WEBVTT - Maziyar Ghiabi on Iran: the World's Most Fascinating Drug Policy 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:07.720 Hi, I'm Ethan Natalman, and this is Psychoactive, a production 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:11.600 of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the 0:00:11.600 --> 0:00:15.040 show where we talk about all things drugs. But any 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:18.760 views expressed here do not represent those of I Heart Media, 0:00:18.880 --> 0:00:23.480 Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, Heed, as 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:26.400 an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:30.720 even represent my own. And nothing contained in this show 0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:33.680 should be used as medical advice or encouragement to use 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:45.440 any type of drugs. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. Today we're going 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:50.440 to talk about the drug problem and drug policies in 0:00:50.560 --> 0:00:55.000 a particular country. Probably no other country in the world 0:00:55.440 --> 0:01:00.480 has had such a fluid and counterintuitive history of rugs 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:06.440 as Iran. So my guest today is a professor Maziar Gabi. 0:01:06.840 --> 0:01:10.040 We crossed paths a few months ago in Mexico City 0:01:10.240 --> 0:01:13.080 at the conference of the Society of Alcohol and Droyg 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:16.959 Historians UH. He's a distinguished professor or lecturer at the 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:20.120 University of Exeter in the UK now where he heads 0:01:20.319 --> 0:01:23.880 the Center of Persian and Iranian Studies. He wrote a 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:27.320 book about drugs and politics and Iran and it's a 0:01:27.360 --> 0:01:32.559 fantastic description of what's happened, especially during the years since 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:35.920 Iran became the Islamic Republic with the revolution in nineteen 0:01:36.000 --> 0:01:38.840 seventy nine. So Masira, thank you ever so much for 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:43.319 joining me on Psychoactive. Hi Don and hi to everyone. 0:01:43.400 --> 0:01:45.320 It's a pleasure to be here. What I want to 0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:49.720 say is I've been fascinated by Iran. Really, I think 0:01:50.120 --> 0:01:53.560 early two thousand, Maziar and almost out of the blue, 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:57.120 the government in Iran and the Minister of Justice basically 0:01:57.160 --> 0:01:59.920 issued a fatua. If I have these facts right, declare 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:04.480 that method on maintenance and needle exchange, We're okay under 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:07.120 Islamic law. And I just found that fast. I remember 0:02:07.160 --> 0:02:10.000 I was at a conference at International Harmoniament conference, I 0:02:10.000 --> 0:02:12.520 think it was in in Northern Ireland, Belfast in two 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:14.440 thousand five, and remember standing up as part of my 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:17.080 speech there and talking about the fact that that I 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:19.280 had told Iran it just issued a thought was saying 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:21.919 that all of this was okay, and that meanwhile, our own, 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:24.040 quote unquote I had told the United States would not 0:02:24.080 --> 0:02:27.360 do something differently. So that's what initially caught my attention 0:02:27.360 --> 0:02:30.919 on this thing. But at the same time, Iran has 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:33.840 been a country that's been highly repressive. It's had the 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:37.120 death penalty for drug offenses, It's had huge, you know, 0:02:37.280 --> 0:02:40.560 battles with narco traffickers. So let me just start off 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:44.320 by asking you the question what got you interested in 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:48.600 looking in this drug issue in Iran. You know, I 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:52.440 was a student in my late twenties and I was 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:56.120 doing fieldwork in Iran for other purposes, and I noticed that, 0:02:56.160 --> 0:02:59.679 you know, all around me and everyone I met basically, 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:03.960 and also lots of organizations on the ground were active 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:07.799 in the field of drug policy and drug treatment. And 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:12.600 I started looking for potential articles that could inform me 0:03:12.639 --> 0:03:15.720 a bit more, and I saw nothing, basically, and so 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:19.600 I decided basically to take the case of drugs both 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:23.360 historically and in terms of you know, like real life 0:03:23.400 --> 0:03:26.440 and life world. There's a case study and they spent 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:31.320 about seven eight years on the subject, and I'm still 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:34.160 working on it and collaborating on it. One thing that's 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:38.360 been striking about Iran is that, really, since the end 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:41.720 of the war with Iraq in the late eighties, the 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:45.440 drug issue seems to have been the number one issue 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:48.680 in public opinion, at least in terms of social issues, 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:53.000 um almost continuously for decades. I mean, tell me if 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:54.920 that's accurate. First of all, but I can also see 0:03:54.920 --> 0:03:57.080 why this is such a fascinating issue, why I must 0:03:57.120 --> 0:03:59.280 have been curious that there was so little writing about 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:02.800 it give and how important it's been in Iranian politics 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:06.880 and culture. Absolutely, of course during the eighties. You know, 0:04:06.960 --> 0:04:10.640 Iran had been through so much in just less than 0:04:10.680 --> 0:04:14.240 a decade. Basically, we had the revolution in nineteen seventy nine, 0:04:15.080 --> 0:04:18.719 with all that a revolution means, you know, it's not 0:04:18.800 --> 0:04:25.279 simply an event, it's just a dramatic, profound change in 0:04:25.320 --> 0:04:28.520 people's life and in the way people imagine the futures 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:32.279 as well. In the war, you know, a brutal war basically, 0:04:32.320 --> 0:04:35.280 you know, one of the war that was fought basically 0:04:35.880 --> 0:04:38.680 in the same way that First World War and Second 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:41.240 World War we fought, so you know, trenches and you 0:04:41.279 --> 0:04:43.560 know this kind of stuff. But at the same time, 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:47.479 I should actually sort I mentioned that while all of 0:04:47.520 --> 0:04:53.279 this was happening, the drug issue and was still at 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:58.400 the very sort of core of political issues and political 0:04:58.440 --> 0:05:02.280 concerns for their and in government right after the revolution. 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:06.520 I mean, I just can't recall a statement by the 0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:10.200 late Ayatollahomany, you know, the leader of the revolution and 0:05:10.480 --> 0:05:13.520 the supreme leader of Iran in the eighties, that he 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:16.560 said that we have to fight the war on two fronts. 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:19.800 The first front we all know about it, it's the 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:24.480 war against Iraq an Iraqi aggression. But the second front, 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:28.960 which was not at all less important, was the war 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:32.120 against dragon addiction. So this is just to give you 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:37.640 a sense of how entrenched it was with the political 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:42.000 history of revolution in Iran and also the way basically 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:45.000 it made me understand that it was a topic that 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:48.880 had deep roots in the post revolutionary history of Iran 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:52.160 and so it really needed to be discussed with all 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:54.640 your attention. Now, if we bring it down to the 0:05:55.400 --> 0:05:58.520 drug issue, one of the things that Iran has in 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:04.320 common with other countries, especially in Asia, is opium has 0:06:04.360 --> 0:06:07.760 been part of its history for thousands of years. And 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:12.000 if you jump to the present right now, um my understanding. 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:13.600 We all of times think about the US is having 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:15.520 one of the biggest opia problems in the world, but 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:20.240 if you look per capita, Iran and Pakistan and Afghanistan 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:23.600 are probably the three countries with the highest per capita 0:06:23.720 --> 0:06:26.719 opium use and addiction rates by my opius, I say, 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:30.000 opium and heroin and other you know opiates um in 0:06:30.040 --> 0:06:33.000 the world. So MASI are Now I've sort of provided 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:36.080 this broader context. I mean, what more can you tell 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:39.600 us then about sort of the Iran special relationship with 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:42.719 opium going back historically, you know, opium has had a 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:49.599 very important historical role in both Iran's economy and in 0:06:49.960 --> 0:06:55.200 Iranian social sort of traditions and social life. From the 0:06:55.320 --> 0:07:00.479 late nineteenth century, the Iranian economy and I can culture 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:04.799 shifts towards the cultivation of the poppy. That was connected 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:09.760 also to the sort of increased demands for copy related products, 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:15.440 particularly opium, across the world. And that shifting agricultural production 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:21.160 has profound effects on on the way Iranian if you 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:25.320 want to shift to capitalism happens, you know, with capital accommodation, 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:29.440 with new cash crops, you know, instead of uh, you know, 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:33.440 food crops. For a country which up to you know, 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:38.080 a century ago, it was mostly agricultural and producing food 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:42.400 for his own consumption, that was a massive, massive change 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:45.560 which had its own effects of course on the rising 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:48.960 opium consumption on the vast scale that you know, we 0:07:49.120 --> 0:07:52.560 witness of course from the early twentieth century with people 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:55.760 oftimes failed to realize is that opium is integrated into 0:07:55.800 --> 0:07:59.960 many societies in some respects, almost like alcohol. I mean, 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:02.920 you have the United States in the late nineteenth century 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:06.280 far more people using um opius in various forms than 0:08:06.440 --> 0:08:08.520 is the case today. It's in you know, loud and 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:10.880 m liquid. Opius has used as you know, this is 0:08:10.920 --> 0:08:13.920 the day before they had aspirin or penicillan, so when 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:17.160 they had bad sanitation. So opium is really sort of 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:20.680 a universal pain reliever throughout much of the world. Now, 0:08:20.720 --> 0:08:24.120 what you see happening in I think Southwest Asia and 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:27.880 but also in Southeast Asia is that it's also very 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:31.960 commonly used, not just among lower class but among upper class. 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:35.040 It's seen as not just being something that's a soporific, 0:08:35.160 --> 0:08:38.120 but sometimes they can be a stimulant um. You know, 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:40.680 it's not just you know, sort of opium dens but 0:08:40.880 --> 0:08:44.080 high end almost like cocktail lounge versions of these things. 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:46.560 And you see this in China, you see it in 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:49.480 parts of India, obviously, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran. You see it 0:08:49.480 --> 0:08:53.319 among the Chinese minorities in Southeast Asia, but in the 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:55.760 Iran do you think it goes even deeper than it 0:08:55.800 --> 0:08:58.480 does in the neighboring countries of like sat Pakistan and 0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:04.640 Afghanistan and elsewhere. This is really interesting question. Um. Perhaps 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:11.600 in the run um opium culture really sort of became 0:09:11.880 --> 0:09:16.679 a social practice that characterized really sort of the higher 0:09:16.760 --> 0:09:21.120 lead as well as the middle class and the lower class, 0:09:21.200 --> 0:09:24.040 but of course in different forms and different qualities of 0:09:24.080 --> 0:09:28.360 products being consumed. And this is particularly true when we 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:32.360 speak about the sort of pre revolutionary period, I mean 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:37.080 certain parts of around uh, the whole social life really 0:09:37.120 --> 0:09:43.000 turned around meeting, drinking tea, smoking opition. And this was 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:46.640 mostly done in private settings at home of well of people, 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:52.320 which had you know, specific quarters and rooms where open 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:56.760 was consumed smoked mostly through a specific type of pipe 0:09:56.800 --> 0:10:01.320 which in i run is called four. It's a valiation 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:05.280 of a Chinese pipe. It's very peculiar to Iran and 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:08.560 and also quite interesting and esthetically I would say pleasing 0:10:08.960 --> 0:10:10.640 when you when you look at it, I mean you 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:13.240 know it's a pipe and the head of which is 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:17.439 in the shape of a poppy. Uh and uh. And 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:21.319 and of course that many of course valiations and precious 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:26.680 ones of course have inscribed poetic versus and poetical lines, 0:10:27.480 --> 0:10:33.240 which shows you how deeply ingrained opium consumption, particularly opum smoking, 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:36.880 had become by the turn of the twentieth century. It 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:39.400 is true that opium has always more or less been 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:43.720 part of social life in Iran and also the practice 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:49.080 of self care and medical care in premodern times, but 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:53.600 prior to the twentieth century it was mostly eaten in 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:56.600 the forms of pills actually, you know, and Iran still now. 0:10:56.600 --> 0:11:01.200 When someone is really uh, sort of a local and speaks, 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:05.240 you know, with ease in public, people can always make 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:07.480 a comment say, oh, he's a talio key, which in 0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:12.319 person means he's an opium music, because you know, maintaining 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:16.520 calm and lucidity of thought while being in front of 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:19.320 the public is not easy. I mean, we may say 0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:21.839 that the equivalent of this is, you know, some people 0:11:21.960 --> 0:11:25.360 use so called smart drugs, you know, pharmaceutical products that 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:29.400 help them to maintain concentration and think faster when they 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:33.520 need to deliver speeching in public. I mean, you know, 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:37.200 prior to the revolution, I mean, there was widespread acceptance 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:42.520 even even in quarters of government, regarding opium use. Of course, 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:45.360 this is shifting and has shifted. I mean over the 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:49.560 course of the twentieth century, uh, you know, mostly by 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:53.880 adopting westernized ideas of consumption and entertainment. You know, so 0:11:53.960 --> 0:12:01.640 alcohol has become a less sort of stigmatized so do product, 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:07.439 whereas drugs such as opium among the younger generation is 0:12:07.760 --> 0:12:11.480 seen as something that really belongs to another era and 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:14.360 it's more stigmatized. I would say, So it is much 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:19.880 more you sort of common to see someone drinking nowadays, 0:12:20.120 --> 0:12:24.120 in especially in the in the larger urban centers than 0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:28.840 smoking opium among you know, new generations of it. Well, 0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:31.360 let me askee this because visu, the alcohol, I mean, 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:36.000 alcohol is traditionally Haram. It's prohibited in Islamic culture. And 0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:40.120 you say, unlike say East Asia, where societies have alcohol 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:43.600 and they have opium, in Iran you have a place 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:46.199 where opium and I guess cannabis for that matter, are 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:50.120 not Haran. They're not you know, technically forbidden under Islamic law. 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:54.119 But alcohol is. And is there something about the prohibition 0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:57.880 on alcohol that actually gives opium a more a sort 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:01.319 of added special value. And it's in Islamic society and 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:06.120 an Iranian society. The fact is that really what happens 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:10.760 after nineteen seventy nine, with the revolution, is that Romany 0:13:10.840 --> 0:13:15.000 declares opium to be around, and that was embraced more 0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:17.920 or less by the rest of the clergy. It is 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:21.400 interesting because with the Islamization, you know, if you want 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:25.840 of governance and government, the distinction between religion and sort 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:31.320 of public law is blurred, and therefore what is forbidden 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:34.679 in you know, in the legal order of the country. 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:38.280 In that case, like all drugs, including opium, cocaine and whatever, 0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:42.000 they all become forbidden also for religion. So actually the 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:44.640 country of what we would normally think that religion sort 0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:49.040 of imposes, you know, it's decreased upon public life. It's 0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:52.120 it's the adoption of you know, the international sort of 0:13:52.200 --> 0:13:57.360 anti narcotic discourse that makes religious leaders to to ban 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:01.080 religious to cree I mean by by by basically declaring 0:14:01.080 --> 0:14:05.240 a fatwa religious decree and and calling opium and other 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:10.240 substances as around. So nowadays most of the clergy would 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:14.800 have no doubt in saying that in Islam all narcotic 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:18.679 substances and all illicit drugs are also around. But what 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:23.280 you said is interesting because prior to this sort of 0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:27.640 moment of embraced by very religious leaders of of of 0:14:27.800 --> 0:14:33.400 sort of drug prohibition opium and cannabis, but mostly opium 0:14:34.520 --> 0:14:40.840 was seen as less problematic, more indigenous than alcoholic beverages. 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:44.280 So and that of course has had an effect on 0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:48.400 how people generally and the general population perceived the substance. 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:52.120 But it is also it is itself also sort of 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:57.040 showing that these substances were widespread, whereas alcohol in general, 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:01.400 fire the mid twenty cent tree was not really readily 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:04.320 available across the country. So it may have been available 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:09.320 in major cities, but you know, most people wouldn't drink. 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:11.560 There is a sort of a tradition of kind of 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:15.080 homebrew of beer or other sorts of things throughout the 0:15:15.720 --> 0:15:19.160 throughout Iran in rural areas. Of course, yeah, that these 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:23.040 traditions mostly connected also to minorities. So you know, Armenian 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:26.720 and Jewish minorities in Iran, which were you know, rather 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:30.640 large groups up to the twentieth century had the right, 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:34.240 the legal right to brew and particular to produce wine. 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:37.760 But also some Iranian producers. But I would say that 0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:41.800 it was less common for rural communities to drink the time, 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:46.040 and drinking was mostly I wouldn't say exclusively but mostly 0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:51.800 a practice carried out by by you know, sort of 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:57.320 upper classes m h. Whereas open was classless. You know. 0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:01.760 Now there is a fascinating phase ease in Iranian drug 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:04.600 policy in the seventies which I want to raise in 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:06.760 part because I was in part shocked that I did 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:09.480 not know about it. I've talked in past episodes, as 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:13.160 in Psychoactive, about what happens in the first half of 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:17.600 the twentieth century when the global drug prohibition regime is 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:20.640 emerging in you know, with the US playing a powerful 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:24.000 proselytizing role, but other government's active as well, and they're 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:26.760 and it's focused really on opium and opium control of 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:30.080 conventions in the first nineteen o nine opium control of 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:33.680 conventions and the subsequent conventions. And as a result, what 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:37.480 happens both in Southwest Asia and Southeast Asia is that 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:41.440 opium control systems are set up, registration systems where people, 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:45.040 generally the elderly in Southeast Asia is oftentimes the Chinese 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:48.920 minorities can basically register, not unlike registering for say, a 0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:52.480 method on program, and then get their opium in clinics 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:56.160 or pharmacies. And the system is tax and it becomes 0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:59.560 a fairly orderly way of dealing with opium, and a 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:03.560 somewhat more regulated way in both Southwest Asia and Southeast Asia. 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:06.639 But then the kind of you know, prohibitionist mentality in 0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:09.800 the US results in that thing being shut down. Now, 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:13.280 what happens in the middle of the twentieth century, um 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:17.520 is that most of these opium monopoly opium control systems 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:20.800 get shut down under pressure from the US, from the 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:23.399 League of Nations, from the United Nations. So that you 0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:27.120 get to the nineteen fifties and sixties, and basically there 0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:30.960 are essentially, as far as I know, no such opium 0:17:31.000 --> 0:17:35.600 maintenance systems in existence. And then out of the blue, 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:40.120 at least from where I'm looking, the Shah in nineteen 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:46.359 sixty nine or seventy decides to reinitiate this program. And 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:49.240 so by the middle late seventies you now have Iran, 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:52.400 as I think, the only country in the world within 0:17:52.560 --> 0:17:55.440 opium maintenance regular story system like the ones that existed 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:59.680 earlier in the century two thou people registered. So I mean, 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:02.160 I it's reading about this in your book, mus I mean, 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:04.879 how does this happen? Why does this happen? Why does 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:07.960 the Shah who is so keen for close relationships with 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:10.800 the you know, the US and so keen on modernization. 0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:14.280 How did and why does that happen at that time? Yeah, 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:18.320 that's the question I have asked myself as well. And 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:21.240 I mean the response I come up with, I hope 0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:25.320 is exhaustive, is that it was a sort of combination 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:30.400 of events and of situations. Basically, you know, first of all, 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:33.920 something that comes as a surprise, often he's not a 0:18:33.960 --> 0:18:37.000 surprise because when we look back at the history of 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:40.520 drug policy in Iran and the approach that sort of 0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:46.919 successive Iranian governments had during the twentieth century visa the opium, 0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:51.040 I noticed at least that there were examples of an 0:18:51.080 --> 0:18:56.560 interest in maintenance policies on opium already early in the 0:18:56.600 --> 0:19:00.239 twentieth century. This was right after the first convention of 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:04.520 open control in nineteen o nine. In nineteen twelve, but 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:08.280 of course I ran you know, from then onwards starts 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:13.440 to basically restrict the sort of approachated test towards opium. 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:20.760 By nineteen sixty nine, after fourteen years of restrict militarized 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:26.280 eradication of the poppy and opium economy in Iran, they 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:29.119 shall decides as you said, to introduce this sort of 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:35.120 regulated market and medicalized program of open distribution. This happens 0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:39.440 basically because while I RUN had prohibited opening production and 0:19:39.480 --> 0:19:45.480 public cultivation from nineteen fifty five onwards, Afghanistan and Turkey 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:50.320 kept producing large amounts of opium and opium, much of 0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:55.240 it you know, enter the Run illegally, and Iran having had, 0:19:55.359 --> 0:20:01.840 you know, throughout twentieth century a large population of opium 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:05.040 and herron uses, and particularly from nineties and fifty seven 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:08.520 herron appeared in I RUN, so quite early on actually 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:12.919 in terms of herring culture, the shah and and the 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:18.080 entourage of course of the shah Uh, in order to 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:22.760 put pressure on American allies, but mostly and And and 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:26.639 the United States in particular, decided to go back to 0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:32.320 a regulated, medicalized program, which basically would cut the link 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:38.640 between Afghan opium and opiate producers and Iranian criminal organizations 0:20:38.680 --> 0:20:43.880 distributing illicit opium inside Iran, and the state would basically 0:20:43.880 --> 0:20:49.439 took over the opium economy. And what is interesting is 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:52.479 that so we would expect that with the regulated market 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:56.919 for the opium, you know, supervised by medical professionals, the 0:20:56.960 --> 0:21:01.360 approach towards drug offenses might be milder, you know, more lenient, 0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:05.120 but what happens is quite the country. We have a regulated, 0:21:05.480 --> 0:21:09.199 you know, state monopoly of opium, and the state actually 0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:13.560 applies the death penalty against drug traffickers. What is the 0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:16.320 rational behind this, I mean, in the rational in my view, 0:21:16.440 --> 0:21:19.320 is that really the path of the state, and the 0:21:19.400 --> 0:21:25.080 Shah wanted to make sure that since now opium is 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:29.480 in the interests of the state, it's you know, it's 0:21:29.560 --> 0:21:33.600 part of the state economy. They have no competitors and 0:21:34.800 --> 0:21:40.560 elicit criminal organizations basically do not increased prices in order 0:21:40.600 --> 0:21:46.199 to compete with the legal economy of opium. And as 0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:49.360 I understand it, the market was sort of half older 0:21:49.400 --> 0:21:52.520 people over the age of sixty who had sort of 0:21:52.560 --> 0:21:56.080 more liberal access to the opium, and then a whole 0:21:56.320 --> 0:21:58.200 the other half of the where people were younger who 0:21:58.200 --> 0:22:00.720 could get it, you know, basically recommend it by a doctor, 0:22:00.800 --> 0:22:03.520 not unlike the way that medical marijuana has been recommended 0:22:03.560 --> 0:22:05.360 by doctors in the US, where it could be used 0:22:05.359 --> 0:22:08.400 for pain or even for I guess, treating addiction. I mean, 0:22:08.400 --> 0:22:09.840 do I have that right from what I read in 0:22:09.880 --> 0:22:14.560 your book exactly exactly, so you know, over sixty people 0:22:14.920 --> 0:22:19.199 could just go and and get their basically ratio of 0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:25.080 opium easily from a pharmacy, and people under sixty needed 0:22:25.359 --> 0:22:28.280 you know, a GP, a doctor, a physician to prescribe 0:22:28.560 --> 0:22:31.560 you know them opium, and and the reasons for prescription 0:22:31.600 --> 0:22:33.800 were the most different. I mean, you know, it could 0:22:33.800 --> 0:22:37.760 be from you know, I have a chronic dependence to opium, 0:22:37.840 --> 0:22:42.240 so I need opium and that was sufficient. Or I 0:22:42.320 --> 0:22:45.320 have back pain, I have a headache, I have you know, 0:22:45.520 --> 0:22:48.760 stomach problems. And there was really a long list of 0:22:49.400 --> 0:22:53.920 potential reasons for which you could be prescribed opium. Mm hmm. 0:22:54.720 --> 0:22:57.159 So why is he run the only country in the 0:22:57.200 --> 0:23:00.000 world to do this? I mean, other countries have powerful 0:23:00.040 --> 0:23:02.840 traditions that you know, going back hundreds of not thousands 0:23:02.880 --> 0:23:05.919 of years of opium use in Southwest Asia, Southern Asia, 0:23:05.920 --> 0:23:09.640 and Southeast Asia, but none of them do it. I mean, 0:23:09.640 --> 0:23:11.480 to the extent that you've looked at other countries in 0:23:11.520 --> 0:23:15.200 the world, you have any idea why Iran was alone 0:23:15.440 --> 0:23:19.320 in doing this in the seventies. It's really a good question. 0:23:19.400 --> 0:23:21.800 I mean, it's often easier to say why someone does 0:23:21.880 --> 0:23:27.480 something rather than why they don't do it. But I guess, 0:23:27.720 --> 0:23:31.000 I guess, you know, the sort of growing sort of 0:23:31.040 --> 0:23:34.880 assertiveness of past of Iran in the seventies is surely 0:23:34.920 --> 0:23:37.680 I think in case, I mean, in my view, from 0:23:37.720 --> 0:23:41.480 the cases absent foreign pressure, particularly US pressure on drug 0:23:41.480 --> 0:23:45.640 control have been really really influential in the shaping of policy, 0:23:45.760 --> 0:23:48.760 especially following the fifties. So after the Second World War. 0:23:49.520 --> 0:23:51.639 On the other hand, I may say that, you know, 0:23:51.880 --> 0:23:59.200 Iran had a large portion of the population that consumed opium. 0:23:59.240 --> 0:24:04.960 Without this habits becoming a manifest problem, something that you know, 0:24:05.600 --> 0:24:09.320 would cause a sort of moral outrage in the public. 0:24:10.440 --> 0:24:13.400 I'm sure there are other cases in which in which 0:24:13.520 --> 0:24:17.119 there has been widespread use of opium without you know, 0:24:17.320 --> 0:24:20.639 what some people you know, called moral panic. But but 0:24:20.720 --> 0:24:23.920 in general, I you know, if you go beyond opium 0:24:23.960 --> 0:24:27.040 and look at coca and cocaine. You know, countries in 0:24:27.119 --> 0:24:31.280 Latin America nowadays are trying to move towards a regulated market. 0:24:31.400 --> 0:24:34.280 I mean, of course, Latin America being too close to 0:24:34.359 --> 0:24:38.359 the northern neighbor to the US makes things very difficult. 0:24:38.680 --> 0:24:42.400 But you know, the interest and and sort of division 0:24:42.800 --> 0:24:46.320 is there putting it into place. Sometimes it is really 0:24:46.400 --> 0:24:49.399 costly and in a way. I mean, Bolivia and Peru 0:24:49.560 --> 0:24:53.280 do stand out as being somewhat unique in maintaining the 0:24:53.359 --> 0:24:55.760 legal status of coca. I mean, right from the beginning, 0:24:56.040 --> 0:24:58.840 they make it clear that they're signing out international conventions, 0:24:58.840 --> 0:25:00.800 but they have a special p which to be abow 0:25:00.880 --> 0:25:03.280 to do this, which it seems that none of the 0:25:03.320 --> 0:25:06.920 countries that had opium as their core traditional uh sort 0:25:06.920 --> 0:25:12.040 of psychotropic psychoactive plant product, we're able to do early on. 0:25:13.480 --> 0:25:15.800 I think, I mean, it's I think this is an 0:25:15.800 --> 0:25:19.160 excellent point. I mean, the fact is that although opium 0:25:19.200 --> 0:25:23.919 has always had a place in the cultural life of 0:25:24.000 --> 0:25:31.919 Iran and other countries where you know, open is important India, China, Afghanistan, Pakistan, 0:25:31.960 --> 0:25:36.119 I mean you and many other places including Turkey, it 0:25:36.359 --> 0:25:42.400 never became an uncontested substance. I mean, what I mean 0:25:42.640 --> 0:25:47.400 is that with modernization, with the establishment of the sort 0:25:47.400 --> 0:25:50.600 of modern nation state across the world. You know, we're 0:25:50.600 --> 0:25:54.800 talking about the late nineteenth century, early tenth century, open 0:25:55.000 --> 0:25:58.840 was contentious because part of the population and part of 0:25:58.840 --> 0:26:05.200 the elites so as undermining the efforts to basically create 0:26:05.240 --> 0:26:09.639 a modern nation that was not indulging in you know, 0:26:09.760 --> 0:26:13.440 sort of unproductive habit and and and and of course 0:26:13.920 --> 0:26:16.720