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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to another episode of the All Thoughts Podcast.

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Speaker 2: I'm Tracy Allaway.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Joe why Isenthal.

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Speaker 2: Joe, what do you know about Monopoly?

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Speaker 3: My daughter's really into Monopoly. She's really getting into it.

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Speaker 2: Do you play with her?

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Speaker 3: I do, And she's really into it, And I think

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Speaker 3: she's developing some good intuitions. I think she's about capitalism, yeah,

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Speaker 3: and I think she could be like a little bit conservative,

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Speaker 3: Like sometimes I think she should buy and she wants

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Speaker 3: to like hold on to her cash, and so she

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Speaker 3: like foregoes opportunities to get good properties. But I'm excited

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Speaker 3: she's taken to the game.

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Speaker 2: That's actually impressive impulse control for a little kid. But

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Speaker 2: I do think a monopoly that best strategy is just

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Speaker 2: buy everything you land on.

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Speaker 3: Pretty basically, Are we going to do an episode just

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Speaker 3: on an optimal monopoly strategy? Because I'd be done with that.

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Speaker 2: We should actually, Okay, let me rephrase this. What do

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Speaker 2: you know about Monopoly's history?

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Speaker 3: Well, what I've heard, and I don't know if this

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Speaker 3: is true, because it seems like it could be an

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Speaker 3: urban legend. I've heard that the game was like started

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Speaker 3: by some socialist or something like that who wanted to,

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Speaker 3: you know, create a game that would indict capitalism. Monopoly

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Speaker 3: is not considered to be a positive aspect of the

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Speaker 3: market system. We usually are against those and yet I

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Speaker 3: don't think many people take that lesson and became massively popular.

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Speaker 3: It's a massively successful business in its own right.

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Speaker 2: This is actually it's not an urban legend. It's true.

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Speaker 2: So monopoly. I was reading a book about this and

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Speaker 2: it's actually really fascinating. But Monopoly comes from the Landlord's Game,

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Speaker 2: which was created in nineteen o three by a woman

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Speaker 2: named Lizzie Maggie or Maggie, I'm not sure. And she

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Speaker 2: was actually a Quaker, so sort of you know, progressive ideals,

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Speaker 2: and it had almost the opposite ethos to the monopoly

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Speaker 2: we know today, and it was supposed to demonstrate that

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Speaker 2: an economy that rewards individuals is better than one where

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Speaker 2: monopolies hold all the wealth. And there was also a

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Speaker 2: version of taxation in the game that was kind of progressive.

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Speaker 2: But then a company called Parker Brothers basically published a

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Speaker 2: version of it in nineteen thirty five without the taxation aspect,

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Speaker 2: and then Hasbro bought it in the nineteen nineties, and

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Speaker 2: then that's when we started getting the sort of modern

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Speaker 2: version of Monopoly that we all know today. And I

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Speaker 2: have to say I was also looking at all the

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Speaker 2: various versions of Monopoly that have been published over time.

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Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure when I was a kid, I had

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Speaker 2: the Star Wars version. But if you look at an

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Speaker 2: actual list of all the different monopolies that have come

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Speaker 2: out over the years, it's amazing. So first of all,

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Speaker 2: there's unlicensed versions like Alpakaopoly with our pakas, but there's

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Speaker 2: also a Best Buy version which was licensed and it

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Speaker 2: looks kind of amazing. I want to play it. It

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Speaker 2: had little store departments instead of property used to buy.

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Speaker 2: There's a David Bowie addition. I don't know if that

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Speaker 2: interests you.

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Speaker 3: So two things. One other thing I say about sometimes

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Speaker 3: I've taken the kids to Atlantic City, so my kids know,

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Speaker 3: like they've seen you know, they're like, oh, that's actually

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Speaker 3: park place, that's actually boardwalk, since I know all the

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Speaker 3: properties are streets in Atlantic City. But also they should

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Speaker 3: have a version of Monopoly with a land value text.

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Speaker 2: And so you get penalized for failing to get it

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Speaker 2: back to its roots.

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Speaker 3: Also, I think they should have a version where the

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Speaker 3: more you build, the more rents go down.

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Speaker 4: It's a theory.

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Speaker 3: If there are more hotels and houses everywhere, then they

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Speaker 3: should put it depressing anyway.

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Speaker 2: Okay, all right, what I was building up to is

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Speaker 2: that there is also a new version of Monopoly. It

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Speaker 2: is an app, an app version of the game that

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Speaker 2: you can play on your phone or wherever, and it

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Speaker 2: has become so popular that it's grossed more than three

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Speaker 2: billion dollars in revenue since launching in April of last year.

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Speaker 2: That's according to Hasbro's latest earnings. And beyond that, it

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Speaker 2: is so popular that Joe, can you guess what comes next? No,

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Speaker 2: it's so popular that Hasbro is launching a board game

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Speaker 2: version of Monopoly. Goes so, a board game version of

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Speaker 2: the app version of the board game.

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Speaker 3: I love that. That's so great. Yes, that's great.

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Speaker 2: Okay, we've come full circle. Anyway. The reason we were

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Speaker 2: talking about Monopoly is because today we do, in fact

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Speaker 2: have the perfect guest. We are going to be speaking

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Speaker 2: to Chris Cox, the CEO of Hasbro, and we're going

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Speaker 2: to be talking to him about the development of Monopoly

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Speaker 2: over the years, but also all of their other games,

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Speaker 2: including Magic the Gathering, Joe, you remember we did that

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Speaker 2: episode with Richard Garfield and all the other sort of

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Speaker 2: digital things they have in the works right now, and

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Speaker 2: just get to handle on what a traditional toymaker is

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Speaker 2: actually doing in games. So I'm very excited. Yeah, Chris,

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Speaker 2: thank you so much for coming on all.

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Speaker 4: Thoughts, Gracie, Joe, thanks so much for having me and

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Speaker 4: for being huge Monopoly fans.

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Speaker 3: You're welcome, You're welcome.

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Speaker 2: I got to say, I am very interested in the

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Speaker 2: Grateful Dead Opoly, where you go on tour with the

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Speaker 2: Dead presumably forever, and you travel from gig to gig

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Speaker 2: trying to get rich by purchasing album recordings. That sounds fun. Okay, okay, Chris,

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Speaker 2: you have a gaming background. I think you were at

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Speaker 2: Wizards of the Coast, Is that right?

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Speaker 4: Yep. I've been in the games industry since nineteen ninety nine,

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Speaker 4: or in and out of it. I started at Microsoft

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Speaker 4: in their PC games division, and after about three or

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Speaker 4: four months there, I was transferred into a secret project

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Speaker 4: code named Xbox, and then ever since then, I've been

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Speaker 4: in and out of games, working on video games, physical games,

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Speaker 4: games for kids, games for adults. And most recently at

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Speaker 4: Wizards of the Coast, which I helmed prior to becoming

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Speaker 4: CEO of Hasbro about two years ago.

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Speaker 3: Are you a game lover?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 3: I mean, maybe it's obvious, but, like, you know, if

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Speaker 3: you find someone who has had a twenty plus year

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Speaker 3: in gaming, is there a pretty good chance that they themselves,

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Speaker 3: as part of their hobbies and identities, are just really

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Speaker 3: into games.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. I would challenge you to find a game that

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Speaker 4: I wouldn't enjoy playing. I'm a gaming omnivore. I've been

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Speaker 4: playing games since. Probably the earliest game I can remember

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Speaker 4: playing is Candyland, which also is a Hasburg game. I

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Speaker 4: think I remember playing that when I was four with

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Speaker 4: my mom, and I've been playing some version of Wizards

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Speaker 4: of the Coast game since I was ten years old.

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Speaker 4: I started playing Dungeons and Dragons at my best friend

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Speaker 4: Hans Schroeder's house in Cincinnati, Ohio. I remember seeing like

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Speaker 4: these little metal figurines in his older brother's room that

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Speaker 4: were wizards and dragons that had these like cool jewels

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Speaker 4: built into them, and I was like, Hey, what's that.

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Speaker 4: Then they showed me a twenty sided dice and I

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Speaker 4: was absolutely hooked. Started playing Magic when I was in college.

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Speaker 4: All of our Avalon Hills strategy games I geeked out too,

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Speaker 4: and I have a pretty rich collection of very old

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Speaker 4: PC games dating back to my first like EPSOM twenty

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Speaker 4: six hundred from like the early nineteen eighties and my

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Speaker 4: original Mac one twenty eight bit PC.

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Speaker 2: So Hasbro just released Earnings, and a lot of the discussion,

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Speaker 2: a lot of the questions from analysts was all about

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Speaker 2: the gaming strategy. Talk to us about what the opportunity

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Speaker 2: in games actually is for Hasbro. Why does this seem

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Speaker 2: to be an area of focus for you right now?

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Speaker 4: Well, I think it's a couple of different things. First off,

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Speaker 4: it's a very large business either both physical games as

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Speaker 4: well as digital games. So inside of physical games, we

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Speaker 4: invented the role playing game, We invented the trading card game, Magic,

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Speaker 4: the Gathering. We were one of the earliest pioneers on

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Speaker 4: mass produced board games. Milton Bradley started his eponymous board

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Speaker 4: game company back in the late or the early eighteen sixties,

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Speaker 4: right around the Lincoln inauguration. The Parker Brothers started their

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Speaker 4: game company back I think in like the eighteen nineties,

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Speaker 4: and so we've been a part of games basically as

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Speaker 4: far back as you can really track them. So they're

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Speaker 4: a huge part of our culture, they're a huge part

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Speaker 4: of our business, they're a huge part of the identity

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Speaker 4: of the company. And basically everyone plays games. It's a

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Speaker 4: massive market. You know, if you go across the US,

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Speaker 4: a Hasbro game is in better than nine out of

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Speaker 4: ten households across the US. Games like Monopoly, Clue, Candyland,

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Speaker 4: they basically have ubiquity in terms of brand awareness. And

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Speaker 4: you know, as many people as play physical games, a

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Speaker 4: number of people who played digital games Dwarfs even that,

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Speaker 4: you know, take Wizards of the Coast, Wizards of the Coast.

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Speaker 4: Game games are mag at the gathering in D and

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Speaker 4: D and they're primarily sold through you know, around eight

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Speaker 4: to ten thousand mom and pop style hobby stores around

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Speaker 4: the world. About seventy million people play those kinds of

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Speaker 4: games and shop at those kinds of stores. They primarily

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Speaker 4: sell strategy games, trading card games, role playing games, and

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Speaker 4: kind of like crunchier board games. The number of people

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Speaker 4: who play those types of games on their PC, phone

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Speaker 4: or a console is ten to twelve XA around the world.

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Speaker 4: It's like seven hundred million to eight hundred million play

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Speaker 4: those kinds of games, So I mean that's a pretty

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Speaker 4: healthy hunk of the world's population. It's growing. The games

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Speaker 4: industry has been growing at kind of call it a

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Speaker 4: five to eight percent clip for basically as long as

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Speaker 4: tracking goes back, go back to the nineties, and it

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Speaker 4: just continues to expand in terms of the number of

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Speaker 4: people who play games, where they play games, how they

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Speaker 4: play games, and the technological innovation that fuels it. So

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Speaker 4: Pasbro's all in and I'm a big advocate for it

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Speaker 4: as well.

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Speaker 3: So Tracy mentioned Monopoly Go, the mobile game and three

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Speaker 3: billion in revenue since it's launched in twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 3: First of all, like, I haven't played it. What is

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Speaker 3: the game Monopoly Go? Because I take it it's distinct.

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Speaker 3: But then like, what is the business model of Monopoly Go?

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Speaker 3: How does it make money?

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Speaker 4: Well? I think how it engages people and the business

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Speaker 4: model go hand in hand. Yeah, And Monopoly Go effectively

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Speaker 4: takes the essence of the board game, the essence of

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Speaker 4: the fun of the board game, which is deal making

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Speaker 4: and lighthearted, stabbing your friends in the back, yes, and

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Speaker 4: gamifies it on a phone. You basically go around boards,

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Speaker 4: around the world collecting properties, you collect cash, you collect,

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Speaker 4: fun digital items, you collect kind of power ups and dice,

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Speaker 4: and then you're able to raid your friends and kind

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Speaker 4: of like through a series of minigames, either you know,

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Speaker 4: set them back a little bit, challenge them to some

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Speaker 4: fun kind of minigames or adventures, and it creates that

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Speaker 4: kind of dynamic that you see around the board when

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Speaker 4: you're playing with your family or with your friends, where

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Speaker 4: someone's trying to slip one hundred from out of the bank,

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Speaker 4: or someone's trying to slip park Place out of the

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Speaker 4: slots and the board even though it hasn't been built,

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Speaker 4: or they're pushing like a little extra house onto a

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Speaker 4: row of three houses and hoping that you don't notice.

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Speaker 4: And it's that kind of fun kind of mischief that

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Speaker 4: I think makes the game great to play in person,

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Speaker 4: and that scope ly our partner who's made the game

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Speaker 4: has done a fantastic job capturing the essence of and

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Speaker 4: I think it's what really has driven the popularity of it.

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Speaker 4: The business model just kind of carries on that fun.

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Speaker 4: The more that you play, the more friends that you

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Speaker 4: connect and can play with and kind of create that fun,

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Speaker 4: loving mischief with the more fun the game is, the

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Speaker 4: more engaging the game is, and just the more opportunities

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Speaker 4: there are for you to extend the play. And really

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Speaker 4: the kind of the way that the game makes money

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Speaker 4: is this concept of earning dice and buying extra dice

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Speaker 4: because the dice give you the ability to make extra

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Speaker 4: moves and extra turns. You don't have to pay a

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Speaker 4: cent to play the game, and you can have a

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Speaker 4: lot of fun playing the game for free. But if

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Speaker 4: you feel a little bit of an extra challenge, or

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Speaker 4: you want to get a couple steps ahead of your

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Speaker 4: friend who lives across the country, or you want to

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Speaker 4: be the first to be able to raid the board

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Speaker 4: in Sydney out of your friend group, you might be

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Speaker 4: incentivized to pay a dollar or two to get some

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Speaker 4: extra dice and just get the jump on your quote

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Speaker 4: unquote competition.

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Speaker 2: Wow, it sounds like capitalism on steroids. Like say what

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Speaker 2: you will about the original monopoly, but it respected property rights.

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Speaker 2: You couldn't like steal property. Is there anything surprising that

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Speaker 2: you've learned from the Monopoly Go experience. I was reading

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Speaker 2: through the earnings transcript, for instance, and there was a

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Speaker 2: lot of discussion about seasonality and you weren't quite sure

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Speaker 2: what the seasonality was with something like Monopoly Go. Talk

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Speaker 2: to us about how that sort of business aspect of

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Speaker 2: it all is unfolding.

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Speaker 4: Well, Monopoly Goo is the most successful mobile game outside

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Speaker 4: of China in history, So it's really an unprecedented scale

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Speaker 4: of game and scale of building its engagement and building

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Speaker 4: its audience. So when you have an end of one,

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Speaker 4: there aren't a lot of other games that you can

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Speaker 4: go compare against and say, oh, it's going to behave

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Speaker 4: like X, or it's going to behave like Why. There's

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Speaker 4: some games that are closed on go, you know, Candy Crush,

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Speaker 4: Clash of Clans, these kind of more casual to mid

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Speaker 4: core games that have a very compelling social engagement loop

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Speaker 4: associated with them, and several of those, particularly some of

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Speaker 4: the more casual versions of those, like some of the

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Speaker 4: Match three games like a Candy Crush, do exhibit a

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Speaker 4: degree of seasonality. POKEMONO, particularly in its early days, certainly did,

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Speaker 4: particularly when it was all about going outside and kind

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Speaker 4: of experiencing locales. It was a little bit more weather

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Speaker 4: based back then, so there is a degree of that,

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Speaker 4: But you know, we're kind of learning as we go

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Speaker 4: and we're learning with scope ly as we go. The

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Speaker 4: good news there is scope Lee's arguably one of the

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Speaker 4: biggest and best mobile games publishers in the world. They

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Speaker 4: have a lot of experience with a lot of other

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Speaker 4: games that are similar in audience type and engagement loops

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Speaker 4: as a game like Monopoly Go, so we're able to

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Speaker 4: leverage those. But you know, a game like Scrabble with

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Speaker 4: Buddies or Yatzie with Buddies. There's still successful games, but

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Speaker 4: they're ten x smaller than Monopoly Go. So just given

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Speaker 4: that scale in size and audience reach, there's gonna be

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Speaker 4: nuances that you're gonna discover for the first time simply

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Speaker 4: by being a pioneer.

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Speaker 3: There is this phenomenon that people in the mobile gaming

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Speaker 3: industry you talk about. I think they call it like

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Speaker 3: the sharkfin effect, which is like a game will get

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Speaker 3: really popular and then it'll fade very fast. And I

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Speaker 3: think there was that. You know, Flappy Birds was one,

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Speaker 3: and I remember like people like played that like crazy

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Speaker 3: for a little while and then it like disappeared. I

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Speaker 3: got into this game, Elto's Adventure. I heard people talk

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Speaker 3: about that. I forgot about it. There are a few

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Speaker 3: others this seems to be a recurring thing. Can you

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Speaker 3: describe why that happens? Why you see certain games exploded

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Speaker 3: popularity and then a year later they go like what

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Speaker 3: is the sort of impulse that that happens? And then like,

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Speaker 3: how do you think about avoiding that risk? So that okay,

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Speaker 3: this everyone's playing Monopoly, go and then next year they're

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Speaker 3: moving on to something else.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, this is probably a better question for the team

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Speaker 4: at scopely since they're the experts. But I'll give you

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Speaker 4: my two cents. So a lot of games have a

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Speaker 4: very fun kind of initial loop and they're very engaging

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Speaker 4: for a call it a half hour, an hour and

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Speaker 4: maybe aswards of ten to twenty hours, so you know,

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Speaker 4: they kind of almost operate, particularly in the mobile space.

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Speaker 4: Is the equivalent of like a fidget spinner. It's something

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Speaker 4: to kind of keep your fingers busy. It helps to

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Speaker 4: occupy the time while you're on the subway or just

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Speaker 4: in a waiting room.

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Speaker 3: I got really Game eight for that reason. Actually is

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Speaker 3: another one anyway, Sorry, keep going.

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Speaker 4: But at the end of the day, they don't really

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Speaker 4: change up the game dynamic that much, or they don't

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Speaker 4: really drive kind of like additional loops that engage you

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Speaker 4: in new or different ways or different challenges. So a

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Speaker 4: lot of the games that have that quote unquote shark

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Speaker 4: thin effect, something that's really fun and really compelling, and

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Speaker 4: they keep people for call it three days or seven days.

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Speaker 4: But then they tend to tail off, you know. The

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Speaker 4: games that tend to be enduring, that tend to do

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Speaker 4: very very well. They tend to be games that they

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Speaker 4: have not just an initial loop, but they have multiple

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Speaker 4: loops and multiple layers the deeper you get into Itnopoly

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Speaker 4: Go is an example of that. Other games that have

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Speaker 4: been super successful of that are games like Clash of

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Speaker 4: Clans or Candy Crush Saga. And what they tend to

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Speaker 4: do is the complexity of the game builds over time.

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Speaker 4: The amount of things that you can do, the amount

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Speaker 4: of minigames that you can do, gets bigger and bigger,

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Speaker 4: but at a manageable pace. And they add in a

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Speaker 4: social component to it so that it's not just you

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Speaker 4: playing the game, but you feel like you're playing the

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Speaker 4: game with a large circle of your friends and associates,

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Speaker 4: which also makes it even more fun because the challenges

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Speaker 4: just aren't you as a single play the challenges are

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Speaker 4: with you as a group of people, and so obviously

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Speaker 4: it's more fun to play with multiple people and creating

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Speaker 4: social dynamics and kind of raiding each other or ribbing

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Speaker 4: each other or having like some fun loving mischief with

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Speaker 4: each other. That makes the game endure. So the games

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Speaker 4: that like do achieve hyper scale, like a monopoly go,

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Speaker 4: they tend to maintain that hyper scale for a very

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Speaker 4: long time. If you go back and look at just

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Speaker 4: in the US, the top twenty games in the US today,

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Speaker 4: half of them have been in the market for over

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Speaker 4: five years, and several of them have been in the

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Speaker 4: market for you know, upwards of eight to ten years.

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Speaker 4: And you know, sure they have a big year one,

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Speaker 4: they have a big year two, and then they start

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Speaker 4: to taper a bit after that, but they maintain at

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Speaker 4: a very very healthy rate.

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Speaker 2: So this might sound like a weird question, but how

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Speaker 2: do you know when a game is a hit? And

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Speaker 2: how do you sort of judge the success of a game.

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Speaker 2: Is it purely by the amount of dollars that it

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Speaker 2: brings in, or is it virality or bringing people into

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Speaker 2: like the Hasbro network. How do you judge success here?

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Speaker 4: Well, I think it depends on the game. So when

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Speaker 4: you're looking at a mobile game or what we call

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Speaker 4: games as a service, which usually are games that are

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Speaker 4: either free to acquire upfront or cost very little upfront,

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Speaker 4: but you tend to make money off of based off

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Speaker 4: of how frequently and long people play because there's just

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Speaker 4: engagement loops that engage them and give them opportunities to

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Speaker 4: power things up or customize the game. You tend to

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Speaker 4: look at the retention rates on those games, and so

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Speaker 4: usually you look at a D one, a D three,

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Speaker 4: a D seven, and a D thirty retention rate on

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Speaker 4: those games, and you're going to want to see games.

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Speaker 4: It will vary based off of the genre, but you're

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Speaker 4: typically going to want to see a D one retention

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Speaker 4: rate access of forty percent, ideally in excess to fifty percent.

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Speaker 4: You're going to want to see a D seven retention

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Speaker 4: rate meaning how many people who started a week ago

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Speaker 4: are still playing after seven days in excess of call

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Speaker 4: it twenty to thirty percent, and then you're going to

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Speaker 4: ideally want to see a D thirty retention rate in

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Speaker 4: the ten to fifteen percent range. If you have a

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Speaker 4: game that's retaining users like that and engaging players at

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Speaker 4: a pretty snappy clip, you probably have the makings of

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Speaker 4: a really, really good and long lasting business. So an

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Speaker 4: example of a game that Hasbro does that has retention

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Speaker 4: rates like that would be mag at the Gathering Arena.

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Speaker 4: It's a free version of our most popular brand, Match

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Speaker 4: at the Gathering, which is a billion dollar plus trading

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Speaker 4: card game. It actually invented the trading card genre, and

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Speaker 4: it has retention rates that are astronomical. They're at the

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Speaker 4: high end of all those balns that I talked about,

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Speaker 4: And you know, we actually measured loyalty and a game

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Speaker 4: like Arena in months and years as opposed to days.

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Speaker 4: Like many mobile games like a Flappy Bird for instance,

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Speaker 4: as good as it is, that tends to have a

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Speaker 4: high churn rate. And so generally speaking, the longer you're

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Speaker 4: able to engage people and the more fun they're going

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Speaker 4: to have, the more opportunities you have to be able

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Speaker 4: to make a fair profit off of the game. And

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Speaker 4: then there's premium games, which have kind of a different model.

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Speaker 4: A premium game is kind of what we all might

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Speaker 4: remember from, you know, when we were kids buying games

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Speaker 4: for a Nintendo or buying games for a PlayStation or

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Speaker 4: an Xbox. You pay fifty dollars sixty dollars sometimes upwards

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Speaker 4: of seventy dollars up front. You typically get almost all

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Speaker 4: the value from that initial purchase. Maybe you sell downloadable content,

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Speaker 4: maybe there's a subscription that you can join, but most

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Speaker 4: typically you get the value up front. And what you

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Speaker 4: try to do there is you try to give a

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Speaker 4: very high end kind of blockbuster entertainment experience in exchange

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Speaker 4: for that high upfront cost. And you know, ideally you

401
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Speaker 4: want to maintain people for the twenty to one hundred

402
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Speaker 4: hours of gameplay, but it's not as important. What's important

403
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Speaker 4: is that they have a really fun first five to

404
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Speaker 4: ten hours and feel satisfied by the game, whereas in mobile,

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Speaker 4: really the first five to ten hours is just the

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Speaker 4: beginning of the engagement loop. You want to see players

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Speaker 4: hang around for ideally weeks, if not months and years

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Speaker 4: and really kind of make it a part of their

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Speaker 4: daily routine.

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Speaker 3: So Tracy mentioned in the beginning that the surreality of

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Speaker 3: the fact that there's now a physical version of the

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Speaker 3: mobile game, of the physical version of Monopoly, obviously it's tweaked.

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Speaker 3: You know, something that people talk about in culture generally,

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Speaker 3: and I often wonder if it's sort of wish casting

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Speaker 3: and not really a real thing. It's like, oh, people

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Speaker 3: wanting to like return to the analog, and there are

417
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Speaker 3: always people like oh, I think people are going to

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Speaker 3: want to read physical papers and nice heavy stock physical

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Speaker 3: magazines and maybe be on their phones a little bit less.

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Speaker 3: And again I always wonder if it's wishful thinking. But

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Speaker 3: in the game realm specifically, is this a real phenomenon

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Speaker 3: where you see people wanting to have that sort of tactile,

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Speaker 3: physical experience that they previously had on games, or is

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Speaker 3: this just a distinct opportunity specifically associated with the success

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Speaker 3: of Monopoly Go.

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Speaker 4: I think it's very real phenomena, and I think it's

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Speaker 4: been what's powering the physical games portfolio for US and

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Speaker 4: other companies for the last decade plus, and I think

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Speaker 4: it's going to power it for the certainly the foreseeable future.

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Speaker 4: People hunger for authentic connection, and a game gives people

431
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Speaker 4: kind of an easy rule book for creating authentic connection.

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Speaker 4: It's an easy way for families to get together and

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Speaker 4: spend some quality time at a table, phones down and

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Speaker 4: people engaged on the totem that is the game. It's

435
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,639
Speaker 4: a great way to find an excuse to get together

436
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 4: with friends on a regular basis to go through an

437
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:18,480
Speaker 4: adventure together like we do with Dungeons and Dragons. It's

438
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 4: a fantastic way for you know, people who are new

439
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 4: to a city and want to plug in with people

440
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,399
Speaker 4: who have shared interests, like we see with Magic the

441
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 4: Gathering and the network of stores that we call the

442
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:36,119
Speaker 4: Wizard's Play Network who put on over a million play

443
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 4: events per year across those stores, that people can come

444
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,919
Speaker 4: in and find a friend who loves the game and

445
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 4: has a similar passion to them. And you know, I

446
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 4: don't see that ebbing, if anything, I see that hunger

447
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:55,160
Speaker 4: for physical connection and that desire to kind of create

448
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 4: a shared story through the adventure that a game provides.

449
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 4: As only growing it to be more and more important

450
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 4: to people as we digitize more and more.

451
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,360
Speaker 2: Since you brought up Magic the Gathering, one thing I've

452
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:10,359
Speaker 2: been wondering is how do you balance the sort of

453
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 2: original attraction of the game with the expansion and the

454
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,360
Speaker 2: need to you know, basically roll out new products and

455
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 2: get people buying new cards. And one of the things

456
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 2: I've been thinking about, you know, call me a Magic

457
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,159
Speaker 2: the Gathering purist, but you've been doing a lot of

458
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 2: collaborations with TV shows, and I think you just announced

459
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 2: something with the Marvel universe, and I personally find some

460
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 2: of these tie ins kind of weird. Like I can't

461
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 2: imagine playing cards and being like I attack with Rick

462
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,919
Speaker 2: from The Walking Dead and then I block with iron

463
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 2: Man or something like that.

464
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:51,680
Speaker 3: How do you.

465
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 2: Balance the originality of the experience or the initial attraction

466
00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:00,719
Speaker 2: to the game with some of this like new licensing

467
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:01,880
Speaker 2: driven growth.

468
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 4: I think what's great about this podcast, Tracy, is what

469
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,919
Speaker 4: you find weird. I find amazing. You know, as a player,

470
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 4: you know, hey, sign me up for Rick battling iron

471
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 4: Man set against a bunch of space marines from Warhammer

472
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 4: forty K. That sounds like a really fun gaming time

473
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 4: to me. And I think that's the magic of what

474
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 4: we've been doing with Magic for the last five years.

475
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 4: We don't want to just be trapped in amber. We

476
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 4: don't want the game to just be the same thing

477
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 4: that it's been for the last thirty years. We want

478
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:40,679
Speaker 4: it to change and we want it to evolve, but

479
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 4: we also want it to be fully backwards compatible and

480
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 4: continuously offering flavors that bring in more and more people

481
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,679
Speaker 4: to the table and just make the community richer and

482
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 4: more vibrant. Now you know. The downside to it is

483
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 4: there are some people who are traditionalists. There are some

484
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 4: people who are completionists, and they don't necessarily like the changes,

485
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:12,119
Speaker 4: but that tends to be the significant minority. There's way, way,

486
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:16,159
Speaker 4: way more people who want to weigh into what, in

487
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 4: my opinion, is one of the best games ever invented

488
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 4: to play with ips that they love, with cards that

489
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 4: are instantly familiar to them, and we found what we

490
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,719
Speaker 4: call Universes Beyond, which are these tie ins we do

491
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:34,959
Speaker 4: with other brands to be by far the most successful

492
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:38,959
Speaker 4: new player introduction that we've ever done in physical cards.

493
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 3: Well, say, can you explain that last part further? What's

494
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 3: the new move that has been so successful.

495
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 4: It's called the Universes Beyond, which is our invitation of

496
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 4: other brands to come into our play platform and be

497
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,959
Speaker 4: able to experience the magic of magic. It's not an

498
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:01,199
Speaker 4: original strategy. It's actually a very time test strategy. You know,

499
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 4: you look at games like Fortnite, they do constant seasons

500
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 4: with outside ip that really spices up the game and

501
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 4: invites new people in. Lego has been doing it for forever,

502
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 4: you know, they started with Star Wars and have expanded

503
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 4: to you know, they do Transformers now, they do Pepa Pig, now,

504
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,679
Speaker 4: they do D and D now. It just makes the

505
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 4: play system a richer playground for people to be able

506
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 4: to experience. Now, we still have all the traditional elves

507
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 4: and dragons and heroes and lore from Magic, and we

508
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,880
Speaker 4: always have sets for those, and we always make sure

509
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 4: all the cards inside of Magic, and I think at

510
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 4: this point we're getting close to between twenty to twenty

511
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 4: five thousand unique cards that exist in the Magic Universe.

512
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 4: All of those cards are fully compatible with each other.

513
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 4: You can buy a pack of cards from nineteen ninety three,

514
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 4: and I wouldn't recommend cracking them open because they're very

515
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 4: valuable if you buy them, But you could and you

516
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 4: could play with the pack of cards that you bought

517
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,719
Speaker 4: in twenty twenty three and they would be fully compatible

518
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,239
Speaker 4: with each other. And you know, I think enriching that

519
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 4: play system with a lot of fantastic brands that have

520
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 4: very vibrant fan communities just makes Magic more magical to play. Joe.

521
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 2: After we recorded that episode with Richard Garfield, I went

522
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 2: off to look to see if I could find my

523
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 2: old Magic the gathering cards. These would have been from

524
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 2: like nineteen ninety four, ninety five, and I can't find

525
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 2: them anywhere. And I'm so sad because not only do

526
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 2: I think they are worth like a decent amount of

527
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 2: money nowadays, but I would actually like to see them again.

528
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 2: And I have this vision in my mind of exactly

529
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 2: where they are. They were in an after eight mint container. Oh,

530
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 2: and I recall seeing it somewhere like in the past

531
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 2: twenty years. But I'll find it.

532
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 4: You'll find it.

533
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 3: I know I have old baseball cards and a record

534
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 3: collection somewhere, and I have no idea where there's. You know,

535
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 3: something I'm interested in speaking of, like culture, is the

536
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,719
Speaker 3: sort of like intergenerational cultural transmission. And you know, when

537
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 3: I was a kid, I listened to the same music

538
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 3: as my parents because they would put on music and

539
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 3: I was in the room, and so that's what I

540
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 3: heard and that's what I got into. And to some extent,

541
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 3: that doesn't happen the same way with music anymore, because

542
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 3: my kids might be on headphones or I might be

543
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 3: on headphones. So when I'm listening to music, it's not

544
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 3: just sort of blasting throughout the living room or wherever

545
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 3: it is you know, when you think about like these

546
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 3: like games like these like backwards compatible games like you know,

547
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 3: like Magic and so forth, I'm curious, like how you

548
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 3: see that playing out in the game space. Games getting

549
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 3: passed on. Parents play with their kids. Obviously I played

550
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 3: Monopoly with my daughter. I think we also play like

551
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 3: and ladders and stuff like that. But then there is

552
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 3: this element that they have all the avenues of finding games,

553
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 3: whether it's online or on a phone, that are not

554
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 3: you know, something I would have played. And I'm sort

555
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 3: of curious about the phenomenon of like passing down games

556
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 3: and how you think about the durability of brands in

557
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 3: this aspect.

558
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 4: I think it's the primary way people learn about a

559
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 4: new game is through their parents playing around family board

560
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 4: game night, you know, whether that's a Friday or Thursday

561
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 4: or pick your boys and experiencing the joy and you know,

562
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 4: passing on like a treasured memory from your childhood to

563
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 4: your kids. I know my son loves D and D.

564
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 4: He loves Magic. He got that from me. The favorite

565
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 4: game our family plays is Monopoly. You know, we try

566
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 4: playing well, we play it less because my wife dislikes

567
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 4: how much we cheat. But the kids in chip ceo.

568
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 3: Wait do you it's admitting that cheer? Wait do you

569
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 3: play that? If you land on free parking you get

570
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 3: cash in the middle or like, where do you stand on?

571
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 4: That is often unnecessary for my kids and I because

572
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 4: we seem to always have a magical font of cash.

573
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 4: Our favorite version is the cheaters edition. We actually came

574
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 4: out with a version of Monopoly which was focused on

575
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 4: things that you needed to cheat on, tasks you needed

576
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 4: to do, and basically, like we know, the game of

577
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 4: Monopoly is done at our house when my wife flips

578
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 4: the board, usually around turn four or five. Game. But

579
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 4: it's fun. And you know, my kids love Monopoly. Now

580
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 4: my son loves magic and D and D. And you

581
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 4: do it with video games as well. Like to me,

582
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 4: games are such powerful ip you know, they might not

583
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 4: create like these cultural moments that a big Hollywood movie does, right,

584
00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 4: but they create millions upon millions of very powerful personal moments.

585
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 4: And that's why brands like Monopoly can translate so well

586
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,959
Speaker 4: from a board game to a multi billion dollar mobile

587
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 4: game back to a board game again, because people have

588
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 4: such intimate experience with them that has this deep personal

589
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 4: connection usually resulting from you know, a very fond memory

590
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 4: of siblings against siblings, friends with friends or parents and

591
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 4: kids circling around a table.

592
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 3: You mentioned cultural moment. You know, I'm curious. Like last year,

593
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 3: I guess, uh, Mattel had that huge hit with the

594
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 3: Barbie movie. I know you have all this ip. Are

595
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,719
Speaker 3: you doing anything similar in terms of sort of like

596
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 3: big like adult oriented movies around some of the brands

597
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 3: that you have within the broader Hasbro world?

598
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 4: Oh? Yeah, for sure. I think it last count Transformers

599
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 4: as a five billion dollar plus box office franchise. I

600
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 4: think it's in the top ten box office franchises of

601
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 4: all time. We have a new movie coming out in

602
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 4: September called Transformers One. It's the origin story of Optimus

603
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 4: Prime and Megatron back when they were friends as young

604
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 4: cogless robots on Cybertron and how the clash between them

605
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 4: and the Autobots and Decepticons emerged. Directed by Josh Cooley,

606
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:24,959
Speaker 4: who I think did Toy Story three or Toy Story four.

607
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 4: And it's been getting really good feedback from things like

608
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 4: San Diego Comic Con. Fans are excited for it, and

609
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 4: we hope families will enjoy it too. And then we

610
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 4: have at last count I think we have thirty five

611
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 4: entertainment projects in development. You know, you brought up the

612
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 4: Barbie movie. Barbie herself is the executive producer of our

613
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 4: Monopoly movie with Lionsgate. We have a Clue movie.

614
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:53,240
Speaker 3: And executive producer, yeah.

615
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 4: Margot Robbie's Lucky count.

616
00:34:58,520 --> 00:34:58,919
Speaker 2: The Doll.

617
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:03,439
Speaker 4: Okay, we did release a version of Barbie Monopoly last

618
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 4: year and it was one of the most successful Monopoly

619
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 4: versions from last year. So there's a lot of tie ins.

620
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 4: So yeah, I mean we have a ton of content

621
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 4: coming out. You know, Transformers is probably the movie that

622
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 4: the toy industry kind of holds up as like great

623
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:25,799
Speaker 4: synergies between selling product and creating a great story. You know,

624
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 4: last year with Transformers Rise of the Beast, we had

625
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 4: a ninety percent uplift in point of sale over like

626
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:35,799
Speaker 4: the twelve weeks of the movie, and I think we

627
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 4: did something like thirty or forty percent pos point of

628
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 4: sale uplift during the whole year from that movie. So,

629
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 4: you know, Transformers movies aren't just fun. They sell a

630
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 4: lot of toys.

631
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 3: By the way, Tracy, I see has Bro has the

632
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,879
Speaker 3: ipated Gem, which I think could be a huge hit.

633
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 2: Wait, is this the old the old one from the

634
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty Yeah.

635
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, people will love a gym movie. Yeah. So

636
00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 3: I'm just saying I'm giving a free idea here.

637
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,800
Speaker 2: Think there was a contempt I wanted to talk about AI,

638
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,239
Speaker 2: and there's sort of two different paths we could go

639
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:11,279
Speaker 2: down here, because number one, I know you're experimenting with

640
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 2: some AI based products, so like an AI driven Ouiji board,

641
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 2: which sounds kind of fun. And then on the other hand,

642
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,320
Speaker 2: has Bro has got to be one of the biggest

643
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 2: commissioners of like science fiction and fantasy art in the world,

644
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,240
Speaker 2: and I know there's a lot of discussion nowadays about

645
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 2: how much of that is going to end up being

646
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 2: AI generated. And I believe you had a big round

647
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 2: of layoffs announced last year and they're probably still ongoing.

648
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,319
Speaker 2: A lot of those were in the art department. So

649
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:45,760
Speaker 2: can you talk to us about the impact of AI

650
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 2: on your business, both in terms of new products and

651
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 2: then also I guess how it would affect the art

652
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:54,360
Speaker 2: of a lot of your games.

653
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 4: Yeah. Sure. Actually, just to correct it upfront, we are

654
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 4: going through a series of layoffs as part of restructuring

655
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 4: our toy and commercial organizations. But that's not affecting Wizards

656
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 4: of the Coast. They had some modest impacts, but that

657
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 4: was actually mostly kind of the back office related roles.

658
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 4: We really prize design talent, art talent, and generally creativity.

659
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 4: It's what fuels our brands. We prize it both internally

660
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 4: in terms of the employees we have and the great

661
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,319
Speaker 4: talent that we're able to attract to the company. And

662
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,240
Speaker 4: we really prize it in terms of you know, really

663
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 4: the Triple A top shelf artists that we work with

664
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 4: both to help us drive concept art and new product development,

665
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 4: as well as all the art commissioning we do for

666
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:43,320
Speaker 4: the thousands of new magic cards and D and D

667
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 4: books and imagery that we do every year. You know,

668
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 4: I would say for AI, AI is a big topic,

669
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 4: like we could probably do like three or four podcasts

670
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 4: on that and its impacts on any given industry. I

671
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 4: suppose I'll start with the headline color Meia and AII optimist.

672
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,839
Speaker 4: In terms of coming from the industry of play, it's

673
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:09,440
Speaker 4: an incredibly playful, very high impact set of technologies that

674
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:14,800
Speaker 4: really can light up the average player, the average fans.

675
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 4: Creativity really creates and enables amazing user generated content. And

676
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:26,240
Speaker 4: as someone who builds games that really rely on storytelling,

677
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:31,919
Speaker 4: that relies on an end user's creativity and people collaborating

678
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,839
Speaker 4: around a table. I think there's really exciting possibilities for it.

679
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 4: You know. That said, we're in a lot of undiscovered

680
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:42,360
Speaker 4: country as it relates to AI, and we have to

681
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 4: deploy it very, very responsibly and at a measured pace

682
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 4: because we got to make sure that creatives are paid

683
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 4: for their work. You know, we're a company that values creativity,

684
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 4: and therefore we value creatives. So we're thinking through, how

685
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:03,839
Speaker 4: do we do this way that's ethical, that's responsible, that

686
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 4: gives voice actors, gives actors, gives artists, gives writers their

687
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,799
Speaker 4: fair shake inside of it. And you know, I think

688
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:14,399
Speaker 4: it's going to take us a little bit of time

689
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:16,439
Speaker 4: and the industry as a whole to figure it out.

690
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:19,879
Speaker 4: But I'm pleased with how we're going about it. I'm

691
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 4: sure there'll be instances where you know, we have to

692
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 4: police things carefully. You know, you'll see AI pop up

693
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:31,319
Speaker 4: in art now and then that's not something that we're

694
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 4: doing by design. It's something that just happens when you

695
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:37,719
Speaker 4: work with hundreds of different artists who have different kind

696
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 4: of motivations and different kind of thoughts on things. Generally speaking,

697
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 4: in our finished products, everything will be human created and

698
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 4: human finished. However, when we think about AI enabled tools

699
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 4: that kind of bring fun to life and it enables

700
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 4: users to be able to create things, sure, I think

701
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:03,799
Speaker 4: we will use our art, we will use ORIP, and

702
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 4: we will try to use that to create ethically trained

703
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:11,240
Speaker 4: art and ethically trained AI tools that kind of bring

704
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 4: imaginations to life. You know, if I just look at

705
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:16,479
Speaker 4: like my own D and D groups, and I play

706
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 4: in three different D and D groups, nice, I can't

707
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 4: tell you a single person around the table who doesn't

708
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 4: use AI in some way, shape or form to help

709
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 4: either craft their character, help inspire an adventure, bring imagery

710
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 4: and audio to life. And so you know, if that's

711
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 4: just my little kind of ballpark of twenty or thirty

712
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,720
Speaker 4: players that I play with on the regular, I'm sure

713
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 4: that's happening across the vast tens of millions of people

714
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 4: who play the game. And so when your users are

715
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,279
Speaker 4: telling you that they're using a tool and that they're

716
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 4: valuing it, I think you have to take notice and

717
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 4: you have to figure out how to harness it.

718
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 2: Oh this reminds me, actually, I remember hearing about the

719
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 2: Open gaming license controversy for Dungeons and Dragons, and there

720
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:07,279
Speaker 2: was a lot of debate and a lot of outrage

721
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 2: initially about some of the changes you were proposing. But

722
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,839
Speaker 2: since we're on the topic of you know, user generated

723
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 2: content and Dungeons and Dragons is famous for the amount

724
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,800
Speaker 2: of participation that gamers actually have, and that talked to

725
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,920
Speaker 2: us about how that controversy, like, what were the lessons

726
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 2: learned from that and how did it all end, because

727
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 2: I think it's been resolved somewhat at this point.

728
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that was about a year and a

729
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 4: half ago, and that was a serious case of foot

730
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 4: and mouth disease. From our perspective, we did it wrong

731
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:42,239
Speaker 4: and we apologized and I think we quickly made amends.

732
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 4: I think where we were coming from on that whole

733
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 4: thing and the Open Game License, for people who don't

734
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 4: know it, was something that was established about twenty ish

735
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 4: years ago that basically opens up the rule set and

736
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:58,400
Speaker 4: some of the core content for Dungeons and Dragons to

737
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,839
Speaker 4: create a lingu of frame, a rule set and set

738
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 4: of content for people to be able to play tabletop

739
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 4: role playing games. So what we were trying to do is.

740
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,759
Speaker 4: We were trying to evolve it because a document that

741
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:14,360
Speaker 4: was created in two thousand and two didn't foresee the

742
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 4: rise of video games, it didn't foresee the rise of

743
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:22,320
Speaker 4: AI tools, it didn't foresee even things like content streaming.

744
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 4: So our goal there was to try to protect an

745
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:30,880
Speaker 4: end user's ability to be able to make content and

746
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:34,840
Speaker 4: have fun, and a creator's ability to create content and

747
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:37,400
Speaker 4: be able to make a living off of it, while

748
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:41,879
Speaker 4: preventing kind of like a quick serve restaurant from using

749
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 4: the D and D brand to sell tacos, or a

750
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 4: big video game company to be able to create a

751
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:52,279
Speaker 4: video game using the IP in a way that wasn't

752
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:56,320
Speaker 4: fair to us as the kind of quote unquote brand owners,

753
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 4: or maybe do something that we didn't necessarily like with

754
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 4: the brand, or had content that was inappropriate, which happens

755
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 4: when you have tons of millions of users making content.

756
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 4: I think we found a fair and equitable solution to it.

757
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 4: You know, if anything, we embraced open source even more.

758
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 4: We also are opening up our own distribution platforms like

759
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 4: D and D Beyond to you know, create marketplaces where

760
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 4: more and more creators and more and more users can

761
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:28,880
Speaker 4: be able to share their content and hopefully, you know,

762
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 4: make a nice living off of their content. I think

763
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:33,759
Speaker 4: you're going to see more and more from that from

764
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 4: us in terms of how we expand that marketplace opportunity

765
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:39,839
Speaker 4: and how we think about new ways that they can

766
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 4: create content, for instance, on something we're calling a virtual tabletop,

767
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:48,839
Speaker 4: which is an Unreal Engine five powered kind of like sandbox,

768
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 4: where you can build full three D models of like

769
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 4: miniatures and buildings and special effects. And you know, I

770
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 4: think that'll be a wonderful opportunity for people and really

771
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 4: leverage kind of the legacy of the OGL in a

772
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:05,839
Speaker 4: positive and new way.

773
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 2: Oh that sounds really fun. What are your favorite games

774
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 2: to play? Give us some recommendations, and they don't all

775
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 2: have to be from the Hawsbro universe, but you know,

776
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:16,839
Speaker 2: having spoken to you, it sounds like a lot of them.

777
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 4: Are fortunately, many, many, many of them are well. Certainly,

778
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 4: if you're into role playing games and you haven't played

779
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 4: Balder's Gate three, that's a seminal role playing game. It

780
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:30,239
Speaker 4: won I think it swept all of the major Game

781
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:32,720
Speaker 4: of the Year awards. It swept all of the major

782
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 4: role playing Game of the Year awards, and it's just

783
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:37,880
Speaker 4: a fabulous game from our partners with Larry, and I

784
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 4: think they hit a home run on that. I obviously

785
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:42,439
Speaker 4: think Monopoly Go is a lot of fun, and there's

786
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:45,400
Speaker 4: several hundred million people who agree with me, so I

787
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 4: think if you're looking for something to tick some time

788
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 4: away on your subway commute, that one's a lot of

789
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 4: fun as well. I'm kind of a hardcore, crunchy gamer,

790
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 4: I think you can tell based on my answers and

791
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 4: a little bit nerdy, but actually my favorite game is Scrabble,

792
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 4: so I really enjoy playing that. And I suppose if

793
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 4: I was going to pick a competitors game, what's a

794
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 4: fun game that I play with my family from a competitor,

795
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 4: so I will pick two. If you're a little nerdy

796
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 4: and want a fun kind of D and D light experience,

797
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 4: Munchkin is probably one of my family's favorite games that

798
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:26,279
Speaker 4: has a very Monopoly esque kind of vibe to it,

799
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 4: where you're in coopetition trying to be the first tiny

800
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:33,400
Speaker 4: creature to complete a dungeon and power yourselves up, and

801
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:36,760
Speaker 4: then of course ultimately the other players who've been helping

802
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 4: you stabs you in the back at the end to

803
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 4: prevent you from Being First, and then another family favorite,

804
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 4: this one I think is from Asmodi out of Europe

805
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:47,839
Speaker 4: is Ticket to Ride. That's just a really fun kind

806
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:50,319
Speaker 4: of travel themed game where you become kind of a

807
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:52,520
Speaker 4: railroad tycoon. So that's a fun one too.

808
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 2: Oh, both of these sound amazing. Sorry, I'm looking them

809
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 2: up as you speak. That sounds great, okay, Chris Cox,

810
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 2: the CEO of hasan Bro, thank you so much for

811
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 2: coming on of those.

812
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 4: Hey, thank you so much for having me, Joe.

813
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 2: I thought that was a fun conversation. I just like

814
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:19,720
Speaker 2: talking about games.

815
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 3: Really, Tracy, are you ever going to invite me to

816
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 3: one of your game made ups out up in Connecticut?

817
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 3: I don't know.

818
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 2: I would love you to come play board games, Joe.

819
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 3: Really, yeah, okay, I'll come out. What game are we

820
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:33,799
Speaker 3: going to play?

821
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 4: Oh?

822
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 2: You know, this isn't really a board game per se,

823
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 2: but I would love to play Avalon with you. I

824
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 2: think you'd be good at it. Okay, this is the

825
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:43,960
Speaker 2: one where you basically lie to your friends and annoy

826
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 2: everyone that you know.

827
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 3: I'm done with that. So, in all seriousness, it is

828
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 3: interesting to think about game. You know, people are always

829
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 3: talking about, Oh, we want like real world connection. If

830
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 3: it's like oh third Spaces and all this stuff. It

831
00:46:56,880 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 3: is interesting to think like games are a little little

832
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 3: bit unique in that respect in which there is this

833
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 3: sort of like in person put down the phone community event,

834
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 3: Like there's you know, people play games on their phone,

835
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 3: people play them on their computers. But there is something

836
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:15,440
Speaker 3: like powerful about a board game from a sort of

837
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 3: social perspective. Oh.

838
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:20,279
Speaker 2: Absolutely. And I have to say board game cafes, of

839
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 2: which there seem to be there are more of those

840
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 2: in New York than there used to be. Those are fantastic,

841
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 2: like spaces just to socialize. I love going to those.

842
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 2: The other thing that I thought was really interesting was

843
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 2: the discussion about AI generated Arn't and the sort of

844
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 2: balancing act there also kind of funny to discuss that

845
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:44,240
Speaker 2: in the context of the Dungeons and Dragons licensing controversy.

846
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 3: Also, I thought it was interesting and I was a

847
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,239
Speaker 3: little bit had my mind blown that when Chris was

848
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:52,800
Speaker 3: talking about his own gaming community and coming up with

849
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:56,280
Speaker 3: the stories that every single one of them is using

850
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 3: AI for that purpose. Yeah, which, I you know, you

851
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:02,320
Speaker 3: figure out some people when they're like developing a story

852
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 3: or going to use it. But the fact that's like

853
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 3: one hundred percent of his community is doing that is

854
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:07,360
Speaker 3: pretty powerful.

855
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 2: Well, and also like how do businesses even start to

856
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:13,680
Speaker 2: take that into account? And Chris mentioned this, but the

857
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 2: idea that like, Okay, you're working with hundreds, if not thousands,

858
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:20,799
Speaker 2: of different artists, some of them might be using AI, right,

859
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:22,400
Speaker 2: you know, you can ask them maybe to sign a

860
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 2: disclosure or something like that, But it seems like you're

861
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:28,960
Speaker 2: never going to be able to like police it entirely

862
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:30,839
Speaker 2: because people are using it as a tool.

863
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 3: By the way, can I just say, like, I feel

864
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:37,760
Speaker 3: if the CEO of Hasbro plays Monopoly on cheat mode

865
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 3: where he's like adding in a little Lextra house to

866
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:43,840
Speaker 3: a property surreptitiously, or taking one hundred dollars from the

867
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:46,799
Speaker 3: bank or doing the free parking stuff, I feel like

868
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:48,799
Speaker 3: that's a license for all of us to cheat.

869
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:52,360
Speaker 2: Or should buy the actual Monopoly Cheaters edition, which sounds

870
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:52,960
Speaker 2: kind of fun.

871
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's more fun if you're not supposed to

872
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 3: cheat and you actually do it, right. But I was

873
00:48:57,920 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 3: I was actually kind of flabbergasted. I thought he would

874
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 3: be a very like strict, you know, by the book

875
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 3: type when it came to gameplay.

876
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 2: Maybe this is the way to play it, to just

877
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:08,759
Speaker 2: make it as chaotic as possible. I mean, it sounds

878
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 2: like that's what Monopoly Go is doing.

879
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:12,719
Speaker 3: And it sounds like that's really a big part of

880
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 3: the fun for people.

881
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:13,960
Speaker 1: Cush.

882
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:17,319
Speaker 2: There's a Chance edition of Monopoly as well. Sorry, I'm

883
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 2: just flicking through all the different Monopoly editions again. The

884
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 2: Monopoly Chance game is the high stakes card flipping version

885
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 2: of the Monopoly game, and it only takes twenty minutes

886
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 2: to play.

887
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 3: That would be nice because I would play more Monopoly.

888
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:32,800
Speaker 2: If it didn't take like two hours.

889
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:34,920
Speaker 3: The thing. It's a pretty big time investment in game

890
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 3: of Monopoly.

891
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:37,400
Speaker 2: I need to tell you about the time I was

892
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:39,879
Speaker 2: in Guatemala and I got caught up in a game

893
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:42,359
Speaker 2: of risk that went on, I kid you not for

894
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:43,920
Speaker 2: twelve hours all night.

895
00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:46,360
Speaker 3: I'm not forward to hearing this story.

896
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:50,280
Speaker 2: I was trying to extricate myself for hours by losing

897
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:53,360
Speaker 2: and it didn't work, and for various reasons, I couldn't

898
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:56,680
Speaker 2: just walk away from the table anyway. Story for another day.

899
00:49:56,719 --> 00:49:57,440
Speaker 2: Shall we leave it there.

900
00:49:57,560 --> 00:49:58,200
Speaker 3: Let's leave it there.

901
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:01,439
Speaker 2: This has been another episode of Odd Thlots podcast. I'm

902
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:04,440
Speaker 2: Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway.

903
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:06,840
Speaker 3: And I'm Jill Wisenthal. You can follow me at the Stalwart.

904
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:10,480
Speaker 3: Follow our producers Carmen Rodriguez at Carmen Arman, dash Ol

905
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:13,880
Speaker 3: Bennett at Dashbott and Kelbrooks at Kelbrooks. Thank you to

906
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:17,040
Speaker 3: our producer Moses Ondam. For more Oddlaws content, go to

907
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 3: Bloomberg dot com slash odlots, where you have transcripts, a blog,

908
00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 3: and a newsletter and you can chat about all of

909
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:25,719
Speaker 3: these topics with fellow listeners twenty four to seven in

910
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:29,240
Speaker 3: the discord discord dot gg slash odlots. I am certain

911
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:32,360
Speaker 3: that there are many games players in there for sure.

912
00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 2: And if you enjoy all thoughts, If you like it

913
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:37,160
Speaker 2: when we do these gaming episodes, then please leave us

914
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:41,360
Speaker 2: a positive review on your favorite podcast platform. And remember,

915
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:43,799
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916
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917
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918
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:53,080
Speaker 2: In order to do that, just go on Apple Podcasts,

919
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Speaker 2: find the Bloomberg channel and follow the instructions there. Thanks

920
00:50:56,640 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 2: for listening it in