WEBVTT - How Corporate Boards Really Work with Ursula Burns 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:02.440 You you you know the board of your company when you 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:04.680 should know them right and when you're sitting in the 0:00:04.720 --> 0:00:07.520 C suite or or have some kind of a role 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:10.680 that requires that you interface with them on a regular 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:15.200 basis or any basis, that's fine. Otherwise I assure you 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:17.400 you will not become a member of the c suite 0:00:17.440 --> 0:00:18.960 if you spend your time trying to get to know 0:00:19.000 --> 0:00:21.560 your directors. You should try to spend your time getting 0:00:21.600 --> 0:00:25.439 to know your job. I'm well, look as this is 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:29.440 black that green money, and I'm so excited to bring 0:00:29.480 --> 0:00:32.040 you this episode because I was there in real time 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:36.199 when it happened. This is the conversation that happened at 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:40.960 Afro Tech Executive in Brooklyn, and it was with the CEO, 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:45.920 the former CEO of ze Rox, Miss Ursula Burns, who 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:51.080 was CEO of Xerox from two thousand nine. She was 0:00:51.120 --> 0:00:53.960 the first black woman to be c O of a 0:00:54.000 --> 0:00:58.480 Fortune five company and the first woman to see another 0:00:58.520 --> 0:01:02.280 woman as head of a Fortune five visual company. Sister 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:07.640 all around. Most pertinent to today's conversation is her board roles. 0:01:08.560 --> 0:01:12.080 Miss Burns sat on the boards of directors for more 0:01:12.120 --> 0:01:17.480 than fifteen companies, including Boston Scientific University of Rochester, m 0:01:17.520 --> 0:01:23.319 I T Corporation, American Express, Exim Mobile, Boolber, White Star, 0:01:23.440 --> 0:01:27.720 and more. During this conversation, which was held at a 0:01:27.840 --> 0:01:31.840 pro Tech executive Brooklyn, have you you had a recurring theme? 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:35.520 You should not miss another apro tech executive. By the way, 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:38.200 we're gonna be in d C in a couple of weeks. 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:41.480 But anyway, back to today's conversation. She talked behind the 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:46.560 Highles managing partner at Black Ops Adventures and founder of 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:50.280 path Right. If you have any interests, listen to me. 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:53.600 If you have any interest in one day sitting on 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:58.840 a corporate board, listen. Keep your ears locked. And if 0:01:58.880 --> 0:02:02.000 you want to build a big company, listen, keep your 0:02:02.000 --> 0:02:05.800 ears locked. Because boards are where the decisions are made. 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:09.320 Boards are where you where they decided. If you're gonna 0:02:09.360 --> 0:02:11.520 keep your job as CEO is a matter of fact. 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:15.760 Understanding how they work is the best thing you can 0:02:15.800 --> 0:02:19.040 do with your next forty minutes. Give more. Welcome to 0:02:19.120 --> 0:02:42.959 Ursula Burns to see you. Welcome. Yeah, where's my cousin? 0:02:43.880 --> 0:02:49.400 Where's your cousin? Let's wait wait, where is she? Hi cousin? 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:52.840 Thank you for being here. She's my cousin And I 0:02:52.880 --> 0:02:55.240 always call her my niece because she's so much younger. 0:02:56.639 --> 0:03:02.079 It's her cousin. How your girlfriend. Yeah, we're glad you're here. Hey, 0:03:02.120 --> 0:03:04.560 thank you so much for being here today. You are 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:08.000 again one of these amazing pioneers that has paved the 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:10.920 way and been a model to folks like myself and 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:12.799 all the women in this room. So I want to 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:15.560 start by saying thank you so much for everything you've done, 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:20.959 for being you. You know, I'm gonna give the real 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:23.400 brief version because you've done so much that we don't 0:03:23.400 --> 0:03:25.000 have time to get into all that we want to 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:30.680 hear from you directly. Okay, Okay, we go, but you know, um, 0:03:31.040 --> 0:03:35.920 your your legendary position as the CEO of Xerox and 0:03:36.160 --> 0:03:39.240 doing such a huge acquisition for them, and all the 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:41.360 other things that you've been doing. We want to hear 0:03:41.440 --> 0:03:43.720 some of what you're doing today. UM. So I hope 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:46.160 we'll get into it. So thank you so much. UM. 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:48.880 We The last question we ended on I thought was 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:53.320 very helpful, UM, which was um, the question was is 0:03:53.360 --> 0:03:56.000 it enough to be a black woman and be the director? 0:03:56.600 --> 0:03:59.200 And Merlin's answer was absolutely not. And if a if 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:01.320 a person select you for a board just because of 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:04.880 your demographics, that's not the board for you. So I 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:10.680 think from the CEO UM perspective, what do constructive value 0:04:10.760 --> 0:04:15.120 add directors look like and how do they behave versus 0:04:15.120 --> 0:04:17.840 somebody who's kind of taking up airspace and and not 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:21.080 helping the management team do their thing. Yeah, I heard 0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:23.920 the question the last couple of questions, and I must 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:27.680 say I don't agree. Okay, I absolutely don't agree. Let's 0:04:27.680 --> 0:04:30.600 say this all the time. First of all, no company 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:32.560 is going to come to you and say you're totally 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:35.919 not a knowledgeable about anything to do with business. But 0:04:35.920 --> 0:04:38.080 but just because you happen to be black and a woman, 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:39.479 were going to put you on the board. So that 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:42.400 I mean, that's just not a viable company. So that 0:04:42.560 --> 0:04:45.120 I would, I would just that's not a thing that 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:48.080 I mean unless they're absolutely dingdongs, which you wouldn't want 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:52.200 to be with anywhere. But so if they've come to you, 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:54.080 they found you, they look at some kind of a 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:58.719 profile and the reason why you are the next person 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:01.080 that they would pick is because you're black or a woman. 0:05:01.279 --> 0:05:04.559 I'd go just as quickly as not. For so long 0:05:04.760 --> 0:05:07.440 we have been excluded because of the way that we look, 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:10.400 I absolutely tell you, I say this all the time. 0:05:10.800 --> 0:05:13.640 It's about damn time that we were included because of 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:18.080 the way that we look. So I absolutely okay. Now, 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:23.480 this whole thing about being on boards, I gotta say, 0:05:23.520 --> 0:05:29.360 this is the I've been on It's not always crack 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:31.840 up to be guys, be careful here. I mean, it's 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:33.640 good and it's fun, and it's all that stuff. You 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:35.920 don't get anywhere near as much money as you think. 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:40.560 It takes a ton of time. It's not doesn't always 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:42.400 take a ton of time, but when it takes a 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:44.600 ton of time, it takes a lot of time. And 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:47.640 you can't say things like I'm busy. They're like, well, 0:05:47.680 --> 0:05:49.280 I mean that's the reason why you're sitting here. We 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:51.839 want you to be busy on this right, not on 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:56.719 other on other things. And sometimes it's just not fun. 0:05:57.240 --> 0:06:00.320 I mean, you you know you're going the boys of 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:02.919 banks and insurance companies. Is that's not your thing? You 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:04.400 sit there and try to figure out what that am 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:07.039 I doing here? That's the and then the last is 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:10.160 the group of people that you're with. Forget the management team, 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:12.760 but the directors. If they're not worth your time, don't 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:17.080 go because you'll it just isn't that much fun. It's 0:06:17.120 --> 0:06:20.200 the thing that we're all running after now. But that 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:23.240 thing has been run through by white guys already, and 0:06:23.279 --> 0:06:25.720 now they're handing it to us and saying, women and 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:28.600 you can do it right, we're coming. So I I 0:06:29.320 --> 0:06:34.680 actually I like boards. Yeah, I like boards. I don't 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:36.800 get me wrong. It's an important thing to do. If 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:41.679 you can do it, you gotta be unbelievably selective. Unbelievably selective. 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:44.080 I mean, what are you selecting for. First of all, 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:45.600 the team with people that you're gonna be sitting around 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:49.680 the table with the other directors. Yeah. The second is 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:53.160 the company. I mean, you know I've been on What 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:55.120 are they doing? I mean, if you're not interested in 0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:57.960 what they're doing? You know some In the beginning, of course, 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:00.680 I was highly just like everybody is here, I want 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:05.919 to be on one. So I picked a road striping company. 0:07:06.120 --> 0:07:10.040 You know, the they they picked me. I didn't pick them, 0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:12.440 they picked me. I had been by the way. It was. 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:15.240 It was fun. I ended up loving the guys. But 0:07:15.320 --> 0:07:20.280 the product, I mean it was it was glass beads 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:23.320 for road striping. And I learned a lot from the company. 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:25.040 But when they you know, we would go on plant 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:29.560 tours and I be like, oh, what about doing so 0:07:29.640 --> 0:07:32.680 I'm making fun of it, but be careful, be aware 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:36.640 that this sounds great, but it takes a lot of 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:38.520 time and a lot of energy, and it takes a 0:07:38.520 --> 0:07:40.840 lot of your emotional time. And you you know, you've 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:43.320 got to read stuff beforehand. You have to have some 0:07:43.400 --> 0:07:46.600 reason besides just saying I'm on one that you want 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:48.760 to be involved. The last thing I'll say on this thing. 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:51.800 If you can get on a private company, go board 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:54.200 a pre I p O board. I would do it 0:07:54.400 --> 0:07:57.080 every single day before I go on a public company board. 0:07:57.200 --> 0:08:00.200 Every day you get paid more money, you get more 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:03.000 involved in the company. The chances of getting rich are 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:08.720 better in a public company. Literally, your compensation is contained 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:12.880 and reported to everyone. Every single year. You can't make 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:16.760 more than x l y money dollars. That's if you 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:20.400 have one meeting or five meetings. Literally, the same amount 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:23.280 of money goes whether you have one or five hundred. 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:25.240 You never have one, right you have six or seven. 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:28.120 But somebody talked about this. If you're in trouble, I'm 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:30.440 gonna board a x On mobile. X On Mobile just 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:35.960 had a proxy fight x on Mobile has ten meetings 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:41.400 a year normally Proxy Fight year. How about and you 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:43.720 just do you have to do them now. They make 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:45.319 it a little bit easy for you. They've tried to 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:47.080 find the time that you can do it. But it's 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:50.160 not you know, it's not it's not all it's cracked 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:52.000 up to be. I would, I would really be careful 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:54.840 about running after this one last thing. I keep saying 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:56.320 the last thing. There is no way you can be 0:08:56.360 --> 0:08:59.880 on four or five boards. Literally, proxy firms like last 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:02.319 who was Succecha won't vote for you, you will literally, 0:09:02.440 --> 0:09:05.319 it's not allowed. You have to be on a certain 0:09:05.400 --> 0:09:08.280 number for your CEO. I was on three when I 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:12.240 was the CEO. Fortunately, two of them were easy, you know. 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:14.320 One of them was American Express, one of the best 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:18.600 round companies out there. Ken also amazing CEO. The board 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:22.599 was phenomenal, so you could actually do that, and you 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:26.120 can do another one that's not so American Express was time, 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:27.760 but easy time, if you know what I mean. It 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:30.920 was not a crisis. Another company that was on was 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:33.199 a crisis and I took a lot of time. And 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:35.880 then the third was in the middle. So it's not 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:37.360 the kind of thing that you do a lot of 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:41.720 and it's not you don't get rich and famous little don't. Yeah, 0:09:41.720 --> 0:09:44.520 I want to push back on that, on that last point. Um, 0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:46.840 so you're on the board or have been on the 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:49.040 board of Uber. I'm still on the boarder was still 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:51.120 on the bo board of Uber. So they've gone through 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:54.520 a lot of stuff. Um, what's that been like, how 0:09:54.559 --> 0:09:57.280 does that work? And how time consuming is it? Well? 0:09:57.320 --> 0:09:59.080 I was on the board of I got on the 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:02.880 board of Uber out come of the mess, right, So 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:05.960 I wasn't I didn't. I wasn't cleing up. You weren't 0:10:05.960 --> 0:10:08.320 in them. I wasn't clean up. Yeah, I wasn't clean up. 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:12.000 I was at the very I was the last board member, 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:15.360 myself and another guy named John Than who were put 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:17.959 on by Travis. And if remember when this whole thing 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:21.880 blew up, Travis had three board seats as part of 0:10:21.960 --> 0:10:26.080 his last as part of his last fight. He was 0:10:26.160 --> 0:10:28.400 one and he picked two others myself and John were 0:10:28.720 --> 0:10:32.480 And then soon after that, did you know, Travis, he 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:34.480 just picked you out of the Yeah, I mean there's 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:36.520 a lot of there's a whole bunch of stories behind 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:38.000 how you know, how you get picked for this crap. 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:40.360 But I'm trying to get the dirt for y'all. I 0:10:40.400 --> 0:10:44.160 hope you appreciate this. Okay, you know I'm trying. I'm trying, Morgan, 0:10:45.520 --> 0:10:47.560 I'm at a point in my life. This may sound 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:49.000 like both. I'm in a point in my life that 0:10:49.040 --> 0:10:50.840 I asked I'm getting I get asked every day to 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:55.040 be on the board or something. Right, So it's now. 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:56.920 But at the at the end of the day, you say, well, 0:10:57.080 --> 0:10:59.560 then it's all because the money is all pretty much 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:02.320 locked for your public it's pretty much there's a very 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:05.560 narrow band, so it's all you're picking for then is 0:11:05.600 --> 0:11:08.400 the team of people and the content of the company. 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:11.280 It's not about the money. Unless if private is better, 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:14.200 like I keep saying, it's a it's a little bit easier. 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:17.480 There's definitely more upside um. You learn a lot more 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:20.200 because it's not as structured, so you have you have 0:11:20.240 --> 0:11:22.080 to set it up yourself. You know. Part of the 0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:25.800 part of going part of being private to go public, 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:29.560 is this whole idea of structuring the governance. So anyway, yeah, 0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:32.480 I'm traveling. Uber turns out to be a really, really, 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:37.440 really great company. Okay, your experience is great, that's what 0:11:37.480 --> 0:11:39.959 you're saying, is there. There's everything about it now is 0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:43.040 so they were in a lot of trouble, right and 0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:46.000 they were, and it wasn't because of profitability. You know. 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:51.640 The story was just crazy place. Yeah, crazy culture, crazy leadership. 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:56.400 Actually probably maybe good at individual people. I never got 0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:58.680 to know them, but together they were definitely not a 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:00.120 group of people that you want to hang out with 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:06.280 a whole lot. And we when we went in, the 0:12:06.320 --> 0:12:10.600 board was being restructured for this disaster, and so the 0:12:10.679 --> 0:12:14.200 company was aware. Travis was even aware who Travis, who 0:12:14.240 --> 0:12:16.720 are like and respect and think he's smart. He, like 0:12:16.720 --> 0:12:18.480 I said, I don't think he could run a public company. 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:21.840 That's not his thing, right, he should have never gotten there. 0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:25.599 But um, I mean starting is good. I mean you 0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:27.320 just go there's a point where you go a little 0:12:27.320 --> 0:12:29.800 bit too far and it's not your specialty and you 0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:32.439 shouldn't really be engaged in it and it's the Peter principle. 0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:36.160 But anyway, when you get on. We got on. We 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:40.080 realized quickly that this company was, you know, a small, 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:43.320 small I p O company with a market valuation of 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:46.640 sixty billion dollars. It's not it's like a this is 0:12:46.640 --> 0:12:48.960 not a game anymore, right, you have it, so you 0:12:49.040 --> 0:12:52.000 have to actually adults in the room. And so they 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:54.720 got old adults in the room, myself and John and 0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:57.480 some other people who knew about things. But the thing 0:12:57.520 --> 0:13:00.280 that was interesting was that they were also very aware 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:03.080 that they were on the edge in every country of 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:06.920 being just like debarred that they were hated. Right, they 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:09.920 were used, They were part of it. But they knew 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:12.480 that if they didn't do something, it would be a problem. 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:16.920 So fortunately they we were bought on the board the 0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:19.600 last two but the whole board realized and the management 0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:22.640 team we got to do something big, and so we 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:26.000 bought in the new CEO, Dara, who used to run Expedia. 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:30.800 He's amazing, he's really really good. This is you know, 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:33.680 he's the guy who I the firm, who I always 0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:36.280 look into when we went through the Charles the George 0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:39.960 Floyd thing. And they're voting the first company, the first 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:43.200 company that signed up for everything without reading the damn 0:13:43.240 --> 0:13:45.960 papers that I'm in and this and this is the 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:49.320 influence you have by being on that board and talking 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:51.520 to the CEO and making sure that they can be 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:54.239 responsive and what the kind of the kind of multiplier 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:57.199 effect that has when something like George Floyd happened. So 0:13:57.480 --> 0:13:59.719 that's the influence and impact you get to have by 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:02.400 being on that that Uber is good. Uber is a 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:04.520 cool company. Exit Mobile is a little bit more challenging. 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:09.760 It's very structured, very legal, it's very risky. You know. 0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:13.120 It's just it has a big operation in Russia. So 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:15.040 now we're sitting here going, okay, now what you know 0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:17.520 not what are you're doing? You can't go visit it. 0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:19.200 You can't you know, you have to get out. You 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:22.240 can't just leave because so you know it, it becomes 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:26.360 very complicated. So you gotta be aware that with the 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:28.600 good comes to bad. When the bad comes, you gotta 0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:31.120 do the work. Do you select certain or do you 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:36.200 have certain committees that you only serve on or always, always, always, 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:38.080 always every board that I'm on on on the Order 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:41.560 committee number one. Yeah, that that's where I started with 0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:43.000 you to me, and I think it's such a good 0:14:43.040 --> 0:14:46.000 learning experience, even for a company that's about to go public, 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:48.480 knowing how you have to get everything in order, from 0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:52.120 cybersecurity to your tax situation, all that has to be 0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:54.600 clean before you go public. Knowing how to do all 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:58.080 that stuff from the audit perspective is every company needs that? 0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:01.640 Is that? Why? Yeah, well well must I'm with a 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:04.240 sitting CEO, so I'm a certified financial experts. I can 0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:06.680 do it. The problem with being on the Order committee 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:09.520 is that it's real work. This is not I mean, 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:12.600 I mean really like you have to sign your name 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:15.920 to stuff that I've read this. It's not like. It's 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:20.080 not like nominations and governance where you can get which 0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:23.040 is how we gonna. Let's not slam. Now I'm good. 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:25.720 I take that very seriously. By the way, Terry, now 0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:27.880 I'm gone. But I was just saying how important it is. 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:35.000 Not not so four committees what it is required. Nobody 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:37.400 wants to do it. Nobody wants to do it. It's 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:40.880 a lot. It's so if there are seven board meetings 0:15:40.880 --> 0:15:43.360 in the year, they're ten Order committee meetings, right, So 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:45.800 it's just a lot more work. It's it is if 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:47.880 you're not into it, kind of boring. And if you're 0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:49.720 not good at it and don't just don't do it. 0:15:49.720 --> 0:15:51.280 I mean, there's no reason to do it. There's a 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:53.240 lot of other things you can be doing. And I 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:55.480 just happen to like it and and be good at it. 0:15:55.520 --> 0:15:59.800 That's the reason NONN is important, important and compensation is important, 0:15:59.800 --> 0:16:02.640 so that two rocking committees are those two right now, 0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:04.760 I'm and GOV, which is a whole bunch of glory 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:07.200 and comp which everybody seems to like you because you 0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:11.200 control that, what with the salary, the CEO and other 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:13.640 people and some people like that. But I think any committee, 0:16:13.640 --> 0:16:15.800 I think you know, any committee is fine. It's something 0:16:15.800 --> 0:16:19.360 that you can be useful on, you can contribute to. Okay, 0:16:19.400 --> 0:16:21.360 now I tried to get you to answer this, but 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:26.080 I'm gonna try again. Which is that, um, having been 0:16:26.120 --> 0:16:30.160 the CEO, I know that you've had favorite directors, or 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:33.200 at least favorite directors, and I want to know more 0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:35.360 about that so that when they get on the boards 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:38.160 they know how to really Like I've been told by 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:40.640 the CEO, I'm his favorite director. Right now, I'm like, 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:42.960 I'm not sure exactly what I did, but I think 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:45.680 it helps that I've been a CEO and I know 0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:49.200 how to not micromanage, you know, give him alerts about 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:52.480 whatever it is. But what from your perspective, what makes 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:56.120 for a great director? Knowing what their jobs one of 0:16:56.120 --> 0:16:59.720 the one of the big challenges always every board I've 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:03.400 ever been on small, big, private, public there's at least 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:06.920 one director who actually wants to run the company and 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:10.760 who who actually asked questions like you know, what was 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:16.320 the turnover of the popcorn? And it's like who that's 0:17:16.359 --> 0:17:18.880 not that's something that's interesting that you should probably talk 0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:21.439 to the CEO about over lunch, but it's not a 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:26.040 director level of question, and so knowing the most challenging 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:29.680 I've been CEO of two public companies. The most challenging 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:34.760 thing is a bad director. It is unbelievably bad. Um 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:38.680 It's very difficult for the CEO. It's usually very time 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:41.600 consuming for the rest of the board because they're generally 0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:43.800 out of sync and a lot of you know, we 0:17:43.840 --> 0:17:46.000 get down a lot of rabbit holes, and it's and 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:48.080 it's hard to get rid of a director. Once you 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:53.240 get them on. It's reputationally very challenging to just kind 0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:56.080 of throw them off or you can't. You can't just 0:17:56.160 --> 0:17:59.160 throw them off, and it's just very it's a very 0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:00.960 challenging thing. So the first thing is to make sure 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:02.960 that you know what your what your job is, and 0:18:03.000 --> 0:18:05.080 it's generally not to run the place. And if it is, 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:07.280 if you are trying to run into place. The CEO 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:09.520 should probably be changed. I mean, you got the wrong boss. 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:12.359 So that's what that person's job is. The other thing 0:18:12.440 --> 0:18:14.560 is it did someone just asshole personalities that you just 0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:17.399 don't want to be part of. And everybody has a 0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:20.440 different swing lane that they're into, So let's make sure. 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:22.240 That's why it's really important to the the group that is 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:25.240 there already. Just make sure that you like the group 0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:29.320 that's there. Okay, that's very helpful. Now for people who 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:34.000 are still coming up in their careers and they want to, um, 0:18:34.359 --> 0:18:37.520 get experienced, to know how to interface with directors and 0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:40.000 and that sort of thing. Um, are there things that 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:43.040 they should do to know the boards of director, like 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:46.800 the directors on their company or anything like that. Okay, Okay, 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:49.520 to be away from this is okay, it's a bad thing. 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:53.119 Stay away from this. You you know, the board of 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:55.480 your company when you should know them right and when 0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:58.280 you're sitting in the c suite or or have some 0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:01.439 kind of a role that requires that you interface with 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:04.359 them on a regular basis or any basis, that's fine. 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:08.399 Otherwise I assure you you will not become a member 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:10.120 of the c suite if you spend your time trying 0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:12.320 to get to know your directors. You should try to 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:15.080 spend your time getting to know your job, right because 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:19.640 it's it is really, really, really risky. This is not 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:24.080 a game of politics at this level, right, they are 0:19:24.200 --> 0:19:27.240 governed into your operations. When you get in the governance, 0:19:27.240 --> 0:19:29.080 then there's a lot of politics. But you can't play 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:31.480 politics when you're the surf and they're the king. Right, 0:19:31.520 --> 0:19:33.679 So it's not the kind of thing that that you do. 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:36.440 You should just stay this is becoming right, So we 0:19:36.520 --> 0:19:39.760 spend we're gonna spend five minutes talking about boards of 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:42.200 directors where the vast majority of people in this room 0:19:42.440 --> 0:19:45.280 will never serve on one. Right. Before you do that, 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:48.440 you got to get to the point where people say, yeah, 0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:51.199 we want that person to serve on one. And the 0:19:51.240 --> 0:19:52.760 way that you get there is that you have to 0:19:52.800 --> 0:19:57.840 actually do work that somebody says that's reasonable. That's a 0:19:57.840 --> 0:20:00.840 person who being the CFO of some company is a 0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:04.200 really good idea. It's a good it's a good checkpoint 0:20:04.280 --> 0:20:07.760 so you can get through. Being the CEO obviously is 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:10.399 a really good idea. If you have some really specific 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:13.880 tech skill, if you're a master at cybersecurity, if you're 0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:16.240 good at digital marketing or are one of these things, 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:20.080 then you can be selected. But if you're just an 0:20:20.080 --> 0:20:22.240 employee of a company, just it's not a bit just 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:27.720 it's not a demeaning just it's just like you just um, 0:20:27.760 --> 0:20:31.400 if you're that, you know, spending your time to try 0:20:31.400 --> 0:20:33.760 to maneuver your way into the boardroom, it's really not 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:36.640 the most useful. It's not the most useful thing. I 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:39.080 if I could say over and over again, guys, when 0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:41.800 it comes, it will come. Look for it. Don't spend 0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:43.840 your time not looking, you know, look for it occasionally. 0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:45.639 When it comes, it will come, and you'll be ready. 0:20:45.760 --> 0:20:47.560 If you get there before you ready, it's a waste 0:20:47.560 --> 0:20:50.320 of goddamn time. It's not that much money, and it's 0:20:50.080 --> 0:20:53.239 it's it's just it. Yeah, And it's not that much 0:20:53.320 --> 0:20:55.800 fame and fortune unless you get unless you get on 0:20:55.840 --> 0:21:01.080 the board of Apple, Amazon, let's talk to this fifties 0:21:01.119 --> 0:21:02.720 that you if you can get on the board of 0:21:02.840 --> 0:21:06.440 Airbnb before it goes you know, those kinds of companies, Yeah, 0:21:06.480 --> 0:21:10.080 that's great. Otherwise it's just otherwise you're an unsung hero. 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:13.800 It's for your gratification, Okay, it's just work. Okay, great, excellent, 0:21:15.800 --> 0:21:19.399 got it? Um Okay? I think yes, she is so 0:21:19.480 --> 0:21:22.040