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Speaker 1: I'm Will Lucas, and this is black tech, Green money.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Tiffany Say Bernard is the CEO and founder of

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Speaker 1: hair Days, of one of the kind hair intelligence platform

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Speaker 1: providing personalized hair scalp and holistic wellness insights. We do

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Speaker 1: a lot of things to our hair and thus our

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Speaker 1: scalps that we often don't realize can be damage you.

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Speaker 1: So before we talk about her technology, I asked doctor

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Speaker 1: save Bernard to talk about some of the more common

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Speaker 1: things that happen in our community regarding our hair that

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Speaker 1: don't do us any good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So, I mean, I think that it's gaining a

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Speaker 2: lot of popularity. Attraction alokashia, for example. Attraction alpicia is

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Speaker 2: like hair loss due to tight hairstyles. And we we

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Speaker 2: love our braides, our putting tails, you know, our slick

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Speaker 2: baby hairs, but it actually doesn't require that much force

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Speaker 2: to kind of start ripping them out. And we basically

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Speaker 2: normalize like having bums or pain after braids. But that

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Speaker 2: should shouldn't be happening if it was done correctly.

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Speaker 1: So let's let's talk a little bit more about it.

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Speaker 1: I used to have braids a while ago, and I

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Speaker 1: always grew up thinking, well, this is just part par

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Speaker 1: for the course, Like you ask for this, you know,

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Speaker 1: nice braids, and you know this is what comes with it.

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Speaker 1: You know it costs the flaws, you know.

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Speaker 3: So so how do you get.

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Speaker 1: A community of people who maybe going to somebody in

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Speaker 1: their kitchen or maybe in somebody's basement, like, look, you're

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Speaker 1: actually doing yourself more of a disservice than you think.

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Speaker 1: How do you communicate that to us?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think, And I would also say

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Speaker 2: another thing that's hard about braids is sometimes you don't

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Speaker 2: know it's tight until you're halfway through the head start

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Speaker 2: feeling the pain. But I think making sure that you

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Speaker 2: are looking for a stylists or friends or family that

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Speaker 2: are doing the heir that are really focused on healthy

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Speaker 2: your practices. And so when you say like this is

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Speaker 2: like feeling tight or whatever, they're willing to redo it.

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Speaker 2: And so I really look for that in the styles

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Speaker 2: that I work with or or like spoles that I

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Speaker 2: go to. I make sure that they're okay with They

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Speaker 2: don't see me as like a diva for saying, hey,

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Speaker 2: this is a little bit too tight or please redo

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Speaker 2: this one. They usually happen to do that because they

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Speaker 2: don't want your edges ripped out and you're not coming

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Speaker 2: back right or you're not happy right services.

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Speaker 1: And so when I see people like you who are

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Speaker 1: doing these remarkable things technology, leveraging technology to help our

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Speaker 1: community in ways that historically we haven't had, I get

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Speaker 1: interested in how these ideas came about, because you could

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Speaker 1: have done a lot of things. You could have decided,

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Speaker 1: you know, I want to do you know, hair moisturizer.

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Speaker 1: You could have said I'm going to go do a

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Speaker 1: new style of hot Combe, but you decided to use

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Speaker 1: technology to help educate us.

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Speaker 3: What was the.

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Speaker 1: Impetus that said this is the angle I'm going to

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Speaker 1: take to make our community be healthier in this way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so it came actually from my own personal hair

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Speaker 2: health journey. Originally, my idea for her days was around

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Speaker 2: like a hair logging app which I which is like

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Speaker 2: you know, basically like a mind fit health for hair

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Speaker 2: and scalp help, which we still have a lot of

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Speaker 2: those elements. But in twenty sixteen, I was I almost

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Speaker 2: passed away. I was hospitalized in the ICU and then

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Speaker 2: out lost a lot of my hair, and I saw

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Speaker 2: the deep connection between health, mental health and overall wellness,

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Speaker 2: and oftentimes hair is seen as like it's just beauty,

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Speaker 2: it's just superficial. But I realized how it took a

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Speaker 2: major toll on my self esteem, and I realized that

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Speaker 2: it's just not it's not only me, and that's was

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Speaker 2: really the the inspiration behind like the AI approach to

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Speaker 2: what we're doing now, and as well as the tying

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Speaker 2: in wellness and education in what we're providing.

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Speaker 1: You know, I think there's something there and I don't

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Speaker 1: have a question behind it, but I want to say

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Speaker 1: I think there's something to that, because you know, if

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Speaker 1: you like research, like scientists scientifically.

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Speaker 3: About hair, it's like they call it dead follows.

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Speaker 1: It's like it's not really like a nerve in it, right,

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Speaker 1: So you're like your hair, you don't feel it when

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Speaker 1: it gets cut that scientists tell you. But I really

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Speaker 1: have a lot of hair number one, and I can

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Speaker 1: feel something when my hair is cut. And so I

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Speaker 1: don't know what that is or if I said spiritual

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Speaker 1: or neurological, I don't know how to define that. But

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Speaker 1: the fact that people say, you know, well, it's just

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Speaker 1: hair and you can cut it, and it's like it

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean anything to you to your point about confidence,

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Speaker 1: like it's more than just you know, a beauty thing,

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Speaker 1: or it's more in just you know in that way.

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Speaker 1: But I do feel like there's something that I don't

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Speaker 1: know if you have anything to answer that. I didn't

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Speaker 1: really have a question, but I do feel like there's

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Speaker 1: something more to it than just something sitting on top

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Speaker 1: of my head.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and many cultures your hair is like it's part

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Speaker 2: of your spirituality or ritual or even religion. And I

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Speaker 2: definitely think there's a lot of power in your hair

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Speaker 2: and it definitely tied to how you feel about yourself.

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Speaker 2: Right you look there, you feel good? I want to

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Speaker 2: That's I think. Also hair is also a area for creativity,

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Speaker 2: and so what looks one is, you know, allows us

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Speaker 2: to empower ourselves through creative like, Hey, my hair's turkoise

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Speaker 2: because I love.

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Speaker 3: I love it.

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Speaker 1: So when you get an idea for an app like this,

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Speaker 1: how do you start off? So you like, do you

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Speaker 1: automatically think I need to go raise money? Do you

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Speaker 1: automatically think I need I need to go learn how

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Speaker 1: to code?

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Speaker 2: Why?

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Speaker 3: What is what are the first steps you take?

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Speaker 1: Because I'm imagining because I did not read that you

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Speaker 1: were an engineer, I mean that you're a scientists and

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Speaker 1: so so talk to me about how do you how

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Speaker 1: do you get started in this way?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? So, actually the reason why'm my engineer is I

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Speaker 2: was really passionate about solving. Like I said, I'm interested

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Speaker 2: in the big problems that are overlooked, and I was

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Speaker 2: really interested in building technology. And when I would talk

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Speaker 2: to investors that like, you're not engineering, so I was like, fine,

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Speaker 2: give a PhDa engineering. You can't tell me that. Through

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Speaker 2: the journey, I realized that in building a business you

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Speaker 2: really need a team. And so really you should really

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Speaker 2: reflect on your background or where your strengths are and

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Speaker 2: figure out where, like, depending on what you're building, what

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Speaker 2: the weaknesses are, and fill your team with those weaknesses.

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Speaker 2: So like, holistically, you guys are rock solid in all

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Speaker 2: the airrors that are required to build your business. But

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Speaker 2: to answer your question about how do you start, first

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Speaker 2: step always should be customer discovery. One of the number

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Speaker 2: one reasons. I think it's like number two. So I

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Speaker 2: think number one reasons most businesses fail is because they

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Speaker 2: run out of money. Number two is because they don't

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Speaker 2: have customers. But I would argue the reason that they

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Speaker 2: don't have they run out of money is because they're

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Speaker 2: selling to they don't have customer enough customers. So I

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Speaker 2: really feel like the number one issue really is you're building.

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Speaker 2: Oftentimes people have these really amazing ideas and sometimes they

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Speaker 2: may come from like my self, founder story or journey,

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Speaker 2: but it may be that it really doesn't happen to

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Speaker 2: enough people that has a burning issue or problem that

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Speaker 2: they want to pay for. And so customer discovery is

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Speaker 2: the first step. And so customer discovery is basically going

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Speaker 2: out and talking to your potential customer. And it's not

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Speaker 2: asking them what your idea is or telling them what

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Speaker 2: your ideas and asking for the feedback and the idea.

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Speaker 2: That's a second third phase of customer discovery process. It's

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Speaker 2: really about understanding their problems and listening for are they

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Speaker 2: saying what you think like your idea is or like

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Speaker 2: coming somewhere close to that, right, So really listening to

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Speaker 2: the customer and understanding what the problems are and building

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Speaker 2: for that instead of building and they will come. That

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Speaker 2: works sometimes if you're lucky. Nine times out of ten

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Speaker 2: it does not work.

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Speaker 1: So talk to me because I hear you, I want

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Speaker 1: to reiterate what you just said. It's not about telling

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Speaker 1: them what your ideas and asking them what they think.

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Speaker 1: Is really trying to dig into what their problems are

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Speaker 1: and what maybe they be doing today to solve those problems.

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Speaker 1: So so many entrepreneurs during that process can't help themselves

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Speaker 1: but to talk about their idea and their solutions. So

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Speaker 1: how do you frame those questions to ensure that you're

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Speaker 1: not taining the responses that you're getting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so a good place to start is open ended questions.

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Speaker 2: So if I was starting here days over today again,

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Speaker 2: I may ask people like, hey, tell me about your

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Speaker 2: your hair, like any do you face any problems or challenges?

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Speaker 2: What are the number one things that you wish that

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Speaker 2: you could solve? I would also add that people are

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Speaker 2: really good at telling the problems with not necessarily solutions.

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Speaker 2: So people may come up with cool ideas, but oftentimes

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Speaker 2: the ideas that come up with may not even be

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Speaker 2: things that they would use themselves. Do you have to

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Speaker 2: be careful with that when you're asking people for feedback,

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Speaker 2: because they'll come up with some really cool ideas and

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Speaker 2: then you ask them would you use that? And they're like,

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Speaker 2: maybe sounds cool, but in reality it's just a cool idea.

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Speaker 2: Not something that they would actually really use. So there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of bias there in the feedback. So just

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Speaker 2: listen to them talking about their story and you have

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Speaker 2: to extrapolate or figure out what they really mean, like

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Speaker 2: between the lines.

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Speaker 1: So, how did you come to a place where you

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Speaker 1: knew that people would pay for this? Because it's one

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Speaker 1: thing to say, hey, I have a conditioner for you,

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Speaker 1: it's another thing to say, hey, I have an educational

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Speaker 1: tool that actually helps you track to find the conditioner.

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Speaker 1: How do you get to a place that you knew

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Speaker 1: they would pull out their wallet?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I I personally and maybe hundreds of women

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Speaker 2: around their problems and concerns and so on. So that's

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Speaker 2: kind of through the customer discovery process. I realize that

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Speaker 2: we have something here that we're building. So yeah, so

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Speaker 2: then we push forward with the development process. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So there was this quote I found you were doing

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Speaker 1: another interview, and I'm going.

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Speaker 3: To tell you what you said and have a question.

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Speaker 3: You said.

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Speaker 1: You said, there's a classic inventor's mistake of being so

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Speaker 1: caught up in problem solving that you take for granted

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Speaker 1: that the way your solution is built and the way

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Speaker 1: your customer may find it most useful may be slightly different.

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Speaker 3: So many of them.

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Speaker 1: You remember saying that, first of all, so many of

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Speaker 1: us start off in business because we have an idea

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Speaker 1: that we just know will work, or we assume it

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Speaker 1: will work.

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Speaker 3: In the marketplace.

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Speaker 1: And what you're saying is, you know often we're wrong,

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Speaker 1: and so.

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Speaker 3: How do we ensure that we avoid that trap.

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Speaker 1: Of being so romantic about the idea Because what happened

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Speaker 1: to your point about customer discovery is we'll get so

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Speaker 1: romantic about our ideas, will taint our questions in a

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Speaker 1: way to get the answers that we want.

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Speaker 2: Yes, we will ask leading questions, and when you ask

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Speaker 2: lead the questions, we always hear what you want to

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Speaker 2: hear always. I mean, I tie oftentimes use like dating analogies,

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Speaker 2: but I think it also happens in like the dating world.

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Speaker 2: Right Oftentimes you're like, does he really like me? Does

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Speaker 2: she really like me? Do they really like me? And

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Speaker 2: you everything they do, you're kind of rocking around this

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Speaker 2: fantasy of them loving you or wanting to be with you,

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Speaker 2: but they're telling you through their actions, through their feedback,

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Speaker 2: through everything, that they're not interested. But you really want

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Speaker 2: them to say yes, right, or really want them to

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Speaker 2: be with you. That happens in business too, right. It's

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Speaker 2: just a human nature that we want people we want

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Speaker 2: to be right, And it's not necessarily about always about ego.

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Speaker 2: It's about like we're so passionate about what we're doing,

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Speaker 2: we don't want to be wrong right. Well, in business,

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Speaker 2: and especially if you're building a high tech adventure, you

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Speaker 2: have to be okay with realizing that you're wrong and

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Speaker 2: pivoting and doing that quickly.

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Speaker 1: So I log into the app the first time, talk

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Speaker 1: to me about some of the questions you ask or

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Speaker 1: things you asked me to do to help develop a

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Speaker 1: profile for myself.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so today we're asking a lot about your symptoms

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Speaker 2: and concerns. So when you log in, of course you

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Speaker 2: create your profile and now you can also log into

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Speaker 2: social and then once you're in the app, we're asking

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Speaker 2: about your symptoms, concerns, and goals, and then we're curating

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Speaker 2: our educational insights based on that. Later this year we

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Speaker 2: also introducing a lot of the hair analysis related AI

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Speaker 2: tools to help even further enhance your part of discovery

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Speaker 2: here during process.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So, so on the other side of that, I'm assuming

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Speaker 1: because I don't know your business model, So we're gonna

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Speaker 1: talk about that. You may you may suggest a certain

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Speaker 1: type of conditioner or a certain you know for me.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it may be one day in aftershave or something

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Speaker 1: like that, Right, And so how do you get the

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Speaker 1: information from those products to be able to match me

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Speaker 1: to the best things for me? So I I may

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Speaker 1: say my my symptoms are X, Y and Z, and

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Speaker 1: you give me, you know, teaching or something that will

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Speaker 1: fix my problem. So how are you marrying me technologically.

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Speaker 3: To the thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm excited that my team is full of

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Speaker 2: uh cosmetic chemists. We have dermatologists by collegiest cosmetologists like

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Speaker 2: all the oligists and so or we like. We have

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Speaker 2: a research team that does a lot of the research

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Speaker 2: behind it reent level analysis and then matching keys. We

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Speaker 2: also do partner with brands so that we can get

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Speaker 2: more robust data. But even if we're not directly working

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Speaker 2: with the brand, we can still do the research on

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Speaker 2: the ingredients that are on the label to be able

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Speaker 2: to make a better, more informed recommendation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So there's so many brands out there, how do

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Speaker 1: you decide? Okay, here's here's the slate of the ones

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Speaker 1: we're going to review next.

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Speaker 3: How do you How does that process work?

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Speaker 2: We do it based on popularity and which ones are

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Speaker 2: most common. We're always looking for the next best products

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Speaker 2: out there as well to add to our portfolio.

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Speaker 1: So there's I'm sure you would know this even probably

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Speaker 1: better than I. There's this movement towards things that are

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Speaker 1: that have less chemicals. You know, that are less you

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Speaker 1: know that are better sustainable for overall health and well being.

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Speaker 1: So as we become more knowledgeable about the product's chemistry

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Speaker 1: is about to make up of the products that the

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Speaker 1: things use. I'm assuming you at you're not just giving

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Speaker 1: me recommendation, but maybe also educating me. For one day,

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Speaker 1: you'll be educating me. So talk to me about trends

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Speaker 1: that you're seeing with people's desires changing, with the types

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Speaker 1: of products they want to use, and how you know

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Speaker 1: hair days may help us there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So, I mean you're absolutely right, and people are

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Speaker 2: really becoming more informed and more informed educated user around

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Speaker 2: our customer, around ingredients and like war works and what

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Speaker 2: doesn't work. And in addition to that, like product companies

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Speaker 2: as well as like government is also listening to that

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Speaker 2: as well, and so they changing things based on what

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Speaker 2: the consumer is looking for, right, Like, you know, we

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Speaker 2: demand it. Eventually, there has to be a change on

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Speaker 2: the other end, right to meet that demand. So we

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Speaker 2: actually have a grant through the Health and Human Services

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Speaker 2: the Federal GROM to help support some of the research

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Speaker 2: around helping black women avoid indocrine distructing chemicals in the product.

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Speaker 2: So intercren destructing chemicals are basically you can see as

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Speaker 2: toxic ingredients that tend to affect the intercosystems or like

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Speaker 2: hormones in the body, so that could be reproductive issues,

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Speaker 2: that could be why it leads to fibroids, like or

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Speaker 2: like cancers and so on. So there's a lot of

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Speaker 2: ingredients that are in our products that may not be

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Speaker 2: the safest and so we are working really hard to

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Speaker 2: be able to provide the education and insights so that

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Speaker 2: individual can make more informed decisions on their product purchase.

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Speaker 1: Do you see a day where you may just develop

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Speaker 1: your own products to help support the need in the

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Speaker 1: marketplace for better things?

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Speaker 2: Possibly, But I really want to be brand agnostic. I

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Speaker 2: think that there's so many products already existing and one

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Speaker 2: of the issues is which one works, which one doesn't work,

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Speaker 2: And I want to be able to take a non

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Speaker 2: bias approach when we're making recommendations versus saying, you know,

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Speaker 2: because if we have our own brand, then I would

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Speaker 2: assume that we're more likely, hey, you should try hear

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Speaker 2: these branded products. But I really want to be able

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Speaker 2: to educate the consumer and help them navigate these thousands

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Speaker 2: or millions of products that exist already. Let's do that first.

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Speaker 1: So I think about what you're doing from let's say,

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Speaker 1: from an investor's perspective. You know, historically we've gotten so

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Speaker 1: much pushback from venture capital community that will say, you know, well,

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Speaker 1: what the black hair market is not big enough. Obviously

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Speaker 1: we know that's not true. So talk to me about

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Speaker 1: the types of questions you've had to answer your fundraising

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Speaker 1: journey in general, and how you've you know, positioned this

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Speaker 1: as like this is a big opportunity.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I definitely echo everything you said that. It's

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Speaker 2: definitely been a struggle, especially a year or two ago,

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Speaker 2: where the industry was not as AI machine learning detech

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Speaker 2: is like ubiquitous almost, or like it's trying to be

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Speaker 2: like every industry is trying to adopt AI. So there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of big shift there. So but in haircare

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Speaker 2: on like many other industries, it's really on tapped. So

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Speaker 2: it's like when you're when you're entering a new market,

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Speaker 2: the question that investors are asking is do people want it?

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Speaker 2: Is that why it doesn't exist in this place? Or

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Speaker 2: are you just like like realize, are you just lucky

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Speaker 2: where you identified an opportunity that no one else has

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Speaker 2: really wanted to tap into. And so that's one of

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Speaker 2: the major struggles and pitching in an area that is

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Speaker 2: really new and innovative.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so when you because I was reading your LinkedIn

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Speaker 1: and it talks about some multi billion dollar fragmented hair market.

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Speaker 3: So often we hear.

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Speaker 1: You know, on shows like Shark Tank or even in

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Speaker 1: venture capital offices, we will hear startup founders entrepreneurs say,

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Speaker 1: you know, if I can just get like one percent

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Speaker 1: of this market, then that'll be like gazillion dollars, you know,

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Speaker 1: just like it's crazy, And there's a lot of pushback

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Speaker 1: when they have those types of positionings like if you

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Speaker 1: can just get this of if you can get just

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Speaker 1: X of Y, and so.

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Speaker 3: How do you position this as a.

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Speaker 1: Big opportunity but still be grounded in what you can

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Speaker 1: actually achieve.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we took. We talk about it from a phased

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Speaker 2: rollout approach instead of saying, like, you know what, in

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Speaker 2: the next year or so, we're just going to capture

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Speaker 2: like fifty percent of this multi billion dollar market that

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Speaker 2: we talk about, like the segment the market even further

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Speaker 2: down and too much smaller like fragments, and and talk

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Speaker 2: about how you start with this one niche and and

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Speaker 2: then how it builds on to the next domain and

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Speaker 2: and so one it grows from there. There's a lot

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Speaker 2: of the work that we're doing. I see a lot

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Speaker 2: of value also in the healthcare space, right so we're

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Speaker 2: starting in the beauty space because it's uh there's it's

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Speaker 2: like easier path to revenue and easier path to enter

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Speaker 2: the market. But there's also so many other areas that

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Speaker 2: we could have working, like from drug discovery process to

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Speaker 2: the more like uh more health related UH disorders for example,

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Speaker 2: like analyze the different forms about lakisia for example. The

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Speaker 2: hair scalare space is like a blue ocean right now,

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Speaker 2: and so there's a lot of opportunities to grow and

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Speaker 2: talking about this stage roll up process is definitely one

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Speaker 2: that has helped us.

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Speaker 1: They just had me thinking about something that I didn't

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Speaker 1: think about this before. But what I see like a

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Speaker 1: lot of value in like the data that you get

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Speaker 1: to you know, compile, you know, so like you're able

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Speaker 1: to over time be able to say, you know what

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Speaker 1: if we drill down in the data, we can tell

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Speaker 1: you know, women in the southwest of the United States

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Speaker 1: deal more with dandrift than women in the Midwest, and

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Speaker 1: that could be valuable to you know, some company. So

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Speaker 1: did you see this as a data play or did

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Speaker 1: you see this purely as like, you know, a solution

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Speaker 1: for people who have bad here, because there's both there.

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Speaker 2: In my view, Yeah, we see it as a data

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Speaker 2: from the perspective of like summary or reports, not selling

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Speaker 2: individual data. So we don't we're not in the business

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Speaker 2: of selling like Susie from insights insights, but the insights

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Speaker 2: that can help ultimately help the end consumer. So like

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Speaker 2: you said, like, hey, people in this environment are having

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Speaker 2: these types of struggles or concerns. Being able to help

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Speaker 2: individuals that are tackling those concerns concerns better do that.

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Speaker 2: I want to empower individuals to businesses, brands, you name it,

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Speaker 2: to solve the end consumer's problems.

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Speaker 1: So talk to me because you mentioned this when you

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Speaker 1: mentioned you know, when you talk to venture capitalists and

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Speaker 1: angel investors, you know, how come this isn't in the

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Speaker 1: market yet or is this something that you love and

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Speaker 1: actually wouldn't work. Talk to me about how important timing is,

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Speaker 1: because could you have done this ten years ago or

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Speaker 1: would this still be an opportunity ten years from now?

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Speaker 1: We don't know, But how important is timing?

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Speaker 2: Timing is everything. You can look at it and even

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Speaker 2: other other industries like I cannot remember the name of

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Speaker 2: the company, so forgive me for this. But even in

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Speaker 2: the like personal community computer spaces or like smaller devices

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Speaker 2: space like there are companies that were in the market

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Speaker 2: before Apple right, for example, but they didn't win because

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Speaker 2: the timing was the right. People didn't want what they

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Speaker 2: were offering yet they were not They were not ready

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Speaker 2: to adopt this personal computer at home device. So it's

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Speaker 2: time match with good technology, matched with like whatever. Meeting

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Speaker 2: the consumer or the customers end goals is everything. You

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Speaker 2: can have the best idea and it won't it won't

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Speaker 2: work for the next ten years just because the market

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Speaker 2: is not ready or too early, or you could be

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Speaker 2: too late.

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Speaker 1: So what did what did you see in the market

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Speaker 1: said this is the right time.

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Speaker 2: So I would say that we were I think we

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Speaker 2: were a little bit early, but we stuck with it

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Speaker 2: because we saw where the industry is going and we

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Speaker 2: just ignored naysayers. And so we were lucky that the

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Speaker 2: with my background or PhD and background research, we were

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Speaker 2: able to secure a number of grants that allowed us

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Speaker 2: to keep going and keep doing the research while the

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Speaker 2: industry catches up. So now it's like now like some

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Speaker 2: of the like the bigger brands are really interested in

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Speaker 2: what we're building. But back a year or so ago,

440
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 2: it was a very different conversations.

441
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I've heard you talk about grants a couple

442
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,199
Speaker 1: of times, and I read online about some of the grants.

443
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,600
Speaker 1: Is there talking about that fundraising journey outside of grants?

444
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,040
Speaker 1: Is this something that you've already raised the angel investor

445
00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:47,520
Speaker 1: dollars from bene capitalism or are you on that path?

446
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:53,400
Speaker 2: Yes, our fundraising journey is we have secured a number

447
00:22:53,440 --> 00:23:00,880
Speaker 2: of angel and bench capital investments through our network. And

448
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:03,760
Speaker 2: but but I I always lean on grass because I

449
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:07,120
Speaker 2: think it's a really powerful tool that is under used

450
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 2: and under leveraged.

451
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:10,199
Speaker 1: Often.

452
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:16,639
Speaker 2: Oh that's that too, I think I should I should

453
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 2: live with that part.

454
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,760
Speaker 1: I'm not giving up nothing, you know, yeah you.

455
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 2: And also allows grass grass don't have the expectation that

456
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,119
Speaker 2: you have to have a product, that you could be

457
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,199
Speaker 2: tinkering and figuring this out, and that empowers you to

458
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 2: be more creative because you're not worried about well what

459
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:39,720
Speaker 2: if I don't hit my mouth stones? Right, Like, as

460
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:43,440
Speaker 2: long as you can say, hey, I tried this, this

461
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 2: was my scientific approach, this is what why we tried

462
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:50,160
Speaker 2: this direction and this it didn't go, well, you can

463
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 2: still at another grant.

464
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,880
Speaker 1: So yeah, so what puts you like what how did

465
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,679
Speaker 1: you find out like that was an option for you? Like,

466
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:00,960
Speaker 1: was it because you were doing, you know, something that

467
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:05,200
Speaker 1: was scientific and biologically related or you know, like what

468
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 1: matched you to that that journey especially?

469
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:14,360
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, grants were I think one of my advisors,

470
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,640
Speaker 2: I think told me about one of the grant opportunities.

471
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,440
Speaker 2: And then it's kind of like most times in networking, right,

472
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:22,959
Speaker 2: you started at this party, you talk about what you're doing,

473
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 2: and then someone tells you about this other opportunity and

474
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 2: this other opportunity. So it kind of ended like that,

475
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,480
Speaker 2: like started like that. However, I would say there are

476
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 2: plenty of grants that exists that are non like deep

477
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 2: tech or research heavy grants. Right, they may be on

478
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 2: the smaller side, but they're still pretty sizable, like ten

479
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:46,720
Speaker 2: thousand dollars, twenty five thousand dollars, yeah, or some of

480
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 2: the more like deeptech grants maybe quarter million and a

481
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,159
Speaker 2: half a million, a million dollars. But there are still

482
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 2: a lot of opportunities to tap into that while you're

483
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,399
Speaker 2: trying to figure out exactly how things work. And a

484
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 2: lot of those programs also have customer discovery built in,

485
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 2: so they'll teach you how to interview people, they'll teach

486
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 2: you how to figure out like red between the lines,

487
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 2: like I was mentioning, So, I I know I keep

488
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 2: bringing up with grants part, but it's for reasons.

489
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 3: I love it. I love it.

490
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 1: So there's this old Wayne Gretzky quote where he said,

491
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 1: you know, you can't skate to where the puck is.

492
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,639
Speaker 1: You got to skate to where it's going. And you know,

493
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,439
Speaker 1: when you started this business a few years ago, like

494
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 1: we were, we talked about AI, but it was really

495
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 1: more about crypto and blockchain, you know, and maybe the metaverse.

496
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 1: You know, back then, how did AI come into the conversation, Like,

497
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,680
Speaker 1: what was the impetus to bring that artificial intelligence into

498
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 1: the conversation years ago when we weren't talking about that

499
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:48,200
Speaker 1: at the scale that we are now.

500
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 2: I think I we realized that one of the issues

501
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 2: is individuals that are trying to figure out what works

502
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,959
Speaker 2: what doesn't work for the hair. That diagnosis piece is

503
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 2: oftentimes incorrect. So realizing that individuals are like struggling with

504
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 2: being able to kind of first you got to actually

505
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 2: identify what the real problem is, uh, and then you're

506
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 2: able to treat it. And so when I talk to

507
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,200
Speaker 2: a number of our experts, like the different trichologists which

508
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 2: are hair experts or dermatologists, oftentimes the individual will come

509
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:22,919
Speaker 2: in and say, hey, I have oily hair or I

510
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 2: have dry hair, and oftentimes they have the opposite. So

511
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 2: if they're treating their hair for being oily right when

512
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 2: they have dry hair, they might be actually perpetuating the problem,

513
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 2: making it even worse. And so being able to use

514
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 2: computer vision or AI to be able to extract those

515
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:45,360
Speaker 2: concerns and automatically recommend the problems, recommend based on those

516
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 2: problems is where the idea came from.

517
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 1: Going back to what I talked about, you know, with

518
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:53,639
Speaker 1: your LinkedIn say, you know this is a multi billion

519
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 1: dollar fragmented hair market. I want to pull out that

520
00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 1: word fragmented, because I think it's important in so many

521
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 1: ways in my mind. At least that means consolidation will

522
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 1: happen on some level. Either you're working towards being acquired

523
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:12,119
Speaker 1: or you're working towards being the acquirer, you know, because

524
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 1: if this thing is so fragmented, then there's so much

525
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 1: opportunity to be for big players to become bigger and

526
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 1: small players to become big themselves. So what are your

527
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:24,959
Speaker 1: goals when you think about especially when you go out

528
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:26,399
Speaker 1: to raise money that a lot of a lot of

529
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:28,440
Speaker 1: the questions can be what's the exit?

530
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 3: What's the out on this?

531
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 1: Are you working towards being bought or do you work

532
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:34,400
Speaker 1: towards you know what? I want to be the next

533
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 1: Proctor and Gamble.

534
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I think we're still early enough that either

535
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 2: option is viable, but I definitely want to take it

536
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:48,199
Speaker 2: to like a sizeable, like multi billion dollar stage before

537
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 2: we decide to exit. I definitely a really passionate about

538
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,439
Speaker 2: the problems we're solving here, and I really want to

539
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:57,120
Speaker 2: stick with it as long as possible.

540
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 1: Did you always see yourself as an entrepreneur or this

541
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 1: is because I know you were studying different things that

542
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 1: don't always necessarily lead towards entrepreneurship, but maybe.

543
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 3: They lead towards great careers.

544
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 1: You know, But talk to me about that journey for yourself.

545
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 2: Actually, I did not know I wanted to be a

546
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 2: entrepreneur at all. I I I think it was like

547
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,359
Speaker 2: in the back of my head, but I didn't know

548
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:24,919
Speaker 2: what the what entrepreneur meant, or how you get started

549
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:29,440
Speaker 2: or anything like that. When I was a PhD candidate, though,

550
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 2: I didn't know at that point that I was really

551
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 2: passionate about entrepreneurship, and so I saw the PhD curriculum

552
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,680
Speaker 2: as an opportunity to be able to kind of figure

553
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 2: it out as I go. I see PhD journey very

554
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 2: similar to entrepreneurship, because you're building a solution or technology

555
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 2: for particular particular problem. The real difference I see is

556
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 2: that in the PhD world, that end goal could be

557
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 2: just new knowledge. It doesn't have to be a business

558
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 2: or like finances or something like that. We're in an

559
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 2: entrepreneurship world unless you're nonprofit the real goal is to

560
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 2: be able to generate our revenue and in my eyes,

561
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 2: also change people's lives.

562
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 1: So can you offer some encouragement, words of advice, leave

563
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 1: us with something, because again, you were on a very

564
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 1: research driven, scientific, you know path for people who may

565
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: not even realize that the idea is in them, but

566
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 1: they're searching for that thing that will set them on fire.

567
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 1: What would you say to somebody the typany you know

568
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 1: from six years ago or whatever years ago that is

569
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 1: on this journey, don't realize where it's going to end up,

570
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 1: but has something that will be contributive to our community.

571
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 2: What would you say if you're on an entreprenurship journey,

572
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 2: like you know that you have this a cool idea

573
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 2: or industry that you're interested in disrupting, Like I would

574
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 2: say that to make sure that you find the solution

575
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 2: that you are passionate about, like you have a burning passion,

576
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 2: Because there will be many times that it's ups and down.

577
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 2: Like within a given day in the startup world, I

578
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 2: get the best news the worst news, and that's.

579
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 3: Everything every day within a day.

580
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 2: So it's not even like I had a bad week. No,

581
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 2: I might have had a bad hour, yeah, so the

582
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 2: realizing that it is for you. Sometimes you may discount

583
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 2: your discres like consider yourself like maybe it's not for you,

584
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 2: You're not the right person to bring this vision to life,

585
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 2: or realize that this whole imposter type syndrome. Even the

586
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 2: most successful people that you see are feeling this way.

587
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 2: The difference is they see that as like they feel

588
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 2: this and they just know it's like okay, it will

589
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 2: pass right. And how I deal with that is I'm like, Okay,

590
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 2: why am I feeling this way? I kind of talk

591
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 2: to myself like why am I feeling this way, and

592
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 2: then address the problem directly. So like I realized that

593
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 2: for me personally, I get really more I get more

594
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 2: stress when I had this problem and I have no

595
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 2: idea of how to solve it. So instead of leaving

596
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 2: it lingering, I'm like, Okay, this is my problem, Like

597
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 2: how can I solve this? How can I tackle it?

598
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 2: And create a plan to do so? And then you

599
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 2: could like like that feeling can go to the side. Right.

600
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 2: I know it sounds like I make it sound like

601
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 2: it's so simple and it's not. It's actually a lot

602
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 2: of work and a lot of practice to be able

603
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 2: to do that. But I think it's really powerful skill

604
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 2: is to be able to push past the feeling of

605
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 2: like the imposter syndrome, or like feeling like it's not

606
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 2: for you. It is for you if you're passionate about

607
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 2: it. It is for you, just you just have to find

608
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 2: a strappy way to get it done.

609
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 1: Black Tech Green Money is a production to Blavity, Afrotech

610
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: on the Black Effect Podcast Network and Night Hard Media,

611
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 1: and it's produced by Morgan Debond and me Well Lucas,

612
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 1: with additional production support by Sayah Ergon.

613
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 3: And Rose mc lucas.

614
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: The special thanking to Michael Davis, Vanessa Serrano or Maya Moldrew.

615
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 1: Learn more about My Keys and other tech disruptors an

616
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 1: innovators at afrotech dot com. Join your Black Tech Green

617
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 1: Money and share this with somebody. Go get your money,

618
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 1: peace and live