1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:20,956 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, Happiness Lab listeners. If you're a regular fan 2 00:00:20,996 --> 00:00:23,636 Speaker 1: of this podcast, then you're probably used to me sitting 3 00:00:23,636 --> 00:00:26,196 Speaker 1: in the interviewer seat. But I recently had a chance 4 00:00:26,236 --> 00:00:28,636 Speaker 1: to switch things up a bit and get interviewed myself. 5 00:00:29,276 --> 00:00:31,236 Speaker 1: In fact, I had a chance to sit down with 6 00:00:31,316 --> 00:00:34,836 Speaker 1: none other than the legendary Katie krek for her podcast 7 00:00:34,996 --> 00:00:38,276 Speaker 1: Next Question. I'll be honest, it was pretty surreal to 8 00:00:38,316 --> 00:00:41,356 Speaker 1: sit across from Katie in the studio. I mean, she's 9 00:00:41,396 --> 00:00:44,236 Speaker 1: interviewed some of the most important and influential people on 10 00:00:44,276 --> 00:00:47,036 Speaker 1: the planet. But I quickly learned that Katie's got a 11 00:00:47,076 --> 00:00:49,756 Speaker 1: lot of her own thoughts about happiness, and she pushed 12 00:00:49,756 --> 00:00:52,596 Speaker 1: me to think more critically about the science behind my work. 13 00:00:53,356 --> 00:00:55,476 Speaker 1: I did worry that I wouldn't be as exciting a 14 00:00:55,516 --> 00:00:58,156 Speaker 1: guest as Joe Biden or Anthony Fauci or some of 15 00:00:58,156 --> 00:01:01,196 Speaker 1: the other amazing people that Katie has interviewed, but she 16 00:01:01,316 --> 00:01:04,636 Speaker 1: still seemed pretty happy with our conversation, and so I 17 00:01:04,676 --> 00:01:06,996 Speaker 1: wanted to share it with you here today. I hope 18 00:01:07,036 --> 00:01:15,276 Speaker 1: you enjoy it. I'm Katie Kuric and this is Next Question. 19 00:01:15,876 --> 00:01:18,076 Speaker 1: You know, having a podcast on happiness teaching a whole 20 00:01:18,116 --> 00:01:21,196 Speaker 1: classed Ivyleague students generation after generation. Yeah, I mean I 21 00:01:21,236 --> 00:01:25,236 Speaker 1: think that we get happiness wrong. Happiness, that feeling of 22 00:01:25,316 --> 00:01:28,876 Speaker 1: joy or contentment that we all seem to crave, can 23 00:01:28,956 --> 00:01:33,676 Speaker 1: also seem totally unattainable in this day and age. In fact, 24 00:01:34,276 --> 00:01:38,316 Speaker 1: maybe we need to replace the word happiness altogether. True 25 00:01:38,316 --> 00:01:43,076 Speaker 1: flourishing is taking on challenges, embracing failure, you know, navigating 26 00:01:43,116 --> 00:01:46,116 Speaker 1: these negative emotions that might be normative. And so I think, 27 00:01:46,196 --> 00:01:48,196 Speaker 1: you know, it would be better to have a different word, 28 00:01:48,236 --> 00:01:51,076 Speaker 1: But in some ways we're stuck with happiness. Doctor Laurie 29 00:01:51,116 --> 00:01:55,316 Speaker 1: Santos is a cognitive scientist who's been studying happiness in 30 00:01:55,356 --> 00:01:58,036 Speaker 1: the lab as well as through the class she teaches 31 00:01:58,076 --> 00:02:01,716 Speaker 1: at Yale. But she's the first to admit even she 32 00:02:02,156 --> 00:02:04,756 Speaker 1: isn't happy all the time. Some of us are kind 33 00:02:04,756 --> 00:02:06,636 Speaker 1: of genetically lucky to have a little bit of a 34 00:02:06,676 --> 00:02:09,636 Speaker 1: predisposition to happiness. I'm probably the opposite. I think I 35 00:02:09,676 --> 00:02:13,476 Speaker 1: was born on a rainy, like, loudry, mixed kind of day. 36 00:02:14,516 --> 00:02:18,116 Speaker 1: So what do we need to understand about happiness? Why 37 00:02:18,316 --> 00:02:21,556 Speaker 1: is it so difficult to come by? And why is 38 00:02:21,636 --> 00:02:28,916 Speaker 1: true happiness such freaking hard work? By the way, if 39 00:02:28,916 --> 00:02:31,356 Speaker 1: you want to get smarter Every morning with a breakdown 40 00:02:31,356 --> 00:02:34,636 Speaker 1: of the news and fascinating takes on health and wellness 41 00:02:34,636 --> 00:02:37,836 Speaker 1: and pop culture. Sign up for our daily newsletter, Wake 42 00:02:37,916 --> 00:02:43,396 Speaker 1: Up Call by going to katiecurreic dot com. Laurie Santos, 43 00:02:43,556 --> 00:02:48,876 Speaker 1: come on down. I'm so excited to be talking to you. Ditto, Ditto. 44 00:02:50,236 --> 00:02:56,396 Speaker 1: Let's start with the basics. What exactly is happiness? We 45 00:02:56,476 --> 00:02:58,956 Speaker 1: did a very long time answering that, Katie, But so 46 00:02:58,956 --> 00:03:01,516 Speaker 1: social scientists tend to think of happiness as being happy 47 00:03:01,636 --> 00:03:03,916 Speaker 1: in your life and being happy with your life. So 48 00:03:04,156 --> 00:03:06,076 Speaker 1: being happy in your life is like you've just got 49 00:03:06,116 --> 00:03:08,876 Speaker 1: lots of positive emotions. There's like joy and smiling and 50 00:03:09,116 --> 00:03:12,236 Speaker 1: after as opposed to kind of negative emotions like sadness, 51 00:03:12,276 --> 00:03:14,876 Speaker 1: anger and saying. It's not saying you have no negative emotions, 52 00:03:14,916 --> 00:03:17,836 Speaker 1: it's just that the ratio is pretty good. That's being 53 00:03:17,876 --> 00:03:20,196 Speaker 1: happy in your life. But being happy with your life 54 00:03:20,316 --> 00:03:22,436 Speaker 1: is how you think about your life. Is the answer 55 00:03:22,436 --> 00:03:25,436 Speaker 1: to your question, like all things considered, how satisfied are 56 00:03:25,476 --> 00:03:27,756 Speaker 1: you with your life? And if you say yes, then 57 00:03:27,956 --> 00:03:30,596 Speaker 1: that's pretty good. And I love this definition because you know, 58 00:03:30,836 --> 00:03:32,436 Speaker 1: we all know that there are times that those two 59 00:03:32,476 --> 00:03:35,676 Speaker 1: things dissociate right that you know you're doing something that's 60 00:03:35,676 --> 00:03:37,916 Speaker 1: making you incredibly satisfied with your life. You know, maybe 61 00:03:37,916 --> 00:03:39,876 Speaker 1: you have a new baby or a new job, but 62 00:03:39,956 --> 00:03:41,556 Speaker 1: it's hard, you know, in your life there's a lot 63 00:03:41,596 --> 00:03:43,716 Speaker 1: of stress and things like that. And I think we've 64 00:03:43,756 --> 00:03:45,756 Speaker 1: all met people, you especially being you know, with the 65 00:03:45,836 --> 00:03:48,796 Speaker 1: rich and famous folks, where in a second or no no, 66 00:03:48,876 --> 00:03:51,636 Speaker 1: in their life, like you know, you're flying first class 67 00:03:51,636 --> 00:03:54,676 Speaker 1: and great food, but with your life there's a real 68 00:03:54,676 --> 00:03:56,916 Speaker 1: sense of emptiness and a lack of meaning. And so 69 00:03:57,356 --> 00:03:59,596 Speaker 1: we have these misconceptions when it comes to the things 70 00:03:59,596 --> 00:04:01,596 Speaker 1: that make us happen. Are we using the wrong words? 71 00:04:01,596 --> 00:04:04,836 Speaker 1: Should it be contentment? Should it be fulfillment? I think 72 00:04:04,916 --> 00:04:06,996 Speaker 1: the Greeks, you know, and the ancients as usual had 73 00:04:06,996 --> 00:04:09,436 Speaker 1: it right. You know, they talked about you diamondy a flourishing, 74 00:04:09,556 --> 00:04:12,156 Speaker 1: and I think would be a better word, because to 75 00:04:12,396 --> 00:04:15,636 Speaker 1: have true flourishing, it's not like you're happy all the time. 76 00:04:15,716 --> 00:04:19,196 Speaker 1: Like true flourishing isn't toxic positivity where you're like smiling 77 00:04:19,236 --> 00:04:21,316 Speaker 1: like some terrible yellow emojing where you're like, oh my gosh, 78 00:04:21,356 --> 00:04:23,076 Speaker 1: I'm happy all the time. And so what I try 79 00:04:23,076 --> 00:04:25,316 Speaker 1: to do is to explain to folks that true happiness 80 00:04:25,676 --> 00:04:28,916 Speaker 1: allows for the normal kinds of spots where you're not 81 00:04:28,916 --> 00:04:31,796 Speaker 1: going to feel great, like that's typical, that's normal, that's 82 00:04:31,796 --> 00:04:34,836 Speaker 1: what you need for a good, ultimately happy life. But 83 00:04:34,916 --> 00:04:40,956 Speaker 1: people probably should think about the word flourishing or fulfillment, contentment. 84 00:04:41,116 --> 00:04:45,236 Speaker 1: It just seems much more stable. Happiness seems like at 85 00:04:45,236 --> 00:04:50,356 Speaker 1: the high end of the emotional scale, right, and that's 86 00:04:50,476 --> 00:04:54,276 Speaker 1: unattainable because nobody's happy all the time. Yeah. My colleague 87 00:04:54,316 --> 00:04:56,556 Speaker 1: Dan Gilbert, professor at Harvard, who comes a lot on 88 00:04:56,596 --> 00:04:59,116 Speaker 1: my podcast. Dan's vond of saying that you know, happily 89 00:04:59,156 --> 00:05:01,636 Speaker 1: ever after only exists if you have like three minutes 90 00:05:01,716 --> 00:05:04,196 Speaker 1: left to live, like, it's just not a destination. And 91 00:05:04,236 --> 00:05:06,316 Speaker 1: I think that's another thing we get wrong. We think 92 00:05:06,636 --> 00:05:08,796 Speaker 1: I'm going to do something and get there. You know, 93 00:05:08,796 --> 00:05:10,796 Speaker 1: I'll get married and I will be happy. Or I'll 94 00:05:10,796 --> 00:05:12,876 Speaker 1: get this new raise and I will be happy. Or 95 00:05:13,036 --> 00:05:15,036 Speaker 1: you know, my college students, I'll get into the perfect 96 00:05:15,196 --> 00:05:17,316 Speaker 1: medical school or get the perfect rates and I will 97 00:05:17,356 --> 00:05:20,236 Speaker 1: be happy. And that's just not how it works. My 98 00:05:20,316 --> 00:05:22,276 Speaker 1: late husband used to say that I was born on 99 00:05:22,316 --> 00:05:25,316 Speaker 1: a sunny day, which I thought was such a nice compliment, 100 00:05:25,476 --> 00:05:29,076 Speaker 1: and it made me wonder if some people are hardwired 101 00:05:29,476 --> 00:05:34,316 Speaker 1: for happiness, Is there a happiness set point that varies 102 00:05:34,436 --> 00:05:39,076 Speaker 1: from person to person, from biology to biology. Yeah, there's 103 00:05:39,116 --> 00:05:42,156 Speaker 1: some evidence that that might be at least partly the case. 104 00:05:42,156 --> 00:05:45,676 Speaker 1: And the evidence comes from these studies on what's called heritability. Right, 105 00:05:45,716 --> 00:05:51,516 Speaker 1: What is it called heritability? It's just not irritability irritability. Heritability, 106 00:05:51,796 --> 00:05:54,076 Speaker 1: which is this like big word of saying, you know, 107 00:05:54,156 --> 00:05:56,796 Speaker 1: how much of the variance that we see in the population. 108 00:05:56,876 --> 00:05:58,876 Speaker 1: You know, some people are happy, not so happy. How 109 00:05:58,956 --> 00:06:01,916 Speaker 1: much of that is due to your biology? How much 110 00:06:01,916 --> 00:06:03,996 Speaker 1: of that is due to kind of how you grow up? Right? 111 00:06:04,196 --> 00:06:07,116 Speaker 1: And the way we test heritability is to look at twins. Right. 112 00:06:07,156 --> 00:06:10,476 Speaker 1: Some twins are identical. That means they're genetically exactly the same, 113 00:06:11,396 --> 00:06:14,076 Speaker 1: the same way, raise the same way. Right. Some are fraternal, 114 00:06:14,156 --> 00:06:17,276 Speaker 1: which means they're genetically different, Like they're just as similar 115 00:06:17,316 --> 00:06:20,916 Speaker 1: as regular brothers and sisters. And so if happiness is 116 00:06:20,916 --> 00:06:23,956 Speaker 1: really built in, then identical twins should be much more 117 00:06:23,956 --> 00:06:27,156 Speaker 1: similar in their happiness level than regular brothers and sisters. 118 00:06:27,636 --> 00:06:29,156 Speaker 1: Tons of studies have looked at this, and what you 119 00:06:29,156 --> 00:06:32,676 Speaker 1: find is that's true, but a little bit. Heritability estimates 120 00:06:32,676 --> 00:06:35,356 Speaker 1: are at about thirty percent, and that's like, you know, 121 00:06:35,396 --> 00:06:38,516 Speaker 1: it's there, but scientifically speaking, it's kind of small. What 122 00:06:38,556 --> 00:06:41,116 Speaker 1: does that mean. It means there's something to be said for, 123 00:06:41,316 --> 00:06:43,156 Speaker 1: you know, being born on a sunny day. Some of 124 00:06:43,196 --> 00:06:45,276 Speaker 1: us are kind of genetically lucky to have a little 125 00:06:45,276 --> 00:06:48,716 Speaker 1: bit of a predisposition to happiness, but it's not as 126 00:06:48,796 --> 00:06:51,556 Speaker 1: much as we, I think assume. So it sounds like 127 00:06:51,716 --> 00:06:55,556 Speaker 1: nurture is more important than nature when it comes to happiness. 128 00:06:55,636 --> 00:06:57,316 Speaker 1: That's exactly right, and I think it's important not to 129 00:06:57,316 --> 00:06:59,196 Speaker 1: discount nature. Right. There are some people who have a 130 00:06:59,476 --> 00:07:01,756 Speaker 1: harder nurture than others because they've got to put more 131 00:07:01,796 --> 00:07:04,196 Speaker 1: work in, but everybody can put the right work in 132 00:07:04,236 --> 00:07:06,396 Speaker 1: to change things. Well, I wanted to ask you what 133 00:07:06,756 --> 00:07:10,316 Speaker 1: sets you up for happiness? I mean, is it a 134 00:07:10,436 --> 00:07:18,716 Speaker 1: secure home, life, loving parents, financial security, positive affirmation, success, 135 00:07:19,236 --> 00:07:25,316 Speaker 1: and however you define it. I feel like I'm really lucky, honestly, Laurie, 136 00:07:25,356 --> 00:07:28,756 Speaker 1: in all those categories. I think of people who have 137 00:07:29,036 --> 00:07:34,156 Speaker 1: parents who didn't give them unconditional love and how that 138 00:07:34,916 --> 00:07:38,836 Speaker 1: really kind of reverberates throughout their lives. Yeah, I mean, 139 00:07:38,996 --> 00:07:42,516 Speaker 1: obviously those things have an impact. Right. You know, trauma, 140 00:07:42,516 --> 00:07:44,236 Speaker 1: which is the kind of thing you're talking about, right 141 00:07:44,276 --> 00:07:46,796 Speaker 1: where parents you know, your abusive parents or with whole 142 00:07:46,796 --> 00:07:51,116 Speaker 1: subscene or exactly or you know, they could even be affluent, 143 00:07:51,476 --> 00:07:54,916 Speaker 1: you know, successful parents, just very distant or really harsh, right. 144 00:07:54,956 --> 00:07:57,436 Speaker 1: I mean, we all kind of grow up with different 145 00:07:57,556 --> 00:07:59,876 Speaker 1: levels of that, and you can look at levels that 146 00:07:59,916 --> 00:08:02,156 Speaker 1: are pretty extreme, and scientists do that, right. This is 147 00:08:02,196 --> 00:08:03,956 Speaker 1: a lot of the work on trauma and what's often 148 00:08:03,996 --> 00:08:06,956 Speaker 1: called post traumatic stress disorder. Many of us have heard 149 00:08:06,996 --> 00:08:09,036 Speaker 1: about that, right, And it comes from the fact that 150 00:08:09,116 --> 00:08:12,836 Speaker 1: when you experience trauma sometimes that can have a longstanding effect. 151 00:08:13,316 --> 00:08:16,396 Speaker 1: But even though you know post traumatic stress disorder PTSD 152 00:08:16,516 --> 00:08:19,356 Speaker 1: gets a lot of airtime, scientists have also looked at 153 00:08:19,396 --> 00:08:21,516 Speaker 1: what you might consider the opposite, which is called post 154 00:08:21,596 --> 00:08:25,436 Speaker 1: traumatic growth. Right. You go through an awful, terrible incident 155 00:08:25,476 --> 00:08:27,836 Speaker 1: that you never would have wished on yourself or anyone else, 156 00:08:28,516 --> 00:08:30,636 Speaker 1: and some good comes from that. You feel like you 157 00:08:30,716 --> 00:08:33,476 Speaker 1: come out stronger, you feel like you come out more resilient, 158 00:08:33,556 --> 00:08:35,956 Speaker 1: you feel like you come out more socially connected to 159 00:08:35,956 --> 00:08:38,436 Speaker 1: the people you really care about. And this is what's 160 00:08:38,476 --> 00:08:40,996 Speaker 1: called post traumatic growth. And I'm kind of curious. I mean, 161 00:08:40,996 --> 00:08:42,796 Speaker 1: you know, you and I are talking after you've been 162 00:08:42,876 --> 00:08:47,596 Speaker 1: so helpfully public about your breast cancer diagnosis. That could 163 00:08:47,596 --> 00:08:50,116 Speaker 1: be a trauma that leads to PTSD. You know, individuals 164 00:08:50,156 --> 00:08:52,876 Speaker 1: who experience cancer diagnosis and have to go through the process, 165 00:08:52,956 --> 00:08:55,716 Speaker 1: you know, terrible and awfully traumatic. But you kind of 166 00:08:55,716 --> 00:08:58,196 Speaker 1: resonate with that, this idea of the post traumatic growth 167 00:08:58,196 --> 00:09:01,036 Speaker 1: a bit. I mean, I think because I've had so 168 00:09:01,156 --> 00:09:07,396 Speaker 1: much experience witnessing cancer much more severely in both my 169 00:09:07,476 --> 00:09:11,956 Speaker 1: late husband and my sister who also passed away, and 170 00:09:12,196 --> 00:09:16,076 Speaker 1: I became so knowledgeable about cancer. I have a very 171 00:09:16,756 --> 00:09:22,916 Speaker 1: really healthy and solid understanding about my particular situation, and 172 00:09:23,036 --> 00:09:28,356 Speaker 1: instead of being traumatized, it actually increased my gratitude because 173 00:09:28,516 --> 00:09:32,676 Speaker 1: I know, unlike them, both my husband and sister were 174 00:09:32,716 --> 00:09:37,796 Speaker 1: diagnosed with stage four cancer. Mine was discovered early, when 175 00:09:37,876 --> 00:09:43,076 Speaker 1: it's not only treatable but curable, and so if anything, 176 00:09:43,756 --> 00:09:50,316 Speaker 1: it wasn't traumatic. It was actually weirdly life affirming. It 177 00:09:50,396 --> 00:09:53,516 Speaker 1: was a death sentence for my husband and my sister 178 00:09:53,636 --> 00:09:56,916 Speaker 1: when they were diagnosed, and the fact that it was 179 00:09:56,996 --> 00:10:01,876 Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, the fact that science has really progressed, 180 00:10:02,116 --> 00:10:06,356 Speaker 1: I felt grateful and so This is what we hear 181 00:10:06,396 --> 00:10:08,956 Speaker 1: a lot, both with kind of diagnoses like yours, but 182 00:10:09,156 --> 00:10:11,636 Speaker 1: even cases where individuals find out they have a terminal 183 00:10:11,676 --> 00:10:14,196 Speaker 1: situation or things that you couldn't even imagine, you're There 184 00:10:14,196 --> 00:10:18,196 Speaker 1: are accounts of parents who've lost young children who obviously, 185 00:10:18,396 --> 00:10:20,636 Speaker 1: you know, the most traumatic thing any parent could imagine. 186 00:10:21,036 --> 00:10:22,796 Speaker 1: You know, Obviously they're not happy about it, they wouldn't 187 00:10:22,836 --> 00:10:25,956 Speaker 1: wish it again, but they'll say on mass more good 188 00:10:25,996 --> 00:10:28,996 Speaker 1: things came of it than I expected, right, And that 189 00:10:29,156 --> 00:10:32,796 Speaker 1: is a profound thing about human psychology and human nature. 190 00:10:32,796 --> 00:10:35,196 Speaker 1: The worst thing possible that we could ever imagine happens, 191 00:10:35,196 --> 00:10:37,756 Speaker 1: and we say, there are parts of this at least 192 00:10:37,796 --> 00:10:39,876 Speaker 1: that I'm grateful for, or there's parts of this that 193 00:10:39,916 --> 00:10:42,356 Speaker 1: I wouldn't change. I've grown from this. This is one 194 00:10:42,396 --> 00:10:44,796 Speaker 1: of the biggest mistakes that we make about happiness. We 195 00:10:44,836 --> 00:10:47,996 Speaker 1: think it's only our circumstances. If things go well, I'll 196 00:10:48,036 --> 00:10:51,476 Speaker 1: be great, and God forbid things go badly. But in practice, 197 00:10:51,516 --> 00:10:55,156 Speaker 1: when these things actually happen to people were much more resilient, 198 00:10:55,316 --> 00:10:58,036 Speaker 1: and we often take much more meaning and purpose from 199 00:10:58,076 --> 00:11:00,756 Speaker 1: those events than we often expect. And I think my 200 00:11:00,956 --> 00:11:05,956 Speaker 1: resilience you mentioned going public just as I try to 201 00:11:06,076 --> 00:11:10,236 Speaker 1: spread awareness and educate people about calling or prevention and 202 00:11:10,396 --> 00:11:14,796 Speaker 1: encourage them to get colonoscopies, and got one on television myself. 203 00:11:15,756 --> 00:11:19,436 Speaker 1: I knew that by being a public figure and talking 204 00:11:19,476 --> 00:11:22,236 Speaker 1: about it, I had the potential to actually save lives. 205 00:11:22,356 --> 00:11:27,276 Speaker 1: And so for me translating it into I don't mean 206 00:11:27,276 --> 00:11:31,436 Speaker 1: to sound cheesy, but some form of service, it actually 207 00:11:31,756 --> 00:11:36,996 Speaker 1: is very grounding and satisfying and fulfilling for me. And 208 00:11:37,636 --> 00:11:40,636 Speaker 1: that's what I think sometimes we get wrong about happiness. 209 00:11:41,876 --> 00:11:45,676 Speaker 1: I think resilious it's finding strength within. So sometimes we 210 00:11:46,676 --> 00:11:51,476 Speaker 1: are in a situation that we're unprepared for and you 211 00:11:51,516 --> 00:11:54,436 Speaker 1: find yourself digging deeper into something that you didn't even 212 00:11:54,476 --> 00:12:05,836 Speaker 1: know you possessed more after the break. I'm an artist 213 00:12:05,836 --> 00:12:08,756 Speaker 1: in New York City, so when I'm creating or discovering, 214 00:12:09,356 --> 00:12:11,636 Speaker 1: that's where i find my happiness usually most of the time. 215 00:12:12,236 --> 00:12:14,876 Speaker 1: So happiness, you can try and find it, you can 216 00:12:14,876 --> 00:12:17,236 Speaker 1: try to inspire it. I also think you got to 217 00:12:17,236 --> 00:12:20,276 Speaker 1: give energy to get energy, so do that you can 218 00:12:20,316 --> 00:12:24,196 Speaker 1: find a lot of happiness. We're back with Lorie Santos. 219 00:12:27,476 --> 00:12:31,036 Speaker 1: All this focus on quote unquote self care, which I 220 00:12:31,076 --> 00:12:34,076 Speaker 1: think to a certain extent we need to focus and 221 00:12:34,196 --> 00:12:36,676 Speaker 1: take care of ourselves and the oxygen mask and all 222 00:12:36,676 --> 00:12:39,356 Speaker 1: that jazz. On the other hand, it seems like we 223 00:12:39,436 --> 00:12:43,076 Speaker 1: have become so self focused that we're missing the point 224 00:12:43,596 --> 00:12:49,196 Speaker 1: about serving others, being kind to others. Those things are 225 00:12:49,316 --> 00:12:52,636 Speaker 1: proven to increase your happiness, right, Lorie. Yeah, I mean 226 00:12:52,796 --> 00:12:55,916 Speaker 1: one of the biggest cross cultural universals in happiness science 227 00:12:55,996 --> 00:12:58,196 Speaker 1: right now is that doing nice things for other people 228 00:12:58,716 --> 00:13:01,956 Speaker 1: makes you happier. If you look at people who are 229 00:13:01,956 --> 00:13:04,356 Speaker 1: controlled for the level of income they have, people who 230 00:13:04,436 --> 00:13:07,636 Speaker 1: donate more of their money to charity are happier. People 231 00:13:07,636 --> 00:13:10,076 Speaker 1: who just tend to just be more self focused are 232 00:13:10,156 --> 00:13:12,036 Speaker 1: less happy than the people who are out there doing 233 00:13:12,076 --> 00:13:14,596 Speaker 1: stuff for other people. And even if you force people 234 00:13:14,676 --> 00:13:17,156 Speaker 1: to do nice stuff for others, they wind up feeling happier. 235 00:13:17,276 --> 00:13:20,516 Speaker 1: And do you think this whole emphasis on self care 236 00:13:20,636 --> 00:13:25,436 Speaker 1: and wellness has had the adverse effect in some ways? 237 00:13:25,476 --> 00:13:28,516 Speaker 1: Have you looked at that? Yeah, definitely. It's a relatively 238 00:13:28,596 --> 00:13:31,276 Speaker 1: new phenomenon, isn't it. I mean I feel like sort 239 00:13:31,316 --> 00:13:35,876 Speaker 1: of the self care wellness industry has really blossomed and 240 00:13:36,076 --> 00:13:38,836 Speaker 1: just the last five years. Yeah, I think it's problematic 241 00:13:38,876 --> 00:13:41,476 Speaker 1: in two ways. Again, One is this focus on the self, right, 242 00:13:41,516 --> 00:13:43,636 Speaker 1: you know, me, me, me, when again all the data 243 00:13:43,716 --> 00:13:46,276 Speaker 1: suggest that doing for others would be better. I think 244 00:13:46,276 --> 00:13:48,596 Speaker 1: another problem is it like reflects this notion that we 245 00:13:48,676 --> 00:13:51,916 Speaker 1: have that like our circumstances matter for happiness. Right, if 246 00:13:51,916 --> 00:13:53,676 Speaker 1: I could just like have it be you know, bubble 247 00:13:53,716 --> 00:13:56,276 Speaker 1: bats and rainbows and first class flights, then my life 248 00:13:56,276 --> 00:13:58,596 Speaker 1: would be great. And it's really missing out on the 249 00:13:58,636 --> 00:14:01,716 Speaker 1: things that can actually matter for our happiness. Were in 250 00:14:01,756 --> 00:14:03,996 Speaker 1: some ways even just a simple act of spending our money, 251 00:14:04,196 --> 00:14:06,596 Speaker 1: We're doing it wrong. Spending on things that we think 252 00:14:06,636 --> 00:14:08,276 Speaker 1: are going to make us feel good, I think aren't 253 00:14:08,276 --> 00:14:10,116 Speaker 1: going to bring us joy, and they might not bring 254 00:14:10,236 --> 00:14:12,476 Speaker 1: us the joy we think. We're in New York City, 255 00:14:12,516 --> 00:14:18,076 Speaker 1: the epicenter of type A strivers, right, and I think 256 00:14:18,276 --> 00:14:22,596 Speaker 1: there's one thing that has hurt my happiness quotient, if 257 00:14:22,636 --> 00:14:28,276 Speaker 1: you will, is always striving, because once you get something, 258 00:14:28,476 --> 00:14:30,596 Speaker 1: it's like, Okay, what am I going to do next? 259 00:14:30,956 --> 00:14:32,476 Speaker 1: Where am I going to go? How am I going 260 00:14:32,556 --> 00:14:37,396 Speaker 1: to achieve something? More? Talk about how these type A 261 00:14:37,916 --> 00:14:42,716 Speaker 1: kind of super driven people, because I'm transitioning to your 262 00:14:42,756 --> 00:14:46,276 Speaker 1: your Yale class where you at them in droves, how 263 00:14:46,316 --> 00:14:49,916 Speaker 1: that impacts your happiness. I mean, it's sometimes funny to 264 00:14:49,916 --> 00:14:52,156 Speaker 1: people when they hear I teach this class on happiness 265 00:14:52,196 --> 00:14:55,636 Speaker 1: to Yale students, because the lay person's assumption is like 266 00:14:55,756 --> 00:14:58,356 Speaker 1: Yale students haven't made They're nineteen, you know, many of 267 00:14:58,356 --> 00:15:01,516 Speaker 1: them are wealthy or at least well connected. Yet you know, 268 00:15:01,796 --> 00:15:04,476 Speaker 1: one fourth of them decided to take a class on happiness. 269 00:15:04,756 --> 00:15:07,716 Speaker 1: What year did you start teaching it? First? In twenty eighteen, 270 00:15:07,796 --> 00:15:10,196 Speaker 1: and it was It became the largest class ever in 271 00:15:10,276 --> 00:15:13,316 Speaker 1: Yale's history, and one quarter of the students enrolled, right, 272 00:15:13,756 --> 00:15:16,156 Speaker 1: And I cannot tells you that these you know, type 273 00:15:16,156 --> 00:15:18,756 Speaker 1: A very driven Yale students are voting with their feet. 274 00:15:18,756 --> 00:15:21,716 Speaker 1: They've especially at Yale, they've gotten everything they've wanted. You know, 275 00:15:21,756 --> 00:15:24,196 Speaker 1: probably since these kids were twelve years old, they dreamed 276 00:15:24,196 --> 00:15:26,076 Speaker 1: of getting into an Ivy League school, and now they're 277 00:15:26,116 --> 00:15:29,076 Speaker 1: there and it's still not doing what they expect, which 278 00:15:29,076 --> 00:15:32,356 Speaker 1: only proves like all these things that we talked about 279 00:15:32,836 --> 00:15:37,676 Speaker 1: are not necessarily the key. What's missing for them? Yeah, 280 00:15:37,756 --> 00:15:39,756 Speaker 1: I mean it's often the things that they are having 281 00:15:39,796 --> 00:15:43,316 Speaker 1: an opportunity cost on because they're so driven at their academics. 282 00:15:43,316 --> 00:15:45,596 Speaker 1: It's simple things like sleep and taking care of their 283 00:15:45,596 --> 00:15:48,596 Speaker 1: physical health. It's often social connection, right. These are students 284 00:15:48,636 --> 00:15:50,476 Speaker 1: who are working on homework into the night. They're not 285 00:15:50,516 --> 00:15:53,996 Speaker 1: getting the same social connection that you expect. And honestly, 286 00:15:54,036 --> 00:15:57,236 Speaker 1: it's just having this kind of mistaken idea that more 287 00:15:57,236 --> 00:15:59,636 Speaker 1: and more and more is going to be good. Right. 288 00:15:59,676 --> 00:16:02,236 Speaker 1: It's not stopic to kind of you smell the roses 289 00:16:02,276 --> 00:16:05,036 Speaker 1: and reflect on the accomplishments you've gotten, because they're thinking 290 00:16:05,076 --> 00:16:06,556 Speaker 1: about what grades are going to make, and how are 291 00:16:06,556 --> 00:16:08,196 Speaker 1: they going to get into a good law school, and 292 00:16:08,236 --> 00:16:10,516 Speaker 1: how are they going to get that job at Goldman 293 00:16:10,596 --> 00:16:14,196 Speaker 1: Sachs or you know, all those things that I would 294 00:16:14,236 --> 00:16:19,396 Speaker 1: imagine detract from just being present and enjoying the moment exactly. 295 00:16:19,436 --> 00:16:22,876 Speaker 1: There's work on what's known as journey mindset, right, which 296 00:16:22,916 --> 00:16:24,756 Speaker 1: is this idea that you're not kind of going for 297 00:16:24,796 --> 00:16:27,076 Speaker 1: the next thing, you're not looking at what you're arriving towards. 298 00:16:27,076 --> 00:16:28,956 Speaker 1: The goal is not then it's not law school or 299 00:16:28,956 --> 00:16:31,596 Speaker 1: Goldman Sacks, we're even getting into Yale. It's kind of 300 00:16:31,596 --> 00:16:33,236 Speaker 1: what you're going to learn and get along the way. 301 00:16:33,236 --> 00:16:35,676 Speaker 1: It's really being present across that and I think that 302 00:16:35,716 --> 00:16:37,876 Speaker 1: we've raised, honestly, not just my Yale students, but a 303 00:16:37,916 --> 00:16:41,236 Speaker 1: generation of young people that have dropped the journey mindset right. 304 00:16:41,236 --> 00:16:43,716 Speaker 1: They are careerist from as early as we can detect, 305 00:16:43,996 --> 00:16:45,996 Speaker 1: and that means that they're just going to jump to 306 00:16:46,036 --> 00:16:52,196 Speaker 1: the next accolade. How can we tamp down this tremendous 307 00:16:52,236 --> 00:16:56,876 Speaker 1: pressure that's really detracting from being a happy, whole person. 308 00:16:57,396 --> 00:16:59,916 Speaker 1: You imagine if Yale and Harvard and Stanford and all 309 00:16:59,916 --> 00:17:02,636 Speaker 1: the big schools got together, like a nuclear d escalation, 310 00:17:02,996 --> 00:17:05,396 Speaker 1: and we all said, you know what, here the minimum 311 00:17:05,436 --> 00:17:07,636 Speaker 1: standards you need to be a good Yale student. Once 312 00:17:07,676 --> 00:17:10,116 Speaker 1: you meet this minimum standards, go into a lottery and 313 00:17:10,196 --> 00:17:12,196 Speaker 1: you'll might get in or you might not. I think 314 00:17:12,196 --> 00:17:14,236 Speaker 1: this would be first of all, I think you'd be accurate, 315 00:17:14,396 --> 00:17:16,876 Speaker 1: But I think it would also allow students to see that, like, 316 00:17:17,196 --> 00:17:19,276 Speaker 1: you know, you don't have to keep hustling, and I 317 00:17:19,316 --> 00:17:22,156 Speaker 1: think the hustle starts earlier and earlier. I think you 318 00:17:22,196 --> 00:17:24,476 Speaker 1: know what you said is correct. I think parents really 319 00:17:24,476 --> 00:17:26,956 Speaker 1: have a role to kind of scale this back. And 320 00:17:26,996 --> 00:17:28,916 Speaker 1: I think, you know, it can sometimes be really tough 321 00:17:28,956 --> 00:17:31,476 Speaker 1: for parents because they obviously want what's best for their kids. 322 00:17:31,716 --> 00:17:33,316 Speaker 1: You know, if there's a kind of accolade out there 323 00:17:33,316 --> 00:17:35,316 Speaker 1: that your child doesn't have it so easy to kind 324 00:17:35,316 --> 00:17:37,516 Speaker 1: of want them to strive for it. I think working 325 00:17:37,556 --> 00:17:39,676 Speaker 1: with your kids to kind of back them up, talk 326 00:17:39,676 --> 00:17:41,876 Speaker 1: to them about what they're learning along the journey, make 327 00:17:41,916 --> 00:17:43,916 Speaker 1: it clear that you're going to love them no matter what, 328 00:17:44,236 --> 00:17:47,076 Speaker 1: and don't push them just because you want that Yale 329 00:17:47,116 --> 00:17:49,236 Speaker 1: sticker on the back of your car. You can buy 330 00:17:49,236 --> 00:17:51,676 Speaker 1: one even if your kid doesn't go to Yale. Dirty 331 00:17:51,756 --> 00:17:55,156 Speaker 1: So I'm curious what you heard from your students. You 332 00:17:55,236 --> 00:17:57,396 Speaker 1: talk to so many of these kids. I mean, you 333 00:17:57,516 --> 00:18:02,596 Speaker 1: had a whole case study every semester. What did they 334 00:18:02,636 --> 00:18:06,076 Speaker 1: talk about and why were they taking your class? There's 335 00:18:06,116 --> 00:18:08,756 Speaker 1: lots of evidence that this generation, and this is true 336 00:18:08,756 --> 00:18:10,996 Speaker 1: at Yale too, is just facing the biggest mental health 337 00:18:11,076 --> 00:18:13,356 Speaker 1: crisis that we've seen in the history of the human species. 338 00:18:13,396 --> 00:18:15,996 Speaker 1: Like right now, there's race of depression nationally at colleges 339 00:18:15,996 --> 00:18:18,556 Speaker 1: are at levels like forty percent of students report being 340 00:18:18,556 --> 00:18:21,156 Speaker 1: too depressed to function most days. Over sixty percent say 341 00:18:21,156 --> 00:18:24,316 Speaker 1: they're overwhelmingly anxious. More than one in ten has seriously 342 00:18:24,356 --> 00:18:26,796 Speaker 1: considered suicide. So if you're looking at a group of 343 00:18:26,796 --> 00:18:29,476 Speaker 1: ten college students, one of them might be contemplating taking 344 00:18:29,516 --> 00:18:31,796 Speaker 1: their own life, right, Like, that's really how bad the 345 00:18:31,836 --> 00:18:35,116 Speaker 1: mental health situation has gotten on campus. But that doesn't 346 00:18:35,156 --> 00:18:37,196 Speaker 1: even tell you what you're just seeing in the low 347 00:18:37,276 --> 00:18:40,396 Speaker 1: grade kind of stress and disappointment these students are facing. 348 00:18:40,596 --> 00:18:42,156 Speaker 1: You know, I'll run into a student in the courtyard 349 00:18:42,196 --> 00:18:43,916 Speaker 1: and be like, hey, how's it going, And they'd be like, oh, 350 00:18:44,036 --> 00:18:45,836 Speaker 1: if I could only get to mid terms or if 351 00:18:45,836 --> 00:18:47,636 Speaker 1: I can only fast forward to the summer to get 352 00:18:47,676 --> 00:18:49,396 Speaker 1: out of this. And I would have kind of two 353 00:18:49,436 --> 00:18:52,596 Speaker 1: reactions to that of like, what college is so precious 354 00:18:52,596 --> 00:18:54,996 Speaker 1: since so short, Like how can you be fast forwarding this? 355 00:18:55,356 --> 00:18:57,316 Speaker 1: But then my other reactions like, oh, yeah, we could 356 00:18:57,316 --> 00:18:58,916 Speaker 1: only get to mid terms, you know. So I was 357 00:18:58,956 --> 00:19:01,956 Speaker 1: like realizing, like, wow, you know, these are misconceptions that 358 00:19:02,036 --> 00:19:04,036 Speaker 1: I was having too. You know, even though it was 359 00:19:04,076 --> 00:19:06,556 Speaker 1: so acute in my students that kind of overwhelm and 360 00:19:06,556 --> 00:19:08,876 Speaker 1: stress they were facing, I kind of saw it in 361 00:19:08,876 --> 00:19:11,196 Speaker 1: my self too. You know. I'm worried that we weren't 362 00:19:11,236 --> 00:19:13,276 Speaker 1: being good mentors for them to help them out of this. 363 00:19:13,636 --> 00:19:16,236 Speaker 1: You know. I guess maybe because I'm I'm a big 364 00:19:16,276 --> 00:19:19,516 Speaker 1: fan of self flagellation, but I do wonder if people 365 00:19:19,716 --> 00:19:26,236 Speaker 1: of my generation parents fucked up. Well it's yes, you 366 00:19:26,276 --> 00:19:30,076 Speaker 1: know it did the best secret Yeah, yeah, blah blah. 367 00:19:30,116 --> 00:19:34,516 Speaker 1: And I wonder, I wonder if my generation style of 368 00:19:34,636 --> 00:19:39,996 Speaker 1: parenting has contributed to this, because you know that everybody 369 00:19:40,036 --> 00:19:45,276 Speaker 1: gets a trophy. You have to fix things for your kids. 370 00:19:45,356 --> 00:19:49,516 Speaker 1: You can't have them suffer because it's too painful for you. 371 00:19:49,516 --> 00:19:53,596 Speaker 1: You can't have them be disappointed. And are the chickens 372 00:19:53,676 --> 00:19:57,476 Speaker 1: coming home to roost? I think so, although I think 373 00:19:57,676 --> 00:19:59,956 Speaker 1: there's also lots of evidence that you know, society and 374 00:19:59,996 --> 00:20:01,756 Speaker 1: a lot of these structure has changed, right. You know, 375 00:20:01,996 --> 00:20:04,316 Speaker 1: the last twenty years were also the time when the 376 00:20:04,356 --> 00:20:07,036 Speaker 1: news was talking a lot about stranger changer. You know, 377 00:20:07,076 --> 00:20:08,876 Speaker 1: you wouldn't be seen as a good parent unless you 378 00:20:08,876 --> 00:20:11,876 Speaker 1: were trying to protect your children. Again, I think institutions 379 00:20:11,916 --> 00:20:15,156 Speaker 1: like mine, you know, like focused on meritocracy, and in 380 00:20:15,196 --> 00:20:17,876 Speaker 1: a way that's great. You know, anyone can get into Yale, now, 381 00:20:17,876 --> 00:20:19,916 Speaker 1: anyone can get into you. Oh why aren't you giving 382 00:20:19,916 --> 00:20:22,396 Speaker 1: your child the resources they need to do that? And 383 00:20:22,436 --> 00:20:25,436 Speaker 1: I think that that focus on higher education in these 384 00:20:25,556 --> 00:20:28,876 Speaker 1: next steps made it so that failure seemed scary. But 385 00:20:28,916 --> 00:20:31,036 Speaker 1: I think that that did mean that the kids today 386 00:20:31,036 --> 00:20:33,716 Speaker 1: are growing up with different kinds of norms when it 387 00:20:33,756 --> 00:20:36,156 Speaker 1: comes to failures, different kinds of norms when it comes 388 00:20:36,196 --> 00:20:39,116 Speaker 1: to parental involvement, different kinds of norms when it comes 389 00:20:39,116 --> 00:20:42,036 Speaker 1: to what they're expected to know, just at different ages. 390 00:20:42,516 --> 00:20:45,796 Speaker 1: We have college students who have never used an alarm clock. 391 00:20:45,836 --> 00:20:48,196 Speaker 1: Their parents are their alarm clock. They call, you know, 392 00:20:48,236 --> 00:20:50,036 Speaker 1: to make sure their child gets up in the morning, 393 00:20:50,116 --> 00:20:54,716 Speaker 1: you know, at nineteen twenty one years old. Lily from 394 00:20:54,916 --> 00:20:58,276 Speaker 1: New York. I'm a teacher. I think the pandemic really 395 00:20:58,316 --> 00:21:02,116 Speaker 1: affected kids really negatively, and they're having a really hard 396 00:21:02,156 --> 00:21:05,356 Speaker 1: time figuring out how to socialize in the way that 397 00:21:05,636 --> 00:21:08,636 Speaker 1: we did when we were kids, when life was quote 398 00:21:08,716 --> 00:21:11,996 Speaker 1: unquote normal. So I think the socializing, the lack of 399 00:21:12,156 --> 00:21:16,916 Speaker 1: social skills is we're finding kids like really inverting and 400 00:21:17,876 --> 00:21:21,876 Speaker 1: struggling to reach out to people. We'll be right back. 401 00:21:27,356 --> 00:21:30,596 Speaker 1: There's things within your control and there's things outside. Focus 402 00:21:30,636 --> 00:21:32,596 Speaker 1: on those things that are within your control and you'll 403 00:21:32,636 --> 00:21:39,836 Speaker 1: do better and we're back. You have just started an 404 00:21:39,836 --> 00:21:42,636 Speaker 1: online course that's free to teenagers. It's called The Science 405 00:21:42,676 --> 00:21:46,036 Speaker 1: of Well Being. What prompted you to do that, Laurie, Well, 406 00:21:46,036 --> 00:21:48,636 Speaker 1: it had done this class, you know, live on Yale's campus, 407 00:21:48,756 --> 00:21:50,716 Speaker 1: and we got tons and tons of press for it, 408 00:21:50,796 --> 00:21:52,916 Speaker 1: but a lot of the emails I was getting from 409 00:21:53,036 --> 00:21:55,716 Speaker 1: parents was saying, you could you make this available? Was 410 00:21:55,756 --> 00:21:57,556 Speaker 1: there any way I could see the syllabus? I want 411 00:21:57,556 --> 00:21:59,516 Speaker 1: my daughter who's in middle school, I want my son 412 00:21:59,516 --> 00:22:01,836 Speaker 1: who's in high school to get this content. And it 413 00:22:01,876 --> 00:22:03,996 Speaker 1: made me realize that a lot of the skills I 414 00:22:04,036 --> 00:22:07,076 Speaker 1: was teaching Yale students, we want kids who are younger 415 00:22:07,116 --> 00:22:10,436 Speaker 1: than that to learn these things. So is it different 416 00:22:10,516 --> 00:22:14,036 Speaker 1: teaching teens than it is teaching college students. Yeah, yes 417 00:22:14,036 --> 00:22:16,316 Speaker 1: and no. Yes in the sense that you know, teens 418 00:22:16,516 --> 00:22:19,716 Speaker 1: face different kinds of contexts where these kinds of principles 419 00:22:19,716 --> 00:22:22,596 Speaker 1: and these misconceptions come up. Right, They're not worried about 420 00:22:22,636 --> 00:22:25,876 Speaker 1: salary and you know, getting married. They're worried about, you know, 421 00:22:25,916 --> 00:22:29,196 Speaker 1: getting good grades and thinking about colleges and navigating how 422 00:22:29,236 --> 00:22:32,116 Speaker 1: they're portrayed on social media rights. In some ways, there 423 00:22:32,116 --> 00:22:34,316 Speaker 1: are lots of similar stressors, but they kind of play 424 00:22:34,316 --> 00:22:36,636 Speaker 1: out in different ways, And so the new class really 425 00:22:36,756 --> 00:22:39,836 Speaker 1: uses the same kind of science concepts. Those things are 426 00:22:39,836 --> 00:22:42,396 Speaker 1: the same, but we're kind of talking about them in 427 00:22:42,436 --> 00:22:44,876 Speaker 1: a context that teens can really relate to them. You know, 428 00:22:44,876 --> 00:22:46,956 Speaker 1: so if we're talking about your circumstances don't matter. We're 429 00:22:46,956 --> 00:22:49,636 Speaker 1: not using examples of like getting promotions at work. We're 430 00:22:49,756 --> 00:22:51,436 Speaker 1: using examples of like, you know, the grade that you 431 00:22:51,476 --> 00:22:53,636 Speaker 1: got on your homework lass Thursday. We're sort of talking 432 00:22:53,676 --> 00:22:56,156 Speaker 1: about the kinds of things that are on teens minds. 433 00:22:56,556 --> 00:23:00,556 Speaker 1: Are there some basic skills that you're really trying to 434 00:23:00,596 --> 00:23:05,596 Speaker 1: give both the kids in college and also teenagers. One 435 00:23:05,636 --> 00:23:07,156 Speaker 1: of the great things that I've seen with the Yale 436 00:23:07,156 --> 00:23:09,556 Speaker 1: students in so far, with the teens who've taken the glasses, 437 00:23:09,796 --> 00:23:11,636 Speaker 1: they want an evidence based approach. They don't want to 438 00:23:11,636 --> 00:23:13,396 Speaker 1: hear a bunch of platitudes about what they should do. 439 00:23:13,436 --> 00:23:15,516 Speaker 1: They like, what does the science say? Because that's great. 440 00:23:15,876 --> 00:23:18,476 Speaker 1: But then we just walk through just really simple behavior 441 00:23:18,636 --> 00:23:20,956 Speaker 1: thought pattern changes that you can engage with when a 442 00:23:20,956 --> 00:23:23,396 Speaker 1: stressor comes up. You know, so if you're feeling stressed, 443 00:23:23,396 --> 00:23:25,756 Speaker 1: what are good behaviors? You know, maybe spending more time 444 00:23:25,756 --> 00:23:28,596 Speaker 1: on TikTok not as good the evidence suggests, But if 445 00:23:28,596 --> 00:23:30,316 Speaker 1: you can move your body a little bit more, if 446 00:23:30,356 --> 00:23:32,636 Speaker 1: you can contact a friend, if you take a walk, sleep, 447 00:23:32,676 --> 00:23:35,156 Speaker 1: maybe take a walk or even you know, think about 448 00:23:35,156 --> 00:23:36,796 Speaker 1: what you could do for someone else, you know, getting 449 00:23:36,796 --> 00:23:39,636 Speaker 1: back to this idea of being other oriented, these behaviors 450 00:23:39,636 --> 00:23:41,476 Speaker 1: that you could use in the moment to fix this. 451 00:23:41,916 --> 00:23:44,956 Speaker 1: We also spend a lot of time on changing your 452 00:23:44,996 --> 00:23:47,316 Speaker 1: thought patterns. I think we think we are our thoughts 453 00:23:47,316 --> 00:23:49,356 Speaker 1: like you know, they just pop up and that's reality. 454 00:23:49,636 --> 00:23:51,596 Speaker 1: But there's so much evidence to say, no, that's just 455 00:23:51,636 --> 00:23:53,996 Speaker 1: the voice in our head, and there are simple techniques 456 00:23:53,996 --> 00:23:56,076 Speaker 1: we can use to change our thought patterns. You know. 457 00:23:56,076 --> 00:23:58,556 Speaker 1: A big one for teenagers is trying to sort of 458 00:23:58,596 --> 00:24:00,756 Speaker 1: shut off that self critic in your head. You know that, Yeah, 459 00:24:01,476 --> 00:24:04,756 Speaker 1: for teenagers. I mean I do negative self talk all 460 00:24:04,796 --> 00:24:07,716 Speaker 1: the time. And some of my friends here at Katiekirk 461 00:24:07,756 --> 00:24:10,436 Speaker 1: Media say, you know you are what you say, and 462 00:24:10,516 --> 00:24:14,356 Speaker 1: that actually is scientifically proven, right totally. I mean, there's 463 00:24:14,396 --> 00:24:17,436 Speaker 1: so much evidence that what you're saying to yourself is 464 00:24:17,436 --> 00:24:20,996 Speaker 1: affecting how you perform. For example, if you're really self critical, 465 00:24:21,036 --> 00:24:23,916 Speaker 1: it's very easy to procrastinate because you're screaming yourself. You 466 00:24:23,956 --> 00:24:25,716 Speaker 1: can have set up this fear in your own mind. 467 00:24:26,036 --> 00:24:27,836 Speaker 1: There's also lots of evidence at what you say it 468 00:24:27,876 --> 00:24:31,156 Speaker 1: to yourself can affect your physiology. The best advice is 469 00:24:31,196 --> 00:24:33,356 Speaker 1: to talk to yourself like you would a friend. If 470 00:24:33,396 --> 00:24:35,716 Speaker 1: your best friend was really screwing up, you wouldn't be like, oh, 471 00:24:35,716 --> 00:24:38,796 Speaker 1: it's fine, you know, it's great, You're wonderful, everybody loves you. 472 00:24:38,796 --> 00:24:41,756 Speaker 1: You'd be like, you know, we need to deal with this, 473 00:24:41,956 --> 00:24:44,076 Speaker 1: like what's going on? Like I love you and I 474 00:24:44,116 --> 00:24:45,476 Speaker 1: really care about you, and I want you. Wouldn't be 475 00:24:45,516 --> 00:24:47,716 Speaker 1: like you suck, like why are You wouldn't scream at 476 00:24:47,716 --> 00:24:49,956 Speaker 1: your best friend and be great him or her, but 477 00:24:50,076 --> 00:24:52,356 Speaker 1: you would, you know, call a spade a spade and say, hey, 478 00:24:52,356 --> 00:24:54,676 Speaker 1: we got we gotta deal with this. This isn't going well, 479 00:24:54,916 --> 00:24:56,876 Speaker 1: And you would be curious. You'd be like what's going on? 480 00:24:57,316 --> 00:24:59,116 Speaker 1: Like why are you doing this? Like how can we 481 00:24:59,156 --> 00:25:02,396 Speaker 1: fix this? You'd be you'd be gentle, you'd be proactive, 482 00:25:02,476 --> 00:25:06,316 Speaker 1: you'd be problem solving oriented. But you wouldn't scream. You 483 00:25:06,356 --> 00:25:08,636 Speaker 1: wouldn't be mean. And that's the kind of voice we're 484 00:25:08,636 --> 00:25:11,996 Speaker 1: trying to to kind of cultivate. But the evidence suggests 485 00:25:11,996 --> 00:25:15,516 Speaker 1: that these practices really work. So what can we do 486 00:25:15,876 --> 00:25:18,436 Speaker 1: with social media? I means the genie out of the bottle? 487 00:25:18,876 --> 00:25:22,236 Speaker 1: How are you talking to teens and to ladies like 488 00:25:22,396 --> 00:25:27,596 Speaker 1: me about kind of monitoring it and moderating it. Yeah, well, 489 00:25:27,876 --> 00:25:29,716 Speaker 1: in some sense, the genie is out of the bottle, right. 490 00:25:29,756 --> 00:25:32,276 Speaker 1: We're not ever going to go back to, you know, 491 00:25:32,396 --> 00:25:34,196 Speaker 1: the way we were, you know, when you and I 492 00:25:34,276 --> 00:25:37,436 Speaker 1: were in college. We're always going to have probably these 493 00:25:37,436 --> 00:25:40,636 Speaker 1: devices in our pockets that have the temptation of comparison, 494 00:25:40,756 --> 00:25:44,476 Speaker 1: that have these technologies available. I think what we can do, though, 495 00:25:44,516 --> 00:25:46,756 Speaker 1: is that we can be a little bit more mindful 496 00:25:46,796 --> 00:25:49,316 Speaker 1: about how these things are making us feel. And I 497 00:25:49,316 --> 00:25:51,156 Speaker 1: think that that's important, right, because we don't want to 498 00:25:51,156 --> 00:25:53,756 Speaker 1: deny the benefits of these things. One of the strategies 499 00:25:53,756 --> 00:25:56,396 Speaker 1: I teach my students comes from the journalist Catherine Price, 500 00:25:56,436 --> 00:25:58,076 Speaker 1: who's this lovely book called How to Break Up with 501 00:25:58,076 --> 00:25:59,756 Speaker 1: Your Phone, where she argues, you don't have to break 502 00:25:59,836 --> 00:26:02,756 Speaker 1: up with your phone, but like couples, counseling probably required, 503 00:26:02,796 --> 00:26:05,356 Speaker 1: you know, for the relationship. And she has this acronym 504 00:26:05,396 --> 00:26:08,516 Speaker 1: that she uses called WWW to help you be more mindful. 505 00:26:08,516 --> 00:26:11,476 Speaker 1: It stands for what for, why now? And what else? 506 00:26:11,756 --> 00:26:13,436 Speaker 1: And so she argues, whenever you find your phone in 507 00:26:13,436 --> 00:26:16,676 Speaker 1: your hand, you should think, oh, www, like what for? 508 00:26:16,956 --> 00:26:18,676 Speaker 1: Was was there a purpose? Like I was checking my 509 00:26:18,756 --> 00:26:21,316 Speaker 1: email or I was going to text a friend. You know, 510 00:26:21,396 --> 00:26:24,556 Speaker 1: maybe it's just my addictive go to right. Why now? Right? 511 00:26:24,596 --> 00:26:26,556 Speaker 1: What was the trigger? You know? Maybe again you had 512 00:26:26,556 --> 00:26:28,796 Speaker 1: something to do, but maybe it was I was feeling anxious, 513 00:26:28,876 --> 00:26:31,836 Speaker 1: or I was feeling bored, or you know, for my students, 514 00:26:31,876 --> 00:26:34,196 Speaker 1: often it's I was feeling a little bit scared about 515 00:26:34,236 --> 00:26:36,756 Speaker 1: engaging in real life social connection talking to someone in 516 00:26:36,756 --> 00:26:38,196 Speaker 1: the dining hall. So I just, you know, picked up 517 00:26:38,196 --> 00:26:40,876 Speaker 1: my phone. But the biggest one, I think is what else, right, 518 00:26:40,916 --> 00:26:43,236 Speaker 1: what's the opportunity cost? What else could you be doing? 519 00:26:43,276 --> 00:26:45,996 Speaker 1: Could you be just like taking a deep breath talking 520 00:26:45,996 --> 00:26:48,796 Speaker 1: to a friend, sleeping? Right? What are you not doing 521 00:26:48,836 --> 00:26:50,756 Speaker 1: because you're on your phone? And what are you missing? 522 00:26:50,836 --> 00:26:53,236 Speaker 1: You know? Sometimes if I land in a new city, 523 00:26:53,836 --> 00:26:58,356 Speaker 1: I am going to the hotel, and I realized I 524 00:26:58,396 --> 00:27:01,796 Speaker 1: didn't even look around at this new place and take 525 00:27:01,876 --> 00:27:07,076 Speaker 1: in being in a totally different environment because I've had 526 00:27:07,156 --> 00:27:10,716 Speaker 1: my face and my phone, and I think this is 527 00:27:10,756 --> 00:27:13,556 Speaker 1: so dumb. Why am I doing this? It is such 528 00:27:13,596 --> 00:27:16,596 Speaker 1: a default, though, Lorie, you know, now, yeah, I think 529 00:27:16,596 --> 00:27:18,836 Speaker 1: it's a default. And often the thing we're missing is 530 00:27:18,876 --> 00:27:23,276 Speaker 1: other people, That's right, because it's distracting. It's very presence 531 00:27:23,476 --> 00:27:26,356 Speaker 1: is distracting. It also prevents you to engage in deep 532 00:27:26,436 --> 00:27:30,236 Speaker 1: thinking because it's interrupting you all the time. Right, And 533 00:27:30,316 --> 00:27:33,076 Speaker 1: it makes sense, right because our brains aren't stupid, like 534 00:27:33,156 --> 00:27:36,236 Speaker 1: they know on the other end of this device, you know, imagine, 535 00:27:36,276 --> 00:27:38,436 Speaker 1: you know, we're having this lovely conversation here and it's 536 00:27:38,556 --> 00:27:40,916 Speaker 1: very fun. But imagine if to the conversation, I brought 537 00:27:40,916 --> 00:27:43,916 Speaker 1: this big wheelbarrow, and in the wheelbarrow, I had like 538 00:27:44,076 --> 00:27:46,956 Speaker 1: my photo album since like nineteen ninety two and print 539 00:27:46,956 --> 00:27:50,636 Speaker 1: outs of everything every politician or you know, Kardashian has said. 540 00:27:50,916 --> 00:27:53,676 Speaker 1: And the last week there was like cat videos and porn, 541 00:27:53,756 --> 00:27:56,036 Speaker 1: just like this huge pile of stuff in the wheel 542 00:27:56,156 --> 00:27:59,796 Speaker 1: and sort of food that you could learn to make. Like, 543 00:27:59,916 --> 00:28:02,596 Speaker 1: your brain isn't stupid. It knows that all that stuff 544 00:28:02,676 --> 00:28:04,556 Speaker 1: is right next to you. But it's having a huge 545 00:28:04,556 --> 00:28:07,876 Speaker 1: effect on our attention and our performance and our social connection. 546 00:28:08,436 --> 00:28:11,716 Speaker 1: Let's talk about global happiness because I mean, look what 547 00:28:11,796 --> 00:28:17,036 Speaker 1: you started learning now there than these worldwide surveys about happiness, 548 00:28:17,076 --> 00:28:20,156 Speaker 1: and what are we learning about those? I think so 549 00:28:20,196 --> 00:28:22,516 Speaker 1: many interesting things. I mean, first, I think we're learning 550 00:28:22,556 --> 00:28:25,596 Speaker 1: that just having a metric is powerful, right. This is 551 00:28:25,596 --> 00:28:28,796 Speaker 1: the World Happiness Survey that goes around globally and tries 552 00:28:28,796 --> 00:28:32,276 Speaker 1: to measure happiness using the sort of standard survey tools 553 00:28:32,276 --> 00:28:34,996 Speaker 1: that we have, and then they rank countries. What we've 554 00:28:35,076 --> 00:28:36,996 Speaker 1: learned from the metrics so far, though, is that there 555 00:28:36,996 --> 00:28:39,916 Speaker 1: are differences. There are countries that since this survey has 556 00:28:39,916 --> 00:28:42,676 Speaker 1: been out there have standardly been around the top, you know, 557 00:28:42,716 --> 00:28:46,116 Speaker 1: places like Denmark, Norway, you know, these Scandinavian countries. And 558 00:28:46,116 --> 00:28:49,276 Speaker 1: there are otherwise very wealthy countries like the US that 559 00:28:49,316 --> 00:28:52,556 Speaker 1: have been surprisingly low on the list, like sixteenth. Yeah, 560 00:28:52,596 --> 00:28:54,636 Speaker 1: not at the bottom, but like not as high as 561 00:28:54,636 --> 00:28:57,116 Speaker 1: we would expect given that, you know, the pursuit of 562 00:28:57,156 --> 00:29:00,476 Speaker 1: happiness is like literally in our Declaration of Independence. And 563 00:29:00,516 --> 00:29:02,516 Speaker 1: I think that can be powerful because we can start 564 00:29:02,556 --> 00:29:04,916 Speaker 1: to ask questions about like, Okay, what are those nations 565 00:29:04,916 --> 00:29:07,156 Speaker 1: that are doing well doing well? And what are we 566 00:29:07,196 --> 00:29:10,036 Speaker 1: missing out on? And have you learned earned anything? I mean, 567 00:29:10,236 --> 00:29:13,996 Speaker 1: is it sort of quality of life? Is it providing 568 00:29:14,196 --> 00:29:18,476 Speaker 1: you know, parental leave and accessible childcare, things that reduce 569 00:29:18,596 --> 00:29:21,436 Speaker 1: stressors for people? It's all of those things. I mean, 570 00:29:21,476 --> 00:29:24,556 Speaker 1: I think it's it's actually having access to you know, 571 00:29:24,636 --> 00:29:26,636 Speaker 1: those sorts of things that we know mean for a 572 00:29:26,676 --> 00:29:29,156 Speaker 1: good life. And so I think what these countries do 573 00:29:29,236 --> 00:29:33,076 Speaker 1: well is that they build things into the structure of 574 00:29:33,116 --> 00:29:35,596 Speaker 1: how they live their lives that make it easier to 575 00:29:35,636 --> 00:29:39,236 Speaker 1: get things like social connection, presence, exercise, and so on, 576 00:29:39,636 --> 00:29:43,396 Speaker 1: and what you have is a lot more equality. Surprisingly, 577 00:29:43,516 --> 00:29:47,236 Speaker 1: COVID did not decrease the happiness metric in many of 578 00:29:47,236 --> 00:29:50,716 Speaker 1: these countries, which says a lot about our resilience. And 579 00:29:50,756 --> 00:29:54,676 Speaker 1: in fact, I think the pandemic in some ways was 580 00:29:54,716 --> 00:29:57,516 Speaker 1: a reset for us. I think so. I think there 581 00:29:57,716 --> 00:30:00,236 Speaker 1: was a little bit of this idea of post traumatic 582 00:30:00,276 --> 00:30:02,796 Speaker 1: growth that we talked about before right where you know. 583 00:30:02,836 --> 00:30:05,436 Speaker 1: It caused us to socially connect more. It caused us 584 00:30:05,436 --> 00:30:07,676 Speaker 1: to recognize our own resilience. It's sort of brought back 585 00:30:07,676 --> 00:30:10,836 Speaker 1: our gratitude for simple things. I think it also really 586 00:30:10,956 --> 00:30:14,476 Speaker 1: taught us to reevaluate what we were doing with our lives. 587 00:30:14,516 --> 00:30:16,956 Speaker 1: I think many people during the pandemic fought a little 588 00:30:16,956 --> 00:30:19,396 Speaker 1: bit more critically about the hustle culture that they might 589 00:30:19,396 --> 00:30:22,116 Speaker 1: have been engaged in, about what it was for. We 590 00:30:22,196 --> 00:30:24,196 Speaker 1: saw that there was a path when we could work 591 00:30:24,236 --> 00:30:26,636 Speaker 1: at home and spend more time with our families. I 592 00:30:26,716 --> 00:30:29,356 Speaker 1: think that's what's leading to this so called great resignation, 593 00:30:29,476 --> 00:30:31,956 Speaker 1: things like quiet quitting. Right now, I think people are 594 00:30:32,036 --> 00:30:36,676 Speaker 1: reevaluating their relationship with work and are maybe considering some 595 00:30:36,756 --> 00:30:38,996 Speaker 1: kind of patterns that might be healthier. I think many 596 00:30:38,996 --> 00:30:41,756 Speaker 1: people are starting to realize that they're frantically climbing up 597 00:30:41,756 --> 00:30:43,756 Speaker 1: this ladder that they might not even want to be 598 00:30:43,796 --> 00:30:46,716 Speaker 1: on in the first place, and they're burning out before 599 00:30:46,716 --> 00:30:50,236 Speaker 1: they even graduate from college. And it's even affecting college 600 00:30:50,276 --> 00:30:55,076 Speaker 1: professors like you, because you took a sabbatical because you 601 00:30:55,116 --> 00:30:58,596 Speaker 1: were afraid you were going to totally burn yourself out. 602 00:30:59,396 --> 00:31:03,036 Speaker 1: So did taking a step back? I know you're still working, 603 00:31:03,716 --> 00:31:08,316 Speaker 1: but getting a change of scenery, etc. Didn't make you happier? 604 00:31:08,716 --> 00:31:10,876 Speaker 1: Oh definitely. I mean, and I'm a nerd, right, so 605 00:31:10,916 --> 00:31:12,916 Speaker 1: I take, you know, like literally data on this. I've 606 00:31:12,916 --> 00:31:15,316 Speaker 1: gone up about a point on a ten point happiness scale. Yeah, 607 00:31:15,356 --> 00:31:18,076 Speaker 1: I mean, I was really I really started to notice 608 00:31:18,116 --> 00:31:20,956 Speaker 1: in the midst of this pandemic all the classic signs 609 00:31:20,956 --> 00:31:24,836 Speaker 1: of early burnout. Right. I was emotionally exhausted, not just 610 00:31:24,876 --> 00:31:26,876 Speaker 1: physically exhausted. It was just like kind of tired, like 611 00:31:26,916 --> 00:31:29,916 Speaker 1: if one more email came like I was gonna, you know, 612 00:31:30,036 --> 00:31:32,076 Speaker 1: just lose it. It It was just like too much. I 613 00:31:32,116 --> 00:31:35,076 Speaker 1: was feeling really cynical, right, My fuse was really short 614 00:31:35,116 --> 00:31:37,316 Speaker 1: with the people around me, especially my students. That was 615 00:31:37,596 --> 00:31:39,716 Speaker 1: that was the thing that affected me most. That's not 616 00:31:39,876 --> 00:31:41,996 Speaker 1: normal for me, and that was really big. But the 617 00:31:42,356 --> 00:31:44,716 Speaker 1: biggest thing I think I experienced during COVID on college 618 00:31:44,756 --> 00:31:47,476 Speaker 1: campuses was the third kind of symptom of burnout, which 619 00:31:47,516 --> 00:31:50,636 Speaker 1: is a sense of personal ineffectiveness, like even if you 620 00:31:50,676 --> 00:31:53,156 Speaker 1: did your job the best that you possibly could, it 621 00:31:53,196 --> 00:31:55,676 Speaker 1: wouldn't be good enough. And I was like, wait, you know, 622 00:31:55,796 --> 00:31:58,476 Speaker 1: I've read the papers. I know where this leads. I 623 00:31:58,516 --> 00:32:00,516 Speaker 1: need to make some changes. And the good news is 624 00:32:00,556 --> 00:32:02,436 Speaker 1: I think, you know, for me, at least, the changes 625 00:32:02,796 --> 00:32:05,476 Speaker 1: have been great. That actually made the very difficult decision 626 00:32:05,516 --> 00:32:08,036 Speaker 1: to step down as a head of college on campus 627 00:32:08,316 --> 00:32:10,316 Speaker 1: in part because I was realizing that, you know, to 628 00:32:10,436 --> 00:32:12,876 Speaker 1: do that job as well as I wanted to, I 629 00:32:12,916 --> 00:32:16,756 Speaker 1: just didn't have the bandwidth anymore. Have you regained your 630 00:32:16,876 --> 00:32:20,956 Speaker 1: happiness equilibrium as a result of stepping back? And you know, 631 00:32:21,156 --> 00:32:25,196 Speaker 1: will it change when you re enter the Yale campus? 632 00:32:26,116 --> 00:32:28,036 Speaker 1: Will it change me? Yeah? I think I'll make, you know, 633 00:32:28,076 --> 00:32:30,036 Speaker 1: some big changes. You know, stepping down from this role 634 00:32:30,076 --> 00:32:32,436 Speaker 1: has been a big one. You know, I'm already sort 635 00:32:32,436 --> 00:32:34,756 Speaker 1: of thinking about how i can have a better balance 636 00:32:34,836 --> 00:32:36,996 Speaker 1: with some of the stuff I'm doing. There Again, you 637 00:32:36,996 --> 00:32:39,676 Speaker 1: have to remember, happiness isn't this destination. This is going 638 00:32:39,716 --> 00:32:42,756 Speaker 1: to keep and taking a more constant It's not a constant. 639 00:32:43,676 --> 00:32:47,556 Speaker 1: Let's close this out with some Laurie Santo's happiness tidbits. 640 00:32:47,716 --> 00:32:51,316 Speaker 1: One is, as you mentioned, it takes work. So what 641 00:32:51,356 --> 00:32:53,956 Speaker 1: does that mean, Like if you were saying, Katie, if 642 00:32:53,956 --> 00:32:57,196 Speaker 1: you want to be happy and happier, this is what 643 00:32:57,236 --> 00:32:59,196 Speaker 1: you should do. What kind of work do I have 644 00:32:59,276 --> 00:33:01,396 Speaker 1: to do? I think the first piece of work is 645 00:33:01,396 --> 00:33:04,396 Speaker 1: just recognizing that your intuitions are off right, that you 646 00:33:04,476 --> 00:33:06,076 Speaker 1: just have these normal things that you think, Oh, i've 647 00:33:06,076 --> 00:33:07,956 Speaker 1: had a bad day, I'll you know, I'll get a manicure. 648 00:33:08,036 --> 00:33:09,876 Speaker 1: Oh you know, this is I'll do, or I'll keep 649 00:33:09,916 --> 00:33:11,596 Speaker 1: pushing at work. You know, for X, Y, and Z, 650 00:33:11,996 --> 00:33:14,316 Speaker 1: we have these intuitions about the things that we should 651 00:33:14,356 --> 00:33:16,356 Speaker 1: be doing, that we're supposed to be doing. I think 652 00:33:16,396 --> 00:33:18,756 Speaker 1: you have to realize that those intuitions are wrong, right. 653 00:33:18,796 --> 00:33:20,956 Speaker 1: You have to say the science says, do something else 654 00:33:21,276 --> 00:33:23,196 Speaker 1: in really simple domains, right. You know, if you have 655 00:33:23,236 --> 00:33:25,756 Speaker 1: a long day at work, you might have the intuition of, like, oh, 656 00:33:25,796 --> 00:33:28,436 Speaker 1: I just want to PLoP down and just a glass 657 00:33:28,436 --> 00:33:31,276 Speaker 1: of wine, which is a depressant, by the way, exactly 658 00:33:31,396 --> 00:33:33,396 Speaker 1: when you know so much. Science suggests that if you 659 00:33:33,476 --> 00:33:36,676 Speaker 1: instead called a friend, went for a walk, you know, 660 00:33:36,756 --> 00:33:38,596 Speaker 1: just try to engage in something that was a little 661 00:33:38,596 --> 00:33:40,876 Speaker 1: bit more challenging of a form of leisure than plopping 662 00:33:40,876 --> 00:33:43,676 Speaker 1: down to watch that pickall lesson, take a pickleball lesson. 663 00:33:43,756 --> 00:33:45,396 Speaker 1: You know, just like on your phone, do a lingo 664 00:33:45,516 --> 00:33:48,596 Speaker 1: something right like that would be better. Text a friend 665 00:33:48,596 --> 00:33:50,236 Speaker 1: that you're a little bit worried about, right, Become a 666 00:33:50,276 --> 00:33:53,036 Speaker 1: little bit more other oriented. When we're in these moments 667 00:33:53,036 --> 00:33:56,076 Speaker 1: where we're feeling stressed, we're feeling overwhelmed, we're feeling a 668 00:33:56,076 --> 00:33:59,116 Speaker 1: little sad, there are just simple behaviors we can engage 669 00:33:59,116 --> 00:34:01,116 Speaker 1: in that are going to work better than what our 670 00:34:01,196 --> 00:34:04,836 Speaker 1: natural intuition is. Laurie Santos, this has been so fun. 671 00:34:04,876 --> 00:34:06,956 Speaker 1: Thank you for spending so much time with me. I 672 00:34:06,996 --> 00:34:10,556 Speaker 1: feel I just went to therapist and I owe you 673 00:34:11,116 --> 00:34:16,836 Speaker 1: whatever a lot. Thank you, Lourie. Thanks so much. Thanks 674 00:34:16,836 --> 00:34:19,476 Speaker 1: for listening everyone. If you have a question for me, 675 00:34:19,596 --> 00:34:22,476 Speaker 1: or want to share your thoughts about how you navigate 676 00:34:22,556 --> 00:34:25,676 Speaker 1: this crazy world reach out. You can leave a short 677 00:34:25,716 --> 00:34:29,436 Speaker 1: message at six oh nine five one two five five 678 00:34:29,596 --> 00:34:33,196 Speaker 1: oh five, or you can send me a DM on Instagram. 679 00:34:33,236 --> 00:34:36,276 Speaker 1: I would love to hear from you. Next Question is 680 00:34:36,276 --> 00:34:40,556 Speaker 1: a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kurik Media. The executive 681 00:34:40,596 --> 00:34:44,676 Speaker 1: producers are Me, Katie Curik, and Courtney Litz. Our supervising 682 00:34:44,716 --> 00:34:49,196 Speaker 1: producer is Marcy Thompson. Our producers are Adriana Fasio and 683 00:34:49,316 --> 00:34:53,036 Speaker 1: Catherine Law. Our audio engineer is Matt Russell, who also 684 00:34:53,076 --> 00:34:57,036 Speaker 1: composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode, 685 00:34:57,196 --> 00:34:59,476 Speaker 1: or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call, 686 00:34:59,796 --> 00:35:02,516 Speaker 1: go to the description in the podcast app, or visit 687 00:35:02,596 --> 00:35:05,596 Speaker 1: us at Katiecurrek dot com. You can also find me 688 00:35:05,676 --> 00:35:09,316 Speaker 1: on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more 689 00:35:09,356 --> 00:35:14,516 Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 690 00:35:14,516 --> 00:35:16,596 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.