1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:01,680 Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a 2 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:03,800 Speaker 1: cult or a high control group, or if you've had 3 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: an experience with manipulation or abuse of power you'd like 4 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:06,640 Speaker 1: to share. 5 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:08,560 Speaker 2: You do us an email at trust Me pod at 6 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:10,160 Speaker 2: gmail dot com. 7 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 3: Trust Me, trust Me. I'm like a swat person. I've 8 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 3: never lied to you. 9 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:20,919 Speaker 1: I never Do you think that one person has all 10 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:25,440 Speaker 1: the answers? Don't Welcome to Trust Me the podcast about cults, 11 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: extreme belief and the abuse of power from two politicians 12 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: who've actually experienced it. 13 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 2: I am Lo La Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth. 14 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: Vote for us. This week our guest and next week 15 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: our guest is Natai Joseph. He is a former Harry 16 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: Krishna monk who now has a Masters of Psychology and 17 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: course of Control and has a lot of interesting things 18 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 1: to say about a lot of topics. So in part 19 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:49,239 Speaker 1: one of our interview this week, he's going to tell 20 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 1: us about growing up in a moderate Harry Krishna group, 21 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: what the general Harry Krishna beliefs are, and getting drawn 22 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: in by a kind of a cooler guru who's seen 23 00:00:57,160 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: more with it and brought him to northern California. 24 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 2: We'll get it into what it was like once he 25 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 2: devoted his life to the group, the labor exploitation he experienced, 26 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 2: and how the guru's structure is inherently dangerous, and what 27 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:08,759 Speaker 2: he learned. 28 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: And next week we will discuss an interesting perspective on meditation. Yeah, 29 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: culturally kind of. There's a bit of a culty devotion 30 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 1: to the idea of meditation right now, and there just 31 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: is some alternative perspective on some evidence that points to 32 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:23,759 Speaker 1: it not being right for everyone. 33 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 2: It's not the cure all, be all. It's just one 34 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 2: sign point and home one what sign. 35 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 1: Sign point in home? 36 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 3: Cool? 37 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, But that's next week. And this week 38 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 1: we will focus on his personal story. But before we 39 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:43,679 Speaker 1: get into it, shall we discuss our cultyes thing together. 40 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:46,039 Speaker 2: Yeah, let's do it. I think we have the same one. 41 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 2: So let's introduce it. 42 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: Let's introduce it. So I'm sure that most of you 43 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 1: saw this week, this past couple of weeks, really that 44 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: Clarence Thomas, one of our Supreme Court justices here in 45 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 1: the United States, his wife, Ginny Thomas. Some stuff has 46 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 1: come out about her. Not only is she a major 47 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: Trump supporter who has been trying to overturn the election 48 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 1: of Joe Biden. But she also, fascinatingly was in a 49 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:18,839 Speaker 1: cult herself, probably like early eighties. There's this video that 50 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: Steve Hassen, friend of the show, posted of her talking 51 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 1: about her time in Life Spring and how harmful it 52 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: was and how cult like it was. Some of the 53 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: things that they talked about doing were similar to like 54 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 1: scientology and Nexiom, where they would gather people in a 55 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:36,519 Speaker 1: group and make them share deep things about their trauma 56 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: and their histories and their lives, but also just like 57 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: fully ridicule their bodies and like humiliate them on purpose, 58 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: and it had complete control over their lives. Was there 59 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: anything else that you saw about it that you thought 60 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 1: was interesting? 61 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 2: Just the fact that she said that it controlled every 62 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 2: aspect of her life was very interesting to me because 63 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 2: I'd never thought of that group as being not all controlling, 64 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 2: but of course it probably is. 65 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: I don't think i'd heard of this group really. I mean, 66 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 1: it sounded like vaguely familiar, but I don't know what 67 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 1: it was. 68 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 2: Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought it was just the 69 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 2: kind of Nexiam type. Here's how you be a fucking winner, 70 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:15,799 Speaker 2: like a landmark almost executive. Yeah, Yeah, that was. 71 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: Big in eighties and nineties, I feel like, but no, 72 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: I didn't know anything about it. Well, what's so interesting 73 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: about that is not just that obviously she was in 74 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 1: Coulton now is a full on Trump fanatic, but she 75 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: like joined the Cult Awareness Network after and became an 76 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: anti cult activist for years until cut to the past 77 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 1: few years. She started clearly going down the QAnon rabbit hole. 78 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 2: Huh. 79 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 1: And we say that because of texts that came out 80 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: between her and Mark Meadows, Trump's chief of staff, fully 81 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 1: parroting QAnon talking points and phrasings and conspiracy theories. And 82 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: this is the wife of one of our Supreme Court 83 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: justices who is making crucial decisions for the future of 84 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: the country. You might say, well, that doesn't affect him. 85 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 1: But interestingly, this year in January, this is a quote 86 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 1: from some article I had copied. I can't remember which 87 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: one it was from, But he was the only justice 88 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: who noted a dissent when the court allowed the release 89 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 1: of records from the Trump White House related to the 90 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: January sixth attack. So this fool, whatever his personal opinions 91 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:29,159 Speaker 1: on it, he's very deeply in the trenches of this 92 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: like kind of leaf system via his wife, and that 93 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:33,839 Speaker 1: is a very very dangerous thing. 94 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 2: WHOA. I just want to. 95 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: Quote some of the texts because they're terrifying to me. 96 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:39,839 Speaker 1: So it's like it's all these cute on talking points 97 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: Biden crime family and ballot fraud co conspirators are. I 98 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: feel like it was a like an email chain, but 99 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: like on text like this, like phrasing was going around 100 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: the like you know, right wing conspiracy community are being 101 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: arrested and detained for ballot fraud right now in overcoming 102 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 1: days and will be living in barges off getm to 103 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 1: Face Military Tribunals, first edition. Okay, So fucking the wife 104 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 1: of Supreme Court justice is sharing this with the fucking 105 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,159 Speaker 1: chief of staff of the White House, and he is 106 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 1: responding and he is fully on board. He is fully 107 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: a part of this. She added, I hope this is true. 108 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: Oh you hope this is true military tribunals because people 109 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 1: want to they want to believe the evidence, which is 110 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 1: that they're the election was like correct. And then she said, 111 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:32,039 Speaker 1: and this part is so interesting to me because they're 112 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 1: texting back and forth. They're using this like very almost 113 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:40,160 Speaker 1: like a formal sounding like royal military language. It sounds 114 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 1: like they think they're in fucking game of Thrones or something. 115 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 1: She says, do not concede. It takes time for the 116 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: army who is gathering for his back. He called the 117 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: election a fight of good versus evil, and added evil 118 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: always looks like the victor until the king of King's 119 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: triumphs do not grow weary and well doing the fight continues. 120 00:05:58,279 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: Are you just fucking LARPing? 121 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 2: It sounds more like Christianity, like extreme to me, you know, like, uh, 122 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 2: are you LARPing? Is the funniest question. But you know 123 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 2: when people start speaking like yee and thee and you know, 124 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 2: and like true just very formal and old and terrifying. 125 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, you guys, like what is happening? 126 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 2: What is happening? 127 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 1: I was just saying this to you before we started recording, 128 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:32,720 Speaker 1: but like it's I'm having a really hard time with 129 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: my like climate existential anxiety. You know, we've sort of 130 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: talked about how people who have this armageddon type of 131 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: mentality are not going to be the people we can 132 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 1: rely on to take any action to prevent the Earth 133 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: from literally being destroyed by climate change. Yeah, because they 134 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:52,280 Speaker 1: think that this is all part of the plant they 135 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:54,679 Speaker 1: think destruction is a good thing because it means Jesus 136 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 1: is coming back. 137 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 3: Right. 138 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 2: It's a very very bad cycle that I used to 139 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:01,720 Speaker 2: get in my fight with my dad about a lot really, 140 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 2: because he would say stuff like that, Yeah, I big 141 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 2: climate change and Megan, Jesus is gonna come back to 142 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:06,559 Speaker 2: the Earth. 143 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: I'd be like, what, dude. 144 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 2: Like, other people don't believe that, so maybe we should 145 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 2: just be polite to them, you know, and not ruin 146 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 2: the earth, you know, just to be neighborly. Right. 147 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, it scares me so much. The idea of Trump 148 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: being president again scares me so so, so, so so 149 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: so much, especially considering how how much he's been patting 150 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 1: Putin's back for the mass murder and war crimes that 151 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: are occurring right now. 152 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I'm not too hype on our current 153 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 2: government either, but it's all just falling apart. 154 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna say this because I feel like this 155 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: point comes up a lot, like whatever you think about 156 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 1: the current administration and how they're not ideal and they're 157 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: not perfect, Like, if only for the sake of the planet, 158 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: at least, having an administration that believes in climate change 159 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: and wants to do something about it. If that is 160 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: it's the only reason that you vote, please like, let 161 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 1: that be the thing. Absolutely not saying they're perfect, of 162 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: course they're fucking not. But you know we need to 163 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: have a planet for any of those other issues to 164 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: even matter. Side note, I forgot to shout out last 165 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: week and I'm so mad at myself. I'm still crap 166 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: bunding my film. Yes, I know this is we're taking 167 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:25,679 Speaker 1: up too much time in this intro is too long, 168 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: but you guys, I'll make it quick bit dot l 169 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: y slash pruning film. If you donate. I'm not sure 170 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: if it lets you include a note, but I will 171 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 1: thank you if you donate, and then you can respond. 172 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: I will shout you out on the podcast any amount. 173 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 1: Just if you donate, I can give you a little 174 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 1: shout out on here. Yeah, whatever message you want, as 175 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: long as it's not offensive or fucked up. I just 176 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 1: am trying to get this thing done. We're almost fifty 177 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: percent there, and that's the intermash meal. Sorry, let's let's 178 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: let's talk to and die. 179 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 2: Let's do it. 180 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 1: Welcome the TI Joseph. I'm so happy to have you 181 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: on today. 182 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you. 183 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:12,959 Speaker 1: Nice to see you again, So you have so much 184 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: to talk about. We had a hard time even picking 185 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: the specific subjects because there's so many ways we could 186 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 1: go with it. But today first, can you just start 187 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: us off with your own experience as a Hari Krishna monk, 188 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: and can you just tell us like how that came 189 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: to be? You were born into a hary Krishna group originally. 190 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah? And I also just want to say, like, 191 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 3: I'm a fan of the podcast. I follow you guys 192 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 3: when you first started. You reached out to me and 193 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 3: I wasn't feeling up for recording then. And what happened 194 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:42,319 Speaker 3: actually was I matched with someone on Tinder. My profile 195 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 3: mentioned that I work in this area, and she was like, 196 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 3: have you ever heard the Trust Me podcast? No? And 197 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 3: I was like, I know, Christine, and so I was like, yeah, 198 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 3: I'm familiar. I haven't really listened to it, and that's 199 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 3: what got me listening to it, like probably a year 200 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 3: ago now. Yay. It consistently followed since. 201 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: Oh I'm so happy, thanks for listening and thanks for 202 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 1: coming on. I'm that makes me very happy. 203 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,440 Speaker 2: Hell me too, and Christine as well as Mom of course, 204 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 2: so full circle amazing. 205 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:10,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, tell us things. 206 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, so you know, Harry Krishnas is kind of a 207 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 3: broad term that arose from the general public, not that 208 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 3: they don't use it internally, but you know, within the 209 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 3: broader umbrella of that, there's multiple groups and sex and 210 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 3: the main one is the International Society for Christiana Consciousness. 211 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 3: It's called ISKAN is the acronym, it's probably how I'll 212 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 3: refer to it moving forward. And so that's used to 213 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 3: be the only one in the best. 214 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 1: Was that the famous ones where people would see the 215 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: people in orange, That was that yuse L. 216 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 3: So, like nineteen sixty five, the founder came to New 217 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 3: York City, slowly started building up a following, and that's 218 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:50,439 Speaker 3: like what my parents joined. You know, my mom talked 219 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 3: out of college in Boston move into the temple when 220 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 3: she was nineteen. Oh. 221 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 2: Was this the Beatles stuff too? Was this when all 222 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:00,439 Speaker 2: the rock stars were doing well? 223 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 3: Okay, yeah. It's a really interesting kind of cultural phenomenon. 224 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 3: You know, there was a lot of middle and upper 225 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 3: middle class kids with historically unique degree of stability and 226 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 3: comfort and this like countercultural movement of like deeper meaning 227 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 3: and so it was really ripe for that kind of 228 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 3: classic era of cults. As we often think of it. 229 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 3: And you know my mom, my mom ran away from 230 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 3: summer camp in upstate New York to go to Woodstock 231 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 3: like that. That was a few years before she joined 232 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 3: the temple, right, so definitely that influence. George Harrison specifically 233 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 3: was the most connected to the Harry Krishna's and he's 234 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 3: almost like an unofficial I wouldn't say same, but Harry 235 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 3: Christnas have a funny, little interesting love for him because 236 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 3: of his connection. He actually donated a big temple in 237 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 3: the UK and paid for the printing of an early 238 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 3: edition of some of their books. So he was he 239 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 3: was kind of into it. 240 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:58,679 Speaker 1: And where was the temple your mom joined? 241 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 3: She joined in Boston from her college, and my father 242 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 3: joined in New York City where he was living. 243 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: Then got it and so that's how I met. 244 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and well they yeah, they didn't meet for years. 245 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 3: They were both married and divorced once within the organ 246 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 3: region and later we're there. I mean, arranged marriages were 247 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 3: a norm at one point. 248 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: Wow. 249 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 3: There was also a small amount of polygamy in the 250 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 3: early days. My mom was Actually there wasn't many people 251 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:27,079 Speaker 3: who ended up involved in that, but my mom's first marriage, 252 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 3: she was a second wife living aw in I think Mississippi. 253 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 3: You know, she's nineteen, and like, you know, she would 254 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 3: tell me about that when I was growing up, and 255 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:38,719 Speaker 3: it's not until you get a bit older that you 256 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 3: understand then nineteen as a. 257 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 1: Child, yeah, yeah, no. 258 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 3: And so yeah, there was a brief experiment with polygamy 259 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 3: because there's some precedent for that in Hindu Indian culture. 260 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 3: But ultimately my parents were married when the temple president 261 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 3: in Philadelphia, where they both lived in the eighties called 262 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 3: my mom into the office and said, there's two guys 263 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 3: there you can pick. 264 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: Oh, how generous. 265 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 3: So you know, one was a door to door way 266 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 3: protein salesman and one was my dad, who gave lectures 267 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 3: and was more philosophical. And so that was my mom's inclination. 268 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 1: Wow, okay, So what was it like growing up in 269 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: this community? Were you like, did you kind of just 270 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:27,680 Speaker 1: live a normal life and then you just went to 271 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 1: church or were you living somewhere culty or yeah. 272 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, Well it varies for me. By the time I 273 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:36,679 Speaker 3: was born, like my brother, some of his early years 274 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 3: he's four and a half years older than me, were 275 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 3: spent in temple communities. When I was born, my parents 276 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 3: were running a preaching center in Virginia that they just 277 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 3: kind of operated themselves. And then shortly thereafter we moved 278 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 3: back to Maryland, which is where my mom was from. 279 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 3: So my childhood was ostensibly kind of normal. I went 280 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:59,559 Speaker 3: to public school. I went to like a Presbyterian daycare. 281 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 3: At one point when I was real young, my friends 282 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:07,680 Speaker 3: were mostly not Harry Krishna kids. You know. The backdrop 283 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 3: is like my first the middle name, or Harry Chrishna 284 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 3: names that no one's ever heard of. Our whole family's vegetarian. 285 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 3: There was some like weekly there's a Sunday weekly thing, 286 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 3: you know, and we would go to that. But I 287 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 3: pretty quickly, once I was old enough to throw a 288 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 3: strong enough tantrum, I'd like, didn't want to go to 289 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 3: the temple. I found it was dumb, so I'd stay home. 290 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 3: I'd just like, you know, argue with my mom until 291 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 3: she was so frustrated that she just went on her own. 292 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 3: So I don't consider that I was very indoctrinated or 293 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 3: I wasn't very even knowledgeable about the tenets as a kid, right, 294 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 3: I never went There was a lot of Harry Christian 295 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 3: boarding schools historically, a lot of abuse occurred in those 296 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 3: I never went to any of that, and so for me, 297 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 3: I didn't identify with the religion as a younger kid. 298 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 1: It sounds comparable to just like a lot my friends 299 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 1: who grew up kind of Catholic, but it wasn't a 300 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: big part of their lives. It was just like the 301 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: religion your parents had. 302 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 3: And I think where the difference is not that this 303 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 3: couldn't happen in Catholicism, is that cults have cultic systems 304 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 3: have such a pervasive destabilizing effect that there's like other 305 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 3: elements of the family structure, of my mom's mental health, 306 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 3: et cetera, that do relate to the group and do 307 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 3: have an effect on your upbringing, but aren't directly the 308 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 3: doctrine or the community, you know what I mean. So, 309 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 3: for example, for us, the founder of the Hari Krishnos 310 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 3: is famous for saying, and you know there's no record 311 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 3: of this, as with so many things, that secular schools 312 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 3: were slaughter houses of the soul. That's the point. And 313 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 3: so while my mom grew up in a suburban pro 314 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 3: education household, that attitude was not her whole perspective, but 315 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 3: it was part of her perspective. So when I middle school, 316 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 3: started hanging out with older friends smoking some pot and 317 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 3: decided I basically didn't want to go to school in 318 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 3: eighth grade, there she was like, cool, I have friends 319 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 3: with this homeschool system, Like what's homeschool? You know? And 320 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 3: so that readiness to you know, go that route as 321 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 3: partly the group's influence. Another one is, you know, a 322 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 3: mixed regard for mainstream medicine. And so my mom had 323 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 3: health issues too. She didn't eschew all medicine shaped cancer, 324 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 3: she had MS, but there are multiple points where a 325 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 3: less biased attitude towards the mainstream probably would have served 326 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 3: her better, you know what I mean? 327 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: M hmmm. 328 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 3: Right. 329 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 1: As far as some of the basic car Christiana beliefs, 330 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 1: my understanding is its desire leads to suffering the butt 331 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: are we trying to transcend the body? 332 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 3: Like? 333 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: Tell me what most of the groups would have in common? 334 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 3: So I say, desire suffering, Yes, that is the view 335 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 3: framed that way. It's it's a lot more buddhist esque. 336 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 3: It's kind of like one of the four Noble Truths 337 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 3: of Buddhism Ari Krishna, like in a nutshell, it's theistic. 338 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,439 Speaker 3: For one, there's some notion of a god, of a 339 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 3: spiritual life that one can attain after they and the 340 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 3: cycle of reincarnation. And so the notion of reincarnation is 341 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,680 Speaker 3: bound to karma, and karma is like you know, good 342 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 3: or bad, there's there's some repercussions, and so the Harry 343 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,679 Speaker 3: Krishna ideas, because ultimately you want to transcend the world, 344 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 3: whether it's good or bad, it's still bondage. That's the notion. 345 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 3: They're still bound to the cycle, okay, And so it 346 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,640 Speaker 3: really starts to suck the color out of life when 347 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 3: you adopt a you like that, and it even gets 348 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 3: more perverse, and it's like the more you like something, 349 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 3: the more it hurts when you're gonna lose it. So 350 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:53,919 Speaker 3: even worse right, ultimately you're going to be robbed of 351 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 3: all things, So don't attach. And so I really find 352 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:04,120 Speaker 3: this aspect of Eastern thought a very almost reactionary protective 353 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,359 Speaker 3: let's pre by not participating in life. 354 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:11,399 Speaker 1: I feel like that line of thinking is like the 355 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:15,160 Speaker 1: primary source of when I become depressed. It's like it's 356 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:16,959 Speaker 1: because I'm like, well, things are good now, but they 357 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: won't be later on, which is like the exact thing 358 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: I need to not do to feel okay in my life. 359 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 3: You know, so because they won't be later on. Like 360 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 3: what is the use of you doing them? Now? 361 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 1: That's the argument, right, Like there's no value in just 362 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 1: the impermanent present. 363 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:36,239 Speaker 2: It's so strange because it also is saying that the 364 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 2: present is important. 365 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 3: No, Like I mean, this is some of the word jugglery, 366 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 3: as Harry Christians would call it. Even that occurs. We 367 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 3: can talk about like being in the present moment. But 368 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:50,160 Speaker 3: I was listening to a podcast earlier today about mindfulness. 369 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 3: The point was being made how mindfulness can mean like 370 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 3: an intimate interaction with something, an idea or the present moment, 371 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 3: or it can mean like a detail atched a looseness 372 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 3: and so you get like the whole spectrum there. So 373 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 3: whenever people talk about the moment, I kind of put 374 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:10,159 Speaker 3: it in that kind of category where it's like, you 375 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 3: don't know what they actually mean, right, And to get 376 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 3: the more context. 377 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 1: Well, let's get into some of your stuff. So, Swami Tripuri, 378 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 1: is that how you say it? So eighteen years old, 379 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:27,639 Speaker 1: you begin hearing this guy's teachings, can you talk about that? 380 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: What was different about what he was saying? 381 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, my conscious interest in the religion began around 382 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 3: kind of fourteen fifteen, when you know, really my brother 383 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:42,639 Speaker 3: had become really devout and he preached very you know, 384 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,440 Speaker 3: strongly to me. And as a fourteen fifteen year old, 385 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 3: you don't have the rebuttals and the ideas and these arguments. 386 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 3: You know, people don't understand. These arguments that someone is 387 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 3: making in favor of their tradition have been honed over 388 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 3: literally centuries sometimes, you know, where we're talking about points 389 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 3: that are iterated upon and then tweaked to apply to 390 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,640 Speaker 3: current situation. So like I think people think, who would 391 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 3: fall for that? But it's like, no, this is a 392 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:15,119 Speaker 3: if you're entering with an open mind into a debate 393 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 3: of sorts, someone representing a group, especially a long standing group, 394 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 3: is bringing the culmination of decades and centuries of argumentation 395 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 3: and like apologetics. It's not all dumb. It's like there's 396 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:35,120 Speaker 3: philosophers there to refine this influence, right, And so that's 397 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:39,440 Speaker 3: when I basically, at like fourteen fifteen, I came away 398 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:41,439 Speaker 3: with this sense like this is what I should do 399 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 3: with my life when I have the determination, and the 400 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 3: next few years where me like living a more normal life, 401 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 3: hanging out with friends, working in restaurants, drinking whatever, but 402 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,119 Speaker 3: dogged by this sense that like, ultimately I should be 403 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:02,479 Speaker 3: doing something else. Slowly, like I said, it kind of 404 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 3: sucked the life and the value out of relationship. You know, 405 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 3: I started seeing everyone as you know, more superficial and 406 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 3: so on, and so it like this gradual trending. And 407 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 3: then when I became more devout myself, I'm trying to 408 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:24,399 Speaker 3: even remember what if there was a more specificist Actually 409 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:26,879 Speaker 3: yeah there was, so I was already kind of getting 410 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 3: into it more spiritual. I was like working in vegetarian restaurant, 411 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 3: and the kind of people that work there were also 412 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:37,200 Speaker 3: like more amenable the spiritual ideas. We'd talk about philosophy 413 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 3: a lot. And there was one friend in this group 414 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 3: of friends who I hadn't been super close with, but 415 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 3: we were planning to go live together on a farm 416 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 3: and do woofing, you know, where you like intern on 417 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,639 Speaker 3: an organic party. Oh and this specific farm was a 418 00:21:55,680 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 3: retreat center also that like hosted a variety of different groups, 419 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 3: and so we were planning to go there and two 420 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 3: days before that, and one day before his birthday, he 421 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 3: commits suicide. Oh, and so that really sped up the 422 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 3: disillusionment with life process in a way. Yeah, that I 423 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:19,160 Speaker 3: was kind of like I was already at the point 424 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:20,919 Speaker 3: where I felt like what I should do with my 425 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:24,639 Speaker 3: life is like this Harry Krishna stuff in turning on 426 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 3: the farm was kind of like an in between to 427 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,360 Speaker 3: me to like moving into a Harry Chrishna community. And 428 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 3: so when he commits suicide, I was kind of like, 429 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:34,719 Speaker 3: I need to stop beating around the bush and just 430 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 3: like do this thing. And so that really became the 431 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 3: catalyst for That's when I like quit my job, stopped 432 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:47,919 Speaker 3: hanging out with friends, stopped smoking, started reading books and 433 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 3: chanting and in the Hari Krishna routine. And yeah, that 434 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 3: was seventeen eighteen. 435 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 1: Wow, I can imagine what a shift that would be. 436 00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: I feel like anyone would, especially at that age, like 437 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: that would shift someone into a new phase of life regardless. 438 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 2: You know. 439 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, And it was complex because again, like I wasn't 440 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,679 Speaker 3: nearly the closest to him among our mutual friends, but 441 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 3: we were about to embark on this trip just the 442 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 3: two of us, so there was some connection between us 443 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 3: and that timeframe that made the whole situation more personal, 444 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:20,440 Speaker 3: you know. 445 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,680 Speaker 1: Of course, Yeah, right, I saw you talking about how 446 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: having a guru is like a key part of the culture. 447 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:31,400 Speaker 1: Can you set that up for us, Like, does everyone 448 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 1: have a guru? Is that inherent to Harry Krishna? 449 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:38,440 Speaker 3: Yes, I mean there are people who will take other stances, 450 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,119 Speaker 3: but to argue otherwise is to really start to shift 451 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 3: the kind of core accepted tenets and even scriptural proclamation. 452 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 3: So the basic premise, and this isn't just exclusive to 453 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,919 Speaker 3: Harry Christians, is like the scripture is perfect, it comes 454 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:57,639 Speaker 3: from outside of human creation, and so it's like authoritative, 455 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 3: but conveniently, you know, you me et cetera. We're not 456 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 3: qualified to fully understand that scripture, and so the guru 457 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 3: an essential component of understanding that. And so they kind 458 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 3: of have this three pronged notion of like the Guru, 459 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 3: the Sadu, which just means like saint, like more broadly 460 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 3: saintly people, and then the scripture and like those are 461 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 3: the three things. And so you know, the Hari Krishna 462 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 3: version of heaven so to speak, implies or involves an 463 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 3: eternal relationship with one's guru. So there's also the stakes 464 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 3: are very high, even though there's very obvious nonsensical things 465 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 3: like if I'm reincarnated in multiple lives? Is that the 466 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 3: same guru in each one? 467 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 2: Or right? 468 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 3: Your isn't he going to heaven when he dies? Like? 469 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:49,680 Speaker 2: Right? 470 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,400 Speaker 3: The guru premise is pretty essential. So when I started 471 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,679 Speaker 3: getting serious, I was going to the localist con temples 472 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 3: that were near me in Maryland and participating, but also 473 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 3: not fully satisfied. There's a lot of fanaticism and kind 474 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 3: of clickishness sometimes. That organization has a huge there's many 475 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 3: gurus under one organization, So it's just a very complex 476 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 3: entity in terms of authority and history because it was 477 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 3: founded by a single guru. And then there's the succession dramas, 478 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 3: which were utterly insane. In the Hari Krishna's of the 479 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 3: initial eleven successor gurus, one was murdered by his disciples 480 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 3: of crazy stuff. Well, yeah, they actually carved up the 481 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 3: world when the founder died. They basically carved up the 482 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 3: entire planet and assigned these initial gurus as zones. So 483 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 3: if you join the Hari Krishnas in Zone A, doesn't 484 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 3: matter who you like, you're a disciple of Zone A 485 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,920 Speaker 3: leader WHOA. And there was a lot of issues with that, 486 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 3: a lot, you know, every sort of abuse of power 487 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 3: and sex, scandals and money and all that jazz. So 488 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 3: when I then, you know, fast forward a couple of 489 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:16,159 Speaker 3: decades from the eighties and nineties when that stuff was 490 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 3: in its prime, all that messiness. When I then come 491 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 3: around and want to get serious, I have some awareness 492 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 3: of how murky the finding your guru territory is, and 493 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 3: so very quickly, early on, I'm reading these books that 494 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:38,120 Speaker 3: are like, not scriptural books, they're like they're like organizational books, 495 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 3: like the Guru. There's one called like the Guru Reform Book. 496 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 3: I was like, well, shit, if I'm supposed to have 497 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 3: a guru and basically most of them say their peers 498 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:52,439 Speaker 3: are not legitimate. Oh gosh, it's the whole it's a 499 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 3: whole thing to sort through. Even people in the same 500 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:59,639 Speaker 3: Iskan organization who are gurus, some of them don't accept 501 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 3: each other as legitimate. Meanwhile, everyone's supposed to have disciples. Wow. 502 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 3: And so I was grappling with that. Early on. My 503 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 3: brother had already left Iskhan and joined a different sect, 504 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 3: and so there was some of that influence. And then Tripperri, 505 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 3: who ended up becoming my guru. Eventually he was kind 506 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 3: of in my Meliu in Maryland, because he had started 507 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,159 Speaker 3: visiting the East coast giving lectures to a group of 508 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,440 Speaker 3: people that were friends of my mom's, and he had 509 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 3: like a CD ministry, so every month he sent out CDs, 510 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 3: and so like my mom's close friend who often was 511 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 3: at our house, she'd be listening to his CDs. And 512 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:44,680 Speaker 3: so he was kind of around and he was more intellectual, 513 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 3: more progressive, more modern than most of his alternatives, including 514 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 3: things like a lot of Hari Krishna's are against homosexuality, 515 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 3: or gurus will refuse to initiate people, and that stands. 516 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:05,399 Speaker 3: He publicly was fine with that and had gay disciples 517 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 3: and stuff, and so it had these appearances of a 518 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:12,680 Speaker 3: much more modern and intellectual his addition of the bog 519 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 3: of a Gita, rather than being passed out aggressively on 520 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 3: the streets, it was in Barnes and Nobles, put out 521 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 3: by a by a mainstream publisher, right, you know. 522 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 2: Right. 523 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 3: So now, in hindsight, I kind of call it like 524 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 3: Hari Krishna two point zero, because it's not that the 525 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 3: essence was now healthy and modern, it's that the veneer 526 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 3: he was a bit ahead of the curve, right right. 527 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 1: I saw that he owns Swamy dot org which I 528 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 1: was just impressed that he was able to get that. 529 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 2: That's wild, that's some forethought. 530 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 3: This was ahead of the curve. And you know, it's 531 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 3: funny you bring that up because he changed his legal 532 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 3: name to Swami Tripperrari. Someone pointed out to me, like, 533 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 3: that's like a doctor changing their first name to doctor. 534 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 3: It's like identify so strongly with the role, and it's 535 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 3: forcing people who may not even be part of the 536 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 3: belief system to refer to him in this. 537 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 1: Like that is so interesting. Oh my gosh. Now I 538 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 1: want to name a kid doctor just so that they 539 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 1: can become a doctor named doctor doctor. 540 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 2: I don't think they would become a doctor if they 541 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 2: were doctor to. 542 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 3: The bullying would. 543 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, the bullying would really kick them out. 544 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 1: Maybe the kids would be like, you got to listen 545 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: to the doctor. 546 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 2: Because the doctor. You try that experiment. 547 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 1: I feel like you who am I thinking of? I 548 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: feel like there are people all the time where their 549 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 1: name is like rhythm and then they become a freakin drummer. 550 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 1: I don't know it happened. 551 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 3: When I lived in Asheville, North Carolina for two years. 552 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 3: Is like a kind of New Age bastion of the 553 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 3: East coast in some ways. I once ran into someone 554 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 3: who I had just met, like the evening before, and 555 00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 3: it was me and another Harri Christiana friend and we 556 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 3: were like, hold our names again, and this woman responded, 557 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 3: She's like, oh, you guys are totally winning the Ashville 558 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 3: name game. And I'm like, no, I was given this 559 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 3: at birth. 560 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:15,240 Speaker 2: That's funny. Nope, this has been me the whole time. 561 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 2: Were you teased for your name growing up? 562 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 3: I just thought of that not a ton for my 563 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 3: first name a little bit, but my middle name. I 564 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 3: was so embarrassed about that, I just lied. I stole 565 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 3: my best friend's middle name and would say it was mine, 566 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 3: and sometimes he'd be around, and so that didn't work out. 567 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: Well, wait, what's your middle name? 568 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 3: My middle name is Garunga, and so I I used 569 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 3: to say it was Andrew, which was my best friend's 570 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 3: middle name. But also you get away with it because 571 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 3: my last name is Joseph. So there's there was a 572 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,400 Speaker 3: lot of confusion growing up in terms of last name, 573 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 3: first roll call type stuff. 574 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 1: Right, wow, Okay, so you start hearing him on CDs, 575 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 1: that's super interesting, Like how did you first meet him? 576 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 3: Yeah? So I think I decided I did, like, you know, 577 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 3: I still wanted to get more serious, go even further. 578 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 3: I had moved and was living next door to the 579 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 3: local temple in the house that was owned by some 580 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 3: other members, and then I still was like, I want 581 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,479 Speaker 3: to even go further. So there was a family who 582 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 3: had lived in our area who were always kind of 583 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 3: the most you know, straight and narrow church, so to speak. 584 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 3: And they were living in North Carolina, and they were 585 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 3: the ones who had initially brought him to the East Coast, 586 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 3: and so I went to stay with them for like 587 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 3: a month, just like get totally out of my context. 588 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 3: I stopped communicating with all my friends. And at the 589 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 3: end of that month, Tripperari was coming to visit and 590 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 3: give a series of lectures as he would do periodically, 591 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 3: so I wanted to meet him and be there for 592 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,840 Speaker 3: those lectures as well. So the first time I met 593 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 3: him was actually in Asheville, where I moved years and 594 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 3: years later, but we drove there for the night because 595 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 3: he was giving a talk at a yoga studio. You know, 596 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 3: we interacted some in those few days he was there, 597 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 3: but it wasn't necessarily I told him I was going 598 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 3: out to California for something else, and he invited me 599 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,719 Speaker 3: to come visit the monastery, but it was kind of 600 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 3: like neither here nor there. I was participating on an 601 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 3: online forum that he had back in the day of forums, 602 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 3: and what ultimately made me move out there was I 603 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 3: had found an online controversy between him and another swami 604 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 3: in the mix, and I had previously liked both of 605 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 3: them and their lectures, and I was like, well, shit, 606 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:32,920 Speaker 3: like where I don't know where to land on this 607 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 3: because they dislike each other strongly, And so I posted 608 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,480 Speaker 3: in this forum about some of this confusion and tension, 609 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,880 Speaker 3: and you know, he saw I think, you know, it's like, 610 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 3: oh shit, better you better act fast or you might 611 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 3: lose this person. He had already tried to recruit my 612 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 3: brother unsuccessfully, I should mention, and he knew my mom 613 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 3: because he had been coming and giving lectures locally, and 614 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 3: my mom was a little suspect of him but also 615 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 3: liked him. So anyway, he basically said, you know, I 616 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 3: could answer your your question and confusion, but really far 617 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 3: better to understand it would be like, you know, you 618 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 3: come out here and spend time with the monastery. 619 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 1: Of course, right this maybe isn't important, but just out 620 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: of curiosity. Is he white? I can't tell what ethnicity is. 621 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,960 Speaker 3: That's funny, he said, Yeah, he is oftentan, you know. 622 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,720 Speaker 3: And also I like too, because I mentioned he changed 623 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 3: his legal name to his title. I like to call 624 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 3: him Tom, which was his birth name, and just kind 625 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 3: of nice make him the child that he is once again. 626 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, right, he is Tom. 627 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 1: So interesting the number of random white guys who become 628 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 1: gurus two people like, how does that does? How does 629 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 1: that happen? 630 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean the whole like cultural appropriate, like all 631 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 3: that angle was completely absent from awareness. Yeah, and in 632 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 3: the days leading up, I mean, among them at least now. 633 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 3: The absurdity to me of this dude who was born 634 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:09,200 Speaker 3: in New Jersey, you know, wearing Indian loincloth and reciting 635 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 3: secret and telling anybody who will listen what the best 636 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 3: use of their. 637 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 2: Life is, right children, unreal? 638 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, oh my gosh. 639 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:22,399 Speaker 2: And he buys his them bullshit hard right. 640 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's actually I'll touch on that. A big question, 641 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:27,279 Speaker 3: you know, you hear it all the time, is like 642 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:29,839 Speaker 3: are they a con artist or do they believe? And 643 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 3: I think, by and large, in my experience and observation, 644 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 3: in my own situation and others, it's it's the in 645 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 3: between where they believe the cause, they believe the grand narrative, 646 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 3: but they also are not oblivious to the fact that 647 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 3: they're acting like horrible people, manipulating and cajole. They're not 648 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:52,799 Speaker 3: oblivious to the fact that the person they just counseled 649 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 3: is more confused and dejected than when they came in 650 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,360 Speaker 3: the room. You know, it's a it's an ends justifies 651 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 3: the means, right, So it's not like you're exonerated or 652 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,640 Speaker 3: you're just guilty. I think he really believes the stuff. 653 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:11,359 Speaker 3: I was his personal servant, as we called it. I 654 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:16,719 Speaker 3: saw in all sorts of candidate off off stage moments. 655 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:21,400 Speaker 3: I have access to his email and Internet history and everything, 656 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:23,400 Speaker 3: And I think a true believer. 657 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 1: I really always want to like nail it down, like 658 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:27,879 Speaker 1: do they believe or do they not? But I think, 659 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 1: as with all answers to most things in life, like 660 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 1: it's somewhere in the middle, you. 661 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,359 Speaker 3: Know, yeah, and then there are pure Charlatans out there. 662 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:37,359 Speaker 1: But I think, of course, of course. 663 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,239 Speaker 3: Especially if you're leading a group, it is a full 664 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:45,360 Speaker 3: time job. You have to have some innate pathological drive 665 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:50,359 Speaker 3: to meddle in other people's lives from the moment you 666 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 3: wake up to the moment you go to sleep, day 667 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,759 Speaker 3: after day after it's exhausted. 668 00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:00,399 Speaker 1: Oh my god, I know I can't, like, who would 669 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 1: want that? Seems like so much work. You're so right, Okay, 670 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,040 Speaker 1: tell us how you went from this to like really 671 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 1: fully committing to this guru. 672 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 3: I decided I would move out there temporarily. I wasn't 673 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:16,279 Speaker 3: sure if I believed in him. I wasn't sure if 674 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 3: he was gonna be my guru. There were some rumors 675 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:23,880 Speaker 3: online about maybe an inappropriate relationship he had within a 676 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:28,719 Speaker 3: woman in the group. Inappropriate meaning like abusive power, but 677 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 3: also by hary Krishna's standards, what inappropriate means is he's 678 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:35,480 Speaker 3: about Swami. So like, you know, the traditional standard is 679 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:37,440 Speaker 3: like you're not even alone in a room with a woman, 680 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,720 Speaker 3: and oh shit, you'll see this in like some Buddhist monks, 681 00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 3: like they travel in two's, so like there's no oh 682 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:46,440 Speaker 3: like chance, like and. 683 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,000 Speaker 1: Mormon Mormon, right, yeah, yeah, yeah. 684 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:50,840 Speaker 3: So I went out there, and you know it's like 685 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,800 Speaker 3: then where I'm staying is on a twenty five acre 686 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 3: property off grid in the Redwoods on solar power, living 687 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:01,799 Speaker 3: in a yurt. So if you wanted, you know, a 688 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:08,880 Speaker 3: conducive environment to changing someone's priorities, that was it, you know. 689 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,319 Speaker 3: And so I was there, And at first I only 690 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,640 Speaker 3: referred to him as Swamy. So disciples have a different 691 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 3: phrase that they kind of tend to call him. But 692 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 3: I wasn't sure that I was on board yet, So 693 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:22,279 Speaker 3: like I was referring to him as Swammy. But when 694 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,920 Speaker 3: you're day in, day out in an environment of twelve 695 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,959 Speaker 3: people and you're the only one even referring to him 696 00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 3: in the less reverential. 697 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:34,960 Speaker 1: Form, that pressure, yeah. 698 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:35,920 Speaker 3: Was unspoken. 699 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:37,319 Speaker 2: Home. 700 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:41,239 Speaker 3: And so I don't remember when I concluded I was 701 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:43,799 Speaker 3: fully on board. I think maybe he actually was in 702 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:48,280 Speaker 3: Europe speaking and I like wrote him this long email 703 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 3: like you know, whatever pouring. Also, if you do come around, 704 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:57,000 Speaker 3: your initial reservation and doubt becomes like this huge source 705 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,200 Speaker 3: of shame. And so it's like, oh, you know, like 706 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:03,400 Speaker 3: I came here with this fault finding, which is a 707 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,360 Speaker 3: phrase of THEIRS mentality, and you know you were so 708 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:10,319 Speaker 3: patient with me and did whatever it may be, and like, 709 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:13,920 Speaker 3: you know, now I've come around. And so then I 710 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,719 Speaker 3: received there's like two initiations typically, and I received the 711 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 3: first one, and then he brought me traveling with him 712 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,120 Speaker 3: and his one other main disciple, who was a woman, 713 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 3: and it wouldn't be appropriate for them to travel just 714 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,359 Speaker 3: the two of them, but I had access to some 715 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,440 Speaker 3: funds to pay for my own travel, so that was convenience. 716 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,440 Speaker 3: So I ended up within the first six months I 717 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:39,880 Speaker 3: was there. We then went to North Carolina to India 718 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 3: for two weeks, which was like a grueling, sleep deprived experience, 719 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:50,040 Speaker 3: and then not too long after to the complete isolated, 720 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:53,920 Speaker 3: undeveloped jungle of Costa Rica, where we bought one hundred 721 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:58,480 Speaker 3: and twenty five raw acres. And so within my first 722 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,800 Speaker 3: year I spent four or months living in a camping 723 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:07,239 Speaker 3: tent with no internet in the jungle of Costa Rica. 724 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:08,880 Speaker 3: So I was wrong before when I said, if you 725 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:13,839 Speaker 3: want a conducive environment, that one was even more. 726 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,320 Speaker 1: What was happening where it was like a compound being built, 727 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:19,200 Speaker 1: Like what were you doing? 728 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:21,239 Speaker 3: I mean, partly it's just you know, these people are 729 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,759 Speaker 3: delusional and want to pursue their whims, and so this 730 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:28,440 Speaker 3: property was bought. We were down there. Yeah, there was 731 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,200 Speaker 3: like roads being put in and buildings being built. We 732 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:35,279 Speaker 3: set up a micro hydro power system. It was just 733 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:39,280 Speaker 3: like raw from scratch. But that time really did serve 734 00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:45,160 Speaker 3: as this extreme kind of corrective period for me, specifically 735 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:49,279 Speaker 3: because I came in sincere not thinking this is just 736 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:53,840 Speaker 3: an oppressive regime, and so I would openly disagree with things, 737 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:57,320 Speaker 3: or i'd if I thought something was a bad idea, 738 00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,640 Speaker 3: or if it seemed daunting to me personally, I might 739 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:04,319 Speaker 3: like have So so the period in Costa Rico was 740 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,759 Speaker 3: like a very concerted like we are going to you 741 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:12,000 Speaker 3: know kind of beat not physically, but like you know, 742 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:14,880 Speaker 3: like beat the autonomy out of you. And and the 743 00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:18,520 Speaker 3: second in command, the one who was a woman, really 744 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,720 Speaker 3: filled the function often in the group for many people 745 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,319 Speaker 3: of like bad cop. And so she'd be the one 746 00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:29,000 Speaker 3: like like, you know, telling me what was wrong with 747 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,399 Speaker 3: me because of my childhood and because of all and 748 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:34,400 Speaker 3: in all the ways I was deeply intrinsically flawed. And 749 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:36,239 Speaker 3: then the guru would be the one who was like 750 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,719 Speaker 3: a little milder and would offer some some comfort in 751 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,719 Speaker 3: juxtaposition to that. And so I came back from that 752 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:48,160 Speaker 3: trip like I had learned like say yes even if 753 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:53,160 Speaker 3: you disagree, for one and I was, you know, roundly 754 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:59,280 Speaker 3: rewarded and encouraged for that change and given roles additional 755 00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:03,080 Speaker 3: roles of leadership. Then and second initiation. 756 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:06,600 Speaker 1: Followed that once you were compliant and agreeable and right, 757 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,360 Speaker 1: what was like the goal that everyone had in their heads, 758 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:12,799 Speaker 1: like building this compound? Like what what's this? 759 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:13,600 Speaker 2: What's the point? 760 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:14,400 Speaker 1: Yeah? 761 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,920 Speaker 3: I think a delusional sense of potential influence? 762 00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:20,319 Speaker 2: Right for one. 763 00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:22,759 Speaker 3: So the I mean the core notion, any sort of 764 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:28,200 Speaker 3: evangelical proselytizing faith that that I consider another kind of 765 00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:33,080 Speaker 3: real core vulnerability to cultic dynamics, because if inherent to 766 00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:38,280 Speaker 3: your system of your own spiritual evolution is preaching to others, 767 00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 3: that just kind of corrupts the whole affair, and our 768 00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:46,799 Speaker 3: considerations start to loom larger and larger. They are like 769 00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:50,719 Speaker 3: this kid in the community was abused. That's bad, But 770 00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:53,760 Speaker 3: is that worse than the loss of faith and the 771 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:57,759 Speaker 3: fallout that will face publicly if this comes to light? 772 00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:02,240 Speaker 3: And so I think the the proselytizing is a problem. 773 00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:04,920 Speaker 3: And I think, you know, in some aspects of Judaism, 774 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,560 Speaker 3: I think you have some Mellower dynamics, and that may 775 00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:11,560 Speaker 3: be one of the reasons, because they're not trying to 776 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:12,560 Speaker 3: bring people in. 777 00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:15,400 Speaker 1: In mass you know, that's really interesting. Yeah, when it 778 00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:19,920 Speaker 1: becomes about managing other people's perception, and that. 779 00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,080 Speaker 3: Was always the emphasis in Hari Krishna from that. That's 780 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:28,280 Speaker 3: why my spent years in airports selling Harry Krishna books 781 00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:32,200 Speaker 3: to like Muhammad Ali, Elizabeth Taylor, like all the Harry 782 00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:35,280 Speaker 3: Christians have these stories of like famous people they encountered, 783 00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:37,600 Speaker 3: of course when they were harassing everyone. 784 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:43,040 Speaker 1: Wow, so you're in the freaking jungle, Like were you 785 00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,440 Speaker 1: unhappy or did you still have some sense of meaning 786 00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,120 Speaker 1: that was keeping you feeling okay? 787 00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:49,319 Speaker 2: Like? 788 00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:52,320 Speaker 1: What was it? What was the emotional experience of that period? 789 00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:56,200 Speaker 3: The jungle period was super intense because it's the it's 790 00:42:56,239 --> 00:43:01,520 Speaker 3: the period of like, I still have my own identity 791 00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:05,120 Speaker 3: and sense of things, and I'm being made as like 792 00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 3: yan Yilolitch puts it into, like a deployable agent, you know, 793 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:12,239 Speaker 3: and so that that tension is real palpable. Later on 794 00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:16,160 Speaker 3: things eased up and really over time and over feeling 795 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:20,120 Speaker 3: responsible for the organization. Then it got to the point, 796 00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:23,600 Speaker 3: I like to say, where like the truest feelings that 797 00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:26,759 Speaker 3: I had any contact with were the ones that I 798 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:29,480 Speaker 3: had been taught to have for the reason, so like 799 00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:34,120 Speaker 3: I derived genuine pleasure from serving the cause as far 800 00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:36,200 Speaker 3: as I could tell. And I think that's what a 801 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:40,640 Speaker 3: lot of people WOW don't understand. Is Like I when 802 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,600 Speaker 3: I had my first girlfriend after the monastery, I was 803 00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:46,480 Speaker 3: still a believer at the time and she wasn't a member, 804 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,160 Speaker 3: and I remember her asking me like what I wanted 805 00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:52,600 Speaker 3: to do, and it was like short circuit, like question 806 00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:57,400 Speaker 3: doesn't compute. What are you talking about? Like ordinated my 807 00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:01,120 Speaker 3: desires to those of the. 808 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:04,120 Speaker 2: WOW right and you weren't really aware of it at 809 00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:04,560 Speaker 2: the time. 810 00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:07,160 Speaker 3: I think I was. I mean, that was like auded. 811 00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:10,600 Speaker 3: That was the goal. You know, we talked about beyond 812 00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:14,440 Speaker 3: self sacrifice to self forgetfulness is like a. 813 00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:16,680 Speaker 2: You know, like yes, right. 814 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:19,880 Speaker 1: Normally in cultic groups that I feel like that's hidden, 815 00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:21,680 Speaker 1: like they don't want you to know that that's what 816 00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:22,120 Speaker 1: you're doing. 817 00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:24,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, but you guys are just saying it out right, 818 00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:27,719 Speaker 2: like be dead inside. It's better for us. 819 00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:31,360 Speaker 3: I mean, there was notions of divine slavery like like actually, 820 00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:33,920 Speaker 3: this is important to touch on because I talk about 821 00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:37,799 Speaker 3: like personal servant, but really and I did a presentation 822 00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:42,120 Speaker 3: with Christine on human trafficking in cults in relation to cults. 823 00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:45,960 Speaker 3: Hary Krishnan is when they receive their name. There's an 824 00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:48,800 Speaker 3: epithet that all people get, which is dos or dossi, 825 00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,920 Speaker 3: which is male and female. I always thought that meant servant. 826 00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:56,560 Speaker 3: It also means slave likes for dictionary. So even your 827 00:44:56,640 --> 00:45:00,880 Speaker 3: name is not your name, your name is referring to 828 00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:04,120 Speaker 3: some form of God or some principle. And so your 829 00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:09,279 Speaker 3: name is slave to Xyznti. 830 00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:10,560 Speaker 1: Is the name of Oh, someone. 831 00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:12,920 Speaker 3: They believe is like a form of God from Bengal 832 00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:15,600 Speaker 3: in the fifteen hundreds. So really my name is like 833 00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:20,000 Speaker 3: servant slash slave Tu Nittai. My mom's name was like 834 00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:25,239 Speaker 3: servant slash slave to the literal translation the friend of 835 00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:27,960 Speaker 3: the cows, which is a name for Krishna. Wow. 836 00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:28,759 Speaker 1: Wow. 837 00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:34,080 Speaker 3: And so that's how deep rooted. The disinterest in your 838 00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:35,840 Speaker 3: identity is Lilla. 839 00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:38,279 Speaker 2: This is so similar to how I was raised. It 840 00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:39,600 Speaker 2: is really so weird. 841 00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:41,040 Speaker 1: Really, that's so interesting. 842 00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:43,799 Speaker 2: I mean, you are taught there is nothing in this 843 00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:45,920 Speaker 2: life for you. It is a blink of an eye. 844 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:50,719 Speaker 2: It's a joke. It's a literal farce to confuse you 845 00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:56,320 Speaker 2: into caring about it. And if you if you given, 846 00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:59,400 Speaker 2: then you will be in hell forever. But if you 847 00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:01,440 Speaker 2: just like, oh, this is stupid, I don't care at all, 848 00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:04,279 Speaker 2: and can completely turn yourself off to it, then you win. 849 00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:10,440 Speaker 3: Interesting sounds, very relatable, and so nothing. Yeah, I call 850 00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:14,000 Speaker 3: it like absolute relevance. Everything that's not that just has 851 00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:18,240 Speaker 3: some like limited nothing kind of illusion based sense of relevance, 852 00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:23,440 Speaker 3: like you're saying, and there's only one thing that truly matters, right, exactly. 853 00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:26,359 Speaker 1: Yeah. One of my best friends grew up job as 854 00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:30,040 Speaker 1: witness and in his particular community, he had to quit sports. 855 00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:32,880 Speaker 1: They couldn't vote, they couldn't advance their jobs. They literally 856 00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:35,480 Speaker 1: like could not do anything that brought them pleasure or 857 00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:36,399 Speaker 1: meaning at all. 858 00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:39,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, yep. And sometimes for them it's also like Armageddon's 859 00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:41,280 Speaker 3: around the corner, so don't invest. 860 00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,240 Speaker 1: Your time exactly the same exactly. 861 00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:45,839 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, and even now I wonder how hard 862 00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:47,759 Speaker 2: you're dealing with this, But it was really hard to 863 00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:49,960 Speaker 2: like be taught that and then go to school and 864 00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:52,160 Speaker 2: they're like, and this is math, and I'm like, I 865 00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:56,800 Speaker 2: don't care about math. What the world's gonna end tomorrow? 866 00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:59,279 Speaker 2: Like I don't care about any of this, Like the 867 00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:01,680 Speaker 2: world's ending tomorrow. Jesus is coming back to the earth. 868 00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:04,839 Speaker 2: I'm very stressed out. I can't concentrate on this right now. 869 00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:08,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't relate to that because again I wasn't 870 00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:12,720 Speaker 3: even like well aware of the tenants at a young age. 871 00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:16,319 Speaker 3: So like in my mind, school was almost more influential 872 00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:19,160 Speaker 3: when I was you know, say, seven eight nine. My 873 00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:22,400 Speaker 3: mind was like, oh, science is how you know what's what? 874 00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:22,919 Speaker 2: Right? 875 00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:26,440 Speaker 3: This is kind of simple. When I first actually started 876 00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:31,080 Speaker 3: believing was when I thought someone that I knew. I 877 00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:33,920 Speaker 3: thought there was going to be an altercation with some 878 00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:36,600 Speaker 3: friends of mine and some strangers where someone was going 879 00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:40,319 Speaker 3: to kill someone. And I was like, I'm not going 880 00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:44,440 Speaker 3: anywhere near that situation, And I started chanting because in 881 00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:47,760 Speaker 3: hiy Krishna belief, if you remember Krishna at the moment 882 00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:50,040 Speaker 3: of death, you might win the game even if you 883 00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:53,480 Speaker 3: weren't great all along. Oh wow, So growing up, your 884 00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:55,320 Speaker 3: parents will always say, you know, if you ever feel 885 00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:58,000 Speaker 3: like you're in danger or you know, you chan't. And 886 00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:00,520 Speaker 3: so while I hadn't been like consciously in gauging with 887 00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:03,320 Speaker 3: any of that stuff, I found myself in this situation 888 00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:05,920 Speaker 3: one night where I thought someone was going to like 889 00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:10,520 Speaker 3: try to kill someone over some pot and I found myself, 890 00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:14,120 Speaker 3: you know, hanging back and chanting, and none of it 891 00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:17,560 Speaker 3: escalated like that. It was all, you know, probably dudes posturing, 892 00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:21,640 Speaker 3: but that stuck with me as almost like a sign 893 00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:26,040 Speaker 3: or yeah, like something beyond myself was related to that, right, 894 00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:26,720 Speaker 3: It's funny. 895 00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:29,840 Speaker 2: Well, I was just gonna say, is it sad that 896 00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:32,560 Speaker 2: I just tuck stuff like that. I'm so superstitious from 897 00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:34,440 Speaker 2: being raised in a cult. I'm like, oh, if I 898 00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:36,680 Speaker 2: will chant that while I died, just in case. 899 00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:40,560 Speaker 3: Like no, I mean, I just just don't survive and 900 00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:43,040 Speaker 3: then join a monastery right time. 901 00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:47,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I thought you were just supposed to say, in 902 00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:49,319 Speaker 1: the name of Jesus Christ, I command you to leave 903 00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:53,080 Speaker 1: anytime you felt an evil presence around you, which could 904 00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:54,280 Speaker 1: be anytime. 905 00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:56,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow, that's a good one, but not at. 906 00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:58,080 Speaker 1: The moment of death. But unless there's evil around you 907 00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:00,919 Speaker 1: at death, I guess listen, we've got chance, We've got 908 00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:02,280 Speaker 1: things to repeat. 909 00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:03,439 Speaker 2: There's some stuff to say. 910 00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:07,400 Speaker 1: Okay, so you're traveling around, you got deeper in with 911 00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:11,799 Speaker 1: this guy, and you've talked about being labor exploited. Can 912 00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:13,560 Speaker 1: you just touch on that a little bit? 913 00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:18,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. It was years until I was doing 914 00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:21,640 Speaker 3: my master's degree and I was in a special session 915 00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:26,080 Speaker 3: on modern slavery and human trafficking with a guest presenter 916 00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:31,480 Speaker 3: learning what those contemporary definitions are. And I'm sitting in 917 00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:35,839 Speaker 3: the back of this class like, holy shit, Like not 918 00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:39,160 Speaker 3: only did I experience some of this, but like every 919 00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:45,640 Speaker 3: adult caregiver I knew growing up experienced much more extreme 920 00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:49,680 Speaker 3: versions of this labor trafficking and exploitation. So to be 921 00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:51,920 Speaker 3: more specific, you know, I'm gonna be rusty on the 922 00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:57,200 Speaker 3: specific definitions, but there's basically a pattern of exploitation as 923 00:49:57,200 --> 00:49:59,440 Speaker 3: a means to it and a financial end. In this 924 00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:03,160 Speaker 3: case that involves coercion et cetera, et cetera. And so 925 00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:05,760 Speaker 3: for me, that took the form later on in the group. 926 00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:08,360 Speaker 3: A lot of cults get involved if they're small and 927 00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:11,840 Speaker 3: like these fly by night businesses, because they're not looking 928 00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:14,200 Speaker 3: to put a lot of money up up front. They 929 00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:16,080 Speaker 3: might not have a lot of money. What they have 930 00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:22,120 Speaker 3: is slave labor, quite literally. So we started working out 931 00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:25,200 Speaker 3: on the road selling bed sheets and pillows at state fairs, 932 00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:29,480 Speaker 3: like if you guys know, like Pomona. I worked Pomona for. 933 00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:31,760 Speaker 1: A month and oh wow. 934 00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:33,480 Speaker 3: You kept no money you know, you stay in the 935 00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:36,040 Speaker 3: cheapest hotel you can find. I did San Antonio for 936 00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:38,920 Speaker 3: three weeks. I got bed bugs staying in a hotel 937 00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:40,120 Speaker 3: that has since been shut down. 938 00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:40,719 Speaker 2: Oh my god. 939 00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:45,120 Speaker 3: I represented about that when I did this panel on trafficking. 940 00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:48,240 Speaker 3: And so there was just a system of a number 941 00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:53,200 Speaker 3: of us going out and selling these products for some 942 00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:55,400 Speaker 3: guys that owned a business and keeping none of it 943 00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:58,759 Speaker 3: eating as austerely as possible. And really what drove it 944 00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:02,400 Speaker 3: home later was like, Yeah, the hotel I was staying 945 00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:05,640 Speaker 3: in in San Antonio, for example, Like next to me 946 00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:09,799 Speaker 3: were people being sexually trafficked and exploited and people who 947 00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:13,000 Speaker 3: were living there and doing drugs and like that was 948 00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:19,440 Speaker 3: the environment I was in. And I, on one hand, 949 00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:22,359 Speaker 3: looked very different than all of that, but that's what 950 00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:29,160 Speaker 3: was ultimately occurring. And I wonder about nonprofit laws related 951 00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:32,520 Speaker 3: to volunteer and labor and things like that if that 952 00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:37,080 Speaker 3: effectively creates a loophole for what would in other settings 953 00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:43,200 Speaker 3: be like actionable labor exploitation. So there's that, and then 954 00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:47,959 Speaker 3: also what drove this home was attending a few bits 955 00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:51,760 Speaker 3: of the Nexium trial, I in person went oh wow, 956 00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:54,120 Speaker 3: because I was living in New York City, and I'm 957 00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:56,719 Speaker 3: friends with some of the people involved in that situation, 958 00:51:56,800 --> 00:52:00,560 Speaker 3: and they invited me to come watch the trial for 959 00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:02,640 Speaker 3: a few days, and so I was listening to closing 960 00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:05,480 Speaker 3: arguments and I was like, oh shit, I did that. 961 00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:08,400 Speaker 3: You know, it was specifically around stuff around racketeering. So 962 00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:10,560 Speaker 3: I also it took me a long time to learn 963 00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:13,359 Speaker 3: what racketeering is. You hear it all the time, and 964 00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:18,920 Speaker 3: it's a pattern of criminality and small crimes that occur 965 00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:22,160 Speaker 3: within a defined period of time for the benefit of 966 00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:25,399 Speaker 3: an enterprise as opposed to an individual. And so there's 967 00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:29,080 Speaker 3: thirty five hearing crimes. And what I like in it too, 968 00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:32,359 Speaker 3: is like corner cutting. When you think you're above the law, 969 00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:36,359 Speaker 3: you start cutting corners. And so a racketeering charge, if 970 00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:39,160 Speaker 3: I remember correctly, only requires two of these, and it's 971 00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:43,120 Speaker 3: things like trafficking, identity theft. So we would do things 972 00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:46,799 Speaker 3: like forge flight documents to you had to like leave 973 00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:50,040 Speaker 3: Costa Rica into Nicaragua and claim that you were flying 974 00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:52,640 Speaker 3: out to renew your visa, and then you come back 975 00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:54,319 Speaker 3: in you show this like fake, oh yeah, I have 976 00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:57,080 Speaker 3: a flight out, but you didn't really stuff like that, 977 00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:00,239 Speaker 3: you know, the Guru had me log into another their 978 00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:04,160 Speaker 3: member's email account because there was some stuff going on 979 00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:06,920 Speaker 3: and he was concerned about it. And I didn't know 980 00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:09,440 Speaker 3: that was like a form of identity theft later on 981 00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:15,920 Speaker 3: or illegal construction. So you know, that recast the fact 982 00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:19,799 Speaker 3: that almost all of us were living in these illegal 983 00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:27,160 Speaker 3: buildings in the middle of nowhere, like a labor exploited 984 00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:29,799 Speaker 3: farm worker might be, you know, like living in a 985 00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:34,640 Speaker 3: shack and misled, and so that was a big kind 986 00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:37,840 Speaker 3: of piece to put together, you know, years after, Yeah, 987 00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:42,080 Speaker 3: it was after being involved in cold recovery work, and 988 00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:44,279 Speaker 3: so I'm pretty passionate. I've been happy to see more 989 00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:47,840 Speaker 3: people talking about that angle in relation to cults, but 990 00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:52,360 Speaker 3: I really do want to dive in in the future 991 00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:55,279 Speaker 3: to understand are there legal loopholes here or is there 992 00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:58,000 Speaker 3: some system for accountability too. 993 00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:01,200 Speaker 1: Did you have a separate job or was your life 994 00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:02,680 Speaker 1: just like fully devoted to the group. 995 00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:05,400 Speaker 3: You know, we considered ourselves monks, which is like the 996 00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:09,880 Speaker 3: utmost of commitment. And so not only did I not 997 00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:13,000 Speaker 3: have a separate job, I worked, I kept no money, 998 00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:15,520 Speaker 3: I didn't work outside, but like like we sold raw 999 00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:18,360 Speaker 3: milk at one point, which you can charge fifteen dollars 1000 00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:19,600 Speaker 3: a gallon in northern California. 1001 00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:22,640 Speaker 1: I do love raw milk, you know. 1002 00:54:22,719 --> 00:54:25,240 Speaker 3: So I was doing various things that brought in money. 1003 00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:28,400 Speaker 3: And yeah, the Guru had set up in the first 1004 00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:33,040 Speaker 3: year this scheme for draining my college fund. And so 1005 00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:38,719 Speaker 3: month after month I'm paying into a system of exploitation 1006 00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:43,920 Speaker 3: what to speak of receiving money and so purely referring 1007 00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:46,480 Speaker 3: to like funds that were in an account of mine 1008 00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:50,640 Speaker 3: that ended up there, setting aside all the labor exploitation 1009 00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:53,360 Speaker 3: and things like that, that was around one hundred and 1010 00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:55,320 Speaker 3: twenty thousand dollars over seven years. 1011 00:54:56,239 --> 00:55:00,360 Speaker 1: And was it going to like his account who was 1012 00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:02,799 Speaker 1: in charge of taking people some money like that? 1013 00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:05,400 Speaker 3: Well, this gets back to a little bit like the 1014 00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:09,040 Speaker 3: true believer versus not question. And so it wasn't being 1015 00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:12,000 Speaker 3: stock I was a signer on the bank account even 1016 00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:15,560 Speaker 3: for a while after I left it. It wasn't being 1017 00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:19,960 Speaker 3: like stockpiled somewhere. He wasn't living lavishly. He would live 1018 00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:23,200 Speaker 3: better than the rest of us, you know. So when 1019 00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:26,359 Speaker 3: it's slim pickens through the winter from the garden and 1020 00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:29,719 Speaker 3: we're eating like very austerely, he was still getting stuff 1021 00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:33,000 Speaker 3: from the grocery store. But by and large he's an 1022 00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:37,759 Speaker 3: awful businessman, and so like the money wasn't stacking up anywhere, 1023 00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:40,319 Speaker 3: it was there, right, And actually since I left, And 1024 00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:42,560 Speaker 3: I like to take partial credit for this, me and 1025 00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:46,440 Speaker 3: a good friend of mine, because all their three properties 1026 00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:50,840 Speaker 3: when I left had loans on them. One has since 1027 00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:53,960 Speaker 3: been sold and one has been attempted to be sold 1028 00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:56,480 Speaker 3: for a long time. But I'm like, when I found 1029 00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:58,560 Speaker 3: out it was listed, I was like, literally the only 1030 00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:02,160 Speaker 3: person who this property would appeal to as another cult, 1031 00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:08,320 Speaker 3: Like there's property so fundamentally and relied on free labor 1032 00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:11,959 Speaker 3: that like, there's no viable business there and. 1033 00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:13,400 Speaker 2: It's not a right. 1034 00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:14,800 Speaker 1: Where was that one. 1035 00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:16,600 Speaker 3: That's in Mendocino County? 1036 00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:17,840 Speaker 1: Oh? Interesting? 1037 00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:20,080 Speaker 3: That was where I was based most of my almost 1038 00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:22,120 Speaker 3: seven years of devout involvement. 1039 00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:24,520 Speaker 1: Got it? And you were living in a shack at 1040 00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:28,280 Speaker 1: that time, living in a mostly a yurt, Wow. 1041 00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:32,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, mostly in a tent in Costa Rica, occasionally an 1042 00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:34,880 Speaker 3: indoor a room in a proper building. 1043 00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:35,560 Speaker 2: Wow. 1044 00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:38,600 Speaker 3: In a fair bit of traveling too, especially when I 1045 00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:43,840 Speaker 3: was his servant quote unquote, because I accompany him wherever 1046 00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:46,960 Speaker 3: he was being invited to spew his problem. 1047 00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:53,560 Speaker 1: When did you start feeling weird about it all? 1048 00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:58,640 Speaker 3: That's a good question. I probably gradual. There were periods where, 1049 00:56:58,760 --> 00:57:01,400 Speaker 3: you know, once we got coach Rica property, there was 1050 00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:03,400 Speaker 3: a whole winter where there was just two of us 1051 00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:06,880 Speaker 3: on the California property responsible for everything. And that's like 1052 00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:11,600 Speaker 3: a daily routine of ritual worship. That's fifteen cows and 1053 00:57:11,600 --> 00:57:14,840 Speaker 3: they're shitting piss on a very small amount of property, 1054 00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:19,600 Speaker 3: pick it up regularly, that's gardens, et cetera. I was like, wow, 1055 00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:24,520 Speaker 3: depressed at times, not attaching that label to it, but 1056 00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:27,600 Speaker 3: it was just like when I wasn't absolutely having to deliver, 1057 00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:31,800 Speaker 3: I was like wanting to lay down. And plus you 1058 00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:35,400 Speaker 3: just threaded through all this is sleep deprivation all along. 1059 00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:38,400 Speaker 3: I fell asleep at the wheels so many times in 1060 00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:41,280 Speaker 3: those years, ay sit like other people had to grab 1061 00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:44,400 Speaker 3: the wheel, popped a tire on the guard rail, hauling 1062 00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:46,320 Speaker 3: a rail while falling asleep. 1063 00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:49,640 Speaker 2: My gosh, wow, So what time like, what were your 1064 00:57:49,640 --> 00:57:50,640 Speaker 2: sleep schedules like? 1065 00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:53,080 Speaker 3: For me? One of the reasons I was worse than 1066 00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:55,880 Speaker 3: others is because like the night was like the only 1067 00:57:55,920 --> 00:57:58,400 Speaker 3: time where you ended up then having some freedom to 1068 00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:01,360 Speaker 3: like think or we did have computers and stuff, so 1069 00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:04,400 Speaker 3: I'd be online or whatever. And then later I got 1070 00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:07,960 Speaker 3: back into like streaming movies and stuff, and so yeah, 1071 00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:12,800 Speaker 3: years of not watching media. I remember I start somehow. 1072 00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:15,680 Speaker 3: I was at a congregation member's house and I saw 1073 00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:18,960 Speaker 3: an episode of twenty four and this of that was 1074 00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:22,000 Speaker 3: like the gripping plot twist. So you watch the next episode, 1075 00:58:22,520 --> 00:58:24,520 Speaker 3: and it got me. I was like this is so 1076 00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:28,480 Speaker 3: and so like I was up for like weeks at 1077 00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:31,120 Speaker 3: night like watching There was like seasons at this point, 1078 00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:33,680 Speaker 3: and I'd like go to the morning rituals at five 1079 00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:38,240 Speaker 3: am and be like preoccupied with like terrorist plots and 1080 00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:42,720 Speaker 3: things like that. So there was these points of not 1081 00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:48,840 Speaker 3: fitting maybe along the way when it really started to accumulate. 1082 00:58:49,160 --> 00:58:51,560 Speaker 3: I mean one of the things was eventually I secretly, 1083 00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:55,080 Speaker 3: like I was in Maryland visiting my mom who was 1084 00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:58,520 Speaker 3: on hospice care, and I like secretly met a woman 1085 00:58:58,560 --> 00:59:03,680 Speaker 3: online and like when had sex lost my virginity was 1086 00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:06,280 Speaker 3: a monk who thought I might be a virgin life. Oh, 1087 00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:09,280 Speaker 3: I see, all right, that's done, Like move back to 1088 00:59:09,320 --> 00:59:12,240 Speaker 3: the monastery, move on. And then later I was like 1089 00:59:12,240 --> 00:59:14,520 Speaker 3: on the road again, et cetera. So at a point 1090 00:59:14,520 --> 00:59:17,320 Speaker 3: I had like an okay cubid profile while I was 1091 00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:22,600 Speaker 3: this prominent monk wow the organization and so what ultimately 1092 00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:28,520 Speaker 3: caused me to leave not the belief but the monastic involvement, 1093 00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:32,400 Speaker 3: was like the realization that I wanted the ability to 1094 00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:35,920 Speaker 3: have a more substantive connection, and because I was living 1095 00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:39,560 Speaker 3: a double life, any connection I did have with anyone 1096 00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:42,640 Speaker 3: was inherently like, this is not going to go anywhere, 1097 00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:46,520 Speaker 3: because I wasn't open to anything going anywhere because I 1098 00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:49,600 Speaker 3: had this whole other persona that was at risk, you know, 1099 00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:53,600 Speaker 3: And I hated that. I hated that like hypocrisy of 1100 00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:57,360 Speaker 3: that feeling because as the leader's servant, people assume you're 1101 00:59:57,880 --> 01:00:03,040 Speaker 3: X y Z of spiritual And so it was actually 1102 01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:06,320 Speaker 3: when I was working Pomona that I knew I couldn't 1103 01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:09,840 Speaker 3: even tell him in person because he works in mind fuckery. 1104 01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:13,120 Speaker 3: And so in the month leading up to my time 1105 01:00:13,160 --> 01:00:16,880 Speaker 3: at Pomona, I started crafting this letter to basically say 1106 01:00:16,920 --> 01:00:19,520 Speaker 3: that I didn't think I should be a monk anymore, 1107 01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:23,520 Speaker 3: and really framing it largely in relation to being freed 1108 01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:26,200 Speaker 3: up to pursue a relationship, but also being freed up 1109 01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:28,120 Speaker 3: to start a business to make money. 1110 01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:28,920 Speaker 2: For us smart. 1111 01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:33,760 Speaker 1: So you could still technically be of member, but you 1112 01:00:33,840 --> 01:00:36,160 Speaker 1: just wouldn't be as like high up of a. 1113 01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:38,240 Speaker 2: Member set people up for marriage, right, so you just 1114 01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:39,120 Speaker 2: wouldn't be a monk. 1115 01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:42,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly. There's like the typical phrase, there's like 1116 01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:45,600 Speaker 3: monks or in sanskrit's like brahmacharis, and then there's householders 1117 01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:49,040 Speaker 3: and so, and like you wear different color clothes. So 1118 01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:52,760 Speaker 3: the monks wear like the ochre, the saffron, and then 1119 01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:56,680 Speaker 3: the householders wear white, and so sometimes it's kind of 1120 01:00:56,720 --> 01:01:00,240 Speaker 3: spoken about, is that way of like changing cloth. Yeah, 1121 01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:04,040 Speaker 3: you could definitely still be a member. But as in Catholicism, 1122 01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:09,600 Speaker 3: where celibacy becomes a spiritual virtue, there is always some 1123 01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:18,600 Speaker 3: inherent less than attitude towards families, marriages, children, all that stuff, 1124 01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:22,479 Speaker 3: because the most spiritual thing is to leave no time 1125 01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:23,040 Speaker 3: for any of that. 1126 01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:23,640 Speaker 2: Right. 1127 01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:28,840 Speaker 1: But meanwhile, Swami Chibrari is also vooning some chick, right. 1128 01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:31,840 Speaker 3: No, so I want to be fair, you know, just 1129 01:01:32,080 --> 01:01:35,520 Speaker 3: like traveling with them for years, et cetera. I never 1130 01:01:35,680 --> 01:01:40,360 Speaker 3: had evidence of that by Harry Christiana's internal standards, that 1131 01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:44,640 Speaker 3: relationship was still inappropriate. But those standards are ridiculous and 1132 01:01:44,680 --> 01:01:48,080 Speaker 3: puritanical too, so like in Costa Rica, I remember us 1133 01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:51,080 Speaker 3: going in like the swimming hole, and you know, she 1134 01:01:51,280 --> 01:01:55,080 Speaker 3: wore her like sports bra or whatever it was, and 1135 01:01:55,160 --> 01:01:57,960 Speaker 3: like Harry, Christians will be like, oh hell no, not 1136 01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:01,760 Speaker 3: a swamy. So their relationship was odd. They did spend 1137 01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:04,880 Speaker 3: a lot of time alone, like they would you know, 1138 01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:07,320 Speaker 3: the car needed to be fixed and her mom lived 1139 01:02:07,320 --> 01:02:09,400 Speaker 3: in the Bay Area, so they'd go and they'd stay 1140 01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:11,800 Speaker 3: in the guests. How there were times in Costa Rica 1141 01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:16,480 Speaker 3: where they were alone on Aaron's overnight. So I don't 1142 01:02:16,520 --> 01:02:20,480 Speaker 3: rule it out, but as part of you know, maintaining 1143 01:02:20,480 --> 01:02:23,840 Speaker 3: my own credibility, I don't speculate on that one either. 1144 01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:26,600 Speaker 3: It's a reasonable assumption. We're talking about. 1145 01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:29,160 Speaker 2: Okay, what we're talking about, and people were accusing him 1146 01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:30,160 Speaker 2: of it, correct. 1147 01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:32,120 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, online, yeah, some people. 1148 01:02:32,160 --> 01:02:34,840 Speaker 1: But you just don't have any direct evidence that that happened. 1149 01:02:35,080 --> 01:02:38,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, and heard would accuse you of that for you know, 1150 01:02:38,920 --> 01:02:39,720 Speaker 3: sitting alone in. 1151 01:02:39,680 --> 01:02:43,800 Speaker 1: A room, right right, right, right, right, Okay, gotcha. Nothing 1152 01:02:43,880 --> 01:02:46,280 Speaker 1: is wrong with having sex, might I add, but it's 1153 01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:48,760 Speaker 1: just if you are doing it, if you're presenting yourself 1154 01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:51,720 Speaker 1: one way as and then you're behaving other So. 1155 01:02:51,720 --> 01:02:54,520 Speaker 3: Much of your authority and regard as coming from this 1156 01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:58,439 Speaker 3: superhuman display of your spirituality. 1157 01:02:57,400 --> 01:02:59,640 Speaker 1: Right right, So you had this like kind of transitional 1158 01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:02,040 Speaker 1: period where you were like, I'm not a monk, but 1159 01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:05,520 Speaker 1: I am dating and I'm doing a business of my own, 1160 01:03:05,560 --> 01:03:09,120 Speaker 1: but it's for the group still. And then did you 1161 01:03:09,160 --> 01:03:10,400 Speaker 1: have a realization moment? 1162 01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:14,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, the business was succeeding. It was all viable, 1163 01:03:14,560 --> 01:03:17,000 Speaker 3: My margins were It was like, what's my most marketable 1164 01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:19,560 Speaker 3: skill for my years as a monk, and that was cheesemaking. 1165 01:03:19,720 --> 01:03:23,920 Speaker 3: So I started these home home cheesemaking kits. Wow the box. 1166 01:03:24,080 --> 01:03:27,080 Speaker 3: You know, they had already existed, but I added some 1167 01:03:27,160 --> 01:03:31,240 Speaker 3: tweaks to them, and that was kind of going along. Okay. 1168 01:03:31,800 --> 01:03:35,000 Speaker 3: I relocated to Asheville, North Carolina, to be close to 1169 01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:38,200 Speaker 3: one of our communities and settle in. And for me, 1170 01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:41,439 Speaker 3: it was a given that any relationship I had would 1171 01:03:41,440 --> 01:03:44,040 Speaker 3: be with someone outside of the group because our group 1172 01:03:44,120 --> 01:03:48,120 Speaker 3: was so small that there was very few options anyway, 1173 01:03:48,320 --> 01:03:50,600 Speaker 3: and so for me it was like that was a given. 1174 01:03:50,960 --> 01:03:54,600 Speaker 3: So I was in North Carolina dating, et cetera. And 1175 01:03:55,960 --> 01:04:00,120 Speaker 3: something didn't work. And I remember one one girl that 1176 01:04:00,160 --> 01:04:02,520 Speaker 3: I was spending time with said to me. I was like, 1177 01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:06,000 Speaker 3: you're kind of an asshole, and like really threw me 1178 01:04:06,080 --> 01:04:10,120 Speaker 3: for a loop. And what I realized was the internal 1179 01:04:10,160 --> 01:04:12,960 Speaker 3: thing which I knew, which was like the value of 1180 01:04:13,040 --> 01:04:15,920 Speaker 3: others can only go so far if they don't also 1181 01:04:16,560 --> 01:04:21,360 Speaker 3: know all this stuff that I know. But clearly that 1182 01:04:21,520 --> 01:04:24,000 Speaker 3: was coming across and how I was interacting with her, 1183 01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:28,080 Speaker 3: and that wasn't obvious to me, and so that was 1184 01:04:28,200 --> 01:04:29,600 Speaker 3: that stuck with me. You know, her and I are 1185 01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:32,720 Speaker 3: still friends to this day, but like I was like, oh, 1186 01:04:32,720 --> 01:04:35,840 Speaker 3: I don't like that. That's not even as a devout member. 1187 01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:38,640 Speaker 3: That was not the kind of person that I thought 1188 01:04:39,320 --> 01:04:42,280 Speaker 3: we wanted to be, and so that that was part 1189 01:04:42,280 --> 01:04:45,600 Speaker 3: of it, right, And then it was just you know, 1190 01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:49,720 Speaker 3: there was years of like unprocessed emotions that started coming 1191 01:04:49,760 --> 01:04:53,640 Speaker 3: and then the realization essentially that like the Guru had 1192 01:04:53,640 --> 01:04:56,480 Speaker 3: betrayed me. There there's I refer to it kind of 1193 01:04:56,480 --> 01:04:59,800 Speaker 3: like a contract, and the contract is, as the disciple, 1194 01:05:00,280 --> 01:05:06,920 Speaker 3: I'm going to give everything I can, material, psychological, whatever 1195 01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:10,840 Speaker 3: it may be, because you have some capacity to steer 1196 01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:14,120 Speaker 3: me in my best interest better than I do. And 1197 01:05:14,200 --> 01:05:16,560 Speaker 3: so when I realized, like, oh, that was full of shit. 1198 01:05:16,680 --> 01:05:19,720 Speaker 3: If he had had my best interests at heart, he 1199 01:05:19,800 --> 01:05:22,120 Speaker 3: would have encouraged me to move out of the monastery 1200 01:05:22,360 --> 01:05:26,440 Speaker 3: years earlier, for example, And that was kind of that. 1201 01:05:26,520 --> 01:05:28,240 Speaker 3: That was the first day I ever had a panic attack, 1202 01:05:28,320 --> 01:05:31,520 Speaker 3: which thankfully I don't have tons of. It happened for 1203 01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:35,120 Speaker 3: a long time, but it was that. And then I 1204 01:05:35,160 --> 01:05:37,880 Speaker 3: was seeing a therapist because there was like, something's not 1205 01:05:38,720 --> 01:05:41,520 Speaker 3: working well for me. I was seeing a therapist and 1206 01:05:42,200 --> 01:05:44,920 Speaker 3: he suggested I read sid Artha, which I've never read still, 1207 01:05:45,040 --> 01:05:47,240 Speaker 3: but he was like, your life kind of reminds me 1208 01:05:47,280 --> 01:05:49,600 Speaker 3: of this. I know there's like monks and sex. Maybe 1209 01:05:49,880 --> 01:05:52,120 Speaker 3: I don't know how it all works. But I went 1210 01:05:52,160 --> 01:05:53,840 Speaker 3: to the used book store to get it and instaid. 1211 01:05:53,880 --> 01:05:57,240 Speaker 3: I found the Guru papers, which is like this ominous 1212 01:05:57,480 --> 01:06:02,920 Speaker 3: gray tone, and the Guru papers masks of authoritarian power, 1213 01:06:03,400 --> 01:06:07,000 Speaker 3: and I was like, and I was like, whoa shit, 1214 01:06:07,080 --> 01:06:09,160 Speaker 3: I have to get this, though't I like it was 1215 01:06:09,240 --> 01:06:12,520 Speaker 3: just so I was grappling with these dysfunctions in the 1216 01:06:12,520 --> 01:06:15,440 Speaker 3: group while being committed to it. So I took that 1217 01:06:15,480 --> 01:06:17,680 Speaker 3: bo home and I didn't crack it for a few days. 1218 01:06:17,800 --> 01:06:20,800 Speaker 3: I had some sense that this was going to be 1219 01:06:21,040 --> 01:06:24,920 Speaker 3: and just reading the introduction for me, it was like 1220 01:06:24,920 --> 01:06:27,200 Speaker 3: like the keystone, you know, like in an arch It 1221 01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:29,840 Speaker 3: was like, oh, this was the missing piece. And in 1222 01:06:29,880 --> 01:06:34,640 Speaker 3: the introduction they talk about authoritarian structures and they talk 1223 01:06:34,720 --> 01:06:37,920 Speaker 3: about how the reason their book is about gurus is because, 1224 01:06:37,920 --> 01:06:42,480 Speaker 3: in their opinion, the Eastern Guru disciple model is the 1225 01:06:42,520 --> 01:06:49,000 Speaker 3: most authoritarian relationship that exists absent physical violence. 1226 01:06:49,360 --> 01:06:50,080 Speaker 1: Wow. 1227 01:06:50,840 --> 01:06:52,920 Speaker 3: And so I'm reading that and I think, and I 1228 01:06:53,360 --> 01:06:59,800 Speaker 3: was this fucking right hand man. So it was that 1229 01:07:00,560 --> 01:07:03,800 Speaker 3: is sitting on my couch where I realized, like, I'm 1230 01:07:03,840 --> 01:07:07,600 Speaker 3: done with this forever. My life will never be the same. 1231 01:07:07,920 --> 01:07:10,280 Speaker 3: All the people I've cared about and been close to 1232 01:07:10,520 --> 01:07:14,480 Speaker 3: for much of my life, but especially the last tenish years, 1233 01:07:15,160 --> 01:07:18,800 Speaker 3: I will probably not have a relationship with, and that 1234 01:07:18,920 --> 01:07:21,520 Speaker 3: I was going to say something because I had been 1235 01:07:21,640 --> 01:07:26,480 Speaker 3: a prominent enough person in this organization that I wasn't about. 1236 01:07:26,160 --> 01:07:28,000 Speaker 2: To like share the truth, but. 1237 01:07:28,080 --> 01:07:30,680 Speaker 3: The truth weighing out and come what may you know? 1238 01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:33,919 Speaker 3: And that was the hardest time of my life, those 1239 01:07:34,040 --> 01:07:37,960 Speaker 3: months that ensued. You know, it was really intent like 1240 01:07:38,200 --> 01:07:41,960 Speaker 3: the things I didn't even know existed, like degrees of 1241 01:07:42,480 --> 01:07:47,520 Speaker 3: grief and despair and like someone cry that long consistently, 1242 01:07:47,600 --> 01:07:50,760 Speaker 3: like without letting up stuff like that. And thankfully I 1243 01:07:50,760 --> 01:07:53,919 Speaker 3: had a little bit of support here and there. But that, 1244 01:07:54,320 --> 01:07:57,120 Speaker 3: you know, like probably around three months later is when 1245 01:07:57,160 --> 01:08:01,320 Speaker 3: I published my kind of by everyone Here's what's what 1246 01:08:01,440 --> 01:08:02,400 Speaker 3: does I understand it? 1247 01:08:02,680 --> 01:08:04,360 Speaker 1: And what are the bullet points of that? 1248 01:08:04,640 --> 01:08:06,720 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, a lot of it was focused 1249 01:08:06,720 --> 01:08:11,800 Speaker 3: on the dysfunction and exploitation and deception within Treberrii's groups specifically, 1250 01:08:12,200 --> 01:08:14,640 Speaker 3: but I wasn't about to let everyone else off of either, 1251 01:08:14,720 --> 01:08:17,360 Speaker 3: so I went into kind of my broader views on 1252 01:08:18,040 --> 01:08:24,680 Speaker 3: the intrinsic authoritarian qualities of the belief system. And and 1253 01:08:24,840 --> 01:08:27,040 Speaker 3: it was also just for me to move ahead with 1254 01:08:27,080 --> 01:08:30,120 Speaker 3: a clean conscience, like I just needed to lay it 1255 01:08:30,160 --> 01:08:34,120 Speaker 3: all out there. I had nothing to hide, and you know, 1256 01:08:34,520 --> 01:08:37,000 Speaker 3: it's the best thing I've ever done, probably still to 1257 01:08:37,040 --> 01:08:37,479 Speaker 3: this day. 1258 01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:41,920 Speaker 1: Okay, y'all, we will continue next week with a very 1259 01:08:42,040 --> 01:08:47,439 Speaker 1: very interesting conversation on meditation and more. Stay tuned, but 1260 01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:50,920 Speaker 1: for now, Megan, So, what do you think would the 1261 01:08:50,920 --> 01:08:53,160 Speaker 1: Harry Krishnas be a group that would appeal to you? 1262 01:08:53,400 --> 01:08:55,400 Speaker 2: Oh? I think so? Yeah. I think I would have 1263 01:08:55,439 --> 01:08:59,320 Speaker 2: probably gotten way into it. I love meditation. I love 1264 01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:02,280 Speaker 2: being told that something magical will happen to me if 1265 01:09:02,280 --> 01:09:05,080 Speaker 2: I just try hard enough. I love all that stuff. 1266 01:09:05,120 --> 01:09:09,280 Speaker 2: I love chanting. I really love the Krisna Das artist. 1267 01:09:09,320 --> 01:09:10,960 Speaker 2: I don't know if anybody's ever listened to him, but 1268 01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:13,160 Speaker 2: I've gone to many of his concerts and. 1269 01:09:13,200 --> 01:09:17,200 Speaker 1: We really met me yeah three, And. 1270 01:09:17,560 --> 01:09:20,120 Speaker 2: I just love it, I really do. But I also 1271 01:09:20,240 --> 01:09:22,920 Speaker 2: understand that it's fully a cult once you get past 1272 01:09:22,920 --> 01:09:24,439 Speaker 2: a certain point with it. 1273 01:09:24,520 --> 01:09:27,400 Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean it depends on the gurus too, right, 1274 01:09:27,479 --> 01:09:30,439 Speaker 1: I guess. But although yeah, I don't know. Yeah, some 1275 01:09:30,520 --> 01:09:32,680 Speaker 1: of that stuff does seem sort of inherently harmful, but 1276 01:09:32,720 --> 01:09:34,679 Speaker 1: I'm not going to say everyone who is a hardy 1277 01:09:34,760 --> 01:09:37,360 Speaker 1: christianized you know, being abused. Of course. 1278 01:09:37,479 --> 01:09:40,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're definitely a way to do it in a 1279 01:09:40,439 --> 01:09:41,320 Speaker 2: healthy way, I'm sure. 1280 01:09:41,479 --> 01:09:45,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, probably not my speed of cold time. Probably I'd 1281 01:09:45,439 --> 01:09:48,160 Speaker 1: probably be more of a life spring person myself. As 1282 01:09:48,200 --> 01:09:51,240 Speaker 1: we know, I'm definitely more on the self help, self help, 1283 01:09:51,800 --> 01:09:55,400 Speaker 1: self helf, the self help end of the spectrum, the. 1284 01:09:55,479 --> 01:09:59,200 Speaker 2: Self elf, the elf help. 1285 01:10:00,600 --> 01:10:06,240 Speaker 1: Okay, Also, real quick, I didn't mention in the beginning, 1286 01:10:06,439 --> 01:10:09,200 Speaker 1: and this has just occurred to me because I just 1287 01:10:09,240 --> 01:10:13,040 Speaker 1: always think it's interesting how Ginny Thomas went from this 1288 01:10:13,080 --> 01:10:16,439 Speaker 1: one group Live Spring. Steve Hassen then tweeted about how 1289 01:10:16,600 --> 01:10:18,760 Speaker 1: Any talked about it on his podcast. I think too 1290 01:10:19,160 --> 01:10:22,680 Speaker 1: about how the people who deprogrammed her, and deprogramming is 1291 01:10:22,680 --> 01:10:24,320 Speaker 1: a whole other can of worms. We'll talk about that 1292 01:10:24,400 --> 01:10:28,600 Speaker 1: on another episode. But the people who deprogrammed her potentially 1293 01:10:28,680 --> 01:10:31,200 Speaker 1: were kind of extreme Christions themselves and let her down 1294 01:10:31,240 --> 01:10:33,320 Speaker 1: another path. And that is a very common thing, that's 1295 01:10:33,400 --> 01:10:36,000 Speaker 1: cult hopping, and people are always surprised. They're like people 1296 01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:38,000 Speaker 1: were in more than one cult. But I'm like, yeah, 1297 01:10:38,120 --> 01:10:42,000 Speaker 1: when you leave a cult, you're vulnerable. You're looking for 1298 01:10:42,040 --> 01:10:44,760 Speaker 1: a new direction, the direction you just spent so much 1299 01:10:44,760 --> 01:10:46,160 Speaker 1: of your life and there's a. 1300 01:10:46,120 --> 01:10:49,920 Speaker 2: Whole vacuum in your brain just waiting to be filled exactly. 1301 01:10:50,040 --> 01:10:54,680 Speaker 1: So whoever you like end up spending time within that period. Like, 1302 01:10:54,760 --> 01:10:57,040 Speaker 1: it's just a very vulnerable time. So it's very common 1303 01:10:57,600 --> 01:10:59,599 Speaker 1: and we should talk about that more on another episode. 1304 01:10:59,640 --> 01:11:01,800 Speaker 1: But I just want to mention that and that's it. Yay, 1305 01:11:02,000 --> 01:11:02,920 Speaker 1: we'll see you next week. 1306 01:11:02,960 --> 01:11:04,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, we can't wait to see you next week. Remember 1307 01:11:04,880 --> 01:11:07,880 Speaker 2: to follow your gut, watch out for red flags. 1308 01:11:07,560 --> 01:11:10,400 Speaker 1: And never ever trust trust me. 1309 01:11:11,080 --> 01:11:17,040 Speaker 2: Bye.