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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio, Hello, and Happy Friday. I'm Tracy B.

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Speaker 1: Wilson and I'm Holly Fry. This week we had a

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Speaker 1: six impossible episodes installment on just some stuff that's listener

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Speaker 1: requested and too short. Uh. It's fairly frequently that we

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Speaker 1: will get an email from someone who has a link

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Speaker 1: to an article and says, hey, I think this would

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Speaker 1: be a fascinating episode, and really that article contains everything

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Speaker 1: everything or almost everything we know, and I'm like, that

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Speaker 1: does sound like it would be a great episode, but

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Speaker 1: that's all. That's it. Yeah, that's what we've got to

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Speaker 1: go on. Yeah. Those are always really tricky, and sometimes

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Speaker 1: it's heartbreaking because it does sound amazing and it gets

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Speaker 1: exciting and then I'm not gonna work. Yeah. And sometimes

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Speaker 1: sometimes there is some person who has similarly found like

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Speaker 1: a random mention of a person in a newspaper and

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Speaker 1: then just makes it there next two years of work

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Speaker 1: to go write a book on that person, and then

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Speaker 1: maybe that could become the foundation for an episode at

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Speaker 1: some point later, maybe even with the author on the show.

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Speaker 1: But a lot of times it's just like there's no

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Speaker 1: we don't have a really good place to start here, right. Well,

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Speaker 1: and then there are cases right where it's something like um,

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Speaker 1: for how where there's a lot of guesswork in even

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Speaker 1: the information we have have UM, where it's like, well,

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Speaker 1: we see it might be whatever. But if you go

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Speaker 1: much further than that, you really are embellishing some things

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Speaker 1: with speculation. Yeah, yeah, which you know, I'm for it

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Speaker 1: for great TV. Yes, I love a TV presentation of

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Speaker 1: you know, something that's clearly fictional but based on something factual.

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm here for it. Um. One of the things

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Speaker 1: that I uh sort of thought about as I was

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Speaker 1: writing this episode but then did not go into, uh,

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Speaker 1: into more detail, is um Jeneida Shribakova's art like reminds

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Speaker 1: me so much of artwork from other people that we

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Speaker 1: have talked about on the show in full length episode. So,

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Speaker 1: like Barrett, Marissa also became really prominent in her uh

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Speaker 1: you know, circle of artists and also did a lot

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Speaker 1: of work that focused on other women in her life

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Speaker 1: and children and just having a simple beauty in things

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Speaker 1: like watering the plants out on the balcony and that

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Speaker 1: kind of stuff. But there's been a lot more historical

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Speaker 1: and biographical focus on some of these other artists, then

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Speaker 1: on her, which I didn't get mentioned in passing, but

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Speaker 1: like not into a lot of detail. I had a

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Speaker 1: great time looking at a lot of her artwork. I

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Speaker 1: don't think we mentioned specifically there are a lot of nudes,

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Speaker 1: so just be just be aware. You know, I am

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Speaker 1: not saying that nudes as artwork are bad, but I

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Speaker 1: can see if you were, like, let's look at this

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Speaker 1: just in front of my classroom full of third graders,

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Speaker 1: that might be a little bit of a surprise to

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Speaker 1: suddenly have a scream full of artistic nudes. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: One of the things I love about her work is

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Speaker 1: that she very clearly is able to mimic a whole

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Speaker 1: lot of different schools and styles. Um. And I really

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Speaker 1: really love she has a self portrait of herself as

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Speaker 1: Piero that I have always thought was really strikingly beautiful. Um.

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Speaker 1: It's it's another you know, the key in my heart

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Speaker 1: is like light and shadow, so and that one is

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Speaker 1: very heavy on it. I love it. I love it. Um.

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Speaker 1: I did not realize immediately in the picture that we

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Speaker 1: talked about of the House of Cards picture, the painting

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Speaker 1: of her children Like. When I first looked at it,

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Speaker 1: I was struck by how sad and pensive, like expectantly sad,

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Speaker 1: these children's faces look. It took me a moment to

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Speaker 1: realize that, like this was a year after their father died,

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Speaker 1: was when their mother would have been painting this picture

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Speaker 1: of them. And I was like, that adds context I

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Speaker 1: hadn't immediately thought about. See, it's so funny to me

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Speaker 1: because I did not know that before you prepped this episode.

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Speaker 1: And I have always read that as kids looking very

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Speaker 1: bored on like a dat trapped inside, like because they

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Speaker 1: are just all kind of like fiddling with cards. The

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Speaker 1: what looks like probably her oldest son is like leaning

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Speaker 1: in across the table with his head on his hand,

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Speaker 1: And I've always been like, oh, these look like bored kids.

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Speaker 1: But now that I know the context, I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I was reading that probably completely wrong. They probably are

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Speaker 1: also bored. They were stuck inside a lot during that

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Speaker 1: whole period. I enjoy doing these six Impossible episodes from

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Speaker 1: time to time, and there is another podcast that I

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Speaker 1: like called ninety Invisible, and usually over the holidays, they

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Speaker 1: do many stories and I'm not able to keep up

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Speaker 1: with every episode of that show. But every time I

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Speaker 1: go to say, okay, what I want to listen to

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Speaker 1: you right now, if there's a mini stories of Invisible,

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Speaker 1: I get very excited because I don't know, I just

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Speaker 1: I like I like their deep dives into something that

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Speaker 1: takes a half an hour, and I also like the

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Speaker 1: thing that takes a couple of minutes per per topic.

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Speaker 1: Super fun. I Um, I couldn't help but think of

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Speaker 1: Katie Sandwina when we talked about Ella. Yeah, I hadn't

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Speaker 1: until just now, but that's a great comparison. Well, it's

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Speaker 1: one of those things I wonder about because like the

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Speaker 1: case of Katie Sandwina, who, in case anybody doesn't remember,

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Speaker 1: was like a strong woman. One of the things that

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Speaker 1: people always commented on was how she was stronger than

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Speaker 1: like any man they knew, but she was like hyper

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Speaker 1: feminine in her style and behavior. And I've always wondered

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Speaker 1: some of that is that, like, are you just like

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Speaker 1: doubling down on all of your traditionally feminine traits because

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Speaker 1: there's this weird disparity of what women people expect of

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Speaker 1: women and how they are normally supposed to be frail

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Speaker 1: and you are not. But it was interesting to note

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Speaker 1: in Ella's case too, that when she took pictures, she

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Speaker 1: was always dressed really well. And there's also a secondary level,

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Speaker 1: right of someone who has been born into poverty and

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Speaker 1: from a family that was enslaved, Like, there's a whole

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Speaker 1: other level to that sort of presentation of personhood, of

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Speaker 1: being you know, very refined and elegant, almost in some

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Speaker 1: cases as a form of rebellion um. But it's just

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Speaker 1: it made me think of the two of them, and

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Speaker 1: then I was like, wouldn't it be great if they admit?

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Speaker 1: That would be great. That's the That's the fictional play

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Speaker 1: I want to write, is like them at tea together. Oh,

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Speaker 1: that would be fun. There are two different pictures that

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Speaker 1: I found that of her with are of her with

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Speaker 1: one arm extended straight out at the shoulder and someone

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Speaker 1: else appearing to stand under and both of them, I

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Speaker 1: was like, these two pictures, I'm not saying they were staged,

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Speaker 1: but they were less convincing to me than other pictures

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Speaker 1: where there's one where somebody is standing next to her

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Speaker 1: and like adjusting her dress, and the disparity in their

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Speaker 1: height is the same. So it's like I almost feel

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Speaker 1: like the ones where her arm is extended out from

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Speaker 1: the shoulder, because it's so easy to do that perspective

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Speaker 1: trick in that posture, like lead your mind to that conclusion.

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Speaker 1: While there's like ones of her just candidly walking down

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Speaker 1: the street in a crowd, and she's head and shoulders

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Speaker 1: taller than everyone in the crowd, Like those struck me

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Speaker 1: as immediately believable, But my mind kept questioning the ones

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Speaker 1: with the arms straight out, even though the height difference

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Speaker 1: is the same there, And I was like, am I

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Speaker 1: just jaded now from having seen too many obviously altered photos?

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Speaker 1: What's happening? Maybe? Maybe, but also you know, it's always

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Speaker 1: good to question that stuff. Um, I have noticed I

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Speaker 1: was looking at some pictures of her that in some

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Speaker 1: there is a very clear to me, it seems like

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Speaker 1: a very clear and deliberate way of arranging the people

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Speaker 1: so that the person under her arm is also partially

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Speaker 1: behind and partially in front of her right, so like

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Speaker 1: their hip is slightly behind hers, but like they're gesturing

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Speaker 1: in front of her or something, which is an interesting

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Speaker 1: way to kind of say like, no, no, I'm really

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Speaker 1: standing next to this person. I am interacting with her

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Speaker 1: body from many sides. Yeah, it's just an interesting I

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Speaker 1: wonder if they started deliberately doing that or if I

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Speaker 1: am overreading. Yeah, I don't know. I wish we knew

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Speaker 1: more about her. Um, I would like to know did

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Speaker 1: she start that dressmaker shop? Like right, what happened? And

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Speaker 1: it's totally possible that there's more on that in you know,

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Speaker 1: some unexamined primary sources in South Carolina or many of

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Speaker 1: the places that she toured. I don't have them at

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Speaker 1: this point. Now. We talked about John jacob Astor, who

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Speaker 1: I have a very filthy nickname for that I can't

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Speaker 1: say on the podcast this week. It amused me. Also, UM,

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Speaker 1: I had a number points in the in the episode

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Speaker 1: or I said we'll talk about on Friday, and we will.

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Speaker 1: When I wanted to talk about was his son, William

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Speaker 1: and tenements. William actually had the nickname the Landlord of

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Speaker 1: New York City, even though he didn't own any tenements,

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Speaker 1: he wasn't administering any of them, etcetera. But he was

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Speaker 1: really kind of like above all of that on the

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Speaker 1: the food chain and enabling it to the point that,

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Speaker 1: like when there was discussion of an income tax on

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Speaker 1: landholders to cover you know, all of the things that

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Speaker 1: income taxes cover. He wanted to fight it all the

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Speaker 1: way to the Supreme Court is unconstitutional, and had the

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Speaker 1: money to make that a thing that took a very

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Speaker 1: long time to enact. UM. The other thing that came

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Speaker 1: up was in eighteen sixty seven, so this would have

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Speaker 1: been after John Jacob aster Uh. The first was dead

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Speaker 1: was that UM. In the eighteen sixties, there was a

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Speaker 1: lot of recognition that New York City had grown so

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Speaker 1: fast and was getting so tightly packed in some places

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Speaker 1: that it was a health crisis, and that there were

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Speaker 1: half a million people living in tenements that were in horrible,

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Speaker 1: upsetting conditions. The mortality rate for infants was very high

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Speaker 1: for a number of reasons, some of which we talked

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Speaker 1: about on the show. And one of the things that

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Speaker 1: the New York legislature tried to do was to say, hey,

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Speaker 1: if you have a lot of this allotment size that

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Speaker 1: by a hundred that was how lots were initially portioned out,

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Speaker 1: you have to leave forty percent of it for like

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Speaker 1: green space or usable space. I mean those were initially

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Speaker 1: intended for like a family to put up a home

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Speaker 1: and tie out a cow, that was it. And so

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Speaker 1: to have suddenly dozens and dozens of families living in

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Speaker 1: that space. Not great. William fought it and fought it

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Speaker 1: and fought it and got that number two reduced, I

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Speaker 1: think to something like five percent, and it's like great.

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Speaker 1: So you have a little strip of green next to

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Speaker 1: the sidewalk. You can thank William Master for that. Um

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Speaker 1: I wanted to quickly note that, like in other contexts,

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Speaker 1: a tenement is basically an apartment, and like higher density

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Speaker 1: housing is something we critically need from the world, but

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Speaker 1: like tenements as they were built, especially in like the

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Speaker 1: nineteenth and early twentieth century, were horribly overcrowded, and a

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Speaker 1: lot of them just like very shoddy construction, not hygienic,

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Speaker 1: not hygienic at all. And but then the fact that

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Speaker 1: people were living in these tenements was like used, it

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Speaker 1: reflected back on them in a pejorative way, and so

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Speaker 1: there was just a whole like the existence of these

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Speaker 1: tenements that were built by you know, extraordinarily rich people

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Speaker 1: to cram as many poorer people into a small space

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Speaker 1: to make as much money as possible became like a

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Speaker 1: scare point for attempts to try to build more livable

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Speaker 1: high density housing. That we really do need. Like that

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Speaker 1: became the specter of the tenement to undermine attempts to

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Speaker 1: build like actual robust, higher density housing that people could

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Speaker 1: live in in a safe and clean way. Yeah, these

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Speaker 1: were not not that they were part of the reason

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Speaker 1: that New York was struggling with dirt and whatnot in

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Speaker 1: the street because a lot of them had one bathroom

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Speaker 1: which then just got dumped into the street. I am

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Speaker 1: a very spoiled human. I live in a situation where

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Speaker 1: my husband and I each have our own bathrooms. If

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Speaker 1: we have a house guest, I lose my mind because

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Speaker 1: I have so I cannot imagine sharing a bathroom with

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Speaker 1: multiple other families I know will still do it. Please

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Speaker 1: know I'm recognizing what a spoiled human I am and

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Speaker 1: what privileges this comes from. But if you then keep

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Speaker 1: upping that number to three dozen families worth of people

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Speaker 1: sharing one bathroom, you can see how that's not livable.

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Speaker 1: Like that is too much, Um William, I have feelings. UM.

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Speaker 1: I did mention that I was going to talk about

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Speaker 1: Astor arriving in New York when there were twenty three

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Speaker 1: thousand residents, and how I came to wrap my head

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Speaker 1: around that number, and it made me laugh and laugh

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Speaker 1: at myself. I do not know what the current number

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Speaker 1: is for what's considered full capacity in Magic Kingdom, but

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Speaker 1: at one point it was okay, or at least that

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Speaker 1: is what a cast member once told me. And so

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Speaker 1: I was like, if all of the people in Magic

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Speaker 1: Kingdom were spread out around the island of Manhattan, it

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Speaker 1: would feel empty. Yeah, And that became like how I

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Speaker 1: thought about um, like on its busiest day, like in

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Speaker 1: a July, you know, when everybody's off of school and

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Speaker 1: and there are lots of families there. Um. That just

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Speaker 1: made me go like, oh, and now, of course I

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Speaker 1: don't even know the current population of Manhattan. It's in

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Speaker 1: the millions, I think, right, it's a lot. And so

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Speaker 1: uh yeah, that was just an interesting thing. The other thing, right,

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Speaker 1: we talked about how Astor was ruthlessly astute about buying

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Speaker 1: out foreclosures, essentially people that were like trying to get

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Speaker 1: a mortgage on their existing property so that they could

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Speaker 1: survive long enough to try to make money to pay

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Speaker 1: that mortgage off. And he did that so much, particularly

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Speaker 1: in seven when there was a big economic crisis that

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Speaker 1: the Court of Chancery got involved and was like, what

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Speaker 1: what are you doing here? What is this all legal? Um?

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Speaker 1: And because he and William were so careful about how

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Speaker 1: they structure deals, they got away with a lot of

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Speaker 1: stuff that probably would not fly today. Um, it's it's wild.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't until several generations later that descendants started going,

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Speaker 1: we have all the money. That seems weird. Maybe we

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Speaker 1: should give some of it back to some people. Maybe

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Speaker 1: we shouldn't have all this money. Yeah, I mean both uh,

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Speaker 1: John Jacob the first and his son William are typically

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Speaker 1: characterized as being very, very greedy and just being so

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Speaker 1: obsessed with kind of the rat race of accumulating more

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Speaker 1: and more and more that like they just had tunnel

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Speaker 1: vision about the impacts that was having on anyone else.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's interesting to me that somebody in four

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Speaker 1: there was a report, which is the same year that

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Speaker 1: Astor sold out his his FURST interests. There was a

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Speaker 1: report of like, hey, this isn't gonna work for much longer,

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Speaker 1: you guys, we are running out of buffalo and beavers.

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Speaker 1: And he didn't say, hey, you know what, we should

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Speaker 1: change this industry. He said, Okay, I'm gonna cash out, goodbye.

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Speaker 1: And even knowing that the people that he was selling

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Speaker 1: to we're going to be struggling through an industry that

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Speaker 1: was not gonna sustain long term and was going to

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Speaker 1: come crashing down, which it did. Um didn't there's no

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Speaker 1: mention of that, just like, yeah, can I have can

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Speaker 1: I have the money? Please? Thank you, enjoy your new companies, goodbye. Fascinating.

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Speaker 1: I'm very fascinated by this phase of history in the

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Speaker 1: US lately because there are so many things we kind

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Speaker 1: of take for granted about, like, oh, yes, the Asters

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Speaker 1: are of very wealthy, Well, how did they get all

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Speaker 1: that wealth? Like, yeah, we should really examine that. Certainly,

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Speaker 1: if you're wondering why we didn't mention the Waldorf astoria

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Speaker 1: that did not get built until later, it is a

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Speaker 1: reference to wald Or, where he was born, and to

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Speaker 1: the Asters. It was built by one of his descendants,

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Speaker 1: but not John Jacob the first. Later later, maybe we'll

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Speaker 1: talk more about them. Maybe we could do a series

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Speaker 1: on the Asters. Um, there are Asters living today who

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Speaker 1: do a lot of charitable works with their money, which

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Speaker 1: is great. I haven't researched them beyond that because that's

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Speaker 1: an invasion of privacy. And that's this week um, how

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Speaker 1: rich families became a thing in the United States. If

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Speaker 1: you are heading into your weekend, we hope that it

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Speaker 1: is time off and that it's delightful and then you

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Speaker 1: relax and do nice things for yourself. If it is

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Speaker 1: not time off, I still hope it's delightful and that

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Speaker 1: you can maybe squeak out a little time for yourself

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Speaker 1: here and there, do something fun, eat something delicious, maybe

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Speaker 1: have a laugh. That was really all you can ask

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Speaker 1: for in life. Um. We will be right back here

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Speaker 1: tomorrow with a classic and then on Monday brand new episodes.

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Speaker 1: Stuff you Missed in History Class is a production of

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