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Speaker 1: The Gangster Chronicles podcast is a weekly conversation that revolves

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Speaker 1: around underworld, the criminals and entertainers, to victims, crime and

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Speaker 1: law enforcement. We cover all facets of the game. Gangster

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Speaker 1: Chronicles podcast doesn't glorify promotilist of activities. We just discussed

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Speaker 1: the ramifications and repercussions of these activities. Because at the

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Speaker 1: Wall she played gamester games. You are ultimately rewarded with

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Speaker 1: Gangster Prizes. Our Heart Radios number one for podcasts, but

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Speaker 1: don't take our award for it. Find Against the Chronicles

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Speaker 1: podcast and my Heart Radio app or wherever you get

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Speaker 1: your podcast. It's time to gear up for the NFL postseason.

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Speaker 1: Head over to NFL shop dot com today for the

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Speaker 1: NFL shop dot com. Hi. I'm Robert sex Reese, host

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Speaker 1: of The Doctor sex re Show, and every episode I

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Speaker 1: listened to people talk about their sex and intimacy issues

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Speaker 1: and yes I despise every minute of it, and she

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Speaker 1: she made mistakes too everyone at her wedding. But hell

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Speaker 1: is real. We're all trapped here and there's nothing any

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Speaker 1: of us can do about it. So join me. Won't you?

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Speaker 1: Listen to the Doctor Sex re Show every Tuesday on

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Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you

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Speaker 1: get your podcast. Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I

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Speaker 1: wanted to let you know. This is a compilation episode.

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Speaker 1: So every episode of the week that just happened is

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Speaker 1: here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package

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Speaker 1: for you to listen to in a long stretch if

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Speaker 1: you want. If you've been listening to the episodes every

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Speaker 1: day this week, there's gonna be nothing new here for you,

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Speaker 1: But you can make your own decisions. Robert doing the

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Speaker 1: run so we can start the badcast. Um, I think

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Speaker 1: we should just start the podcast with you asking, Robert,

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Speaker 1: do you want to grunt? So we can start the podcast.

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Speaker 1: Um that that seems avant garde. I don't know what

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Speaker 1: I want guard means, but this is it could happen here,

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Speaker 1: a podcast about how things are falling apart and how

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Speaker 1: maybe maybe they don't always need to be falling apart.

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Speaker 1: Maybe we could do better. Uh. Speaking of doing better,

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Speaker 1: you know one thing that sometimes helps us do better

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Speaker 1: getting getting in the face of people fucking shut up

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Speaker 1: and being like, hey, that's not that's not cool. Don't

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Speaker 1: be doing that, Garrison, that's your leading. Take it from here. Yeah. Hi,

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Speaker 1: So we I've been I've been trying to keep better,

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Speaker 1: a better job of like following ecological defense movements happening

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Speaker 1: both in the States and in other countries. I know

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Speaker 1: there was there was a big one up in Canada recently.

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Speaker 1: There was a huge one in Germany too, just the

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Speaker 1: other day. Um, I know, the the one, the one

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Speaker 1: in Canada. There's a uh the uh, I forget, I

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Speaker 1: forget what the actual indigenous group is called. Um maybe

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Speaker 1: maybe someone else. So the the um house on Sauti

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Speaker 1: Um yeah, the people who who who took back their

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Speaker 1: land and blocked the road off and now the to

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Speaker 1: and the wet suit end. Oh yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yes,

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Speaker 1: thank you. Um there we go. Yeah, basically taking their

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Speaker 1: land back, blocking off the road. And now our SAP

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Speaker 1: is getting called in and we'll see how that develops.

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Speaker 1: And in Guatemala there's protests against Canadian mining um in

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Speaker 1: maya indigenous community that have have have gotten pretty heavily

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Speaker 1: militarized at this point. There's fun, there's a lot of stuff.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of stuff off on psychological defense side

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Speaker 1: of things, um, including including in you know, the Pacific

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Speaker 1: Northwest here with all of with all of the forests

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Speaker 1: and and as such in this area and part of

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Speaker 1: this kind of exploration into into ecological defense. I wanted

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Speaker 1: to talk with some people who are a little little

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Speaker 1: bit more well versed in this type of thing than

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Speaker 1: I am. So I've there's the two people have agreed

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Speaker 1: to talk with us, um salmon cat put both people

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Speaker 1: who work who work on the kind of thing from

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Speaker 1: like an activism standpoint. Um, Yeah, say hi, Hello, hey y'all.

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Speaker 1: So very very thankful that they are going to be

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Speaker 1: talking with us today. So I thought we could we

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Speaker 1: could probably just start by kind of discussing what forest

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Speaker 1: defense is and how it kind of has a history

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Speaker 1: specifically in this area, but but kind of more broadly,

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Speaker 1: like if if people listened to the Earth First episodes,

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Speaker 1: you know, that kind of that covered like anti pipeline stuff,

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Speaker 1: but we didn't really get much into like forest defense,

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Speaker 1: and you know, like the traditional like tree sits and

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Speaker 1: that kind of thing. UM. So so yeah, what's what's

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Speaker 1: up with defending the forest? What's what's what's going on

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Speaker 1: with that? Um? Yeah, thanks for that great intro. UM.

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Speaker 1: I mean, forest defense is I think probably the most

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Speaker 1: characteristic UM type of direct action in this bioregion. And

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Speaker 1: here we're talking from Cascadia right now. I actually moved

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Speaker 1: out here from the East Coast ten years ago specifically

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Speaker 1: to get involved with forest defense because this place has

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Speaker 1: an incredibly rich history UM of people basically just throwing down,

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Speaker 1: risking life and limb to stop jain saws from taking

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Speaker 1: down some of the oldest and most special forests out here. UM.

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Speaker 1: And so i'd say, you know, for forest defense, direct

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Speaker 1: action is in a lot of ways rooted right here

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Speaker 1: UM in this bioregion. And obviously, UM, like all kinds

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Speaker 1: of movements, things have changed over the course of time.

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Speaker 1: UM back in the eighties. UM, when in seventies, when

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Speaker 1: forest defense was really really kicking up and stopping old

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Speaker 1: growth logging, specifically out here, when it was kind of

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Speaker 1: like rampant old growth UM clear cutting. UM, it really

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Speaker 1: took the shape of trying to focusing on ecology, focusing

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Speaker 1: on the integrity of these ecosystems and basically like doing

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Speaker 1: everything possible to stop the chainsaws. And Um, Now, obviously

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Speaker 1: a lot has changed. We have the Northwest Forest Plan

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Speaker 1: and some policies which are doing better to kind of

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Speaker 1: like protect old places and old forests. But at the

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Speaker 1: same time, the same ship is happening. Um. You know,

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Speaker 1: the timber industry is great at using euphemisms to kind

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Speaker 1: of cover up it's clear cutting anyways, and finding policy

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Speaker 1: loopholes to target some incredible places. And now I think, um,

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Speaker 1: where we're at with like the direct action movement is

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Speaker 1: we're in the context of climate change, So we're not

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Speaker 1: just defending forests for the stake of these like incredible

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Speaker 1: ecological strongholds, but we're also defending them because we recognize

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Speaker 1: that forest defense is climate defense. This is a like

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Speaker 1: environmental justice issue, it's a human issue, it's a community issue. UM.

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Speaker 1: And so now direct action I think, is you know,

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Speaker 1: happening not just the name of our forests, but in

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Speaker 1: the name of our communities in our future. UM. But

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Speaker 1: it's just as rich um now as it has ever been,

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Speaker 1: and especially right now and especially since which I know

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Speaker 1: we'll get into people have been throwing down all over

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Speaker 1: this fire region to protect what's left of our forests. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's it's good to get into kind

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Speaker 1: of why how the fires have impacted this because one

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Speaker 1: of the shady things that has been done is we

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Speaker 1: had I think most people in the country are where

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Speaker 1: Oregon had unprecedented wildfires this year, and we had unprecedented

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Speaker 1: wildfires last year, and we're going to have unprecedented wildfires

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Speaker 1: every year for a while. Um And whenever these fires

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Speaker 1: run through, they don't like destroy every tree in their wake,

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Speaker 1: but they char them. And logging companies then come in

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Speaker 1: under the guise of like, well, we have to make

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Speaker 1: this area safe so that like the fires don't burn

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Speaker 1: here next year. So we've got to cut down all

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Speaker 1: of these trees, um and and clear cut this part

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Speaker 1: of area of public four. So, like, as you're driving

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Speaker 1: around in forests that you used to be able to

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Speaker 1: do stuff, and you'll find areas that are just like

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Speaker 1: blocked off because mining companies are coming or logging companies

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Speaker 1: are coming through and clear cutting all of these trees

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Speaker 1: that could very easily recover from the fire, um or

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Speaker 1: that weren't even burned by it, but we're just like

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Speaker 1: in this area that they said, Okay, well we have

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Speaker 1: to clear this out in order to make it safe.

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Speaker 1: And it's kind of this way to like back door

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Speaker 1: and the guys of fire protection like expand logging. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and just to add to that to the logging companies

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Speaker 1: love to say that the reasons we have increased wildfires

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Speaker 1: because there's an overgrowth in the forest because of the

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Speaker 1: Northwest Forest plant, because there's more protections for the forest.

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Speaker 1: Fires are happening worse because we're not getting there bogging

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Speaker 1: the forest and removing all the fuel. M hm. So

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Speaker 1: we have like this two part thing that like Kat

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Speaker 1: just mentioned, where like, on the one hand, companies are like,

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Speaker 1: we need to log more to prevent wildfire, which is

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Speaker 1: bullshit and we can talk about why. And on the

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Speaker 1: other hand, after fires burned through an yeah, they're like,

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Speaker 1: we need to log because we need to help the

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Speaker 1: forest recover ecologically. Also, we need to salvage all of

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Speaker 1: the timber before it rots and goes bad, and like

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Speaker 1: all of these reasons and so basically it's just like

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Speaker 1: fire has become the excuse to just like log preemptively

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Speaker 1: and log after the fact, and yeah, it's a total

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Speaker 1: total ship show. Yeah. I mean I think this this

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Speaker 1: kind of falls into capitalists trying to use climate change

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Speaker 1: is just another way to find things to extract and

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Speaker 1: things to grow on. Right, It's they're they're going to

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Speaker 1: try to find their own way to sneak in when

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Speaker 1: all of this you know, ecological disaster is happening to

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Speaker 1: you know, sell you whatever green safe product is going

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Speaker 1: to help against the collapse, or you know, package things

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Speaker 1: in a way that makes it seem like it's solving

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Speaker 1: this you know problem, but it's actually it's part of

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Speaker 1: it's part of the same thing industry from the yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Right,

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Speaker 1: it's it's you see this in every single industry, and

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Speaker 1: it's always it's it's gonna be like this because this

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Speaker 1: is the only way that capitalism knows how to address

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Speaker 1: this issue is by just turning it into another turning

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Speaker 1: it into another thing to consume, another thing to sell

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Speaker 1: in package. Pretty pretty grib yeah. And there's I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's cascading effects too, because they cut down these trees

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Speaker 1: under the guise of making it safe for the next

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Speaker 1: fire season, but which also makes a big chunk of

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Speaker 1: land a lot more vulnerable to like mud slides and

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Speaker 1: the torrential raining that we're having right now. Um, and

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Speaker 1: it's also going to get more common, because that's how

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Speaker 1: fucking climate change works. It's it's just like the comprehensive

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Speaker 1: fury comprehensive. And let us be clear too, that logging

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Speaker 1: doesn't actually work to prevent wildfire, you know, even you know,

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Speaker 1: they say that it does, but the kind of logging

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Speaker 1: that they do in the name of wildfire prevention just

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Speaker 1: looks like clear cuts. And we have a pretty robust

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Speaker 1: body of science now showing that those kinds of activities

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Speaker 1: actually make fire hazard more severe for local communities. So

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Speaker 1: that's like one of the things they're doing. And we've

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Speaker 1: been calling it just gaslighting, like they're gaslighting all of

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Speaker 1: us by saying, you know, there's nothing to see here,

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Speaker 1: there's nothing to see here. We're taking care of you all,

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Speaker 1: you know, we're barely logging at all. And then we've

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Speaker 1: got community members on the ground, um, despite the closure

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Speaker 1: orders who are like, actually there's a lot to see here,

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Speaker 1: and you all are like completely devastating the landscape and

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Speaker 1: further harming our communities. Um. So yeah, it's total gaslighting. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: an Oregon has both in terms of like watching fires

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Speaker 1: and watching logging some like rules that are not in

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Speaker 1: place in other areas, especially for like even for for

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Speaker 1: press and the like. Like it's it's actually hard to

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Speaker 1: get in to look at this stuff, um without you know,

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Speaker 1: breaking some sort of law technically, which is not at

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Speaker 1: all shady. Um. Yeah, yeah, I feel like that's another

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Speaker 1: important thing. And maybe cat can jump onto is just

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Speaker 1: um basically, I mean, I think what people aren't understanding

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Speaker 1: is that after the fire, the these federal forest managers

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Speaker 1: closed gates and essentially are converting public land into private

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Speaker 1: land by you know, using the threat of violence to

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Speaker 1: kick people out if they go onto their public land.

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Speaker 1: And since and they say until at least the only

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Speaker 1: folks allowed behind these gates are cops and loggers. And

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Speaker 1: so this is like literally, um, you know, the enclosure

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Speaker 1: of our public lands and like the privatization of our

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Speaker 1: public lands so that cops and loggers can do whatever

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Speaker 1: the hell they want. Yep. And it's the kind of

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Speaker 1: thing I mean, it's the kind of thing that people

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Speaker 1: if you're if you're if the if the Bundy's and

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Speaker 1: that group actually meant the stuff they were saying, like

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Speaker 1: the rhetoric they were putting out, it's the kind of

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Speaker 1: thing they would be piste off about. Two, Because you're right,

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Speaker 1: it is the enclosure of public land by the government

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Speaker 1: UM and corporations without any kind of consent from the

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Speaker 1: people who are supposed to be the collective owners of

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Speaker 1: that land. It's it's a again something that a lot

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Speaker 1: of people should be angry about, who aren't angry about

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Speaker 1: because there's been this huge propaganda campaign in the Northwest

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Speaker 1: about timber unity and the like and like supporting the

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Speaker 1: timber industry UM by destroying like the single greatest gift

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Speaker 1: this entire part of the world has. Uh, it's it's

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Speaker 1: pretty frustrating. Ye. Anyway, I have to we have to

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Speaker 1: actually have a quick break so I can go watch

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Speaker 1: my soccer game at the Timber Stadium. Uh, completely unrelated.

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Speaker 1: So I'm gonna drive out to Wheeler, Oregon myself. But

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Speaker 1: we all have different things to do during the break, um.

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Speaker 1: But also in the break, I guess we could probably

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Speaker 1: do an AD break here because why not? All right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: everybody loves ads and we're back still talking about force defense.

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Speaker 1: I wonder there's something that people should probably know before

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Speaker 1: we go further about the way that that Oregon works.

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Speaker 1: So for a while, Oregon is a place where you

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Speaker 1: can't get elected, um in a lot of parts of

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Speaker 1: a lot of populated parts of Oregon if you're a Republican.

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Speaker 1: So the Republicans just plain ice um and and pretend

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Speaker 1: and like throw out some some social justice e language

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Speaker 1: while while still doing all of the extract of stuff

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Speaker 1: they were going to do anyway. And that's the story

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Speaker 1: with like Ted Wheeler, um and his family. So Ted

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Speaker 1: Ted Wheeler, the mayor of Portland, comes from timber money.

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Speaker 1: His father was a major Republican donor. Not that the

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Speaker 1: Democrats don't have a lot of extractive history behind them,

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Speaker 1: but like it's it's very obvious what's happening with the

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Speaker 1: Wheelers where um, they were huge Republican donors and huge

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Speaker 1: backers of the right, and then Oregon had this kind

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Speaker 1: of switch politically, um, And so Ted Wheeler just started

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Speaker 1: throwing out nice social justicey language. But the the whole

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Speaker 1: you know, he's he's I'm sure going to make a

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Speaker 1: run for governor at some point in the near future.

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Speaker 1: And you've got this like this dressed up very extractive

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Speaker 1: logging industry and politicians that always find a way to

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Speaker 1: kind of make it seem palatable to the liberal majority.

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Speaker 1: Um that. And they've gotten pretty good at that because

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Speaker 1: it doesn't I don't know, I think maybe we're coming

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Speaker 1: to the end of this period, but like I haven't,

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Speaker 1: I haven't seen up until this last year a lot

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Speaker 1: of widespread kind of outrage about the clear cutting um.

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Speaker 1: And they also hide it pretty well. Like if you're

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Speaker 1: driving through these beautiful public forests in Oregon, the areas

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Speaker 1: that are right along the road will generally be pristine

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Speaker 1: and you'll see old growth and everything. But sometimes you

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Speaker 1: can see as you like turn a corner or something

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Speaker 1: that like, oh, that old growth only goes back a

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Speaker 1: couple of couple of dozen yards and then it's a

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Speaker 1: clear cut um and they'll they'll they'll hide it so

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Speaker 1: that it's it's not as obvious because they know what

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Speaker 1: upsets people. So there's this there's this kind of surprisingly

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Speaker 1: um surprisingly thorough campaign to do as much of this

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Speaker 1: as possible without upsetting people UM which which means there's

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Speaker 1: a potential to upset people, which means there's a potential

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Speaker 1: to actually stop this if enough people get upset. But

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Speaker 1: it's you know, you're you're you're going against folks who

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Speaker 1: have thought a lot about how to do this in

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Speaker 1: a way that isn't going to upset the apple cart.

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Speaker 1: So how do you upset the apple cart? I guess

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Speaker 1: that is what I'm asking. Well, I think one way

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Speaker 1: that we upset the apple cart is by bringing people

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Speaker 1: out to these places. And you know, in the action

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Speaker 1: that happened on Tuesday that looked like disrupting and disobeying

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Speaker 1: a federal closure order in order to bring people out

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Speaker 1: to these places. Um, you know, basically metaphorically walking behind

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Speaker 1: what you were describing the beauty strip along the highway

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Speaker 1: and seeing what's behind it. Um. And you know, as

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Speaker 1: we were saying earlier, unfortunately, because of all these federal

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Speaker 1: closure orders after the fire, that looks like risking um,

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Speaker 1: you know, repercussion, state repression, arrest even um, in order

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Speaker 1: to just lay eyes on it. But that is the

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Speaker 1: way that we check the apple cart. We get people

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Speaker 1: to see these places so that it cuts through the

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Speaker 1: gas lighting that the industry is doing and people can

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Speaker 1: literally viscerally feel and see the damage. Um. And there's

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Speaker 1: no way to convince them that that's okay. Once they

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Speaker 1: see it, and how do you do go about like

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Speaker 1: finding people to bring into this, convincing people to come

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Speaker 1: Like what does kind of that effort look like? You

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Speaker 1: want to answer this one cat, You did a ton

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Speaker 1: of recruitment, Yeah, totally. Um. I think a big part

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Speaker 1: of it is getting them while they're young. UM. I

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Speaker 1: think that like young people right now are already pretty radicalized,

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Speaker 1: um compared to ten years or so, probably because of

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Speaker 1: I think George Floyd and Black Lives Matter and social

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Speaker 1: the use of social media and those movements. Um. So

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Speaker 1: I I am a college student and we're seeing like

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Speaker 1: so many people coming in and ready to throw down,

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Speaker 1: like they just cannot wait to get involved, and we'll

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Speaker 1: kind of just show up to anything. Um. So. I

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Speaker 1: think that that's like a major tactic for sure. UM.

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Speaker 1: And then also making sure it when you have like

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Speaker 1: a an action that you're recruiting people for that it's

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Speaker 1: I'm very easy to plug in. It's like very accessible,

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Speaker 1: um and kind of just like having it organized very

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Speaker 1: well so it's not daunting to come in. Do you

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Speaker 1: want to add to that, Sam, Well, just to like

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Speaker 1: share a little more about like how we did that

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Speaker 1: with this particular action. That happened on Tuesday. UM. Basically,

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Speaker 1: you know, we it was a Tuesday, brainy, freezing middle

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Speaker 1: of the forest planning this action, did not think and

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Speaker 1: behind a federal closure order. So everyone on site risking

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Speaker 1: arrest um and planning this action, it felt like we

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Speaker 1: would be lucky as ship if we got ten people

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Speaker 1: out there. UM. But I will say, UM, it was

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Speaker 1: easy as ship to get fifty people out there. And

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Speaker 1: that's because people care. UM. And you know, I think

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Speaker 1: we did. In terms of organizing strategy, we use the

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Speaker 1: affinity group model, and so we had a core you know,

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Speaker 1: there was a core group of organizers, and those organizers

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Speaker 1: recruited through affinity groups and their affinity groups and UM.

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Speaker 1: That helped to keep kind of information secure and UM,

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Speaker 1: you know, everything tightly organized. But UM, people want. People

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Speaker 1: were really desiring to get together and do something. Especially

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Speaker 1: in the past couple of years of COVID, people are

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Speaker 1: just like eager to do something. UM. And on top

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Speaker 1: of that, you know, we we promised that this isn't

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Speaker 1: just an opportunity to potentially get arrested, but this is

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Speaker 1: an educational opportunity and a movement building opportunities. So while

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Speaker 1: the road was blocked with a slash pile and a

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Speaker 1: fire truck. There were workshops going on, There were hikes

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Speaker 1: going on in the forest that's supposed to be cut UM.

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Speaker 1: There was discussions about know your rights trainings and affinity groups.

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Speaker 1: We had UM a band um playing on top of

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Speaker 1: a fire truck, and there was a dance party and basically,

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Speaker 1: you know, we're like building community and solidarity UM in

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Speaker 1: a positive way while sucking shut up. I think that's

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Speaker 1: the key. And I mean, where do you uh, how

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Speaker 1: do how do you have like what is the let

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Speaker 1: me think of a way to phrase this. What is

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Speaker 1: kind of the next step here because they haven't started

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Speaker 1: logging this area yet, but they're kind of doing like

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Speaker 1: the pre prep work. Um, what do you what do

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Speaker 1: you think actually can be done to to halt it?

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Speaker 1: Like is it is it a problem? Like because it

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Speaker 1: seems to me that it's there's got to be like

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Speaker 1: a mix of tactics there to actually get them to stop.

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Speaker 1: And you're dealing with a number of different UM threats,

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Speaker 1: including not just at the state level, but these federal

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Speaker 1: closure orders. Like what is I don't know what what

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Speaker 1: does the path forward look like to you? Yeah? So

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Speaker 1: there's a preliminary injunction being forth by some nonprofits, and

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Speaker 1: so this is a really good example of different tactics

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Speaker 1: coming in and so UM, the preliminary injunction is basically

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Speaker 1: to state that what they're doing before service is doing

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Speaker 1: is illegal. UM. But before that that can be passed,

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Speaker 1: they can come in at any point and log the area.

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Speaker 1: And so that's where direct action comes in to slow

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Speaker 1: them down and halt them as much as possible until

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Speaker 1: the courts can process that injunction. And that feels really

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Speaker 1: huge to Like what Kat just said is like where

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Speaker 1: is the place of direct action in forest defense? This

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Speaker 1: is like the golden moment for direct action while there's

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Speaker 1: like an open legal case that we're waiting on a

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Speaker 1: judge to settle, and the timber industry is like coming

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Speaker 1: in ready to moot out the case by logging before

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Speaker 1: it can even be decided. And like to just add

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Speaker 1: a little bit more backstory to on, like, another reason

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Speaker 1: why people are so pissed about this um is that

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Speaker 1: you know, this watershed has been I think like beloved

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Speaker 1: and also embattled since the eighties, Like the infamous Easter

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Speaker 1: massacre logging event happened in the same watershed where could

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Speaker 1: eye Yeah, no, totally um it. A timber company was

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Speaker 1: planning to clear cut log old growth forest out there

399
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Speaker 1: and started moving on it on Easter UM in the snow,

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Speaker 1: and a bunch of badass direct action activists set up

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Speaker 1: a five tiered blockade on a logging road to hold

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Speaker 1: off the logging and successfully did for um days and

403
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Speaker 1: days until a bunch of them, I think over a

404
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Speaker 1: dozen folks got arrested, thrown in jail and the forest

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Speaker 1: was clear cut. UM. So hence you know the Eastern

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Speaker 1: massacre name UM. But a ton of folks who you

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Speaker 1: know still work in force events in the spy A region.

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Speaker 1: We're there and remember that story and we're with us

409
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Speaker 1: um when we were out there this week telling that story.

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Speaker 1: And you know since then, between and now, people have

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Speaker 1: been showing up again and again and again in this

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Speaker 1: watershed because it is so special to try and fight

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Speaker 1: off logging, and myself and Cat have been a part

414
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Speaker 1: of efforts over the past handful of years to um

415
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Speaker 1: fight off a number of logging projects out there. We

416
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Speaker 1: were successful in doing that. We actually snacked the forest

417
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Speaker 1: services grubby hands off of a bunch of oil growth

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Speaker 1: because our scrappy friends spent days exploring this watershed and

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Speaker 1: documenting doing like site specific science, citizen science documentation and

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Speaker 1: giving it to the Forest Service. And we fought them

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Speaker 1: and one and protected a bunch of the forest. And

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Speaker 1: then the fires came through and they closed the gates

423
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Speaker 1: and they secretly changed all of these contracts to include

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Speaker 1: clear cut logging. And so that is why there is

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Speaker 1: an open lawsuit because we believe it's illegal what they're doing.

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Speaker 1: It's sketchy and illegal, Yeah, but it does it does

427
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Speaker 1: illustrate like kind of the depth of the fight necessary,

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Speaker 1: not just in forest defense, but at all efforts of

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Speaker 1: kind of resisting the extract of industries that are driving

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Speaker 1: a lot of climate change. It's it's not enough, it's

431
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 1: never enough to win the first victory. They're going to

432
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 1: find some way to to to swoop around to the

433
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,119
Speaker 1: flanks and try to take it away from you, like

434
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:57,359
Speaker 1: they're doing right now. Um, which is exhausting. Um, it

435
00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:03,560
Speaker 1: seems exhausting, but it doesn't mean it. You can ignore it.

436
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 1: It's fucking exhausting. Yeah. I always say it's like our forests,

437
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 1: our federal management agencies, they suffer from this powerful amnesia

438
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:12,680
Speaker 1: where they just like keep coming back with the same

439
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 1: bullshit proposals, but like our movement does not suffer from that,

440
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,160
Speaker 1: and we are just like building power and getting stronger

441
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 1: and getting more successful. So like when people left on Tuesday, UM,

442
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 1: there was a promise that people will be back if

443
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 1: logging happens, and we're very sure that that would be

444
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 1: the case. And if if people are in the Cascadian

445
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:37,920
Speaker 1: bioregion and are like, well this sounds pretty sweet. I wanna,

446
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 1: I wanna, I wanna keep keep some trees where they

447
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 1: are as opposed to putting them on the back of

448
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 1: a truck to drive somewhere else. How could they get involved?

449
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 1: Where where might they reach out to? Well, there's a

450
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 1: few different groups who were a part of this, UM

451
00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:02,239
Speaker 1: definitely UM, the Portland Rising Tide, Cascadia Forest Defenders, UM

452
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 1: CAT can talk about Climate Justice League and UM maybe

453
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:07,439
Speaker 1: the action that you all put on yesterday as a

454
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:09,399
Speaker 1: follow up, and like how folks can get involved with

455
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,439
Speaker 1: that UM But basically, yeah, you can follow us on Twitter,

456
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 1: UM and Instagram and and please, UM, you know, keep

457
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:17,960
Speaker 1: a lookout because we will be we'll be getting it

458
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,160
Speaker 1: out far and wide. If there's a call for folks

459
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 1: to get out there again. Yeah, and Climate Justice League

460
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 1: is an organ UM at the University of Oregon and

461
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,440
Speaker 1: people are free to just join the organization. Community members

462
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,399
Speaker 1: are also involved. UM. But we did put on an

463
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 1: event yesterday where Tyler Ferres of Ferris Logging or First

464
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 1: Timber UM, who is actually the company that bought the

465
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:46,919
Speaker 1: rights to Brighton Bush, which was the area where we

466
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 1: did UM the action on Tuesday, he was giving a

467
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,399
Speaker 1: speech at the University of Oregon UM to talk about

468
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,399
Speaker 1: post fire logging, which was just like crazy timing. They

469
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 1: kind of just like put it in our lap, and

470
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 1: so we recruited from that action or like let's just

471
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,119
Speaker 1: drop the hell out of this UM talk, and so

472
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 1: we like showed up and kind of tried to sneak in.

473
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 1: They were having zoom issues, which like luckily distracted them

474
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 1: from the fact that there was like forty or fifty

475
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 1: like pretty punk anarchy looking kids in the room. UM.

476
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,920
Speaker 1: But we like let him go on for a little

477
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 1: bit and then we started to ask him questions that

478
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 1: he obviously didn't know the answer to. UM. We kept

479
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 1: like asking questions about you know, the science says this,

480
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 1: but you're stating this where you getting your science from.

481
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 1: And he kept saying things like, well, that's more of

482
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,919
Speaker 1: a political question and the statistics don't really back up

483
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,360
Speaker 1: what you're saying, um. And then yeah, we just chanted

484
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,679
Speaker 1: and made him really nervous. Yeah. And as a heads up,

485
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:43,679
Speaker 1: if you're if you're looking to win an argument on

486
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 1: a zoom call, you can just say, uh, the statistics

487
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,400
Speaker 1: don't back you up without citing statistics. It's it's it's

488
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 1: really the easiest way to do that. I guess it'll

489
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 1: kind of curious for like you guys said, you've you've

490
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 1: prevented you know, some of the stuff in the past

491
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:03,400
Speaker 1: by doing stuff like documentation, um. And you know when

492
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 1: when when that kind of thing becomes not enough. You

493
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,639
Speaker 1: know that this this area does have a rich history

494
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,919
Speaker 1: of kind of direct action stuff to protect forests with

495
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: a get also like a mixed success, like by no

496
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 1: means does direct action always always work to do anything?

497
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 1: Right now, we still have the line three pipeline, we

498
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 1: still have all of these things that direct action has

499
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 1: tried to prevent. But it turns out a lot of

500
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,400
Speaker 1: the kind of direct action that's associated with these types

501
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 1: of like ecological things is kind of more performative than

502
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,159
Speaker 1: anything else, you know, like it is kind of like

503
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:40,159
Speaker 1: a tree set is about gaining media media like publicity,

504
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 1: because they're gonna get you down right like eventually, and

505
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: it's and it's and it's gonna be painful because like

506
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 1: you're not going to be sitting up there for years

507
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 1: to to to to to to prevent the treat from

508
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,479
Speaker 1: being logged. So how close do you think we are

509
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: into to like reaching that kind of territory like it

510
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 1: was in like the nineties and eighties where it is

511
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,160
Speaker 1: like a lot of lot of people like blocking off

512
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 1: roads and doing and doing that kind of thing. You know,

513
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 1: more like you know what what it crosses into that

514
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,160
Speaker 1: it's more like autonomous. It's not it's not like led

515
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 1: by a single organization by any means. See, it's more

516
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,640
Speaker 1: it's more decentralized. But did you see that kind of

517
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,679
Speaker 1: happening soon? And you know, how, how how do you

518
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 1: think we can balance out direct action with like other

519
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 1: like thoughtful means of trying to draw attention to these

520
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 1: things and maybe actually and and other things like actually

521
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 1: physically physically preventing the logging of certain areas. That's such

522
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 1: a good question And UM, I'm really thankful that we're

523
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 1: talking about strategy because um, kind of, like I mentioned,

524
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 1: I moved out here like ten years ago to do

525
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 1: forest defense work and have seen so many instances in

526
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 1: where people are trying to do direct action in a

527
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 1: in a time and space where it doesn't make sense, UM,

528
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 1: where it's like basically slated too. It's going to lose

529
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,719
Speaker 1: because it's just impossible too. As you said, you know,

530
00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: hold this blockade for weeks and weeks and weeks and

531
00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 1: the snow um indefinitely, you know, as we you know,

532
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 1: as they continue to try to log indefinitely. So there's

533
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 1: definitely a sweet spot for where um, the sort of

534
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 1: kind of the sort of direct action that we're talking about,

535
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 1: like blockading, where that is most useful. And that sweet

536
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: spot is definitely when there is another decisive move, like

537
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 1: another like legal victory that's waiting in the wings or um.

538
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 1: You know, we won one in Washington without a legal

539
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,479
Speaker 1: victory because we shamed the ship out of the Department

540
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 1: of Natural Resources in the Seattle Times and they were

541
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 1: like WHOA, We're sorry, um, And so direct action held

542
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 1: off something until we were able to sufficiently shame them

543
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 1: and deter them, but typically they don't shame well, um

544
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 1: and so typically, um, you know, we need illegal there

545
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 1: needs to be a legal element um backing it up.

546
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 1: So direct action is a time buyer. But that said,

547
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 1: like obviously, blockading things is not the only type of

548
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 1: direct action, and part of the rich history of force

549
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 1: events in the Spire region is other kinds of more

550
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 1: um necess fairly you know, discrete kinds of direct action

551
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 1: that obviously you know, I'm um not a part of

552
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 1: speaking on this radio show, but um, what would publicly,

553
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 1: um you know say like those things probably need to happen,

554
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 1: and I hope they have what what what? What I

555
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 1: could say is that I've I've seen these things happening

556
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 1: in other places, like in like in the Atlanta Defending

557
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 1: Forest movement right now, I have I I have seen

558
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: evidence that individuals not associated with any group are putting

559
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 1: spikes and trees, and that is that is that is

560
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 1: something that is happening, right, And all that takes is

561
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 1: one person, right, It's that's not like a group of

562
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 1: twenty people going into the forest to do that. That's

563
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 1: the one person in an afternoon, right. So those are

564
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 1: the types of like single person direct actions, which again, yeah,

565
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 1: any type of direct action is going to be scary,

566
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 1: right You're you're once you start doing that, that is

567
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 1: you know, that introduces certain things that will is is

568
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 1: kind of is kind of more frightening to you as

569
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 1: a person. Um. But but it's it is something that

570
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 1: is happening in other places, is um. And it has

571
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 1: showed to at the very least upset the people who

572
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 1: are wanting logging to happen. Generally, they're not thrilled when

573
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: they when they find when when they find these things um. Yeah, yeah,

574
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 1: because like it's like it's I mean, I think like

575
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 1: when it comes down to it, it's like about knowing

576
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 1: what your goal is with this tactic. Like on you know,

577
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 1: in in the action that happened this past week, there

578
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 1: was an understanding that the goal was to you know,

579
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 1: shine a light on this thing that's happening in secrecy,

580
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: shame the Forest Service, and build movement movement building so

581
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 1: that we're ready when people need to throw down for

582
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 1: real and and and that might happen soon. We weren't

583
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 1: trying to hold the space for weeks and weeks and weeks. Um.

584
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 1: That wasn't the goal. So like going in being like,

585
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 1: what kind of an action are we trying to do?

586
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 1: What are we trying to complish? Are we trying to

587
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 1: be decisive? Are we trying to like shape the conditions

588
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: necessary for success and like culture build, or were trying

589
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 1: like what are we actually trying to do? And then

590
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 1: like coming away with that, having having that clear having

591
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 1: a clear sense of that beforehand, I think really really

592
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 1: is crucial because I've definitely observed direct actions where that

593
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 1: is not the case, and people have not thought those

594
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 1: things through and it becomes the kind of unfun version

595
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 1: of chaos, um where you know, things, things don't really

596
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 1: get done, and you're just kind of sitting around and

597
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 1: everyone's kind of slightly miserable because again you're in a

598
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 1: freezing forest, um, and no one really knows what the

599
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 1: hell they're doing. Um. So definitely having those kind of

600
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 1: things thoughts through beforehand is extremely useful when you're deciding

601
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 1: to trudge your way into some cold, dark woods. Yeah,

602
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:42,719
Speaker 1: we're going for a chaotic good, not chaotic evil. Yeah, well,

603
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 1: a little bit of chaotic. Well, it depends, it depends

604
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 1: what it depends what we mean by evil evil evil

605
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 1: to some people, we we yeah, anyway, Um, and any

606
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 1: other kind of historical notes on forest defense or any

607
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 1: other kind of random, random tidbits you like to mention

608
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 1: before before we close out. The one thing that I

609
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: feel like it's super important to say to people is

610
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 1: that forest defense is not just about protecting forests. It's

611
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 1: about protecting all of us. We know now like forest defenses,

612
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 1: climate defense. Our forests are our best natural tool for

613
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 1: fighting climate change. And also like we need them here.

614
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 1: Most of Oregon get their drinking water from forest and

615
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 1: water sheds, like they literally are sustaining all of us.

616
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 1: And so yeah, we hope folks join, like not just

617
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 1: for the sake of like being you know, hippie tree huggers,

618
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 1: even though you know some of us are, but also

619
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: because like we need to survive as a people and

620
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 1: as a planet, and um forests our best way to

621
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 1: do that. It's it's the cheapest most advanced form of

622
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 1: carbon capture we have yet. So yeah, it seems seems

623
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 1: kind of asinine to chop that all down to build

624
00:33:52,960 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: some shitty sheds. M hmm, all right, well that's a Swede. Hi.

625
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,360
Speaker 1: I'm Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're the

626
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 1: hosts of the science podcast Stuff to Blow Your Mind,

627
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 1: where every week we get to explore some of the

628
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629
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630
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Speaker 1: organisms that inhabit our human bodies? Can we find evidence

631
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Speaker 1: of emotions in animals like bees, ants, and crayfish? How

632
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641
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Speaker 1: the peach pit. On the podcast nine O two one

645
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 1: OMG joined Jenny Garth and Tori Spelling for a rewatch

646
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 1: of the hit series Beverly Hills nine O two one oh.

647
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,720
Speaker 1: From the very beginning, we get to tell the fans

648
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 1: all of the behind the scenes stories to actually happen,

649
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 1: so they know what happened on camera, obviously, but we

650
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 1: can tell them all the good stuff that happened off camera.

651
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 1: Get all the juicy details of every episode that you've

652
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 1: been wondering about for decades. As nine O two one

653
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 1: oh super fan and radio host Sissany sits in with

654
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 1: Jenny and Tory, two reminisce, reflect and relive each moment,

655
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 1: from Brandon and Kelly's first kiss to shouting Donna Martin graduates,

656
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 1: you have an amazing memory. You remember everything about the

657
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,359
Speaker 1: entire ten years that we filmed that show, and you

658
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 1: remember absolutely nothing of the ten years that we film

659
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 1: that show. Listen to nine O two one OMG on

660
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

661
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. I'm Jake Halbern, host of Deep Cover.

662
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,239
Speaker 1: Our new season is about a lawyer who helped the

663
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:19,320
Speaker 1: mob run Chicago. We controlled the courts, we controlled absolutely everything.

664
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,879
Speaker 1: He bribed judges and even helped a hit man walk

665
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 1: free until one day when he started talking with the

666
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 1: FBI and promised that he could take the mob down.

667
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:32,399
Speaker 1: I've spent the past year trying to figure out why

668
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,799
Speaker 1: he flipped and what he was really after. From my perspective,

669
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 1: Bob was too good to be true. There's got to

670
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:40,839
Speaker 1: be something wrong with this. I wouldn't trust the guy.

671
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 1: He looks like a little scum, big layer, stool pidging.

672
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,399
Speaker 1: He looked like what he was or at. I can

673
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 1: say with all certainty I think he's a hero because

674
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 1: he didn't have to do what he did, and he

675
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 1: did it anyway. The moment I put the wire around

676
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,319
Speaker 1: the first time, my life was over. If it ever

677
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 1: got out, they would kill me in a heartbeat. Listen

678
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 1: to the cover on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

679
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:16,359
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. It's it could Happen here,

680
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 1: the podcast that occasionally has ads from Washington State Highway Patrol.

681
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 1: On a completely unrelated note, Garrison, you want to talk

682
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 1: about the Washington State Highway Patrol today, I sure would

683
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 1: love to talk about our our good friends at the

684
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 1: Washington State Patrol um because yeah, they just they've've they've

685
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: come up on my radar in a in an unrelated matter,

686
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 1: and now we're gonna talking about So now we're talking

687
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 1: about them. Yeah, so this is the show about things

688
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 1: falling apart and kind of part of societal and political

689
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 1: stuff kind of crumbling. Usually that gets related to some

690
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 1: type of law enforcement agency more often than not. And uh,

691
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 1: in terms of like tensions rising in stuff, there's a

692
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 1: lot of you know, force gets force gets exerted via

693
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 1: law enforcement and uh, one such law enforcement Yeah. Well,

694
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,840
Speaker 1: and one such agency that does this is called the

695
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 1: Washington State Patrol. UM. So they were I I don't know,

696
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 1: I I just discovered them recently. UM. So they were

697
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 1: founded exactly one hundred years ago. UM. And they were

698
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 1: originally called the Washington State Highway Patrol UM. Now they're

699
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:28,759
Speaker 1: just the Washington State Patrol. They were moved Highway, but

700
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 1: they still do the same thing. They're basically glorified traffic

701
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 1: cops um who operate all around all around Washington State. UM.

702
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 1: And we're gonna talk about some of the ways that

703
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 1: they've been making things worse within the past decade. UM.

704
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:48,839
Speaker 1: I'm since they have a one hundred year history, I'm

705
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 1: sure we can find lots of historical examples. UM, but

706
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 1: we're we're gonna we're gonna do stuff that's more that

707
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 1: is more recent, because this is you know, generally trying

708
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 1: to keep things around the current, the current crumbling. Um.

709
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 1: And because we're gonna talk about police, the first the

710
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,800
Speaker 1: first thing we're gonna be discussing, oddly enough, is a

711
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:13,799
Speaker 1: racism um because I know, Um, when you think of

712
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,879
Speaker 1: Washington State Patrol, that's you know, it's it's kind of

713
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,840
Speaker 1: shocking that they might have a race issue. Um. So, Anyway,

714
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 1: twelve years ago, researchers working with working with Washington State

715
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 1: Patrol found that troopers were searching drivers from minority communities,

716
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 1: particularly um local Native American tribes, at a much higher

717
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 1: rate than than white people. And they recommend an additional study,

718
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:43,319
Speaker 1: which the Washington State Patrol declined to UH to investigate further.

719
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 1: They they're like, no, um, no, no more studies. So meanwhile,

720
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 1: since then, the troopers have continued to continue to search

721
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 1: Native Americans at a at a rate much higher more

722
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 1: than five times than that of of of white people

723
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 1: in the area. Yeah, so but there are five times

724
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 1: as the popular there, there's five times as many Indigenous

725
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 1: people in Washington as white people right there, there's not.

726
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, ok. So an analysis by Investigate West showed

727
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 1: that the Patrol continued to do searches at a much

728
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 1: elevated rates for for black people, Latino, Pacific Islanders, and

729
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:28,840
Speaker 1: natives within Washington State. UM. And yet when when troopers

730
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 1: did decide to search white motorists, they were more likely

731
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 1: to find drugs in contraband. UM. Which is something to

732
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 1: Washington State Patrol actually acknowledges is that when when they

733
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 1: search people of minority communities, they are less likely to

734
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 1: find to find illegal things. Yeah. I mean that's yeah

735
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 1: nationwide and very very robust data. So UM, government records

736
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 1: obtained via like from information requests and various other you

737
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:02,799
Speaker 1: know of public records searches UM also show that there

738
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:05,720
Speaker 1: there there is a state law that Washington State Patrol

739
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 1: is supposed to collect and report semi annually to the

740
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 1: Criminal Justice Training Commission in Washington. UM about you know,

741
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 1: race and ethnicity data of motorists is tapped by troopers.

742
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 1: But uh so this is supposed supposed happen semi annually,

743
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 1: but the agency report of those findings only three times

744
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 1: in the past fifteen years. Which isn't sounds kind of

745
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 1: like the Portland police not doing the things that federally

746
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:33,439
Speaker 1: they're supposed to do because they're so violent. Yeah, being

747
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 1: out of compliance with a bunch of federal rags three

748
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 1: three times, three times in fifteen years is not semi annually.

749
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 1: Based on what I know, the term semi annually to

750
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:49,399
Speaker 1: semi decade. So yeah, UM based on responses for over

751
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 1: thirty public records requests UM from from three different agencies

752
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 1: looking looking at Washington State Patrol and more than like

753
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 1: fifty interviews with current and formal law enforcement officials and

754
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 1: people with experience in interacting with Washington State Patrol UM

755
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,839
Speaker 1: and also data from millions of traffic stops that all

756
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 1: this was looked at in total, examined about eight million

757
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 1: traffic stops from two US and nine to US in fifteen.

758
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 1: This is what Investigate West was doing UM, which was

759
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:15,759
Speaker 1: which was the most recent data available, and the analysis

760
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 1: found that UH it focused on twenty incidents of what

761
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 1: researchers called like high discretion searches. That's when troopers had

762
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 1: the most like personal leeway to decide whether or not

763
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,240
Speaker 1: to pull over and search a vehicle. UM. Black drivers

764
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 1: were twice as likely to be searched as white drivers,

765
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 1: and Latino specific calendars were eight percent more likely to

766
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 1: be searched. Of of these incidents where officers had discretion

767
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:39,799
Speaker 1: and like they could choose whether or not to pull

768
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 1: someone over. Um, so it wasn't like it wasn't like

769
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,359
Speaker 1: they were like obviously speeding or doing you know, like

770
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:48,320
Speaker 1: like you know, like like regular like actually observable traffic violations.

771
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:50,880
Speaker 1: This is when like people could choose when they investigate.

772
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 1: West thing got published, they contact Washington State Patrol and

773
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 1: the spokesperson said that, uh, here's here's here's the quote

774
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 1: that Ray Sprace was not the only factor when troopers

775
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:05,800
Speaker 1: decided whom to search, and that's partially because blacks, Native

776
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:08,239
Speaker 1: Americans and Latinos are more more more likely to be

777
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:12,440
Speaker 1: searched regardless of how much discretion troopers have, which that

778
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,359
Speaker 1: doesn't really make very much sense. Um, I don't know

779
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 1: what person, I don't know. What they mean is they're

780
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 1: more likely to be searching regardless what the who was

781
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 1: that bad checking the copy? Which is weird because later

782
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 1: on the spokesperson said that, um, we're same guy, we're

783
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 1: in the Basically we're agrees that we're in a basic

784
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 1: agreement that minorities are searched at higher rates, but we

785
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 1: find less contraband so um. And he also he also

786
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:52,719
Speaker 1: noted that complaints about like a racial bias encounted for

787
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 1: little more than ten percent of all complaints of the

788
00:43:56,120 --> 00:44:01,319
Speaker 1: state patrol filed last year. So I guess he thinks

789
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 1: that's a good He thinks that's a good stat Yeah, yeah, um.

790
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:11,279
Speaker 1: And another kind of not great thing is that uh.

791
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:13,919
Speaker 1: The analysis found that not only are Native Americans more

792
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 1: likely to be searched, but all of the most of

793
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:20,879
Speaker 1: those searches happen always that like the edges of reservations UM.

794
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:23,880
Speaker 1: The analysis found that the two highest concentration of searches

795
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:26,759
Speaker 1: in Native Americans by state troopers are on the US

796
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 1: nineties seven, where it encounters um a reservation at ol

797
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 1: Mac about about a mile from its intersection at a

798
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 1: state wrote one fifty five, which is and more than

799
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:41,840
Speaker 1: one thirty miles south of of the same when the

800
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 1: same highway enters another reservation. So nearly one third of

801
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:49,839
Speaker 1: high discretions of high discretion searches. So when troopers can

802
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 1: decide whether or not to pull someone over like like

803
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,359
Speaker 1: they they they have more discretion whether they can. So

804
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:58,279
Speaker 1: one third of those happened on these two stretches of

805
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 1: highway right on the edges of these reservations, Like they're

806
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 1: patrolling outside these reservations to specifically do this. Um there

807
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:08,840
Speaker 1: was I saw an interview on this topic that we

808
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 1: talked that talked to Native Americans in this area and

809
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 1: they're like, yeah, every time we leave the reservation, we

810
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:15,839
Speaker 1: get pulled over. But then we watched tons of white

811
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 1: motorists go by and no one cares, like and like

812
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 1: and they're like you're doing like they're just speeding by,

813
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. Um so yeah, that is. That is

814
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 1: the first first you know, unsurprising tidbit about Uh, some

815
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 1: an organization who started as a highway patrol is, yeah,

816
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:36,440
Speaker 1: they're gonna pull people over who are not white more often.

817
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:42,440
Speaker 1: That is that's pretty not not super shocko yeah, and

818
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 1: then makes a public statement like l o O yeah

819
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:49,279
Speaker 1: yeah that that does. That does sound a lot like

820
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 1: with the Washington State Patrol. Uh sounds like, um so

821
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:57,399
Speaker 1: we're gonna So that that was that was the first

822
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 1: obvious thing. Uh. This next her it's a little bit

823
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 1: more fun. Um so in in two thousand nine, the

824
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:08,840
Speaker 1: Washington State Patrol made made the decision to fire eight troopers,

825
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 1: which is you know, pretty pretty rare um And the

826
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 1: reason why they got fired is because they used fake

827
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:21,239
Speaker 1: diplomas to claim pay raises. Yeah, so there was there

828
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 1: was this whole scheme about getting fake diplomas to get

829
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 1: the troopers more money, like like like individual people that

830
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 1: there's this whole, this whole operation going on. It resulted

831
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 1: in the in in eight in eight people getting fired.

832
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 1: So troopers can can boost their pay about two percent

833
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 1: by earning a two a two year degree or four

834
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 1: percent with a four year degree. And there was this

835
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 1: group of of a troopers who just uh started just

836
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:53,759
Speaker 1: forging diplomas see Garrison. This is a separate conversation. But

837
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:55,880
Speaker 1: they didn't need to forge diplomas. They could have just

838
00:46:55,960 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 1: become doctors of of of of magic, like like that's

839
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:05,719
Speaker 1: what I've tried to do religious PhD. Yeah. So there's

840
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:08,839
Speaker 1: all sorts of fake diploma mills come on Washington State

841
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 1: Highway Patrol. This this is pretty funny. So so the

842
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:21,440
Speaker 1: investigation began after federal agents shut down a diploma mill

843
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 1: in the Spokane. Criminal charges were not filed, but the

844
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 1: Patrol to decide to fire these eight troopers. Yeah, so

845
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:31,840
Speaker 1: that is one of the more funny things we'll be

846
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 1: talking about today. And I think it's time for an

847
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:38,320
Speaker 1: ad break. So yeah, speaking of funny, here's these ads

848
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 1: that may or may not be the people we're talking about.

849
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:48,880
Speaker 1: Rob No unrelated, unrelated. Uh We're back, which is also unrelated. Yeah.

850
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 1: Another thing that's putting pretty common around police is that

851
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 1: the past few years, they generally don't think COVID is

852
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:59,240
Speaker 1: really real or that it is the past few years.

853
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 1: Now that Robert, we're less than a month away from two. Yeah,

854
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 1: I hate that. It's like it's it's like it's almost two.

855
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 1: Almost ten percent of your entire life has been COVID.

856
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 1: I'm not going to think about math um. So generally

857
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 1: they don't think COVID is real. And also they think

858
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 1: vaccines are the mark of Satan or something. Well obviously

859
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:28,560
Speaker 1: they are. But yeah, so in in in mid October

860
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 1: this this past October, Washington Tate Patrol announced that one

861
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty seven of its employees lost their job

862
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 1: after the state's COVID nineteen vaccine mandate deadline of October eighteen.

863
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:44,839
Speaker 1: So unlike the Portland Police Bureau who who the port

864
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 1: who port and many other cities where city officials caved

865
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:51,440
Speaker 1: to the demands of the police that vaccine mandates not

866
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:54,719
Speaker 1: be not be extended towards police, Uh, this did not

867
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:57,799
Speaker 1: happen in Washington and they actually got it enforced. So

868
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:02,600
Speaker 1: over a hundred UH patrol employees quit quit their job,

869
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 1: including a sixty four commissioned officers. It was like six

870
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:12,800
Speaker 1: sixty seven troopers, six sergeants and one captain. Um. Yeah,

871
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 1: So you know, Washington State Patrol has about two thousand

872
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:20,960
Speaker 1: personnel within like between like eight districts. Um. So losing

873
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 1: like a hundred and twenty seven of them is not

874
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:28,359
Speaker 1: a it's not an insignificant loss. Um. And it's it's

875
00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:30,960
Speaker 1: been a it's it has been been trying to hire

876
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:33,560
Speaker 1: a lot more people in the in the past. In

877
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 1: the past like a few months, because of this, they've

878
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 1: been they've been trying to do a lot more recruitment,

879
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:40,600
Speaker 1: which is why they're Um. I've heard from other people

880
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:44,000
Speaker 1: that they are putting uh advertisements out on the internet

881
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 1: to become a Washington State trooper. This is something I've

882
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:50,759
Speaker 1: I've heard from from people online when I've been doing

883
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 1: all of this uh deep deep extensive research. So yeah,

884
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 1: they are, they are, they are recruiting. Uh So, if

885
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 1: you uh want to be h Washington Patrol officer, don't don't.

886
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:07,400
Speaker 1: Actually that's a bad idea. Um, don't do that. Yeah,

887
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,160
Speaker 1: I mean us act. You want to like really funk

888
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 1: with people who live on a reservation if that's if

889
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:16,680
Speaker 1: that's your goal, it's Washington State Highway Patrol is your

890
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 1: your dream career? Or have another option for you. You

891
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:22,600
Speaker 1: could also just get COVID and die. Well, yeah, that

892
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:24,920
Speaker 1: is an option. That's an option to thing I think

893
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:28,400
Speaker 1: might be freedom is what makes this nation great. Uh

894
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 1: so I think you know of the choice. Anyway, continue Harrison.

895
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:37,919
Speaker 1: I'm gonna send a picture inside our group chat first

896
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 1: because we're gonna were gonna be talking about one one

897
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:44,600
Speaker 1: specific evil dude. Next, I'm setting a picture in the

898
00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:46,240
Speaker 1: group chat that I want you to look at first,

899
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 1: just so you get a sense of who we're talking about.

900
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 1: Oh based, okay, I'm I'm excited. Yeah all right. Oh no,

901
00:50:55,760 --> 00:51:00,439
Speaker 1: oh no, the boat I really brings it all together.

902
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 1: Oh no, you said bow tie, which does not make

903
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:11,799
Speaker 1: me optimistic. Robert no, but is wrong with it? Who? Yeah,

904
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 1: who puts a bow tie on a uniform? Like, guys,

905
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 1: I found a better quality image. Um, good god, there

906
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:21,320
Speaker 1: we go, the same image better He looks like Tucker

907
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 1: Carlson and the Starship Troopers universe when he gets drafted.

908
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 1: So this is the next guy we're talking about. Um,

909
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:31,600
Speaker 1: somehow feels like I hate crime towards the Weasley family.

910
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:35,440
Speaker 1: So yeah, it feels like a hate crime towards the

911
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 1: guy based off Tucker Carlson in Starship Troopers. So this

912
00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:43,960
Speaker 1: would be a big fan of ron Ron Weasley's family.

913
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:48,320
Speaker 1: This this is This is Sean carr Um, a former

914
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:55,400
Speaker 1: Washington State Patrol a sergeant um who resigned for reasons.

915
00:51:55,400 --> 00:52:02,280
Speaker 1: We will discuss fun. That's exciting. Yeah yeah anyway. Um.

916
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:05,400
Speaker 1: So in twos and fifteen and Associated Press investigation uncovered

917
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:08,080
Speaker 1: about a thousand officers in the United States who lost

918
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:10,720
Speaker 1: their badges over a six year period for sex crimes

919
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 1: or misconduct such as like, uh, this is this is

920
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 1: a quote here which I disagree with framing here, but

921
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:20,080
Speaker 1: this is this is a quote propositioning citizens or having

922
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:26,880
Speaker 1: consensual but prohibited on duty intercourse, which is uh, pretty bullshit.

923
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:30,040
Speaker 1: Way to frame that because basically you're it's it's police

924
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:34,120
Speaker 1: raping people. M and police officers being accused of like

925
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:38,600
Speaker 1: using their power over people to rape them is extremely common. Yeah,

926
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:40,880
Speaker 1: and it's often just like yeah, well the person said okay,

927
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:42,800
Speaker 1: And it's like, well they said okay to a person

928
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 1: with a gun in the legal power to murder anyone

929
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:48,560
Speaker 1: they want or put them into jail. Like like there's

930
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:50,719
Speaker 1: a lot of scent. Yeah, you know, I would argue

931
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:54,880
Speaker 1: you can't consent, uh to sex with a police officer

932
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:58,279
Speaker 1: who's on duty in a uniform because it's they have

933
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:00,920
Speaker 1: the power to murder anybody they want or who just

934
00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:03,120
Speaker 1: arrest you. Like, like, it's a lot of stuff. So

935
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 1: like there was a studied at least a few years

936
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:08,600
Speaker 1: ago that an analyzed data of like a five hundred

937
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:11,359
Speaker 1: and fifty arrest cases from the years of two US

938
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:13,040
Speaker 1: and five, two US and seven just this is just

939
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:17,320
Speaker 1: two years and uh and a four hundred officers employed

940
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:20,680
Speaker 1: by like three d and twenty non non federal law

941
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:25,239
Speaker 1: enforcement agencies located throughout a forty three states. Um and

942
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:29,400
Speaker 1: findings indicated that a police sexual misconduct includes a serious

943
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:32,239
Speaker 1: forms of sex with related crimes and the victims of

944
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 1: sex related crimes by police are typically younger than eighteen

945
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:40,880
Speaker 1: years old. UM, so it's it happens a lot with miners.

946
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:44,359
Speaker 1: So there's a lot like like more like a ridiculously

947
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:46,719
Speaker 1: common like if you if you google is which I

948
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:49,960
Speaker 1: honestly don't recommend, but you can find like dozens of

949
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 1: stories coming out like basically every like not you'll find

950
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:57,560
Speaker 1: at least one new story every month of a kid

951
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 1: getting raped by police. It happened pretty commonly. So over

952
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:04,879
Speaker 1: the past ten years in the Washington State Patrol, they've

953
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:09,000
Speaker 1: investigated and confirmed four cases of what they call sex

954
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 1: on duty um according to the agency. And this is

955
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:19,120
Speaker 1: including including Shawn Carr now Sean Car's cases particularly sensitive

956
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 1: for the agency because he was married to the uh

957
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:27,759
Speaker 1: the daughter of the Washington State Patrol chief UM and

958
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:31,080
Speaker 1: and Shaun Carr was also himself a sergeant, so he

959
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:34,120
Speaker 1: was connected to like the big leagues at the Washington

960
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:38,240
Speaker 1: State Patrol. So Car met a civilian woman who also

961
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:40,319
Speaker 1: works at Washington State Patrol but as like you know,

962
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:42,799
Speaker 1: like has like an office job, so they isn't isn't

963
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:45,920
Speaker 1: a trooper. Um. They met in twelve and struck up

964
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:49,319
Speaker 1: an online friendship, and a few months later they both

965
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:52,400
Speaker 1: of them told investigators that the relationship did turn sexual.

966
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 1: Um Car admitted to six sexual encounters for the next

967
00:54:56,719 --> 00:54:58,759
Speaker 1: like five years with the woman, of five of which

968
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:00,799
Speaker 1: happened when he was on duty and like on state

969
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:04,319
Speaker 1: property or driving a vehicle or while in uniform. UM

970
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:06,719
Speaker 1: but the woman recalled as many as as twenty and

971
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:08,200
Speaker 1: all but one of them were when he was on

972
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:11,560
Speaker 1: duty and well. And so the woman said that most

973
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:14,719
Speaker 1: of their encounters were were what she would describe as consensual,

974
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:20,160
Speaker 1: but she described three incidents where Car did uh pushed

975
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:23,960
Speaker 1: the boundary and she she she has described being raped

976
00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 1: by him multiple times. UM, so there was there was

977
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 1: an incident. I think the first one happened in the

978
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 1: beginning of UH with inside his patrol car in a

979
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 1: church parking lot. UH. The woman had recently started dating

980
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:42,359
Speaker 1: another man, and Carr wanted to know who it was.

981
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:46,399
Speaker 1: When she wouldn't say so, he uh he grabbed her

982
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:49,279
Speaker 1: arm hard enough to leave bruises, and the woman said

983
00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:51,520
Speaker 1: that Car made her pick from two options, give up

984
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:54,200
Speaker 1: the name of the man or give Car oral sex.

985
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:59,440
Speaker 1: Um Car later told investigators that he said this in

986
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:03,920
Speaker 1: a quote joking context. Oh that's you know, I was thinking,

987
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:07,279
Speaker 1: because that's almost exactly my my tight five for my

988
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:11,239
Speaker 1: stand up set. I mean, some some comedians for some

989
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:14,600
Speaker 1: reason do like making jokes like that and not not

990
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:17,160
Speaker 1: not great usually not great to normalize that kind of thing.

991
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:20,759
Speaker 1: So um. The woman said that she did like like

992
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:24,719
Speaker 1: s his his like commands and she's which she said,

993
00:56:24,719 --> 00:56:27,799
Speaker 1: we're like very much not done consent. Yeah, and she

994
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:30,279
Speaker 1: said it's very much not consensual. Um. She she told

995
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:33,560
Speaker 1: investigators that he raped me on the side of the road. Um.

996
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:35,960
Speaker 1: And if and if it was anyone else besides car,

997
00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:38,239
Speaker 1: she she she she said she would have called nine

998
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:43,640
Speaker 1: one one. Um. So the second time happened when a

999
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:45,920
Speaker 1: car backed her into a corner of a highway away

1000
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:48,520
Speaker 1: station and forced her to have sex with him. Um.

1001
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:52,160
Speaker 1: She called it a coerced Car said that consent was mutual.

1002
00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:57,480
Speaker 1: So despite the sexual assaults, uh, and and and like

1003
00:56:57,560 --> 00:56:59,520
Speaker 1: and you know and and like assaults you know, like

1004
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:01,920
Speaker 1: you know, crapping someone's army hard to believe a bruise,

1005
00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:04,480
Speaker 1: she said. The woman said she kept in touch with

1006
00:57:04,560 --> 00:57:06,920
Speaker 1: Car because she was going through a difficult time in

1007
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:11,400
Speaker 1: her life and she needed somebody to talk to. Complicated,

1008
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:14,200
Speaker 1: that's yeah, that this is even like people who are

1009
00:57:14,239 --> 00:57:18,000
Speaker 1: imbutive can also be emotionally supportive sometimes, Like that's one

1010
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:20,920
Speaker 1: of the things about abuse. That's such a real, real motherfucker.

1011
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:24,040
Speaker 1: It's not simple. So yeah, Car Car may not have

1012
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:26,760
Speaker 1: gotten in trouble had the woman not confided in another

1013
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:30,440
Speaker 1: patrol employee after she left her job. UM. Then the

1014
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:34,400
Speaker 1: other other patrol employee mentioned the situation to someone higher up,

1015
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:37,960
Speaker 1: triggering an investigation. UM. And then in twenty nineteen, the

1016
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:41,440
Speaker 1: woman formally reported Car to uh TO to like the

1017
00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:45,120
Speaker 1: patrol Office of Professional Standards. So records store that the

1018
00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:48,240
Speaker 1: patrol of pretty quickly confiscated cars, badge, and gun and

1019
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:51,280
Speaker 1: placed him on home assignment, where he remained until he

1020
00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:56,160
Speaker 1: and he resigned voluntarily. UM. The patrol gave gave the

1021
00:57:56,200 --> 00:57:58,680
Speaker 1: case to the Sheriff's office to investigate because of the

1022
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:03,720
Speaker 1: criminal nature of the allegations. So Car's personal file includes

1023
00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:06,880
Speaker 1: other on job violations, including using a taser on a

1024
00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:10,960
Speaker 1: drunk driving suspect. He was handcuffed, and records show that

1025
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:16,200
Speaker 1: in February, Car was accused of frequenting a coffee stand

1026
00:58:16,560 --> 00:58:20,000
Speaker 1: and making unwanted advances on an employee by waiting near

1027
00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:23,560
Speaker 1: her car until her shift ended and making derogatory comments

1028
00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:28,960
Speaker 1: about her boyfriend. UM. So she was also stalking this barista,

1029
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:33,600
Speaker 1: is what it sounds like. Um? Yeah, yeah, that's that

1030
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:39,640
Speaker 1: is what that sounds like. Terrifying. So yeah, so car

1031
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:45,640
Speaker 1: after the woman told investigators that she was raped after UM,

1032
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:49,600
Speaker 1: the the county sheriffes recommended hard to be filed. But

1033
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:53,320
Speaker 1: she wasn't willing to. Um. She wasn't willing to testify.

1034
00:58:53,440 --> 00:58:54,800
Speaker 1: She did not want to. She did not want to

1035
00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:58,000
Speaker 1: do that. Um. But but she she didn't tell prosecutors

1036
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:01,040
Speaker 1: that she did have one wish that that car again,

1037
00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:03,800
Speaker 1: the son in law of the state patrol chief be

1038
00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:07,600
Speaker 1: be not not allowed to police again. UM. Yeah, that's

1039
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:11,600
Speaker 1: a pretty reasonable request. Car of obviously denied all the

1040
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:16,160
Speaker 1: accusations of non consensual sex and assault, but you know,

1041
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:20,600
Speaker 1: it did admit to a to a consensual sexual relationship

1042
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:23,440
Speaker 1: on duty um, as well as other you know, like

1043
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:31,400
Speaker 1: patrol regulation violations. UM. He he resigned in July before

1044
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:34,640
Speaker 1: the patrol could decide whether or not to fire him. Um.

1045
00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:36,920
Speaker 1: And then the state went about trying to strip him

1046
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:39,720
Speaker 1: of his law enforcement cert of occasion requirement to carry

1047
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:42,440
Speaker 1: a gun and badge and be hired as law enforcement

1048
00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:47,000
Speaker 1: in Washington. Getting de certified forms conduct by the Criminal

1049
00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:51,240
Speaker 1: Justice Training Center in Washington is very hard. Very few

1050
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:57,160
Speaker 1: people have actually been decertified. Yeah, And to to be certified,

1051
00:59:57,200 --> 00:59:59,360
Speaker 1: the panel must be a panel must be convinced that

1052
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:04,400
Speaker 1: on duty behavior rose to the level of official misconduct

1053
01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:08,520
Speaker 1: and constituted a crime committed under the color of authority

1054
01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:11,920
Speaker 1: as a peace officer. That's the that's the color of

1055
01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:17,520
Speaker 1: authorities an interesting way to phrase that. Cars attorneys argued

1056
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:19,640
Speaker 1: that the state failed to make to meet this high

1057
01:00:19,640 --> 01:00:24,600
Speaker 1: bar and there was quote no legal basis to decertified car. Meanwhile,

1058
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:27,960
Speaker 1: the c j a t S the Criminal Justice Training

1059
01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:31,760
Speaker 1: Center alleged his behavior did constitute official misconduct and failure

1060
01:00:31,880 --> 01:00:36,040
Speaker 1: of duty, but without actually they didn't actually include the

1061
01:00:36,080 --> 01:00:40,440
Speaker 1: sexual assault allegations. Instead, it contended that he used state

1062
01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:43,680
Speaker 1: resources for his own benefit or neglected to do his

1063
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:47,600
Speaker 1: duties when he was engaged in sexual activity on duty,

1064
01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:51,440
Speaker 1: So they didn't actually include sexual assault or anything in this.

1065
01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:55,320
Speaker 1: They just said you were basically like you were because

1066
01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:58,840
Speaker 1: you were doing because you were having like sexual activity

1067
01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:01,040
Speaker 1: on duty. You weren't doing your job and that's the

1068
01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:04,520
Speaker 1: reason that we want to decertify you. Um. So the

1069
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:07,360
Speaker 1: date of Washington has about eleven thousand certified officers at

1070
01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:10,200
Speaker 1: any given time UM and since to us in three

1071
01:01:10,520 --> 01:01:14,680
Speaker 1: they've decertified like two hundred and thirty and at least

1072
01:01:14,680 --> 01:01:16,920
Speaker 1: four of them for on duty sex and one of

1073
01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:21,680
Speaker 1: those cases was overturned on appeal um. But in one

1074
01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:25,040
Speaker 1: around mid May, the c j TC in its final

1075
01:01:25,160 --> 01:01:29,760
Speaker 1: order said that Cars constituted UH crimes of of failure

1076
01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:33,760
Speaker 1: of duty and official misconduct by, among other things, quote,

1077
01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:37,440
Speaker 1: intentionally choosing to pursue his own sexual gratification rather than

1078
01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:40,320
Speaker 1: using his on duty time to perform his lawful responsibilities

1079
01:01:40,360 --> 01:01:43,920
Speaker 1: as a peace officer. So he he did get decertified,

1080
01:01:43,960 --> 01:01:49,800
Speaker 1: but again not actually discussing the actual like assaults and rapes. Um. Yeah.

1081
01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:56,840
Speaker 1: So the the the sheriff County Prosecutor's office designed declined

1082
01:01:56,880 --> 01:01:59,520
Speaker 1: to pursue charges on the case last year when the

1083
01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:04,320
Speaker 1: woman was willing to testify, but the deputy prosecuting attorney

1084
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:08,040
Speaker 1: UM did say that she she believed they just happened,

1085
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:10,320
Speaker 1: like like she she believes this that the stuff happened,

1086
01:02:10,600 --> 01:02:12,600
Speaker 1: but because of the lack of evidence due to time

1087
01:02:13,080 --> 01:02:16,320
Speaker 1: passing and the woman not wanting to testify. There it's

1088
01:02:16,360 --> 01:02:19,040
Speaker 1: hard to prove guilt in court, so they're not going

1089
01:02:19,080 --> 01:02:24,440
Speaker 1: to pursue these charges at the moment. Yeah. So that

1090
01:02:24,440 --> 01:02:26,840
Speaker 1: that is UH, that is Shawn car So that yeah,

1091
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:30,440
Speaker 1: he is not not not allowed to police as of

1092
01:02:32,320 --> 01:02:35,480
Speaker 1: That is a cursory glance at stuff in the Washington

1093
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:37,200
Speaker 1: State Patrol. Oh, I guess one of the one other

1094
01:02:37,240 --> 01:02:40,600
Speaker 1: thing I found out today is that so Washington State

1095
01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:46,440
Speaker 1: Patrol has a has a psychologist for UM recruitings. Basically

1096
01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:48,640
Speaker 1: for if you want to join the patrol, you have

1097
01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:52,280
Speaker 1: to go like through like a psychological screening. Sure, that

1098
01:02:52,360 --> 01:02:56,600
Speaker 1: makes sense. And he just just resigned because he was

1099
01:02:56,640 --> 01:02:59,520
Speaker 1: he was he was probably going to get fired. Um.

1100
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:03,400
Speaker 1: This is after Stale Times and Public Radio Northwest News

1101
01:03:03,480 --> 01:03:10,560
Speaker 1: Network UH published a peace show showing that since UH

1102
01:03:10,720 --> 01:03:16,400
Speaker 1: the psychological screenings rejected where is it? UH rejected of

1103
01:03:16,440 --> 01:03:20,840
Speaker 1: white candidates over the past four years. Um, but the

1104
01:03:20,920 --> 01:03:26,040
Speaker 1: psychologists that they hired h rejected of black candidates, of

1105
01:03:26,080 --> 01:03:29,680
Speaker 1: Hispanic candidates, and forty one percent of Asian candidates. So again,

1106
01:03:29,720 --> 01:03:33,320
Speaker 1: I'm not pro people being police in general, but there

1107
01:03:33,440 --> 01:03:37,080
Speaker 1: is a clear disparity on who they are wanting to

1108
01:03:37,200 --> 01:03:40,040
Speaker 1: become police, like who like who are they They're letting

1109
01:03:40,040 --> 01:03:43,000
Speaker 1: in a lot more white candidates than they are letting

1110
01:03:43,240 --> 01:03:48,120
Speaker 1: in candidates of color. Um so this this uh, this

1111
01:03:48,240 --> 01:03:50,880
Speaker 1: psychologist screener is is no longer on the job as

1112
01:03:50,920 --> 01:03:55,000
Speaker 1: of like a few days ago. Um. Yeah, so just

1113
01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:59,080
Speaker 1: another another level of stuff because yeah, you know, there's

1114
01:03:59,560 --> 01:04:02,919
Speaker 1: they want there to be more white officers than anything else.

1115
01:04:03,280 --> 01:04:07,400
Speaker 1: Um so yeah, that is that is the Washington State Patrol.

1116
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:08,720
Speaker 1: I guess the one other thing I want to do

1117
01:04:08,960 --> 01:04:11,800
Speaker 1: is I'm gonna again send in the group chat. Their

1118
01:04:11,960 --> 01:04:19,360
Speaker 1: their current logo, their current logo current you're smirking. I

1119
01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:22,480
Speaker 1: hate it when you do this. I'm afraid. I don't know,

1120
01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:26,280
Speaker 1: soph Maybe it'll be fine. It's actually it's it's it's

1121
01:04:26,320 --> 01:04:30,920
Speaker 1: kind of fun. That's their logo. That is their current logo.

1122
01:04:32,080 --> 01:04:38,320
Speaker 1: They design it in like paint, Yes, they probably they

1123
01:04:38,360 --> 01:04:42,000
Speaker 1: probably did design it in MS paint. Oh man, Yeah,

1124
01:04:42,040 --> 01:04:45,080
Speaker 1: that that looks like it belongs in an angel Fire website.

1125
01:04:45,120 --> 01:04:47,240
Speaker 1: Gar So do you know what angel Fire was not?

1126
01:04:47,920 --> 01:04:52,120
Speaker 1: Oh my god, you fucking teenagers. Um yeah, that looks

1127
01:04:52,200 --> 01:04:54,840
Speaker 1: like it belongs in an angel I will I will

1128
01:04:54,920 --> 01:04:57,200
Speaker 1: let all of the other people who feel very old

1129
01:04:57,320 --> 01:04:59,520
Speaker 1: right now know that it looks like something you'd see

1130
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:03,480
Speaker 1: in an angel Fire website. Like shittlely animated blinking across

1131
01:05:03,520 --> 01:05:06,520
Speaker 1: the screen. No, like it looks like something from a

1132
01:05:06,640 --> 01:05:10,680
Speaker 1: ninety nineties website. All right, well, now I'm both angry

1133
01:05:10,680 --> 01:05:13,000
Speaker 1: about the police and I feel a thousand years old.

1134
01:05:13,080 --> 01:05:16,240
Speaker 1: So this is good? What a good? What a good?

1135
01:05:16,480 --> 01:05:19,680
Speaker 1: What a good feeling? Well that that wraps that. That

1136
01:05:19,680 --> 01:05:23,360
Speaker 1: wraps it up for today. Um and hey again, I

1137
01:05:23,920 --> 01:05:25,800
Speaker 1: have heard that they are recruiting and they should have

1138
01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:30,040
Speaker 1: a new psychological screener soon. So great, there we go.

1139
01:05:30,480 --> 01:05:34,680
Speaker 1: I'm imagining the primary psychological screening is you're white, right,

1140
01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:38,440
Speaker 1: that's that's that is what it used to be. I mean,

1141
01:05:38,480 --> 01:05:41,800
Speaker 1: I'm imagining that's what it's going to be. Still probably

1142
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:46,439
Speaker 1: maybe not. All right, Well, this has been a great time.

1143
01:05:46,600 --> 01:05:52,080
Speaker 1: I'm sure everybody's feeling good. Uh, goodbye, get out of

1144
01:05:52,120 --> 01:06:01,520
Speaker 1: my house. A chain of teens from foster care is

1145
01:06:01,520 --> 01:06:03,880
Speaker 1: a topic not enough people know about, and we're here

1146
01:06:03,920 --> 01:06:06,439
Speaker 1: to change that. I'm April Denuity, host of the new

1147
01:06:06,480 --> 01:06:10,800
Speaker 1: podcast Navigating Adoption, presented by adopt us Kids. Each episode

1148
01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:14,160
Speaker 1: brings you compelling, real life adoption stories told by the

1149
01:06:14,200 --> 01:06:17,680
Speaker 1: families that lived them, with commentary from experts. Visit adopt

1150
01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:21,640
Speaker 1: us Kids dot org, slash podcast, or subscribe to Navigating Adoption,

1151
01:06:21,720 --> 01:06:24,520
Speaker 1: presented by adopt us Kids, brought to you by the U.

1152
01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:27,240
Speaker 1: S Department of Health and Human Services, Administration for Children

1153
01:06:27,240 --> 01:06:32,160
Speaker 1: and Families, and the Council. Here's to the great American settlers.

1154
01:06:32,880 --> 01:06:36,960
Speaker 1: The millions of you has settled for unsatisfying jobs because

1155
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:40,120
Speaker 1: they pay the bills, and you just kind of fell

1156
01:06:40,160 --> 01:06:44,680
Speaker 1: into it, and you know, it's like totally fine, just

1157
01:06:44,800 --> 01:06:48,400
Speaker 1: another few decades or so and then you can enjoy yourself.

1158
01:06:49,160 --> 01:06:52,240
Speaker 1: Of course, there is something else you could do. If

1159
01:06:52,280 --> 01:06:55,720
Speaker 1: you've got something to say. You could, I don't know,

1160
01:06:56,000 --> 01:07:00,439
Speaker 1: startup podcast with speaker from my heart and east your

1161
01:07:00,480 --> 01:07:04,640
Speaker 1: creative freedom and spend all day researching and talking about

1162
01:07:04,720 --> 01:07:08,320
Speaker 1: stuff you love and maybe even earn enough money to

1163
01:07:08,440 --> 01:07:12,160
Speaker 1: one day tell your irritating boss as you quit and

1164
01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:17,400
Speaker 1: walk off into the sunset. Hey, I'm no settler. I'm

1165
01:07:17,440 --> 01:07:23,800
Speaker 1: an explorer spreaker dot com. That's spr e a k

1166
01:07:24,080 --> 01:07:32,600
Speaker 1: E R hustle on over today. I'm Colleen with join

1167
01:07:32,720 --> 01:07:35,520
Speaker 1: me the host of Eating Wall Broke podcast, while I

1168
01:07:35,560 --> 01:07:39,320
Speaker 1: eat a meal created by self made entrepreneurs, influencers and

1169
01:07:39,480 --> 01:07:42,040
Speaker 1: celebrities over a meal they once ate when they were broke.

1170
01:07:42,240 --> 01:07:45,480
Speaker 1: Today I have the lovely aj Crimson, the official Princess

1171
01:07:45,560 --> 01:07:49,800
Speaker 1: of comfin Asia. Kiddingk and Asia. This is the professor.

1172
01:07:49,920 --> 01:07:52,640
Speaker 1: We're here on Eating Wall Broken. Today, I'm gonna break

1173
01:07:52,640 --> 01:07:55,320
Speaker 1: down my meal that got me through the time when

1174
01:07:55,320 --> 01:07:57,880
Speaker 1: I was broken. Listen to Eating Wall Broke on the

1175
01:07:57,960 --> 01:08:00,840
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, on apple Pie podcast or wherever

1176
01:08:00,880 --> 01:08:11,480
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Welcome to the Hudcast. This is

1177
01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:15,280
Speaker 1: a crypto podcast where we talk about the best n

1178
01:08:15,320 --> 01:08:19,160
Speaker 1: f T investments and how you can get rich. To bro,

1179
01:08:19,439 --> 01:08:22,559
Speaker 1: if you just accept the wave of the future and

1180
01:08:22,840 --> 01:08:27,000
Speaker 1: decentralize your finance and invest in a bank that can

1181
01:08:27,040 --> 01:08:30,240
Speaker 1: take all of your money overnight and disappear because it

1182
01:08:30,280 --> 01:08:33,320
Speaker 1: was really just being run by a guy in Macedonia

1183
01:08:33,680 --> 01:08:36,400
Speaker 1: and he it was just a rugpole the entire time,

1184
01:08:36,520 --> 01:08:39,040
Speaker 1: and you lose your life savings and you have no

1185
01:08:39,160 --> 01:08:43,160
Speaker 1: recourse and that's the fucking future of investments. Bro. Hey, bro,

1186
01:08:43,360 --> 01:08:49,160
Speaker 1: you're fired. Yeah, that's fair. This is it could happen

1187
01:08:49,200 --> 01:08:52,839
Speaker 1: here podcast about how things are bad sometimes a podcast

1188
01:08:52,880 --> 01:08:55,160
Speaker 1: about how to make them less bad. Today we're talking

1189
01:08:55,240 --> 01:08:57,960
Speaker 1: about the former how things are bad, and we're talking

1190
01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:03,920
Speaker 1: about financialization, um, and specifically the financialization of like human

1191
01:09:03,960 --> 01:09:07,479
Speaker 1: beings and the endeavor to create art. Uh and so

1192
01:09:08,120 --> 01:09:11,840
Speaker 1: art art is a broad broad term. I mean, I

1193
01:09:11,920 --> 01:09:15,240
Speaker 1: said the endeavor to I'm sure they all want to

1194
01:09:15,320 --> 01:09:17,720
Speaker 1: be creating art. Well, this won't make any sense to

1195
01:09:17,760 --> 01:09:19,719
Speaker 1: people yet, so I'm gonna I'm gonna give a brief overview.

1196
01:09:19,880 --> 01:09:22,080
Speaker 1: There's an article in the Atlantic that dropped on November

1197
01:09:22,120 --> 01:09:25,760
Speaker 1: twenty nine called what Happens when You're the Investment. It's

1198
01:09:25,760 --> 01:09:30,920
Speaker 1: by Rex Wouldbury Um, who I hate um. So as

1199
01:09:30,920 --> 01:09:34,760
Speaker 1: a note, okay, let let me just get the the

1200
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:37,680
Speaker 1: the nut of the article is, and that there's been

1201
01:09:37,680 --> 01:09:40,479
Speaker 1: a couple of other articles on this guy. Um. His

1202
01:09:40,640 --> 01:09:45,800
Speaker 1: name is Alex mass mesh Um and he is a

1203
01:09:45,840 --> 01:09:50,000
Speaker 1: French kid, I think, who decided to tokenize himself. And

1204
01:09:50,040 --> 01:09:53,559
Speaker 1: what that means is so like you've got the etherory

1205
01:09:53,600 --> 01:09:58,599
Speaker 1: and blockchain right. He basically he's he's putting he's carving

1206
01:09:58,720 --> 01:10:02,639
Speaker 1: up aspects of his like potential future earnings, and he's

1207
01:10:02,680 --> 01:10:06,120
Speaker 1: putting those on the Ethereum blockchain as like tokens that

1208
01:10:06,160 --> 01:10:09,639
Speaker 1: people can buy. And the idea is that this kid

1209
01:10:09,720 --> 01:10:12,080
Speaker 1: had wanted to like start a business and be an entrepreneur,

1210
01:10:12,200 --> 01:10:14,960
Speaker 1: but he didn't have any money. So using like on

1211
01:10:15,000 --> 01:10:19,000
Speaker 1: the ether blockchain, he turned himself into tokens basically like

1212
01:10:19,080 --> 01:10:23,120
Speaker 1: his potential future earnings and his time. And basically people

1213
01:10:23,120 --> 01:10:27,000
Speaker 1: are able to buy up coins effectively, I mean not coins,

1214
01:10:27,040 --> 01:10:30,880
Speaker 1: but tokens shares. Yeah, yeah, dollar sign Alex is like

1215
01:10:30,960 --> 01:10:33,280
Speaker 1: the name of the token, which basically shares they're buying.

1216
01:10:33,479 --> 01:10:37,360
Speaker 1: He's turned himself essentially into a publicly traded company kind

1217
01:10:37,400 --> 01:10:41,800
Speaker 1: of um. And holders of his coins are like, he's

1218
01:10:41,840 --> 01:10:44,320
Speaker 1: splitting up fifteen percent of his income for the next

1219
01:10:44,479 --> 01:10:48,679
Speaker 1: three years basically among people who like hold his coins.

1220
01:10:48,760 --> 01:10:51,559
Speaker 1: And he raised like twenty grand this way. Um. And

1221
01:10:51,640 --> 01:10:54,200
Speaker 1: it's not just like it's not just his future earnings

1222
01:10:54,200 --> 01:10:56,280
Speaker 1: that are being kind of tokenized. You can also use

1223
01:10:56,360 --> 01:10:58,880
Speaker 1: tokens to like buy retweets from him, or one on

1224
01:10:58,880 --> 01:11:02,080
Speaker 1: one conversations or and here's a line, I love an

1225
01:11:02,160 --> 01:11:05,880
Speaker 1: introduction to someone in his network. And and it's the

1226
01:11:06,320 --> 01:11:08,320
Speaker 1: overall idea because there's you can find some other good

1227
01:11:08,360 --> 01:11:11,680
Speaker 1: articles good as an interesting word to use. You can

1228
01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:16,160
Speaker 1: find other interesting, fascinating articles about this this idea, which

1229
01:11:16,200 --> 01:11:22,320
Speaker 1: is like human beings tokenizing their future earning potential um

1230
01:11:22,360 --> 01:11:28,080
Speaker 1: in order to raise money um and and it's uh

1231
01:11:28,240 --> 01:11:30,360
Speaker 1: the way this is usually sold as a good thing.

1232
01:11:30,360 --> 01:11:32,120
Speaker 1: In fact, I should probably just read a quote from

1233
01:11:32,120 --> 01:11:34,200
Speaker 1: this Atlantic article to give you an idea of how

1234
01:11:34,920 --> 01:11:38,160
Speaker 1: uh mass measure is, or of how um um the

1235
01:11:38,240 --> 01:11:42,280
Speaker 1: art the author of the article, Rex good Wouldbury, is

1236
01:11:42,280 --> 01:11:45,559
Speaker 1: is trying to sell this ship. We all have the

1237
01:11:45,680 --> 01:11:48,280
Speaker 1: slightly annoying friend who insists that she knew about so

1238
01:11:48,320 --> 01:11:50,320
Speaker 1: and so before they were even famous. When it comes

1239
01:11:50,360 --> 01:11:52,400
Speaker 1: to Taylor Swift, I'm that friend, and I'm more than

1240
01:11:52,439 --> 01:11:54,600
Speaker 1: slightly annoying about it. I was a Taylor fan in

1241
01:11:54,640 --> 01:11:57,479
Speaker 1: her pre fearless full on country days, years before Conway

1242
01:11:57,520 --> 01:11:59,559
Speaker 1: interrupted her on stage at the v m AS. But

1243
01:11:59,600 --> 01:12:03,040
Speaker 1: in our constructive fandom, I'm treated no differently than a

1244
01:12:03,040 --> 01:12:05,639
Speaker 1: fan who discovered Swift on SNL a few weeks back.

1245
01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:08,120
Speaker 1: This would be different, though. If Taylor had done what

1246
01:12:08,160 --> 01:12:10,760
Speaker 1: mass Measure did and turned herself into an investment, she

1247
01:12:10,800 --> 01:12:14,120
Speaker 1: could have issued a social token, whereas non fungible tokens

1248
01:12:14,240 --> 01:12:15,920
Speaker 1: or n f t s are so called because of

1249
01:12:15,920 --> 01:12:19,040
Speaker 1: the uniqueness of a digital asset. Social tokens are fungible.

1250
01:12:19,080 --> 01:12:21,880
Speaker 1: In other words, each Alex token is interchangeable with every

1251
01:12:21,880 --> 01:12:23,880
Speaker 1: other Alex token, just like a dollar bill can be

1252
01:12:23,880 --> 01:12:26,880
Speaker 1: traded for any other dollar bill. Say Taylor issued had

1253
01:12:26,880 --> 01:12:30,040
Speaker 1: issued her own token, Let's call it a dollar signs swift,

1254
01:12:30,280 --> 01:12:32,559
Speaker 1: and say she had sold dollar signed swift to her

1255
01:12:32,560 --> 01:12:36,280
Speaker 1: biggest fans. Yeah, say I was one such fan. Over time,

1256
01:12:36,360 --> 01:12:39,479
Speaker 1: as Taylor's popularity grew, the value of the Swift token

1257
01:12:39,520 --> 01:12:42,000
Speaker 1: would have appreciated. As an early believer, I would have

1258
01:12:42,000 --> 01:12:44,600
Speaker 1: shared in the financial upside of her growing fame. The

1259
01:12:44,600 --> 01:12:46,439
Speaker 1: Swift token I had brought for a hundred dollars in

1260
01:12:46,479 --> 01:12:49,040
Speaker 1: two thousand seven might be worth a hundred thousand dollars today.

1261
01:12:49,600 --> 01:12:52,280
Speaker 1: The Taylor Swift mini economy would serve both the singer

1262
01:12:52,320 --> 01:12:54,639
Speaker 1: and early fans like me. As an artist, Taylor could

1263
01:12:54,680 --> 01:12:57,960
Speaker 1: have funded her work by selling dollar signs or Swift tokens.

1264
01:12:57,960 --> 01:12:59,640
Speaker 1: She might not have needed to sell ownership of her

1265
01:12:59,680 --> 01:13:01,640
Speaker 1: master and she might not have been forced to re

1266
01:13:01,760 --> 01:13:04,000
Speaker 1: record her albums to take back control over her art.

1267
01:13:04,360 --> 01:13:06,280
Speaker 1: Taylor's fans, for their part, would have been rewarded for

1268
01:13:06,280 --> 01:13:09,360
Speaker 1: a decade of patronage. We're all evangelists for our favorite artists,

1269
01:13:09,560 --> 01:13:12,080
Speaker 1: yet we capture little of the value that we helped create.

1270
01:13:12,640 --> 01:13:16,720
Speaker 1: And then there's a lot that like I find unsettling. There.

1271
01:13:16,760 --> 01:13:19,600
Speaker 1: One of them is the idea that like, yeah, the

1272
01:13:19,600 --> 01:13:21,360
Speaker 1: fact that I was a fan of someone earlier means

1273
01:13:21,400 --> 01:13:23,280
Speaker 1: I should get some sort of reward for it, Like

1274
01:13:23,320 --> 01:13:25,799
Speaker 1: I should be treated differently because I liked it earlier,

1275
01:13:25,800 --> 01:13:28,599
Speaker 1: which you might recognize like the thing that everybody has

1276
01:13:28,640 --> 01:13:31,880
Speaker 1: been shipping on for like fandoms for years now, like

1277
01:13:31,920 --> 01:13:34,160
Speaker 1: it's been a it's been a huge thing, where like, yeah,

1278
01:13:34,200 --> 01:13:36,080
Speaker 1: you're being an asshole if you're if you're talking about

1279
01:13:36,080 --> 01:13:38,479
Speaker 1: like if you think you have some additional ownership of

1280
01:13:38,520 --> 01:13:41,080
Speaker 1: Star Wars because you watched it ten years before the

1281
01:13:41,120 --> 01:13:43,160
Speaker 1: fans today and so you like different stuff in it,

1282
01:13:43,240 --> 01:13:46,840
Speaker 1: Like that's we all recognize that as like toxic um.

1283
01:13:46,880 --> 01:13:49,680
Speaker 1: But the the whole argument of this article is that like, no,

1284
01:13:49,800 --> 01:13:52,880
Speaker 1: this is how the entire future of creativity should work.

1285
01:13:53,160 --> 01:13:56,639
Speaker 1: We find unsettling. And it also it also ties into

1286
01:13:56,720 --> 01:14:02,120
Speaker 1: like a really concerning development in paras social relationships of

1287
01:14:02,160 --> 01:14:06,520
Speaker 1: like to like invest in someone to buy a conversation

1288
01:14:06,560 --> 01:14:10,479
Speaker 1: with them in like this really weird way um and

1289
01:14:10,560 --> 01:14:12,639
Speaker 1: the fact that young artists are going to be pressured

1290
01:14:12,680 --> 01:14:16,160
Speaker 1: into this kind of thing is really scary. Yeah, because

1291
01:14:16,200 --> 01:14:18,639
Speaker 1: there's like one of the things mass Measure did as

1292
01:14:18,720 --> 01:14:22,439
Speaker 1: like um uh as an experiment, was like allow people

1293
01:14:22,479 --> 01:14:25,800
Speaker 1: who had bought his tokens to make life decisions for him,

1294
01:14:25,880 --> 01:14:27,799
Speaker 1: like tell him when to wake up in the morning

1295
01:14:27,800 --> 01:14:29,799
Speaker 1: and whether or not to eat red meat and stuff

1296
01:14:29,840 --> 01:14:32,840
Speaker 1: like that. And he stated that like, well, none of

1297
01:14:32,880 --> 01:14:35,559
Speaker 1: this is binding, right, Like I'll I might do what

1298
01:14:35,600 --> 01:14:37,200
Speaker 1: they say, but like I'm not going to do anything

1299
01:14:37,240 --> 01:14:40,240
Speaker 1: crazy or whatever. But also this is like the first

1300
01:14:40,320 --> 01:14:45,479
Speaker 1: iteration of this um. And I like this Atlantic article,

1301
01:14:45,560 --> 01:14:47,880
Speaker 1: which I think is unhinged for reasons we'll get into,

1302
01:14:47,960 --> 01:14:51,240
Speaker 1: but it's purely talking about like, look at this incredibly

1303
01:14:51,240 --> 01:14:53,679
Speaker 1: successful person. I imagine if they've gotten to be incredibly

1304
01:14:53,720 --> 01:14:56,680
Speaker 1: successful using this method instead, and it might have like

1305
01:14:57,360 --> 01:14:59,400
Speaker 1: spared them this thing. But when I keep thinking about

1306
01:14:59,520 --> 01:15:03,120
Speaker 1: is like, Okay, well, the vast majority of people like

1307
01:15:03,640 --> 01:15:06,559
Speaker 1: there's no reason to invest in them, Like yeah, maybe

1308
01:15:06,640 --> 01:15:08,600
Speaker 1: if you come out with a great song or a

1309
01:15:08,600 --> 01:15:10,880
Speaker 1: great video, like yeah, you could get investments and I'm

1310
01:15:10,880 --> 01:15:13,040
Speaker 1: sure that could work out. I'm sure, like Taylor Swift

1311
01:15:13,080 --> 01:15:15,040
Speaker 1: is a successful enough person, I'm sure she could have

1312
01:15:15,040 --> 01:15:17,800
Speaker 1: found a way to succeed under that system too. But

1313
01:15:18,560 --> 01:15:20,880
Speaker 1: what I think will be much more common because there's

1314
01:15:20,880 --> 01:15:23,920
Speaker 1: no real reason to anticipate that the average person will

1315
01:15:23,960 --> 01:15:26,719
Speaker 1: have an earnings potential. If you give them twenty grand,

1316
01:15:26,840 --> 01:15:32,000
Speaker 1: that's greater than twenty grand. Um. The most likely thing

1317
01:15:32,040 --> 01:15:33,920
Speaker 1: is that like people just buy shares and poor people

1318
01:15:33,960 --> 01:15:35,960
Speaker 1: to make them do fucked up ship. Yeah, it's gonna

1319
01:15:35,960 --> 01:15:37,600
Speaker 1: be how would you not? How would that not be

1320
01:15:37,640 --> 01:15:39,960
Speaker 1: where it goes? That's that that's the only way that

1321
01:15:40,000 --> 01:15:44,439
Speaker 1: this is going to get like used on a large scale.

1322
01:15:44,680 --> 01:15:49,640
Speaker 1: People just selling themselves. People are people are kind of

1323
01:15:49,720 --> 01:15:56,360
Speaker 1: use the Ether blockchain to like crowdfund and crowd uh

1324
01:15:56,520 --> 01:16:00,280
Speaker 1: cast a new jackass basically, Like it's going it's not

1325
01:16:00,320 --> 01:16:02,759
Speaker 1: going to be like a thousand Taylor Swift's all token

1326
01:16:02,800 --> 01:16:05,519
Speaker 1: izing themselves. It's going to be like millions of people

1327
01:16:05,520 --> 01:16:08,280
Speaker 1: in the global self issuing tokens to like vote on

1328
01:16:08,320 --> 01:16:11,120
Speaker 1: whether they roll down the hill in a barrel or

1329
01:16:11,160 --> 01:16:16,080
Speaker 1: in like a fucking porta potti. Like it's just it's

1330
01:16:16,080 --> 01:16:19,360
Speaker 1: a nightmare to me to contemplate people actually adopting this.

1331
01:16:20,080 --> 01:16:22,519
Speaker 1: You know, there's there's a lot of really like the

1332
01:16:22,600 --> 01:16:24,200
Speaker 1: thing I think is the most incredible part about this

1333
01:16:24,280 --> 01:16:29,400
Speaker 1: is that like, okay, so like it basically doesn't matter

1334
01:16:30,720 --> 01:16:34,680
Speaker 1: what like economic theory you used to look at it.

1335
01:16:34,680 --> 01:16:37,080
Speaker 1: It's like every single one of them tells you something

1336
01:16:37,160 --> 01:16:40,439
Speaker 1: just like absolutely fucked about it, and like, you know,

1337
01:16:40,439 --> 01:16:42,559
Speaker 1: because because I mean they're there, there's there's there's some

1338
01:16:42,600 --> 01:16:44,320
Speaker 1: extent to which I look at this and it's like,

1339
01:16:45,200 --> 01:16:48,240
Speaker 1: this isn't that much different than the fact, you know,

1340
01:16:48,240 --> 01:16:49,920
Speaker 1: it's like okay, so you're paying someone to do whatever

1341
01:16:49,960 --> 01:16:52,080
Speaker 1: you want, but like, okay, like that's not that much

1342
01:16:52,080 --> 01:16:55,920
Speaker 1: different than just a job, right, Like it's it's not

1343
01:16:56,120 --> 01:16:59,080
Speaker 1: it's not inherently that much different than the fact that

1344
01:16:59,120 --> 01:17:03,200
Speaker 1: everyone is to just do wage labor. But also, like

1345
01:17:04,640 --> 01:17:08,679
Speaker 1: there's one was interesting things to me that I thought

1346
01:17:08,680 --> 01:17:11,240
Speaker 1: about this when I was what I was reading this

1347
01:17:11,400 --> 01:17:16,800
Speaker 1: was so, do you just know what capitalization is? Yeah? Yeah,

1348
01:17:16,840 --> 01:17:19,000
Speaker 1: so this is this is just capitalizing a person, right,

1349
01:17:19,040 --> 01:17:25,080
Speaker 1: Like it's literally taking a person public effect putting turning

1350
01:17:25,080 --> 01:17:28,400
Speaker 1: them into like a tradeable share and that's like an investment. Yeah,

1351
01:17:28,680 --> 01:17:30,280
Speaker 1: I mean this is all one of the things that

1352
01:17:30,320 --> 01:17:32,240
Speaker 1: like a Forbes article I found point is like this

1353
01:17:32,320 --> 01:17:36,439
Speaker 1: is another kind of unregulated securities training. Yeah yeah, yeah.

1354
01:17:36,520 --> 01:17:38,679
Speaker 1: But what's what's interesting to me about it is that like, okay,

1355
01:17:38,720 --> 01:17:42,519
Speaker 1: so you know this is also already how accounting wise,

1356
01:17:42,600 --> 01:17:44,880
Speaker 1: every corporation sees a person, right like every every every

1357
01:17:44,880 --> 01:17:48,000
Speaker 1: every person in the asset book is you know, yeah,

1358
01:17:48,080 --> 01:17:50,400
Speaker 1: you know, like a wage is just capitalization, right, It's

1359
01:17:50,400 --> 01:17:52,519
Speaker 1: like how much will you pay now for this much money? Later?

1360
01:17:52,840 --> 01:17:54,600
Speaker 1: You could, but it's like people are doing it to

1361
01:17:54,640 --> 01:17:59,679
Speaker 1: themselves now, which just like this, Yeah, you could argue

1362
01:17:59,680 --> 01:18:02,160
Speaker 1: that like elements of this or how like banks treat

1363
01:18:02,200 --> 01:18:05,160
Speaker 1: you when you get a mortgage, right, um, like, but

1364
01:18:05,160 --> 01:18:10,800
Speaker 1: but also that's much more rigorous and limited, like it

1365
01:18:10,840 --> 01:18:14,240
Speaker 1: has like regulations and it has rules for how those

1366
01:18:14,280 --> 01:18:17,280
Speaker 1: things work. It's not some like twelve year old getting

1367
01:18:18,200 --> 01:18:21,240
Speaker 1: like like going on to coin base and buying part

1368
01:18:21,240 --> 01:18:23,120
Speaker 1: of you as a joke with your with like his

1369
01:18:23,200 --> 01:18:26,400
Speaker 1: dad's money, right, like, because it's like yeah, because what

1370
01:18:26,439 --> 01:18:30,000
Speaker 1: if it's like there's no law against a seventeen year

1371
01:18:30,040 --> 01:18:33,160
Speaker 1: old I guess if maybe their parents may need to consent,

1372
01:18:33,200 --> 01:18:35,439
Speaker 1: but there's no law against the seventeen year old getting

1373
01:18:35,439 --> 01:18:39,080
Speaker 1: a facial tattoo of like the doors of a concentration

1374
01:18:39,120 --> 01:18:42,440
Speaker 1: camp on their face. But what if some kid tokenizes

1375
01:18:42,520 --> 01:18:44,760
Speaker 1: himself for forty grands so he can drop an EP

1376
01:18:45,240 --> 01:18:48,120
Speaker 1: and that's what like a bunch of four channers who

1377
01:18:48,160 --> 01:18:51,479
Speaker 1: buy up his his shares want him to do um.

1378
01:18:51,520 --> 01:18:53,400
Speaker 1: And maybe the fucking kid does that because he knows

1379
01:18:53,400 --> 01:18:55,800
Speaker 1: it's going to get him, because his brain is not

1380
01:18:55,840 --> 01:18:57,360
Speaker 1: done and he knows it's going to get him. A

1381
01:18:57,360 --> 01:19:01,639
Speaker 1: bunch of fucking social media cloud. Yeah, Like it's there's

1382
01:19:01,640 --> 01:19:04,320
Speaker 1: a lot of and there's no way to regulate that. Like,

1383
01:19:04,360 --> 01:19:07,920
Speaker 1: it's just an inherently toxic proposition that I don't think

1384
01:19:07,920 --> 01:19:10,439
Speaker 1: the government would. I don't know what side of this

1385
01:19:10,520 --> 01:19:12,680
Speaker 1: the government would even step in on. Like what is

1386
01:19:12,720 --> 01:19:16,479
Speaker 1: the regulation of people deciding I'm letting random strangers who

1387
01:19:16,479 --> 01:19:18,479
Speaker 1: pay me money vote on what I do with my life.

1388
01:19:19,120 --> 01:19:20,720
Speaker 1: What do you ever think? It reminds me of a

1389
01:19:20,760 --> 01:19:23,719
Speaker 1: lot is like the micro lending stuff from the nineties,

1390
01:19:24,640 --> 01:19:26,640
Speaker 1: where it was like, oh, well, we'll like empower these

1391
01:19:26,640 --> 01:19:29,320
Speaker 1: people by we'll go in and uh, We're going to

1392
01:19:29,400 --> 01:19:30,920
Speaker 1: give them like a small amount of money and they

1393
01:19:30,920 --> 01:19:32,920
Speaker 1: have to pay back, and it was like you know,

1394
01:19:32,960 --> 01:19:35,880
Speaker 1: and and all of the same stuff that you're reading,

1395
01:19:35,960 --> 01:19:37,960
Speaker 1: all the arguments about why this is a good thing

1396
01:19:38,000 --> 01:19:40,559
Speaker 1: are exactly the same as the micro lending ones and

1397
01:19:40,640 --> 01:19:42,439
Speaker 1: that stuff. You know. There there were two ways it

1398
01:19:42,439 --> 01:19:48,559
Speaker 1: turned out. One was basically you get the scenario where

1399
01:19:48,560 --> 01:19:51,840
Speaker 1: both sides are scamming each other, where you know, all

1400
01:19:51,840 --> 01:19:53,720
Speaker 1: the people who are getting these micro loanchers, they're just

1401
01:19:53,720 --> 01:19:55,680
Speaker 1: taking the money and walking right like that's you know,

1402
01:19:55,760 --> 01:19:57,559
Speaker 1: the their their their things. Oh this is I can

1403
01:19:57,560 --> 01:19:59,040
Speaker 1: just get money like this and we can just keep

1404
01:19:59,320 --> 01:20:02,680
Speaker 1: I just keep paying it back. And so I'm scamming them.

1405
01:20:02,720 --> 01:20:04,400
Speaker 1: But then on the other side you have these people

1406
01:20:04,479 --> 01:20:06,280
Speaker 1: who are like, oh cool, I can give this person

1407
01:20:06,320 --> 01:20:08,960
Speaker 1: this loan and turn them into a debt peon and

1408
01:20:09,240 --> 01:20:11,240
Speaker 1: it and you know, and and the the the really

1409
01:20:11,280 --> 01:20:13,599
Speaker 1: depressing side about it is so that the people who

1410
01:20:13,640 --> 01:20:17,200
Speaker 1: couldn't get away, like I mean, we're literally reduced the

1411
01:20:17,240 --> 01:20:19,479
Speaker 1: debt pions and you know, I mean there's a huge

1412
01:20:19,479 --> 01:20:22,840
Speaker 1: wave of suicides in Indias. Probably don't say example, is

1413
01:20:22,840 --> 01:20:24,439
Speaker 1: a wave of suicide is people drinking past a side

1414
01:20:24,439 --> 01:20:27,240
Speaker 1: because they couldn't pay off these loans and so and

1415
01:20:27,080 --> 01:20:30,160
Speaker 1: And the thing that's different about this is that like

1416
01:20:30,720 --> 01:20:32,679
Speaker 1: I mean, a you're doing it to yourself. But then

1417
01:20:33,680 --> 01:20:37,240
Speaker 1: be again, there's no regulation, but that also means there

1418
01:20:37,280 --> 01:20:41,799
Speaker 1: isn't any way to force someone to do what you

1419
01:20:41,360 --> 01:20:44,519
Speaker 1: say you're going to do. It's unclear how it's going

1420
01:20:44,600 --> 01:20:46,439
Speaker 1: to be enforced. And the other thing that is clear

1421
01:20:46,560 --> 01:20:49,439
Speaker 1: is like what does losses look like? Like what what

1422
01:20:49,560 --> 01:20:53,000
Speaker 1: happens when someone like you cannot make back on like

1423
01:20:53,040 --> 01:20:55,960
Speaker 1: an investment, but if the investment is a person, how

1424
01:20:56,000 --> 01:20:59,680
Speaker 1: does that work? And if someone's contractually obligated to give

1425
01:20:59,720 --> 01:21:02,280
Speaker 1: us and share their income, what happens when there's not

1426
01:21:02,400 --> 01:21:04,679
Speaker 1: enough income for that? Like like you know, so those

1427
01:21:04,680 --> 01:21:08,639
Speaker 1: types of things. Yeah, I mean there's no answer to that. Uh,

1428
01:21:08,680 --> 01:21:12,080
Speaker 1: And there's nobody like the money that's going to be

1429
01:21:12,120 --> 01:21:15,960
Speaker 1: whatever made in this is going to be made before

1430
01:21:16,880 --> 01:21:19,759
Speaker 1: anyone steps into to try to answer that if anyone

1431
01:21:19,800 --> 01:21:24,120
Speaker 1: ever does, like, um, it's it's gonna be the next

1432
01:21:24,160 --> 01:21:25,880
Speaker 1: because I think we're I think we're heading for a

1433
01:21:25,920 --> 01:21:28,400
Speaker 1: crash with with n f T s. Like there was

1434
01:21:28,439 --> 01:21:31,679
Speaker 1: just an article today about how what is of nfc

1435
01:21:31,840 --> 01:21:34,000
Speaker 1: T trading is done by like ten percent of people,

1436
01:21:34,479 --> 01:21:36,840
Speaker 1: which further back because the allegations of n f t

1437
01:21:37,000 --> 01:21:39,519
Speaker 1: S is that most of what's happening isn't people actually

1438
01:21:39,600 --> 01:21:43,160
Speaker 1: buying them. It's people like the same person using multiple

1439
01:21:43,240 --> 01:21:46,519
Speaker 1: wallets basically trying to jack up the perceived value by

1440
01:21:46,520 --> 01:21:48,960
Speaker 1: throwing a bunch of other Internet money that they already have.

1441
01:21:49,080 --> 01:21:51,000
Speaker 1: So these these whales who have like a bunch of

1442
01:21:51,000 --> 01:21:54,360
Speaker 1: crypto gaming the system, and we've seen some of them,

1443
01:21:54,400 --> 01:21:56,160
Speaker 1: and the biggest n f t S salever, it was

1444
01:21:56,200 --> 01:21:57,840
Speaker 1: like half a billion dollars and it was a guy

1445
01:21:57,960 --> 01:22:00,320
Speaker 1: selling it to himself and then transferring it back into

1446
01:22:00,360 --> 01:22:02,680
Speaker 1: another wallet to try to make it look like it

1447
01:22:02,720 --> 01:22:05,080
Speaker 1: was worth half a billion dollars even though no one

1448
01:22:05,080 --> 01:22:09,680
Speaker 1: had actually really paid that for it. Um so I

1449
01:22:09,920 --> 01:22:11,760
Speaker 1: and I think you know that. And kind of what

1450
01:22:11,800 --> 01:22:14,680
Speaker 1: we've seen with the regulations the government's financed for n

1451
01:22:14,720 --> 01:22:16,920
Speaker 1: f t s, I think that's a problem for them

1452
01:22:16,960 --> 01:22:19,760
Speaker 1: in the near future. And I wouldn't be surprised to

1453
01:22:19,840 --> 01:22:24,280
Speaker 1: see this takeoff next, especially given like the creator economy

1454
01:22:24,320 --> 01:22:29,960
Speaker 1: that we're seeing on like the kind of that TikTok, yeah, TikTok,

1455
01:22:30,080 --> 01:22:31,679
Speaker 1: Like I wouldn't be surprised if you saw a rash

1456
01:22:31,680 --> 01:22:35,479
Speaker 1: of big TikTok stars tokenizing themselves and like I'm not

1457
01:22:35,520 --> 01:22:37,280
Speaker 1: even sure, I'm I'm I'm sure it would be a

1458
01:22:37,320 --> 01:22:40,320
Speaker 1: mix of the person making the tokens being the one

1459
01:22:40,479 --> 01:22:44,280
Speaker 1: doing the scam and the person receiving or the people

1460
01:22:44,280 --> 01:22:46,120
Speaker 1: buying the tokens being the one doing. Like, I'm sure

1461
01:22:46,120 --> 01:22:48,440
Speaker 1: it would be a mix of different kinds of exploitation.

1462
01:22:48,560 --> 01:22:51,400
Speaker 1: But it's not gonna be good, I mean, And and

1463
01:22:51,479 --> 01:22:54,400
Speaker 1: just like a, it's gonna make like I don't know,

1464
01:22:54,560 --> 01:22:57,040
Speaker 1: fifty people super rich when they when they first start

1465
01:22:57,120 --> 01:22:59,040
Speaker 1: trying it, right like that that is that is like

1466
01:22:59,080 --> 01:23:03,080
Speaker 1: when this happens, like when a TikTok star with million followers,

1467
01:23:03,240 --> 01:23:05,719
Speaker 1: when they do this, they will make boatloads of money.

1468
01:23:05,920 --> 01:23:11,040
Speaker 1: It's just unclear what happens after that. Yeah, well Fleet

1469
01:23:11,040 --> 01:23:14,120
Speaker 1: of Mexico. Yeah, I mean, that would be the smart thing.

1470
01:23:14,160 --> 01:23:16,880
Speaker 1: That would be the smart thing to YEA. In this

1471
01:23:16,960 --> 01:23:19,880
Speaker 1: Forbes article I found, which is a thousand times better

1472
01:23:19,880 --> 01:23:22,320
Speaker 1: than the Atlantic article, Like even though it's written by

1473
01:23:22,320 --> 01:23:25,439
Speaker 1: someone I think who's also into crypto, it's just it

1474
01:23:25,520 --> 01:23:28,880
Speaker 1: actually it asks some of these questions we've been talking

1475
01:23:28,880 --> 01:23:32,280
Speaker 1: about um and it cites David Hoffman, who's the CEO

1476
01:23:32,600 --> 01:23:35,960
Speaker 1: of a of a token ized real estate platform, um

1477
01:23:36,040 --> 01:23:38,080
Speaker 1: on what he sees as some of the problems, Like

1478
01:23:38,120 --> 01:23:41,160
Speaker 1: what he, as a guy who's supports aspects of this

1479
01:23:41,360 --> 01:23:46,440
Speaker 1: kind of thing, sees is the problems with this and uh,

1480
01:23:46,479 --> 01:23:50,960
Speaker 1: it's yeah one sec um Hoffman re returning to his

1481
01:23:51,000 --> 01:23:54,080
Speaker 1: core problem with the personal token model model. Hoffman re

1482
01:23:54,120 --> 01:23:58,160
Speaker 1: emphasized that the assurances and utility that come with some

1483
01:23:58,240 --> 01:24:01,320
Speaker 1: of these tokens don't exist, for with with certain kinds

1484
01:24:01,320 --> 01:24:04,040
Speaker 1: of tokens don't exist for like these personal tokens, how

1485
01:24:04,160 --> 01:24:07,440
Speaker 1: risky this investment is is completely defined by the individual.

1486
01:24:07,479 --> 01:24:09,479
Speaker 1: In his disclaimer, he's and he's talking about one of

1487
01:24:09,479 --> 01:24:12,880
Speaker 1: the guys who's token himself, this guy named Kerman. In

1488
01:24:12,960 --> 01:24:15,240
Speaker 1: his disclaimer, he says this is a highly risky investment

1489
01:24:15,240 --> 01:24:16,720
Speaker 1: and that you could lose all your money, which is

1490
01:24:16,720 --> 01:24:19,000
Speaker 1: a terrible thing to say, because with personal tokens, the

1491
01:24:19,040 --> 01:24:21,840
Speaker 1: issuer is in complete control over exactly how risky the

1492
01:24:21,840 --> 01:24:24,559
Speaker 1: investment actually is. It's largely up to them whether there

1493
01:24:24,560 --> 01:24:27,400
Speaker 1: are risks or not, which is like a kind of

1494
01:24:27,479 --> 01:24:30,839
Speaker 1: illegal securities trading that I don't think we've ever anyone's

1495
01:24:30,840 --> 01:24:35,559
Speaker 1: ever done. Um, Like it's this It's this fascinating new

1496
01:24:37,720 --> 01:24:43,719
Speaker 1: con where you're literally the you're you're doing securities trading,

1497
01:24:43,760 --> 01:24:46,040
Speaker 1: but instead of it being over a company, it's just

1498
01:24:46,200 --> 01:24:49,320
Speaker 1: you and technically there's no consequences if you just take

1499
01:24:49,320 --> 01:24:52,720
Speaker 1: the money and run, Like, I don't know what kind

1500
01:24:52,760 --> 01:24:55,400
Speaker 1: of contract, Like, you couldn't have a contract that says

1501
01:24:55,560 --> 01:24:57,920
Speaker 1: that you could say, they're that you're obligated to pay

1502
01:24:57,920 --> 01:25:01,800
Speaker 1: out your future earnings. You couldn't have to work like

1503
01:25:01,880 --> 01:25:07,519
Speaker 1: that's not enforceable. You can't like contractually obligate someone two

1504
01:25:08,080 --> 01:25:12,719
Speaker 1: to like work, like you're allowed to quit a job.

1505
01:25:13,320 --> 01:25:15,240
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess you could put penalties in it,

1506
01:25:15,280 --> 01:25:17,479
Speaker 1: but I don't, like, none of the current ones have anything,

1507
01:25:17,560 --> 01:25:20,280
Speaker 1: I mean, or they could go to The other option

1508
01:25:20,400 --> 01:25:22,160
Speaker 1: is is that they could go to jail for fraud

1509
01:25:22,200 --> 01:25:24,719
Speaker 1: if they try to if they try to not follow

1510
01:25:24,760 --> 01:25:26,840
Speaker 1: through on the investment. If you say, like, yeah, I

1511
01:25:27,240 --> 01:25:29,320
Speaker 1: I invested in you and you said that you would

1512
01:25:29,320 --> 01:25:32,160
Speaker 1: do these things, you didn't do them, Now you can

1513
01:25:32,160 --> 01:25:36,160
Speaker 1: go to prison. That is the other Yeah, and I

1514
01:25:36,200 --> 01:25:38,639
Speaker 1: think that will at some point, like there will be

1515
01:25:38,720 --> 01:25:40,600
Speaker 1: scams and some of that will come in, but like,

1516
01:25:40,640 --> 01:25:42,320
Speaker 1: none of these current ones, none of them are saying,

1517
01:25:42,479 --> 01:25:44,559
Speaker 1: here's my specific I'm going to make this special. It's

1518
01:25:44,560 --> 01:25:48,639
Speaker 1: not like like if you like with a Patreon, right,

1519
01:25:48,840 --> 01:25:51,360
Speaker 1: You're you're paying a little bit at a time on

1520
01:25:51,400 --> 01:25:55,240
Speaker 1: an ongoing basis for a very clear product. Generally, this

1521
01:25:55,320 --> 01:25:57,280
Speaker 1: is so far These aren't that. They're just like, I'm

1522
01:25:57,320 --> 01:25:59,519
Speaker 1: gonna try to do something that makes money and if

1523
01:25:59,520 --> 01:26:01,880
Speaker 1: it does, you get a cut of it. And that's

1524
01:26:02,720 --> 01:26:05,080
Speaker 1: it's so much like there's nothing that's stopping mass metch

1525
01:26:05,120 --> 01:26:08,679
Speaker 1: from saying like, hey, my my and my attempt didn't work.

1526
01:26:09,000 --> 01:26:12,120
Speaker 1: Uh so we're done. No no money for anybody like that,

1527
01:26:12,439 --> 01:26:15,240
Speaker 1: and I you're not. There's no accounting requirements, there's no

1528
01:26:15,640 --> 01:26:17,240
Speaker 1: there's a bunch of ways in which it's sucked up

1529
01:26:17,240 --> 01:26:21,120
Speaker 1: from a financial except it's not it's not his, it's

1530
01:26:21,120 --> 01:26:23,400
Speaker 1: not it's not you're not investing in his business. You're

1531
01:26:23,400 --> 01:26:25,400
Speaker 1: nesting in him. So even even if even if he

1532
01:26:25,439 --> 01:26:30,120
Speaker 1: takes another job, they're still it seems to be contractually

1533
01:26:30,160 --> 01:26:34,280
Speaker 1: obligated to still get that of his income. Yes, and

1534
01:26:34,320 --> 01:26:36,080
Speaker 1: I think that's that's the area in which I think

1535
01:26:36,080 --> 01:26:38,719
Speaker 1: it would be abusive for the person being token ized,

1536
01:26:39,320 --> 01:26:43,680
Speaker 1: because most people aren't gonna like most people don't make

1537
01:26:43,720 --> 01:26:46,640
Speaker 1: that much money, so they raise someone manages to like

1538
01:26:46,760 --> 01:26:49,840
Speaker 1: raise five or ten grand and then just winds up

1539
01:26:50,080 --> 01:26:53,200
Speaker 1: for years giving a cut of their income that winds

1540
01:26:53,280 --> 01:26:55,559
Speaker 1: up being more than they got initially to a bunch

1541
01:26:55,560 --> 01:26:58,240
Speaker 1: of like it's almost like a like a payday loan

1542
01:26:58,360 --> 01:27:02,240
Speaker 1: that you've blocked. Yeah, you know, Okay, so this is

1543
01:27:02,439 --> 01:27:04,439
Speaker 1: this is what I'm thinking about, because so there's I

1544
01:27:04,479 --> 01:27:06,360
Speaker 1: don't know if I talked about this on the show,

1545
01:27:06,680 --> 01:27:09,880
Speaker 1: but there's a thing in China where they've been kind

1546
01:27:09,880 --> 01:27:12,680
Speaker 1: of cracking down it now for funding like nineteen like

1547
01:27:12,720 --> 01:27:16,240
Speaker 1: literally every single app like had a like had a

1548
01:27:16,240 --> 01:27:18,200
Speaker 1: pet a loan thing in it, so like like your

1549
01:27:18,240 --> 01:27:21,000
Speaker 1: flashlight app would have would offer you a pet a loan,

1550
01:27:21,000 --> 01:27:23,280
Speaker 1: and it was basically it was yeah, they were They

1551
01:27:23,320 --> 01:27:27,160
Speaker 1: were originally tied in with like people who buy um,

1552
01:27:27,240 --> 01:27:28,639
Speaker 1: you know. I was originally tied in with like like

1553
01:27:29,320 --> 01:27:32,519
Speaker 1: the the services that like their version of Amazon for example,

1554
01:27:32,800 --> 01:27:34,680
Speaker 1: would like, oh, hey, we'll give you a loan so

1555
01:27:34,680 --> 01:27:36,920
Speaker 1: you can buy this, you can order fried chicken. And

1556
01:27:36,960 --> 01:27:39,679
Speaker 1: I was always wondering when this would come to the US,

1557
01:27:40,720 --> 01:27:43,759
Speaker 1: and I think it might never hope, I mean hopefully

1558
01:27:43,800 --> 01:27:45,120
Speaker 1: it never does, and I think it might not just

1559
01:27:45,160 --> 01:27:48,599
Speaker 1: because of how like powerful our petty a loan industry is.

1560
01:27:49,240 --> 01:27:52,479
Speaker 1: But it's like we've we've now invented it seems like

1561
01:27:52,479 --> 01:27:56,200
Speaker 1: it's gonna happen, but like dumber, like our our version

1562
01:27:56,200 --> 01:28:00,720
Speaker 1: of it is like this thing which is just you know,

1563
01:28:00,840 --> 01:28:03,040
Speaker 1: it's what what if? What if paid a loans but

1564
01:28:03,120 --> 01:28:06,560
Speaker 1: on the blockchain? Except you know, I mean when I

1565
01:28:07,000 --> 01:28:09,040
Speaker 1: guess this is the everything you know that that we've've

1566
01:28:09,040 --> 01:28:12,000
Speaker 1: been getting at is that the difference between this being

1567
01:28:12,040 --> 01:28:15,080
Speaker 1: a paid a loan and this being you scammed a

1568
01:28:15,080 --> 01:28:18,280
Speaker 1: bunch of people is what the enforcement mechanism looks like.

1569
01:28:19,560 --> 01:28:22,680
Speaker 1: And you know this this this comes back to some

1570
01:28:22,720 --> 01:28:25,800
Speaker 1: other things I think you're interesting about. This. One is

1571
01:28:25,960 --> 01:28:29,000
Speaker 1: that you know, so the whole theine n f T

1572
01:28:29,160 --> 01:28:32,799
Speaker 1: drift right is based on convincing people that there's value

1573
01:28:33,240 --> 01:28:38,160
Speaker 1: in ownership, right there, Like ownership itself has inherently has value.

1574
01:28:38,600 --> 01:28:40,960
Speaker 1: And yeah, but but this this is not that this

1575
01:28:41,000 --> 01:28:42,720
Speaker 1: is this is you know, this is going back to

1576
01:28:43,040 --> 01:28:46,800
Speaker 1: know your value value is built on labor, right, Well, yeah,

1577
01:28:47,360 --> 01:28:51,200
Speaker 1: it's like labor and like like personhood, like like you

1578
01:28:51,280 --> 01:28:54,519
Speaker 1: as a personal brand is the thing that they're trying

1579
01:28:54,560 --> 01:28:56,559
Speaker 1: to get at. But but the thing, the thing that's

1580
01:28:56,560 --> 01:28:59,960
Speaker 1: missing here, though, is that in order for like, you know,

1581
01:29:00,040 --> 01:29:03,280
Speaker 1: in order for like labor to produce value right in

1582
01:29:03,640 --> 01:29:06,120
Speaker 1: this way, there has to be like there has to

1583
01:29:06,160 --> 01:29:07,960
Speaker 1: be a way for you to force them to pay

1584
01:29:08,000 --> 01:29:10,519
Speaker 1: you like you need you need coercion for it. And

1585
01:29:10,680 --> 01:29:12,920
Speaker 1: if there's no coercion, then you know, you just take

1586
01:29:12,960 --> 01:29:15,840
Speaker 1: a bunch of money and leave. And and that that

1587
01:29:15,920 --> 01:29:17,599
Speaker 1: I think is like this, this is going to be

1588
01:29:17,640 --> 01:29:20,519
Speaker 1: the battle over like, if this becomes a thing, it's

1589
01:29:20,560 --> 01:29:23,640
Speaker 1: going to be you know, the people who buy these

1590
01:29:23,640 --> 01:29:26,600
Speaker 1: things are gonna wind up like trying to you know,

1591
01:29:26,680 --> 01:29:27,840
Speaker 1: I think they're gonna be the ones you try to

1592
01:29:27,840 --> 01:29:29,800
Speaker 1: put your regulation because they're gonna you know, they're gonna

1593
01:29:29,840 --> 01:29:31,000
Speaker 1: go in. They're gonna be I want to get my

1594
01:29:31,040 --> 01:29:36,559
Speaker 1: money back, And that could end really really really badly

1595
01:29:37,600 --> 01:29:41,640
Speaker 1: if you know, I mean, it probably will. I Like,

1596
01:29:41,720 --> 01:29:44,280
Speaker 1: I don't know how popular I think this will be

1597
01:29:44,280 --> 01:29:46,240
Speaker 1: because I think that I hope that this is a

1598
01:29:46,680 --> 01:29:48,800
Speaker 1: maybe if there'd never been like a Patreon or something.

1599
01:29:48,840 --> 01:29:53,720
Speaker 1: But the actual use case of this seems to already

1600
01:29:53,760 --> 01:29:58,960
Speaker 1: be well served by the existing capitalist infrastructure, Like people

1601
01:29:59,040 --> 01:30:02,680
Speaker 1: I think more people wanted back a creator's Patreon than

1602
01:30:02,720 --> 01:30:06,200
Speaker 1: they want to like own pieces of a person's time

1603
01:30:06,360 --> 01:30:09,960
Speaker 1: and earning potential like that. That seems like a more

1604
01:30:10,080 --> 01:30:12,960
Speaker 1: niche and weird desire to people than just like, oh yeah,

1605
01:30:12,960 --> 01:30:14,760
Speaker 1: these guys make a video I like every week, so

1606
01:30:14,800 --> 01:30:17,160
Speaker 1: I'll throw them three dollars. Well, I think I think

1607
01:30:17,200 --> 01:30:19,960
Speaker 1: the difference though, is that pitch your on money gets

1608
01:30:19,960 --> 01:30:22,240
Speaker 1: you money for normal people. This gets you money from

1609
01:30:22,280 --> 01:30:26,599
Speaker 1: like tech bros. And that. Yeah, that's always yeah, it's

1610
01:30:26,640 --> 01:30:30,000
Speaker 1: it's a grift designed to And I want to dive

1611
01:30:30,000 --> 01:30:32,240
Speaker 1: back into this Atlantic article because it's so bad in

1612
01:30:32,320 --> 01:30:34,760
Speaker 1: such a comprehensive way that I think it deserves analysis.

1613
01:30:34,720 --> 01:30:37,000
Speaker 1: That's what what put a pin in what you said.

1614
01:30:37,320 --> 01:30:39,759
Speaker 1: But I want to start with, like how the person

1615
01:30:39,960 --> 01:30:44,720
Speaker 1: writing this, this Rex motherfucker, like his his concept of

1616
01:30:44,760 --> 01:30:49,320
Speaker 1: the the history of the Internet, um, because it's completely wrong. Quote.

1617
01:30:49,640 --> 01:30:52,080
Speaker 1: We're on the precipice of the third era of the Web.

1618
01:30:52,160 --> 01:30:55,080
Speaker 1: The Web's first era was about information flowing freely. Think

1619
01:30:55,120 --> 01:30:57,960
Speaker 1: Google giving you access to the world's knowledge. Most of

1620
01:30:58,000 --> 01:31:00,760
Speaker 1: us were passive consumers in this era. The second era

1621
01:31:00,880 --> 01:31:04,080
Speaker 1: was the social web Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, people began to

1622
01:31:04,120 --> 01:31:06,920
Speaker 1: create their own content, and that content became the lifeblood

1623
01:31:06,920 --> 01:31:09,880
Speaker 1: of the big platforms. We became active participants, but the

1624
01:31:09,880 --> 01:31:13,120
Speaker 1: platforms devoured all the profits. The promise of the Internet

1625
01:31:13,120 --> 01:31:15,640
Speaker 1: and the Internet was to erase the gatekeepers. Instead of

1626
01:31:15,680 --> 01:31:17,559
Speaker 1: waiting for a record label to sign you, you could

1627
01:31:17,560 --> 01:31:20,960
Speaker 1: share your music on Spotify. Instead of asking a publication

1628
01:31:21,000 --> 01:31:23,360
Speaker 1: to share your words. You could tweet, instead of being

1629
01:31:23,400 --> 01:31:25,879
Speaker 1: tapped by a studio execut you could become a YouTuber.

1630
01:31:26,280 --> 01:31:29,480
Speaker 1: What happened is that these platforms became the new gatekeepers.

1631
01:31:29,840 --> 01:31:32,080
Speaker 1: The third era of the web is about writing the ship.

1632
01:31:32,400 --> 01:31:36,559
Speaker 1: Social capital becomes economic capital. Value no longer accumulates to

1633
01:31:36,600 --> 01:31:42,599
Speaker 1: brokers and intermediaries. That's number one, completely wrong. But one thing, Yeah,

1634
01:31:43,120 --> 01:31:45,360
Speaker 1: the first era of the Internet, I would say, was

1635
01:31:45,400 --> 01:31:48,280
Speaker 1: about the idea that information should flow freely. And Google

1636
01:31:48,360 --> 01:31:50,719
Speaker 1: came in like a decade or more into that period.

1637
01:31:51,080 --> 01:31:52,880
Speaker 1: Like I had been on the Internet five years before

1638
01:31:52,880 --> 01:31:55,200
Speaker 1: Google hopped into that ship, and Google was actually the

1639
01:31:55,280 --> 01:31:59,160
Speaker 1: start of of the end of that period um And

1640
01:31:59,240 --> 01:32:02,960
Speaker 1: it's it's the idea that, like the social Web, was

1641
01:32:03,080 --> 01:32:07,759
Speaker 1: people creating their own content. Most of the social Web's

1642
01:32:07,840 --> 01:32:11,439
Speaker 1: initial capital and like all of its initial money came

1643
01:32:11,520 --> 01:32:14,679
Speaker 1: from taking content that people were being paid to make

1644
01:32:14,760 --> 01:32:18,400
Speaker 1: on legacy platforms that had existed before social media, taking

1645
01:32:18,439 --> 01:32:22,360
Speaker 1: that content, putting it on social media, and then monetizing

1646
01:32:22,400 --> 01:32:24,920
Speaker 1: that without paying money back to the people had made

1647
01:32:24,960 --> 01:32:28,240
Speaker 1: the content. The money in social media did not initially

1648
01:32:28,320 --> 01:32:31,680
Speaker 1: come from people making their own content, and the way

1649
01:32:31,720 --> 01:32:34,880
Speaker 1: that they mean it, like yeah, you at college humor

1650
01:32:35,080 --> 01:32:38,280
Speaker 1: or whatever, we're making your own content and sharing it

1651
01:32:38,320 --> 01:32:40,719
Speaker 1: on social media. But you've been doing that before social media.

1652
01:32:40,800 --> 01:32:44,080
Speaker 1: Social media just actually made it less profitable eventually, Like

1653
01:32:44,360 --> 01:32:47,519
Speaker 1: the way he summarizes this is so wrong because what

1654
01:32:47,720 --> 01:32:49,559
Speaker 1: the social web actually did. And the other thing I'd

1655
01:32:49,640 --> 01:32:52,080
Speaker 1: argue is that the first era of the Internet, the

1656
01:32:52,200 --> 01:32:54,799
Speaker 1: like early days when things are happening on like forums

1657
01:32:54,840 --> 01:32:57,280
Speaker 1: and and weird little angel fire websites and like even

1658
01:32:57,360 --> 01:33:00,720
Speaker 1: my space. Um would I think is kind of my

1659
01:33:00,760 --> 01:33:04,400
Speaker 1: Space kind of straddles the first in second eras UH,

1660
01:33:04,439 --> 01:33:08,559
Speaker 1: that was fundamentally much more an era of people creating

1661
01:33:08,600 --> 01:33:13,360
Speaker 1: their own content. Because the the lifeblood of UH social

1662
01:33:13,400 --> 01:33:15,840
Speaker 1: media today isn't people really making their own content, it's

1663
01:33:15,840 --> 01:33:19,519
Speaker 1: people reacting to content that other people made. UM. And again,

1664
01:33:19,880 --> 01:33:22,400
Speaker 1: it just shows the fact that he's he's summarizing it

1665
01:33:22,479 --> 01:33:24,040
Speaker 1: this way in a way that I think is so

1666
01:33:24,120 --> 01:33:28,640
Speaker 1: wrong and inaccurate to how things actually developed. Uh. Is

1667
01:33:29,280 --> 01:33:32,200
Speaker 1: characteristic of his attitude towards this stuff where he's kind

1668
01:33:32,240 --> 01:33:36,200
Speaker 1: of seeing the only real meaningful evolutions in in in

1669
01:33:36,240 --> 01:33:41,120
Speaker 1: the Internet through the corporations that monetized it, um, which

1670
01:33:41,600 --> 01:33:44,240
Speaker 1: is just telling of like how this guy actually sees

1671
01:33:44,280 --> 01:33:46,280
Speaker 1: the way the Internet has developed. And you will not

1672
01:33:46,320 --> 01:33:49,679
Speaker 1: be surprised to know, Uh, this motherfucker is an investor

1673
01:33:49,720 --> 01:33:54,320
Speaker 1: at Index Ventures. Um. Yeah, like he's he's he's a

1674
01:33:54,320 --> 01:33:59,559
Speaker 1: guy who's business is capitalizing things, um. And so that's

1675
01:33:59,600 --> 01:34:01,639
Speaker 1: the only way he sees the development of the Internet,

1676
01:34:01,680 --> 01:34:03,920
Speaker 1: even though that's not the accurate way of looking at

1677
01:34:03,920 --> 01:34:06,200
Speaker 1: how the Internet evolved. And I think I think that

1678
01:34:06,280 --> 01:34:08,720
Speaker 1: there's one more really important thing that he leaves out here,

1679
01:34:08,760 --> 01:34:11,400
Speaker 1: which is that because you know, like we're talking, oh,

1680
01:34:11,439 --> 01:34:12,640
Speaker 1: this is the third age of the Internet, Like, no,

1681
01:34:12,720 --> 01:34:15,280
Speaker 1: the third day of the Internet started, like I don't know,

1682
01:34:15,680 --> 01:34:19,479
Speaker 1: the mid early mid tends. When I would say when

1683
01:34:19,560 --> 01:34:22,080
Speaker 1: gamer Gate hit is when I would I would I mean,

1684
01:34:22,120 --> 01:34:24,040
Speaker 1: it's going to be a little off, I depend it

1685
01:34:24,080 --> 01:34:26,800
Speaker 1: depends what it depends what you mean by age. So

1686
01:34:26,920 --> 01:34:29,720
Speaker 1: one of my friends worst in advertising, and he was

1687
01:34:29,760 --> 01:34:31,640
Speaker 1: talking about this where you know, can we can we

1688
01:34:31,640 --> 01:34:33,080
Speaker 1: can talk about like gammer Gate in the sort of

1689
01:34:33,120 --> 01:34:35,360
Speaker 1: fascist Miles. But there was something else happening back end,

1690
01:34:35,720 --> 01:34:37,839
Speaker 1: which was the Internet of things stuff and the Internet

1691
01:34:37,880 --> 01:34:41,479
Speaker 1: things stuff like you know, like nobody it's kind of

1692
01:34:41,479 --> 01:34:43,439
Speaker 1: a I don't know, like I think we mostly think

1693
01:34:43,479 --> 01:34:44,880
Speaker 1: about it is like it's kind of a joke or

1694
01:34:45,000 --> 01:34:47,640
Speaker 1: like it just sucks. But really what it was was

1695
01:34:47,680 --> 01:34:49,800
Speaker 1: that that that was the period in which people figured

1696
01:34:49,800 --> 01:34:51,720
Speaker 1: out that the thing that the actual money and to

1697
01:34:51,800 --> 01:34:53,519
Speaker 1: be made on the Internet was some selling people's personal

1698
01:34:53,520 --> 01:34:56,599
Speaker 1: information and that and the and and the Internet things

1699
01:34:56,640 --> 01:35:00,080
Speaker 1: like just dramatic, like just indescribably increased the amount of

1700
01:35:00,160 --> 01:35:03,599
Speaker 1: data that you could extract from people. And that that

1701
01:35:03,720 --> 01:35:06,240
Speaker 1: was that's the actual that was the actual change of

1702
01:35:06,320 --> 01:35:08,080
Speaker 1: like like that that that's that's that's the thirty of

1703
01:35:08,080 --> 01:35:10,000
Speaker 1: the Internet, and that the earth the Internet will last

1704
01:35:10,040 --> 01:35:12,599
Speaker 1: basically for everyone until we destroy it, which is that

1705
01:35:12,720 --> 01:35:17,479
Speaker 1: you know, the commodity is just all of all of

1706
01:35:17,520 --> 01:35:20,120
Speaker 1: the information about who you are, where you go, like

1707
01:35:20,240 --> 01:35:23,400
Speaker 1: what you buy, who you talk to, that just being

1708
01:35:23,760 --> 01:35:27,800
Speaker 1: sold off to two advertisers, is you know the thing

1709
01:35:27,840 --> 01:35:33,240
Speaker 1: that he's very very carefully not talking about and instead

1710
01:35:33,280 --> 01:35:36,040
Speaker 1: focusing on, Oh, it was users creating content. And it's like, no,

1711
01:35:36,320 --> 01:35:40,760
Speaker 1: they the Internet just they they sold spying on the

1712
01:35:40,920 --> 01:35:44,479
Speaker 1: entire world. Yeah, And I think there's there's two good

1713
01:35:44,520 --> 01:35:47,800
Speaker 1: ways to to divide the Internet into ages, and the

1714
01:35:47,840 --> 01:35:49,960
Speaker 1: ages would be slightly different each way. One is kind

1715
01:35:49,960 --> 01:35:51,760
Speaker 1: of how you're doing it is the way in which

1716
01:35:51,800 --> 01:35:54,720
Speaker 1: it was monetized, Right, That's that's that's one way too.

1717
01:35:54,800 --> 01:35:56,400
Speaker 1: And and then if that's the case, it's going to

1718
01:35:56,439 --> 01:35:57,680
Speaker 1: start with it was not at all. It was an

1719
01:35:57,760 --> 01:35:59,800
Speaker 1: entirely public project and everybody on it was on it

1720
01:36:00,120 --> 01:36:02,760
Speaker 1: like a university, and like people did not pay to

1721
01:36:02,920 --> 01:36:05,080
Speaker 1: access it. Other than that you had to be at

1722
01:36:05,080 --> 01:36:08,040
Speaker 1: an institution or a university. And then like we get

1723
01:36:08,040 --> 01:36:10,880
Speaker 1: to the kind of the dot the era before the

1724
01:36:10,960 --> 01:36:13,160
Speaker 1: dot com boom and of the dot com boom, and

1725
01:36:13,200 --> 01:36:16,719
Speaker 1: then like the early pre social Internet stuff like something

1726
01:36:16,760 --> 01:36:21,240
Speaker 1: awful and like having stumbled upon and and whatnot, and

1727
01:36:21,320 --> 01:36:23,800
Speaker 1: like those sending traffic to sites like where I used

1728
01:36:23,800 --> 01:36:26,320
Speaker 1: to wear, cracked and um, and then kind of the

1729
01:36:26,360 --> 01:36:28,360
Speaker 1: social media, which is the start of as you said,

1730
01:36:28,400 --> 01:36:32,160
Speaker 1: like the data being monitored monetize like individuals data being

1731
01:36:32,200 --> 01:36:35,240
Speaker 1: the thing either that's being directly monetized or it's being

1732
01:36:35,360 --> 01:36:39,519
Speaker 1: used to deliver like targeted adds to you. Um. And

1733
01:36:39,560 --> 01:36:41,120
Speaker 1: then there's like if you think about it in terms

1734
01:36:41,160 --> 01:36:44,360
Speaker 1: of content, it's it starts like for the first era

1735
01:36:44,400 --> 01:36:46,800
Speaker 1: wouldn't even involve Google because it would be like the

1736
01:36:46,840 --> 01:36:49,240
Speaker 1: start of us neet up to eternal September in nine

1737
01:36:50,120 --> 01:36:53,559
Speaker 1: and then you know on from there. Um. But either way,

1738
01:36:53,600 --> 01:36:56,400
Speaker 1: this guy doesn't like everything he says about the history

1739
01:36:56,400 --> 01:36:59,920
Speaker 1: of the Internet is dumb. It's just a very simplified

1740
01:37:00,080 --> 01:37:04,000
Speaker 1: version and you don't actually look at like the interocking systems. Um.

1741
01:37:04,040 --> 01:37:06,320
Speaker 1: Because I mean, yeah, I don't know why he describes

1742
01:37:06,320 --> 01:37:09,920
Speaker 1: it this way, because it is it is like it's

1743
01:37:10,160 --> 01:37:13,800
Speaker 1: accurate if you squint and don't think about it. Um.

1744
01:37:13,840 --> 01:37:16,479
Speaker 1: But it's weird because like this article is like it's

1745
01:37:16,520 --> 01:37:19,560
Speaker 1: for tech bros. So I don't know why he describes

1746
01:37:19,600 --> 01:37:21,719
Speaker 1: it this way because I feel like he could describe

1747
01:37:21,760 --> 01:37:24,080
Speaker 1: it a lot more accurately, um if you if you

1748
01:37:24,160 --> 01:37:26,479
Speaker 1: wanted to, Well, it's something I'm gonna get into. I'm

1749
01:37:26,520 --> 01:37:28,519
Speaker 1: gonna say this point like twice Episode'm gonna get into

1750
01:37:28,520 --> 01:37:31,240
Speaker 1: the neoliberalism episodes, and I'm writing, but one of one

1751
01:37:31,280 --> 01:37:33,640
Speaker 1: of the key features of neoliberalisms that they lie, is

1752
01:37:33,640 --> 01:37:35,680
Speaker 1: that the neo liberals have to have two versions of

1753
01:37:35,680 --> 01:37:37,280
Speaker 1: what they believe. They have the version that they tell

1754
01:37:37,280 --> 01:37:39,240
Speaker 1: everyone else, which is completely a lie and is not

1755
01:37:39,280 --> 01:37:41,040
Speaker 1: what they believe at all. And then it has they

1756
01:37:41,040 --> 01:37:42,679
Speaker 1: have the version that they tell to each other, which

1757
01:37:42,720 --> 01:37:44,920
Speaker 1: is what they actually believe, and they completely they contradict

1758
01:37:44,960 --> 01:37:48,320
Speaker 1: each other completely. They mostly believe things. Everything they say

1759
01:37:48,360 --> 01:37:50,240
Speaker 1: in public is just a complete lie. And that I

1760
01:37:50,240 --> 01:37:52,439
Speaker 1: think that's what he's doing here, which is that this

1761
01:37:52,600 --> 01:37:54,559
Speaker 1: that like that history of the Internet is the one

1762
01:37:54,600 --> 01:37:57,639
Speaker 1: you sell the public consumption, because yeah, that that's that's

1763
01:37:57,680 --> 01:37:59,599
Speaker 1: that's the lie you tell people to take money from them.

1764
01:38:00,040 --> 01:38:01,680
Speaker 1: And then he has a thing that he believes but

1765
01:38:01,800 --> 01:38:04,559
Speaker 1: which he will not ever tell you because you know,

1766
01:38:04,680 --> 01:38:06,519
Speaker 1: if if if he tells you what like he actually

1767
01:38:06,520 --> 01:38:08,120
Speaker 1: wanted to do, you would run screaming from the room.

1768
01:38:08,439 --> 01:38:12,200
Speaker 1: And you can you can read between what he wants

1769
01:38:12,240 --> 01:38:15,439
Speaker 1: you to believe. I think is made very clear by

1770
01:38:15,479 --> 01:38:17,719
Speaker 1: how he divides. By the fact that when he starts

1771
01:38:17,800 --> 01:38:19,439
Speaker 1: like dividing up the ages of the Internet. He says,

1772
01:38:19,479 --> 01:38:21,639
Speaker 1: the first one is the time in which people wanted

1773
01:38:21,680 --> 01:38:24,400
Speaker 1: information to be free. And what he's kind of saying

1774
01:38:24,400 --> 01:38:26,679
Speaker 1: by doing that is thaying like that was an infant

1775
01:38:26,720 --> 01:38:30,559
Speaker 1: stage of the Internet, and obviously the natural evolution of

1776
01:38:30,600 --> 01:38:33,120
Speaker 1: the Internet is for every single thing on it to

1777
01:38:33,160 --> 01:38:36,360
Speaker 1: become monetized. And because I also believe the Internet should

1778
01:38:36,360 --> 01:38:38,280
Speaker 1: be every aspect of our lives, like this is a

1779
01:38:38,320 --> 01:38:40,600
Speaker 1: megaverse guy or a metaverse guy, like I think the

1780
01:38:40,640 --> 01:38:43,760
Speaker 1: Internet should should be involved in every aspect of life.

1781
01:38:43,920 --> 01:38:47,560
Speaker 1: That means every aspect of life should be financialized. Um,

1782
01:38:47,680 --> 01:38:52,080
Speaker 1: and that's extremely radical, but it does not sound that way.

1783
01:38:52,160 --> 01:38:55,320
Speaker 1: When you describe it that way, people's heads go over it.

1784
01:38:55,320 --> 01:38:57,559
Speaker 1: But like what he's saying is deeply radical. And I

1785
01:38:57,600 --> 01:39:00,439
Speaker 1: think also, like again you want to talk about like

1786
01:39:00,479 --> 01:39:03,439
Speaker 1: the first and not just the early age, because the

1787
01:39:03,760 --> 01:39:05,600
Speaker 1: first people who kind of built the backbone of the

1788
01:39:05,640 --> 01:39:11,000
Speaker 1: Internet were mostly like very radically anti uh capitalizing on

1789
01:39:11,080 --> 01:39:13,400
Speaker 1: Like there was this idea that like it absolutely should

1790
01:39:13,439 --> 01:39:16,200
Speaker 1: be as free as possible. Like Steve Wozniak, the guy

1791
01:39:16,240 --> 01:39:20,680
Speaker 1: who functionally invented the personal computer, had a background like

1792
01:39:20,840 --> 01:39:23,839
Speaker 1: as a phone freaker, like literally literally robbing phone companies

1793
01:39:23,880 --> 01:39:25,680
Speaker 1: to get like free phone calls and stuff like these,

1794
01:39:25,960 --> 01:39:28,960
Speaker 1: Like most of the early Internet pioneers were like some

1795
01:39:29,080 --> 01:39:33,400
Speaker 1: kind of criminal um and the early ages of like

1796
01:39:33,439 --> 01:39:37,439
Speaker 1: Internet content being monetized mostly started with people doing ship

1797
01:39:37,640 --> 01:39:39,920
Speaker 1: for free. Like that was how the people who made

1798
01:39:39,960 --> 01:39:41,880
Speaker 1: money on it. That's how all of my bosses and

1799
01:39:41,920 --> 01:39:43,559
Speaker 1: that's how fucking I got started. Was like you would

1800
01:39:43,600 --> 01:39:45,200
Speaker 1: just start making ship and you would put it out

1801
01:39:45,200 --> 01:39:49,240
Speaker 1: for free, and eventually like that would get enough traffic

1802
01:39:49,280 --> 01:39:52,400
Speaker 1: that you you you you draw ads to you and whatnot,

1803
01:39:52,439 --> 01:39:54,960
Speaker 1: and you'd make money. But it was always like all

1804
01:39:54,960 --> 01:39:57,280
Speaker 1: of the content that that made the Internet, and all

1805
01:39:57,320 --> 01:40:00,519
Speaker 1: of the content creators who were huge now mostly started

1806
01:40:01,120 --> 01:40:03,280
Speaker 1: um doing something like even it was just like throwing

1807
01:40:03,320 --> 01:40:06,160
Speaker 1: up videos on YouTube, right or like going on. And

1808
01:40:06,400 --> 01:40:09,080
Speaker 1: that's that's less the case with the zoomers now because

1809
01:40:09,080 --> 01:40:11,639
Speaker 1: a lot of them got started on at things like

1810
01:40:11,640 --> 01:40:14,120
Speaker 1: like Twitch, where the idea is to from the beginning

1811
01:40:14,200 --> 01:40:16,880
Speaker 1: be trying to monetize yourself and while you're like building

1812
01:40:16,880 --> 01:40:21,000
Speaker 1: a brand, you're constantly monetized. But that's a really recent change,

1813
01:40:21,000 --> 01:40:23,920
Speaker 1: and I actually I find it kind of unsettling because

1814
01:40:23,960 --> 01:40:26,559
Speaker 1: that was I don't know, it's a mix because I'm

1815
01:40:26,560 --> 01:40:29,120
Speaker 1: certainly not of the I'm not of the of the

1816
01:40:29,120 --> 01:40:31,320
Speaker 1: mind that like, if someone is asking you to do work,

1817
01:40:31,320 --> 01:40:33,400
Speaker 1: you should be getting paid for it. But if you

1818
01:40:33,439 --> 01:40:37,000
Speaker 1: are trying to if you are trying to like build

1819
01:40:37,040 --> 01:40:39,599
Speaker 1: a life as a creator, the best way to do

1820
01:40:39,640 --> 01:40:41,800
Speaker 1: that creatively is to just make the things that you

1821
01:40:41,840 --> 01:40:45,800
Speaker 1: think are cool and then make like if if other

1822
01:40:45,880 --> 01:40:48,400
Speaker 1: people like it, you make money. Like better things get

1823
01:40:48,479 --> 01:40:51,120
Speaker 1: made than that. That like that that is the way

1824
01:40:51,160 --> 01:40:53,439
Speaker 1: the best art gets made. I think it's a few

1825
01:40:53,479 --> 01:40:56,240
Speaker 1: things going on here because like the way I think,

1826
01:40:56,400 --> 01:40:58,080
Speaker 1: like I think actually the reason why he frames it

1827
01:40:58,120 --> 01:41:00,080
Speaker 1: this way is because he's trying to get back to

1828
01:41:00,240 --> 01:41:03,160
Speaker 1: his idea of freedom. Right he describes like the golden

1829
01:41:03,200 --> 01:41:06,320
Speaker 1: age of the Internet being information flowing freely. He thinks

1830
01:41:06,360 --> 01:41:08,360
Speaker 1: that the blockchain is a new version of that, So

1831
01:41:08,439 --> 01:41:10,759
Speaker 1: that's why he's framing it in this way. The second

1832
01:41:10,760 --> 01:41:14,240
Speaker 1: thing is in terms of artists and creators, um if

1833
01:41:14,280 --> 01:41:16,160
Speaker 1: you think about like yeah, like like the when the

1834
01:41:16,200 --> 01:41:18,840
Speaker 1: early age of what he calls like the of what

1835
01:41:18,840 --> 01:41:20,160
Speaker 1: we we kind of all been refraininged to it. Like

1836
01:41:20,200 --> 01:41:22,240
Speaker 1: the second area when like era of like when social

1837
01:41:22,280 --> 01:41:25,720
Speaker 1: media and like content creation like sites are a thing.

1838
01:41:25,880 --> 01:41:29,240
Speaker 1: It's like, just use YouTube as an example. Um. Because

1839
01:41:29,320 --> 01:41:31,960
Speaker 1: there was a low saturation and content, it was easier

1840
01:41:32,000 --> 01:41:34,599
Speaker 1: for someone to rise up and gain a platform. Let's

1841
01:41:34,600 --> 01:41:36,479
Speaker 1: say someone like Bo Burnham right, who started as just

1842
01:41:36,520 --> 01:41:40,479
Speaker 1: a kid and now is like a very popular comedian. Um.

1843
01:41:40,520 --> 01:41:44,840
Speaker 1: But then YouTube instead of backing creators like that, um,

1844
01:41:45,000 --> 01:41:46,600
Speaker 1: which they did a little bit, but they did not

1845
01:41:46,720 --> 01:41:50,200
Speaker 1: as much. They instead started, uh. Like the thing that

1846
01:41:50,280 --> 01:41:55,080
Speaker 1: happened was like, uh, YouTube really incentivizing sharing like late

1847
01:41:55,160 --> 01:41:58,599
Speaker 1: night content and sharing like like TV clips of TV

1848
01:41:58,720 --> 01:42:02,200
Speaker 1: shows and like using like doing using legacy media on

1849
01:42:02,240 --> 01:42:04,519
Speaker 1: their platform. And that's the things they really backed. That's

1850
01:42:04,520 --> 01:42:06,360
Speaker 1: the things they really pushed into your feet. It's like

1851
01:42:06,560 --> 01:42:09,679
Speaker 1: tonight show clips. UM. So a lot of those original

1852
01:42:09,800 --> 01:42:12,320
Speaker 1: original content creators kind of got left behind and now

1853
01:42:12,600 --> 01:42:14,320
Speaker 1: are now like just their own are running on their

1854
01:42:14,360 --> 01:42:17,000
Speaker 1: own personal brands. Some of them use Patreon for example.

1855
01:42:17,360 --> 01:42:19,679
Speaker 1: But it's also it's impossible to do this now because

1856
01:42:19,720 --> 01:42:22,559
Speaker 1: there's an oversaturation of content. The only thing that's done

1857
01:42:22,560 --> 01:42:25,120
Speaker 1: this recently is TikTok because it was a brand new platform.

1858
01:42:25,280 --> 01:42:27,439
Speaker 1: There was again a new opportunity for a lot of

1859
01:42:27,520 --> 01:42:30,759
Speaker 1: kids to gain to gain a lot of audiences really quickly.

1860
01:42:30,960 --> 01:42:33,679
Speaker 1: I mean, I just I to based on what you're saying,

1861
01:42:33,680 --> 01:42:36,280
Speaker 1: I think that like TikTok is the closest to how

1862
01:42:37,840 --> 01:42:40,880
Speaker 1: cool ship happened on the Internet before everything goes because

1863
01:42:40,920 --> 01:42:43,759
Speaker 1: because it is like, you're not starting from like everyone starts.

1864
01:42:43,760 --> 01:42:45,479
Speaker 1: I guess knowing you could make money, but that was

1865
01:42:45,520 --> 01:42:47,439
Speaker 1: the same way you start because you're like, you're doing

1866
01:42:47,479 --> 01:42:49,760
Speaker 1: a thing, and if that thing takes off, then there's

1867
01:42:49,800 --> 01:42:52,960
Speaker 1: ways to monetize and like that. Yeah, I think that's

1868
01:42:53,000 --> 01:42:55,360
Speaker 1: why probably white bar to white is so popular. Generally,

1869
01:42:55,400 --> 01:42:59,200
Speaker 1: growth on TikTok is pretty Uh, it's pretty organic. It's

1870
01:42:59,200 --> 01:43:02,000
Speaker 1: not it's not it's not boosted by big brands, uh,

1871
01:43:02,120 --> 01:43:04,920
Speaker 1: the same way stuff like YouTube is. And now it's

1872
01:43:04,920 --> 01:43:07,280
Speaker 1: probably gonna be edging in that direction, but it's it's

1873
01:43:07,320 --> 01:43:09,680
Speaker 1: it's it's not, it's it's not there yet. So and

1874
01:43:09,800 --> 01:43:12,320
Speaker 1: his argument in this is to get back to just

1875
01:43:12,360 --> 01:43:15,000
Speaker 1: being like a small content creator getting your stuff seen.

1876
01:43:15,479 --> 01:43:17,880
Speaker 1: His solution to this problem of like YouTube and stuff

1877
01:43:17,920 --> 01:43:21,320
Speaker 1: backing like these large like light night shows and backing

1878
01:43:21,360 --> 01:43:24,240
Speaker 1: like these large like corporately funded things. His solution is

1879
01:43:24,240 --> 01:43:25,960
Speaker 1: that if you're a small. If you're a small content creator,

1880
01:43:26,120 --> 01:43:29,519
Speaker 1: you should sell yourself as an asset to other people

1881
01:43:29,600 --> 01:43:32,120
Speaker 1: on the internet. Right, So, because like his his idea

1882
01:43:32,400 --> 01:43:34,280
Speaker 1: is that he wants to get rid of the gate

1883
01:43:34,320 --> 01:43:36,120
Speaker 1: keepers of the Internet and go back to how the

1884
01:43:36,120 --> 01:43:39,200
Speaker 1: Internet was. But his solution for doing that is just

1885
01:43:39,240 --> 01:43:42,960
Speaker 1: by selling you as a person brand to other people

1886
01:43:43,000 --> 01:43:45,439
Speaker 1: on the internet who are like tech bro investors. So

1887
01:43:45,720 --> 01:43:48,320
Speaker 1: that that's why it's framed this specific way. So I

1888
01:43:48,320 --> 01:43:50,439
Speaker 1: think when we're all like talking about like, why does

1889
01:43:50,439 --> 01:43:52,519
Speaker 1: he describe it this way? What's all this weird stuff

1890
01:43:52,560 --> 01:43:56,040
Speaker 1: going on, it's because that's how he's rationalized in his brain,

1891
01:43:56,520 --> 01:43:59,800
Speaker 1: is for how what he thinks being a free artist is,

1892
01:44:00,320 --> 01:44:01,720
Speaker 1: and he thinks this is going to be the new

1893
01:44:01,760 --> 01:44:06,080
Speaker 1: method to get there. There's another important sort of macro

1894
01:44:06,280 --> 01:44:08,800
Speaker 1: thing to think about this year, which is that the

1895
01:44:08,920 --> 01:44:11,760
Speaker 1: underlying basis of all of this right is the assumption

1896
01:44:11,880 --> 01:44:15,479
Speaker 1: that everyone is an entrepreneur. Is that you know, like

1897
01:44:15,520 --> 01:44:17,559
Speaker 1: every everyone is doing all of their stuff at all

1898
01:44:17,600 --> 01:44:19,240
Speaker 1: times because they want, you know, in order to be

1899
01:44:19,280 --> 01:44:23,280
Speaker 1: a business owner. And this has been like you know, this,

1900
01:44:23,000 --> 01:44:26,240
Speaker 1: this has been the great ideological victory of the right

1901
01:44:26,280 --> 01:44:28,839
Speaker 1: in the last fifty years. Is that they convinced everyone

1902
01:44:29,520 --> 01:44:32,800
Speaker 1: that like every single person is you know, like you're

1903
01:44:32,960 --> 01:44:35,040
Speaker 1: I mean, it's not even temporary embarrassed Millonary syndrome. Is

1904
01:44:35,040 --> 01:44:38,920
Speaker 1: like even people who are working jobs, right, like working

1905
01:44:38,960 --> 01:44:41,960
Speaker 1: wage labor jobs, think of themselves as you know, content creators.

1906
01:44:42,000 --> 01:44:44,439
Speaker 1: And a content creator, you know, is a small business owner.

1907
01:44:44,960 --> 01:44:48,200
Speaker 1: And this has an immensely coercive while I'll a coerse

1908
01:44:48,280 --> 01:44:50,839
Speaker 1: or two, but a corrosive effect on you know, anyone

1909
01:44:50,920 --> 01:44:54,519
Speaker 1: working together to do something because you know, oh, you're

1910
01:44:54,560 --> 01:44:56,479
Speaker 1: not you're not you're not a worker, You're just like

1911
01:44:56,560 --> 01:44:58,559
Speaker 1: you're a content creator. You're you know, you're a small

1912
01:44:58,560 --> 01:45:02,519
Speaker 1: business owner. You're like you know, you what and and

1913
01:45:02,520 --> 01:45:05,599
Speaker 1: and that's you know this, this is a very long

1914
01:45:05,720 --> 01:45:08,920
Speaker 1: running thing that much of incredibly powerful people have been

1915
01:45:08,920 --> 01:45:12,680
Speaker 1: trying to do really since like i mean arguably like

1916
01:45:12,720 --> 01:45:17,000
Speaker 1: the thirties. But the complete success of that and the

1917
01:45:17,040 --> 01:45:19,320
Speaker 1: way that you know, they're they're they're selling exactly the

1918
01:45:19,360 --> 01:45:22,599
Speaker 1: same thing that they were selling in like the eighties,

1919
01:45:22,640 --> 01:45:25,000
Speaker 1: but now it's this like you know, you're trying to

1920
01:45:25,000 --> 01:45:27,120
Speaker 1: get people to do it to themselves. And also they

1921
01:45:27,120 --> 01:45:31,120
Speaker 1: throw all of this like sort of nonsense tech jargon

1922
01:45:31,240 --> 01:45:33,639
Speaker 1: at you to get you to sort of like stop

1923
01:45:33,720 --> 01:45:35,479
Speaker 1: looking at the fact that this is just sort of

1924
01:45:36,439 --> 01:45:39,960
Speaker 1: you know, this is this is this is just the new,

1925
01:45:40,120 --> 01:45:43,479
Speaker 1: even worse version of everyone being a worker who thinks

1926
01:45:43,520 --> 01:45:47,120
Speaker 1: that they're like, you know, also going to be ample

1927
01:45:47,200 --> 01:45:49,800
Speaker 1: this owner someday. Yeah. I don't know, I don't have

1928
01:45:49,800 --> 01:45:52,240
Speaker 1: anything else really to say about it other than this,

1929
01:45:52,320 --> 01:45:55,080
Speaker 1: but like, I mean, this was a good amount to say.

1930
01:45:55,120 --> 01:45:58,400
Speaker 1: I just think this is so. I think it's such

1931
01:45:58,439 --> 01:46:01,080
Speaker 1: an example of kind of the way in which the

1932
01:46:01,120 --> 01:46:03,880
Speaker 1: worst people in the world are trying to steer the internet, um,

1933
01:46:03,920 --> 01:46:07,360
Speaker 1: and by steering the Internet, steer the soul of like

1934
01:46:07,520 --> 01:46:11,200
Speaker 1: the human race. Um. Like this is a vision of

1935
01:46:11,240 --> 01:46:13,479
Speaker 1: the future this guy is sharing and this article that

1936
01:46:13,840 --> 01:46:17,439
Speaker 1: isn't isn't positioning itself as radical, but includes some like

1937
01:46:17,760 --> 01:46:20,360
Speaker 1: deeply radical ideas about how the world should go. And

1938
01:46:20,400 --> 01:46:22,360
Speaker 1: by the way, I should also note that he's also

1939
01:46:22,439 --> 01:46:24,960
Speaker 1: just like blatantly wrong every time he brings up a number,

1940
01:46:25,520 --> 01:46:27,519
Speaker 1: um like he taught he He points out in this

1941
01:46:27,600 --> 01:46:31,599
Speaker 1: article that forty six million Americans own cryptocurrency. The real

1942
01:46:31,680 --> 01:46:33,920
Speaker 1: number is more likely about one million. Kind of it

1943
01:46:33,960 --> 01:46:36,320
Speaker 1: at most, like by every credible. I have no idea

1944
01:46:36,360 --> 01:46:40,960
Speaker 1: where he's getting forty six million Americans own cryptocurrency. And again,

1945
01:46:41,120 --> 01:46:44,360
Speaker 1: the stat just came out, and that's part of his

1946
01:46:44,479 --> 01:46:47,640
Speaker 1: argument is that like, obviously people love the blockchain and

1947
01:46:47,680 --> 01:46:50,040
Speaker 1: these tokens, and like this is this is inevitably going

1948
01:46:50,080 --> 01:46:53,280
Speaker 1: to get more and more popular, um and when again,

1949
01:46:53,320 --> 01:46:55,960
Speaker 1: the reality is that every real thing that's happening on

1950
01:46:56,000 --> 01:46:58,840
Speaker 1: the on the blockchain is pretty much versions of a

1951
01:46:58,880 --> 01:47:01,439
Speaker 1: security scam that the government has just announced they're going

1952
01:47:01,439 --> 01:47:04,680
Speaker 1: to finally start regulating. But yeah, I wanna so that

1953
01:47:04,800 --> 01:47:06,960
Speaker 1: the stet. The study that just came out today was

1954
01:47:07,040 --> 01:47:09,920
Speaker 1: that analysis of six point one million trades of like

1955
01:47:10,240 --> 01:47:12,759
Speaker 1: four point seven million in f T s. It shows

1956
01:47:12,800 --> 01:47:15,120
Speaker 1: that the top ten percent of traders were responsible for

1957
01:47:16,080 --> 01:47:20,000
Speaker 1: of trading um, which again is more evidence that all

1958
01:47:20,000 --> 01:47:23,360
Speaker 1: that's happening is people boosting prices. Also, the average, the

1959
01:47:23,439 --> 01:47:26,360
Speaker 1: vast majority like more n f T sales are for

1960
01:47:26,439 --> 01:47:28,280
Speaker 1: less than two hundred dollars. Some of them are for

1961
01:47:28,360 --> 01:47:31,759
Speaker 1: just pennies. Like what the stuff that you're hearing about

1962
01:47:32,320 --> 01:47:36,920
Speaker 1: is all ridiculous outliers, and its outliers specifically because people

1963
01:47:36,920 --> 01:47:39,160
Speaker 1: are pumping stuff up in order to try to call

1964
01:47:39,160 --> 01:47:42,080
Speaker 1: on someone. Um. And that's the whole basis of this

1965
01:47:42,160 --> 01:47:46,200
Speaker 1: guy's the structural argument, the reason that he's attempting to

1966
01:47:46,280 --> 01:47:50,120
Speaker 1: argue that like there's actually desire here and that this is,

1967
01:47:50,160 --> 01:47:52,439
Speaker 1: in fact, the future of the Internet is based entirely

1968
01:47:52,479 --> 01:47:56,400
Speaker 1: upon like numbers that are either bad or he's or

1969
01:47:56,439 --> 01:48:01,160
Speaker 1: he's deliberately using he's deliberately lying about the numbers, because

1970
01:48:01,160 --> 01:48:04,000
Speaker 1: there is no credible number evidence I've ever heard that

1971
01:48:04,080 --> 01:48:07,720
Speaker 1: forty six million Americans currently owned cryptocurrency or even have

1972
01:48:07,800 --> 01:48:11,200
Speaker 1: ever owned cryptocurrency. Yeah, and I think the other kind

1973
01:48:11,240 --> 01:48:12,920
Speaker 1: of nail on the coffin for this idea, and why

1974
01:48:12,920 --> 01:48:14,559
Speaker 1: I don't think it's going to catch on the same

1975
01:48:14,600 --> 01:48:16,479
Speaker 1: way these guys think it think it does. And this

1976
01:48:16,560 --> 01:48:19,320
Speaker 1: is something he acknowledges in the article is like not

1977
01:48:19,400 --> 01:48:22,400
Speaker 1: a lot of people know how the stockic change works,

1978
01:48:22,400 --> 01:48:24,479
Speaker 1: like very like he he says, I think it's like

1979
01:48:24,520 --> 01:48:26,840
Speaker 1: I don't know, like he I forget that what number

1980
01:48:26,880 --> 01:48:29,320
Speaker 1: he says, but um, but he he says, like not

1981
01:48:29,320 --> 01:48:31,479
Speaker 1: not tons of people actually use or know what the

1982
01:48:31,479 --> 01:48:35,760
Speaker 1: stockic stockic changes. Um. And the reason why Patreon was

1983
01:48:35,800 --> 01:48:38,439
Speaker 1: so successful and why it's so useful for content creators

1984
01:48:38,520 --> 01:48:40,639
Speaker 1: is because it's a very intuitive system. It's very clear

1985
01:48:40,680 --> 01:48:42,840
Speaker 1: how it works, it's clear what you're doing. There's no

1986
01:48:42,880 --> 01:48:45,000
Speaker 1: really questions about where your money is going or what's

1987
01:48:45,040 --> 01:48:47,559
Speaker 1: happening this. I don't think this is ever I don't

1988
01:48:47,560 --> 01:48:49,160
Speaker 1: think this whole personal investment thing is ever going to

1989
01:48:49,200 --> 01:48:52,320
Speaker 1: actually go off because people don't understand what the blockchain

1990
01:48:52,439 --> 01:48:54,800
Speaker 1: is and it's too much work to explain it to them. Um.

1991
01:48:55,320 --> 01:48:57,160
Speaker 1: And just because of how much work it is to

1992
01:48:57,200 --> 01:48:59,599
Speaker 1: wrap your mind around, like, so where is my money going?

1993
01:48:59,800 --> 01:49:01,559
Speaker 1: What do I have to set up? How does that work?

1994
01:49:01,640 --> 01:49:03,479
Speaker 1: That's way too much of a headache. Because in order

1995
01:49:03,479 --> 01:49:05,400
Speaker 1: for this to actually work, you need this to break

1996
01:49:05,479 --> 01:49:07,559
Speaker 1: out of the tech bro bubble or else this is

1997
01:49:07,600 --> 01:49:10,360
Speaker 1: just gonna be this small tech bro thing of people

1998
01:49:10,439 --> 01:49:12,280
Speaker 1: handing over the same one hundred dollars to all their

1999
01:49:12,280 --> 01:49:15,120
Speaker 1: friends in a circle, um, which is what it is currently.

2000
01:49:15,520 --> 01:49:17,719
Speaker 1: And I in order to break out of that circle,

2001
01:49:18,000 --> 01:49:21,120
Speaker 1: they need to get you know, your grandmother to learn

2002
01:49:21,160 --> 01:49:23,920
Speaker 1: what crypto is and how blockchains work. And that's not

2003
01:49:23,920 --> 01:49:26,439
Speaker 1: gonna happen. Um. So I think that is the one

2004
01:49:26,439 --> 01:49:28,360
Speaker 1: other nail in the coffin for this type of idea

2005
01:49:28,960 --> 01:49:31,840
Speaker 1: is like, Patreon is easy, Patreon makes sense. This thing

2006
01:49:32,200 --> 01:49:35,679
Speaker 1: it is not nearly as intuitive for supporting a YouTuber

2007
01:49:35,720 --> 01:49:39,000
Speaker 1: you like, yeah, oh, okay, cool. I actually found evidence

2008
01:49:39,040 --> 01:49:42,920
Speaker 1: on where that forty six million Americans number comes from. Yeah,

2009
01:49:42,960 --> 01:49:45,799
Speaker 1: so basically number one. I found like a fucking crypto

2010
01:49:45,840 --> 01:49:49,519
Speaker 1: news source pointing out that, like when people started tweeting

2011
01:49:49,520 --> 01:49:52,040
Speaker 1: that forty six million Americans is based on a study

2012
01:49:52,040 --> 01:49:53,920
Speaker 1: we'll talk about a second, but like when people started

2013
01:49:53,920 --> 01:49:57,160
Speaker 1: tweeting about this, like the immediate response in the bitcoin

2014
01:49:57,200 --> 01:50:01,360
Speaker 1: subreddit was like, well, that's not fucking possible. Uh, Like

2015
01:50:01,560 --> 01:50:03,840
Speaker 1: one of the people in the bitcoin subred it said,

2016
01:50:03,880 --> 01:50:05,880
Speaker 1: sounds very high. I don't know a single person who

2017
01:50:05,920 --> 01:50:08,240
Speaker 1: owns it. And this says woman, six or seven people

2018
01:50:08,240 --> 01:50:12,799
Speaker 1: own it. Yeah, And and it comes from a study

2019
01:50:12,840 --> 01:50:16,880
Speaker 1: conducted in January by the New York Digital Investment Group

2020
01:50:17,600 --> 01:50:22,000
Speaker 1: surveying a thousand participants with incomes over fifty dollars, so

2021
01:50:23,240 --> 01:50:27,880
Speaker 1: that that seems valid. Wait, they just said it's over

2022
01:50:28,000 --> 01:50:32,240
Speaker 1: fifty This okay, this method, Yeah, this this method. You

2023
01:50:32,240 --> 01:50:34,520
Speaker 1: will get a few like Pew released to studies suggesting

2024
01:50:34,520 --> 01:50:38,640
Speaker 1: that like Americans have used cryptocurrency at some point and

2025
01:50:38,720 --> 01:50:41,559
Speaker 1: like all of what's coming out as kind of sketchy,

2026
01:50:41,640 --> 01:50:44,800
Speaker 1: all of the data, there's like reasons to be kind

2027
01:50:44,800 --> 01:50:47,360
Speaker 1: of unsettled about it. But also like one of the

2028
01:50:47,360 --> 01:50:49,240
Speaker 1: things that you studies showed is that the vast majority

2029
01:50:49,240 --> 01:50:53,960
Speaker 1: of Americans have heard of cryptocurrency, uh, and most haven't

2030
01:50:54,479 --> 01:50:57,080
Speaker 1: used it, Like the vast majority have not chosen to

2031
01:50:57,120 --> 01:51:00,479
Speaker 1: get involved. Like, however accurate you think this is. Like,

2032
01:51:00,520 --> 01:51:03,040
Speaker 1: there's another article coming out that says that came out

2033
01:51:03,040 --> 01:51:05,439
Speaker 1: and I guess May of this year. That's said that's

2034
01:51:05,560 --> 01:51:08,280
Speaker 1: based on a Gemini study, which is Gemini is a

2035
01:51:08,320 --> 01:51:11,240
Speaker 1: crypto exchange that over fifty million Americans are likely to

2036
01:51:11,280 --> 01:51:14,679
Speaker 1: buy crypto in the next year. Um, which doesn't seem

2037
01:51:14,720 --> 01:51:17,880
Speaker 1: to have happened. Uh, Like I I just don't see.

2038
01:51:18,320 --> 01:51:20,840
Speaker 1: There's all sorts of like weird little studies commissioned to

2039
01:51:20,840 --> 01:51:24,880
Speaker 1: buy weird little groups, but it really doesn't. It seems

2040
01:51:24,920 --> 01:51:28,200
Speaker 1: like it's it's again kind of part of the grift.

2041
01:51:28,360 --> 01:51:30,720
Speaker 1: Like I'm not seeing a lot of rigor in any

2042
01:51:30,760 --> 01:51:35,160
Speaker 1: of this. Um anyway, whatever, We've talked enough about this ship.

2043
01:51:35,240 --> 01:51:37,640
Speaker 1: I just I think we all as soon as we

2044
01:51:37,720 --> 01:51:40,080
Speaker 1: read the article, we're so like appalled by it that

2045
01:51:40,240 --> 01:51:42,160
Speaker 1: what we should. Probably we talk about this for forty

2046
01:51:42,240 --> 01:51:53,920
Speaker 1: five minutes. Yeah. I'm Ev Rodsky, author of the New

2047
01:51:54,000 --> 01:51:57,200
Speaker 1: York Times bestseller fair Play and Find Your Unicorn Space,

2048
01:51:57,520 --> 01:52:00,360
Speaker 1: activists on the gender division of labor, a turn and

2049
01:52:00,439 --> 01:52:03,920
Speaker 1: family mediator. And I'm doctor adding A Rutcar, a Harvard

2050
01:52:03,920 --> 01:52:07,000
Speaker 1: physician and medical correspondent with an expertise and the science

2051
01:52:07,040 --> 01:52:11,000
Speaker 1: of stress, resilience, mental health, and burnout. We're so excited

2052
01:52:11,040 --> 01:52:13,880
Speaker 1: to share our podcast Time Out, a production of I

2053
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Speaker 1: Heart Podcasts and Hello Sunshine. We're uncovering why society makes

2054
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Speaker 1: it so hard for women to treat their time with

2055
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Speaker 1: the value it deserves. So take this time out with us.

2056
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Speaker 1: Listen to Time Out, a fair Play podcast on the

2057
01:52:27,520 --> 01:52:31,120
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

2058
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Speaker 1: your podcasts. Raffie is the voice of some of the

2059
01:52:35,560 --> 01:52:41,600
Speaker 1: happiest songs of our generation, Babyga, so who is the

2060
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Speaker 1: man behind Baby Bluga. Every human being wants to feel respected.

2061
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Speaker 1: When we start with young, all good things can grow

2062
01:52:51,200 --> 01:52:54,519
Speaker 1: from there. I'm Chris Garcia, comedian, New Dad and host

2063
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Speaker 1: of Finding Raffie, a new podcast from my Heart Radio

2064
01:52:57,520 --> 01:53:00,679
Speaker 1: and Fatherly. Listen every Tuesday on the I Heart Radio

2065
01:53:00,720 --> 01:53:04,400
Speaker 1: app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Robert

2066
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Speaker 1: sex Reese, host of The Doctor Sex re Show, and

2067
01:53:07,720 --> 01:53:10,880
Speaker 1: every episode I listened to people talk about their sex

2068
01:53:10,880 --> 01:53:14,680
Speaker 1: and intimacy issues, and yes, I despise every minute of it.

2069
01:53:15,120 --> 01:53:19,320
Speaker 1: And she she made mistakes too, everyone at her wedding.

2070
01:53:19,680 --> 01:53:22,519
Speaker 1: But hell is real. We're all trapped here and there's

2071
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Speaker 1: nothing any of us can do about it. So join me,

2072
01:53:25,400 --> 01:53:28,320
Speaker 1: won't you Listen to The Doctor Sex re Show every

2073
01:53:28,360 --> 01:53:31,360
Speaker 1: Tuesday on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast or

2074
01:53:31,400 --> 01:53:40,679
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to It Could Happen Here,

2075
01:53:40,760 --> 01:53:43,960
Speaker 1: a podcast about how society is following apart and about

2076
01:53:43,960 --> 01:53:46,160
Speaker 1: how to put it back together again. I'm your host,

2077
01:53:46,200 --> 01:53:49,200
Speaker 1: Christopher Long and Today and for the next few days,

2078
01:53:50,000 --> 01:53:52,639
Speaker 1: we're doing something a bit different. We're going to take

2079
01:53:52,640 --> 01:53:54,360
Speaker 1: a deep dive to some of the people who got

2080
01:53:54,439 --> 01:53:57,679
Speaker 1: us into the mess we're in today. Now, when we've

2081
01:53:57,680 --> 01:53:59,639
Speaker 1: talked about our enemies and it Could Happen here, we've

2082
01:53:59,680 --> 01:54:03,160
Speaker 1: mostly focus on fascism, and for good reason. But for

2083
01:54:03,240 --> 01:54:05,719
Speaker 1: the next few days we're focusing on a different enemy.

2084
01:54:06,280 --> 01:54:12,440
Speaker 1: Don't worry, the Nazis will show up. That enemy is neoliberalism.

2085
01:54:12,560 --> 01:54:15,360
Speaker 1: Neoliberalism is the single most successful political movement of the

2086
01:54:15,360 --> 01:54:18,800
Speaker 1: twenty twenty For centuries, no other political movement in human

2087
01:54:18,840 --> 01:54:21,439
Speaker 1: history has directly controlled so much of the globe. It

2088
01:54:21,560 --> 01:54:24,920
Speaker 1: is outmaneuvered, outlasted, or simply destroyed every ideology that sought

2089
01:54:24,920 --> 01:54:28,840
Speaker 1: to oppose it, and has reigned virtually unchallenged for fifty years.

2090
01:54:30,240 --> 01:54:33,920
Speaker 1: After exploded on the political scene in Chili, their victory

2091
01:54:33,920 --> 01:54:36,160
Speaker 1: has been so total that even the earthWhile opponents, have

2092
01:54:36,200 --> 01:54:40,200
Speaker 1: adopted its core principles. Margaret Thatcher famously bragged that her

2093
01:54:40,200 --> 01:54:43,680
Speaker 1: proudest accomplishment was creating Tony Blair, basking in the irony

2094
01:54:43,720 --> 01:54:46,560
Speaker 1: that neoliberalism would be implemented across the globe, in large

2095
01:54:46,600 --> 01:54:50,879
Speaker 1: part by labor and socialist parties. Today, even erstwhile communist

2096
01:54:50,880 --> 01:54:54,720
Speaker 1: countries maintained so called special economic zones with the laws

2097
01:54:54,720 --> 01:54:57,200
Speaker 1: of neoliberalism are allowed to run rampant in exchange for

2098
01:54:57,320 --> 01:55:00,680
Speaker 1: GDP increases, and their communist supporters. The West have come

2099
01:55:00,760 --> 01:55:04,040
Speaker 1: to belief that capitalism is a far more powerful engine

2100
01:55:04,040 --> 01:55:07,320
Speaker 1: of economic development and the state planning advocated by their forebearers,

2101
01:55:08,160 --> 01:55:11,200
Speaker 1: thus internalizing the greatest principle of neoliberalism, even as they

2102
01:55:11,200 --> 01:55:14,960
Speaker 1: claim to oppose it. All of this, of course, raises

2103
01:55:14,960 --> 01:55:19,240
Speaker 1: two questions, what actually is neoliberalism and how did it

2104
01:55:19,280 --> 01:55:22,400
Speaker 1: come to rule the world today. We're going to try

2105
01:55:22,440 --> 01:55:24,920
Speaker 1: to answer the first question by looking back at the

2106
01:55:24,960 --> 01:55:29,440
Speaker 1: original neoliberals and examining what they believed, because it's not

2107
01:55:29,480 --> 01:55:32,160
Speaker 1: what you think. There are many places you can begin

2108
01:55:32,200 --> 01:55:35,360
Speaker 1: the story of neoliberalism. I'm choosing to start in France

2109
01:55:35,480 --> 01:55:39,320
Speaker 1: ninety Now, the nineteen thirties are a bad time to

2110
01:55:39,360 --> 01:55:42,120
Speaker 1: be a free trade market liberal. And just to clear

2111
01:55:42,160 --> 01:55:44,840
Speaker 1: this up, early liberal in the European context, which is

2112
01:55:45,080 --> 01:55:47,000
Speaker 1: where a lot of the beginning of the story takes place,

2113
01:55:47,080 --> 01:55:48,400
Speaker 1: does not mean the same thing as it does in

2114
01:55:48,440 --> 01:55:51,960
Speaker 1: the American context. European liberalism up to this point is

2115
01:55:51,960 --> 01:55:55,400
Speaker 1: about free trade markets, individual liberty and rights, etcetera, etcetera.

2116
01:55:55,440 --> 01:55:59,800
Speaker 1: But it's anti state interference. To be somewhat reductive, It's

2117
01:56:00,160 --> 01:56:03,080
Speaker 1: kind of closer to what conservatism is in the US,

2118
01:56:03,160 --> 01:56:06,640
Speaker 1: but it's not identical. So there that in mind. As

2119
01:56:06,640 --> 01:56:10,040
Speaker 1: the story goes on, Dirty sold the rise of fascism,

2120
01:56:10,080 --> 01:56:13,000
Speaker 1: social democracy, and communism, each with his own form of

2121
01:56:13,040 --> 01:56:17,720
Speaker 1: government spending and economic planning, which liberals absolutely detested. Now,

2122
01:56:17,760 --> 01:56:20,400
Speaker 1: the vent and thirties have been full of liberals gathering

2123
01:56:20,400 --> 01:56:21,880
Speaker 1: and try to figure out what to do next. And

2124
01:56:21,920 --> 01:56:25,640
Speaker 1: in ninety seven Walture Littman, an American writer who would

2125
01:56:25,640 --> 01:56:29,200
Speaker 1: become most famous for inventing the term Cold War, wrote

2126
01:56:29,200 --> 01:56:31,520
Speaker 1: a book called an Inquiry into the Principles of the

2127
01:56:31,560 --> 01:56:35,160
Speaker 1: Good Society, which argue that totalitarianism is a product of

2128
01:56:35,200 --> 01:56:37,880
Speaker 1: not having individual private property at the state needs to

2129
01:56:37,880 --> 01:56:40,160
Speaker 1: be limited to a ministering justice and not you know,

2130
01:56:40,400 --> 01:56:43,440
Speaker 1: giving people things that they need. And so a lot

2131
01:56:43,480 --> 01:56:46,160
Speaker 1: of liberals read this and go, oh, cool, we should

2132
01:56:46,240 --> 01:56:48,720
Speaker 1: organize a conference to talk about this book and our ideas.

2133
01:56:48,800 --> 01:56:52,560
Speaker 1: And the product is in Ete thirty Littman Colloquium. Now

2134
01:56:52,640 --> 01:56:54,920
Speaker 1: a bunch of extremely important near liberals show up at

2135
01:56:54,960 --> 01:56:59,920
Speaker 1: this conference, including one Friedrich August von Hayek, Ludwig von Mises,

2136
01:57:00,360 --> 01:57:04,680
Speaker 1: Wilhelm rope Key, and Alexander Rousto, and they start talking

2137
01:57:04,720 --> 01:57:06,760
Speaker 1: about the need for a new kind of liberalism to

2138
01:57:06,800 --> 01:57:11,400
Speaker 1: oppose communism, Keynesianism, fascism, and what they call Manchester or

2139
01:57:11,480 --> 01:57:15,040
Speaker 1: Las Fair liberalism, in which the state didn't defeat at

2140
01:57:15,080 --> 01:57:18,840
Speaker 1: all in political life and let the economy run an autopilot. Now,

2141
01:57:19,160 --> 01:57:22,400
Speaker 1: the German sociologist Alexander Rousta, who we're going to talk

2142
01:57:22,440 --> 01:57:25,520
Speaker 1: about more in a second comes up with the term

2143
01:57:25,560 --> 01:57:28,120
Speaker 1: need of liberalism to define the new set of principles

2144
01:57:28,160 --> 01:57:31,480
Speaker 1: that they're trying to develop, and they think the new

2145
01:57:31,480 --> 01:57:36,000
Speaker 1: liberalism should prioritize the price mechanism, free enterprise, the system

2146
01:57:36,000 --> 01:57:40,840
Speaker 1: of competition, and importantly, a strong and impartial state. Now,

2147
01:57:41,000 --> 01:57:43,760
Speaker 1: this is the origin of new liberalism as a term,

2148
01:57:43,800 --> 01:57:46,600
Speaker 1: and it's important to understand two things from the outset,

2149
01:57:46,680 --> 01:57:48,920
Speaker 1: because the new liberals are going to spend the next

2150
01:57:49,000 --> 01:57:53,280
Speaker 1: fifty years lying about this. One near liberalism favors a

2151
01:57:53,320 --> 01:57:56,440
Speaker 1: strong state to make the market work, and too near

2152
01:57:56,520 --> 01:58:00,520
Speaker 1: liberalism is not the same thing as classical liberalism. Now,

2153
01:58:01,040 --> 01:58:04,280
Speaker 1: new liberals essentially invented the whole I make classic a

2154
01:58:04,280 --> 01:58:06,680
Speaker 1: liberal thing in the fifties. But if you read the

2155
01:58:06,680 --> 01:58:08,520
Speaker 1: original stuff that they wrote, if you if you go

2156
01:58:08,600 --> 01:58:11,000
Speaker 1: back to nties, if you go back to nineteen thrties,

2157
01:58:11,040 --> 01:58:13,200
Speaker 1: and you read what they write, the neo liberals are

2158
01:58:13,200 --> 01:58:15,560
Speaker 1: extremely clear that they are not classical liberals and that

2159
01:58:15,600 --> 01:58:19,120
Speaker 1: in fact their political project is different from the twentieth

2160
01:58:19,160 --> 01:58:22,840
Speaker 1: century nineteenth century liberal project. In which the state is

2161
01:58:22,840 --> 01:58:25,400
Speaker 1: supposed to be a night watchman and not actually interfere

2162
01:58:25,400 --> 01:58:29,240
Speaker 1: in the markets at all. The neoliberals, originally before they

2163
01:58:29,280 --> 01:58:32,320
Speaker 1: you know, start lying about their actual origins, reject this

2164
01:58:32,440 --> 01:58:35,480
Speaker 1: principle and come to believe that in fact, a strong

2165
01:58:35,560 --> 01:58:40,200
Speaker 1: state is necessary to ensure that markets work. So now

2166
01:58:40,240 --> 01:58:43,840
Speaker 1: you have lenar liberalism as a thing. But nothing really

2167
01:58:43,920 --> 01:58:47,600
Speaker 1: happens much until after World War Two because dal were

2168
01:58:47,640 --> 01:58:50,520
Speaker 1: too Almost everyone is just doing state economic planning, and so,

2169
01:58:51,280 --> 01:58:53,200
Speaker 1: you know, all of these people rambling off to the

2170
01:58:53,200 --> 01:58:55,839
Speaker 1: side about how, oh, the market is the most efficient

2171
01:58:55,840 --> 01:58:59,520
Speaker 1: way to plan a system. Nobody listens to them because

2172
01:58:59,640 --> 01:59:01,720
Speaker 1: they're fighting a war, and the way you fight wars

2173
01:59:01,800 --> 01:59:04,680
Speaker 1: is doing state planning. And after a world war to

2174
01:59:04,840 --> 01:59:07,760
Speaker 1: the situation for new liberals is even worse because having

2175
01:59:08,360 --> 01:59:12,840
Speaker 1: gone through the experience of entire society is turning their

2176
01:59:13,040 --> 01:59:17,600
Speaker 1: entire economies and systems into planning agencies in order to

2177
01:59:17,640 --> 01:59:21,240
Speaker 1: you know, mobilize the total war effort. People after the

2178
01:59:21,240 --> 01:59:22,840
Speaker 1: war come back and go, oh, hey, we can do

2179
01:59:22,920 --> 01:59:25,560
Speaker 1: this to other parts of the economy. So this means

2180
01:59:25,600 --> 01:59:27,880
Speaker 1: that everyone and this is not just the communist states,

2181
01:59:27,920 --> 01:59:30,680
Speaker 1: this is you know, this is Britain is doing Kanesianism,

2182
01:59:30,680 --> 01:59:34,960
Speaker 1: They're doing planning, they're doing state welfare programs, and the

2183
01:59:35,040 --> 01:59:38,200
Speaker 1: New Deal is spreading also across the globe. Now, in

2184
01:59:38,280 --> 01:59:40,800
Speaker 1: response to all of this, hik and his allies do

2185
01:59:40,880 --> 01:59:44,960
Speaker 1: two things. The first is found in the Chicago School

2186
01:59:45,000 --> 01:59:49,360
Speaker 1: of Economics, and the second is to assemble the avengers

2187
01:59:49,360 --> 01:59:53,520
Speaker 1: of taking food from children the mont Peleion Society. The

2188
01:59:53,600 --> 01:59:58,000
Speaker 1: mont Peleion Society is the central neoliberal institution, which is

2189
01:59:58,000 --> 02:00:00,160
Speaker 1: a weird thing because in a lot of ways it's

2190
02:00:00,240 --> 02:00:03,440
Speaker 1: essentially just a closeted debate society intended to allow Neiler

2191
02:00:03,440 --> 02:00:07,360
Speaker 1: both to work out their political principles behind closed doors. Now,

2192
02:00:07,880 --> 02:00:10,480
Speaker 1: at this first meeting in n a lot of the

2193
02:00:10,480 --> 02:00:14,560
Speaker 1: people from the Littmann Colloquium are there, but unfortunately some

2194
02:00:14,600 --> 02:00:16,800
Speaker 1: of the French members of the Colloquium and some of

2195
02:00:16,840 --> 02:00:20,840
Speaker 1: the people from Germany had collaborated with the Nazis, so

2196
02:00:21,200 --> 02:00:24,520
Speaker 1: they were out. And this meant that Hiaka to find

2197
02:00:24,560 --> 02:00:27,880
Speaker 1: new people to bring in. And the mont Peleion Society's

2198
02:00:27,920 --> 02:00:30,360
Speaker 1: first meeting is the first time you actually have all

2199
02:00:30,360 --> 02:00:32,600
Speaker 1: three major schools of neo liberal thought in the same

2200
02:00:32,600 --> 02:00:35,680
Speaker 1: place at the same time. Arguing with each other, and

2201
02:00:36,000 --> 02:00:39,080
Speaker 1: they can't agree on shit. The only thing they can

2202
02:00:39,120 --> 02:00:43,600
Speaker 1: actually agree on is to look into more stuff and

2203
02:00:43,840 --> 02:00:46,600
Speaker 1: to get a sense of how far away from modern

2204
02:00:46,720 --> 02:00:49,920
Speaker 1: neoliberalism the arguments that are being had at the Montpellion

2205
02:00:50,040 --> 02:00:54,440
Speaker 1: Society are. The Montpellion Society has only ever once actually

2206
02:00:54,840 --> 02:00:59,200
Speaker 1: released a single statement stating its principles. And this statement

2207
02:00:59,280 --> 02:01:01,040
Speaker 1: was the only thing that be agreed on at the

2208
02:01:01,080 --> 02:01:03,200
Speaker 1: first meeting of the Montpellion Society. And I'm just going

2209
02:01:03,240 --> 02:01:05,919
Speaker 1: to read it. This is what they agreed to research.

2210
02:01:07,120 --> 02:01:10,520
Speaker 1: One the analysis and explanation of the present crisis so

2211
02:01:10,560 --> 02:01:14,480
Speaker 1: as to reflect its essential moral and economic origins. Two

2212
02:01:14,920 --> 02:01:17,720
Speaker 1: the redefinition of the state's functions so as to distinguish

2213
02:01:17,760 --> 02:01:22,240
Speaker 1: more clearly between the totalitarian and liberal order. Three methods

2214
02:01:22,240 --> 02:01:24,680
Speaker 1: of re establishing the rule of law and assuring its

2215
02:01:24,680 --> 02:01:27,440
Speaker 1: developments that individuals and groups are not in a position

2216
02:01:27,440 --> 02:01:30,560
Speaker 1: to encroach upon the freedom of others and private property

2217
02:01:30,640 --> 02:01:33,680
Speaker 1: rights are not allowed to become a basis of predatory power.

2218
02:01:34,800 --> 02:01:39,040
Speaker 1: Four the possibility of establishing minimum standards by means not

2219
02:01:39,120 --> 02:01:43,240
Speaker 1: inimical to initiative and the functioning of the market. Five

2220
02:01:43,480 --> 02:01:46,280
Speaker 1: Methods of combating the misuse of history for the furtherance

2221
02:01:46,320 --> 02:01:50,200
Speaker 1: of creeds hostiles of liberty. Six, the problem of creating

2222
02:01:50,200 --> 02:01:53,760
Speaker 1: an international order conductive to safeguarding of peace and liberty

2223
02:01:53,760 --> 02:01:58,120
Speaker 1: and permitting the establishment of harmonious international economic relations. You know,

2224
02:01:58,280 --> 02:02:00,480
Speaker 1: just by looking at this you can immediate least see

2225
02:02:00,480 --> 02:02:03,600
Speaker 1: signs of how far things are going to move. I mean,

2226
02:02:04,320 --> 02:02:05,680
Speaker 1: you know what one of one of the things that

2227
02:02:05,720 --> 02:02:09,080
Speaker 1: they're talking about is again they're trying to research whether

2228
02:02:09,160 --> 02:02:12,040
Speaker 1: or not it's possible to just give people things without

2229
02:02:12,120 --> 02:02:15,440
Speaker 1: the markets, and it's it's it's not just the sort

2230
02:02:15,440 --> 02:02:17,760
Speaker 1: of left quote unquote wing of the neoliberals who are

2231
02:02:17,800 --> 02:02:21,600
Speaker 1: arguing about this. Hyak In, in probably his most famous book,

2232
02:02:21,600 --> 02:02:23,960
Speaker 1: The Road to Serve Them, i mean explicitly says, yeah,

2233
02:02:24,000 --> 02:02:27,160
Speaker 1: you should just give people food and housing and stuff

2234
02:02:27,200 --> 02:02:31,240
Speaker 1: outside of the market. And you know, like today, if

2235
02:02:31,400 --> 02:02:33,920
Speaker 1: literally anyone who says this will be accused of socialism.

2236
02:02:33,920 --> 02:02:36,000
Speaker 1: This is the neoliberal This is you know, a large

2237
02:02:36,000 --> 02:02:41,400
Speaker 1: part of the neoliberal position in now I've mentioned briefly

2238
02:02:42,120 --> 02:02:45,400
Speaker 1: that there are three schools of neoliberalism, and we're going

2239
02:02:45,440 --> 02:02:47,440
Speaker 1: to spend some time looking at them because people have

2240
02:02:47,560 --> 02:02:51,160
Speaker 1: a tendency to look at neoliberalism and assume that, oh,

2241
02:02:51,280 --> 02:02:54,840
Speaker 1: it's it's it's just the Chicago School of Economics, you know,

2242
02:02:54,880 --> 02:02:58,000
Speaker 1: which is the neo classical schools most familes members Melton Friedman.

2243
02:02:58,280 --> 02:03:01,800
Speaker 1: And it's true that that's Chicago's wool are neoliberals. But

2244
02:03:02,040 --> 02:03:05,800
Speaker 1: and and this is critical, there's other intellectual schools involved

2245
02:03:05,800 --> 02:03:09,560
Speaker 1: in here. And it's not just it's not just economists.

2246
02:03:09,680 --> 02:03:13,400
Speaker 1: Neoliberalism from the beginning is a multi disciplinary international project.

2247
02:03:13,680 --> 02:03:16,040
Speaker 1: You have lawyers, you have political scientists, you have journalists,

2248
02:03:16,040 --> 02:03:20,360
Speaker 1: you have philosophers, you have anthropologists. And the product of

2249
02:03:20,400 --> 02:03:23,120
Speaker 1: this is something is an ideology and a philosophy that

2250
02:03:23,200 --> 02:03:26,800
Speaker 1: is much deeper, much richer, and much more dangerous than

2251
02:03:26,840 --> 02:03:30,000
Speaker 1: just Chicago School alone. The second of the major schools

2252
02:03:30,040 --> 02:03:33,320
Speaker 1: is the Austrian School, which is led by Ludovine Musas

2253
02:03:33,320 --> 02:03:38,240
Speaker 1: and Hyak and maybe most importantly but least well known,

2254
02:03:38,720 --> 02:03:41,960
Speaker 1: the third school that we're actually going to be talking

2255
02:03:41,960 --> 02:03:45,240
Speaker 1: about today is the German Ordo Liberals, led by Alexander Rousteau,

2256
02:03:45,280 --> 02:03:49,760
Speaker 1: who again invented determina liberalism, and Wilheim Ropek, who almost

2257
02:03:49,840 --> 02:03:52,040
Speaker 1: no one has ever heard of, but are incredibly important

2258
02:03:52,640 --> 02:03:55,320
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna I'm gonna insert a disclaimer here before

2259
02:03:55,360 --> 02:03:57,560
Speaker 1: I get yelled at by by nerds. Yes, I'm aware

2260
02:03:57,600 --> 02:03:59,520
Speaker 1: of the public choice theories at the Virginia School. I

2261
02:03:59,560 --> 02:04:01,200
Speaker 1: am also aware of at a group of the Dealer

2262
02:04:01,200 --> 02:04:03,000
Speaker 1: building is called the Geneva School, even though they're just

2263
02:04:03,040 --> 02:04:06,560
Speaker 1: regular or to liberals. And there's also the rump of

2264
02:04:06,560 --> 02:04:09,480
Speaker 1: the neo institutionalists. Um, I don't care about them because

2265
02:04:09,480 --> 02:04:12,000
Speaker 1: they're not irrelevant to this story. Please do not you

2266
02:04:12,240 --> 02:04:16,440
Speaker 1: yell at me on Twitter. Now, these people have wildly

2267
02:04:16,560 --> 02:04:19,840
Speaker 1: divergent beliefs, and so I'm gonna do my best to

2268
02:04:19,880 --> 02:04:23,800
Speaker 1: do one sentence summaries of what these people believe. So

2269
02:04:24,120 --> 02:04:29,120
Speaker 1: the Chicago School of Neo classical Economics, humans are all knowing,

2270
02:04:29,320 --> 02:04:32,680
Speaker 1: calculating gods, rationally optimizing their behavior to get the most

2271
02:04:32,680 --> 02:04:35,720
Speaker 1: out of every single human interaction they engage in to

2272
02:04:35,800 --> 02:04:38,920
Speaker 1: maximize the utility the product of this infinite freedom to

2273
02:04:39,000 --> 02:04:44,280
Speaker 1: choose economic equilibrium. The Austrian school, humans are pig, ignorant

2274
02:04:44,320 --> 02:04:46,760
Speaker 1: fox you know literally nothing and therefore mostly made to

2275
02:04:46,800 --> 02:04:49,480
Speaker 1: bow down to the everag changing disequilibrium of the market,

2276
02:04:49,720 --> 02:04:52,000
Speaker 1: which is the only thing that can actually process information

2277
02:04:53,360 --> 02:04:57,480
Speaker 1: order liberalism. The markets won't create or balance itself because

2278
02:04:57,520 --> 02:05:00,680
Speaker 1: these uncultured proletarian swine keep asking for raises instead of

2279
02:05:00,680 --> 02:05:02,520
Speaker 1: focusing on the magic of the families. So we have

2280
02:05:02,600 --> 02:05:04,600
Speaker 1: to use the state and laws to force people and

2281
02:05:04,640 --> 02:05:07,640
Speaker 1: companies to do competition. And these are obviously some what

2282
02:05:07,720 --> 02:05:11,560
Speaker 1: comical summaries of it, but these are very very different

2283
02:05:12,080 --> 02:05:15,560
Speaker 1: conceptions of what it is to be a human, of

2284
02:05:15,680 --> 02:05:23,600
Speaker 1: whether the market occurs naturally or not, of what the

2285
02:05:23,680 --> 02:05:26,280
Speaker 1: market actually is. Is it a product? Is is it

2286
02:05:26,280 --> 02:05:28,000
Speaker 1: an object in and of itself? Is it a product?

2287
02:05:28,080 --> 02:05:31,200
Speaker 1: Is it just an inevitable product of humans doing whatever

2288
02:05:31,280 --> 02:05:35,360
Speaker 1: humans do? And this is part of the reason why

2289
02:05:35,360 --> 02:05:38,000
Speaker 1: it's always almost impossible to get the original neoliberal s

2290
02:05:38,000 --> 02:05:42,120
Speaker 1: degree into anything. But this is actually one of the

2291
02:05:42,120 --> 02:05:45,760
Speaker 1: strength of the neoliberal project. The project only works because

2292
02:05:45,760 --> 02:05:47,680
Speaker 1: it uses the products of all three branches. You have

2293
02:05:47,720 --> 02:05:50,160
Speaker 1: neo classical attacks on the welfare state, Austrian attacks on

2294
02:05:50,200 --> 02:05:52,640
Speaker 1: sexual planning and order, liberal theories of the state, and

2295
02:05:52,760 --> 02:05:56,440
Speaker 1: sort of cultural on the non economic nature of markets.

2296
02:05:56,560 --> 02:06:00,160
Speaker 1: And you know, when one school essentially fails as an

2297
02:06:00,200 --> 02:06:03,000
Speaker 1: explanation for something, they can jomp to another school and

2298
02:06:03,120 --> 02:06:07,040
Speaker 1: this gives them a very wide range of ability to

2299
02:06:07,160 --> 02:06:11,360
Speaker 1: move between crises and moved between people attacking any of

2300
02:06:11,400 --> 02:06:13,920
Speaker 1: the individual schools because they can simply pull out another

2301
02:06:13,920 --> 02:06:17,080
Speaker 1: set of theories. So I'm going to talk a little

2302
02:06:17,120 --> 02:06:19,200
Speaker 1: bit more about each of the schools, and we're gonna

2303
02:06:19,200 --> 02:06:21,560
Speaker 1: start with the Chicago School because again it's the most famous,

2304
02:06:22,480 --> 02:06:25,120
Speaker 1: and because I think there's a there's another very interesting

2305
02:06:25,120 --> 02:06:31,080
Speaker 1: story here into how the Chicago School change from much origins.

2306
02:06:31,120 --> 02:06:33,520
Speaker 1: So one of the people who was supposed to be

2307
02:06:33,560 --> 02:06:35,840
Speaker 1: a founding member of the Chicago School was a manner

2308
02:06:35,840 --> 02:06:40,000
Speaker 1: in Henry Simmons, and Simmons is unlike the rest of

2309
02:06:40,000 --> 02:06:43,440
Speaker 1: the Chicago School because he actually believes in things. So

2310
02:06:43,560 --> 02:06:47,400
Speaker 1: I'm going to read a couple of quotes from him. Thus,

2311
02:06:47,520 --> 02:06:50,520
Speaker 1: the great enemy of democracy is monopoly in all its forms,

2312
02:06:50,680 --> 02:06:54,080
Speaker 1: gigantic corporate trade associations and other agencies of price control,

2313
02:06:54,560 --> 02:06:58,880
Speaker 1: trade unions, or in general organization and concentration of power

2314
02:06:58,960 --> 02:07:02,960
Speaker 1: within functional classes. Here's another one. A monopolist is an

2315
02:07:02,960 --> 02:07:05,840
Speaker 1: implicit thief because this possession of market power leads the

2316
02:07:05,840 --> 02:07:08,680
Speaker 1: exchange of commodities at prices that do not reflect underlying

2317
02:07:08,720 --> 02:07:12,920
Speaker 1: social scarcities. And you know, you can see this sort

2318
02:07:12,960 --> 02:07:15,240
Speaker 1: of on one of one of the classic neliberal arguments,

2319
02:07:15,240 --> 02:07:17,360
Speaker 1: which is that okay, so you have you have, you

2320
02:07:17,400 --> 02:07:19,920
Speaker 1: have the market, the market is efficient, and trade unions

2321
02:07:19,920 --> 02:07:21,720
Speaker 1: get in the way of the market because the monopoly.

2322
02:07:22,320 --> 02:07:26,200
Speaker 1: But Simmons has what kind of looks like from from

2323
02:07:26,200 --> 02:07:28,920
Speaker 1: our prospective of left wink critique of of monopolies, which is, yeah, okay,

2324
02:07:28,960 --> 02:07:32,120
Speaker 1: giant corp monopolies are thieves because they use their market

2325
02:07:32,120 --> 02:07:38,080
Speaker 1: power to rob people by charging higher prices, and it's

2326
02:07:38,240 --> 02:07:42,160
Speaker 1: it's I genuinely can't say how differently things would have

2327
02:07:42,200 --> 02:07:45,440
Speaker 1: gone if Simmons had actually been around to see the

2328
02:07:45,480 --> 02:07:48,440
Speaker 1: Chicago's go through, because he commits suicide in neteen forty six,

2329
02:07:49,800 --> 02:07:54,040
Speaker 1: and unlike every single other person who was going to

2330
02:07:54,080 --> 02:07:56,960
Speaker 1: be involved with the Chicago School from the beginning until now,

2331
02:07:57,320 --> 02:08:01,400
Speaker 1: Simmons had a genuine commitment to democracy and monopoly principles.

2332
02:08:01,440 --> 02:08:04,200
Speaker 1: But unfortunately he's he dies in next four six and

2333
02:08:04,240 --> 02:08:05,840
Speaker 1: by the by, the Trogol School is really up and

2334
02:08:05,960 --> 02:08:08,600
Speaker 1: running in the fifties. Almost everyone involved in it is

2335
02:08:08,640 --> 02:08:11,720
Speaker 1: overtly pro monopoly, pro cooperation and are you know that

2336
02:08:11,760 --> 02:08:13,640
Speaker 1: they set up an anti trust school. But the thing

2337
02:08:13,640 --> 02:08:15,960
Speaker 1: that the anti trust School is arguing is that monopolies

2338
02:08:16,080 --> 02:08:19,400
Speaker 1: are actually essentially impossible because competition will just take care

2339
02:08:19,400 --> 02:08:22,560
Speaker 1: of everything, and if you try to stop monopolies from happening,

2340
02:08:22,560 --> 02:08:26,080
Speaker 1: it will interfere in the economy. Now, this is this

2341
02:08:26,160 --> 02:08:28,640
Speaker 1: is the line that Milton Friedman takes, and it's also

2342
02:08:28,720 --> 02:08:32,360
Speaker 1: the line of the Vulcar Fund, who are a sort

2343
02:08:32,360 --> 02:08:34,959
Speaker 1: of I guess you could call him a charitable organization,

2344
02:08:35,000 --> 02:08:38,960
Speaker 1: but it's basically a billionaire slush funds that funds the school,

2345
02:08:39,760 --> 02:08:43,200
Speaker 1: and they've had real fights with Simmons because Simmons is like, well, okay,

2346
02:08:43,240 --> 02:08:45,600
Speaker 1: monopolies are bad. At Vulcars like, well, we're a monopoly,

2347
02:08:46,160 --> 02:08:48,280
Speaker 1: so you guys need to actually work for us. And

2348
02:08:48,320 --> 02:08:51,560
Speaker 1: by the time Freedman essentially takes over the Chicago School

2349
02:08:51,680 --> 02:08:55,440
Speaker 1: and uh night take it over, they're not just intellectual mercenaries.

2350
02:08:55,440 --> 02:08:58,160
Speaker 1: They're extremely proud of the fact that they are in

2351
02:08:58,200 --> 02:09:02,480
Speaker 1: fact pure intellectual mercenary acts with absolutely dogsheit economics. If

2352
02:09:02,520 --> 02:09:05,280
Speaker 1: you've ever read just a or you know, if you've

2353
02:09:05,320 --> 02:09:08,680
Speaker 1: ever been forced to take an economics class, you took microeconomics.

2354
02:09:09,080 --> 02:09:12,360
Speaker 1: That's basically just what Chicogoic School believes. It's everyone's a

2355
02:09:12,440 --> 02:09:15,720
Speaker 1: rational actor. Every every human being spends all of their

2356
02:09:15,760 --> 02:09:18,400
Speaker 1: time trying to calculate the maximum utility of anything that

2357
02:09:18,440 --> 02:09:21,240
Speaker 1: they do. Everything is a market. Everything functions by supply

2358
02:09:21,280 --> 02:09:25,840
Speaker 1: and demand. Markets are perfectly efficient if you just let

2359
02:09:25,920 --> 02:09:28,720
Speaker 1: them alone and don't interfere with them. Everything the state

2360
02:09:28,760 --> 02:09:32,000
Speaker 1: does interfered with the markets, et cetera, excepted. This is

2361
02:09:33,440 --> 02:09:35,800
Speaker 1: this is the thing that is sort of classically understood

2362
02:09:35,840 --> 02:09:39,360
Speaker 1: to be neoliberalisms core content. But it's extremely important to

2363
02:09:39,400 --> 02:09:42,520
Speaker 1: understand that these are not the only neoliberals, and in fact,

2364
02:09:42,680 --> 02:09:46,040
Speaker 1: not only are these not the only neoliberals, this set

2365
02:09:46,040 --> 02:09:48,880
Speaker 1: of political principles, to a large extent, is not what

2366
02:09:48,920 --> 02:09:52,120
Speaker 1: the neoliberals actually believe. This kind of stuff is essentially

2367
02:09:52,120 --> 02:09:55,360
Speaker 1: what they feed the roots. Small state tax is bad,

2368
02:09:55,440 --> 02:09:59,040
Speaker 1: regulation bad. Everything is a market and has always been

2369
02:09:59,040 --> 02:10:01,879
Speaker 1: a market, and all human interactions will in nevitably produce markets.

2370
02:10:02,720 --> 02:10:06,200
Speaker 1: But to understand what new liberals actually believe, we need

2371
02:10:06,240 --> 02:10:09,680
Speaker 1: to talk about the order liberals. Now, the two most

2372
02:10:09,720 --> 02:10:13,920
Speaker 1: important order liberals are Wilheim rope K and W. W. Roustau,

2373
02:10:14,120 --> 02:10:17,400
Speaker 1: who were both exilis during the Nazi regime. Now, a

2374
02:10:17,440 --> 02:10:21,080
Speaker 1: lot of the other Order Liberals who stayed in Nazi

2375
02:10:21,120 --> 02:10:23,560
Speaker 1: Germany collaborated with the Nazi regime, which is something that's

2376
02:10:23,640 --> 02:10:25,760
Speaker 1: kind of just overlooked and brush to the side when

2377
02:10:25,760 --> 02:10:28,920
Speaker 1: people are right about them. But grope Key and Rosseau's

2378
02:10:28,920 --> 02:10:32,160
Speaker 1: status as people who you know, fled the Nazis gives

2379
02:10:32,200 --> 02:10:35,040
Speaker 1: them a kind of social cache that their colleagues don't have,

2380
02:10:35,080 --> 02:10:39,240
Speaker 1: and they become extremely important. Now. In some ways, the

2381
02:10:39,360 --> 02:10:42,400
Speaker 1: Order Liberals could be considered the left wing of of

2382
02:10:42,600 --> 02:10:47,839
Speaker 1: the neoliberals. They are significantly less harsh on the welfare

2383
02:10:47,880 --> 02:10:50,240
Speaker 1: state than other forms of neoliberalism, and this is in

2384
02:10:50,360 --> 02:10:53,640
Speaker 1: large part because the Order Liberals are the first new

2385
02:10:53,640 --> 02:10:56,800
Speaker 1: liberals to ever actually hold any power. And I think

2386
02:10:56,800 --> 02:10:58,560
Speaker 1: people most people tend to think that the first time

2387
02:10:58,560 --> 02:11:00,760
Speaker 1: the liberalism was ever implemented was Chile, but that's not

2388
02:11:00,840 --> 02:11:04,280
Speaker 1: really true. The Order Liberals are actually very powerful in

2389
02:11:04,280 --> 02:11:08,440
Speaker 1: in nineteen fifties Germany. Now, the problem they face is

2390
02:11:08,480 --> 02:11:13,040
Speaker 1: that the left is powerful enough in Germany that they

2391
02:11:13,040 --> 02:11:17,720
Speaker 1: cannot actually just completely eliminate the welfare states. So their

2392
02:11:17,760 --> 02:11:21,200
Speaker 1: solution is to create this thing called the social markets,

2393
02:11:21,320 --> 02:11:24,320
Speaker 1: and the Order Liberals get accused of like being crypto

2394
02:11:24,400 --> 02:11:27,000
Speaker 1: socialists by a lot of the other Neil liberals, but

2395
02:11:27,040 --> 02:11:30,280
Speaker 1: that's not really what's going on. The very important thing

2396
02:11:30,280 --> 02:11:32,760
Speaker 1: about the Order Liberals is that, unlike the Chicago School,

2397
02:11:32,920 --> 02:11:37,280
Speaker 1: they're not economists both Rocke and Rousto or social scientists.

2398
02:11:37,320 --> 02:11:42,640
Speaker 1: Russo's a sociologist, and they argue that the state and

2399
02:11:42,680 --> 02:11:46,320
Speaker 1: the market alone cannot maintain market society because market society

2400
02:11:46,320 --> 02:11:51,040
Speaker 1: produces dislocation, you know, produces atomization, It destroys social cohesion,

2401
02:11:51,680 --> 02:11:54,920
Speaker 1: and this means that you need a social, political, and

2402
02:11:54,960 --> 02:11:58,960
Speaker 1: sort of cultural framework to maintain it. And their major

2403
02:11:59,040 --> 02:12:02,880
Speaker 1: focus is on providing stability and security for the working

2404
02:12:02,920 --> 02:12:05,560
Speaker 1: class and a new sense of sort of identity and

2405
02:12:05,600 --> 02:12:08,480
Speaker 1: cultural caotiation, because I think if the working class is

2406
02:12:08,520 --> 02:12:12,440
Speaker 1: essentially left to itself, it will create massification, cultural decay,

2407
02:12:12,720 --> 02:12:15,800
Speaker 1: and eventually the working class return into the proletariat, and

2408
02:12:15,800 --> 02:12:19,040
Speaker 1: that will give these either communism or fascism. The Order

2409
02:12:19,080 --> 02:12:21,520
Speaker 1: liberals believe that there's there's there's a kind of natural

2410
02:12:21,560 --> 02:12:24,640
Speaker 1: hierarchical order that they're trying to preserve. That this is

2411
02:12:25,360 --> 02:12:29,879
Speaker 1: essentially what order means. It means literally order which accords

2412
02:12:29,880 --> 02:12:31,960
Speaker 1: with the essence of humans. This means an order in

2413
02:12:32,000 --> 02:12:36,520
Speaker 1: which proportioned measure and balance exists. Now they have a

2414
02:12:36,560 --> 02:12:38,760
Speaker 1: few ways that they're going to do this rope case

2415
02:12:38,760 --> 02:12:42,560
Speaker 1: obsessed with something called structural policy. And structural policy is

2416
02:12:42,600 --> 02:12:44,400
Speaker 1: basically the argument that the conditions from markets have to

2417
02:12:44,440 --> 02:12:48,600
Speaker 1: be specifically created, and again they're not just economic positions

2418
02:12:48,600 --> 02:12:54,640
Speaker 1: of social conditions. And this is fused with Risteau's vital politique,

2419
02:12:55,000 --> 02:12:58,840
Speaker 1: which is essentially about that the power of anthropological and

2420
02:12:58,920 --> 02:13:02,120
Speaker 1: human aspects of culture and politics be on the forces

2421
02:13:02,120 --> 02:13:05,040
Speaker 1: of production that they think are vital sort of the

2422
02:13:05,040 --> 02:13:08,120
Speaker 1: functioning of society. And part of what they're doing here

2423
02:13:08,200 --> 02:13:10,280
Speaker 1: is that they want to give some people a cultural

2424
02:13:10,320 --> 02:13:13,040
Speaker 1: thing to focus on, so they stopped talking about like

2425
02:13:13,160 --> 02:13:17,040
Speaker 1: wages and welfare and who owns production. But the combination

2426
02:13:17,160 --> 02:13:20,880
Speaker 1: of vital politic and structural policy gets you order liberalism.

2427
02:13:20,920 --> 02:13:23,400
Speaker 1: So nominally they focus on individuals, but really what they're

2428
02:13:23,400 --> 02:13:26,600
Speaker 1: focusing on as the family as this quote unquote decentralized

2429
02:13:26,600 --> 02:13:30,960
Speaker 1: engine of economic capitalism with small businesses and hopefully small

2430
02:13:30,960 --> 02:13:33,440
Speaker 1: family farms as a sort of a political social support

2431
02:13:33,440 --> 02:13:36,520
Speaker 1: base for capitalism, which they're they're they're going to promote

2432
02:13:36,560 --> 02:13:39,240
Speaker 1: and set against the radicalism of the sort of industrial proletariat.

2433
02:13:41,360 --> 02:13:43,960
Speaker 1: And this this sort of middle class that they're aspiring

2434
02:13:43,960 --> 02:13:46,120
Speaker 1: to build is extremely important for a number of reasons.

2435
02:13:46,160 --> 02:13:49,240
Speaker 1: Partially is a way to diffuse working class tension, Partially

2436
02:13:49,280 --> 02:13:51,400
Speaker 1: as a way to sort of offers work or something

2437
02:13:51,520 --> 02:13:54,280
Speaker 1: inspired to and partly as a way to fuse the

2438
02:13:54,320 --> 02:13:58,800
Speaker 1: sort of traditional natural hierarchy with conceptions and meritocracy. Now

2439
02:13:59,640 --> 02:14:05,080
Speaker 1: group in particular also begins to look for systems outside

2440
02:14:05,080 --> 02:14:08,880
Speaker 1: of just the democratic state to sort of create this

2441
02:14:09,000 --> 02:14:13,320
Speaker 1: legal apparatus that the neoliberals want to use to impose markets.

2442
02:14:13,520 --> 02:14:17,960
Speaker 1: And this is extremely important because a lot of where

2443
02:14:18,000 --> 02:14:20,959
Speaker 1: neoliberalism whys are coming from is not from national governments.

2444
02:14:21,040 --> 02:14:23,280
Speaker 1: It's from the sort of international bureaucracy. It's from the

2445
02:14:23,280 --> 02:14:25,240
Speaker 1: I m F. It's from the World Bank, it's from

2446
02:14:25,640 --> 02:14:30,200
Speaker 1: the World Trade Organization. And those groups are controlled by

2447
02:14:30,280 --> 02:14:33,120
Speaker 1: by neoliberal lawyers. And Rock is the person who essentially

2448
02:14:33,120 --> 02:14:37,280
Speaker 1: first has this idea. Now, the goal of using these

2449
02:14:37,280 --> 02:14:40,640
Speaker 1: international legal institutions as a way of creating law, the

2450
02:14:40,720 --> 02:14:43,440
Speaker 1: laws to sort of enforce neoliberalism, is using it as

2451
02:14:43,480 --> 02:14:45,320
Speaker 1: a way to sort of get around democracy. And I'm

2452
02:14:45,320 --> 02:14:50,240
Speaker 1: going to read this quote from Rock, because oh boy,

2453
02:14:50,640 --> 02:14:53,720
Speaker 1: does he absolutely not believe in freedom and democracy and

2454
02:14:53,760 --> 02:14:57,919
Speaker 1: the way that he and everyone else talks about publicly.

2455
02:14:58,800 --> 02:15:01,680
Speaker 1: It is possible that in opinion of the strong state,

2456
02:15:02,120 --> 02:15:08,040
Speaker 1: I am even more fascist, fascististure than you yourself, because

2457
02:15:08,080 --> 02:15:11,080
Speaker 1: I would indeed like to see all economic policy decisions

2458
02:15:11,120 --> 02:15:14,280
Speaker 1: concentrated in the hand of a fully independent and vigorous state,

2459
02:15:14,320 --> 02:15:18,000
Speaker 1: weakened by no pluralist authorities of a corporative kind. I

2460
02:15:18,040 --> 02:15:21,080
Speaker 1: see the strength of the state in the intensity, not extensiveness,

2461
02:15:21,120 --> 02:15:24,920
Speaker 1: of its economic policies. How the constitutional legal structure of

2462
02:15:24,920 --> 02:15:27,160
Speaker 1: such a state should be designed as a question in

2463
02:15:27,200 --> 02:15:30,000
Speaker 1: and of itself, for which I have no patent receipt

2464
02:15:30,000 --> 02:15:33,839
Speaker 1: to offer. I share your opinion that the old formulas

2465
02:15:33,880 --> 02:15:37,640
Speaker 1: of parliamentary democracy have proven themselves useless. People must get

2466
02:15:37,720 --> 02:15:39,680
Speaker 1: used to the fact that there is also a presidential

2467
02:15:39,720 --> 02:15:46,000
Speaker 1: authoritarian even yes, horrible thing to say, dictatorial democracy. So

2468
02:15:46,360 --> 02:15:49,160
Speaker 1: what he's saying there is that he's he's he's he's

2469
02:15:49,320 --> 02:15:50,960
Speaker 1: sending a letter to one of you his friends, and

2470
02:15:51,000 --> 02:15:53,720
Speaker 1: he's going, yeah, I'm I'm even more fascist than you are.

2471
02:15:53,800 --> 02:15:57,280
Speaker 1: I think that democracy is actually a threat to the market,

2472
02:15:57,720 --> 02:16:00,600
Speaker 1: and that in order to avoid authoritarian democracy, we should

2473
02:16:00,600 --> 02:16:03,480
Speaker 1: in fact, concentrate all economic decision making power in a

2474
02:16:03,600 --> 02:16:06,040
Speaker 1: in the hands of a narrow elite in a strong state,

2475
02:16:06,640 --> 02:16:09,000
Speaker 1: which is, you know, the opposite of everything that near

2476
02:16:09,040 --> 02:16:12,760
Speaker 1: liberals open the claim to be supporting, but behind closed doors.

2477
02:16:13,160 --> 02:16:15,040
Speaker 1: And we will get into more of this in a second.

2478
02:16:15,200 --> 02:16:19,920
Speaker 1: This is what they actually believe. Now. Rok is somewhat

2479
02:16:20,000 --> 02:16:22,760
Speaker 1: unique among neo liberals in that he is racist by

2480
02:16:22,800 --> 02:16:27,520
Speaker 1: neoliberal standards. He's just enormously incredibly racist. So for example,

2481
02:16:27,560 --> 02:16:32,640
Speaker 1: he's he's a massive apartheid dude. And again I need

2482
02:16:32,640 --> 02:16:35,039
Speaker 1: to point this out. Ka is one of the things,

2483
02:16:35,040 --> 02:16:36,840
Speaker 1: is one of the most important neoliberals. He's one of

2484
02:16:36,879 --> 02:16:39,600
Speaker 1: the founding members of the Mompellion Society, although he gets

2485
02:16:40,040 --> 02:16:42,879
Speaker 1: kicked out for well, he eventually leaves because of some

2486
02:16:43,440 --> 02:16:47,400
Speaker 1: disputes he as with Hyak. But you know, I'm gonna

2487
02:16:47,400 --> 02:16:49,600
Speaker 1: read some of the things that he says about South

2488
02:16:49,640 --> 02:16:53,840
Speaker 1: Africa because they're horrible. Quote the South African negro is

2489
02:16:53,879 --> 02:16:56,320
Speaker 1: not only a man of an utterly different race, but

2490
02:16:56,480 --> 02:16:59,280
Speaker 1: at the same time stems from a completely different type

2491
02:16:59,280 --> 02:17:03,240
Speaker 1: and level of realization. He also calls ending apartheid quote

2492
02:17:03,360 --> 02:17:06,840
Speaker 1: national suicide. And you know, so she starts saying this stuff,

2493
02:17:06,879 --> 02:17:09,480
Speaker 1: and the other neoliberals are like, dude, what the fuck?

2494
02:17:09,840 --> 02:17:11,920
Speaker 1: So that the o liberal he needs newspaper like he

2495
02:17:11,959 --> 02:17:14,800
Speaker 1: wrote for for thirty years, which is like what's and

2496
02:17:14,800 --> 02:17:18,120
Speaker 1: published a bunch of students going stop this. This is

2497
02:17:18,920 --> 02:17:21,640
Speaker 1: you cannot seriously be supporting a parteid like this. And

2498
02:17:21,800 --> 02:17:24,000
Speaker 1: his response in the newspaper is called the n ZZ

2499
02:17:24,120 --> 02:17:27,000
Speaker 1: and his response is quote these n z Z near

2500
02:17:27,360 --> 02:17:29,920
Speaker 1: intellectuals will not be satisfied until they let a real

2501
02:17:30,000 --> 02:17:33,560
Speaker 1: cannibals speak. Now Roque is one of his friends, another

2502
02:17:33,640 --> 02:17:37,960
Speaker 1: MPs member named Hundled. So Hayak looks at ropek support

2503
02:17:38,000 --> 02:17:40,320
Speaker 1: for apartheid and is like what the fuck? Like no,

2504
02:17:40,480 --> 02:17:44,280
Speaker 1: absolutely not, Like this is horrible. Why why are you

2505
02:17:44,320 --> 02:17:46,400
Speaker 1: doing this? You know? To too high? X credit that

2506
02:17:46,480 --> 02:17:47,840
Speaker 1: this This is the extent of the credit I will

2507
02:17:47,840 --> 02:17:51,280
Speaker 1: give Hiek in this episode, is that he looks at

2508
02:17:51,280 --> 02:17:53,920
Speaker 1: just the open overt racism of Rocaine is like no.

2509
02:17:54,800 --> 02:17:59,959
Speaker 1: And when when he does this Roque's friends Hundled said,

2510
02:18:00,040 --> 02:18:03,240
Speaker 1: is that Hyatt quote now advocates one man, one vote

2511
02:18:03,240 --> 02:18:07,080
Speaker 1: in race mixing. Now, you can see a lot of

2512
02:18:07,080 --> 02:18:11,680
Speaker 1: things here about okay that are extremely scary. And one

2513
02:18:11,760 --> 02:18:15,480
Speaker 1: of those things is that the language that she's speaking

2514
02:18:15,720 --> 02:18:21,640
Speaker 1: this uh, the West is committing national suicide, uh, clash

2515
02:18:21,640 --> 02:18:26,160
Speaker 1: of civilizations, race war stuff. You know, this is this

2516
02:18:26,200 --> 02:18:30,000
Speaker 1: is essentially the the I mean literally, the national suicide

2517
02:18:30,000 --> 02:18:32,400
Speaker 1: thing is what white nationalists say today. And Ropek is

2518
02:18:32,440 --> 02:18:34,039
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways of right nationalist. He's just

2519
02:18:34,040 --> 02:18:39,359
Speaker 1: sort of a German one. But what's what's really scary

2520
02:18:39,720 --> 02:18:43,800
Speaker 1: about rope Ka is that she's not sort of bound

2521
02:18:43,959 --> 02:18:45,959
Speaker 1: by by the sort of strictures of of of a

2522
02:18:45,959 --> 02:18:48,600
Speaker 1: neo classic cogo neo classical economists. For example, he won't

2523
02:18:48,600 --> 02:18:51,720
Speaker 1: propose that like the dating market, like like dating should

2524
02:18:51,720 --> 02:18:53,640
Speaker 1: be on market, and that rich like men should be

2525
02:18:53,640 --> 02:18:57,760
Speaker 1: able to like I go on an app and like

2526
02:18:57,760 --> 02:19:00,520
Speaker 1: like every every every single time of person gets into

2527
02:19:00,560 --> 02:19:02,600
Speaker 1: a relationship, it should just be entirely based on market

2528
02:19:02,640 --> 02:19:05,560
Speaker 1: exchange and stuff like that, because you know, he doesn't

2529
02:19:05,600 --> 02:19:07,560
Speaker 1: think like an economist. He thinks about cultural factors, he

2530
02:19:07,600 --> 02:19:13,600
Speaker 1: thinks about sort of social factors. But he also he's

2531
02:19:13,640 --> 02:19:16,480
Speaker 1: cracked the code for how neliberalism is going to be implemented.

2532
02:19:16,520 --> 02:19:20,840
Speaker 1: The way you do neoliberalism is near liberalism plus racism

2533
02:19:20,879 --> 02:19:24,879
Speaker 1: and he realizes that you need you know, neoliberalisms, actual

2534
02:19:25,040 --> 02:19:31,520
Speaker 1: sort of policies right will cause atomization, will cause social dislocation,

2535
02:19:31,560 --> 02:19:35,480
Speaker 1: will cause that the existing social structures to society sort

2536
02:19:35,520 --> 02:19:37,959
Speaker 1: of implode. And he realizes that in order to get

2537
02:19:37,959 --> 02:19:39,720
Speaker 1: this to work, you need you need a spiritual base,

2538
02:19:39,840 --> 02:19:43,400
Speaker 1: You need some kind of new thing that you can

2539
02:19:43,520 --> 02:19:45,760
Speaker 1: use to to to sort of bring all these people together.

2540
02:19:46,640 --> 02:19:52,360
Speaker 1: And he picks Catholicism, which doesn't work because I mean,

2541
02:19:52,360 --> 02:19:54,840
Speaker 1: there's never reason for this, but you know, partially it's

2542
02:19:54,879 --> 02:19:58,320
Speaker 1: too early. Partially it's because he picks Catholicism and not evangelicalism.

2543
02:19:58,360 --> 02:20:00,840
Speaker 1: But this is how the new liberals are eventually going

2544
02:20:00,879 --> 02:20:03,520
Speaker 1: to take power by you know, aligning themselves with the

2545
02:20:03,560 --> 02:20:06,280
Speaker 1: evangelicals who promised to solve the atomization they're creating with

2546
02:20:06,320 --> 02:20:10,680
Speaker 1: you know, religion and family in the patriarchy. And he

2547
02:20:10,840 --> 02:20:16,680
Speaker 1: figures this out in like the sixties, but was just

2548
02:20:16,720 --> 02:20:18,480
Speaker 1: you know, like twenty years before the rest of the

2549
02:20:18,600 --> 02:20:23,600
Speaker 1: levels figured out. Now there's the he also, Okay, has

2550
02:20:23,640 --> 02:20:25,480
Speaker 1: like a bunch of very similar stuff that he thinks

2551
02:20:25,480 --> 02:20:30,600
Speaker 1: about this about Rhodesia, but interestingly, he has more support

2552
02:20:30,680 --> 02:20:33,120
Speaker 1: for his positions on Rhodesia than he does for his

2553
02:20:33,160 --> 02:20:36,119
Speaker 1: positions in South Africa. And now I'm gonna we're gonna

2554
02:20:36,200 --> 02:20:38,480
Speaker 1: jump back to Chicago School. We're gonna read some Milton

2555
02:20:38,560 --> 02:20:44,480
Speaker 1: Friedman stuff about Rhodesia, because dear God, quote majority rule

2556
02:20:44,560 --> 02:20:47,880
Speaker 1: for Rhodesia today is a euphemism for a black minority government,

2557
02:20:48,240 --> 02:20:50,920
Speaker 1: which would almost surely mean both the eviction or exodus

2558
02:20:50,920 --> 02:20:53,840
Speaker 1: of most of the whites and also a jurastically lower

2559
02:20:53,959 --> 02:20:57,160
Speaker 1: living level and opportunity for the black masses of Rhodesia.

2560
02:20:57,760 --> 02:21:01,039
Speaker 1: Here's another one where he's describing this system of one person,

2561
02:21:01,160 --> 02:21:05,000
Speaker 1: one vote, quote, a system of highly weighted voting in

2562
02:21:05,000 --> 02:21:08,000
Speaker 1: which special interests of far greater role to play than

2563
02:21:08,040 --> 02:21:11,680
Speaker 1: does the general interest. Yeah, so that's the decryption of

2564
02:21:11,720 --> 02:21:15,800
Speaker 1: what democracy is. In contrast, he thinks the market economy

2565
02:21:15,879 --> 02:21:21,200
Speaker 1: is quote a system of effective proportional representation. Now Freedman

2566
02:21:21,320 --> 02:21:24,359
Speaker 1: also thinks that, you know, so, so there's there's a blockade,

2567
02:21:24,560 --> 02:21:29,160
Speaker 1: like an economic blockade of Rhodesia going on because their Rhodesia,

2568
02:21:29,280 --> 02:21:33,240
Speaker 1: and they are maybe the worst people ever. That's plic

2569
02:21:34,480 --> 02:21:37,039
Speaker 1: only only in bild exaggeration. Yeah, it's just you know,

2570
02:21:37,200 --> 02:21:42,320
Speaker 1: absolutely fanatical, like what the promises government. And Freedman also

2571
02:21:42,360 --> 02:21:45,480
Speaker 1: calls the isolation of Rhodesia quote the suicide of the West.

2572
02:21:46,800 --> 02:21:51,440
Speaker 1: And you know he's doing this on racial lines, but

2573
02:21:51,640 --> 02:21:57,080
Speaker 1: he's also doing this along the lines of this argument

2574
02:21:57,160 --> 02:22:01,040
Speaker 1: that democracy itself is actually bad, and this is the

2575
02:22:01,040 --> 02:22:04,160
Speaker 1: place that he can express it because you know, he

2576
02:22:04,240 --> 02:22:07,039
Speaker 1: can leverage racism to get away with it. And I'm

2577
02:22:07,040 --> 02:22:11,480
Speaker 1: going to read another freedoman quote because I think it's

2578
02:22:11,520 --> 02:22:15,920
Speaker 1: it's important to understand what the neoliberals actually think about democracy. Quote.

2579
02:22:16,240 --> 02:22:19,320
Speaker 1: This was sometimes admitted by members of Mount Pelion in public,

2580
02:22:19,680 --> 02:22:23,000
Speaker 1: but only when they felt that their program was in

2581
02:22:23,080 --> 02:22:25,840
Speaker 1: the sense, let's be clear, I don't believe in democracy

2582
02:22:25,840 --> 02:22:28,640
Speaker 1: in one sense. You don't believe in democracy. Nobody believes

2583
02:22:28,640 --> 02:22:31,520
Speaker 1: in democracy. You will find it hard to find anybody

2584
02:22:31,520 --> 02:22:34,200
Speaker 1: who will say that if democracy is interpreted as a

2585
02:22:34,240 --> 02:22:36,760
Speaker 1: majority rule, you will find it hard to find anybody

2586
02:22:36,760 --> 02:22:40,480
Speaker 1: who will say that of the people believe the other

2587
02:22:41,360 --> 02:22:44,400
Speaker 1: pcent of people should be shot, that's an appropriate exercise

2588
02:22:44,440 --> 02:22:47,240
Speaker 1: of democracy. But I believe is not a democracy but

2589
02:22:47,280 --> 02:22:50,480
Speaker 1: an individual freedom in a society in which individuals corroperate

2590
02:22:50,520 --> 02:22:54,119
Speaker 1: with one another. So he's he's making a sort of

2591
02:22:54,320 --> 02:22:56,959
Speaker 1: what's in some ways a kind of anarcristy argument against democracy,

2592
02:22:57,040 --> 02:22:59,000
Speaker 1: which is that like, yeah, okay, so if you interpret

2593
02:22:59,040 --> 02:23:01,240
Speaker 1: democracy is premature at the rule that a majority can

2594
02:23:01,240 --> 02:23:04,400
Speaker 1: just do a terrible thing the minority. But you know

2595
02:23:04,440 --> 02:23:06,840
Speaker 1: what the neo lipperals actually mean by this is that

2596
02:23:08,280 --> 02:23:11,160
Speaker 1: of the population could, for example, I don't know, take

2597
02:23:11,280 --> 02:23:14,080
Speaker 1: money from the rich small part of the of the

2598
02:23:14,080 --> 02:23:17,879
Speaker 1: population and distributed around, and they think that is totalitarianism,

2599
02:23:18,560 --> 02:23:20,440
Speaker 1: and in order to stop that from happening, they are

2600
02:23:20,520 --> 02:23:25,000
Speaker 1: in fact absolutely imperfectly willing to just back dictatorships. And

2601
02:23:25,280 --> 02:23:27,120
Speaker 1: you know that's in essence what they what they what

2602
02:23:27,200 --> 02:23:30,959
Speaker 1: they actually want is a state, the sole function of

2603
02:23:31,000 --> 02:23:33,480
Speaker 1: which essentially is to ensure that nobody ever does this.

2604
02:23:33,520 --> 02:23:35,440
Speaker 1: And you know, if you can do this instead of

2605
02:23:35,440 --> 02:23:39,520
Speaker 1: a democratic framework, fine, but if you can't, well, I

2606
02:23:39,560 --> 02:23:42,480
Speaker 1: don't know, it's time for a coup. We're gonna turn

2607
02:23:42,560 --> 02:23:45,120
Speaker 1: to the two Hyak in the Austrians, because Hyak also

2608
02:23:45,240 --> 02:23:48,160
Speaker 1: is known as this sort of like as a libertarian,

2609
02:23:48,200 --> 02:23:52,199
Speaker 1: as a person who sort of believes in spontaneous order

2610
02:23:52,240 --> 02:23:55,320
Speaker 1: and like thinks that you should you should only have

2611
02:23:55,360 --> 02:24:01,160
Speaker 1: sort of small, decentralized political institutions. Uh. And so we're

2612
02:24:01,200 --> 02:24:07,120
Speaker 1: gonna watch Hyak quote a bunch of stuff from and

2613
02:24:07,200 --> 02:24:10,080
Speaker 1: agree with a bunch of stuff from Carl Schmidt, which

2614
02:24:10,120 --> 02:24:14,360
Speaker 1: is again incredible because Hyak elsewhere described Schmidt as quote, uh,

2615
02:24:14,440 --> 02:24:18,760
Speaker 1: the Nazis chief jurist, which is true. But here here

2616
02:24:18,800 --> 02:24:22,120
Speaker 1: are some other things that Hyak has said about Karl Schmidt. Quote.

2617
02:24:22,400 --> 02:24:25,200
Speaker 1: The weakness of the governments of an omnipotent democracy was

2618
02:24:25,280 --> 02:24:28,400
Speaker 1: very clearly seen by the extraordinary German student of politics,

2619
02:24:28,520 --> 02:24:32,359
Speaker 1: Carl Schmidt, who in the nineteen twenties probably understood the

2620
02:24:32,440 --> 02:24:35,240
Speaker 1: character of the developing form of government better than most people.

2621
02:24:36,320 --> 02:24:38,160
Speaker 1: And you know, Hyak believes a lot of the same

2622
02:24:38,160 --> 02:24:39,960
Speaker 1: things that Schmick does. So you know, one of them

2623
02:24:40,440 --> 02:24:42,920
Speaker 1: things that Schmidt is like big on is that liberalism

2624
02:24:42,920 --> 02:24:46,200
Speaker 1: and democracy are opposite things. And Hyak also believes this.

2625
02:24:47,560 --> 02:24:49,440
Speaker 1: And okay, so so I'm gonna read I'm gonna read

2626
02:24:49,480 --> 02:24:51,120
Speaker 1: some Schmitt and the we're gonna read some Hyak, and

2627
02:24:51,160 --> 02:24:53,840
Speaker 1: they're gonna be saying the same thing. So here, Schmidt,

2628
02:24:54,040 --> 02:24:57,200
Speaker 1: only a strong state can preserve and enhance a free markets.

2629
02:24:57,320 --> 02:25:00,720
Speaker 1: Only a strong state can generate generate genuine d centralization

2630
02:25:00,720 --> 02:25:05,160
Speaker 1: and bring about free and autonomous domains. Here's Hyak. If

2631
02:25:05,200 --> 02:25:08,480
Speaker 1: we proceed on the assumption that only the exercise this

2632
02:25:08,640 --> 02:25:11,920
Speaker 1: is of freedom that the majority will are important, we

2633
02:25:11,959 --> 02:25:14,680
Speaker 1: would be certain to create a stadiant society with all

2634
02:25:14,680 --> 02:25:19,200
Speaker 1: the characteristics of un freedom. So what Hi what Hyak? Yeah,

2635
02:25:19,280 --> 02:25:21,920
Speaker 1: Schmidt is saying that only a strong state can support

2636
02:25:21,959 --> 02:25:24,440
Speaker 1: a free market and uncentralization. Hyak is saying if you

2637
02:25:24,520 --> 02:25:29,840
Speaker 1: let a democracy exist that has majority rule, it will

2638
02:25:29,959 --> 02:25:34,440
Speaker 1: create un freedom. Now we will get into this more

2639
02:25:34,480 --> 02:25:37,680
Speaker 1: when we talk about like Chile, because oh boy, is

2640
02:25:37,680 --> 02:25:40,520
Speaker 1: there some other ship that Hiak cassity with that? But

2641
02:25:41,360 --> 02:25:43,840
Speaker 1: most neoliberals hate democracy, no about it. What they say

2642
02:25:43,879 --> 02:25:46,240
Speaker 1: in public, and and this is the other important thing here,

2643
02:25:46,320 --> 02:25:49,720
Speaker 1: neo liberals lie, they like constantly. They lie to the

2644
02:25:49,760 --> 02:25:52,439
Speaker 1: point where sorting out their actual beliefs becomes almost impossible,

2645
02:25:52,480 --> 02:25:55,640
Speaker 1: and even their intellectual enemies believe the lies that they tell. Well,

2646
02:25:55,640 --> 02:25:57,960
Speaker 1: most people think the neo libbals believe is that, you know,

2647
02:25:58,000 --> 02:26:00,480
Speaker 1: they want a small government in liberty and un regulated

2648
02:26:00,560 --> 02:26:03,680
Speaker 1: market that will occur naturally through spontaneous order, because it's

2649
02:26:03,760 --> 02:26:06,160
Speaker 1: human nature to what the truck and barter and rationally

2650
02:26:06,160 --> 02:26:09,600
Speaker 1: calculate things, and the neoliberals don't believe any of this.

2651
02:26:09,600 --> 02:26:11,000
Speaker 1: This is just what they tell to the groups. What

2652
02:26:11,240 --> 02:26:14,400
Speaker 1: they actually want is a large and powerful surveillance in

2653
02:26:14,520 --> 02:26:17,480
Speaker 1: legal state, in a massive bureaucracy to enforce essentially pro

2654
02:26:17,560 --> 02:26:21,879
Speaker 1: corporate policies. At gunpoint, um, I'm gonna read close up

2655
02:26:21,879 --> 02:26:26,240
Speaker 1: this episode by by reading a list of things that

2656
02:26:26,320 --> 02:26:29,760
Speaker 1: Philip Morowski is an economical story to studies neoliberalism, whose

2657
02:26:29,800 --> 02:26:33,400
Speaker 1: work I've used a lot for for these episodes, wrote

2658
02:26:33,440 --> 02:26:36,720
Speaker 1: about the the sort of the the sort of eleven

2659
02:26:36,720 --> 02:26:41,320
Speaker 1: principles of what new liberals actually believe. One. Free markets

2660
02:26:41,320 --> 02:26:44,080
Speaker 1: do not occur naturally. They must be actively constructed through

2661
02:26:44,080 --> 02:26:48,080
Speaker 1: political organizing too. The market is an information processor and

2662
02:26:48,240 --> 02:26:51,200
Speaker 1: the most efficient one possible, more efficient than any government

2663
02:26:51,280 --> 02:26:53,959
Speaker 1: or any single human being could be. Truth can only

2664
02:26:54,000 --> 02:26:57,840
Speaker 1: be validated by the market. Three. Market society is, and

2665
02:26:57,879 --> 02:27:00,879
Speaker 1: therefore should be, the natural and inexorable date of human kind.

2666
02:27:01,240 --> 02:27:03,720
Speaker 1: The political goal of neoliberals is not to destroy this date,

2667
02:27:03,720 --> 02:27:05,640
Speaker 1: but to take control of it and to redefine its

2668
02:27:05,640 --> 02:27:07,880
Speaker 1: structure and function in order to create and maintain the

2669
02:27:07,959 --> 02:27:13,000
Speaker 1: market friendly culture. Five. There is no contradiction between public politics,

2670
02:27:13,000 --> 02:27:16,800
Speaker 1: citizen and private market, entrepreneur consumer, because the latter does

2671
02:27:17,000 --> 02:27:20,879
Speaker 1: and should eclipse the former. Six. The most important virtue,

2672
02:27:21,240 --> 02:27:25,080
Speaker 1: more important then justice or anything else, is freedom, defined

2673
02:27:25,320 --> 02:27:29,560
Speaker 1: negatively as freedom to choose, most importantly defined as the

2674
02:27:29,600 --> 02:27:32,880
Speaker 1: freedom to acquiesce to the imperatives of the market. Seven.

2675
02:27:33,120 --> 02:27:36,240
Speaker 1: Capital has a natural right to flow freely across national borders.

2676
02:27:36,520 --> 02:27:40,240
Speaker 1: A inequality of resources, income, wealth, and even political rights

2677
02:27:40,360 --> 02:27:43,480
Speaker 1: is a good thing. It promotes productivity because people envy

2678
02:27:43,520 --> 02:27:46,040
Speaker 1: the rich and emulate them. People who complain about inequality

2679
02:27:46,080 --> 02:27:48,240
Speaker 1: are either sore looters or old foggies who need to

2680
02:27:48,280 --> 02:27:52,080
Speaker 1: get hip to the way things work nowadays. Nine Corporations

2681
02:27:52,080 --> 02:27:54,920
Speaker 1: could do no wrong. By definition, competition will take care

2682
02:27:54,920 --> 02:27:58,959
Speaker 1: of all problems, including any tendency monopoly. Ten. The markets

2683
02:27:59,040 --> 02:28:02,039
Speaker 1: engineered and promote it by neoliberal experts can always provide

2684
02:28:02,040 --> 02:28:04,840
Speaker 1: a solution to the problems seemingly endlessly caused by the

2685
02:28:04,840 --> 02:28:07,320
Speaker 1: market in the first place. There's always an app for that.

2686
02:28:07,600 --> 02:28:11,840
Speaker 1: Eleven there's no difference between is and should be free markets.

2687
02:28:11,840 --> 02:28:15,320
Speaker 1: Both should be normatively and are positively the most efficient

2688
02:28:15,320 --> 02:28:18,360
Speaker 1: economic system and the most just way of doing politics,

2689
02:28:18,360 --> 02:28:20,840
Speaker 1: and the most sympirically true description of human behavior and

2690
02:28:20,879 --> 02:28:23,400
Speaker 1: the most ethical and moral way to live, which in

2691
02:28:23,440 --> 02:28:28,160
Speaker 1: turn explains, justifies and justifies why their versions of free

2692
02:28:28,200 --> 02:28:32,160
Speaker 1: markets should be and as neoliberals build more and more power,

2693
02:28:32,240 --> 02:28:35,920
Speaker 1: increasingly are universal. Yeah, we we we we We've read

2694
02:28:35,920 --> 02:28:38,920
Speaker 1: a long list of things. But essentially the point of

2695
02:28:38,959 --> 02:28:41,160
Speaker 1: this is that the liberals want to transform everything into

2696
02:28:41,200 --> 02:28:42,760
Speaker 1: the market because they think the market is a more

2697
02:28:42,800 --> 02:28:44,800
Speaker 1: efficient way of doing things, in a better and more

2698
02:28:44,879 --> 02:28:48,199
Speaker 1: moral and more just way of doing things than anything

2699
02:28:48,240 --> 02:28:51,280
Speaker 1: else you can possibly imagine, including you know, things like

2700
02:28:51,360 --> 02:28:56,240
Speaker 1: democracy and you know, and any problem the system like

2701
02:28:56,320 --> 02:28:58,879
Speaker 1: produces will be solved by the system. Now, this is

2702
02:28:59,200 --> 02:29:02,160
Speaker 1: this is an increase credibly radical political program in a

2703
02:29:02,200 --> 02:29:05,680
Speaker 1: lot of ways in that it will you know, you

2704
02:29:05,879 --> 02:29:07,640
Speaker 1: can you can you can argue whether it's a radical

2705
02:29:07,720 --> 02:29:09,520
Speaker 1: or reactionary program. I mean, I think I think it's

2706
02:29:09,520 --> 02:29:11,560
Speaker 1: a it's a deeply reactionary one in some ways, but

2707
02:29:11,640 --> 02:29:13,879
Speaker 1: it is a is a program that is vastly different

2708
02:29:13,920 --> 02:29:17,920
Speaker 1: than anything else that has come before it. Now, the challenge,

2709
02:29:17,920 --> 02:29:20,039
Speaker 1: of course, was getting anyone else to agree to this,

2710
02:29:20,840 --> 02:29:23,440
Speaker 1: and the answer is that it's really hard to It

2711
02:29:23,480 --> 02:29:26,879
Speaker 1: is extremely hard to convince people that you know, everyone

2712
02:29:26,920 --> 02:29:29,600
Speaker 1: should bow down to the market, etcetera, etcetera. And so

2713
02:29:29,760 --> 02:29:34,040
Speaker 1: the only way they can actually do this is by lying. Now,

2714
02:29:35,080 --> 02:29:39,600
Speaker 1: as as Morowski describes, the neoliberals operate an incredibly sophisticated

2715
02:29:39,640 --> 02:29:41,840
Speaker 1: intellectual and political network that forms a sort of a

2716
02:29:41,920 --> 02:29:44,920
Speaker 1: choice good doll with Montpellar ownciety at Et Center and

2717
02:29:45,000 --> 02:29:47,400
Speaker 1: an ever expanding group of more and less specialized think

2718
02:29:47,440 --> 02:29:50,560
Speaker 1: tanks the shell layers. So it is where that they

2719
02:29:50,640 --> 02:29:53,360
Speaker 1: mirror the vanguard structure and sort of front group networks

2720
02:29:53,400 --> 02:29:55,920
Speaker 1: of their communist opponents, but they have significantly better financial backing.

2721
02:29:55,959 --> 02:29:57,240
Speaker 1: And this means that you know, they can run the

2722
02:29:57,240 --> 02:30:00,400
Speaker 1: American Enterprise Institute and uh, you know, with with with

2723
02:30:01,240 --> 02:30:05,080
Speaker 1: copious amounts of coke money, they can run this entire

2724
02:30:05,240 --> 02:30:07,280
Speaker 1: enormous network of think tanks that allows them to sort

2725
02:30:07,280 --> 02:30:10,920
Speaker 1: of act as a government in waiting. And the other

2726
02:30:11,040 --> 02:30:14,120
Speaker 1: thing that they're going to attempt to do is take

2727
02:30:14,160 --> 02:30:16,560
Speaker 1: over the global regulatory bureaucracy, the I m F, the

2728
02:30:16,600 --> 02:30:20,960
Speaker 1: World Bank, eventually weld trade organizations and force people to

2729
02:30:21,040 --> 02:30:26,280
Speaker 1: do this at gunpoints by using those organizations. Now, all

2730
02:30:26,320 --> 02:30:29,080
Speaker 1: they needed was a crisis that they could use to

2731
02:30:29,080 --> 02:30:31,840
Speaker 1: implement their policies, and next week we're going to look

2732
02:30:31,879 --> 02:30:33,959
Speaker 1: at the crisis that gave them exactly what they wanted.

2733
02:30:34,720 --> 02:30:36,960
Speaker 1: This has been nick It Happen Here. Find us on

2734
02:30:37,560 --> 02:30:40,560
Speaker 1: Instagram and on Twitter at Happened Here pod. Find the

2735
02:30:40,640 --> 02:30:52,600
Speaker 1: rest of our stuff that cools um and goodbye. The

2736
02:30:52,720 --> 02:30:56,200
Speaker 1: Gangster Chronicles podcast is a weekly conversation that revolves around

2737
02:30:56,360 --> 02:31:00,840
Speaker 1: Underworld and criminals, the entertainers to BIS crime law enforcement.

2738
02:31:00,920 --> 02:31:03,880
Speaker 1: We cover all facets of the game. Gainst The Chronicles

2739
02:31:03,959 --> 02:31:07,760
Speaker 1: podcast doesn't glorify promotilstit of the activities. We just discussed

2740
02:31:07,800 --> 02:31:10,760
Speaker 1: the ramifications and repercussions of these activities because at the

2741
02:31:10,800 --> 02:31:13,720
Speaker 1: Wall she played gamester games. You are ultimately rewarded with

2742
02:31:13,800 --> 02:31:17,680
Speaker 1: Gangster Prizes. Our Heart Radios number one for podcasts, but

2743
02:31:17,800 --> 02:31:20,480
Speaker 1: don't take our award for it. Find Against the Chronicles

2744
02:31:20,560 --> 02:31:22,960
Speaker 1: podcast and I Heart Radio app or wherever you get

2745
02:31:23,000 --> 02:31:27,959
Speaker 1: your podcast. Make sure to check out Drink Champs, your

2746
02:31:28,000 --> 02:31:31,160
Speaker 1: number one music podcast on the Black Effect Podcast Network.

2747
02:31:31,400 --> 02:31:33,120
Speaker 1: Host N O. R E and d J E. F

2748
02:31:33,280 --> 02:31:36,280
Speaker 1: N sat down with artists and icon Yea, which Vulture

2749
02:31:36,360 --> 02:31:40,440
Speaker 1: called one of most significant interviews. I literally had to

2750
02:31:40,560 --> 02:31:42,600
Speaker 1: go like Thanos and I don't want to have to

2751
02:31:42,640 --> 02:31:44,680
Speaker 1: be the villain. But when I went and did the

2752
02:31:44,800 --> 02:31:48,920
Speaker 1: Donda thing, he returned and everybody had to sit back

2753
02:31:49,080 --> 02:31:52,480
Speaker 1: and watch the real leader. Check out Drink Champs, Conversation

2754
02:31:52,560 --> 02:31:55,280
Speaker 1: with Yea and many more legendary artists each and every

2755
02:31:55,360 --> 02:31:58,200
Speaker 1: Friday on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or

2756
02:31:58,200 --> 02:32:13,880
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite show. What I mean,

2757
02:32:13,920 --> 02:32:16,160
Speaker 1: that's that's all I got today. Who's Who's taken over?

2758
02:32:16,320 --> 02:32:21,080
Speaker 1: Come on? It's me? I guess it's me? All right,

2759
02:32:21,160 --> 02:32:23,480
Speaker 1: Well then, what what show is this? And what do

2760
02:32:23,600 --> 02:32:26,200
Speaker 1: we do? This is it could happen here. We talk

2761
02:32:26,280 --> 02:32:30,400
Speaker 1: about things being bad and also what you can do

2762
02:32:30,480 --> 02:32:32,760
Speaker 1: about them, But this is a this is a things

2763
02:32:32,760 --> 02:32:35,120
Speaker 1: are bad episode and not at what you can do

2764
02:32:35,200 --> 02:32:39,600
Speaker 1: about the episode specifically. This is part two of what

2765
02:32:39,720 --> 02:32:41,960
Speaker 1: I guess you could call our mini series on neoliberalism.

2766
02:32:43,000 --> 02:32:45,680
Speaker 1: And so you know, yesterday we talked a lot about

2767
02:32:46,240 --> 02:32:49,520
Speaker 1: who the originally liberals are. They have a bit of

2768
02:32:49,560 --> 02:32:51,560
Speaker 1: power in Germany in the fifties, but for the fifties

2769
02:32:51,560 --> 02:32:55,960
Speaker 1: and sixties up to the seventies, they're kind of nobody's there.

2770
02:32:56,120 --> 02:32:57,720
Speaker 1: You know, they're they're there. They have a couple of

2771
02:32:57,760 --> 02:32:59,080
Speaker 1: think tanks, but they're kind of they're kind of just

2772
02:32:59,160 --> 02:33:02,080
Speaker 1: siloed off in the corner and they yell at people,

2773
02:33:02,200 --> 02:33:06,320
Speaker 1: and people kind of ignore them. And what they're waiting for, essentially,

2774
02:33:06,720 --> 02:33:10,160
Speaker 1: is the right crisis, and in the nineteen seventies they

2775
02:33:10,240 --> 02:33:14,720
Speaker 1: finally find that crisis. Now, I think it's kind of

2776
02:33:14,760 --> 02:33:16,880
Speaker 1: hard to remember in a lot of ways because of

2777
02:33:16,959 --> 02:33:19,240
Speaker 1: how the eighties went, But in the in the early

2778
02:33:19,320 --> 02:33:22,920
Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, things are not looking good for capitalism. I mean,

2779
02:33:23,000 --> 02:33:24,920
Speaker 1: you have so you know, I and I end wins

2780
02:33:24,959 --> 02:33:29,119
Speaker 1: this election nineteen seventy We'll talk about what happened there

2781
02:33:29,320 --> 02:33:32,960
Speaker 1: in another episode. But you know, it's it's not just

2782
02:33:33,080 --> 02:33:37,000
Speaker 1: that in nineteen nineteen seventy four, Well, so to the

2783
02:33:37,040 --> 02:33:39,760
Speaker 1: whole early nineteen seventies, am we called Carbrial is just

2784
02:33:39,959 --> 02:33:44,520
Speaker 1: absolutely annihilating the Portuguese army, and he, you know, he wins.

2785
02:33:44,760 --> 02:33:46,440
Speaker 1: He finds one of the like one of history's greatest

2786
02:33:46,440 --> 02:33:50,959
Speaker 1: guerrilla wars, and this basically destroys the entire Portuguese state

2787
02:33:51,000 --> 02:33:54,240
Speaker 1: and caused the Carnathan Carnation Revolution. The Portuguese colonies get free,

2788
02:33:54,240 --> 02:33:56,720
Speaker 1: the Dirt takes part in Methiopia, and then nineteen seventy five,

2789
02:33:57,480 --> 02:34:00,000
Speaker 1: the North Vietnam wins of the like the war in Vietnam,

2790
02:34:00,000 --> 02:34:02,000
Speaker 1: and now you know, the product of this is that

2791
02:34:02,920 --> 02:34:06,279
Speaker 1: Cambodia falls, Loos falls. There's now there's five social estates

2792
02:34:06,320 --> 02:34:10,480
Speaker 1: in Eastern East Asia, in Southeast Asia and Yea also Mongolea,

2793
02:34:10,520 --> 02:34:13,080
Speaker 1: but nobody really cares about them. And as as all

2794
02:34:13,120 --> 02:34:14,640
Speaker 1: of this is happening, as these sort of as the

2795
02:34:14,640 --> 02:34:16,880
Speaker 1: anti colonial armies are sort of marching their way through

2796
02:34:16,920 --> 02:34:23,240
Speaker 1: the world, there's an enormous economic crisis. And yeah, I

2797
02:34:23,240 --> 02:34:25,080
Speaker 1: mean there's a lot of things happening at the same time.

2798
02:34:25,879 --> 02:34:27,440
Speaker 1: One of the ones I think is probably the thing,

2799
02:34:27,480 --> 02:34:29,440
Speaker 1: the thing that people remember the most is there's just

2800
02:34:29,640 --> 02:34:34,960
Speaker 1: unbelievable inflation, and you know, and and economic growth starts

2801
02:34:34,959 --> 02:34:39,160
Speaker 1: to slowed down. Although so something I think that we

2802
02:34:39,240 --> 02:34:40,720
Speaker 1: do need to keep in mind is that when I

2803
02:34:40,760 --> 02:34:45,280
Speaker 1: say economic growth slows, so economic growth from like six

2804
02:34:45,400 --> 02:34:51,240
Speaker 1: seven nine is um from two thousand and two thousand seven,

2805
02:34:51,320 --> 02:34:54,000
Speaker 1: it was two point three percent in the US. And

2806
02:34:54,040 --> 02:34:55,400
Speaker 1: so you know, when when when I say there's an

2807
02:34:55,400 --> 02:34:57,640
Speaker 1: economic crisis going on here, like economic growth in the

2808
02:34:57,680 --> 02:35:00,920
Speaker 1: seventies is better than any decades since, but it's still

2809
02:35:00,920 --> 02:35:03,840
Speaker 1: considered the crisis decade because there's much of inflation, and

2810
02:35:04,640 --> 02:35:07,760
Speaker 1: you know, everyone has their own theory as to why

2811
02:35:07,879 --> 02:35:11,840
Speaker 1: this is happening, because the sort of Keynesians who who

2812
02:35:11,879 --> 02:35:13,920
Speaker 1: have been in power, whose thing is, oh, well, we

2813
02:35:14,000 --> 02:35:15,960
Speaker 1: can you know, if if there's everyn economic crisis, we

2814
02:35:16,000 --> 02:35:17,800
Speaker 1: can sort of we can spend money, and that you know,

2815
02:35:17,840 --> 02:35:19,600
Speaker 1: then the government spending money will drag everyone out of

2816
02:35:19,600 --> 02:35:22,879
Speaker 1: the crisis. But in Keynsian theory, like there's not supposed

2817
02:35:22,879 --> 02:35:26,680
Speaker 1: to be inflation, if like if if unemployment is increasing

2818
02:35:26,680 --> 02:35:28,560
Speaker 1: and there's an economic crisis, there's not supposed to inflation,

2819
02:35:28,640 --> 02:35:31,240
Speaker 1: and suddenly there's both. So the Kensians have nothing, and

2820
02:35:31,280 --> 02:35:35,200
Speaker 1: they're sort of just running around like just with basically

2821
02:35:35,280 --> 02:35:37,039
Speaker 1: like checking to their head cut off and going, oh god,

2822
02:35:37,080 --> 02:35:38,760
Speaker 1: we have no idea what's happening. We don't know what's happening.

2823
02:35:39,480 --> 02:35:42,520
Speaker 1: And so into this gap steps a bunch of weirdos.

2824
02:35:43,520 --> 02:35:46,040
Speaker 1: And so I'm just gonna I'm gonna go through a

2825
02:35:46,280 --> 02:35:48,600
Speaker 1: few of the theories as to why this crisis happened,

2826
02:35:48,680 --> 02:35:52,800
Speaker 1: because I don't know, and I think there's elements of

2827
02:35:52,840 --> 02:35:57,200
Speaker 1: truth in most of the stories ish kind of but

2828
02:35:57,520 --> 02:36:00,960
Speaker 1: you know, it's this is extremely complicated and there's still

2829
02:36:01,000 --> 02:36:04,360
Speaker 1: no consensus on it. So I'm gonna start with the

2830
02:36:04,520 --> 02:36:10,360
Speaker 1: most crank, which is so so the run Paul people.

2831
02:36:11,080 --> 02:36:13,800
Speaker 1: The whole thing is, yeah, every everything went to ship

2832
02:36:13,959 --> 02:36:16,000
Speaker 1: has been shipped ever since because the US abandon the

2833
02:36:16,040 --> 02:36:20,200
Speaker 1: gold standard, and like they're right into the extent that

2834
02:36:20,360 --> 02:36:23,200
Speaker 1: this happens. So basically, Nixon has been trying to pay

2835
02:36:23,240 --> 02:36:25,600
Speaker 1: for the Vietnam War and he can't. And you know,

2836
02:36:25,720 --> 02:36:27,840
Speaker 1: the the US dollar has been pegged to a certain

2837
02:36:27,840 --> 02:36:29,360
Speaker 1: amount of gold, right, and you can do this thing

2838
02:36:29,400 --> 02:36:30,800
Speaker 1: where if you get it, you have an American dollar,

2839
02:36:30,840 --> 02:36:33,160
Speaker 1: you can exchange it for that amount of gold. And

2840
02:36:33,280 --> 02:36:36,240
Speaker 1: so travels the goal just it's like, okay, we're just

2841
02:36:36,280 --> 02:36:38,240
Speaker 1: gonna we're gonna take all of this gold. And so

2842
02:36:38,400 --> 02:36:40,000
Speaker 1: he does in the US starts running out of gold

2843
02:36:40,120 --> 02:36:42,480
Speaker 1: and so bye bye by In the early seventies, Nixon

2844
02:36:42,640 --> 02:36:45,080
Speaker 1: is like, fuck this, you can't actually exchange dollars for

2845
02:36:45,120 --> 02:36:49,120
Speaker 1: gold anymore. And now every single libertarian starts every rant

2846
02:36:49,200 --> 02:36:54,360
Speaker 1: with fiat currency. But you know this, this this does

2847
02:36:54,480 --> 02:36:56,440
Speaker 1: have an effect on the economy, which we'll talk about

2848
02:36:56,480 --> 02:37:00,120
Speaker 1: more in the bit um. There's you know it, but

2849
02:37:00,160 --> 02:37:02,640
Speaker 1: there's there's a lot of other explanations for this, um

2850
02:37:03,520 --> 02:37:05,720
Speaker 1: the modern monetary three people if you listen to them,

2851
02:37:05,840 --> 02:37:09,880
Speaker 1: and also Peter Thiel. Weirdly, I will argue, oh, it's

2852
02:37:09,879 --> 02:37:12,200
Speaker 1: all because of the oil shock, because oil prices increased,

2853
02:37:13,920 --> 02:37:18,560
Speaker 1: neoliberals will spend neo liberal essentially, they blame too much

2854
02:37:18,600 --> 02:37:22,640
Speaker 1: government spending welfare programs and then wages being too high,

2855
02:37:22,720 --> 02:37:28,959
Speaker 1: and also band monetary policy. There's like an entire there's

2856
02:37:29,000 --> 02:37:31,920
Speaker 1: there's like seventeen different Marxist explanations for it, some of

2857
02:37:32,000 --> 02:37:35,600
Speaker 1: which are I'll talk about like one and a half

2858
02:37:35,680 --> 02:37:40,800
Speaker 1: of them, um that are more plausible. One one of

2859
02:37:40,800 --> 02:37:46,120
Speaker 1: the explanations has to do with how essentially, so the

2860
02:37:46,200 --> 02:37:48,000
Speaker 1: other thing that's happening in the sixte seventies is that

2861
02:37:48,240 --> 02:37:50,760
Speaker 1: minorities and women are entering the workplace and are you know,

2862
02:37:52,080 --> 02:37:55,120
Speaker 1: actually demanding to be paid the wages that white men

2863
02:37:55,160 --> 02:37:58,560
Speaker 1: have been being paid, and corporations essentially just can't afford this,

2864
02:37:59,320 --> 02:38:02,000
Speaker 1: and so you know that they have two choices. It's

2865
02:38:02,000 --> 02:38:03,880
Speaker 1: either we pay these people actual wages or we just

2866
02:38:03,959 --> 02:38:08,440
Speaker 1: murder everyone, and they took the second one. So it's

2867
02:38:08,680 --> 02:38:10,560
Speaker 1: something that that has also been happening through this whole

2868
02:38:10,600 --> 02:38:14,160
Speaker 1: period is that profit rates and manufacturing just keep collapsing.

2869
02:38:14,959 --> 02:38:17,160
Speaker 1: And there there's there's a whole thing here about some

2870
02:38:17,440 --> 02:38:21,320
Speaker 1: marketis theory stuff. But the thing that's important is that

2871
02:38:22,320 --> 02:38:23,959
Speaker 1: that and this this has also happened in the seventies.

2872
02:38:24,040 --> 02:38:27,920
Speaker 1: Eventually you hit a point where manufacturing growth become zero sum.

2873
02:38:29,080 --> 02:38:31,720
Speaker 1: And you know, so you can have manufacturing growth in

2874
02:38:32,360 --> 02:38:34,560
Speaker 1: one country, but you can't have it in another because

2875
02:38:34,920 --> 02:38:37,720
Speaker 1: at a certain point you're producing too much stuff and

2876
02:38:37,720 --> 02:38:40,360
Speaker 1: people start getting kicked out of the labor process. And

2877
02:38:40,520 --> 02:38:42,160
Speaker 1: this has a bunch of effects. One is it it

2878
02:38:42,160 --> 02:38:43,680
Speaker 1: means you get a bunch of people who are employed.

2879
02:38:43,720 --> 02:38:48,520
Speaker 1: And to it means that there's just a bunch of

2880
02:38:48,680 --> 02:38:51,320
Speaker 1: money floating around that nobody can actually invest in places.

2881
02:38:51,360 --> 02:38:53,080
Speaker 1: And this is you know, like all of the weird

2882
02:38:53,120 --> 02:38:58,280
Speaker 1: stuff the Saudias do. It is just basically from this

2883
02:38:58,640 --> 02:39:00,360
Speaker 1: this money. There's a whole this, this whole piles of

2884
02:39:00,400 --> 02:39:02,879
Speaker 1: oil money that are just sitting around that nobody canfst

2885
02:39:02,920 --> 02:39:07,160
Speaker 1: in anything. And that's going to cause you know that

2886
02:39:07,240 --> 02:39:08,760
Speaker 1: that that that that's that's that's going to cause a

2887
02:39:08,800 --> 02:39:14,840
Speaker 1: lot of stuff down the road. But for now, yeah,

2888
02:39:14,879 --> 02:39:16,800
Speaker 1: we'll talk about the dead crisis and causes sort of

2889
02:39:16,879 --> 02:39:20,240
Speaker 1: next episode, but for now, I'm going to try to

2890
02:39:20,440 --> 02:39:22,720
Speaker 1: pull all of these together and like have something, have

2891
02:39:22,800 --> 02:39:26,840
Speaker 1: a coherent thing that makes sense, which is essentially but

2892
02:39:26,959 --> 02:39:29,840
Speaker 1: by the end of the seventies profit rate or declining,

2893
02:39:29,920 --> 02:39:32,440
Speaker 1: and then Nixon pulls, you know, Nick Nixon pulls the

2894
02:39:32,480 --> 02:39:36,800
Speaker 1: dollar off the gold standard, and this causes the value

2895
02:39:36,840 --> 02:39:39,960
Speaker 1: the dollars just plunge. And this this is the thing

2896
02:39:40,040 --> 02:39:43,680
Speaker 1: that sets off the nine oil crisis. So the ny

2897
02:39:43,680 --> 02:39:46,000
Speaker 1: SA oil crisis is weird because it's not an oil crisis.

2898
02:39:46,280 --> 02:39:48,000
Speaker 1: Every everyone looks at the Griber crisis and it goes, oh,

2899
02:39:48,040 --> 02:39:50,040
Speaker 1: it's an oil crisis. The crisis because there wasn't enough oil,

2900
02:39:50,080 --> 02:39:51,800
Speaker 1: and it's it's not it's nothing to do with that

2901
02:39:52,040 --> 02:39:53,760
Speaker 1: is literally nothing to do a supply of oil at all.

2902
02:39:54,720 --> 02:39:59,640
Speaker 1: What actually happens is that so you have OPEC, right

2903
02:39:59,760 --> 02:40:01,440
Speaker 1: or because this sort of is the Alliance of Oil

2904
02:40:01,440 --> 02:40:06,080
Speaker 1: Producing Cartels UM and they have this extremely complicated system

2905
02:40:06,520 --> 02:40:11,000
Speaker 1: where they they sell oil to oil companies and then

2906
02:40:11,040 --> 02:40:13,080
Speaker 1: the oil companies sell the oil, did they refine it

2907
02:40:13,160 --> 02:40:15,880
Speaker 1: and sell it to you, And they have this incredibly

2908
02:40:15,879 --> 02:40:23,039
Speaker 1: convoluted tax structured on it and eventually, so the oil

2909
02:40:23,080 --> 02:40:26,800
Speaker 1: companies are having like the price of oil starts to rise,

2910
02:40:26,840 --> 02:40:29,440
Speaker 1: and the oil companies are basically just taking it all

2911
02:40:29,480 --> 02:40:31,280
Speaker 1: of the profit from this, and so OPEC goes, Okay,

2912
02:40:31,280 --> 02:40:34,160
Speaker 1: you guys are gonna pay taxes, and the oil companies

2913
02:40:34,200 --> 02:40:39,080
Speaker 1: just refused, and so OPEC just unilaterally, just you know,

2914
02:40:39,280 --> 02:40:41,520
Speaker 1: OPEC just unilaterally is like, Okay, you guys are gonna

2915
02:40:41,520 --> 02:40:43,280
Speaker 1: pay taxes, and we're gonna make you pay taxes by

2916
02:40:43,640 --> 02:40:46,240
Speaker 1: by just increasing the price that we sell you oil at.

2917
02:40:47,680 --> 02:40:51,520
Speaker 1: And this gets remembered as like OPEC increasing the price

2918
02:40:51,600 --> 02:40:53,400
Speaker 1: of oil, even though it was literally just them saying

2919
02:40:53,400 --> 02:40:59,200
Speaker 1: you're gonna pay taxes. Now, this is the part that's

2920
02:40:59,280 --> 02:41:03,920
Speaker 1: very weird, which is that, Okay, so if you heard

2921
02:41:03,920 --> 02:41:07,120
Speaker 1: you two heard of the oil crisis, like the story yeah, yeah,

2922
02:41:07,120 --> 02:41:10,040
Speaker 1: I mean I are the way it's always gone in textbooks,

2923
02:41:10,080 --> 02:41:12,480
Speaker 1: as you talk about like the stagflation of the seventies

2924
02:41:12,560 --> 02:41:15,480
Speaker 1: and the fucking you know, lines of cars at gas

2925
02:41:15,560 --> 02:41:19,959
Speaker 1: stations going back blocks because OPEC factory. And yeah, that's

2926
02:41:19,959 --> 02:41:22,560
Speaker 1: how it's always framed, is that like there's this big

2927
02:41:23,200 --> 02:41:27,400
Speaker 1: political crisis over OPEC that led the gas supply getting throttled.

2928
02:41:27,440 --> 02:41:29,240
Speaker 1: And it came at a time when the economy had

2929
02:41:29,240 --> 02:41:32,360
Speaker 1: already slowed down and everything got terrible. And then a

2930
02:41:32,440 --> 02:41:36,120
Speaker 1: few years later we got RoboCop. Yeah, well we did

2931
02:41:36,160 --> 02:41:38,520
Speaker 1: get a pop. But the important thing about the story

2932
02:41:38,680 --> 02:41:41,360
Speaker 1: is that every single thing about that story is wrong,

2933
02:41:42,360 --> 02:41:44,600
Speaker 1: every part of it. Well, I mean there were lines

2934
02:41:44,680 --> 02:41:46,280
Speaker 1: at gas station. Yeah, I mean there are lines of

2935
02:41:46,320 --> 02:41:48,360
Speaker 1: gas stations, but the lines at the gas stations have

2936
02:41:48,520 --> 02:41:51,840
Speaker 1: literally nothing to do with OPEC, which is nothing. So

2937
02:41:52,240 --> 02:41:58,279
Speaker 1: on October six, the era members of of OPEC are like, fucket,

2938
02:41:58,360 --> 02:42:00,240
Speaker 1: we're gonna make the oil companies pay more for oil.

2939
02:42:00,600 --> 02:42:01,760
Speaker 1: And then the rest of the rest of ope that

2940
02:42:01,840 --> 02:42:06,360
Speaker 1: follows them. Now two days later is it Yeah, the

2941
02:42:06,760 --> 02:42:10,480
Speaker 1: next day there is a completely unrelated thing to all

2942
02:42:10,560 --> 02:42:12,720
Speaker 1: of this, which is that while while this is going on,

2943
02:42:12,800 --> 02:42:16,200
Speaker 1: the Jan Kapoor War starts, and so Egypt and Syria

2944
02:42:16,280 --> 02:42:20,120
Speaker 1: attack Israel, um the basical attack the Israel occupation forces

2945
02:42:20,160 --> 02:42:23,480
Speaker 1: in their country, and the war is going really badly

2946
02:42:23,560 --> 02:42:25,440
Speaker 1: for them there, I mean it's it's I mean, it's

2947
02:42:25,440 --> 02:42:27,000
Speaker 1: not going it's not going as badly as like the

2948
02:42:27,120 --> 02:42:29,480
Speaker 1: previous wars had gone for the air powers, but it's

2949
02:42:29,480 --> 02:42:33,480
Speaker 1: not going great. And so on October six, Arab oil

2950
02:42:33,520 --> 02:42:36,440
Speaker 1: producing countries declare if they're they're cutting the amount of

2951
02:42:36,440 --> 02:42:38,680
Speaker 1: oil they export by five percent per month until Israel

2952
02:42:38,760 --> 02:42:42,560
Speaker 1: returns his territories. It occupies sixty seven and they haven't

2953
02:42:42,560 --> 02:42:46,200
Speaker 1: embargo on the US. But and this is the very

2954
02:42:46,240 --> 02:42:49,160
Speaker 1: important part. This has nothing to do with OPEC. This

2955
02:42:49,320 --> 02:42:52,000
Speaker 1: is not Opaq at all. It's not this. This is

2956
02:42:52,080 --> 02:42:53,800
Speaker 1: this is this is just a couple of random Arab

2957
02:42:53,879 --> 02:42:56,560
Speaker 1: countries are like, we're going to do this, and you know,

2958
02:42:56,680 --> 02:42:58,959
Speaker 1: and I think when I think it's interesting about Robert

2959
02:42:59,000 --> 02:43:01,280
Speaker 1: we're talking about, is is OPEC factory? You know? Is

2960
02:43:01,320 --> 02:43:03,760
Speaker 1: how this gets remembered and this this is one of

2961
02:43:03,800 --> 02:43:06,760
Speaker 1: the things that that neoliberals used to sort of push

2962
02:43:06,800 --> 02:43:08,480
Speaker 1: their model of the world right, which is that everything

2963
02:43:08,520 --> 02:43:11,240
Speaker 1: functions office supply and demands and oh look, hey the

2964
02:43:11,280 --> 02:43:12,800
Speaker 1: Arabs cut the supply of oil and that's why the

2965
02:43:12,840 --> 02:43:17,200
Speaker 1: prices rose. But it's just it's just wrong, it's empirically wrong.

2966
02:43:17,280 --> 02:43:19,800
Speaker 1: The price cut happens, I mean, the price increases happened

2967
02:43:19,920 --> 02:43:26,400
Speaker 1: the day before the the oil the price increases the

2968
02:43:26,480 --> 02:43:29,680
Speaker 1: day before the embargo, and the embargo and the oil price.

2969
02:43:29,760 --> 02:43:32,320
Speaker 1: People are different groups. They have nothing to do with

2970
02:43:32,400 --> 02:43:36,320
Speaker 1: each other. But you know this, this gets sort of

2971
02:43:36,720 --> 02:43:39,439
Speaker 1: systemed like this, this is this is how it's it's remembered.

2972
02:43:40,240 --> 02:43:41,560
Speaker 1: And and you know, it's not even just how to remembered,

2973
02:43:41,640 --> 02:43:44,640
Speaker 1: like like the Encyclopedia Britannica has the dates and which

2974
02:43:44,680 --> 02:43:46,199
Speaker 1: all of this stuff happens wrong, they have the sequence

2975
02:43:46,200 --> 02:43:47,880
Speaker 1: of events wrong, like all of the most of the

2976
02:43:47,879 --> 02:43:50,760
Speaker 1: people who write about this remember this whole thing wrong.

2977
02:43:50,840 --> 02:43:52,480
Speaker 1: And and this is this is part of the sort

2978
02:43:52,520 --> 02:43:55,000
Speaker 1: of an enormous propaganda effort that and neo liberals are

2979
02:43:55,000 --> 02:43:57,440
Speaker 1: able to do at this moment, which is they convince

2980
02:43:57,520 --> 02:44:00,160
Speaker 1: everyone that, oh, yeah, the price increases and the gagsly

2981
02:44:00,200 --> 02:44:04,120
Speaker 1: the gas shortages are are are about OPEC. But again,

2982
02:44:04,160 --> 02:44:06,520
Speaker 1: also like the the US only imports like seven percent

2983
02:44:06,600 --> 02:44:09,480
Speaker 1: of its oil from from the countries who are doing

2984
02:44:09,520 --> 02:44:12,520
Speaker 1: the embargo at this point. So the actual thing that's

2985
02:44:12,520 --> 02:44:14,320
Speaker 1: going on has to do with prices. It's a weird thing,

2986
02:44:14,360 --> 02:44:17,320
Speaker 1: as with price controls and gas companies are hoarding gas

2987
02:44:17,400 --> 02:44:18,960
Speaker 1: because they don't want to sell at a price control

2988
02:44:19,040 --> 02:44:22,560
Speaker 1: levels and stuff like that. But you know, the oil

2989
02:44:22,600 --> 02:44:25,880
Speaker 1: price increases, you know, they yeah like it, it is bad,

2990
02:44:26,000 --> 02:44:27,680
Speaker 1: Like the price of oil does go up and there

2991
02:44:27,720 --> 02:44:32,320
Speaker 1: are shortages, but it has nothing to do with like

2992
02:44:32,440 --> 02:44:34,040
Speaker 1: there's nothing to do with the embargo, has nothing to

2993
02:44:34,080 --> 02:44:37,360
Speaker 1: do with, you know, like the supply of oil going down.

2994
02:44:37,520 --> 02:44:40,560
Speaker 1: It's just companies didn't want to pay taxes and so

2995
02:44:40,640 --> 02:44:42,360
Speaker 1: they started hoarding the oil instead of selling it, and

2996
02:44:42,360 --> 02:44:44,760
Speaker 1: they passed the price the tax increase onto the consumers

2997
02:44:44,760 --> 02:44:47,920
Speaker 1: instead of paying it. And as we talked about before,

2998
02:44:48,360 --> 02:44:51,119
Speaker 1: once this sort of like tax increase goes in that OPEC,

2999
02:44:51,360 --> 02:44:53,119
Speaker 1: well some of the open countries want to do goes

3000
02:44:53,160 --> 02:44:55,640
Speaker 1: into place, like the price of oil does increase, and

3001
02:44:56,200 --> 02:44:58,560
Speaker 1: this does funck the economy even more. But the economy

3002
02:44:58,560 --> 02:45:02,040
Speaker 1: hadn't really even sort of a mess before this, and

3003
02:45:02,240 --> 02:45:06,280
Speaker 1: it has one other very important effective that you know

3004
02:45:06,400 --> 02:45:09,080
Speaker 1: this is you know, I guess, I guess. The theme

3005
02:45:09,120 --> 02:45:10,960
Speaker 1: of this episode is that the oil and bargo matters,

3006
02:45:11,000 --> 02:45:13,920
Speaker 1: but the oil and bargo matters because people think it matters,

3007
02:45:13,959 --> 02:45:17,000
Speaker 1: not because they did anything and the other. So it

3008
02:45:17,120 --> 02:45:19,040
Speaker 1: matters in the US because everyone thinks that, oh, the

3009
02:45:19,200 --> 02:45:22,200
Speaker 1: scary Arab nations are coming for us. But it matters

3010
02:45:22,240 --> 02:45:26,520
Speaker 1: in the rest of the world because everyone else looks

3011
02:45:26,560 --> 02:45:29,680
Speaker 1: at this and goes, wait, hold on, you can actually

3012
02:45:30,000 --> 02:45:33,879
Speaker 1: use commodities. Essentially, you can use commodity prices like countries

3013
02:45:33,959 --> 02:45:39,680
Speaker 1: that like have raw you know, commodities can use this

3014
02:45:40,200 --> 02:45:43,400
Speaker 1: control to actually go fight you know, to like to

3015
02:45:43,520 --> 02:45:45,240
Speaker 1: go fight the West, to go fight the capitalists and

3016
02:45:45,280 --> 02:45:49,160
Speaker 1: go like you know, get money for themselves. And this

3017
02:45:49,320 --> 02:45:53,760
Speaker 1: leads us into something Robert Garrison to have you three

3018
02:45:53,920 --> 02:45:57,920
Speaker 1: you ever heard of the G seventy seven. Uh that

3019
02:45:58,080 --> 02:46:01,960
Speaker 1: like the seventy seven countries that have the most money. Well,

3020
02:46:02,080 --> 02:46:05,240
Speaker 1: that that's the that's the G seven. Well yeah, but

3021
02:46:05,280 --> 02:46:08,240
Speaker 1: I was, I was seven might be just a longer list.

3022
02:46:09,280 --> 02:46:11,480
Speaker 1: So yeah. So so this is this is the other

3023
02:46:11,560 --> 02:46:13,760
Speaker 1: thing from this period that just is completely lost as

3024
02:46:13,760 --> 02:46:16,000
Speaker 1: almost completely lost to history, and seventy seven is actually

3025
02:46:16,040 --> 02:46:22,160
Speaker 1: still around. But what they are was so in the sixties,

3026
02:46:22,320 --> 02:46:24,200
Speaker 1: you know, you have all of these countries that have

3027
02:46:24,840 --> 02:46:28,199
Speaker 1: recently gained independence, and all these countries have getting dependence

3028
02:46:28,760 --> 02:46:32,039
Speaker 1: um from their sort of colonial overlords, and they start

3029
02:46:32,120 --> 02:46:34,520
Speaker 1: to band together into basically a voting block in the

3030
02:46:34,640 --> 02:46:36,960
Speaker 1: U N And also this is the other the other

3031
02:46:37,000 --> 02:46:38,760
Speaker 1: weird part about the story is that so in the

3032
02:46:38,840 --> 02:46:41,879
Speaker 1: niteen seventies and sixties seventies, particularly the UN actually matters

3033
02:46:43,040 --> 02:46:45,520
Speaker 1: like it's it's it's it's a thing that people There

3034
02:46:45,600 --> 02:46:48,480
Speaker 1: was that like twenties years after World War Two, where

3035
02:46:48,520 --> 02:46:51,960
Speaker 1: people were maybe I mean a good example of the

3036
02:46:52,080 --> 02:46:54,400
Speaker 1: degree to which the u N actually used to be

3037
02:46:55,240 --> 02:46:59,560
Speaker 1: meaningful is watched the first Street Fighter movie. Um, because

3038
02:46:59,640 --> 02:47:01,880
Speaker 1: the good guys and that are clearly based off the

3039
02:47:02,000 --> 02:47:05,120
Speaker 1: u N. And nobody thinks it's ridiculous that the United

3040
02:47:05,240 --> 02:47:08,600
Speaker 1: Nations are actually doing something. Um, it's fine to have

3041
02:47:08,720 --> 02:47:10,440
Speaker 1: Jean Claude van dam And be the leader of the

3042
02:47:10,520 --> 02:47:13,400
Speaker 1: United Nations fist fighting a guy that that makes total

3043
02:47:13,480 --> 02:47:16,280
Speaker 1: sense in the nineteen nineties and you know, and so

3044
02:47:16,600 --> 02:47:19,880
Speaker 1: and part of talk about this war next episode. But basically, so,

3045
02:47:20,000 --> 02:47:22,280
Speaker 1: the reason the UN is a joke right now is

3046
02:47:22,440 --> 02:47:26,160
Speaker 1: because of what the US was doing to stop the

3047
02:47:26,200 --> 02:47:28,879
Speaker 1: G seventy seven from doing anything. I mean, I would

3048
02:47:28,959 --> 02:47:33,520
Speaker 1: argue that fail massive failures in Rwanda and uh Bosnia

3049
02:47:33,640 --> 02:47:36,600
Speaker 1: had a huge impact on that. A couple of genocides

3050
02:47:36,640 --> 02:47:38,280
Speaker 1: go down and people are like, well, what are these

3051
02:47:38,320 --> 02:47:40,960
Speaker 1: guys doing? But yeah, yeah, yeah, well this is this

3052
02:47:41,040 --> 02:47:42,840
Speaker 1: is this is how they got dysfunctional to the point

3053
02:47:42,879 --> 02:47:46,120
Speaker 1: where you can get that yeah, which is so so okay,

3054
02:47:46,160 --> 02:47:49,240
Speaker 1: So you have you know, and a bunch of coaches

3055
02:47:49,280 --> 02:47:51,560
Speaker 1: that call themselves, you know, the term they used for

3056
02:47:51,640 --> 02:47:54,680
Speaker 1: themselves is the third world. And they come together the

3057
02:47:54,720 --> 02:47:56,520
Speaker 1: form of this group and it's it's it's a really

3058
02:47:56,680 --> 02:47:59,720
Speaker 1: weird ideological mixed bag. Like I mean, you have you know,

3059
02:48:00,040 --> 02:48:03,560
Speaker 1: have you have like actual socialists like tensan years and

3060
02:48:03,879 --> 02:48:07,240
Speaker 1: Michael Borele and Jamaica. You've also got like Gaddaffi and

3061
02:48:07,320 --> 02:48:16,400
Speaker 1: the Bathists and like was a socialist come on Paradise

3062
02:48:16,800 --> 02:48:20,400
Speaker 1: ka Libya, you know, okay, my, my, my, my, My

3063
02:48:20,520 --> 02:48:23,320
Speaker 1: most contrarian hot take is that Salak Jaded was like

3064
02:48:23,440 --> 02:48:25,680
Speaker 1: actually kind of an mL who was that he was?

3065
02:48:25,840 --> 02:48:28,840
Speaker 1: He was briefly the Bathist in charge of Syria and

3066
02:48:28,879 --> 02:48:32,640
Speaker 1: then he got overthrown by but both of them, there's

3067
02:48:32,920 --> 02:48:38,120
Speaker 1: there's definite like actual like Marxist, you know, Linen, there's

3068
02:48:38,240 --> 02:48:40,520
Speaker 1: something like especially in the old school Bathists, like there

3069
02:48:40,560 --> 02:48:43,600
Speaker 1: were aspects of that, there was socialism kind of within it.

3070
02:48:43,760 --> 02:48:47,680
Speaker 1: It just it would be nonsense like for example, called

3071
02:48:47,680 --> 02:48:52,960
Speaker 1: Saddam Hussein's both yeah yeah, and you know, and you

3072
02:48:53,000 --> 02:48:54,440
Speaker 1: can't see like this this is this is this is

3073
02:48:54,560 --> 02:48:56,040
Speaker 1: this is a real grab back and you have. There's

3074
02:48:56,040 --> 02:48:58,240
Speaker 1: also just a bunch of random Latin American countries, like

3075
02:48:58,440 --> 02:49:01,119
Speaker 1: none of whom you can call socialist. And then there's

3076
02:49:01,120 --> 02:49:05,800
Speaker 1: also Saudi Arabia and Thailand are in this group. To

3077
02:49:05,840 --> 02:49:07,680
Speaker 1: get a sense of how fractus this is, India and

3078
02:49:07,760 --> 02:49:10,080
Speaker 1: Pakistan are also both part of this and they fight

3079
02:49:10,240 --> 02:49:12,400
Speaker 1: too full scale wars while they're both in the g

3080
02:49:12,520 --> 02:49:14,920
Speaker 1: seventies seven. Actually that's not true. There's two full scale

3081
02:49:14,959 --> 02:49:17,039
Speaker 1: wars and then there's like another half war they fight

3082
02:49:17,120 --> 02:49:20,199
Speaker 1: in the nineties. This yeah, like all all the people

3083
02:49:20,280 --> 02:49:22,440
Speaker 1: in this thing are fighting, are literally fighting wars against

3084
02:49:22,480 --> 02:49:25,320
Speaker 1: each other. It's kind of a mess, and you know,

3085
02:49:25,400 --> 02:49:27,800
Speaker 1: it's fun. It's fun in in the mid sixties and

3086
02:49:28,320 --> 02:49:31,039
Speaker 1: until nineteen seventy four, it's kind of their Their whole

3087
02:49:31,080 --> 02:49:34,160
Speaker 1: thing is we have moral authority, like where you know,

3088
02:49:34,280 --> 02:49:36,400
Speaker 1: like where you know where we're like we we we

3089
02:49:36,560 --> 02:49:39,240
Speaker 1: we have the authority of all of these nations have

3090
02:49:39,280 --> 02:49:41,040
Speaker 1: colonized us for a long time, and we're going to

3091
02:49:41,160 --> 02:49:45,360
Speaker 1: use that. But in the seventies, you know that the

3092
02:49:45,440 --> 02:49:48,800
Speaker 1: oil embarker happens, and a lot like most I think

3093
02:49:48,920 --> 02:49:52,000
Speaker 1: all most of the OPEC states are are are are

3094
02:49:52,200 --> 02:49:56,720
Speaker 1: in um are are are in the G seventy seven,

3095
02:49:57,360 --> 02:49:59,920
Speaker 1: and they look at they look at the oil and

3096
02:50:00,040 --> 02:50:04,920
Speaker 1: bargo and they look at OPEC raising prices and they go, wait,

3097
02:50:05,000 --> 02:50:08,400
Speaker 1: we can do this too. In the OPEC states are like, oh, hey,

3098
02:50:08,480 --> 02:50:10,240
Speaker 1: we can use this to push the hord. You know,

3099
02:50:10,360 --> 02:50:12,440
Speaker 1: we can use like push the whole power of like

3100
02:50:12,600 --> 02:50:15,320
Speaker 1: of the Third World. And they they they're planned to

3101
02:50:15,400 --> 02:50:18,000
Speaker 1: do this is something called the New International Economic Order,

3102
02:50:18,720 --> 02:50:20,560
Speaker 1: which is also something that no one has ever heard of,

3103
02:50:20,680 --> 02:50:27,199
Speaker 1: that is extremely important that has just the spoiler alert

3104
02:50:27,280 --> 02:50:30,040
Speaker 1: is that this this movement gets crushed so thoroughly that

3105
02:50:30,160 --> 02:50:32,040
Speaker 1: nobody knows what the New Economic Order is and the

3106
02:50:32,080 --> 02:50:35,560
Speaker 1: Third World is now slur. But you know, the thing

3107
02:50:35,640 --> 02:50:39,080
Speaker 1: that they're trying to do is create a never It

3108
02:50:39,160 --> 02:50:42,160
Speaker 1: calls the New International Economic Order a trade union of

3109
02:50:42,240 --> 02:50:44,920
Speaker 1: the poor, and so it's it's this thing they're trying

3110
02:50:44,959 --> 02:50:48,480
Speaker 1: to get passed through the U N that would you know,

3111
02:50:48,600 --> 02:50:50,840
Speaker 1: just designed to sort of ensure the economic sovereignty of

3112
02:50:50,879 --> 02:50:54,120
Speaker 1: these developing nations. Um and I'm going to read a

3113
02:50:54,280 --> 02:50:58,680
Speaker 1: list of the stuff that's in here. Um So A

3114
02:50:58,959 --> 02:51:02,560
Speaker 1: an absolute right of states to control the extraction and

3115
02:51:02,680 --> 02:51:06,080
Speaker 1: marketing of their domestic natural resources be the establishment and

3116
02:51:06,120 --> 02:51:09,560
Speaker 1: recognition of state man managed resource cartels to stabilize and

3117
02:51:09,640 --> 02:51:14,440
Speaker 1: raise commodity prices. See the Regulation of transnational Corporations D

3118
02:51:14,840 --> 02:51:18,280
Speaker 1: No strings attached technology transfers from north to south e.

3119
02:51:18,959 --> 02:51:22,600
Speaker 1: The granting of preferential trade preferences to countries in the

3120
02:51:22,680 --> 02:51:26,320
Speaker 1: south and f forgiveness for for certain debts that states

3121
02:51:26,360 --> 02:51:30,000
Speaker 1: in the south oh to the north. So this is

3122
02:51:30,160 --> 02:51:35,360
Speaker 1: like the act. This thing, if the international Economic Order

3123
02:51:35,400 --> 02:51:37,760
Speaker 1: had ever been implemented at all, it would have completely

3124
02:51:37,840 --> 02:51:41,480
Speaker 1: reversed the basically completely reverse the balance of economic power,

3125
02:51:42,480 --> 02:51:46,440
Speaker 1: shifting it basically from countries like the US, like you know,

3126
02:51:46,520 --> 02:51:50,039
Speaker 1: Western Europe, like Japan that are these giant manufacturing powerhouses,

3127
02:51:50,520 --> 02:51:53,360
Speaker 1: two countries that produce you know, raw materials, and there

3128
02:51:53,360 --> 02:51:54,520
Speaker 1: would have you know, and the ever thing that would

3129
02:51:54,520 --> 02:51:58,520
Speaker 1: have happened from this is you have these the no strings,

3130
02:51:58,600 --> 02:52:01,240
Speaker 1: You have a debt really for the global South and

3131
02:52:01,720 --> 02:52:06,400
Speaker 1: also these technology transfers. And the plan is basically too

3132
02:52:08,720 --> 02:52:11,600
Speaker 1: create a bunch of mini opex for just not even

3133
02:52:11,640 --> 02:52:14,000
Speaker 1: mini opus, create opex basically for every commodity. So you know,

3134
02:52:14,080 --> 02:52:17,240
Speaker 1: you have like an opaque, but it's for like box

3135
02:52:17,280 --> 02:52:21,280
Speaker 1: site or like copper, and you know they would use

3136
02:52:21,400 --> 02:52:24,040
Speaker 1: they would you know, you have all these opex and

3137
02:52:24,720 --> 02:52:26,320
Speaker 1: each one of them uses their power and they all

3138
02:52:26,320 --> 02:52:28,680
Speaker 1: cooperate to to to make sure that there's a stable

3139
02:52:28,760 --> 02:52:32,720
Speaker 1: price for for all of these commodities. And another part

3140
02:52:32,760 --> 02:52:35,920
Speaker 1: of this is that it's supposed to basically enshrine the

3141
02:52:36,000 --> 02:52:38,480
Speaker 1: right of countries to be able to just like nationalized

3142
02:52:38,520 --> 02:52:40,720
Speaker 1: resource companies. So you know, you have like a British

3143
02:52:40,760 --> 02:52:42,440
Speaker 1: oil company. I was like, well, we just take it

3144
02:52:42,520 --> 02:52:46,360
Speaker 1: out now it's ours. And the threat of this is

3145
02:52:46,440 --> 02:52:48,920
Speaker 1: great enough that if you read conservatives in the era,

3146
02:52:49,040 --> 02:52:51,320
Speaker 1: they will say things like the Soviet Union is no

3147
02:52:51,440 --> 02:52:53,600
Speaker 1: longer a threat. The greatest danger to the West today

3148
02:52:53,640 --> 02:52:57,800
Speaker 1: is the yeah, yeah, and this is this, Yeah, it's

3149
02:52:57,840 --> 02:53:00,840
Speaker 1: it's these these people are enormous past. Yeah. No, no

3150
02:53:00,879 --> 02:53:02,959
Speaker 1: one even remembers this anymore. And and it's it's because

3151
02:53:03,120 --> 02:53:06,960
Speaker 1: largely it's because of how just unbelievably badly these guys

3152
02:53:07,000 --> 02:53:09,960
Speaker 1: got stopped. Um, you know. And one of the other

3153
02:53:10,040 --> 02:53:11,440
Speaker 1: things that happens out of the product of this is

3154
02:53:11,560 --> 02:53:13,720
Speaker 1: this is where the G seven comes from. And it's

3155
02:53:13,720 --> 02:53:17,160
Speaker 1: originally and I think there's another thing. Yeah, the other

3156
02:53:17,200 --> 02:53:18,920
Speaker 1: funny part around this. So the G seven is originally

3157
02:53:18,959 --> 02:53:21,000
Speaker 1: a secret alliance, like through this whole through the whole seventies,

3158
02:53:21,000 --> 02:53:23,800
Speaker 1: nobody knows G seven exists. It's basically it starts as

3159
02:53:23,840 --> 02:53:26,800
Speaker 1: this like secret meeting of a bunch of finance ministers.

3160
02:53:26,879 --> 02:53:30,280
Speaker 1: Eventually they they add UH, Canada and I think Japan too,

3161
02:53:30,280 --> 02:53:33,320
Speaker 1: and it goes up to seven members and you know,

3162
02:53:33,400 --> 02:53:35,120
Speaker 1: and they have a couple of things they're trying to

3163
02:53:35,160 --> 02:53:37,440
Speaker 1: deal with. They're trying to deal with the economic collapse.

3164
02:53:37,560 --> 02:53:39,000
Speaker 1: But one of the big things, like one of the

3165
02:53:39,040 --> 02:53:40,920
Speaker 1: biggest things they're dealing with is the G seventy seven

3166
02:53:40,959 --> 02:53:45,000
Speaker 1: and OPEK and this this the result of this is

3167
02:53:45,120 --> 02:53:49,440
Speaker 1: this these enormous series of fights in UH implausibly the

3168
02:53:49,600 --> 02:53:53,840
Speaker 1: United Nations Conference on Trade and Development, which is I

3169
02:53:53,959 --> 02:53:56,000
Speaker 1: think this this is this is the last time ever

3170
02:53:56,160 --> 02:53:58,119
Speaker 1: that the fate of the entire world would be decided

3171
02:53:58,280 --> 02:54:00,600
Speaker 1: in a battle in like a sub committee of the

3172
02:54:00,720 --> 02:54:04,560
Speaker 1: U N And there's there's years and years and years

3173
02:54:04,600 --> 02:54:09,760
Speaker 1: of negotiations between well, the the G seven hasn't like

3174
02:54:10,040 --> 02:54:11,800
Speaker 1: openly to clear itself to G seven. It's sort of

3175
02:54:11,879 --> 02:54:17,840
Speaker 1: just it's basically the rich European countries so it's Canada, France, Germany, Italy,

3176
02:54:18,080 --> 02:54:21,400
Speaker 1: the UK, the US and Japan like for form this

3177
02:54:21,480 --> 02:54:25,000
Speaker 1: alliance and are like locked in together in order to

3178
02:54:25,040 --> 02:54:27,560
Speaker 1: stop the G seven from seventy seven from doing anything.

3179
02:54:29,520 --> 02:54:32,040
Speaker 1: And this is this is the this is the other.

3180
02:54:32,120 --> 02:54:35,840
Speaker 1: The other crisis that the neoliberals are responding to is

3181
02:54:35,920 --> 02:54:37,760
Speaker 1: it's it's not just and in many ways this is

3182
02:54:37,800 --> 02:54:41,040
Speaker 1: the one that scares them more because you know, it's

3183
02:54:41,080 --> 02:54:42,640
Speaker 1: not just that there's an economic crisis. It's not just

3184
02:54:42,760 --> 02:54:45,000
Speaker 1: that like capitalists are afraid because of losing money. It's

3185
02:54:45,800 --> 02:54:49,880
Speaker 1: if this stuff goes through, the entire balance of power

3186
02:54:50,720 --> 02:54:53,600
Speaker 1: in the entire global economy is going to change, and

3187
02:54:53,760 --> 02:54:55,720
Speaker 1: it's it's going to swing into the favor of a

3188
02:54:55,800 --> 02:54:59,440
Speaker 1: bunch of non Western countries and probably more most importantly,

3189
02:54:59,480 --> 02:55:02,400
Speaker 1: from the liberal They're going to enshrine the right of

3190
02:55:02,520 --> 02:55:05,200
Speaker 1: states to take things away from corporations and regulate them.

3191
02:55:05,959 --> 02:55:12,400
Speaker 1: And this is just absolutely completely unacceptable to both the

3192
02:55:12,480 --> 02:55:17,280
Speaker 1: neoliberals and just every single other organization that's even tangentially

3193
02:55:17,400 --> 02:55:21,879
Speaker 1: involved with sort of the Western nations. So the neo liberals,

3194
02:55:22,280 --> 02:55:24,199
Speaker 1: I talked about this a bit in in the last episode,

3195
02:55:24,200 --> 02:55:27,560
Speaker 1: which is that they they've been working on a strategy

3196
02:55:27,640 --> 02:55:31,160
Speaker 1: in order to take power that doesn't rely on states,

3197
02:55:31,800 --> 02:55:36,039
Speaker 1: and so what they've been doing for about twenty years

3198
02:55:36,200 --> 02:55:39,920
Speaker 1: is essentially infiltrating and working their way up through it

3199
02:55:40,080 --> 02:55:43,600
Speaker 1: like takes basically basically taking over uh, the International Monetary

3200
02:55:43,640 --> 02:55:48,440
Speaker 1: Fund in the World Bank who in this period and

3201
02:55:48,560 --> 02:55:51,360
Speaker 1: this is everything I think it is very weird and

3202
02:55:51,480 --> 02:55:53,040
Speaker 1: hard to remember, which is that the i m F

3203
02:55:53,120 --> 02:55:56,240
Speaker 1: and the World Bank, like there was a time when

3204
02:55:56,280 --> 02:55:59,640
Speaker 1: they weren't completely evil, Like like the i m F

3205
02:55:59,760 --> 02:56:02,040
Speaker 1: was basically set up to make sure that countries wouldn't

3206
02:56:02,080 --> 02:56:03,840
Speaker 1: just run out of money, right it was supposed to

3207
02:56:03,840 --> 02:56:05,760
Speaker 1: give people like yeah, and the World Bank, and it's

3208
02:56:05,840 --> 02:56:09,320
Speaker 1: it's turned into sort of this like international debt system

3209
02:56:09,440 --> 02:56:13,680
Speaker 1: for horror countries where they're always and being forced into

3210
02:56:13,840 --> 02:56:16,600
Speaker 1: austerity measures in the like yeah, yeah, and and that.

3211
02:56:16,720 --> 02:56:18,520
Speaker 1: But that that didn't used to be true. It used

3212
02:56:18,560 --> 02:56:20,600
Speaker 1: to be you know, the the i m F had

3213
02:56:20,640 --> 02:56:22,240
Speaker 1: a bunch of Kandians in it and sit same with

3214
02:56:22,280 --> 02:56:24,200
Speaker 1: the World Bank, and both both the i m F

3215
02:56:24,240 --> 02:56:26,840
Speaker 1: and the World Bank's leadership for a lot of this

3216
02:56:26,959 --> 02:56:32,280
Speaker 1: period wanted to negotiate and you know, and I think

3217
02:56:32,360 --> 02:56:33,800
Speaker 1: this is this, this is this is this is where

3218
02:56:33,800 --> 02:56:38,840
Speaker 1: we're gonna leave it here with basically, the the the

3219
02:56:39,080 --> 02:56:42,240
Speaker 1: entire world is an imp apocal crisis. There is the

3220
02:56:42,640 --> 02:56:45,520
Speaker 1: all the economies are collapsing, the sort of the the

3221
02:56:45,920 --> 02:56:48,840
Speaker 1: armies of of the anti colonial like world are moving,

3222
02:56:49,680 --> 02:56:52,720
Speaker 1: and the G seventy seven looks like it's it's literally

3223
02:56:52,879 --> 02:56:56,680
Speaker 1: on the verge of of you know, completely restructuring the

3224
02:56:56,720 --> 02:56:58,600
Speaker 1: economic system in a way that actually would have been

3225
02:56:58,680 --> 02:57:02,480
Speaker 1: slightly more fair and jazz than but the system that

3226
02:57:02,520 --> 02:57:05,320
Speaker 1: existed then, which was also infinitely more just and fair

3227
02:57:05,360 --> 02:57:08,520
Speaker 1: of the system that exist now. And next episode we're

3228
02:57:08,520 --> 02:57:11,120
Speaker 1: going to talk about how this all fell apart and

3229
02:57:11,280 --> 02:57:15,000
Speaker 1: how there was a choice in the seventies between either

3230
02:57:15,080 --> 02:57:19,040
Speaker 1: corporations can make money or people can have things. And

3231
02:57:20,080 --> 02:57:22,920
Speaker 1: the product of what the new Liberals are going to

3232
02:57:23,000 --> 02:57:24,760
Speaker 1: do in the next episode is that they are going

3233
02:57:24,879 --> 02:57:27,560
Speaker 1: to their solution to this problem is to tell the

3234
02:57:27,720 --> 02:57:29,440
Speaker 1: entire wretched of the earth to each it and die.

3235
02:57:32,920 --> 02:57:40,880
Speaker 1: And yeah, that's that's that's the episode. It's yeah, yeah, history. Yeah,

3236
02:57:41,320 --> 02:57:45,760
Speaker 1: it's it's a time. Um okay, uh, well we got

3237
02:57:45,800 --> 02:57:51,000
Speaker 1: any we got any any plugables? What do we what

3238
02:57:51,080 --> 02:57:54,000
Speaker 1: do we do. At the end of episodes, Sophie, where

3239
02:57:54,000 --> 02:57:56,960
Speaker 1: are we? Thank you? Are we? Thank you for listening.

3240
02:57:57,360 --> 02:58:00,280
Speaker 1: We'll be back on a day at a time. Maybe

3241
02:58:01,440 --> 02:58:04,440
Speaker 1: we're not hearing you, Sophie, I think you're muted. I'm

3242
02:58:04,480 --> 02:58:09,640
Speaker 1: not muted. I'm not muted. Oh, there we go. I'm

3243
02:58:09,680 --> 02:58:13,080
Speaker 1: not muted. I haven't remuted the whole time. We didn't

3244
02:58:13,160 --> 02:58:19,960
Speaker 1: hear you. That's so weird. I said, we'll be back

3245
02:58:20,080 --> 02:58:22,920
Speaker 1: on a day or a time, and yeah, at some

3246
02:58:23,040 --> 02:58:27,080
Speaker 1: point we'll be back. Find us then, uh, and find

3247
02:58:27,160 --> 02:58:29,800
Speaker 1: us tomorrow unless this comes out on Friday, in which

3248
02:58:29,879 --> 02:58:32,920
Speaker 1: case is going to Friday. Eat with your family. The

3249
02:58:32,959 --> 02:58:37,040
Speaker 1: ones who this is dropping on. Adopt a cat, Adopt

3250
02:58:37,120 --> 02:58:41,720
Speaker 1: two cats, maybe four cats. Adopt four cats. Yeah, get

3251
02:58:41,760 --> 02:58:44,000
Speaker 1: a number of cats greater than the number you have

3252
02:58:44,240 --> 02:58:59,520
Speaker 1: and put them in your house. We'll see you one Monday. Hey,

3253
02:58:59,600 --> 02:59:02,720
Speaker 1: we'll be act Monday, with more episodes every week from

3254
02:59:02,760 --> 02:59:05,800
Speaker 1: now until the heat death of the universe. It could happen.

3255
02:59:05,879 --> 02:59:08,160
Speaker 1: Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For more

3256
02:59:08,240 --> 02:59:11,000
Speaker 1: podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone

3257
02:59:11,040 --> 02:59:12,840
Speaker 1: media dot com, or check us out on the I

3258
02:59:12,959 --> 02:59:16,200
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts,

3259
02:59:16,840 --> 02:59:18,920
Speaker 1: you can find sources for it could happen here. Updated

3260
02:59:19,000 --> 02:59:22,480
Speaker 1: monthly at cool Zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks

3261
02:59:22,520 --> 02:59:25,920
Speaker 1: for listening. Give us the oper attention. We need everything

3262
02:59:26,000 --> 02:59:29,439
Speaker 1: you've got fast. Waiting on Reparations would be the podcast.

3263
02:59:29,680 --> 02:59:32,840
Speaker 1: Tune in every Thursday politics and wordplay. We fight for

3264
02:59:32,959 --> 02:59:35,000
Speaker 1: the people because they got us in the worst way.

3265
02:59:35,200 --> 02:59:38,200
Speaker 1: From the Hill Cooper, the Bombay to cant from the

3266
02:59:38,360 --> 02:59:41,520
Speaker 1: left on Clave to what the neo kanz. Every Thursday

3267
02:59:41,920 --> 02:59:44,360
Speaker 1: the heading conversation to break us off with some break

3268
02:59:44,360 --> 02:59:48,920
Speaker 1: because we're waiting. Listen to Waiting on Reparations on the

3269
02:59:49,000 --> 02:59:51,960
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get

3270
02:59:52,000 --> 03:00:05,880
Speaker 1: your podcasts. Mama, what does the chicken say? Uh? What giraffe?

3271
03:00:05,959 --> 03:00:09,480
Speaker 1: Rarely giraffe? Giraffe. You're not gonna get it all right.

3272
03:00:09,720 --> 03:00:11,640
Speaker 1: Just make sure you know the big stuff, like making

3273
03:00:11,680 --> 03:00:13,760
Speaker 1: sure your kids are buckled correctly in the right seat

3274
03:00:13,800 --> 03:00:16,840
Speaker 1: for their agent's eyes. Get it right. Visits n h

3275
03:00:17,560 --> 03:00:21,000
Speaker 1: s A dot gov slash The Right Seat brought to

3276
03:00:21,040 --> 03:00:23,640
Speaker 1: you by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. In the

3277
03:00:23,720 --> 03:00:26,560
Speaker 1: ad Council, Raffie is the voice of some of the

3278
03:00:26,720 --> 03:00:32,600
Speaker 1: happiest songs of our generation Baby Lugga? So who is

3279
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Speaker 1: the man behind Baby Bluga? Every human being wants to

3280
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Speaker 1: feel respected. When we start with young children, all good

3281
03:00:41,400 --> 03:00:44,840
Speaker 1: things can grow from there. I'm Chris Garcia, Comedian, new

3282
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Speaker 1: dad and host of Finding Raffie, a new podcast from

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03:00:47,879 --> 03:00:51,080
Speaker 1: My Heart Radio and Fatherly. Listen every Tuesday on the

3284
03:00:51,160 --> 03:00:53,920
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts.