WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 13 0:00:02.240 --> 0:00:05.600 The Gangster Chronicles podcast is a weekly conversation that revolves 0:00:05.600 --> 0:00:09.639 around underworld, the criminals and entertainers, to victims, crime and 0:00:09.760 --> 0:00:13.039 law enforcement. We cover all facets of the game. Gangster 0:00:13.119 --> 0:00:17.439 Chronicles podcast doesn't glorify promotilist of activities. We just discussed 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:20.479 the ramifications and repercussions of these activities. Because at the 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:23.439 Wall she played gamester games. You are ultimately rewarded with 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:27.360 Gangster Prizes. Our Heart Radios number one for podcasts, but 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:30.240 don't take our award for it. Find Against the Chronicles 0:00:30.280 --> 0:00:32.680 podcast and my Heart Radio app or wherever you get 0:00:32.720 --> 0:00:38.200 your podcast. It's time to gear up for the NFL postseason. 0:00:40.280 --> 0:00:42.680 Head over to NFL shop dot com today for the 0:00:42.760 --> 0:00:47.920 largest assortment of officially licensed gear. NFL Shop is your 0:00:47.920 --> 0:00:52.000 destination for jerseys, t shirts, headwear and more. Oh yes, 0:00:52.080 --> 0:00:55.040 we come back after the game for the best selection 0:00:55.080 --> 0:01:00.400 of NFL gear anywhere. Rep your team pride with aisles 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:02.880 fit for the whole family. To shop now, go to 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:08.160 NFL shop dot com. Hi. I'm Robert sex Reese, host 0:01:08.200 --> 0:01:11.320 of The Doctor sex re Show, and every episode I 0:01:11.440 --> 0:01:14.480 listened to people talk about their sex and intimacy issues 0:01:14.520 --> 0:01:18.199 and yes I despise every minute of it, and she 0:01:18.200 --> 0:01:22.560 she made mistakes too everyone at her wedding. But hell 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:25.720 is real. We're all trapped here and there's nothing any 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:28.280 of us can do about it. So join me. Won't you? 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:31.440 Listen to the Doctor Sex re Show every Tuesday on 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:34.520 the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you 0:01:34.560 --> 0:01:37.520 get your podcast. Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:40.720 wanted to let you know. This is a compilation episode. 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:44.280 So every episode of the week that just happened is 0:01:44.319 --> 0:01:48.360 here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:50.320 for you to listen to in a long stretch if 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:52.720 you want. If you've been listening to the episodes every 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:54.880 day this week, there's gonna be nothing new here for you, 0:01:54.960 --> 0:02:01.600 But you can make your own decisions. Robert doing the 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:05.440 run so we can start the badcast. Um, I think 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:08.000 we should just start the podcast with you asking, Robert, 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:10.000 do you want to grunt? So we can start the podcast. 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:13.840 Um that that seems avant garde. I don't know what 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:15.919 I want guard means, but this is it could happen here, 0:02:16.360 --> 0:02:18.840 a podcast about how things are falling apart and how 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:21.240 maybe maybe they don't always need to be falling apart. 0:02:21.320 --> 0:02:23.640 Maybe we could do better. Uh. Speaking of doing better, 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:27.400 you know one thing that sometimes helps us do better 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:30.880 getting getting in the face of people fucking shut up 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:33.720 and being like, hey, that's not that's not cool. Don't 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:38.520 be doing that, Garrison, that's your leading. Take it from here. Yeah. Hi, 0:02:39.200 --> 0:02:43.440 So we I've been I've been trying to keep better, 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:49.200 a better job of like following ecological defense movements happening 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:51.760 both in the States and in other countries. I know 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:54.840 there was there was a big one up in Canada recently. 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:57.400 There was a huge one in Germany too, just the 0:02:57.400 --> 0:03:00.600 other day. Um, I know, the the one, the one 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:05.200 in Canada. There's a uh the uh, I forget, I 0:03:05.280 --> 0:03:10.120 forget what the actual indigenous group is called. Um maybe 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:15.240 maybe someone else. So the the um house on Sauti 0:03:16.280 --> 0:03:21.640 Um yeah, the people who who who took back their 0:03:21.760 --> 0:03:26.280 land and blocked the road off and now the to 0:03:26.600 --> 0:03:29.079 and the wet suit end. Oh yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, 0:03:29.240 --> 0:03:33.000 thank you. Um there we go. Yeah, basically taking their 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:35.080 land back, blocking off the road. And now our SAP 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:37.000 is getting called in and we'll see how that develops. 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:42.720 And in Guatemala there's protests against Canadian mining um in 0:03:43.200 --> 0:03:47.600 maya indigenous community that have have have gotten pretty heavily 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:50.760 militarized at this point. There's fun, there's a lot of stuff. 0:03:50.800 --> 0:03:54.280 There's a lot of stuff off on psychological defense side 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:58.160 of things, um, including including in you know, the Pacific 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:01.480 Northwest here with all of with all of the forests 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:06.040 and and as such in this area and part of 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:09.400 this kind of exploration into into ecological defense. I wanted 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:12.400 to talk with some people who are a little little 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:15.200 bit more well versed in this type of thing than 0:04:15.240 --> 0:04:19.279 I am. So I've there's the two people have agreed 0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:23.640 to talk with us, um salmon cat put both people 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:26.680 who work who work on the kind of thing from 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:32.520 like an activism standpoint. Um, Yeah, say hi, Hello, hey y'all. 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:35.760 So very very thankful that they are going to be 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:38.720 talking with us today. So I thought we could we 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:42.280 could probably just start by kind of discussing what forest 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:45.560 defense is and how it kind of has a history 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:48.360 specifically in this area, but but kind of more broadly, 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:51.120 like if if people listened to the Earth First episodes, 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:54.080 you know, that kind of that covered like anti pipeline stuff, 0:04:54.080 --> 0:04:56.839 but we didn't really get much into like forest defense, 0:04:57.120 --> 0:04:58.919 and you know, like the traditional like tree sits and 0:04:58.960 --> 0:05:02.520 that kind of thing. UM. So so yeah, what's what's 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:05.880 up with defending the forest? What's what's what's going on 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:10.800 with that? Um? Yeah, thanks for that great intro. UM. 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:14.200 I mean, forest defense is I think probably the most 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:17.800 characteristic UM type of direct action in this bioregion. And 0:05:17.839 --> 0:05:21.000 here we're talking from Cascadia right now. I actually moved 0:05:21.040 --> 0:05:23.359 out here from the East Coast ten years ago specifically 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:25.920 to get involved with forest defense because this place has 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:29.960 an incredibly rich history UM of people basically just throwing down, 0:05:30.200 --> 0:05:33.239 risking life and limb to stop jain saws from taking 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:37.120 down some of the oldest and most special forests out here. UM. 0:05:37.240 --> 0:05:40.119 And so i'd say, you know, for forest defense, direct 0:05:40.160 --> 0:05:42.360 action is in a lot of ways rooted right here 0:05:42.560 --> 0:05:47.000 UM in this bioregion. And obviously, UM, like all kinds 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:50.000 of movements, things have changed over the course of time. 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:53.720 UM back in the eighties. UM, when in seventies, when 0:05:53.760 --> 0:05:56.600 forest defense was really really kicking up and stopping old 0:05:56.640 --> 0:05:59.039 growth logging, specifically out here, when it was kind of 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:03.040 like rampant old growth UM clear cutting. UM, it really 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:06.880 took the shape of trying to focusing on ecology, focusing 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:10.159 on the integrity of these ecosystems and basically like doing 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:14.359 everything possible to stop the chainsaws. And Um, Now, obviously 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:17.080 a lot has changed. We have the Northwest Forest Plan 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:19.880 and some policies which are doing better to kind of 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:22.800 like protect old places and old forests. But at the 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:26.280 same time, the same ship is happening. Um. You know, 0:06:26.400 --> 0:06:30.120 the timber industry is great at using euphemisms to kind 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:34.160 of cover up it's clear cutting anyways, and finding policy 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:38.640 loopholes to target some incredible places. And now I think, um, 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:40.800 where we're at with like the direct action movement is 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:42.880 we're in the context of climate change, So we're not 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:45.480 just defending forests for the stake of these like incredible 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:49.839 ecological strongholds, but we're also defending them because we recognize 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:52.560 that forest defense is climate defense. This is a like 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:56.680 environmental justice issue, it's a human issue, it's a community issue. UM. 0:06:56.760 --> 0:07:00.279 And so now direct action I think, is you know, 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:01.920 happening not just the name of our forests, but in 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:04.520 the name of our communities in our future. UM. But 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:08.040 it's just as rich um now as it has ever been, 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:12.160 and especially right now and especially since which I know 0:07:12.200 --> 0:07:15.800 we'll get into people have been throwing down all over 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:19.520 this fire region to protect what's left of our forests. Yeah, 0:07:19.600 --> 0:07:21.240 and I think it's it's good to get into kind 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:24.800 of why how the fires have impacted this because one 0:07:24.800 --> 0:07:26.800 of the shady things that has been done is we 0:07:26.840 --> 0:07:29.040 had I think most people in the country are where 0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:33.720 Oregon had unprecedented wildfires this year, and we had unprecedented 0:07:33.760 --> 0:07:39.440 wildfires last year, and we're going to have unprecedented wildfires 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:42.840 every year for a while. Um And whenever these fires 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:45.640 run through, they don't like destroy every tree in their wake, 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:49.160 but they char them. And logging companies then come in 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:51.040 under the guise of like, well, we have to make 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:53.280 this area safe so that like the fires don't burn 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:54.920 here next year. So we've got to cut down all 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:58.600 of these trees, um and and clear cut this part 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:01.240 of area of public four. So, like, as you're driving 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:04.120 around in forests that you used to be able to 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:06.120 do stuff, and you'll find areas that are just like 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:09.880 blocked off because mining companies are coming or logging companies 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:11.800 are coming through and clear cutting all of these trees 0:08:11.840 --> 0:08:15.920 that could very easily recover from the fire, um or 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:17.760 that weren't even burned by it, but we're just like 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:19.560 in this area that they said, Okay, well we have 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:21.480 to clear this out in order to make it safe. 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:24.520 And it's kind of this way to like back door 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:29.280 and the guys of fire protection like expand logging. Yeah, 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:31.600 and just to add to that to the logging companies 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:34.800 love to say that the reasons we have increased wildfires 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:38.160 because there's an overgrowth in the forest because of the 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:41.240 Northwest Forest plant, because there's more protections for the forest. 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:44.920 Fires are happening worse because we're not getting there bogging 0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:48.480 the forest and removing all the fuel. M hm. So 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:50.640 we have like this two part thing that like Kat 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:53.160 just mentioned, where like, on the one hand, companies are like, 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:56.040 we need to log more to prevent wildfire, which is 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:58.240 bullshit and we can talk about why. And on the 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:00.600 other hand, after fires burned through an yeah, they're like, 0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:03.440 we need to log because we need to help the 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:06.840 forest recover ecologically. Also, we need to salvage all of 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:10.720 the timber before it rots and goes bad, and like 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:13.080 all of these reasons and so basically it's just like 0:09:13.320 --> 0:09:16.760 fire has become the excuse to just like log preemptively 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:19.960 and log after the fact, and yeah, it's a total 0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:22.160 total ship show. Yeah. I mean I think this this 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:26.960 kind of falls into capitalists trying to use climate change 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:30.000 is just another way to find things to extract and 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:32.280 things to grow on. Right, It's they're they're going to 0:09:32.360 --> 0:09:34.640 try to find their own way to sneak in when 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:38.199 all of this you know, ecological disaster is happening to 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:41.480 you know, sell you whatever green safe product is going 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:44.280 to help against the collapse, or you know, package things 0:09:44.320 --> 0:09:47.000 in a way that makes it seem like it's solving 0:09:47.040 --> 0:09:49.240 this you know problem, but it's actually it's part of 0:09:49.240 --> 0:09:54.520 it's part of the same thing industry from the yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Right, 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:56.560 it's it's you see this in every single industry, and 0:09:56.559 --> 0:09:58.360 it's always it's it's gonna be like this because this 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:01.720 is the only way that capitalism knows how to address 0:10:01.760 --> 0:10:05.120 this issue is by just turning it into another turning 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:07.920 it into another thing to consume, another thing to sell 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:12.319 in package. Pretty pretty grib yeah. And there's I mean, 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:16.640 there's cascading effects too, because they cut down these trees 0:10:17.160 --> 0:10:19.280 under the guise of making it safe for the next 0:10:19.320 --> 0:10:22.320 fire season, but which also makes a big chunk of 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:25.280 land a lot more vulnerable to like mud slides and 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:28.440 the torrential raining that we're having right now. Um, and 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:30.480 it's also going to get more common, because that's how 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:34.680 fucking climate change works. It's it's just like the comprehensive 0:10:34.720 --> 0:10:39.640 fury comprehensive. And let us be clear too, that logging 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:44.120 doesn't actually work to prevent wildfire, you know, even you know, 0:10:44.160 --> 0:10:46.440 they say that it does, but the kind of logging 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:49.040 that they do in the name of wildfire prevention just 0:10:49.120 --> 0:10:52.280 looks like clear cuts. And we have a pretty robust 0:10:52.360 --> 0:10:55.679 body of science now showing that those kinds of activities 0:10:55.720 --> 0:10:59.720 actually make fire hazard more severe for local communities. So 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:02.160 that's like one of the things they're doing. And we've 0:11:02.160 --> 0:11:05.280 been calling it just gaslighting, like they're gaslighting all of 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:07.600 us by saying, you know, there's nothing to see here, 0:11:07.600 --> 0:11:10.320 there's nothing to see here. We're taking care of you all, 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:12.600 you know, we're barely logging at all. And then we've 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:15.760 got community members on the ground, um, despite the closure 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:18.760 orders who are like, actually there's a lot to see here, 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:21.680 and you all are like completely devastating the landscape and 0:11:21.760 --> 0:11:27.320 further harming our communities. Um. So yeah, it's total gaslighting. Yeah, 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:30.160 an Oregon has both in terms of like watching fires 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:33.640 and watching logging some like rules that are not in 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:37.080 place in other areas, especially for like even for for 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:39.720 press and the like. Like it's it's actually hard to 0:11:39.760 --> 0:11:43.080 get in to look at this stuff, um without you know, 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:48.640 breaking some sort of law technically, which is not at 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:52.600 all shady. Um. Yeah, yeah, I feel like that's another 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:54.800 important thing. And maybe cat can jump onto is just 0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:58.880 um basically, I mean, I think what people aren't understanding 0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:03.480 is that after the fire, the these federal forest managers 0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:10.600 closed gates and essentially are converting public land into private 0:12:10.679 --> 0:12:13.920 land by you know, using the threat of violence to 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:16.720 kick people out if they go onto their public land. 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:21.520 And since and they say until at least the only 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:24.960 folks allowed behind these gates are cops and loggers. And 0:12:25.000 --> 0:12:27.920 so this is like literally, um, you know, the enclosure 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:30.880 of our public lands and like the privatization of our 0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:33.160 public lands so that cops and loggers can do whatever 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:37.360 the hell they want. Yep. And it's the kind of 0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:40.360 thing I mean, it's the kind of thing that people 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:44.240 if you're if you're if the if the Bundy's and 0:12:44.280 --> 0:12:46.720 that group actually meant the stuff they were saying, like 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:48.480 the rhetoric they were putting out, it's the kind of 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:50.560 thing they would be piste off about. Two, Because you're right, 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:54.600 it is the enclosure of public land by the government 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:59.320 UM and corporations without any kind of consent from the 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:02.400 people who are supposed to be the collective owners of 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:06.120 that land. It's it's a again something that a lot 0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:09.240 of people should be angry about, who aren't angry about 0:13:09.240 --> 0:13:11.880 because there's been this huge propaganda campaign in the Northwest 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:14.880 about timber unity and the like and like supporting the 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:20.280 timber industry UM by destroying like the single greatest gift 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:23.280 this entire part of the world has. Uh, it's it's 0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:28.120 pretty frustrating. Ye. Anyway, I have to we have to 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:30.080 actually have a quick break so I can go watch 0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:34.280 my soccer game at the Timber Stadium. Uh, completely unrelated. 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:38.040 So I'm gonna drive out to Wheeler, Oregon myself. But 0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:41.160 we all have different things to do during the break, um. 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:42.959 But also in the break, I guess we could probably 0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:45.440 do an AD break here because why not? All right, Yeah, 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:50.959 everybody loves ads and we're back still talking about force defense. 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:53.520 I wonder there's something that people should probably know before 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:56.160 we go further about the way that that Oregon works. 0:13:56.240 --> 0:13:58.600 So for a while, Oregon is a place where you 0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:02.079 can't get elected, um in a lot of parts of 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:05.720 a lot of populated parts of Oregon if you're a Republican. 0:14:06.120 --> 0:14:11.040 So the Republicans just plain ice um and and pretend 0:14:11.280 --> 0:14:13.840 and like throw out some some social justice e language 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:16.959 while while still doing all of the extract of stuff 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:19.280 they were going to do anyway. And that's the story 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:22.280 with like Ted Wheeler, um and his family. So Ted 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:25.479 Ted Wheeler, the mayor of Portland, comes from timber money. 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:27.920 His father was a major Republican donor. Not that the 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:30.600 Democrats don't have a lot of extractive history behind them, 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:32.640 but like it's it's very obvious what's happening with the 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:36.640 Wheelers where um, they were huge Republican donors and huge 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:39.880 backers of the right, and then Oregon had this kind 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:44.000 of switch politically, um, And so Ted Wheeler just started 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:47.160 throwing out nice social justicey language. But the the whole 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:49.240 you know, he's he's I'm sure going to make a 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:51.360 run for governor at some point in the near future. 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:59.360 And you've got this like this dressed up very extractive 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:03.920 logging industry and politicians that always find a way to 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:07.320 kind of make it seem palatable to the liberal majority. 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:09.880 Um that. And they've gotten pretty good at that because 0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:13.360 it doesn't I don't know, I think maybe we're coming 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:15.320 to the end of this period, but like I haven't, 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:18.480 I haven't seen up until this last year a lot 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:22.000 of widespread kind of outrage about the clear cutting um. 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:23.880 And they also hide it pretty well. Like if you're 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:28.440 driving through these beautiful public forests in Oregon, the areas 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:32.040 that are right along the road will generally be pristine 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:34.280 and you'll see old growth and everything. But sometimes you 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:36.320 can see as you like turn a corner or something 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:39.400 that like, oh, that old growth only goes back a 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:41.960 couple of couple of dozen yards and then it's a 0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:44.880 clear cut um and they'll they'll they'll hide it so 0:15:44.920 --> 0:15:46.720 that it's it's not as obvious because they know what 0:15:46.840 --> 0:15:51.160 upsets people. So there's this there's this kind of surprisingly 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:57.360 um surprisingly thorough campaign to do as much of this 0:15:57.400 --> 0:16:02.160 as possible without upsetting people UM which which means there's 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:04.680 a potential to upset people, which means there's a potential 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:08.040 to actually stop this if enough people get upset. But 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:10.960 it's you know, you're you're you're going against folks who 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:12.880 have thought a lot about how to do this in 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:15.480 a way that isn't going to upset the apple cart. 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:18.560 So how do you upset the apple cart? I guess 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:24.720 that is what I'm asking. Well, I think one way 0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:27.040 that we upset the apple cart is by bringing people 0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:29.560 out to these places. And you know, in the action 0:16:29.640 --> 0:16:33.080 that happened on Tuesday that looked like disrupting and disobeying 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:36.040 a federal closure order in order to bring people out 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:40.000 to these places. Um, you know, basically metaphorically walking behind 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:42.680 what you were describing the beauty strip along the highway 0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:46.200 and seeing what's behind it. Um. And you know, as 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:49.520 we were saying earlier, unfortunately, because of all these federal 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:53.240 closure orders after the fire, that looks like risking um, 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:57.960 you know, repercussion, state repression, arrest even um, in order 0:16:58.000 --> 0:16:59.720 to just lay eyes on it. But that is the 0:16:59.760 --> 0:17:02.560 way that we check the apple cart. We get people 0:17:02.680 --> 0:17:05.520 to see these places so that it cuts through the 0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:08.040 gas lighting that the industry is doing and people can 0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:11.920 literally viscerally feel and see the damage. Um. And there's 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:14.399 no way to convince them that that's okay. Once they 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:16.800 see it, and how do you do go about like 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:19.560 finding people to bring into this, convincing people to come 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:24.639 Like what does kind of that effort look like? You 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:26.040 want to answer this one cat, You did a ton 0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:29.920 of recruitment, Yeah, totally. Um. I think a big part 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:32.520 of it is getting them while they're young. UM. I 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:36.320 think that like young people right now are already pretty radicalized, 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:39.480 um compared to ten years or so, probably because of 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:41.760 I think George Floyd and Black Lives Matter and social 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:44.520 the use of social media and those movements. Um. So 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:47.879 I I am a college student and we're seeing like 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:50.119 so many people coming in and ready to throw down, 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:52.920 like they just cannot wait to get involved, and we'll 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:55.480 kind of just show up to anything. Um. So. I 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:58.560 think that that's like a major tactic for sure. UM. 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:00.800 And then also making sure it when you have like 0:18:00.840 --> 0:18:03.440 a an action that you're recruiting people for that it's 0:18:03.920 --> 0:18:06.840 I'm very easy to plug in. It's like very accessible, 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:10.680 um and kind of just like having it organized very 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:14.240 well so it's not daunting to come in. Do you 0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:16.359 want to add to that, Sam, Well, just to like 0:18:16.400 --> 0:18:18.159 share a little more about like how we did that 0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:22.679 with this particular action. That happened on Tuesday. UM. Basically, 0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:29.760 you know, we it was a Tuesday, brainy, freezing middle 0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:33.320 of the forest planning this action, did not think and 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:36.920 behind a federal closure order. So everyone on site risking 0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:40.480 arrest um and planning this action, it felt like we 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:43.040 would be lucky as ship if we got ten people 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:46.119 out there. UM. But I will say, UM, it was 0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:48.680 easy as ship to get fifty people out there. And 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:53.000 that's because people care. UM. And you know, I think 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:56.280 we did. In terms of organizing strategy, we use the 0:18:56.280 --> 0:18:59.280 affinity group model, and so we had a core you know, 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:02.359 there was a core group of organizers, and those organizers 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:05.560 recruited through affinity groups and their affinity groups and UM. 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:09.320 That helped to keep kind of information secure and UM, 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:12.800 you know, everything tightly organized. But UM, people want. People 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:16.439 were really desiring to get together and do something. Especially 0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:18.160 in the past couple of years of COVID, people are 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:21.960 just like eager to do something. UM. And on top 0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:24.400 of that, you know, we we promised that this isn't 0:19:24.480 --> 0:19:27.960 just an opportunity to potentially get arrested, but this is 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:31.720 an educational opportunity and a movement building opportunities. So while 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:34.359 the road was blocked with a slash pile and a 0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:38.400 fire truck. There were workshops going on, There were hikes 0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:41.240 going on in the forest that's supposed to be cut UM. 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:44.959 There was discussions about know your rights trainings and affinity groups. 0:19:45.040 --> 0:19:48.359 We had UM a band um playing on top of 0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:51.080 a fire truck, and there was a dance party and basically, 0:19:51.480 --> 0:19:55.320 you know, we're like building community and solidarity UM in 0:19:55.320 --> 0:19:58.920 a positive way while sucking shut up. I think that's 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:05.119 the key. And I mean, where do you uh, how 0:20:05.160 --> 0:20:07.679 do how do you have like what is the let 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:11.159 me think of a way to phrase this. What is 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:14.760 kind of the next step here because they haven't started 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:18.520 logging this area yet, but they're kind of doing like 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:21.679 the pre prep work. Um, what do you what do 0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:24.760 you think actually can be done to to halt it? 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:27.280 Like is it is it a problem? Like because it 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:28.879 seems to me that it's there's got to be like 0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:31.480 a mix of tactics there to actually get them to stop. 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:35.240 And you're dealing with a number of different UM threats, 0:20:35.280 --> 0:20:38.199 including not just at the state level, but these federal 0:20:38.240 --> 0:20:40.960 closure orders. Like what is I don't know what what 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:45.440 does the path forward look like to you? Yeah? So 0:20:45.520 --> 0:20:50.000 there's a preliminary injunction being forth by some nonprofits, and 0:20:50.040 --> 0:20:52.320 so this is a really good example of different tactics 0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:56.200 coming in and so UM, the preliminary injunction is basically 0:20:56.359 --> 0:20:58.800 to state that what they're doing before service is doing 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:02.439 is illegal. UM. But before that that can be passed, 0:21:02.480 --> 0:21:04.959 they can come in at any point and log the area. 0:21:05.119 --> 0:21:07.760 And so that's where direct action comes in to slow 0:21:07.800 --> 0:21:09.840 them down and halt them as much as possible until 0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:13.840 the courts can process that injunction. And that feels really 0:21:13.920 --> 0:21:16.800 huge to Like what Kat just said is like where 0:21:16.880 --> 0:21:19.800 is the place of direct action in forest defense? This 0:21:20.000 --> 0:21:23.360 is like the golden moment for direct action while there's 0:21:23.400 --> 0:21:25.520 like an open legal case that we're waiting on a 0:21:25.600 --> 0:21:28.160 judge to settle, and the timber industry is like coming 0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:30.560 in ready to moot out the case by logging before 0:21:30.560 --> 0:21:33.000 it can even be decided. And like to just add 0:21:33.040 --> 0:21:35.879 a little bit more backstory to on, like, another reason 0:21:35.880 --> 0:21:38.840 why people are so pissed about this um is that 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:43.400 you know, this watershed has been I think like beloved 0:21:43.440 --> 0:21:47.399 and also embattled since the eighties, Like the infamous Easter 0:21:47.560 --> 0:21:52.000 massacre logging event happened in the same watershed where could 0:21:52.119 --> 0:21:59.800 eye Yeah, no, totally um it. A timber company was 0:22:00.040 --> 0:22:03.800 planning to clear cut log old growth forest out there 0:22:03.960 --> 0:22:07.040 and started moving on it on Easter UM in the snow, 0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:11.560 and a bunch of badass direct action activists set up 0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:16.080 a five tiered blockade on a logging road to hold 0:22:16.080 --> 0:22:19.800 off the logging and successfully did for um days and 0:22:19.880 --> 0:22:22.000 days until a bunch of them, I think over a 0:22:22.040 --> 0:22:24.960 dozen folks got arrested, thrown in jail and the forest 0:22:25.000 --> 0:22:28.080 was clear cut. UM. So hence you know the Eastern 0:22:28.080 --> 0:22:32.199 massacre name UM. But a ton of folks who you 0:22:32.240 --> 0:22:34.720 know still work in force events in the spy A region. 0:22:34.720 --> 0:22:37.320 We're there and remember that story and we're with us 0:22:37.800 --> 0:22:40.920 um when we were out there this week telling that story. 0:22:41.000 --> 0:22:44.240 And you know since then, between and now, people have 0:22:44.359 --> 0:22:46.560 been showing up again and again and again in this 0:22:46.560 --> 0:22:48.760 watershed because it is so special to try and fight 0:22:48.800 --> 0:22:51.640 off logging, and myself and Cat have been a part 0:22:51.760 --> 0:22:55.480 of efforts over the past handful of years to um 0:22:55.480 --> 0:22:57.600 fight off a number of logging projects out there. We 0:22:57.600 --> 0:23:01.119 were successful in doing that. We actually snacked the forest 0:23:01.119 --> 0:23:03.560 services grubby hands off of a bunch of oil growth 0:23:03.600 --> 0:23:08.199 because our scrappy friends spent days exploring this watershed and 0:23:08.280 --> 0:23:13.320 documenting doing like site specific science, citizen science documentation and 0:23:13.359 --> 0:23:15.480 giving it to the Forest Service. And we fought them 0:23:15.520 --> 0:23:18.359 and one and protected a bunch of the forest. And 0:23:18.400 --> 0:23:21.040 then the fires came through and they closed the gates 0:23:21.119 --> 0:23:24.760 and they secretly changed all of these contracts to include 0:23:24.800 --> 0:23:27.240 clear cut logging. And so that is why there is 0:23:27.280 --> 0:23:30.240 an open lawsuit because we believe it's illegal what they're doing. 0:23:30.720 --> 0:23:33.600 It's sketchy and illegal, Yeah, but it does it does 0:23:33.680 --> 0:23:36.800 illustrate like kind of the depth of the fight necessary, 0:23:37.080 --> 0:23:39.639 not just in forest defense, but at all efforts of 0:23:39.720 --> 0:23:43.359 kind of resisting the extract of industries that are driving 0:23:43.400 --> 0:23:46.000 a lot of climate change. It's it's not enough, it's 0:23:46.040 --> 0:23:48.320 never enough to win the first victory. They're going to 0:23:48.440 --> 0:23:51.280 find some way to to to swoop around to the 0:23:51.280 --> 0:23:53.119 flanks and try to take it away from you, like 0:23:53.160 --> 0:23:57.359 they're doing right now. Um, which is exhausting. Um, it 0:23:57.400 --> 0:24:03.560 seems exhausting, but it doesn't mean it. You can ignore it. 0:24:03.560 --> 0:24:06.840 It's fucking exhausting. Yeah. I always say it's like our forests, 0:24:06.920 --> 0:24:10.600 our federal management agencies, they suffer from this powerful amnesia 0:24:10.640 --> 0:24:12.680 where they just like keep coming back with the same 0:24:12.720 --> 0:24:16.320 bullshit proposals, but like our movement does not suffer from that, 0:24:16.440 --> 0:24:19.160 and we are just like building power and getting stronger 0:24:19.200 --> 0:24:23.720 and getting more successful. So like when people left on Tuesday, UM, 0:24:23.760 --> 0:24:25.840 there was a promise that people will be back if 0:24:25.920 --> 0:24:28.480 logging happens, and we're very sure that that would be 0:24:28.520 --> 0:24:33.280 the case. And if if people are in the Cascadian 0:24:33.280 --> 0:24:37.920 bioregion and are like, well this sounds pretty sweet. I wanna, 0:24:38.080 --> 0:24:42.040 I wanna, I wanna keep keep some trees where they 0:24:42.040 --> 0:24:44.240 are as opposed to putting them on the back of 0:24:44.240 --> 0:24:48.200 a truck to drive somewhere else. How could they get involved? 0:24:48.240 --> 0:24:54.000 Where where might they reach out to? Well, there's a 0:24:54.040 --> 0:24:56.520 few different groups who were a part of this, UM 0:24:56.560 --> 0:25:02.239 definitely UM, the Portland Rising Tide, Cascadia Forest Defenders, UM 0:25:02.359 --> 0:25:05.480 CAT can talk about Climate Justice League and UM maybe 0:25:05.560 --> 0:25:07.439 the action that you all put on yesterday as a 0:25:07.440 --> 0:25:09.399 follow up, and like how folks can get involved with 0:25:09.440 --> 0:25:12.439 that UM But basically, yeah, you can follow us on Twitter, 0:25:12.920 --> 0:25:15.840 UM and Instagram and and please, UM, you know, keep 0:25:15.880 --> 0:25:17.960 a lookout because we will be we'll be getting it 0:25:18.000 --> 0:25:20.160 out far and wide. If there's a call for folks 0:25:20.240 --> 0:25:25.080 to get out there again. Yeah, and Climate Justice League 0:25:25.160 --> 0:25:28.679 is an organ UM at the University of Oregon and 0:25:29.200 --> 0:25:32.440 people are free to just join the organization. Community members 0:25:32.440 --> 0:25:35.399 are also involved. UM. But we did put on an 0:25:35.400 --> 0:25:39.720 event yesterday where Tyler Ferres of Ferris Logging or First 0:25:39.760 --> 0:25:44.320 Timber UM, who is actually the company that bought the 0:25:44.480 --> 0:25:46.919 rights to Brighton Bush, which was the area where we 0:25:47.000 --> 0:25:50.320 did UM the action on Tuesday, he was giving a 0:25:50.400 --> 0:25:53.399 speech at the University of Oregon UM to talk about 0:25:53.400 --> 0:25:56.399 post fire logging, which was just like crazy timing. They 0:25:56.480 --> 0:25:58.600 kind of just like put it in our lap, and 0:25:58.640 --> 0:26:00.879 so we recruited from that action or like let's just 0:26:00.960 --> 0:26:04.119 drop the hell out of this UM talk, and so 0:26:04.240 --> 0:26:06.399 we like showed up and kind of tried to sneak in. 0:26:06.760 --> 0:26:09.840 They were having zoom issues, which like luckily distracted them 0:26:09.840 --> 0:26:12.480 from the fact that there was like forty or fifty 0:26:12.520 --> 0:26:16.600 like pretty punk anarchy looking kids in the room. UM. 0:26:16.640 --> 0:26:18.920 But we like let him go on for a little 0:26:18.920 --> 0:26:21.560 bit and then we started to ask him questions that 0:26:21.600 --> 0:26:24.320 he obviously didn't know the answer to. UM. We kept 0:26:24.359 --> 0:26:27.240 like asking questions about you know, the science says this, 0:26:27.320 --> 0:26:29.760 but you're stating this where you getting your science from. 0:26:29.800 --> 0:26:31.600 And he kept saying things like, well, that's more of 0:26:31.600 --> 0:26:34.919 a political question and the statistics don't really back up 0:26:34.960 --> 0:26:38.360 what you're saying, um. And then yeah, we just chanted 0:26:38.480 --> 0:26:41.679 and made him really nervous. Yeah. And as a heads up, 0:26:41.720 --> 0:26:43.679 if you're if you're looking to win an argument on 0:26:43.680 --> 0:26:46.480 a zoom call, you can just say, uh, the statistics 0:26:46.480 --> 0:26:49.400 don't back you up without citing statistics. It's it's it's 0:26:49.440 --> 0:26:52.280 really the easiest way to do that. I guess it'll 0:26:52.359 --> 0:26:55.160 kind of curious for like you guys said, you've you've 0:26:55.160 --> 0:26:57.840 prevented you know, some of the stuff in the past 0:26:57.920 --> 0:27:03.400 by doing stuff like documentation, um. And you know when 0:27:03.560 --> 0:27:06.240 when when that kind of thing becomes not enough. You 0:27:06.280 --> 0:27:09.639 know that this this area does have a rich history 0:27:09.720 --> 0:27:13.919 of kind of direct action stuff to protect forests with 0:27:14.040 --> 0:27:16.320 a get also like a mixed success, like by no 0:27:16.480 --> 0:27:19.800 means does direct action always always work to do anything? 0:27:19.880 --> 0:27:22.320 Right now, we still have the line three pipeline, we 0:27:22.359 --> 0:27:24.280 still have all of these things that direct action has 0:27:24.320 --> 0:27:27.000 tried to prevent. But it turns out a lot of 0:27:27.160 --> 0:27:29.400 the kind of direct action that's associated with these types 0:27:29.400 --> 0:27:33.800 of like ecological things is kind of more performative than 0:27:33.840 --> 0:27:36.159 anything else, you know, like it is kind of like 0:27:36.200 --> 0:27:40.159 a tree set is about gaining media media like publicity, 0:27:40.200 --> 0:27:43.280 because they're gonna get you down right like eventually, and 0:27:43.320 --> 0:27:46.320 it's and it's and it's gonna be painful because like 0:27:46.560 --> 0:27:48.600 you're not going to be sitting up there for years 0:27:48.640 --> 0:27:51.240 to to to to to to prevent the treat from 0:27:51.280 --> 0:27:54.479 being logged. So how close do you think we are 0:27:54.520 --> 0:27:57.080 into to like reaching that kind of territory like it 0:27:57.160 --> 0:27:59.320 was in like the nineties and eighties where it is 0:27:59.359 --> 0:28:01.160 like a lot of lot of people like blocking off 0:28:01.240 --> 0:28:04.280 roads and doing and doing that kind of thing. You know, 0:28:04.560 --> 0:28:07.040 more like you know what what it crosses into that 0:28:07.080 --> 0:28:09.160 it's more like autonomous. It's not it's not like led 0:28:09.200 --> 0:28:11.560 by a single organization by any means. See, it's more 0:28:11.600 --> 0:28:14.640 it's more decentralized. But did you see that kind of 0:28:15.440 --> 0:28:18.679 happening soon? And you know, how, how how do you 0:28:18.720 --> 0:28:22.240 think we can balance out direct action with like other 0:28:22.359 --> 0:28:25.520 like thoughtful means of trying to draw attention to these 0:28:25.560 --> 0:28:28.280 things and maybe actually and and other things like actually 0:28:28.280 --> 0:28:34.080 physically physically preventing the logging of certain areas. That's such 0:28:34.119 --> 0:28:37.480 a good question And UM, I'm really thankful that we're 0:28:37.520 --> 0:28:40.920 talking about strategy because um, kind of, like I mentioned, 0:28:40.920 --> 0:28:43.160 I moved out here like ten years ago to do 0:28:43.320 --> 0:28:46.320 forest defense work and have seen so many instances in 0:28:46.320 --> 0:28:48.200 where people are trying to do direct action in a 0:28:48.360 --> 0:28:50.880 in a time and space where it doesn't make sense, UM, 0:28:50.880 --> 0:28:53.560 where it's like basically slated too. It's going to lose 0:28:53.760 --> 0:28:56.719 because it's just impossible too. As you said, you know, 0:28:57.120 --> 0:28:59.840 hold this blockade for weeks and weeks and weeks and 0:28:59.880 --> 0:29:03.360 the snow um indefinitely, you know, as we you know, 0:29:03.400 --> 0:29:05.560 as they continue to try to log indefinitely. So there's 0:29:05.560 --> 0:29:08.640 definitely a sweet spot for where um, the sort of 0:29:08.720 --> 0:29:11.200 kind of the sort of direct action that we're talking about, 0:29:11.680 --> 0:29:15.640 like blockading, where that is most useful. And that sweet 0:29:15.680 --> 0:29:19.920 spot is definitely when there is another decisive move, like 0:29:19.960 --> 0:29:23.920 another like legal victory that's waiting in the wings or um. 0:29:23.960 --> 0:29:25.960 You know, we won one in Washington without a legal 0:29:26.000 --> 0:29:28.479 victory because we shamed the ship out of the Department 0:29:28.520 --> 0:29:31.200 of Natural Resources in the Seattle Times and they were 0:29:31.240 --> 0:29:34.600 like WHOA, We're sorry, um, And so direct action held 0:29:34.600 --> 0:29:37.320 off something until we were able to sufficiently shame them 0:29:37.520 --> 0:29:40.920 and deter them, but typically they don't shame well, um 0:29:41.000 --> 0:29:44.760 and so typically, um, you know, we need illegal there 0:29:44.800 --> 0:29:47.560 needs to be a legal element um backing it up. 0:29:47.560 --> 0:29:50.280 So direct action is a time buyer. But that said, 0:29:50.400 --> 0:29:53.800 like obviously, blockading things is not the only type of 0:29:53.800 --> 0:29:56.040 direct action, and part of the rich history of force 0:29:56.080 --> 0:29:58.440 events in the Spire region is other kinds of more 0:29:59.000 --> 0:30:02.200 um necess fairly you know, discrete kinds of direct action 0:30:02.320 --> 0:30:05.880 that obviously you know, I'm um not a part of 0:30:05.920 --> 0:30:08.760 speaking on this radio show, but um, what would publicly, 0:30:09.240 --> 0:30:11.960 um you know say like those things probably need to happen, 0:30:12.360 --> 0:30:14.600 and I hope they have what what what? What I 0:30:14.600 --> 0:30:17.560 could say is that I've I've seen these things happening 0:30:17.560 --> 0:30:20.680 in other places, like in like in the Atlanta Defending 0:30:20.840 --> 0:30:24.680 Forest movement right now, I have I I have seen 0:30:24.760 --> 0:30:28.880 evidence that individuals not associated with any group are putting 0:30:28.880 --> 0:30:30.640 spikes and trees, and that is that is that is 0:30:30.720 --> 0:30:33.680 something that is happening, right, And all that takes is 0:30:33.880 --> 0:30:36.040 one person, right, It's that's not like a group of 0:30:36.040 --> 0:30:38.840 twenty people going into the forest to do that. That's 0:30:38.920 --> 0:30:41.800 the one person in an afternoon, right. So those are 0:30:41.800 --> 0:30:44.600 the types of like single person direct actions, which again, yeah, 0:30:44.720 --> 0:30:47.000 any type of direct action is going to be scary, 0:30:47.120 --> 0:30:50.440 right You're you're once you start doing that, that is 0:30:50.520 --> 0:30:52.600 you know, that introduces certain things that will is is 0:30:52.640 --> 0:30:54.880 kind of is kind of more frightening to you as 0:30:54.880 --> 0:30:58.560 a person. Um. But but it's it is something that 0:30:58.640 --> 0:31:01.600 is happening in other places, is um. And it has 0:31:01.640 --> 0:31:04.640 showed to at the very least upset the people who 0:31:04.720 --> 0:31:07.800 are wanting logging to happen. Generally, they're not thrilled when 0:31:07.840 --> 0:31:13.160 they when they find when when they find these things um. Yeah, yeah, 0:31:13.200 --> 0:31:15.000 because like it's like it's I mean, I think like 0:31:15.040 --> 0:31:18.040 when it comes down to it, it's like about knowing 0:31:18.280 --> 0:31:21.520 what your goal is with this tactic. Like on you know, 0:31:21.800 --> 0:31:25.480 in in the action that happened this past week, there 0:31:25.560 --> 0:31:29.320 was an understanding that the goal was to you know, 0:31:29.440 --> 0:31:31.800 shine a light on this thing that's happening in secrecy, 0:31:32.160 --> 0:31:36.280 shame the Forest Service, and build movement movement building so 0:31:36.320 --> 0:31:39.600 that we're ready when people need to throw down for 0:31:39.680 --> 0:31:42.680 real and and and that might happen soon. We weren't 0:31:42.760 --> 0:31:45.840 trying to hold the space for weeks and weeks and weeks. Um. 0:31:45.840 --> 0:31:47.640 That wasn't the goal. So like going in being like, 0:31:47.920 --> 0:31:49.360 what kind of an action are we trying to do? 0:31:49.440 --> 0:31:50.640 What are we trying to complish? Are we trying to 0:31:50.680 --> 0:31:53.360 be decisive? Are we trying to like shape the conditions 0:31:53.360 --> 0:31:56.000 necessary for success and like culture build, or were trying 0:31:56.040 --> 0:31:57.760 like what are we actually trying to do? And then 0:31:57.840 --> 0:32:01.080 like coming away with that, having having that clear having 0:32:01.720 --> 0:32:04.280 a clear sense of that beforehand, I think really really 0:32:04.360 --> 0:32:08.880 is crucial because I've definitely observed direct actions where that 0:32:09.000 --> 0:32:11.400 is not the case, and people have not thought those 0:32:11.440 --> 0:32:15.240 things through and it becomes the kind of unfun version 0:32:15.320 --> 0:32:19.280 of chaos, um where you know, things, things don't really 0:32:19.320 --> 0:32:21.160 get done, and you're just kind of sitting around and 0:32:21.200 --> 0:32:23.600 everyone's kind of slightly miserable because again you're in a 0:32:23.600 --> 0:32:26.760 freezing forest, um, and no one really knows what the 0:32:26.800 --> 0:32:29.800 hell they're doing. Um. So definitely having those kind of 0:32:29.800 --> 0:32:34.920 things thoughts through beforehand is extremely useful when you're deciding 0:32:34.960 --> 0:32:39.720 to trudge your way into some cold, dark woods. Yeah, 0:32:39.760 --> 0:32:42.719 we're going for a chaotic good, not chaotic evil. Yeah, well, 0:32:42.960 --> 0:32:45.200 a little bit of chaotic. Well, it depends, it depends 0:32:45.200 --> 0:32:47.960 what it depends what we mean by evil evil evil 0:32:48.000 --> 0:32:52.520 to some people, we we yeah, anyway, Um, and any 0:32:52.520 --> 0:32:55.720 other kind of historical notes on forest defense or any 0:32:55.720 --> 0:32:58.840 other kind of random, random tidbits you like to mention 0:32:58.920 --> 0:33:02.160 before before we close out. The one thing that I 0:33:02.160 --> 0:33:04.640 feel like it's super important to say to people is 0:33:04.680 --> 0:33:10.720 that forest defense is not just about protecting forests. It's 0:33:10.720 --> 0:33:15.120 about protecting all of us. We know now like forest defenses, 0:33:15.120 --> 0:33:19.000 climate defense. Our forests are our best natural tool for 0:33:19.120 --> 0:33:22.440 fighting climate change. And also like we need them here. 0:33:22.880 --> 0:33:25.800 Most of Oregon get their drinking water from forest and 0:33:25.840 --> 0:33:28.680 water sheds, like they literally are sustaining all of us. 0:33:28.680 --> 0:33:31.000 And so yeah, we hope folks join, like not just 0:33:31.080 --> 0:33:34.200 for the sake of like being you know, hippie tree huggers, 0:33:34.240 --> 0:33:36.320 even though you know some of us are, but also 0:33:36.440 --> 0:33:40.080 because like we need to survive as a people and 0:33:40.120 --> 0:33:42.640 as a planet, and um forests our best way to 0:33:42.640 --> 0:33:45.320 do that. It's it's the cheapest most advanced form of 0:33:45.360 --> 0:33:49.320 carbon capture we have yet. So yeah, it seems seems 0:33:49.400 --> 0:33:52.960 kind of asinine to chop that all down to build 0:33:52.960 --> 0:34:07.840 some shitty sheds. M hmm, all right, well that's a Swede. Hi. 0:34:07.920 --> 0:34:10.360 I'm Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're the 0:34:10.400 --> 0:34:13.160 hosts of the science podcast Stuff to Blow Your Mind, 0:34:13.360 --> 0:34:15.319 where every week we get to explore some of the 0:34:15.400 --> 0:34:19.279 weirdest questions in the universe, like if sci fi teleportation 0:34:19.440 --> 0:34:22.239 was possible, how would it square with the multitudes of 0:34:22.360 --> 0:34:25.600 organisms that inhabit our human bodies? Can we find evidence 0:34:25.640 --> 0:34:29.839 of emotions in animals like bees, ants, and crayfish? How 0:34:29.840 --> 0:34:34.680 would an interplanetary civilization function just free will exist? Stuff 0:34:34.760 --> 0:34:40.520 to Blow Your Mind examines neurological quandaries, cosmic mysteries, evolutionary marvels, 0:34:40.680 --> 0:34:43.560 and the wonders of techno history. Basically, this show is 0:34:43.600 --> 0:34:46.960 the altar where we worship the weirdness of reality. If 0:34:47.000 --> 0:34:50.520 anybody ever told you you ask the weirdest questions, it 0:34:50.640 --> 0:34:52.600 is time to come join us in the place where 0:34:52.640 --> 0:34:56.040 you belong. The Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast new 0:34:56.040 --> 0:34:59.640 episodes publish every Tuesday and Thursday, with bonus episodes on 0:34:59.680 --> 0:35:02.040 sat Listen to Stuff to Blow Your Mind on the 0:35:02.080 --> 0:35:05.160 I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get 0:35:05.200 --> 0:35:10.440 your podcasts. After thirty years, it's time to return to 0:35:10.520 --> 0:35:12.799 the halls of West Beverly High and hang out at 0:35:12.840 --> 0:35:15.279 the peach pit. On the podcast nine O two one 0:35:15.360 --> 0:35:18.880 OMG joined Jenny Garth and Tori Spelling for a rewatch 0:35:18.880 --> 0:35:21.560 of the hit series Beverly Hills nine O two one oh. 0:35:21.600 --> 0:35:24.720 From the very beginning, we get to tell the fans 0:35:24.920 --> 0:35:27.560 all of the behind the scenes stories to actually happen, 0:35:27.719 --> 0:35:30.520 so they know what happened on camera, obviously, but we 0:35:30.560 --> 0:35:33.160 can tell them all the good stuff that happened off camera. 0:35:33.239 --> 0:35:36.040 Get all the juicy details of every episode that you've 0:35:36.080 --> 0:35:38.520 been wondering about for decades. As nine O two one 0:35:38.600 --> 0:35:41.680 oh super fan and radio host Sissany sits in with 0:35:41.800 --> 0:35:45.400 Jenny and Tory, two reminisce, reflect and relive each moment, 0:35:45.480 --> 0:35:49.440 from Brandon and Kelly's first kiss to shouting Donna Martin graduates, 0:35:49.680 --> 0:35:53.600 you have an amazing memory. You remember everything about the 0:35:53.719 --> 0:35:56.359 entire ten years that we filmed that show, and you 0:35:56.560 --> 0:35:59.680 remember absolutely nothing of the ten years that we film 0:36:00.120 --> 0:36:03.239 that show. Listen to nine O two one OMG on 0:36:03.280 --> 0:36:05.920 the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 0:36:05.960 --> 0:36:11.520 get your podcasts. I'm Jake Halbern, host of Deep Cover. 0:36:11.840 --> 0:36:14.239 Our new season is about a lawyer who helped the 0:36:14.360 --> 0:36:19.320 mob run Chicago. We controlled the courts, we controlled absolutely everything. 0:36:20.120 --> 0:36:22.879 He bribed judges and even helped a hit man walk 0:36:23.000 --> 0:36:26.120 free until one day when he started talking with the 0:36:26.200 --> 0:36:29.520 FBI and promised that he could take the mob down. 0:36:30.239 --> 0:36:32.399 I've spent the past year trying to figure out why 0:36:32.440 --> 0:36:35.799 he flipped and what he was really after. From my perspective, 0:36:35.960 --> 0:36:38.080 Bob was too good to be true. There's got to 0:36:38.120 --> 0:36:40.839 be something wrong with this. I wouldn't trust the guy. 0:36:41.120 --> 0:36:44.080 He looks like a little scum, big layer, stool pidging. 0:36:44.120 --> 0:36:46.399 He looked like what he was or at. I can 0:36:46.440 --> 0:36:49.000 say with all certainty I think he's a hero because 0:36:49.040 --> 0:36:50.600 he didn't have to do what he did, and he 0:36:50.600 --> 0:36:53.080 did it anyway. The moment I put the wire around 0:36:53.120 --> 0:36:56.319 the first time, my life was over. If it ever 0:36:56.400 --> 0:36:59.680 got out, they would kill me in a heartbeat. Listen 0:36:59.719 --> 0:37:02.680 to the cover on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 0:37:02.760 --> 0:37:16.359 or wherever you get your podcasts. It's it could Happen here, 0:37:16.640 --> 0:37:21.440 the podcast that occasionally has ads from Washington State Highway Patrol. 0:37:21.600 --> 0:37:24.560 On a completely unrelated note, Garrison, you want to talk 0:37:24.600 --> 0:37:28.360 about the Washington State Highway Patrol today, I sure would 0:37:28.360 --> 0:37:31.319 love to talk about our our good friends at the 0:37:31.320 --> 0:37:36.560 Washington State Patrol um because yeah, they just they've've they've 0:37:36.600 --> 0:37:39.080 come up on my radar in a in an unrelated matter, 0:37:39.600 --> 0:37:42.160 and now we're gonna talking about So now we're talking 0:37:42.160 --> 0:37:44.239 about them. Yeah, so this is the show about things 0:37:44.280 --> 0:37:47.560 falling apart and kind of part of societal and political 0:37:47.600 --> 0:37:52.120 stuff kind of crumbling. Usually that gets related to some 0:37:52.160 --> 0:37:55.719 type of law enforcement agency more often than not. And uh, 0:37:56.000 --> 0:37:59.239 in terms of like tensions rising in stuff, there's a 0:37:59.239 --> 0:38:02.600 lot of you know, force gets force gets exerted via 0:38:02.719 --> 0:38:06.120 law enforcement and uh, one such law enforcement Yeah. Well, 0:38:06.120 --> 0:38:08.840 and one such agency that does this is called the 0:38:08.880 --> 0:38:15.080 Washington State Patrol. UM. So they were I I don't know, 0:38:15.160 --> 0:38:19.200 I I just discovered them recently. UM. So they were 0:38:19.200 --> 0:38:22.520 founded exactly one hundred years ago. UM. And they were 0:38:22.520 --> 0:38:26.600 originally called the Washington State Highway Patrol UM. Now they're 0:38:26.640 --> 0:38:28.759 just the Washington State Patrol. They were moved Highway, but 0:38:28.760 --> 0:38:32.000 they still do the same thing. They're basically glorified traffic 0:38:32.080 --> 0:38:38.239 cops um who operate all around all around Washington State. UM. 0:38:38.280 --> 0:38:40.920 And we're gonna talk about some of the ways that 0:38:41.600 --> 0:38:46.600 they've been making things worse within the past decade. UM. 0:38:46.640 --> 0:38:48.839 I'm since they have a one hundred year history, I'm 0:38:48.840 --> 0:38:52.440 sure we can find lots of historical examples. UM, but 0:38:52.640 --> 0:38:54.960 we're we're gonna we're gonna do stuff that's more that 0:38:55.120 --> 0:38:57.759 is more recent, because this is you know, generally trying 0:38:57.800 --> 0:39:02.560 to keep things around the current, the current crumbling. Um. 0:39:02.600 --> 0:39:05.640 And because we're gonna talk about police, the first the 0:39:05.680 --> 0:39:08.800 first thing we're gonna be discussing, oddly enough, is a 0:39:08.920 --> 0:39:13.799 racism um because I know, Um, when you think of 0:39:13.840 --> 0:39:16.879 Washington State Patrol, that's you know, it's it's kind of 0:39:17.000 --> 0:39:20.840 shocking that they might have a race issue. Um. So, Anyway, 0:39:21.520 --> 0:39:25.440 twelve years ago, researchers working with working with Washington State 0:39:25.480 --> 0:39:29.160 Patrol found that troopers were searching drivers from minority communities, 0:39:29.160 --> 0:39:34.200 particularly um local Native American tribes, at a much higher 0:39:34.280 --> 0:39:38.520 rate than than white people. And they recommend an additional study, 0:39:38.800 --> 0:39:43.319 which the Washington State Patrol declined to UH to investigate further. 0:39:43.760 --> 0:39:49.480 They they're like, no, um, no, no more studies. So meanwhile, 0:39:49.640 --> 0:39:52.160 since then, the troopers have continued to continue to search 0:39:52.280 --> 0:39:54.920 Native Americans at a at a rate much higher more 0:39:54.960 --> 0:39:57.960 than five times than that of of of white people 0:39:58.040 --> 0:40:02.400 in the area. Yeah, so but there are five times 0:40:02.440 --> 0:40:05.960 as the popular there, there's five times as many Indigenous 0:40:06.000 --> 0:40:08.640 people in Washington as white people right there, there's not. 0:40:09.560 --> 0:40:16.120 Oh yeah, ok. So an analysis by Investigate West showed 0:40:16.120 --> 0:40:19.080 that the Patrol continued to do searches at a much 0:40:19.360 --> 0:40:24.120 elevated rates for for black people, Latino, Pacific Islanders, and 0:40:24.200 --> 0:40:28.840 natives within Washington State. UM. And yet when when troopers 0:40:28.880 --> 0:40:32.040 did decide to search white motorists, they were more likely 0:40:32.120 --> 0:40:35.680 to find drugs in contraband. UM. Which is something to 0:40:35.680 --> 0:40:38.160 Washington State Patrol actually acknowledges is that when when they 0:40:38.239 --> 0:40:41.719 search people of minority communities, they are less likely to 0:40:41.760 --> 0:40:45.759 find to find illegal things. Yeah. I mean that's yeah 0:40:45.840 --> 0:40:52.640 nationwide and very very robust data. So UM, government records 0:40:52.640 --> 0:40:57.840 obtained via like from information requests and various other you 0:40:57.880 --> 0:41:02.799 know of public records searches UM also show that there 0:41:03.000 --> 0:41:05.720 there there is a state law that Washington State Patrol 0:41:05.760 --> 0:41:08.680 is supposed to collect and report semi annually to the 0:41:08.719 --> 0:41:12.480 Criminal Justice Training Commission in Washington. UM about you know, 0:41:12.600 --> 0:41:15.120 race and ethnicity data of motorists is tapped by troopers. 0:41:15.520 --> 0:41:18.600 But uh so this is supposed supposed happen semi annually, 0:41:18.640 --> 0:41:21.640 but the agency report of those findings only three times 0:41:21.640 --> 0:41:26.120 in the past fifteen years. Which isn't sounds kind of 0:41:26.120 --> 0:41:29.000 like the Portland police not doing the things that federally 0:41:29.000 --> 0:41:33.439 they're supposed to do because they're so violent. Yeah, being 0:41:33.440 --> 0:41:36.040 out of compliance with a bunch of federal rags three 0:41:36.120 --> 0:41:39.360 three times, three times in fifteen years is not semi annually. 0:41:39.920 --> 0:41:42.520 Based on what I know, the term semi annually to 0:41:43.160 --> 0:41:49.399 semi decade. So yeah, UM based on responses for over 0:41:49.480 --> 0:41:53.160 thirty public records requests UM from from three different agencies 0:41:53.280 --> 0:41:55.759 looking looking at Washington State Patrol and more than like 0:41:55.800 --> 0:41:58.880 fifty interviews with current and formal law enforcement officials and 0:41:59.080 --> 0:42:02.120 people with experience in interacting with Washington State Patrol UM 0:42:02.280 --> 0:42:04.839 and also data from millions of traffic stops that all 0:42:04.880 --> 0:42:07.600 this was looked at in total, examined about eight million 0:42:07.640 --> 0:42:10.520 traffic stops from two US and nine to US in fifteen. 0:42:10.560 --> 0:42:13.080 This is what Investigate West was doing UM, which was 0:42:13.120 --> 0:42:15.759 which was the most recent data available, and the analysis 0:42:15.760 --> 0:42:19.480 found that UH it focused on twenty incidents of what 0:42:19.560 --> 0:42:23.120 researchers called like high discretion searches. That's when troopers had 0:42:23.120 --> 0:42:25.920 the most like personal leeway to decide whether or not 0:42:26.040 --> 0:42:29.240 to pull over and search a vehicle. UM. Black drivers 0:42:29.239 --> 0:42:31.120 were twice as likely to be searched as white drivers, 0:42:31.320 --> 0:42:34.239 and Latino specific calendars were eight percent more likely to 0:42:34.239 --> 0:42:38.080 be searched. Of of these incidents where officers had discretion 0:42:38.200 --> 0:42:39.799 and like they could choose whether or not to pull 0:42:39.800 --> 0:42:42.120 someone over. Um, so it wasn't like it wasn't like 0:42:42.160 --> 0:42:44.359 they were like obviously speeding or doing you know, like 0:42:44.360 --> 0:42:48.320 like you know, like like regular like actually observable traffic violations. 0:42:48.320 --> 0:42:50.880 This is when like people could choose when they investigate. 0:42:50.920 --> 0:42:54.080 West thing got published, they contact Washington State Patrol and 0:42:54.120 --> 0:42:59.080 the spokesperson said that, uh, here's here's here's the quote 0:42:59.400 --> 0:43:02.120 that Ray Sprace was not the only factor when troopers 0:43:02.120 --> 0:43:05.800 decided whom to search, and that's partially because blacks, Native 0:43:05.800 --> 0:43:08.239 Americans and Latinos are more more more likely to be 0:43:08.280 --> 0:43:12.440 searched regardless of how much discretion troopers have, which that 0:43:12.480 --> 0:43:15.359 doesn't really make very much sense. Um, I don't know 0:43:15.520 --> 0:43:20.279 what person, I don't know. What they mean is they're 0:43:20.320 --> 0:43:27.040 more likely to be searching regardless what the who was 0:43:27.239 --> 0:43:32.000 that bad checking the copy? Which is weird because later 0:43:32.040 --> 0:43:37.719 on the spokesperson said that, um, we're same guy, we're 0:43:37.719 --> 0:43:40.160 in the Basically we're agrees that we're in a basic 0:43:40.239 --> 0:43:42.440 agreement that minorities are searched at higher rates, but we 0:43:42.560 --> 0:43:49.160 find less contraband so um. And he also he also 0:43:49.200 --> 0:43:52.719 noted that complaints about like a racial bias encounted for 0:43:52.920 --> 0:43:56.080 little more than ten percent of all complaints of the 0:43:56.120 --> 0:44:01.319 state patrol filed last year. So I guess he thinks 0:44:01.360 --> 0:44:07.080 that's a good He thinks that's a good stat Yeah, yeah, um. 0:44:07.160 --> 0:44:11.279 And another kind of not great thing is that uh. 0:44:11.520 --> 0:44:13.919 The analysis found that not only are Native Americans more 0:44:13.920 --> 0:44:16.560 likely to be searched, but all of the most of 0:44:16.560 --> 0:44:20.879 those searches happen always that like the edges of reservations UM. 0:44:20.920 --> 0:44:23.880 The analysis found that the two highest concentration of searches 0:44:23.920 --> 0:44:26.759 in Native Americans by state troopers are on the US 0:44:26.880 --> 0:44:31.960 nineties seven, where it encounters um a reservation at ol 0:44:32.040 --> 0:44:35.200 Mac about about a mile from its intersection at a 0:44:35.360 --> 0:44:38.520 state wrote one fifty five, which is and more than 0:44:38.600 --> 0:44:41.840 one thirty miles south of of the same when the 0:44:41.840 --> 0:44:46.719 same highway enters another reservation. So nearly one third of 0:44:46.920 --> 0:44:49.839 high discretions of high discretion searches. So when troopers can 0:44:49.880 --> 0:44:52.440 decide whether or not to pull someone over like like 0:44:52.800 --> 0:44:55.359 they they they have more discretion whether they can. So 0:44:55.840 --> 0:44:58.279 one third of those happened on these two stretches of 0:44:58.360 --> 0:45:01.600 highway right on the edges of these reservations, Like they're 0:45:01.640 --> 0:45:06.200 patrolling outside these reservations to specifically do this. Um there 0:45:06.280 --> 0:45:08.840 was I saw an interview on this topic that we 0:45:08.960 --> 0:45:11.640 talked that talked to Native Americans in this area and 0:45:11.640 --> 0:45:13.759 they're like, yeah, every time we leave the reservation, we 0:45:13.800 --> 0:45:15.839 get pulled over. But then we watched tons of white 0:45:15.840 --> 0:45:17.960 motorists go by and no one cares, like and like 0:45:18.000 --> 0:45:20.440 and they're like you're doing like they're just speeding by, 0:45:21.120 --> 0:45:25.440 it doesn't matter. Um so yeah, that is. That is 0:45:25.480 --> 0:45:30.480 the first first you know, unsurprising tidbit about Uh, some 0:45:30.680 --> 0:45:33.040 an organization who started as a highway patrol is, yeah, 0:45:33.080 --> 0:45:36.440 they're gonna pull people over who are not white more often. 0:45:36.560 --> 0:45:42.440 That is that's pretty not not super shocko yeah, and 0:45:42.440 --> 0:45:47.160 then makes a public statement like l o O yeah 0:45:47.280 --> 0:45:49.279 yeah that that does. That does sound a lot like 0:45:49.320 --> 0:45:54.520 with the Washington State Patrol. Uh sounds like, um so 0:45:54.800 --> 0:45:57.399 we're gonna So that that was that was the first 0:45:57.440 --> 0:46:00.960 obvious thing. Uh. This next her it's a little bit 0:46:00.960 --> 0:46:04.560 more fun. Um so in in two thousand nine, the 0:46:04.600 --> 0:46:08.840 Washington State Patrol made made the decision to fire eight troopers, 0:46:08.880 --> 0:46:12.600 which is you know, pretty pretty rare um And the 0:46:12.640 --> 0:46:16.040 reason why they got fired is because they used fake 0:46:16.440 --> 0:46:21.239 diplomas to claim pay raises. Yeah, so there was there 0:46:21.320 --> 0:46:24.640 was this whole scheme about getting fake diplomas to get 0:46:24.680 --> 0:46:28.560 the troopers more money, like like like individual people that 0:46:28.719 --> 0:46:32.080 there's this whole, this whole operation going on. It resulted 0:46:32.120 --> 0:46:34.040 in the in in eight in eight people getting fired. 0:46:34.400 --> 0:46:37.680 So troopers can can boost their pay about two percent 0:46:37.760 --> 0:46:40.120 by earning a two a two year degree or four 0:46:40.160 --> 0:46:42.640 percent with a four year degree. And there was this 0:46:42.719 --> 0:46:46.080 group of of a troopers who just uh started just 0:46:46.160 --> 0:46:53.759 forging diplomas see Garrison. This is a separate conversation. But 0:46:53.800 --> 0:46:55.880 they didn't need to forge diplomas. They could have just 0:46:55.960 --> 0:47:01.279 become doctors of of of of magic, like like that's 0:47:01.320 --> 0:47:05.719 what I've tried to do religious PhD. Yeah. So there's 0:47:05.719 --> 0:47:08.839 all sorts of fake diploma mills come on Washington State 0:47:08.960 --> 0:47:17.440 Highway Patrol. This this is pretty funny. So so the 0:47:17.480 --> 0:47:21.440 investigation began after federal agents shut down a diploma mill 0:47:21.520 --> 0:47:25.680 in the Spokane. Criminal charges were not filed, but the 0:47:25.680 --> 0:47:29.480 Patrol to decide to fire these eight troopers. Yeah, so 0:47:29.520 --> 0:47:31.840 that is one of the more funny things we'll be 0:47:31.880 --> 0:47:34.000 talking about today. And I think it's time for an 0:47:34.000 --> 0:47:38.320 ad break. So yeah, speaking of funny, here's these ads 0:47:38.400 --> 0:47:40.600 that may or may not be the people we're talking about. 0:47:41.040 --> 0:47:48.880 Rob No unrelated, unrelated. Uh We're back, which is also unrelated. Yeah. 0:47:48.920 --> 0:47:52.040 Another thing that's putting pretty common around police is that 0:47:52.480 --> 0:47:55.880 the past few years, they generally don't think COVID is 0:47:55.920 --> 0:47:59.240 really real or that it is the past few years. 0:47:59.280 --> 0:48:08.000 Now that Robert, we're less than a month away from two. Yeah, 0:48:08.080 --> 0:48:11.640 I hate that. It's like it's it's like it's almost two. 0:48:11.800 --> 0:48:14.640 Almost ten percent of your entire life has been COVID. 0:48:14.920 --> 0:48:19.080 I'm not going to think about math um. So generally 0:48:19.080 --> 0:48:21.480 they don't think COVID is real. And also they think 0:48:21.600 --> 0:48:25.120 vaccines are the mark of Satan or something. Well obviously 0:48:25.160 --> 0:48:28.560 they are. But yeah, so in in in mid October 0:48:29.000 --> 0:48:32.719 this this past October, Washington Tate Patrol announced that one 0:48:32.800 --> 0:48:36.120 hundred and twenty seven of its employees lost their job 0:48:36.680 --> 0:48:41.120 after the state's COVID nineteen vaccine mandate deadline of October eighteen. 0:48:41.480 --> 0:48:44.839 So unlike the Portland Police Bureau who who the port 0:48:44.920 --> 0:48:47.960 who port and many other cities where city officials caved 0:48:48.080 --> 0:48:51.440 to the demands of the police that vaccine mandates not 0:48:51.480 --> 0:48:54.719 be not be extended towards police, Uh, this did not 0:48:54.760 --> 0:48:57.799 happen in Washington and they actually got it enforced. So 0:48:58.160 --> 0:49:02.600 over a hundred UH patrol employees quit quit their job, 0:49:02.680 --> 0:49:07.120 including a sixty four commissioned officers. It was like six 0:49:07.200 --> 0:49:12.800 sixty seven troopers, six sergeants and one captain. Um. Yeah, 0:49:12.920 --> 0:49:16.200 So you know, Washington State Patrol has about two thousand 0:49:16.360 --> 0:49:20.960 personnel within like between like eight districts. Um. So losing 0:49:21.000 --> 0:49:23.680 like a hundred and twenty seven of them is not 0:49:23.760 --> 0:49:28.359 a it's not an insignificant loss. Um. And it's it's 0:49:28.360 --> 0:49:30.960 been a it's it has been been trying to hire 0:49:31.040 --> 0:49:33.560 a lot more people in the in the past. In 0:49:33.600 --> 0:49:36.200 the past like a few months, because of this, they've 0:49:36.200 --> 0:49:38.080 been they've been trying to do a lot more recruitment, 0:49:38.080 --> 0:49:40.600 which is why they're Um. I've heard from other people 0:49:40.960 --> 0:49:44.000 that they are putting uh advertisements out on the internet 0:49:44.160 --> 0:49:47.719 to become a Washington State trooper. This is something I've 0:49:47.840 --> 0:49:50.759 I've heard from from people online when I've been doing 0:49:50.800 --> 0:49:55.520 all of this uh deep deep extensive research. So yeah, 0:49:55.600 --> 0:49:58.480 they are, they are, they are recruiting. Uh So, if 0:49:58.520 --> 0:50:02.640 you uh want to be h Washington Patrol officer, don't don't. 0:50:02.640 --> 0:50:07.400 Actually that's a bad idea. Um, don't do that. Yeah, 0:50:07.400 --> 0:50:10.160 I mean us act. You want to like really funk 0:50:10.200 --> 0:50:12.960 with people who live on a reservation if that's if 0:50:12.960 --> 0:50:16.680 that's your goal, it's Washington State Highway Patrol is your 0:50:16.719 --> 0:50:19.080 your dream career? Or have another option for you. You 0:50:19.560 --> 0:50:22.600 could also just get COVID and die. Well, yeah, that 0:50:22.680 --> 0:50:24.920 is an option. That's an option to thing I think 0:50:25.040 --> 0:50:28.400 might be freedom is what makes this nation great. Uh 0:50:28.480 --> 0:50:34.200 so I think you know of the choice. Anyway, continue Harrison. 0:50:34.480 --> 0:50:37.919 I'm gonna send a picture inside our group chat first 0:50:37.960 --> 0:50:40.680 because we're gonna were gonna be talking about one one 0:50:41.000 --> 0:50:44.600 specific evil dude. Next, I'm setting a picture in the 0:50:44.600 --> 0:50:46.240 group chat that I want you to look at first, 0:50:46.320 --> 0:50:48.560 just so you get a sense of who we're talking about. 0:50:48.920 --> 0:50:54.880 Oh based, okay, I'm I'm excited. Yeah all right. Oh no, 0:50:55.760 --> 0:51:00.439 oh no, the boat I really brings it all together. 0:51:00.880 --> 0:51:04.160 Oh no, you said bow tie, which does not make 0:51:04.239 --> 0:51:11.799 me optimistic. Robert no, but is wrong with it? Who? Yeah, 0:51:12.120 --> 0:51:14.960 who puts a bow tie on a uniform? Like, guys, 0:51:15.080 --> 0:51:19.080 I found a better quality image. Um, good god, there 0:51:19.120 --> 0:51:21.320 we go, the same image better He looks like Tucker 0:51:21.440 --> 0:51:25.120 Carlson and the Starship Troopers universe when he gets drafted. 0:51:25.600 --> 0:51:28.440 So this is the next guy we're talking about. Um, 0:51:28.520 --> 0:51:31.600 somehow feels like I hate crime towards the Weasley family. 0:51:32.760 --> 0:51:35.440 So yeah, it feels like a hate crime towards the 0:51:35.520 --> 0:51:40.160 guy based off Tucker Carlson in Starship Troopers. So this 0:51:40.239 --> 0:51:43.960 would be a big fan of ron Ron Weasley's family. 0:51:44.000 --> 0:51:48.320 This this is This is Sean carr Um, a former 0:51:48.400 --> 0:51:55.400 Washington State Patrol a sergeant um who resigned for reasons. 0:51:55.400 --> 0:52:02.280 We will discuss fun. That's exciting. Yeah yeah anyway. Um. 0:52:02.320 --> 0:52:05.400 So in twos and fifteen and Associated Press investigation uncovered 0:52:05.400 --> 0:52:08.080 about a thousand officers in the United States who lost 0:52:08.080 --> 0:52:10.720 their badges over a six year period for sex crimes 0:52:10.840 --> 0:52:13.480 or misconduct such as like, uh, this is this is 0:52:13.480 --> 0:52:16.120 a quote here which I disagree with framing here, but 0:52:16.160 --> 0:52:20.080 this is this is a quote propositioning citizens or having 0:52:20.160 --> 0:52:26.880 consensual but prohibited on duty intercourse, which is uh, pretty bullshit. 0:52:26.920 --> 0:52:30.040 Way to frame that because basically you're it's it's police 0:52:30.160 --> 0:52:34.120 raping people. M and police officers being accused of like 0:52:34.239 --> 0:52:38.600 using their power over people to rape them is extremely common. Yeah, 0:52:38.600 --> 0:52:40.880 and it's often just like yeah, well the person said okay, 0:52:40.920 --> 0:52:42.800 And it's like, well they said okay to a person 0:52:43.000 --> 0:52:45.880 with a gun in the legal power to murder anyone 0:52:45.920 --> 0:52:48.560 they want or put them into jail. Like like there's 0:52:48.560 --> 0:52:50.719 a lot of scent. Yeah, you know, I would argue 0:52:50.800 --> 0:52:54.880 you can't consent, uh to sex with a police officer 0:52:54.920 --> 0:52:58.279 who's on duty in a uniform because it's they have 0:52:58.280 --> 0:53:00.920 the power to murder anybody they want or who just 0:53:01.040 --> 0:53:03.120 arrest you. Like, like, it's a lot of stuff. So 0:53:03.200 --> 0:53:05.160 like there was a studied at least a few years 0:53:05.200 --> 0:53:08.600 ago that an analyzed data of like a five hundred 0:53:08.640 --> 0:53:11.359 and fifty arrest cases from the years of two US 0:53:11.360 --> 0:53:13.040 and five, two US and seven just this is just 0:53:13.120 --> 0:53:17.320 two years and uh and a four hundred officers employed 0:53:17.360 --> 0:53:20.680 by like three d and twenty non non federal law 0:53:20.760 --> 0:53:25.239 enforcement agencies located throughout a forty three states. Um and 0:53:25.320 --> 0:53:29.400 findings indicated that a police sexual misconduct includes a serious 0:53:29.440 --> 0:53:32.239 forms of sex with related crimes and the victims of 0:53:32.280 --> 0:53:36.480 sex related crimes by police are typically younger than eighteen 0:53:36.560 --> 0:53:40.880 years old. UM, so it's it happens a lot with miners. 0:53:41.000 --> 0:53:44.359 So there's a lot like like more like a ridiculously 0:53:44.440 --> 0:53:46.719 common like if you if you google is which I 0:53:46.760 --> 0:53:49.960 honestly don't recommend, but you can find like dozens of 0:53:50.040 --> 0:53:54.600 stories coming out like basically every like not you'll find 0:53:54.600 --> 0:53:57.560 at least one new story every month of a kid 0:53:57.640 --> 0:54:02.040 getting raped by police. It happened pretty commonly. So over 0:54:02.080 --> 0:54:04.879 the past ten years in the Washington State Patrol, they've 0:54:04.920 --> 0:54:09.000 investigated and confirmed four cases of what they call sex 0:54:09.160 --> 0:54:12.440 on duty um according to the agency. And this is 0:54:12.520 --> 0:54:19.120 including including Shawn Carr now Sean Car's cases particularly sensitive 0:54:19.120 --> 0:54:23.640 for the agency because he was married to the uh 0:54:23.680 --> 0:54:27.759 the daughter of the Washington State Patrol chief UM and 0:54:27.760 --> 0:54:31.080 and Shaun Carr was also himself a sergeant, so he 0:54:31.160 --> 0:54:34.120 was connected to like the big leagues at the Washington 0:54:34.120 --> 0:54:38.240 State Patrol. So Car met a civilian woman who also 0:54:38.360 --> 0:54:40.319 works at Washington State Patrol but as like you know, 0:54:40.360 --> 0:54:42.799 like has like an office job, so they isn't isn't 0:54:42.800 --> 0:54:45.920 a trooper. Um. They met in twelve and struck up 0:54:45.920 --> 0:54:49.319 an online friendship, and a few months later they both 0:54:49.320 --> 0:54:52.400 of them told investigators that the relationship did turn sexual. 0:54:52.960 --> 0:54:56.680 Um Car admitted to six sexual encounters for the next 0:54:56.719 --> 0:54:58.759 like five years with the woman, of five of which 0:54:58.760 --> 0:55:00.799 happened when he was on duty and like on state 0:55:00.840 --> 0:55:04.319 property or driving a vehicle or while in uniform. UM 0:55:04.360 --> 0:55:06.719 but the woman recalled as many as as twenty and 0:55:06.760 --> 0:55:08.200 all but one of them were when he was on 0:55:08.280 --> 0:55:11.560 duty and well. And so the woman said that most 0:55:11.560 --> 0:55:14.719 of their encounters were were what she would describe as consensual, 0:55:15.360 --> 0:55:20.160 but she described three incidents where Car did uh pushed 0:55:20.440 --> 0:55:23.960 the boundary and she she she has described being raped 0:55:24.000 --> 0:55:28.200 by him multiple times. UM, so there was there was 0:55:28.400 --> 0:55:31.120 an incident. I think the first one happened in the 0:55:31.120 --> 0:55:36.200 beginning of UH with inside his patrol car in a 0:55:36.280 --> 0:55:39.520 church parking lot. UH. The woman had recently started dating 0:55:39.520 --> 0:55:42.359 another man, and Carr wanted to know who it was. 0:55:42.480 --> 0:55:46.399 When she wouldn't say so, he uh he grabbed her 0:55:46.480 --> 0:55:49.279 arm hard enough to leave bruises, and the woman said 0:55:49.320 --> 0:55:51.520 that Car made her pick from two options, give up 0:55:51.560 --> 0:55:54.200 the name of the man or give Car oral sex. 0:55:54.400 --> 0:55:59.440 Um Car later told investigators that he said this in 0:55:59.440 --> 0:56:03.920 a quote joking context. Oh that's you know, I was thinking, 0:56:04.000 --> 0:56:07.279 because that's almost exactly my my tight five for my 0:56:07.320 --> 0:56:11.239 stand up set. I mean, some some comedians for some 0:56:11.280 --> 0:56:14.600 reason do like making jokes like that and not not 0:56:14.600 --> 0:56:17.160 not great usually not great to normalize that kind of thing. 0:56:17.560 --> 0:56:20.759 So um. The woman said that she did like like 0:56:20.880 --> 0:56:24.719 s his his like commands and she's which she said, 0:56:24.719 --> 0:56:27.799 we're like very much not done consent. Yeah, and she 0:56:27.800 --> 0:56:30.279 said it's very much not consensual. Um. She she told 0:56:30.320 --> 0:56:33.560 investigators that he raped me on the side of the road. Um. 0:56:33.600 --> 0:56:35.960 And if and if it was anyone else besides car, 0:56:36.280 --> 0:56:38.239 she she she she said she would have called nine 0:56:38.280 --> 0:56:43.640 one one. Um. So the second time happened when a 0:56:43.680 --> 0:56:45.920 car backed her into a corner of a highway away 0:56:45.960 --> 0:56:48.520 station and forced her to have sex with him. Um. 0:56:48.600 --> 0:56:52.160 She called it a coerced Car said that consent was mutual. 0:56:52.840 --> 0:56:57.480 So despite the sexual assaults, uh, and and and like 0:56:57.560 --> 0:56:59.520 and you know and and like assaults you know, like 0:56:59.719 --> 0:57:01.920 you know, crapping someone's army hard to believe a bruise, 0:57:02.600 --> 0:57:04.480 she said. The woman said she kept in touch with 0:57:04.560 --> 0:57:06.920 Car because she was going through a difficult time in 0:57:06.920 --> 0:57:11.400 her life and she needed somebody to talk to. Complicated, 0:57:11.480 --> 0:57:14.200 that's yeah, that this is even like people who are 0:57:14.239 --> 0:57:18.000 imbutive can also be emotionally supportive sometimes, Like that's one 0:57:18.000 --> 0:57:20.920 of the things about abuse. That's such a real, real motherfucker. 0:57:21.600 --> 0:57:24.040 It's not simple. So yeah, Car Car may not have 0:57:24.040 --> 0:57:26.760 gotten in trouble had the woman not confided in another 0:57:26.840 --> 0:57:30.440 patrol employee after she left her job. UM. Then the 0:57:30.480 --> 0:57:34.400 other other patrol employee mentioned the situation to someone higher up, 0:57:34.440 --> 0:57:37.960 triggering an investigation. UM. And then in twenty nineteen, the 0:57:38.000 --> 0:57:41.440 woman formally reported Car to uh TO to like the 0:57:41.520 --> 0:57:45.120 patrol Office of Professional Standards. So records store that the 0:57:45.120 --> 0:57:48.240 patrol of pretty quickly confiscated cars, badge, and gun and 0:57:48.240 --> 0:57:51.280 placed him on home assignment, where he remained until he 0:57:51.440 --> 0:57:56.160 and he resigned voluntarily. UM. The patrol gave gave the 0:57:56.200 --> 0:57:58.680 case to the Sheriff's office to investigate because of the 0:57:58.720 --> 0:58:03.720 criminal nature of the allegations. So Car's personal file includes 0:58:03.720 --> 0:58:06.880 other on job violations, including using a taser on a 0:58:06.960 --> 0:58:10.960 drunk driving suspect. He was handcuffed, and records show that 0:58:11.000 --> 0:58:16.200 in February, Car was accused of frequenting a coffee stand 0:58:16.560 --> 0:58:20.000 and making unwanted advances on an employee by waiting near 0:58:20.040 --> 0:58:23.560 her car until her shift ended and making derogatory comments 0:58:23.560 --> 0:58:28.960 about her boyfriend. UM. So she was also stalking this barista, 0:58:29.240 --> 0:58:33.600 is what it sounds like. Um? Yeah, yeah, that's that 0:58:33.760 --> 0:58:39.640 is what that sounds like. Terrifying. So yeah, so car 0:58:40.560 --> 0:58:45.640 after the woman told investigators that she was raped after UM, 0:58:46.720 --> 0:58:49.600 the the county sheriffes recommended hard to be filed. But 0:58:49.720 --> 0:58:53.320 she wasn't willing to. Um. She wasn't willing to testify. 0:58:53.440 --> 0:58:54.800 She did not want to. She did not want to 0:58:54.800 --> 0:58:58.000 do that. Um. But but she she didn't tell prosecutors 0:58:58.000 --> 0:59:01.040 that she did have one wish that that car again, 0:59:01.200 --> 0:59:03.800 the son in law of the state patrol chief be 0:59:03.960 --> 0:59:07.600 be not not allowed to police again. UM. Yeah, that's 0:59:07.600 --> 0:59:11.600 a pretty reasonable request. Car of obviously denied all the 0:59:11.640 --> 0:59:16.160 accusations of non consensual sex and assault, but you know, 0:59:16.840 --> 0:59:20.600 it did admit to a to a consensual sexual relationship 0:59:20.720 --> 0:59:23.440 on duty um, as well as other you know, like 0:59:23.840 --> 0:59:31.400 patrol regulation violations. UM. He he resigned in July before 0:59:31.440 --> 0:59:34.640 the patrol could decide whether or not to fire him. Um. 0:59:34.760 --> 0:59:36.920 And then the state went about trying to strip him 0:59:36.960 --> 0:59:39.720 of his law enforcement cert of occasion requirement to carry 0:59:39.760 --> 0:59:42.440 a gun and badge and be hired as law enforcement 0:59:42.720 --> 0:59:47.000 in Washington. Getting de certified forms conduct by the Criminal 0:59:47.040 --> 0:59:51.240 Justice Training Center in Washington is very hard. Very few 0:59:51.240 --> 0:59:57.160 people have actually been decertified. Yeah, And to to be certified, 0:59:57.200 --> 0:59:59.360 the panel must be a panel must be convinced that 1:00:00.080 --> 1:00:04.400 on duty behavior rose to the level of official misconduct 1:00:04.440 --> 1:00:08.520 and constituted a crime committed under the color of authority 1:00:08.680 --> 1:00:11.920 as a peace officer. That's the that's the color of 1:00:11.960 --> 1:00:17.520 authorities an interesting way to phrase that. Cars attorneys argued 1:00:17.560 --> 1:00:19.640 that the state failed to make to meet this high 1:00:19.640 --> 1:00:24.600 bar and there was quote no legal basis to decertified car. Meanwhile, 1:00:24.720 --> 1:00:27.960 the c j a t S the Criminal Justice Training 1:00:27.960 --> 1:00:31.760 Center alleged his behavior did constitute official misconduct and failure 1:00:31.880 --> 1:00:36.040 of duty, but without actually they didn't actually include the 1:00:36.080 --> 1:00:40.440 sexual assault allegations. Instead, it contended that he used state 1:00:40.480 --> 1:00:43.680 resources for his own benefit or neglected to do his 1:00:43.800 --> 1:00:47.600 duties when he was engaged in sexual activity on duty, 1:00:47.640 --> 1:00:51.440 So they didn't actually include sexual assault or anything in this. 1:00:51.520 --> 1:00:55.320 They just said you were basically like you were because 1:00:55.320 --> 1:00:58.840 you were doing because you were having like sexual activity 1:00:58.920 --> 1:01:01.040 on duty. You weren't doing your job and that's the 1:01:01.080 --> 1:01:04.520 reason that we want to decertify you. Um. So the 1:01:04.800 --> 1:01:07.360 date of Washington has about eleven thousand certified officers at 1:01:07.360 --> 1:01:10.200 any given time UM and since to us in three 1:01:10.520 --> 1:01:14.680 they've decertified like two hundred and thirty and at least 1:01:14.680 --> 1:01:16.920 four of them for on duty sex and one of 1:01:16.960 --> 1:01:21.680 those cases was overturned on appeal um. But in one 1:01:21.840 --> 1:01:25.040 around mid May, the c j TC in its final 1:01:25.160 --> 1:01:29.760 order said that Cars constituted UH crimes of of failure 1:01:29.800 --> 1:01:33.760 of duty and official misconduct by, among other things, quote, 1:01:33.800 --> 1:01:37.440 intentionally choosing to pursue his own sexual gratification rather than 1:01:37.520 --> 1:01:40.320 using his on duty time to perform his lawful responsibilities 1:01:40.360 --> 1:01:43.920 as a peace officer. So he he did get decertified, 1:01:43.960 --> 1:01:49.800 but again not actually discussing the actual like assaults and rapes. Um. Yeah. 1:01:50.960 --> 1:01:56.840 So the the the sheriff County Prosecutor's office designed declined 1:01:56.880 --> 1:01:59.520 to pursue charges on the case last year when the 1:01:59.520 --> 1:02:04.320 woman was willing to testify, but the deputy prosecuting attorney 1:02:04.480 --> 1:02:08.040 UM did say that she she believed they just happened, 1:02:08.280 --> 1:02:10.320 like like she she believes this that the stuff happened, 1:02:10.600 --> 1:02:12.600 but because of the lack of evidence due to time 1:02:13.080 --> 1:02:16.320 passing and the woman not wanting to testify. There it's 1:02:16.360 --> 1:02:19.040 hard to prove guilt in court, so they're not going 1:02:19.080 --> 1:02:24.440 to pursue these charges at the moment. Yeah. So that 1:02:24.440 --> 1:02:26.840 that is UH, that is Shawn car So that yeah, 1:02:26.880 --> 1:02:30.440 he is not not not allowed to police as of 1:02:32.320 --> 1:02:35.480 That is a cursory glance at stuff in the Washington 1:02:35.480 --> 1:02:37.200 State Patrol. Oh, I guess one of the one other 1:02:37.240 --> 1:02:40.600 thing I found out today is that so Washington State 1:02:40.880 --> 1:02:46.440 Patrol has a has a psychologist for UM recruitings. Basically 1:02:46.440 --> 1:02:48.640 for if you want to join the patrol, you have 1:02:48.720 --> 1:02:52.280 to go like through like a psychological screening. Sure, that 1:02:52.360 --> 1:02:56.600 makes sense. And he just just resigned because he was 1:02:56.640 --> 1:02:59.520 he was he was probably going to get fired. Um. 1:02:59.680 --> 1:03:03.400 This is after Stale Times and Public Radio Northwest News 1:03:03.480 --> 1:03:10.560 Network UH published a peace show showing that since UH 1:03:10.720 --> 1:03:16.400 the psychological screenings rejected where is it? UH rejected of 1:03:16.440 --> 1:03:20.840 white candidates over the past four years. Um, but the 1:03:20.920 --> 1:03:26.040 psychologists that they hired h rejected of black candidates, of 1:03:26.080 --> 1:03:29.680 Hispanic candidates, and forty one percent of Asian candidates. So again, 1:03:29.720 --> 1:03:33.320 I'm not pro people being police in general, but there 1:03:33.440 --> 1:03:37.080 is a clear disparity on who they are wanting to 1:03:37.200 --> 1:03:40.040 become police, like who like who are they They're letting 1:03:40.040 --> 1:03:43.000 in a lot more white candidates than they are letting 1:03:43.240 --> 1:03:48.120 in candidates of color. Um so this this uh, this 1:03:48.240 --> 1:03:50.880 psychologist screener is is no longer on the job as 1:03:50.920 --> 1:03:55.000 of like a few days ago. Um. Yeah, so just 1:03:55.200 --> 1:03:59.080 another another level of stuff because yeah, you know, there's 1:03:59.560 --> 1:04:02.919 they want there to be more white officers than anything else. 1:04:03.280 --> 1:04:07.400 Um so yeah, that is that is the Washington State Patrol. 1:04:07.440 --> 1:04:08.720 I guess the one other thing I want to do 1:04:08.960 --> 1:04:11.800 is I'm gonna again send in the group chat. Their 1:04:11.960 --> 1:04:19.360 their current logo, their current logo current you're smirking. I 1:04:19.400 --> 1:04:22.480 hate it when you do this. I'm afraid. I don't know, 1:04:22.520 --> 1:04:26.280 soph Maybe it'll be fine. It's actually it's it's it's 1:04:26.320 --> 1:04:30.920 kind of fun. That's their logo. That is their current logo. 1:04:32.080 --> 1:04:38.320 They design it in like paint, Yes, they probably they 1:04:38.360 --> 1:04:42.000 probably did design it in MS paint. Oh man, Yeah, 1:04:42.040 --> 1:04:45.080 that that looks like it belongs in an angel Fire website. 1:04:45.120 --> 1:04:47.240 Gar So do you know what angel Fire was not? 1:04:47.920 --> 1:04:52.120 Oh my god, you fucking teenagers. Um yeah, that looks 1:04:52.200 --> 1:04:54.840 like it belongs in an angel I will I will 1:04:54.920 --> 1:04:57.200 let all of the other people who feel very old 1:04:57.320 --> 1:04:59.520 right now know that it looks like something you'd see 1:04:59.520 --> 1:05:03.480 in an angel Fire website. Like shittlely animated blinking across 1:05:03.520 --> 1:05:06.520 the screen. No, like it looks like something from a 1:05:06.640 --> 1:05:10.680 ninety nineties website. All right, well, now I'm both angry 1:05:10.680 --> 1:05:13.000 about the police and I feel a thousand years old. 1:05:13.080 --> 1:05:16.240 So this is good? What a good? What a good? 1:05:16.480 --> 1:05:19.680 What a good feeling? Well that that wraps that. That 1:05:19.680 --> 1:05:23.360 wraps it up for today. Um and hey again, I 1:05:23.920 --> 1:05:25.800 have heard that they are recruiting and they should have 1:05:25.840 --> 1:05:30.040 a new psychological screener soon. So great, there we go. 1:05:30.480 --> 1:05:34.680 I'm imagining the primary psychological screening is you're white, right, 1:05:35.480 --> 1:05:38.440 that's that's that is what it used to be. I mean, 1:05:38.480 --> 1:05:41.800 I'm imagining that's what it's going to be. Still probably 1:05:42.800 --> 1:05:46.439 maybe not. All right, Well, this has been a great time. 1:05:46.600 --> 1:05:52.080 I'm sure everybody's feeling good. Uh, goodbye, get out of 1:05:52.120 --> 1:06:01.520 my house. A chain of teens from foster care is 1:06:01.520 --> 1:06:03.880 a topic not enough people know about, and we're here 1:06:03.920 --> 1:06:06.439 to change that. I'm April Denuity, host of the new 1:06:06.480 --> 1:06:10.800 podcast Navigating Adoption, presented by adopt us Kids. Each episode 1:06:10.880 --> 1:06:14.160 brings you compelling, real life adoption stories told by the 1:06:14.200 --> 1:06:17.680 families that lived them, with commentary from experts. Visit adopt 1:06:17.760 --> 1:06:21.640 us Kids dot org, slash podcast, or subscribe to Navigating Adoption, 1:06:21.720 --> 1:06:24.520 presented by adopt us Kids, brought to you by the U. 1:06:24.600 --> 1:06:27.240 S Department of Health and Human Services, Administration for Children 1:06:27.240 --> 1:06:32.160 and Families, and the Council. Here's to the great American settlers. 1:06:32.880 --> 1:06:36.960 The millions of you has settled for unsatisfying jobs because 1:06:37.000 --> 1:06:40.120 they pay the bills, and you just kind of fell 1:06:40.160 --> 1:06:44.680 into it, and you know, it's like totally fine, just 1:06:44.800 --> 1:06:48.400 another few decades or so and then you can enjoy yourself. 1:06:49.160 --> 1:06:52.240 Of course, there is something else you could do. If 1:06:52.280 --> 1:06:55.720 you've got something to say. You could, I don't know, 1:06:56.000 --> 1:07:00.439 startup podcast with speaker from my heart and east your 1:07:00.480 --> 1:07:04.640 creative freedom and spend all day researching and talking about 1:07:04.720 --> 1:07:08.320 stuff you love and maybe even earn enough money to 1:07:08.440 --> 1:07:12.160 one day tell your irritating boss as you quit and 1:07:12.240 --> 1:07:17.400 walk off into the sunset. Hey, I'm no settler. I'm 1:07:17.440 --> 1:07:23.800 an explorer spreaker dot com. That's spr e a k 1:07:24.080 --> 1:07:32.600 E R hustle on over today. I'm Colleen with join 1:07:32.720 --> 1:07:35.520 me the host of Eating Wall Broke podcast, while I 1:07:35.560 --> 1:07:39.320 eat a meal created by self made entrepreneurs, influencers and 1:07:39.480 --> 1:07:42.040 celebrities over a meal they once ate when they were broke. 1:07:42.240 --> 1:07:45.480 Today I have the lovely aj Crimson, the official Princess 1:07:45.560 --> 1:07:49.800 of comfin Asia. Kiddingk and Asia. This is the professor. 1:07:49.920 --> 1:07:52.640 We're here on Eating Wall Broken. Today, I'm gonna break 1:07:52.640 --> 1:07:55.320 down my meal that got me through the time when 1:07:55.320 --> 1:07:57.880 I was broken. Listen to Eating Wall Broke on the 1:07:57.960 --> 1:08:00.840 I Heart Radio app, on apple Pie podcast or wherever 1:08:00.880 --> 1:08:11.480 you get your podcasts. Welcome to the Hudcast. This is 1:08:11.520 --> 1:08:15.280 a crypto podcast where we talk about the best n 1:08:15.320 --> 1:08:19.160 f T investments and how you can get rich. To bro, 1:08:19.439 --> 1:08:22.559 if you just accept the wave of the future and 1:08:22.840 --> 1:08:27.000 decentralize your finance and invest in a bank that can 1:08:27.040 --> 1:08:30.240 take all of your money overnight and disappear because it 1:08:30.280 --> 1:08:33.320 was really just being run by a guy in Macedonia 1:08:33.680 --> 1:08:36.400 and he it was just a rugpole the entire time, 1:08:36.520 --> 1:08:39.040 and you lose your life savings and you have no 1:08:39.160 --> 1:08:43.160 recourse and that's the fucking future of investments. Bro. Hey, bro, 1:08:43.360 --> 1:08:49.160 you're fired. Yeah, that's fair. This is it could happen 1:08:49.200 --> 1:08:52.839 here podcast about how things are bad sometimes a podcast 1:08:52.880 --> 1:08:55.160 about how to make them less bad. Today we're talking 1:08:55.240 --> 1:08:57.960 about the former how things are bad, and we're talking 1:08:58.000 --> 1:09:03.920 about financialization, um, and specifically the financialization of like human 1:09:03.960 --> 1:09:07.479 beings and the endeavor to create art. Uh and so 1:09:08.120 --> 1:09:11.840 art art is a broad broad term. I mean, I 1:09:11.920 --> 1:09:15.240 said the endeavor to I'm sure they all want to 1:09:15.320 --> 1:09:17.720 be creating art. Well, this won't make any sense to 1:09:17.760 --> 1:09:19.719 people yet, so I'm gonna I'm gonna give a brief overview. 1:09:19.880 --> 1:09:22.080 There's an article in the Atlantic that dropped on November 1:09:22.120 --> 1:09:25.760 twenty nine called what Happens when You're the Investment. It's 1:09:25.760 --> 1:09:30.920 by Rex Wouldbury Um, who I hate um. So as 1:09:30.920 --> 1:09:34.760 a note, okay, let let me just get the the 1:09:35.000 --> 1:09:37.680 the nut of the article is, and that there's been 1:09:37.680 --> 1:09:40.479 a couple of other articles on this guy. Um. His 1:09:40.640 --> 1:09:45.800 name is Alex mass mesh Um and he is a 1:09:45.840 --> 1:09:50.000 French kid, I think, who decided to tokenize himself. And 1:09:50.040 --> 1:09:53.559 what that means is so like you've got the etherory 1:09:53.600 --> 1:09:58.599 and blockchain right. He basically he's he's putting he's carving 1:09:58.720 --> 1:10:02.639 up aspects of his like potential future earnings, and he's 1:10:02.680 --> 1:10:06.120 putting those on the Ethereum blockchain as like tokens that 1:10:06.160 --> 1:10:09.639 people can buy. And the idea is that this kid 1:10:09.720 --> 1:10:12.080 had wanted to like start a business and be an entrepreneur, 1:10:12.200 --> 1:10:14.960 but he didn't have any money. So using like on 1:10:15.000 --> 1:10:19.000 the ether blockchain, he turned himself into tokens basically like 1:10:19.080 --> 1:10:23.120 his potential future earnings and his time. And basically people 1:10:23.120 --> 1:10:27.000 are able to buy up coins effectively, I mean not coins, 1:10:27.040 --> 1:10:30.880 but tokens shares. Yeah, yeah, dollar sign Alex is like 1:10:30.960 --> 1:10:33.280 the name of the token, which basically shares they're buying. 1:10:33.479 --> 1:10:37.360 He's turned himself essentially into a publicly traded company kind 1:10:37.400 --> 1:10:41.800 of um. And holders of his coins are like, he's 1:10:41.840 --> 1:10:44.320 splitting up fifteen percent of his income for the next 1:10:44.479 --> 1:10:48.679 three years basically among people who like hold his coins. 1:10:48.760 --> 1:10:51.559 And he raised like twenty grand this way. Um. And 1:10:51.640 --> 1:10:54.200 it's not just like it's not just his future earnings 1:10:54.200 --> 1:10:56.280 that are being kind of tokenized. You can also use 1:10:56.360 --> 1:10:58.880 tokens to like buy retweets from him, or one on 1:10:58.880 --> 1:11:02.080 one conversations or and here's a line, I love an 1:11:02.160 --> 1:11:05.880 introduction to someone in his network. And and it's the 1:11:06.320 --> 1:11:08.320 overall idea because there's you can find some other good 1:11:08.360 --> 1:11:11.680 articles good as an interesting word to use. You can 1:11:11.680 --> 1:11:16.160 find other interesting, fascinating articles about this this idea, which 1:11:16.200 --> 1:11:22.320 is like human beings tokenizing their future earning potential um 1:11:22.360 --> 1:11:28.080 in order to raise money um and and it's uh 1:11:28.240 --> 1:11:30.360 the way this is usually sold as a good thing. 1:11:30.360 --> 1:11:32.120 In fact, I should probably just read a quote from 1:11:32.120 --> 1:11:34.200 this Atlantic article to give you an idea of how 1:11:34.920 --> 1:11:38.160 uh mass measure is, or of how um um the 1:11:38.240 --> 1:11:42.280 art the author of the article, Rex good Wouldbury, is 1:11:42.280 --> 1:11:45.559 is trying to sell this ship. We all have the 1:11:45.680 --> 1:11:48.280 slightly annoying friend who insists that she knew about so 1:11:48.320 --> 1:11:50.320 and so before they were even famous. When it comes 1:11:50.360 --> 1:11:52.400 to Taylor Swift, I'm that friend, and I'm more than 1:11:52.439 --> 1:11:54.600 slightly annoying about it. I was a Taylor fan in 1:11:54.640 --> 1:11:57.479 her pre fearless full on country days, years before Conway 1:11:57.520 --> 1:11:59.559 interrupted her on stage at the v m AS. But 1:11:59.600 --> 1:12:03.040 in our constructive fandom, I'm treated no differently than a 1:12:03.040 --> 1:12:05.639 fan who discovered Swift on SNL a few weeks back. 1:12:06.080 --> 1:12:08.120 This would be different, though. If Taylor had done what 1:12:08.160 --> 1:12:10.760 mass Measure did and turned herself into an investment, she 1:12:10.800 --> 1:12:14.120 could have issued a social token, whereas non fungible tokens 1:12:14.240 --> 1:12:15.920 or n f t s are so called because of 1:12:15.920 --> 1:12:19.040 the uniqueness of a digital asset. Social tokens are fungible. 1:12:19.080 --> 1:12:21.880 In other words, each Alex token is interchangeable with every 1:12:21.880 --> 1:12:23.880 other Alex token, just like a dollar bill can be 1:12:23.880 --> 1:12:26.880 traded for any other dollar bill. Say Taylor issued had 1:12:26.880 --> 1:12:30.040 issued her own token, Let's call it a dollar signs swift, 1:12:30.280 --> 1:12:32.559 and say she had sold dollar signed swift to her 1:12:32.560 --> 1:12:36.280 biggest fans. Yeah, say I was one such fan. Over time, 1:12:36.360 --> 1:12:39.479 as Taylor's popularity grew, the value of the Swift token 1:12:39.520 --> 1:12:42.000 would have appreciated. As an early believer, I would have 1:12:42.000 --> 1:12:44.600 shared in the financial upside of her growing fame. The 1:12:44.600 --> 1:12:46.439 Swift token I had brought for a hundred dollars in 1:12:46.479 --> 1:12:49.040 two thousand seven might be worth a hundred thousand dollars today. 1:12:49.600 --> 1:12:52.280 The Taylor Swift mini economy would serve both the singer 1:12:52.320 --> 1:12:54.639 and early fans like me. As an artist, Taylor could 1:12:54.680 --> 1:12:57.960 have funded her work by selling dollar signs or Swift tokens. 1:12:57.960 --> 1:12:59.640 She might not have needed to sell ownership of her 1:12:59.680 --> 1:13:01.640 master and she might not have been forced to re 1:13:01.760 --> 1:13:04.000 record her albums to take back control over her art. 1:13:04.360 --> 1:13:06.280 Taylor's fans, for their part, would have been rewarded for 1:13:06.280 --> 1:13:09.360 a decade of patronage. We're all evangelists for our favorite artists, 1:13:09.560 --> 1:13:12.080 yet we capture little of the value that we helped create. 1:13:12.640 --> 1:13:16.720 And then there's a lot that like I find unsettling. There. 1:13:16.760 --> 1:13:19.600 One of them is the idea that like, yeah, the 1:13:19.600 --> 1:13:21.360 fact that I was a fan of someone earlier means 1:13:21.400 --> 1:13:23.280 I should get some sort of reward for it, Like 1:13:23.320 --> 1:13:25.799 I should be treated differently because I liked it earlier, 1:13:25.800 --> 1:13:28.599 which you might recognize like the thing that everybody has 1:13:28.640 --> 1:13:31.880 been shipping on for like fandoms for years now, like 1:13:31.920 --> 1:13:34.160 it's been a it's been a huge thing, where like, yeah, 1:13:34.200 --> 1:13:36.080 you're being an asshole if you're if you're talking about 1:13:36.080 --> 1:13:38.479 like if you think you have some additional ownership of 1:13:38.520 --> 1:13:41.080 Star Wars because you watched it ten years before the 1:13:41.120 --> 1:13:43.160 fans today and so you like different stuff in it, 1:13:43.240 --> 1:13:46.840 Like that's we all recognize that as like toxic um. 1:13:46.880 --> 1:13:49.680 But the the whole argument of this article is that like, no, 1:13:49.800 --> 1:13:52.880 this is how the entire future of creativity should work. 1:13:53.160 --> 1:13:56.639 We find unsettling. And it also it also ties into 1:13:56.720 --> 1:14:02.120 like a really concerning development in paras social relationships of 1:14:02.160 --> 1:14:06.520 like to like invest in someone to buy a conversation 1:14:06.560 --> 1:14:10.479 with them in like this really weird way um and 1:14:10.560 --> 1:14:12.639 the fact that young artists are going to be pressured 1:14:12.680 --> 1:14:16.160 into this kind of thing is really scary. Yeah, because 1:14:16.200 --> 1:14:18.639 there's like one of the things mass Measure did as 1:14:18.720 --> 1:14:22.439 like um uh as an experiment, was like allow people 1:14:22.479 --> 1:14:25.800 who had bought his tokens to make life decisions for him, 1:14:25.880 --> 1:14:27.799 like tell him when to wake up in the morning 1:14:27.800 --> 1:14:29.799 and whether or not to eat red meat and stuff 1:14:29.840 --> 1:14:32.840 like that. And he stated that like, well, none of 1:14:32.880 --> 1:14:35.559 this is binding, right, Like I'll I might do what 1:14:35.600 --> 1:14:37.200 they say, but like I'm not going to do anything 1:14:37.240 --> 1:14:40.240 crazy or whatever. But also this is like the first 1:14:40.320 --> 1:14:45.479 iteration of this um. And I like this Atlantic article, 1:14:45.560 --> 1:14:47.880 which I think is unhinged for reasons we'll get into, 1:14:47.960 --> 1:14:51.240 but it's purely talking about like, look at this incredibly 1:14:51.240 --> 1:14:53.679 successful person. I imagine if they've gotten to be incredibly 1:14:53.720 --> 1:14:56.680 successful using this method instead, and it might have like 1:14:57.360 --> 1:14:59.400 spared them this thing. But when I keep thinking about 1:14:59.520 --> 1:15:03.120 is like, Okay, well, the vast majority of people like 1:15:03.640 --> 1:15:06.559 there's no reason to invest in them, Like yeah, maybe 1:15:06.640 --> 1:15:08.600 if you come out with a great song or a 1:15:08.600 --> 1:15:10.880 great video, like yeah, you could get investments and I'm 1:15:10.880 --> 1:15:13.040 sure that could work out. I'm sure, like Taylor Swift 1:15:13.080 --> 1:15:15.040 is a successful enough person, I'm sure she could have 1:15:15.040 --> 1:15:17.800 found a way to succeed under that system too. But 1:15:18.560 --> 1:15:20.880 what I think will be much more common because there's 1:15:20.880 --> 1:15:23.920 no real reason to anticipate that the average person will 1:15:23.960 --> 1:15:26.719 have an earnings potential. If you give them twenty grand, 1:15:26.840 --> 1:15:32.000 that's greater than twenty grand. Um. The most likely thing 1:15:32.040 --> 1:15:33.920 is that like people just buy shares and poor people 1:15:33.960 --> 1:15:35.960 to make them do fucked up ship. Yeah, it's gonna 1:15:35.960 --> 1:15:37.600 be how would you not? How would that not be 1:15:37.640 --> 1:15:39.960 where it goes? That's that that's the only way that 1:15:40.000 --> 1:15:44.439 this is going to get like used on a large scale. 1:15:44.680 --> 1:15:49.640 People just selling themselves. People are people are kind of 1:15:49.720 --> 1:15:56.360 use the Ether blockchain to like crowdfund and crowd uh 1:15:56.520 --> 1:16:00.280 cast a new jackass basically, Like it's going it's not 1:16:00.320 --> 1:16:02.759 going to be like a thousand Taylor Swift's all token 1:16:02.800 --> 1:16:05.519 izing themselves. It's going to be like millions of people 1:16:05.520 --> 1:16:08.280 in the global self issuing tokens to like vote on 1:16:08.320 --> 1:16:11.120 whether they roll down the hill in a barrel or 1:16:11.160 --> 1:16:16.080 in like a fucking porta potti. Like it's just it's 1:16:16.080 --> 1:16:19.360 a nightmare to me to contemplate people actually adopting this. 1:16:20.080 --> 1:16:22.519 You know, there's there's a lot of really like the 1:16:22.600 --> 1:16:24.200 thing I think is the most incredible part about this 1:16:24.280 --> 1:16:29.400 is that like, okay, so like it basically doesn't matter 1:16:30.720 --> 1:16:34.680 what like economic theory you used to look at it. 1:16:34.680 --> 1:16:37.080 It's like every single one of them tells you something 1:16:37.160 --> 1:16:40.439 just like absolutely fucked about it, and like, you know, 1:16:40.439 --> 1:16:42.559 because because I mean they're there, there's there's there's some 1:16:42.600 --> 1:16:44.320 extent to which I look at this and it's like, 1:16:45.200 --> 1:16:48.240 this isn't that much different than the fact, you know, 1:16:48.240 --> 1:16:49.920 it's like okay, so you're paying someone to do whatever 1:16:49.960 --> 1:16:52.080 you want, but like, okay, like that's not that much 1:16:52.080 --> 1:16:55.920 different than just a job, right, Like it's it's not 1:16:56.120 --> 1:16:59.080 it's not inherently that much different than the fact that 1:16:59.120 --> 1:17:03.200 everyone is to just do wage labor. But also, like 1:17:04.640 --> 1:17:08.679 there's one was interesting things to me that I thought 1:17:08.680 --> 1:17:11.240 about this when I was what I was reading this 1:17:11.400 --> 1:17:16.800 was so, do you just know what capitalization is? Yeah? Yeah, 1:17:16.840 --> 1:17:19.000 so this is this is just capitalizing a person, right, 1:17:19.040 --> 1:17:25.080 Like it's literally taking a person public effect putting turning 1:17:25.080 --> 1:17:28.400 them into like a tradeable share and that's like an investment. Yeah, 1:17:28.680 --> 1:17:30.280 I mean this is all one of the things that 1:17:30.320 --> 1:17:32.240 like a Forbes article I found point is like this 1:17:32.320 --> 1:17:36.439 is another kind of unregulated securities training. Yeah yeah, yeah. 1:17:36.520 --> 1:17:38.679 But what's what's interesting to me about it is that like, okay, 1:17:38.720 --> 1:17:42.519 so you know this is also already how accounting wise, 1:17:42.600 --> 1:17:44.880 every corporation sees a person, right like every every every 1:17:44.880 --> 1:17:48.000 every person in the asset book is you know, yeah, 1:17:48.080 --> 1:17:50.400 you know, like a wage is just capitalization, right, It's 1:17:50.400 --> 1:17:52.519 like how much will you pay now for this much money? Later? 1:17:52.840 --> 1:17:54.600 You could, but it's like people are doing it to 1:17:54.640 --> 1:17:59.679 themselves now, which just like this, Yeah, you could argue 1:17:59.680 --> 1:18:02.160 that like elements of this or how like banks treat 1:18:02.200 --> 1:18:05.160 you when you get a mortgage, right, um, like, but 1:18:05.160 --> 1:18:10.800 but also that's much more rigorous and limited, like it 1:18:10.840 --> 1:18:14.240 has like regulations and it has rules for how those 1:18:14.280 --> 1:18:17.280 things work. It's not some like twelve year old getting 1:18:18.200 --> 1:18:21.240 like like going on to coin base and buying part 1:18:21.240 --> 1:18:23.120 of you as a joke with your with like his 1:18:23.200 --> 1:18:26.400 dad's money, right, like, because it's like yeah, because what 1:18:26.439 --> 1:18:30.000 if it's like there's no law against a seventeen year 1:18:30.040 --> 1:18:33.160 old I guess if maybe their parents may need to consent, 1:18:33.200 --> 1:18:35.439 but there's no law against the seventeen year old getting 1:18:35.439 --> 1:18:39.080 a facial tattoo of like the doors of a concentration 1:18:39.120 --> 1:18:42.440 camp on their face. But what if some kid tokenizes 1:18:42.520 --> 1:18:44.760 himself for forty grands so he can drop an EP 1:18:45.240 --> 1:18:48.120 and that's what like a bunch of four channers who 1:18:48.160 --> 1:18:51.479 buy up his his shares want him to do um. 1:18:51.520 --> 1:18:53.400 And maybe the fucking kid does that because he knows 1:18:53.400 --> 1:18:55.800 it's going to get him, because his brain is not 1:18:55.840 --> 1:18:57.360 done and he knows it's going to get him. A 1:18:57.360 --> 1:19:01.639 bunch of fucking social media cloud. Yeah, Like it's there's 1:19:01.640 --> 1:19:04.320 a lot of and there's no way to regulate that. Like, 1:19:04.360 --> 1:19:07.920 it's just an inherently toxic proposition that I don't think 1:19:07.920 --> 1:19:10.439 the government would. I don't know what side of this 1:19:10.520 --> 1:19:12.680 the government would even step in on. Like what is 1:19:12.720 --> 1:19:16.479 the regulation of people deciding I'm letting random strangers who 1:19:16.479 --> 1:19:18.479 pay me money vote on what I do with my life. 1:19:19.120 --> 1:19:20.720 What do you ever think? It reminds me of a 1:19:20.760 --> 1:19:23.719 lot is like the micro lending stuff from the nineties, 1:19:24.640 --> 1:19:26.640 where it was like, oh, well, we'll like empower these 1:19:26.640 --> 1:19:29.320 people by we'll go in and uh, We're going to 1:19:29.400 --> 1:19:30.920 give them like a small amount of money and they 1:19:30.920 --> 1:19:32.920 have to pay back, and it was like you know, 1:19:32.960 --> 1:19:35.880 and and all of the same stuff that you're reading, 1:19:35.960 --> 1:19:37.960 all the arguments about why this is a good thing 1:19:38.000 --> 1:19:40.559 are exactly the same as the micro lending ones and 1:19:40.640 --> 1:19:42.439 that stuff. You know. There there were two ways it 1:19:42.439 --> 1:19:48.559 turned out. One was basically you get the scenario where 1:19:48.560 --> 1:19:51.840 both sides are scamming each other, where you know, all 1:19:51.840 --> 1:19:53.720 the people who are getting these micro loanchers, they're just 1:19:53.720 --> 1:19:55.680 taking the money and walking right like that's you know, 1:19:55.760 --> 1:19:57.559 the their their their things. Oh this is I can 1:19:57.560 --> 1:19:59.040 just get money like this and we can just keep 1:19:59.320 --> 1:20:02.680 I just keep paying it back. And so I'm scamming them. 1:20:02.720 --> 1:20:04.400 But then on the other side you have these people 1:20:04.479 --> 1:20:06.280 who are like, oh cool, I can give this person 1:20:06.320 --> 1:20:08.960 this loan and turn them into a debt peon and 1:20:09.240 --> 1:20:11.240 it and you know, and and the the the really 1:20:11.280 --> 1:20:13.599 depressing side about it is so that the people who 1:20:13.640 --> 1:20:17.200 couldn't get away, like I mean, we're literally reduced the 1:20:17.240 --> 1:20:19.479 debt pions and you know, I mean there's a huge 1:20:19.479 --> 1:20:22.840 wave of suicides in Indias. Probably don't say example, is 1:20:22.840 --> 1:20:24.439 a wave of suicide is people drinking past a side 1:20:24.439 --> 1:20:27.240 because they couldn't pay off these loans and so and 1:20:27.080 --> 1:20:30.160 And the thing that's different about this is that like 1:20:30.720 --> 1:20:32.679 I mean, a you're doing it to yourself. But then 1:20:33.680 --> 1:20:37.240 be again, there's no regulation, but that also means there 1:20:37.280 --> 1:20:41.799 isn't any way to force someone to do what you 1:20:41.360 --> 1:20:44.519 say you're going to do. It's unclear how it's going 1:20:44.600 --> 1:20:46.439 to be enforced. And the other thing that is clear 1:20:46.560 --> 1:20:49.439 is like what does losses look like? Like what what 1:20:49.560 --> 1:20:53.000 happens when someone like you cannot make back on like 1:20:53.040 --> 1:20:55.960 an investment, but if the investment is a person, how 1:20:56.000 --> 1:20:59.680 does that work? And if someone's contractually obligated to give 1:20:59.720 --> 1:21:02.280 us and share their income, what happens when there's not 1:21:02.400 --> 1:21:04.679 enough income for that? Like like you know, so those 1:21:04.680 --> 1:21:08.639 types of things. Yeah, I mean there's no answer to that. Uh, 1:21:08.680 --> 1:21:12.080 And there's nobody like the money that's going to be 1:21:12.120 --> 1:21:15.960 whatever made in this is going to be made before 1:21:16.880 --> 1:21:19.759 anyone steps into to try to answer that if anyone 1:21:19.800 --> 1:21:24.120 ever does, like, um, it's it's gonna be the next 1:21:24.160 --> 1:21:25.880 because I think we're I think we're heading for a 1:21:25.920 --> 1:21:28.400 crash with with n f T s. Like there was 1:21:28.439 --> 1:21:31.679 just an article today about how what is of nfc 1:21:31.840 --> 1:21:34.000 T trading is done by like ten percent of people, 1:21:34.479 --> 1:21:36.840 which further back because the allegations of n f t 1:21:37.000 --> 1:21:39.519 S is that most of what's happening isn't people actually 1:21:39.600 --> 1:21:43.160 buying them. It's people like the same person using multiple 1:21:43.240 --> 1:21:46.519 wallets basically trying to jack up the perceived value by 1:21:46.520 --> 1:21:48.960 throwing a bunch of other Internet money that they already have. 1:21:49.080 --> 1:21:51.000 So these these whales who have like a bunch of 1:21:51.000 --> 1:21:54.360 crypto gaming the system, and we've seen some of them, 1:21:54.400 --> 1:21:56.160 and the biggest n f t S salever, it was 1:21:56.200 --> 1:21:57.840 like half a billion dollars and it was a guy 1:21:57.960 --> 1:22:00.320 selling it to himself and then transferring it back into 1:22:00.360 --> 1:22:02.680 another wallet to try to make it look like it 1:22:02.720 --> 1:22:05.080 was worth half a billion dollars even though no one 1:22:05.080 --> 1:22:09.680 had actually really paid that for it. Um so I 1:22:09.920 --> 1:22:11.760 and I think you know that. And kind of what 1:22:11.800 --> 1:22:14.680 we've seen with the regulations the government's financed for n 1:22:14.720 --> 1:22:16.920 f t s, I think that's a problem for them 1:22:16.960 --> 1:22:19.760 in the near future. And I wouldn't be surprised to 1:22:19.840 --> 1:22:24.280 see this takeoff next, especially given like the creator economy 1:22:24.320 --> 1:22:29.960 that we're seeing on like the kind of that TikTok, yeah, TikTok, 1:22:30.080 --> 1:22:31.679 Like I wouldn't be surprised if you saw a rash 1:22:31.680 --> 1:22:35.479 of big TikTok stars tokenizing themselves and like I'm not 1:22:35.520 --> 1:22:37.280 even sure, I'm I'm I'm sure it would be a 1:22:37.320 --> 1:22:40.320 mix of the person making the tokens being the one 1:22:40.479 --> 1:22:44.280 doing the scam and the person receiving or the people 1:22:44.280 --> 1:22:46.120 buying the tokens being the one doing. Like, I'm sure 1:22:46.120 --> 1:22:48.440 it would be a mix of different kinds of exploitation. 1:22:48.560 --> 1:22:51.400 But it's not gonna be good, I mean, And and 1:22:51.479 --> 1:22:54.400 just like a, it's gonna make like I don't know, 1:22:54.560 --> 1:22:57.040 fifty people super rich when they when they first start 1:22:57.120 --> 1:22:59.040 trying it, right like that that is that is like 1:22:59.080 --> 1:23:03.080 when this happens, like when a TikTok star with million followers, 1:23:03.240 --> 1:23:05.719 when they do this, they will make boatloads of money. 1:23:05.920 --> 1:23:11.040 It's just unclear what happens after that. Yeah, well Fleet 1:23:11.040 --> 1:23:14.120 of Mexico. Yeah, I mean, that would be the smart thing. 1:23:14.160 --> 1:23:16.880 That would be the smart thing to YEA. In this 1:23:16.960 --> 1:23:19.880 Forbes article I found, which is a thousand times better 1:23:19.880 --> 1:23:22.320 than the Atlantic article, Like even though it's written by 1:23:22.320 --> 1:23:25.439 someone I think who's also into crypto, it's just it 1:23:25.520 --> 1:23:28.880 actually it asks some of these questions we've been talking 1:23:28.880 --> 1:23:32.280 about um and it cites David Hoffman, who's the CEO 1:23:32.600 --> 1:23:35.960 of a of a token ized real estate platform, um 1:23:36.040 --> 1:23:38.080 on what he sees as some of the problems, Like 1:23:38.120 --> 1:23:41.160 what he, as a guy who's supports aspects of this 1:23:41.360 --> 1:23:46.440 kind of thing, sees is the problems with this and uh, 1:23:46.479 --> 1:23:50.960 it's yeah one sec um Hoffman re returning to his 1:23:51.000 --> 1:23:54.080 core problem with the personal token model model. Hoffman re 1:23:54.120 --> 1:23:58.160 emphasized that the assurances and utility that come with some 1:23:58.240 --> 1:24:01.320 of these tokens don't exist, for with with certain kinds 1:24:01.320 --> 1:24:04.040 of tokens don't exist for like these personal tokens, how 1:24:04.160 --> 1:24:07.440 risky this investment is is completely defined by the individual. 1:24:07.479 --> 1:24:09.479 In his disclaimer, he's and he's talking about one of 1:24:09.479 --> 1:24:12.880 the guys who's token himself, this guy named Kerman. In 1:24:12.960 --> 1:24:15.240 his disclaimer, he says this is a highly risky investment 1:24:15.240 --> 1:24:16.720 and that you could lose all your money, which is 1:24:16.720 --> 1:24:19.000 a terrible thing to say, because with personal tokens, the 1:24:19.040 --> 1:24:21.840 issuer is in complete control over exactly how risky the 1:24:21.840 --> 1:24:24.559 investment actually is. It's largely up to them whether there 1:24:24.560 --> 1:24:27.400 are risks or not, which is like a kind of 1:24:27.479 --> 1:24:30.839 illegal securities trading that I don't think we've ever anyone's 1:24:30.840 --> 1:24:35.559 ever done. Um, Like it's this It's this fascinating new 1:24:37.720 --> 1:24:43.719 con where you're literally the you're you're doing securities trading, 1:24:43.760 --> 1:24:46.040 but instead of it being over a company, it's just 1:24:46.200 --> 1:24:49.320 you and technically there's no consequences if you just take 1:24:49.320 --> 1:24:52.720 the money and run, Like, I don't know what kind 1:24:52.760 --> 1:24:55.400 of contract, Like, you couldn't have a contract that says 1:24:55.560 --> 1:24:57.920 that you could say, they're that you're obligated to pay 1:24:57.920 --> 1:25:01.800 out your future earnings. You couldn't have to work like 1:25:01.880 --> 1:25:07.519 that's not enforceable. You can't like contractually obligate someone two 1:25:08.080 --> 1:25:12.719 to like work, like you're allowed to quit a job. 1:25:13.320 --> 1:25:15.240 I mean, I guess you could put penalties in it, 1:25:15.280 --> 1:25:17.479 but I don't, like, none of the current ones have anything, 1:25:17.560 --> 1:25:20.280 I mean, or they could go to The other option 1:25:20.400 --> 1:25:22.160 is is that they could go to jail for fraud 1:25:22.200 --> 1:25:24.719 if they try to if they try to not follow 1:25:24.760 --> 1:25:26.840 through on the investment. If you say, like, yeah, I 1:25:27.240 --> 1:25:29.320 I invested in you and you said that you would 1:25:29.320 --> 1:25:32.160 do these things, you didn't do them, Now you can 1:25:32.160 --> 1:25:36.160 go to prison. That is the other Yeah, and I 1:25:36.200 --> 1:25:38.639 think that will at some point, like there will be 1:25:38.720 --> 1:25:40.600 scams and some of that will come in, but like, 1:25:40.640 --> 1:25:42.320 none of these current ones, none of them are saying, 1:25:42.479 --> 1:25:44.559 here's my specific I'm going to make this special. It's 1:25:44.560 --> 1:25:48.639 not like like if you like with a Patreon, right, 1:25:48.840 --> 1:25:51.360 You're you're paying a little bit at a time on 1:25:51.400 --> 1:25:55.240 an ongoing basis for a very clear product. Generally, this 1:25:55.320 --> 1:25:57.280 is so far These aren't that. They're just like, I'm 1:25:57.320 --> 1:25:59.519 gonna try to do something that makes money and if 1:25:59.520 --> 1:26:01.880 it does, you get a cut of it. And that's 1:26:02.720 --> 1:26:05.080 it's so much like there's nothing that's stopping mass metch 1:26:05.120 --> 1:26:08.679 from saying like, hey, my my and my attempt didn't work. 1:26:09.000 --> 1:26:12.120 Uh so we're done. No no money for anybody like that, 1:26:12.439 --> 1:26:15.240 and I you're not. There's no accounting requirements, there's no 1:26:15.640 --> 1:26:17.240 there's a bunch of ways in which it's sucked up 1:26:17.240 --> 1:26:21.120 from a financial except it's not it's not his, it's 1:26:21.120 --> 1:26:23.400 not it's not you're not investing in his business. You're 1:26:23.400 --> 1:26:25.400 nesting in him. So even even if even if he 1:26:25.439 --> 1:26:30.120 takes another job, they're still it seems to be contractually 1:26:30.160 --> 1:26:34.280 obligated to still get that of his income. Yes, and 1:26:34.320 --> 1:26:36.080 I think that's that's the area in which I think 1:26:36.080 --> 1:26:38.719 it would be abusive for the person being token ized, 1:26:39.320 --> 1:26:43.680 because most people aren't gonna like most people don't make 1:26:43.720 --> 1:26:46.640 that much money, so they raise someone manages to like 1:26:46.760 --> 1:26:49.840 raise five or ten grand and then just winds up 1:26:50.080 --> 1:26:53.200 for years giving a cut of their income that winds 1:26:53.280 --> 1:26:55.559 up being more than they got initially to a bunch 1:26:55.560 --> 1:26:58.240 of like it's almost like a like a payday loan 1:26:58.360 --> 1:27:02.240 that you've blocked. Yeah, you know, Okay, so this is 1:27:02.439 --> 1:27:04.439 this is what I'm thinking about, because so there's I 1:27:04.479 --> 1:27:06.360 don't know if I talked about this on the show, 1:27:06.680 --> 1:27:09.880 but there's a thing in China where they've been kind 1:27:09.880 --> 1:27:12.680 of cracking down it now for funding like nineteen like 1:27:12.720 --> 1:27:16.240 literally every single app like had a like had a 1:27:16.240 --> 1:27:18.200 pet a loan thing in it, so like like your 1:27:18.240 --> 1:27:21.000 flashlight app would have would offer you a pet a loan, 1:27:21.000 --> 1:27:23.280 and it was basically it was yeah, they were They 1:27:23.320 --> 1:27:27.160 were originally tied in with like people who buy um, 1:27:27.240 --> 1:27:28.639 you know. I was originally tied in with like like 1:27:29.320 --> 1:27:32.519 the the services that like their version of Amazon for example, 1:27:32.800 --> 1:27:34.680 would like, oh, hey, we'll give you a loan so 1:27:34.680 --> 1:27:36.920 you can buy this, you can order fried chicken. And 1:27:36.960 --> 1:27:39.679 I was always wondering when this would come to the US, 1:27:40.720 --> 1:27:43.759 and I think it might never hope, I mean hopefully 1:27:43.800 --> 1:27:45.120 it never does, and I think it might not just 1:27:45.160 --> 1:27:48.599 because of how like powerful our petty a loan industry is. 1:27:49.240 --> 1:27:52.479 But it's like we've we've now invented it seems like 1:27:52.479 --> 1:27:56.200 it's gonna happen, but like dumber, like our our version 1:27:56.200 --> 1:28:00.720 of it is like this thing which is just you know, 1:28:00.840 --> 1:28:03.040 it's what what if? What if paid a loans but 1:28:03.120 --> 1:28:06.560 on the blockchain? Except you know, I mean when I 1:28:07.000 --> 1:28:09.040 guess this is the everything you know that that we've've 1:28:09.040 --> 1:28:12.000 been getting at is that the difference between this being 1:28:12.040 --> 1:28:15.080 a paid a loan and this being you scammed a 1:28:15.080 --> 1:28:18.280 bunch of people is what the enforcement mechanism looks like. 1:28:19.560 --> 1:28:22.680 And you know this this this comes back to some 1:28:22.720 --> 1:28:25.800 other things I think you're interesting about. This. One is 1:28:25.960 --> 1:28:29.000 that you know, so the whole theine n f T 1:28:29.160 --> 1:28:32.799 drift right is based on convincing people that there's value 1:28:33.240 --> 1:28:38.160 in ownership, right there, Like ownership itself has inherently has value. 1:28:38.600 --> 1:28:40.960 And yeah, but but this this is not that this 1:28:41.000 --> 1:28:42.720 is this is you know, this is going back to 1:28:43.040 --> 1:28:46.800 know your value value is built on labor, right, Well, yeah, 1:28:47.360 --> 1:28:51.200 it's like labor and like like personhood, like like you 1:28:51.280 --> 1:28:54.519 as a personal brand is the thing that they're trying 1:28:54.560 --> 1:28:56.559 to get at. But but the thing, the thing that's 1:28:56.560 --> 1:28:59.960 missing here, though, is that in order for like, you know, 1:29:00.040 --> 1:29:03.280 in order for like labor to produce value right in 1:29:03.640 --> 1:29:06.120 this way, there has to be like there has to 1:29:06.160 --> 1:29:07.960 be a way for you to force them to pay 1:29:08.000 --> 1:29:10.519 you like you need you need coercion for it. And 1:29:10.680 --> 1:29:12.920 if there's no coercion, then you know, you just take 1:29:12.960 --> 1:29:15.840 a bunch of money and leave. And and that that 1:29:15.920 --> 1:29:17.599 I think is like this, this is going to be 1:29:17.640 --> 1:29:20.519 the battle over like, if this becomes a thing, it's 1:29:20.560 --> 1:29:23.640 going to be you know, the people who buy these 1:29:23.640 --> 1:29:26.600 things are gonna wind up like trying to you know, 1:29:26.680 --> 1:29:27.840 I think they're gonna be the ones you try to 1:29:27.840 --> 1:29:29.800 put your regulation because they're gonna you know, they're gonna 1:29:29.840 --> 1:29:31.000 go in. They're gonna be I want to get my 1:29:31.040 --> 1:29:36.559 money back, And that could end really really really badly 1:29:37.600 --> 1:29:41.640 if you know, I mean, it probably will. I Like, 1:29:41.720 --> 1:29:44.280 I don't know how popular I think this will be 1:29:44.280 --> 1:29:46.240 because I think that I hope that this is a 1:29:46.680 --> 1:29:48.800 maybe if there'd never been like a Patreon or something. 1:29:48.840 --> 1:29:53.720 But the actual use case of this seems to already 1:29:53.760 --> 1:29:58.960 be well served by the existing capitalist infrastructure, Like people 1:29:59.040 --> 1:30:02.680 I think more people wanted back a creator's Patreon than 1:30:02.720 --> 1:30:06.200 they want to like own pieces of a person's time 1:30:06.360 --> 1:30:09.960 and earning potential like that. That seems like a more 1:30:10.080 --> 1:30:12.960 niche and weird desire to people than just like, oh yeah, 1:30:12.960 --> 1:30:14.760 these guys make a video I like every week, so 1:30:14.800 --> 1:30:17.160 I'll throw them three dollars. Well, I think I think 1:30:17.200 --> 1:30:19.960 the difference though, is that pitch your on money gets 1:30:19.960 --> 1:30:22.240 you money for normal people. This gets you money from 1:30:22.280 --> 1:30:26.599 like tech bros. And that. Yeah, that's always yeah, it's 1:30:26.640 --> 1:30:30.000 it's a grift designed to And I want to dive 1:30:30.000 --> 1:30:32.240 back into this Atlantic article because it's so bad in 1:30:32.320 --> 1:30:34.760 such a comprehensive way that I think it deserves analysis. 1:30:34.720 --> 1:30:37.000 That's what what put a pin in what you said. 1:30:37.320 --> 1:30:39.759 But I want to start with, like how the person 1:30:39.960 --> 1:30:44.720 writing this, this Rex motherfucker, like his his concept of 1:30:44.760 --> 1:30:49.320 the the history of the Internet, um, because it's completely wrong. Quote. 1:30:49.640 --> 1:30:52.080 We're on the precipice of the third era of the Web. 1:30:52.160 --> 1:30:55.080 The Web's first era was about information flowing freely. Think 1:30:55.120 --> 1:30:57.960 Google giving you access to the world's knowledge. Most of 1:30:58.000 --> 1:31:00.760 us were passive consumers in this era. The second era 1:31:00.880 --> 1:31:04.080 was the social web Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, people began to 1:31:04.120 --> 1:31:06.920 create their own content, and that content became the lifeblood 1:31:06.920 --> 1:31:09.880 of the big platforms. We became active participants, but the 1:31:09.880 --> 1:31:13.120 platforms devoured all the profits. The promise of the Internet 1:31:13.120 --> 1:31:15.640 and the Internet was to erase the gatekeepers. Instead of 1:31:15.680 --> 1:31:17.559 waiting for a record label to sign you, you could 1:31:17.560 --> 1:31:20.960 share your music on Spotify. Instead of asking a publication 1:31:21.000 --> 1:31:23.360 to share your words. You could tweet, instead of being 1:31:23.400 --> 1:31:25.879 tapped by a studio execut you could become a YouTuber. 1:31:26.280 --> 1:31:29.480 What happened is that these platforms became the new gatekeepers. 1:31:29.840 --> 1:31:32.080 The third era of the web is about writing the ship. 1:31:32.400 --> 1:31:36.559 Social capital becomes economic capital. Value no longer accumulates to 1:31:36.600 --> 1:31:42.599 brokers and intermediaries. That's number one, completely wrong. But one thing, Yeah, 1:31:43.120 --> 1:31:45.360 the first era of the Internet, I would say, was 1:31:45.400 --> 1:31:48.280 about the idea that information should flow freely. And Google 1:31:48.360 --> 1:31:50.719 came in like a decade or more into that period. 1:31:51.080 --> 1:31:52.880 Like I had been on the Internet five years before 1:31:52.880 --> 1:31:55.200 Google hopped into that ship, and Google was actually the 1:31:55.280 --> 1:31:59.160 start of of the end of that period um And 1:31:59.240 --> 1:32:02.960 it's it's the idea that, like the social Web, was 1:32:03.080 --> 1:32:07.759 people creating their own content. Most of the social Web's 1:32:07.840 --> 1:32:11.439 initial capital and like all of its initial money came 1:32:11.520 --> 1:32:14.679 from taking content that people were being paid to make 1:32:14.760 --> 1:32:18.400 on legacy platforms that had existed before social media, taking 1:32:18.439 --> 1:32:22.360 that content, putting it on social media, and then monetizing 1:32:22.400 --> 1:32:24.920 that without paying money back to the people had made 1:32:24.960 --> 1:32:28.240 the content. The money in social media did not initially 1:32:28.320 --> 1:32:31.680 come from people making their own content, and the way 1:32:31.720 --> 1:32:34.880 that they mean it, like yeah, you at college humor 1:32:35.080 --> 1:32:38.280 or whatever, we're making your own content and sharing it 1:32:38.320 --> 1:32:40.719 on social media. But you've been doing that before social media. 1:32:40.800 --> 1:32:44.080 Social media just actually made it less profitable eventually, Like 1:32:44.360 --> 1:32:47.519 the way he summarizes this is so wrong because what 1:32:47.720 --> 1:32:49.559 the social web actually did. And the other thing I'd 1:32:49.640 --> 1:32:52.080 argue is that the first era of the Internet, the 1:32:52.200 --> 1:32:54.799 like early days when things are happening on like forums 1:32:54.840 --> 1:32:57.280 and and weird little angel fire websites and like even 1:32:57.360 --> 1:33:00.720 my space. Um would I think is kind of my 1:33:00.760 --> 1:33:04.400 Space kind of straddles the first in second eras UH, 1:33:04.439 --> 1:33:08.559 that was fundamentally much more an era of people creating 1:33:08.600 --> 1:33:13.360 their own content. Because the the lifeblood of UH social 1:33:13.400 --> 1:33:15.840 media today isn't people really making their own content, it's 1:33:15.840 --> 1:33:19.519 people reacting to content that other people made. UM. And again, 1:33:19.880 --> 1:33:22.400 it just shows the fact that he's he's summarizing it 1:33:22.479 --> 1:33:24.040 this way in a way that I think is so 1:33:24.120 --> 1:33:28.640 wrong and inaccurate to how things actually developed. Uh. Is 1:33:29.280 --> 1:33:32.200 characteristic of his attitude towards this stuff where he's kind 1:33:32.240 --> 1:33:36.200 of seeing the only real meaningful evolutions in in in 1:33:36.240 --> 1:33:41.120 the Internet through the corporations that monetized it, um, which 1:33:41.600 --> 1:33:44.240 is just telling of like how this guy actually sees 1:33:44.280 --> 1:33:46.280 the way the Internet has developed. And you will not 1:33:46.320 --> 1:33:49.679 be surprised to know, Uh, this motherfucker is an investor 1:33:49.720 --> 1:33:54.320 at Index Ventures. Um. Yeah, like he's he's he's a 1:33:54.320 --> 1:33:59.559 guy who's business is capitalizing things, um. And so that's 1:33:59.600 --> 1:34:01.639 the only way he sees the development of the Internet, 1:34:01.680 --> 1:34:03.920 even though that's not the accurate way of looking at 1:34:03.920 --> 1:34:06.200 how the Internet evolved. And I think I think that 1:34:06.280 --> 1:34:08.720 there's one more really important thing that he leaves out here, 1:34:08.760 --> 1:34:11.400 which is that because you know, like we're talking, oh, 1:34:11.439 --> 1:34:12.640 this is the third age of the Internet, Like, no, 1:34:12.720 --> 1:34:15.280 the third day of the Internet started, like I don't know, 1:34:15.680 --> 1:34:19.479 the mid early mid tends. When I would say when 1:34:19.560 --> 1:34:22.080 gamer Gate hit is when I would I would I mean, 1:34:22.120 --> 1:34:24.040 it's going to be a little off, I depend it 1:34:24.080 --> 1:34:26.800 depends what it depends what you mean by age. So 1:34:26.920 --> 1:34:29.720 one of my friends worst in advertising, and he was 1:34:29.760 --> 1:34:31.640 talking about this where you know, can we can we 1:34:31.640 --> 1:34:33.080 can talk about like gammer Gate in the sort of 1:34:33.120 --> 1:34:35.360 fascist Miles. But there was something else happening back end, 1:34:35.720 --> 1:34:37.839 which was the Internet of things stuff and the Internet 1:34:37.880 --> 1:34:41.479 things stuff like you know, like nobody it's kind of 1:34:41.479 --> 1:34:43.439 a I don't know, like I think we mostly think 1:34:43.479 --> 1:34:44.880 about it is like it's kind of a joke or 1:34:45.000 --> 1:34:47.640 like it just sucks. But really what it was was 1:34:47.680 --> 1:34:49.800 that that that was the period in which people figured 1:34:49.800 --> 1:34:51.720 out that the thing that the actual money and to 1:34:51.800 --> 1:34:53.519 be made on the Internet was some selling people's personal 1:34:53.520 --> 1:34:56.599 information and that and the and and the Internet things 1:34:56.640 --> 1:35:00.080 like just dramatic, like just indescribably increased the amount of 1:35:00.160 --> 1:35:03.599 data that you could extract from people. And that that 1:35:03.720 --> 1:35:06.240 was that's the actual that was the actual change of 1:35:06.320 --> 1:35:08.080 like like that that that's that's that's the thirty of 1:35:08.080 --> 1:35:10.000 the Internet, and that the earth the Internet will last 1:35:10.040 --> 1:35:12.599 basically for everyone until we destroy it, which is that 1:35:12.720 --> 1:35:17.479 you know, the commodity is just all of all of 1:35:17.520 --> 1:35:20.120 the information about who you are, where you go, like 1:35:20.240 --> 1:35:23.400 what you buy, who you talk to, that just being 1:35:23.760 --> 1:35:27.800 sold off to two advertisers, is you know the thing 1:35:27.840 --> 1:35:33.240 that he's very very carefully not talking about and instead 1:35:33.280 --> 1:35:36.040 focusing on, Oh, it was users creating content. And it's like, no, 1:35:36.320 --> 1:35:40.760 they the Internet just they they sold spying on the 1:35:40.920 --> 1:35:44.479 entire world. Yeah, And I think there's there's two good 1:35:44.520 --> 1:35:47.800 ways to to divide the Internet into ages, and the 1:35:47.840 --> 1:35:49.960 ages would be slightly different each way. One is kind 1:35:49.960 --> 1:35:51.760 of how you're doing it is the way in which 1:35:51.800 --> 1:35:54.720 it was monetized, Right, That's that's that's one way too. 1:35:54.800 --> 1:35:56.400 And and then if that's the case, it's going to 1:35:56.439 --> 1:35:57.680 start with it was not at all. It was an 1:35:57.760 --> 1:35:59.800 entirely public project and everybody on it was on it 1:36:00.120 --> 1:36:02.760 like a university, and like people did not pay to 1:36:02.920 --> 1:36:05.080 access it. Other than that you had to be at 1:36:05.080 --> 1:36:08.040 an institution or a university. And then like we get 1:36:08.040 --> 1:36:10.880 to the kind of the dot the era before the 1:36:10.960 --> 1:36:13.160 dot com boom and of the dot com boom, and 1:36:13.200 --> 1:36:16.719 then like the early pre social Internet stuff like something 1:36:16.760 --> 1:36:21.240 awful and like having stumbled upon and and whatnot, and 1:36:21.320 --> 1:36:23.800 like those sending traffic to sites like where I used 1:36:23.800 --> 1:36:26.320 to wear, cracked and um, and then kind of the 1:36:26.360 --> 1:36:28.360 social media, which is the start of as you said, 1:36:28.400 --> 1:36:32.160 like the data being monitored monetize like individuals data being 1:36:32.200 --> 1:36:35.240 the thing either that's being directly monetized or it's being 1:36:35.360 --> 1:36:39.519 used to deliver like targeted adds to you. Um. And 1:36:39.560 --> 1:36:41.120 then there's like if you think about it in terms 1:36:41.160 --> 1:36:44.360 of content, it's it starts like for the first era 1:36:44.400 --> 1:36:46.800 wouldn't even involve Google because it would be like the 1:36:46.840 --> 1:36:49.240 start of us neet up to eternal September in nine 1:36:50.120 --> 1:36:53.559 and then you know on from there. Um. But either way, 1:36:53.600 --> 1:36:56.400 this guy doesn't like everything he says about the history 1:36:56.400 --> 1:36:59.920 of the Internet is dumb. It's just a very simplified 1:37:00.080 --> 1:37:04.000 version and you don't actually look at like the interocking systems. Um. 1:37:04.040 --> 1:37:06.320 Because I mean, yeah, I don't know why he describes 1:37:06.320 --> 1:37:09.920 it this way, because it is it is like it's 1:37:10.160 --> 1:37:13.800 accurate if you squint and don't think about it. Um. 1:37:13.840 --> 1:37:16.479 But it's weird because like this article is like it's 1:37:16.520 --> 1:37:19.560 for tech bros. So I don't know why he describes 1:37:19.600 --> 1:37:21.719 it this way because I feel like he could describe 1:37:21.760 --> 1:37:24.080 it a lot more accurately, um if you if you 1:37:24.160 --> 1:37:26.479 wanted to, Well, it's something I'm gonna get into. I'm 1:37:26.520 --> 1:37:28.519 gonna say this point like twice Episode'm gonna get into 1:37:28.520 --> 1:37:31.240 the neoliberalism episodes, and I'm writing, but one of one 1:37:31.280 --> 1:37:33.640 of the key features of neoliberalisms that they lie, is 1:37:33.640 --> 1:37:35.680 that the neo liberals have to have two versions of 1:37:35.680 --> 1:37:37.280 what they believe. They have the version that they tell 1:37:37.280 --> 1:37:39.240 everyone else, which is completely a lie and is not 1:37:39.280 --> 1:37:41.040 what they believe at all. And then it has they 1:37:41.040 --> 1:37:42.679 have the version that they tell to each other, which 1:37:42.720 --> 1:37:44.920 is what they actually believe, and they completely they contradict 1:37:44.960 --> 1:37:48.320 each other completely. They mostly believe things. Everything they say 1:37:48.360 --> 1:37:50.240 in public is just a complete lie. And that I 1:37:50.240 --> 1:37:52.439 think that's what he's doing here, which is that this 1:37:52.600 --> 1:37:54.559 that like that history of the Internet is the one 1:37:54.600 --> 1:37:57.639 you sell the public consumption, because yeah, that that's that's 1:37:57.680 --> 1:37:59.599 that's the lie you tell people to take money from them. 1:38:00.040 --> 1:38:01.680 And then he has a thing that he believes but 1:38:01.800 --> 1:38:04.559 which he will not ever tell you because you know, 1:38:04.680 --> 1:38:06.519 if if if he tells you what like he actually 1:38:06.520 --> 1:38:08.120 wanted to do, you would run screaming from the room. 1:38:08.439 --> 1:38:12.200 And you can you can read between what he wants 1:38:12.240 --> 1:38:15.439 you to believe. I think is made very clear by 1:38:15.479 --> 1:38:17.719 how he divides. By the fact that when he starts 1:38:17.800 --> 1:38:19.439 like dividing up the ages of the Internet. He says, 1:38:19.479 --> 1:38:21.639 the first one is the time in which people wanted 1:38:21.680 --> 1:38:24.400 information to be free. And what he's kind of saying 1:38:24.400 --> 1:38:26.679 by doing that is thaying like that was an infant 1:38:26.720 --> 1:38:30.559 stage of the Internet, and obviously the natural evolution of 1:38:30.600 --> 1:38:33.120 the Internet is for every single thing on it to 1:38:33.160 --> 1:38:36.360 become monetized. And because I also believe the Internet should 1:38:36.360 --> 1:38:38.280 be every aspect of our lives, like this is a 1:38:38.320 --> 1:38:40.600 megaverse guy or a metaverse guy, like I think the 1:38:40.640 --> 1:38:43.760 Internet should should be involved in every aspect of life. 1:38:43.920 --> 1:38:47.560 That means every aspect of life should be financialized. Um, 1:38:47.680 --> 1:38:52.080 and that's extremely radical, but it does not sound that way. 1:38:52.160 --> 1:38:55.320 When you describe it that way, people's heads go over it. 1:38:55.320 --> 1:38:57.559 But like what he's saying is deeply radical. And I 1:38:57.600 --> 1:39:00.439 think also, like again you want to talk about like 1:39:00.479 --> 1:39:03.439 the first and not just the early age, because the 1:39:03.760 --> 1:39:05.600 first people who kind of built the backbone of the 1:39:05.640 --> 1:39:11.000 Internet were mostly like very radically anti uh capitalizing on 1:39:11.080 --> 1:39:13.400 Like there was this idea that like it absolutely should 1:39:13.439 --> 1:39:16.200 be as free as possible. Like Steve Wozniak, the guy 1:39:16.240 --> 1:39:20.680 who functionally invented the personal computer, had a background like 1:39:20.840 --> 1:39:23.839 as a phone freaker, like literally literally robbing phone companies 1:39:23.880 --> 1:39:25.680 to get like free phone calls and stuff like these, 1:39:25.960 --> 1:39:28.960 Like most of the early Internet pioneers were like some 1:39:29.080 --> 1:39:33.400 kind of criminal um and the early ages of like 1:39:33.439 --> 1:39:37.439 Internet content being monetized mostly started with people doing ship 1:39:37.640 --> 1:39:39.920 for free. Like that was how the people who made 1:39:39.960 --> 1:39:41.880 money on it. That's how all of my bosses and 1:39:41.920 --> 1:39:43.559 that's how fucking I got started. Was like you would 1:39:43.600 --> 1:39:45.200 just start making ship and you would put it out 1:39:45.200 --> 1:39:49.240 for free, and eventually like that would get enough traffic 1:39:49.280 --> 1:39:52.400 that you you you you draw ads to you and whatnot, 1:39:52.439 --> 1:39:54.960 and you'd make money. But it was always like all 1:39:54.960 --> 1:39:57.280 of the content that that made the Internet, and all 1:39:57.320 --> 1:40:00.519 of the content creators who were huge now mostly started 1:40:01.120 --> 1:40:03.280 um doing something like even it was just like throwing 1:40:03.320 --> 1:40:06.160 up videos on YouTube, right or like going on. And 1:40:06.400 --> 1:40:09.080 that's that's less the case with the zoomers now because 1:40:09.080 --> 1:40:11.639 a lot of them got started on at things like 1:40:11.640 --> 1:40:14.120 like Twitch, where the idea is to from the beginning 1:40:14.200 --> 1:40:16.880 be trying to monetize yourself and while you're like building 1:40:16.880 --> 1:40:21.000 a brand, you're constantly monetized. But that's a really recent change, 1:40:21.000 --> 1:40:23.920 and I actually I find it kind of unsettling because 1:40:23.960 --> 1:40:26.559 that was I don't know, it's a mix because I'm 1:40:26.560 --> 1:40:29.120 certainly not of the I'm not of the of the 1:40:29.120 --> 1:40:31.320 mind that like, if someone is asking you to do work, 1:40:31.320 --> 1:40:33.400 you should be getting paid for it. But if you 1:40:33.439 --> 1:40:37.000 are trying to if you are trying to like build 1:40:37.040 --> 1:40:39.599 a life as a creator, the best way to do 1:40:39.640 --> 1:40:41.800 that creatively is to just make the things that you 1:40:41.840 --> 1:40:45.800 think are cool and then make like if if other 1:40:45.880 --> 1:40:48.400 people like it, you make money. Like better things get 1:40:48.479 --> 1:40:51.120 made than that. That like that that is the way 1:40:51.160 --> 1:40:53.439 the best art gets made. I think it's a few 1:40:53.479 --> 1:40:56.240 things going on here because like the way I think, 1:40:56.400 --> 1:40:58.080 like I think actually the reason why he frames it 1:40:58.120 --> 1:41:00.080 this way is because he's trying to get back to 1:41:00.240 --> 1:41:03.160 his idea of freedom. Right he describes like the golden 1:41:03.200 --> 1:41:06.320 age of the Internet being information flowing freely. He thinks 1:41:06.360 --> 1:41:08.360 that the blockchain is a new version of that, So 1:41:08.439 --> 1:41:10.759 that's why he's framing it in this way. The second 1:41:10.760 --> 1:41:14.240 thing is in terms of artists and creators, um if 1:41:14.280 --> 1:41:16.160 you think about like yeah, like like the when the 1:41:16.200 --> 1:41:18.840 early age of what he calls like the of what 1:41:18.840 --> 1:41:20.160 we we kind of all been refraininged to it. Like 1:41:20.200 --> 1:41:22.240 the second area when like era of like when social 1:41:22.280 --> 1:41:25.720 media and like content creation like sites are a thing. 1:41:25.880 --> 1:41:29.240 It's like, just use YouTube as an example. Um. Because 1:41:29.320 --> 1:41:31.960 there was a low saturation and content, it was easier 1:41:32.000 --> 1:41:34.599 for someone to rise up and gain a platform. Let's 1:41:34.600 --> 1:41:36.479 say someone like Bo Burnham right, who started as just 1:41:36.520 --> 1:41:40.479 a kid and now is like a very popular comedian. Um. 1:41:40.520 --> 1:41:44.840 But then YouTube instead of backing creators like that, um, 1:41:45.000 --> 1:41:46.600 which they did a little bit, but they did not 1:41:46.720 --> 1:41:50.200 as much. They instead started, uh. Like the thing that 1:41:50.280 --> 1:41:55.080 happened was like, uh, YouTube really incentivizing sharing like late 1:41:55.160 --> 1:41:58.599 night content and sharing like like TV clips of TV 1:41:58.720 --> 1:42:02.200 shows and like using like doing using legacy media on 1:42:02.240 --> 1:42:04.519 their platform. And that's the things they really backed. That's 1:42:04.520 --> 1:42:06.360 the things they really pushed into your feet. It's like 1:42:06.560 --> 1:42:09.679 tonight show clips. UM. So a lot of those original 1:42:09.800 --> 1:42:12.320 original content creators kind of got left behind and now 1:42:12.600 --> 1:42:14.320 are now like just their own are running on their 1:42:14.360 --> 1:42:17.000 own personal brands. Some of them use Patreon for example. 1:42:17.360 --> 1:42:19.679 But it's also it's impossible to do this now because 1:42:19.720 --> 1:42:22.559 there's an oversaturation of content. The only thing that's done 1:42:22.560 --> 1:42:25.120 this recently is TikTok because it was a brand new platform. 1:42:25.280 --> 1:42:27.439 There was again a new opportunity for a lot of 1:42:27.520 --> 1:42:30.759 kids to gain to gain a lot of audiences really quickly. 1:42:30.960 --> 1:42:33.679 I mean, I just I to based on what you're saying, 1:42:33.680 --> 1:42:36.280 I think that like TikTok is the closest to how 1:42:37.840 --> 1:42:40.880 cool ship happened on the Internet before everything goes because 1:42:40.920 --> 1:42:43.759 because it is like, you're not starting from like everyone starts. 1:42:43.760 --> 1:42:45.479 I guess knowing you could make money, but that was 1:42:45.520 --> 1:42:47.439 the same way you start because you're like, you're doing 1:42:47.479 --> 1:42:49.760 a thing, and if that thing takes off, then there's 1:42:49.800 --> 1:42:52.960 ways to monetize and like that. Yeah, I think that's 1:42:53.000 --> 1:42:55.360 why probably white bar to white is so popular. Generally, 1:42:55.400 --> 1:42:59.200 growth on TikTok is pretty Uh, it's pretty organic. It's 1:42:59.200 --> 1:43:02.000 not it's not it's not boosted by big brands, uh, 1:43:02.120 --> 1:43:04.920 the same way stuff like YouTube is. And now it's 1:43:04.920 --> 1:43:07.280 probably gonna be edging in that direction, but it's it's 1:43:07.320 --> 1:43:09.680 it's it's not, it's it's not there yet. So and 1:43:09.800 --> 1:43:12.320 his argument in this is to get back to just 1:43:12.360 --> 1:43:15.000 being like a small content creator getting your stuff seen. 1:43:15.479 --> 1:43:17.880 His solution to this problem of like YouTube and stuff 1:43:17.920 --> 1:43:21.320 backing like these large like light night shows and backing 1:43:21.360 --> 1:43:24.240 like these large like corporately funded things. His solution is 1:43:24.240 --> 1:43:25.960 that if you're a small. If you're a small content creator, 1:43:26.120 --> 1:43:29.519 you should sell yourself as an asset to other people 1:43:29.600 --> 1:43:32.120 on the internet. Right, So, because like his his idea 1:43:32.400 --> 1:43:34.280 is that he wants to get rid of the gate 1:43:34.320 --> 1:43:36.120 keepers of the Internet and go back to how the 1:43:36.120 --> 1:43:39.200 Internet was. But his solution for doing that is just 1:43:39.240 --> 1:43:42.960 by selling you as a person brand to other people 1:43:43.000 --> 1:43:45.439 on the internet who are like tech bro investors. So 1:43:45.720 --> 1:43:48.320 that that's why it's framed this specific way. So I 1:43:48.320 --> 1:43:50.439 think when we're all like talking about like, why does 1:43:50.439 --> 1:43:52.519 he describe it this way? What's all this weird stuff 1:43:52.560 --> 1:43:56.040 going on, it's because that's how he's rationalized in his brain, 1:43:56.520 --> 1:43:59.800 is for how what he thinks being a free artist is, 1:44:00.320 --> 1:44:01.720 and he thinks this is going to be the new 1:44:01.760 --> 1:44:06.080 method to get there. There's another important sort of macro 1:44:06.280 --> 1:44:08.800 thing to think about this year, which is that the 1:44:08.920 --> 1:44:11.760 underlying basis of all of this right is the assumption 1:44:11.880 --> 1:44:15.479 that everyone is an entrepreneur. Is that you know, like 1:44:15.520 --> 1:44:17.559 every everyone is doing all of their stuff at all 1:44:17.600 --> 1:44:19.240 times because they want, you know, in order to be 1:44:19.280 --> 1:44:23.280 a business owner. And this has been like you know, this, 1:44:23.000 --> 1:44:26.240 this has been the great ideological victory of the right 1:44:26.280 --> 1:44:28.839 in the last fifty years. Is that they convinced everyone 1:44:29.520 --> 1:44:32.800 that like every single person is you know, like you're 1:44:32.960 --> 1:44:35.040 I mean, it's not even temporary embarrassed Millonary syndrome. Is 1:44:35.040 --> 1:44:38.920 like even people who are working jobs, right, like working 1:44:38.960 --> 1:44:41.960 wage labor jobs, think of themselves as you know, content creators. 1:44:42.000 --> 1:44:44.439 And a content creator, you know, is a small business owner. 1:44:44.960 --> 1:44:48.200 And this has an immensely coercive while I'll a coerse 1:44:48.280 --> 1:44:50.839 or two, but a corrosive effect on you know, anyone 1:44:50.920 --> 1:44:54.519 working together to do something because you know, oh, you're 1:44:54.560 --> 1:44:56.479 not you're not you're not a worker, You're just like 1:44:56.560 --> 1:44:58.559 you're a content creator. You're you know, you're a small 1:44:58.560 --> 1:45:02.519 business owner. You're like you know, you what and and 1:45:02.520 --> 1:45:05.599 and that's you know this, this is a very long 1:45:05.720 --> 1:45:08.920 running thing that much of incredibly powerful people have been 1:45:08.920 --> 1:45:12.680 trying to do really since like i mean arguably like 1:45:12.720 --> 1:45:17.000 the thirties. But the complete success of that and the 1:45:17.040 --> 1:45:19.320 way that you know, they're they're they're selling exactly the 1:45:19.360 --> 1:45:22.599 same thing that they were selling in like the eighties, 1:45:22.640 --> 1:45:25.000 but now it's this like you know, you're trying to 1:45:25.000 --> 1:45:27.120 get people to do it to themselves. And also they 1:45:27.120 --> 1:45:31.120 throw all of this like sort of nonsense tech jargon 1:45:31.240 --> 1:45:33.639 at you to get you to sort of like stop 1:45:33.720 --> 1:45:35.479 looking at the fact that this is just sort of 1:45:36.439 --> 1:45:39.960 you know, this is this is this is just the new, 1:45:40.120 --> 1:45:43.479 even worse version of everyone being a worker who thinks 1:45:43.520 --> 1:45:47.120 that they're like, you know, also going to be ample 1:45:47.200 --> 1:45:49.800 this owner someday. Yeah. I don't know, I don't have 1:45:49.800 --> 1:45:52.240 anything else really to say about it other than this, 1:45:52.320 --> 1:45:55.080 but like, I mean, this was a good amount to say. 1:45:55.120 --> 1:45:58.400 I just think this is so. I think it's such 1:45:58.439 --> 1:46:01.080 an example of kind of the way in which the 1:46:01.120 --> 1:46:03.880 worst people in the world are trying to steer the internet, um, 1:46:03.920 --> 1:46:07.360 and by steering the Internet, steer the soul of like 1:46:07.520 --> 1:46:11.200 the human race. Um. Like this is a vision of 1:46:11.240 --> 1:46:13.479 the future this guy is sharing and this article that 1:46:13.840 --> 1:46:17.439 isn't isn't positioning itself as radical, but includes some like 1:46:17.760 --> 1:46:20.360 deeply radical ideas about how the world should go. And 1:46:20.400 --> 1:46:22.360 by the way, I should also note that he's also 1:46:22.439 --> 1:46:24.960 just like blatantly wrong every time he brings up a number, 1:46:25.520 --> 1:46:27.519 um like he taught he He points out in this 1:46:27.600 --> 1:46:31.599 article that forty six million Americans own cryptocurrency. The real 1:46:31.680 --> 1:46:33.920 number is more likely about one million. Kind of it 1:46:33.960 --> 1:46:36.320 at most, like by every credible. I have no idea 1:46:36.360 --> 1:46:40.960 where he's getting forty six million Americans own cryptocurrency. And again, 1:46:41.120 --> 1:46:44.360 the stat just came out, and that's part of his 1:46:44.479 --> 1:46:47.640 argument is that like, obviously people love the blockchain and 1:46:47.680 --> 1:46:50.040 these tokens, and like this is this is inevitably going 1:46:50.080 --> 1:46:53.280 to get more and more popular, um and when again, 1:46:53.320 --> 1:46:55.960 the reality is that every real thing that's happening on 1:46:56.000 --> 1:46:58.840 the on the blockchain is pretty much versions of a 1:46:58.880 --> 1:47:01.439 security scam that the government has just announced they're going 1:47:01.439 --> 1:47:04.680 to finally start regulating. But yeah, I wanna so that 1:47:04.800 --> 1:47:06.960 the stet. The study that just came out today was 1:47:07.040 --> 1:47:09.920 that analysis of six point one million trades of like 1:47:10.240 --> 1:47:12.759 four point seven million in f T s. It shows 1:47:12.800 --> 1:47:15.120 that the top ten percent of traders were responsible for 1:47:16.080 --> 1:47:20.000 of trading um, which again is more evidence that all 1:47:20.000 --> 1:47:23.360 that's happening is people boosting prices. Also, the average, the 1:47:23.439 --> 1:47:26.360 vast majority like more n f T sales are for 1:47:26.439 --> 1:47:28.280 less than two hundred dollars. Some of them are for 1:47:28.360 --> 1:47:31.759 just pennies. Like what the stuff that you're hearing about 1:47:32.320 --> 1:47:36.920 is all ridiculous outliers, and its outliers specifically because people 1:47:36.920 --> 1:47:39.160 are pumping stuff up in order to try to call 1:47:39.160 --> 1:47:42.080 on someone. Um. And that's the whole basis of this 1:47:42.160 --> 1:47:46.200 guy's the structural argument, the reason that he's attempting to 1:47:46.280 --> 1:47:50.120 argue that like there's actually desire here and that this is, 1:47:50.160 --> 1:47:52.439 in fact, the future of the Internet is based entirely 1:47:52.479 --> 1:47:56.400 upon like numbers that are either bad or he's or 1:47:56.439 --> 1:48:01.160 he's deliberately using he's deliberately lying about the numbers, because 1:48:01.160 --> 1:48:04.000 there is no credible number evidence I've ever heard that 1:48:04.080 --> 1:48:07.720 forty six million Americans currently owned cryptocurrency or even have 1:48:07.800 --> 1:48:11.200 ever owned cryptocurrency. Yeah, and I think the other kind 1:48:11.240 --> 1:48:12.920 of nail on the coffin for this idea, and why 1:48:12.920 --> 1:48:14.559 I don't think it's going to catch on the same 1:48:14.600 --> 1:48:16.479 way these guys think it think it does. And this 1:48:16.560 --> 1:48:19.320 is something he acknowledges in the article is like not 1:48:19.400 --> 1:48:22.400 a lot of people know how the stockic change works, 1:48:22.400 --> 1:48:24.479 like very like he he says, I think it's like 1:48:24.520 --> 1:48:26.840 I don't know, like he I forget that what number 1:48:26.880 --> 1:48:29.320 he says, but um, but he he says, like not 1:48:29.320 --> 1:48:31.479 not tons of people actually use or know what the 1:48:31.479 --> 1:48:35.760 stockic stockic changes. Um. And the reason why Patreon was 1:48:35.800 --> 1:48:38.439 so successful and why it's so useful for content creators 1:48:38.520 --> 1:48:40.639 is because it's a very intuitive system. It's very clear 1:48:40.680 --> 1:48:42.840 how it works, it's clear what you're doing. There's no 1:48:42.880 --> 1:48:45.000 really questions about where your money is going or what's 1:48:45.040 --> 1:48:47.559 happening this. I don't think this is ever I don't 1:48:47.560 --> 1:48:49.160 think this whole personal investment thing is ever going to 1:48:49.200 --> 1:48:52.320 actually go off because people don't understand what the blockchain 1:48:52.439 --> 1:48:54.800 is and it's too much work to explain it to them. Um. 1:48:55.320 --> 1:48:57.160 And just because of how much work it is to 1:48:57.200 --> 1:48:59.599 wrap your mind around, like, so where is my money going? 1:48:59.800 --> 1:49:01.559 What do I have to set up? How does that work? 1:49:01.640 --> 1:49:03.479 That's way too much of a headache. Because in order 1:49:03.479 --> 1:49:05.400 for this to actually work, you need this to break 1:49:05.479 --> 1:49:07.559 out of the tech bro bubble or else this is 1:49:07.600 --> 1:49:10.360 just gonna be this small tech bro thing of people 1:49:10.439 --> 1:49:12.280 handing over the same one hundred dollars to all their 1:49:12.280 --> 1:49:15.120 friends in a circle, um, which is what it is currently. 1:49:15.520 --> 1:49:17.719 And I in order to break out of that circle, 1:49:18.000 --> 1:49:21.120 they need to get you know, your grandmother to learn 1:49:21.160 --> 1:49:23.920 what crypto is and how blockchains work. And that's not 1:49:23.920 --> 1:49:26.439 gonna happen. Um. So I think that is the one 1:49:26.439 --> 1:49:28.360 other nail in the coffin for this type of idea 1:49:28.960 --> 1:49:31.840 is like, Patreon is easy, Patreon makes sense. This thing 1:49:32.200 --> 1:49:35.679 it is not nearly as intuitive for supporting a YouTuber 1:49:35.720 --> 1:49:39.000 you like, yeah, oh, okay, cool. I actually found evidence 1:49:39.040 --> 1:49:42.920 on where that forty six million Americans number comes from. Yeah, 1:49:42.960 --> 1:49:45.799 so basically number one. I found like a fucking crypto 1:49:45.840 --> 1:49:49.519 news source pointing out that, like when people started tweeting 1:49:49.520 --> 1:49:52.040 that forty six million Americans is based on a study 1:49:52.040 --> 1:49:53.920 we'll talk about a second, but like when people started 1:49:53.920 --> 1:49:57.160 tweeting about this, like the immediate response in the bitcoin 1:49:57.200 --> 1:50:01.360 subreddit was like, well, that's not fucking possible. Uh, Like 1:50:01.560 --> 1:50:03.840 one of the people in the bitcoin subred it said, 1:50:03.880 --> 1:50:05.880 sounds very high. I don't know a single person who 1:50:05.920 --> 1:50:08.240 owns it. And this says woman, six or seven people 1:50:08.240 --> 1:50:12.799 own it. Yeah, And and it comes from a study 1:50:12.840 --> 1:50:16.880 conducted in January by the New York Digital Investment Group 1:50:17.600 --> 1:50:22.000 surveying a thousand participants with incomes over fifty dollars, so 1:50:23.240 --> 1:50:27.880 that that seems valid. Wait, they just said it's over 1:50:28.000 --> 1:50:32.240 fifty This okay, this method, Yeah, this this method. You 1:50:32.240 --> 1:50:34.520 will get a few like Pew released to studies suggesting 1:50:34.520 --> 1:50:38.640 that like Americans have used cryptocurrency at some point and 1:50:38.720 --> 1:50:41.559 like all of what's coming out as kind of sketchy, 1:50:41.640 --> 1:50:44.800 all of the data, there's like reasons to be kind 1:50:44.800 --> 1:50:47.360 of unsettled about it. But also like one of the 1:50:47.360 --> 1:50:49.240 things that you studies showed is that the vast majority 1:50:49.240 --> 1:50:53.960 of Americans have heard of cryptocurrency, uh, and most haven't 1:50:54.479 --> 1:50:57.080 used it, Like the vast majority have not chosen to 1:50:57.120 --> 1:51:00.479 get involved. Like, however accurate you think this is. Like, 1:51:00.520 --> 1:51:03.040 there's another article coming out that says that came out 1:51:03.040 --> 1:51:05.439 and I guess May of this year. That's said that's 1:51:05.560 --> 1:51:08.280 based on a Gemini study, which is Gemini is a 1:51:08.320 --> 1:51:11.240 crypto exchange that over fifty million Americans are likely to 1:51:11.280 --> 1:51:14.679 buy crypto in the next year. Um, which doesn't seem 1:51:14.720 --> 1:51:17.880 to have happened. Uh, Like I I just don't see. 1:51:18.320 --> 1:51:20.840 There's all sorts of like weird little studies commissioned to 1:51:20.840 --> 1:51:24.880 buy weird little groups, but it really doesn't. It seems 1:51:24.920 --> 1:51:28.200 like it's it's again kind of part of the grift. 1:51:28.360 --> 1:51:30.720 Like I'm not seeing a lot of rigor in any 1:51:30.760 --> 1:51:35.160 of this. Um anyway, whatever, We've talked enough about this ship. 1:51:35.240 --> 1:51:37.640 I just I think we all as soon as we 1:51:37.720 --> 1:51:40.080 read the article, we're so like appalled by it that 1:51:40.240 --> 1:51:42.160 what we should. Probably we talk about this for forty 1:51:42.240 --> 1:51:53.920 five minutes. Yeah. I'm Ev Rodsky, author of the New 1:51:54.000 --> 1:51:57.200 York Times bestseller fair Play and Find Your Unicorn Space, 1:51:57.520 --> 1:52:00.360 activists on the gender division of labor, a turn and 1:52:00.439 --> 1:52:03.920 family mediator. And I'm doctor adding A Rutcar, a Harvard 1:52:03.920 --> 1:52:07.000 physician and medical correspondent with an expertise and the science 1:52:07.040 --> 1:52:11.000 of stress, resilience, mental health, and burnout. We're so excited 1:52:11.040 --> 1:52:13.880 to share our podcast Time Out, a production of I 1:52:14.000 --> 1:52:18.479 Heart Podcasts and Hello Sunshine. We're uncovering why society makes 1:52:18.520 --> 1:52:20.680 it so hard for women to treat their time with 1:52:20.680 --> 1:52:23.880 the value it deserves. So take this time out with us. 1:52:24.479 --> 1:52:27.479 Listen to Time Out, a fair Play podcast on the 1:52:27.520 --> 1:52:31.120 I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get 1:52:31.160 --> 1:52:35.439 your podcasts. Raffie is the voice of some of the 1:52:35.560 --> 1:52:41.600 happiest songs of our generation, Babyga, so who is the 1:52:41.640 --> 1:52:46.600 man behind Baby Bluga. Every human being wants to feel respected. 1:52:47.000 --> 1:52:51.120 When we start with young, all good things can grow 1:52:51.200 --> 1:52:54.519 from there. I'm Chris Garcia, comedian, New Dad and host 1:52:54.560 --> 1:52:57.400 of Finding Raffie, a new podcast from my Heart Radio 1:52:57.520 --> 1:53:00.679 and Fatherly. Listen every Tuesday on the I Heart Radio 1:53:00.720 --> 1:53:04.400 app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Robert 1:53:04.439 --> 1:53:07.640 sex Reese, host of The Doctor Sex re Show, and 1:53:07.720 --> 1:53:10.880 every episode I listened to people talk about their sex 1:53:10.880 --> 1:53:14.680 and intimacy issues, and yes, I despise every minute of it. 1:53:15.120 --> 1:53:19.320 And she she made mistakes too, everyone at her wedding. 1:53:19.680 --> 1:53:22.519 But hell is real. We're all trapped here and there's 1:53:22.560 --> 1:53:25.280 nothing any of us can do about it. So join me, 1:53:25.400 --> 1:53:28.320 won't you Listen to The Doctor Sex re Show every 1:53:28.360 --> 1:53:31.360 Tuesday on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast or 1:53:31.400 --> 1:53:40.679 wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to It Could Happen Here, 1:53:40.760 --> 1:53:43.960 a podcast about how society is following apart and about 1:53:43.960 --> 1:53:46.160 how to put it back together again. I'm your host, 1:53:46.200 --> 1:53:49.200 Christopher Long and Today and for the next few days, 1:53:50.000 --> 1:53:52.639 we're doing something a bit different. We're going to take 1:53:52.640 --> 1:53:54.360 a deep dive to some of the people who got 1:53:54.439 --> 1:53:57.679 us into the mess we're in today. Now, when we've 1:53:57.680 --> 1:53:59.639 talked about our enemies and it Could Happen here, we've 1:53:59.680 --> 1:54:03.160 mostly focus on fascism, and for good reason. But for 1:54:03.240 --> 1:54:05.719 the next few days we're focusing on a different enemy. 1:54:06.280 --> 1:54:12.440 Don't worry, the Nazis will show up. That enemy is neoliberalism. 1:54:12.560 --> 1:54:15.360 Neoliberalism is the single most successful political movement of the 1:54:15.360 --> 1:54:18.800 twenty twenty For centuries, no other political movement in human 1:54:18.840 --> 1:54:21.439 history has directly controlled so much of the globe. It 1:54:21.560 --> 1:54:24.920 is outmaneuvered, outlasted, or simply destroyed every ideology that sought 1:54:24.920 --> 1:54:28.840 to oppose it, and has reigned virtually unchallenged for fifty years. 1:54:30.240 --> 1:54:33.920 After exploded on the political scene in Chili, their victory 1:54:33.920 --> 1:54:36.160 has been so total that even the earthWhile opponents, have 1:54:36.200 --> 1:54:40.200 adopted its core principles. Margaret Thatcher famously bragged that her 1:54:40.200 --> 1:54:43.680 proudest accomplishment was creating Tony Blair, basking in the irony 1:54:43.720 --> 1:54:46.560 that neoliberalism would be implemented across the globe, in large 1:54:46.600 --> 1:54:50.879 part by labor and socialist parties. Today, even erstwhile communist 1:54:50.880 --> 1:54:54.720 countries maintained so called special economic zones with the laws 1:54:54.720 --> 1:54:57.200 of neoliberalism are allowed to run rampant in exchange for 1:54:57.320 --> 1:55:00.680 GDP increases, and their communist supporters. The West have come 1:55:00.760 --> 1:55:04.040 to belief that capitalism is a far more powerful engine 1:55:04.040 --> 1:55:07.320 of economic development and the state planning advocated by their forebearers, 1:55:08.160 --> 1:55:11.200 thus internalizing the greatest principle of neoliberalism, even as they 1:55:11.200 --> 1:55:14.960 claim to oppose it. All of this, of course, raises 1:55:14.960 --> 1:55:19.240 two questions, what actually is neoliberalism and how did it 1:55:19.280 --> 1:55:22.400 come to rule the world today. We're going to try 1:55:22.440 --> 1:55:24.920 to answer the first question by looking back at the 1:55:24.960 --> 1:55:29.440 original neoliberals and examining what they believed, because it's not 1:55:29.480 --> 1:55:32.160 what you think. There are many places you can begin 1:55:32.200 --> 1:55:35.360 the story of neoliberalism. I'm choosing to start in France 1:55:35.480 --> 1:55:39.320 ninety Now, the nineteen thirties are a bad time to 1:55:39.360 --> 1:55:42.120 be a free trade market liberal. And just to clear 1:55:42.160 --> 1:55:44.840 this up, early liberal in the European context, which is 1:55:45.080 --> 1:55:47.000 where a lot of the beginning of the story takes place, 1:55:47.080 --> 1:55:48.400 does not mean the same thing as it does in 1:55:48.440 --> 1:55:51.960 the American context. European liberalism up to this point is 1:55:51.960 --> 1:55:55.400 about free trade markets, individual liberty and rights, etcetera, etcetera. 1:55:55.440 --> 1:55:59.800 But it's anti state interference. To be somewhat reductive, It's 1:56:00.160 --> 1:56:03.080 kind of closer to what conservatism is in the US, 1:56:03.160 --> 1:56:06.640 but it's not identical. So there that in mind. As 1:56:06.640 --> 1:56:10.040 the story goes on, Dirty sold the rise of fascism, 1:56:10.080 --> 1:56:13.000 social democracy, and communism, each with his own form of 1:56:13.040 --> 1:56:17.720 government spending and economic planning, which liberals absolutely detested. Now, 1:56:17.760 --> 1:56:20.400 the vent and thirties have been full of liberals gathering 1:56:20.400 --> 1:56:21.880 and try to figure out what to do next. And 1:56:21.920 --> 1:56:25.640 in ninety seven Walture Littman, an American writer who would 1:56:25.640 --> 1:56:29.200 become most famous for inventing the term Cold War, wrote 1:56:29.200 --> 1:56:31.520 a book called an Inquiry into the Principles of the 1:56:31.560 --> 1:56:35.160 Good Society, which argue that totalitarianism is a product of 1:56:35.200 --> 1:56:37.880 not having individual private property at the state needs to 1:56:37.880 --> 1:56:40.160 be limited to a ministering justice and not you know, 1:56:40.400 --> 1:56:43.440 giving people things that they need. And so a lot 1:56:43.480 --> 1:56:46.160 of liberals read this and go, oh, cool, we should 1:56:46.240 --> 1:56:48.720 organize a conference to talk about this book and our ideas. 1:56:48.800 --> 1:56:52.560 And the product is in Ete thirty Littman Colloquium. Now 1:56:52.640 --> 1:56:54.920 a bunch of extremely important near liberals show up at 1:56:54.960 --> 1:56:59.920 this conference, including one Friedrich August von Hayek, Ludwig von Mises, 1:57:00.360 --> 1:57:04.680 Wilhelm rope Key, and Alexander Rousto, and they start talking 1:57:04.720 --> 1:57:06.760 about the need for a new kind of liberalism to 1:57:06.800 --> 1:57:11.400 oppose communism, Keynesianism, fascism, and what they call Manchester or 1:57:11.480 --> 1:57:15.040 Las Fair liberalism, in which the state didn't defeat at 1:57:15.080 --> 1:57:18.840 all in political life and let the economy run an autopilot. Now, 1:57:19.160 --> 1:57:22.400 the German sociologist Alexander Rousta, who we're going to talk 1:57:22.440 --> 1:57:25.520 about more in a second comes up with the term 1:57:25.560 --> 1:57:28.120 need of liberalism to define the new set of principles 1:57:28.160 --> 1:57:31.480 that they're trying to develop, and they think the new 1:57:31.480 --> 1:57:36.000 liberalism should prioritize the price mechanism, free enterprise, the system 1:57:36.000 --> 1:57:40.840 of competition, and importantly, a strong and impartial state. Now, 1:57:41.000 --> 1:57:43.760 this is the origin of new liberalism as a term, 1:57:43.800 --> 1:57:46.600 and it's important to understand two things from the outset, 1:57:46.680 --> 1:57:48.920 because the new liberals are going to spend the next 1:57:49.000 --> 1:57:53.280 fifty years lying about this. One near liberalism favors a 1:57:53.320 --> 1:57:56.440 strong state to make the market work, and too near 1:57:56.520 --> 1:58:00.520 liberalism is not the same thing as classical liberalism. Now, 1:58:01.040 --> 1:58:04.280 new liberals essentially invented the whole I make classic a 1:58:04.280 --> 1:58:06.680 liberal thing in the fifties. But if you read the 1:58:06.680 --> 1:58:08.520 original stuff that they wrote, if you if you go 1:58:08.600 --> 1:58:11.000 back to nties, if you go back to nineteen thrties, 1:58:11.040 --> 1:58:13.200 and you read what they write, the neo liberals are 1:58:13.200 --> 1:58:15.560 extremely clear that they are not classical liberals and that 1:58:15.600 --> 1:58:19.120 in fact their political project is different from the twentieth 1:58:19.160 --> 1:58:22.840 century nineteenth century liberal project. In which the state is 1:58:22.840 --> 1:58:25.400 supposed to be a night watchman and not actually interfere 1:58:25.400 --> 1:58:29.240 in the markets at all. The neoliberals, originally before they 1:58:29.280 --> 1:58:32.320 you know, start lying about their actual origins, reject this 1:58:32.440 --> 1:58:35.480 principle and come to believe that in fact, a strong 1:58:35.560 --> 1:58:40.200 state is necessary to ensure that markets work. So now 1:58:40.240 --> 1:58:43.840 you have lenar liberalism as a thing. But nothing really 1:58:43.920 --> 1:58:47.600 happens much until after World War Two because dal were 1:58:47.640 --> 1:58:50.520 too Almost everyone is just doing state economic planning, and so, 1:58:51.280 --> 1:58:53.200 you know, all of these people rambling off to the 1:58:53.200 --> 1:58:55.839 side about how, oh, the market is the most efficient 1:58:55.840 --> 1:58:59.520 way to plan a system. Nobody listens to them because 1:58:59.640 --> 1:59:01.720 they're fighting a war, and the way you fight wars 1:59:01.800 --> 1:59:04.680 is doing state planning. And after a world war to 1:59:04.840 --> 1:59:07.760 the situation for new liberals is even worse because having 1:59:08.360 --> 1:59:12.840 gone through the experience of entire society is turning their 1:59:13.040 --> 1:59:17.600 entire economies and systems into planning agencies in order to 1:59:17.640 --> 1:59:21.240 you know, mobilize the total war effort. People after the 1:59:21.240 --> 1:59:22.840 war come back and go, oh, hey, we can do 1:59:22.920 --> 1:59:25.560 this to other parts of the economy. So this means 1:59:25.600 --> 1:59:27.880 that everyone and this is not just the communist states, 1:59:27.920 --> 1:59:30.680 this is you know, this is Britain is doing Kanesianism, 1:59:30.680 --> 1:59:34.960 They're doing planning, they're doing state welfare programs, and the 1:59:35.040 --> 1:59:38.200 New Deal is spreading also across the globe. Now, in 1:59:38.280 --> 1:59:40.800 response to all of this, hik and his allies do 1:59:40.880 --> 1:59:44.960 two things. The first is found in the Chicago School 1:59:45.000 --> 1:59:49.360 of Economics, and the second is to assemble the avengers 1:59:49.360 --> 1:59:53.520 of taking food from children the mont Peleion Society. The 1:59:53.600 --> 1:59:58.000 mont Peleion Society is the central neoliberal institution, which is 1:59:58.000 --> 2:00:00.160 a weird thing because in a lot of ways it's 2:00:00.240 --> 2:00:03.440 essentially just a closeted debate society intended to allow Neiler 2:00:03.440 --> 2:00:07.360 both to work out their political principles behind closed doors. Now, 2:00:07.880 --> 2:00:10.480 at this first meeting in n a lot of the 2:00:10.480 --> 2:00:14.560 people from the Littmann Colloquium are there, but unfortunately some 2:00:14.600 --> 2:00:16.800 of the French members of the Colloquium and some of 2:00:16.840 --> 2:00:20.840 the people from Germany had collaborated with the Nazis, so 2:00:21.200 --> 2:00:24.520 they were out. And this meant that Hiaka to find 2:00:24.560 --> 2:00:27.880 new people to bring in. And the mont Peleion Society's 2:00:27.920 --> 2:00:30.360 first meeting is the first time you actually have all 2:00:30.360 --> 2:00:32.600 three major schools of neo liberal thought in the same 2:00:32.600 --> 2:00:35.680 place at the same time. Arguing with each other, and 2:00:36.000 --> 2:00:39.080 they can't agree on shit. The only thing they can 2:00:39.120 --> 2:00:43.600 actually agree on is to look into more stuff and 2:00:43.840 --> 2:00:46.600 to get a sense of how far away from modern 2:00:46.720 --> 2:00:49.920 neoliberalism the arguments that are being had at the Montpellion 2:00:50.040 --> 2:00:54.440 Society are. The Montpellion Society has only ever once actually 2:00:54.840 --> 2:00:59.200 released a single statement stating its principles. And this statement 2:00:59.280 --> 2:01:01.040 was the only thing that be agreed on at the 2:01:01.080 --> 2:01:03.200 first meeting of the Montpellion Society. And I'm just going 2:01:03.240 --> 2:01:05.919 to read it. This is what they agreed to research. 2:01:07.120 --> 2:01:10.520 One the analysis and explanation of the present crisis so 2:01:10.560 --> 2:01:14.480 as to reflect its essential moral and economic origins. Two 2:01:14.920 --> 2:01:17.720 the redefinition of the state's functions so as to distinguish 2:01:17.760 --> 2:01:22.240 more clearly between the totalitarian and liberal order. Three methods 2:01:22.240 --> 2:01:24.680 of re establishing the rule of law and assuring its 2:01:24.680 --> 2:01:27.440 developments that individuals and groups are not in a position 2:01:27.440 --> 2:01:30.560 to encroach upon the freedom of others and private property 2:01:30.640 --> 2:01:33.680 rights are not allowed to become a basis of predatory power. 2:01:34.800 --> 2:01:39.040 Four the possibility of establishing minimum standards by means not 2:01:39.120 --> 2:01:43.240 inimical to initiative and the functioning of the market. Five 2:01:43.480 --> 2:01:46.280 Methods of combating the misuse of history for the furtherance 2:01:46.320 --> 2:01:50.200 of creeds hostiles of liberty. Six, the problem of creating 2:01:50.200 --> 2:01:53.760 an international order conductive to safeguarding of peace and liberty 2:01:53.760 --> 2:01:58.120 and permitting the establishment of harmonious international economic relations. You know, 2:01:58.280 --> 2:02:00.480 just by looking at this you can immediate least see 2:02:00.480 --> 2:02:03.600 signs of how far things are going to move. I mean, 2:02:04.320 --> 2:02:05.680 you know what one of one of the things that 2:02:05.720 --> 2:02:09.080 they're talking about is again they're trying to research whether 2:02:09.160 --> 2:02:12.040 or not it's possible to just give people things without 2:02:12.120 --> 2:02:15.440 the markets, and it's it's it's not just the sort 2:02:15.440 --> 2:02:17.760 of left quote unquote wing of the neoliberals who are 2:02:17.800 --> 2:02:21.600 arguing about this. Hyak In, in probably his most famous book, 2:02:21.600 --> 2:02:23.960 The Road to Serve Them, i mean explicitly says, yeah, 2:02:24.000 --> 2:02:27.160 you should just give people food and housing and stuff 2:02:27.200 --> 2:02:31.240 outside of the market. And you know, like today, if 2:02:31.400 --> 2:02:33.920 literally anyone who says this will be accused of socialism. 2:02:33.920 --> 2:02:36.000 This is the neoliberal This is you know, a large 2:02:36.000 --> 2:02:41.400 part of the neoliberal position in now I've mentioned briefly 2:02:42.120 --> 2:02:45.400 that there are three schools of neoliberalism, and we're going 2:02:45.440 --> 2:02:47.440 to spend some time looking at them because people have 2:02:47.560 --> 2:02:51.160 a tendency to look at neoliberalism and assume that, oh, 2:02:51.280 --> 2:02:54.840 it's it's it's just the Chicago School of Economics, you know, 2:02:54.880 --> 2:02:58.000 which is the neo classical schools most familes members Melton Friedman. 2:02:58.280 --> 2:03:01.800 And it's true that that's Chicago's wool are neoliberals. But 2:03:02.040 --> 2:03:05.800 and and this is critical, there's other intellectual schools involved 2:03:05.800 --> 2:03:09.560 in here. And it's not just it's not just economists. 2:03:09.680 --> 2:03:13.400 Neoliberalism from the beginning is a multi disciplinary international project. 2:03:13.680 --> 2:03:16.040 You have lawyers, you have political scientists, you have journalists, 2:03:16.040 --> 2:03:20.360 you have philosophers, you have anthropologists. And the product of 2:03:20.400 --> 2:03:23.120 this is something is an ideology and a philosophy that 2:03:23.200 --> 2:03:26.800 is much deeper, much richer, and much more dangerous than 2:03:26.840 --> 2:03:30.000 just Chicago School alone. The second of the major schools 2:03:30.040 --> 2:03:33.320 is the Austrian School, which is led by Ludovine Musas 2:03:33.320 --> 2:03:38.240 and Hyak and maybe most importantly but least well known, 2:03:38.720 --> 2:03:41.960 the third school that we're actually going to be talking 2:03:41.960 --> 2:03:45.240 about today is the German Ordo Liberals, led by Alexander Rousteau, 2:03:45.280 --> 2:03:49.760 who again invented determina liberalism, and Wilheim Ropek, who almost 2:03:49.840 --> 2:03:52.040 no one has ever heard of, but are incredibly important 2:03:52.640 --> 2:03:55.320 and I'm gonna I'm gonna insert a disclaimer here before 2:03:55.360 --> 2:03:57.560 I get yelled at by by nerds. Yes, I'm aware 2:03:57.600 --> 2:03:59.520 of the public choice theories at the Virginia School. I 2:03:59.560 --> 2:04:01.200 am also aware of at a group of the Dealer 2:04:01.200 --> 2:04:03.000 building is called the Geneva School, even though they're just 2:04:03.040 --> 2:04:06.560 regular or to liberals. And there's also the rump of 2:04:06.560 --> 2:04:09.480 the neo institutionalists. Um, I don't care about them because 2:04:09.480 --> 2:04:12.000 they're not irrelevant to this story. Please do not you 2:04:12.240 --> 2:04:16.440 yell at me on Twitter. Now, these people have wildly 2:04:16.560 --> 2:04:19.840 divergent beliefs, and so I'm gonna do my best to 2:04:19.880 --> 2:04:23.800 do one sentence summaries of what these people believe. So 2:04:24.120 --> 2:04:29.120 the Chicago School of Neo classical Economics, humans are all knowing, 2:04:29.320 --> 2:04:32.680 calculating gods, rationally optimizing their behavior to get the most 2:04:32.680 --> 2:04:35.720 out of every single human interaction they engage in to 2:04:35.800 --> 2:04:38.920 maximize the utility the product of this infinite freedom to 2:04:39.000 --> 2:04:44.280 choose economic equilibrium. The Austrian school, humans are pig, ignorant 2:04:44.320 --> 2:04:46.760 fox you know literally nothing and therefore mostly made to 2:04:46.800 --> 2:04:49.480 bow down to the everag changing disequilibrium of the market, 2:04:49.720 --> 2:04:52.000 which is the only thing that can actually process information 2:04:53.360 --> 2:04:57.480 order liberalism. The markets won't create or balance itself because 2:04:57.520 --> 2:05:00.680 these uncultured proletarian swine keep asking for raises instead of 2:05:00.680 --> 2:05:02.520 focusing on the magic of the families. So we have 2:05:02.600 --> 2:05:04.600 to use the state and laws to force people and 2:05:04.640 --> 2:05:07.640 companies to do competition. And these are obviously some what 2:05:07.720 --> 2:05:11.560 comical summaries of it, but these are very very different 2:05:12.080 --> 2:05:15.560 conceptions of what it is to be a human, of 2:05:15.680 --> 2:05:23.600 whether the market occurs naturally or not, of what the 2:05:23.680 --> 2:05:26.280 market actually is. Is it a product? Is is it 2:05:26.280 --> 2:05:28.000 an object in and of itself? Is it a product? 2:05:28.080 --> 2:05:31.200 Is it just an inevitable product of humans doing whatever 2:05:31.280 --> 2:05:35.360 humans do? And this is part of the reason why 2:05:35.360 --> 2:05:38.000 it's always almost impossible to get the original neoliberal s 2:05:38.000 --> 2:05:42.120 degree into anything. But this is actually one of the 2:05:42.120 --> 2:05:45.760 strength of the neoliberal project. The project only works because 2:05:45.760 --> 2:05:47.680 it uses the products of all three branches. You have 2:05:47.720 --> 2:05:50.160 neo classical attacks on the welfare state, Austrian attacks on 2:05:50.200 --> 2:05:52.640 sexual planning and order, liberal theories of the state, and 2:05:52.760 --> 2:05:56.440 sort of cultural on the non economic nature of markets. 2:05:56.560 --> 2:06:00.160 And you know, when one school essentially fails as an 2:06:00.200 --> 2:06:03.000 explanation for something, they can jomp to another school and 2:06:03.120 --> 2:06:07.040 this gives them a very wide range of ability to 2:06:07.160 --> 2:06:11.360 move between crises and moved between people attacking any of 2:06:11.400 --> 2:06:13.920 the individual schools because they can simply pull out another 2:06:13.920 --> 2:06:17.080 set of theories. So I'm going to talk a little 2:06:17.120 --> 2:06:19.200 bit more about each of the schools, and we're gonna 2:06:19.200 --> 2:06:21.560 start with the Chicago School because again it's the most famous, 2:06:22.480 --> 2:06:25.120 and because I think there's a there's another very interesting 2:06:25.120 --> 2:06:31.080 story here into how the Chicago School change from much origins. 2:06:31.120 --> 2:06:33.520 So one of the people who was supposed to be 2:06:33.560 --> 2:06:35.840 a founding member of the Chicago School was a manner 2:06:35.840 --> 2:06:40.000 in Henry Simmons, and Simmons is unlike the rest of 2:06:40.000 --> 2:06:43.440 the Chicago School because he actually believes in things. So 2:06:43.560 --> 2:06:47.400 I'm going to read a couple of quotes from him. Thus, 2:06:47.520 --> 2:06:50.520 the great enemy of democracy is monopoly in all its forms, 2:06:50.680 --> 2:06:54.080 gigantic corporate trade associations and other agencies of price control, 2:06:54.560 --> 2:06:58.880 trade unions, or in general organization and concentration of power 2:06:58.960 --> 2:07:02.960 within functional classes. Here's another one. A monopolist is an 2:07:02.960 --> 2:07:05.840 implicit thief because this possession of market power leads the 2:07:05.840 --> 2:07:08.680 exchange of commodities at prices that do not reflect underlying 2:07:08.720 --> 2:07:12.920 social scarcities. And you know, you can see this sort 2:07:12.960 --> 2:07:15.240 of on one of one of the classic neliberal arguments, 2:07:15.240 --> 2:07:17.360 which is that okay, so you have you have, you 2:07:17.400 --> 2:07:19.920 have the market, the market is efficient, and trade unions 2:07:19.920 --> 2:07:21.720 get in the way of the market because the monopoly. 2:07:22.320 --> 2:07:26.200 But Simmons has what kind of looks like from from 2:07:26.200 --> 2:07:28.920 our prospective of left wink critique of of monopolies, which is, yeah, okay, 2:07:28.960 --> 2:07:32.120 giant corp monopolies are thieves because they use their market 2:07:32.120 --> 2:07:38.080 power to rob people by charging higher prices, and it's 2:07:38.240 --> 2:07:42.160 it's I genuinely can't say how differently things would have 2:07:42.200 --> 2:07:45.440 gone if Simmons had actually been around to see the 2:07:45.480 --> 2:07:48.440 Chicago's go through, because he commits suicide in neteen forty six, 2:07:49.800 --> 2:07:54.040 and unlike every single other person who was going to 2:07:54.080 --> 2:07:56.960 be involved with the Chicago School from the beginning until now, 2:07:57.320 --> 2:08:01.400 Simmons had a genuine commitment to democracy and monopoly principles. 2:08:01.440 --> 2:08:04.200 But unfortunately he's he dies in next four six and 2:08:04.240 --> 2:08:05.840 by the by, the Trogol School is really up and 2:08:05.960 --> 2:08:08.600 running in the fifties. Almost everyone involved in it is 2:08:08.640 --> 2:08:11.720 overtly pro monopoly, pro cooperation and are you know that 2:08:11.760 --> 2:08:13.640 they set up an anti trust school. But the thing 2:08:13.640 --> 2:08:15.960 that the anti trust School is arguing is that monopolies 2:08:16.080 --> 2:08:19.400 are actually essentially impossible because competition will just take care 2:08:19.400 --> 2:08:22.560 of everything, and if you try to stop monopolies from happening, 2:08:22.560 --> 2:08:26.080 it will interfere in the economy. Now, this is this 2:08:26.160 --> 2:08:28.640 is the line that Milton Friedman takes, and it's also 2:08:28.720 --> 2:08:32.360 the line of the Vulcar Fund, who are a sort 2:08:32.360 --> 2:08:34.959 of I guess you could call him a charitable organization, 2:08:35.000 --> 2:08:38.960 but it's basically a billionaire slush funds that funds the school, 2:08:39.760 --> 2:08:43.200 and they've had real fights with Simmons because Simmons is like, well, okay, 2:08:43.240 --> 2:08:45.600 monopolies are bad. At Vulcars like, well, we're a monopoly, 2:08:46.160 --> 2:08:48.280 so you guys need to actually work for us. And 2:08:48.320 --> 2:08:51.560 by the time Freedman essentially takes over the Chicago School 2:08:51.680 --> 2:08:55.440 and uh night take it over, they're not just intellectual mercenaries. 2:08:55.440 --> 2:08:58.160 They're extremely proud of the fact that they are in 2:08:58.200 --> 2:09:02.480 fact pure intellectual mercenary acts with absolutely dogsheit economics. If 2:09:02.520 --> 2:09:05.280 you've ever read just a or you know, if you've 2:09:05.320 --> 2:09:08.680 ever been forced to take an economics class, you took microeconomics. 2:09:09.080 --> 2:09:12.360 That's basically just what Chicogoic School believes. It's everyone's a 2:09:12.440 --> 2:09:15.720 rational actor. Every every human being spends all of their 2:09:15.760 --> 2:09:18.400 time trying to calculate the maximum utility of anything that 2:09:18.440 --> 2:09:21.240 they do. Everything is a market. Everything functions by supply 2:09:21.280 --> 2:09:25.840 and demand. Markets are perfectly efficient if you just let 2:09:25.920 --> 2:09:28.720 them alone and don't interfere with them. Everything the state 2:09:28.760 --> 2:09:32.000 does interfered with the markets, et cetera, excepted. This is 2:09:33.440 --> 2:09:35.800 this is the thing that is sort of classically understood 2:09:35.840 --> 2:09:39.360 to be neoliberalisms core content. But it's extremely important to 2:09:39.400 --> 2:09:42.520 understand that these are not the only neoliberals, and in fact, 2:09:42.680 --> 2:09:46.040 not only are these not the only neoliberals, this set 2:09:46.040 --> 2:09:48.880 of political principles, to a large extent, is not what 2:09:48.920 --> 2:09:52.120 the neoliberals actually believe. This kind of stuff is essentially 2:09:52.120 --> 2:09:55.360 what they feed the roots. Small state tax is bad, 2:09:55.440 --> 2:09:59.040 regulation bad. Everything is a market and has always been 2:09:59.040 --> 2:10:01.879 a market, and all human interactions will in nevitably produce markets. 2:10:02.720 --> 2:10:06.200 But to understand what new liberals actually believe, we need 2:10:06.240 --> 2:10:09.680 to talk about the order liberals. Now, the two most 2:10:09.720 --> 2:10:13.920 important order liberals are Wilheim rope K and W. W. Roustau, 2:10:14.120 --> 2:10:17.400 who were both exilis during the Nazi regime. Now, a 2:10:17.440 --> 2:10:21.080 lot of the other Order Liberals who stayed in Nazi 2:10:21.120 --> 2:10:23.560 Germany collaborated with the Nazi regime, which is something that's 2:10:23.640 --> 2:10:25.760 kind of just overlooked and brush to the side when 2:10:25.760 --> 2:10:28.920 people are right about them. But grope Key and Rosseau's 2:10:28.920 --> 2:10:32.160 status as people who you know, fled the Nazis gives 2:10:32.200 --> 2:10:35.040 them a kind of social cache that their colleagues don't have, 2:10:35.080 --> 2:10:39.240 and they become extremely important. Now. In some ways, the 2:10:39.360 --> 2:10:42.400 Order Liberals could be considered the left wing of of 2:10:42.600 --> 2:10:47.839 the neoliberals. They are significantly less harsh on the welfare 2:10:47.880 --> 2:10:50.240 state than other forms of neoliberalism, and this is in 2:10:50.360 --> 2:10:53.640 large part because the Order Liberals are the first new 2:10:53.640 --> 2:10:56.800 liberals to ever actually hold any power. And I think 2:10:56.800 --> 2:10:58.560 people most people tend to think that the first time 2:10:58.560 --> 2:11:00.760 the liberalism was ever implemented was Chile, but that's not 2:11:00.840 --> 2:11:04.280 really true. The Order Liberals are actually very powerful in 2:11:04.280 --> 2:11:08.440 in nineteen fifties Germany. Now, the problem they face is 2:11:08.480 --> 2:11:13.040 that the left is powerful enough in Germany that they 2:11:13.040 --> 2:11:17.720 cannot actually just completely eliminate the welfare states. So their 2:11:17.760 --> 2:11:21.200 solution is to create this thing called the social markets, 2:11:21.320 --> 2:11:24.320 and the Order Liberals get accused of like being crypto 2:11:24.400 --> 2:11:27.000 socialists by a lot of the other Neil liberals, but 2:11:27.040 --> 2:11:30.280 that's not really what's going on. The very important thing 2:11:30.280 --> 2:11:32.760 about the Order Liberals is that, unlike the Chicago School, 2:11:32.920 --> 2:11:37.280 they're not economists both Rocke and Rousto or social scientists. 2:11:37.320 --> 2:11:42.640 Russo's a sociologist, and they argue that the state and 2:11:42.680 --> 2:11:46.320 the market alone cannot maintain market society because market society 2:11:46.320 --> 2:11:51.040 produces dislocation, you know, produces atomization, It destroys social cohesion, 2:11:51.680 --> 2:11:54.920 and this means that you need a social, political, and 2:11:54.960 --> 2:11:58.960 sort of cultural framework to maintain it. And their major 2:11:59.040 --> 2:12:02.880 focus is on providing stability and security for the working 2:12:02.920 --> 2:12:05.560 class and a new sense of sort of identity and 2:12:05.600 --> 2:12:08.480 cultural caotiation, because I think if the working class is 2:12:08.520 --> 2:12:12.440 essentially left to itself, it will create massification, cultural decay, 2:12:12.720 --> 2:12:15.800 and eventually the working class return into the proletariat, and 2:12:15.800 --> 2:12:19.040 that will give these either communism or fascism. The Order 2:12:19.080 --> 2:12:21.520 liberals believe that there's there's there's a kind of natural 2:12:21.560 --> 2:12:24.640 hierarchical order that they're trying to preserve. That this is 2:12:25.360 --> 2:12:29.879 essentially what order means. It means literally order which accords 2:12:29.880 --> 2:12:31.960 with the essence of humans. This means an order in 2:12:32.000 --> 2:12:36.520 which proportioned measure and balance exists. Now they have a 2:12:36.560 --> 2:12:38.760 few ways that they're going to do this rope case 2:12:38.760 --> 2:12:42.560 obsessed with something called structural policy. And structural policy is 2:12:42.600 --> 2:12:44.400 basically the argument that the conditions from markets have to 2:12:44.440 --> 2:12:48.600 be specifically created, and again they're not just economic positions 2:12:48.600 --> 2:12:54.640 of social conditions. And this is fused with Risteau's vital politique, 2:12:55.000 --> 2:12:58.840 which is essentially about that the power of anthropological and 2:12:58.920 --> 2:13:02.120 human aspects of culture and politics be on the forces 2:13:02.120 --> 2:13:05.040 of production that they think are vital sort of the 2:13:05.040 --> 2:13:08.120 functioning of society. And part of what they're doing here 2:13:08.200 --> 2:13:10.280 is that they want to give some people a cultural 2:13:10.320 --> 2:13:13.040 thing to focus on, so they stopped talking about like 2:13:13.160 --> 2:13:17.040 wages and welfare and who owns production. But the combination 2:13:17.160 --> 2:13:20.880 of vital politic and structural policy gets you order liberalism. 2:13:20.920 --> 2:13:23.400 So nominally they focus on individuals, but really what they're 2:13:23.400 --> 2:13:26.600 focusing on as the family as this quote unquote decentralized 2:13:26.600 --> 2:13:30.960 engine of economic capitalism with small businesses and hopefully small 2:13:30.960 --> 2:13:33.440 family farms as a sort of a political social support 2:13:33.440 --> 2:13:36.520 base for capitalism, which they're they're they're going to promote 2:13:36.560 --> 2:13:39.240 and set against the radicalism of the sort of industrial proletariat. 2:13:41.360 --> 2:13:43.960 And this this sort of middle class that they're aspiring 2:13:43.960 --> 2:13:46.120 to build is extremely important for a number of reasons. 2:13:46.160 --> 2:13:49.240 Partially is a way to diffuse working class tension, Partially 2:13:49.280 --> 2:13:51.400 as a way to sort of offers work or something 2:13:51.520 --> 2:13:54.280 inspired to and partly as a way to fuse the 2:13:54.320 --> 2:13:58.800 sort of traditional natural hierarchy with conceptions and meritocracy. Now 2:13:59.640 --> 2:14:05.080 group in particular also begins to look for systems outside 2:14:05.080 --> 2:14:08.880 of just the democratic state to sort of create this 2:14:09.000 --> 2:14:13.320 legal apparatus that the neoliberals want to use to impose markets. 2:14:13.520 --> 2:14:17.960 And this is extremely important because a lot of where 2:14:18.000 --> 2:14:20.959 neoliberalism whys are coming from is not from national governments. 2:14:21.040 --> 2:14:23.280 It's from the sort of international bureaucracy. It's from the 2:14:23.280 --> 2:14:25.240 I m F. It's from the World Bank, it's from 2:14:25.640 --> 2:14:30.200 the World Trade Organization. And those groups are controlled by 2:14:30.280 --> 2:14:33.120 by neoliberal lawyers. And Rock is the person who essentially 2:14:33.120 --> 2:14:37.280 first has this idea. Now, the goal of using these 2:14:37.280 --> 2:14:40.640 international legal institutions as a way of creating law, the 2:14:40.720 --> 2:14:43.440 laws to sort of enforce neoliberalism, is using it as 2:14:43.480 --> 2:14:45.320 a way to sort of get around democracy. And I'm 2:14:45.320 --> 2:14:50.240 going to read this quote from Rock, because oh boy, 2:14:50.640 --> 2:14:53.720 does he absolutely not believe in freedom and democracy and 2:14:53.760 --> 2:14:57.919 the way that he and everyone else talks about publicly. 2:14:58.800 --> 2:15:01.680 It is possible that in opinion of the strong state, 2:15:02.120 --> 2:15:08.040 I am even more fascist, fascististure than you yourself, because 2:15:08.080 --> 2:15:11.080 I would indeed like to see all economic policy decisions 2:15:11.120 --> 2:15:14.280 concentrated in the hand of a fully independent and vigorous state, 2:15:14.320 --> 2:15:18.000 weakened by no pluralist authorities of a corporative kind. I 2:15:18.040 --> 2:15:21.080 see the strength of the state in the intensity, not extensiveness, 2:15:21.120 --> 2:15:24.920 of its economic policies. How the constitutional legal structure of 2:15:24.920 --> 2:15:27.160 such a state should be designed as a question in 2:15:27.200 --> 2:15:30.000 and of itself, for which I have no patent receipt 2:15:30.000 --> 2:15:33.839 to offer. I share your opinion that the old formulas 2:15:33.880 --> 2:15:37.640 of parliamentary democracy have proven themselves useless. People must get 2:15:37.720 --> 2:15:39.680 used to the fact that there is also a presidential 2:15:39.720 --> 2:15:46.000 authoritarian even yes, horrible thing to say, dictatorial democracy. So 2:15:46.360 --> 2:15:49.160 what he's saying there is that he's he's he's he's 2:15:49.320 --> 2:15:50.960 sending a letter to one of you his friends, and 2:15:51.000 --> 2:15:53.720 he's going, yeah, I'm I'm even more fascist than you are. 2:15:53.800 --> 2:15:57.280 I think that democracy is actually a threat to the market, 2:15:57.720 --> 2:16:00.600 and that in order to avoid authoritarian democracy, we should 2:16:00.600 --> 2:16:03.480 in fact, concentrate all economic decision making power in a 2:16:03.600 --> 2:16:06.040 in the hands of a narrow elite in a strong state, 2:16:06.640 --> 2:16:09.000 which is, you know, the opposite of everything that near 2:16:09.040 --> 2:16:12.760 liberals open the claim to be supporting, but behind closed doors. 2:16:13.160 --> 2:16:15.040 And we will get into more of this in a second. 2:16:15.200 --> 2:16:19.920 This is what they actually believe. Now. Rok is somewhat 2:16:20.000 --> 2:16:22.760 unique among neo liberals in that he is racist by 2:16:22.800 --> 2:16:27.520 neoliberal standards. He's just enormously incredibly racist. So for example, 2:16:27.560 --> 2:16:32.640 he's he's a massive apartheid dude. And again I need 2:16:32.640 --> 2:16:35.039 to point this out. Ka is one of the things, 2:16:35.040 --> 2:16:36.840 is one of the most important neoliberals. He's one of 2:16:36.879 --> 2:16:39.600 the founding members of the Mompellion Society, although he gets 2:16:40.040 --> 2:16:42.879 kicked out for well, he eventually leaves because of some 2:16:43.440 --> 2:16:47.400 disputes he as with Hyak. But you know, I'm gonna 2:16:47.400 --> 2:16:49.600 read some of the things that he says about South 2:16:49.640 --> 2:16:53.840 Africa because they're horrible. Quote the South African negro is 2:16:53.879 --> 2:16:56.320 not only a man of an utterly different race, but 2:16:56.480 --> 2:16:59.280 at the same time stems from a completely different type 2:16:59.280 --> 2:17:03.240 and level of realization. He also calls ending apartheid quote 2:17:03.360 --> 2:17:06.840 national suicide. And you know, so she starts saying this stuff, 2:17:06.879 --> 2:17:09.480 and the other neoliberals are like, dude, what the fuck? 2:17:09.840 --> 2:17:11.920 So that the o liberal he needs newspaper like he 2:17:11.959 --> 2:17:14.800 wrote for for thirty years, which is like what's and 2:17:14.800 --> 2:17:18.120 published a bunch of students going stop this. This is 2:17:18.920 --> 2:17:21.640 you cannot seriously be supporting a parteid like this. And 2:17:21.800 --> 2:17:24.000 his response in the newspaper is called the n ZZ 2:17:24.120 --> 2:17:27.000 and his response is quote these n z Z near 2:17:27.360 --> 2:17:29.920 intellectuals will not be satisfied until they let a real 2:17:30.000 --> 2:17:33.560 cannibals speak. Now Roque is one of his friends, another 2:17:33.640 --> 2:17:37.960 MPs member named Hundled. So Hayak looks at ropek support 2:17:38.000 --> 2:17:40.320 for apartheid and is like what the fuck? Like no, 2:17:40.480 --> 2:17:44.280 absolutely not, Like this is horrible. Why why are you 2:17:44.320 --> 2:17:46.400 doing this? You know? To too high? X credit that 2:17:46.480 --> 2:17:47.840 this This is the extent of the credit I will 2:17:47.840 --> 2:17:51.280 give Hiek in this episode, is that he looks at 2:17:51.280 --> 2:17:53.920 just the open overt racism of Rocaine is like no. 2:17:54.800 --> 2:17:59.959 And when when he does this Roque's friends Hundled said, 2:18:00.040 --> 2:18:03.240 is that Hyatt quote now advocates one man, one vote 2:18:03.240 --> 2:18:07.080 in race mixing. Now, you can see a lot of 2:18:07.080 --> 2:18:11.680 things here about okay that are extremely scary. And one 2:18:11.760 --> 2:18:15.480 of those things is that the language that she's speaking 2:18:15.720 --> 2:18:21.640 this uh, the West is committing national suicide, uh, clash 2:18:21.640 --> 2:18:26.160 of civilizations, race war stuff. You know, this is this 2:18:26.200 --> 2:18:30.000 is essentially the the I mean literally, the national suicide 2:18:30.000 --> 2:18:32.400 thing is what white nationalists say today. And Ropek is 2:18:32.440 --> 2:18:34.039 in a lot of ways of right nationalist. He's just 2:18:34.040 --> 2:18:39.359 sort of a German one. But what's what's really scary 2:18:39.720 --> 2:18:43.800 about rope Ka is that she's not sort of bound 2:18:43.959 --> 2:18:45.959 by by the sort of strictures of of of a 2:18:45.959 --> 2:18:48.600 neo classic cogo neo classical economists. For example, he won't 2:18:48.600 --> 2:18:51.720 propose that like the dating market, like like dating should 2:18:51.720 --> 2:18:53.640 be on market, and that rich like men should be 2:18:53.640 --> 2:18:57.760 able to like I go on an app and like 2:18:57.760 --> 2:19:00.520 like every every every single time of person gets into 2:19:00.560 --> 2:19:02.600 a relationship, it should just be entirely based on market 2:19:02.640 --> 2:19:05.560 exchange and stuff like that, because you know, he doesn't 2:19:05.600 --> 2:19:07.560 think like an economist. He thinks about cultural factors, he 2:19:07.600 --> 2:19:13.600 thinks about sort of social factors. But he also he's 2:19:13.640 --> 2:19:16.480 cracked the code for how neliberalism is going to be implemented. 2:19:16.520 --> 2:19:20.840 The way you do neoliberalism is near liberalism plus racism 2:19:20.879 --> 2:19:24.879 and he realizes that you need you know, neoliberalisms, actual 2:19:25.040 --> 2:19:31.520 sort of policies right will cause atomization, will cause social dislocation, 2:19:31.560 --> 2:19:35.480 will cause that the existing social structures to society sort 2:19:35.520 --> 2:19:37.959 of implode. And he realizes that in order to get 2:19:37.959 --> 2:19:39.720 this to work, you need you need a spiritual base, 2:19:39.840 --> 2:19:43.400 You need some kind of new thing that you can 2:19:43.520 --> 2:19:45.760 use to to to sort of bring all these people together. 2:19:46.640 --> 2:19:52.360 And he picks Catholicism, which doesn't work because I mean, 2:19:52.360 --> 2:19:54.840 there's never reason for this, but you know, partially it's 2:19:54.879 --> 2:19:58.320 too early. Partially it's because he picks Catholicism and not evangelicalism. 2:19:58.360 --> 2:20:00.840 But this is how the new liberals are eventually going 2:20:00.879 --> 2:20:03.520 to take power by you know, aligning themselves with the 2:20:03.560 --> 2:20:06.280 evangelicals who promised to solve the atomization they're creating with 2:20:06.320 --> 2:20:10.680 you know, religion and family in the patriarchy. And he 2:20:10.840 --> 2:20:16.680 figures this out in like the sixties, but was just 2:20:16.720 --> 2:20:18.480 you know, like twenty years before the rest of the 2:20:18.600 --> 2:20:23.600 levels figured out. Now there's the he also, Okay, has 2:20:23.640 --> 2:20:25.480 like a bunch of very similar stuff that he thinks 2:20:25.480 --> 2:20:30.600 about this about Rhodesia, but interestingly, he has more support 2:20:30.680 --> 2:20:33.120 for his positions on Rhodesia than he does for his 2:20:33.160 --> 2:20:36.119 positions in South Africa. And now I'm gonna we're gonna 2:20:36.200 --> 2:20:38.480 jump back to Chicago School. We're gonna read some Milton 2:20:38.560 --> 2:20:44.480 Friedman stuff about Rhodesia, because dear God, quote majority rule 2:20:44.560 --> 2:20:47.880 for Rhodesia today is a euphemism for a black minority government, 2:20:48.240 --> 2:20:50.920 which would almost surely mean both the eviction or exodus 2:20:50.920 --> 2:20:53.840 of most of the whites and also a jurastically lower 2:20:53.959 --> 2:20:57.160 living level and opportunity for the black masses of Rhodesia. 2:20:57.760 --> 2:21:01.039 Here's another one where he's describing this system of one person, 2:21:01.160 --> 2:21:05.000 one vote, quote, a system of highly weighted voting in 2:21:05.000 --> 2:21:08.000 which special interests of far greater role to play than 2:21:08.040 --> 2:21:11.680 does the general interest. Yeah, so that's the decryption of 2:21:11.720 --> 2:21:15.800 what democracy is. In contrast, he thinks the market economy 2:21:15.879 --> 2:21:21.200 is quote a system of effective proportional representation. Now Freedman 2:21:21.320 --> 2:21:24.359 also thinks that, you know, so, so there's there's a blockade, 2:21:24.560 --> 2:21:29.160 like an economic blockade of Rhodesia going on because their Rhodesia, 2:21:29.280 --> 2:21:33.240 and they are maybe the worst people ever. That's plic 2:21:34.480 --> 2:21:37.039 only only in bild exaggeration. Yeah, it's just you know, 2:21:37.200 --> 2:21:42.320 absolutely fanatical, like what the promises government. And Freedman also 2:21:42.360 --> 2:21:45.480 calls the isolation of Rhodesia quote the suicide of the West. 2:21:46.800 --> 2:21:51.440 And you know he's doing this on racial lines, but 2:21:51.640 --> 2:21:57.080 he's also doing this along the lines of this argument 2:21:57.160 --> 2:22:01.040 that democracy itself is actually bad, and this is the 2:22:01.040 --> 2:22:04.160 place that he can express it because you know, he 2:22:04.240 --> 2:22:07.039 can leverage racism to get away with it. And I'm 2:22:07.040 --> 2:22:11.480 going to read another freedoman quote because I think it's 2:22:11.520 --> 2:22:15.920 it's important to understand what the neoliberals actually think about democracy. Quote. 2:22:16.240 --> 2:22:19.320 This was sometimes admitted by members of Mount Pelion in public, 2:22:19.680 --> 2:22:23.000 but only when they felt that their program was in 2:22:23.080 --> 2:22:25.840 the sense, let's be clear, I don't believe in democracy 2:22:25.840 --> 2:22:28.640 in one sense. You don't believe in democracy. Nobody believes 2:22:28.640 --> 2:22:31.520 in democracy. You will find it hard to find anybody 2:22:31.520 --> 2:22:34.200 who will say that if democracy is interpreted as a 2:22:34.240 --> 2:22:36.760 majority rule, you will find it hard to find anybody 2:22:36.760 --> 2:22:40.480 who will say that of the people believe the other 2:22:41.360 --> 2:22:44.400 pcent of people should be shot, that's an appropriate exercise 2:22:44.440 --> 2:22:47.240 of democracy. But I believe is not a democracy but 2:22:47.280 --> 2:22:50.480 an individual freedom in a society in which individuals corroperate 2:22:50.520 --> 2:22:54.119 with one another. So he's he's making a sort of 2:22:54.320 --> 2:22:56.959 what's in some ways a kind of anarcristy argument against democracy, 2:22:57.040 --> 2:22:59.000 which is that like, yeah, okay, so if you interpret 2:22:59.040 --> 2:23:01.240 democracy is premature at the rule that a majority can 2:23:01.240 --> 2:23:04.400 just do a terrible thing the minority. But you know 2:23:04.440 --> 2:23:06.840 what the neo lipperals actually mean by this is that 2:23:08.280 --> 2:23:11.160 of the population could, for example, I don't know, take 2:23:11.280 --> 2:23:14.080 money from the rich small part of the of the 2:23:14.080 --> 2:23:17.879 population and distributed around, and they think that is totalitarianism, 2:23:18.560 --> 2:23:20.440 and in order to stop that from happening, they are 2:23:20.520 --> 2:23:25.000 in fact absolutely imperfectly willing to just back dictatorships. And 2:23:25.280 --> 2:23:27.120 you know that's in essence what they what they what 2:23:27.200 --> 2:23:30.959 they actually want is a state, the sole function of 2:23:31.000 --> 2:23:33.480 which essentially is to ensure that nobody ever does this. 2:23:33.520 --> 2:23:35.440 And you know, if you can do this instead of 2:23:35.440 --> 2:23:39.520 a democratic framework, fine, but if you can't, well, I 2:23:39.560 --> 2:23:42.480 don't know, it's time for a coup. We're gonna turn 2:23:42.560 --> 2:23:45.120 to the two Hyak in the Austrians, because Hyak also 2:23:45.240 --> 2:23:48.160 is known as this sort of like as a libertarian, 2:23:48.200 --> 2:23:52.199 as a person who sort of believes in spontaneous order 2:23:52.240 --> 2:23:55.320 and like thinks that you should you should only have 2:23:55.360 --> 2:24:01.160 sort of small, decentralized political institutions. Uh. And so we're 2:24:01.200 --> 2:24:07.120 gonna watch Hyak quote a bunch of stuff from and 2:24:07.200 --> 2:24:10.080 agree with a bunch of stuff from Carl Schmidt, which 2:24:10.120 --> 2:24:14.360 is again incredible because Hyak elsewhere described Schmidt as quote, uh, 2:24:14.440 --> 2:24:18.760 the Nazis chief jurist, which is true. But here here 2:24:18.800 --> 2:24:22.120 are some other things that Hyak has said about Karl Schmidt. Quote. 2:24:22.400 --> 2:24:25.200 The weakness of the governments of an omnipotent democracy was 2:24:25.280 --> 2:24:28.400 very clearly seen by the extraordinary German student of politics, 2:24:28.520 --> 2:24:32.359 Carl Schmidt, who in the nineteen twenties probably understood the 2:24:32.440 --> 2:24:35.240 character of the developing form of government better than most people. 2:24:36.320 --> 2:24:38.160 And you know, Hyak believes a lot of the same 2:24:38.160 --> 2:24:39.960 things that Schmick does. So you know, one of them 2:24:40.440 --> 2:24:42.920 things that Schmidt is like big on is that liberalism 2:24:42.920 --> 2:24:46.200 and democracy are opposite things. And Hyak also believes this. 2:24:47.560 --> 2:24:49.440 And okay, so so I'm gonna read I'm gonna read 2:24:49.480 --> 2:24:51.120 some Schmitt and the we're gonna read some Hyak, and 2:24:51.160 --> 2:24:53.840 they're gonna be saying the same thing. So here, Schmidt, 2:24:54.040 --> 2:24:57.200 only a strong state can preserve and enhance a free markets. 2:24:57.320 --> 2:25:00.720 Only a strong state can generate generate genuine d centralization 2:25:00.720 --> 2:25:05.160 and bring about free and autonomous domains. Here's Hyak. If 2:25:05.200 --> 2:25:08.480 we proceed on the assumption that only the exercise this 2:25:08.640 --> 2:25:11.920 is of freedom that the majority will are important, we 2:25:11.959 --> 2:25:14.680 would be certain to create a stadiant society with all 2:25:14.680 --> 2:25:19.200 the characteristics of un freedom. So what Hi what Hyak? Yeah, 2:25:19.280 --> 2:25:21.920 Schmidt is saying that only a strong state can support 2:25:21.959 --> 2:25:24.440 a free market and uncentralization. Hyak is saying if you 2:25:24.520 --> 2:25:29.840 let a democracy exist that has majority rule, it will 2:25:29.959 --> 2:25:34.440 create un freedom. Now we will get into this more 2:25:34.480 --> 2:25:37.680 when we talk about like Chile, because oh boy, is 2:25:37.680 --> 2:25:40.520 there some other ship that Hiak cassity with that? But 2:25:41.360 --> 2:25:43.840 most neoliberals hate democracy, no about it. What they say 2:25:43.879 --> 2:25:46.240 in public, and and this is the other important thing here, 2:25:46.320 --> 2:25:49.720 neo liberals lie, they like constantly. They lie to the 2:25:49.760 --> 2:25:52.439 point where sorting out their actual beliefs becomes almost impossible, 2:25:52.480 --> 2:25:55.640 and even their intellectual enemies believe the lies that they tell. Well, 2:25:55.640 --> 2:25:57.960 most people think the neo libbals believe is that, you know, 2:25:58.000 --> 2:26:00.480 they want a small government in liberty and un regulated 2:26:00.560 --> 2:26:03.680 market that will occur naturally through spontaneous order, because it's 2:26:03.760 --> 2:26:06.160 human nature to what the truck and barter and rationally 2:26:06.160 --> 2:26:09.600 calculate things, and the neoliberals don't believe any of this. 2:26:09.600 --> 2:26:11.000 This is just what they tell to the groups. What 2:26:11.240 --> 2:26:14.400 they actually want is a large and powerful surveillance in 2:26:14.520 --> 2:26:17.480 legal state, in a massive bureaucracy to enforce essentially pro 2:26:17.560 --> 2:26:21.879 corporate policies. At gunpoint, um, I'm gonna read close up 2:26:21.879 --> 2:26:26.240 this episode by by reading a list of things that 2:26:26.320 --> 2:26:29.760 Philip Morowski is an economical story to studies neoliberalism, whose 2:26:29.800 --> 2:26:33.400 work I've used a lot for for these episodes, wrote 2:26:33.440 --> 2:26:36.720 about the the sort of the the sort of eleven 2:26:36.720 --> 2:26:41.320 principles of what new liberals actually believe. One. Free markets 2:26:41.320 --> 2:26:44.080 do not occur naturally. They must be actively constructed through 2:26:44.080 --> 2:26:48.080 political organizing too. The market is an information processor and 2:26:48.240 --> 2:26:51.200 the most efficient one possible, more efficient than any government 2:26:51.280 --> 2:26:53.959 or any single human being could be. Truth can only 2:26:54.000 --> 2:26:57.840 be validated by the market. Three. Market society is, and 2:26:57.879 --> 2:27:00.879 therefore should be, the natural and inexorable date of human kind. 2:27:01.240 --> 2:27:03.720 The political goal of neoliberals is not to destroy this date, 2:27:03.720 --> 2:27:05.640 but to take control of it and to redefine its 2:27:05.640 --> 2:27:07.880 structure and function in order to create and maintain the 2:27:07.959 --> 2:27:13.000 market friendly culture. Five. There is no contradiction between public politics, 2:27:13.000 --> 2:27:16.800 citizen and private market, entrepreneur consumer, because the latter does 2:27:17.000 --> 2:27:20.879 and should eclipse the former. Six. The most important virtue, 2:27:21.240 --> 2:27:25.080 more important then justice or anything else, is freedom, defined 2:27:25.320 --> 2:27:29.560 negatively as freedom to choose, most importantly defined as the 2:27:29.600 --> 2:27:32.880 freedom to acquiesce to the imperatives of the market. Seven. 2:27:33.120 --> 2:27:36.240 Capital has a natural right to flow freely across national borders. 2:27:36.520 --> 2:27:40.240 A inequality of resources, income, wealth, and even political rights 2:27:40.360 --> 2:27:43.480 is a good thing. It promotes productivity because people envy 2:27:43.520 --> 2:27:46.040 the rich and emulate them. People who complain about inequality 2:27:46.080 --> 2:27:48.240 are either sore looters or old foggies who need to 2:27:48.280 --> 2:27:52.080 get hip to the way things work nowadays. Nine Corporations 2:27:52.080 --> 2:27:54.920 could do no wrong. By definition, competition will take care 2:27:54.920 --> 2:27:58.959 of all problems, including any tendency monopoly. Ten. The markets 2:27:59.040 --> 2:28:02.039 engineered and promote it by neoliberal experts can always provide 2:28:02.040 --> 2:28:04.840 a solution to the problems seemingly endlessly caused by the 2:28:04.840 --> 2:28:07.320 market in the first place. There's always an app for that. 2:28:07.600 --> 2:28:11.840 Eleven there's no difference between is and should be free markets. 2:28:11.840 --> 2:28:15.320 Both should be normatively and are positively the most efficient 2:28:15.320 --> 2:28:18.360 economic system and the most just way of doing politics, 2:28:18.360 --> 2:28:20.840 and the most sympirically true description of human behavior and 2:28:20.879 --> 2:28:23.400 the most ethical and moral way to live, which in 2:28:23.440 --> 2:28:28.160 turn explains, justifies and justifies why their versions of free 2:28:28.200 --> 2:28:32.160 markets should be and as neoliberals build more and more power, 2:28:32.240 --> 2:28:35.920 increasingly are universal. Yeah, we we we we We've read 2:28:35.920 --> 2:28:38.920 a long list of things. But essentially the point of 2:28:38.959 --> 2:28:41.160 this is that the liberals want to transform everything into 2:28:41.200 --> 2:28:42.760 the market because they think the market is a more 2:28:42.800 --> 2:28:44.800 efficient way of doing things, in a better and more 2:28:44.879 --> 2:28:48.199 moral and more just way of doing things than anything 2:28:48.240 --> 2:28:51.280 else you can possibly imagine, including you know, things like 2:28:51.360 --> 2:28:56.240 democracy and you know, and any problem the system like 2:28:56.320 --> 2:28:58.879 produces will be solved by the system. Now, this is 2:28:59.200 --> 2:29:02.160 this is an increase credibly radical political program in a 2:29:02.200 --> 2:29:05.680 lot of ways in that it will you know, you 2:29:05.879 --> 2:29:07.640 can you can you can argue whether it's a radical 2:29:07.720 --> 2:29:09.520 or reactionary program. I mean, I think I think it's 2:29:09.520 --> 2:29:11.560 a it's a deeply reactionary one in some ways, but 2:29:11.640 --> 2:29:13.879 it is a is a program that is vastly different 2:29:13.920 --> 2:29:17.920 than anything else that has come before it. Now, the challenge, 2:29:17.920 --> 2:29:20.039 of course, was getting anyone else to agree to this, 2:29:20.840 --> 2:29:23.440 and the answer is that it's really hard to It 2:29:23.480 --> 2:29:26.879 is extremely hard to convince people that you know, everyone 2:29:26.920 --> 2:29:29.600 should bow down to the market, etcetera, etcetera. And so 2:29:29.760 --> 2:29:34.040 the only way they can actually do this is by lying. Now, 2:29:35.080 --> 2:29:39.600 as as Morowski describes, the neoliberals operate an incredibly sophisticated 2:29:39.640 --> 2:29:41.840 intellectual and political network that forms a sort of a 2:29:41.920 --> 2:29:44.920 choice good doll with Montpellar ownciety at Et Center and 2:29:45.000 --> 2:29:47.400 an ever expanding group of more and less specialized think 2:29:47.440 --> 2:29:50.560 tanks the shell layers. So it is where that they 2:29:50.640 --> 2:29:53.360 mirror the vanguard structure and sort of front group networks 2:29:53.400 --> 2:29:55.920 of their communist opponents, but they have significantly better financial backing. 2:29:55.959 --> 2:29:57.240 And this means that you know, they can run the 2:29:57.240 --> 2:30:00.400 American Enterprise Institute and uh, you know, with with with 2:30:01.240 --> 2:30:05.080 copious amounts of coke money, they can run this entire 2:30:05.240 --> 2:30:07.280 enormous network of think tanks that allows them to sort 2:30:07.280 --> 2:30:10.920 of act as a government in waiting. And the other 2:30:11.040 --> 2:30:14.120 thing that they're going to attempt to do is take 2:30:14.160 --> 2:30:16.560 over the global regulatory bureaucracy, the I m F, the 2:30:16.600 --> 2:30:20.960 World Bank, eventually weld trade organizations and force people to 2:30:21.040 --> 2:30:26.280 do this at gunpoints by using those organizations. Now, all 2:30:26.320 --> 2:30:29.080 they needed was a crisis that they could use to 2:30:29.080 --> 2:30:31.840 implement their policies, and next week we're going to look 2:30:31.879 --> 2:30:33.959 at the crisis that gave them exactly what they wanted. 2:30:34.720 --> 2:30:36.960 This has been nick It Happen Here. Find us on 2:30:37.560 --> 2:30:40.560 Instagram and on Twitter at Happened Here pod. Find the 2:30:40.640 --> 2:30:52.600 rest of our stuff that cools um and goodbye. The 2:30:52.720 --> 2:30:56.200 Gangster Chronicles podcast is a weekly conversation that revolves around 2:30:56.360 --> 2:31:00.840 Underworld and criminals, the entertainers to BIS crime law enforcement. 2:31:00.920 --> 2:31:03.880 We cover all facets of the game. Gainst The Chronicles 2:31:03.959 --> 2:31:07.760 podcast doesn't glorify promotilstit of the activities. We just discussed 2:31:07.800 --> 2:31:10.760 the ramifications and repercussions of these activities because at the 2:31:10.800 --> 2:31:13.720 Wall she played gamester games. You are ultimately rewarded with 2:31:13.800 --> 2:31:17.680 Gangster Prizes. Our Heart Radios number one for podcasts, but 2:31:17.800 --> 2:31:20.480 don't take our award for it. Find Against the Chronicles 2:31:20.560 --> 2:31:22.960 podcast and I Heart Radio app or wherever you get 2:31:23.000 --> 2:31:27.959 your podcast. Make sure to check out Drink Champs, your 2:31:28.000 --> 2:31:31.160 number one music podcast on the Black Effect Podcast Network. 2:31:31.400 --> 2:31:33.120 Host N O. R E and d J E. F 2:31:33.280 --> 2:31:36.280 N sat down with artists and icon Yea, which Vulture 2:31:36.360 --> 2:31:40.440 called one of most significant interviews. I literally had to 2:31:40.560 --> 2:31:42.600 go like Thanos and I don't want to have to 2:31:42.640 --> 2:31:44.680 be the villain. But when I went and did the 2:31:44.800 --> 2:31:48.920 Donda thing, he returned and everybody had to sit back 2:31:49.080 --> 2:31:52.480 and watch the real leader. Check out Drink Champs, Conversation 2:31:52.560 --> 2:31:55.280 with Yea and many more legendary artists each and every 2:31:55.360 --> 2:31:58.200 Friday on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or 2:31:58.200 --> 2:32:13.880 wherever you listen to your favorite show. What I mean, 2:32:13.920 --> 2:32:16.160 that's that's all I got today. Who's Who's taken over? 2:32:16.320 --> 2:32:21.080 Come on? It's me? I guess it's me? All right, 2:32:21.160 --> 2:32:23.480 Well then, what what show is this? And what do 2:32:23.600 --> 2:32:26.200 we do? This is it could happen here. We talk 2:32:26.280 --> 2:32:30.400 about things being bad and also what you can do 2:32:30.480 --> 2:32:32.760 about them, But this is a this is a things 2:32:32.760 --> 2:32:35.120 are bad episode and not at what you can do 2:32:35.200 --> 2:32:39.600 about the episode specifically. This is part two of what 2:32:39.720 --> 2:32:41.960 I guess you could call our mini series on neoliberalism. 2:32:43.000 --> 2:32:45.680 And so you know, yesterday we talked a lot about 2:32:46.240 --> 2:32:49.520 who the originally liberals are. They have a bit of 2:32:49.560 --> 2:32:51.560 power in Germany in the fifties, but for the fifties 2:32:51.560 --> 2:32:55.960 and sixties up to the seventies, they're kind of nobody's there. 2:32:56.120 --> 2:32:57.720 You know, they're they're there. They have a couple of 2:32:57.760 --> 2:32:59.080 think tanks, but they're kind of they're kind of just 2:32:59.160 --> 2:33:02.080 siloed off in the corner and they yell at people, 2:33:02.200 --> 2:33:06.320 and people kind of ignore them. And what they're waiting for, essentially, 2:33:06.720 --> 2:33:10.160 is the right crisis, and in the nineteen seventies they 2:33:10.240 --> 2:33:14.720 finally find that crisis. Now, I think it's kind of 2:33:14.760 --> 2:33:16.880 hard to remember in a lot of ways because of 2:33:16.959 --> 2:33:19.240 how the eighties went, But in the in the early 2:33:19.320 --> 2:33:22.920 nineteen seventies, things are not looking good for capitalism. I mean, 2:33:23.000 --> 2:33:24.920 you have so you know, I and I end wins 2:33:24.959 --> 2:33:29.119 this election nineteen seventy We'll talk about what happened there 2:33:29.320 --> 2:33:32.960 in another episode. But you know, it's it's not just 2:33:33.080 --> 2:33:37.000 that in nineteen nineteen seventy four, Well, so to the 2:33:37.040 --> 2:33:39.760 whole early nineteen seventies, am we called Carbrial is just 2:33:39.959 --> 2:33:44.520 absolutely annihilating the Portuguese army, and he, you know, he wins. 2:33:44.760 --> 2:33:46.440 He finds one of the like one of history's greatest 2:33:46.440 --> 2:33:50.959 guerrilla wars, and this basically destroys the entire Portuguese state 2:33:51.000 --> 2:33:54.240 and caused the Carnathan Carnation Revolution. The Portuguese colonies get free, 2:33:54.240 --> 2:33:56.720 the Dirt takes part in Methiopia, and then nineteen seventy five, 2:33:57.480 --> 2:34:00.000 the North Vietnam wins of the like the war in Vietnam, 2:34:00.000 --> 2:34:02.000 and now you know, the product of this is that 2:34:02.920 --> 2:34:06.279 Cambodia falls, Loos falls. There's now there's five social estates 2:34:06.320 --> 2:34:10.480 in Eastern East Asia, in Southeast Asia and Yea also Mongolea, 2:34:10.520 --> 2:34:13.080 but nobody really cares about them. And as as all 2:34:13.120 --> 2:34:14.640 of this is happening, as these sort of as the 2:34:14.640 --> 2:34:16.880 anti colonial armies are sort of marching their way through 2:34:16.920 --> 2:34:23.240 the world, there's an enormous economic crisis. And yeah, I 2:34:23.240 --> 2:34:25.080 mean there's a lot of things happening at the same time. 2:34:25.879 --> 2:34:27.440 One of the ones I think is probably the thing, 2:34:27.480 --> 2:34:29.440 the thing that people remember the most is there's just 2:34:29.640 --> 2:34:34.960 unbelievable inflation, and you know, and and economic growth starts 2:34:34.959 --> 2:34:39.160 to slowed down. Although so something I think that we 2:34:39.240 --> 2:34:40.720 do need to keep in mind is that when I 2:34:40.760 --> 2:34:45.280 say economic growth slows, so economic growth from like six 2:34:45.400 --> 2:34:51.240 seven nine is um from two thousand and two thousand seven, 2:34:51.320 --> 2:34:54.000 it was two point three percent in the US. And 2:34:54.040 --> 2:34:55.400 so you know, when when when I say there's an 2:34:55.400 --> 2:34:57.640 economic crisis going on here, like economic growth in the 2:34:57.680 --> 2:35:00.920 seventies is better than any decades since, but it's still 2:35:00.920 --> 2:35:03.840 considered the crisis decade because there's much of inflation, and 2:35:04.640 --> 2:35:07.760 you know, everyone has their own theory as to why 2:35:07.879 --> 2:35:11.840 this is happening, because the sort of Keynesians who who 2:35:11.879 --> 2:35:13.920 have been in power, whose thing is, oh, well, we 2:35:14.000 --> 2:35:15.960 can you know, if if there's everyn economic crisis, we 2:35:16.000 --> 2:35:17.800 can sort of we can spend money, and that you know, 2:35:17.840 --> 2:35:19.600 then the government spending money will drag everyone out of 2:35:19.600 --> 2:35:22.879 the crisis. But in Keynsian theory, like there's not supposed 2:35:22.879 --> 2:35:26.680 to be inflation, if like if if unemployment is increasing 2:35:26.680 --> 2:35:28.560 and there's an economic crisis, there's not supposed to inflation, 2:35:28.640 --> 2:35:31.240 and suddenly there's both. So the Kensians have nothing, and 2:35:31.280 --> 2:35:35.200 they're sort of just running around like just with basically 2:35:35.280 --> 2:35:37.039 like checking to their head cut off and going, oh god, 2:35:37.080 --> 2:35:38.760 we have no idea what's happening. We don't know what's happening. 2:35:39.480 --> 2:35:42.520 And so into this gap steps a bunch of weirdos. 2:35:43.520 --> 2:35:46.040 And so I'm just gonna I'm gonna go through a 2:35:46.280 --> 2:35:48.600 few of the theories as to why this crisis happened, 2:35:48.680 --> 2:35:52.800 because I don't know, and I think there's elements of 2:35:52.840 --> 2:35:57.200 truth in most of the stories ish kind of but 2:35:57.520 --> 2:36:00.960 you know, it's this is extremely complicated and there's still 2:36:01.000 --> 2:36:04.360 no consensus on it. So I'm gonna start with the 2:36:04.520 --> 2:36:10.360 most crank, which is so so the run Paul people. 2:36:11.080 --> 2:36:13.800 The whole thing is, yeah, every everything went to ship 2:36:13.959 --> 2:36:16.000 has been shipped ever since because the US abandon the 2:36:16.040 --> 2:36:20.200 gold standard, and like they're right into the extent that 2:36:20.360 --> 2:36:23.200 this happens. So basically, Nixon has been trying to pay 2:36:23.240 --> 2:36:25.600 for the Vietnam War and he can't. And you know, 2:36:25.720 --> 2:36:27.840 the the US dollar has been pegged to a certain 2:36:27.840 --> 2:36:29.360 amount of gold, right, and you can do this thing 2:36:29.400 --> 2:36:30.800 where if you get it, you have an American dollar, 2:36:30.840 --> 2:36:33.160 you can exchange it for that amount of gold. And 2:36:33.280 --> 2:36:36.240 so travels the goal just it's like, okay, we're just 2:36:36.280 --> 2:36:38.240 gonna we're gonna take all of this gold. And so 2:36:38.400 --> 2:36:40.000 he does in the US starts running out of gold 2:36:40.120 --> 2:36:42.480 and so bye bye by In the early seventies, Nixon 2:36:42.640 --> 2:36:45.080 is like, fuck this, you can't actually exchange dollars for 2:36:45.120 --> 2:36:49.120 gold anymore. And now every single libertarian starts every rant 2:36:49.200 --> 2:36:54.360 with fiat currency. But you know this, this this does 2:36:54.480 --> 2:36:56.440 have an effect on the economy, which we'll talk about 2:36:56.480 --> 2:37:00.120 more in the bit um. There's you know it, but 2:37:00.160 --> 2:37:02.640 there's there's a lot of other explanations for this, um 2:37:03.520 --> 2:37:05.720 the modern monetary three people if you listen to them, 2:37:05.840 --> 2:37:09.880 and also Peter Thiel. Weirdly, I will argue, oh, it's 2:37:09.879 --> 2:37:12.200 all because of the oil shock, because oil prices increased, 2:37:13.920 --> 2:37:18.560 neoliberals will spend neo liberal essentially, they blame too much 2:37:18.600 --> 2:37:22.640 government spending welfare programs and then wages being too high, 2:37:22.720 --> 2:37:28.959 and also band monetary policy. There's like an entire there's 2:37:29.000 --> 2:37:31.920 there's like seventeen different Marxist explanations for it, some of 2:37:32.000 --> 2:37:35.600 which are I'll talk about like one and a half 2:37:35.680 --> 2:37:40.800 of them, um that are more plausible. One one of 2:37:40.800 --> 2:37:46.120 the explanations has to do with how essentially, so the 2:37:46.200 --> 2:37:48.000 other thing that's happening in the sixte seventies is that 2:37:48.240 --> 2:37:50.760 minorities and women are entering the workplace and are you know, 2:37:52.080 --> 2:37:55.120 actually demanding to be paid the wages that white men 2:37:55.160 --> 2:37:58.560 have been being paid, and corporations essentially just can't afford this, 2:37:59.320 --> 2:38:02.000 and so you know that they have two choices. It's 2:38:02.000 --> 2:38:03.880 either we pay these people actual wages or we just 2:38:03.959 --> 2:38:08.440 murder everyone, and they took the second one. So it's 2:38:08.680 --> 2:38:10.560 something that that has also been happening through this whole 2:38:10.600 --> 2:38:14.160 period is that profit rates and manufacturing just keep collapsing. 2:38:14.959 --> 2:38:17.160 And there there's there's a whole thing here about some 2:38:17.440 --> 2:38:21.320 marketis theory stuff. But the thing that's important is that 2:38:22.320 --> 2:38:23.959 that and this this has also happened in the seventies. 2:38:24.040 --> 2:38:27.920 Eventually you hit a point where manufacturing growth become zero sum. 2:38:29.080 --> 2:38:31.720 And you know, so you can have manufacturing growth in 2:38:32.360 --> 2:38:34.560 one country, but you can't have it in another because 2:38:34.920 --> 2:38:37.720 at a certain point you're producing too much stuff and 2:38:37.720 --> 2:38:40.360 people start getting kicked out of the labor process. And 2:38:40.520 --> 2:38:42.160 this has a bunch of effects. One is it it 2:38:42.160 --> 2:38:43.680 means you get a bunch of people who are employed. 2:38:43.720 --> 2:38:48.520 And to it means that there's just a bunch of 2:38:48.680 --> 2:38:51.320 money floating around that nobody can actually invest in places. 2:38:51.360 --> 2:38:53.080 And this is you know, like all of the weird 2:38:53.120 --> 2:38:58.280 stuff the Saudias do. It is just basically from this 2:38:58.640 --> 2:39:00.360 this money. There's a whole this, this whole piles of 2:39:00.400 --> 2:39:02.879 oil money that are just sitting around that nobody canfst 2:39:02.920 --> 2:39:07.160 in anything. And that's going to cause you know that 2:39:07.240 --> 2:39:08.760 that that that that's that's that's going to cause a 2:39:08.800 --> 2:39:14.840 lot of stuff down the road. But for now, yeah, 2:39:14.879 --> 2:39:16.800 we'll talk about the dead crisis and causes sort of 2:39:16.879 --> 2:39:20.240 next episode, but for now, I'm going to try to 2:39:20.440 --> 2:39:22.720 pull all of these together and like have something, have 2:39:22.800 --> 2:39:26.840 a coherent thing that makes sense, which is essentially but 2:39:26.959 --> 2:39:29.840 by the end of the seventies profit rate or declining, 2:39:29.920 --> 2:39:32.440 and then Nixon pulls, you know, Nick Nixon pulls the 2:39:32.480 --> 2:39:36.800 dollar off the gold standard, and this causes the value 2:39:36.840 --> 2:39:39.960 the dollars just plunge. And this this is the thing 2:39:40.040 --> 2:39:43.680 that sets off the nine oil crisis. So the ny 2:39:43.680 --> 2:39:46.000 SA oil crisis is weird because it's not an oil crisis. 2:39:46.280 --> 2:39:48.000 Every everyone looks at the Griber crisis and it goes, oh, 2:39:48.040 --> 2:39:50.040 it's an oil crisis. The crisis because there wasn't enough oil, 2:39:50.080 --> 2:39:51.800 and it's it's not it's nothing to do with that 2:39:52.040 --> 2:39:53.760 is literally nothing to do a supply of oil at all. 2:39:54.720 --> 2:39:59.640 What actually happens is that so you have OPEC, right 2:39:59.760 --> 2:40:01.440 or because this sort of is the Alliance of Oil 2:40:01.440 --> 2:40:06.080 Producing Cartels UM and they have this extremely complicated system 2:40:06.520 --> 2:40:11.000 where they they sell oil to oil companies and then 2:40:11.040 --> 2:40:13.080 the oil companies sell the oil, did they refine it 2:40:13.160 --> 2:40:15.880 and sell it to you, And they have this incredibly 2:40:15.879 --> 2:40:23.039 convoluted tax structured on it and eventually, so the oil 2:40:23.080 --> 2:40:26.800 companies are having like the price of oil starts to rise, 2:40:26.840 --> 2:40:29.440 and the oil companies are basically just taking it all 2:40:29.480 --> 2:40:31.280 of the profit from this, and so OPEC goes, Okay, 2:40:31.280 --> 2:40:34.160 you guys are gonna pay taxes, and the oil companies 2:40:34.200 --> 2:40:39.080 just refused, and so OPEC just unilaterally, just you know, 2:40:39.280 --> 2:40:41.520 OPEC just unilaterally is like, Okay, you guys are gonna 2:40:41.520 --> 2:40:43.280 pay taxes, and we're gonna make you pay taxes by 2:40:43.640 --> 2:40:46.240 by just increasing the price that we sell you oil at. 2:40:47.680 --> 2:40:51.520 And this gets remembered as like OPEC increasing the price 2:40:51.600 --> 2:40:53.400 of oil, even though it was literally just them saying 2:40:53.400 --> 2:40:59.200 you're gonna pay taxes. Now, this is the part that's 2:40:59.280 --> 2:41:03.920 very weird, which is that, Okay, so if you heard 2:41:03.920 --> 2:41:07.120 you two heard of the oil crisis, like the story yeah, yeah, 2:41:07.120 --> 2:41:10.040 I mean I are the way it's always gone in textbooks, 2:41:10.080 --> 2:41:12.480 as you talk about like the stagflation of the seventies 2:41:12.560 --> 2:41:15.480 and the fucking you know, lines of cars at gas 2:41:15.560 --> 2:41:19.959 stations going back blocks because OPEC factory. And yeah, that's 2:41:19.959 --> 2:41:22.560 how it's always framed, is that like there's this big 2:41:23.200 --> 2:41:27.400 political crisis over OPEC that led the gas supply getting throttled. 2:41:27.440 --> 2:41:29.240 And it came at a time when the economy had 2:41:29.240 --> 2:41:32.360 already slowed down and everything got terrible. And then a 2:41:32.440 --> 2:41:36.120 few years later we got RoboCop. Yeah, well we did 2:41:36.160 --> 2:41:38.520 get a pop. But the important thing about the story 2:41:38.680 --> 2:41:41.360 is that every single thing about that story is wrong, 2:41:42.360 --> 2:41:44.600 every part of it. Well, I mean there were lines 2:41:44.680 --> 2:41:46.280 at gas station. Yeah, I mean there are lines of 2:41:46.320 --> 2:41:48.360 gas stations, but the lines at the gas stations have 2:41:48.520 --> 2:41:51.840 literally nothing to do with OPEC, which is nothing. So 2:41:52.240 --> 2:41:58.279 on October six, the era members of of OPEC are like, fucket, 2:41:58.360 --> 2:42:00.240 we're gonna make the oil companies pay more for oil. 2:42:00.600 --> 2:42:01.760 And then the rest of the rest of ope that 2:42:01.840 --> 2:42:06.360 follows them. Now two days later is it Yeah, the 2:42:06.760 --> 2:42:10.480 next day there is a completely unrelated thing to all 2:42:10.560 --> 2:42:12.720 of this, which is that while while this is going on, 2:42:12.800 --> 2:42:16.200 the Jan Kapoor War starts, and so Egypt and Syria 2:42:16.280 --> 2:42:20.120 attack Israel, um the basical attack the Israel occupation forces 2:42:20.160 --> 2:42:23.480 in their country, and the war is going really badly 2:42:23.560 --> 2:42:25.440 for them there, I mean it's it's I mean, it's 2:42:25.440 --> 2:42:27.000 not going it's not going as badly as like the 2:42:27.120 --> 2:42:29.480 previous wars had gone for the air powers, but it's 2:42:29.480 --> 2:42:33.480 not going great. And so on October six, Arab oil 2:42:33.520 --> 2:42:36.440 producing countries declare if they're they're cutting the amount of 2:42:36.440 --> 2:42:38.680 oil they export by five percent per month until Israel 2:42:38.760 --> 2:42:42.560 returns his territories. It occupies sixty seven and they haven't 2:42:42.560 --> 2:42:46.200 embargo on the US. But and this is the very 2:42:46.240 --> 2:42:49.160 important part. This has nothing to do with OPEC. This 2:42:49.320 --> 2:42:52.000 is not Opaq at all. It's not this. This is 2:42:52.080 --> 2:42:53.800 this is this is just a couple of random Arab 2:42:53.879 --> 2:42:56.560 countries are like, we're going to do this, and you know, 2:42:56.680 --> 2:42:58.959 and I think when I think it's interesting about Robert 2:42:59.000 --> 2:43:01.280 we're talking about, is is OPEC factory? You know? Is 2:43:01.320 --> 2:43:03.760 how this gets remembered and this this is one of 2:43:03.800 --> 2:43:06.760 the things that that neoliberals used to sort of push 2:43:06.800 --> 2:43:08.480 their model of the world right, which is that everything 2:43:08.520 --> 2:43:11.240 functions office supply and demands and oh look, hey the 2:43:11.280 --> 2:43:12.800 Arabs cut the supply of oil and that's why the 2:43:12.840 --> 2:43:17.200 prices rose. But it's just it's just wrong, it's empirically wrong. 2:43:17.280 --> 2:43:19.800 The price cut happens, I mean, the price increases happened 2:43:19.920 --> 2:43:26.400 the day before the the oil the price increases the 2:43:26.480 --> 2:43:29.680 day before the embargo, and the embargo and the oil price. 2:43:29.760 --> 2:43:32.320 People are different groups. They have nothing to do with 2:43:32.400 --> 2:43:36.320 each other. But you know this, this gets sort of 2:43:36.720 --> 2:43:39.439 systemed like this, this is this is how it's it's remembered. 2:43:40.240 --> 2:43:41.560 And and you know, it's not even just how to remembered, 2:43:41.640 --> 2:43:44.640 like like the Encyclopedia Britannica has the dates and which 2:43:44.680 --> 2:43:46.199 all of this stuff happens wrong, they have the sequence 2:43:46.200 --> 2:43:47.880 of events wrong, like all of the most of the 2:43:47.879 --> 2:43:50.760 people who write about this remember this whole thing wrong. 2:43:50.840 --> 2:43:52.480 And and this is this is part of the sort 2:43:52.520 --> 2:43:55.000 of an enormous propaganda effort that and neo liberals are 2:43:55.000 --> 2:43:57.440 able to do at this moment, which is they convince 2:43:57.520 --> 2:44:00.160 everyone that, oh, yeah, the price increases and the gagsly 2:44:00.200 --> 2:44:04.120 the gas shortages are are are about OPEC. But again, 2:44:04.160 --> 2:44:06.520 also like the the US only imports like seven percent 2:44:06.600 --> 2:44:09.480 of its oil from from the countries who are doing 2:44:09.520 --> 2:44:12.520 the embargo at this point. So the actual thing that's 2:44:12.520 --> 2:44:14.320 going on has to do with prices. It's a weird thing, 2:44:14.360 --> 2:44:17.320 as with price controls and gas companies are hoarding gas 2:44:17.400 --> 2:44:18.960 because they don't want to sell at a price control 2:44:19.040 --> 2:44:22.560 levels and stuff like that. But you know, the oil 2:44:22.600 --> 2:44:25.880 price increases, you know, they yeah like it, it is bad, 2:44:26.000 --> 2:44:27.680 Like the price of oil does go up and there 2:44:27.720 --> 2:44:32.320 are shortages, but it has nothing to do with like 2:44:32.440 --> 2:44:34.040 there's nothing to do with the embargo, has nothing to 2:44:34.080 --> 2:44:37.360 do with, you know, like the supply of oil going down. 2:44:37.520 --> 2:44:40.560 It's just companies didn't want to pay taxes and so 2:44:40.640 --> 2:44:42.360 they started hoarding the oil instead of selling it, and 2:44:42.360 --> 2:44:44.760 they passed the price the tax increase onto the consumers 2:44:44.760 --> 2:44:47.920 instead of paying it. And as we talked about before, 2:44:48.360 --> 2:44:51.119 once this sort of like tax increase goes in that OPEC, 2:44:51.360 --> 2:44:53.119 well some of the open countries want to do goes 2:44:53.160 --> 2:44:55.640 into place, like the price of oil does increase, and 2:44:56.200 --> 2:44:58.560 this does funck the economy even more. But the economy 2:44:58.560 --> 2:45:02.040 hadn't really even sort of a mess before this, and 2:45:02.240 --> 2:45:06.280 it has one other very important effective that you know 2:45:06.400 --> 2:45:09.080 this is you know, I guess, I guess. The theme 2:45:09.120 --> 2:45:10.960 of this episode is that the oil and bargo matters, 2:45:11.000 --> 2:45:13.920 but the oil and bargo matters because people think it matters, 2:45:13.959 --> 2:45:17.000 not because they did anything and the other. So it 2:45:17.120 --> 2:45:19.040 matters in the US because everyone thinks that, oh, the 2:45:19.200 --> 2:45:22.200 scary Arab nations are coming for us. But it matters 2:45:22.240 --> 2:45:26.520 in the rest of the world because everyone else looks 2:45:26.560 --> 2:45:29.680 at this and goes, wait, hold on, you can actually 2:45:30.000 --> 2:45:33.879 use commodities. Essentially, you can use commodity prices like countries 2:45:33.959 --> 2:45:39.680 that like have raw you know, commodities can use this 2:45:40.200 --> 2:45:43.400 control to actually go fight you know, to like to 2:45:43.520 --> 2:45:45.240 go fight the West, to go fight the capitalists and 2:45:45.280 --> 2:45:49.160 go like you know, get money for themselves. And this 2:45:49.320 --> 2:45:53.760 leads us into something Robert Garrison to have you three 2:45:53.920 --> 2:45:57.920 you ever heard of the G seventy seven. Uh that 2:45:58.080 --> 2:46:01.960 like the seventy seven countries that have the most money. Well, 2:46:02.080 --> 2:46:05.240 that that's the that's the G seven. Well yeah, but 2:46:05.280 --> 2:46:08.240 I was, I was seven might be just a longer list. 2:46:09.280 --> 2:46:11.480 So yeah. So so this is this is the other 2:46:11.560 --> 2:46:13.760 thing from this period that just is completely lost as 2:46:13.760 --> 2:46:16.000 almost completely lost to history, and seventy seven is actually 2:46:16.040 --> 2:46:22.160 still around. But what they are was so in the sixties, 2:46:22.320 --> 2:46:24.200 you know, you have all of these countries that have 2:46:24.840 --> 2:46:28.199 recently gained independence, and all these countries have getting dependence 2:46:28.760 --> 2:46:32.039 um from their sort of colonial overlords, and they start 2:46:32.120 --> 2:46:34.520 to band together into basically a voting block in the 2:46:34.640 --> 2:46:36.960 U N And also this is the other the other 2:46:37.000 --> 2:46:38.760 weird part about the story is that so in the 2:46:38.840 --> 2:46:41.879 niteen seventies and sixties seventies, particularly the UN actually matters 2:46:43.040 --> 2:46:45.520 like it's it's it's it's a thing that people There 2:46:45.600 --> 2:46:48.480 was that like twenties years after World War Two, where 2:46:48.520 --> 2:46:51.960 people were maybe I mean a good example of the 2:46:52.080 --> 2:46:54.400 degree to which the u N actually used to be 2:46:55.240 --> 2:46:59.560 meaningful is watched the first Street Fighter movie. Um, because 2:46:59.640 --> 2:47:01.880 the good guys and that are clearly based off the 2:47:02.000 --> 2:47:05.120 u N. And nobody thinks it's ridiculous that the United 2:47:05.240 --> 2:47:08.600 Nations are actually doing something. Um, it's fine to have 2:47:08.720 --> 2:47:10.440 Jean Claude van dam And be the leader of the 2:47:10.520 --> 2:47:13.400 United Nations fist fighting a guy that that makes total 2:47:13.480 --> 2:47:16.280 sense in the nineteen nineties and you know, and so 2:47:16.600 --> 2:47:19.880 and part of talk about this war next episode. But basically, so, 2:47:20.000 --> 2:47:22.280 the reason the UN is a joke right now is 2:47:22.440 --> 2:47:26.160 because of what the US was doing to stop the 2:47:26.200 --> 2:47:28.879 G seventy seven from doing anything. I mean, I would 2:47:28.959 --> 2:47:33.520 argue that fail massive failures in Rwanda and uh Bosnia 2:47:33.640 --> 2:47:36.600 had a huge impact on that. A couple of genocides 2:47:36.640 --> 2:47:38.280 go down and people are like, well, what are these 2:47:38.320 --> 2:47:40.960 guys doing? But yeah, yeah, yeah, well this is this 2:47:41.040 --> 2:47:42.840 is this is how they got dysfunctional to the point 2:47:42.879 --> 2:47:46.120 where you can get that yeah, which is so so okay, 2:47:46.160 --> 2:47:49.240 So you have you know, and a bunch of coaches 2:47:49.280 --> 2:47:51.560 that call themselves, you know, the term they used for 2:47:51.640 --> 2:47:54.680 themselves is the third world. And they come together the 2:47:54.720 --> 2:47:56.520 form of this group and it's it's it's a really 2:47:56.680 --> 2:47:59.720 weird ideological mixed bag. Like I mean, you have you know, 2:48:00.040 --> 2:48:03.560 have you have like actual socialists like tensan years and 2:48:03.879 --> 2:48:07.240 Michael Borele and Jamaica. You've also got like Gaddaffi and 2:48:07.320 --> 2:48:16.400 the Bathists and like was a socialist come on Paradise 2:48:16.800 --> 2:48:20.400 ka Libya, you know, okay, my, my, my, my, My 2:48:20.520 --> 2:48:23.320 most contrarian hot take is that Salak Jaded was like 2:48:23.440 --> 2:48:25.680 actually kind of an mL who was that he was? 2:48:25.840 --> 2:48:28.840 He was briefly the Bathist in charge of Syria and 2:48:28.879 --> 2:48:32.640 then he got overthrown by but both of them, there's 2:48:32.920 --> 2:48:38.120 there's definite like actual like Marxist, you know, Linen, there's 2:48:38.240 --> 2:48:40.520 something like especially in the old school Bathists, like there 2:48:40.560 --> 2:48:43.600 were aspects of that, there was socialism kind of within it. 2:48:43.760 --> 2:48:47.680 It just it would be nonsense like for example, called 2:48:47.680 --> 2:48:52.960 Saddam Hussein's both yeah yeah, and you know, and you 2:48:53.000 --> 2:48:54.440 can't see like this this is this is this is 2:48:54.560 --> 2:48:56.040 this is a real grab back and you have. There's 2:48:56.040 --> 2:48:58.240 also just a bunch of random Latin American countries, like 2:48:58.440 --> 2:49:01.119 none of whom you can call socialist. And then there's 2:49:01.120 --> 2:49:05.800 also Saudi Arabia and Thailand are in this group. To 2:49:05.840 --> 2:49:07.680 get a sense of how fractus this is, India and 2:49:07.760 --> 2:49:10.080 Pakistan are also both part of this and they fight 2:49:10.240 --> 2:49:12.400 too full scale wars while they're both in the g 2:49:12.520 --> 2:49:14.920 seventies seven. Actually that's not true. There's two full scale 2:49:14.959 --> 2:49:17.039 wars and then there's like another half war they fight 2:49:17.120 --> 2:49:20.199 in the nineties. This yeah, like all all the people 2:49:20.280 --> 2:49:22.440 in this thing are fighting, are literally fighting wars against 2:49:22.480 --> 2:49:25.320 each other. It's kind of a mess, and you know, 2:49:25.400 --> 2:49:27.800 it's fun. It's fun in in the mid sixties and 2:49:28.320 --> 2:49:31.039 until nineteen seventy four, it's kind of their Their whole 2:49:31.080 --> 2:49:34.160 thing is we have moral authority, like where you know, 2:49:34.280 --> 2:49:36.400 like where you know where we're like we we we 2:49:36.560 --> 2:49:39.240 we have the authority of all of these nations have 2:49:39.280 --> 2:49:41.040 colonized us for a long time, and we're going to 2:49:41.160 --> 2:49:45.360 use that. But in the seventies, you know that the 2:49:45.440 --> 2:49:48.800 oil embarker happens, and a lot like most I think 2:49:48.920 --> 2:49:52.000 all most of the OPEC states are are are are 2:49:52.200 --> 2:49:56.720 in um are are are in the G seventy seven, 2:49:57.360 --> 2:49:59.920 and they look at they look at the oil and 2:50:00.040 --> 2:50:04.920 bargo and they look at OPEC raising prices and they go, wait, 2:50:05.000 --> 2:50:08.400 we can do this too. In the OPEC states are like, oh, hey, 2:50:08.480 --> 2:50:10.240 we can use this to push the hord. You know, 2:50:10.360 --> 2:50:12.440 we can use like push the whole power of like 2:50:12.600 --> 2:50:15.320 of the Third World. And they they they're planned to 2:50:15.400 --> 2:50:18.000 do this is something called the New International Economic Order, 2:50:18.720 --> 2:50:20.560 which is also something that no one has ever heard of, 2:50:20.680 --> 2:50:27.199 that is extremely important that has just the spoiler alert 2:50:27.280 --> 2:50:30.040 is that this this movement gets crushed so thoroughly that 2:50:30.160 --> 2:50:32.040 nobody knows what the New Economic Order is and the 2:50:32.080 --> 2:50:35.560 Third World is now slur. But you know, the thing 2:50:35.640 --> 2:50:39.080 that they're trying to do is create a never It 2:50:39.160 --> 2:50:42.160 calls the New International Economic Order a trade union of 2:50:42.240 --> 2:50:44.920 the poor, and so it's it's this thing they're trying 2:50:44.959 --> 2:50:48.480 to get passed through the U N that would you know, 2:50:48.600 --> 2:50:50.840 just designed to sort of ensure the economic sovereignty of 2:50:50.879 --> 2:50:54.120 these developing nations. Um and I'm going to read a 2:50:54.280 --> 2:50:58.680 list of the stuff that's in here. Um So A 2:50:58.959 --> 2:51:02.560 an absolute right of states to control the extraction and 2:51:02.680 --> 2:51:06.080 marketing of their domestic natural resources be the establishment and 2:51:06.120 --> 2:51:09.560 recognition of state man managed resource cartels to stabilize and 2:51:09.640 --> 2:51:14.440 raise commodity prices. See the Regulation of transnational Corporations D 2:51:14.840 --> 2:51:18.280 No strings attached technology transfers from north to south e. 2:51:18.959 --> 2:51:22.600 The granting of preferential trade preferences to countries in the 2:51:22.680 --> 2:51:26.320 south and f forgiveness for for certain debts that states 2:51:26.360 --> 2:51:30.000 in the south oh to the north. So this is 2:51:30.160 --> 2:51:35.360 like the act. This thing, if the international Economic Order 2:51:35.400 --> 2:51:37.760 had ever been implemented at all, it would have completely 2:51:37.840 --> 2:51:41.480 reversed the basically completely reverse the balance of economic power, 2:51:42.480 --> 2:51:46.440 shifting it basically from countries like the US, like you know, 2:51:46.520 --> 2:51:50.039 Western Europe, like Japan that are these giant manufacturing powerhouses, 2:51:50.520 --> 2:51:53.360 two countries that produce you know, raw materials, and there 2:51:53.360 --> 2:51:54.520 would have you know, and the ever thing that would 2:51:54.520 --> 2:51:58.520 have happened from this is you have these the no strings, 2:51:58.600 --> 2:52:01.240 You have a debt really for the global South and 2:52:01.720 --> 2:52:06.400 also these technology transfers. And the plan is basically too 2:52:08.720 --> 2:52:11.600 create a bunch of mini opex for just not even 2:52:11.640 --> 2:52:14.000 mini opus, create opex basically for every commodity. So you know, 2:52:14.080 --> 2:52:17.240 you have like an opaque, but it's for like box 2:52:17.280 --> 2:52:21.280 site or like copper, and you know they would use 2:52:21.400 --> 2:52:24.040 they would you know, you have all these opex and 2:52:24.720 --> 2:52:26.320 each one of them uses their power and they all 2:52:26.320 --> 2:52:28.680 cooperate to to to make sure that there's a stable 2:52:28.760 --> 2:52:32.720 price for for all of these commodities. And another part 2:52:32.760 --> 2:52:35.920 of this is that it's supposed to basically enshrine the 2:52:36.000 --> 2:52:38.480 right of countries to be able to just like nationalized 2:52:38.520 --> 2:52:40.720 resource companies. So you know, you have like a British 2:52:40.760 --> 2:52:42.440 oil company. I was like, well, we just take it 2:52:42.520 --> 2:52:46.360 out now it's ours. And the threat of this is 2:52:46.440 --> 2:52:48.920 great enough that if you read conservatives in the era, 2:52:49.040 --> 2:52:51.320 they will say things like the Soviet Union is no 2:52:51.440 --> 2:52:53.600 longer a threat. The greatest danger to the West today 2:52:53.640 --> 2:52:57.800 is the yeah, yeah, and this is this, Yeah, it's 2:52:57.840 --> 2:53:00.840 it's these these people are enormous past. Yeah. No, no 2:53:00.879 --> 2:53:02.959 one even remembers this anymore. And and it's it's because 2:53:03.120 --> 2:53:06.960 largely it's because of how just unbelievably badly these guys 2:53:07.000 --> 2:53:09.960 got stopped. Um, you know. And one of the other 2:53:10.040 --> 2:53:11.440 things that happens out of the product of this is 2:53:11.560 --> 2:53:13.720 this is where the G seven comes from. And it's 2:53:13.720 --> 2:53:17.160 originally and I think there's another thing. Yeah, the other 2:53:17.200 --> 2:53:18.920 funny part around this. So the G seven is originally 2:53:18.959 --> 2:53:21.000 a secret alliance, like through this whole through the whole seventies, 2:53:21.000 --> 2:53:23.800 nobody knows G seven exists. It's basically it starts as 2:53:23.840 --> 2:53:26.800 this like secret meeting of a bunch of finance ministers. 2:53:26.879 --> 2:53:30.280 Eventually they they add UH, Canada and I think Japan too, 2:53:30.280 --> 2:53:33.320 and it goes up to seven members and you know, 2:53:33.400 --> 2:53:35.120 and they have a couple of things they're trying to 2:53:35.160 --> 2:53:37.440 deal with. They're trying to deal with the economic collapse. 2:53:37.560 --> 2:53:39.000 But one of the big things, like one of the 2:53:39.040 --> 2:53:40.920 biggest things they're dealing with is the G seventy seven 2:53:40.959 --> 2:53:45.000 and OPEK and this this the result of this is 2:53:45.120 --> 2:53:49.440 this these enormous series of fights in UH implausibly the 2:53:49.600 --> 2:53:53.840 United Nations Conference on Trade and Development, which is I 2:53:53.959 --> 2:53:56.000 think this this is this is the last time ever 2:53:56.160 --> 2:53:58.119 that the fate of the entire world would be decided 2:53:58.280 --> 2:54:00.600 in a battle in like a sub committee of the 2:54:00.720 --> 2:54:04.560 U N And there's there's years and years and years 2:54:04.600 --> 2:54:09.760 of negotiations between well, the the G seven hasn't like 2:54:10.040 --> 2:54:11.800 openly to clear itself to G seven. It's sort of 2:54:11.879 --> 2:54:17.840 just it's basically the rich European countries so it's Canada, France, Germany, Italy, 2:54:18.080 --> 2:54:21.400 the UK, the US and Japan like for form this 2:54:21.480 --> 2:54:25.000 alliance and are like locked in together in order to 2:54:25.040 --> 2:54:27.560 stop the G seven from seventy seven from doing anything. 2:54:29.520 --> 2:54:32.040 And this is this is the this is the other. 2:54:32.120 --> 2:54:35.840 The other crisis that the neoliberals are responding to is 2:54:35.920 --> 2:54:37.760 it's it's not just and in many ways this is 2:54:37.800 --> 2:54:41.040 the one that scares them more because you know, it's 2:54:41.080 --> 2:54:42.640 not just that there's an economic crisis. It's not just 2:54:42.760 --> 2:54:45.000 that like capitalists are afraid because of losing money. It's 2:54:45.800 --> 2:54:49.880 if this stuff goes through, the entire balance of power 2:54:50.720 --> 2:54:53.600 in the entire global economy is going to change, and 2:54:53.760 --> 2:54:55.720 it's it's going to swing into the favor of a 2:54:55.800 --> 2:54:59.440 bunch of non Western countries and probably more most importantly, 2:54:59.480 --> 2:55:02.400 from the liberal They're going to enshrine the right of 2:55:02.520 --> 2:55:05.200 states to take things away from corporations and regulate them. 2:55:05.959 --> 2:55:12.400 And this is just absolutely completely unacceptable to both the 2:55:12.480 --> 2:55:17.280 neoliberals and just every single other organization that's even tangentially 2:55:17.400 --> 2:55:21.879 involved with sort of the Western nations. So the neo liberals, 2:55:22.280 --> 2:55:24.199 I talked about this a bit in in the last episode, 2:55:24.200 --> 2:55:27.560 which is that they they've been working on a strategy 2:55:27.640 --> 2:55:31.160 in order to take power that doesn't rely on states, 2:55:31.800 --> 2:55:36.039 and so what they've been doing for about twenty years 2:55:36.200 --> 2:55:39.920 is essentially infiltrating and working their way up through it 2:55:40.080 --> 2:55:43.600 like takes basically basically taking over uh, the International Monetary 2:55:43.640 --> 2:55:48.440 Fund in the World Bank who in this period and 2:55:48.560 --> 2:55:51.360 this is everything I think it is very weird and 2:55:51.480 --> 2:55:53.040 hard to remember, which is that the i m F 2:55:53.120 --> 2:55:56.240 and the World Bank, like there was a time when 2:55:56.280 --> 2:55:59.640 they weren't completely evil, Like like the i m F 2:55:59.760 --> 2:56:02.040 was basically set up to make sure that countries wouldn't 2:56:02.080 --> 2:56:03.840 just run out of money, right it was supposed to 2:56:03.840 --> 2:56:05.760 give people like yeah, and the World Bank, and it's 2:56:05.840 --> 2:56:09.320 it's turned into sort of this like international debt system 2:56:09.440 --> 2:56:13.680 for horror countries where they're always and being forced into 2:56:13.840 --> 2:56:16.600 austerity measures in the like yeah, yeah, and and that. 2:56:16.720 --> 2:56:18.520 But that that didn't used to be true. It used 2:56:18.560 --> 2:56:20.600 to be you know, the the i m F had 2:56:20.640 --> 2:56:22.240 a bunch of Kandians in it and sit same with 2:56:22.280 --> 2:56:24.200 the World Bank, and both both the i m F 2:56:24.240 --> 2:56:26.840 and the World Bank's leadership for a lot of this 2:56:26.959 --> 2:56:32.280 period wanted to negotiate and you know, and I think 2:56:32.360 --> 2:56:33.800 this is this, this is this is this is where 2:56:33.800 --> 2:56:38.840 we're gonna leave it here with basically, the the the 2:56:39.080 --> 2:56:42.240 entire world is an imp apocal crisis. There is the 2:56:42.640 --> 2:56:45.520 all the economies are collapsing, the sort of the the 2:56:45.920 --> 2:56:48.840 armies of of the anti colonial like world are moving, 2:56:49.680 --> 2:56:52.720 and the G seventy seven looks like it's it's literally 2:56:52.879 --> 2:56:56.680 on the verge of of you know, completely restructuring the 2:56:56.720 --> 2:56:58.600 economic system in a way that actually would have been 2:56:58.680 --> 2:57:02.480 slightly more fair and jazz than but the system that 2:57:02.520 --> 2:57:05.320 existed then, which was also infinitely more just and fair 2:57:05.360 --> 2:57:08.520 of the system that exist now. And next episode we're 2:57:08.520 --> 2:57:11.120 going to talk about how this all fell apart and 2:57:11.280 --> 2:57:15.000 how there was a choice in the seventies between either 2:57:15.080 --> 2:57:19.040 corporations can make money or people can have things. And 2:57:20.080 --> 2:57:22.920 the product of what the new Liberals are going to 2:57:23.000 --> 2:57:24.760 do in the next episode is that they are going 2:57:24.879 --> 2:57:27.560 to their solution to this problem is to tell the 2:57:27.720 --> 2:57:29.440 entire wretched of the earth to each it and die. 2:57:32.920 --> 2:57:40.880 And yeah, that's that's that's the episode. It's yeah, yeah, history. Yeah, 2:57:41.320 --> 2:57:45.760 it's it's a time. Um okay, uh, well we got 2:57:45.800 --> 2:57:51.000 any we got any any plugables? What do we what 2:57:51.080 --> 2:57:54.000 do we do. At the end of episodes, Sophie, where 2:57:54.000 --> 2:57:56.960 are we? Thank you? Are we? Thank you for listening. 2:57:57.360 --> 2:58:00.280 We'll be back on a day at a time. Maybe 2:58:01.440 --> 2:58:04.440 we're not hearing you, Sophie, I think you're muted. I'm 2:58:04.480 --> 2:58:09.640 not muted. I'm not muted. Oh, there we go. I'm 2:58:09.680 --> 2:58:13.080 not muted. I haven't remuted the whole time. We didn't 2:58:13.160 --> 2:58:19.960 hear you. That's so weird. I said, we'll be back 2:58:20.080 --> 2:58:22.920 on a day or a time, and yeah, at some 2:58:23.040 --> 2:58:27.080 point we'll be back. Find us then, uh, and find 2:58:27.160 --> 2:58:29.800 us tomorrow unless this comes out on Friday, in which 2:58:29.879 --> 2:58:32.920 case is going to Friday. Eat with your family. The 2:58:32.959 --> 2:58:37.040 ones who this is dropping on. Adopt a cat, Adopt 2:58:37.120 --> 2:58:41.720 two cats, maybe four cats. Adopt four cats. Yeah, get 2:58:41.760 --> 2:58:44.000 a number of cats greater than the number you have 2:58:44.240 --> 2:58:59.520 and put them in your house. We'll see you one Monday. Hey, 2:58:59.600 --> 2:59:02.720 we'll be act Monday, with more episodes every week from 2:59:02.760 --> 2:59:05.800 now until the heat death of the universe. It could happen. 2:59:05.879 --> 2:59:08.160 Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For more 2:59:08.240 --> 2:59:11.000 podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone 2:59:11.040 --> 2:59:12.840 media dot com, or check us out on the I 2:59:12.959 --> 2:59:16.200 Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, 2:59:16.840 --> 2:59:18.920 you can find sources for it could happen here. Updated 2:59:19.000 --> 2:59:22.480 monthly at cool Zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks 2:59:22.520 --> 2:59:25.920 for listening. Give us the oper attention. We need everything 2:59:26.000 --> 2:59:29.439 you've got fast. Waiting on Reparations would be the podcast. 2:59:29.680 --> 2:59:32.840 Tune in every Thursday politics and wordplay. We fight for 2:59:32.959 --> 2:59:35.000 the people because they got us in the worst way. 2:59:35.200 --> 2:59:38.200 From the Hill Cooper, the Bombay to cant from the 2:59:38.360 --> 2:59:41.520 left on Clave to what the neo kanz. 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In the 3:00:23.720 --> 3:00:26.560 ad Council, Raffie is the voice of some of the 3:00:26.720 --> 3:00:32.600 happiest songs of our generation Baby Lugga? So who is 3:00:32.720 --> 3:00:36.680 the man behind Baby Bluga? Every human being wants to 3:00:36.879 --> 3:00:41.320 feel respected. When we start with young children, all good 3:00:41.400 --> 3:00:44.840 things can grow from there. I'm Chris Garcia, Comedian, new 3:00:44.959 --> 3:00:47.840 dad and host of Finding Raffie, a new podcast from 3:00:47.879 --> 3:00:51.080 My Heart Radio and Fatherly. Listen every Tuesday on the 3:00:51.160 --> 3:00:53.920 I Heart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts.