1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:06,119 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuffworks 2 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: dot com. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:17,599 Speaker 1: My name is Robert lamp and I'm Joe McCormick, and 4 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:23,080 Speaker 1: I want to tell you a story about a monster slayer. Robert, 5 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: are you game? Okay? So, once upon a time in 6 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: medieval Japan, there was a warrior named Minamoto no Ko 7 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 1: who was a daring swordsman, and he was famous everywhere 8 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: for his bravery and his resolve. And Raiko had in 9 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: his service a companion named Watanabe note Suna, who was 10 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 1: also courageous, and he was a formidable fighter in his 11 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: own right, and he wielded a bow and arrow and 12 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 1: wore a suit of armor. And one day Raiko and 13 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: Suna were traveling on the road to Kita Yama when 14 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: they saw a skull floating in the sky, flying in 15 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: and out of the clouds above. Now Rico and Sooner 16 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: were curious how such a thing could be, so they 17 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: decided let's follow the skull, and they followed the flying 18 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: skull all the way to Cagaroka, where it led them 19 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: to a crumbling old mansion from ancient times. The decaying 20 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 1: manner was surrounded by wild overgrown weeds and an old 21 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:23,040 Speaker 1: gate choked by vines. So Rico ordered Souna to wait 22 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: for him outside, and Rico entered the mansion alone. As 23 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 1: he approached the threshold, he started to become aware of 24 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: a presence. There was an old woman lurking behind the door, 25 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: and he called out, who are you? She replied, I've 26 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: been living here for a good long time. I am 27 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: two hundred and ninety years old and have served in 28 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,759 Speaker 1: their turn nine lords of this house. And then Rico 29 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 1: saw her. She was a horrible sight to behold before 30 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 1: the warrior's eyes. The old woman grasped her own eyelids 31 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 1: with a tool, and she flipped her eyelids back over 32 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: the top of her head like a hat. Then she 33 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: pushed her mouth open with a large hairpin, and her 34 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: lips became gigantic, and she took her lips and she 35 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:09,919 Speaker 1: tied them around her own neck, and her breasts began 36 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: to sag down into her lap like rags. The old 37 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: woman began to speak again. She said, spring comes and 38 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 1: autumn goes, but my sad thoughts remained the same. Years 39 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 1: begin an end, but my misery is eternal. This place 40 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 1: is a demon's den. No human dares passed through our gates. 41 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 1: My sorrowful youth has gone, but my old self sadly remains. 42 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: I lament that bush warbler's depart, and swallows on the 43 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 1: beam fly off. In her sorrow, the wretched old woman 44 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:41,519 Speaker 1: begged Rycho to kill her with his sword and put 45 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 1: her out of her misery. Rycho could see that the 46 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: old woman was out of her mind, so he left 47 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: her alone, and he instead decided to go into the 48 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 1: house to see what had happened and solve the mystery 49 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: of the flying skull and what was afflicting this woman 50 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 1: and making her think she lived in a demon's den. 51 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 1: So he went inside the house, and outside the sky 52 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: dark and fierce, and winds began to blow. But Sooner 53 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:07,639 Speaker 1: waited loyally for his master, And inside the house, Rycho 54 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 1: began to hear the sounds of footsteps echoing like the 55 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: beat of a hand drum. Then he saw a coterie 56 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,639 Speaker 1: of spirits and goblins coming into the room with him, 57 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: but the creatures didn't attack. Instead, they only danced around 58 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:23,359 Speaker 1: and then laughed at his fear before passing out through 59 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: another door. In their place, there came into the room 60 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 1: a tiny woman, no more than three ft tall, but 61 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 1: with a gigantic face more than two thirds of her 62 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 1: whole height. And she had thick, heavy eyebrows, and when 63 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: she opened her mouth, Rycho could see that her front 64 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: teeth were black. She wore a purple hat and a 65 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: red hakama with nothing underneath. Her arms were so thin 66 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: they were like strings, and her skin was as pale 67 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: as snowfall. Then that woman disappeared, and Raiko realized dawn 68 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: was nearing. Almost as soon as the strange woman had left, 69 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: another woman came into the room. This time the woman 70 00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: was graceful and calm, and so beautiful that Rycho could 71 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: barely believe his eyes. He thought that this woman must 72 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: be the true mistress of the old house, finally coming 73 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: out to welcome him, and her eyes shone as bright 74 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,479 Speaker 1: as the reflection of a bonfire and black lacquer. But 75 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: when Rico was distracted by the woman's beauty, she got 76 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:21,720 Speaker 1: the better of him. She lifted up the hymn of 77 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 1: her hakama, and from underneath it she heaved at the 78 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: swordsman some kind of material what looks like balls of 79 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: white cloud, And the balls of white cloud blinded him. 80 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 1: They got in his eyes, and in a rage, Raiko 81 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: drew his sword and he slashed at the woman, but 82 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: she evaporated into thin air. He slashed so mightily that 83 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:44,840 Speaker 1: his sword passed through the floorboards and cut a foundation stone, 84 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 1: and the tip of the blade broke off where the 85 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 1: woman had been. There was now nothing but a pool 86 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: of white blood on the floor, with a trail of 87 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: more white blood leading off somewhere else. Raiko and soon 88 00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: had joined together again, and they followed the trail of 89 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 1: white blood out of the house and up into the mountains, 90 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: and finally to the mouth of a dark cave, out 91 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: of which white blood was flowing like a river. As 92 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 1: soon as suggestion, the two of them made an effigy 93 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: of ratan and vines in the shape of a man, 94 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: and they carried it before them as they entered the cave. 95 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: Inside the cave, they found a gigantic monster in the 96 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 1: form of a mountain spider, but nearly two hundred feet tall, 97 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 1: and it wore a brocade on its head. Its eyes 98 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: were as bright as the sun and the moon. The 99 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 1: giant monster bellowed, what has happened to my body? It 100 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 1: is so painful. Then the monster hurled something at them 101 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: in the dark, and the projectile hit the effigy that 102 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: they carried in front of them and knocked it down. 103 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: Rico and Sona examined the object that the monster had 104 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 1: shot at them, and they discovered that it was the 105 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:53,159 Speaker 1: broken tip of Rico's sword. Together, they took hold of 106 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 1: the creature and they began to drag it out of 107 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:58,039 Speaker 1: the cave. And the monster put up a good fight, 108 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: and it was a terrible monster. Indeed, it's strong enough 109 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 1: to move boulders with its legs. So Rico said a 110 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,600 Speaker 1: prayer to the sun goddess Amaterasu and asked her for 111 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,559 Speaker 1: aid with the fight. Rico and Sooner pulled and pulled, 112 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 1: and eventually the monster collapsed and fell belly up on 113 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: the earth without hesitation. Rico drew his sword and chopped 114 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: off the monster's head. Sooner ran to slash open the 115 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: monster's belly, but found when he got there that it 116 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,039 Speaker 1: had already been opened by a deep gash. This was 117 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: the wound Richo had given it inside the house when 118 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 1: it was in the form of the woman, and this 119 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: proved that the giant spider truly was the beautiful woman 120 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: that he had seen from the gash in the giant 121 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:42,720 Speaker 1: spider's belly, one thousand, nine hundred and ninety heads tumbled 122 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 1: out onto the ground. The warriors cut open another part 123 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: of the spider's body, and many smaller spider monsters swarmed out, 124 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: each about the size of a seven or eight year 125 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 1: old child. When the warriors looked further in the stomach 126 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: of the spider beast, they found twenty human skulls. Knowing 127 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 1: it had to be done, Riicho and soon a dug 128 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 1: a grave in the ground and buried the twenty skulls, 129 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: and then burned the giant spider's din. When the Emperor 130 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: heard what Richo and Suna had done in eliminating this 131 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 1: heinous monster that had been plaguing the country, he gave 132 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 1: them promotions and appointed them governors of their own provinces. 133 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: And this is the story of Minamoto no Riiko and 134 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: the Giant Spider. That is a fabulous story. I love it, 135 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: just like the the the layers of the adventure and 136 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 1: then just the the revelations about the horrific monstrosity that 137 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: they're faced with. I like how it's weird and rambling, 138 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 1: like it takes a long time to get to the 139 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: final form of the monster. You don't really know where 140 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: it's gonna go. It takes you to a haunted house first. 141 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: Uh something about that feels both unusual and intuitive. Um 142 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 1: So that they start off seeing the skull, and I 143 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: have to assume that I guess the skull was some 144 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 1: form of the monster. I don't know. But but also 145 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 1: I like how in a lot of the monster slayer 146 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 1: stories you come across, there's a more specific reason that 147 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: the that the hero must undergo the quest to slay 148 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: the monster. They have to rescue a princess or something. Here, 149 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 1: this time, they're just detectives investigating something weird that they saw, 150 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 1: and it eventually leads them into the monster's cave to 151 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: kill it, which also ultimately kind of makes you feel 152 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: bad for the monster, Like it didn't even kidnap anybody 153 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: they knew, They just like made their way to it. Yeah, 154 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: it was. It seems to be entirely recreational on their part. Yeah. Well, 155 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess it kind of makes them like 156 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: some kind of roving police force almost in a way. 157 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: Or maybe they just needed the experience points. I mean, 158 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: that's that's true. Uh So, this giant spider story comes 159 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: from an early fourteenth century Japanese picture scroll called the 160 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: Sushi Gumo Soshi, and the version of the story that 161 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: I read is as translated by the scholar Dr. Nariko 162 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 1: t writer who we've referenced on the show before. I 163 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 1: think in our episode about cuteness and strocity. That make sense? 164 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, so that so my version of the story 165 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: I just told was based on her translation of this 166 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,959 Speaker 1: fourteenth century scroll. And this is not the only legend 167 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,680 Speaker 1: about giant spiders in early modern Japan. The sushi gumo 168 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 1: or earth spider, was a common monster found in no 169 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 1: plays and in supernatural narratives in the following centuries. But 170 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: there are also other spider monsters like the ushi one, 171 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 1: which was sometimes described as like a giant spider with 172 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 1: the head of a bull, and it attacks fishermen at 173 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 1: the water's edge. And then there's also the juro gumo, 174 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 1: which is the literally the prostitute spider, and it's another 175 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:40,679 Speaker 1: sort of ghost like creature that appears in the literature 176 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: of the Ato period, shape shifting like the sushi gumo 177 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: between the forms of a beautiful woman and a voracious arachneid, 178 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:52,559 Speaker 1: luring men to their deaths. So a classic trope of 179 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 1: of monsters appearing as is desirable humans or even non 180 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:00,040 Speaker 1: human entities, of course, and you see that too in 181 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 1: in the Sushi Gumo in the story where the spider 182 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: monster appears as this beautiful woman in the house and 183 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 1: distracts the swordsman with her beauty just long enough to 184 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: throw clouds of white matter in his eyes. Who knows 185 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 1: what that's supposed to be. I don't know if I 186 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:16,839 Speaker 1: guess it's the silk, right, Oh? Maybe? Yeah, I don't 187 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:18,680 Speaker 1: know it's supposed to be said. I mean, it's it's 188 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: described as literally like clouds, so it's hard to know 189 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:23,319 Speaker 1: exactly what it's referring to. It seems to be some 190 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: kind of magical substance. But yeah, So we're doing something 191 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 1: a little bit different today than we usually do in 192 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: our October episodes where we love to focus on monsters. 193 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: Today we wanted to take a look at the immortal 194 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: enemy of our beloved monsters, the monster Slayer. Yeah, it's 195 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 1: it's often an essential part of the story and sometimes 196 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:49,080 Speaker 1: the thing sometimes they define like define each other, right, 197 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:51,959 Speaker 1: Sometimes the monster is really the thing that defines the hero. 198 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 1: Other times there's not a lot to say about the 199 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: monster itself, except that a certain hero of note gave 200 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: it a good slaying at some point. Yeah, and it's 201 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: almost as deep and as old as the monster mythology itself. Right. 202 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 1: The oldest monster stories you can find when you go 203 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 1: back in time very often are monster slayers stories. There's 204 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: a monster, and there's a hero who must venture out, 205 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: often alone or with a faithful companion, uh, to face 206 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:23,080 Speaker 1: the monster and destroy it. And the monster slayer archetype 207 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 1: is actually classed as a particular type of like you know, 208 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 1: myth archetype, the the princess and the dragon type story 209 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: which appears all over the world in different cultures. Uh. 210 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 1: And and you know, and that that's the very broad take. 211 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 1: You know, that there's like a princess who's being held 212 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 1: captive or being threatened by some kind of monster, and 213 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 1: a hero must venture out with courage and face the monster, 214 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 1: though of course clearly not all the monsters in these 215 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: types of stories are dragons. And then there's just the 216 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 1: bigger myth architecture of whether or not there's a princess, 217 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: there's very often a slayer who must face down the beast. 218 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:01,200 Speaker 1: And and we're gonna, we're gonna explore some different versions 219 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: of this where the beast has you know, varying degrees 220 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: of symbolic uh power. I guess you would say uh 221 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: in other times less so uh. Again, it often comes 222 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: down to like why is why? Why is this hero 223 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: killing this monster? That's often the question, like what is 224 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 1: gained by this story? Uh? And in doing that you 225 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 1: have to look at what the monster represents, what the 226 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: hero represents. And then there are certain complexities that seemed 227 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 1: to come along just as storytelling evolves. Yeah. So, another 228 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 1: one I wanted to focus on, to go even much 229 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 1: deeper into history is the story of mar Duke the 230 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 1: Monster Slayer. Now mar Duke, of course, is an ancient 231 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:44,719 Speaker 1: Near Eastern god uh, and I want to I want 232 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: to focus on the story of mar Duke the Monster 233 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 1: Slayer as told from the Enema a Leash the ancient 234 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 1: Babylonian Epic of Creation, which of course is a great 235 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: story we've explored on the podcast before and I'm excited 236 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,959 Speaker 1: to explore it again. So the general story, Robert, you're 237 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: remember the outlines. You've got the primordial creators in the 238 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:06,559 Speaker 1: Babylonian epic, right, You've got Tiamat and Opsu, which represents 239 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: saltwater and freshwater respectively. They're these gods and also kind 240 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 1: of monster creatures. They're sort of dragon gods that are 241 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: also saltwater and freshwater, and they and they embody a 242 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:23,439 Speaker 1: lot of natural might, a lot of are also potentially 243 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: chaotic might, right, yeah, yeah. They represent the sort of 244 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 1: chaos before the creation of the order of the world today. 245 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 1: And what they do is uh the sweetwater in the saltwater. 246 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:38,199 Speaker 1: Together they create a race of gods, but end up 247 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 1: finding those gods they've created unpleasant and loud, and eventually, 248 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 1: um the gods turn on their creators and they slay Opsu, 249 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 1: the sort of freshwater deity, and Tiamat, the saltwater deity. 250 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: She is enraged, and she tries to make revenge on 251 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 1: the gods for slaying Opsu, attacking them in the form 252 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: of a giant sea monster or a salt water dragon 253 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: and making a team of evil monsters to do wickedness 254 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: on her behalf and the gods. Of course, because of 255 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: her power, they're too afraid to go out and fight 256 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 1: Tiamat themselves, but eventually they convinced the storm god mar 257 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 1: Duke to go out himself and fight her on their behalf. 258 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: So in exchange for risking his life in this fight, 259 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 1: mar Duke's what's in it for Marduke? Right? Mar Duke 260 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 1: demands that the gods make him their king, so he 261 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 1: that that's the deal. Right, I'll go out and slay 262 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: the monster if you guys make me the boss, which 263 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 1: sounds like a good deal. You need a king, you 264 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 1: want one that's going to actually slay your monsters, right. 265 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: So mar Duke is armed with special weapons imbued with 266 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: some kind of storm power, a bow and arrow, a 267 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: mace and net, and then there are these powers of 268 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 1: the winds that he commands, including the winds of the 269 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 1: cardinal directions north, southeast and west, but also these other 270 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 1: kinds of wind magic, Like there's one wind weapon he 271 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: has just called the Evil Wind. And I guess we're 272 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: supposed to imagine just some sort of like cosmic fart 273 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 1: here um. The fart jokes do kind of present themselves 274 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: at this point. So from here, I think I will 275 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 1: just read some lines from the enemy Alish has the 276 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 1: as translated by E. A. Spicer, Robert, would you like 277 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 1: to read with me? Of course? Then the Lord raised 278 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: up the floodstorm, his mighty weapon he mounted the storm chariot, 279 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: irresistible and terrifying. He harnessed and yoked it to a 280 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 1: team of four, the Killer, the Relentless, the trampler, the 281 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 1: swift sharp, where their poison bearing teeth they were versed 282 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 1: in ravage, skilled, and destruction. On his right he posted 283 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 1: the smider, fearsome in battle. On the left, the combat 284 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 1: which repels all the zealous. His cloak was an armor 285 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 1: of terror. His head was turbaned with his fearsome halo. 286 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: The lord went forth and followed his course. He set 287 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 1: his face towards the raging Tiamat. He held a spell 288 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: between his lips. A plant to put out poison was 289 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 1: grasp in his hand. And then we'll skip a bit. 290 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: Marduk approaches Uh and Tiamat's consort, Kingu. This monster Kingu 291 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 1: and her allied gods and monsters become fearful, and then 292 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: Tiamat taunts Marduk, and then Marduke gives a speech rebuking 293 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 1: Tiamat and challenging her to single combat. And then we'll 294 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 1: pick up with the lines again. When Tiamat heard this, 295 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 1: she was like one possessed. She took leave of her 296 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: senses in fury, Tiamat cried aloud to the roots of 297 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 1: her legs, shook both together. She recites a charm, keeps 298 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 1: casting her spell while the gods of battle sharpen their weapons. 299 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 1: Tiamat and Marduk, wisest of God's, then joined battle. They 300 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: strove in single combat. Locked in conflict, the lord spread 301 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: out his net to unfold her. He let loose in 302 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 1: her face the evil wind, which followed behind. When Tiamat 303 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:00,120 Speaker 1: opened her mouth to consume him, he drove in the 304 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 1: evil wind, and she could not close her lips. As 305 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: the fierce winds encumbered her belly. Her body was distended 306 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,160 Speaker 1: and her mouth was wide open. He released an arrow. 307 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: It tore her belly, It cut through her inside, splitting 308 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 1: her heart. Having subdued her, he blotted out her life. 309 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: He threw down her carcass and stood upon it. Oh, 310 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: you gotta stand on it. That's that's just uh, that's 311 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:28,360 Speaker 1: absolutely necessary. Well, we've hit on this before, like the 312 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:31,120 Speaker 1: they see that trope in both the Western and Eastern 313 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: art with a demon or devil or monster trampled beneath 314 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: the feet or sat upon as if it were thrown. 315 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 1: You know, it's still a thing when you see. I mean, 316 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 1: I almost hate to bring this up because it makes 317 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: me mad whenever I see it. But like those like 318 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: Safari hunting pictures where people like shoot a lion or 319 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: something like that, and then they're like standing there with 320 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: their foot on it. Yes, I am not crazy about 321 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 1: that either, but they put their foot on it. This 322 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:59,440 Speaker 1: is still a thing. It's like you and now Earth. 323 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 1: It's it's like it's instinctive. Almost. I put my foot 324 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 1: on this thing to show I have beaten it. And then, 325 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: of course, the next thing in this story, because it 326 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:09,679 Speaker 1: becomes of course, the epic of creation is that mar 327 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: Duke makes the heavens and the earth out of Tiamat's 328 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 1: dead body. Ah. This is another thing we see time 329 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: and time again in different uh myths, the idea of 330 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: some primordial being being overcome and then their body being 331 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:28,399 Speaker 1: repurposed in creation. Yeah, it is. It's an interesting repeating theme. 332 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 1: And I don't know, I wonder what that says, Like, 333 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: why do we have the the inherent suspicion that the 334 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:36,680 Speaker 1: ground on which we walk was once a living being? 335 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:38,919 Speaker 1: We should come back and doing a whole episode on 336 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 1: dead gods at some point. Oh, absolutely, now here's another 337 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 1: thing I was thinking about, which is that in most 338 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:49,200 Speaker 1: of these pre modern stories, the monster slayers always a dude. 339 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 1: It's always male. Not always. I want to get to 340 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:53,719 Speaker 1: a counter example that I was able to find. And 341 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: it's also not uncommon for the monster that is getting 342 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:00,080 Speaker 1: slain to be female. Think about the Sushi Gumo, the 343 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,639 Speaker 1: woman in the house and slayed by the swordsman Tiamat, 344 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 1: the female monster slayed by marduk Uh and the Medusa. Yeah, 345 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 1: we can. We can discuss more about what is meant 346 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 1: by that in a bit. But I was on the 347 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 1: hunt for some good pre modern, ancient female monster slayers, 348 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 1: and I think I found at least one good example 349 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:22,920 Speaker 1: that that I turned up sort of a pre Buffy 350 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: Buffy if you will, right, Well, I mean, yeah, that's 351 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 1: one of the many great things about Buffy. Of course, Yeah, 352 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:31,400 Speaker 1: she's she's one of the greatest vampire slayers monster slayers 353 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 1: of all time. But then she is she has a 354 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,920 Speaker 1: female which you, as you pointed out, you don't see 355 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 1: a lot of in the ancient myth cycles. It's a 356 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: nice change up on the gender dynamics of that. Yeah, 357 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 1: but so another ancient Mesopotamian monster slayer would be in 358 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:50,119 Speaker 1: an A the glorious and ann a crusher of heads. 359 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 1: In Anna was a Sumerian goddess also known as the 360 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 1: Accadian ishtar got us of many things. We we've mentioned 361 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:58,159 Speaker 1: her on the podcast before, but you know, got us 362 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 1: of the storehouse and the products of ag culture, but 363 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: also it seems of fertility, sex, war and slaughter. And 364 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: in Anna is maybe my favorite ancient god or goddess 365 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,880 Speaker 1: due to those awesome hymns in her praise written by 366 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:15,679 Speaker 1: the priestess in Headuana, perhaps the earliest known piece of 367 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: writing with a named author. In Headuana was a twenty 368 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:22,919 Speaker 1: third century b c. Mesopotamian high priestess and poet, the 369 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 1: daughter of the Acadian king Sargon the Great. And so 370 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: she wrote these hymns to Anna that are just spectacular 371 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: to read. Um, But okay, what kind of monster slang 372 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 1: does Anna do? Well? The story here is more obscure, 373 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 1: more complex, but it's also interesting. It comes down to 374 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: this Sumerian concept called kor And my source here is 375 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 1: a couple of pieces by the twentieth century ancient Neary 376 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: scholar Samuel in Kramer. So everything I'm saying here comes 377 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:54,160 Speaker 1: from Kramer. Kramer writes that kore can be a really 378 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: confusing word in ancient Sumerian literature because of its many 379 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 1: different meanings. First of all, it seems to have a 380 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: primary literal meaning of mountain, right, so got coor the mountain. 381 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:09,439 Speaker 1: It's also used to mean foreign land, presumably because the 382 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,919 Speaker 1: peoples of the mountains bordering Summer were a constant threat. 383 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: But then core also appears to just mean land in general, 384 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 1: like territory. Uh. But also it has cosmic and religious connotations. 385 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 1: So the word core is also used to signify the 386 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:28,719 Speaker 1: Great Below or the nether world, to quote, the empty 387 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:33,159 Speaker 1: space between the Earth's crust and the primeval sea, and 388 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: Kramer writes quote Moreover, it is not improbable that the 389 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 1: monstrous creature that lived at the bottom of the Great 390 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: Below immediately over the primeval waters is also called cour if. 391 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 1: So this monster Core would correspond to a certain extent 392 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:51,439 Speaker 1: to the Babylonian Tiamat. So this is another version of 393 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 1: the Tiamat sea monster legend. And Kramer writes about kind 394 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 1: of in the tradition of Marduk, that there are multiple 395 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:00,680 Speaker 1: ancient stories and fragments of stories we have in which 396 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 1: monster slayers attack the monster Core. In one the hero 397 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 1: is the god Inky, in another one it's Ninerta. But 398 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 1: in a third it appears to be in Anna. And 399 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:14,400 Speaker 1: so there's this passage where Anna threatens the Core who 400 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 1: does who does not recognize her might? And in Anna says, 401 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 1: the long spear, I shall hurl upon it the throwing stick, 402 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 1: the weapon I shall direct against it, at its neighboring forests. 403 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 1: I shall strike up fire at its And then there's 404 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:31,400 Speaker 1: an illusion. I shall set up the bronze axe all 405 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 1: its waters, like Jibil, the fire god, the purifier, I 406 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 1: shall dry up, like the mountain Rata, which no hand 407 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: can reach. I shall And then there's another illusion, like 408 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: a city cursed by Anu. It will not be restored, 409 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,399 Speaker 1: like a city on which in Lill frowns, it shall 410 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 1: not rise up. And then the god Anu warns her 411 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,360 Speaker 1: how terrible the Core monster is quote against the standing 412 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: place of the gods. It has directed its terror in 413 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 1: the sitting place of the ann Hockey. It has led 414 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: forth fearfulness. It's fearful terror. It has hurled upon Sumer. 415 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: It's fearful glory. It has directed against all the lands. 416 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 1: But of course, mighty and Anna is not discouraged, and 417 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 1: she quote opens the house of battle against the Core 418 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 1: and slays the monster and stands upon it and speaks 419 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 1: to him. To her own magnificence. These ancient goddesses were 420 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 1: serious business. Yeah, that's awesome. Uh, and I love But 421 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,879 Speaker 1: she stands on it too. She's still doing putting her 422 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,680 Speaker 1: foot on it. It's got that's got to happen. Um. 423 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: And So I think the issue that Kramer highlights with 424 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 1: the different meanings of the word cour here is very illuminating. 425 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,120 Speaker 1: According to Kramer, again, it literally means mountain, also means 426 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 1: enemy territory, also just means lander. Territory in general, also 427 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: means the nether world or the underworld. Also the name 428 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: of the monster that inhabits the nether world and brings 429 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: destruction against Summer. So when you hear the story of 430 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 1: in Hona slaying the cour if you're hearing it in 431 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: the original language, you would be directly receiving all of 432 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:05,400 Speaker 1: these connotations. She conquers the mountain, she conquers the enemy lands, 433 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,679 Speaker 1: she conquers the land itself, she conquers the realm of 434 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,640 Speaker 1: the dead and maybe death. Um. It's interesting the way 435 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 1: that you know, we go later into monster slang legends, 436 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: looking for the allegories and saying like, you know, what, 437 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 1: does what does this monster represent? It usually does seem 438 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 1: to represent something more than just a beast, either intentionally 439 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,360 Speaker 1: or accidentally. Yeah, but but here it's like you've got 440 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 1: all these connotations of the same word, meaning that it's 441 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: almost just completely baked into the story at the face 442 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:37,359 Speaker 1: value level. That is fascinating. It's like the idea of 443 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: the monster has yet to like congeal, you know, it's 444 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: still more free flowing well the monster. I mean, you 445 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 1: usually think of ancient stories as being more concrete and 446 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 1: modern storytelling is being more abstract. But I wonder, I 447 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 1: don't know if that's always the case. Yeah, this really 448 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 1: flies in the face of those some of the ideas 449 00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: we've discussed where like, oh, the monster is inspired by 450 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: a hustle, you know, or or something to that effect, 451 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: Like like this is more the it's ideas, uh that 452 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 1: are you know, congealing into a symbolic form. Yeah, I 453 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,640 Speaker 1: would say this might be inspired less by a fossil 454 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 1: and more by a family of concepts, all of which 455 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,399 Speaker 1: cause discomfort and fear, And the fear is key. Fear 456 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 1: will definitely come into play later in this episode. All Right, well, 457 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:27,440 Speaker 1: I think we should take a quick break and when 458 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: we come back we will explore more monsters and monster 459 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:37,640 Speaker 1: slayers than all right, we're back. So another famous monster 460 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: and slayer combo that this is a combo that we 461 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: could easily do the whole podcast on. You could do 462 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,399 Speaker 1: multiple podcasts on, because a lot of people have written 463 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: about this duo. I'm talking about Beowulf and Grendel, the 464 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 1: great romance of Anglo Saxon literature. Yes, I don't probably 465 00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 1: don't have to remind everyone about this too much. It's 466 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: a a violent tale in which a brutish automaton of 467 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,199 Speaker 1: a human disrupts an ancient and terminally endangered creature in 468 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 1: the process of its predation. Predation I should remind everyone 469 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,879 Speaker 1: that targets only the loudest, fittest, and warlike human males 470 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 1: for the most part. Uh. The brute ends up tearing 471 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 1: the arm off of the creature and then follows it 472 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,639 Speaker 1: home as it retreats to its layer and then dies. 473 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,359 Speaker 1: Uh and uh, our hero follows. The blood follows the 474 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 1: you know, the howls of pain, dives down to the 475 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: deep layer and there kills the creature's mother as well. 476 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 1: It's uh, I'm being a little cheeky in my description, 477 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,400 Speaker 1: because it is you're just accurately describing the story. Beowulf 478 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,439 Speaker 1: is a jerk, He's well, he is, he's kind of 479 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 1: the mind kind of you know, partial. I guess to 480 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 1: John Gardner's Grendel, who plays up these themes a lot 481 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 1: by humanizing the monster well at the same time retaining 482 00:26:55,920 --> 00:27:00,879 Speaker 1: its monstrous qualities, but portraying Beowulf is just is this 483 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:05,360 Speaker 1: holy wrath of a character? Yeah, I I guess it's 484 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,200 Speaker 1: a it's a modern thing for us to sympathize more 485 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 1: with the monster. And why why is it like that now? 486 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: Why do we sympathize with the monster more these days? 487 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 1: I'm not sure? I mean, well, part of it is that, yeah, 488 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,119 Speaker 1: tales like this kind of speak to all of us 489 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 1: and continue to resonate today, but it's it's still a 490 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,640 Speaker 1: tale that was speaking to a probably more specific audience 491 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:28,159 Speaker 1: as opposed to you know, humanity in general. Maybe the 492 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 1: reason that we're more inclined to sympathize with Grendel and 493 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 1: sympathize with monsters these days is that we more people 494 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 1: now are sort of conditioned to the idea that history 495 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:43,439 Speaker 1: as written might not always be fair. You know that 496 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 1: it maybe is written to benefit the people who are 497 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 1: writing it and make them look good. Unless you always 498 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 1: kind of wonder when you get a heroic tale of 499 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,680 Speaker 1: a slaying, is it actually a tale of an unfair 500 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,679 Speaker 1: and undeserved slaughter? Yeah? Or sometimes maybe a monster just 501 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:03,359 Speaker 1: doesn't need slay anymore. Um. I was looking around, and again, 502 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:08,440 Speaker 1: there's a tremendous amount of literature about Grindel and Beowolf. 503 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 1: Tons of people have written about J. R. Tolkien wrote 504 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: about Beowulf and Grendel. I was looking at one particular author, 505 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: though English professor and also a medieval dragon expert, Joyce 506 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 1: Tally uh lion urns I believe it is her last name, 507 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 1: and she points out that there's a lot to be 508 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 1: said in interpreting Grendel and his mother Uh And some 509 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 1: of the earlier interpretations were certainly more seeing them as 510 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 1: personifications of natural threats, very much in keeping with what 511 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 1: we discussed in the mar Duke's story. Already there what's 512 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 1: outside the firelight? They are the wilderness and bodies. Yeah, 513 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: they're the wilderness, they're the dark. They are perhaps more 514 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 1: specifically the North Sea of the Bog, the marsh long 515 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 1: winter nights, I mean, ultimately a cousin of Jenny Green 516 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 1: Teeth in many respects, right. Uh. And then the monster 517 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: dies and Spring emerges again, while Beowulf's eventual death battling 518 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: a Aagon is a tale of Autumn's descent. A lot 519 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 1: of people don't uh. I mean, I guess this is 520 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 1: referenced in the most recent film adaptation. But a lot 521 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 1: of people forget about the dragon. Yeah, this is the 522 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: second half of the story. But Beowolf grows old, and 523 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:16,719 Speaker 1: in the second half of the story, a young a 524 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 1: young Wiggloff has to take up the mantle of the 525 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: monster Slayer because Beowolf can't hack it anymore. Literally, can't 526 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 1: hack into those monster hides like you used to, can't 527 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: tear those arms off like you used to. Um, you know. Uh. 528 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 1: I can't help but be reminded and thinking about like 529 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,719 Speaker 1: these older monster stories, monster and slayer tales, and then 530 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 1: trying to think about their their analogs and uh in 531 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 1: modern popular culture. I can't help but think of a 532 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 1: little story in which a band of professional warmakers and 533 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 1: Central America are targeted by an alien hunter that that 534 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 1: only praise on the fittest and warlike of its target species. 535 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: But only through through trick career does the human A 536 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,239 Speaker 1: man named Dutch prevail. Oh he's Dutch. Oh yeah, one 537 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,479 Speaker 1: of his name is Dutch. I don't know. Is he's 538 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 1: supposed to be Dutch? I thought, maybe who? I don't 539 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 1: I don't know, but that sort of solidifies the Baowolf connection. 540 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 1: Oh well, interesting, But anyway, Dutch ends up probably dying 541 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: from radiation exposure, I think, since the monster self detonation. 542 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: But I of course talking about the film Predator, man, 543 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 1: you have taken me to a sacred and surprising place today. 544 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: I never expected to connect Predator and Beowulf, but but 545 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: I see it. I mean there, I think there are 546 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 1: certain connections you can make. But at the same time, 547 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 1: the contrast is very interesting because Grendel is fearsome but 548 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: is ultimately easily overcome by the hero. Right. Predator is 549 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 1: fearsome and basically wins. I mean, he slays everybody except Dutch, 550 00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 1: and Dutch is really only able to barely achieve victor 551 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 1: in the end. He tricks him trickery. Trickery, yeah, which 552 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: is which is also something you see a lot of times, 553 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 1: and generally speaking, and we're talking about like the masculinity 554 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 1: of the hero, that it's very hard to find examples, 555 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 1: especially in the older stories where the hero is something 556 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 1: other than than first of all male, but also the warrior, 557 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 1: the soldier, you know, and perhaps the soldier ends up 558 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 1: using trickery or enchanted items, and both of those may 559 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 1: be actually given to him by the gods or in 560 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: some cases a gods, But in any effect, I feel 561 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: like they tend to have tended to have an easier 562 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 1: time of it, whereas nowadays, really I'm gonna I'm personally 563 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 1: going to be disappointed if the hero uh really takes 564 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 1: out the monster too soon. I mean, you want to 565 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 1: see the struggle, right, well, right, I mean maybe now 566 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 1: people are more likely to want to see different values 567 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: like uh, maybe now you put more emphasis on, say 568 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 1: the courage and cleverness of a hero than on just 569 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 1: like they're absolutely unbeatable strength, or certainly maybe just the 570 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: things that the monsters represent for us now are less severe, 571 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 1: like maybe it's like if Grendel is representing just the 572 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 1: the harsh realities behind the campfire, maybe you want to 573 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: hear you need a hero that just tears into it 574 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 1: like a nightmare. You know, you don't want to. You 575 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 1: don't want a weak hero that's gonna, you know, take 576 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 1: a beating for forty five minutes before building a proper 577 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 1: bow and arrow out of twigs. Well, I say, I 578 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 1: certainly appreciate vulnerable heroes. I mean, I find stories where 579 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,520 Speaker 1: the hero is too powerful and too good and too strong, 580 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 1: very boring, and then you run the risk of the 581 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 1: monster being more relatable. Yeah, well you y'all out there 582 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 1: no our monster sympathies, so we can't pretend to hide that. 583 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 1: So of course I'm talking about slayers. We can't help 584 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 1: but talk about dragon slayers. And there's one particular dragon 585 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 1: slayer that it's probably, if not the definitely one of 586 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 1: the most famous dragon slayers in Western traditions, of course, 587 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,720 Speaker 1: and this is St. George, Yes, the the subject of 588 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 1: many a painting and engraving, often failing to make the 589 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 1: dragon fearsome. Yeah, the dragon, the kill, the slaying of 590 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 1: the dragon, I I find, and some of these paintings 591 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 1: it often feels more like the execution of a pet 592 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 1: salamander or something, you know, like there's a dog like 593 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 1: quality to this small creature. That is crushed under the 594 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 1: heel of a of a giant horse and a top 595 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: and there's a mounted night atop just you know, skewering 596 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 1: it with a sword or a spear. Yeah, there's one 597 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,960 Speaker 1: image I attached here or St George's attacking It is snarling, 598 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 1: but it does look like a dog with wings. If 599 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 1: you're not familiar, maybe I should go ahead and tell 600 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 1: the story of St. George. You ready for that? Okay, 601 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 1: so this comes. So now here's one thing actually about 602 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 1: the legend of St. George as a Christian saint long 603 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 1: predates any written version of this story of the dragon slaying. 604 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 1: We have, uh the as far as I know, the 605 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 1: earliest written version of the dragon slaying comes from the 606 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:10,120 Speaker 1: Golden Legend or Lives of the Saints, compiled by Jacobus Devourogene, 607 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 1: Archbishop of Genoa, in twelve seventy five, and the first 608 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 1: edition in English was published in fourteen seventy, translated by 609 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:22,320 Speaker 1: William Caxton. But here's the story. Okay, So you got St. George, 610 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,720 Speaker 1: and St George's a wandering knight. He's a he's a soldier, 611 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,440 Speaker 1: and he's a knight. He's born in a Cappadocia, which 612 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:30,520 Speaker 1: is a region of Turkey, which Robert, have you ever 613 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 1: seen the fairy chimneys of Cappadocia, I believe so yes, 614 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,359 Speaker 1: they're beautiful looking. I mean it looks you just look 615 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:40,759 Speaker 1: up the landscape of this place and you can imagine 616 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,719 Speaker 1: it's the kind of place a magical hero would come from. 617 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 1: So he comes from Cappadocia, and as a traveling night, 618 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:52,240 Speaker 1: one day he wandered into the vicinity of a city 619 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,880 Speaker 1: called Silene, which was in the province of Libya. Now 620 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 1: by the city of Silene was a great pond where 621 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 1: there was a dragon that and venomed all the country, 622 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,800 Speaker 1: and it would attack the city mercilessly, breathing venom that 623 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,320 Speaker 1: sickened and killed the people. And the citizens of Silene 624 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 1: had tried to slay the dragon, but so terrible was 625 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: the beast, and so poisonous was its breath that the 626 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 1: fighters all ran away before they could fight it. So 627 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 1: all that was left to do was to try to 628 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:23,759 Speaker 1: bribe the dragon to leave them alone. At first, they 629 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,720 Speaker 1: would feed it too sheep every day, but eventually this failed, 630 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 1: so they started to feed the dragon a man into 631 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 1: sheep each day, and Eventually they decided that they had 632 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:36,000 Speaker 1: to offer their children one at a time to keep 633 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 1: the dragon at bay. So the king made an ordinance 634 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:41,520 Speaker 1: that each day there would be a lottery of the 635 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,880 Speaker 1: children in the town, and whichever child the lot fell to, 636 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,840 Speaker 1: whether rich or poor, would be offered up to the dragon. 637 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 1: But then one day the lot fell to the princess, 638 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 1: to the king's own daughter, and he begged the people, saying, quote, 639 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,400 Speaker 1: for the love of the gods, take gold and silver 640 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:00,960 Speaker 1: and all that I have, but let me have my daughter. 641 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,759 Speaker 1: And the people answered, how sir, ye have made and 642 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,839 Speaker 1: ordained the law, and our children be now dead, and 643 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 1: ye would do the contrary. Your daughter shall be given, 644 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 1: or else we shall burn you and your house. There 645 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 1: was a reasonable response to this policy. Yeah yeah, I 646 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 1: mean he can, he can set the policy, but then 647 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,799 Speaker 1: doesn't want it to apply to him. Uh so, Yeah, 648 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 1: So then the king was very sad. He wept and 649 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 1: begged for eight days respite. The people granted that to him, 650 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:32,320 Speaker 1: but in those eight days the dragon envenomed the city terribly. 651 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: So when the time was up, the king dressed his 652 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,480 Speaker 1: daughter up as a bride, and he kissed her, and 653 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 1: he gave her a benediction and then led her out 654 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,480 Speaker 1: to the dragon's lair at the pond. So the princess 655 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:45,879 Speaker 1: is alone at the pond, dressed in a bridal gown, 656 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,560 Speaker 1: waiting to be eaten by the dragon. But then St. 657 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,399 Speaker 1: George happens to pass by, and he asked her what 658 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:54,759 Speaker 1: she's doing out there by herself in the wilderness, and 659 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,759 Speaker 1: she says, go ye your way, fair young man, that 660 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 1: ye perish not also, and he applies by, asking why 661 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,920 Speaker 1: she's crying, and eventually she tells him the truth that 662 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:07,879 Speaker 1: she had been delivered as a tribute to the dragon. Uh. 663 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 1: And then, to quote from the this version of the 664 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:14,400 Speaker 1: Golden Lives, Uh then said St. George, fair daughter, doubt 665 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 1: ye no thing hereof for I shall help thee in 666 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 1: the name of Ya Zu Christ. She said, for God's sake, 667 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,520 Speaker 1: good night, go your way and abide not with me, 668 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,720 Speaker 1: for ye may not deliver me. So she's doubting his power, 669 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 1: but he's got to display it because he's already sworn 670 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:31,279 Speaker 1: in the name of ye Zu Crease to that he 671 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 1: can do it. So as they're speaking, the dragon suddenly 672 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,719 Speaker 1: appears and it begins to charge at them. And then 673 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,400 Speaker 1: so St. George draws his sword and he makes the 674 00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,800 Speaker 1: sign of the cross. And then he quote rode heartily 675 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 1: against the dragon, which came toward him and smote him 676 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,359 Speaker 1: with his spear and hurt him sore and threw him 677 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:53,640 Speaker 1: to the ground. So the dragon is mortally injured. And 678 00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:57,400 Speaker 1: then George asks the princess to remove her girdle and 679 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:01,040 Speaker 1: tie it around the neck of the dragon. Quote. When 680 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:03,400 Speaker 1: she had done so, the dragon followed her as it 681 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:07,200 Speaker 1: had been a meek beast, and debonair. Then she led 682 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 1: him into the city, and the people fled by mountains 683 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,400 Speaker 1: and valleys and said, alas alas, we shall all be dead. 684 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,799 Speaker 1: Then St. George said to them, nay, ye doubt no 685 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 1: thing without more, believe ye in God, YESU Christ, and 686 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,560 Speaker 1: do ye to be baptized, and I shall slay the dragon. 687 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,920 Speaker 1: So the king then and all his people got baptized 688 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:31,600 Speaker 1: as Christians. And quote St. George slew the dragon and 689 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,319 Speaker 1: smote off his head and commanded that he should be 690 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:37,279 Speaker 1: thrown in the fields. And they took four carts with 691 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,279 Speaker 1: oxen that drew him out of the city. And as 692 00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 1: a result of this, there's a whole bunch of people 693 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:44,880 Speaker 1: get baptized become Christians, and then there's a bunch of 694 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:47,440 Speaker 1: like healings of the sick and stuff, and then of 695 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:49,960 Speaker 1: course the legend goes on and tells about the martyrdom 696 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:53,360 Speaker 1: of St. George after that. But that's the story of St. George, 697 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 1: the Princess and the Dragon. It's pretty good. I enjoyed 698 00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,440 Speaker 1: the build up more than the payoff. I think, you know, 699 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:02,439 Speaker 1: the lot ree system was pretty engaging. Well, there's no 700 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,960 Speaker 1: I mean St. George doesn't have a trick up his 701 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,120 Speaker 1: sleeve except prayer. That seems to be the thing. He's 702 00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:12,359 Speaker 1: just like, well, he prays and yay zu Chreast comes 703 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:14,840 Speaker 1: through and it slays the dragon. He doesn't have a trick, 704 00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:17,520 Speaker 1: you know, or maybe prayer is like a trick here. 705 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:19,600 Speaker 1: I'm not sure. Yeah, I guess prayer is the trick. 706 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:21,960 Speaker 1: I mean again, a lot of these stories, you look 707 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:24,880 Speaker 1: at some of the Greek myths, to defeat the monster, 708 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 1: one must use wisdom or weapons that are a gift 709 00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:32,160 Speaker 1: of the gods. So what is the difference I guess 710 00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:34,800 Speaker 1: ultimately between that in prayer right, Well, I guess it 711 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:36,759 Speaker 1: would just make a better story, like if ye zu 712 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:40,440 Speaker 1: Chreast came down and gave him a magical weapon or something. Yeah, 713 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 1: given a you know, the the Armor of Christ or something, 714 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,040 Speaker 1: or you know, some sort of fancy sword, and then 715 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 1: we can get the idea. It's like, oh, yeah, if 716 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:49,960 Speaker 1: you're on God's side, you can slay dragons. I get 717 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,600 Speaker 1: the same message, but it's a little more entertaining at 718 00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:55,279 Speaker 1: least you know, from me, right. But of course, as 719 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:57,920 Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier, this is sort of part of a 720 00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:01,440 Speaker 1: genre of stories that pro liferate around the world. There 721 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:05,160 Speaker 1: are all these dragon slang stories especially there of course, 722 00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:09,640 Speaker 1: medieval dragon slaying stories. Yeah, and I mentioned Joyce tally 723 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:13,600 Speaker 1: land Rand's earlier. I mentioned that she was an expert 724 00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:17,320 Speaker 1: on medieval dragon slangs and medieval dragons. I was reading 725 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,719 Speaker 1: on uh something she wrote titled the Sign of a 726 00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:25,520 Speaker 1: Hero Theodoric Saga of Burn uh and uh. In this 727 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:27,879 Speaker 1: she points out, and I'm a number of interesting things 728 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:33,640 Speaker 1: about some of the tales we've discussed, though more specifically Theodoric, Theodoric, 729 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:37,759 Speaker 1: the Great Beowulf and Siegfried. So she points out that 730 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,920 Speaker 1: in German literature, especially, dragon slaying becomes something of a 731 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:44,640 Speaker 1: defining characteristic of any hero. But so like you're like 732 00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:46,600 Speaker 1: I'm a hero. It's like, I don't know, did just 733 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:51,560 Speaker 1: lay a dragon? Exactly? I mean, that's the that's the problem, 734 00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,560 Speaker 1: because then how do you draw the line between standard 735 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:58,920 Speaker 1: heroes and truly mighty heroes if they're all monster slangs? 736 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:01,239 Speaker 1: And in doing so, also that the act of swaying 737 00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:04,000 Speaker 1: a dragon ends up serving perhaps less of a symbolic 738 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 1: uh purpose, right, I mean, you're not defeating chaos or 739 00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:11,239 Speaker 1: the devil or the the you know, the powers of 740 00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:14,120 Speaker 1: the dark um or. It's not serving as a you know, 741 00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:17,320 Speaker 1: mark of passage into adulthood. It's just like a necessary 742 00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:23,239 Speaker 1: um upgrade in the arms race of storytelling. So uh. 743 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:25,960 Speaker 1: In the particular old Norse saga that she's dealing with 744 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:28,600 Speaker 1: here in this paper, she points out, uh that it 745 00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,880 Speaker 1: tackles the problems of including both Theodoric the Great and 746 00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,799 Speaker 1: Sigfried in the same story. So what the what the 747 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:39,440 Speaker 1: story does is it makes Siegfried into Theodoric's vassal and 748 00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:41,879 Speaker 1: makes him kind of the sidekick, right, kind of wig 749 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:47,120 Speaker 1: kind of kind yeah, but also gives Theodoric two dragons 750 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,319 Speaker 1: and three baby dragons to kill. So in doing this, 751 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:52,879 Speaker 1: you know, killing a dragon becomes less an impressive act 752 00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,319 Speaker 1: in and of itself. A real hero has to kill 753 00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:57,879 Speaker 1: like upwards of five dragons. This is how we get 754 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:01,400 Speaker 1: Blade where you've got monster monster slayers that are like 755 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,799 Speaker 1: the vampire slayers, they gotta kill tons of vampires. Well yeah, 756 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:06,960 Speaker 1: I think also you're touched on something you get like 757 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,800 Speaker 1: maybe you get specific types of monster slayers and specific 758 00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:12,479 Speaker 1: types of monsters. Like, oh, that's a good point. Yeah, 759 00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:15,640 Speaker 1: Like you know, I guess in the Marvel universe, I 760 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:19,359 Speaker 1: imagine Captain America could kill a vampire, but if you're 761 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:23,279 Speaker 1: dealing with multiple vampires, it's got to be blayed every time, right, Yeah. Yeah, 762 00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:27,800 Speaker 1: he's he's specialized labor. You know, he's got all the 763 00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:30,560 Speaker 1: tricks and the tools and the knowledge. So in this 764 00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:32,680 Speaker 1: paper she also points out there's a distinction in the 765 00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:36,440 Speaker 1: types of dragons dealt with, some natural and other supernatural, 766 00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:40,120 Speaker 1: some flightless worms and other winged some and others are 767 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:44,920 Speaker 1: winged beasts. Uh. Demonica connotations, for example, are reserved in 768 00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:49,120 Speaker 1: this tale for the otter Ricks dragon foes. Well yeah, 769 00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:51,000 Speaker 1: I mean that's when in the original version of the 770 00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:54,439 Speaker 1: King George story that I was reading up there, did 771 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,680 Speaker 1: we receive any indication that the dragon could even fly. 772 00:42:58,040 --> 00:42:59,840 Speaker 1: I mean it might have just been like a big 773 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,320 Speaker 1: poison crocodile for right. I mean that makes would would 774 00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:07,359 Speaker 1: certainly match up with these depictions in which it is 775 00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:10,680 Speaker 1: very much on the ground beneath the horse. By the way, 776 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:14,880 Speaker 1: in that particular story, um uh, these two heroes eventually dual, 777 00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:18,280 Speaker 1: and of course, uh, theoto Ic the Great wins, Theodoric 778 00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:21,120 Speaker 1: kills Siegfried. Well, no, no, just defeats him. I could say, 779 00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:25,360 Speaker 1: to the death. They're not okay, But it's interesting that 780 00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:27,040 Speaker 1: they're kind of dealing with some of the probably some 781 00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:29,839 Speaker 1: of the problems that that the comic books have dealt 782 00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:31,920 Speaker 1: with in modern times, Like what happens when you when 783 00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:34,040 Speaker 1: you have two heroes in the same story, How do 784 00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:37,080 Speaker 1: you how do you balance their powers or how do 785 00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:40,879 Speaker 1: you show clear? Um, how do you have positioned one 786 00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:43,239 Speaker 1: above the other in a way that doesn't diminish the 787 00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:47,000 Speaker 1: other one too much? Well, you've gotta have what Captain 788 00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:49,880 Speaker 1: America and Iron Man fight. Yeah, it's kind of the 789 00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,600 Speaker 1: same deal, right, yeah? Or is it Thor and Iron Man? 790 00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:54,879 Speaker 1: I don't keep up with those, Um, I think may 791 00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:56,719 Speaker 1: and I don't mean, I guess they've all fought each other. 792 00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:58,759 Speaker 1: You can't help but have heroes fight each other. But 793 00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:02,719 Speaker 1: I I believe leave Captain America and Iron Man they're 794 00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:05,200 Speaker 1: the ones who who end up fighting each other in 795 00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:07,239 Speaker 1: the movie. You know another thing I was thinking about 796 00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:10,719 Speaker 1: when you mentioned how Lion Arn's highlighted that eventually they 797 00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:13,000 Speaker 1: have to start killing more and more monsters to show 798 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,719 Speaker 1: how great they are, because just killing one monster and yeah, 799 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:19,120 Speaker 1: it's not that impressive anymore. I obviously have to go 800 00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:23,640 Speaker 1: to Hercules. Hercules had a bunch of what what percent 801 00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:27,520 Speaker 1: of his twelve labors were monster slayings, A lot of them, right, Well, 802 00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:30,200 Speaker 1: we're about to go through them, so let's find out. Okay, 803 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:32,839 Speaker 1: everyone can keep track at home and uh and and 804 00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:36,759 Speaker 1: do do the math, please show your work. Hercules or 805 00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:40,360 Speaker 1: Heracles is of course one of the greatest monsters slayers 806 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:44,359 Speaker 1: in Greek and Roman traditions. Now granted he didn't take 807 00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,360 Speaker 1: out Medusa. That was Perseus, who of course used a 808 00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,759 Speaker 1: goddess given tactics and weapons to overcome the Gorgon. But 809 00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:52,960 Speaker 1: he eat did a hell of a lot during the 810 00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:57,200 Speaker 1: labors of Hercules. And there's I should point out, there's 811 00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:01,960 Speaker 1: a wonderful video game themed shore about this from ted Ed. 812 00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:04,719 Speaker 1: If you go to you know, YouTube or the ted 813 00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:07,600 Speaker 1: ed website you will find it. It's absolutely delightful. Yeah, 814 00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:09,920 Speaker 1: it's like so you say, video game themed, it's like 815 00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,399 Speaker 1: pixel art. It looks like a classic Nintendo game. Yeah, 816 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:15,439 Speaker 1: they are some sort of sixteen bit thing. I'm not sure. 817 00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:17,400 Speaker 1: I'm not sure exactly which bit it would be, but 818 00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:19,600 Speaker 1: it looks like a fabulous game. It makes me want 819 00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:23,279 Speaker 1: to play it. So basically, here's the rundown. You have Hercules, 820 00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:27,160 Speaker 1: this uh, this you know, semi divine hero. You know, 821 00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:32,080 Speaker 1: I like to picture the classic uh cinema Hercules with 822 00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:34,560 Speaker 1: the big beard and the big muscles. You know, he's 823 00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:36,600 Speaker 1: very much in the you know, the class of of 824 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:41,480 Speaker 1: masculine warrior heroes. And so he ends up going on 825 00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:44,040 Speaker 1: these labors. And these labors are an act of atonement 826 00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:48,000 Speaker 1: after the goddess Hera drives him mad, resulting in the 827 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:51,400 Speaker 1: murder of his own children, and these labors were assigned 828 00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:56,759 Speaker 1: to him by his name Nemesis Eurystheus. So these are 829 00:45:56,760 --> 00:45:59,399 Speaker 1: the labors. First labor, uh, he has to take out 830 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,480 Speaker 1: the Nimi and lion, which is a monstrous lion. Yeah. 831 00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:06,000 Speaker 1: Second labor is the Learnaean hydra, and this is a 832 00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:08,720 Speaker 1: classic monster that is sometimes described as a mere multi 833 00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:13,160 Speaker 1: headed snake monster, but later it takes on regenerative features 834 00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:15,480 Speaker 1: as well. So yeah, you cut off one head to 835 00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,239 Speaker 1: grow back in its place. Big Hurk had to get 836 00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:21,440 Speaker 1: hell from his nephew on this one, I believe, so 837 00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:24,279 Speaker 1: yes uh. And the solution here is a fabulous work 838 00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:27,840 Speaker 1: of team a bit of teamwork. Hirk slices off the 839 00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:31,560 Speaker 1: head and then the nephew jumps in and burns the stump. 840 00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:35,239 Speaker 1: Third labor Serenian hind. Not a monster really, but a 841 00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:40,959 Speaker 1: very special deer. Fourth labor is the Aramathean boar, which 842 00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,120 Speaker 1: is a monstrous boar, just another giant sized animal for 843 00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:48,200 Speaker 1: him to deal with. Fifth labor he cleans out the 844 00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:53,160 Speaker 1: Agean stables, so just lots of animal poop. Uh. Not 845 00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:58,000 Speaker 1: a monster, but a monstrous task. Uh. Sixth labor were 846 00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:02,359 Speaker 1: the Stemfalian bird words. Uh, these were pretty monsters. These 847 00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:05,680 Speaker 1: were the sacred metal war birds of aries bronze of 848 00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:10,240 Speaker 1: beak and feather, and they could launch their their metal 849 00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:15,800 Speaker 1: feathers like flying daggers. Seventh labor was the Cretan bull, 850 00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:19,040 Speaker 1: which is there any connection with the minotaur there. I 851 00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:21,279 Speaker 1: I mean, I would assume we're talking about crete, right, 852 00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:24,000 Speaker 1: and it's a bull. Yeah, but it's just a monstrous bull, 853 00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:27,400 Speaker 1: it's not a minatar um. Then the eighth labor was 854 00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:31,800 Speaker 1: were the mayors of Diometes, and these were flesh eating horses. 855 00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:33,960 Speaker 1: So they're pretty monsters now granted they were they were 856 00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:37,000 Speaker 1: trained to eat flesh, they were encouraged to eat flesh. 857 00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:39,799 Speaker 1: And uh, and he's able to overcome this one and 858 00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:44,400 Speaker 1: essentially gets their their masters eating instead. Ninth labor the 859 00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:48,880 Speaker 1: belt of Hippolyta monster the Amazon queen, right. Tenth labor 860 00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:52,960 Speaker 1: the cattle of Garyon, and Garon was a giant with 861 00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:59,360 Speaker 1: three faces. Eleventh labor the golden apples of Hesperites. And 862 00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:03,120 Speaker 1: then twelve labor, uh Cerebus, the three headed hellhound. So 863 00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:06,319 Speaker 1: here we have a good monster for him to to 864 00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:10,160 Speaker 1: tackle and literally tackle and wrestle and overcome. So these 865 00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:12,719 Speaker 1: are all these are all fun little adventures and uh, 866 00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:14,960 Speaker 1: we would need a lot more time to really talk 867 00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:18,040 Speaker 1: about all of them in depth and what they mean, etcetera. Um, 868 00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:19,880 Speaker 1: you know, and heck, we have a full episode on 869 00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:22,320 Speaker 1: Hydras in the vault. But one of the things that 870 00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:24,560 Speaker 1: strikes me here is that that her Again, it's very 871 00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:27,440 Speaker 1: much a male warrior hero, and he uses strength and 872 00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:29,600 Speaker 1: cunning to overcome his enemies. But at the same time, 873 00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:33,719 Speaker 1: herc is a divine being. He's a demigod, a hybrid 874 00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:37,200 Speaker 1: born of the god Zeus and immortal Mother, so he's 875 00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:40,720 Speaker 1: touched by the other worldly and therefore the perfect slayer 876 00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:44,120 Speaker 1: of other worldly enemies. I mean this highlights a couple 877 00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:46,960 Speaker 1: of different ways that monster slayers can be. One is 878 00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:50,040 Speaker 1: the courageous type, and the other is the fearless type, 879 00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:53,680 Speaker 1: which is a very different thing. Right. Uh. I mean, 880 00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:57,240 Speaker 1: does is there ever any indication that Hercules feels fear 881 00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:00,880 Speaker 1: when he goes to fight these monsters or does his 882 00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:04,560 Speaker 1: godlike nature, the fact that he's half god sort of 883 00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:09,279 Speaker 1: make him able to face these with a sense of invulnerability? Yeah? 884 00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:12,839 Speaker 1: I feel like it's it's a fearless uh situation. Fear 885 00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:18,160 Speaker 1: fearless and largely invulnerable because he is half god. Um, 886 00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:21,640 Speaker 1: you know, I can't help me be reminded again of Blade. Uh, 887 00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:25,920 Speaker 1: the specifically the Wesley Snipes blade. Uh? Is there another blade? 888 00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:28,640 Speaker 1: And there was like a TV blade played by what 889 00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:33,040 Speaker 1: sticky fingers I think or Fingers, Uh, the the Rapper 890 00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:35,040 Speaker 1: played him. Uh, and I don't know, I never saw 891 00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:38,640 Speaker 1: the show, but uh, as far as I'm concerned, Wesley 892 00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:41,880 Speaker 1: Snipes is the only blade um but in that he 893 00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:45,359 Speaker 1: is half vampire, so he has I think it's said 894 00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:47,799 Speaker 1: that he has um all of their strengths but none 895 00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:50,720 Speaker 1: of their weaknesses. Right, so he's the day Walker? Yeah, 896 00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:53,080 Speaker 1: well who who else but the day Walker? The DayWalker 897 00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:57,200 Speaker 1: is the perfect slayer of all of these vampires. Now, Robert, 898 00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:00,080 Speaker 1: I'm sure you would love to talk about some of 899 00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:03,440 Speaker 1: the monster slayers of Chinese myth and legend. Oh yeah, 900 00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:05,440 Speaker 1: there there are some good ones. One of them is 901 00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:07,920 Speaker 1: actually a character we've talked about on the show before, 902 00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:10,920 Speaker 1: uh in our episode on the Great Flood, because we 903 00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:16,400 Speaker 1: talked about the Chinese mythic hero uh You the Great 904 00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:20,520 Speaker 1: or die you. Um. He's also you know emperor and 905 00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:26,360 Speaker 1: founded uh the Shiah dynasty, which was two b C. 906 00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:29,560 Speaker 1: We talked about him on the show before about in 907 00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:34,640 Speaker 1: regards to his his his role in overcoming the ravages 908 00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:37,840 Speaker 1: of the Great Flood, not by building a boat or 909 00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:40,879 Speaker 1: anything like we see in you know, Mesopotamian and Old 910 00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:45,080 Speaker 1: Testament traditions, but by sort of tackling it with irrigation 911 00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:49,680 Speaker 1: and engineering, uh, but also through like having his father 912 00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:52,200 Speaker 1: having pilfered the secrets from the gods. So there's this 913 00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:55,680 Speaker 1: Promethean vibe to it as well. But he was also 914 00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:59,040 Speaker 1: something of a monster slayer. Uh. He is said to 915 00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:03,279 Speaker 1: have killed then nine headed serpent hng Lu, who is 916 00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:07,840 Speaker 1: a minister of the defeated chaotic water deity Gong Gong 917 00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:11,120 Speaker 1: uh and who was defeated in a battle for divine 918 00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:15,759 Speaker 1: supremacy against the against jen Zou, the grandson of the 919 00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:20,400 Speaker 1: mythical Yellow Emperor. As described by the authors Young and 920 00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:24,399 Speaker 1: On in Handbook of Chinese Mythology, Jiang Lu, the great 921 00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:27,920 Speaker 1: back black serpent here had nine human heads, and the 922 00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:31,640 Speaker 1: nine heads eight food from the nine mountains, and everywhere 923 00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:36,480 Speaker 1: it went it left impassable marshes in hostile gullies in 924 00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:40,320 Speaker 1: its path. Now do you think that the the idea 925 00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:42,719 Speaker 1: of like the nine heads with they're they're sort of 926 00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:45,600 Speaker 1: snaking necks has anything to do with rivers there with 927 00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:50,080 Speaker 1: river imagery, I assume, yeah. I didn't. I didn't. They 928 00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:53,640 Speaker 1: didn't go into into any more extended detail on the 929 00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:57,160 Speaker 1: possible symbolism of the of the of the nine heads, etcetera. 930 00:51:57,280 --> 00:51:58,759 Speaker 1: But it does bring to mind this idea of like 931 00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:02,680 Speaker 1: branching rivers does. Now, obviously, I think everyone can see 932 00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:07,320 Speaker 1: where we're going here. Like you, the Great overcomes floods 933 00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:08,960 Speaker 1: and the dangers of flood and here we have the 934 00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:14,279 Speaker 1: monster personification of floods and flood hazards. So you end 935 00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:17,080 Speaker 1: up slaying the monster. But the creature's blood is so 936 00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:20,719 Speaker 1: poisonous that it poisons the spot where it dies, so 937 00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:24,279 Speaker 1: that life can find no purchase there. And you wants 938 00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:26,879 Speaker 1: to overcome this so so the crops can be grown 939 00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:28,920 Speaker 1: there and and dug and so he digs out the 940 00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:32,160 Speaker 1: poisoned earth not once, not twice, but three times, and 941 00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:35,360 Speaker 1: each time the blood sinks down even deeper. And eventually 942 00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:38,480 Speaker 1: he just has to build a terrace from the excavated soil. 943 00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:41,440 Speaker 1: Uh and uh and atop this uh you know it's 944 00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:44,759 Speaker 1: it is. It's like a temple that's uh devoted to 945 00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:48,319 Speaker 1: the great gods. Now. Yang and On mentioned that this 946 00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:50,840 Speaker 1: story is not really told that much in modern China, 947 00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:53,920 Speaker 1: but it's some versions of it still survive, such as 948 00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:59,320 Speaker 1: one from Sichuan Province in which Jen Zou survives battle 949 00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:03,360 Speaker 1: with the our god wrong and continues to bring flooding 950 00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:06,400 Speaker 1: and death to the earth, forcing the mother goddess Nuah 951 00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:10,000 Speaker 1: to slay it. So here we get to a godess 952 00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:13,640 Speaker 1: getting involved in the slaying again. Um Nah also more 953 00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:18,160 Speaker 1: famously defeated the Black Dragon, also a being of chaotic 954 00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:22,239 Speaker 1: water and flood energy. I'd also be remiss if I 955 00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:27,560 Speaker 1: didn't mention the archer who ye who killed a number 956 00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:30,040 Speaker 1: of different monsters, and of course shot down the nine 957 00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:33,680 Speaker 1: surplus sons that were roasting the earth, and in some 958 00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:37,040 Speaker 1: tellings he actually shot and killed nine great crows that 959 00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:41,040 Speaker 1: carried these sons. Now, it's also interesting is that during 960 00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:43,840 Speaker 1: this age of ten Sons, not only is it just 961 00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:46,759 Speaker 1: really hot and difficult to grow crops, it's also said 962 00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:49,759 Speaker 1: to be a time of cosmic imbalance, and during this 963 00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:53,879 Speaker 1: time a lot of unnatural monsters rise up, and so 964 00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:57,600 Speaker 1: the emperor ends up tasking uh ye the archer with 965 00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:01,400 Speaker 1: their destruction uh and us. Just just a few of 966 00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:04,920 Speaker 1: the monsters that he ends up killing include uh uh 967 00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:07,120 Speaker 1: There's a monster with the dragon's head and the leopard's body, 968 00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:10,480 Speaker 1: a monster with teeth a sharp as chisels that are unbreakable. 969 00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:13,840 Speaker 1: There is a nine headed monster, there's a giant bird, 970 00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:17,759 Speaker 1: a giant bore, a giant snake. Uh So again all 971 00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:20,640 Speaker 1: manner of unnatural creatures who rose up during a time 972 00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:25,160 Speaker 1: of cosmic imbalance. He also punishes a couple of damaging 973 00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:28,239 Speaker 1: elemental gods with a well placed to arrow or two. 974 00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:31,400 Speaker 1: For instance, he shot the damaging win god he bow 975 00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:34,480 Speaker 1: in the eye, and he took out both knees of 976 00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:37,839 Speaker 1: the damaging river god Fingbo, and in other versions he 977 00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:43,240 Speaker 1: kills Fingbo outright. So once again we have like river 978 00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:47,239 Speaker 1: water elemental monsters that have to be dealt with by 979 00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:50,600 Speaker 1: a hero. Yeah, and the idea of them coming out 980 00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:55,080 Speaker 1: of a time of cosmic imbalance um seems to somehow echoed, 981 00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:58,040 Speaker 1: you know, the very ancient monster concepts of like the 982 00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:01,360 Speaker 1: chaos monster, like like TMA NAPSU. Al Right, well, on 983 00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:03,799 Speaker 1: that note, let's take one more break and we come back. 984 00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:08,640 Speaker 1: Let's talk about what the slayer means to us. Thank you, 985 00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:12,640 Speaker 1: thank you, all right, we're back. Okay. So we've been 986 00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:16,200 Speaker 1: looking at a lot of great examples of monsters and 987 00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:20,480 Speaker 1: their slayers, the monster slayers stories from throughout human history, 988 00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:23,160 Speaker 1: and now we wanted to take a look at what 989 00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:25,960 Speaker 1: what what the monster slayer means? Why do we keep 990 00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:29,799 Speaker 1: telling stories like this? Why is this so common? And 991 00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:33,400 Speaker 1: what purpose psychologically and culturally does it serve when we 992 00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:36,040 Speaker 1: do so. One of the things I want to say 993 00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:40,040 Speaker 1: at the outside, just as a kind of disclaimer, is that, um, 994 00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:43,600 Speaker 1: I feel like when we try to explain what stories 995 00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:47,360 Speaker 1: and myths mean from a kind of evolutionary psychology perspective, 996 00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:50,160 Speaker 1: we always need to remember to understand the difference between 997 00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:53,320 Speaker 1: like proving a theory with direct evidence and sort of 998 00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:56,640 Speaker 1: simply telling a plausible story and arguing it to be 999 00:55:56,719 --> 00:55:59,360 Speaker 1: consistent with what we know now. I'm actually all for 1000 00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:03,600 Speaker 1: having arguments over plausible stories and evo psych and all that, 1001 00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:06,080 Speaker 1: but it's imperative for us to remember that that's what 1002 00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:09,400 Speaker 1: they are. I think sometimes people get carried away with 1003 00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:12,280 Speaker 1: this project and they jump from I've told a plausible 1004 00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:15,400 Speaker 1: story about why we have this cultural thing or the 1005 00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:20,640 Speaker 1: psychological thing too. I have discovered the biological origin of 1006 00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:23,520 Speaker 1: this element of human psychology or culture, and we I 1007 00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:25,319 Speaker 1: think we just always need to be careful not to 1008 00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:30,240 Speaker 1: do that. Sometimes you see people taking like almost Joseph 1009 00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:33,640 Speaker 1: Campbelly kind of observations to the point of saying like 1010 00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:36,360 Speaker 1: this is just science and that you know, you know 1011 00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:38,839 Speaker 1: what I mean that said, all these kind of like 1012 00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:42,319 Speaker 1: Joseph Campbelly sort of observations can be a lot of fun, right, 1013 00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:45,040 Speaker 1: and and he of course had lots to say and 1014 00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:49,640 Speaker 1: think about the role of monster slayers. Yeah, I mean, likewise, um, 1015 00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:52,919 Speaker 1: Julian Jays the by camera mind, which I'll actually touch 1016 00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:54,759 Speaker 1: on in a bit like if you if you go 1017 00:56:55,120 --> 00:56:59,000 Speaker 1: entirely down the Jane's well of interpreting everything, then yeah, 1018 00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:01,200 Speaker 1: it can be a lot of fun. Then you have 1019 00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:05,279 Speaker 1: cut off all other perspectives on what the thing is. Well, 1020 00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:08,279 Speaker 1: I mean, so one thing that uh, somebody I think, 1021 00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:11,239 Speaker 1: like Joseph Campbell would say is that the role of 1022 00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:17,320 Speaker 1: the monster slayer in fiction is about like facing the ego. 1023 00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:20,520 Speaker 1: It's like this ego struggle and that you've got to 1024 00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:24,680 Speaker 1: face yourself and overcome your fears and and change something 1025 00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:27,720 Speaker 1: about yourself. You know that that kind of thing. And 1026 00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:30,680 Speaker 1: so I I do agree at least that it's totally 1027 00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:37,560 Speaker 1: plausible that monster slayer stories are very prominent and very 1028 00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:41,560 Speaker 1: common because stories about facing dangers and facing fears are 1029 00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:44,840 Speaker 1: psychologically very salient. To us. You know, we're constantly in 1030 00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:48,280 Speaker 1: our lives faced with situations where we don't want to 1031 00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:51,919 Speaker 1: do something, but in order to to get what we want, 1032 00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:53,960 Speaker 1: we have to do that thing we don't want to do. 1033 00:57:54,160 --> 00:57:56,160 Speaker 1: You know, you've got to face your fears and overcome 1034 00:57:56,200 --> 00:57:59,760 Speaker 1: your discomfort to I don't know, save the princess, or 1035 00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:02,720 Speaker 1: to do whatever. And I think that's a totally plausible 1036 00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:06,360 Speaker 1: basis for for starting a conversation about what monster slayer 1037 00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:09,160 Speaker 1: miths mean. So another way to get deeper on this subject, 1038 00:58:09,160 --> 00:58:11,280 Speaker 1: I guess would be to look a little bit more 1039 00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:14,280 Speaker 1: at what the monsters in these stories mean. And I 1040 00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:16,439 Speaker 1: want to posit a place for us to start there. 1041 00:58:16,560 --> 00:58:19,560 Speaker 1: I would pose it that the monsters in these stories, 1042 00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:23,520 Speaker 1: most often, I would say, UH, seem to come from 1043 00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:31,320 Speaker 1: a combination of two main psychological UH components, biological threats 1044 00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:35,760 Speaker 1: and category confusions. And if we've talked about category confusion 1045 00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:38,760 Speaker 1: quite a bit on the show, the idea that it's 1046 00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:41,640 Speaker 1: go back to hercules, right, Yeah, it's like a snake 1047 00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:43,640 Speaker 1: but it has way too many heads, or it's like 1048 00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:46,880 Speaker 1: a boar but it's gigantic. What's going on? Right? And 1049 00:58:47,200 --> 00:58:49,720 Speaker 1: there are reasons I think that would be significant. I'll 1050 00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:51,800 Speaker 1: get to that in just a minute now. Obviously, the 1051 00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:55,000 Speaker 1: fear of biological threats is pretty straightforward. There's a natural 1052 00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:59,400 Speaker 1: fear of predatory or venomous animals and of human rivals. 1053 00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:01,880 Speaker 1: And this doesn't need much explaining. In the basic sense, 1054 00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:05,200 Speaker 1: predators are dangerous and thus a deeply ingrained archetype from 1055 00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:08,320 Speaker 1: the natural world. But there there are also some relevant 1056 00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:12,800 Speaker 1: questions like why are certain forms such as snakes, which 1057 00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:16,520 Speaker 1: you've seen all throughout these monsters and spiders. Also, why 1058 00:59:16,520 --> 00:59:19,960 Speaker 1: are those things readily seen as monstrous or incorporated in 1059 00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:24,160 Speaker 1: parts into chimerical monsters? Why so easily a spider monster 1060 00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:27,800 Speaker 1: or a serpentine monster, why not more often like a 1061 00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:30,160 Speaker 1: bear monster. You might have one of those every now 1062 00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:32,120 Speaker 1: and then. That's true, because, of course, the argument with 1063 00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:34,919 Speaker 1: the the snake or the or the spider is that 1064 00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:38,040 Speaker 1: if it bites you, you could die. Depending on the 1065 00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:41,040 Speaker 1: variety of snake or spider, If the bear bites you, 1066 00:59:41,360 --> 00:59:44,200 Speaker 1: there's also a very good chance you'll die, right Yeah, 1067 00:59:44,040 --> 00:59:46,080 Speaker 1: uh so, yeah, this is actually long been a question. 1068 00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:49,640 Speaker 1: There's been this big question about whether these common fears, 1069 00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:52,680 Speaker 1: especially if things like spiders and snakes are are learned 1070 00:59:52,840 --> 00:59:54,720 Speaker 1: or in aid and Robert, I know you've looked at 1071 00:59:54,720 --> 00:59:59,480 Speaker 1: research like this too. Obviously, some part of any widespread 1072 00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:02,280 Speaker 1: fear will be based on cultural conditioning, so I think 1073 01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:07,320 Speaker 1: it's pretty inarguable that some part of this fear is learned, right, 1074 01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:11,240 Speaker 1: But could there also be a biological factor. Could there 1075 01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:14,520 Speaker 1: also be some in built part of the brain that 1076 01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:17,960 Speaker 1: is prone to recognize the shapes of spiders and snakes 1077 01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:22,040 Speaker 1: and react fearfully without any prior knowledge or conditioning. And 1078 01:00:22,080 --> 01:00:24,520 Speaker 1: I'd say that the question still isn't totally settled, but 1079 01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:29,040 Speaker 1: there's been some interesting research suggesting, especially recently, that yes, 1080 01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:33,800 Speaker 1: recognition could be an eight. One example is uh study 1081 01:00:33,840 --> 01:00:38,960 Speaker 1: from in Frontiers and Psychology called Etsy Bitsy Spider infants 1082 01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:42,920 Speaker 1: react with increased arousal spider and snakes spiders and snakes, 1083 01:00:43,080 --> 01:00:44,640 Speaker 1: So of course what they did in the study here 1084 01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:47,280 Speaker 1: was they threw babies into cribs full of spiders and 1085 01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:52,120 Speaker 1: snakes they did not, And the study showed six month 1086 01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:56,920 Speaker 1: old infants images with similar shapes and colors. So visually 1087 01:00:56,960 --> 01:00:59,840 Speaker 1: these images were very close to each other, but with 1088 01:01:00,160 --> 01:01:04,480 Speaker 1: different ontological content. Some of them were pictures of spiders 1089 01:01:04,640 --> 01:01:08,680 Speaker 1: versus flowers. That looked very similar, and others were pictures 1090 01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:12,440 Speaker 1: of snakes versus fish that looked very similar. And the 1091 01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:17,120 Speaker 1: researchers measured the baby's differential pupillary response to these images, 1092 01:01:17,200 --> 01:01:19,880 Speaker 1: the dilation of the pupils, and that's accepted as a 1093 01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:23,640 Speaker 1: pretty good indicator of activation of the nero dreenergenic system, 1094 01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:27,040 Speaker 1: which is a physiological fear response. You know, it commands 1095 01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:31,080 Speaker 1: your attention and your body responds physiologically. Uh. And the 1096 01:01:31,120 --> 01:01:35,360 Speaker 1: author's right quote, infants reacted with increased pupillary dilation, indicating 1097 01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:38,960 Speaker 1: arousal to spiders and snakes compared with flowers and fish. 1098 01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:43,280 Speaker 1: Results support the notion of an evolved preparedness for developing 1099 01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:47,320 Speaker 1: fear of these ancestral threats. So if even six month 1100 01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:50,200 Speaker 1: old babies show a stress response to images of spiders 1101 01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:53,280 Speaker 1: and snakes, it would seem that those forms could in 1102 01:01:53,320 --> 01:01:56,240 Speaker 1: some way be hardwired into us. There's at least part 1103 01:01:56,280 --> 01:02:00,240 Speaker 1: of us that is naturally biologically afraid of those things, 1104 01:02:00,240 --> 01:02:04,720 Speaker 1: and it's not just cultural conditioning. Uh. And another question 1105 01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:07,320 Speaker 1: there is why spiders and snakes, Right, we brought this 1106 01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:10,840 Speaker 1: up a minute ago. There are much more dangerous animals. Uh. 1107 01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:14,600 Speaker 1: One possible answer offered in a CBC interview by study 1108 01:02:14,640 --> 01:02:19,480 Speaker 1: author Stephanie hull Is quote, what's really interesting about spiders 1109 01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:21,440 Speaker 1: and snakes is that they have been posing a threat 1110 01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:25,880 Speaker 1: to our ancestors for an immensely long time. Spiders and 1111 01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:29,760 Speaker 1: snakes developed a venomous bites forty to sixty million years ago. 1112 01:02:30,200 --> 01:02:34,160 Speaker 1: This is a really long long time of coevolution, and 1113 01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:37,240 Speaker 1: we think that this enables primates, not only humans, but 1114 01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:41,160 Speaker 1: other primates as well, to develop mechanisms that enable us 1115 01:02:41,160 --> 01:02:44,720 Speaker 1: to detect these animals very quickly, to respond to them, 1116 01:02:44,880 --> 01:02:47,560 Speaker 1: to put our bodies into fight or flight mode. This 1117 01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:51,080 Speaker 1: may really have posed an advantage. Nowadays, it doesn't make 1118 01:02:51,120 --> 01:02:54,600 Speaker 1: so much sense. So the idea there is that, well, 1119 01:02:54,640 --> 01:02:57,320 Speaker 1: maybe it's not that we naturally respond to spiders and 1120 01:02:57,400 --> 01:03:01,520 Speaker 1: snakes because they're the most dangerous animals, but because they're 1121 01:03:01,600 --> 01:03:05,400 Speaker 1: the dangerous forms we've been around the longest and have 1122 01:03:05,560 --> 01:03:09,360 Speaker 1: stayed looking the same the longest. Does that make sense? Yeah, 1123 01:03:09,400 --> 01:03:13,200 Speaker 1: The the basic formula, the basic the basic uh proposition 1124 01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:16,680 Speaker 1: of a snake or spider has not changed in human 1125 01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:19,920 Speaker 1: history or even in primate history. Yes, But I might 1126 01:03:19,960 --> 01:03:21,960 Speaker 1: just note, on the other hand, there's also some evidence 1127 01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:25,760 Speaker 1: pointing against the hard coded phylogenetic threat hypothesis. For example, 1128 01:03:25,800 --> 01:03:27,880 Speaker 1: I found a study from two thousand nine in which 1129 01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:31,960 Speaker 1: adults recognized images of guns just as efficiently as they 1130 01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:35,560 Speaker 1: recognized images of snakes. Now, of course, guns aren't part 1131 01:03:35,560 --> 01:03:38,720 Speaker 1: of our biological neurohistory, so they couldn't. There couldn't be 1132 01:03:38,760 --> 01:03:41,520 Speaker 1: like a hardwired gun response in the brain that has 1133 01:03:41,560 --> 01:03:44,720 Speaker 1: to be culturally learned. But then again, maybe maybe it's 1134 01:03:44,720 --> 01:03:48,400 Speaker 1: just that are cognitively based or learned fears become every 1135 01:03:48,440 --> 01:03:52,680 Speaker 1: bit as efficient in the brain as the hardwired, evolved ones. 1136 01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:57,120 Speaker 1: That could be. How about fulsa dooms bow that shoots 1137 01:03:57,120 --> 01:04:01,000 Speaker 1: snakes from common the barbarian that see that is the 1138 01:04:01,120 --> 01:04:05,640 Speaker 1: ultimate physiological threat arousal trigger. I mean, I couldn't react 1139 01:04:05,720 --> 01:04:08,600 Speaker 1: with anything but worship. There, you know, in that movie 1140 01:04:08,640 --> 01:04:11,960 Speaker 1: we have another great example of monster slang because one 1141 01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:17,560 Speaker 1: of Conan's early UH trials is the slaying of the 1142 01:04:17,840 --> 01:04:20,240 Speaker 1: giant snake that also Doom keeps as a pet in 1143 01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:21,960 Speaker 1: one of the temples. Yeah, what is he does? He 1144 01:04:22,040 --> 01:04:26,240 Speaker 1: strangle it? He eventually chops its head off. There's some 1145 01:04:26,280 --> 01:04:29,240 Speaker 1: wrestling there, for sure, There's some There's some wrestling, But 1146 01:04:29,320 --> 01:04:32,200 Speaker 1: of course it's a snake. I mean, dragons are essentially snakes. 1147 01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:36,240 Speaker 1: We always have these snake forms reappearing as monsters over 1148 01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:38,320 Speaker 1: and over. It's got a snake for a head, or 1149 01:04:38,360 --> 01:04:41,560 Speaker 1: the whole thing is a snake with wings or you know. Well, now, 1150 01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:44,400 Speaker 1: in Western traditions, but as we've mentioned, in Eastern traditions, 1151 01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:48,080 Speaker 1: there's I feel like there's enhanced, uh there's an enhanced 1152 01:04:48,120 --> 01:04:52,360 Speaker 1: hybrid nature to the dragons. Yeah, the the Eastern dragon becomes, 1153 01:04:52,440 --> 01:04:55,120 Speaker 1: I would argue, an even more fascinating creature with more 1154 01:04:56,440 --> 01:04:59,120 Speaker 1: more valences, you know, more like it's more like the 1155 01:04:59,200 --> 01:05:03,600 Speaker 1: core maybe and having multiple significances at different levels. But 1156 01:05:03,680 --> 01:05:06,000 Speaker 1: I would also think that, you know, the Eastern dragon 1157 01:05:06,080 --> 01:05:09,160 Speaker 1: tends to be less of a monster, it's more of 1158 01:05:09,200 --> 01:05:12,240 Speaker 1: a I mean, it's it's very very often you know, 1159 01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:15,680 Speaker 1: it is definitely an elemental force. It's tied to floods 1160 01:05:15,680 --> 01:05:18,240 Speaker 1: and storms and waters in the ocean, but it does 1161 01:05:18,280 --> 01:05:21,280 Speaker 1: have more of a divine presence than you find in 1162 01:05:21,560 --> 01:05:25,760 Speaker 1: uh in Western traditions. Yeah, uh so, So anyway back 1163 01:05:25,800 --> 01:05:28,240 Speaker 1: to the idea of the basis of these monster fears. 1164 01:05:28,240 --> 01:05:31,040 Speaker 1: So one, you've got these elements that are so often 1165 01:05:31,080 --> 01:05:34,760 Speaker 1: taken from what appear to be at least maybe hard 1166 01:05:34,880 --> 01:05:39,360 Speaker 1: coded form threats, phylogenetic threats that are, you know, part 1167 01:05:39,400 --> 01:05:42,600 Speaker 1: of our evolutionary history, and they at least at some 1168 01:05:42,720 --> 01:05:45,919 Speaker 1: level maybe hard coded in the brain, if not hard 1169 01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:49,680 Speaker 1: coded in the brain, very well coded into culture. Uh. 1170 01:05:49,720 --> 01:05:51,800 Speaker 1: And the other thing, of course, we feel we mentioned 1171 01:05:51,800 --> 01:05:54,840 Speaker 1: a minute ago, is the discomfort with category confusion. So 1172 01:05:55,480 --> 01:05:58,240 Speaker 1: let's say we're defending ourselves from a natural threat, whether 1173 01:05:58,280 --> 01:06:00,880 Speaker 1: that's a venomous snake or a lepard or a wolf. 1174 01:06:01,280 --> 01:06:04,800 Speaker 1: One of our greatest defense mechanisms is not our muscles 1175 01:06:04,800 --> 01:06:09,040 Speaker 1: but our brains, right awareness and recognition, the ability to 1176 01:06:09,200 --> 01:06:13,160 Speaker 1: cognitively pick out signs of threats and avoid them. And then, 1177 01:06:13,200 --> 01:06:16,120 Speaker 1: of course also if we must face a threat, like 1178 01:06:16,240 --> 01:06:20,120 Speaker 1: cleverness and strategic thinking to overcome the threat. But most 1179 01:06:20,160 --> 01:06:23,680 Speaker 1: of our defensive thinking is actually one form or another 1180 01:06:23,800 --> 01:06:26,720 Speaker 1: of category sorting. Right, you see a shape and you 1181 01:06:26,760 --> 01:06:29,680 Speaker 1: immediately start to sort what kind of thing is that? 1182 01:06:30,160 --> 01:06:32,880 Speaker 1: Is that a harmless bunny or a venomous snake? And 1183 01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:36,000 Speaker 1: so perhaps one reason we fear monsters so much is 1184 01:06:36,040 --> 01:06:39,720 Speaker 1: that they not only represent aspects of real biological threats 1185 01:06:39,720 --> 01:06:43,840 Speaker 1: and predators, but that they defy our normal categorical sorting 1186 01:06:43,880 --> 01:06:47,560 Speaker 1: mechanisms by blurring the lines between categories of things. So 1187 01:06:47,720 --> 01:06:50,200 Speaker 1: a spider a hundred times bigger than it should be, 1188 01:06:50,520 --> 01:06:54,360 Speaker 1: a snake with wings, a lion that can talk uh, 1189 01:06:54,400 --> 01:06:58,280 Speaker 1: And by the way, they defy intuitive sorting. These creatures 1190 01:06:58,400 --> 01:07:02,760 Speaker 1: resist easy cognitive understanding, and thus they cause discomfort and fear. 1191 01:07:03,320 --> 01:07:06,600 Speaker 1: Like a creature that has aspects of biological threats like 1192 01:07:06,680 --> 01:07:11,640 Speaker 1: predatory or venomous forms, and also simultaneously messes with our 1193 01:07:11,680 --> 01:07:15,760 Speaker 1: cognitive defenses by violating category coherence. That's sort of the 1194 01:07:15,840 --> 01:07:19,720 Speaker 1: ultimate threat, right it. It beats your greatest defense, and 1195 01:07:19,840 --> 01:07:23,040 Speaker 1: it is the most threatening kind of thing. Thus the 1196 01:07:23,080 --> 01:07:26,400 Speaker 1: monster slayer has to overcome more than the normal warrior. 1197 01:07:26,480 --> 01:07:30,240 Speaker 1: They have to face primordial fears and square off against 1198 01:07:30,240 --> 01:07:33,240 Speaker 1: an enemy that normally makes us feel weak and helpless 1199 01:07:33,240 --> 01:07:36,800 Speaker 1: and afraid at the deepest level. And in this respect, 1200 01:07:36,840 --> 01:07:38,439 Speaker 1: you can you can sort of look at it. Any 1201 01:07:38,480 --> 01:07:41,120 Speaker 1: myth is is simply a situation where you know, you 1202 01:07:41,160 --> 01:07:44,120 Speaker 1: sit around the fire and one guy's like, yeah, I'm 1203 01:07:44,200 --> 01:07:46,440 Speaker 1: kind of afraid of the darkness. It seems, you know, 1204 01:07:46,520 --> 01:07:49,400 Speaker 1: kind of it seems kind of intense. I mean, who 1205 01:07:49,440 --> 01:07:52,320 Speaker 1: knows what's out there, and it's what all that's out there? 1206 01:07:52,360 --> 01:07:53,760 Speaker 1: It might try to eat me and one day I'm 1207 01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:56,920 Speaker 1: gonna die anyway. And then the the other soldiers sit 1208 01:07:57,000 --> 01:08:00,280 Speaker 1: around the fire says, well, let me tell you a story, 1209 01:08:00,400 --> 01:08:03,080 Speaker 1: because this story has a hero in it, and all 1210 01:08:03,120 --> 01:08:05,440 Speaker 1: that stuff that you're afraid of he just cuts its 1211 01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:08,840 Speaker 1: head off. It's that, it's that simple. And so here's 1212 01:08:08,880 --> 01:08:11,720 Speaker 1: a hero that you can you can you can ruminate on. 1213 01:08:12,320 --> 01:08:16,880 Speaker 1: Do you think that inherently the monster slayer story is 1214 01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:20,960 Speaker 1: more often empowering to the audience, to the person listening, 1215 01:08:21,040 --> 01:08:24,200 Speaker 1: like you can be like that hero, or is it 1216 01:08:24,240 --> 01:08:29,040 Speaker 1: more often uh, commanding kind of submission and obedience, like 1217 01:08:29,160 --> 01:08:31,800 Speaker 1: look at what our heroes are like, you must bow 1218 01:08:31,840 --> 01:08:33,840 Speaker 1: down before them. I don't know, do you know what 1219 01:08:33,880 --> 01:08:35,960 Speaker 1: I mean? Well that it could be like chill out, 1220 01:08:36,200 --> 01:08:37,920 Speaker 1: we have it, there's a hero out there doing this 1221 01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:40,840 Speaker 1: for you, or chill out like the power behind the 1222 01:08:41,200 --> 01:08:44,160 Speaker 1: behind the hero, the god or the gods or the 1223 01:08:44,200 --> 01:08:47,680 Speaker 1: goddess that if you're behind that god, then hey, that 1224 01:08:47,720 --> 01:08:49,320 Speaker 1: God's got to hero. You don't have to worry about it. 1225 01:08:49,360 --> 01:08:52,280 Speaker 1: But then in later it's certainly more more modern understanding 1226 01:08:52,360 --> 01:08:55,439 Speaker 1: is like yeah, I'm kind of like Blade, right, I 1227 01:08:55,520 --> 01:08:58,280 Speaker 1: can you know, like at least on some level, like 1228 01:08:58,320 --> 01:09:01,960 Speaker 1: we're we're supposed to uh, I mean we're rooting for 1229 01:09:02,040 --> 01:09:05,880 Speaker 1: the hero. We're rooting for Blade or Dutch or whoever. Uh, 1230 01:09:05,920 --> 01:09:09,280 Speaker 1: And and we are kind of living the story through them. 1231 01:09:09,320 --> 01:09:11,240 Speaker 1: And yeah, you kind of leave those those pictures, those 1232 01:09:11,280 --> 01:09:13,960 Speaker 1: stories feeling I can slay the monsters in my life, 1233 01:09:14,560 --> 01:09:17,040 Speaker 1: the blood suckers in my life. I think they might 1234 01:09:17,080 --> 01:09:20,040 Speaker 1: have a steak coming. Quick note, I'm not encouraging anyone 1235 01:09:20,080 --> 01:09:23,200 Speaker 1: to stake anybody. Oh no, no, no, we're not trying 1236 01:09:23,200 --> 01:09:26,799 Speaker 1: to create Martin's out there or wait no, not Martin's 1237 01:09:26,840 --> 01:09:29,439 Speaker 1: what it's Martin's uncle or whatever. Right, are you talking 1238 01:09:29,439 --> 01:09:32,320 Speaker 1: about the Romero film? Yeah? Oh yeah, It's been a 1239 01:09:32,320 --> 01:09:34,559 Speaker 1: long time since I've seen that. We don't be like 1240 01:09:34,640 --> 01:09:37,679 Speaker 1: anybody in that movie. Just don't don't imitate any part 1241 01:09:37,680 --> 01:09:42,400 Speaker 1: of it, all right. So in order to overcome the monster, though, 1242 01:09:42,640 --> 01:09:45,639 Speaker 1: the hero is probably gonna need a certain amount of courage. 1243 01:09:46,320 --> 01:09:48,720 Speaker 1: I mean, arguably, if you're getting into like, are they 1244 01:09:48,760 --> 01:09:50,799 Speaker 1: do they have any fear to begin with? If they 1245 01:09:50,880 --> 01:09:52,840 Speaker 1: have any amount of fear, they're gonna have to summon 1246 01:09:52,840 --> 01:09:55,920 Speaker 1: courage or they're gonna have to exhibit courage that is 1247 01:09:56,439 --> 01:09:59,680 Speaker 1: beyond that which the normal person would seem to have, right, 1248 01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:02,519 Speaker 1: because if you're Baowulf, otherwise, why would you go into 1249 01:10:02,560 --> 01:10:04,840 Speaker 1: the dark, Why would you dive down into the deep 1250 01:10:04,880 --> 01:10:07,200 Speaker 1: and find the layer? Well, so there there are a 1251 01:10:07,240 --> 01:10:09,840 Speaker 1: couple of different ways you can go in to face 1252 01:10:09,920 --> 01:10:12,479 Speaker 1: the monster, right. I guess one would be to to 1253 01:10:12,560 --> 01:10:15,639 Speaker 1: have courage to overcome your fear, because I guess that's 1254 01:10:15,680 --> 01:10:19,000 Speaker 1: sort of the definition of courage, right. Courage is a 1255 01:10:19,080 --> 01:10:24,520 Speaker 1: cognitive overriding of anxiety that prevents the physiological fear response 1256 01:10:24,960 --> 01:10:29,040 Speaker 1: or or overcomes the physiological fear response and prevents you 1257 01:10:29,080 --> 01:10:31,519 Speaker 1: from running away. It makes you you know you've got 1258 01:10:31,560 --> 01:10:34,920 Speaker 1: control and you make yourself face the fear inducing thing 1259 01:10:35,320 --> 01:10:37,360 Speaker 1: like the I think a great example of this is 1260 01:10:37,400 --> 01:10:41,639 Speaker 1: an Aliens where ripley Uh, well, she certainly she's returning 1261 01:10:41,680 --> 01:10:43,439 Speaker 1: to the world of the Zeno more from the first half, 1262 01:10:43,479 --> 01:10:45,200 Speaker 1: but in the later half of the film she is 1263 01:10:45,240 --> 01:10:48,040 Speaker 1: going back in to save news. She is descending into 1264 01:10:48,080 --> 01:10:50,920 Speaker 1: the monster's world in facing something that it has been 1265 01:10:50,920 --> 01:10:53,960 Speaker 1: well established she is terrified of. That is that is 1266 01:10:53,960 --> 01:10:56,759 Speaker 1: a great example, and in fact, I will say, while 1267 01:10:56,800 --> 01:10:59,479 Speaker 1: I have mixed feelings about a lot of monster slayers, 1268 01:10:59,560 --> 01:11:01,719 Speaker 1: you know, I'm like, I don't know if I like Beowulf, 1269 01:11:01,800 --> 01:11:04,719 Speaker 1: maybe I think Grendel, grind Maybe Grindel At a point, 1270 01:11:05,200 --> 01:11:09,040 Speaker 1: Ripley I think is a is a truly holy monster slayer. 1271 01:11:09,080 --> 01:11:13,519 Speaker 1: I am one hundred percent behind Ripley in her slaying quest, right, 1272 01:11:13,560 --> 01:11:15,519 Speaker 1: I mean that's a really a straight up Beowolf story 1273 01:11:15,520 --> 01:11:18,439 Speaker 1: because she also ends up essentially fighting Grendel's mother. Yes, 1274 01:11:18,640 --> 01:11:22,320 Speaker 1: in aliens, Yeah, but if it were terminator versus alien, 1275 01:11:22,840 --> 01:11:24,840 Speaker 1: then that that would be the other half, right, that 1276 01:11:24,840 --> 01:11:28,040 Speaker 1: would be the the hero that doesn't feel fear to 1277 01:11:28,080 --> 01:11:31,000 Speaker 1: begin with. And sometimes you don't know, I mean sometimes 1278 01:11:31,040 --> 01:11:33,200 Speaker 1: you kind of feel that way. Is that what Beowulf's like? 1279 01:11:33,360 --> 01:11:35,639 Speaker 1: Is that what Herchilles are like? Are these heroes supposed 1280 01:11:35,680 --> 01:11:39,360 Speaker 1: to be people who just are incapable of feeling afraid 1281 01:11:39,479 --> 01:11:43,200 Speaker 1: in the face of this monster? Uh? You do think? 1282 01:11:43,439 --> 01:11:45,920 Speaker 1: You know? You wonder if is mar Duke. Is mar 1283 01:11:46,000 --> 01:11:49,080 Speaker 1: Duke courageous or is he just fearless? I wonder if 1284 01:11:49,120 --> 01:11:52,760 Speaker 1: mar Duke is actually courageous because mar Duke makes a bargain, right, 1285 01:11:53,160 --> 01:11:54,800 Speaker 1: He's like, look if I'm going to put this all 1286 01:11:54,840 --> 01:11:56,720 Speaker 1: online and risk it. You at least got to make 1287 01:11:56,760 --> 01:11:59,799 Speaker 1: me king of the gods. Or he's just following operating 1288 01:11:59,800 --> 01:12:01,920 Speaker 1: for seizure, you know. Yeah maybe oh yeah, maybe he's 1289 01:12:01,920 --> 01:12:05,479 Speaker 1: a robot. Yeah, but yeah. So to think about this, 1290 01:12:05,520 --> 01:12:07,160 Speaker 1: you can think about it in a couple of ways 1291 01:12:07,160 --> 01:12:10,120 Speaker 1: in the brain. So, like, I want to start off 1292 01:12:10,160 --> 01:12:13,360 Speaker 1: by mentioning the amygdala, the you know, the little almond 1293 01:12:13,479 --> 01:12:17,599 Speaker 1: shaped subcortical brain network of the amygdalas sometimes referred to, 1294 01:12:18,479 --> 01:12:21,679 Speaker 1: I think not quite accurately as the brain's fear center 1295 01:12:21,960 --> 01:12:25,400 Speaker 1: or something like that. As usual with these kinds of appellations, 1296 01:12:25,400 --> 01:12:28,559 Speaker 1: that's a bit of an oversimplication. The brain's fear response 1297 01:12:28,640 --> 01:12:32,720 Speaker 1: is complex and it involves multiple brain regions, but there 1298 01:12:32,760 --> 01:12:35,880 Speaker 1: are multiple lines of evidence that indicate that the amygdala 1299 01:12:36,040 --> 01:12:39,599 Speaker 1: does appear to play some important role in fear. It's 1300 01:12:39,600 --> 01:12:44,200 Speaker 1: something it does something important in generating the physiological fear 1301 01:12:44,240 --> 01:12:48,639 Speaker 1: response in the body. For example, brain imaging studies show 1302 01:12:48,760 --> 01:12:53,160 Speaker 1: that fear inducing images like pictures of animals like spiders 1303 01:12:53,160 --> 01:12:56,920 Speaker 1: and snakes, trigger activation in the amygdala, but that the 1304 01:12:57,000 --> 01:13:01,040 Speaker 1: brain can also recruit other regions to inhibit a magdala response, 1305 01:13:01,280 --> 01:13:04,800 Speaker 1: which seems to be correlated with resistance to the fear response. 1306 01:13:05,479 --> 01:13:08,600 Speaker 1: Both animals and people with damage to amygdala's seemed to 1307 01:13:08,640 --> 01:13:11,479 Speaker 1: show a diminished sense of the fear response. Like One 1308 01:13:11,520 --> 01:13:14,320 Speaker 1: example is the classic case of patient s M I 1309 01:13:14,360 --> 01:13:18,000 Speaker 1: think we've talked about on the show so um famous 1310 01:13:18,040 --> 01:13:23,000 Speaker 1: case of a woman who experienced bilateral amygdala damage during childhood, 1311 01:13:23,479 --> 01:13:26,960 Speaker 1: and she shows very little, if any fear response in 1312 01:13:27,080 --> 01:13:31,040 Speaker 1: situations like haunted houses and stuff, and and in response 1313 01:13:31,120 --> 01:13:34,880 Speaker 1: to scary movies. She she just lacks a fear response 1314 01:13:34,960 --> 01:13:38,679 Speaker 1: that is very common among pretty much everybody else. Uh, 1315 01:13:38,680 --> 01:13:40,760 Speaker 1: And this seems to have something to do with the 1316 01:13:40,880 --> 01:13:44,960 Speaker 1: damage to her amygdala. Again, this does not necessarily mean 1317 01:13:45,000 --> 01:13:47,880 Speaker 1: that fear is quote in the amygdala, but it does 1318 01:13:47,920 --> 01:13:51,000 Speaker 1: indicate that the amygdala plays this important role in generating 1319 01:13:51,040 --> 01:13:54,280 Speaker 1: the threat avoidance behavior we associate with fear. So I mean, 1320 01:13:54,320 --> 01:13:57,920 Speaker 1: I wonder if you saw somebody who inspired you to 1321 01:13:57,960 --> 01:14:01,520 Speaker 1: tell a story of somebody like Hercules, Ease or Beowulf 1322 01:14:01,600 --> 01:14:05,800 Speaker 1: who was just fearless, not courageous, but fearless. Is this 1323 01:14:05,920 --> 01:14:08,639 Speaker 1: I wonder, is this inspired by the idea of somebody 1324 01:14:08,640 --> 01:14:10,800 Speaker 1: with the damage to Miguela You know, people who just 1325 01:14:10,880 --> 01:14:14,519 Speaker 1: don't even flinch in the face of something scary. I mean, well, 1326 01:14:14,520 --> 01:14:18,240 Speaker 1: we do have the you know, additional information about Hercules 1327 01:14:18,320 --> 01:14:22,720 Speaker 1: being driven mad and slaying his children. Oh yeah, I 1328 01:14:23,160 --> 01:14:27,520 Speaker 1: don't know. That doesn't that perhaps speaks to the possibility 1329 01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:33,160 Speaker 1: of additional neurological damage. I want to be clear, I'm 1330 01:14:33,200 --> 01:14:36,320 Speaker 1: not suggesting that Hercules is based on a historical figure 1331 01:14:36,439 --> 01:14:38,559 Speaker 1: or something like that. But I mean with all these 1332 01:14:38,800 --> 01:14:42,400 Speaker 1: kinds of stories, you wonder if somebody saw something that 1333 01:14:42,479 --> 01:14:45,480 Speaker 1: inspired the story or is it just pure creative imagination. 1334 01:14:45,520 --> 01:14:47,360 Speaker 1: It could be either one or you know, so you 1335 01:14:47,439 --> 01:14:50,600 Speaker 1: see something you or you're looking at somebody being courageous, 1336 01:14:51,040 --> 01:14:53,000 Speaker 1: and if all you see is the courageous act, you 1337 01:14:53,000 --> 01:14:56,040 Speaker 1: could well interpreted his fearlessness, like look at that guy, 1338 01:14:56,080 --> 01:14:58,679 Speaker 1: He's never afraid in his life. You're just not privy 1339 01:14:58,720 --> 01:15:01,320 Speaker 1: to the part where after he defeats the enemy, he 1340 01:15:01,360 --> 01:15:04,200 Speaker 1: goes back and like vomits and weeps in his tent 1341 01:15:04,640 --> 01:15:08,080 Speaker 1: because he's just been through this horrific experience. I mean, 1342 01:15:08,760 --> 01:15:10,600 Speaker 1: you know, we often talk about the monster slang is 1343 01:15:10,680 --> 01:15:13,320 Speaker 1: like this this this rite of passage for the hero. 1344 01:15:13,840 --> 01:15:17,120 Speaker 1: You know that it makes them um and this of course, 1345 01:15:17,160 --> 01:15:19,679 Speaker 1: reminds me of the you know, the line that which 1346 01:15:19,720 --> 01:15:23,719 Speaker 1: does not kill you almost kills you and is therefore 1347 01:15:23,840 --> 01:15:27,519 Speaker 1: inherently traumatic. Huh uh well, yeah, I mean that's the 1348 01:15:27,560 --> 01:15:30,920 Speaker 1: other model. Maybe it is that somebody saw somebody who 1349 01:15:30,960 --> 01:15:33,680 Speaker 1: was just being courageous and facing their fears, and they 1350 01:15:33,720 --> 01:15:37,080 Speaker 1: did it so well that people saw that and interpreted 1351 01:15:37,120 --> 01:15:39,960 Speaker 1: it as them being fearless, Like they couldn't even see 1352 01:15:40,000 --> 01:15:43,479 Speaker 1: through to what the person was feeling. Um, and so 1353 01:15:43,720 --> 01:15:45,559 Speaker 1: you know, I wonder, like what's going on in the 1354 01:15:45,600 --> 01:15:48,840 Speaker 1: brain with courage. There have actually been studies on this. Uh, 1355 01:15:48,880 --> 01:15:51,360 Speaker 1: there was one I was looking at by Uri Neely, 1356 01:15:51,760 --> 01:15:56,679 Speaker 1: Haggard Goldberg, Abraham Wiseman, and Yahdin do die in neuron 1357 01:15:56,840 --> 01:16:00,400 Speaker 1: in two Thousen called fear thou not activity of frontal 1358 01:16:00,439 --> 01:16:04,200 Speaker 1: and temporal circuits in moments of real life courage. So 1359 01:16:04,400 --> 01:16:06,479 Speaker 1: this is a snake on a trolley experiment. You know, 1360 01:16:06,560 --> 01:16:08,639 Speaker 1: you gotta love a good snake on a trolley experiment. 1361 01:16:08,640 --> 01:16:11,520 Speaker 1: You the trolley operator is the subject of the experiment. 1362 01:16:11,880 --> 01:16:14,200 Speaker 1: They're sitting down in an FMR I. So this is 1363 01:16:14,240 --> 01:16:16,760 Speaker 1: an fmr I study. You know, with all the caveats 1364 01:16:16,800 --> 01:16:20,440 Speaker 1: we know about some of these neuro imaging studies, assuming 1365 01:16:20,479 --> 01:16:23,320 Speaker 1: that their results are are are valid and useful. Here, 1366 01:16:23,560 --> 01:16:26,120 Speaker 1: the subject's goal is The subject's goal is to lay 1367 01:16:26,160 --> 01:16:28,400 Speaker 1: in the f m R I get the brain imaged 1368 01:16:28,720 --> 01:16:32,080 Speaker 1: while they are attempting to move a trolley with a 1369 01:16:32,160 --> 01:16:34,880 Speaker 1: snake on it as close as possible to their head 1370 01:16:35,240 --> 01:16:37,439 Speaker 1: so it's on a track and they can control it, 1371 01:16:37,640 --> 01:16:39,719 Speaker 1: and they're trying to get the snake close to them. 1372 01:16:40,240 --> 01:16:43,920 Speaker 1: And the researchers found that courage, overcoming fear and moving 1373 01:16:43,960 --> 01:16:47,120 Speaker 1: the snake closer to the head was associated with activity 1374 01:16:47,439 --> 01:16:50,960 Speaker 1: in the sub genual anterior singulate cortex or the s 1375 01:16:51,000 --> 01:16:54,400 Speaker 1: G A c C, and also in the right temporal 1376 01:16:54,479 --> 01:16:57,640 Speaker 1: poll and the author's right quote. Further, activity in the 1377 01:16:57,800 --> 01:17:00,439 Speaker 1: s G A c C was positively correl a did 1378 01:17:00,479 --> 01:17:03,880 Speaker 1: with the level of fear upon choosing to overcome fear, 1379 01:17:04,240 --> 01:17:07,120 Speaker 1: but not upon succumbing to it. So like you've got 1380 01:17:07,120 --> 01:17:09,719 Speaker 1: a lot of fear and you overcome it. You say 1381 01:17:09,760 --> 01:17:12,479 Speaker 1: like I'm really afraid, I'm terrified of snakes, but I'm 1382 01:17:12,479 --> 01:17:15,439 Speaker 1: gonna keep moving the snake closer to my head. That 1383 01:17:15,560 --> 01:17:18,640 Speaker 1: was positively correlated with more activity in this region the 1384 01:17:18,680 --> 01:17:22,720 Speaker 1: subgenual anterior singulate cortex. And so they finally say that 1385 01:17:22,760 --> 01:17:27,200 Speaker 1: the courage behavior seems to attenuate activity in the amygdala 1386 01:17:27,400 --> 01:17:31,000 Speaker 1: and other regions associated with fear response, and it inhibits 1387 01:17:31,320 --> 01:17:35,680 Speaker 1: the autonomic physiological fear response in that we normally have 1388 01:17:35,760 --> 01:17:39,720 Speaker 1: in response to fear inducing stimuli promoting the courage behavior. 1389 01:17:40,080 --> 01:17:43,800 Speaker 1: It's like when you experience courage, that is a process 1390 01:17:43,800 --> 01:17:45,960 Speaker 1: in the brain, and it's one part of the brain 1391 01:17:46,400 --> 01:17:49,719 Speaker 1: apparently inhibiting what would normally be going on in another 1392 01:17:49,760 --> 01:17:52,479 Speaker 1: part of the brain, saying shut that down. We're going 1393 01:17:52,520 --> 01:17:56,040 Speaker 1: to do it anyway. Now, another illuminating study this, this 1394 01:17:56,160 --> 01:17:59,240 Speaker 1: is one that that you found. Uh. This one comes 1395 01:17:59,280 --> 01:18:02,400 Speaker 1: said from the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 1396 01:18:02,960 --> 01:18:08,440 Speaker 1: from it's by mobs at All titled Neural activity associated 1397 01:18:08,479 --> 01:18:12,160 Speaker 1: with monitoring the oscillating threat value of a Tarantula. Okay, 1398 01:18:12,200 --> 01:18:15,720 Speaker 1: so we get another perhaps of phylogenetic threat here, right, 1399 01:18:15,920 --> 01:18:18,519 Speaker 1: And phylogenetic threats these are of course threats that are 1400 01:18:18,560 --> 01:18:21,519 Speaker 1: hardwired into his vo evolution, like we've been discussioning, discussing 1401 01:18:21,600 --> 01:18:24,719 Speaker 1: especially the fear of spiders and snakes. Assuming that's correct. 1402 01:18:25,560 --> 01:18:29,320 Speaker 1: So if I'm reading the study correctly, what the two 1403 01:18:29,320 --> 01:18:31,800 Speaker 1: thousand ten study is saying is that in their experiment, 1404 01:18:31,920 --> 01:18:34,600 Speaker 1: moving the object of fear, a tarantula, closer to the 1405 01:18:34,640 --> 01:18:37,840 Speaker 1: subject produced a cascade of fear responses in the brain, 1406 01:18:38,160 --> 01:18:42,799 Speaker 1: including activity in the amygdala quote associated with under prediction 1407 01:18:42,880 --> 01:18:47,200 Speaker 1: of the tarantula's threat value um UH. And by the way, 1408 01:18:47,200 --> 01:18:49,360 Speaker 1: one of the authors in the study that the main 1409 01:18:49,400 --> 01:18:52,920 Speaker 1: author here Dean Mobs, Assistant professor of cognitive neuroscience at 1410 01:18:52,920 --> 01:18:56,360 Speaker 1: cal Tech. He has a two thousand eighteen paper titled 1411 01:18:56,479 --> 01:19:01,000 Speaker 1: how cognitive and reactive fear circuits optimize escape A decisions 1412 01:19:01,000 --> 01:19:04,160 Speaker 1: in humans and it drives home how the brain responds 1413 01:19:04,200 --> 01:19:06,240 Speaker 1: to fear via or seems to respond to fear via 1414 01:19:06,320 --> 01:19:09,800 Speaker 1: two distinct fear circuits uh studied in the in this 1415 01:19:09,840 --> 01:19:13,519 Speaker 1: study via fm R I and a virtual predator video game. 1416 01:19:14,080 --> 01:19:19,320 Speaker 1: No connection to Dutch, This would be like a phylogenetic predator, right. 1417 01:19:20,479 --> 01:19:23,400 Speaker 1: So this is what what he lays out. We have 1418 01:19:23,439 --> 01:19:28,240 Speaker 1: the cognitive fear circuit. This is distant threats front brain regions, 1419 01:19:28,400 --> 01:19:32,360 Speaker 1: asserting risk and making decisions. This is a conscious exercise. 1420 01:19:32,960 --> 01:19:35,879 Speaker 1: And then there's the reactive fear circuit. This is a 1421 01:19:35,960 --> 01:19:39,559 Speaker 1: related to central brain structures. This is fight, flight or freeze. 1422 01:19:39,760 --> 01:19:43,800 Speaker 1: This is a subconscious respect response. So, in the words 1423 01:19:43,840 --> 01:19:46,920 Speaker 1: of Mobs quote, you don't think your way out of 1424 01:19:46,920 --> 01:19:49,719 Speaker 1: a tiger attack, all right, So yeah, if you stop 1425 01:19:49,800 --> 01:19:52,200 Speaker 1: to think when a tiger is assaulting you, you're debt. 1426 01:19:52,920 --> 01:19:56,400 Speaker 1: You react instead via the reactive fear circuit, which is 1427 01:19:56,439 --> 01:19:59,680 Speaker 1: subconscious and unthinking. Yeah. I mean, that's why fear is 1428 01:19:59,720 --> 01:20:05,840 Speaker 1: often characterized as like a sort of involuntary physiological body response, 1429 01:20:05,960 --> 01:20:10,439 Speaker 1: not just like the thought I am afraid. Yeah, like this, 1430 01:20:10,600 --> 01:20:12,920 Speaker 1: I couldn't help but think about this in terms of flying. 1431 01:20:13,080 --> 01:20:15,240 Speaker 1: With one of our other episodes this month, we talked 1432 01:20:15,280 --> 01:20:17,479 Speaker 1: a little bit about the fear flying, and there is 1433 01:20:17,520 --> 01:20:22,240 Speaker 1: a distinct difference between the fear one will have on 1434 01:20:22,280 --> 01:20:26,439 Speaker 1: the plane and the fear one has um the day 1435 01:20:26,479 --> 01:20:29,120 Speaker 1: before the flight or a different day before, the day 1436 01:20:29,160 --> 01:20:32,680 Speaker 1: before the flighty um. So, you know, I wonder to 1437 01:20:32,720 --> 01:20:35,000 Speaker 1: what extent we might apply this model to where our 1438 01:20:35,040 --> 01:20:38,839 Speaker 1: monster slaying heroes men or more mostly men of action 1439 01:20:38,920 --> 01:20:43,000 Speaker 1: and reaction. So sometimes they plan, uh, certainly, But but 1440 01:20:43,120 --> 01:20:45,200 Speaker 1: but the planning is again oftentimes the work of a 1441 01:20:45,240 --> 01:20:48,960 Speaker 1: god or goddess. And I can't imagine, I can't help 1442 01:20:48,960 --> 01:20:51,320 Speaker 1: but imagine what Julian Jane so I would have would 1443 01:20:51,320 --> 01:20:52,920 Speaker 1: have said about all this, the kind of funny would 1444 01:20:52,920 --> 01:20:54,760 Speaker 1: have would have had with this I was looking around. 1445 01:20:54,800 --> 01:20:57,280 Speaker 1: I'm not sure that he ever really tackled monsters and 1446 01:20:57,360 --> 01:21:01,680 Speaker 1: monsters slang specifically, but he was very interested in the 1447 01:21:02,000 --> 01:21:04,719 Speaker 1: role between of course heroes and gods. Well, yeah, certainly, 1448 01:21:04,760 --> 01:21:06,760 Speaker 1: I mean what we're saying here, if we're assuming that 1449 01:21:06,800 --> 01:21:09,640 Speaker 1: Mobs is correct about this, that you've got the cognitive 1450 01:21:09,640 --> 01:21:12,840 Speaker 1: fear circuit and the reactive fear circuit, I'm sure James 1451 01:21:12,840 --> 01:21:15,320 Speaker 1: would have imagined that as like, you know, the automatic 1452 01:21:15,400 --> 01:21:19,479 Speaker 1: unconscious brain circuit and then the like the god fear circuit. Yeah, 1453 01:21:19,760 --> 01:21:21,840 Speaker 1: like did to give you an idea everyone, an idea 1454 01:21:21,840 --> 01:21:23,680 Speaker 1: of like what he might have said about this kind 1455 01:21:23,680 --> 01:21:26,280 Speaker 1: of thing. He did touch on fear and terror in 1456 01:21:26,280 --> 01:21:31,240 Speaker 1: his nine essay Remembrance of Things Far Past. He said, 1457 01:21:31,280 --> 01:21:35,000 Speaker 1: quote fear and terror, once easily dissipated, stretch out into 1458 01:21:35,040 --> 01:21:38,400 Speaker 1: anxiety that can last a lifetime. And all because men 1459 01:21:38,520 --> 01:21:42,439 Speaker 1: can now automatically, and even against their wishes, reconstruct and 1460 01:21:42,600 --> 01:21:47,200 Speaker 1: hold as if present in this new spatialized time, the 1461 01:21:47,320 --> 01:21:52,280 Speaker 1: unalterable experience of the past and its possibility in the future. Now, 1462 01:21:52,280 --> 01:21:55,400 Speaker 1: of course that's James playing with the bicameral model. Obviously, 1463 01:21:55,479 --> 01:21:58,120 Speaker 1: you don't need to accept the bicameral model to see 1464 01:21:58,160 --> 01:22:01,599 Speaker 1: that there's something interesting going on humans. You know, you 1465 01:22:01,720 --> 01:22:07,640 Speaker 1: don't get the sense that most animals experience anxiety in 1466 01:22:07,720 --> 01:22:10,479 Speaker 1: quite the same way humans do they. I mean, you 1467 01:22:10,479 --> 01:22:12,360 Speaker 1: can't know for sure, but you don't get the sense 1468 01:22:12,400 --> 01:22:16,920 Speaker 1: that they are like cognitively working over their fear scenarios 1469 01:22:17,000 --> 01:22:19,400 Speaker 1: the way we do, right, I mean, I don't know. 1470 01:22:19,400 --> 01:22:21,559 Speaker 1: I guess there's something to be said for certainly cases 1471 01:22:21,640 --> 01:22:26,519 Speaker 1: say zukosis, where an animal is uh is behaving abnormally 1472 01:22:26,560 --> 01:22:28,919 Speaker 1: because it is in captivity, where it's kind of undergoing 1473 01:22:28,960 --> 01:22:33,400 Speaker 1: a continuous challenge to its mental stability, I guess. But 1474 01:22:33,400 --> 01:22:36,200 Speaker 1: but yeah, I think it's it's safe to say that 1475 01:22:36,439 --> 01:22:39,479 Speaker 1: that animals process things these things differently. There's definitely a 1476 01:22:39,640 --> 01:22:43,040 Speaker 1: human dimension to the way we deal with threats, in 1477 01:22:43,040 --> 01:22:46,400 Speaker 1: the way we respond mentally to them. And it's interesting 1478 01:22:46,439 --> 01:22:49,439 Speaker 1: the way so many of these stories we've talked about 1479 01:22:49,600 --> 01:22:53,000 Speaker 1: show different people reacting to the threat in different ways, 1480 01:22:53,040 --> 01:22:55,200 Speaker 1: like the story of St. George and the Dragon. First, 1481 01:22:55,240 --> 01:22:57,439 Speaker 1: the villagers go out to fight the dragon, but then 1482 01:22:57,479 --> 01:23:00,400 Speaker 1: they can't overcome their fear and they're forced to run away. 1483 01:23:00,840 --> 01:23:02,800 Speaker 1: You know, they think they can fight it, but then 1484 01:23:02,840 --> 01:23:04,639 Speaker 1: their fear gets the better of them and we see 1485 01:23:04,640 --> 01:23:08,360 Speaker 1: who they really are and they're they're driven back. But St. 1486 01:23:08,360 --> 01:23:10,680 Speaker 1: George has the courage, and he has the you know, 1487 01:23:10,760 --> 01:23:12,960 Speaker 1: he has Christ on his side. A similar thing I 1488 01:23:13,000 --> 01:23:15,080 Speaker 1: think with mar Duke, right, you know, the other gods 1489 01:23:15,080 --> 01:23:20,280 Speaker 1: were too afraid to fight Timat, but Marduke overcame his fear, Yeah, 1490 01:23:20,320 --> 01:23:23,040 Speaker 1: and did. To come back to to Mob's division of 1491 01:23:23,080 --> 01:23:25,559 Speaker 1: the two responses, I can't help but wonder of our 1492 01:23:25,600 --> 01:23:30,519 Speaker 1: monster slaying heroes are models of our ideal reactive fear 1493 01:23:30,600 --> 01:23:34,160 Speaker 1: network self. So as we engage with our cognitive fear 1494 01:23:34,240 --> 01:23:37,879 Speaker 1: network to anticipate threats in the natural world, we ruminate 1495 01:23:37,920 --> 01:23:41,320 Speaker 1: on the model and symbol of these embodiments of just 1496 01:23:41,360 --> 01:23:46,400 Speaker 1: like pure ideal subconscious reaction, you know, just pure monster 1497 01:23:46,560 --> 01:23:50,960 Speaker 1: not only monster slayers, but monster destroyers. Yeah, Like you 1498 01:23:51,000 --> 01:23:54,120 Speaker 1: have you ever played with that scenario? Um? You know, 1499 01:23:54,200 --> 01:23:57,080 Speaker 1: what would I do if there was like somebody attacking 1500 01:23:57,120 --> 01:23:59,080 Speaker 1: me or something like that. You know, you'd like to 1501 01:23:59,160 --> 01:24:01,720 Speaker 1: imagine like, oh I do this and that you know, 1502 01:24:01,800 --> 01:24:04,679 Speaker 1: I'd i'd be strong, and i'd be smart, and i'd 1503 01:24:04,680 --> 01:24:07,479 Speaker 1: be brave. But then, like when that really happens to people, 1504 01:24:07,520 --> 01:24:10,400 Speaker 1: you know, the cower and fear, and like you, it's 1505 01:24:10,439 --> 01:24:13,679 Speaker 1: a thing that you can't even know what you would do. 1506 01:24:13,840 --> 01:24:15,920 Speaker 1: You can hope you would be one way, but you 1507 01:24:15,960 --> 01:24:19,880 Speaker 1: can't know until it happens because these involuntary processes take over. 1508 01:24:19,920 --> 01:24:22,439 Speaker 1: So yeah, so you're saying like that, we're trying to 1509 01:24:22,520 --> 01:24:26,559 Speaker 1: imagine the way we hope we would be when those 1510 01:24:27,240 --> 01:24:31,080 Speaker 1: automatic processes take over and just guide your action without 1511 01:24:31,120 --> 01:24:34,400 Speaker 1: you thinking about it, and maybe to a certain extent, 1512 01:24:34,479 --> 01:24:38,280 Speaker 1: were even actively saying, let me be Beowulf when the 1513 01:24:38,320 --> 01:24:42,519 Speaker 1: time comes. Hum well, and I can't help but wonder 1514 01:24:42,600 --> 01:24:47,360 Speaker 1: if having fictional models makes it more likely. Yeah, that's possible. 1515 01:24:47,400 --> 01:24:49,360 Speaker 1: I don't know. Let me be the Hulk when the 1516 01:24:49,400 --> 01:24:52,040 Speaker 1: time comes, you know. Yeah, like if you've if you've 1517 01:24:52,080 --> 01:24:54,840 Speaker 1: had a model that you can picture in your mind, 1518 01:24:54,880 --> 01:24:57,519 Speaker 1: does it make it more likely that you will actually 1519 01:24:57,560 --> 01:25:01,840 Speaker 1: act that way? I don't know, but it's uh, that's 1520 01:25:01,880 --> 01:25:05,840 Speaker 1: interesting food for thought. Uh. Either way, there there there 1521 01:25:05,920 --> 01:25:08,960 Speaker 1: is truth to the matter that that when when the 1522 01:25:09,720 --> 01:25:13,080 Speaker 1: terror comes, when the monster comes, we don't know unless 1523 01:25:13,080 --> 01:25:16,640 Speaker 1: we've rehearsed for it, like actively, not mentally, but like physically. 1524 01:25:17,240 --> 01:25:20,040 Speaker 1: You know, we probably don't have a clear idea of 1525 01:25:20,040 --> 01:25:22,320 Speaker 1: how we will respond. You know, we have our our 1526 01:25:22,880 --> 01:25:26,400 Speaker 1: our intentions and our hopes regarding our response, but maybe 1527 01:25:26,400 --> 01:25:30,040 Speaker 1: we haven't actually been tested yet. I'm reminded of a 1528 01:25:30,080 --> 01:25:33,680 Speaker 1: quote from Hunter S. Thompson, uh specifically the lyrics he 1529 01:25:33,720 --> 01:25:36,120 Speaker 1: wrote for a Warren Zevon song of the of the 1530 01:25:36,160 --> 01:25:38,960 Speaker 1: same name, where he said, quote, you're a whole different 1531 01:25:39,000 --> 01:25:43,880 Speaker 1: person when you're scared, and so you're saying you want 1532 01:25:43,920 --> 01:25:45,840 Speaker 1: to know what that person is going to be, like, 1533 01:25:46,120 --> 01:25:50,080 Speaker 1: maybe they can be like Hercules exactly. Yeah, that's why. Yeah, 1534 01:25:50,080 --> 01:25:52,400 Speaker 1: I'm going to picture Hercules in my mind and hopefully 1535 01:25:52,600 --> 01:25:54,479 Speaker 1: maybe that is what the gods will make of me 1536 01:25:54,560 --> 01:25:57,320 Speaker 1: when the time comes. So I didn't find a study 1537 01:25:57,400 --> 01:25:59,240 Speaker 1: like this, but I would be kind of surprised if 1538 01:25:59,240 --> 01:26:02,240 Speaker 1: there isn't one somewhere out there, a study of like, 1539 01:26:02,640 --> 01:26:07,120 Speaker 1: does thinking about monster slayers or heroes of any kind 1540 01:26:07,439 --> 01:26:10,960 Speaker 1: make you more courageous? Do do the snake trolley test again, 1541 01:26:11,760 --> 01:26:14,240 Speaker 1: but just like see if there's any difference when you 1542 01:26:14,320 --> 01:26:17,200 Speaker 1: like prime people beforehand with the story of a monster 1543 01:26:17,280 --> 01:26:21,160 Speaker 1: slayer or something. Be got to watch season two of Buffy. Yeah, 1544 01:26:21,439 --> 01:26:26,759 Speaker 1: prior to uh handling the snake trolley. Yeah. Maybe, so 1545 01:26:26,760 --> 01:26:30,160 Speaker 1: so you're season two guy? Huh? Well, I mean season 1546 01:26:30,160 --> 01:26:33,760 Speaker 1: one is necessary. I love the Master um. But even 1547 01:26:33,800 --> 01:26:35,680 Speaker 1: as I was watching it, people were like, you just 1548 01:26:35,680 --> 01:26:37,559 Speaker 1: gotta press on three season one and get to season 1549 01:26:37,640 --> 01:26:40,880 Speaker 1: two and then yeah from from there, From from there on, 1550 01:26:41,000 --> 01:26:44,680 Speaker 1: it's it's gravy. I'd go season three. Yeah, yeah, that's 1551 01:26:44,720 --> 01:26:47,920 Speaker 1: where it really like, that's the Mayor season. Oh, the 1552 01:26:47,920 --> 01:26:50,880 Speaker 1: Mayor is good. I forgot about the Mayor. Yeah. I 1553 01:26:50,920 --> 01:26:52,920 Speaker 1: need to rewatch some of them. I'm not going to 1554 01:26:53,000 --> 01:26:54,519 Speaker 1: say all of them, but I do. I should go 1555 01:26:54,560 --> 01:26:58,120 Speaker 1: back and rewatch some of There's some great episodes in there. Yeah. Alright. 1556 01:26:58,160 --> 01:27:01,400 Speaker 1: So there you have it, the monster slayer, monsters and 1557 01:27:01,479 --> 01:27:05,120 Speaker 1: the fabulous slayers who slay them. Uh. This was a 1558 01:27:05,120 --> 01:27:07,320 Speaker 1: fun one to put together. Obviously, we couldn't look at 1559 01:27:07,360 --> 01:27:12,040 Speaker 1: every amazing monster slay myth or legend or modern interpretation 1560 01:27:12,120 --> 01:27:15,000 Speaker 1: out there. There's just so much good stuff. Hey, send us, 1561 01:27:15,360 --> 01:27:18,160 Speaker 1: send us your favorite monster slayer stories, and I want 1562 01:27:18,160 --> 01:27:20,479 Speaker 1: to hear more of those, especially the ones you hear 1563 01:27:20,560 --> 01:27:23,439 Speaker 1: less often, especially ones with great female monster slayers. I 1564 01:27:23,439 --> 01:27:25,800 Speaker 1: want to know more of those stories for sure. I 1565 01:27:25,800 --> 01:27:27,720 Speaker 1: should also point out there there were some There are 1566 01:27:27,760 --> 01:27:30,400 Speaker 1: some really good ones that I ran across in um 1567 01:27:30,560 --> 01:27:34,400 Speaker 1: Native American traditions that time will include here. But maybe 1568 01:27:34,400 --> 01:27:35,960 Speaker 1: that's something we can do again in the future if 1569 01:27:35,960 --> 01:27:39,479 Speaker 1: everyone really digs a good monster slayer tale. Yeah, there 1570 01:27:39,520 --> 01:27:42,759 Speaker 1: there's some good ones there all right. In the meantime, 1571 01:27:42,800 --> 01:27:44,439 Speaker 1: head on over to stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 1572 01:27:44,439 --> 01:27:47,720 Speaker 1: That's where we'll find all the podcast episodes, uh, as 1573 01:27:47,760 --> 01:27:49,920 Speaker 1: well as just a lot of extra monster content, a 1574 01:27:49,920 --> 01:27:52,960 Speaker 1: whole bunch of monster blogs that I wrote over the years, UH, 1575 01:27:53,040 --> 01:27:56,479 Speaker 1: some Monster Science videos. Links out to our social media 1576 01:27:56,479 --> 01:27:59,320 Speaker 1: accounts like Facebook and Twitter and Instagram, as well as 1577 01:27:59,320 --> 01:28:01,800 Speaker 1: a link for our door go check that out. A 1578 01:28:01,800 --> 01:28:04,200 Speaker 1: great way to support the show is to buy some 1579 01:28:04,240 --> 01:28:07,240 Speaker 1: of that merchandise. We have one related to release a 1580 01:28:07,280 --> 01:28:10,559 Speaker 1: recent episode on the basilisk. You can check that out. 1581 01:28:10,600 --> 01:28:11,880 Speaker 1: And if you want to support the show in a 1582 01:28:11,880 --> 01:28:14,280 Speaker 1: way that doesn't cost you any money, just rate and 1583 01:28:14,320 --> 01:28:16,559 Speaker 1: review us wherever you have the power to do so. 1584 01:28:17,000 --> 01:28:20,839 Speaker 1: Huge thanks as always to our wonderful audio producers. Alex Williams, 1585 01:28:20,880 --> 01:28:23,240 Speaker 1: and Tarry Harrison. If you'd like to get in touch 1586 01:28:23,280 --> 01:28:25,879 Speaker 1: with us directly, let us know feedback on this episode 1587 01:28:25,960 --> 01:28:28,479 Speaker 1: or any other, to suggest a topic for the future, 1588 01:28:28,720 --> 01:28:32,040 Speaker 1: to let us know about your favorite monster slayer, or 1589 01:28:32,479 --> 01:28:34,360 Speaker 1: just to say hi, let us know how you found 1590 01:28:34,360 --> 01:28:36,280 Speaker 1: out about the show where you listen from. You can 1591 01:28:36,320 --> 01:28:39,559 Speaker 1: email us at blow the Mind at how stuff works 1592 01:28:39,680 --> 01:28:51,799 Speaker 1: dot com. Well more on this and thousands of other topics. 1593 01:28:52,040 --> 01:29:09,640 Speaker 1: Is it how stuff works dot com. The Four Foo