1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: Hey, Saturday Classics listeners. Today's classic is thanks to our 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:08,160 Speaker 1: listener Rich who wrote in to remind us that there's 3 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:12,480 Speaker 1: a great Smithsonian exhibit currently running that features Francis Glessner 4 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:16,920 Speaker 1: Lee's nutshell dioramas. Yeah, we have shared some articles about 5 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:19,640 Speaker 1: that exhibit on our social media, but we haven't mentioned 6 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: it on the show until now. So if you don't 7 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 1: know what those dioramas are, no worries. This episode from 8 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: back in is going to explain the whole thing and 9 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: how a wealthy heiress advanced the field of forensic investigation. 10 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: It's a pretty fascinating story of how one woman completely 11 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: changed an area of uh investigation and knowledge that she 12 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: really had no prior connection to. So I really love 13 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:46,239 Speaker 1: it for that reason, and we also wanted to make 14 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: sure that we share information about the exhibit before we 15 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 1: start on this classic episode so that you can easily 16 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 1: find it. It is called Murder is her hobby, Francis 17 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: Glessner Lee and the Nutshell Studies of Unexplained Death, And 18 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 1: it is running right now and it will can tinue 19 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: to run until January. And you're if you're listening to 20 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 1: this episode sometime in the future. Right now is November 21 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 1: of so you can find all the details about this 22 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:16,680 Speaker 1: whole thing at the Smithsonian American Art Museum's Renwick Gallery. 23 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 1: There's also a series of public programs you can attend 24 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:22,119 Speaker 1: about the exhibit, and Francis Glessner Lee and We will 25 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:25,040 Speaker 1: link to all the information and the show notes. For now. 26 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 1: You can get a little background on the topic in 27 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: this episode. Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class 28 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 1: from house stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to 29 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 1: the podcast I'll Fry and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. Today's 30 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 1: topic is one that has been on my list for 31 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 1: a very long time, almost from the time that Uh, 32 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: Tracy and I came on to Stuff you Missed in 33 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: History Class, and many listeners have also requested it. It 34 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 1: uh sort of equal parts quaint and horrifying, which is 35 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: probably why people really love it so much and respond 36 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:10,519 Speaker 1: to this. Uh. And it also features a woman who was, uh, 37 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 1: you know, a debutante heiress, but sort of anything but 38 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,079 Speaker 1: the standard debutante heiress you may conjure in your mind 39 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 1: when you hear those words. And even though she was 40 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:23,519 Speaker 1: sort of forced into that role and she had some 41 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 1: you know, society bucking instincts about where a woman should 42 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: be in uh, in her place, and how that was 43 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: going to work. You know, she was still nonetheless an 44 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 1: heiress and part of that structure that had made her 45 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 1: h that had given her that position. And her name 46 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 1: was Francis Glessner Lee, and she was a very meticulous woman. Uh. 47 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 1: There are stories that you'll hear that she was so 48 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: exacting that she actually would number the bottoms of vases 49 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 1: and knickknacks uh and similarly label the shelves that they 50 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 1: were supposed to go on with corresponding numbers, so everything 51 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:59,920 Speaker 1: would always be in its exact space. That's just like 52 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 1: a quick character insight for you, because it would maybe 53 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 1: be no surprise then that this woman, who was surprising 54 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 1: in many ways, was a major contributor to the world 55 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: of forensic science and criminology and we actually have a 56 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:17,399 Speaker 1: lot to thank her for. So Francis Glessner Lee came 57 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: from a very wealthy family. Her father was John Jacob Glessner, 58 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,360 Speaker 1: and he made his fortune in the farm implement industry. 59 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 1: Her mother, Sarah Francis Macbeth Glessner, had met John Jacob 60 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: when her family had taken him in as a border 61 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 1: and the Glossners were very active in civic affairs. Both 62 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: of Francis's parents wrote a great deal. John served on 63 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: the boards of many civic organizations, including the Citizens Association 64 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 1: of Chicago and the Chicago Orphan Asylum, and he was 65 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 1: also a trustee of the Chicago Orchestra Association. Sarah was 66 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: something of a renaissance woman. Not only was she skilled 67 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: as a seamstress, but she also studied piano, silver smithing, 68 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 1: and beekeeping. She organized gather rings for women where they 69 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 1: could hear lectures and readings about contemporary writing, and she 70 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 1: was one of the founders of the Chicago Chamber Music 71 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: Society and was a passionate advocate for the arts. Sarah 72 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: and John's first child was George Macbeth Glessner, and he 73 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: was born in eighteen seventy one, and because George had 74 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: chronic and serious hay fever, the family ended up building 75 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:23,720 Speaker 1: a second summer house in New Hampshire so he could 76 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:27,919 Speaker 1: get away from the the issues in Chicago in spring 77 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 1: and summer that would cause this hay fever to uh 78 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: sort of be a problem for him. The couple had 79 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 1: a second son in eighteen seventy four. Although the baby, 80 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: John Francis sadly died when he was eight months old, 81 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 1: and then their daughter, Francis Glessner, was born on March 82 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:47,600 Speaker 1: twenty five, eighteen seventy eight. Because of George's ongoing health issues, 83 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,040 Speaker 1: the children were home schooled instead of sent to school 84 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 1: by a series of tutors. And that was also actually 85 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: pretty common for well to do families at the time 86 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:58,599 Speaker 1: to school their children at home. Yeah, we've had a 87 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 1: lot of podcast subjects who all are at home. Francis 88 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:04,600 Speaker 1: grew up in Glessner House, which was designed by architect 89 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: Henry Hobson Richardson and was built in seven This house, 90 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 1: which is on Chicago's Prairie Avenue in the South Loop, 91 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 1: is now a National Historic Landmark and museum. Once the 92 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 1: Glessners moved into Glessner House, they spent winters there and 93 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 1: summers in their New Hampshire cabin, which was called the Rocks. 94 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 1: And during one of those summers while they were in 95 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: New Hampshire, the family was joined by George's friend, another 96 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: George named George Burgess McGrath. And this name you want 97 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 1: to just keep in the back of your head because 98 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 1: he would become a pretty significant influence on Francis later 99 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 1: in her life. As Francis, who went by Fanny among 100 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: her family members, started to approach adulthood, she became interested 101 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: in pursuing a career in law or medicine, but her 102 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:51,159 Speaker 1: parents were really against this idea. There are some unsubstantiated 103 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 1: reports that their father, John actually believed that ladies should 104 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: know nothing of the human body, which sort of makes 105 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: me giggle a little bit. But you know, you of one, 106 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 1: you're going to fundamentally know a few things. But it's 107 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,719 Speaker 1: an interesting mindset and not all of that unusual for 108 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:10,479 Speaker 1: the early nineteen hundreds, I imagine. So instead of going 109 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 1: to university, which she had wanted to do, in which 110 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 1: her brother George was doing, Francis spent a little more 111 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:18,599 Speaker 1: than a year traveling through Europe with her aunt Helen 112 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 1: macbeth from eighteen ninety six to eighteen ninety seven, and 113 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: after they returned to Chicago, Francis made her formal Society 114 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:30,559 Speaker 1: debut in November of eighteen. Just a few months after 115 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 1: being presented into Society, Francis married lawyer blew it Lee, 116 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 1: who was distantly related to Robert Eally, and the new 117 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:40,039 Speaker 1: couple moved into a townhouse the Glysteners had built for 118 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: Fanny on Prairie Avenue near the Glessner house. Her brother 119 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,480 Speaker 1: George also had a townhouse built by their parents, and 120 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 1: Francis was nineteen when she married. This marriage was not 121 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 1: an especially happy one. Eventually it became clear that Francis 122 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: and blew It really did not have all that much 123 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: in common and they didn't share that many interests. One 124 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: story that her son eventually tells is that, um, you know, 125 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 1: she wanted to make things and do things all the time, 126 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:08,919 Speaker 1: and blew It was just not into that. So it 127 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: really they just had a separation of mind. Uh. The 128 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: Perry eventually divorced in nineteen fourteen, but not before they 129 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: had already had three children together. So their children were 130 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: John glessnar Lee who was born in Frances Lee born 131 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: in nineteen o three, and Martha Lee, who was born 132 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: in nineteen o six. And before we go on and 133 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: talk about sort of what her life becomes after divorce, 134 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: so let's take a quick word from our sponsor. So 135 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 1: now back to Francis glessnar Lee after her divorce. So, 136 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 1: once her marriage was over and she suddenly had a 137 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 1: new life to begin, Francis returned to a hobby that 138 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: she had actually learned as a child, which was making miniatures, 139 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: and in nine thirteen, while she was separated but not 140 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: yet divorced from her husband, she completed her first solo 141 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: miniature diorama. And this was a detailed recreation of the 142 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 1: Chicago Symphony Orchestra, which was one of the many arts 143 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: organizations her mother was very passionate about. And this was 144 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: complete with tiny pieces of sheet music and tiny instrument 145 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: cases and little instrument stands, and it was all compiled 146 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: as a gift for her mother. She also took advantage 147 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: of her newfound independence to learn about a subject that 148 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: she had been introduced to by the family friend we 149 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, George Burgess McGrath, and this was forensic science. 150 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 1: McGrath had studied medicine at Harvard and then had gone 151 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: on to become a medical examiner. And McGrath's work was 152 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 1: immensely interesting to Francis. There's a story that while she 153 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 1: was ill at one point, he would come and visit 154 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 1: her every night and talk about his work UH to 155 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 1: keep her company, and she just became utterly engulfed in 156 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 1: her passion for it. UH and she became so interested 157 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 1: in it that in the nineteen thirties she actually gave 158 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: Harvard an endowment of two d and fifty thou dollars, 159 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: which has been estimated to be about three point eight 160 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: million in today's money adjusted for the establishment of a 161 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: department of legal medicine. And it's often speculated in biographies 162 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: of gless Earn Lee that she was as a divorcee 163 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: who now made her own decisions and was truly independent. 164 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 1: She was making up for the education that she had 165 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: been denied when she was a young woman and had 166 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 1: wanted to study but had not been allowed to by 167 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: her family. She also continued to give financial gifts to 168 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: the university. Uh This went on through the years to 169 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:35,559 Speaker 1: further the department's growth and development, and her friend McGrath 170 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 1: became chair of the new department and taught pathology as 171 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 1: part of the program. And as we mentioned earlier, Frances 172 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 1: was from a very wealthy family and she had married well, 173 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: even though the marriage did not last, but she u 174 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: we cannot say enough how much she did not fit 175 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:55,199 Speaker 1: the usual mold of a moneyed society heiress. So while 176 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:58,439 Speaker 1: the other women of society were throwing dinner parties for 177 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: equally wealthy friends and as though see it's she would 178 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 1: often host large dinner parties for detectives and investigators and 179 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: scientists so she could pick their brains about their work. 180 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 1: I love it so much too, and as you know, 181 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 1: part of her again meticulous character that people love to 182 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: talk about in any interview with anybody that knew her, 183 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:19,959 Speaker 1: they seemed to really want to be very clear that 184 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 1: this was an exacting person um like the menus would 185 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: just be really she would be so picky about everything 186 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 1: that they ate and it had to be perfect, and 187 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: she you know, wanted them to absolutely have the best 188 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: of everything, as though they were you know, her equals 189 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: in terms of financial footing in society. Um, these dinner 190 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 1: parties were apparently amazing, and in three gless near Lee 191 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: really made a bit of history because she had been 192 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: learning about forensics and had really been kind of moving 193 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:53,679 Speaker 1: in these circles for so long that she was made 194 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: honorary Captain of the New Hampshire State Police at this time, 195 00:10:57,160 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 1: and that was a title that no other woman held 196 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 1: at that point. In she hosted the first Harvard Associates 197 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: and Police Science or perhaps a seminar. This was an 198 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: invitation only event where attendees were treated to lavish meals 199 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 1: and an intensive week of learning the latest methods in 200 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 1: crime scene investigation from experts in the field, and those 201 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 1: were also equally meticulous these social events that centered around it. 202 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 1: There's a story that I read in in one of 203 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 1: my sources that she purchased an eight thousand dollar china 204 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 1: set for the hotel that hosted this event every year, 205 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 1: and it was only used for this event. It was 206 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: basically her china that she kept at the hotel for 207 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 1: this thing that would happen twice a year. And because 208 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 1: I guess there's wasn't good enough. I'm not it was 209 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 1: unclear why she felt compelled to buy this whole set 210 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 1: of china. I'm gonna think maybe she was just person nickety, 211 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: I think a little bit um And through all of 212 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: her talks with investigators and detectives and her discussions with 213 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,439 Speaker 1: mc grant about his work, this idea had been forming 214 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 1: in gless Early's mind about how she could personally further 215 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:06,959 Speaker 1: the field of investigation outside of just being a financial donor. 216 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: I mean, she was really funneling a lot of money 217 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: into this department at Harvard with the intent that she 218 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 1: was going to raise the standards, uh, you know, through 219 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 1: education of how criminal investigation worked. So she came to 220 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 1: realize that if the police had prolonged access to a 221 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,680 Speaker 1: crime scene, they could find the clues that would reveal 222 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:29,199 Speaker 1: the events that had occurred there, which to us is 223 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: kind of like, well, yeah, but crime scenes just can't 224 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: be maintained indefinitely and the evidence there can be corrupted 225 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: or lost. And additionally, for investigators in training, there were 226 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 1: just never enough crime scenes in which they could practice 227 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 1: their skills. So Gless nearly came up with an idea 228 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: to train investigators and to develop their observation skills. So 229 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 1: this is sort of the thing she's most well known 230 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 1: for over a seven year period from ninety three to 231 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty, so some of this was going on concurrently 232 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 1: with her development of these seminars. She assembled this group 233 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: of projects called the Nutshell Studies of Unexplained Death. And 234 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: these were tiny dioramas that would have been in most 235 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: regards idyllic dollhouse scenes, weren't not for the fact the 236 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: fact that each of them depicted a death of some kind. 237 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: So each of these scenes, they're eighteen and all was 238 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: assembled based on case reports and court records about actual deaths, 239 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: and some of the dioramas would combine multiple cases, and 240 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: while all of the case details were meticulously recreated, that 241 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: they core in each grizzly scene was chosen by the heiress. 242 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:44,319 Speaker 1: So these have been described by many with some degree 243 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 1: of amusement because they're clearly like the impression that a 244 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 1: wealthy woman who has only known a life of luxury 245 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 1: has of how the middle and lower class lived. They're 246 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 1: often pretty garish. Yeah, it's one of those things that 247 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,319 Speaker 1: people kind of giggle about, even though you know she 248 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: really wasn't into all of the society trappings. It was 249 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 1: clearly all she had known. So even in their cabin 250 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 1: in New Hampshire, which was a very small and sort 251 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: of simple affair, it's still had the best of everything. 252 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 1: And again, this is a woman that's spent thousands of 253 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: dollars to have the perfect china for for police seminars. 254 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 1: So clearly she knew a certain aesthetic and a certain life, 255 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 1: and so when she imagined what uh poor people lived like, 256 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 1: or even middle class people, it was kind of very 257 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: funny the things she would put together and pick out, 258 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: as how their houses would look. Uh, the smallest of 259 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: these dioramas is eight by fourteen inches and the largest 260 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: is a thirty inch square three room dwelling. And I 261 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: cannot stress enough how incredibly detailed these are there in 262 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 1: one inch to one foot scale. But they have teeny 263 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 1: tiny cigarettes that she hand rolled. They have mice in 264 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 1: the walls, and sometimes mice and little traps. There are 265 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: socks that she hand knitted on straight pins, and she 266 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: would like whittle She would hand whittled tiny tiny clothes 267 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: pins that would fill these dioramas. So they were full of, 268 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: you know, sort of the debris of life and and 269 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: all of the things that are just normal parts of 270 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: any given home in this teeny tiny scale that she 271 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: had meticulously created. So again the word meticulous keeps coming up. 272 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: And there's a reason she was. Uh. The skin on 273 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: the dolls that she used was carefully painted to mimic decomposition. 274 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 1: In some cases, if it was a case where the 275 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 1: scene was supposed to be found with this body having 276 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: been there for a while, the blood spatter is carefully 277 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: applied to walls. In cases where there is one there's 278 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 1: one piece that's entitled burned cabin. And she had again 279 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 1: meticulously built this entire cabin and then she burned it 280 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: down with a blowtorch. UM, and she was also using UH. 281 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 1: She didn't do all of this all by herself, although 282 00:15:57,680 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: most of it was, but she would also use carpon 283 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 1: or sometimes she had a carpenter that she retained and 284 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 1: really trusted, and he would work on some of the 285 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: smaller woodworking elements of it. So in these dioramas, the 286 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: shades and the drawers all work. The doors have these 287 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 1: tidy functioning locks with anybody keys. In the scenes where 288 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: their children, there are miniature toys that are carefully recreated 289 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: to mimic full sized versions. And aside from their criminology impact, 290 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 1: these dioramas are just incredible works of art all on 291 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: their own. But the most important thing about these scenes, 292 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: as much as I could personally go on and on 293 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: about all of their little details that just completely capture 294 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 1: my attention, UH, they provided really important learning models for investigators. 295 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: So through an analysis of each of these tiny crime scenes, UH, 296 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 1: a systematic approach to crime scene investigation was really developed. 297 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:05,160 Speaker 1: She basically reduced these two UH investigators police officers and detectives, 298 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: and they used them to develop the methods that are 299 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: still being used today. Uh. These include like using search 300 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 1: zones to analyze a crime scene, and investigative patterns where 301 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: they'll sometimes circle a scene from like the outside and 302 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: spiral in word two so that they don't miss any details. 303 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 1: And these are standard procedures now, and they came from 304 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 1: these tiny, little sort of dollhouse dioramas. Yeah, what's amazing 305 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 1: to me isn't just that their standard procedure now, but 306 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:37,639 Speaker 1: that before anybody put together a methodology like this, the 307 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: whole field of crime scene investigation was kind of chaos. 308 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:43,120 Speaker 1: Like we talked about in our acts Man of New 309 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: Orleans episodes, like their people didn't really have a standardized 310 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:50,640 Speaker 1: and methodical way of looking at a scene to try 311 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 1: to find evidence, and so they didn't and so even 312 00:17:53,760 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: when they would consult with uh other other investigators, sometimes 313 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,159 Speaker 1: they just weren't working off the same page because they 314 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 1: didn't use the same approaches in all cases, and it 315 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:10,199 Speaker 1: just made things really tricky and needlessly complicated. So one 316 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: of the things that she even did as part of 317 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,400 Speaker 1: her seminars that she was hosting is she was basically 318 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:20,120 Speaker 1: creating a network of investigative researchers, so men that had 319 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: gone through. Uh. Eventually, I presume women attended, but in 320 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:26,880 Speaker 1: the early days it was all men that had gone 321 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:30,200 Speaker 1: through these classes, and these seminars would then be connected 322 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:32,959 Speaker 1: to one another after they graduated the seminar, and they 323 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: would consult with each other, and she sort of developed this, 324 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:40,120 Speaker 1: you know, she catalyzed this network developing where detectives could 325 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: talk to each other about things they had found at 326 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 1: crime scenes and really, um, you know, kind of grow 327 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: the field in a way that it never would have 328 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 1: grown otherwise if somebody hadn't said, let's all get in 329 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,120 Speaker 1: a room together and talk about what we're doing. It's 330 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:55,919 Speaker 1: very cool. So all of these scenes, I mean, they 331 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 1: all had a backstory of their own. They were put 332 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: together based on actual case reports and actual information about crimes. 333 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 1: But the goal, according to Gless nearly was not to 334 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: solve the crime that had happened in the diorama. It 335 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 1: was to practice observation. And the nutshells became part, as 336 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:14,959 Speaker 1: I said, of these happ seminars. And they've been used 337 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: to train investigators at the gathering for years, so normally 338 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:20,919 Speaker 1: when she was first doing this, I don't know if 339 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 1: the methodology of using them has changed. But like each 340 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: student would be assigned two of the models and they 341 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: would get approximately ninety minutes of study for each scene, 342 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: and then later the student investigators would give a verbal 343 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: report before the group and they would all have a 344 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,199 Speaker 1: discussion of their findings that would ensue and one of 345 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 1: this goal. One of the goals of this practice, as 346 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: I said, she was developing this network and this dialogue 347 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: among different investigators of how they would approach things. But 348 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 1: it was also to get students away from this concept 349 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:54,880 Speaker 1: of following a hunch and instead to take in all 350 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: of the evidence that they see on a crime scene 351 00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:59,239 Speaker 1: with an open mind, like instead of just looking for 352 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:03,119 Speaker 1: things that verify what they suspect has happened, she wanted 353 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: them to learn to look at everything in a crime 354 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:09,399 Speaker 1: scene and not let any stray detail go because they 355 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 1: didn't think it supported what actually happened. This is reminding 356 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 1: me of like an episode of Bones. It should because 357 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,719 Speaker 1: a lot of that grew out of this. Uh. She 358 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:22,200 Speaker 1: is also allegedly I didn't put it in here initially, 359 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: but there have been rumors for years that she was 360 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:28,159 Speaker 1: actually the inspiration for Angela Landsbury's character on Murder. She 361 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,880 Speaker 1: wrote because she was an older woman at this point 362 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: doing all of this excited crime scene investigation. Gless nearly 363 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 1: continued to advocate for medical training for leal agents and 364 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:42,200 Speaker 1: systemized investigation practices and law enforcement all the way until 365 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,199 Speaker 1: the end of her life. Yeah. Prior to her and 366 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,919 Speaker 1: her work with McGrath, coroners for example, didn't need to 367 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 1: have any medical training. It was, you know, an appointment 368 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 1: that they would get and then they would rely on 369 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:57,160 Speaker 1: on the people below them to cover the medical basis. 370 00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: But she really wanted to make sure that there was 371 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:03,679 Speaker 1: a systematic a to uh make sure that trained medical 372 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:07,120 Speaker 1: personnel were involved in investigations and it wasn't just people 373 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 1: guessing that did not know the workings of the human body. 374 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 1: Francis died in New Hampshire at the Rocks at the 375 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 1: small home that her family had had built there, on 376 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:21,200 Speaker 1: January nineteen, two and four years later, the Department of 377 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,360 Speaker 1: Legal Medicine that she had endowed at Harvard was dissolved 378 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:28,399 Speaker 1: for lack of funding. The collection of Nutshell studies became 379 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 1: part of a public display at the Maryland Medical Examiner's 380 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:34,880 Speaker 1: Office when the Department of Legal Medicine was closed. So 381 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 1: not only are they available for a public viewing, but 382 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:41,400 Speaker 1: they're also used as teaching tools for forensic investigation. Yeah, 383 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 1: I think now you have to actually request permission to 384 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 1: go see them. I think there's one in the lobby. 385 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 1: I've read a few different reports and they follow at 386 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:53,919 Speaker 1: different times, like different years that they've been written. I 387 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 1: think there's one or two still in the lobby that 388 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 1: people can just walk in and see, and you can 389 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:00,440 Speaker 1: examine all of them if you just make an appointment 390 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 1: to go up. I think they're on the third floor 391 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: of the Maryland Medical Examiner's Office. Uh So in the 392 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 1: Nutshells actually underwent a restoration that cost about fifty dollars, 393 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 1: just a general sort of upkeep and refresh, although they 394 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: still have the Kukie decor in. A documentary about the 395 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,679 Speaker 1: Nutshell Studies was made entitled of Dolls and Murder and 396 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,880 Speaker 1: it examines the place of Glessners Lee's work in relation 397 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:27,239 Speaker 1: to the forensic world, as well as the role of 398 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: women in society. Yeah, a lot of modern historians have 399 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 1: kind of wanted to analyze her place in terms of 400 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 1: like an an early phase of feminism, which I didn't 401 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 1: get into here. It's covered by other people. I really 402 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,919 Speaker 1: wanted to focus on her crime work. But one of 403 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 1: the most interesting things about Glessner and Lee's work is 404 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 1: perhaps the fact that while she was a self taught 405 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:53,159 Speaker 1: criminologist that was afforded access to this hobby just because 406 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:57,160 Speaker 1: she was an heiress with immense wealth, she became incredibly 407 00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,439 Speaker 1: respected by the men that she worked with and the 408 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,399 Speaker 1: men that she helped to train, and she once said, quote, 409 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:04,399 Speaker 1: I didn't do a lick of work to deserve what 410 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 1: I have. Therefore, I feel I have been left an 411 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,439 Speaker 1: obligation to do something that will benefit everybody. So if 412 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,639 Speaker 1: you're wondering why an heiress thought that it would be 413 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,920 Speaker 1: fun to do this and became so impassionate about developing 414 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: criminology systems, that is why in her early years of 415 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 1: studying and working for forensic science, she may have been 416 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 1: seen as kind of this wealthy, eccentric lady, but that 417 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 1: image has been completely eclipsed by the important influence of 418 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:37,880 Speaker 1: her work. Yeah, many men, uh. In looking at research 419 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: for this, I saw many men that she had worked 420 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,119 Speaker 1: with through the years really described her as one of 421 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,640 Speaker 1: the best criminologists they had ever met, Like she definitely 422 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 1: knew what she was talking about. She wasn't just making 423 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:52,360 Speaker 1: cute dollhouse scenes to play with um. She was very 424 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: focused and it was it was not random at all. 425 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 1: She really was super smart, super well educated, even if 426 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: it was not in a formal setting. And she wrote 427 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: an article in nineteen fifty two for the Journal of 428 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 1: Criminal Law and Criminology. And I just wanted to read 429 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: the last paragraph of it because it it is really 430 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 1: sort of beautiful and it's a good way to end 431 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:18,680 Speaker 1: discussion about her. And it says, quote, technical skill, scientific knowledge, 432 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 1: and professional training, however, are not all there is to 433 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,400 Speaker 1: legal medicine. There is something else, something hard to define, 434 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: which must accompany them. Quote. The application of medical knowledge 435 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,879 Speaker 1: and skill to the uses and purposes of the law 436 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,360 Speaker 1: unquote is not the whole story. It is far more 437 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 1: than that. It is an unremitting quest for facts. It 438 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,479 Speaker 1: is a constant and continuous search for truth in the 439 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: interests of science and justice, to expose the guilty, to 440 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,640 Speaker 1: clear the innocent. It is a dedication of its own 441 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 1: peculiar wisdom and experience to the service of mankind. That 442 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,400 Speaker 1: sort of sums up her entire approach to it, which 443 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,159 Speaker 1: makes me love it. Yea, And now I have a 444 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 1: listener mail right. I have two pieces because they're both shortish. Uh. 445 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 1: First is from our listener Allen, who writes to us often. UH. 446 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: And he's sent us some really beautiful pictures lately while 447 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,119 Speaker 1: he's been traveling the world. Uh. And he says, Hi, 448 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,120 Speaker 1: as you may know from the tiger picture I sent, 449 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: I was in India and now I'm catching up on 450 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 1: my podcast, so I'm behind as a result. I just 451 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 1: heard the one on Ambrose Beers. With that in mind, 452 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:22,639 Speaker 1: I would like to tell you something of interest. I 453 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 1: as a retired psychologist volunteer at the v A in 454 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 1: the PTSD clinic. In listening to his life after the 455 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 1: Civil War, it really sounded like he had PTSD. The 456 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,359 Speaker 1: behaviors you describe sound a lot like those of people 457 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 1: suffering from PTSD, as did the experiences he had in 458 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: the service, including the loss of his close friend. Uh. 459 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 1: And Alan goes on to recommend the book Achilles and 460 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: Vietnam by Jonathan Shay m d, pH d. As a 461 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:49,919 Speaker 1: really good book on the subject if people are interested 462 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: in it. That occurred to me as well. But as 463 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,640 Speaker 1: someone who is not clinically versed in PTSD, I'm I'm 464 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 1: always reluctant to make those jumps, even if it it 465 00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:58,880 Speaker 1: seems like if it's the old So it's just good 466 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 1: to have somebody who is a pro uh, kind of 467 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:03,920 Speaker 1: back up what I think probably many of us were 468 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: thinking in listening to the Ambrose Beer story. So my 469 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,920 Speaker 1: second note is from our listener Kate, and she wrote 470 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,119 Speaker 1: us on Facebook and she says, I recently discovered your 471 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 1: podcast and I'm really enjoying it. I just listened to 472 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,359 Speaker 1: the two Everest podcasts and was left wondering about the 473 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: first woman to summit the mountain? Do you know anything 474 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 1: about her or the history of women climbing? Oh my gosh, 475 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,120 Speaker 1: do I love this topic. I love, love, love this topic. 476 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,120 Speaker 1: So I was really glad Kate asked about it. It's 477 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 1: a little too modern really for us to cover on 478 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 1: the show. Yeah, we have kind of we get some 479 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,399 Speaker 1: suggestions sometimes for things that are a little more modern 480 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 1: than we usually talk about, and our our cutoff is 481 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: kind of the late sixties, early seventies. Yeah, and so, 482 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,120 Speaker 1: but I will answer this as listener me. It gives 483 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:47,679 Speaker 1: me a good opportunity to talk a little bit more 484 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,919 Speaker 1: about Everest and a woman who is really amazing her 485 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: name is Junko Tabei and she was the first woman 486 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: to summit Everest. She is a native of Fukushima, and 487 00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 1: she made her historic ascent in the nineteen seventy five 488 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,360 Speaker 1: five and she's really incredible in many ways. Her life 489 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,719 Speaker 1: story is fabulous because she fought very hard for women's 490 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:10,399 Speaker 1: equality in Japan. She actually founded the Ladies Climbing Club 491 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,920 Speaker 1: of Japan in nine nine. And she really broke cultural 492 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 1: tradition on her ascent because she left her three year 493 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:19,879 Speaker 1: old daughter at home with her husband, just unheard of 494 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,440 Speaker 1: culturally at that point to just go off and climb 495 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,359 Speaker 1: a mountain. And her husband is also a mountaineer, so 496 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: presumably he really had some understanding of, you know, the 497 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: drive that made her want to do this. Her expedition 498 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 1: was incredible because it consisted of a fifteen woman team, 499 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 1: which was the first. Uh it was mocked at the 500 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 1: time by a lot of male mountaineers. Uh So the 501 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 1: events surrounding her summit were already pretty extraordinary and uh 502 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 1: she has since become an advocate of sustainable mountaineering in 503 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 1: the hopes that she can stop some of the destruction 504 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 1: that's happening as more and more climbers take on Everest 505 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,399 Speaker 1: each year. Uh, and we'll link to a couple of 506 00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,479 Speaker 1: really great articles about her in the show notes if 507 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,440 Speaker 1: you want to ead more about her. I have immense 508 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: respect for her. She's an amazing woman. She's still alive. Uh, 509 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,160 Speaker 1: She's just she has the most beautiful smile. I love 510 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: everything about her. I have a little bit of averst 511 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,879 Speaker 1: rabies for someone that doesn't want to climate but but 512 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,879 Speaker 1: I highly recommend reading up on her because she's really incredible. 513 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: She only was the she only got to be the 514 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: only woman that had ever summitted for like less than 515 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 1: two weeks. I think eleven days later, some another woman summitted, 516 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 1: but she um. She continues her work in trying to 517 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 1: really maintain the mountain and I love her sustainable mountaineering 518 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:41,960 Speaker 1: uh work that she's been doing. Thank you so much 519 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: for joining us for this Saturday Classic. 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