1 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:06,920 Speaker 1: On this episode of News World. In his new book Downriver, 2 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 1: Memoir of a Warrior Poet, Ryan McDermott takes us from 3 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: the front lines of the two thousand and three invasion 4 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 1: of Iraq, where he led an infantry platoon in several 5 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: intense battles, including the Battle for Baghdad as part of 6 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,479 Speaker 1: the Third Infantry Division, through the collapse of Lehman Brothers 7 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: during the two thousand and eight financial crisis, and into 8 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 1: the private struggles of reintegration and post traumatic stress disorder PTSD. 9 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 1: His memoir explores the emotional toll of combat, the burden 10 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 1: of battlefield leadership, and the collapse of identity that follows 11 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: war and ambition. He examines what it means to survive 12 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:47,479 Speaker 1: the battlefield only to face another war at home, with family, 13 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: with memory, and with himself here to talk about his 14 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:53,480 Speaker 1: new book. I am really pleased to welcome my guest, 15 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: Ryan McDermott. He is a US Army veteran who served 16 00:00:57,040 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: from two thousand to two thousand and six, and he 17 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 1: is currently Senior Director of National Security Policy at the 18 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:18,760 Speaker 1: Aerospace Industries Association. Ryan, welcome and thank you for joining 19 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: me on News World. 20 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 2: Mister speaker, thank you for having me on. I'm really 21 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:23,119 Speaker 2: excited to be here. 22 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: Well, I'm really curious, why did you choose to tell 23 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:26,400 Speaker 1: your story? 24 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,320 Speaker 2: Now, that's a great question. You know, I wrote the 25 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 2: book for Catharsis. This has been a project of mine 26 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 2: actually since I was at West Point. There's a scene. 27 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 2: I don't cover it all in the summary, but you know, 28 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 2: as I was applying to West Point when I was 29 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 2: in high school, my family broke apart. My mother and 30 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 2: stepfather divorced, and our home went into foreclosure during my 31 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 2: senior year of high school and I was forced to 32 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 2: move out my mother. At some point later, I ended 33 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 2: up in a hospital and Catholic family took me in 34 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 2: when I was to finish out my high school year 35 00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 2: as I waited for admission. I got admitted to West 36 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 2: Point and I began my writing process there and through 37 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 2: war periodically, i've gone back and sort of written for Catharsis. 38 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 2: That was for me. I wanted to put this out 39 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:14,359 Speaker 2: because I've continued to see friends veterans who've committed suicide. 40 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 2: I'm doing great, but I've seen there's been too many 41 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 2: veterans and also just broader society. You see that, and 42 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:23,079 Speaker 2: also an awareness to the general public. This is a 43 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 2: book for everyone. 44 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 1: You cover a pretty wide slice of life. What was 45 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: your experience like at west Point and would you recommend 46 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 1: it to young people who might listen to this podcast. 47 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 2: Oh, west Point was just an amazing experience, and I'll 48 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 2: have to admit that my book, in terms of that chapter, 49 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 2: I don't go into a lot of the detail. There's 50 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 2: a little bit I touch upon. I take a different 51 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 2: angle because there's a lot of west Point books. But 52 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 2: my son Brandon, who wrote the afterword, is actually a 53 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 2: senior getting ready to graduate, and so that explains the timing. 54 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 2: I wanted my children to have reached adult before putting 55 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 2: this story out, and my youngest daughter is eighteen. But 56 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 2: west Point is an amazing experience. It brings people from everywhere. 57 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 2: You know, I came from a blue collar background and 58 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 2: what was broken home at the time, and the military training, 59 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 2: the discipline, the challenge, the intellectual rigor that was instilled there. 60 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 2: There's also a lot of character development that goes on 61 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 2: at west Point. There's actually a big part of that chapter. 62 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 2: It's really the spiritual introspection that I go into in 63 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 2: a very personal way in that chapter. But it prepared 64 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 2: me for leadership, prepared me for combat ultimately, and I 65 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 2: think a lot of the values that we have as 66 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 2: Americans and sort of West Point is just an amazing institution. 67 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 2: Anybody that's got a child that thinks they want to serve, 68 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 2: I think any of the service academies are a great option. 69 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: You're sort of unusual. I think it's fair to say 70 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: in that you and not only becoming a soldier and 71 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: a leader and learning the things they teach, you're becoming 72 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 1: a poet. You have to explain, I mean, what was 73 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: it that got you to be a poet while you 74 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: were becoming a soldier. 75 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 2: Well, interestingly, West Point has a course where you have 76 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 2: to study literature, you study poem, you have to actually 77 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 2: recite sort of like the Saint Crispin's speech is one 78 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 2: that I did and I love it. It's one of my 79 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 2: favorite speeches of inspiring And at one point we had 80 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 2: to actually write a poem, and so one of those 81 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:26,280 Speaker 2: is in there. And what I found is that poetry 82 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 2: is a great outlet for emotion. And that's how it 83 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 2: fits in the book is you've got the emotion of 84 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 2: the moment expressed along with prose that is in some way, 85 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 2: it's retrospective and more descriptatory. 86 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 1: That's great. You're going through West Point, You're becoming a 87 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: soldier poet. Tell me, where does Lucy show up? 88 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:51,040 Speaker 2: We were acquainted in high school. What's interesting the family 89 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 2: that brought me into their home and I basically live 90 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 2: with them when anytime I came off of break. My 91 00:04:57,480 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 2: mother was for a time in a woman shelter and 92 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:03,480 Speaker 2: rebuilt her life during that time. But the family that 93 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:05,159 Speaker 2: sort of took me and I had my stuff there 94 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 2: and I came back. They lived in the same neighborhood. 95 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:08,239 Speaker 2: They knew Lucy. 96 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: You know. 97 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 2: In terms of the story here, we met right before 98 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 2: nine to eleven. I had gone through Ranger School, her sister. 99 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 2: I had been introduced through my sister. It's a complicated story, 100 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 2: but we met and then we fell in love. In 101 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 2: the aftermath of nine to eleven and the context of 102 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 2: that time, if you can recall, mister Speaker, it was 103 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 2: a lot of uncertainty in the world, both of us, 104 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 2: you know, we were eager to start a family and 105 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 2: that's what kind of brought us together. We have a 106 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 2: lot of commonalities. She's a more private person, so I 107 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 2: don't go into as much detail in her Well. 108 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: I'm not going to try to get you in trouble, 109 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: but just chalk for a minute about one of the 110 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: high points of your life. Was Brandon. Talked just a 111 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:48,159 Speaker 1: little bit about Brandon. 112 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 2: I want to make sure I show all three of 113 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:54,039 Speaker 2: my children equal love. They're all awesome kids. My son, 114 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 2: William is at the University of Central Florida. My daughter 115 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 2: is just graduating high school in the week. We had 116 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 2: Brandon right before the two thousand and three deployment, so 117 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 2: he was born in December of two thousand and two, 118 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 2: so this is a new family. I had my wife, 119 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 2: my son, and we get the orders around Christmas time 120 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 2: in two thousand and two. We're going to be going 121 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:19,239 Speaker 2: to Kuwait Brandon. He has got such discipline and character. 122 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 2: West Point has really molded him from where he was 123 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 2: spiritual development, character development, leader, development, educationally. He's about to commission. 124 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 2: He's going to be an armor officer, and very excited 125 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 2: for him. I think it's the first armored division that's 126 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 2: out at Fort Bliss, but he is very committed to service. 127 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 2: He wrote the afterword and I'll spare that, but I 128 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 2: think it's one of the most powerful parts of. 129 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: The book, I can say as a father, well, you know, 130 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:48,359 Speaker 1: watching your children grow up, watching them develop, gives you 131 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: a whole new life. It's an amazing thing. So you 132 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 1: go to war, you want to have to talk briefly 133 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 1: about that experience. You're right in the middle of the 134 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:57,280 Speaker 1: fighting in Baghdad. 135 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:02,599 Speaker 2: Yeah, So the book covers a few battles. One battle 136 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 2: is we were the first across the border at our 137 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 2: lane and not much resistance fought to Najaf and this 138 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 2: is record pace. We've got to Najah. There's an escarpment 139 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 2: where it's a high ground. We were the first to 140 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 2: go across that. And then there was the storms. There's 141 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 2: a period of time where the sort of sandstorms slowed 142 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 2: us down. The focal point of the book really is 143 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 2: on the actions from the main assault in the Baghdadit 144 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:29,559 Speaker 2: we were the sort of the first through the Karbala gap. 145 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 2: This is a geographic constraint point through and we were 146 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 2: the first mechanized unit to cross the bridge at the 147 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 2: Euphrates River. And this battle hasn't really been written. There's 148 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 2: some articles about it, but this battle I think is 149 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 2: a major battle. There's a historical aspect to the book 150 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 2: I think in covering that piece, so the entire US 151 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 2: Army crossed the bridge at this point, I cover that 152 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 2: in detail, and then the book covers the assault onto 153 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 2: the Saddam International Airport, and I think everyone remembers when 154 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 2: Iraqi I think his name was nickname was Bagdad Bob 155 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 2: said we were all dead. We were on the airfield 156 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 2: at that time when he was making that claim. And 157 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 2: then there's some other stuff in the aftermath in terms 158 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 2: of the transition from major combat operations into the post 159 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 2: major combat sort of the stability operations that I go 160 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 2: into before the redeployment home. 161 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:41,679 Speaker 1: What did you take from that experience when you came home. 162 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 2: That's a great question. We were very proud of what 163 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 2: we did from a military perspective. We were very proud 164 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 2: having executed every single mission. We felt the support of 165 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 2: the country as well. There are groups of people who 166 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 2: sent banners and pictures, and it's hard to say I 167 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 2: took an appreciation for our country. I mean, I really did. 168 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:06,960 Speaker 2: I mean, when you see when you experience something like 169 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 2: that and you see the fabric of society, one of 170 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:14,079 Speaker 2: the sort of high level takeaways I took is how important, 171 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 2: how lucky we are in our country to have what 172 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 2: we have, and just a great appreciation for my family. 173 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 2: I mean, as you're going through there's letters that we've written. 174 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 2: You know, we didn't have technology, so it'd be weeks. 175 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 2: I'd send a letter and she would read it and 176 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 2: it's like two weeks ago, and so you lose touch. 177 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 2: I'm talking in away. It's almost like fragmented, and that's 178 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 2: how a little bit of the memory is because you 179 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:37,439 Speaker 2: see a lot of things you really shouldn't see, and 180 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 2: that's covered in the book. Giving an example, what was 181 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 2: written about is the thunder runs and we're you know, 182 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 2: sort of post combat operations. This is a grizzly detail. 183 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 2: There are dead people, you know, and what do you 184 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 2: do with them? There's a little bit of that. I 185 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:55,680 Speaker 2: try to be unfiltered about the realities of war. There's 186 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 2: a lot I still have with me. 187 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:01,719 Speaker 1: It's truly tragedy because so many people like yourself did 188 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: their jobs brilliantly and it was something we could be 189 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: very proud of it. And in a way, the peak 190 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:10,439 Speaker 1: was the initial period immediately after winning, and from there 191 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: on it just got harder and more difficult. But you've 192 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 1: come home, and when you come home, you make a 193 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 1: really big decision, which is leave the army and go 194 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: into investment banking. Why did you pick investment banking? 195 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:25,839 Speaker 2: Well, there's a gap. There's something in there I want 196 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:28,199 Speaker 2: to cover, mister Speaker, because it's probably one of the 197 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 2: most important parts of the book. It all translates into 198 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 2: the investment banking. So when we got back, we had 199 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 2: two weeks and they said get ready to go back, 200 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 2: and that was a hard thing to sort of swallow. 201 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:42,439 Speaker 2: I didn't immediately just get out. They did a stop loss. 202 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 2: And I think this is a very important part of 203 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 2: the book as I talk about the state side support 204 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 2: of the family and readiness group. And there's a part 205 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:53,199 Speaker 2: of the book where I go into receiving the families 206 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 2: of fallen soldiers for a ceremony to dedicate a tree. 207 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 2: And we started that year thinking, okay, we weren't sure 208 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 2: how much service and sacrifice. You know, you have a mother, 209 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 2: a father, and they're coming. They've already heard from the 210 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 2: casually notification officers, but we had to explain to them, 211 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:13,199 Speaker 2: here's what happened. Your son is a hero. He died 212 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 2: for his country in a worthy cause. There's a scene 213 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 2: there that kind of captures that and there's an evolution 214 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 2: of the people that I served with. These were friends 215 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 2: of mine I had trained with. They went and deployed 216 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 2: that year. They were gone for a full year, and 217 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 2: then they came back and you know, you could see 218 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 2: them different. During that year. I was sort of in 219 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 2: this almost like a disconnection. 220 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 1: Note. 221 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 2: I was reading the Casualty List and I had always 222 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 2: wanted to go back and get my MBA. I looked 223 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 2: at finance and investment banking as like, hey, I thrive 224 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 2: on challenge, and that's a great challenge that I want 225 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 2: to take on. And that's what put me on that path. 226 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 2: And I had a great experience at the business school. 227 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,599 Speaker 2: So that's how I ended up making that sort of transition. 228 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 2: Part of it was, I mean, this is where some guilt. 229 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 2: I put my own money behind this book process. And 230 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:05,079 Speaker 2: the big reason why is, you know, I left the 231 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 2: Army early and there's a part of me that feels 232 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 2: somewhat guilty. This is the part of the PTSD, you know, 233 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 2: of a survivor's guilt or whatever. 234 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 1: You know. 235 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 2: I wanted to put a story out there that appreciates 236 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 2: the service because there are people that served multiple tours 237 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 2: years of their life overseas. I can talk specifics about 238 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 2: the process. But once we got to business school, we 239 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 2: had our son during that year when everyone else was deployed, 240 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 2: and then we had our daughter right as we went 241 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 2: to business school, so we had a full family in 242 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 2: our house. And this is right before the two thousand 243 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:38,719 Speaker 2: and seven or two thousand and eight financial crisis. 244 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: You're at Lehman Brothers, You're doing well in Boom. There's 245 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: a real crisis. What was that like? You must have felt, 246 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 1: on one hand, well, everything's gone perfectly, and then the 247 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 1: following morninggo well, maybe not well. 248 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 2: I have to say that the year before two thousand 249 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,960 Speaker 2: and seven, when I did the internship, there's some signs 250 00:12:57,960 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 2: out there there was a hedge fund that went under. 251 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 2: But I talked about how the iPhone came out that 252 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 2: summer and it was just a boom peak year, and 253 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 2: there's a scene where I talk about the boom bus cycle. 254 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:09,719 Speaker 2: So at the end of the summer I signed up. 255 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 2: I had money. That money helped me get through my 256 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 2: second year of business school, the signing bonus, and when 257 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 2: we showed up, I have to admit, like when we 258 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 2: showed up, it was kind of clear things were rocky 259 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 2: at Lehman. They had moved through multiple waves of layoffs. 260 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 2: The stress was very high because if you didn't pass tests, 261 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:29,680 Speaker 2: you were gone, and so that exacerbated and when it 262 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 2: went under. The friday before Lehman went under, we actually 263 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 2: had sort of like a wine tasting event, and you know, 264 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 2: it's celebrating the end of our training and literally that 265 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:42,680 Speaker 2: weekend is when the bankruptcy happened. 266 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:45,839 Speaker 1: So how do you deal with that? Are you now 267 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 1: part of a bankrupt company? Are they still paying you 268 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 1: or what's going on? 269 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 2: Well, what happened is Barkley's Capital, bock Bank and the 270 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 2: people and so they did sort of a post merger integration. 271 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 2: The folks from their company come over, ours come over, 272 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 2: and there are some bankers that a lot of people 273 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:07,479 Speaker 2: were looking where to go, you know, people with relationships 274 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 2: potentially look to go to other places. They had to 275 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 2: lock down a certain number of senior bankers to complete 276 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 2: the deal, but at the junior level you're sort of expendable. 277 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 2: You're just sort of in the wake of all the 278 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 2: tidal wave that was going on back then. 279 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: From your perspective, you've come out of the military in 280 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 1: a military campaign which has its own turmoil. And now 281 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 1: you've had business school, which sort of seems stable, and 282 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: then you've got a job in a very famous institution 283 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: which suddenly wasn't stable. How do you deal with this 284 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: up and down? It's like writing an amazing roller coaster. 285 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: Are you out looking for work? 286 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 2: Yeah? Eventually I did. And there's some parts that are 287 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 2: intentionally like vague. I eventually lost the job, but then 288 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 2: I had a bridge job. And this is the piece 289 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 2: that's a little bit vague, is the deterioration of the 290 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 2: marriage and our separation, which is how the book begins 291 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 2: that I'm at this rock bottom moment. One thing I 292 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 2: wanted to talk about though, during this whole bankruptcy process. 293 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 2: One of the things that hit me was, and this 294 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 2: is how the story from Iraq ties into this, is 295 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 2: there is a friend of mine from the basic course 296 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 2: who I introduced in the story. His name is Travis 297 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 2: Patrick Quinn, and Travis Patrick Quinn. There's a book written 298 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 2: about him, just about him that I sort of gave 299 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 2: some background to the author from. He was very important 300 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 2: as Sony Awakening in two thousand and six. He was 301 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 2: this captain who was able to bridge relationships with the 302 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 2: sunny shakes, And the bottom line is he died, and 303 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 2: I think it was two thousand and six. It was 304 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 2: essentially the same time the day I was on Wall 305 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 2: Street networking for a job. I didn't realize he had 306 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 2: died until two years later. And the moment that I 307 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 2: realized it was like mentioned on a television program about 308 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 2: him because sort of a high profile contributions to what 309 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 2: became the surge and so forth. We were on a mission. 310 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 2: We literally freezing cold weather in the lowlands of Georgia 311 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 2: during the basic course, and he kept me warm so 312 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 2: it didn't get hypothermia. I mean, that's the kind of 313 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 2: bond we soldiers have. And so when I learned that 314 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 2: he died, it had an effect on me, and I 315 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 2: felt enormously guilty that once I got to business school, 316 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 2: I didn't keep track of the casualty list. I stopped 317 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 2: paying attention to those who were sacrificing for our country. 318 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: When you are dealing with all this, it becomes very personal, 319 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: and I think for a period there it sort of 320 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 1: shook your core commitment and core sense of optimism. How 321 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: did you deal with that? How did you come to 322 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 1: grips with sort of restructuring yourself. 323 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 2: That's a great question. It took a moment where I broke. 324 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 2: There's a great quote from Hemingway and it has to 325 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 2: the world breaks everyone from a farewell to arms. That's 326 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:19,199 Speaker 2: in sort of quote at the end, you're strong up 327 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 2: the broke places. Once I hit this point, I sought 328 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 2: out counseling. This realization that I needed to talk to someone. 329 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 2: Now I don't say this explicitly, but that's kind of 330 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 2: the goal is make myself vulnerable, show that I went 331 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 2: through counseling. That's how the book is broken up. There's 332 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 2: four different counseling sessions. They're dramatized, but to reflect the 333 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 2: real process. And so that was really important is to 334 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 2: be able to talk to somebody, get that mirror respect, 335 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:47,439 Speaker 2: and that really helped me get on that path. And 336 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 2: I have to say, up until that point in time, 337 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:53,919 Speaker 2: I was really focused on my career as sort of 338 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 2: the means and end. And what I realized at the 339 00:17:57,359 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 2: end of it, and this is kind of a spoiler, 340 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,439 Speaker 2: is that's my children. You know, their well being. The 341 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 2: focal point of what really matters is their well being 342 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 2: and making sure that things are lining up, that my 343 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,360 Speaker 2: world is built around that foundation of the family. 344 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 1: Now you had separated at one point, but you sort 345 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: of come full circle when you are with Lucy and 346 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 1: you go back up to West Point to celebrate brands 347 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: Cross of twenty twenty five Ring weekend, and now you're 348 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:34,120 Speaker 1: watching him parade. Talk about that, talk about the emotion, well. 349 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 2: That emotion, you know, and the reconciliation process with Lucy 350 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 2: over the years, through COVID and everything. Just enormous pride. 351 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 2: I got to walk do a walk march out when 352 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:46,679 Speaker 2: they were just out of their basic course. They do 353 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,639 Speaker 2: a march back from this camp all the way back 354 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:52,440 Speaker 2: to West Points about twelve miles. And I have to say, 355 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 2: all these kids, all these young men and women, they're 356 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 2: choosing to serve after twenty years of war, they've seen 357 00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 2: that's the history. So Brandon, he is very humble. He 358 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 2: would like say, is just honored. He's humble to be 359 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 2: amongst that group. You know, it was a very emotional 360 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 2: moment because as a parent, you know, I feel it's 361 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 2: like I can never do enough. But he's very gracious 362 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 2: in that moment. 363 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:19,439 Speaker 1: Your story is both very personal and part of the 364 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,679 Speaker 1: history of the country. If you could summarize it. What 365 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: do you hope people will take from your story? 366 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 2: Well, one thing I hope people take from it is 367 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 2: there's a lot of introspection in thinking about how the 368 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:35,160 Speaker 2: past the sort of prologue to where we are today, 369 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:39,119 Speaker 2: My life is prologue for my children's life. If you 370 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 2: sort of rationalize the past a little bit, it can 371 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 2: do a lot of good towards focusing on what matters 372 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 2: for the future. Inspiring that introspection, there was a gentleman 373 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 2: who came out. He was a veteran, had gone through 374 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,439 Speaker 2: some a difficult time a divorce. Recently. I had shared 375 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:58,160 Speaker 2: my book and he was very, very sort of appreciative 376 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 2: because I think it helped him feel connected to something 377 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 2: like that. But I think General Population Downriver is a 378 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,920 Speaker 2: book that if you want to sort of an appreciation 379 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,639 Speaker 2: for that whole experience twenty thirty years from now, it 380 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 2: does kind of capture some of those moments like Iraq 381 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 2: Lehman Brothers, even nine to eleven, Like what it was 382 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 2: like back then. 383 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:22,120 Speaker 1: Reminded me of Faulkner in paraphrasing. We said one time 384 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: that the past has never passed. It's always with us 385 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 1: and is always part of the fabric of our life, 386 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 1: and I think that that's in a sense what you capture. 387 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 1: And I think the idea of being a warrior poet 388 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: is something we could use a lot more of in 389 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: the American system. Ran, I want to thank you for 390 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 1: joining me. Your new book, Downriver Memoir of a Warrior 391 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 1: Poet is available now in Amazon and in bookstores everywhere, 392 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,439 Speaker 1: and I appreciate so much you're sharing your life with 393 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 1: the rest of us. 394 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 2: Mister speaker, thank you for having me on today. 395 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest Ryan McDermott. You can get 396 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 1: a link to buy his new book, Downriver Memoir of 397 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 1: a Warrior Poet on our show page at newtsworld dot com. 398 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: Newtsworld is produced by Gingrash three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our 399 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 1: executive producer is Guarnsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. 400 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 1: The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. 401 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,679 Speaker 1: Special thanks to the team at Gaishtree sixty. If you've 402 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 1: been enjoying Nutsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast 403 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,439 Speaker 1: and both rate us with five stars and give us 404 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: a review so others can learn what it's all about. 405 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of Newtsworld can sign up for my 406 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 1: three freeweekly columns at gingristree sixty dot com slash newsletter. 407 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: I'm Newt Gingrich. This is Newtsworld.