
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 4: sell them.

838
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 1: Now I want that.

839
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 2: Clone, right, some light, that's some light thing.

840
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:52,760
Speaker 1: Garlic, a room spray, a bagel.

841
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:54,799
Speaker 2: Gosh, we don't even need to go to dinner. Let's

842
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:58,839
Speaker 2: just eat bagel, all right?

843
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:01,880
Speaker 4: So check out It is podcast two Faced John of

844
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:05,240
Speaker 4: God in both English and Spanish on February fourth, twenty

845
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:08,240
Speaker 4: twenty six, with new episodes out on Wednesdays.

846
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 3: And don't judge me for this. You can find the

847
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:16,160
Speaker 3: Spanish language RSS feed by searching Dos Kados Juan de Dios.

848
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 2: Wherever you get your podcasts.

849
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 4: So please listen, subscribe, and give it a five star review.

850
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 4: To Face John of God, thank you so much for

851
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:23,359
Speaker 4: being with us.

852
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 2: Yes, it's so exciting. Yes, sure, thank you for having me.

853
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:31,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, stay sexy and don't get murdered. Okay, good bagel.

854
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 4: Elvis, do you want a cookie?

855
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 2: This has been an exactly right production.

856
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 4: Our senior producer is Molly Smith and our associate producer

857
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:47,360
Speaker 4: is Tessa Hughes.

858
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:49,360
Speaker 2: Our editor is Aristotle Ascevedo.

859
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by Leona Squalacci.

860
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 2: Our researchers are Mary mclachan and Ali Elkin.

861
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 4: Email your hometowns to My Favorite Murder at gmail dot.

862
00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 2: Com and follow the show on Instagram at my Favorite Murder.

863
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 4: Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

864
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 4: or wherever you get your podcasts.

865
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 2: Goodbye,