1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,480 Speaker 1: Hi, this is new due to the virus. I'm recording 2 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:05,440 Speaker 1: from home, so you may notice a difference in audio 3 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: quality on this episode of Luke's World. Doctor Tracy McKenzie 4 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: is an accomplished historian, author, and professor of history. After 5 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: twenty two years as a professor at the University of Washington, 6 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: he moved to Wheaton College in Illinois, where he holds 7 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: the Arthur Holmes Chair of Faith and Learning. Joy maintains 8 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 1: an extensive background in post Civil War history. While at 9 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: Wheaton College, Tracy has turned his focus towards the way 10 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:44,240 Speaker 1: American evangelicals remember their national Allege. One of many works 11 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: he authored, The First Thanksgiving, What the Real Story tells 12 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:52,560 Speaker 1: Us about loving God and learning from history. This book 13 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: provides an accurate account of the First Thanksgiving and gives 14 00:00:56,080 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: insight in the misconceptions about the origins of this class 15 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: sick American holiday and how it really ought to be. 16 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: So I'm really pleased to welcome my guest, doctor Tracy mackenzie. 17 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: Thank you very much for joining us. I just have 18 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: to ask you, giving all of your background in history, 19 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:27,559 Speaker 1: what motivated you to write this book? Great question. I'm 20 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: sort of going through an evolution as a teacher and scholar, 21 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: as is often the case, and I wanted to be 22 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: able to speak more to individuals outside of the walls 23 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: of the academy. I'm a Christian myself, and also I 24 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,119 Speaker 1: wanted to be able to speak to Christian readers about 25 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: how they remember the past. And I particularly was drawn 26 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: to the topic of Thanksgiving because I think, you know, 27 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: the way that we remember this event says so much 28 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: about how our memory the past intersects with our sense 29 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: of who we are, both our national heritage and our 30 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: faith heritage. And I thought Thanksgiving us a great way 31 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: to probe into that. So I knew that once throw 32 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 1: an article for the New York Times. So, taking apart 33 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 1: some of the common misconceptions Americans about the Pilgrims from 34 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:11,639 Speaker 1: your perspective, were you surprised with some of the things 35 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: you learned as you delved into the first thanks to 36 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,519 Speaker 1: I was surprised by all kinds of things. Actually, you know, 37 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: if you stop to think about it, very few of 38 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 1: us study the Pilgrims after grade school, so our understanding 39 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: of them sort of stays stuck at that level of understanding. So, yes, 40 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: a lot of things surprised me. I'll just mention a 41 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 1: couple that I think are the most consequential. I think 42 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 1: we actually often misunderstand or misremember what motivated the Pilgrims 43 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 1: to migrate to New England in the first place. Probably 44 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: the most common thing that you'll hear is that the 45 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: Pilgrims migrated in search of religious liberty, and I think 46 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: it's important to sort of complicate that. There's no doubt 47 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: that the Pilgrims felt deeply strongly about that, but they 48 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 1: actually something we don't recall often. We're not coming from 49 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: England to New England. They were coming from Holland and 50 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 1: where they were living in Leiden. As the Pilgrim writers 51 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: described it, they believed that they experienced remarkable religious freedom, 52 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: particularly for the context of the seventeenth century. So although 53 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: it was very important to them, it was not what 54 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: it was propelling them, And if that had been the 55 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 1: primary motivation, it's doubtful they would ever have left Leiden. 56 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: So they were actually motivated by other factors as well, 57 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: and we often sort of lose sight of those. The 58 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:30,959 Speaker 1: other thing that I think is maybe particularly relevant or 59 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:33,799 Speaker 1: consequential is how they remembered that event in the fall 60 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: of sixteen twenty one that we call the first Thanksgiving. 61 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: The Pilgrims, when they used the term Thanksgiving, meant something 62 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 1: very different from what we do, and I think it's 63 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: important at least to acknowledge that they thought of Thanksgiving 64 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:52,839 Speaker 1: as literally a holy day. They believed that the Scripture 65 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: authorized at least two kinds of holy days that both 66 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: were supposed to be irregular. One of these holy days 67 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 1: was a day of humiliation in fasting. They believed that 68 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: was modeled in the Old Testament scripture. If there seemed 69 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: to be an extraordinary trial that the community was experiencing, 70 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 1: they would declare this holy day of fasting and humiliation 71 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: to seek the Lord's deliverance. If they had some sort 72 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:22,919 Speaker 1: of extraordinary deliverance from a trial, they would declare a 73 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:27,039 Speaker 1: holy day to thank the Lord for his deliverance. The 74 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: If the end of sixteen twenty one really doesn't fit 75 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: either one of those Thanksgiving days the Pilgrims thought would 76 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 1: be spent in church, they would be long solemn affairs 77 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: with lots of prayer and worship, not playing games outdoors 78 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 1: and eating a huge meal. These were people who often 79 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 1: spent long periods in church, and I was surprised when 80 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: I went back. At one point was looking at the 81 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 1: early days in Virginia, which because historically I didn't talk 82 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 1: you know that the Pilgrims were really religious, but now 83 00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: when you went down to the Virginia colony it was 84 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 1: more commercial. We'll turn out they were in church like 85 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:06,600 Speaker 1: eight or nine times a week in Virginia, and I 86 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:08,799 Speaker 1: would have thought of that as a pretty serious commitment. 87 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 1: And so did the Pilgrims have a similar kind of 88 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: sort of church centric focus. Most definitely, there's no doubt 89 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 1: that they did their meeting house in the original settlement. 90 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 1: There was at the heart of the settlement. It served 91 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:27,239 Speaker 1: both for four actually originally and as their meeting house. 92 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: And yes, church was very central. One of the most 93 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 1: famous nineteenth century paintings of the Pilgrims shows the Pilgrims 94 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: sort of filing en route to the meeting house on 95 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,840 Speaker 1: a Sunday. They actually required church attendance. That was true. 96 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 1: Also a Jamestown that we often forget, there was a 97 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 1: fine for not attending church. And there's a famous entry 98 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: in Bradford's History of Plymouth Plantation as early as sixteen 99 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: twenty four where he says he sent assistant sort of 100 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: through the community, knocking on doors on Sunday morning and 101 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: rousting people out of bed who might have chosen to 102 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 1: sleep in. So, yes, the importance of the church was 103 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 1: central to their understanding of what they were about, and 104 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:11,919 Speaker 1: that was just as true or even truer in these 105 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: non established from churches as it was in the Church 106 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:20,600 Speaker 1: of England. Right. Absolutely, the Pilgrims had a variety of 107 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 1: objections to the Church of England, to their particular practice 108 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 1: and hierarchical structure, but they absolutely emphasize the centrality of 109 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 1: the church, and their desire to separate from the Anglican 110 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:37,039 Speaker 1: Church was never intended to reduce the importance of the 111 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: church to the life of the community, but just to 112 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 1: allow a different sort of expression of what they believed 113 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:48,840 Speaker 1: was God's right design. They arrived. They have very difficult 114 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 1: you don't They lose like a third of the requarter 115 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 1: of their population. It's actually higher than that. There's one 116 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: hundred and two passengers on the Mayflower, as William Bradford 117 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 1: lists them in its history, and fifty two of the 118 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: hundred and two die by the spring, so it's just 119 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 1: the hair over one half. And they actually don't die 120 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: on the voyage. There's only one fatality on the voyage itself, 121 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: but they die after arrival. They actually are going to 122 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 1: choose Plymouth as a permanent site for settlement just before 123 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: Christmas in sixteen twenty and that means that they have 124 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: to start the arduous work of building a settlement right 125 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: at the beginning of the winter. They actually live on 126 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: board the Mayflower, they have to wade ashore every day, 127 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: if you can imagine, through water up to their shoulders, 128 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: and they die of pneumonia, they die of exposure, and 129 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: almost every family is affected. There were eighteen married couples 130 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: on the Mayflower, and only three of those couples survived 131 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: that first winter in tact. So yeah, it just devastates 132 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: the community. And so when we think of that celebration 133 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: in the fall of sixteen twenty one, I just always 134 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: think it's so important to remember bird that it's a 135 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: celebration on the heels of that devastating winter, and every 136 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: person that was involved in that celebration would have been 137 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: effected very very directly by loss, which sort of on 138 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: a much grander scale, if I remember quickly, was a 139 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 1: pattern the Lincoln head when he officially proclaimed today of 140 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 1: Thanksgiving because it was in the middle of a civil war, 141 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: and you know, kind of odd way. You know, he's 142 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: asking me able to give thanks for what was really 143 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 1: an agony and for many of them, of personal loss 144 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: in their family. So Lincoln is not the first president 145 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 1: to issue a proclamation of Thanksgiving, but he actually issues 146 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: one in the middle of Civil War that becomes really 147 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: the first of consecutive proclamations ever since. And so that proclamation, 148 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: the first one he makes, is not long after the 149 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 1: Battle of Gettysburg, So it's that same year, in the 150 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: fall of eighteen sixty three, and Lincoln is asking his 151 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 1: fell Americans to express thanks and acknowled it's the kindness 152 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 1: of God. If you look at that first proclamation, it's 153 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 1: also very interesting he is doing something that presidents have 154 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: done almost ever after, which is to tell Americans in 155 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 1: particular what they should be thankful for. And Lincoln was 156 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: trying to make an argument that as tragic as a 157 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: conflict that had been, that God was giving the North 158 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:21,320 Speaker 1: victory and that there was every reason to expect that 159 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: the Union was going to be restored. To go back 160 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: to the original pilgrims, I confess I was of the 161 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: generation where we grew up eating turkey, and assuming that 162 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: it was kind of happy time and that the Indians 163 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: were deeply involved, that it was a much softer, more 164 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:41,839 Speaker 1: positive experience, that I might use it that way, and 165 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 1: with a little understanding of the trials and the tribulations 166 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 1: that the Pilgrims had gone through in order to achieve this. 167 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: To what extent is the whole concept of the Indians 168 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 1: being involved a myth? And to what extent were they 169 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 1: affect part of this experience. Yeah, it's a great question, 170 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 1: and it's a topic that is sort of fraught with 171 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 1: political implications today, and I think we tend to gravitate 172 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: toward one extreme or the other. Either I think exaggerating 173 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 1: the conflicts and hostility between the Pilgrims and the neighboring 174 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: Native American tribes, or we turn it into a kind 175 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: of Hallmark Channel warm and fuzzy interaction. And I think 176 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 1: it doesn't fit either of those. We have limited evidence 177 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:28,559 Speaker 1: on that relationship, particularly when we think about the sixteen 178 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 1: twenty one celebration itself. Almost everything we know about it 179 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 1: comes from a single letter written by one of the 180 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: Pilgrim columnists, man named Edward Winslow, and what he tells us, 181 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: among other things, is that Chief Massasoyet, who was the 182 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: head of the Wampanoad tribe, and his braves came among them. 183 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: That's the exact wording, you know, sort of that passive tense, 184 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: that came among them. What he doesn't say is that 185 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: they were invited. He says in the fact that they 186 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: showed up, and we know from other documents from the 187 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:01,559 Speaker 1: period that this was something that the Wampanoag we're doing regularly, 188 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: so much so that by the late summer preceding that 189 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: false celebration, the Pilgrims had actually sent a delegation to 190 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: the Wampanoag and said, we actually cannot feed you every 191 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 1: time that you come, and we're asking you to sort 192 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: of respect that. So I actually think probably the Wampanoag 193 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: arrived without invitation, but we also know that they arrived 194 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:24,680 Speaker 1: with some food of their own, and that was probably 195 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 1: pretty welcome. I think the relationship more broadly between the 196 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 1: Pilgrims and the Native American people's was complicated. Some of 197 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: those tribes in the areas the Pilgrims have quite a 198 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 1: bit of conflict with, including violent conflict, leading to death. 199 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: But the relationship with the Wampanoag may have been tense, 200 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 1: but it was a positive relationship on the whole. Effectively, 201 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 1: the Pilgrims strike a kind of treaty with the Wampanoag 202 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 1: that lasts for half a century. I think they think 203 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: of themselves as allies, even if maybe a little bit 204 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: strained at times or sometimes uncomfortable. I think in the 205 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 1: long run, you'd have to characterize it as a successful 206 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 1: positive interaction that they had. Were they allied against other tribes, 207 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: that's exactly right. So there's actually any number of Native 208 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: American tribes in the area around the coastal Massachusetts, and 209 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 1: the area had been destabilized historians believe, actually only in 210 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 1: the last few years before the Pilgrim's arrival by disease. 211 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 1: I'm not sure exactly what the disease was, but it 212 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,680 Speaker 1: clearly had a virulent effect on the population there. But 213 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:35,679 Speaker 1: it had an uneven effect, so that some tribes had 214 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 1: been effected pretty significantly. Other tribes had been affected not 215 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: at all. There was a tribe actually that lived on 216 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: the side at Plymouth, the Patuxet, that had been literally 217 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: wiped out entirely. So this had pretty much destabilized the 218 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:52,959 Speaker 1: relations between the Native American peoples, and I think the 219 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: wampano would probably do see the arrival of the Pilgrims 220 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:01,199 Speaker 1: as a potential ally, at least in the short term, 221 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 1: because they have been effected very much by the disease 222 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 1: and they are I think fearful of being overrun by 223 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: tribes like the Massachusetts Indians, which were nearby. I guess 224 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: it's noting that the number one disruptor of Native American 225 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: life in that period it was actually a disease, and 226 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 1: because they had no historic experience with things like measles, 227 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:28,839 Speaker 1: their populations were something we can appreciate. The middle of 228 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 1: the pandemic, they were just getting hit with wave after 229 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 1: wave of a variety of diseases that were taking, in 230 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 1: some cases devastating tolls of the population. So there was 231 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 1: a huge disruption under way, driven really by biology rather 232 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:50,559 Speaker 1: than European aggression. That's very much the case. Probably contact 233 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 1: with sailors, with traders maybe, but you're right, unintended, impossible 234 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: to anticipate or predict, but very significant in its effect. 235 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 1: How should we look back on the subperience is thanksgiving 236 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 1: something since it's now so deeply embedded that we should 237 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: in fact celebrate a sort of a quintessentially American experience, 238 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 1: even if it started very differently than our first and 239 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 1: second great classes might have taught us well. I mean, 240 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 1: I certainly like to celebrate Thanksgiving, and I think in 241 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 1: many respects we would think of it as a quintessential 242 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: American holiday. As a historian, where I want to stand 243 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: up and object is when we believe that we are 244 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 1: absolutely falling in the steps of the Pilgrims and what 245 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 1: we are doing, because the reality is they actually would 246 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 1: have objected to a regularly prescribed day of Thanksgiving. They 247 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: thought it should be irregular and it should be always 248 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 1: in tune with their understanding of God's extraordinary work, either 249 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 1: in blessing or judgment. And the other thing I think 250 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: is worth noting is that what we understand as a 251 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: sort of traditional celebration of Thanksgiving doesn't date from the 252 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: seventeenth century. It actually dates from the late nineteenth century. 253 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 1: There was a writer named Jane Austen, and I always 254 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: have to stop and spell that last name. Her last 255 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: name was a Usti n So she was not the 256 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: author of Pride and Prejudice and other novels. By that 257 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 1: English author Jane Austen was a Massachusetts housewife in the 258 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: eighteen eighties and eighteen nineties who wrote romance novels, and 259 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: she wrote a novel called Standish of Standish, which described, 260 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: probably for the first time, for broad American audience, this 261 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: vision of a community gathering for Thanksgiving celebration that was 262 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: picked up by popular magazines and serialized, and then artists 263 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 1: began to render it. So most everything that we associate 264 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 1: with historical origins of the holiday comes about two and 265 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: a half centuries after the fact. But it has been 266 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: something that Americans have found unifying. Not always Thanksgiving. Actually, 267 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: when it begins to be celebrated, it's primarily celebrated in 268 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: New England and not in the South. The Pilgrims actually 269 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 1: did not believe you should celebrate Christmas. They didn't think 270 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 1: that that was a holiday that was prescribed in scripture. 271 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: And so in New England you make Thanksgiving the big 272 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: holiday and you sort of pass on Christmas. And in 273 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 1: the Southern States, you make Christmas the big holiday and 274 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 1: you pass on Thanksgiving because it's a Yankee holiday and 275 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 1: you don't want any part of that. And it's really 276 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 1: sort of toward the end of the eighteen nineties that 277 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 1: you can begin to say that Thanksgiving is something that 278 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 1: all regions of the country embrace. Like so many things, 279 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: traditions that we believe are sort of inscribed in the 280 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: distant past are newer than we realized. But it has 281 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: been a holiday for the most part, that is less commercial, 282 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: that is less politicized, as more unifying, and in all 283 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:10,679 Speaker 1: those ways, I think we would say it's been positive 284 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 1: on the whole in its role as a historian, I 285 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: was intrigued you say at one point, quote, at its best, 286 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 1: the study of history always involves a simultaneous encounter with 287 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:29,119 Speaker 1: both the familiar and the strange. And it's a great phrase. 288 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 1: Can you explain what you mean by Yeah? Absolutely. I 289 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:35,919 Speaker 1: love to talk about that with my students. It basically 290 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: is suggesting that, you know, anytime we encounter individuals from 291 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 1: another time or place, we're going to encounter beings that 292 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,919 Speaker 1: share certain ways of thinking and looking at the world 293 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: with us, and almost always have ways of thinking and 294 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 1: looking at the world that are different from those that 295 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 1: we would hold. And the danger that we have is 296 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: to gravitate toward one extreme or the other. So we 297 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 1: might look at individuals in the past, and we would 298 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 1: say they are so bizarre, they're so strange or foreign 299 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 1: to us, that there's nothing that we can learn from them, 300 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 1: there's no way that we can relate to them. Or 301 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:15,719 Speaker 1: on the other hand, we might say they're just like 302 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:19,199 Speaker 1: our neighbors and funny clothes. We see things exactly the 303 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,160 Speaker 1: same way. And the irony is that both of those 304 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: extremes ensure that we don't learn anything. We don't learn 305 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: anything that would actually enrich our lives or perhaps challenge 306 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,879 Speaker 1: us to think more deeply about what we believe. I 307 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 1: think we always sort of go to the past with 308 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:38,360 Speaker 1: the idea that there are both of these elements at play, 309 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:41,400 Speaker 1: and what we want to make sure I would suggest 310 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,399 Speaker 1: is that we at least take seriously those things that 311 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: are different, because it's the ways that individuals from the 312 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 1: past are different from us that we actually encounter the 313 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: opportunity to learn from them. I firmly believe that the 314 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 1: Pilgrims believed in things that at the very least would 315 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 1: be good for us to hear, to wrestle with, and 316 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 1: to think about deeply before we dismiss them. That's the idea. 317 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: I'm such an evangelist for history. I actually believe there's 318 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 1: so much that we can learn from the past, but 319 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: we have to be careful about these habits that we 320 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:16,399 Speaker 1: have of either making the past totally exotic or making 321 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 1: it just like the present. You're a very interesting distinction, 322 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: which I found very helpful. When you reminded us that 323 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,640 Speaker 1: we need heroes in history, but not idols. I think 324 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 1: that's really a wonderful formula. Can you elaborate a little 325 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 1: bit of what you mean by the notion that we 326 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 1: do need heroes, but even our heroes can't become idols. 327 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 1: That's right. When I think of an idol, I think 328 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:45,399 Speaker 1: of someone that we believe we have to follow that 329 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,640 Speaker 1: person's example or that group's example. We have to submit 330 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 1: to their convictions because they have some sort of absolute 331 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:56,439 Speaker 1: authority over our lives. And I don't think that that 332 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 1: is ever healthy, And from a Christian perspective, that's actually wrong. 333 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:04,199 Speaker 1: It's not appropriate to treat anyone but God alone in 334 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: that way. But on the other hand, we don't want 335 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:11,239 Speaker 1: to dismiss individuals who have something to teach us and 336 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: disregard them either simply because they're old or outdated, or 337 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,920 Speaker 1: they're dead. White males or whatever dismissive language we might 338 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: want to use. So when I say we need to 339 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: search for heroes, I mean we absolutely should be searching 340 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 1: for role models. We should be searching for individuals that 341 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 1: embodied values or characteristics that we want to affirm, that 342 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: we want to hold up as sort of ideals to pursue. 343 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: But that does not free us from applying discernment, from 344 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 1: thinking carefully and critically about them, because, again, to use 345 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:50,120 Speaker 1: a Christian perspective, everyone but God alone is fallen, so 346 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 1: we all fall short in some ways, and so sort 347 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:58,680 Speaker 1: of making absolute the model of any human being is inappropriate. 348 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 1: But being able with discernment to identify values that we 349 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,920 Speaker 1: admire and want to replicate in finding individuals who modeled them, 350 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 1: I think is something we ought to be about regularly. Well, 351 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 1: in that tradition, what do you think Americans can learn 352 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 1: from the Pilgrims. I actually think there's a long list 353 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: of things. I think we start with the kind of 354 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 1: courage and determination that they showed simply in their undertaking 355 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 1: of coming to New England. The logistical obstacles, if we 356 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 1: think back to that seventeenth century context, the logistical obstacles 357 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,679 Speaker 1: of trying to relocate even a group of only one 358 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: hundred individuals across an ocean to a distant continent. It's 359 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:43,640 Speaker 1: a little like trying to colonize Mars, I think, to 360 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:47,400 Speaker 1: us today. So they showed enormous determination in that regard, 361 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: enormous perseverance when sort of their worst nightmares were realizing 362 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:56,160 Speaker 1: that first winter. Of course, both of those things are admirable. 363 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 1: I think the Pilgrims would challenge us in a variety 364 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,919 Speaker 1: of ways. I mean, of the things that they absolutely raised, 365 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 1: the highest ideal was a commitment to the general welfare. 366 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: They were not actually nearly so individualistic as Americans I 367 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:16,239 Speaker 1: think are mostly today, and so there's a kind of 368 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:20,120 Speaker 1: self sacrifice, a self denial for the common good that 369 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:24,399 Speaker 1: they're constantly promoting. They fall short of it sometimes, but 370 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:29,120 Speaker 1: it's an ideal that they absolutely take seriously. I admire that. 371 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: I think even as the language that they used occasionally 372 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,439 Speaker 1: to describe themselves as important, they didn't regularly refer to 373 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:40,440 Speaker 1: one another as Pilgrims. We and Bradford did use that terminology. 374 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 1: One of their deacons, Robert Cushman, did, And when they 375 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,919 Speaker 1: used that terminology, they were reflecting a real mindset. The 376 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: idea that they were passing through this world, that their 377 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 1: ultimate hope was not in temporal things, was I think 378 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,719 Speaker 1: absolutely sort of woven into the warp and woof of 379 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: their society and of their worldview, And of course I 380 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:08,400 Speaker 1: admire that greatly. When you think about Thanksgiving this year, 381 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 1: what are the kind of lessons from the first Thanksgiving 382 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:16,400 Speaker 1: that you think we should all get attention to. Oh, 383 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,159 Speaker 1: probably a variety of things would come to mind, but 384 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:23,400 Speaker 1: one of the most obvious is simply that they modeled 385 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:29,159 Speaker 1: a kind of mindset which said that everything good in 386 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: their lives was a mercy, an expression or extension of 387 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 1: God's grace, and they believed that there were always reasons 388 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: to be thankful. Again, I go back to that context 389 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 1: for that first sixteen twenty one celebration, when there are 390 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:50,479 Speaker 1: eighteen married couples that have been separated by death, there 391 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 1: are twenty six families, all but four of them have 392 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 1: lost at least one member, and they are able to 393 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: proclaim God's goodness, fine joy away, find reasons for gratitude 394 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: and for hope. In particular, just that mindset of hope 395 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: just strikes me and it humbles me when I think 396 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: about it, So that's where I think we start in 397 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 1: learning from them. Listen, I really appreciate your sharing with us, 398 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 1: and we're going to have your book listed on our 399 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 1: show page, and I think it's a great read for 400 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 1: this time of year. And I appreciate you taking the 401 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,399 Speaker 1: time and showing the leadership to delve into this and 402 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:35,199 Speaker 1: to make it so clear. And I really appreciate you 403 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: doing this for folks who want to learn more about 404 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: Thanksgiving at this appropriate time. Well, I appreciate that. It's 405 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 1: been a pleasure talking with you, and I just wish 406 00:24:45,280 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 1: you and all of your audience a wonderful Thanksgiving. It 407 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 1: was really great to have a historian light doxor Tracy 408 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 1: Mackenzie carry us through that first Thanksgiving from a historic perspective, 409 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 1: and I have to say it's a little different than 410 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 1: my perspective. I remember when I was young, we always 411 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 1: went up to Lewistown, Pennsylvania to my Aunt Toots and 412 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 1: Uncle Red's, and the whole family would gather and we 413 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 1: would get a giant turkey. Of course, I was like 414 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 1: six or seven, so giant was a relative word. But 415 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:38,879 Speaker 1: one of my great goals was always here at the 416 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: turkey leg which I guess was a little bit selfish, 417 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 1: but I confess I really liked turkey legs. I also 418 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,679 Speaker 1: really like Cranberry's, So I always thought we had a 419 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 1: great Thanksgiving, and people would watch football in the afternoon, Red, 420 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 1: who worked really, really hard, would almost always take about 421 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 1: a forty minute nap, laying on the couch in the 422 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: middle of the living room, and people sit around in 423 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,440 Speaker 1: gossip and would fill up with smells of pumpkin pie 424 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,920 Speaker 1: and apple pie and turkey dressing and everything else. So 425 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: I actually had sort of a culinary Thanksgiving at the 426 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,200 Speaker 1: heart of my experience. And then as a really little kid, 427 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 1: I did all the things that doctor mackenzie was describing. 428 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 1: We looked at the modernized version of Pilgrims, the black 429 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:26,639 Speaker 1: hats and the outfits, the Native Americans coming to lunch, 430 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 1: and it was all kind of fascinating and obviously very 431 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,680 Speaker 1: different from the actual Thanksgiving, and very different from Thanksgiving 432 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: as it's evolved since then past. I've been very fortunate 433 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:40,879 Speaker 1: in having been able to go for a number of 434 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,879 Speaker 1: years to the North American College in Rome, which is 435 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: the Seminary, the pope seminary for American priests to come 436 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 1: to and they always have a terrific Thanksgiving dinner, and 437 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 1: they always organize all of their seminarians by state, so 438 00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,119 Speaker 1: we get to go to the Pennsylvania, the Georgia, the 439 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 1: Wisconsin and see people. It's a wonderful time of fellowship 440 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 1: and of giving thanks a really feeling that the year 441 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 1: has been amazing, and it's always been amazing. This year 442 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 1: is different than most because this year includes the whole 443 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 1: pandemic crisis, which in Italy is once again closing things down. 444 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 1: But I think even in the middle of the pandemic, 445 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 1: most of us have so much to be thankful for, 446 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: starting with life itself, with relatives, of friends, with the 447 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:35,119 Speaker 1: ability to dream and to recognize it. At some point, 448 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: the pandemic will disappear, just as it did back in 449 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighteen nineteen Spanish flu cycle, and the life 450 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: will go on and that we will have a chance 451 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: to continue to develop. I also think that there's really 452 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 1: something to the tradition which Washington briefly started and then 453 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,239 Speaker 1: Lincoln picked up on during the Civil War, and that 454 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 1: is the notion that there's much to give thanks for it, 455 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,680 Speaker 1: and that to take a day and turn to God 456 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,880 Speaker 1: give a heartfelt prayer for your friends, for yourself. We 457 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: have several friends who have significant health challenges, and this 458 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 1: is a great Thanksgiving to ask God's blessing on them. 459 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 1: The power of prayer, I think is real, and I 460 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,640 Speaker 1: know of cases where it's had a huge your back. 461 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: This is a wonderful time of year, even with all 462 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 1: the problems we currently have, even with all the challenges 463 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:31,959 Speaker 1: we cared to have, and I hope that each of 464 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 1: you will have a wonderful Thanksgiving, whether with your family 465 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 1: or have separated, by getting with them by phone call, 466 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 1: or by zoom or by some device FaceTime, you name it. 467 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 1: We have many more ways of sharing together than we 468 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: used to, even when we're geographically separate, and I know 469 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to calling both my daughters and their 470 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: husbands and tracking down my grandchildren, Kristen. I will spend 471 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 1: a fair amount of Thanksgiving talking to all over the 472 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 1: world and sharing thanks to God for all the different 473 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 1: blessings we've had over the last year, and frankly asking 474 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 1: God's blessing on the coming year on helping all of 475 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: us everywhere on the planet overcome this epidemic and move 476 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 1: on into a healthier and better feature. So I'm delighted 477 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 1: to be able to share happy Thanksgiving with everyone who 478 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 1: listens to the podcasts, and I hope you will pass 479 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 1: that on to your friends. I also want to thank 480 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 1: my guest doctor Tracy Mackenzie. You can read more about 481 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 1: his book, The First Thanks You on our show page 482 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 1: at Newtsworld dot com. News World is produced by Gamers 483 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 1: three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Debbie Myers, 484 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: our producer is Guardzislam, and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. 485 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penny. 486 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 1: Special thanks to the theme at g English three sixty. 487 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 1: Please seem helm me with your questions at Gingrich three 488 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 1: sixty dot com slash questions. I'll answer a selection of 489 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 1: questions in future episodes. If you've been enjoying New to World, 490 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 1: I hope you'll go to Apple Podcasts then both rate 491 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: us with five stars and give us a review so 492 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 1: others can learn what it's all about. I'm new Gingrich. 493 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: This is new to World.