WEBVTT - Take Your Dick Out Right Now (feat. Louis Virtel) 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:05.640 Madonna showed you what gay was before you know what 0:00:05.760 --> 0:00:07.920 gay is completely. 0:00:07.640 --> 0:00:11.800 Donna, I think probably is like the gay to way 0:00:12.000 --> 0:00:14.800 drag for a lot of gay people. 0:00:16.120 --> 0:00:18.439 She's sheen a. 0:00:18.600 --> 0:00:21.440 Me, no me, not my name? 0:00:21.920 --> 0:00:22.080 Yo? 0:00:24.360 --> 0:00:26.160 What is your childhood? Us? 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:28.720 I am chok a. 0:00:31.200 --> 0:00:33.159 Your life's going down the floor like. 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:35.440 Round. 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:49.800 This conversation feels a long time coming because our podcast 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:53.360 is literally named after a Madonna song, and when we 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:57.200 launched it, we asked her please not to sue us, 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:01.280 and she hasn't, so oh thank god. 0:01:01.400 --> 0:01:05.520 Madonna is not a super litigious person, although I think 0:01:05.560 --> 0:01:08.000 she could be proven wrong. We could be proven wrong 0:01:08.040 --> 0:01:10.840 at any moment. There could be drones waiting outside all 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:13.320 of our homes right now, And lucky for us, we 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:19.240 also have noted scholar of Madonna ology, Lewis Frattel, I 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:22.840 actually am so scared to talk about Madonna with you 0:01:22.880 --> 0:01:26.119 because you know so much about her. Is that an understatement? 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:29.520 Well, once upon a time I would have said I'm 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:33.479 in the top point one percentile of Madonna super fans, 0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:36.200 but in the past few years have become less encyclopedic 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:39.760 about like every track she's released, every album she's released, 0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:43.520 because you know, they're like not as good. Yeah, but no, no, No, 0:01:43.560 --> 0:01:45.360 I'm like, it's like it, would you say that started 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:46.200 with MDNA? 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:49.080 I honestly will. I'll say this. 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:54.320 I feel like most Madonna albums gain like credibility in time. 0:01:54.440 --> 0:01:56.960 Like I remember when music came out and thinking, oh, 0:01:57.000 --> 0:01:59.720 this is like a little annoying that she's doing a 0:01:59.760 --> 0:02:02.240 cow boy thing. Is she's just doing it because she hasn't. 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:02.559 Done it before. 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:04.480 It didn't feel organic to her brand at the time, 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:07.200 And now I think it's like an amazing album. That said, 0:02:07.280 --> 0:02:11.120 and the album since, like like hard Candy even that's 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:12.680 gained something for me in the time since. 0:02:12.680 --> 0:02:16.720 But m DNA m DNA has not really, even though 0:02:16.720 --> 0:02:18.600 I like about five or six of the songs on it. 0:02:20.639 --> 0:02:22.320 Do Madonna Stands have a name? 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:26.640 No, because obviously it predates the idea of standing right, 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:28.120 you know what I mean? You really just start a 0:02:28.160 --> 0:02:29.400 gay guy who's thirty eight? 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:31.640 Yeah, white guy. 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:34.760 I guess Madonna Stands are just faggots. But could we 0:02:34.840 --> 0:02:40.160 retroactively give Madonna stans a name like Little Madonasters or something. 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:42.799 Yeah, I think it has to be less cute in 0:02:42.840 --> 0:02:45.440 the Lady Gaga realm and just more you know, like 0:02:46.400 --> 0:02:49.360 it also has to pertain to an era of Madonna 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:51.960 that all gay fans are obsessed with. Something I'm always 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:55.080 fascinated with is that you will never meet, specifically a 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:57.920 gay Madonna fan whose favorite song is like a Virgin, you. 0:02:57.919 --> 0:03:01.200 Will never you know, and that's still like her not. 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:03.359 I think Take a Bow is technically her biggest song, 0:03:03.400 --> 0:03:05.520 but like like a Virgin is maybe her most definitive. 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:07.720 So it would have to do something with voguing or 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:11.400 posing or something like that. I don't know, posers. 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:17.959 As someone who okay, well put that in Wikipedia. 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:20.920 As someone who didn't really experience like Madonna's like single 0:03:21.320 --> 0:03:24.240 singles in real time, or like just to understand a 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:26.840 lot of like the arc of her music trajectory. Why 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:30.919 is La Isla Bonita one of her most famous songs? 0:03:31.280 --> 0:03:32.519 I don't it's so good? 0:03:32.960 --> 0:03:33.600 It's so good. 0:03:33.919 --> 0:03:39.120 No, it's not, it's one of her best. Guys are 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:42.480 making me feel crazy, It's it's not a good song. 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:47.120 I'm yes, no, no, no, I knew. I'm scared. I was 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:50.000 scared of this moment. I'm going up against two Madonna 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:53.560 stands about how this is categorically just like a boring 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:58.160 song in comparison to the rest of her discography, Like 0:03:58.320 --> 0:03:59.480 why is it so popular? 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:01.640 So when you're wrong, are you often long like this 0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:04.000 because you should really like slow it down and listen, 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:05.200 get to the right. 0:04:05.240 --> 0:04:07.880 Yes she is, that's what this whole pomecast. Okay, it's 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:09.000 just Fran being wrong. 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:14.720 Finally enough love Hi. I want to know why? Like 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:17.440 what so when this when this song came out? Like 0:04:17.480 --> 0:04:19.040 what was the moment in her life? I kind of 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:20.440 want to paint a little bit of a picture of 0:04:20.480 --> 0:04:23.000 like who she was, But like Lasla Blonita, what era 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:23.880 was that? 0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:25.880 That's so that's true Blue And that was not the 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:27.880 first single or the second single on True Blue, but 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:30.159 it had been this blockbuster album and so it was 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:33.320 the follow up to I Believe, even the title track 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:36.000 and Open Your Heart and pop it on't Preach and 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:39.520 uh it's on the Immaculate Collection, and so it got 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:44.679 chosen over actually bigger hits like the number one Who's 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:47.160 That Girl is not on the Immaculate Collection, but while 0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:50.560 Bonita is. This is also just the beginning of Madonna 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:54.120 being obsessed with other cultures and sort of intending to 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:54.920 be among them. 0:04:55.160 --> 0:04:58.080 Right right right, right, right, right right I was just 0:04:58.080 --> 0:04:59.839 curious because it's like she's a woman of the world, 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:04.000 always like in her like top three songs and like 0:05:04.000 --> 0:05:06.960 like that people list, and I'm always confused. I was like, 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:09.120 did it come with a movie soundtrack? Like what was 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:12.200 the deal? Yeah, because I don't get it, but I 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:14.960 respect it. I respect I'll spend some more time with 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:19.599 la Isla Bonita. Do you guys have a favorite Madonna era? 0:05:19.800 --> 0:05:23.120 I guess or should we? For the Virgins maybe talk 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:27.440 about like there's really no one place to start with Madonna, 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:30.000 whether it's her music or like who she is as 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:33.800 a star in creating this like archetype of stardom, her eras, 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:35.080 her fashion, like whatever. 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:38.120 Like I guess, like favorite Madonna album might be a 0:05:38.160 --> 0:05:39.200 good ya. 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:41.839 To start favorite era? Can Yeah? 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:43.960 Well, I mean I think her eras are so tied 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:46.159 to her album because Madonna is kind of one of 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:51.080 one of those artists who I and like, correct me 0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:52.800 if I'm wrong, but like, I think she's one of 0:05:52.839 --> 0:05:56.400 the artists who started this pop star tradition of having 0:05:56.800 --> 0:05:59.240 the era be very tied to the album and oh 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:04.960 sure cycle reimagining her looks. Yeah, yeah, I'm very interested 0:06:05.000 --> 0:06:07.520 to know Lewis, what's your favorite Madonna album. 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:10.400 Well, it's interesting because I actually would separate my favorite 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:13.839 album from era, like Okay, for me, the era would 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:16.640 be the Blonde Ambition Tour and and Vogue and the 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:19.520 Subs because that's when she was both the biggest star 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:21.600 in the world and also I would argue the coolest 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:22.480 star in the world, like. 0:06:22.480 --> 0:06:23.960 She was pushing the most buttons. 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:28.320 She was like her celebrity orbit was crazy. She's obviously 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:30.440 with like Warren Beatty at the time. She had the 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:32.960 Sex Book come out right afterwards, so it's just all 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:35.040 this attention was paid to her, you know. 0:06:35.680 --> 0:06:37.320 You know, it's the early nineties. 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:40.000 Like things like like Donald Trump is huge in the 0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:42.599 New York celebrity way, and she's sort of adjacent to 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:46.560 that anyway. But my favorite album of hers is her 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:50.880 first album because I feel like, even pre fame, you 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:55.760 can hear the X factor that makes Madonna still unparalleled, 0:06:55.760 --> 0:07:00.880 which is the like unquenched ambition, the I'm gonna have 0:07:01.240 --> 0:07:03.320 the time of my life in front of everybody. 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:05.680 Everybody's gonna want to watch me, you know. 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:07.880 I'm like, I'm like the girl at dance Maeteryria, who 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:10.880 like everybody's gathered around. There's just something about me and 0:07:10.960 --> 0:07:14.840 my stupid like you know, uh, flimsy men's wear and 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:20.040 bangles and uh just nerve that people can't get enough 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:21.840 of and so on that record. You know, she's not 0:07:21.880 --> 0:07:24.960 famous at all yet. In fact, you know, there's some 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:27.080 rumors that a lot of listeners didn't even know she 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:28.720 was white, which feels crazy to me. 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:30.800 She sounds like a white why she's not like the 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:31.520 whitest woman. 0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:34.880 Okay, but but you know, it's like it's it's hard disco, 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:39.800 you know, everybody, You've got Holiday, You've got Lucky Star, Borderline. 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:42.040 These are all such indelible songs, and I feel like 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:45.920 they fit so well and unpretentiously together, Like the whole 0:07:45.920 --> 0:07:48.440 theme of the album is just Madonna, Like you know, 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:49.880 you want to be with her at the club and 0:07:49.920 --> 0:07:52.440 she's cool and kind of laughing at your dance moves 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:53.560 while everybody hits on her. 0:07:53.760 --> 0:07:57.400 You know, honestly that that like star quality is something 0:07:57.440 --> 0:07:59.920 that she just had from the very beginning. And honestly, 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:02.600 this is like why she always gets the Gaga comparisons, 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:05.200 because Gaga was also one of those people that, like 0:08:05.480 --> 0:08:07.640 she treated herself like an a lister when she was 0:08:07.680 --> 0:08:10.200 like performing at like you know, pubs or whatever to 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:13.080 like rooms of fifteen people, and that was like very 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:15.760 Madonna too, But like I'm trying not to jump around. 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:17.400 I want to stay in your era. But like when 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:19.800 I just watched Truth or Dare for the first time, 0:08:20.240 --> 0:08:23.960 and watching her in in that is like you understand 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:27.760 why everyone is so immediately attracted to her. You can't 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:32.520 stop watching her. She's not even like an amazing vocalist 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:35.000 like her. I mean she is, but like her voice 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:38.520 isn't the thing that brings her stardom. I think her 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:42.120 voice has like a kind of a very specific quality 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:45.320 that you know, lends itself to the music that she makes. 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:48.200 It's unmistakable. It's like Rihanna. You hear Rihanna? You know 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:48.800 it's reality. 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:53.600 Yeah, yeah exactly. And like also like I yeah, it's 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:56.959 like a lot of the songs that she does, or 0:08:57.040 --> 0:08:58.920 rather a lot of the songs that she's famous for 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:02.320 on page or could be like really boring, but like 0:09:02.440 --> 0:09:05.640 she adds something to them with her vocal quality that 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:08.840 I think I guess completes the package. 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:12.360 Yeah wait, okay, well that's kind of soulfulness and like undeniable, 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:14.280 like I will get in your face, it will be me. 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:15.640 You think about kind of. 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:19.640 Yeah, Rose, what was your what was your favorite era 0:09:19.840 --> 0:09:22.240 or rather favorite I guess that what were we different? 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:24.559 Different favorite era and favorite album? 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:28.480 Yeah, I think I'm kind of similar and not. The 0:09:28.640 --> 0:09:31.400 two are a little different from me. For me, I 0:09:31.440 --> 0:09:36.600 think Ray of Light Madonna is my favorite era, like Kabbala, 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:40.120 like earth Mother Madonna I very much vibe with. But 0:09:40.200 --> 0:09:42.240 then my favorite album is Confessions on. 0:09:42.240 --> 0:09:45.160 A Dance for I really am proud of Faggots for 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:47.760 just saying that's gonna be our album, like we're going 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:50.480 to play that now forever. Like at the time, I 0:09:50.600 --> 0:09:53.040 liked it, and I still obviously do like it, but 0:09:53.080 --> 0:09:56.120 we've really anointed it like the definitive two thousands, like 0:09:56.200 --> 0:09:57.680 gay pop album. 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:02.560 Yes, and it is. I have said this before. 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:06.240 If I could go back in time, if I had 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:08.360 a time machine, I would go back to see the 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:13.480 Confessions tour because it just is to me like that solidified. 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:17.200 You know, I grew up always being aware of Madonna's music. 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:18.560 I think in the way that we all were. 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:22.240 She wasn't really someone that you know, my parents were 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:25.560 really like featuring when I was younger, but I like 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:29.040 absorbed her through cultural osmosis and then like I think 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:32.600 I became more aware of her around American life, and 0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:37.160 American Life is one of my favorite Madonna albums, and 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:39.520 like Die Another Day was a big moment for me. 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:42.040 I was still one of the most expensive music videos 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:42.560 of all time. 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:45.480 I kind of wish that we would go back to 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:51.360 that genre of Bond themes, like I want a poppier song. 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:52.920 They don't all need to be balanced. 0:10:53.000 --> 0:10:56.320 Yeah, it reminds you of being in a spy thriller. Yeah, 0:10:56.360 --> 0:10:57.320 like dynamic totally. 0:10:57.400 --> 0:10:58.079 Yeah. 0:10:58.280 --> 0:10:58.520 Yeah. 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:01.080 I love how she kills herself in that video. It's 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:05.640 so fun. But I really think that Confessions was the 0:11:05.679 --> 0:11:11.040 first time that I chose Madonna. I think Ray of 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:13.480 Light is when it started like percolating for me, and 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:18.160 then Confessions, I was like, oh, I am an active 0:11:18.160 --> 0:11:20.760 participant in this album and it is the one that 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:24.440 I revisit the most often. Although I would say, you know, 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:28.920 Ray of Light, Confessions and maybe like Erotica are very 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:31.840 close behind in terms of the actual music. 0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:34.800 What's upon a time you would have really like Erotica 0:11:34.840 --> 0:11:38.280 defensive Gays being like that's her definitive era, her gayest era, 0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:41.319 and now I feel like those people have evolved into Confessions. 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:43.520 People like that's our version of the Club Madonna. We 0:11:43.600 --> 0:11:44.560 defend the most, you know. 0:11:44.960 --> 0:11:47.800 I feel like Confessions came at a time where there 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:53.320 had been a handful of like lack luster albums or 0:11:53.360 --> 0:11:57.160 the albums that people just like weren't as excited about following, 0:11:57.400 --> 0:12:00.680 just like the multiple peaks in madonn on his career. 0:12:00.800 --> 0:12:03.920 And so when she re emerged with the fucking Abba sample, 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:07.360 everyone was like, oh, like, oh, this is like a 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:11.040 song for pop music, literally defining pop music. 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:11.440 Yeah. 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:13.640 No, actually it's comparable to Ray of Light in that 0:12:13.679 --> 0:12:16.240 way where, Yeah, part of the excitement about that was 0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:19.760 she did have Bedtime Stories had its hits and I 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:22.679 love that album, and she had the Vida soundtrack, which 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:25.160 of course is memorable in certain ways, but neither of 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:27.559 those things felt definitively her. And so when she kind 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:29.120 of came back into her own and Ray of Light, 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:31.800 there was this new like I remember, that's when I 0:12:31.800 --> 0:12:33.880 became a Madonna fan. And for a moment there, we 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:36.600 really treated her like a Kennedy Center honoree, like We're like, oh, 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:40.640 she's back and important and Confessions is similar because it 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:43.680 had been preceded by American Life, which, though I like 0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:47.560 the middle four through seven on that album, was an 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:51.439 album that utterly baffled people and also really became. 0:12:53.520 --> 0:12:55.800 Like Ray of Light, you can tell when Madonna writes 0:12:55.800 --> 0:12:56.360 the lyrics. 0:12:56.679 --> 0:12:57.000 Yeah, and. 0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:00.760 She was going for a statement make on that album 0:13:00.760 --> 0:13:03.240 in a way where I found them a bit circuitous 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:06.080 and a bit baffling. It's just just it wanted to 0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:08.640 be important and it came up with confusing. 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:09.440 Wait did you? 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:14.160 Madonna does often, I think that's very true, wants to 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:17.280 be important, and it's usually when she's not trying to 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:18.640 be that she most effectively. 0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:22.520 That is so te Oh my god. Yes, that's because. 0:13:23.120 --> 0:13:25.800 Because I think ultimately she kind of took the wrong 0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:28.199 lesson from the critical praise heaped on Ray of Light, 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:32.200 which was, you know, obviously that album is kind of 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:36.240 full of moody and occasionally pretentious statements like yeah, she's 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:37.280 sort of like she's. 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:38.559 Like, oh I've been so selfish. 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:41.400 Oh I you know, she's like renouncing the naughty parts 0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:41.920 of herself. 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:42.280 Yeah. 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:44.160 Well it's like no, no, no, no, no, no, we love that. 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:45.920 No keep that, keep that, keep that. 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:50.280 And instead she became this like MOODI or lyricist this 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:53.800 you know again attempts at statement making, and they're just 0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:57.880 not as fruitful as her being again a bitch in 0:13:57.880 --> 0:13:58.720 front of everybody. 0:13:58.880 --> 0:14:00.800 You know, yeah, I Madonna. 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:04.440 Madonna loves to make a statement, like when in twenty 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:07.440 twenty when she performed at the Boom Boom Room and 0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:10.080 wore a harness that said not my President on it. 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:13.240 Yeah, y yes, things like yeah, or like there are 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:15.600 just times in her like the third quarter of her 0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:20.120 discography where she's just like war is bad, right, like 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:22.280 you know what I mean, Like she just has a 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:26.760 handful of songs like that. But wait, I'm going way back. 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:29.120 You use the word circuitous, and I need to know 0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:30.120 what that means. 0:14:29.960 --> 0:14:34.080 Now, just like well literally on American Life, the last 0:14:34.120 --> 0:14:37.520 song easy Ride, the lyrics go in a circle, but 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:42.000 just it's like she's attempting to go for something provocative 0:14:42.000 --> 0:14:43.800 and instead is coming up with like a loop of 0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:46.720 cliches you've heard before. That's the number one thing that 0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:49.640 bothers me about Madonna right now as a writer, is 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:52.720 I still feel like she's gunning. You know, she'll have 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:55.600 a song about gun control or whatever, which great by 0:14:55.640 --> 0:14:58.000 all means do it. Yeah, but at the same time, 0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:01.200 it can't just be filled with sentiments I've heard a 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:03.840 million times before that are novel to you because your 0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:05.800 ear is not to the ground, like you don't know 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:07.560 what other people are already saying. 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:09.520 Like that's that's what bothers me about her child. 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:16.400 She is kind of her politics are, I mean now, 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:20.040 they're definitely like still kind of Trump era, if not 0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:24.720 Obama era, Like Madonna's power actually used to be that, 0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:28.160 like her and her team did have their finger on 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:31.040 the pulse of culture like that, like when we think 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:35.560 about something like Vogue, like that obviously feels like reductive 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:37.600 or appropriate if now, but like at the time, it's 0:15:37.640 --> 0:15:41.480 just like nobody was doing that. Nobody was assembling like 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:45.440 a cool like under like undercurrent like subcultural group of 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:47.960 people that had never been amplified before, which is something 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:49.000 that pop stars. 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:52.440 Do now all the time, like and like put them 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:54.480 at the forefront, bring them along with you with you 0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:57.440 on tour, create a whole song around an art form 0:15:57.440 --> 0:16:00.400 that has not been appreciated like whatever. And even outside that, 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:02.720 like outside of the Vulgera. In so many different parts 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:06.000 of her life, she knew what was cool. She knew 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:07.560 the stars that were cool, she knew the people that 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:10.800 were cool. She was in all these circles with you know, 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:14.240 Keith Herring, Andy Warhol, right, all these different folks, and 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:16.960 now it just feels like, yeah, she's in her castle 0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:19.760 and she doesn't know what's going on, Like it's sad. 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:21.520 Well, what I want to say is that I do 0:16:21.560 --> 0:16:26.560 think that Madonna's politics were progressive when we actually needed 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:29.560 them to be, Like I think during the AIDS crisis, 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:34.280 like the way that she was a true ally to 0:16:34.400 --> 0:16:39.520 queer people and would not stop talking about AIDS and 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:42.760 like using the platform that she had in a useful 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:44.840 way like she did that. I don't know that we 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:49.120 need Madonna to be like, you know, the kind of 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:52.640 like transgressor now like I think we maybe have moved 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:55.760 We as a society have moved past the need for 0:16:56.080 --> 0:16:59.000 Madonna as like a political activist. 0:16:59.080 --> 0:16:59.680 I guess right. 0:16:59.760 --> 0:17:01.080 No, I definitely agree with that. 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:03.640 I mean, when you she's somebody like Elizabeth Taylor or 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:05.840 Diane Warwick, are those people who at the time were 0:17:05.880 --> 0:17:10.560 like seemingly randomly speaking of you know, like there just 0:17:10.640 --> 0:17:13.160 wasn't a cultural dialogue about these things and these people 0:17:13.160 --> 0:17:16.240 who like you. From the beginning of time, you associate 0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:18.520 Madonna with gay men. They're around her in every video, 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:21.000 you know, you watch the Open Your Heart video, and 0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:24.119 she's like kind of performing being a fabulous woman for 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:26.480 a young gay boy. Like there's just something embedded in 0:17:26.520 --> 0:17:30.000 her that was always I'm orienting this towards gayness, you know, 0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:31.800 even if other people didn't detect it. 0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:34.280 I'm thinking a lot now about how you said that 0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:36.760 the average Madonna fan is like a white thirty eight 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:39.159 year old gay man, and now I'm thinking about how 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:43.199 Madonna's politic is that of like a white thirty eight 0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:45.320 year old gay man like her, well. 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:47.440 Older than that, honestly, right, Yeah. 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:49.080 But it's like her, it's like her brain is like 0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:51.680 trapped in this, you know, in this era. 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:54.960 I think the deal is she her instinct is to 0:17:55.040 --> 0:17:57.720 lead with sort of agro politics, right, she went, like 0:17:57.760 --> 0:18:00.679 in your face whatever, But she doesn't always back that 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:04.640 up with like the credulity, like the knowledge of exactly 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:06.080 what is happening at that given moment. 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:07.399 So I do miss that a little bit. 0:18:07.440 --> 0:18:10.000 I had a friend once who said Madonna used to 0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:12.760 be the Groucho Marx and now Madonna tends to be 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:17.400 the woman groucho Marx is duping you know no, which 0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:18.920 is like a little rough, but at the same time, 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:22.360 like that was part of her power, that like witty, subversive, 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:24.080 righteous babe thing. 0:18:48.200 --> 0:18:50.240 I kind of want to, like for the virgins, like 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:54.760 maybe paint a picture of like who she was as 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:57.040 a pop star when she emerged on the scene or 0:18:57.040 --> 0:18:59.720 in like the first eras of her life. I want 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:01.639 to know. So I don't even know how to start 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:06.159 doing that. I honestly, if anybody listens to DJ Lewis 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:09.760 of the fourteenth podcast Pop Pantheon, he has this amazing 0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:13.400 breakdown of like all her different eras, but like when 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:16.560 she emerged on the scene with like everybody from Michigan. 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:19.760 Is there any way that you could describe Lewis like 0:19:20.119 --> 0:19:22.320 just Madonna who she was at the beginning? 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:26.760 Yeah, Well, she was like the definitive New York club urchin. 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:30.960 So she was this person who she had classically trained dancer, 0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:33.400 She went to University of Michigan, came to New York. 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:35.879 I mean, as she will now repeat fifty thousand times 0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:38.520 at nauseum, had only thirty five dollars in her pocket, 0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:41.240 and I was like, what is this like like dime 0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:43.400 novel thing she has invented about herself. There's no way 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:45.360 she only had thirty five dollars, but anyway, moving on. 0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:49.200 She should maybe have third thirty five hundred, yeah. 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:53.920 Right, something right. But you know, she was in bands 0:19:53.920 --> 0:19:55.520 for a while. She's a band called The Breakfast Club. 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:58.320 She was in a band called Emmy and So, and 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:00.720 she did like nude photography on this so she just 0:20:00.760 --> 0:20:03.359 had this sort of she really resembled the character in 0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:07.160 Desperately Seeking Susan, and it remains crazy that that movie 0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:09.960