1 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: For over thirty five years, Karen Conti has fought for 2 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 1: others from the Circuit Court of Cook County to the 3 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:24,639 Speaker 1: US Supreme Court. She has fought for her clients. She's 4 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: a master negotiator to y'all. She can quickly and creatively 5 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 1: settle all kinds of matters, and she does it quick 6 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: so she doesn't cost people a whole lot more money. 7 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:40,239 Speaker 1: Karen has handled numerous high crime cases. She has a 8 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:45,599 Speaker 1: reputation as a fierce advocate. She is respected by judges 9 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: and fellow lawyers alike. She's an attorney, She's had a 10 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 1: radio show that she hosts, she's a legal commentator, and 11 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: she's an author. Because you know, she's got so much 12 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: free time. She is with us tonight to talk about 13 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: her most famous client. Y'all please help me welcome Karen 14 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 1: Conti to Zone seven. 15 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 2: Hi Cheryl, how are you, honey? 16 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 3: I am fabulous. 17 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:16,759 Speaker 1: I could not wait to get you on Zone seven 18 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: after I met you in Savannah at the Grave Face conference. 19 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: Your presentation knocked me out. 20 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 2: Well, thank you. It was fun. It was fun to 21 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 2: be in Savannah. It was fun to share my dacy 22 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 2: experience with all the interested crime buffs down there. And 23 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 2: it was wonderful to meet you, and. 24 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: You know, you had so many details about John Wayne 25 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: Gacy and how you advocated for certain things for him 26 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: that we're going to get into in a minute. But 27 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: there was a couple I had never heard anywhere, never 28 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: read it, nobody ever talked about it. And when I 29 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: was listening to you, I thought, I can't be the 30 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: only person that doesn't know this, and people need to 31 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 1: know because I was captivated by the way you championed 32 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: fighting against the death penalty and you found a unique 33 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 1: way to do it. Because when they first approached you 34 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,920 Speaker 1: about John Wayne Gacy, what was your thoughts about that 35 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: case and how you were going to draw and help 36 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: defend him in any way. 37 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 2: I think your listeners have to first understand that when 38 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 2: Gaysey was committing his crimes and when he was finally 39 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 2: apprehended and eventually convicted and sentenced to death, I was 40 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 2: in high school. I was a young kid, and so 41 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 2: all these years later, fourteen years has passed and I'm 42 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 2: a lawyer, not a seasoned lawyer. I was a pretty 43 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:45,959 Speaker 2: young lawyer, and I heard of the radio that Gaysey 44 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 2: was going to be executed, and I thought to myself, gosh, 45 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:52,360 Speaker 2: our state hasn't executed people in a long time. I 46 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 2: had done some criminal work, but nothing on the terms 47 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 2: of thirty three men and boys buried under someone's house, 48 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 2: and certainly never death penalty case. So I thought to myself, strangely, God, 49 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 2: would that be funny if Gasey called Well. A few 50 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:09,920 Speaker 2: days later, he did, and he had a lawsuit that 51 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 2: was a civil lawsuit that he wanted me and my 52 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 2: partner to handle. So he was being sued by the 53 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 2: prison for room and board, which under Illinois law they 54 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:21,799 Speaker 2: can do. If you're making money as a prisoner, they 55 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 2: can sue you to recoup the cost of your room 56 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 2: and board. Now, Gaysey, why would he be worried about 57 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 2: money when he had a date with death. I didn't 58 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 2: really understand, But Cheryl, I could not pass up the 59 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 2: opportunity to go down to death row in bottom of 60 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 2: the state of Illinois and meet the most evil serial 61 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 2: killer of all time. And that's what I did. 62 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 3: I couldn't agree more. You had to go. 63 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 1: But you know, I just want to briefly talk about 64 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: Gaysy for a minute. If there's anybody listening that really 65 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: doesn't know who she's talking about. John Wayne Gacy was 66 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: a serial killer who righted Orchard and murdered at least 67 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: thirty three young men and boys near Chicago. He had 68 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: a moniker, the Killer Clown, because he would do these 69 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: like public performances in clown makeup before he was ever caught. 70 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 3: I'm sure most. 71 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 1: Of you have seen some of the paintings and all 72 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: that that he did. Gasey committed the crimes he was 73 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:28,600 Speaker 1: convicted of inside his home for the most part, and 74 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: like Karen's already said, buried the bodies in the crawl 75 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: space of his home, most of them, not all of them. 76 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: So you get a call from John Wayne Gacy, you 77 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 1: know the deal. You know what's up. You've known about 78 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 1: him since high school. You know he's being sued, you 79 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: know he's looking at the death penalty. But this is 80 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: what you said at the conference that I found so engaging, 81 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: and I'm quoting you. This was a chance to stand 82 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: up against the death penalty. You have the word of 83 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:04,600 Speaker 1: the worst in a case you could not win, and 84 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:09,159 Speaker 1: you said you leaved at the chance. So again for 85 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 1: me listening to you, I was like, you know, for 86 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: somebody like yourself who was against the death penalty, this 87 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 1: was the greatest platform for you to make known how 88 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: you felt about it and again to fight for the 89 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 1: worst of the worst at that time, for sure. 90 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, I've always been against the death penalty, 91 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 2: even when I was young. I would fight my parents, 92 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:36,919 Speaker 2: who were both in favor of it, and I'd fight 93 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 2: and I'd tell them, no, it's not fair. You can't 94 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 2: kill people for killing people. It's just not right. But 95 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 2: I never even thought I would ever get close to 96 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 2: a death penalty case. I mean, they're very rare, contrary 97 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 2: to what you see in the news, and I never 98 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 2: thought i'd be anywhere near having the ability to do it. 99 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 2: And when I realized that, when I went down to 100 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 2: visit Gaesy for the silly civil matter that he wanted 101 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:04,119 Speaker 2: us to represent him in, I realized that it wasn't 102 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 2: just about Gaycy. I mean Gaysey was going to get 103 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:09,600 Speaker 2: the death penalty. If there's a person in the country 104 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 2: at that time who was, you know, deserving of the 105 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 2: death penalty, if anyone is, it was John Wayne Gacy. 106 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 2: I mean, he was a sadistic, horrible killer who was 107 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 2: not remorseful at all and certainly guilty. But there were 108 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:24,720 Speaker 2: other people on death row that needed to be fight, 109 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:27,720 Speaker 2: have a fight fought. You know, there were people who 110 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 2: were there with actual innocent claims. There were people there 111 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,359 Speaker 2: who were racially discriminated against. There were people there, you know, 112 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 2: who had horrible lawyers who fell asleep during their trials. 113 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 2: So when you're advocating for someone on death row, you're 114 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:43,840 Speaker 2: really making arguments that you're hoping are going to save 115 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 2: other people who might actually be innocent. As I said, 116 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 2: so I realized that I'm actually representing a bigger picture 117 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 2: than just this guy sitting in front of me. I'm 118 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 2: representing a cause, and I'm able to do that, as 119 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,280 Speaker 2: you said, in a very public forum, where I'm able 120 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 2: to get my message across and maybe convince just a 121 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 2: few people that the death penalty is not what we 122 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 2: should be doing this country. Frankly, I represented Gacy for 123 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 2: seven months. I worked very very hard. I donated a 124 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 2: lot of time to the cause, and I don't think 125 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 2: I'll ever do this again. I just don't think I 126 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 2: have it in me to continue to represent people on 127 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 2: death row. And in Illinois we've abolished it. As of 128 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 2: twenty eleven, we don't have the death penalty, and many 129 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 2: states are abolishing it now. But you know, I donated 130 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 2: to the cause, and it took a lot out of me. 131 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 2: It took a lot out of my practice, it took 132 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 2: a lot out of my family and finances, and so 133 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 2: I feel like I did the right thing, and I'm 134 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 2: glad I did it, and I did it I think 135 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 2: with zest and I with my strongest advocacy possible. But 136 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 2: I'm done with those cases. 137 00:07:56,520 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: I don't think people always recognize because they'll be like, oh, 138 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: that's the defense attorney. You know, they just want to 139 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: represent guilty people, and that's not true. You want to 140 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 1: make sure that people's rights are protected and everything is 141 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: done correctly. That's the point of the whole thing, the 142 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 1: checks of balance, the system that we've got. But when 143 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 1: you talk about the toll that it took on you, 144 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: I think people need to understand and respect that because 145 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: even though it was taking this toll, you didn't ditch him. 146 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 2: No, I was fighting for his life, and I take 147 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 2: that very seriously. I mean, it is an honor to 148 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 2: be entrusted with somebody's life. And even though I knew 149 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 2: my heart of hearts that this was going nowhere and 150 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 2: he was going to be executed by all means possible. 151 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 2: I mean, it didn't matter when or where it was 152 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 2: going to happen, but I was going to give him 153 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 2: a fighting chance, and I was going this guy was 154 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,680 Speaker 2: on my watch, and I felt very strongly that I 155 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,679 Speaker 2: needed to do every single thing possible, even if it 156 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 2: was really in a way that wasn't going to make 157 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:08,319 Speaker 2: a difference. And you know what you said about being 158 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 2: part of the system, you know, I feel strongly like 159 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 2: I don't do justice that people say, well, what about 160 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 2: the victims and what about justice? And hey, I don't 161 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 2: do justice. You know who does justice? Everybody? The police 162 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 2: and the prosecutors do their job, and they gather evidence 163 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 2: and their advocates for the state. If the defense lawyer 164 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 2: is zealous and goes down all leaves and puts the 165 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 2: state before, you know, to their burden of proof. The 166 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:39,439 Speaker 2: judge is impartial, the jury follows the jury instructions. If 167 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:42,839 Speaker 2: all of that happens, everyone does their job, then justice 168 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 2: usually gets done. So if I don't do my job, 169 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:51,719 Speaker 2: then guess what someone might walk who really committed the crimes. Now, 170 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 2: in Gasey's case, that wasn't the issue. It was certainly guilty, 171 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 2: but in many cases like in Illinois, we had thirteen 172 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 2: people walk off death row in a period of about 173 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 2: ten years. Twelve were executed, thirteen walked off of death row. 174 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:10,960 Speaker 2: That's on actual innocence. So we get it wrong, and 175 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 2: my job is to make sure that we don't get 176 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 2: it wrong. 177 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: Everybody's got to play their position, and they've got to 178 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 1: do it with integrity. And like you said, little Zesto, 179 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 1: don't hurt either, A little passion ton't hurt. But it's 180 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:29,439 Speaker 1: got to be above born. It's got to be correct. 181 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: So I agree with you one hundred percent. Now I 182 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 1: am curious when you were younger, where did this come 183 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: from about the death penalty? 184 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:41,439 Speaker 3: Do you know, especially since you. 185 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 1: Were, you know, fighting with your parents arguing because they 186 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 1: were for the death penalty. 187 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 2: You know, I don't know that. I will tell you 188 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:51,319 Speaker 2: I'm a middle child, and I think that explains a 189 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:54,559 Speaker 2: lot of things in life, their order of birth, because 190 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 2: you know, you know, my brother got away with everything 191 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 2: because he was older and he was a guy, and 192 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 2: my sister was babied, and so I was the one, 193 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 2: you know, who got the raw and you know whatever. 194 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,679 Speaker 2: I'm sure I need therapy because of that, But I 195 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 2: think that's one of the reasons I became a lawyer 196 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 2: because I felt like I needed to stick up for myself. 197 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 2: And you know, I have this funny memory, and it's 198 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 2: in my book. My dad was saying, Oh, this person 199 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 2: on the TV or radio should be executed. He killed people. 200 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 2: And I said, Dad, that makes no sense. It's like 201 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 2: if I have a messy room and you want to 202 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,679 Speaker 2: come and punish me by messing up my room. That 203 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 2: makes no sense. That's not how you punish someone. And 204 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:36,319 Speaker 2: I remember him making that argument, and I remember him 205 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:38,439 Speaker 2: rolling his eyes. I'm sure he thought, oh, gosh, she's 206 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 2: on her way to law school there. 207 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 1: Yes, now that was an excellent argument. I mean, it 208 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: does not make any sense. If you want a clean room, 209 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: why would you make it worse than it was. 210 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 3: I get it. I get it. 211 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 1: So let me talk about your book for a second. So, 212 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: y'all the book that she wrote, Killing Tom with John 213 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 1: Wayne Gacy, defendant America's evil serial killer. 214 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 2: I really feel like the book is about my relationship 215 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 2: with John Gacy, which was very interesting at times body 216 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 2: and the times funny and at times really sad and tense. 217 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 2: But it's more about the human spirit. It's more about 218 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 2: being resilient, about taking on something, about being curious and 219 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 2: taking that curiosity to another level, and to do things 220 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 2: with dignity and preparation, and to come out on the 221 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 2: other side in a better place, understanding people, being compassionate, empathetic. 222 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 2: These are all really good things, and I think a 223 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 2: lot of us can learn that from life experiences. And 224 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 2: my book is an explanation of how that happened to me. 225 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 1: Tell everybody when you started to write that, and how 226 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 1: that came about. 227 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 2: It was during COVID, and you know, I just had 228 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:59,199 Speaker 2: some time. I had some production company that did stuff 229 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 2: for Netflix calling me up and saying, we want to 230 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 2: do a docuseries. And I thought, oh gosh, you know, 231 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 2: I want to write my truth. I want my truth 232 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 2: to be out there before anyone puts it on a screen, 233 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 2: even if I never do it. I want to write 234 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 2: this book. I've had it in me all this time 235 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 2: has gone by, and now it's COVID. I've got some 236 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,440 Speaker 2: time at home, and so I started writing. And I 237 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 2: will tell you it was so wonderful to write. And 238 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 2: I write for a living as a lawyer, we do 239 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:29,680 Speaker 2: a lot of writing, but this to me was so 240 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 2: special because I'm looking back now twenty eight years after 241 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 2: this pivotal point in my life where I took on 242 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 2: this horrific case and I got all this attention, and 243 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 2: not all of it was good. In fact, most of 244 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 2: it was bad. That changed me, made me more resilient, 245 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 2: changed my career, and it was really interesting to look 246 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 2: back in retrospect. And I think you know your listeners, 247 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 2: and I don't know if you've had this situation where 248 00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 2: there was a time in your life where something changed, 249 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 2: was you were fired from a job where someone died 250 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 2: who was close to you, something not maybe necessarily very good, 251 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 2: and it changes you. It changes your whole perspective. It 252 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 2: makes you more confident and resilient. And I realized when 253 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 2: I was writing this book and putting it into words 254 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 2: that that's exactly what this experience did, and that even 255 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 2: though it was negative at the time, it really turned 256 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 2: out to be a very very good thing for me 257 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 2: professionally and personally. 258 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 3: Because you were in your twenties. 259 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's young for a lawyer. 260 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 3: No, it's young, it's young. 261 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 2: And so yeah, it was a very young age to 262 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 2: take on this kind of responsibility, and I think it 263 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 2: just changed me forever, and writing this book really put 264 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 2: it in perspective for me. 265 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 1: You know, my son is twenty three and he's an 266 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: investigator with the Public Defender's Office for the State of Georgia. 267 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: And I know the first time he was headed out 268 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 1: to me somebody about his same age at the prison 269 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: who was being accused of murder, he came home different. 270 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 1: I mean it was an immediate I'm looking across the 271 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 1: table at somebody that looks like me, same age, similar experiences. 272 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: But this kid took a hard right where my son 273 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 1: took a hard left. And that's the only difference, you know, 274 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: just one decision different. And you know he always wants 275 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 1: to fight for the underdog, always thinks a second, third, 276 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: fourth chance could be the difference in somebody, you know, 277 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: really getting their life back to where they could be 278 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 1: the person they were meant to be in the first. 279 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 3: Place, if that makes any sense. 280 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: But I hear you, and one question I wanted to 281 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: ask you because of that, because I know what happened 282 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: with Huck the minute you walk in there, and you 283 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: know you are uber aware that you're talking to a 284 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: serial killer. 285 00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 3: What was he like? 286 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 2: I had read all the books because I am as 287 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 2: serial was always a serial killer. I don't know what 288 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 2: you want to call it. That's to say a fan, 289 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 2: That's not the right way to say it. But I 290 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 2: was always fascinated by serial killers. So I had read 291 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 2: everything about him, and I read all the psychiatric reports 292 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 2: after we were going to go down there, because I 293 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 2: was very interested in knowing what was idealing with who 294 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 2: was this person? You know, he was a narcissist, a 295 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 2: borderline personality, you know, did he have a split personality 296 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 2: as he alleged? So I read all this stuff. But 297 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 2: when you go there and you go to death Row, 298 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 2: first of all, you're not behind a plexiglass window, which 299 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 2: is what I thought. I envisioned that whole movie scene 300 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 2: where you're looking at someone through glass. But no, you're 301 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 2: actually in a bullpen with all of the killers on 302 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 2: death Row, who are some of the most vicious killers 303 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 2: you know, in the world. And Gacy's standing there and 304 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 2: he's so unimposing. He's five 't nine, he's been in 305 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 2: prison for fourteen years. He's pale, he's kind of dumpy. 306 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 2: He's very great, gracious, he's glib, he shakes your hand, 307 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 2: introduces himself, and I realized that, you know, whatever was 308 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:13,160 Speaker 2: inside of him to commit these horrific crimes. You cannot 309 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 2: rectify that when you're looking at him, because he's engaging, 310 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:21,120 Speaker 2: he's charming, he's funny, he says the right things. He's intelligent, 311 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,119 Speaker 2: he's listening to you, he's responding to you. He's like 312 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 2: your favorite uncle sitting on the lazy boy. And you 313 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 2: can't you can't have this picture of what he did 314 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 2: to these kids in your head because it makes no sense. 315 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:38,159 Speaker 2: And he didn't scare me at all. Remember when I 316 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 2: wasn't his type of course, and I knew he had 317 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 2: a purpose for me, so he wasn't going to harm me. 318 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 2: But I didn't have the chills thinking, who else do 319 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:52,159 Speaker 2: I know in my life who appears to be normal 320 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 2: on the outside and yet on the inside is this 321 00:17:55,400 --> 00:18:00,119 Speaker 2: vicious evil? You know, murder? Do I know anybody like that? 322 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 2: And if I do, how do I know that? 323 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 1: When you're meeting him, are you also because your mind 324 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:11,239 Speaker 1: is very quick, I mean, you are extremely intelligent, and 325 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:13,879 Speaker 1: I feel like you know you're one of those people your. 326 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 3: Mind just can't shut off. 327 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: But as you're talking to him, like I'm seeing him, 328 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,199 Speaker 1: he's not this monster that I thought he was going 329 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 1: to be maybe I can play to the jury, Maybe 330 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:29,479 Speaker 1: I can, you know, get some things done that other people, 331 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 1: you know, wouldn't even have tried. Is that going through 332 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 1: your mind at all? Or are you just laser focused 333 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:35,360 Speaker 1: on him? 334 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 2: I was really just laser focused on him. And remember 335 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 2: I had no experience with death penalty cases, and we 336 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 2: had a couple of other lawyers on our team who 337 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 2: were very experienced, and so I knew that what I 338 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:50,680 Speaker 2: needed to do is make a connection with him. I 339 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:52,640 Speaker 2: knew that he was going to be difficult to deal 340 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 2: with because he was oppositional in a lot of ways. 341 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 2: I knew I needed to get his trust, and as 342 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 2: a female was interesting because he was much more engaged 343 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 2: with me than he was with anyone. I was Geesee's 344 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 2: only female attorney in all of the years he went 345 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 2: through his legal process, and I realized he really liked women. 346 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 2: He liked his mother very much and got along with 347 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 2: her when she was alive. He had two sisters he loved, 348 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 2: he had two wives then he got along with so 349 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 2: he and I I wanted to bond with him, and 350 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 2: it wasn't until I took the six hour drive back 351 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:28,679 Speaker 2: up to Chicago and sat on my law desk, you 352 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:32,199 Speaker 2: know where I thought, Okay, now it's the strategy, and 353 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,199 Speaker 2: along with the other lawyers, we thought about all the 354 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 2: possibilities and all the possible arguments and came up with 355 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:40,160 Speaker 2: a game plan there. 356 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:46,639 Speaker 1: So here you are representing evil. Was there any fallout 357 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 1: through a family member or friends, or even just somebody 358 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: that focused on gaysy and his guilt that targeted you 359 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 1: for any reason. Did you have any of that sort 360 00:19:57,720 --> 00:19:58,439 Speaker 1: of experience. 361 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:02,159 Speaker 2: Oh, my gosh, I mean, and it really has never ended. 362 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 2: Death threats. I had a bomb threat that emptied out 363 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 2: a large bank building where I was officing. I had 364 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:16,120 Speaker 2: continuing bizarre sexual pieces of correspondence that continued for years 365 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 2: and years. I had judges pulled me aside in chambers 366 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 2: and tell me that I was making a fool and 367 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 2: a mockery out of the court system. I was kicked 368 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 2: out of a restaurant in Chicago suburbs because I was 369 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,239 Speaker 2: causing too much controversy because people knew who who I 370 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:37,119 Speaker 2: was representing gaycy It's endless. I had ketchup dumped on 371 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 2: my doorstep in my nice suburb. It was it did clients. 372 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,400 Speaker 2: Almost all my clients basically quit because they didn't want 373 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 2: to deal with Gaycy's lawyer, and they didn't they were 374 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 2: ashamed that I was representing a serial killer. So yeah, 375 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 2: it was negative and it still continues to be negative. 376 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:00,640 Speaker 2: I think now that Gaycy's deceased, I think it's easier 377 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 2: for people to deal with me because now instead of 378 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 2: saying how could you do it, now they're saying, well, 379 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 2: what was he like? I want to listen to your story. 380 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: But you know, it is a learning opportunity. Not many 381 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 1: people had that chance to sit with him, to get 382 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 1: to know him. Like you said, you had to bond 383 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,679 Speaker 1: with him to put together a plan. So I figured 384 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,639 Speaker 1: there had to be people out there that would target 385 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 1: you because again they couldn't get to him, but you know, 386 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 1: they knew where you were at least fifty hours a week. 387 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 2: Well that's a really good point, and you can get 388 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 2: upset about that, but as a lawyer, you get identified 389 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 2: with your client, whether you like it or not. And 390 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 2: you're right, no one could access Gacy, but they could 391 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:47,880 Speaker 2: access me, and they could superimpose all of their bad 392 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 2: feelings and all of you know, and there's a lot 393 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,679 Speaker 2: of people were harmed sexually by sexual abuse and different things. 394 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,439 Speaker 2: And I could see people like that lashing out to 395 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 2: me and bleming me instead of understanding that I'm really 396 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 2: just representing him, not to get him out. Never wanted 397 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 2: to get him out. He doesn't deserve to walk amongst us, 398 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 2: but really just to stop the death penalty from happening. 399 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,640 Speaker 2: But I don't blame the people who blamed me, because 400 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 2: people should be angry at the John Gacies of the world. 401 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,679 Speaker 2: You know, what he did was was horrific. I just 402 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,239 Speaker 2: asked that you understand that I'm doing my job, and 403 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 2: my doing my job is going to help in the 404 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:30,679 Speaker 2: long run by making sure the system works correctly. But 405 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 2: I understand it. I don't blame them for lashing out, 406 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:35,160 Speaker 2: because that's what happens. 407 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,199 Speaker 1: One of the things that struck me the most listening 408 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:47,120 Speaker 1: to you talk is that you never turned your back, 409 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:51,199 Speaker 1: You never quit because he did have a mama, he 410 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: did have. 411 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 3: And Stale has a sister. 412 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 1: There was something that you fought for so that the 413 00:22:57,880 --> 00:22:59,439 Speaker 1: family could get it back. 414 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 3: Could you please talk a little bit about that. 415 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, this was a bizarre situation. So when Gasey was 416 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 2: getting ready to be executed, the family wanted to have 417 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,479 Speaker 2: his brain examined after death. They wanted to know if 418 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 2: there was something organic or some damage that was done. 419 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 2: Gacy had had two very serious head injuries when he 420 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 2: was a child, and if you study serial killers, you 421 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 2: know that a lot of violent people have had these 422 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 2: kinds of trauma to the head. That doesn't mean if 423 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 2: you had a head trauma you're going to turn into 424 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,439 Speaker 2: a serial killer, but it's a very common thing for 425 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 2: death row inmates. So a psychiatrist in Chicago volunteered to 426 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 2: do it, and she did it, and she came up 427 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 2: with a conclusion that there was nothing out of the 428 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 2: ordinary with Gacy's brain. Well, she never gave it back, 429 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 2: and flash ahead like twenty nine years later, the sister 430 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,439 Speaker 2: hears that this psychiatrist is getting ready to sell it 431 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 2: for a million dollars to some crime museum in Las Vegas, 432 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:03,159 Speaker 2: and she was just horrified that her brother's brain was 433 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,919 Speaker 2: on the auction block. Sure, and she had said, Karen, 434 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,679 Speaker 2: can you please get this brain back? And I said sure. 435 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 2: So I started writing letters to the psychiatrist and she 436 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 2: was ignoring me, and I was getting more and more threatening. 437 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:18,840 Speaker 2: I'm like, you can't do this, this is unethical. You 438 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 2: can't sell a brain. And finally the brain was delivered 439 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 2: to my office in a box that said do not 440 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 2: tip over the side up and there in my office 441 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 2: was Gacy's brand. And I will tell you my employees 442 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 2: would not go in my office for the next week. 443 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 3: It is bizarre. I mean it's bizarre. 444 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 1: It's one of those things like a carnival barker, like 445 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 1: you want to see it, but you don't want to 446 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:51,400 Speaker 1: see it. But it's almost like you can't almost help yourself. 447 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:52,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know. 448 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 1: And people study all kinds of things, and I know 449 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,640 Speaker 1: there's tons of people with the NFL even they want 450 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,120 Speaker 1: to study these brains and get these injuries and try 451 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 1: to figure out if they can say something to help people. 452 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: But no, that would be an unusual delivery, Karen. 453 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 2: But you know, and I will say that anything related 454 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 2: to a serial killer, it's amazing. You know, you understand this, 455 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:19,399 Speaker 2: that people want his artwork, people want his last signature, people, 456 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:21,680 Speaker 2: people want to talk to me because I had a 457 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 2: connection with him. You know, it's just I'm a legal 458 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,359 Speaker 2: novelty and I used to kind of get offended by that, 459 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 2: thinking like, oh gosh, my whole career I'm going to 460 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 2: be known as Gaycy's lawyer, but you know what it is, 461 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:38,400 Speaker 2: what it is, It became I am who I am. 462 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 2: You know, in part this was part of my history. 463 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,440 Speaker 2: And I understand that people are fascinated and will continue 464 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 2: to be fascinated. We're never going to hear the end 465 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 2: of John Gacy. They're going to be more books and 466 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 2: more movies. And I just take that and stride because 467 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 2: that's the way the world. We're fascinated by these people. 468 00:25:57,800 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 3: Well, you know. 469 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,920 Speaker 1: Another thing about it never ended. You and I both 470 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 1: agree there's more victims out there. 471 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 2: I absolutely believe that, absolutely. And one of the things 472 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 2: that I did as part of the defense was Geezy 473 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 2: kept telling me I was out of town during some 474 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 2: of these murders. We could talk about other perpetrators as well, 475 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 2: but so did I got his records that were meticulously kept, 476 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,400 Speaker 2: so he had records of where he was in Wisconsin 477 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 2: and like Portland, Oregon, and I had all his records 478 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 2: for his hotel stays. And sure enough, you know he 479 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 2: was out of town. And this was right in the 480 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 2: middle of the crime spree where he was ramping up. 481 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 2: And you can't tell me that while he was doing 482 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:44,640 Speaker 2: all of this and spending time in more rural areas 483 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,919 Speaker 2: that he wasn't continuing to do it while he was away. 484 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,440 Speaker 2: Think about it, it would have been easier for him 485 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 2: to abduct young men and boys because no one knew 486 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 2: who he was. It would have been easier to hide 487 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:59,359 Speaker 2: the bodies in these less populated areas. And at the time, 488 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 2: we didn't have the databases that connected missing boys with 489 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 2: different people. So you know, one of these days, some 490 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 2: podcaster is going to get those records and is going 491 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,400 Speaker 2: to go up to Wisconsin or Portland, Oregon, or Florida 492 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 2: and is going to track if there were any boys 493 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,640 Speaker 2: that went missing during that time period and maybe track 494 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 2: them to Gacy. Of course, will never know definitively if 495 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,360 Speaker 2: Gacy was the perpetrator. But my guess is that you're 496 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 2: going to find missing boys during those time periods. 497 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 1: I agree one hundred percent, and it's going to be 498 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 1: just like you said, it's going to be some average citizen, 499 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 1: not a detective, that puts these pieces together, because I 500 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:43,160 Speaker 1: think they're there. When you talk about the meticulous notes 501 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,439 Speaker 1: and charts and maps, I mean, he kept detailed records 502 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 1: of his business and everything else. So when he said 503 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: he was out of town. He was, he was, He 504 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: absolutely was there. 505 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 2: There's no question about it. 506 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,680 Speaker 1: And Karen, you mentioned just then you kind of slipped 507 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 1: it in, but you said and there could be additional perpetrators. 508 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 3: Will you talk about that a little bit. 509 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 2: Yes, Gasey was out of town during some of the 510 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 2: times that the thirty three went missing, So the prosecution 511 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 2: narrowed down the time when some of these kids went 512 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,640 Speaker 2: missing and were probably murdered. And even if you take 513 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 2: a few days before and a few days after, Gacy's 514 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 2: records showed that he was out of town. So what 515 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 2: does this mean what could have happened? Well, there were 516 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,360 Speaker 2: two young men living with Gaysey during this crime spree. 517 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,159 Speaker 2: Both of them were apparently having sex with him. They 518 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 2: were taking drugs from Gaysey. Gaysey was giving them money 519 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 2: and letting them live with him. They testified that they 520 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 2: dug the trenches under the call space. I can't believe 521 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 2: that those kids dug those trenches and did not know 522 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 2: why they were digging those trenches. Number one, Number two, 523 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,479 Speaker 2: there's no way that Gaysey, because he was so portly, 524 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 2: could get down there by himself to bury these kids. 525 00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 2: And so my understanding is that these kids helped bury 526 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 2: the bodies at the very minimum, but my guess is 527 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 2: that they also helped perpetrate some of these crimes and 528 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 2: maybe even perpetrated some of them when Gasey was out 529 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 2: of town. One other fact that leads me to this 530 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 2: conclusion is that there were two victims who got away, 531 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 2: and both of them said that there were additional people 532 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 2: in the room, lights going on and off like a camera, 533 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 2: and that there was at least one other person who 534 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 2: was perpetrating the sex acts on them. So my guess 535 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 2: is that it was those two boys, who are young 536 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 2: men who were living with Gaycy, you know, and so 537 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 2: that he probably groomed them, he probably had them help, 538 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 2: and they probably got a taste for it themselves. And 539 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 2: I think that Gaycy didn't commit all those crimes. Certainly 540 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 2: he committed most of them. But those two young men got. 541 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 1: Off and correct me if I'm wrong, But didn't one 542 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 1: of them commit suicide later? 543 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 2: That is absolutely correct. One of them committed suicide. The 544 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 2: other one was represented by a very powerful attorney. He 545 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 2: used to be a state's attorney in the Chicago area 546 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 2: and he's living a life in the suburbs. 547 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 1: And again I'm not saying because somebody committed suicide, it 548 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: was because of guilt, because he was involved. I was 549 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 1: just saying, he's not own the radar, so to speak, right. 550 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 1: I mean, both of those things could be true, but 551 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: I'm saying I wasn't inferring that. I wasn't saying that. 552 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: But it's something that you've got to take note of. 553 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: It's something you've got to recognize that that did, in 554 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 1: fact happen. 555 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 2: If you are groomed when you're a young person to 556 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 2: help a sexual predator and you feel compulsion to help him, 557 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 2: and then all of a sudden, Gacy's probably threatening them 558 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,240 Speaker 2: and saying you're now complicit and they feel like they 559 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,400 Speaker 2: can have to continue to do it. There's got to 560 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 2: be guilt there. I don't care who you are, and 561 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 2: it would make sense that someone could feel bad enough 562 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 2: about what they did to commit suicide. Again, you know, 563 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 2: we'll never know and connect the dots there. 564 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: You haven't just done Gacy. I mean, you've done other 565 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 1: incredible things. Do you want to talk about the US 566 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: Supreme Court or any other major thing you've been involved in. 567 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 2: I've handled a lot of cases and different types, and 568 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 2: I kind of like the fact that I've had this 569 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 2: varied career. I did argue for the US Supreme Court, 570 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,960 Speaker 2: and that was quite an experience because when you're at 571 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 2: that level, you're really advocating for a change in the law. 572 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 2: So and I've done things from all different aspects and 573 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 2: a lot of people. I talk about this in my 574 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 2: book about what about the victims? And again, I can't 575 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 2: be the coach, the baseball coach for both teams. I 576 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 2: can't be a defense lawyer and a victims advocate in 577 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 2: the same case, right, That makes no sense. But I 578 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 2: have represented victims my entire career. And I talk about 579 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 2: this case that I handled for this little girl who 580 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 2: was sexually abused by a very prominent neighbor and a 581 00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 2: very wealthy suburb. And she she knew exactly what this 582 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 2: guy did and she could tell the police, but the 583 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 2: police wouldn't bring charges because she was so young. I 584 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 2: was hired by the family to advocate for charges being brought, 585 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 2: and I went to the state's attorney and I advocated, 586 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 2: and I put the facts together and the evidence together, 587 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 2: and they ended up prosecuting this guy. So I was 588 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 2: on the side of the victim, and I was happy 589 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 2: when the guy was charged. I was happy when the 590 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 2: guy went away to prison, and I'm very proud of 591 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 2: the fact that I did that. So I represent people 592 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,240 Speaker 2: from all walks of life. People who are guilty, people 593 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 2: are not guilty, people who have done terrible things. And 594 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 2: this is what I do for a living. I take 595 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 2: every case and every client as it comes, and I 596 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 2: try to get the best result that I possibly can. 597 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: I've heard people say a thousand times like police officers 598 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 1: are supposed to hate defense attorneys until they need one, 599 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 1: and then it's a whole different picture. 600 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 3: Baby, No it is. 601 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 2: I was on a talk show once and the crowd 602 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 2: was getting ugly and they were boos me, and I 603 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 2: kind of turned and I looked at them and I said, listen, 604 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 2: you hate me, but your kid goes out having five 605 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,720 Speaker 2: beers and kills a family of five in their car. 606 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 2: Who are you going to call someone who thinks constitutional 607 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 2: rights are optional, someone who's going to be nice to 608 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 2: the to the prosecute, someone who's going to cave in 609 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 2: and go, yeah, go spend the rest of your life 610 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 2: in jail. No, no, no, you're gonna call me because 611 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 2: I'm going to fight, like hell, that's what you want? 612 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 3: And again, you said it so perfectly. All of us 613 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 3: have a job to do, all of us to stay. 614 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 1: In our lane, and it works if you work it 615 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 1: with integrity and ethically, it works. You know, sometimes I 616 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: get not so nice comments when I say things like, 617 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 1: you know, I love my job, and I do love 618 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 1: my job, and I get excited, you know, when the 619 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 1: phone goes off at three in the morning, and you know, 620 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 1: I want to be in the middle of it. I 621 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 1: want to go work it. I still have like an 622 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 1: adrenaline rush from it. And sometimes they'll say things like, well, 623 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,280 Speaker 1: you should be all about the victims all the time, 624 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,799 Speaker 1: but I can't be, and that's not my job, just 625 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 1: like you're saying, I can't sit with the family and 626 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 1: cry all the time. I've got to go find the evidence. 627 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 1: I've got to process a scene. I've got to be 628 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,480 Speaker 1: able to stay detached so I can look at it 629 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:32,440 Speaker 1: objectively and stay there as long as it takes. 630 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 3: I could be there four hours, i could be there 631 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 3: twelve hours. But if I'm not. 632 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 1: Excited by it, there's no way I could work it 633 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:39,439 Speaker 1: like that. 634 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:43,319 Speaker 2: Well, absolutely, And the other piece is that I would 635 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 2: not be human if I didn't think about the victims. 636 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 2: I mean, I will tell you that I've never had 637 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 2: a dream about John Wae Gacy, but I have this 638 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:54,720 Speaker 2: recurring dream that I talk about in my book about 639 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,239 Speaker 2: the last victim who is the reason that Casey was caught. 640 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:00,719 Speaker 2: He was this beautiful kid who was exactly my age. 641 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,720 Speaker 2: He would it would be my age right now, and 642 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 2: you know, his mother drove him to get a job 643 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,759 Speaker 2: with Gacy. The kid goes into the drug store and 644 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:14,640 Speaker 2: has never seen again. And it pains me to think 645 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,359 Speaker 2: about that. I think about it all the time, and 646 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 2: you know, how could I be human and not just 647 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 2: mourn for these people? But and you know, I said 648 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 2: at the very end, I'm not in favor of death penalty. 649 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 2: I didn't want Gaycy be executed, But you know what 650 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:34,439 Speaker 2: if his execution helped one family member move on, get 651 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,799 Speaker 2: some semblance of closure, no such thing in my view, 652 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 2: but you know, if it helped anybody, I'm happy for that. 653 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 3: Amen, And I agree with you. 654 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:47,280 Speaker 1: I mean, I have also gotten a lot of negative 655 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:49,280 Speaker 1: feedback because I get close to families. 656 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:51,880 Speaker 3: So you can't win if. 657 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 1: You say your distance or if you you know, become 658 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,439 Speaker 1: close to somebody that's a victim. You know, somebody's gonna 659 00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:58,360 Speaker 1: have something to say about it, but I think, to me, 660 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:01,360 Speaker 1: it's the human fact or just like you're talking about 661 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,120 Speaker 1: you could talk to John Wayne Gacy as. 662 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,240 Speaker 3: Though he was a human that needed your help. 663 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 1: You can also see the end result that if we're 664 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: ever going to use the death penality, here's your guy. 665 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,480 Speaker 1: You see it for what it is. And again our system, 666 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 1: which I think is the best in the world. You know, 667 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:20,839 Speaker 1: I'm honored to be a part of it every day, 668 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:21,879 Speaker 1: and I know you are too. 669 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,200 Speaker 2: I feel exactly the same way as you do. And 670 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:27,360 Speaker 2: you know, and one final piece that no one thinks 671 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:31,480 Speaker 2: about is Gaycy's family, and people say, oh, who cares, 672 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 2: you know what. They were traumatized. I became friendly with 673 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 2: his sister. His sister was the most shocked of anybody. 674 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 2: She could not believe that her brother was capable. He 675 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,760 Speaker 2: was generous and kind with her, nice to her kids, 676 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,880 Speaker 2: you know, she and she was traumatized. She felt guilt 677 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 2: that she didn't do something about it because she didn't know. 678 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,279 Speaker 2: She felt guilt about the families. She read about all 679 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,399 Speaker 2: the family members and she would just cry about it. 680 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,880 Speaker 2: And then when Gacy was execute, she lost her only brother. 681 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:07,719 Speaker 2: But didn't have the righteous ability to mourn because who 682 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 2: cares about the Gayzy family? You know, that's how it 683 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 2: was looked at. So you know, there are all kinds 684 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:16,560 Speaker 2: of victims in all kinds of ways, and the tragedy 685 00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 2: just goes on and on. I mean, there's not a 686 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:20,400 Speaker 2: room that I'm in with more than fifty people or 687 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:24,440 Speaker 2: someone wasn't affected by John Wayne Gacy. I'm serious about that. 688 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:29,280 Speaker 1: Oh, I believe you absolutely, especially in Chicago, no doubt. 689 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,879 Speaker 1: And you know, I watched the documentary that Gray Face did, 690 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:38,640 Speaker 1: and his sister said something that I think was pretty profound. 691 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 3: He said to her, I didn't kill all of them. 692 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,120 Speaker 1: But I think if he had not said that to her, 693 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:48,799 Speaker 1: I don't know that she would have ever believed it. 694 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:52,440 Speaker 2: That's exactly right, she wouldn't have believed it. 695 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:54,759 Speaker 1: It's hard for us to hear these facts and believe it, 696 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:56,759 Speaker 1: much less a family member. 697 00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 2: I mean, and even think about his wives and his kids. 698 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,080 Speaker 2: I mean, they had to move out town, they had 699 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:06,759 Speaker 2: changed their name. You know, the fallout. The fallout is 700 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 2: never ending, y'all. 701 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:09,799 Speaker 3: You need to go get this book. 702 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:13,640 Speaker 1: It will keep you up at night, literally for all 703 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 1: the right reasons. Killing time with John Wayne Gacy defending 704 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 1: America's most evil serial killer, Karen Countie. Thank you so 705 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 1: much for joining us on Zone seven. 706 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:27,960 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. 707 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:28,880 Speaker 3: I'm going to. 708 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,600 Speaker 1: End the way that I always do with a quote. 709 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,399 Speaker 1: He was basically your guy next door. He was very 710 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:39,839 Speaker 1: well liked and respected. People think of John Gasey as 711 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 1: this big, evil, mean person that had this scary persona, 712 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:49,719 Speaker 1: but it wasn't like that at all, retired investigator Michael Albreck. 713 00:38:50,680 --> 00:39:04,640 Speaker 1: I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone seven, aten as 714 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:05,160 Speaker 1: Po