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Speaker 1: Welcome to Tech Stuff, a production of I Heart Radios

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Speaker 1: How Stuff Works. Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff.

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Speaker 1: I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with

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Speaker 1: I Heart Radio and How Stuff Works, and I love

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Speaker 1: all things tech and I thought maybe we should do

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Speaker 1: a little update about electronic scooters. For those of you

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Speaker 1: who have been listening to the show for a while,

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Speaker 1: you might remember that back in November two thousand eighteen,

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Speaker 1: it's a little less than a year ago, I did

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Speaker 1: an episode about where these East scooter companies came from

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Speaker 1: and how they were forming their business models, and how

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Speaker 1: they were popping up in cities all across the world,

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Speaker 1: and how those cities were reacting to them. And since

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Speaker 1: it's been about a year, I thought we should revisit that.

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Speaker 1: And part of the reason I decided to do this,

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Speaker 1: it's actually because there have been some high profile tragedies

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Speaker 1: on fortunately in two thousand nineteen with regards to UH

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Speaker 1: these eat scooters, UM, some of which have happened here

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Speaker 1: in Atlanta. We've had UH three or four accidents with

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Speaker 1: East scooters recently in Atlanta News, including a couple with fatalities,

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Speaker 1: which is a horrible horrible tragedy obviously, and it raises

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Speaker 1: a lot of questions about what do we do to

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Speaker 1: make sure that these scooters, if we're going to have

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Speaker 1: them in our cities, that people are using them appropriately,

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Speaker 1: that we're having all the right legislation in place so

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Speaker 1: that people know what the rules are, and that we

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Speaker 1: can make sure that if in fact they're here to stay,

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Speaker 1: that no one is going to have a tragedy like that, again,

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Speaker 1: to the best of our ability, knowing that we can't

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Speaker 1: prevent everything. And there have been other accidents as well.

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Speaker 1: There was a very high profile accident in London where

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Speaker 1: a YouTuber was in involved in a cry fashion around

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Speaker 1: about and she sadly passed away from her injuries. And

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Speaker 1: I should add that in London it's against the law

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Speaker 1: to ride east scooters at all. You can't. You're not

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Speaker 1: supposed to ride them on the roads or on the

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Speaker 1: sidewalks or pavements as they say. So in this episode,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna look a little bit about what's been going

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Speaker 1: on in the scooter world over the last year, some

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Speaker 1: of the challenges that the industry faces and the ways

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Speaker 1: that they're trying to go about meeting those challenges. So

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Speaker 1: before I jump into all that, I want to talk

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Speaker 1: about my own personal experience, not writing scooters, because spoiler alert,

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Speaker 1: I have not done that. I have not hopped on

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Speaker 1: one of these scooters, but my experience navigating a world

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Speaker 1: in which these scooters play a large part. Now Here,

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Speaker 1: in Atlanta we have specific law regarding scooter use. I

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Speaker 1: don't know how widely understood or unknown they are, but

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Speaker 1: in Atlanta it is technically against the law to ride

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Speaker 1: a scooter on the sidewalk or pavement. This is not unusual.

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Speaker 1: There are a lot of cities that have similar laws.

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Speaker 1: And if you are riding a scooter, you are supposed

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Speaker 1: to do it either on a road, preferably in a

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Speaker 1: bike lane if there is one. Atlanta has a shortage

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Speaker 1: of those, or you can ride it on a kind

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Speaker 1: of a special pathway. There are a few of those

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Speaker 1: in Atlanta. Big one is called the belt Line, and

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Speaker 1: the belt Line is part of this pedestrian walkway and

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Speaker 1: bicycle lane and and now scooter lane as well that

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Speaker 1: stretches a good way around downtown Atlanta. And the office

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Speaker 1: that I work in is right off the belt line,

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Speaker 1: so I walk to and from work and about a

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Speaker 1: mile of my walk is along this particular pathway, and

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Speaker 1: on nice days it gets fairly congested with lots of

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Speaker 1: people who are out there to enjoy the day. Perfectly understandable.

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Speaker 1: And the thing that really prompted me to talk about

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Speaker 1: this today happened on the Saturday before I record this episode.

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Speaker 1: Typically on a Saturday, you wouldn't find me anywhere near

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Speaker 1: the belt Line because I would probably be playing video

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Speaker 1: games at home, or running errands with my wife for

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Speaker 1: walking my dog, or something called on those lines. But

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Speaker 1: on this particular Saturday, I had decided that I needed

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Speaker 1: to go to the gym, which is in the same

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Speaker 1: building as where my office is. So I took the

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Speaker 1: three mile walk to get here, and that last mile

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Speaker 1: was torture. It was so crowded. It was a nice day,

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Speaker 1: and there were tons of people on the belt line

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Speaker 1: and about half of them were on scooters. And it

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Speaker 1: was odd to be in a traffic congestion situation where

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Speaker 1: the vehicle in question wasn't a car and it wasn't

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Speaker 1: even a bicycle, but it was this, you know, just

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Speaker 1: this huge number of scooters. And in Atlanta we have

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Speaker 1: quite a few of those companies represented. You know, you

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Speaker 1: have Lime, you have Bird, and you've got a bunch

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Speaker 1: of others. Um Lift has some scooters around town as well, So, uh,

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Speaker 1: this was you know, there's no shortage of of representation

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Speaker 1: on the belt line. And as I was walking there

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Speaker 1: and watching people wobble around on these things, some people

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Speaker 1: going quite well, but you couldn't know one could go

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Speaker 1: fast because there's just too many people out there on

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Speaker 1: the belt line that it it occurred to me that

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Speaker 1: we need to have some deeper discussions about safety and

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Speaker 1: responsibility and accountability as far as these scooters are concerned.

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Speaker 1: And UM, I also saw a lot of people violating

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Speaker 1: some of the rules for scooters, one of them being

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Speaker 1: that it's only supposed to be one person per scooter,

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Speaker 1: and I saw quite a few cups doubled up, and uh,

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Speaker 1: that's against that's against the law in Atlanta, folks. For

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Speaker 1: those of you who are in Atlanta and listen to

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Speaker 1: this show and also write scooters, just want to let

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Speaker 1: you know that you're you're you're breaking the law there.

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Speaker 1: It's also against the law and a lot of other places.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about some of the challenges that scooters

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Speaker 1: have faced in the past year. UM and one of

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Speaker 1: the big ones that I think I should cover is

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Speaker 1: just the challenge of the business model itself. For the

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Speaker 1: business model to work, this is pretty common sense stuff.

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Speaker 1: But you've got to make sure you're bringing in more

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Speaker 1: money than you're spending. I mean, that's just typical business, right,

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Speaker 1: there's nothing special about that. You have to make more

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Speaker 1: than it costs to operate the business, otherwise you're in

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Speaker 1: a money losing situation and sooner or later you have

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Speaker 1: to go out of business. And Bird, one of the

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Speaker 1: big companies doing this, was is in a situation where

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Speaker 1: some people were questioning whether or not the company was

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Speaker 1: going to survive. It had raised something like seven hundred

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Speaker 1: million dollars in investment funding, and it apparently had lost

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Speaker 1: a hundred million dollars in the first quarter of two

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Speaker 1: thousand nineteen and was in uh some serious trouble and

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Speaker 1: was already looking at its next round of fundraising in

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Speaker 1: order to stay in business. Now on to get the

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Speaker 1: full picture here. The CEO of Birds said one that

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Speaker 1: hundred million dollars actually represented it right off, and it

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Speaker 1: was a rite off for older scooters that didn't have

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Speaker 1: the durability that they needed for this business model. To work,

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Speaker 1: and two that they were actually making a profit on

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Speaker 1: a per ride basis of more than a dollar per ride.

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Speaker 1: So they were saying this is representative of a business

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Speaker 1: that can scale and it will be profitable in the

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Speaker 1: long run. But there are investors who questioned this and

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Speaker 1: ask does it actually cost more to maintain, to repair, replace,

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Speaker 1: to ship over all these scooters, not to mention to

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Speaker 1: ensure them in some cases. Also in a lot of cities,

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Speaker 1: you have to apply for a permit to operate that

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Speaker 1: business within the city, which could be several thousand dollars.

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Speaker 1: All these costs start to add up, and if they

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Speaker 1: add up too much, then you cannot make money off

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Speaker 1: that business. You will just be constantly trying to raise

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Speaker 1: funds while you try to dial in your business plan

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Speaker 1: to complicate matters. There's all this competition in the field,

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Speaker 1: so if you were the only game in town, then

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Speaker 1: you could presumably start to raise the prices on the

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Speaker 1: per ride basis for your customers and they would either

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Speaker 1: pay that or they'd be walking or taking a bike

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Speaker 1: or taking a car everywhere because there's nowhere else to go.

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Speaker 1: But because you have all this competition in this space,

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Speaker 1: there's also the opportunity for these different services to kind

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Speaker 1: of undercut each other on price in the hopes of

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Speaker 1: waiting out their competitors and get them out of the market.

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Speaker 1: So if I'm running my own e scooter business and

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Speaker 1: I've got a decent enough cushion financially to land on,

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Speaker 1: I might say, well, you can use my service, and

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Speaker 1: it's cheaper. So you can use the exact same sort

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Speaker 1: of scooters. They just have my branding on them. They

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Speaker 1: go the same speed. You will be able to use

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Speaker 1: them just as frequently as you would any other and

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Speaker 1: it's going to cost you less money. I might be

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Speaker 1: able to win over some of the other customers. They

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Speaker 1: might actually seek out my scooters as opposed to someone

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Speaker 1: else's and then exacerbate the problem of a company that's

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Speaker 1: already having some issues. Whether or not Bird really is

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Speaker 1: in financial trouble is a matter of debate. Uh, they

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Speaker 1: are looking to raise more money, they are the leader

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Speaker 1: in the space, and um, it's possible that everything's working

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Speaker 1: out just fine now. If in fact their new scooters

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Speaker 1: are more durable and they need you were repair and

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Speaker 1: maintenance costs, it might be fine. But it's one of

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Speaker 1: those questions that has remained unanswered in the investment world,

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Speaker 1: in the tech world, and it is entirely possible that

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Speaker 1: what we're seeing is just a scooter bubble and that

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Speaker 1: it's going to fizzle out, not because of any regulation issue,

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Speaker 1: but simply through an economic barrier that they can't surmount.

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Speaker 1: What is not in question is the the enthusiastic corresponse

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Speaker 1: among users on the East scooter market. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: clear that they're a hit, so we know at least

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Speaker 1: there's a demand for it. The question is will the

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Speaker 1: demand and the supply workout, Will it with the economics

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Speaker 1: workout so that it makes sense to operate as a business.

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Speaker 1: That part remains to be seen. So that's one update,

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Speaker 1: is just the fact that we still don't know whether

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Speaker 1: or not this is this is a business that's going

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Speaker 1: to stick around. Uh. It also is, of course encountering

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Speaker 1: lots of potential resistance. Um that's tricky as well, because

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Speaker 1: laws are not uniform on the industry across the world,

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Speaker 1: let alone across not even in in in the country,

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Speaker 1: it's not even across the countries. So in the United States,

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Speaker 1: there's no federal law that mandates how these companies must perform.

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Speaker 1: How they must behave, or even how you must operate

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Speaker 1: an e scooter on US roads that falls to a

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Speaker 1: city by city basis, so we're talking city governments, which

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Speaker 1: means you might be following all the rules in Atlanta,

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Speaker 1: for example, when you rent one of these, and then

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Speaker 1: you may go visit another city like Austin, Texas, or

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Speaker 1: San Francisco, California, and you might not even be aware

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Speaker 1: that you're violating local laws because they're different. There there's

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Speaker 1: no unifying set of regulations and laws that oversee this,

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Speaker 1: so that makes it a very tricky situation as well.

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Speaker 1: Then you have places, like I said in London where

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Speaker 1: you can buy these e scooters, but technically you can't

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Speaker 1: write them anywhere, at least not in public, and uh,

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Speaker 1: that is causing confusion. Not everybody knows about this, and

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of questions about who is ultimately responsible

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Speaker 1: for learning all these things as up to the individual writers,

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Speaker 1: is it up to the companies. Most of these companies

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Speaker 1: have user agreements that you're supposed to click through or

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Speaker 1: you can actually rent one of the scooters, but we

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Speaker 1: all know nobody reads those agreements, and some of them

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Speaker 1: are incredibly long. One of them had more than eighteen

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Speaker 1: thousand words. That's too long if you're ready to rent

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Speaker 1: a scooter. I don't know anyone in Atlanta who is

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Speaker 1: going to put on their reading glasses and page through

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Speaker 1: eighteen thousand words in order to fully understand the agreement

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Speaker 1: that they are signing on too before they hop onto

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Speaker 1: a scooter and jet down the belt line. Anyway, that's

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Speaker 1: just the beginning of the challenges around East scooters. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to talk a little bit more about some of

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Speaker 1: the other issues in just a second, but first, let's

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Speaker 1: take a quick break. Okay, let's talk about some of

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Speaker 1: the challenges around scooters. Besides the fact about the confusion

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Speaker 1: around laws, we don't really know how the business model

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Speaker 1: is going to fan out. Let's talk about some of

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Speaker 1: the complaints a lot of people have, whether they are

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Speaker 1: people who are using these scooters or more likely the

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Speaker 1: people who aren't using the scooters, so grouchy old people

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Speaker 1: like me. Uh And I fully admit I'm a grouchy

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Speaker 1: old person who doesn't use scooters, and I have a

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Speaker 1: lot of thoughts about scooters in particular. Now, to get

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Speaker 1: it out of the way, I do think these scooters

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Speaker 1: are a good idea. I like the idea of people

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Speaker 1: having an alternative for that last mile problem of getting

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Speaker 1: around those short distances, and I would much prefer to

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Speaker 1: see them using something like a scooter than a car

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Speaker 1: to do that. But it's not really certain that that's

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Speaker 1: what people are doing. If people were in fact replacing

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Speaker 1: car rides with scooter rides, then you could argue this

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Speaker 1: is alleviating traffic issue. It's got a lower environmental impact,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of lower wear and tear impact on the infrastructure.

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Speaker 1: You would think of that as a good thing. But

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Speaker 1: according to at least some surveys, that doesn't appear to

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Speaker 1: be the way a lot of people are using these devices.

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Speaker 1: There was a survey and Raleigh, North Carolina where they

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Speaker 1: were asking people who were using the scooters why were

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Speaker 1: they using it, like, for what purpose? And about a

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Speaker 1: third of them answered that they were using them for

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Speaker 1: trips that they would otherwise use a car to do.

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Speaker 1: But two thirds of them we're using them for either

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Speaker 1: just you know, just to go out and have fun

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Speaker 1: on a scooter because they are fun to ride. That

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Speaker 1: they from what I understand, I haven't done it personally,

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Speaker 1: but you can really zoom around on those things, and

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Speaker 1: once you've got your balance, it's apparently pretty addicting to

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Speaker 1: go out there and just kind of have fun. So

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Speaker 1: there is an appeal there, so some people will just

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Speaker 1: ride them just to ride them. They're not riding them

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Speaker 1: in order to get from point A to point B.

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Speaker 1: It's all about the journey, not the destination. But that

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Speaker 1: means that you're not saving anything by doing it right.

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Speaker 1: You're not sparing the city another car ride. Maybe you

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Speaker 1: would have just stayed home instead of getting on that scooter.

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Speaker 1: In other cases, it may be that they were replacing

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Speaker 1: a trip that they would have otherwise taken, either by

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Speaker 1: foot or on bicycle. Well, here's the downside to that

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Speaker 1: is that, yes, E scooters have a lower curbon footprint

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Speaker 1: than a car, but they have a higher carbon footprint

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Speaker 1: than walking or bike riding. And this is where we

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Speaker 1: have to remember that environmental issues are very complicated. You

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Speaker 1: have to look at the big picture. You can't just

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Speaker 1: look at an individual action and then judge everything on that.

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Speaker 1: So in the case of EA scooters, you might say, well,

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Speaker 1: where's the carbon footprint? These are electronic scooters, They're using electricity,

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Speaker 1: they're not burning fossil fuels, so there's no exhaust that

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Speaker 1: you're giving out or anything like that. But you have

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Speaker 1: to look at the full picture of what it takes

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Speaker 1: for the East scooters to work, and that includes manufacturing, maintenance, repair,

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Speaker 1: and just the the operation of the business itself. So

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Speaker 1: let me explain that. With manufacturing, you're talking about, you know,

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Speaker 1: manufacturing the aluminum frames, you're talking about the lithium ion batteries,

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Speaker 1: which have their own environmental impact, and then you have

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Speaker 1: the shipping from overseas because almost all of these are

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Speaker 1: made in China, so there's that part that's also in

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Speaker 1: the overall carbon footprint for the scooters. Those ion batteries

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Speaker 1: apparently aren't the best. They have to be replaced every

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Speaker 1: three d to one thousand charges, sometimes less than that,

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Speaker 1: so a replacement typically is required every one to three months.

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Speaker 1: So we're going through these lithium ion batteries pretty quickly.

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Speaker 1: So you think about that every three months or so,

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Speaker 1: you're replacing the lithium ion batteries on your fleet of

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Speaker 1: of scooters. And if you have thousands of scooters, that's

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Speaker 1: thousands of these lithium ion batteries you have to ditch. Now,

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Speaker 1: ideally you would have to find some way to recycle

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Speaker 1: those because lithium ion batteries contains stuff in them that

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Speaker 1: you don't want to get out into the environment. In general,

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Speaker 1: you want to be responsible with how you dispose of those,

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Speaker 1: but electronic recycling is pretty limited. I've done episodes about

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Speaker 1: E recycling and how E waste is a huge problem.

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Speaker 1: It's very tricky. There are organizations out there that are

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Speaker 1: all about E recycling. Some of them are less than

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Speaker 1: um reliable or ethical. Uh. There have been reports of

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Speaker 1: recycling centers that end up just shipping everying overseas to

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Speaker 1: a different country where they'll handle it much more cheaply

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Speaker 1: than you would see here in America or in other

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Speaker 1: parts of of the world, and that ends up creating

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Speaker 1: its own problems. Really, you're just shipping this potentially hazardous

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Speaker 1: stuff to a different place and making those people deal

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Speaker 1: with it. So that's not great. On top of that,

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Speaker 1: the general operation of these eat scooters, especially that you know,

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Speaker 1: we're really talking about the dackless east scooters, the kinds

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Speaker 1: where you can pick up and ride and then drop

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Speaker 1: off wherever you want within the operating area of the service. UM.

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Speaker 1: A big problem with that is that at the beginning

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Speaker 1: of the day and at the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: you have crews going around. At the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: they're picking up scooters from all over the place and

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Speaker 1: bringing them back so they can be recharged. At the

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Speaker 1: beginning of the day, they're dropping them off in different locations,

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Speaker 1: um usually by the the high traffic of use. So

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Speaker 1: you'll see a lot more being delivered at places like

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Speaker 1: the belt line, for example, than in a corner on

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Speaker 1: my street where I live. There's we never see them there,

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Speaker 1: but they're always at the belt line. Um well, those

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Speaker 1: cars that are being operated, it's typically being operated by

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Speaker 1: private contractors who are working from their own personal vehicles,

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Speaker 1: and most of those are fueled by fossil fuels. So

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Speaker 1: you're still using cars with these scooters to deliver and

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Speaker 1: pick up all those scooters. And yeah, that's not the

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Speaker 1: direct operation of the scooter itself, but is in the

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Speaker 1: operation of the scooter business. So you still have to

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Speaker 1: count it with the carbon footprint for the business itself.

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Speaker 1: And you have to also factor into the idea that

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Speaker 1: those are car rides that wouldn't exist without those scooters, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, the whole reason why the people are going

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Speaker 1: out there to pick them up or drop them off.

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Speaker 1: Is because the scooters. Without the scooters, there's no reason

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Speaker 1: for those trips, so those are added trips with a

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Speaker 1: fossil fuel burning vehicle that wouldn't have existed otherwise. The

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Speaker 1: bottom line is, at least according to some estimations, a

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Speaker 1: scooter ride creates about half the carbon footprint of a

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Speaker 1: car ride when you take in all the factors together,

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Speaker 1: and that to me is shocking. I I am very

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Speaker 1: curious to find out more about the methodology of determining

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Speaker 1: that figure. It is hard for me to believe that

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Speaker 1: it's that much. But with the requirement of replacing that

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Speaker 1: lithium ion battery every three months, maybe you know, when

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Speaker 1: you measure the length of the average lifespan of a scooter,

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Speaker 1: maybe that's how it all shakes out. Anyway, that's a

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Speaker 1: real drawback. That's a real challenge for these scooters is

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Speaker 1: that they're being marketed as eco friendly, but when you

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Speaker 1: take a closer look, you realize it's not that eco friendly,

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Speaker 1: at least not more so than walking or biking would be.

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Speaker 1: Assuming you're not riding a electric bike that would have

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Speaker 1: some of the same issues as an electric scooter. So

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Speaker 1: that's another issue. Beyond that, you've got all the things

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Speaker 1: that are irritating people, like the fact that you'll see

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Speaker 1: people using these dockless e scooters and then they'll just

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Speaker 1: drop them off wherever, either or not even parking them,

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Speaker 1: because I see them just laying down everywhere where no

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Speaker 1: one bothered to, you know, use little kickstand to keep

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Speaker 1: them standing up, or uh. Worse than that, they'll be

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Speaker 1: blocking sidewalks. So let me tell you another story, one

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Speaker 1: that is from personal experience. I was walking home not

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Speaker 1: very long ago when I saw about half a block

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Speaker 1: ahead of me there was a scooter that had been

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Speaker 1: left and it was essentially blocking about half the sidewalk. Now,

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Speaker 1: for me, that's not a big deal. Right when I

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Speaker 1: walk up there, I could just walk around it. But

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Speaker 1: between me and this scooter, also heading in the same

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Speaker 1: direction I was going, was a woman on who was

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Speaker 1: using an electric wheelchair. And so here's a woman who

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Speaker 1: is in a wheelchair that takes up a good amount

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Speaker 1: of the sidewalk and she's zoomed ahead of me. She

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Speaker 1: actually managed to maneuver around the scooter before I could

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Speaker 1: get to it. My plan was to run up there

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Speaker 1: and move it out all the way for her, but

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Speaker 1: she actually ended up going a little bit off the sidewalk,

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Speaker 1: off to the edge and around. Now that doesn't sound

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Speaker 1: like a big big deal either, but it had been

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Speaker 1: raining in Atlanta not long before that, and her wheel

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Speaker 1: was spinning for a little bit while she was trying

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Speaker 1: to get around this thing, so she had a possibility

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Speaker 1: of getting stuck out there. Um, and you start looking

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Speaker 1: at things like this and like this is just one

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Speaker 1: example in one day of how the scooter, which presented

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Speaker 1: a minor inconvenience to me, could be a real issue

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Speaker 1: for somebody else. This is something that a lot of

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Speaker 1: cities are trying to deal with right now. There's generally

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Speaker 1: rules and just about every city that has allowed these

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Speaker 1: businesses to operate about where you can and cannot leave

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Speaker 1: these scooters. Not that I think most people are paying

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Speaker 1: too much attention to it, because I never really see

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Speaker 1: a lot of adherence to those rules. That makes me

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Speaker 1: wonder if those rules are actually being communicated out to

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Speaker 1: the people who are using these scooters. I would like

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Speaker 1: to think that most people would say, oh, you know what,

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Speaker 1: that was fun, we had a good time. Let's just

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Speaker 1: make sure these are tucked off to the side and

396
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Speaker 1: we stand them up properly, rather than that was fun.

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Speaker 1: This isn't mine. I don't care what happens to it.

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Speaker 1: Let's just let it hit the ground and lay wherever

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Speaker 1: it is, and then we'll just keep on going on

400
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Speaker 1: our married a little way. Um, maybe that's me being

401
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 1: too hopeful, but it's something that we definitely need to

402
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Speaker 1: address because the more of these inconvenient and inconsiderate incidents

403
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Speaker 1: that happened within the community, the more likely you're going

404
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Speaker 1: to have people opposing them from being there in the

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Speaker 1: first place, and the more likely you're going to see

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Speaker 1: actions on a civic level against these companies, thus making

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Speaker 1: it even harder to have a working business model. And

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Speaker 1: that means eventually you'll see these dockless East Scooters go

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Speaker 1: away if those things actually happen, And I think that

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Speaker 1: would also be a shame, because I think they can

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Speaker 1: provide a valuable service. It's just that in the implementation

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Speaker 1: as it stands, that's not what's happening. Well, I have

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Speaker 1: a few more final thoughts on this sort of rambly

414
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Speaker 1: update episode to East Scooters, but before I jump on

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Speaker 1: all that, let's take another quick break. Okay, I know

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Speaker 1: this is a bit rambley. It's largely because this is

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Speaker 1: more of an extemporaneous episode than when I typically do.

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Speaker 1: But um, I wanted to talk also about something that

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Speaker 1: Tarry and I were talking about off Mike. Actually was

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Speaker 1: on Mike, but she probably edited all that part out

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Speaker 1: because you would only hear me anyway then you just

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Speaker 1: hear me get increasingly frustrated at my producer. No, we

423
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Speaker 1: were having discussions about the feasibility of these East scooters

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Speaker 1: on roads as opposed to sidewalks, and that's largely because Atlanta,

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Speaker 1: I mean, Atlanta is one of those cities where you

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Speaker 1: really kind of need a car to get around effectively,

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Speaker 1: and only a small percentage of the roads in Atlanta

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Speaker 1: have something like a bike lane. And if it does

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Speaker 1: have a bike lane, that's what you're supposed to ride

430
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: these scooters in. If you're on one, you're supposed to

431
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 1: be in those sort of lanes to try and stay

432
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 1: all the way of the main flow of traffic. But

433
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,959
Speaker 1: there are very few of those lanes in Atlanta, and

434
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 1: that raises some additional problems. The East scooter writers are

435
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 1: supposed to follow the sact same rules of the road

436
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 1: as a motorist. So that would mean that you would

437
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 1: have to come to a complete stop at a stop

438
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 1: sign or stop at an intersection where there's a red light.

439
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 1: You are supposed to stay on the road. You're not

440
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 1: supposed to drive through the crosswalk. You're not supposed to

441
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 1: drive on the sidewalks at all. And that's scary. Like

442
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:24,920
Speaker 1: these scooters offer no protection between you and the traffic

443
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 1: that's around you. So those of us who have studied

444
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 1: physics know that four sequels mass times acceleration. Well, the

445
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,639
Speaker 1: acceleration and the mass of a car is much greater

446
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:40,239
Speaker 1: than that of someone on a scooter, and thus we

447
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 1: have this potential for a disaster. Even if the person

448
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 1: writing the scooter is being careful, accidents can happen, and

449
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 1: when they do happen, it's always going to end up

450
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 1: much worse for the person on the scooter than it

451
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 1: is a person in a car. Um this is a

452
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 1: real challenge. You would argue it makes more sense to

453
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 1: ride on the sidewalk to stay out of the flow

454
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,479
Speaker 1: of traffic, but then you also have the issue of

455
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 1: pedestrian safety, and there's also a problem in Atlanta of

456
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 1: sidewalk stability. I would argue certain areas of Atlanta do

457
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 1: not have the best sidewalks. Then again, certain areas of

458
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 1: Atlanta don't have the best roads either. Case in Point

459
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,120
Speaker 1: pontsti Lean Avenue, which are offices off of about half

460
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 1: of it is under steel plates at the moment, just

461
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,159
Speaker 1: waiting for those potholes to get filled. But this raises

462
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,640
Speaker 1: a real issue you start looking at this last mile solution.

463
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 1: But there are other elements to the problem that the

464
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 1: last male solution does not address. Scooters are not acceptable

465
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 1: to ride on all road conditions, and yet the laws

466
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 1: of the city state you can only ride them on

467
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 1: the road. And like I said, there are a lot

468
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 1: of other cities that follow the exact same pathway. There

469
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 1: are also these rules that you have to follow, the

470
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 1: rules of traffic that again, I think a lot of

471
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 1: the scooter operators don't know, not not the companies renting

472
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 1: them out, but the people actually using them. And as

473
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 1: far as I know, there's no education program from any

474
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 1: of these companies to alert people to actually follow those rules.

475
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 1: And it's usually in those terms of service where one

476
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 1: of the thousands of words that's in there, not one

477
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 1: phrase will say make sure you follow all local rules

478
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 1: and regulations for the use of east scooters. Well, if

479
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: you don't know what those are, and if you're not

480
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 1: reading these terms of service because you don't have an

481
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: hour and a half to dedicate to it, that doesn't

482
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 1: do much good. And then we end up seeing these

483
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 1: other kinds of situations pop up. There are cities in Asia,

484
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: for example, in Japan in particular, where you actually have

485
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 1: to have a license to ride one of these scooters,

486
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 1: which means you have to go through the whole process

487
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: of of training and to demonstrate that you are capable

488
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 1: of operating one of these vehicles safely and accountably. And

489
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 1: that to me is interesting. It's it's essentially putting you

490
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 1: through the same sort of process as getting a driver's

491
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 1: license for a car UH, and the scooters are required

492
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 1: to have stuff on them to indicate things like turn

493
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 1: signals and UH and other elements that are standard on

494
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 1: motor vehicles. I don't think we're necessarily going to see

495
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 1: that translate over to the United States or other parts

496
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 1: of the world. I don't think it's a bad idea necessarily,

497
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 1: although it obviously starts to restrict who can use them,

498
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 1: and part of the appeal of these services, is that

499
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 1: anyone with a smartphone and a credit card can essentially

500
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 1: use one of them, uh, despite local laws that restricted

501
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 1: So we're on an impass here. This is one of

502
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: those issues where business and technology has outpaced regulations and law,

503
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 1: and in the meantime, there's a lot of confusion, there's

504
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 1: a lot of frustration, there's a lot of resistance and

505
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 1: various communities around the world when it comes to these

506
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 1: East scooters. My personal opinion is that there does need

507
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 1: to be some form of training that has to happen

508
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 1: before you can actually use one of these vehicles. I

509
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 1: would make that part of the app, but that comes

510
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 1: with its own challenges because you're going to have to

511
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 1: make sure that you have versions of that app that

512
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 1: are specific to particular municipalities. You would have to have

513
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: an app that is applicable for Atlanta versus San Francisco,

514
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 1: versus Portland versus Boston, and that does mean that you

515
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 1: have to have a larger investment on the part of

516
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 1: the companies that are renting these things out. Obviously, the

517
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 1: more you're asking the companies to invest, the more it's

518
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 1: going to take for them to see a return on

519
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 1: that investment. And we already talked about how this is

520
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 1: a business model that is questionable as far as whether

521
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 1: or not it can actually maintain profitability. So there are

522
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 1: a lot of things you have to balance. Ultimately, I want,

523
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 1: I think people's safety is the thing we have to

524
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 1: be concerned about most. After that utility and availability should

525
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 1: fall in there somewhere. But if we aren't concerned about safety,

526
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 1: we're going to keep seeing incidents where accidents are going

527
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 1: to result in people having, you know, tragic outcomes. I

528
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 1: saw one statistic that stated that on average, it was

529
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 1: you would see an accident with every five thousand miles

530
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 1: driven on these scooters collectively. That is and that is

531
00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: a terrible, terrible accident. Right, if you're talking about cars,

532
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 1: accident rates tend to be in the hundreds of millions

533
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 1: of miles driven. You start talking about accidents on that

534
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 1: scale rather than on the thousands of miles. So that

535
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 1: tells us that people aren't being terribly careful or they're

536
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: in situations that just lead to more accidents, So we

537
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 1: need to be more cognizant of that. On top of that,

538
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 1: you know, some of these cities have helmet laws associated

539
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 1: with these scooters. But when you're grabbing a dockless scooter,

540
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 1: chances are there's no helmet there either, which means they're

541
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 1: either having to carry a helmet with you everywhere you go,

542
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 1: or you're just doing without in defiance of local regulations.

543
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 1: And that's a real problem too. So what's the solution here,

544
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 1: I think, again, following Japan's lead a little bit, maybe

545
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 1: not to that crazy. I shouldn't say crazy that extreme

546
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 1: extent where you're requiring a full licensing procedure. Um. Some

547
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 1: thing along those lines, though, I think would be helpful. Otherwise,

548
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 1: I worry that these scooters are going to cause more

549
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,720
Speaker 1: problems than they solve, And since people are not actually

550
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:15,799
Speaker 1: using them frequently to replace card trips, you could argue

551
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: they're not really solving a problem at all at the moment,

552
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 1: at least not a real one. There giving people opportunities

553
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 1: to have fun, which I think, you know, we need,

554
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 1: but I don't know that that's enough to justify having

555
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:37,320
Speaker 1: these scooters everywhere cluttering things up, causing potential safety issues.

556
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 1: I'm very curious what you guys think. Um, yeah, I

557
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 1: realized that again I'm coming across as the grouchy old

558
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,799
Speaker 1: man here who doesn't use scooters. I do recognize their

559
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:52,720
Speaker 1: utility from certain from a certain point of view. UM,

560
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 1: I just haven't been sold on it. But maybe you

561
00:34:55,160 --> 00:35:00,040
Speaker 1: are a passionate evangelist for scooters. Maybe you have of

562
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:04,240
Speaker 1: your own personal experiences that show the real use case

563
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 1: for these scoots scooters and why they should be everywhere.

564
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:10,799
Speaker 1: If so, then I think you should get in touch

565
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:12,959
Speaker 1: with me. Let me know what you think. I would

566
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 1: really like to hear your thoughts on it, and if

567
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 1: you have thoughts on how they can be deployed in

568
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 1: a way that's responsible and safe and is going to

569
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:28,360
Speaker 1: meet the needs both of the users and not cause

570
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 1: huge headaches on a city level. I would love to

571
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 1: hear your thoughts, so you should email me. The email

572
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 1: addresses tech Stuff at how stuff works dot com, or

573
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 1: you can drop me a line by popping on over

574
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,399
Speaker 1: to our website that's tech stuff podcast dot com. You'll

575
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,240
Speaker 1: find an archive of all of our past episodes, including

576
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 1: the e scooter episode that prompted this update and everything else,

577
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 1: as well as our presence on social media, and you

578
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 1: also find a link to our online store, where every

579
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 1: purchase you make goes to help the show. We greatly

580
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 1: appreciate it. An upcoming episodes, I'm going to have some

581
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 1: friends of the show on to talk about some interesting stuff,

582
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:08,840
Speaker 1: which is, by the way, why this episode is so

583
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:12,919
Speaker 1: rambily in the first place. Uh, full disclosure, peek behind

584
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 1: the curtain. I'd been working on an episode, was really

585
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 1: excited about it. Realized I knew the perfect person to

586
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 1: have on the show after I had already done quite

587
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,440
Speaker 1: a bit of work on it. Reached out and they

588
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 1: agreed to be on the show. So that's gonna be awesome.

589
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 1: But it also meant that I spent a whole lot

590
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,759
Speaker 1: of time working on something that I couldn't actually record today.

591
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 1: So that's why we get the update to East scooters,

592
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 1: and also the recent stories in Atlanta of the accidents

593
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 1: kind of prompted it. I also had a weirdly enough

594
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 1: a ride with a lift driver who told me that

595
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 1: because I have a voice in media, I should speak

596
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 1: out about this more of vehemently, and uh, I'd be

597
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 1: lying if I said that wasn't weighing on me a

598
00:36:55,320 --> 00:37:00,080
Speaker 1: little bit. It did. Um. Although I still think that

599
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 1: the scooters definitely have a place, we just have to

600
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 1: figure out the right place for it and I'm not

601
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 1: convinced we've done that yet. Anyway, keep an ear out

602
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:10,839
Speaker 1: for those episodes. They'll be coming out over the next

603
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 1: couple of weeks. One of them will feature Car Stuff's

604
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 1: Scott Benjamin, who's going to come on and talk about

605
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 1: Formula one race cars in the near future. So if

606
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 1: you've got any curiosity about that, it will be satisfied

607
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 1: in the short future, like within a couple of weeks.

608
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:33,319
Speaker 1: And that's it for me for today, So enjoy. If

609
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 1: you're gonna be writing on a scooter, be safe and

610
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:43,279
Speaker 1: I'll talk to you again. Releasing text Stuff is a

611
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more

612
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 1: podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app,

613
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,800
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.