Speaker 1: You you you know the board of your company when you
Speaker 1: should know them right and when you're sitting in the
Speaker 1: C suite or or have some kind of a role
Speaker 1: that requires that you interface with them on a regular
Speaker 1: basis or any basis, that's fine. Otherwise I assure you
Speaker 1: you will not become a member of the c suite
Speaker 1: if you spend your time trying to get to know
Speaker 1: your directors. You should try to spend your time getting
Speaker 1: to know your job. I'm well, look as this is
Speaker 1: black that green money, and I'm so excited to bring
Speaker 1: you this episode because I was there in real time
Speaker 1: when it happened. This is the conversation that happened at
Speaker 1: Afro Tech Executive in Brooklyn, and it was with the CEO,
Speaker 1: the former CEO of ze Rox, Miss Ursula Burns, who
Speaker 1: was CEO of Xerox from two thousand nine. She was
Speaker 1: the first black woman to be c O of a
Speaker 1: Fortune five company and the first woman to see another
Speaker 1: woman as head of a Fortune five visual company. Sister
Speaker 1: all around. Most pertinent to today's conversation is her board roles.
Speaker 1: Miss Burns sat on the boards of directors for more
Speaker 1: than fifteen companies, including Boston Scientific University of Rochester, m
Speaker 1: I T Corporation, American Express, Exim Mobile, Boolber, White Star,
Speaker 1: and more. During this conversation, which was held at a
Speaker 1: pro Tech executive Brooklyn, have you you had a recurring theme?
Speaker 1: You should not miss another apro tech executive. By the way,
Speaker 1: we're gonna be in d C in a couple of weeks.
Speaker 1: But anyway, back to today's conversation. She talked behind the
Speaker 1: Highles managing partner at Black Ops Adventures and founder of
Speaker 1: path Right. If you have any interests, listen to me.
Speaker 1: If you have any interest in one day sitting on
Speaker 1: a corporate board, listen. Keep your ears locked. And if
Speaker 1: you want to build a big company, listen, keep your
Speaker 1: ears locked. Because boards are where the decisions are made.
Speaker 1: Boards are where you where they decided. If you're gonna
Speaker 1: keep your job as CEO is a matter of fact.
Speaker 1: Understanding how they work is the best thing you can
Speaker 1: do with your next forty minutes. Give more. Welcome to
Speaker 1: Ursula Burns to see you. Welcome. Yeah, where's my cousin?
Speaker 1: Where's your cousin? Let's wait wait, where is she? Hi cousin?
Speaker 1: Thank you for being here. She's my cousin And I
Speaker 1: always call her my niece because she's so much younger.
Speaker 1: It's her cousin. How your girlfriend. Yeah, we're glad you're here. Hey,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being here today. You are
Speaker 1: again one of these amazing pioneers that has paved the
Speaker 1: way and been a model to folks like myself and
Speaker 1: all the women in this room. So I want to
Speaker 1: start by saying thank you so much for everything you've done,
Speaker 1: for being you. You know, I'm gonna give the real
Speaker 1: brief version because you've done so much that we don't
Speaker 1: have time to get into all that we want to
Speaker 1: hear from you directly. Okay, Okay, we go, but you know, um,
Speaker 1: your your legendary position as the CEO of Xerox and
Speaker 1: doing such a huge acquisition for them, and all the
Speaker 1: other things that you've been doing. We want to hear
Speaker 1: some of what you're doing today. UM. So I hope
Speaker 1: we'll get into it. So thank you so much. UM.
Speaker 1: We The last question we ended on I thought was
Speaker 1: very helpful, UM, which was um, the question was is
Speaker 1: it enough to be a black woman and be the director?
Speaker 1: And Merlin's answer was absolutely not. And if a if
Speaker 1: a person select you for a board just because of
Speaker 1: your demographics, that's not the board for you. So I
Speaker 1: think from the CEO UM perspective, what do constructive value
Speaker 1: add directors look like and how do they behave versus
Speaker 1: somebody who's kind of taking up airspace and and not
Speaker 1: helping the management team do their thing. Yeah, I heard
Speaker 1: the question the last couple of questions, and I must
Speaker 1: say I don't agree. Okay, I absolutely don't agree. Let's
Speaker 1: say this all the time. First of all, no company
Speaker 1: is going to come to you and say you're totally
Speaker 1: not a knowledgeable about anything to do with business. But
Speaker 1: but just because you happen to be black and a woman,
Speaker 1: were going to put you on the board. So that
Speaker 1: I mean, that's just not a viable company. So that
Speaker 1: I would, I would just that's not a thing that
Speaker 1: I mean unless they're absolutely dingdongs, which you wouldn't want
Speaker 1: to be with anywhere. But so if they've come to you,
Speaker 1: they found you, they look at some kind of a
Speaker 1: profile and the reason why you are the next person
Speaker 1: that they would pick is because you're black or a woman.
Speaker 1: I'd go just as quickly as not. For so long
Speaker 1: we have been excluded because of the way that we look,
Speaker 1: I absolutely tell you, I say this all the time.
Speaker 1: It's about damn time that we were included because of
Speaker 1: the way that we look. So I absolutely okay. Now,
Speaker 1: this whole thing about being on boards, I gotta say,
Speaker 1: this is the I've been on It's not always crack
Speaker 1: up to be guys, be careful here. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: good and it's fun, and it's all that stuff. You
Speaker 1: don't get anywhere near as much money as you think.
Speaker 1: It takes a ton of time. It's not doesn't always
Speaker 1: take a ton of time, but when it takes a
Speaker 1: ton of time, it takes a lot of time. And
Speaker 1: you can't say things like I'm busy. They're like, well,
Speaker 1: I mean that's the reason why you're sitting here. We
Speaker 1: want you to be busy on this right, not on
Speaker 1: other on other things. And sometimes it's just not fun.
Speaker 1: I mean, you you know you're going the boys of
Speaker 1: banks and insurance companies. Is that's not your thing? You
Speaker 1: sit there and try to figure out what that am
Speaker 1: I doing here? That's the and then the last is
Speaker 1: the group of people that you're with. Forget the management team,
Speaker 1: but the directors. If they're not worth your time, don't
Speaker 1: go because you'll it just isn't that much fun. It's
Speaker 1: the thing that we're all running after now. But that
Speaker 1: thing has been run through by white guys already, and
Speaker 1: now they're handing it to us and saying, women and
Speaker 1: you can do it right, we're coming. So I I
Speaker 1: actually I like boards. Yeah, I like boards. I don't
Speaker 1: get me wrong. It's an important thing to do. If
Speaker 1: you can do it, you gotta be unbelievably selective. Unbelievably selective.
Speaker 1: I mean, what are you selecting for. First of all,
Speaker 1: the team with people that you're gonna be sitting around
Speaker 1: the table with the other directors. Yeah. The second is
Speaker 1: the company. I mean, you know I've been on What
Speaker 1: are they doing? I mean, if you're not interested in
Speaker 1: what they're doing? You know some In the beginning, of course,
Speaker 1: I was highly just like everybody is here, I want
Speaker 1: to be on one. So I picked a road striping company.
Speaker 1: You know, the they they picked me. I didn't pick them,
Speaker 1: they picked me. I had been by the way. It was.
Speaker 1: It was fun. I ended up loving the guys. But
Speaker 1: the product, I mean it was it was glass beads
Speaker 1: for road striping. And I learned a lot from the company.
Speaker 1: But when they you know, we would go on plant
Speaker 1: tours and I be like, oh, what about doing so
Speaker 1: I'm making fun of it, but be careful, be aware
Speaker 1: that this sounds great, but it takes a lot of
Speaker 1: time and a lot of energy, and it takes a
Speaker 1: lot of your emotional time. And you you know, you've
Speaker 1: got to read stuff beforehand. You have to have some
Speaker 1: reason besides just saying I'm on one that you want
Speaker 1: to be involved. The last thing I'll say on this thing.
Speaker 1: If you can get on a private company, go board
Speaker 1: a pre I p O board. I would do it
Speaker 1: every single day before I go on a public company board.
Speaker 1: Every day you get paid more money, you get more
Speaker 1: involved in the company. The chances of getting rich are
Speaker 1: better in a public company. Literally, your compensation is contained
Speaker 1: and reported to everyone. Every single year. You can't make
Speaker 1: more than x l y money dollars. That's if you
Speaker 1: have one meeting or five meetings. Literally, the same amount
Speaker 1: of money goes whether you have one or five hundred.
Speaker 1: You never have one, right you have six or seven.
Speaker 1: But somebody talked about this. If you're in trouble, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna board a x On mobile. X On Mobile just
Speaker 1: had a proxy fight x on Mobile has ten meetings
Speaker 1: a year normally Proxy Fight year. How about and you
Speaker 1: just do you have to do them now. They make
Speaker 1: it a little bit easy for you. They've tried to
Speaker 1: find the time that you can do it. But it's
Speaker 1: not you know, it's not it's not all it's cracked
Speaker 1: up to be. I would, I would really be careful
Speaker 1: about running after this one last thing. I keep saying
Speaker 1: the last thing. There is no way you can be
Speaker 1: on four or five boards. Literally, proxy firms like last
Speaker 1: who was Succecha won't vote for you, you will literally,
Speaker 1: it's not allowed. You have to be on a certain
Speaker 1: number for your CEO. I was on three when I
Speaker 1: was the CEO. Fortunately, two of them were easy, you know.
Speaker 1: One of them was American Express, one of the best
Speaker 1: round companies out there. Ken also amazing CEO. The board
Speaker 1: was phenomenal, so you could actually do that, and you
Speaker 1: can do another one that's not so American Express was time,
Speaker 1: but easy time, if you know what I mean. It
Speaker 1: was not a crisis. Another company that was on was
Speaker 1: a crisis and I took a lot of time. And
Speaker 1: then the third was in the middle. So it's not
Speaker 1: the kind of thing that you do a lot of
Speaker 1: and it's not you don't get rich and famous little don't. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I want to push back on that, on that last point. Um,
Speaker 1: so you're on the board or have been on the
Speaker 1: board of Uber. I'm still on the boarder was still
Speaker 1: on the bo board of Uber. So they've gone through
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff. Um, what's that been like, how
Speaker 1: does that work? And how time consuming is it? Well?
Speaker 1: I was on the board of I got on the
Speaker 1: board of Uber out come of the mess, right, So
Speaker 1: I wasn't I didn't. I wasn't cleing up. You weren't
Speaker 1: in them. I wasn't clean up. Yeah, I wasn't clean up.
Speaker 1: I was at the very I was the last board member,
Speaker 1: myself and another guy named John Than who were put
Speaker 1: on by Travis. And if remember when this whole thing
Speaker 1: blew up, Travis had three board seats as part of
Speaker 1: his last as part of his last fight. He was
Speaker 1: one and he picked two others myself and John were
Speaker 1: And then soon after that, did you know, Travis, he
Speaker 1: just picked you out of the Yeah, I mean there's
Speaker 1: a lot of there's a whole bunch of stories behind
Speaker 1: how you know, how you get picked for this crap.
Speaker 1: But I'm trying to get the dirt for y'all. I
Speaker 1: hope you appreciate this. Okay, you know I'm trying. I'm trying, Morgan,
Speaker 1: I'm at a point in my life. This may sound
Speaker 1: like both. I'm in a point in my life that
Speaker 1: I asked I'm getting I get asked every day to
Speaker 1: be on the board or something. Right, So it's now.
Speaker 1: But at the at the end of the day, you say, well,
Speaker 1: then it's all because the money is all pretty much
Speaker 1: locked for your public it's pretty much there's a very
Speaker 1: narrow band, so it's all you're picking for then is
Speaker 1: the team of people and the content of the company.
Speaker 1: It's not about the money. Unless if private is better,
Speaker 1: like I keep saying, it's a it's a little bit easier.
Speaker 1: There's definitely more upside um. You learn a lot more
Speaker 1: because it's not as structured, so you have you have
Speaker 1: to set it up yourself. You know. Part of the
Speaker 1: part of going part of being private to go public,
Speaker 1: is this whole idea of structuring the governance. So anyway, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm traveling. Uber turns out to be a really, really,
Speaker 1: really great company. Okay, your experience is great, that's what
Speaker 1: you're saying, is there. There's everything about it now is
Speaker 1: so they were in a lot of trouble, right and
Speaker 1: they were, and it wasn't because of profitability. You know.
Speaker 1: The story was just crazy place. Yeah, crazy culture, crazy leadership.
Speaker 1: Actually probably maybe good at individual people. I never got
Speaker 1: to know them, but together they were definitely not a
Speaker 1: group of people that you want to hang out with
Speaker 1: a whole lot. And we when we went in, the
Speaker 1: board was being restructured for this disaster, and so the
Speaker 1: company was aware. Travis was even aware who Travis, who
Speaker 1: are like and respect and think he's smart. He, like
Speaker 1: I said, I don't think he could run a public company.
Speaker 1: That's not his thing, right, he should have never gotten there.
Speaker 1: But um, I mean starting is good. I mean you
Speaker 1: just go there's a point where you go a little
Speaker 1: bit too far and it's not your specialty and you
Speaker 1: shouldn't really be engaged in it and it's the Peter principle.
Speaker 1: But anyway, when you get on. We got on. We
Speaker 1: realized quickly that this company was, you know, a small,
Speaker 1: small I p O company with a market valuation of
Speaker 1: sixty billion dollars. It's not it's like a this is
Speaker 1: not a game anymore, right, you have it, so you
Speaker 1: have to actually adults in the room. And so they
Speaker 1: got old adults in the room, myself and John and
Speaker 1: some other people who knew about things. But the thing
Speaker 1: that was interesting was that they were also very aware
Speaker 1: that they were on the edge in every country of
Speaker 1: being just like debarred that they were hated. Right, they
Speaker 1: were used, They were part of it. But they knew
Speaker 1: that if they didn't do something, it would be a problem.
Speaker 1: So fortunately they we were bought on the board the
Speaker 1: last two but the whole board realized and the management
Speaker 1: team we got to do something big, and so we
Speaker 1: bought in the new CEO, Dara, who used to run Expedia.
Speaker 1: He's amazing, he's really really good. This is you know,
Speaker 1: he's the guy who I the firm, who I always
Speaker 1: look into when we went through the Charles the George
Speaker 1: Floyd thing. And they're voting the first company, the first
Speaker 1: company that signed up for everything without reading the damn
Speaker 1: papers that I'm in and this and this is the
Speaker 1: influence you have by being on that board and talking
Speaker 1: to the CEO and making sure that they can be
Speaker 1: responsive and what the kind of the kind of multiplier
Speaker 1: effect that has when something like George Floyd happened. So
Speaker 1: that's the influence and impact you get to have by
Speaker 1: being on that that Uber is good. Uber is a
Speaker 1: cool company. Exit Mobile is a little bit more challenging.
Speaker 1: It's very structured, very legal, it's very risky. You know.
Speaker 1: It's just it has a big operation in Russia. So
Speaker 1: now we're sitting here going, okay, now what you know
Speaker 1: not what are you're doing? You can't go visit it.
Speaker 1: You can't you know, you have to get out. You
Speaker 1: can't just leave because so you know it, it becomes
Speaker 1: very complicated. So you gotta be aware that with the
Speaker 1: good comes to bad. When the bad comes, you gotta
Speaker 1: do the work. Do you select certain or do you
Speaker 1: have certain committees that you only serve on or always, always, always,
Speaker 1: always every board that I'm on on on the Order
Speaker 1: committee number one. Yeah, that that's where I started with
Speaker 1: you to me, and I think it's such a good
Speaker 1: learning experience, even for a company that's about to go public,
Speaker 1: knowing how you have to get everything in order, from
Speaker 1: cybersecurity to your tax situation, all that has to be
Speaker 1: clean before you go public. Knowing how to do all
Speaker 1: that stuff from the audit perspective is every company needs that?
Speaker 1: Is that? Why? Yeah, well well must I'm with a
Speaker 1: sitting CEO, so I'm a certified financial experts. I can
Speaker 1: do it. The problem with being on the Order committee
Speaker 1: is that it's real work. This is not I mean,
Speaker 1: I mean really like you have to sign your name
Speaker 1: to stuff that I've read this. It's not like. It's
Speaker 1: not like nominations and governance where you can get which
Speaker 1: is how we gonna. Let's not slam. Now I'm good.
Speaker 1: I take that very seriously. By the way, Terry, now
Speaker 1: I'm gone. But I was just saying how important it is.
Speaker 1: Not not so four committees what it is required. Nobody
Speaker 1: wants to do it. Nobody wants to do it. It's
Speaker 1: a lot. It's so if there are seven board meetings
Speaker 1: in the year, they're ten Order committee meetings, right, So
Speaker 1: it's just a lot more work. It's it is if
Speaker 1: you're not into it, kind of boring. And if you're
Speaker 1: not good at it and don't just don't do it.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's no reason to do it. There's a
Speaker 1: lot of other things you can be doing. And I
Speaker 1: just happen to like it and and be good at it.
Speaker 1: That's the reason NONN is important, important and compensation is important,
Speaker 1: so that two rocking committees are those two right now,
Speaker 1: I'm and GOV, which is a whole bunch of glory
Speaker 1: and comp which everybody seems to like you because you
Speaker 1: control that, what with the salary, the CEO and other
Speaker 1: people and some people like that. But I think any committee,
Speaker 1: I think you know, any committee is fine. It's something
Speaker 1: that you can be useful on, you can contribute to. Okay,
Speaker 1: now I tried to get you to answer this, but
Speaker 1: I'm gonna try again. Which is that, um, having been
Speaker 1: the CEO, I know that you've had favorite directors, or
Speaker 1: at least favorite directors, and I want to know more
Speaker 1: about that so that when they get on the boards
Speaker 1: they know how to really Like I've been told by
Speaker 1: the CEO, I'm his favorite director. Right now, I'm like,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure exactly what I did, but I think
Speaker 1: it helps that I've been a CEO and I know
Speaker 1: how to not micromanage, you know, give him alerts about
Speaker 1: whatever it is. But what from your perspective, what makes
Speaker 1: for a great director? Knowing what their jobs one of
Speaker 1: the one of the big challenges always every board I've
Speaker 1: ever been on small, big, private, public there's at least
Speaker 1: one director who actually wants to run the company and
Speaker 1: who who actually asked questions like you know, what was
Speaker 1: the turnover of the popcorn? And it's like who that's
Speaker 1: not that's something that's interesting that you should probably talk
Speaker 1: to the CEO about over lunch, but it's not a
Speaker 1: director level of question, and so knowing the most challenging
Speaker 1: I've been CEO of two public companies. The most challenging
Speaker 1: thing is a bad director. It is unbelievably bad. Um
Speaker 1: It's very difficult for the CEO. It's usually very time
Speaker 1: consuming for the rest of the board because they're generally
Speaker 1: out of sync and a lot of you know, we
Speaker 1: get down a lot of rabbit holes, and it's and
Speaker 1: it's hard to get rid of a director. Once you
Speaker 1: get them on. It's reputationally very challenging to just kind
Speaker 1: of throw them off or you can't. You can't just
Speaker 1: throw them off, and it's just very it's a very
Speaker 1: challenging thing. So the first thing is to make sure
Speaker 1: that you know what your what your job is, and
Speaker 1: it's generally not to run the place. And if it is,
Speaker 1: if you are trying to run into place. The CEO
Speaker 1: should probably be changed. I mean, you got the wrong boss.
Speaker 1: So that's what that person's job is. The other thing
Speaker 1: is it did someone just asshole personalities that you just
Speaker 1: don't want to be part of. And everybody has a
Speaker 1: different swing lane that they're into, So let's make sure.
Speaker 1: That's why it's really important to the the group that is
Speaker 1: there already. Just make sure that you like the group
Speaker 1: that's there. Okay, that's very helpful. Now for people who
Speaker 1: are still coming up in their careers and they want to, um,
Speaker 1: get experienced, to know how to interface with directors and
Speaker 1: and that sort of thing. Um, are there things that
Speaker 1: they should do to know the boards of director, like
Speaker 1: the directors on their company or anything like that. Okay, Okay,
Speaker 1: to be away from this is okay, it's a bad thing.
Speaker 1: Stay away from this. You you know, the board of
Speaker 1: your company when you should know them right and when
Speaker 1: you're sitting in the c suite or or have some
Speaker 1: kind of a role that requires that you interface with
Speaker 1: them on a regular basis or any basis, that's fine.
Speaker 1: Otherwise I assure you you will not become a member
Speaker 1: of the c suite if you spend your time trying
Speaker 1: to get to know your directors. You should try to
Speaker 1: spend your time getting to know your job, right because
Speaker 1: it's it is really, really, really risky. This is not
Speaker 1: a game of politics at this level, right, they are
Speaker 1: governed into your operations. When you get in the governance,
Speaker 1: then there's a lot of politics. But you can't play
Speaker 1: politics when you're the surf and they're the king. Right,
Speaker 1: So it's not the kind of thing that that you do.
Speaker 1: You should just stay this is becoming right, So we
Speaker 1: spend we're gonna spend five minutes talking about boards of
Speaker 1: directors where the vast majority of people in this room
Speaker 1: will never serve on one. Right. Before you do that,
Speaker 1: you got to get to the point where people say, yeah,
Speaker 1: we want that person to serve on one. And the
Speaker 1: way that you get there is that you have to
Speaker 1: actually do work that somebody says that's reasonable. That's a
Speaker 1: person who being the CFO of some company is a
Speaker 1: really good idea. It's a good it's a good checkpoint
Speaker 1: so you can get through. Being the CEO obviously is
Speaker 1: a really good idea. If you have some really specific
Speaker 1: tech skill, if you're a master at cybersecurity, if you're
Speaker 1: good at digital marketing or are one of these things,
Speaker 1: then you can be selected. But if you're just an
Speaker 1: employee of a company, just it's not a bit just
Speaker 1: it's not a demeaning just it's just like you just um,
Speaker 1: if you're that, you know, spending your time to try
Speaker 1: to maneuver your way into the boardroom, it's really not
Speaker 1: the most useful. It's not the most useful thing. I
Speaker 1: if I could say over and over again, guys, when
Speaker 1: it comes, it will come. Look for it. Don't spend
Speaker 1: your time not looking, you know, look for it occasionally.
Speaker 1: When it comes, it will come, and you'll be ready.
Speaker 1: If you get there before you ready, it's a waste
Speaker 1: of goddamn time. It's not that much money, and it's
Speaker 1: it's it's just it. Yeah, And it's not that much
Speaker 1: fame and fortune unless you get unless you get on
Speaker 1: the board of Apple, Amazon, let's talk to this fifties
Speaker 1: that you if you can get on the board of
Speaker 1: Airbnb before it goes you know, those kinds of companies, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's great. Otherwise it's just otherwise you're an unsung hero.
Speaker 1: It's for your gratification, Okay, it's just work. Okay, great, excellent,
Speaker 1: got it? Um Okay? I think yes, she is so
Speaker 1: real and that's why we love law Burns. By the way,
Speaker 1: we we we have to You know, most of us
Speaker 1: are first generation. You were telling me about your background.
Speaker 1: We're all brand new to this stuff. And if we
Speaker 1: don't share the information with each other about what it's
Speaker 1: like in these different positions, I don't know who's gonna
Speaker 1: tell us because they don't really want us to be
Speaker 1: part of the whole scene. Necessarily very good. The point
Speaker 1: they do not want us to be part of this scene.
Speaker 1: It is structured. This scene is structured. So I spent
Speaker 1: a lot of time talking about this in such a
Speaker 1: way that they can just side when they want you
Speaker 1: right there. It's just it's and that's all BS right,
Speaker 1: because there's we We launched this thing called the Board
Speaker 1: Diversity Action Alliance. Right. This was after George Floyd, myself,
Speaker 1: Gabby Salzburger, Darren Walker from the Ford Foundation accompany them
Speaker 1: Engage were called Tono and the e l C. Why
Speaker 1: George Floyd gets murdered by the police. Uh that day
Speaker 1: I had flown to London. I got a call from
Speaker 1: a very very good friend who happens to be the
Speaker 1: CEO of a sporting good company from in Europe. You
Speaker 1: can kind of deduce down to what company it is.
Speaker 1: And okay, he's a great guy from Austria. I said,
Speaker 1: you know, I just want to talk to you about
Speaker 1: this what happened. And I think I got this right.
Speaker 1: But and he really great conversation, really really good man.
Speaker 1: And I said to him, but you know, great, didn't
Speaker 1: call me anytime if you need any more. I accept
Speaker 1: him at the end, why why are you talking to
Speaker 1: me about this? Why didn't you call stupid me? Why
Speaker 1: didn't you just talk to one of your directors or
Speaker 1: And he said, well, we don't have any director black directors.
Speaker 1: It's interesting, he said, Okay, I can get I can
Speaker 1: maybe figure it out. I said, but how about the
Speaker 1: management team. None who's his biggest his biggest customers. They
Speaker 1: look like us. They're playing basketball, they're doing whatever the
Speaker 1: hell you do, football and all of this stuff. They
Speaker 1: don't do football but soccer, you know, global sc And
Speaker 1: I said to him, you mean to tell me that
Speaker 1: you run this whole company and you see nobody who
Speaker 1: looks like the clients that you serve. Next, call some
Speaker 1: of the company. I talked to Darren, he had gotten calls.
Speaker 1: Gabby was the CEO, was the chair of Whole Foods,
Speaker 1: if you know, right when it was sold to Amazon.
Speaker 1: And we got together and we were like, this is
Speaker 1: really strange that all these people who are calling us
Speaker 1: great people at least called right and are curious they
Speaker 1: the reason why they called us is because we're the
Speaker 1: closest thing to a black person they see anytime. So
Speaker 1: we decided that we were gonna start this thing called
Speaker 1: the b d A, the Board Diversity Action A lines
Speaker 1: and basically what it is simple simple. Every company in
Speaker 1: the fortune fire founder now we've done it to the
Speaker 1: Russell three thousand has to have at least one black director.
Speaker 1: I don't care, it doesn't matter what you do right now.
Speaker 1: We got into a lot of trouble on this because
Speaker 1: we didn't say black or brown, so the Hispanics thought
Speaker 1: we were and so we did change it, so now
Speaker 1: I will say black or brown director. And if you
Speaker 1: have one, you should get a second. Right. If you
Speaker 1: have a second, maybe you should get a third. Right exactly,
Speaker 1: because there's this there's this belief and and this is
Speaker 1: what came out. You should look at some of the
Speaker 1: newsreels that when we launched this thing, it's all over
Speaker 1: the newspapers. We had a question that came from Andrew
Speaker 1: ros Saukin, who's a really cool guy reporter, you know,
Speaker 1: and he said, well, won't some of these people believe that.
Speaker 1: The question was like, the current directors are gonna feel
Speaker 1: kind of bad because as you're taking their seats. I said,
Speaker 1: it's interesting their seats. It's an interesting phraseology it belongs.
Speaker 1: And I said to him that means that they own
Speaker 1: these things, right, and then we are now taking something
Speaker 1: that they own. And the theory of the case that
Speaker 1: we even have is that there is that they own
Speaker 1: this space and now so we just have to flip
Speaker 1: it around and we have to say the why aren't
Speaker 1: there eight black directors? Right? And and that's what I've
Speaker 1: always said is that your board of directors should reflect
Speaker 1: your customer base. And so if, yeah, if your customers
Speaker 1: are black, maybe you ought to have black directors. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's what makes sense, right, So it's it's I just
Speaker 1: think that obviously all I did is just present. What
Speaker 1: we did was just present a problem, right, So they
Speaker 1: believe it or not, they still have the seats we
Speaker 1: are still outside trying to get the seats, and okay,
Speaker 1: we'll keep playing that game, right, make sure you get
Speaker 1: the right ones and you have fun and all that stuff.
Speaker 1: Played that game. When you get inside, you absolutely have
Speaker 1: to be an advocate or else there's no you know,
Speaker 1: by the way, you know, I've come a little bit
Speaker 1: around this. You don't have to be an advocate advocate.
Speaker 1: But then, don't call yourself a black director, right, just
Speaker 1: call yourself a director, just a regular director, rector you're
Speaker 1: a director? And why do we not not everyone has
Speaker 1: to do everything all the time, right, So you can
Speaker 1: say I don't want to do that right now, you
Speaker 1: got it, I got it. I don't want to do
Speaker 1: that in this company. Got it. But you can't kind
Speaker 1: of get the the accolades and the distinction and then
Speaker 1: not actually contribute to the solution. And that is something
Speaker 1: that I've kind of had. I've seen there's some women
Speaker 1: black people who stack up a lot of boards and
Speaker 1: they get a lot of credit for that. They haven't
Speaker 1: necessarily brought any other people at the table. I don't
Speaker 1: begrudge them. I'm happy for them. But it's a different
Speaker 1: thing if you're doing what Merline is doing where you're
Speaker 1: literally working to get more black people at to those tables.
Speaker 1: It's always a sensitive thing, right, So you go to
Speaker 1: a company to to serve the company, right, to serve
Speaker 1: the share you're the representative of the shareholders of the company.
Speaker 1: So you're not the representative of black people, but well,
Speaker 1: or women or but there's a big butt. You are
Speaker 1: a black person and a woman, right, so you you
Speaker 1: you bring to that role of representing the shareholder is
Speaker 1: a point of view that is different from the point
Speaker 1: of view presumably, and I from experience, it's true of
Speaker 1: a white man, or of a man if you're a
Speaker 1: woman so, or of a of a gay or lesbian
Speaker 1: person if you're straight. Right, So all these things walk
Speaker 1: into the room. It's really important to understand that if
Speaker 1: you shed them when you walk into the room, they
Speaker 1: could have just gotten a regular white guy to do it.
Speaker 1: I mean, it didn't really need that. I have a
Speaker 1: lot of them are ready. So so yeah, what can't
Speaker 1: be your job Only that's not the thing that you
Speaker 1: Now you have fiducial responsibilities and you have to meet
Speaker 1: those first and foremost. Where you shouldn't be at the table. Um, Okay,
Speaker 1: I know we have some burning questions. I've been hogging
Speaker 1: all the questions, UM, I have for about three or
Speaker 1: four questions. Please make them scinct. Five questions, five questions.
Speaker 1: We're going right here. I think there are five hands up,
Speaker 1: so it's perfect. Yes, all right, don't drop the chair now,
Speaker 1: all right there, good afternoon. I'm bringing Cole from Nashville, Tennessee,
Speaker 1: CEO of Career Thrivers. We help corporations retain diverse talent.
Speaker 1: So two quick questions. One will you sign my book
Speaker 1: for a good friend of mine? Uh? And my second
Speaker 1: question absolutely, thank you. It's phenomenal by the way. UM.
Speaker 1: And I want to say thank you for UM. I'm
Speaker 1: here because I'm just as good as you. In the
Speaker 1: Harvard Business Review, the article interview that you did, and
Speaker 1: in that interview you talked about there was a question about,
Speaker 1: you know, obviously there's this resurgence, will call it that
Speaker 1: of D E and I, and what is the solution
Speaker 1: for seeing more black faces inside of corporate corporations? And
Speaker 1: you your answer was numbers, numbers, numbers, and why I
Speaker 1: would agree with you. You all hit on this. UM.
Speaker 1: I think it's a bit of a generational um thing
Speaker 1: where perhaps um. More millennial black professionals and black women
Speaker 1: specifically kind of run up against the you know, stay
Speaker 1: in your place, UM, make sure you, you know, serve
Speaker 1: your time before you can get to executive level levels
Speaker 1: of leadership from older, more seasoned black women. So what
Speaker 1: would you say, UM to perhaps mid career women that
Speaker 1: are in the room today who are being met by
Speaker 1: resistance from women who look like them inside of corporations.
Speaker 1: I love that we're keeping the reel in the room.
Speaker 1: Thank you. I I halfway through that question, I was agreeing.
Speaker 1: I was agree or disagreeing with you, but agreeing with
Speaker 1: the with the protagonist of you know, do your things
Speaker 1: serve your time, because there is a lot to be
Speaker 1: said about that, and talked about this in the book.
Speaker 1: It is amazing to me the number of people who
Speaker 1: literally I meet with them all the time, and I've
Speaker 1: been meeting and I say, what do you want to do?
Speaker 1: And they say I want to be a vice president
Speaker 1: And I say, of what so it doesn't matter? They say,
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter anything, and that thinking is what stay
Speaker 1: in your place do some things. It is trying to counteract, right,
Speaker 1: is trying to counteract this. It doesn't matter what the hell.
Speaker 1: I just want to get there. It doesn't matter whether
Speaker 1: I know how the place runs. It doesn't. So, but
Speaker 1: I do believe that there is always that there has
Speaker 1: always been. And some of the staunches, um, what's a
Speaker 1: negative advocate? Whatever? The hey, who are uh? That's that
Speaker 1: looks exactly like you and it's and I've I run
Speaker 1: into it a lot more from women to women, because
Speaker 1: there's not When I was coming up, they were not
Speaker 1: a lot of black women, but women to women it
Speaker 1: was a big deal. And you know, all you do
Speaker 1: is you push, you keep pushing. It's not I mean
Speaker 1: a lot has to do with the situation that you're in,
Speaker 1: the company that you're in, how powerful the person is.
Speaker 1: One of the things my husband used to tell me
Speaker 1: all the time. He would say to me, Ursula, this
Speaker 1: is not slavery. If you if it ain't working for you,
Speaker 1: go find another place. Right. So these are all these
Speaker 1: things have to be options for you. Generally, companies don't
Speaker 1: hire you and executives don't have you in roles if
Speaker 1: you're subordinate to them for you to do a bad job.
Speaker 1: They actually need you to be successful. So you have
Speaker 1: to figure out a way to maneuver around blockers and haters. Sometimes.
Speaker 1: My approach, which is not everybody's approach, and I would
Speaker 1: not suggest it for everyone, is I am extremely direct.
Speaker 1: I have been, and it's worked. It's worked, but it
Speaker 1: doesn't work for everyone. And if you're not, if that's
Speaker 1: not how you roll, it's it's a damn show, won't
Speaker 1: work for you, right, So you have to find the
Speaker 1: way that you do it. You know who your advocates are.
Speaker 1: There are lots of different ways around, but make sure
Speaker 1: that you're aware that you have the ultimate option to
Speaker 1: find another job and then you don't have to stay anywhere.
Speaker 1: Thank you. And and what I always tell my daughter
Speaker 1: is there are no shortcuts for being for mastering your skill,
Speaker 1: your trade set. If it's fine, if it's if it's writing, whatever,
Speaker 1: there are no shortcuts. And and I'm sorry for that information,
Speaker 1: but it's it's it's the fact. Um, Okay, where's the
Speaker 1: next question? Have it over here while questions are coming,
Speaker 1: Bring me your book and a pen. What's your name?
Speaker 1: Anybody else has a book? Bring me a book and
Speaker 1: your pen because I'll sign them when I'm answering questions.
Speaker 1: See how efficient she is? She's efficient, organized, this is
Speaker 1: a leader works. I was just about to say direct
Speaker 1: and deficient. Thank you so much for being here. Good afternoon.
Speaker 1: My name is Tono bos I am a chief staff
Speaker 1: at Harlem Capital Diversity Focus venture capital firm. I wanted
Speaker 1: to I wanted to ask, because you've had the opportunity
Speaker 1: to not just be an independent board member but also
Speaker 1: a CEO and a chairwoman. I want to ask for
Speaker 1: the CEOs in the room, or even the future CEOs,
Speaker 1: what do you think about when putting together your board,
Speaker 1: Because when it comes to diverse founders and CEOs, often
Speaker 1: they may get to a point where they're putting together
Speaker 1: a board and they've never been on a board. So
Speaker 1: I really want to think about what can CEOs do
Speaker 1: to build a board that supports them and helps elevate them. Question,
Speaker 1: it's a great question, um My, very really do I
Speaker 1: I've never had the ability to build a board, you know.
Speaker 1: I've always had the situation where I come into a
Speaker 1: company or come into a board that already exists. So
Speaker 1: and I'm the latest add to a pretty historical, long
Speaker 1: running set of relationships. But I as a CEO when
Speaker 1: I and by the way, as a CEO the same
Speaker 1: so if I'm the CEO, I generally get elevated into
Speaker 1: a role in The people sitting around the table picked me, right,
Speaker 1: So I don't. I didn't pick them, It's just the
Speaker 1: way it happens to be. First, is the technical responsibility
Speaker 1: of a of a board, of a director is important
Speaker 1: to understand. It's important to know what fiducier you know,
Speaker 1: what's the what are the duties of care, what are
Speaker 1: the duties of loyalty. It's important to know kind of
Speaker 1: really what you do. It's important to know the structure
Speaker 1: of committees and what skills are needed. It's important to
Speaker 1: actually know the facts and data of the job and
Speaker 1: not you know because all the rest of it is glory.
Speaker 1: But you don't get there unless you know the fact
Speaker 1: dat of the of the job. I want board members
Speaker 1: who are pushers, right. One of the things about boards,
Speaker 1: and one of the things about CEOs is they need
Speaker 1: permission to take risks. The toughest thing about running a
Speaker 1: company is that you have choices to make and all
Speaker 1: not all the choices are equal, and and you have
Speaker 1: to figure out a way one of the you know
Speaker 1: every day, which which you know the five things? Which
Speaker 1: is the best to do. Sometimes they're small choices, but
Speaker 1: in your career you'll probably run over run into four
Speaker 1: or five pretty important ones. The combination buying this company
Speaker 1: a CS was I mean, this is like, what the hell? What,
Speaker 1: how did this happen? Where did this come from? How
Speaker 1: would you get permission to take that kind of risk?
Speaker 1: So having a board that can help you think through
Speaker 1: these kinds of expansive moves are important. So I look
Speaker 1: at people who feel gaps that I have people if
Speaker 1: I people who can work with the to the team,
Speaker 1: like I said, uh bad director takes energy that's unbelievable
Speaker 1: and time to manage, and it's your responsibility if you're
Speaker 1: the chair I was a chairing CEO, And it's a
Speaker 1: whole bunch of crap about being both. But if you
Speaker 1: happen to be both, then you a lot of time
Speaker 1: in managing that. But if this is the whole thing
Speaker 1: about there is a job to be done, it's not
Speaker 1: a It's kind of like if you were the CFO,
Speaker 1: there's a job to be done. If your board directors
Speaker 1: a job to be done, learning that job, the technicals
Speaker 1: of that job, and doing that well with the team,
Speaker 1: isn't it is the most important things, and I'll just
Speaker 1: chime into that or so, I think a lot of
Speaker 1: new CEOs and founders have no idea about how much
Speaker 1: power and how important the board of directors is. In fact,
Speaker 1: I'm writing a piece that I'm about to post on
Speaker 1: Monday in honor of this session for that very reason.
Speaker 1: And we do a similar stage black ops ventures in Harlem,
Speaker 1: Capital of Investing, and so it's usually the first price round.
Speaker 1: And at that stage you need directors who are going
Speaker 1: to get you your wall to wall enterprise customers, or
Speaker 1: who can help you build the strategy, have the relationships
Speaker 1: and networks to help you grow your company into a
Speaker 1: billion dollar company. So, um who you have at that table?
Speaker 1: And also are they thinking about the best interest of
Speaker 1: the company and the people who got the company off
Speaker 1: the ground, or they're thinking about the best interests of
Speaker 1: their portfolio first, UM I went through a tough experience
Speaker 1: where my board forced me to sell to one of
Speaker 1: UM my board members. UM I wish I was still
Speaker 1: running the company today. So you you really, founders so
Speaker 1: often don't understand how important the directors are. So I
Speaker 1: think that's a great question. That's really funny because I
Speaker 1: think this is I love this topic right, because what
Speaker 1: happens the version at the end, what happens with quote
Speaker 1: unquote these entrepreneurs. Everybody, everybody I run too into is
Speaker 1: an entrepreneur. Everybody, what do you do? I'm an entrepreneur, Okay,
Speaker 1: I guessually entrepreneur. Everybody's an entrepreneur, and everybody wants to
Speaker 1: start their own company, which is which is what an entrepreneur,
Speaker 1: I guess does. And they all want them to be
Speaker 1: a billion dollar company, and they all want money to
Speaker 1: fund it. This is where I remember saying this to
Speaker 1: Travis school Like I said, I still have a lot
Speaker 1: of time for Travis. I think he's a great guy.
Speaker 1: I said, you lost control when you took other people's money.
Speaker 1: Make sure you understand it's not your money. It's not
Speaker 1: your company anymore. So if you want to treat it
Speaker 1: like it's your little company, don't ask other people for
Speaker 1: investments in it. They can say to you, I, you
Speaker 1: own ten percent of it, now we own ninety. It's
Speaker 1: time to sell, right exactly. But when you when you
Speaker 1: met cross that line. It's so funny how many people
Speaker 1: say this to me, Well, my board one fem like
Speaker 1: it's yeah, because you work for them now, right, because
Speaker 1: what we're trying to say here you took their money.
Speaker 1: You can't actually take the money and actually act like
Speaker 1: they're the owners. So it's a by the way, then
Speaker 1: go off and start another company, right, that's what you do, right,
Speaker 1: and then and then and then and then and then
Speaker 1: and then So anyway, thank you. I have her last
Speaker 1: question right here. She has a flight to catch she
Speaker 1: has a flight to catch them. Sorry. So fifteen years ago,
Speaker 1: a girl is walking down the street and says ursula,
Speaker 1: and you turn around and looked at me as if
Speaker 1: who is this woman? So fast forward fifteen years later.
Speaker 1: It's amazing to see you again. I am a tech
Speaker 1: founder and CEO. M Tech is a company. We are
Speaker 1: modernizing central banks and emerging markets and in the US.
Speaker 1: My question to you, how do I know going public
Speaker 1: is for me? Genuinely you are forced. It's it's not
Speaker 1: a choice that you have that you can make. Genuinely,
Speaker 1: you are. You get there because you can no longer
Speaker 1: garner the credibility you need. So if you have a
Speaker 1: lot of enterprise customers, people are not gonna sign big
Speaker 1: contracts with you know, ding Dung company. As good as
Speaker 1: you you seem you are or you need money, so
Speaker 1: you need or access to significant sums of money. So
Speaker 1: very really do you have the luxury of you You
Speaker 1: may have the luxury of timing, but you generally don't
Speaker 1: have the luxury for good reasons of like just saying
Speaker 1: I can keep going, I can keep going for a
Speaker 1: long time, but I tell you, for as long as
Speaker 1: you can stay private, I would stay private for as
Speaker 1: long as I could stay private. There's a point where
Speaker 1: it doesn't make sense anymore, right where it's just trapped value. Um,
Speaker 1: you can't get the talent that you need because they
Speaker 1: they won't come unless they have some way to get
Speaker 1: some kind of equity. That's reasonable, but generally you you
Speaker 1: put on what what happens is you take you become
Speaker 1: an adult, a regulated adult adult, and that's you just
Speaker 1: have to prepare for it. And if I think it's
Speaker 1: generally good for companies when you have to go through
Speaker 1: the hurdles of meeting Sarbanes Oxley reporting requirements, having some
Speaker 1: kind of a comp committee that has some kind of
Speaker 1: instructions that you have to do earnest I think that's
Speaker 1: pretty good. But there's a point you'll know when it's
Speaker 1: it's just not for you. But there's a point where
Speaker 1: it's you wait too long, you can't, you can't do it.
Speaker 1: There are very few, very large, not family owned, There
Speaker 1: are very very few, very large, enterprise level private companies.
Speaker 1: You just need talent, you need money, you need access,
Speaker 1: you need the credibility of a set of ordered financials
Speaker 1: and running through a whole bunch of groops. Emotionally, I
Speaker 1: would wait as long as post because it's it's it's
Speaker 1: a lot of work. Black Tech Green Money is the
Speaker 1: production of Black of the Afro Tech on the Black
Speaker 1: Effect Podcast Network and iHeart Media, and it's produced by
Speaker 1: Morgan Dubonn and me Well Lucas, with addition to production
Speaker 1: support by Love Beach and Marissa Lewis. Especially thank you
Speaker 1: to Michael Davis, Germain Hall, and Vanessa Serranto. Learn more
Speaker 1: about my guests and other texts Rother's innovators at afro
Speaker 1: tech dot com. The video first of other episode We'll
Speaker 1: talk the Black Tech Green Money on YouTube, So tap
Speaker 1: in enjoy your Black Tech Green Money. He was five
Speaker 1: star rating on iTunes. Go get your money. He's in
Speaker 1: love