Speaker 1: Of the law and order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.
Speaker 2: We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
Speaker 2: vicious felonies.
Speaker 3: These episodes are based on. These are our stories. Done done, Yay.
Speaker 2: Welcome to That's Messed Up an SVU podcast.
Speaker 3: My name is Lisa, my name is Kara, and we're
Speaker 3: your hosts.
Speaker 1: We talk about an SVU episode that we choose, We
Speaker 1: talk about the true crime it's based on, and we
Speaker 1: interview a guest from the episode usually or sometimes and
Speaker 1: sometimes we don't. And today we've got a great episode
Speaker 1: for you. But before we get started, we like to chot,
Speaker 1: We like to catch up. We like to talk about
Speaker 1: what's going on in the world.
Speaker 2: You know it is shocking, Oh yeah them, because you
Speaker 2: said we choose these episodes. Like the amount of people
Speaker 2: I've been meeting out and about in the world who
Speaker 2: are watching from season one, Like who are going in
Speaker 2: and doing it in order is wild. Yeah, I'm at
Speaker 2: like five people in the last few months. They're like,
Speaker 2: I'm watching it from the start. I'm on seventeen or
Speaker 2: season and I'm like, what the fuck, Like, I don't even.
Speaker 3: Know if I went to that. I don't.
Speaker 1: I mean, I definitely haven't. I watched it from when
Speaker 1: it started, but I would miss episodes all the time
Speaker 1: and then just like now catch them on USA a
Speaker 1: million times. You know, like I've never straight gone through.
Speaker 2: But that's a new way of life with all these streamers.
Speaker 2: It just so oh. It also just seems actually have
Speaker 2: someone that I know personally, I should see how their
Speaker 2: journey is going.
Speaker 3: Actually, I know.
Speaker 1: While my other question is like I pay for Hulu, right,
Speaker 1: and I pay without the ads because I do this
Speaker 1: the recaps and I can't have ads or whatever. But
Speaker 1: Disney Plus and Hulu are now part of each other.
Speaker 1: So can I now watch SVU on Disney?
Speaker 3: Is that an me? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Because my Hulu comes with Max, I feel and I
Speaker 2: have to some shows do show up when I google
Speaker 2: them in Hulu or maybe.
Speaker 1: I'm going to go into my Disney app right now
Speaker 1: and see if I can literally wait, but I didn't
Speaker 1: know because I am been craving some Simpsons and I
Speaker 1: haven't watched in a while, and I feel like I
Speaker 1: got to get some Disney Plus in my life.
Speaker 2: Wait did I tell you this? I don't know if
Speaker 2: I feel like I've already mentioned on the pod. But
Speaker 2: this meme came up in my thing again and you
Speaker 2: have that Disney princess joke, but it's all the Disney princesses,
Speaker 2: and it's like, who do you think.
Speaker 3: Would win in like a murder? Like who's winning in
Speaker 3: a fight?
Speaker 2: And they're like, Mulan has a body count or like
Speaker 2: a murder count of two thousand. She defeated the Huns,
Speaker 2: like no white as a chance?
Speaker 3: Does Mulan ever even wear a dress?
Speaker 1: Like does she ever even like you know, like Mulan
Speaker 1: is in fighting garb ready to go.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but there's some dresses in the beginning. That's what
Speaker 2: she escapes it. Remember they're trying to marry her off
Speaker 2: with the match with the matchmaker.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, just started Mulan the other day.
Speaker 1: Yes, I want your kids watching Mulan. Yeah yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I really want them. You have them.
Speaker 2: I got well, now that I know that Rosie is
Speaker 2: so into New York, look what I got her?
Speaker 3: What these sticks? Oh my god, are they so cute?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: I also got these pigeon ones, but I don't know. Sorry,
Speaker 2: you guys can't see the stickers.
Speaker 3: No, those are so cute.
Speaker 1: They're cute and y see theme stickers, Well she's gonna
Speaker 1: love those. And also I know, since I know you
Speaker 1: love to pick up nick knacks, my kids have. Now
Speaker 1: we've amassed so many enamel pins from like you know,
Speaker 1: you guys bring us cool enamel pins to our live
Speaker 1: shows and you know, just like you'll go anywhere and
Speaker 1: you get like an enamel pin, and like we have
Speaker 1: TMU enamel pins and stuff.
Speaker 3: So I bought these, Like I bought these like.
Speaker 1: Cloth banners that now hang on the wall and they
Speaker 1: have all their pins up on them, so like now
Speaker 1: they're basically they started like a collection and I've just
Speaker 1: divided them between them and like they have you know,
Speaker 1: so they've got like drag pins and like all kinds
Speaker 1: of fun pins.
Speaker 3: Like somebody at a live show, so kind of flag
Speaker 3: is it? What is this thing? Literally No, it's like it's.
Speaker 1: Like a beige piece of canvas that it hangs, you know.
Speaker 1: So it's like let's let this let's let the NML
Speaker 1: pins do the heavy lifting. And then it's like they
Speaker 1: just we sort of did a thing where they divided
Speaker 1: them up. They were like I want this one, I
Speaker 1: want that one, and it's like I have like a
Speaker 1: big business bet Middler one from a listener and like, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I have one of those two Ecdo cooler from listeners. True,
Speaker 1: I think somebody gave me Lydia Dietz's mother from Beetlejuice one.
Speaker 1: So like they have already a very impressive plus ones
Speaker 1: that I get at DragCon and stuff. So the pin
Speaker 1: collection is popping. If you see anything that you think
Speaker 1: would go good with the well, probably in.
Speaker 2: My house because also my hairdresser here in New York.
Speaker 2: She hairdresser is such an old timey term.
Speaker 3: It totally is that I sety it don't a way
Speaker 3: and was like, what am I seventy? Yeah, I can't
Speaker 3: believe we're both saying it.
Speaker 2: But her daughter just got really into the Simpsons and
Speaker 2: I was like, oh honey, I'm still unpacking you.
Speaker 3: About trash gifts.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll get some trash going your way. But so
Speaker 2: I'm going to be finding pins here all the time.
Speaker 2: But as some of you have seen on the internet,
Speaker 2: you know, manya, our family pet Yes is no longer alive,
Speaker 2: so I definitely went and.
Speaker 3: Spent some money. You have talked.
Speaker 1: About the many times she has walked in while we've
Speaker 1: been podcasting I feel she was the official pet of
Speaker 1: the podcast and we are so so sad that she
Speaker 1: but she had a long beautiful she.
Speaker 3: Was treated amazing. But yes, I don't know. I know
Speaker 3: your parents will get another one.
Speaker 2: No, but my dad feeds a street cat perfect and
Speaker 2: twice a day and he comes around. But I think
Speaker 2: the cat knows what's up because he's been now fully
Speaker 2: hanging out with my dad in the garden and like
Speaker 2: rubbing on his legs. So I think because the street
Speaker 2: cat drove Manya, like they obviously had a rivalry, and
Speaker 2: so maybe the cat now knows. I just hope the
Speaker 2: cat runs in because they're not planning on getting another cat.
Speaker 2: They're pretty heartbroken, and you know, by the end of
Speaker 2: a pet's life, it is a lot of it is
Speaker 2: a lot of work or a humans, you know, it's
Speaker 2: a lot of work, right, So they're very sad. My
Speaker 2: mom hasn't gone back into her room. She's sleeping in
Speaker 2: my room.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, she like can't go back in there.
Speaker 3: So I don't think they're ready.
Speaker 2: But I'm just hoping the street cat just runs inside
Speaker 2: and doesn't leave. Yeah, but I also think this cat's
Speaker 2: a little bit slutty and is running ruling the neighborhood.
Speaker 2: I think she's getting fed and hanging out like I
Speaker 2: think she's a little sneaky.
Speaker 1: She's a Heathcliff. She's like Heathcliff. If you ever watched
Speaker 1: the Heathcliff cartoon.
Speaker 3: No, I don't even know what it is.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, Heathcliff was like, well, the Heathcliffe was
Speaker 1: a boy, but he was like this street cat that
Speaker 1: was like, quote unquote terrorizing the neighborhood.
Speaker 3: Heathcliff, Heathcliff, No one should terrorrize. He does look like Gartfield,
Speaker 3: Like what's going on? He does?
Speaker 1: He's literally like an off brand Garfield for Nicolo and
Speaker 1: I will have you know that I yesterday went to
Speaker 1: take and I took my kids to the Garfield movie
Speaker 1: was so it was so hot and we just needed
Speaker 1: to go be somewhere inside.
Speaker 3: I thought it was really funny.
Speaker 1: It got like panned, and I was like, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of funny jokes in this movie, Like, there are
Speaker 1: just a lot of good jokes in it. Look the
Speaker 1: plots a little crazy, kids don't care like you know,
Speaker 1: but our friend Janelle does a little voice in it. Wow,
Speaker 1: dog is a voice in it as a cat twist,
Speaker 1: you know, there's it's cute.
Speaker 3: I thought it was cute.
Speaker 1: I mean, and I've sat through some shit with for
Speaker 1: my kids that I'm like, this movie is terrible, But
Speaker 1: I thought Garfield was pretty fun funny.
Speaker 3: I had a VHS.
Speaker 2: I wish I remember what it was called, but it
Speaker 2: was like the Jungle King, but it was like a
Speaker 2: Lion King ripoff kind of.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I found it.
Speaker 2: It was the Jungle King and I'm looking at photos
Speaker 2: of it now, like so funny, even down to the
Speaker 2: hyena like look, but the hyena has an ayah iago
Speaker 2: on his shoulder.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I had this VHS and I am in a different
Speaker 2: universe right now. But yeah, my parents are, you know,
Speaker 2: they're sad. My dad sent me a really sad photo.
Speaker 2: I sent them flowers and it's him next to the
Speaker 2: flowers holding the pillow of mania that I got them
Speaker 2: for a holiday.
Speaker 3: And I'm like, this is a little too sad, But
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 2: It was she was older, you know, that's yeah, that's life. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: she was really pretty and everyone that wrote stuff, you know,
Speaker 2: I did end up posting and my mom does like
Speaker 2: reading all the comments. Yeah, and it was just nice
Speaker 2: people being like what a perfect little tourity with an attitude,
Speaker 2: because yeah, she.
Speaker 3: Did have she was very particular.
Speaker 1: I can't remember if she even let me touch her
Speaker 1: when I went to your house. Do you think she
Speaker 1: did No, I think I saw her, but she didn't
Speaker 1: like run away, but I did not.
Speaker 3: I don't think I attempted.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 2: But she also had a special bond with Talia. She's
Speaker 2: and so she would sit on Talia during their like
Speaker 2: grandparent visit days.
Speaker 3: So like they had a lovely time.
Speaker 2: But you know, it's kind of they Yeah, my parents
Speaker 2: had a different experience than any of us because I
Speaker 2: mean we've had it for so long that like my
Speaker 2: mom wasn't even retired, so like she would get ready
Speaker 2: for work and do her makeup in the bathroom and
Speaker 2: Manya would like drink from the fawcet.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, they had like a cute little time.
Speaker 1: But you know, and when you were like at home
Speaker 1: a bit during the pandemic, we were recording your Manya
Speaker 1: was always around, like you were always like there was
Speaker 1: Bailey and Manya.
Speaker 2: You know, I just feel, you know, it's like good
Speaker 2: for old people to have things to do. And I
Speaker 2: liked that, and so I would like this street cat
Speaker 2: to become more of a wait have you seen I
Speaker 2: guess it's a series, but I only saw one clip
Speaker 2: of it. But this mom found a VHS player at
Speaker 2: a garage. Sound was like, Oh, I'm gonna like show
Speaker 2: up my kids all my old Disney movies.
Speaker 3: This is great.
Speaker 2: And now it's the kids are just calling each other
Speaker 2: street rat, you know, like.
Speaker 3: You're a street rat. No, you're a street rat.
Speaker 2: And then they watched Pocahontas and they started calling each
Speaker 2: other savage, and the mom's like, wait, I need to
Speaker 2: do something about, like what's going on? And then they
Speaker 2: one hundred one Dalmatians and I guess the kid. I
Speaker 2: haven't seen these. I only watched the I only saw
Speaker 2: the Aladdin one. But my friend was telling me that
Speaker 2: the kid took like a plastic golf club they have
Speaker 2: and pretended it was a pipe because because the.
Speaker 1: Guys, the father smokes the pipe and then Kruella smokes
Speaker 1: cigarettes and like, I mean kind of makes.
Speaker 3: It look cool. I mean, I I hate to say it,
Speaker 3: so yeah, it was. It's just like this little modern
Speaker 3: kid is acting a fool.
Speaker 2: No, I mean I was watching you have to like,
Speaker 2: but street Rat is funny.
Speaker 1: Okay, So my kids love love Freakin' Aladdin, So I'm
Speaker 1: sure that Rosie has said street Rat at some point.
Speaker 1: But we were watching TB, which is like free TV
Speaker 1: because they Rosie likes the way that the beginning of
Speaker 1: to Be goes to be to Be, like she likes.
Speaker 3: The opening of it.
Speaker 1: And then they were watching Casper Old Casper the Friendly Ghost,
Speaker 1: and like there's fully one where Casper goes on to
Speaker 1: like a Native American reservation, but it's like it's very dated.
Speaker 3: They're all talking.
Speaker 1: And like you know, Broken England, It's like that, and
Speaker 1: so I was like, okay, okay, so they're saying Indian,
Speaker 1: but you're this is Native American people, Like I was,
Speaker 1: these are indigenous people, like these are people that lived
Speaker 1: here before us. I was like trying to like erase
Speaker 1: what they were seeing as they were seeing it. And like,
Speaker 1: cause Disney does disclaimer at the beginning of like all
Speaker 1: their movies now that are all really these contained stereotypes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you cannot fast forward in it. It goes for like
Speaker 1: eleven or twelve seconds. But my kids can't read, so
Speaker 1: they're just like all right, let's go loaded into my consciousness.
Speaker 1: So I'm trying to be like, you know, and Jared'll
Speaker 1: be like, you know, this is really actually a fictional
Speaker 1: place where they are. They're not really in old Arabia,
Speaker 1: Like this is really not Agraba's not real, you know.
Speaker 1: So like we're trying to tell them that, like none
Speaker 1: of that stuff is real. But yeah, street Rats kind
Speaker 1: of a funny. What if I just learned that Agriba
Speaker 1: is not a real place. I didn't know, Jared' said I.
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't know, maybe it is from
Speaker 1: ancient like I haven't studied ancient, you know, or Arabian places.
Speaker 3: But boy is sacked. I mean, Aladdin is top tiered
Speaker 3: like that. It's the best, the music, the genie. I
Speaker 3: do have a story. I have a huge story.
Speaker 2: Remember I texted Kara and Casey in a group text
Speaker 2: and I said, this is you'll understand.
Speaker 3: So I and I'm.
Speaker 2: Gonna put it on the internet. I taped I came
Speaker 2: home and I was like in heaven. So I was
Speaker 2: like taping myself.
Speaker 3: Talking about it.
Speaker 1: But so you might see it on the internet if
Speaker 1: my dude Matt decides to post.
Speaker 3: So my friend of DT from India's in town.
Speaker 2: So we're just walking around, taking a long way, and
Speaker 2: we're walking home and I usually take this one other path,
Speaker 2: but you seem worried.
Speaker 3: What happened? No, that sounds like the beginning of an SVU.
Speaker 3: Oh oh yeah, No, no, no.
Speaker 1: I didn't take my normal root like I took a
Speaker 1: short cut down an alley even though I've like never
Speaker 1: seen an alley.
Speaker 3: In New York City.
Speaker 2: No, just you know, cause I get when people come
Speaker 2: to visit, and you saw this when my friend Alex came,
Speaker 2: I do go insane and I kind of overplan and
Speaker 2: I want everything to be right and I want them
Speaker 2: to see everything, and everyone just wants to chill out
Speaker 2: and I am like spiraling, And so that happened. I
Speaker 2: was like, Oh, I don't want to take the street.
Speaker 2: I'll take this other street. It's more busy, more people
Speaker 2: are out. I wanted to like see stuff that that
Speaker 2: street's too sleepy. So we're walking back to my house
Speaker 2: in a roote I never go and I clock this
Speaker 2: young couple walking towards us, and they're like a like
Speaker 2: a punky rock looking couple. And I thought to myself,
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, they look really cute, like they are
Speaker 2: other cute. I wonder, you know, if they're like just
Speaker 2: started to date or something. And we walk past each
Speaker 2: other and the man turns to me and goes, Walrus
Speaker 2: horror movie and I go tusk and they start laughing
Speaker 2: and I go, what's going on? And he goes, well,
Speaker 2: she was telling me about this movie and I thought
Speaker 2: it wasn't real, but I guess it is. And I go, oh,
Speaker 2: it's real, and you caught the right person. I saw
Speaker 2: it open.
Speaker 1: I saw it opening week in the movie theater and
Speaker 1: they go, you saw it in the theater?
Speaker 3: I go yeah. My friend, our friend Megan, was like,
Speaker 3: piss to me, what is happening? I thought this was
Speaker 3: like in your stand up and they reckon you.
Speaker 1: He literally just said Walrus horror movie to a random girl,
Speaker 1: Oh my god, and it happened to be.
Speaker 2: Me and I knew it and I go tusk and
Speaker 2: it was just this wild thing and I was in
Speaker 2: such bla.
Speaker 3: I was like, it's a.
Speaker 2: Walk by movie game, Like this is all I've been
Speaker 2: planning and training for my whole life.
Speaker 1: Because it's like he didn't go excuse me, miss, like
Speaker 1: do you have a second for me? To like settle
Speaker 1: an argument between me and my girl. Like it was
Speaker 1: just like Walrus's horror movie.
Speaker 3: And I went like, I was like ready to go.
Speaker 3: He's like, Hi, I'm the living cinema trix. Yes, I
Speaker 3: like all I do is play movie. It was like
Speaker 3: in the wild.
Speaker 2: It's like all of my training came to be in
Speaker 2: this like one moment. But I was telling a friend
Speaker 2: about it, and I go, I do like the genre.
Speaker 2: I saw human centipete open, I saw teeth like, I
Speaker 2: don't know what it is, but I like these weird
Speaker 2: surgery situations. But then I called my mom because I
Speaker 2: was like, you won't believe what happened. I'm like, this
Speaker 2: is the best thing that's ever happened to me. And
Speaker 2: so I'm telling my mom and then she goes, we'll
Speaker 2: explain the movie to me. And I was like, oh,
Speaker 2: you're not gonna want to hear it. But it's about
Speaker 2: a man surgically making another man into a wallrist. And
Speaker 2: she just was like, no, no, no, yeah, have you
Speaker 2: you haven't seen it?
Speaker 3: Right? Obviously you don't excre me.
Speaker 1: I mean, can I just I want you to google
Speaker 1: because it's so Google justin Long Tusk and watch your
Speaker 1: nightmares unravel. No no, no, no no no no no no.
Speaker 1: I can't even I couldn't even finish the promo for
Speaker 1: Human Centipede when it came out. I started watching it
Speaker 1: because everyone was talking about it, and then I was
Speaker 1: like no, no, no, no no no, Like that's the opposite
Speaker 1: of anything I can watch, like I don't. I can
Speaker 1: sometimes do horror, but like that, like, have you ever
Speaker 1: watched like David Cronenberg movies because he's like the body
Speaker 1: horror guy and Jared loves that shit. I mean, that
Speaker 1: is so funny that that happened for you, Like I can't.
Speaker 2: It was every It was everything I could have ever wanted.
Speaker 2: But I texted our friend and a DT was probably
Speaker 2: like the Magic of New York. I mean, like we
Speaker 2: knew how much. Thinking Sheila it went, I know how
Speaker 2: much this means to She just was laughing. She goes,
Speaker 2: I can't believe that just happened. And I understand and
Speaker 2: I go, yeah. But then I texted our friend and
Speaker 2: I was just like, you won't believe what just happened
Speaker 2: to me?
Speaker 3: Because I made her go see it.
Speaker 2: She goes, we went Opening Night and she goes, I
Speaker 2: remember spitting out my flatbread sandwich.
Speaker 3: I remember we got Cozy. Do you remember Cozy? Oh?
Speaker 3: It was my favorite place. Yeah, because they got the
Speaker 3: best vegetarian. Oh.
Speaker 1: The tomato soup from Cozy was my favorite thing, and
Speaker 1: I would drive miles out of my way to get it.
Speaker 1: In Connecticut and when I worked at when I worked
Speaker 1: at one of the Nickelodeon buildings was right across from
Speaker 1: like the winter like the theater that like Mama Mia
Speaker 1: played out forever on fiftieth on Broadway. You know, Cozy
Speaker 1: right across the street. I ate it for lunch three
Speaker 1: times a week, like I'm obsessed.
Speaker 3: That's so funny.
Speaker 2: I would get the flatbread sandwich with the hummus like
Speaker 2: tomato cucumber like that one all the time.
Speaker 1: I like the capresee they had a hot capreisee.
Speaker 2: Our friend was like, is it's still in business? I'm
Speaker 2: like no, it wasn't actually good.
Speaker 1: No, it was like good Brokes, Like I was a
Speaker 1: broke executive assistant. That's like what I ate, you know,
Speaker 1: like will lunch be under ten dollars?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess I ate it.
Speaker 2: When I was a salon receptionist, Yeah, it was my
Speaker 2: salon receptioning day is but yeah, she goes, I still
Speaker 2: remember spitting out my sandwich and I.
Speaker 3: Go, yeah, that was it.
Speaker 2: And I was like to be walking on a different
Speaker 2: street and just be whispered that. But I was in
Speaker 2: such a shock I walked away. I wish I was like,
Speaker 2: when did you see it? What are you guys talking like?
Speaker 2: I wish I just knew more about them, But it
Speaker 2: was such a like moment.
Speaker 3: I couldn't even believe it that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so hopefully I didn't overhype it to you guys,
Speaker 2: but that is the best thing that's ever happened to me.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Wait, now, of course I'm on the Wikipedia page for
Speaker 1: Cozy and they had some problems in the pandemic bankruptcy
Speaker 1: but they were trying to reopen. But it seems yeah,
Speaker 1: twenty twenty February actually.
Speaker 3: Right before the pandemic. It's like they can't even blame
Speaker 3: the pandemic.
Speaker 1: They literally filed chapter eleven the month before the pandemic
Speaker 1: really went down.
Speaker 3: I don't know it was.
Speaker 2: I mean it was like a Panera style If you're like,
Speaker 2: what is that. It's like fast casual, but like Panera
Speaker 2: lunch spot, A.
Speaker 1: Lot of a lot of salads and flat bread sandwiches,
Speaker 1: but they're bread was like it was like rusty was
Speaker 1: like this crunchy.
Speaker 3: I really did like the.
Speaker 1: Bread was so good and it was a little bit salty,
Speaker 1: and it was so good, like soft with a little crunch.
Speaker 3: It was so good. It only existed in case you
Speaker 3: think you're going crazy. New York, d C.
Speaker 1: Virginia, Pennsylvania, mass Connecticut, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, so that's what. So only like ten states
Speaker 3: or something.
Speaker 2: Oh so Adit does a really funny joke. I went
Speaker 2: to her show and she talks about how like, when
Speaker 2: you travel to India, it's called like bombay belly because
Speaker 2: you're gonna get like diarrhea and stuff.
Speaker 3: Uh huh.
Speaker 2: And then she goes, but it's the opposite when you
Speaker 2: come to America, you get so much constipation.
Speaker 1: They call it Connecticut clot. I love it. I laughed
Speaker 1: a lot. That's so funny. Go Connecticut. We're so we're
Speaker 1: good for that.
Speaker 3: Let some start the episode.
Speaker 1: But before we get going, I wanted to point out
Speaker 1: that a major character in this episode is played by
Speaker 1: Martin Mull, the actor, and since we recorded the actual
Speaker 1: meat of the episode, he passed away just a few
Speaker 1: days ago, so when this episode comes out, he will
Speaker 1: have passed away like a week ago, and we didn't
Speaker 1: know that, which is why obviously we were in the
Speaker 1: time machine. We didn't mention it when we were talking
Speaker 1: about his illustrious career. We were trying to get him.
Speaker 1: We were trying to Yeah, we tried to get him
Speaker 1: for the podcast. He turned it down. But I also
Speaker 1: found out he went to my high school. I didn't
Speaker 1: realize he's like one of the esteemed alumni of my
Speaker 1: high school. And you know, my siblings were like one
Speaker 1: of them knew and was like, you didn't know that
Speaker 1: he's like one of our only good alums. And I
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, in my mind, we're only a culture
Speaker 1: and Catherine Heigel and I don't know if either one
Speaker 1: is good, but like I know Ann Culters.
Speaker 3: And I think Catherine high Gall is good. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Catherine was just a little bitchy, like yeah, so crazy.
Speaker 3: I think she was like I think she's having like.
Speaker 2: Shit about the wrong people, like she just you know
Speaker 2: people because people love Gray's Anatomy and Shondaland and then people.
Speaker 2: Really that was the jud Appatoo Heyday rogue, like and
Speaker 2: it's like.
Speaker 1: Other actors are like getting in bed with the assistant
Speaker 1: directors in the middle of the night without asking, and
Speaker 1: people are like, he's just a drunk, fun guy, you know,
Speaker 1: Like we don't let a woman be a bitch for
Speaker 1: like ten seconds, so I do think we should give
Speaker 1: her a pass. Although in high school, you know, everybody
Speaker 1: thought everybody was just so jealous of her that everybody
Speaker 1: was like, what a bitch, And I was like, I
Speaker 1: think we just all want to be her. She's in
Speaker 1: the Bahamas making a movie with Gerard de Pardeux. That's
Speaker 1: wildly inappropriate about acting like you're dating your dad. We
Speaker 1: were a big Purdue fan, We were a big household.
Speaker 3: We loved him. I don't know why.
Speaker 2: It's kind of psychotic, but what we also they were
Speaker 2: He was either in the Man in the Iron Mask
Speaker 2: or some other version of the Musketeers, like I do
Speaker 2: remember him being in sometimes Soword situation and he tried
Speaker 2: to take his own life but the rope fell and
Speaker 2: his butt was naked.
Speaker 3: Like I don't know, I think he's lived kind.
Speaker 2: Of seen our day part du bus and I know
Speaker 2: we have to start the episode, but it was pride.
Speaker 2: It is about to be fourth of July, Like, do
Speaker 2: we want to say anything?
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Please vote Blue. I know that Biden seems like he's
Speaker 1: gonna die. Please don't let Trump be in charge. Please please.
Speaker 1: I'm begging you for the love of our country.
Speaker 3: That's all.
Speaker 1: But everyone that listens to this podcast is pretty much,
Speaker 1: I think.
Speaker 3: On the same page with us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 3: Do you have any fourth happy for the July? I hope.
Speaker 3: I mean this is coming out on the ninth.
Speaker 1: So everybody, I hope you had a great Fourth of July.
Speaker 3: I hope you're staying cool pool parties. I'm going to
Speaker 3: the beach, bitch.
Speaker 1: Yeah, reapply that sun block I got my accidentally, Rosie
Speaker 1: burnt the side of her butt and we have to
Speaker 1: It's okay now now it's a weird tan line, but
Speaker 1: you know, we gotta reapply.
Speaker 2: Oh and we did record this episode when I forgot
Speaker 2: all of my equipment while traveling, so the sound is
Speaker 2: not as pristine as usual.
Speaker 3: That is what's going on.
Speaker 2: But also, please hit me up if you also watch
Speaker 2: The Jungle King and that was a part of your childhood,
Speaker 2: because I would love some sort of connection in.
Speaker 3: This wild world totally. All right, let's get stuted. All right.
Speaker 1: Today, we are going to season ten, which I think
Speaker 1: is one of the best seasons we've got Zebra's We've
Speaker 1: got a lot of crazy shit in season ten. We're
Speaker 1: doing this episode retro, episode number six from the season,
Speaker 1: and it pops off with alarms going off. We're at
Speaker 1: a fire department. There's a structural fire in a brownstone.
Speaker 1: Someone Rich's house is burning down. Let's go. Engine ninety
Speaker 1: nine is on their way. But then a cab pulls
Speaker 1: in front of the fire truck and it just like
Speaker 1: won't move. The firefighters are about to throw down, but
Speaker 1: then the cab driver gets out holding a little baby
Speaker 1: and goes.
Speaker 3: She's sick.
Speaker 1: This lady left her in my cab and the kid
Speaker 1: is burning up with a fever. So we're gonna follow
Speaker 1: that storyline. We are not caring about the fire anymore.
Speaker 1: At the hospital, Benson and Stabler are in a gurney
Speaker 1: accompanying walk and talk with a doctor. She's got the
Speaker 1: little baby and a little baby like shelfed gurney or whatever,
Speaker 1: and she said the baby has oral candid diassis and
Speaker 1: a temperature of one hundred and five and Stabler goes,
Speaker 1: you lost me a Canda diassis and then the doctor's like,
Speaker 1: it's a fungal infection.
Speaker 3: It's also called thrush.
Speaker 1: Maybe one of your kids had it, but you're constantly
Speaker 1: fighting crime, so you wouldn't know. So Benson and Stabler
Speaker 1: are confused because thrush is not a sexually transmitted disease,
Speaker 1: so like, why did you call us? And she's like,
Speaker 1: and we do see the little baby in the little
Speaker 1: bed thingy, and she's very cute. They're like hodling through
Speaker 1: the hospital. She's got huge cheeks, she's really baby looking. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's very sad. The doctor explains that a crime
Speaker 1: has been committed on this child. She has not been
Speaker 1: treated for HIV, which she is positive for, and that
Speaker 1: she actually has advanced aids. And the doctor confirms that
Speaker 1: the parents have done absolute dick to treat it. So
Speaker 1: get investigating because that's a crime. And now we're at
Speaker 1: the credits, and that's a ninety second cold open because
Speaker 1: this show knows how to cut to the fucking chase.
Speaker 1: I just feel like, wow, they really I looked at
Speaker 1: my actual Hulu.
Speaker 3: It was like ninety seconds to get all this information out.
Speaker 1: So now they're talking to the cab driver, who says
Speaker 1: that he dropped the mom off at port authority. She
Speaker 1: left the bag on the backseat and he noticed when
Speaker 1: he heard the baby crying. About a block later, we've
Speaker 1: got Ruben Morales, friend of the Podole de la Fuente,
Speaker 1: and they're checking out footage from the camera and the cab.
Speaker 1: But the guy right before the baby discovery is a
Speaker 1: sixty five year old man. It's not this woman he
Speaker 1: talked about, So what's up? Maybe the cab he's lying.
Speaker 1: Stabler's gonna go check it out. He confesses that he
Speaker 1: turned off the camera before the lady get in the car.
Speaker 1: He's like, look, I was trying to pocket the fair.
Speaker 1: Gas is pricey. I need to make ends meet. I
Speaker 1: get it, it's very expensive to get your hack license
Speaker 1: in h I was licking.
Speaker 3: Trying to figure out what's happening to me.
Speaker 2: But my mom is cooking and there's onions, and that
Speaker 2: is why I'm struggling. I was like, I've been living right,
Speaker 2: I'm like, what is what's happening?
Speaker 1: I'm doing everything right. My can't onions are bothering me
Speaker 1: all the way up the stairs. I love that thing
Speaker 1: you posted where you were like being at home at
Speaker 1: your parents' house is like, Wow, so much trauma, but
Speaker 1: damn I'm eating so good. Well.
Speaker 2: I also posted a thing of like you revert back
Speaker 2: to being a teen, like I had to flip out yesterday.
Speaker 3: I don't know if you saw no, No, I didn't
Speaker 3: see yet.
Speaker 2: So my sister and I were leaving the house and
Speaker 2: I was just wearing my skim's pajama bottoms and my
Speaker 2: dad turns to my sister and goes, don't you think
Speaker 2: those pants are too long? And I was just like,
Speaker 2: you know, think I know my pants are Why are
Speaker 2: you talking about my pants to my sister's Like this
Speaker 2: is ridiculous. And the night before, my mom goes, are
Speaker 2: those pants comfortable? And it's like the pajama bottom that
Speaker 2: I packed as a professional traveler, you're you're wondering if
Speaker 2: I packed comfortable pants to sleep in or not. And
Speaker 2: then she goes, those don't look like a natural fiber.
Speaker 2: And so then when my dad said that they were
Speaker 2: too your parents only wear natural fibers.
Speaker 1: My mom for sure, for sure, and my I just
Speaker 1: was like I could not get my sister's like, you
Speaker 1: need to stop flipping out about these pants. And I
Speaker 1: was like, I just do they think I'm stupid? I
Speaker 1: don't understand, and she goes, he's eighty six, and I go.
Speaker 3: You're right, You're right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's like parents need to stop commenting on stupid shit
Speaker 1: because my mom does that too, but they can't like
Speaker 1: is that really how you want to wear your hair out?
Speaker 1: You're not gonna push it back or anything like. It's
Speaker 1: like rude little comments, but.
Speaker 2: Not even to me. Like turn to my sister and goes,
Speaker 2: those look long. So then I put on shorts and
Speaker 2: then I was freezing.
Speaker 3: Just to fite them.
Speaker 2: And then I had to meet them and it's like, no,
Speaker 2: I know that they're big pants. I wasn't gonna wear
Speaker 2: these pajamas out, like right, but yeah, now I'm just
Speaker 2: cry in my childhood room because of the onions the
Speaker 2: windows open. I would leave the curtain open, but I'm
Speaker 2: scared of my neighbors. Oh yeah, they're creeps.
Speaker 1: So he admits there's no footage and so the cabby
Speaker 1: is clean. He has no record, and no baby girls
Speaker 1: have been reported missing lately, so they're sort of at
Speaker 1: a dead end. They need the cave to describe the
Speaker 1: mother to a sketch artist, and he's like okay. So
Speaker 1: then Melinda Warner summons them to the morgue. Melinda says
Speaker 1: that the baby is still alive but septic, and that
Speaker 1: doctor Massey, the doctor that they were originally talking to,
Speaker 1: is pumping her with antibiotics. So they're like, Melinda, why
Speaker 1: are you talking about anyone who still has a heartbeat?
Speaker 3: Like that's not really your territory.
Speaker 1: She's like, well, doctor Massey and I happened to be
Speaker 1: on an AID surveillance team together, and she sent Melinda
Speaker 1: a swab from the baby and she ran her DNA
Speaker 1: and lives like, well, she won't be in the system.
Speaker 1: And it's like, honestly, how dare you question Melinda Warner,
Speaker 1: Like do you think that she thinks of six year
Speaker 1: old a six month old baby's going to be in
Speaker 1: the system. She ran the DNA because she wanted to
Speaker 1: try to find a mitochondrial DNA match because a lot
Speaker 1: of kids with HIV are born to moms with rock
Speaker 1: words that she has found that in her work on
Speaker 1: the AID surveillance team. So Stabler kindly refers to these
Speaker 1: women as junkies and hookers, and we do not like
Speaker 1: that language.
Speaker 3: Around here, very very stable. That's pretty wild.
Speaker 1: I know, it's like, come on, bro, we're not back
Speaker 1: in season five here and ding ding Melinda was right
Speaker 1: got them their first lead, but all they do is
Speaker 1: question her. And the mom is Joanne Suarez, a frequent
Speaker 1: guest of the Department of Corrections, and she's at a
Speaker 1: quote charming.
Speaker 3: Little place they say called Rikers.
Speaker 1: So now we're at Rikers and we're talking to Joanne
Speaker 1: and oh my gosh. She is played by one of
Speaker 1: our very first guests on this podcast, Jessica Pimental from
Speaker 1: Orange is the New Black, our heavy metal queen. We
Speaker 1: interviewed her about a different episode she was on and
Speaker 1: I don't even remember if we talked her about this
Speaker 1: one No.
Speaker 3: Three.
Speaker 2: We didn't know, but she's played a bad junkie mother
Speaker 2: in four out of yeah episodes.
Speaker 3: We definitely talked her about that.
Speaker 1: Go back and listen to our Jessica Pamental episode well,
Speaker 1: and the best fact was.
Speaker 2: That it was the only time Marishka has ever not
Speaker 2: shown up to work was her first day because she
Speaker 2: was in the Taylor Swift Bad Blood group during the
Speaker 2: VMAs and got two wasted and could not catch her flight,
Speaker 2: hungover and so love that, love that tidbit, Jessica.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so we covered.
Speaker 1: She was our guest for the episode Institutional Fail, which
Speaker 1: was our eighteenth episode, so yeah, she was in our
Speaker 1: top she was in our top twenty episodes.
Speaker 2: So Whoopy Goldberg one that I'm always talking about.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, that one is really really tough, but a
Speaker 1: very good episode of television.
Speaker 3: So Joanne is like, you got the wrong girl.
Speaker 1: I don't have a daughter, and Stabler's like, we've got
Speaker 1: the DNA, sweethearts, so why don't you take a seat,
Speaker 1: And then she's like okay. She like admits that she
Speaker 1: lied on her intake form about having a kid because
Speaker 1: she doesn't want social services to know about her so
Speaker 1: they can take her away from her, which is a
Speaker 1: perfectly you know, rational fear. She's like, I had her
Speaker 1: at home. I never got a birth certificate. And Stabler's like, well,
Speaker 1: who's the father, and he because you know, Stabler's so
Speaker 1: concerned for the dads of the world. Stabler speaks for
Speaker 1: the dads. He's the Lorax of deadbeat dads, and she
Speaker 1: doesn't know who the dad is. She says, she's a
Speaker 1: trick baby, but that doesn't mean that I don't love her,
Speaker 1: and I realized, shit, I've been calling Rosie a trick
Speaker 1: baby for years, but with a different meaning, like she's
Speaker 1: calling her a trick baby, like like one of her
Speaker 1: pregnated her.
Speaker 3: We understand that, we don't understand what you're doing.
Speaker 1: We say trick baby about Rosie because she was an
Speaker 1: easy baby, and it tricks you into having a second baby,
Speaker 1: and then your.
Speaker 3: Baby's not like that's what people say.
Speaker 1: They're like, oh, yeah, your first one can be a
Speaker 1: trick baby, where you're like, oh, babies are pretty easy.
Speaker 1: It's not that bad, like Rosie sleep trained so easily.
Speaker 1: All this shit, and then Oscar came along and was like, hey,
Speaker 1: what's up. I'm gonna be a chaos tornado in your life.
Speaker 1: So anyway, I maybe will stop calling her a trick
Speaker 1: baby now that I know that there's a double meaning.
Speaker 1: So she's like, it doesn't mean I love her any less,
Speaker 1: And we find out the baby is named d'antonia, and
Speaker 1: she's like, well, what's wrong?
Speaker 3: Is she okay?
Speaker 1: I love that she's like fully denying she has this baby,
Speaker 1: and now she's like, oh wait, is she okay? Is
Speaker 1: there a reason for coming to ask me about my daughter,
Speaker 1: and it's like, you were not concerned two minutes ago,
Speaker 1: but here we go. So they're like, no, Antonia is
Speaker 1: in the hospital with AIDS, and Joanne looks like very shook,
Speaker 1: like it's a hard thing to watch on mother hear this,
Speaker 1: And she said, I stopped using when I was pregnant.
Speaker 1: I did everything I could to keep the baby clean.
Speaker 1: But Benson's like, well, did you take andrei retrovirals that
Speaker 1: would have prevented her from contracting it?
Speaker 3: And Joann's like, I never meant to hurt her.
Speaker 1: She said, I left the baby with Ida Jallo, my
Speaker 1: downstairs neighbor, when I got locked up, and she promised
Speaker 1: to take care of her. So that is like very
Speaker 1: sad because I feel like I didn't even know that
Speaker 1: I didn't. I like assumed that if you got pregnant
Speaker 1: and you were HIV positive or had AIDS, that it
Speaker 1: would just pass to the baby because of like fluid,
Speaker 1: you know, fluids in your butt. But this episode really
Speaker 1: like lets you know that there's a lot you can
Speaker 1: do to prevent a pregnant woman can do to prevent
Speaker 1: a baby from contracting it. So SVU once again educating
Speaker 1: me things I did not know. And so now we're
Speaker 1: banging on Ida Jallo's door and she opens up the
Speaker 1: door and guess who lives there with her.
Speaker 3: Mister Marang the cab driver. Done done.
Speaker 1: They are a couple, and he's like, oh, they're just
Speaker 1: here to talk to me, like he doesn't know why
Speaker 1: the cops are there necessarily. And this actor, by the way,
Speaker 1: his name is bob's Alusanmakon and he is a Nigerian
Speaker 1: actor who is killing it. He's in the Dune movies.
Speaker 1: He's in Star Trek's Strange New Worlds. I mean, he
Speaker 1: is very booked. So now they have Ida and mister
Speaker 1: Morong in Cement Barr's room, and Ida explains that.
Speaker 3: Their green cards have expired.
Speaker 1: They were worried they were going to get deported, and
Speaker 1: Antonia just kept getting sicker and sicker and stablers like,
Speaker 1: so you just made up that story about finding her
Speaker 1: in the cab to get rid of her, and they're.
Speaker 3: Like no, no, no, no no.
Speaker 1: We loved Antonia like she was our own and everything
Speaker 1: was fine until she stopped eating. And Ida said, I
Speaker 1: thought she just missed her mom, but then I saw
Speaker 1: the white spots in her mouth and I knew it
Speaker 1: was AIDS because of her experience in her own country.
Speaker 3: I think they are supposed to be.
Speaker 1: From Gambia in the episode, and her sister had AIDS
Speaker 1: as well, she said, so she knows what it looks like.
Speaker 1: So why didn't you bring her to a hospital, And
Speaker 1: mister Morong says, because AIDS medicines are poison, and then
Speaker 1: Stabler and Benson give each other the like hoo boy,
Speaker 1: look you know where they're like, uh oh, looney's loney alert.
Speaker 1: Mister Marong says he heard that from their president, but
Speaker 1: that also the president of Gambia has found a cure
Speaker 1: and it is a green paste made of herbs that
Speaker 1: he rubs on patient's chests. And Benson's like, the President
Speaker 1: of Gambia does this himself and they're like yep, every Thursday.
Speaker 1: And then he gives them bitter yellow brew and two
Speaker 1: bananas and they're cured. And they're like, well, why didn't
Speaker 1: you try this method on Antonio. They're like, come on,
Speaker 1: obviously the President's magic potion is a secret.
Speaker 3: So we went on the internet.
Speaker 1: We found a doctor who shared our beliefs and we
Speaker 1: gave Antonia vitamins, but she just got worse and Stabler's like,
Speaker 1: I want the name of this quack doctor.
Speaker 3: So now bing bang bong, we.
Speaker 1: Are at the office of doctor Gideon Hutton, and holy shit.
Speaker 1: He is played by a legend, Martin mull. This guy
Speaker 1: has been acting since the seventies. He was Colonel Mustard
Speaker 1: in the original Clue movie. He's in a movie I
Speaker 1: was like obsessed within my teens called Ski Patrol. He
Speaker 1: was in forty six episodes of Roseanne, seventy three episodes
Speaker 1: of Sabrina the Teenage Witch. I mean, his his IMDb
Speaker 1: goes on and on. He's legendary. Is he does he
Speaker 1: stick out for you for something Roseanne?
Speaker 3: Yeah? And weep weep, yes as well.
Speaker 2: He's just been a few in the recount episodes, but
Speaker 2: very funny and in Roseanne.
Speaker 1: He you know, he's great. He's like the restaurant boss.
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, he's he's a great actor.
Speaker 2: He gives me the vibe of mister Feenie. Though I
Speaker 2: or like, I was like, oh, he's been a principle,
Speaker 2: but I was.
Speaker 1: Just about to say that he's like he's like.
Speaker 3: Funny, like bumbling principal kind of vibes.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, my niece and all the kids. They
Speaker 2: know Sabrina Carpenter from Girl Meets World. Oh yeah, because
Speaker 2: I'm new to Sabrina Carpenter, right, I'm just like, oh
Speaker 2: my god, I love the new Please Please Please, Like,
Speaker 2: oh you haven't the videos.
Speaker 1: It's it's for me. It's better than espresso for me.
Speaker 1: For me personally, I'm obsessed with Please Please Please. I
Speaker 1: listened to it now all the time.
Speaker 2: But so I was going off on it and they
Speaker 2: were like, we've liked her for a long time and
Speaker 2: she's really changing, and I'm like changing to what what?
Speaker 3: She's a very loop star. She used to be different
Speaker 3: and I had no idea.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I knew she was like a Disney
Speaker 1: girly or something, but I didn't know what from.
Speaker 3: Obviously she doesn't asked you.
Speaker 2: I know she was acting, and she was actually gonna
Speaker 2: be in Mean Girls, the musical before the pandemic. Oh,
Speaker 2: but so she is a theater girly. I just didn't
Speaker 2: know about Girl Meets worlds.
Speaker 3: Yeah, me neither.
Speaker 1: Martin Moull, huge staple character actor of My Youth, for sure,
Speaker 1: And he's telling the cops that he instructed the wrongs
Speaker 1: to give Antonia yogurt and Benson goes yogurt for aids,
Speaker 1: Are you out of your mind? And then doctor Cucko says,
Speaker 1: not every patient with HIV needs medication. He says Antonia
Speaker 1: had a minor case of thrush and he chose alternative treatment,
Speaker 1: which has worked very well. It's like, no, it hasn't.
Speaker 1: She's in the hospital. Stabler's like, your alternative treatment almost
Speaker 1: killed her. And he's like, well, then they should have
Speaker 1: come back here for more therapy, and Benson goes like,
Speaker 1: what pudding?
Speaker 3: Which love it?
Speaker 1: I'm loving the SaaS he says anti fungal medication like
Speaker 1: any other medical professional would prescribe, and Stabler argues that
Speaker 1: any medical professional would have given an HIV positive child
Speaker 1: medication from visit one and he calls him a quack
Speaker 1: and doctor Hutton's like, well, that's a wrap on our conversation,
Speaker 1: and Stabler goes how many people has he cured with
Speaker 1: vitamins and yogurt? And He's like, I gotta go. I
Speaker 1: have patients to go kill. So in the next scene,
Speaker 1: Benson and Stabler are in a barisk walk and talk
Speaker 1: with our all time favorite Ada Kim Gray Lick Bear
Speaker 1: Bear Bear JK she's the worst, but you know she's
Speaker 1: fighting for the right thing in this episode. And she's like,
Speaker 1: get the state Medical Board on his ass, like this
Speaker 1: isn't really my business, Like he's a walking mile practice lawsuit,
Speaker 1: but it's not really SVU territory.
Speaker 3: And she goes, yogurt is not a murder weapon.
Speaker 1: Holistic medicine is legal and people can choose their own treatments,
Speaker 1: and Stabler's like, yeah, when they're based in science, not voodoo.
Speaker 1: Munch with the info and the color commentary, and he goes,
Speaker 1: I checked out doctor Demento's website. It's called the Truth
Speaker 1: about HIV, and this guy's claiming that there is no
Speaker 1: proof that HIV causes AIDS and.
Speaker 3: That Big Farmer's drugs are going to kill you.
Speaker 1: So he thinks that AIDS is a global conspiracy run
Speaker 1: by big pharma for money, and Finn pipes in and goes, yeah,
Speaker 1: and my parents thought that HIV was created in a
Speaker 1: lab and that the CIA spread it into prisons to
Speaker 1: kill blacks and gays.
Speaker 3: I don't think that.
Speaker 1: That's true, but I don't think it's also crazy to
Speaker 1: believe that the government has done shady shit like this,
Speaker 1: right because they have. The doctor is an AIDS denier,
Speaker 1: which I truly did not know. This was a thing
Speaker 1: part of a small community that believe HIV doesn't cause
Speaker 1: AIDS and that AIDS doesn't actually exist. And they fill
Speaker 1: us in that Antonia is doing okay, but the doctor's
Speaker 1: so rude.
Speaker 3: It's like, okay, so all these people fucking died.
Speaker 2: It's kind of like the Sandy Hook deniers, Holocaust deniers,
Speaker 2: all of it.
Speaker 3: Totally.
Speaker 2: How fucking dare you take people's true tragedies and just
Speaker 2: saying no, yeah, I don't get it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And this episode came out in two thousand and eight.
Speaker 1: It's like, this isn't I don't know. It's very it's
Speaker 1: very shocking. So we find out that Antonia is doing okay,
Speaker 1: but that her doctor doesn't think she'll make it to
Speaker 1: high school, which is that's very sad, but hopefully that's
Speaker 1: not true because so much, so much, like I feel
Speaker 1: like there's been so much progress. Honestly, the fictional Antonia
Speaker 1: I think is still with us. Graylex says that Antonia
Speaker 1: can't be Hutton's first fuck up, and it's time to
Speaker 1: put Doctor Do Nothing out of business. So now Graylock's
Speaker 1: like Okay, now I'm into this, but he's not going
Speaker 1: to be helpful, so how are we going to find
Speaker 1: his patients? And Gray look's like, remember I was a
Speaker 1: crusader in DC. I've gotten media friends and we'll use
Speaker 1: them to smoke him out. So we cut to graylic
Speaker 1: in full press conference mode. She does look good for
Speaker 1: the calen camera. She's a beautiful girl, and she's flashing
Speaker 1: a photo of Antonia and she's acting like they're trying
Speaker 1: to find Antonia's father, which is there's virtually no way
Speaker 1: of finding that out, like no one will, no one
Speaker 1: knows who this father is. But then she reveals that
Speaker 1: the reason Antonia's hospitalized is because of this doctor's negligence,
Speaker 1: and she gives his name and encourages the public to
Speaker 1: come forward. So then we cut to the end of
Speaker 1: this press or being watched on a TV and we
Speaker 1: pull out to see doctor Hutton in Cragan's office with
Speaker 1: his lawyer, defense attorney Donna Emmett played by the one
Speaker 1: and only Viola Davis, and Hutton is calling this libelous
Speaker 1: trash and Emmett says that they are propagating lies about
Speaker 1: her client. It's like wild because Viola Davis. It's like
Speaker 1: you are Donna Emmett. It's like you're a high power
Speaker 1: defense attorney, and it's like, I think there's some cases
Speaker 1: that defense attorneys still won't touch, and like a man
Speaker 1: hurting children who are JAV positive doesn't feel like a
Speaker 1: case you're going to be like, I need this one
Speaker 1: for the money, like you don't.
Speaker 3: And Craigan she might believe in it. She might take
Speaker 3: her kids there. She might, she might.
Speaker 1: And Cragan is like, it's gray Lick's issue. Why don't
Speaker 1: you go bark up her tree? And she's like no.
Speaker 1: Benson and Stabler interrogated my client without me present, but
Speaker 1: Stabler said that was just a friendly and when we
Speaker 1: interrogate him, he'll know it because he'll feel my hot
Speaker 1: breath on the back of his neck. And Hutton's like,
Speaker 1: you're scaring my patients, and Stablers like they should be scared,
Speaker 1: and then they storm out and Emmett threatens a huge
Speaker 1: lawsuit if they don't apologize publicly within twenty four hours.
Speaker 1: So then Munch comes in with the results of the
Speaker 1: tip line, and it's mostly people saying that doctor Hutton
Speaker 1: rules that he's the smartest doctor of all time. But
Speaker 1: there was one anonymous call saying he's treating a girl
Speaker 1: named Lisa Ross and he's not doing anything.
Speaker 3: So they show up at the Ross house.
Speaker 1: A teen boy answers and tells them that Dundun his
Speaker 1: sister is dead. So top of aac two, they're gathered
Speaker 1: around a TV with Lisa's mom watching home videos of
Speaker 1: her and paused and she looks happy on a swing
Speaker 1: and she goes, this is two months ago, just before
Speaker 1: she died, and she looks pretty healthy and happy, and
Speaker 1: the mom says, she had an allergic reaction to penicillin
Speaker 1: cough and she had a cough and a fever, and
Speaker 1: I took her to doctor Hutton. He prescribed a moxicillin.
Speaker 1: After one dough, she was having trouble breathing, so she
Speaker 1: rushed her back to the doctor's office and then he
Speaker 1: gave her a shot of adrenaline. He shocked your heart,
Speaker 1: but it was too late, so they're like, okay, So
Speaker 1: no one knew she was allergic to penicillin. And the
Speaker 1: mom's like, no, she was very healthy until this cold.
Speaker 1: And then Benson tells her about this anonymous call and
Speaker 1: she's like, it's not Hutton's fault. It was an accident
Speaker 1: that she died, so they want to see Lisa's medical records,
Speaker 1: and the mom's like, look, my husband died when I
Speaker 1: was just pregnant with Lisa, and now I can barely
Speaker 1: get out of bed in the morning because I don't
Speaker 1: have my daughter anymore.
Speaker 3: Just leave me and Tommy alone. And her son is
Speaker 3: named Tommy, and it is wild.
Speaker 1: One of our listeners has compiled a list of how
Speaker 1: many side characters are named Tommy in this show, and
Speaker 1: it is insane, like they just can never think of
Speaker 1: a little brother's name ever besides Tommy. It's like a Bengi,
Speaker 1: a little Nikki. I mean there has been a little
Speaker 1: Nikki actually. But the plot thickens, Benson and Stabler tell
Speaker 1: Graylak that there was never even an autopsy done by
Speaker 1: a medical examiner on Lisa because Hutton signed the death certificate,
Speaker 1: and Gray look's like, the a medical examiner is supposed
Speaker 1: to investigate every sudden death of a child in the city.
Speaker 1: But they're like, no, unless it happens in hospital or
Speaker 1: a doctor's office where life saving efforts are documented, then
Speaker 1: they can just sign it and there's no need for
Speaker 1: the autopsy. So no autopsy means we have no idea
Speaker 1: that she was HIV positive, and we do not have
Speaker 1: enough to convince a judge to subpoena her records.
Speaker 3: We need the anonymous tipster.
Speaker 1: So now we're back to Reuben Morales, and he's annoyed
Speaker 1: because he's like, why can't we just track the tip
Speaker 1: line and they're like, because then no one will leave tips.
Speaker 1: Dog Like, we can't like really do that. So meanwhile,
Speaker 1: Stabler's doing some snooping into the mom. So this woman's
Speaker 1: a private school teacher in Connecticut and then suddenly, out
Speaker 1: of the blue, three years ago, she's a stay at
Speaker 1: home mom with a condo in Manhattan and a ton
Speaker 1: of money, and they show she has over two million
Speaker 1: dollars in her bank account, and boy, it looks lovely
Speaker 1: to see a bank account with like seven figures in it.
Speaker 3: It's pretty cool.
Speaker 1: Then Morales pulls up the call from the tipst and
Speaker 1: it sounds like a middle aged man. He's like, he
Speaker 1: knows Lisa Ross, her doctor and her address, but he
Speaker 1: doesn't know that she died two months ago, so like, who.
Speaker 3: Is this guy?
Speaker 1: There's a sound of a school bell ringing right before
Speaker 1: the guy hangs up and they're like, oh, Susan Ross
Speaker 1: was a teacher. Maybe it's a coworker, Maybe it's Jack Lufton.
Speaker 1: He co signed her car loan and teaches chemistry. So boom,
Speaker 1: boom boom, we are getting right to this tipster pretty
Speaker 1: quickly without actually having to track his call. So now
Speaker 1: they're at Stamford Preparatory School in Stanford, Connecticut, which I
Speaker 1: did live in Stanford, Connecticut from ages four to eight,
Speaker 1: and that is not a real school, and they're talking
Speaker 1: to Jack Lufton. He's played by an actor named Richard
Speaker 1: Joseph Paul and that's just three men's names. And he's
Speaker 1: been in two other svus. He's also been in Criminal
Speaker 1: Senan Original, but I don't He's like familiar but not.
Speaker 1: He says he didn't know that Lisa died, but he's
Speaker 1: not surprised. He said after Lisa was born, he and
Speaker 1: Susan dated for about one and a half years. He
Speaker 1: was monogamous the entire time. Then on an insurance physical
Speaker 1: he came up HIV positive. He went nuts on Susan
Speaker 1: and she said, quote, what's the big deal? HIV doesn't
Speaker 1: make you sick, So apparently what happened was Susan and
Speaker 1: her husband Ed and Tommy went on Safari and Kenya
Speaker 1: in two thousand and three. Their jeep flipped over and
Speaker 1: Ed was killed. Tommy was fine, and the blood transfusion
Speaker 1: that saves Susan's life infected her, and then she infected
Speaker 1: her boyfriend, John Jacob Jingle Hunter Fel what's his name again.
Speaker 3: Jack Jack Lufton? Okay.
Speaker 1: He says, I'm on anti retrovirals, which I'm gonna call
Speaker 1: ARVs from now on because it's such a mouthful, and
Speaker 1: that's what they called him in the episode A Lot.
Speaker 1: He's like, I'm on ARVs. My viral load is near zero,
Speaker 1: and I feel great. And he told the school right away,
Speaker 1: and he thinks that's why she got fired, and the
Speaker 1: school paid her seven figures so she wouldn't sue. And
Speaker 1: they're like, why did she get fired or not you
Speaker 1: and he's like, because she thinks HIV is harmless If
Speaker 1: she cuts herself and infects the student, She's like, you know,
Speaker 1: she gets cut and is like, no worries. Kids, Everybody
Speaker 1: come over here and take a drop of my blood,
Speaker 1: you know, And then he tells them that she's reckless.
Speaker 3: With her own kids as well.
Speaker 1: She breastfed Lisa for a year because doctor Hutton told
Speaker 1: her it was okay.
Speaker 3: Yikes.
Speaker 1: So now we're at the precinct and we're getting some
Speaker 1: of this medical info I alluded to earlier from Melinda.
Speaker 1: So she says two thirds of the world's kids get
Speaker 1: with HIV get infected during pregnancy or at birth from
Speaker 1: their mother, and the rest get it from breastfeeding. She
Speaker 1: says in the US, HIV positive women have a ninety
Speaker 1: eight percent chance of having a healthy baby if they
Speaker 1: take ARVs during pregnancy and they put the kid on
Speaker 1: meds right after birth, which Susan didn't do because she
Speaker 1: didn't believe that HIV is harmful. So that's criminally negligitent homicide.
Speaker 3: They say.
Speaker 1: If Hutton knew that Susan had HIV, he had a
Speaker 1: legal duty to have the kids tested. Doctors have to
Speaker 1: offer patients treatments that are proven effective. In Lisa's case,
Speaker 1: an HIV test and ARVs if she tested positive, and
Speaker 1: Stabler's like, well, how do we prove she died of
Speaker 1: AIDS and not a reaction to penicillin? And Graylex says
Speaker 1: led subpoena the files, but Melinda said, there's really only
Speaker 1: one conclusive way to find out what killed Lisa, and
Speaker 1: it does involve a shovel cut to the gravestone. Cut
Speaker 1: to the gravestone of Lisa Ross. I love when they
Speaker 1: zum a body body. I know, I know the family
Speaker 1: must feel terrible, but I'm always like, get in there,
Speaker 1: find the So we cut to this graystone of Lisa
Speaker 1: as a truck starts digging into her plot. Melinda's narrating
Speaker 1: with her voiceover as the casket has e zoomed, and
Speaker 1: it's like it's like Melinda doing her notes basically. And
Speaker 1: the next thing we see Susan find out about the
Speaker 1: exhamation and she is not pleased.
Speaker 3: She's like, you dug up my daughter? How could you
Speaker 3: do that?
Speaker 1: And Benson's like, how could you kill her? Like she's
Speaker 1: very deadpan. Her lawyer is like, she had the right
Speaker 1: to breastfeed her child, and it's like, sir, that is
Speaker 1: really not what we're talking about here, Like it's not
Speaker 1: about breastfeeding. She did not have the right to infect
Speaker 1: her child with HIV and withhold medication from her. And
Speaker 1: Susan is still on the I didn't hurt my baby
Speaker 1: train I didn't make her sick, Like she's just like
Speaker 1: truly not getting it.
Speaker 3: Melinda is now doing the autopsy.
Speaker 1: We're cutting back and forth between like them talking to
Speaker 1: people and Melinda doing this autopsy. So now we flash
Speaker 1: back to an interrogation with doctor Hutton and Viola Davis,
Speaker 1: and she's arguing that he did everything he could to
Speaker 1: save Lisa, but Gray looks like, yeah, everything except treat
Speaker 1: the ticking time bomb that's inside of her. And he said, which,
Speaker 1: by the way, I would not refer to HIV or
Speaker 1: AIDS as a ticking time bomb today. I think she's
Speaker 1: being dramatic for the show. And he says he doesn't
Speaker 1: know what she's talking about, and neither does she. Like
Speaker 1: this is one of these doctors who's like, I'm a
Speaker 1: doctor and I know everything and you know nothing. And
Speaker 1: the only thing we don't know is if Lisa was
Speaker 1: your first mistake, is what Graylax says. And she's like,
Speaker 1: but you can bet your ass she's your last. So
Speaker 1: you know, great, we're getting some good Gray li like
Speaker 1: in this back to Melinda's autopsy, the liver and the
Speaker 1: kidneys appear enlarged. There's an ulcerated lesion on the upper
Speaker 1: lip that suggests a viral inclusion. Look at me, I'm
Speaker 1: a medical examiner using all these words. And then we
Speaker 1: cut to Susan and she's like, doctor Hutton said it
Speaker 1: was a cankerstor and it would go away. And she
Speaker 1: admits she took Lisa to doctor Hutton a few times
Speaker 1: before when she was sick, but he didn't prescribe the
Speaker 1: antibiotics until the last visit. And according to doctor Hutton,
Speaker 1: she was sick for three weeks and he goes, she
Speaker 1: had a hell of a cold. Like this guy's not
Speaker 1: even at all remorseful now that like she's passed away,
Speaker 1: like that he's done anything wrong. He's just like, wow, yeah,
Speaker 1: that was a crazy cold. Well, and that's the whole thing.
Speaker 2: And they get to it in this episode, but like
Speaker 2: for them to admit that means everything crashes down.
Speaker 3: Yes, Like they can't.
Speaker 2: They can't because then their whole worldview is wrong.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: It's like those men on the streets where someone is like,
Speaker 1: didn't God kill all the first male born babies?
Speaker 3: And then the people just have to run away yeah yah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, where they're like, you know what against is also
Speaker 1: against the Bible, Like talking to people when you're on
Speaker 1: your period or wearing mixed fibers and they're like, wait, what,
Speaker 1: Like you know, you just blow people's minds. This guy
Speaker 1: never thought that it was serious until the mom brought
Speaker 1: him back for the final time, and that's when he
Speaker 1: gave her the amoxacillin, which, by the way, I don't
Speaker 1: think any doctor would say that they would prescribe an
Speaker 1: emoxicillin for a cold, so it's obviously something worse than
Speaker 1: a cold.
Speaker 3: He didn't take blood or do a chest X ray.
Speaker 1: Why subject her to needles an unnecessary dose of radiation.
Speaker 1: He listened to her lungs and they were clear.
Speaker 3: Uh oh.
Speaker 1: Busted back at Melinda's audiobook recording, where she is noting
Speaker 1: that the lungs had significant conject and she had white, patchy,
Speaker 1: fluffy masses in the lower lobe, which means she died
Speaker 1: of numosis sick pneumonia, which Melinda says she has only
Speaker 1: ever seen in AIDS patients, and so she's ruling this
Speaker 1: a homicide. Benson walks right into the interrogation room and
Speaker 1: arrests Susan for murdering her daughter. Stabler's bringing doctor Hutton
Speaker 1: out in cuffs as well. Who's screaming about how he
Speaker 1: delivered that child, he didn't murder her. And then Tommy,
Speaker 1: the teen is standing right there and he's like, Lisa
Speaker 1: was murdered. And then Hutton is like, don't believe them, Tommy,
Speaker 1: and then Tommy lunges for his mom, like you can't
Speaker 1: take her to jail, and she goes, stay strong, Tommy,
Speaker 1: don't go against your conscience, you know the truth, and
Speaker 1: the scene ends with Tommy like being held back by
Speaker 1: Stabler and he's heavy breathing, and Stabler's likesh.
Speaker 3: Like, you know, like babying him.
Speaker 2: And his haircut, I would say, is like Jonathan Taylor Thomas.
Speaker 3: Yeah it is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is absolute, like early two thousand's butt cut
Speaker 1: like wave like kid, absolute teen boy hair You're correct
Speaker 1: to back three. Melinda is walking us slash the jury
Speaker 1: through a PowerPoint style animation of how HIV attacks life
Speaker 1: saving T cells. This is like shit you learn in
Speaker 1: third grade. The T cells are what fight your disease.
Speaker 1: But eventually the disease destroys the T cells faster than
Speaker 1: the body can make them, and it destroys the immune system,
Speaker 1: which then causes aids. Doctor Warner testifies that it's been
Speaker 1: AIDS has been studied, photographed, cultured, grown outside the body,
Speaker 1: it's been fully documented, and it's killed more than twenty
Speaker 1: five million people since nineteen eighty one, including Lisa Ross. So,
Speaker 1: doctor Hutton and Susan Ross are both sitting at the
Speaker 1: defendant's table, and now it's Viola Davis's turn, and she
Speaker 1: is big mad, okay, she is ready to lay into Warner.
Speaker 1: She's like, so every disease that allegedly causes AIDS can
Speaker 1: also occur in people without HIV, right, She's like yes,
Speaker 1: And then she's like, so was the HIV? Did you
Speaker 1: find HIV in Lisa Ros's blood? And Warner says no,
Speaker 1: but then she gets interrupted, and then Viola's like, well,
Speaker 1: isn't it possible that her PCP pneumonia was caused by
Speaker 1: something other than HIV?
Speaker 3: And Melinda's like, it's not that simple, and Viola.
Speaker 1: Davis goes the hearing problem doctor and graylik is like,
Speaker 1: is this bitch gonna let Melinda talk or what? And
Speaker 1: the judge tells Emmett to chill out. And this is
Speaker 1: Judge Walter Bradley. We have seen him many other times.
Speaker 1: And Melinda says, I didn't find HIV in the bloodstream
Speaker 1: because she'd been embalmed. Anything causing a compromise of the
Speaker 1: immune system can cause PCP, pneumonia, cancer, malnutrition, radiation, poisoning,
Speaker 1: toxic chemicals. Too bad, there's no evidence of any of
Speaker 1: those other conditions. So I concluded that she died of
Speaker 1: AIDS caused by untreated HIV because Hutton refused to treat it.
Speaker 1: And she points her finger at this old quack doctor.
Speaker 1: So now doctor Bananas is up on the stand saying
Speaker 1: all his nonsense because he knows better than renowned doctors
Speaker 1: from all over the world, and he's like, HIV's a retrovirus,
Speaker 1: and no retrovirus has been proven to kill cells. But
Speaker 1: Emmett says, yeah, but we just saw the cartoon doing that.
Speaker 1: And then he says cartoons have always been used to
Speaker 1: spread propaganda that AIDS as the country's biggest health risk
Speaker 1: and that we're all at risk. He says they're using
Speaker 1: fear to motivate so that government researchers can get billions
Speaker 1: in funding to cure a disease that kills mostly drug
Speaker 1: addictsing gays. It's like Jesus. This episode is from two
Speaker 1: thousand and eight, it's like not that long ago. And
Speaker 1: also I can't believe any lawyer would ever put this
Speaker 1: guy on the stand, knowing the things he's gonna say
Speaker 1: that he's saying, like, why do we care so much
Speaker 1: about a disease it only kills gays and drug addicts?
Speaker 1: Like why are we letting this like truly bigoted man
Speaker 1: be on the stand?
Speaker 3: VELAs should have intervened.
Speaker 2: But also he's an arrogant man, so of course he
Speaker 2: has to get on the sand.
Speaker 1: But I feel a real lawyer would never put a
Speaker 1: momba for television. We must see him talk. He explains
Speaker 1: that diseases attributed incorrectly to AIDS are caused by blood
Speaker 1: toxicity from repeated recreational drug use, malnutrition, and anti HIV medications.
Speaker 1: So all right, whatever, sir gray Lix turn he's like, hey, bro,
Speaker 1: have you ever so much as written a high school
Speaker 1: science paper on HIV or AIDS? And he's like, no,
Speaker 1: I have not, And he hasn't published a paper or
Speaker 1: anything close. And he's like, well, medical journals are all
Speaker 1: about the status quo and they're patently false. And it's like, actually,
Speaker 1: medical journals post tons of new shit all the time,
Speaker 1: and and sometimes it's wrong, like the paper that was
Speaker 1: published about anti vaxxing has been fully recalled, but was
Speaker 1: originally published in a medical journal anyway, So do you
Speaker 1: have any hard evidence for any of these accusations that
Speaker 1: you're making And he's like, Oh, I've got plenty of
Speaker 1: evidence from some of the greatest science minds in the world.
Speaker 3: And she's like, oh, like that biologist in.
Speaker 1: Sam Brand who's been completely shunned by the scientific community,
Speaker 1: or the Minister of health in South Africa who told
Speaker 1: people to use garlic and beat root to treat HIV.
Speaker 1: And he's like, you don't get it. People are being
Speaker 1: wrongly treated and diagnosed. It's a back and forth and
Speaker 1: she's like like Lisa Ross and he's like, she died
Speaker 1: from antibiotics and it's like she died of AIDS. He
Speaker 1: tries to say that Melinda's a pet medical examiner who's biased,
Speaker 1: and he goes go ahead and ask her how many
Speaker 1: of her friends and family members have died of AIDS,
Speaker 1: either here or in Africa, and Graylik's like, are you
Speaker 1: saying that because she's black?
Speaker 3: How dare you?
Speaker 1: And he's like, she has an agenda, just like all
Speaker 1: the doctors who perform unnecessary procedures just to pad their wallets.
Speaker 3: Big pharma.
Speaker 1: I mean, he's like he's making munch like an absolute
Speaker 1: conservative up here, And even Viola Davis is like, fuck,
Speaker 1: I hope the chuck clears, Like how am I?
Speaker 3: How? Like?
Speaker 1: Does I don't understand how this man has a black
Speaker 1: lawyer when he's saying things out there like Melinda has
Speaker 1: more family members who have.
Speaker 3: Died of AIDS because she's black.
Speaker 1: And the judge tells him to shut the fuck up,
Speaker 1: and he finally stops, and so Melinda chases him down
Speaker 1: the court steps, telling him the rate of HIV contraction
Speaker 1: is three times higher in New York City?
Speaker 3: Is that a lie to? He tells Melinda, wake up.
Speaker 1: We have vaccines and we know the body produces antibody,
Speaker 1: so why is there no AIDS vaccine and why is
Speaker 1: not one patient being cured? And Melinda's like, fuck you,
Speaker 1: we all want to cure for AIDS. You're killing people
Speaker 1: with your beliefs. And he's like, my beliefs are scientific facts,
Speaker 1: and she's like, junk science. You're a murderer and a
Speaker 1: false prophet. He goes, that's what they said to Jesus
Speaker 1: and he walks off. And I remember this episode making
Speaker 1: me so furious when I first watched it in two
Speaker 1: thousand and eight, But it's like, I'm not surprised by
Speaker 1: this episode at all now, Like this guy is everywhere.
Speaker 1: This guy is Trump cult people, this guy's anti Voxer's,
Speaker 1: Holocaust deniers, this guy is we see this kind of man,
Speaker 1: And unfortunately, I do believe since Trub's election, these people
Speaker 1: are now speaking up a lot more loudly than just
Speaker 1: this one random wacko doctor in Manhattan, you know. And
Speaker 1: Melinda says to grey Lick, well, I hope the jury
Speaker 1: doesn't think he's the son of God.
Speaker 3: And Gray look's like, I don't know.
Speaker 1: Jury's love conspiracy theories, like they could buy this garbage,
Speaker 1: and Melinda's like, I don't really want to gab with
Speaker 1: you right now, Gray Lick. If you lose this case
Speaker 1: and it gives him more credibility, people are going to die. Bye, girl,
Speaker 1: Go do your job. So on the stand, Susan is
Speaker 1: now testifying. She says she found out she had HIV
Speaker 1: when she was pregnant with Lisa, then they put her
Speaker 1: on anti retrovirals.
Speaker 3: She said that she never.
Speaker 1: Was sicker in her whole life, and it's like, you
Speaker 1: also could just have morning sickness from being pregnant. Then
Speaker 1: a friend recommended doctor Hutton, who took her off the
Speaker 1: meds and he saved her life, you know. And now
Speaker 1: it's Graylock's turn, and she's like, Okay, this woman is
Speaker 1: the mayor of De Lulu Town and she's like, I'm
Speaker 1: proof that Hutton is right, and Lisa's death is not
Speaker 1: proof that he's wrong because that was an accident. And
Speaker 1: she's like, did Hutton tell you not to test Lisa
Speaker 1: for HIV? And she says no, but it feels like
Speaker 1: a lie. And then did he suggest that she take ARVs?
Speaker 1: And she says they almost killed me. I wasn't gonna
Speaker 1: let them give them to my little girl. And then
Speaker 1: gray Lick, she pulls out the big guns. She points
Speaker 1: to a group of people in the gallery and goes,
Speaker 1: do you know any of these people? And she's like no,
Speaker 1: and gray look's like, well, maybe you should. This is
Speaker 1: Donald Ramirez. He was on death's door twenty years ago
Speaker 1: until ARV saved his life.
Speaker 3: ROBERTA.
Speaker 1: Nolan, she tested positive fifteen years ago and is still
Speaker 1: alive today because of ARV's Susan's lawyer. This guy is like,
Speaker 1: I object she's testifying, and the judge tries to stop her,
Speaker 1: but Graylck is on a mission.
Speaker 3: She's like, look at them, Susan.
Speaker 1: These people are alive and Lisa is dead because you
Speaker 1: withheld treatment.
Speaker 3: Suddenly, as we have seen happen in this.
Speaker 1: Courtroom before I feel, Susan falls to the floor and
Speaker 1: begins seizing. Hutton is like, let me get like, let
Speaker 1: me at her. I'm her doctor, and then Melinda is
Speaker 1: there helping this woman and is like, call an ambulance.
Speaker 1: So in the next scene, Susan wakes up at the
Speaker 1: hospital confused. Benson's, lie, you're at Mercy Hospital. She's like,
Speaker 1: what's wrong with me? And It's like, girl, you have toxoplasmosis.
Speaker 1: It's a brain disease that people with AIDS get, and like,
Speaker 1: of course something's wrong with you.
Speaker 3: Why are you so crazy?
Speaker 1: She said she had terrible migraines after Lisa died, and
Speaker 1: that Hutton said it was grieving headaches and that it
Speaker 1: would pass. Benson's like, girl, you knew you had HIV.
Speaker 1: It was only a matter of time before you got sick.
Speaker 1: She says, I needed to believe him. I needed to
Speaker 1: believe that I was going to be okay. And I
Speaker 1: do believe that you can that this delusion can be
Speaker 1: part of it. Like I think I've seen people be
Speaker 1: misdiagnosed with stuff because they have something.
Speaker 3: They just have to believe that they're going to be okay.
Speaker 3: So Hutton was wrong and about Lisa and about you.
Speaker 3: But he's a doctor. Why would he lie to me?
Speaker 1: Susan's crying, She's like finally kind of starting to get it,
Speaker 1: and Benson says, because if he admits the truth, he
Speaker 1: has to take responsibibility for what happened to Lisa and
Speaker 1: what's happening to you. And it's like, has no one
Speaker 1: in this woman's life been a Benson before now, like
Speaker 1: Benson is somehow getting through to her, but no one
Speaker 1: in her let her boyfriend of a year and a half, No,
Speaker 1: she gave HIV too, No one could tell her anything
Speaker 1: about this Hutton guy. But now Benson's she's making a dent.
Speaker 1: So she goes, it's my fault, Lisa's dead. I killed
Speaker 1: my daughter, and then she's like, no, it's because Hutton
Speaker 1: misled you, Like, help us stop him and she's like, well,
Speaker 1: Lisa's not the only child who died, and then she
Speaker 1: goes Tommy and her machine starts beeping and she flatlines
Speaker 1: and Tommy runs into his mom's hospital room and Benson's like,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. He opens the curtain and his mom is
Speaker 1: behind the curtain and she has passed away. He hugs
Speaker 1: her body and says I'm sorry. I love you, like
Speaker 1: over and over again, and it is a sad moment.
Speaker 1: It is another Tommy losing a family member, which we
Speaker 1: have seen many many times on this show. At the
Speaker 1: DA's office, Grayleck is confronting Hutton about Susan dying of
Speaker 1: AIDS and he's like, you know that didn't happen whatever,
Speaker 1: and they're like, well, she also made a dying declaration.
Speaker 1: She said Lisa wasn't the only child that you killed,
Speaker 1: and Viola Davis goes the demented ramblings of a woman
Speaker 1: whose brain was Swiss cheese. They won't be admissible, and
Speaker 1: it's like, well, yesterday you put her on the stand,
Speaker 1: so I guess neither. We'll have the testimony that Hutton
Speaker 1: is a god and that everything he did was great.
Speaker 1: So they subpoenaed the prescriptions of the pharmacy in the
Speaker 1: building where his office is, which is so smart. My
Speaker 1: mom's a doctor and she always had a pharmacy in
Speaker 1: her building. So if you can't get the records from
Speaker 1: the doctor, you can get the medication records from the CBS.
Speaker 1: Grayleck says they found two kids who were willfully misiagnosed
Speaker 1: and their grieving parents. Because the children have passed and
Speaker 1: so they're exhuming their bodies. Autopsies will prove they died
Speaker 1: of untreated HIV and Viola's like, Okay, the.
Speaker 3: Jig is fucking up. I gotta get out of here.
Speaker 3: What do you want?
Speaker 1: They want him to plead guilty to criminally negligent homicide,
Speaker 1: Just surrender his medical license and his patient records, and
Speaker 1: he'll do five years in jail for three dead kids.
Speaker 1: I feel like five years is not enough. And he
Speaker 1: says I'm not going to make any deals, and Viola's like,
Speaker 1: take the deal, dog, it's over, and he goes, okay,
Speaker 1: but you're not going to silence me. I'm going to
Speaker 1: fucking run for president and the Republicans will nominate me
Speaker 1: and I will speak the truth from my prison cell
Speaker 1: and people will listen. And now We're at the precinct
Speaker 1: where Benson and Stable are going through Hutton's records and
Speaker 1: they found seven families so far that they have to
Speaker 1: notif probably had children die of untreated HIV. And there's
Speaker 1: nine minutes left to this episode, so I know the
Speaker 1: drama's not over, and Live gives a uh oh, and
Speaker 1: she goes something interesting. I just found in Susan's file
Speaker 1: she was actually HIV positive in nineteen ninety three, not
Speaker 1: just a few years ago when Lisa was born and
Speaker 1: Tommy was born in nineteen ninety four, So she lied
Speaker 1: to her ex boyfriend about when she contracted it on
Speaker 1: this Kenyan Safari.
Speaker 3: So now we really have.
Speaker 1: No idea how she contracted it, but she did get
Speaker 1: it in ninety three, before she ever had a baby.
Speaker 1: So basically they're figuring out Tommy could have HIV and
Speaker 1: we've got to get a court order to have him
Speaker 1: tested at the hospital. Elliott is trying to calm down Tommy.
Speaker 1: He is fighting the hospital staff hard. He kicks Stabler
Speaker 1: in the gut, and I'm very sad that this has
Speaker 1: not made it into my Stabler montage of Stabler getting
Speaker 1: his ass kicked.
Speaker 3: Maybe I have to make a second one, because this
Speaker 3: is a good one.
Speaker 1: He gets thrown back against this machine and he's really
Speaker 1: like the wind has been knocked out of him by
Speaker 1: a teen boy. And before they have a chance to
Speaker 1: do the test, Viola Davis shows up with some kind
Speaker 1: of injunction to stop it, saying she's taking Tommy back
Speaker 1: to the shelter, and Stabler's like, he's not your client,
Speaker 1: and she says, staying Strong hired me to wrap him,
Speaker 1: which I'm assuming is Hutton's organization about, you know, denying HIV,
Speaker 1: and that what she just handed them as a restraining
Speaker 1: order preventing them from testing him for HIV. And Stabler's like,
Speaker 1: he's a minor in ACS custody. They have the right
Speaker 1: to make medical decisions for him, and then she says
Speaker 1: he has the right to refuse medical treatment if he's competent.
Speaker 1: So now we have to argue Tommy's competence. Graylick is
Speaker 1: arguing that competence means he understands the consequences of his decision,
Speaker 1: but he probably doesn't because he's been brainwashed his whole
Speaker 1: life by his mom and this doctor.
Speaker 3: So ooh la la.
Speaker 1: Now we see that she's talking to Stabler who's putting
Speaker 1: his shirt back on and he looks, you know, right
Speaker 1: and tight, and he was getting an X ray from
Speaker 1: the kick in the ribs that Tommy gave him, and
Speaker 1: gray Lick's like, well, we don't really have any standing here,
Speaker 1: like there's nothing we can do to compel him to
Speaker 1: take this test, like it's not on us.
Speaker 3: And then the.
Speaker 1: Doctor goes, oh, by the way, Stabler, you've got two
Speaker 1: broken ribs, and gray Lick is like, ooh, eureka, that's
Speaker 1: just what we need. So we don't even really know
Speaker 1: what she's planning. I mean I do because I watch
Speaker 1: hours and hours of the show. But now Stabler shows
Speaker 1: up at Tommy's school and arrests him for assaulting a
Speaker 1: police officer and purp walks him right out of his school,
Speaker 1: which is either going to make him really cool or
Speaker 1: really not. I would say probably really cool. Now at
Speaker 1: a competency hearing, his lawyer is like, Tommy, you get
Speaker 1: that most of the world knows that HIV causes AIDS, Like,
Speaker 1: but do we don't know if Viola Davis believes it.
Speaker 1: She's like, Tommy, you understand the medical facts of the case,
Speaker 1: and he's like, I do and she's like, but your
Speaker 1: mother and doctor Hutton believe differently.
Speaker 3: Why do you believe it? Do you believe it because
Speaker 3: they told you that or because you think it's the truth.
Speaker 1: And then he goes, after we learned about AIDS in school.
Speaker 1: I talk to my mom and she told me there
Speaker 1: was no proof of what they taught me in school,
Speaker 1: and it made sense. So you're basically only believing it
Speaker 1: because your mom told you. And what made so much
Speaker 1: sense to you? He says, and he repeats like the
Speaker 1: same shit We've heard the entire episode, like bullshit, bullshit.
Speaker 1: Oh like it can't it's it's the pharmaceutical company. They
Speaker 1: want the money, blah blah blah. AIDS isn't real. And
Speaker 1: then Grayli asks him do you believe the Holocaust happened?
Speaker 3: And he's like, of course I do. Why would I not?
Speaker 1: And she's like, well, there are Holocaust deniers. Do you
Speaker 1: see how that's the same there are people who think
Speaker 1: the Holocaust didn't happen. And he's like, why would you
Speaker 1: believe someone who tells you AIDS isn't real? The same
Speaker 1: as why would you believe someone who tell you the
Speaker 1: Holocaust isn't real? And he goes because my mom wouldn't
Speaker 1: lie to me. And it's like cue to the slide
Speaker 1: show of the millions of moms who lie to their kids.
Speaker 1: Like cut to me lying to my kids every fucking day,
Speaker 1: telling them that drinking bathwater is going to give them diarrhea.
Speaker 3: It might, it might not, I don't care.
Speaker 2: You also said YouTube doesn't work at your house. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I told them cocomelan does not work at my house.
Speaker 2: I am telling them lies for their health, and uh,
Speaker 2: I don't care.
Speaker 1: It's maybe like I just want them to stop drinking bathwater,
Speaker 1: but they won't. Okay, anyway, drink bathwater so bad they
Speaker 1: know it makes me crazy.
Speaker 3: They'll just dip their faces.
Speaker 1: In and go, I just drank bathwater, and I'm like, stop,
Speaker 1: so I probably should just shut up about it and
Speaker 1: they'll stop.
Speaker 3: But same with pool water. Apparently that does give you diarrhea.
Speaker 3: But I don't know. I'm making things up now.
Speaker 1: Graylick is like, your mom could actually totally lie to
Speaker 1: you because if you are positive for HIV, it would
Speaker 1: shatter her whole fantasy. And he's like, I'm fine, I'm
Speaker 1: not sick. You're just trying to scare me and They're like,
Speaker 1: you should be scared. Your mom would wink your ass
Speaker 1: and she watched your sister die. Do you have to
Speaker 1: be dying too before you can see her lies? And
Speaker 1: then Tommy's like stop it, please stop it, stop it,
Speaker 1: And then Graylick rests. So now it's time for the
Speaker 1: judge to deliberate, and he's like, the question is when
Speaker 1: does the state have the right to force someone to
Speaker 1: receive medical care. If we knew about your sister's case,
Speaker 1: I would have compelled her to be treated because she
Speaker 1: was only four years old. But Tommy is a young man,
Speaker 1: a different story. He's a minor, but he is aware
Speaker 1: of the consequences of not being tested for HIV. The
Speaker 1: judge disagrees with the choice that he's making, but he
Speaker 1: will not take away his right to make the choice
Speaker 1: and make the decisions about his own health, so he
Speaker 1: upholds the restraining order.
Speaker 3: I sort of.
Speaker 1: Don't get that because he does not have confidence. He
Speaker 1: has been brainwashed from a young age, So I disagree
Speaker 1: with the judge. Gray Lick moves immediately to remand Tommy
Speaker 1: without bail for assaulting a cop and being a known
Speaker 1: flight risk, and em It's like, this is vindictive, and
Speaker 1: then Stabler is like gray like, what the fuck are
Speaker 1: you doing?
Speaker 3: And she's like why.
Speaker 1: Yeah, She's like, his mom just died, his sister just died, Yeah,
Speaker 1: his dad died in a Safari accident.
Speaker 3: He really doesn't have anybody.
Speaker 1: He's in a shelter and Grayle's like, I'm treating him
Speaker 1: like the adult he wants to be treated like. And
Speaker 1: then Stabler's like, get some perspective, bitch, Like the only
Speaker 1: crime is guilty of is being born to the wrong mother,
Speaker 1: and stablors like, drop it.
Speaker 3: We lost.
Speaker 1: So Grayleck goes, all right, fine, I withdraw the motion.
Speaker 1: I dismissed the charges, and then Graylex says to Stabler,
Speaker 1: I hope you know what you're doing. So then Tommy
Speaker 1: walks up to Stabler and goes thanks, and he goes,
Speaker 1: you still owe me for the ribs and Tommy goes, well,
Speaker 1: I'm not getting tested, and Stabler was like, just do
Speaker 1: me one favor.
Speaker 3: So now they're at Mercy Hospital.
Speaker 1: To introduce Tommy to someone that doctor Massey introduced Stabler to,
Speaker 1: and it is this kid named Kyle.
Speaker 3: He is sitting on a hospital bed.
Speaker 1: He is bald, clearly from chemo and Tommy goes, you're
Speaker 1: not going to change my mind because he has AIDS,
Speaker 1: and Kyle goes, I don't have AIDS. I have brain cancer.
Speaker 1: I told my parents I didn't feel well, but we're
Speaker 1: Christian scientists, so we don't believe in medicine or doctors.
Speaker 3: My parents just told me to pray.
Speaker 1: He said he knew he was going to be okay
Speaker 1: because he was praying, but then he went blind and
Speaker 1: then his friend took him to the hospital. The doctors
Speaker 1: gave him chemo and radiation and he already got his
Speaker 1: site back. So Tommy goes, oh, your parents must have
Speaker 1: been stoked, and Kyle goes, no, they were pissed. They
Speaker 1: thought I was dissing God. I just want to get better,
Speaker 1: and he's like, what about everything you believe in? Tommy
Speaker 1: asks him, and he's like, well, God created doctors too,
Speaker 1: Like why would he give us cures for diseases and
Speaker 1: treatments if he didn't want us to use them? So
Speaker 1: that seems like it's gotten through to Tommy. We cut
Speaker 1: to Tommy at Melinda's house. Melinda comes out and says,
Speaker 1: Tommy wants to talk to you. Stabler goes and sits
Speaker 1: with him. He goes, you don't have to tell me,
Speaker 1: and he goes, I want to tell you, and he
Speaker 1: goes the test came back positive. He looks pissed and
Speaker 1: he's like, I don't want to die. And Stabler's like,
Speaker 1: You've got your whole life ahead of you. And now
Speaker 1: that he's going to get treated, he's got his whole
Speaker 1: life ahead of him. And that's dick wolf baby, fucked up,
Speaker 1: fucked up, fucked up, and we're gonna keep on the
Speaker 1: fucked train going.
Speaker 3: I guess let's keep the fucked train going choo choo.
Speaker 2: So we're gonna go through a lot of stuff, a
Speaker 2: few cases, so you know, just get in there and
Speaker 2: get ready to get pissed.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: Also, obviously, federal health officials and AIDS experts, they say
Speaker 2: HIV unquestionably causes AIDS, although it can take more than
Speaker 2: a decade to develop. HIV tests detect antibodies to the
Speaker 2: virus and are accurate predictors of who is infected.
Speaker 3: Just so everybody knows, just so everyone is absolutely clear.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So this case is about Kristen Massori and her
Speaker 2: daughter Eliza James Scovell. So doctor Peter Havens is a
Speaker 2: professor of pediatrics and epediomology.
Speaker 3: I said it wrong.
Speaker 2: I don't care EPIDEMI yeah, considering we just went through COVID,
Speaker 2: it's insane. I can't say that out loud. At the
Speaker 2: Medical College of Wisconsin, and he said to the La
Speaker 2: Times that contrarian HIV theories promoted on about a four
Speaker 2: hundred websites are bogus bolooney. And I only included the
Speaker 2: quote because of bogus bologne.
Speaker 3: I love bogus blogne I want to use it. I
Speaker 3: want that to become boloney. That is our thing.
Speaker 2: Write that down, Casey, so we don't forget. He says
Speaker 2: it's all pseudoscience. They choose one paper and deny the
Speaker 2: existence of one hundred others. And we talked about that
Speaker 2: where it's like all these doctors disagree, like, why are
Speaker 2: you so.
Speaker 3: Gung ho about one article? Yeah, one looney tune. It's weird.
Speaker 2: So Kristin MAJORI did not believe that HIV cause dates.
Speaker 3: She was HIV positive.
Speaker 2: She was a mother of two and very vocal and
Speaker 2: a well known leader of this movement that challenged the
Speaker 2: basic medical understanding and treatment acquired immune a deficiency syndrome.
Speaker 2: It's she obviously did not vaccinate her kids. She does
Speaker 2: not believe in shots. She gave birth at home because
Speaker 2: she wanted to avoid any tests for HIV or any
Speaker 2: of the meds that would be required by California law. So,
Speaker 2: I mean, that's the thing. It's just like purposely avoiding help.
Speaker 2: It's crazy. But she did give birth at home with midwives,
Speaker 2: so no one could track anything. And then in early
Speaker 2: spring two thousand and five, Christine went on a radio
Speaker 2: show talking about how she does not take HIV meds
Speaker 2: even while she was pregnant and has never tested her
Speaker 2: children for the virus. In their interview with Air America,
Speaker 2: she said how her two kids, seven year old Charlie
Speaker 2: and three year old Eliza Jane, were healthy and did
Speaker 2: not have any respiratory issues flus, colds, ear infections, nothing.
Speaker 2: That's what she was saying on this radio interview. Seven
Speaker 2: weeks later, Eliza Jane was dead, so her three year
Speaker 2: old daughter dead.
Speaker 3: End of April.
Speaker 2: Eliza Jane was ill and she developed a mucus like
Speaker 2: a yellow mucus running nose, according to Christine, as told
Speaker 2: to a coroner's investigator. April twentieth, she took her daughter
Speaker 2: to the doctor who found clear lungs, no fever, and
Speaker 2: adequate oxygen levels. Still not feeling good, So five days
Speaker 2: later the mom sought a second opinion and he suspected
Speaker 2: an ear infection but believed it could be resolved without antibiotics.
Speaker 3: And then a follow called. The mom said Eliza was
Speaker 3: doing better.
Speaker 2: Then she reached out to this Denver physician Philip and
Speaker 2: Ko and Ky whatever I m CEO and I want
Speaker 2: to say incanto. So doctor Philip was visiting La for
Speaker 2: a lecture and he was asked by Christine to examine her,
Speaker 2: and he did find liquid in her right ear drum.
Speaker 3: May fourteenth.
Speaker 2: This Philip guy prescribed a moxicillin even though he is
Speaker 2: not licensed to practice medicine in California.
Speaker 3: Honey, go back to Denver. Like what?
Speaker 2: The next day, Eliza Jane vomited several times and became
Speaker 2: pale and then stopped breathing and then quotes the mother
Speaker 2: total Corner's office. According to La Times, her daughter crumpled
Speaker 2: like a paper doll. The next morning, she died at
Speaker 2: a Van Nuy's hospital.
Speaker 3: Now, all three.
Speaker 2: Doctors that Christine reached out to are all known for
Speaker 2: their unconventional approaches.
Speaker 3: To medicine.
Speaker 2: These are guys who are staunch opponents of mandatory vaccinations, vocal.
Speaker 2: One of them's a vocal critic of male circumcision, you
Speaker 2: know that kind of a vibe.
Speaker 3: And that's the thing.
Speaker 2: It's like, she knew she had HIV and she still
Speaker 2: only went to people who didn't believe in it while
Speaker 2: your daughter is sick.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I think it's like I do think it's
Speaker 1: like a really really severe form of denial, right. It's
Speaker 1: like if you just deny, deny, deny, it'll go away.
Speaker 1: And if there's one doctor telling you that you're right,
Speaker 1: that your denial will make it go away, you're like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's the doctor I love.
Speaker 3: And I'm going with him.
Speaker 2: You know, I know in my head it's like, you
Speaker 2: would do anything for your kid.
Speaker 3: Your kid is sick, you would go to doctor.
Speaker 1: You wouldn't only find weird doctors that agreed with you
Speaker 1: would go to a You would just do what you
Speaker 1: needed to do well. But then you'd have to face
Speaker 1: that you probably gave your kids HIV, Like it's your
Speaker 1: fault because you did absolutely nothing. You denied your disease
Speaker 1: because of your own fear and you know, delusion it's
Speaker 1: your fault ultimately, but y.
Speaker 2: On September fifteenth, two thousand and five, a report came
Speaker 2: out by the Los Angeles County Corners that concluded it
Speaker 2: was AIDS related pneumonia. Then the LA Times alerted a
Speaker 2: bunch of medical experts for this article, and they all
Speaker 2: said that any doctor who knew her circumstances should have
Speaker 2: tested those kids. And if the mom refused to refer
Speaker 2: to do that, then you refer the matter to authorities.
Speaker 2: That's just you know, what's the what's the their code
Speaker 2: of ethics.
Speaker 3: The hippocratic oath first do no harm?
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, thank you, Like there's probably a rule about this. So,
Speaker 2: according to interviews and records, two of the doctors knew
Speaker 2: that Christine was the HIV status, and they knew that
Speaker 2: she breastfed her kids and still would not treat or
Speaker 2: get better help. So Michael Shapiro, an ethicist in law
Speaker 2: professor at USC in the LA Times, is quoted saying,
Speaker 2: if you look away from something you're supposed to be
Speaker 2: looking for, that's called willful blindness, and wilful blindness is
Speaker 2: one aspect of determining the negligence.
Speaker 3: One of the.
Speaker 2: Doctors is quoted saying it would have been wrong to
Speaker 2: force Christine to test her daughter because this is a democracy. Okay,
Speaker 2: Well she's dead. I don't know how free she feels
Speaker 2: now after her daughter's deaths. She's quoted in the LA
Speaker 2: Times saying I am devastated, broken, grieving mother, but I
Speaker 2: am not second guessing or questioning my understanding of the issue.
Speaker 2: And again, she breastfed both her kids, and research shows
Speaker 2: that increases the risk of transmission up to fifth fifteen percent.
Speaker 2: A doctor who has never treated Eliza, but is a
Speaker 2: New Jersey physician who's treated hundreds of HIV positive children
Speaker 2: to the LA Times, said I can tell you without
Speaker 2: any doubt that at the outset of her illness, if
Speaker 2: she was appropriately evaluated, she would have been appropriately treated
Speaker 2: and she would not have died. And so then Christine
Speaker 2: actually has a book called what If Everything you thought
Speaker 2: you knew about AIDS was wrong?
Speaker 3: And it's like, why don't you write another book? I
Speaker 3: killed my daughter?
Speaker 2: Yeah, but in the book she said she doesn't know
Speaker 2: how she became HIV positive. She has no idea, and
Speaker 2: she believes that you get it through flu shots and
Speaker 2: viral infections. Oh my god, And I just wonder how
Speaker 2: many people's lives she ruined because she started an organization
Speaker 2: called Alive and Well AIDS Alternatives, which was a nonprofit
Speaker 2: that had a website and a toll free hotline who
Speaker 2: helped HIV positive mothers who shun AIDS medication and want
Speaker 2: to breastfeed their children.
Speaker 3: To do so.
Speaker 2: God she suggests, Oh, don't tell anybody but trusted family,
Speaker 2: and only talk to doctors who will mirror your beliefs.
Speaker 3: That's like advice.
Speaker 2: Yeah, But like, if you don't believe you can give
Speaker 2: your kids the disease, then why fight. It's so hard
Speaker 2: to avoid the testing and we've obviously talked to This
Speaker 2: is like munchausen bi This is an issue. This is mental.
Speaker 2: This is mental because if you don't believe that can
Speaker 2: be transmitted, test your kid. Yeah, prove everyone wrong. Also,
Speaker 2: why gung ho to breastfeed? Like, I just don't get it.
Speaker 2: So overall, like there's few victories and AIDS is what
Speaker 2: I read, Like very few. You know, we're still struggling
Speaker 2: to find cures and all of that. But like bringing
Speaker 2: down the rate of infections and deaths among young children
Speaker 2: is one of the giant victories. So it seems weird
Speaker 2: not to use these things. So Margaret Lampi, a health
Speaker 2: education specialist with the Division of h IV AIDS Prevention
Speaker 2: at the US Centers of Disease Control and Prevention, that's her.
Speaker 2: So she said, in nineteen ninety two, there were nine
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty two cases of kids with AIDS, and
Speaker 2: in two thousand and three there was only fifty nine.
Speaker 3: Children under thirteen nationally that had AIDS.
Speaker 2: But according to the CDC, we can't count these rogue parents,
Speaker 2: right right, So and then I checked on the National
Speaker 2: Institute of Health website and in twenty twenty one, only
Speaker 2: fifty three cases.
Speaker 3: Were reported of children under thirteen.
Speaker 2: Eight, So that's pretty h So all you have to
Speaker 2: do is take this AZT drug while pregnant and it
Speaker 2: lowers your chances of transferring to your baby to less
Speaker 2: than two percent. Like yeah, But once authorities settled on
Speaker 2: the cause of Eliza James's death, a focus then had
Speaker 2: to be turned onto the parents and their remaining child, Charlie.
Speaker 2: Charlie had tested negative for HIV three times, like, he
Speaker 2: kept not having HIV, so that so he was able
Speaker 2: to stay with his pays Durrance. But it's all just
Speaker 2: tough because the law is not clear when a child
Speaker 2: dies because they did not receive adequate medical treatment. I
Speaker 2: guess it's really difficult to prove all this, and there's
Speaker 2: few precedents, and there's just like parents and doctors get
Speaker 2: a wide discretion by the courts.
Speaker 3: This is what I read.
Speaker 2: So the LA Police did investigate whether Majori and Scoville
Speaker 2: were negligent in not testing the girl for HIV, but
Speaker 2: in two thousand and six, the La County DA's office
Speaker 2: decided not to file criminal charges, saying that it would
Speaker 2: have been difficult to prove criminal negligence because Majory had
Speaker 2: sought medical advice and it is clear in this case
Speaker 2: that the child welfare authorities had not been told about
Speaker 2: Majori's HIV positive status, and so like that her son
Speaker 2: was at risk and all of this like there's nothing
Speaker 2: in the agency records. But the investigator, Rebecca McCauley from DCFS,
Speaker 2: visited the home and in her paperwork wrote in February
Speaker 2: two thousand parents appear appropriate, extremely focused in the child
Speaker 2: well being in every aspect, and she relied on her
Speaker 2: own observations and assurances from one of the quacks. So
Speaker 2: like she didn't go talk to any other medical professionals
Speaker 2: or get any tests because she was talking to one
Speaker 2: of the family doctors who's a quack. Yeah, and taking
Speaker 2: his you know, guidance and neglect. According to DCFS, is
Speaker 2: like messy house parents don't care, and that's not all
Speaker 2: encompassing into what it is to be a good parent.
Speaker 3: So their definition of good parent isn't it's like.
Speaker 2: It's very all of her taft, you know, throw back
Speaker 2: to the Tom Scarett episode of SVU, where it's like,
Speaker 2: you can have a messy home and be a good parent,
Speaker 2: and you can have a clean home and be an
Speaker 2: awful parent. So like their definitions are based in biases
Speaker 2: of like class and stuff.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you.
Speaker 2: Can tell while she's the worst, like she said she
Speaker 2: was sad after her child died, and then her health
Speaker 2: began to decline, and then she's quoted saying but with
Speaker 2: some herbs, walks and yoga, I feel a lot better.
Speaker 3: Like that shouldn't help.
Speaker 2: You feel better for yeah, killing your kid, but okay,
Speaker 2: And just weeks after her death, the parents made a
Speaker 2: website and in it they wrote, Eliza Jane had simply
Speaker 2: chosen to go home. Why our child, so appreciated, so held,
Speaker 2: so carefully nurtured, and not one ignored, abused or abandoned.
Speaker 2: How come what we offered was not enough to keep
Speaker 2: her here? When children with far less impatient, distracted parents,
Speaker 2: a small apartment on a busy street, extended daycare, oster
Speaker 2: Meyer lunchables will happily stay.
Speaker 3: Kunt Oh my god.
Speaker 2: So you think that someone that gives their kid a
Speaker 2: lunchable deserves their child to die more than you because
Speaker 2: they live in an apartment. Yeah, like she's a terrible person. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: bad person. It's like whatever.
Speaker 3: She died.
Speaker 2: So she died in two thousand and eight at fifty
Speaker 2: two years old of pneumonia. I good and until her death,
Speaker 2: she was defianed until the end, and she no autopsy
Speaker 2: was done for her.
Speaker 3: And then after she.
Speaker 2: Died, the husband Scolville, there was a lawsuit and they
Speaker 2: did settle a lawsuit with the La County Coroner's office
Speaker 2: because they found a toxicologist who served on an advisory
Speaker 2: group of their organizational Live and Well Aids alternatives to
Speaker 2: say that she died from an allergic reaction to the antibiotic,
Speaker 2: but the terms of the lawsuit were not disclosed.
Speaker 3: In any court documents, and so these.
Speaker 1: Fucking grifters got to get away with money from the
Speaker 1: county after all, Oh my god, because.
Speaker 2: They found another toxicologist. Now this case is crazy, this
Speaker 2: next one. And I apologize. I feel like my information
Speaker 2: is kind of scattered because this is all like this
Speaker 2: is in China state run media.
Speaker 3: It's translating. I'm like trying to read all these.
Speaker 2: Things, and I don't know, but it's it just seemed
Speaker 2: in It seemed like something our listeners would like. Okay,
Speaker 2: So this is the case of Who Wanlin. And this
Speaker 2: guy is like China's doctor death. He's a self described
Speaker 2: healer who is linked to more than one hundred and
Speaker 2: forty deaths in the nineteen nineties. In two thousand, he
Speaker 2: was in prison for illegally practicing medicine for fifteen years.
Speaker 2: He claimed to possess mysterious forces and that's how he.
Speaker 3: Treated his patient.
Speaker 2: So the traditional practice is called quigong or qui. For sure,
Speaker 2: I'm probably saying it wrong, but it had revivals in
Speaker 2: China after the death of Mao Zedong, and there's just
Speaker 2: like an influx of cults and weird beliefs in this
Speaker 2: kind of traditional practice came back and this doctor who
Speaker 2: believes water causes disease and patients needed to be dehydrated
Speaker 2: with magic medicine using powerful salts from and this is
Speaker 2: from the Global Times and then Britten in the Guardian.
Speaker 3: That's what I mean. There's just a lot of yeah,
Speaker 3: moving pieces.
Speaker 2: Thousands of people flocked to him to receive this miracle
Speaker 2: water remedy that had high levels of sodium sulfate. And
Speaker 2: so this guy is like a Catholic priest though, so
Speaker 2: anytime his operations were closed down, he was moved. So
Speaker 2: he was in shank Shandhi Province and then he went
Speaker 2: and got a license to practice in Henan Province. So like,
Speaker 2: he just kept moving around after killing people. And even
Speaker 2: though linked to the desks, they have never been proven.
Speaker 2: And this fucker's only completed primary school. He actually started
Speaker 2: studying traditional healing while he was serving a prison term
Speaker 2: for manslaughter in the nineteen eighties. He killed a businessman
Speaker 2: and he was supposed to serve alize sentence, but like,
Speaker 2: they just kept letting him out and he couldn't stop
Speaker 2: killing people. So in nineteen ninety six he was jailed again,
Speaker 2: then freed again in two thousand and then jailed again,
Speaker 2: and like, I don't understand. And it also says that
Speaker 2: he was jailed in nineteen seventy four for anti revolution activities.
Speaker 2: There's a man stayed in jailed and so the only
Speaker 2: Wikipedia article I found on this man was Wikipedia Italia
Speaker 2: and I got had it translated. So it says that
Speaker 2: from childhood to adulthood there's no information on him. So,
Speaker 2: and he's been arrested for fraud and kidnapping and human
Speaker 2: trafficking on top of the intentional homicide.
Speaker 3: I'm so confused. If anyone listens.
Speaker 2: From China, please help us. It also says in nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety three, while in prison, he opened a medical practice
Speaker 2: where he worked and did stuff whatever. So then's he's
Speaker 2: released early in twenty eleven after a term reduction and
Speaker 2: he was back to it two years later he was
Speaker 2: arrested for killing a twenty two year old college graduate
Speaker 2: with poison soup. So in late August twenty thirteen, who
Speaker 2: and his followers took a group of twelve in quotes
Speaker 2: patients to a hotel in jinyan Kon County on a
Speaker 2: I don't think that's it though, whatever another county on
Speaker 2: this health program and this college student Yun Huyang Jun Huyog,
Speaker 2: one of his patients, the college student and devotee of
Speaker 2: traditional medicine, died after taking a substance provided by WHO.
Speaker 2: The victim was found with a high level of toxic
Speaker 2: sodium sulfate in a system. It is like a globber's salt,
Speaker 2: which is a colorless hydrated sodium sulfate used in paper
Speaker 2: and glass manufacturing.
Speaker 3: And it's a cathartic and diuretic. Wow. Yeah, And he.
Speaker 2: Was taken into custody and heenan province after police suspected
Speaker 2: you know, this was another herbal broth poisoning from this motherfucker.
Speaker 2: And then another patient, Nongmnguang, became unconscious after taking Who's concoction,
Speaker 2: but was saved by doctors at an actual hospital. The
Speaker 2: delay in apprehending him suggests that maybe he had friends
Speaker 2: in high places who believed in his powers or gained
Speaker 2: financial advantage from his operations, because for him not to
Speaker 2: be sentenced to death is strange since capital executions were
Speaker 2: very frequent and like one of his other victims included
Speaker 2: Lou Famine, the mayor of the small town in Henan,
Speaker 2: oh my god. And so then in twenty fourteen it
Speaker 2: said he got fifteen more years in prison, and he
Speaker 2: had two other partners in this operation who got eleven
Speaker 2: and three years.
Speaker 1: But that's like he's out in five We got to
Speaker 1: watch out. This guy's going to get out in five years.
Speaker 2: So what I found was he was in jail in
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy four, then again in nineteen eighty for murder,
Speaker 2: then again in nineteen eighty six, then again in two thousand,
Speaker 2: then again in twenty thirteen.
Speaker 3: Like what crazy? So it's just amount of quack. I
Speaker 3: don't know.
Speaker 2: Okay, this case does not connect at all. But this
Speaker 2: woman's mugshots were so scary and haunting. I legit didn't
Speaker 2: want to look at her pictures, Like I had to
Speaker 2: scroll fast away, like I you.
Speaker 3: Know, I'm googling.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she is so scary, and I feel like I
Speaker 2: have to touch on it because we're all freaks.
Speaker 3: Okay, look at her. How do you feel do you
Speaker 3: feel like she might this old timey lady? Yeah? Oh yeah,
Speaker 3: she's haunted. Yeah, yeah, scary.
Speaker 2: So legit, I was like I couldn't even look at
Speaker 2: the picture. But I got most of this in the
Speaker 2: Smithsonian magazine, and it said that she And then while
Speaker 2: I was reading it, it said that she was into
Speaker 2: the occult and had strange abilities, and perhaps she was
Speaker 2: hypnotizing people into starving themselves to death. So there was
Speaker 2: a reason I didn't want to look at her eyes
Speaker 2: in that photo.
Speaker 3: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: And then I fucking read she's in the occult, like
Speaker 2: this bitch's powers through death. So her name is Linda Hazard,
Speaker 2: and she was a quote unquote doctor who starved her
Speaker 2: patients to death. So she killed as many as a
Speaker 2: dozen people. I don't know why I laughed. So she
Speaker 2: killed as many as a dozen people in the early
Speaker 2: twentieth century, and they paid for it willingly.
Speaker 3: And this happened.
Speaker 1: O La la Ola, let's say it Olalla Washington. I
Speaker 1: feel like you'll know. It's one of these islands next
Speaker 1: to Seattle.
Speaker 3: Okay, wait, where is it? I'm looking. Oh, I think
Speaker 3: it's also a brand.
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, I think it's also like a brand
Speaker 1: of granola bar Botta Wala.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah.
Speaker 2: So it's like a little town fairy ride across from Seattle.
Speaker 2: And she had very little formal training, no medical degree,
Speaker 2: but she was licensed by the state of Washington as
Speaker 2: a fasting specialist. And I guess for feminism, that's cool
Speaker 2: as a woman to get certification.
Speaker 3: Okay, let's give her her flowers.
Speaker 2: But Black Ceiling did think that the root of all
Speaker 2: evil lay in food, specifically too much of it. And
Speaker 2: she wrote a book she's self published, and once a
Speaker 2: book self published, I can't trust it in nineteen oh eight,
Speaker 2: and she says that fasting for the cure of disease,
Speaker 2: like fasting is the only thing. And she would feed
Speaker 2: her victims only vegetable broth made from canned tomatoes twice
Speaker 2: a day and no more. And then she would give
Speaker 2: them hours long enemas in a bathtub, and that hardcore
Speaker 2: massages that felt more like beatings.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, oh like yeah.
Speaker 2: And then she had these she got these two clients
Speaker 2: that were Uppercross sisters, and they came and the doctor
Speaker 2: had been appointed the executor of one of their estates,
Speaker 2: and then, like the sisters, basically signed away their power
Speaker 2: of attorney. And this woman became guardian of life for
Speaker 2: these women. And then you find out all of her
Speaker 2: little victims were rich people that she starved to death,
Speaker 2: while while in their starving state, slowly took away their
Speaker 2: estates and money.
Speaker 3: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: So with these sisters, like she found like she was
Speaker 2: found with jewels, she took thousands of dollars, clothing, like
Speaker 2: all of this stuff, wile starving and enemying them to death.
Speaker 2: And then family members of the sisters started digging and
Speaker 2: they found out this Hazard lady was connected to the
Speaker 2: deaths of several other wealthy individuals. And yeah, rich people
Speaker 2: get tricked. This is this is like the botox of
Speaker 2: its time. Really, you know, like I'm going to starve
Speaker 2: and do cool shit. And yeah, so many of these
Speaker 2: people signed over large portions of their estates over before
Speaker 2: their deaths. And finally, on August fifteenth, nineteen eleven, Kitsap
Speaker 2: County authorities arrested Linda Hazzard and charges the first degree
Speaker 2: murder for starving Claire Williamson to death. She took no
Speaker 2: responsibility obviously, and believed that if you died during a fast,
Speaker 2: you had something that was going to kill you soon anyway.
Speaker 3: Hazard believe that's like the people.
Speaker 2: I mean, we haven't really grown as a culture, because
Speaker 2: that's what people with COVID were like, Oh, well, you
Speaker 2: were unhealthy anyways, you would have died you know that
Speaker 2: was Yeah, definitely the vibe of like, well, then don't
Speaker 2: be obese or have diabetes or something.
Speaker 3: I actually walked by the pool in my neighborhood and
Speaker 3: there's a bench for my parents' friends that were the
Speaker 3: first and like they like died immediately on COVID, like
Speaker 3: hours apart from each other. We visited the bench. Okay,
Speaker 3: so Hazard believed the time was an attack on her. Okay,
Speaker 3: so while she was getting arrested, she believed that this
Speaker 3: was an attack on her position as a successful woman
Speaker 3: and a battle between conventional medicine and more a more
Speaker 3: natural approach. The verdict ended up being manslaughter and she
Speaker 3: was sentenced to hard labor at the penitentiary. Penitent I'm
Speaker 3: not you say it penitentiary.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know that one's a hard one for me
Speaker 2: and wha Laeah Washington. But then, for reasons unknown, the
Speaker 2: governor pardoned her. Oh she's a witch. I'm like scared
Speaker 2: she's gonna hat me for just looking on a phone.
Speaker 2: She they should do this on Wicked Words or like whatever.
Speaker 2: The podcast isn't exactly right where they do old timey crime.
Speaker 2: Maybe they already have who knows, she's served two years,
Speaker 2: and then she moved to New Zealand. And then in
Speaker 2: nineteen twenty she returned to Olala and built a sanitarium
Speaker 2: of her dreams and called it the School for Health,
Speaker 2: which eventually burned down in nineteen thirty five. And if
Speaker 2: you want to know more, there's a book called Starvation Heights,
Speaker 2: a true story of Murder and Malice in the Woods
Speaker 2: of the Pacific Northwest, and it's by Greg Olsen. Two
Speaker 2: g'sdam Now this last case is actually it's going to
Speaker 2: go full circle to the first case. And that's how
Speaker 2: I thought I would end it. So this is about
Speaker 2: Paul M. Flice. And he is one of the three
Speaker 2: doctors that Christine MAJORI reached out to about Eliza Jame.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, people with the last named Flice cannot
Speaker 1: catch a break.
Speaker 2: So he was unconventional, duh. And he's a pediatrician in
Speaker 2: Los Phelis. And sorry, that's just buy it. Yeah, that's
Speaker 2: like ten minutes for me. I like looked at Kara
Speaker 2: like she hired him.
Speaker 3: I'm like, my kids go there?
Speaker 2: Yeah, who to the La Times is quoted talking about
Speaker 2: Eliza Jane's death and he wrote, I don't understand it
Speaker 2: because I've never seen her sick or with anything resembling
Speaker 2: what she supposedly died of. I don't believe I could
Speaker 2: have done anything to change this outcome. He is the
Speaker 2: reason that DCFS found no evidence of neglect.
Speaker 3: Like it was him that was.
Speaker 2: Reassuring the reports. He is quoted in the official reports.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like he signed the death certificate, probably the way
Speaker 1: that this guy did in the episode.
Speaker 3: Oh my God.
Speaker 2: He knew that the mom had HIV and that she
Speaker 2: rested her kids everything. And he is the one that
Speaker 2: earlier quoted about the democracy. And he's a trained pharmacist
Speaker 2: in osteopath. But then the law was passed in the
Speaker 2: early nineteen sixties in California that allowed osteopaths to convert
Speaker 2: to an MD degree. And I know there's a lot
Speaker 2: of controversy with dos and mds and I don't really know.
Speaker 3: I'm not getting involved now.
Speaker 2: If you're thinking, wow, Flice, you know, Kara, you meant
Speaker 2: something familiar, right.
Speaker 3: He is the father of the Hollywood Madam Heidi Fly
Speaker 3: shut the fuck up. I was totally like.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, weird to many bad people with the last
Speaker 1: name Flights. Not that she's bad for being a madam,
Speaker 1: I feel like she was a shady lady.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, so how crazy is I did bury the
Speaker 2: lead a little bit, but oh that is his daughter.
Speaker 2: And in May of nineteen ninety five, he pled guilty
Speaker 2: to helping his daughter launder hundreds of thousands of dollars
Speaker 2: to hide the income from her prostitution ring. Oh my gosh,
Speaker 2: yeah the agreement At the time, this guy was sixty
Speaker 2: one years old. He pled guilty to federal conspiracy and
Speaker 2: bank fraud charges, and for over three years, doctor Fly
Speaker 2: slied on loan applications and falsely claimed his daughter was
Speaker 2: an employee at his medical practice. How you do one
Speaker 2: thing is how you do everything, Rema trigger everybody base.
Speaker 2: He basically signed the mortgage on a luxury home that
Speaker 2: was used as his daughter's headquarters for her call girl ring.
Speaker 2: Outside the courtroom, he is quoted by the La Times saying,
Speaker 2: I never intended to cheat or lie or steal. I
Speaker 2: only wanted to help my daughter.
Speaker 3: Help her rent an apartment.
Speaker 1: Don't buy her a mansion to run a full ring,
Speaker 1: crazy quack.
Speaker 2: So the max that he was looking at was ten
Speaker 2: months in prison, a halfway house or a home detention,
Speaker 2: A possible fine, but what he did get was one
Speaker 2: day in prison, three years probation, six hundred and twenty
Speaker 2: five hours of community service, and a fifty thousand dollars fine.
Speaker 2: He died at the age of eighty and July twenty fourteen,
Speaker 2: and he worked right up until his death. He made
Speaker 2: house calls, devoted patients. I think Madonna's kid went to him.
Speaker 2: And nowhere in his death announcement anywhere was it like, oh,
Speaker 2: this is a quack, this is a maniac, this is
Speaker 2: like an anti AIDS guy.
Speaker 3: Oh my god. Nothing.
Speaker 2: He worked in LA for decades up until his recent
Speaker 2: death in twenty fourteen.
Speaker 3: Holy shit. Yeah, that's fucking crazy. I'm blown away. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Oh yes.
Speaker 1: Buried Bones is the podcast I meant to say. Buried
Speaker 1: Bones is the podcast on this network that where they
Speaker 1: do talk about older, older crimes. Damn, Lisa, thank you
Speaker 1: for doing all that research on four different crimes.
Speaker 3: Essentially appreciate it, but all of them are just like
Speaker 3: is this real? Is this not?
Speaker 2: And are these mystics gonna come haunt me? Like I
Speaker 2: am scared of who? And I am scared of miss Hazard,
Speaker 2: Like I do not like looking at their faces.
Speaker 3: She looks like a lady that's like not gonna let
Speaker 3: you eat for sure.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, it's scary, scary, Oh my god.
Speaker 4: Also, there was a ample Hills Creamery opened in the
Speaker 4: old office of Paul Flice in Los Feelies. So if
Speaker 4: you ever were in Los Feels, an away the ample
Speaker 4: Hills Creamery that used to be his office.
Speaker 3: But now it's a Mexican restaurant, right it is. I
Speaker 3: don't know what it is now. I just ate there.
Speaker 1: No, I just eight at his Oh my god, it's
Speaker 1: like a beautiful, like craftsman house type of thing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's now called Tacos to Madre And I just went
Speaker 1: there like three months ago.
Speaker 3: Wow, I've eaten at the doctor's old how And.
Speaker 2: Not to like connect it, but like, okay, Eliza Jane's
Speaker 2: mom she made an annual salary of like fifteen million dollars.
Speaker 2: She was really hot, like she had a fashion line
Speaker 2: or worked in fashion or whatever. The Hazard Lady preyed
Speaker 2: upon the rich. This guy in La seeing rich clients,
Speaker 2: like there is something about oh I did chasing holistic shit,
Speaker 2: like chasing wild stuff that other people can't afford.
Speaker 3: And I don't know what doctor.
Speaker 1: Who's being like and being like regular medicine doesn't apply
Speaker 1: to me, like regular rule, Like I'm above other people. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Like that's an interesting detail about her because that's not
Speaker 1: what I was imagining.
Speaker 3: That she was very loaded.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she was very loaded. She was a rich woman. Yeah,
Speaker 2: they were all well like all.
Speaker 3: Of these.
Speaker 2: I just think that, like, especially right now, there's such
Speaker 2: an emphasis on wellness, like we're such a wellness culture.
Speaker 2: But it's yeah, it's all a bunch of quacks. And
Speaker 2: like I used to really love this one fitness influencer,
Speaker 2: and now when I see clips of her podcasts, it's
Speaker 2: like every week it's this is toxic.
Speaker 3: That's toxic. The plastic you can't do And I'm like,
Speaker 3: what can you do?
Speaker 2: Yeah, like at a certain point, you are limiting your life,
Speaker 2: Like I don't know, it's wild.
Speaker 3: Yeah really, And it's sad. I'm sad for these kids.
Speaker 3: I'm sad for these kids.
Speaker 2: I mean, we always deal with kids and abuse and
Speaker 2: it's just fucking sad. We need to fight for more
Speaker 2: kids an autonomy.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, there needs to be checks and balances. Just
Speaker 1: because you have a child doesn't mean you get to
Speaker 1: just say what is science, like what is right and wrong?
Speaker 1: Like of course you have certain jurisdiction over your child,
Speaker 1: but like you can't. I don't know people that are
Speaker 1: just like, yeah, we just like I don't believe in medicine,
Speaker 1: so by you have to die now, Like I don't know,
Speaker 1: I can't handle that all right, And we do not
Speaker 1: have a guest today, so let's move right into our
Speaker 1: post mortem.
Speaker 3: I mean, this episode is so wild.
Speaker 1: I just like it truly reminds you that there is
Speaker 1: a denialism community for almost everything, Like there is probably
Speaker 1: a community that's like the flu is not real. The
Speaker 1: flu is like your body's energy, you know, just collapsing
Speaker 1: in on itself and you just need to like wear
Speaker 1: a crystal in your pocket.
Speaker 3: Like I don't know the fact that.
Speaker 1: There were people that just don't think AIDS is real,
Speaker 1: I should believe it because I know there's other wild
Speaker 1: denialism communities.
Speaker 2: Must come out of like arrogance, right, I don't know,
Speaker 2: Like I I just don't like people think they are Galileo,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean?
Speaker 3: Yea, Like they are.
Speaker 2: The ones that know about how the planets are moving, like,
Speaker 2: and that's that is what they are feeling. Because it's
Speaker 2: like you have all of these doctors, scientists, people that
Speaker 2: know what they're talking about are saying this thing and
Speaker 2: you say, no, it's it's not that, like that's arrogance.
Speaker 3: I don't know. Yeah, yeah, because I don't know.
Speaker 2: I just but I also B D Wong hosted that
Speaker 2: show Something Is Killing Me, where it's like something is
Speaker 2: killing someone and they keep going to doctors and no
Speaker 2: one is helping them. So it's like, I understand having
Speaker 2: like issues a doctor, yeah, but it's like a whole
Speaker 2: medical commun I don't know.
Speaker 3: I just but I don't want to trust the government either.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's all very complicated, but it's your your
Speaker 2: kid died, like the crime. It's like, at what point
Speaker 2: does your opinion and thought about something not as important
Speaker 2: like your kid's life should be more.
Speaker 3: Important, right, And I guess it's like you could. I mean,
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: It's like it's like you can google anything on the
Speaker 1: internet and find the answer that you want. So when
Speaker 1: people are like, oh, I've done my own research, I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't have the time to like
Speaker 1: fully get a medical degree in anything.
Speaker 3: So I trust a.
Speaker 1: Doctor if I think the doctor is being a little
Speaker 1: bit there's certainly. I've met doctors I don't like, and
Speaker 1: I'm kind of like, I don't think your opinion is like,
Speaker 1: so you go to someone else, like you you know,
Speaker 1: I would try various people, maybe check some message boards
Speaker 1: and see what people are saying, but like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: use your common sense.
Speaker 3: It's like your daughter is dying. I don't know. It's
Speaker 3: it's so.
Speaker 2: Well And this, obviously the denialism reminds me of like,
Speaker 2: you know, Trump cult. Yeah, I and like religion and stuff,
Speaker 2: but I just saw a video and it was amazing.
Speaker 2: They were like, hey, if you told someone you really
Speaker 2: really loved them, but if they did something wrong that
Speaker 2: you would burn them?
Speaker 3: Is that?
Speaker 2: And they're like, no, that's not real love. So they're like,
Speaker 2: so God in hell is bad, right? And the guy
Speaker 2: goes nope and like leaves. You know, if you've ever
Speaker 2: seen someone get questioned about God, there's like another clip
Speaker 2: that always shows up to me where he's like God,
Speaker 2: you know all about anti abortion stuff, and he goes,
Speaker 2: didn't God can all the first born sons?
Speaker 3: Wasn't that? Yeah?
Speaker 2: And the guy goes, I'm done talking now, and they
Speaker 2: like leave. It's like they I don't I don't know. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I just feel like I've had to change my mind
Speaker 2: and opinions often, and I've been wrong all the time, right, and.
Speaker 3: So I and it's tough.
Speaker 2: I am not saying it's like not tough to be like,
Speaker 2: oh fuck, I'm an idiot, or like I was wrong
Speaker 2: all this time, Like I get that, but I'm I'm
Speaker 2: happy I have the capacity because I would hate to
Speaker 2: be that embarrassing on the internet.
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I am the same.
Speaker 1: I'm always like, well, famously, I believed this for a
Speaker 1: really long time until I found out this, you know, like,
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm pretty open about changing my mind
Speaker 1: on stuff because the people that are just have had
Speaker 1: the same beliefs for so long and now they're so
Speaker 1: old that they're like, I can't even defend this. I
Speaker 1: just have to end the conversation. And so I feel
Speaker 1: arguing with my parents about stuff, they've just believed it
Speaker 1: for so long that they're like, I don't really want
Speaker 1: to argue with this with you about this, and it's like, okay,
Speaker 1: you know, you just can't. But you can't teach an
Speaker 1: old dog new tricks sometimes, And I'm glad. What I'm
Speaker 1: saying is I'm young. That's all I'm saying. I'm very young,
Speaker 1: and my my opinions are still pliable and malleable.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just like you're being proven wrong to your face.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know.
Speaker 3: I'm out. I'm out. And it's like, yeah, no, hell
Speaker 3: is crazy.
Speaker 2: You can't say God is all loving and forgiving and
Speaker 2: then have hell. Like yeah, I actually never even thought
Speaker 2: about that. Like that clip really appealed to me. I go, oh,
Speaker 2: that's a good one. I'm like, that is a good one.
Speaker 3: But I don't know, but I know.
Speaker 1: Is there their excuse, like, oh, but hell is where
Speaker 1: you go if you don't ask for the Lord's forgiveness
Speaker 1: and you don't ask for the Lord to like take
Speaker 1: you back like or whatever.
Speaker 3: Like is that what they would say. I don't know.
Speaker 2: They say lots of thing. I just belief systems are wild.
Speaker 2: I don't really know, like I am trying to. I
Speaker 2: just have never been a really religious person. No, it's
Speaker 2: hard for me to like, I don't know, I have
Speaker 2: no idea. But my dad is a synagogue now. But
Speaker 2: I think once you hit your eighties, you gotta you
Speaker 2: gotta make amends.
Speaker 3: Yeah, time is ticking, Dade, Time is a ticken.
Speaker 1: Speaking of doctors, Colin just sent me a text that said,
Speaker 1: the way Lisa is pronouncing giland Barr on your podcast,
Speaker 1: which is some disorder. You've pronounced Goulan bear, Gillian bear, Julian.
Speaker 1: He goes, it's really sending me yes, And I have
Speaker 1: no idea, I have no idea how you actually say it,
Speaker 1: but that this just in, This just in from my
Speaker 1: brother Colin.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but wait, it's medical. Oh Reagan fucking Agan fuck rage.
Speaker 3: Well, because that's what it all is.
Speaker 2: Like sixties and seventies were like free love, let's be
Speaker 2: fun and gay and awesome, and then eighties it was like,
Speaker 2: oh yeah, let's let these people fucking die. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: it's and I feel like we're in that time again
Speaker 2: where we're just went backwards where there was growth and
Speaker 2: now it's they just don't want it. Now we're getting
Speaker 2: the commandments and hung in schools. It's like it's wild
Speaker 2: to me.
Speaker 1: And the thing is is like, look at HIV and
Speaker 1: AIDS and how far we have come, Like it is
Speaker 1: not a death sentence anymore. Like medicine has actually prepped
Speaker 1: and people and prep and people are living long lives
Speaker 1: and it's not a death sentence anymore because of science
Speaker 1: and the opposite of AIDS denilism. So it's really I
Speaker 1: just I don't know what you even. It's you know,
Speaker 1: you can't talk to people that are like the sky's purple,
Speaker 1: so but.
Speaker 2: No, and you know what I do have to I'm sorry,
Speaker 2: but did you see Travis surprise Taylor and then Taylor
Speaker 2: getting excited when Travis flew to Dublin?
Speaker 1: Okay, sorry I didn't see it, but I hear she's cute.
Speaker 3: I heard she got stuck on a platform that that
Speaker 3: did happen too. I'm really proud of you a scroll.
Speaker 2: I saw there's been a lot of technical issues, and
Speaker 2: of course the Wild Swifties are like, that's a glitch
Speaker 2: and it's because of a reputation and it's coming out.
Speaker 3: And it's like, let this bitch just like finish her
Speaker 3: to hour in peace.
Speaker 1: But also they one of my mom friends.
Speaker 2: But it's her singing and he flew in mid concert
Speaker 2: and like you could just see them being really really cute.
Speaker 2: But he flew back to la for a friend's wedding
Speaker 2: and then back to Ireland. So honestly, it's fun being
Speaker 2: rich and in love.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's nice to watch.
Speaker 1: A mom. Friend just texted me and so there's a
Speaker 1: Tailor Swift cover band playing somewhere nearby and that we
Speaker 1: might look into going with the kids.
Speaker 3: You should.
Speaker 2: There's a Taylor Swift dance Parties sing along on my
Speaker 2: birthday in New York.
Speaker 1: Oh, I will be gone, but we'll we'll figure something out.
Speaker 2: I don't know if I'm gonna do it or not,
Speaker 2: but yeah, because I just I don't know. I also
Speaker 2: just want to wait till the concert, and really, yeah,
Speaker 2: go to the feeling. I don't think this singal on
Speaker 2: is going to really even pay. I mean, definitely go
Speaker 2: to the sing along first, because once you go to
Speaker 2: the concert, the sing along is not going to mean
Speaker 2: anything new.
Speaker 3: We're all trying to recreate it again and again. Who knows. Well,
Speaker 3: let's get into our what would Sister peg do?
Speaker 1: Our weekly segment where we direct you towards an organization, article, book,
Speaker 1: something that gives you info about what we talked about today.
Speaker 1: And we wanted to point you today to the Elizabeth
Speaker 1: Glazer Pediatric AIDS Foundation, where a friend of mine has
Speaker 1: worked four years. They are the leading global nonprofit organization
Speaker 1: dedicated to preventing pediatric HIV infection and eliminating pediatric AIDS
Speaker 1: through research, advocacy, and prevention and treatment programs. It was
Speaker 1: founded by Elizabeth Laser in nineteen eighty one, who contracted
Speaker 1: HIV through a blood transfusion and unknowingly passed it to
Speaker 1: her son through breastfeeding, so much like what happened in
Speaker 1: this episode, except she knowingly did it, unlike this woman.
Speaker 1: As a result of Glazer's hard work, her son is
Speaker 1: now a healthy adult. So for more info, head over
Speaker 1: to pedaids dot org. That's ped ai ds dot org
Speaker 1: and that will, as usual, be in a story the
Speaker 1: day our episode comes out on our Instagram and then
Speaker 1: we save it forever in our WWSPD highlight where you
Speaker 1: can see all the organizations we've ever mentioned. And yeah,
Speaker 1: follow us on the Instagram's babe, it's uh, that's messed
Speaker 1: up pod.
Speaker 2: And I'm so sorry to jump back into this, but
Speaker 2: Disney did eventually sue the company that did make The
Speaker 2: Jungle King and other such movies, of course, so but
Speaker 2: not before you got your hot little hands on it,
Speaker 2: you know, because I'm looking at the other ones and
Speaker 2: they're all like so, but the cease to exists, the
Speaker 2: license whatever. But I don't know how the lawsuit worked out,
Speaker 2: but Disney did sue, okay, And next week, you know,
Speaker 2: from AIDS to Jungle King to Next week we will
Speaker 2: be doing shadow from season eleven, episode twelve. And if
Speaker 2: you're someone that doesn't really watch the episodes, this one
Speaker 2: is cooky fun slash. There's there is no uh, there's murder,
Speaker 2: but there you know. It's a chiller one. It's a
Speaker 2: chiller one.
Speaker 1: It feels like watching a little mini movie. I think
Speaker 1: you guys gotta watch it. But we'll see you guys
Speaker 1: next week. Thank you so much for all your love
Speaker 1: and support, and have a great rest of your summer
Speaker 1: week and we'll see you next week.
Speaker 2: That's Messed Up as an exactly right production.
Speaker 1: If you have compliments you'd like to give us or
Speaker 1: episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email
Speaker 1: it That's messed uppod at gmail dot com. Follow the
Speaker 1: podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod and on
Speaker 1: Twitter at messed Up Pod, and follow us personally at
Speaker 1: Kara Klank and at glitter Cheese. As always, please see
Speaker 1: our show notes for sources and more information.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much to our senior producer Casey O'Brien
Speaker 2: and our associate producer Christina Chamberlain.
Speaker 1: And to our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker
Speaker 1: Patrick Cottner. And to Henrika Perski for our theme song
Speaker 1: and Carly Jean Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to
Speaker 1: our executive producers Georgia hard Start, Karen Kilgareff, Daniel Kramer
Speaker 1: and everybody at Exactly Right Media, Dun Dun