1 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: On this episode of news World, What if the Roman 2 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 1: Empire never truly fell? In The never Ending Empire, Aldo 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,599 Speaker 1: Cazulo argues that Rome's influences the foundation of the modern 4 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: West and the United States. From the language of American democracy, republic, senate, liberty, citizen, 5 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: to the architecture of its most powerful institutions, the echoes 6 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: of Rome are everywhere here. To discuss his new book, 7 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 1: I am really pleased to welcome my guests, Aldo Cazzulo. 8 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: He has been reporting on major Italian and international events 9 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: for thirty five years, published thirty books in Italian history 10 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,239 Speaker 1: and selling one and a half million copies. He is 11 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: currently deputy editor of the Italian newspaper Coreerra della Sera. 12 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: And I have to say, as somebody who had the 13 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 1: fortune to live in Rome for three and a half years, 14 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: having a chance to talk about Rome, a city which 15 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: is truly eternal, and to talk about the Republic and 16 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,199 Speaker 1: the Empire, which is one of the great historic periods 17 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 1: in human history, to me is very exciting. Aldu, I 18 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,320 Speaker 1: really welcome you, and I thank you for joining me 19 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 1: on newts World. 20 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. 21 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:32,960 Speaker 1: Now you say in your book The never Ending Empire, 22 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: the infinite impact of Ancient Rome quote. The Roman Empire 23 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: never really fell, nor will it ever fall. It has 24 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:44,040 Speaker 1: continued to live on in the minds, words, and symbols 25 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: of the empires that came after it. What do you 26 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: mean by that? 27 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 2: Every empire history presented and portrayed itself has the real 28 00:01:55,400 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 2: heir of the Roman Empire, the Eastern Roman Empire, kostante Ople, 29 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 2: the Holy Roman Empire. Charlemagne, Thar and Kaiser are words 30 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 2: that derive from Caesar, the Russian Empire, the German Empire. 31 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 2: Napoleon adore Caesar. He wrote a book about him, and 32 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 2: he wanted to be crowned, not a king, rather than 33 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 2: emperor of the French. We had the British Empire. But 34 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 2: in my opinion, the real heir of the Roman Empire 35 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 2: is the American Empire. What was the symbol of the 36 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 2: Roman legions the egle? What the symbol of the USA? 37 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:42,079 Speaker 2: The egle? What's the USA's motto a pluribus unum out 38 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 2: of many states one it's a Latin motto. I think 39 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 2: that English is the new Latin, the language of the world. 40 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 2: Everything in d C reminds me of Rome. The Senate 41 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 2: Capitol Hill is named after the Capitolium, one of the 42 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 2: seven genderly hells upon which Rome was born. Jefferson Memorial 43 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 2: is a copy of the Pantheon. The dom of Capitol 44 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 2: Hill is a copy of Saint Peter Doma. But above all, 45 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 2: the strategy of the American Empire is the same of 46 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 2: the Roman Empire, turning the defeated enemies into allies, just 47 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 2: like America did with Italy, German and Japan after World 48 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 2: War Two, forging different pacts, different alliances, different agreements with 49 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 2: different peoples, and valuing the cultural, military, and political influence 50 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 2: more important than occupation of territories. Real power is power 51 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 2: on minds and on souls. End. If not sure what 52 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 2: America is declining, in my opinion, if there is something 53 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 2: new in the world, a book, a film, a song, 54 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 2: a medicine, a vaccine, as signientific discovery, technology and innovation, 55 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 2: a cultural fed it comes from the USA, the rest 56 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 2: of the world, China, include all copies or buys. 57 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 1: From your standpoint, Let's go back to Rome itself. Why 58 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:18,600 Speaker 1: did it emerge and why was it such a remarkable 59 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:21,359 Speaker 1: center of achievement for the ancient world. 60 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 2: I think that, for example, women women in Rome had 61 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 2: greater rights and freedom than in any ever ancient civilizations. 62 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 2: In Rome, women dined with the men, could frequent therms 63 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 2: and arenas, and women could own, sell and buy things. 64 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 2: I write that in Europe was granted to the women 65 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 2: just a century ago. Democracy is a Greek world, but 66 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 2: the first real democracy was the Roman Republic. It was 67 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 2: the people, not the Senate, who elected the consuls. It 68 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 2: was the people, not the Senate, who declared the war, 69 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 2: who made laws. And in fact, the founders fathers of 70 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 2: the USA looked to the Roman Republic. You know that 71 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 2: Hamilton signed his articles with the name Publius. Publius was 72 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 2: one of the first consuls. In seventy seventy seven, George 73 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 2: Washington rejected the peace offers of the British generals, saying, 74 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 2: the United Armies of America are fighting for the noblest 75 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:46,839 Speaker 2: of causes, freedom. The same principles inspired the arms of 76 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 2: the ancient Rome at the days of its glory. It's 77 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:55,280 Speaker 2: amazing how the founders fathers of America looked to the 78 00:05:55,400 --> 00:06:02,799 Speaker 2: Roman Republic. But John Booth, Lincoln's killer, chose the Gode 79 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 2: name Ees eyed so much like Brutus, he was convincted 80 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:11,840 Speaker 2: to kill a tyrant. He was wrong. Lincoln was not 81 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 2: a tyrant. Lincoln was a great president, but he thought 82 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 2: that the USA was becoming an empire. I remember when 83 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 2: Kennedy in June nineteen sixty three spoke in Berlin. He 84 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 2: told two millennia ago, the greatest pride was to be 85 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 2: able to say, chiev is Roman. Who sussum? I am 86 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:38,919 Speaker 2: a Roman citizen Now in the free world, Kennedy said, 87 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 2: the greatest prout is to say he had been I Berlin. 88 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:47,279 Speaker 2: I am a citizen of Berlin. The key phrase of 89 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 2: the Cold War is carved out a motto, a motto 90 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 2: of the ancient Rome. It's incredible. Rome is alive. Roman 91 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 2: civilization is alive. And you before you were saying all 92 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 2: the words of politics, all the language of the power. 93 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 2: They derived from Latin citizens. People, emperial dictator, prince, president, liberty, dignity, infamy, honor, justice, treaty, society, veto, suffrage, propaganda, socialist, communism, fascism, 94 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 2: nationalist liberalists are Latin words, and the most important is 95 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 2: republic as public, public thing. The idea that the state 96 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 2: belongs to everyone was born in Rome. 97 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: But I agree largely with your possession. Somehow in the 98 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: period of the Republic before decayed and collapsed. They had 99 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 1: found a system of liberty and a system of self government, 100 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: which then gave them a resilience so that even when 101 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: they went to war, even if they were defeated temporarily, 102 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: they just kept coming because they could draw on the 103 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: totality of the Roman people in a way that nobody 104 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: else could. So you have Hannibal, for example, spend seventeen 105 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: years going up and down Italy, can't break into the 106 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: walls of the city, and ultimately is defeated because the 107 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 1: Romans can keep generating more resources and more people. I 108 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: want to push you just a little bit here. When 109 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: you look all the way back to that period, you 110 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: look to the very tiny city which gradually keeps growing 111 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 1: and growing and growing. What do you think was the 112 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: ingredient in their culture which gave them this capacity to 113 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:47,559 Speaker 1: have enormous resilience and an extraordinary capacity for mobilizing the 114 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:51,199 Speaker 1: entire society in a way that nobody else could compete with. 115 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 2: All Right, Rome could lose a battle, and Rome lost 116 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 2: many battles, but in the end Rome always won the wars. 117 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 2: Why because the Romans were not only able to make war, 118 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 2: they were able also to think of war, to understand war. 119 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 2: Roman legendary was not a hero, was not a warrior. 120 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 2: He was a soldier. He was a citizen. He fought 121 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 2: for something more than himself or his clan, or his 122 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 2: tribute or his family. He fought for Rome, for the republic, 123 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 2: res public, public thing. And his goal was not a 124 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 2: glorious death. His goal was a peaceful retirement thanks to 125 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 2: the lens and the gold taken away by the enemy. 126 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 2: And the Roman general was not a figure we nor die. No, 127 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 2: he was an engineer, He was a strategist, He was 128 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 2: a planner. He knew but Rome could lose a battle, 129 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 2: but in the end Roman will win the war. I 130 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 2: think the Romans had to face the same issues we 131 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 2: have now, to face the permanent state of war and immigration. 132 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 2: How did the Romans face immigration? By integration, one could 133 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 2: become Roman, whatever one's origin, skin color, or religion. And 134 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 2: also for America, one could become American. This is the 135 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 2: greatness of America. It's not important where your answer stors 136 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:35,439 Speaker 2: come from, what the color of your skin, which religion 137 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:39,319 Speaker 2: you believe in, what foods you eat, what your sexual orientation. 138 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 2: What matters is what your worth, what you know what 139 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 2: you do is important, what you bring to the community. 140 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 2: This is the secret of the force of the ancient Roman. 141 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 2: This is the secret of the force of the United 142 00:10:51,080 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 2: States of America. 143 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 1: It's fascinating both the way the republic emerged and grew 144 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:16,119 Speaker 1: from the legend of Romulus and Remus to the replacement 145 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: of the king, which I think is four seventy six 146 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 1: BC two, and then you get about four centuries of 147 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 1: a pretty stable system which then begins to decay. And 148 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 1: part of it, I think is that as Rome began 149 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 1: to conquer the whole Mediterranean, it began to appear to 150 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: foreign governments that it was cheaper to bribe the Romans 151 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 1: than to fight them, and so you had this enormous 152 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:44,440 Speaker 1: explosion of corruption. I was very struck years ago by 153 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: Colin McCullough's seven volume novel about Caesar, which begins with 154 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 1: his uncle, the first man in Rome, Amarus, and you 155 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: have kings showing up and princes showing up with huge 156 00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:01,079 Speaker 1: amounts of cash and just gradually corrupting the system, and 157 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 1: in a sense, as it's falling apart, you then have 158 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 1: this amazing resurgence. I've often wondered if Caesar had failed 159 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: and you'd had Pompey when and the old order continued, 160 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:17,439 Speaker 1: what would have happened? But when Caesar first emerges then 161 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 1: gets killed, then his nephew Augustus or Octavius, who becomes Augustus, 162 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: takes over Augustus somehow stabilizes the system, creates a framework 163 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 1: that is able to function, that lasts for another four 164 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 1: hundred years. You've said that you regard Guias Julius Caesar 165 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 1: as one of the greatest men to have ever lived. 166 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: I happened to Greeky, But I'm curious to get your take. 167 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 1: What is it you see in Caesar that you think 168 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: made him so extraordinary. 169 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 2: If he had just a writer, or just a political leader, 170 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 2: or just a military commander, Julius Caesar would have gone 171 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 2: down in history. But he all of the three things. 172 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 2: He was a great writer gallia omnis, divisist in party stress. 173 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 2: The whole goal is divided into three parts, the beginning 174 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 2: of the Bello gallic extraordinary. He was a great political leader. 175 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 2: He was also a great military commander, and it was 176 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 2: also a journalist. He invented the tweet when he defeated 177 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 2: the King of Pontus in four hours. He hold to 178 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 2: the Senate Vani vd vicci I came i saw I 179 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 2: conquered three words twelve letters, the first tweet in history. 180 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 2: When he was thirty two, he got his first political charge, 181 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 2: procurator in Spain. He traveled all Spain. He went to 182 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 2: Cadiff in Gibraltar, where Hercules erected the columns to say 183 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 2: this is the end of the world. And there was 184 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 2: a great statue of Alexander the Great, and Caesar had 185 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 2: an emotional breakdown, bursting into tears. His companion asked him, 186 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 2: why are you crying, Caesar A He answered, at my age, 187 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 2: Alexander was the master of the world. I haven't done 188 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 2: anything glorious yet. The companion said, you're crazy, Caesar. Rome 189 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 2: is not an empire, Rome is not a kingdom. A 190 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 2: rom is a republic. And we the popularist we are losing. 191 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,359 Speaker 2: Caesar was the leader of the opposition of the popularists. 192 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 2: We can consaid the last it was. He supported the 193 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 2: Fromentacio free distribution of wet but at the power the 194 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 2: power was in the hands of his enemies, the aristocrats Optimatis, Pompeii, Sila, Cato, Cicero, 195 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 2: and Caesar wanted to become the master of the world. 196 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 2: It was becoming the mass of the world. Before being assassinated, 197 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 2: he planned to conquer Persia and Germany, and the defense 198 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 2: of the Republic killed them to save the republic. But 199 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 2: they failed. They failed because at the funeral of Caesar, 200 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 2: Anthony read his will, his testament, and Caesar left three 201 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 2: hundreds estersis thousands of dollars to the people, to each 202 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 2: Roman citizen. And I think at every funeral everyone mourns 203 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 2: their own death, but that time even so more because 204 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 2: for the people Caesar appeared like a father. So the 205 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 2: people revolted against Brutus, against Cassius, against the conspirators who 206 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 2: had killed Caesar. They had to flee, and Brutus had 207 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 2: a vision a giant shadow saying, I am your evil genius. 208 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 2: I will you in Philippi. The day after the last battle, 209 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 2: Brutus asked, where are we now? What the name of 210 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 2: his place? We are in Philippi, And he understood that 211 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 2: his destiny would be terrible. 212 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 1: Every time I listened to somebody giving mark Antony's oration 213 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: the Shakespeare version, it is so stunning. Anthony took them 214 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: from hating Caesar to loving Caesar in one speech, which 215 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 1: is quite remarkable, but in some ways, although their roles 216 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: are very different, I think that Augustus is as fascinating 217 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: as his uncle. How do you measure how do you 218 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 1: think about Augustus as compared to Julius. 219 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 2: I think that Julius Caesar was a genius. Augustus was 220 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 2: not a genius. He was a wise and cool man, 221 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 2: but he died in his own bed. Unfortunately we cannot 222 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 2: say the same about Caesar. Augustus was a great politician. 223 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 2: He invented propaganda. Augustus was the first man in history 224 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 2: whose face was known by all of his contemporaries. There 225 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 2: were two thousand and five hundred statues with the face 226 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 2: of Augustus, one in each city of the Empire. In fact, 227 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 2: Priscilla Zackerberg, Mark Zuckerberg's wife, wrote, we spent our honeymoon 228 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 2: in Rome, but I thought we were three because Mark 229 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 2: wanted to be photographated with all the statues of Augustus 230 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 2: he met. There were many, many, many statues of Augustus. 231 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 2: It's very interesting Mark Zackerberg has his hair cut like Augustus. 232 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 2: He handed his meetings with the cry dominium in Latin. 233 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 2: He called his daughters Auguste Maxima in Aurelia Latin names 234 00:17:55,920 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 2: Junove Tilmaski proclaimed himself Emperor of Mars. Also, Gates is 235 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 2: a fan of demntionient Rome. The digital emperors look to 236 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:08,239 Speaker 2: the ancient Rome, to the Roman emperors, who were the 237 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 2: first to real immense communities composed of people who would 238 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:18,119 Speaker 2: never meet physically, but who were born, lived and died 239 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:24,680 Speaker 2: under one caesar. And the first caesar was Juduses was Augustus. 240 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 2: Also if there is also a rumor that the wife 241 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 2: of Augustus, Livia in the poisoned him by the figs. 242 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:38,400 Speaker 2: He liked the figs, and Livia wanted his son Tiberius 243 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 2: was the hair. We don't know. I hope that Augustus 244 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 2: died of a natural death. Surely he changed everything. It 245 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:50,679 Speaker 2: changed also the calendar. He created a new era. He 246 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 2: had the great poets at his court, just like Virgil. 247 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 2: You know, Virgil had to choose a father for the 248 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 2: roles founder. Some claimed the Romans, we are the descendants 249 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 2: of Achilles the strongest. Some claimed we are the descendants 250 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 2: of Ulysses, the smartest. Virgil said, no, we are the 251 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 2: descendants of Eneas. The pious. The merciful doesn't mean only mercy. 252 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 2: It means responsibility, moral strength. Eneas is not a winner, 253 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 2: is not a conqueror. He's a defeated hero. He has 254 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:36,119 Speaker 2: to flee from Troy, but he flees with holding his 255 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 2: son a LUs Eulus, relating the ancestor of Julius Caesar 256 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 2: by the hands and carrying on the shoulders, and caises 257 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 2: his father. So Eneas is the pious hero who cares 258 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 2: for the elders and for the descendants, who take charge 259 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 2: of the past and of the future, who looks a 260 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 2: head and behind, and the Pietas is the Roman feeling 261 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:09,719 Speaker 2: in which the Christians recognize themselves. This is the reason 262 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 2: why Dante chose Virgil as a guide for his trip 263 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 2: into Paradise and Hell and Purgatory. And you know that 264 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 2: Virgil wrote that a poorer will be born to save 265 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 2: the mankind, and the Christians thought that Virgil had predicted 266 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:31,399 Speaker 2: the birth of Jesus Christ. 267 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 1: He wrote that if today we are Christians, it is 268 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 1: because Rome became Christian. From your perspective, how central is 269 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 1: Rome's conversion the Christianity. 270 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:01,479 Speaker 2: Very very important. Also, the gods could become Romans, but 271 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 2: every god had his homeland. Isis from Egypt. Mitra from Persia, 272 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 2: Jave from Judea. The Christian God was universal. At the beginning, 273 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 2: their emperors persecuted the Christians because they didn't understand the Christians. 274 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:25,640 Speaker 2: The Christians refused to adore the emperor, refused to recognize 275 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 2: the other gods, and the Christianity appeared to the Romans 276 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 2: to have turned their ward upside down. Poverty that for 277 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 2: the Romans was a disgrace became a virtue for the Christians. 278 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 2: The body, instead of being massaged, perfumed, made up, exhibited, 279 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:53,400 Speaker 2: delighted with any pleasures, for the sex one in terms, 280 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,639 Speaker 2: became something negative. The important is not the matter. The 281 00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:00,680 Speaker 2: important is the soul and the spirit for the Christians. 282 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 2: And the cross that was the symbol of the most atrocious, painful, 283 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 2: humiliating public death became the symbol of salvation. But an emperor, 284 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 2: Constantine understood that strange religion that no one could erase, 285 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 2: he could embrass It's true that Christianity promises a revolution. 286 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 2: The last one will be the first ones, but not 287 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 2: if it's life in after life, one emperor on earth 288 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 2: and one God on heaven. 289 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: It was a great idea, and I just realized that 290 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:39,400 Speaker 1: without the Roman, the orderliness of the Mediterranean, it might 291 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 1: have been dramatically harder for Christianity to explode the way 292 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: it did. You mentioned Constantine. Can you sort of describe 293 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,920 Speaker 1: the story of Constantine's dream in the night of October 294 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 1: twenty seventh, eighty three twelve, and in your judgment is 295 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 1: this mythical or do you think it really happened. 296 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 2: According to the tradition, Constantine dreamt an angel with a cross, 297 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:11,920 Speaker 2: and the angel told him enough, Senior vincees, with this sign, 298 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 2: you will win. And the day after he put the 299 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 2: cross on the shields of his army, and Constantine's army 300 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 2: defeated the army of his hanemy Masamfield, and Roe became Christian. 301 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:32,399 Speaker 2: We won't ever know if the tradition is true or not. 302 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 2: Surely it's a mystery. The conversion of Constantine is a mystery. 303 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:43,400 Speaker 2: His mother, Helena, was a Christian, and according to the tradition, 304 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 2: he discovered the real cross, the Jesus Cross. In Jerusalem. 305 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 2: He found three crosses. He touched the body of a 306 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 2: dead man. With each cross, the dead man was erected. 307 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 2: And this was the realtorals that the custody of the 308 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 2: cross is in Rome in a greater Roman Basilica. If 309 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,199 Speaker 2: a tradition, we don't know. It's surely it's a mystery 310 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 2: because before the emperors persecuted the Christians and Constantine became Christian. 311 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 2: But if you go to Rome, to the Constantine arch, 312 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,639 Speaker 2: there are no Christian symbols, there are no crushes. There 313 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 2: are also the ancient pagan symbols. It's a mystery also 314 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 2: understanding if Christianity made the empire weaker or not. We 315 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:32,919 Speaker 2: won't ever know this. 316 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 1: It's also intriguing because well, the Western Empire falls around 317 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: I think four seventy if remember correctly, the Byzantine Empire, 318 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 1: which thought of itself as Roman, called themselves Romans. Byzantine 319 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 1: is actually a late historian word, and it's not what 320 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:56,440 Speaker 1: they would have called themselves. They last another thousand years exactly. 321 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 2: Byzantine is a ward that we Westerners invented during the 322 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:06,680 Speaker 2: Renaissance to say there are Byzantines, we are the Westerners, 323 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 2: we are the heirs of the Romans. But they called 324 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:18,919 Speaker 2: themselves Romae, that means Romans, and we think Constantinople just 325 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:24,879 Speaker 2: like a decadorating word that did nothing than decay for 326 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:29,160 Speaker 2: a thousand years it's not true. Constantinople was a miracle, 327 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 2: was a prodigy. They resisted the Barbarians, they resisted the Arabs, 328 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 2: they resisted the Turks until fourteen fifty three, and the 329 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 2: nephew of the last emperor ZOI married the first third. 330 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 2: Even the Great and the Russians spoke about the third Rome. 331 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 2: The first rom is Rome, the second rom is Constantinople. 332 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 2: The third Rome is Moscow, as you know better than me. 333 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 2: In eighteen forty five five an American journalist of Salivan 334 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 2: first called manifest destiny to rule the world. Virgil wrote, 335 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 2: we have the manifest destiny. With the Romans have the 336 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 2: manifest destiny to rule the world. O Salivan wrote with 337 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,719 Speaker 2: the Americans have the manifest destiny to rule the world. 338 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 2: But also the Russians think to have a manifest destiny 339 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:29,199 Speaker 2: to protect Christianity. I think that the Putting I am 340 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,399 Speaker 2: against put the Emperor Ukraine. But I think that Puttin 341 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 2: is doing the war Ukraine also in his mind to 342 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 2: save a certain idea of Christianity, a civilization, our Greek 343 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 2: orthodox Christian civilization. Also, the Turkish emperor Mathematic the second 344 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,159 Speaker 2: sought to be the new Roman emperor. The founder of 345 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:57,399 Speaker 2: a new dynasty. This is the reason why Roman history 346 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 2: doesn't end. And I moved when I think to a 347 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 2: great speech delivered by an American president, Franklin Delano Roosevelt. 348 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:12,880 Speaker 2: It was five June nineteen forty four, the day before 349 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:17,920 Speaker 2: the American troops entered Rome, the day after they landed 350 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 2: in Normandy. It was the turning point of the Second 351 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:26,160 Speaker 2: World War. Roosevelt said to Italy, or Americans, to the Americas, 352 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:30,400 Speaker 2: to Italians, Italian people is not our enemy. Italy is done, 353 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:34,439 Speaker 2: Italy is Michelangelo, Italy is Galileo, Italy is Marconi, Italy 354 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 2: is a Castopher Columbus. And Rome is not only a 355 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 2: military target. Rome was the Republic. Rome was the Empire. 356 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,920 Speaker 2: Rome is the Catholic Church. When I listened to Vetter 357 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 2: Roosevelt's speech, I moved. 358 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 1: That's remarkable. Let me ask you one last sang, which 359 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: is what advice would you give Americans? What's the lesson 360 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,959 Speaker 1: they should draw that applies to the time we are 361 00:27:58,000 --> 00:27:58,640 Speaker 1: now in. 362 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,920 Speaker 2: Do you remember Gladiator? The movie? Everybody remembers how the 363 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 2: Gladiator begins at my signal unleash. Hell ifew remember how 364 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:16,119 Speaker 2: Gladiator ends before dying The Gladiator said, there was once 365 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 2: a dream that was Rome. It shall be realized. What 366 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:25,639 Speaker 2: was the Rom's dream? The government of the world, the 367 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 2: universal peace, a community as large as the known world 368 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,679 Speaker 2: at peace, not because it was a wicked divided but 369 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 2: because it was united and strong, a multicultural, multi ethnic world. 370 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 2: I think that the Roman dream is alive. We need 371 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 2: a government or the world. We leave a word unified 372 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 2: by the values of democracy and liberty. And the only 373 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 2: country now that can fulfill the Rom's dream is the 374 00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 2: United States of America. 375 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: I want to thank you for joining me. Your new book, 376 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 1: The Never Ending Empire, The Infinite Impact of Ancient Rome 377 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 1: is available now on Amazon and in bookstores everywhere. You're 378 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 1: remarkably studied, you have an enormous sense of history. I'm 379 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 1: really really glad that you came and you joined us. 380 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 1: So thank you very very much. 381 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 2: Thank you. I am so proud about America is the 382 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 2: new Rom. So thank you for electing me. Thank you 383 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 2: for your time. 384 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest, Aldo kaZulu. You can get 385 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: a link to buy his new book, The Never Ending Empire, 386 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: The Infinite Impact of Ancient Rome on our show page 387 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: at newsworld dot com. Newt World is produced by Ganglish 388 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guernsey Sloan. 389 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 1: Our researchers ah Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show 390 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team 391 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: at Ginglishtree sixty. If you've been enjoying news World, I 392 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 1: hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us 393 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: with five stars and give us a review so others 394 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of 395 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 1: newts World can sign up for my three free weekly 396 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 1: columns at ginglishro sixty dot com slash newsletter I'm Nut Gingrich. 397 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 1: This is Nuts World.