WEBVTT - Episode 840: Rome – The Never-ending Empire

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<v Speaker 1>On this episode of news World, What if the Roman

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<v Speaker 1>Empire never truly fell? In The never Ending Empire, Aldo

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<v Speaker 1>Cazulo argues that Rome's influences the foundation of the modern

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<v Speaker 1>West and the United States. From the language of American democracy, republic, senate, liberty, citizen,

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<v Speaker 1>to the architecture of its most powerful institutions, the echoes

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<v Speaker 1>of Rome are everywhere here. To discuss his new book,

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<v Speaker 1>I am really pleased to welcome my guests, Aldo Cazzulo.

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<v Speaker 1>He has been reporting on major Italian and international events

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<v Speaker 1>for thirty five years, published thirty books in Italian history

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<v Speaker 1>and selling one and a half million copies. He is

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<v Speaker 1>currently deputy editor of the Italian newspaper Coreerra della Sera.

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<v Speaker 1>And I have to say, as somebody who had the

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<v Speaker 1>fortune to live in Rome for three and a half years,

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<v Speaker 1>having a chance to talk about Rome, a city which

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<v Speaker 1>is truly eternal, and to talk about the Republic and

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<v Speaker 1>the Empire, which is one of the great historic periods

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<v Speaker 1>in human history, to me is very exciting. Aldu, I

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<v Speaker 1>really welcome you, and I thank you for joining me

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<v Speaker 1>on newts World.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much.

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<v Speaker 1>Now you say in your book The never Ending Empire,

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<v Speaker 1>the infinite impact of Ancient Rome quote. The Roman Empire

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<v Speaker 1>never really fell, nor will it ever fall. It has

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<v Speaker 1>continued to live on in the minds, words, and symbols

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<v Speaker 1>of the empires that came after it. What do you

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<v Speaker 1>mean by that?

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<v Speaker 2>Every empire history presented and portrayed itself has the real

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<v Speaker 2>heir of the Roman Empire, the Eastern Roman Empire, kostante Ople,

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<v Speaker 2>the Holy Roman Empire. Charlemagne, Thar and Kaiser are words

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<v Speaker 2>that derive from Caesar, the Russian Empire, the German Empire.

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<v Speaker 2>Napoleon adore Caesar. He wrote a book about him, and

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<v Speaker 2>he wanted to be crowned, not a king, rather than

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<v Speaker 2>emperor of the French. We had the British Empire. But

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<v Speaker 2>in my opinion, the real heir of the Roman Empire

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<v Speaker 2>is the American Empire. What was the symbol of the

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<v Speaker 2>Roman legions the egle? What the symbol of the USA?

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<v Speaker 2>The egle? What's the USA's motto a pluribus unum out

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<v Speaker 2>of many states one it's a Latin motto. I think

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<v Speaker 2>that English is the new Latin, the language of the world.

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<v Speaker 2>Everything in d C reminds me of Rome. The Senate

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<v Speaker 2>Capitol Hill is named after the Capitolium, one of the

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<v Speaker 2>seven genderly hells upon which Rome was born. Jefferson Memorial

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<v Speaker 2>is a copy of the Pantheon. The dom of Capitol

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<v Speaker 2>Hill is a copy of Saint Peter Doma. But above all,

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<v Speaker 2>the strategy of the American Empire is the same of

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<v Speaker 2>the Roman Empire, turning the defeated enemies into allies, just

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<v Speaker 2>like America did with Italy, German and Japan after World

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<v Speaker 2>War Two, forging different pacts, different alliances, different agreements with

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<v Speaker 2>different peoples, and valuing the cultural, military, and political influence

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<v Speaker 2>more important than occupation of territories. Real power is power

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<v Speaker 2>on minds and on souls. End. If not sure what

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<v Speaker 2>America is declining, in my opinion, if there is something

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<v Speaker 2>new in the world, a book, a film, a song,

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<v Speaker 2>a medicine, a vaccine, as signientific discovery, technology and innovation,

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<v Speaker 2>a cultural fed it comes from the USA, the rest

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<v Speaker 2>of the world, China, include all copies or buys.

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<v Speaker 1>From your standpoint, Let's go back to Rome itself. Why

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<v Speaker 1>did it emerge and why was it such a remarkable

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<v Speaker 1>center of achievement for the ancient world.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that, for example, women women in Rome had

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<v Speaker 2>greater rights and freedom than in any ever ancient civilizations.

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<v Speaker 2>In Rome, women dined with the men, could frequent therms

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<v Speaker 2>and arenas, and women could own, sell and buy things.

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<v Speaker 2>I write that in Europe was granted to the women

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<v Speaker 2>just a century ago. Democracy is a Greek world, but

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<v Speaker 2>the first real democracy was the Roman Republic. It was

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<v Speaker 2>the people, not the Senate, who elected the consuls. It

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<v Speaker 2>was the people, not the Senate, who declared the war,

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<v Speaker 2>who made laws. And in fact, the founders fathers of

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<v Speaker 2>the USA looked to the Roman Republic. You know that

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<v Speaker 2>Hamilton signed his articles with the name Publius. Publius was

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<v Speaker 2>one of the first consuls. In seventy seventy seven, George

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<v Speaker 2>Washington rejected the peace offers of the British generals, saying,

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<v Speaker 2>the United Armies of America are fighting for the noblest

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<v Speaker 2>of causes, freedom. The same principles inspired the arms of

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<v Speaker 2>the ancient Rome at the days of its glory. It's

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<v Speaker 2>amazing how the founders fathers of America looked to the

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<v Speaker 2>Roman Republic. But John Booth, Lincoln's killer, chose the Gode

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<v Speaker 2>name Ees eyed so much like Brutus, he was convincted

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<v Speaker 2>to kill a tyrant. He was wrong. Lincoln was not

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<v Speaker 2>a tyrant. Lincoln was a great president, but he thought

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<v Speaker 2>that the USA was becoming an empire. I remember when

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<v Speaker 2>Kennedy in June nineteen sixty three spoke in Berlin. He

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<v Speaker 2>told two millennia ago, the greatest pride was to be

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<v Speaker 2>able to say, chiev is Roman. Who sussum? I am

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<v Speaker 2>a Roman citizen Now in the free world, Kennedy said,

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<v Speaker 2>the greatest prout is to say he had been I Berlin.

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<v Speaker 2>I am a citizen of Berlin. The key phrase of

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<v Speaker 2>the Cold War is carved out a motto, a motto

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<v Speaker 2>of the ancient Rome. It's incredible. Rome is alive. Roman

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<v Speaker 2>civilization is alive. And you before you were saying all

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<v Speaker 2>the words of politics, all the language of the power.

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<v Speaker 2>They derived from Latin citizens. People, emperial dictator, prince, president, liberty, dignity, infamy, honor, justice, treaty, society, veto, suffrage, propaganda, socialist, communism, fascism,

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<v Speaker 2>nationalist liberalists are Latin words, and the most important is

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<v Speaker 2>republic as public, public thing. The idea that the state

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<v Speaker 2>belongs to everyone was born in Rome.

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<v Speaker 1>But I agree largely with your possession. Somehow in the

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<v Speaker 1>period of the Republic before decayed and collapsed. They had

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<v Speaker 1>found a system of liberty and a system of self government,

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<v Speaker 1>which then gave them a resilience so that even when

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<v Speaker 1>they went to war, even if they were defeated temporarily,

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<v Speaker 1>they just kept coming because they could draw on the

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<v Speaker 1>totality of the Roman people in a way that nobody

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<v Speaker 1>else could. So you have Hannibal, for example, spend seventeen

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<v Speaker 1>years going up and down Italy, can't break into the

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<v Speaker 1>walls of the city, and ultimately is defeated because the

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<v Speaker 1>Romans can keep generating more resources and more people. I

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<v Speaker 1>want to push you just a little bit here. When

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<v Speaker 1>you look all the way back to that period, you

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<v Speaker 1>look to the very tiny city which gradually keeps growing

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<v Speaker 1>and growing and growing. What do you think was the

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<v Speaker 1>ingredient in their culture which gave them this capacity to

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<v Speaker 1>have enormous resilience and an extraordinary capacity for mobilizing the

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<v Speaker 1>entire society in a way that nobody else could compete with.

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<v Speaker 2>All Right, Rome could lose a battle, and Rome lost

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<v Speaker 2>many battles, but in the end Rome always won the wars.

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<v Speaker 2>Why because the Romans were not only able to make war,

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<v Speaker 2>they were able also to think of war, to understand war.

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<v Speaker 2>Roman legendary was not a hero, was not a warrior.

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<v Speaker 2>He was a soldier. He was a citizen. He fought

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<v Speaker 2>for something more than himself or his clan, or his

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<v Speaker 2>tribute or his family. He fought for Rome, for the republic,

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<v Speaker 2>res public, public thing. And his goal was not a

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<v Speaker 2>glorious death. His goal was a peaceful retirement thanks to

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<v Speaker 2>the lens and the gold taken away by the enemy.

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<v Speaker 2>And the Roman general was not a figure we nor die. No,

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<v Speaker 2>he was an engineer, He was a strategist, He was

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<v Speaker 2>a planner. He knew but Rome could lose a battle,

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<v Speaker 2>but in the end Roman will win the war. I

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<v Speaker 2>think the Romans had to face the same issues we

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<v Speaker 2>have now, to face the permanent state of war and immigration.

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<v Speaker 2>How did the Romans face immigration? By integration, one could

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<v Speaker 2>become Roman, whatever one's origin, skin color, or religion. And

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<v Speaker 2>also for America, one could become American. This is the

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<v Speaker 2>greatness of America. It's not important where your answer stors

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<v Speaker 2>come from, what the color of your skin, which religion

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<v Speaker 2>you believe in, what foods you eat, what your sexual orientation.

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<v Speaker 2>What matters is what your worth, what you know what

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<v Speaker 2>you do is important, what you bring to the community.

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<v Speaker 2>This is the secret of the force of the ancient Roman.

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<v Speaker 2>This is the secret of the force of the United

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<v Speaker 2>States of America.

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<v Speaker 1>It's fascinating both the way the republic emerged and grew

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<v Speaker 1>from the legend of Romulus and Remus to the replacement

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<v Speaker 1>of the king, which I think is four seventy six

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<v Speaker 1>BC two, and then you get about four centuries of

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<v Speaker 1>a pretty stable system which then begins to decay. And

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<v Speaker 1>part of it, I think is that as Rome began

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<v Speaker 1>to conquer the whole Mediterranean, it began to appear to

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<v Speaker 1>foreign governments that it was cheaper to bribe the Romans

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<v Speaker 1>than to fight them, and so you had this enormous

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<v Speaker 1>explosion of corruption. I was very struck years ago by

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<v Speaker 1>Colin McCullough's seven volume novel about Caesar, which begins with

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<v Speaker 1>his uncle, the first man in Rome, Amarus, and you

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<v Speaker 1>have kings showing up and princes showing up with huge

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<v Speaker 1>amounts of cash and just gradually corrupting the system, and

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<v Speaker 1>in a sense, as it's falling apart, you then have

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<v Speaker 1>this amazing resurgence. I've often wondered if Caesar had failed

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<v Speaker 1>and you'd had Pompey when and the old order continued,

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<v Speaker 1>what would have happened? But when Caesar first emerges then

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<v Speaker 1>gets killed, then his nephew Augustus or Octavius, who becomes Augustus,

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<v Speaker 1>takes over Augustus somehow stabilizes the system, creates a framework

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<v Speaker 1>that is able to function, that lasts for another four

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<v Speaker 1>hundred years. You've said that you regard Guias Julius Caesar

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<v Speaker 1>as one of the greatest men to have ever lived.

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<v Speaker 1>I happened to Greeky, But I'm curious to get your take.

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<v Speaker 1>What is it you see in Caesar that you think

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<v Speaker 1>made him so extraordinary.

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<v Speaker 2>If he had just a writer, or just a political leader,

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<v Speaker 2>or just a military commander, Julius Caesar would have gone

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<v Speaker 2>down in history. But he all of the three things.

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<v Speaker 2>He was a great writer gallia omnis, divisist in party stress.

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<v Speaker 2>The whole goal is divided into three parts, the beginning

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<v Speaker 2>of the Bello gallic extraordinary. He was a great political leader.

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<v Speaker 2>He was also a great military commander, and it was

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<v Speaker 2>also a journalist. He invented the tweet when he defeated

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<v Speaker 2>the King of Pontus in four hours. He hold to

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<v Speaker 2>the Senate Vani vd vicci I came i saw I

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<v Speaker 2>conquered three words twelve letters, the first tweet in history.

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<v Speaker 2>When he was thirty two, he got his first political charge,

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<v Speaker 2>procurator in Spain. He traveled all Spain. He went to

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<v Speaker 2>Cadiff in Gibraltar, where Hercules erected the columns to say

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<v Speaker 2>this is the end of the world. And there was

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<v Speaker 2>a great statue of Alexander the Great, and Caesar had

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<v Speaker 2>an emotional breakdown, bursting into tears. His companion asked him,

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<v Speaker 2>why are you crying, Caesar A He answered, at my age,

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<v Speaker 2>Alexander was the master of the world. I haven't done

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<v Speaker 2>anything glorious yet. The companion said, you're crazy, Caesar. Rome

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<v Speaker 2>is not an empire, Rome is not a kingdom. A

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<v Speaker 2>rom is a republic. And we the popularist we are losing.

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<v Speaker 2>Caesar was the leader of the opposition of the popularists.

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<v Speaker 2>We can consaid the last it was. He supported the

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<v Speaker 2>Fromentacio free distribution of wet but at the power the

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<v Speaker 2>power was in the hands of his enemies, the aristocrats Optimatis, Pompeii, Sila, Cato, Cicero,

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<v Speaker 2>and Caesar wanted to become the master of the world.

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<v Speaker 2>It was becoming the mass of the world. Before being assassinated,

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<v Speaker 2>he planned to conquer Persia and Germany, and the defense

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<v Speaker 2>of the Republic killed them to save the republic. But

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<v Speaker 2>they failed. They failed because at the funeral of Caesar,

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<v Speaker 2>Anthony read his will, his testament, and Caesar left three

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<v Speaker 2>hundreds estersis thousands of dollars to the people, to each

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<v Speaker 2>Roman citizen. And I think at every funeral everyone mourns

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<v Speaker 2>their own death, but that time even so more because

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<v Speaker 2>for the people Caesar appeared like a father. So the

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<v Speaker 2>people revolted against Brutus, against Cassius, against the conspirators who

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<v Speaker 2>had killed Caesar. They had to flee, and Brutus had

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<v Speaker 2>a vision a giant shadow saying, I am your evil genius.

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<v Speaker 2>I will you in Philippi. The day after the last battle,

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<v Speaker 2>Brutus asked, where are we now? What the name of

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<v Speaker 2>his place? We are in Philippi, And he understood that

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<v Speaker 2>his destiny would be terrible.

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<v Speaker 1>Every time I listened to somebody giving mark Antony's oration

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<v Speaker 1>the Shakespeare version, it is so stunning. Anthony took them

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<v Speaker 1>from hating Caesar to loving Caesar in one speech, which

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<v Speaker 1>is quite remarkable, but in some ways, although their roles

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<v Speaker 1>are very different, I think that Augustus is as fascinating

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<v Speaker 1>as his uncle. How do you measure how do you

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<v Speaker 1>think about Augustus as compared to Julius.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that Julius Caesar was a genius. Augustus was

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<v Speaker 2>not a genius. He was a wise and cool man,

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<v Speaker 2>but he died in his own bed. Unfortunately we cannot

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<v Speaker 2>say the same about Caesar. Augustus was a great politician.

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<v Speaker 2>He invented propaganda. Augustus was the first man in history

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<v Speaker 2>whose face was known by all of his contemporaries. There

0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:18.040
<v Speaker 2>were two thousand and five hundred statues with the face

0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:22.840
<v Speaker 2>of Augustus, one in each city of the Empire. In fact,

0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:28.760
<v Speaker 2>Priscilla Zackerberg, Mark Zuckerberg's wife, wrote, we spent our honeymoon

0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:33.040
<v Speaker 2>in Rome, but I thought we were three because Mark

0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:37.080
<v Speaker 2>wanted to be photographated with all the statues of Augustus

0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:39.920
<v Speaker 2>he met. There were many, many, many statues of Augustus.

0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:45.440
<v Speaker 2>It's very interesting Mark Zackerberg has his hair cut like Augustus.

0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:49.800
<v Speaker 2>He handed his meetings with the cry dominium in Latin.

0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:55.639
<v Speaker 2>He called his daughters Auguste Maxima in Aurelia Latin names

0:17:55.920 --> 0:18:00.480
<v Speaker 2>Junove Tilmaski proclaimed himself Emperor of Mars. Also, Gates is

0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:04.920
<v Speaker 2>a fan of demntionient Rome. The digital emperors look to

0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:08.239
<v Speaker 2>the ancient Rome, to the Roman emperors, who were the

0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:13.560
<v Speaker 2>first to real immense communities composed of people who would

0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:18.119
<v Speaker 2>never meet physically, but who were born, lived and died

0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:24.680
<v Speaker 2>under one caesar. And the first caesar was Juduses was Augustus.

0:18:24.920 --> 0:18:28.200
<v Speaker 2>Also if there is also a rumor that the wife

0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:33.480
<v Speaker 2>of Augustus, Livia in the poisoned him by the figs.

0:18:33.560 --> 0:18:38.400
<v Speaker 2>He liked the figs, and Livia wanted his son Tiberius

0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:42.840
<v Speaker 2>was the hair. We don't know. I hope that Augustus

0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:46.560
<v Speaker 2>died of a natural death. Surely he changed everything. It

0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:50.679
<v Speaker 2>changed also the calendar. He created a new era. He

0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:55.320
<v Speaker 2>had the great poets at his court, just like Virgil.

0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:59.760
<v Speaker 2>You know, Virgil had to choose a father for the

0:18:59.840 --> 0:19:05.760
<v Speaker 2>roles founder. Some claimed the Romans, we are the descendants

0:19:05.800 --> 0:19:10.320
<v Speaker 2>of Achilles the strongest. Some claimed we are the descendants

0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:15.240
<v Speaker 2>of Ulysses, the smartest. Virgil said, no, we are the

0:19:15.280 --> 0:19:22.320
<v Speaker 2>descendants of Eneas. The pious. The merciful doesn't mean only mercy.

0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:27.480
<v Speaker 2>It means responsibility, moral strength. Eneas is not a winner,

0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:31.080
<v Speaker 2>is not a conqueror. He's a defeated hero. He has

0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:36.119
<v Speaker 2>to flee from Troy, but he flees with holding his

0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:41.760
<v Speaker 2>son a LUs Eulus, relating the ancestor of Julius Caesar

0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:46.280
<v Speaker 2>by the hands and carrying on the shoulders, and caises

0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:52.359
<v Speaker 2>his father. So Eneas is the pious hero who cares

0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:56.560
<v Speaker 2>for the elders and for the descendants, who take charge

0:19:56.640 --> 0:19:59.840
<v Speaker 2>of the past and of the future, who looks a

0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:04.600
<v Speaker 2>head and behind, and the Pietas is the Roman feeling

0:20:05.000 --> 0:20:09.719
<v Speaker 2>in which the Christians recognize themselves. This is the reason

0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:13.760
<v Speaker 2>why Dante chose Virgil as a guide for his trip

0:20:14.200 --> 0:20:18.760
<v Speaker 2>into Paradise and Hell and Purgatory. And you know that

0:20:18.920 --> 0:20:23.680
<v Speaker 2>Virgil wrote that a poorer will be born to save

0:20:23.720 --> 0:20:29.320
<v Speaker 2>the mankind, and the Christians thought that Virgil had predicted

0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:31.399
<v Speaker 2>the birth of Jesus Christ.

0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:50.280
<v Speaker 1>He wrote that if today we are Christians, it is

0:20:50.320 --> 0:20:54.399
<v Speaker 1>because Rome became Christian. From your perspective, how central is

0:20:54.520 --> 0:20:56.879
<v Speaker 1>Rome's conversion the Christianity.

0:20:57.720 --> 0:21:01.479
<v Speaker 2>Very very important. Also, the gods could become Romans, but

0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:07.280
<v Speaker 2>every god had his homeland. Isis from Egypt. Mitra from Persia,

0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:13.200
<v Speaker 2>Jave from Judea. The Christian God was universal. At the beginning,

0:21:13.760 --> 0:21:20.080
<v Speaker 2>their emperors persecuted the Christians because they didn't understand the Christians.

0:21:20.240 --> 0:21:25.640
<v Speaker 2>The Christians refused to adore the emperor, refused to recognize

0:21:26.000 --> 0:21:31.320
<v Speaker 2>the other gods, and the Christianity appeared to the Romans

0:21:31.640 --> 0:21:37.760
<v Speaker 2>to have turned their ward upside down. Poverty that for

0:21:37.840 --> 0:21:41.359
<v Speaker 2>the Romans was a disgrace became a virtue for the Christians.

0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:48.760
<v Speaker 2>The body, instead of being massaged, perfumed, made up, exhibited,

0:21:49.200 --> 0:21:53.400
<v Speaker 2>delighted with any pleasures, for the sex one in terms,

0:21:53.400 --> 0:21:56.639
<v Speaker 2>became something negative. The important is not the matter. The

0:21:56.680 --> 0:22:00.680
<v Speaker 2>important is the soul and the spirit for the Christians.

0:22:00.720 --> 0:22:06.320
<v Speaker 2>And the cross that was the symbol of the most atrocious, painful,

0:22:06.760 --> 0:22:12.840
<v Speaker 2>humiliating public death became the symbol of salvation. But an emperor,

0:22:13.040 --> 0:22:18.520
<v Speaker 2>Constantine understood that strange religion that no one could erase,

0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:24.240
<v Speaker 2>he could embrass It's true that Christianity promises a revolution.

0:22:24.640 --> 0:22:26.600
<v Speaker 2>The last one will be the first ones, but not

0:22:26.680 --> 0:22:30.359
<v Speaker 2>if it's life in after life, one emperor on earth

0:22:30.600 --> 0:22:31.960
<v Speaker 2>and one God on heaven.

0:22:32.280 --> 0:22:35.280
<v Speaker 1>It was a great idea, and I just realized that

0:22:35.320 --> 0:22:39.400
<v Speaker 1>without the Roman, the orderliness of the Mediterranean, it might

0:22:39.440 --> 0:22:43.720
<v Speaker 1>have been dramatically harder for Christianity to explode the way

0:22:43.720 --> 0:22:48.320
<v Speaker 1>it did. You mentioned Constantine. Can you sort of describe

0:22:48.400 --> 0:22:51.920
<v Speaker 1>the story of Constantine's dream in the night of October

0:22:51.960 --> 0:22:55.720
<v Speaker 1>twenty seventh, eighty three twelve, and in your judgment is

0:22:55.760 --> 0:22:58.000
<v Speaker 1>this mythical or do you think it really happened.

0:22:58.640 --> 0:23:05.080
<v Speaker 2>According to the tradition, Constantine dreamt an angel with a cross,

0:23:05.520 --> 0:23:11.920
<v Speaker 2>and the angel told him enough, Senior vincees, with this sign,

0:23:12.240 --> 0:23:16.840
<v Speaker 2>you will win. And the day after he put the

0:23:16.920 --> 0:23:22.200
<v Speaker 2>cross on the shields of his army, and Constantine's army

0:23:22.280 --> 0:23:27.560
<v Speaker 2>defeated the army of his hanemy Masamfield, and Roe became Christian.

0:23:28.320 --> 0:23:32.399
<v Speaker 2>We won't ever know if the tradition is true or not.

0:23:33.119 --> 0:23:37.280
<v Speaker 2>Surely it's a mystery. The conversion of Constantine is a mystery.

0:23:37.920 --> 0:23:43.400
<v Speaker 2>His mother, Helena, was a Christian, and according to the tradition,

0:23:43.800 --> 0:23:49.520
<v Speaker 2>he discovered the real cross, the Jesus Cross. In Jerusalem.

0:23:49.840 --> 0:23:54.399
<v Speaker 2>He found three crosses. He touched the body of a

0:23:54.440 --> 0:23:58.840
<v Speaker 2>dead man. With each cross, the dead man was erected.

0:23:59.200 --> 0:24:02.240
<v Speaker 2>And this was the realtorals that the custody of the

0:24:02.240 --> 0:24:05.960
<v Speaker 2>cross is in Rome in a greater Roman Basilica. If

0:24:05.960 --> 0:24:08.199
<v Speaker 2>a tradition, we don't know. It's surely it's a mystery

0:24:08.200 --> 0:24:13.560
<v Speaker 2>because before the emperors persecuted the Christians and Constantine became Christian.

0:24:14.000 --> 0:24:16.920
<v Speaker 2>But if you go to Rome, to the Constantine arch,

0:24:17.359 --> 0:24:20.639
<v Speaker 2>there are no Christian symbols, there are no crushes. There

0:24:20.680 --> 0:24:24.840
<v Speaker 2>are also the ancient pagan symbols. It's a mystery also

0:24:25.280 --> 0:24:31.680
<v Speaker 2>understanding if Christianity made the empire weaker or not. We

0:24:31.720 --> 0:24:32.919
<v Speaker 2>won't ever know this.

0:24:34.160 --> 0:24:38.600
<v Speaker 1>It's also intriguing because well, the Western Empire falls around

0:24:38.640 --> 0:24:42.800
<v Speaker 1>I think four seventy if remember correctly, the Byzantine Empire,

0:24:42.800 --> 0:24:47.560
<v Speaker 1>which thought of itself as Roman, called themselves Romans. Byzantine

0:24:47.600 --> 0:24:50.960
<v Speaker 1>is actually a late historian word, and it's not what

0:24:51.000 --> 0:24:56.440
<v Speaker 1>they would have called themselves. They last another thousand years exactly.

0:24:56.960 --> 0:25:02.240
<v Speaker 2>Byzantine is a ward that we Westerners invented during the

0:25:02.280 --> 0:25:06.680
<v Speaker 2>Renaissance to say there are Byzantines, we are the Westerners,

0:25:06.720 --> 0:25:10.119
<v Speaker 2>we are the heirs of the Romans. But they called

0:25:10.200 --> 0:25:18.919
<v Speaker 2>themselves Romae, that means Romans, and we think Constantinople just

0:25:19.040 --> 0:25:24.879
<v Speaker 2>like a decadorating word that did nothing than decay for

0:25:25.040 --> 0:25:29.160
<v Speaker 2>a thousand years it's not true. Constantinople was a miracle,

0:25:29.560 --> 0:25:35.040
<v Speaker 2>was a prodigy. They resisted the Barbarians, they resisted the Arabs,

0:25:35.320 --> 0:25:40.280
<v Speaker 2>they resisted the Turks until fourteen fifty three, and the

0:25:40.320 --> 0:25:45.159
<v Speaker 2>nephew of the last emperor ZOI married the first third.

0:25:45.800 --> 0:25:50.960
<v Speaker 2>Even the Great and the Russians spoke about the third Rome.

0:25:51.080 --> 0:25:54.040
<v Speaker 2>The first rom is Rome, the second rom is Constantinople.

0:25:54.280 --> 0:25:58.240
<v Speaker 2>The third Rome is Moscow, as you know better than me.

0:25:58.640 --> 0:26:03.520
<v Speaker 2>In eighteen forty five five an American journalist of Salivan

0:26:04.080 --> 0:26:09.520
<v Speaker 2>first called manifest destiny to rule the world. Virgil wrote,

0:26:09.960 --> 0:26:12.760
<v Speaker 2>we have the manifest destiny. With the Romans have the

0:26:12.840 --> 0:26:16.760
<v Speaker 2>manifest destiny to rule the world. O Salivan wrote with

0:26:16.880 --> 0:26:20.719
<v Speaker 2>the Americans have the manifest destiny to rule the world.

0:26:20.800 --> 0:26:24.800
<v Speaker 2>But also the Russians think to have a manifest destiny

0:26:25.000 --> 0:26:29.199
<v Speaker 2>to protect Christianity. I think that the Putting I am

0:26:29.240 --> 0:26:32.399
<v Speaker 2>against put the Emperor Ukraine. But I think that Puttin

0:26:32.760 --> 0:26:36.240
<v Speaker 2>is doing the war Ukraine also in his mind to

0:26:36.400 --> 0:26:41.760
<v Speaker 2>save a certain idea of Christianity, a civilization, our Greek

0:26:42.480 --> 0:26:49.440
<v Speaker 2>orthodox Christian civilization. Also, the Turkish emperor Mathematic the second

0:26:50.119 --> 0:26:53.159
<v Speaker 2>sought to be the new Roman emperor. The founder of

0:26:53.160 --> 0:26:57.399
<v Speaker 2>a new dynasty. This is the reason why Roman history

0:26:57.480 --> 0:27:01.639
<v Speaker 2>doesn't end. And I moved when I think to a

0:27:01.760 --> 0:27:07.320
<v Speaker 2>great speech delivered by an American president, Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

0:27:07.880 --> 0:27:12.880
<v Speaker 2>It was five June nineteen forty four, the day before

0:27:13.280 --> 0:27:17.920
<v Speaker 2>the American troops entered Rome, the day after they landed

0:27:17.960 --> 0:27:21.399
<v Speaker 2>in Normandy. It was the turning point of the Second

0:27:21.480 --> 0:27:26.160
<v Speaker 2>World War. Roosevelt said to Italy, or Americans, to the Americas,

0:27:26.320 --> 0:27:30.400
<v Speaker 2>to Italians, Italian people is not our enemy. Italy is done,

0:27:30.640 --> 0:27:34.439
<v Speaker 2>Italy is Michelangelo, Italy is Galileo, Italy is Marconi, Italy

0:27:34.520 --> 0:27:37.600
<v Speaker 2>is a Castopher Columbus. And Rome is not only a

0:27:37.640 --> 0:27:41.720
<v Speaker 2>military target. Rome was the Republic. Rome was the Empire.

0:27:42.040 --> 0:27:44.920
<v Speaker 2>Rome is the Catholic Church. When I listened to Vetter

0:27:45.119 --> 0:27:47.040
<v Speaker 2>Roosevelt's speech, I moved.

0:27:47.520 --> 0:27:49.760
<v Speaker 1>That's remarkable. Let me ask you one last sang, which

0:27:49.880 --> 0:27:53.560
<v Speaker 1>is what advice would you give Americans? What's the lesson

0:27:54.440 --> 0:27:57.959
<v Speaker 1>they should draw that applies to the time we are

0:27:58.000 --> 0:27:58.640
<v Speaker 1>now in.

0:28:00.400 --> 0:28:04.920
<v Speaker 2>Do you remember Gladiator? The movie? Everybody remembers how the

0:28:04.960 --> 0:28:10.720
<v Speaker 2>Gladiator begins at my signal unleash. Hell ifew remember how

0:28:10.840 --> 0:28:16.119
<v Speaker 2>Gladiator ends before dying The Gladiator said, there was once

0:28:16.200 --> 0:28:20.840
<v Speaker 2>a dream that was Rome. It shall be realized. What

0:28:20.960 --> 0:28:25.639
<v Speaker 2>was the Rom's dream? The government of the world, the

0:28:25.760 --> 0:28:30.280
<v Speaker 2>universal peace, a community as large as the known world

0:28:30.480 --> 0:28:33.679
<v Speaker 2>at peace, not because it was a wicked divided but

0:28:33.800 --> 0:28:39.680
<v Speaker 2>because it was united and strong, a multicultural, multi ethnic world.

0:28:40.360 --> 0:28:44.080
<v Speaker 2>I think that the Roman dream is alive. We need

0:28:44.120 --> 0:28:48.120
<v Speaker 2>a government or the world. We leave a word unified

0:28:48.160 --> 0:28:51.280
<v Speaker 2>by the values of democracy and liberty. And the only

0:28:51.400 --> 0:28:57.440
<v Speaker 2>country now that can fulfill the Rom's dream is the

0:28:57.600 --> 0:28:58.960
<v Speaker 2>United States of America.

0:29:00.000 --> 0:29:02.640
<v Speaker 1>I want to thank you for joining me. Your new book,

0:29:03.160 --> 0:29:06.960
<v Speaker 1>The Never Ending Empire, The Infinite Impact of Ancient Rome

0:29:07.360 --> 0:29:11.160
<v Speaker 1>is available now on Amazon and in bookstores everywhere. You're

0:29:11.240 --> 0:29:15.560
<v Speaker 1>remarkably studied, you have an enormous sense of history. I'm

0:29:15.560 --> 0:29:17.600
<v Speaker 1>really really glad that you came and you joined us.

0:29:17.600 --> 0:29:18.760
<v Speaker 1>So thank you very very much.

0:29:19.320 --> 0:29:21.440
<v Speaker 2>Thank you. I am so proud about America is the

0:29:21.480 --> 0:29:24.080
<v Speaker 2>new Rom. So thank you for electing me. Thank you

0:29:24.160 --> 0:29:24.800
<v Speaker 2>for your time.

0:29:27.800 --> 0:29:30.360
<v Speaker 1>Thank you to my guest, Aldo kaZulu. You can get

0:29:30.400 --> 0:29:32.880
<v Speaker 1>a link to buy his new book, The Never Ending Empire,

0:29:33.040 --> 0:29:36.000
<v Speaker 1>The Infinite Impact of Ancient Rome on our show page

0:29:36.040 --> 0:29:39.000
<v Speaker 1>at newsworld dot com. Newt World is produced by Ganglish

0:29:39.040 --> 0:29:43.000
<v Speaker 1>three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guernsey Sloan.

0:29:43.360 --> 0:29:46.840
<v Speaker 1>Our researchers ah Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show

0:29:46.920 --> 0:29:50.080
<v Speaker 1>was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team

0:29:50.120 --> 0:29:53.160
<v Speaker 1>at Ginglishtree sixty. If you've been enjoying news World, I

0:29:53.240 --> 0:29:55.760
<v Speaker 1>hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us

0:29:55.760 --> 0:29:58.680
<v Speaker 1>with five stars and give us a review so others

0:29:58.680 --> 0:30:01.760
<v Speaker 1>can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of

0:30:01.840 --> 0:30:04.800
<v Speaker 1>newts World can sign up for my three free weekly

0:30:04.920 --> 0:30:09.640
<v Speaker 1>columns at ginglishro sixty dot com slash newsletter I'm Nut Gingrich.

0:30:09.960 --> 0:30:10.880
<v Speaker 1>This is Nuts World.