WEBVTT - The Ethics of Piracy 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:02.880 Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera. 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:09.000 It's ready. Are you get in touch with technology? With 0:00:09.080 --> 0:00:17.800 tech Stuff from how stuff works dot com. Hello, everyone, 0:00:17.840 --> 0:00:20.239 welcome to tech stuff. My name is Chris Poulette and 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:22.840 I am an editor here at how stuff works dot Com. 0:00:22.840 --> 0:00:25.919 Sitting across from me as always a senior writer, Jonathan Strickland. 0:00:26.120 --> 0:00:30.120 The code is more what you'd call guidelines and actual rules, 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:39.120 Parley Poley. Um. That actually leads us directly into a 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:46.199 little Facebook feedback. That's a thing, well it could have. 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:50.720 It's not listener mail our Facebook. So I heard it 0:00:50.720 --> 0:00:52.760 that way everymore. Yeah, I just made it up. So 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:57.960 Facebook feedback lots of fs and that. Uh. This listener 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:00.840 mail comes to us from home. Ecebook feedback comes to 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:04.080 us from someone whose name I can't pronounce because my 0:01:04.440 --> 0:01:09.720 pronunciation for names and Indian languages is terrible. But I'm 0:01:09.720 --> 0:01:11.520 going to give it a shot and he can write 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:13.959 to me on Facebook and tell me how wrong I 0:01:14.000 --> 0:01:17.800 got it. On Tricks says Hey, I've got an awesome 0:01:17.840 --> 0:01:22.000 podcast idea, the ethics of pirating media. You have already bought. Well, 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:24.440 if I'm not that clear, here's an example, you buy 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:27.120 a music CD and you travel somewhere. You had the 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:30.840 music from the CD on your computer, but you accidentally 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:33.600 deleted it. Is it right to download the music from 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:37.960 an illegal source? Maybe torrents? Downloading without purchasing is illegal anyway, 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:41.399 but people argue that this is ethically right. I'm one 0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:43.399 of them too. You could read this as a listener 0:01:43.400 --> 0:01:47.640 mail and you can mention my name too. I tried. UM. 0:01:47.720 --> 0:01:51.360 So we're gonna talk about piracy ethics. You know, when 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:54.000 is it is it ever all right to download something 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:57.240 uh for free? You know, whether you've purchased it or 0:01:57.280 --> 0:01:59.920 haven't purchased it, and sort of the issues that surround 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:03.280 this and make it more complicated than you might first imagine. 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:09.040 So let's get started, shall we. Yes, Now it does 0:02:09.120 --> 0:02:14.080 become more complicated as you start uh crossing international boundaries. 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:16.840 This is uh. If it was a piece of music 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:20.799 recorded and save Britain, UH and you were in Germany 0:02:21.000 --> 0:02:23.760 when you had your files deleted and you wanted to 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:27.760 download them, uh, it makes things even more complicated. Unfortunately, 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:31.440 well fortunately and unfortunately for the pirates. I suppose, UM, 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:36.040 there are treaties in between these different countries, including those 0:02:36.160 --> 0:02:42.679 but around the World Intellectual Property Organization or Weepoh wow, Yeah, 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:47.000 I I focused mainly on the United States because that's, 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:49.480 for one thing, is the easiest for me to get 0:02:49.520 --> 0:02:52.919 information on in a language that I can read. Yes, 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:56.119 that is our sphere of operation, of course, so it's 0:02:56.240 --> 0:02:59.000 a little easier for us. But you know, on tricks, 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:01.839 we do know from his frequent feedback on Facebook. Hey, 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:05.320 that's lots of alliteration there. Um does live in India, 0:03:06.000 --> 0:03:08.800 so you know, he might have a different perspective than 0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:12.600 the media. Right. But in the United States, copyright law 0:03:13.200 --> 0:03:17.560 as it stands is already fairly complicated. Yes, okay, So 0:03:17.760 --> 0:03:22.800 in general, a work created on or after January one, 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:28.160 nineteen seventy eight has a copyright that will last through 0:03:28.240 --> 0:03:33.239 the duration of the author's life plus seventy years. Yes, 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:39.600 before January one, ninety eight is more complicated. Um. And 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:42.880 also you could, uh, from the ones from before then, 0:03:43.200 --> 0:03:49.280 corporations and authors had the opportunity to extend copyright further 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:52.480 if they wanted to, which could not bring it up 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:54.520 to the same amount of time as if it were 0:03:55.320 --> 0:04:01.000 created after nine. But it's it's complex. So, uh, what 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:04.600 copyright allows you to do? Is it it allows you 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:11.720 to dictate how how your your content can be purchased 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:16.760 and distributed. Uh. So let's say that I create an idea, 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:20.279 I've got it under copyright. What I choose to do 0:04:20.400 --> 0:04:23.560 with that content, that content belongs to me, and I 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:27.599 can license it out to people as I see fit. Uh, 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:30.680 that's really a lot of the arguments I see kind 0:04:30.720 --> 0:04:33.880 of ignore this whole licensing issue, which is to me 0:04:34.120 --> 0:04:36.720 right at the very heart of the problem. But UM, 0:04:38.440 --> 0:04:40.120 go ahead, you're better to say something. Yeah, well, I 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:43.120 was just going to say, at least in the United States. UM, 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:47.400 let's say you're an author and you're writing a book. Well, 0:04:47.440 --> 0:04:50.159 as soon as you finish it and you you've you've 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:52.400 you know, say, printed it out, it's in a fixed 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:56.920 form and you're done with it. Copyright already is protecting 0:04:57.160 --> 0:05:00.000 that work in the United States. As soon as they 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:02.720 exists in a fixed form, it is under copyright. You 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:05.560 are the copyright holder. Um. You do not have to 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:08.960 file paperwork for it, although for some protection it does 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:11.920 help you to do that. Um, but you've already got 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:14.600 it. It It starts right then and there. Now, say you 0:05:14.640 --> 0:05:16.800 want to have your work published. You'd like to see 0:05:16.800 --> 0:05:18.960 your name in print. You want to go on tour 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:20.840 and do book signings. This is the dream that you've 0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:23.600 always been wanting to pursue. Well, you're going to need 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:25.719 a publisher to help you with that. You could self 0:05:25.800 --> 0:05:28.240 publish it, but you're still you know, unless you happen 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:31.040 to own a printing press, it's gonna be hard to distribute. Yeah, 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:33.720 you're you're you're going to want some kind of publishing 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:37.080 help with it. So let's say, uh, let's let's say 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:40.239 you're really interested in having somebody like Random House publish 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:42.920 your work, and so you submit it and they're they're 0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:44.840 gaga over the whole thing. They love it, they love 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:47.480 the idea. They want to print it. But you're going 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:50.360 to have to license the copyright to them in order 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:51.680 to do that, and you're going to sign a long 0:05:52.120 --> 0:05:56.640 agreement that allows them to be the publisher to do that, 0:05:56.720 --> 0:06:00.760 and so you're basically giving them access to or copyright 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:05.680 if you will. So at that point, um, making unauthorized 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:08.520 copies affects the company too, and not just you as 0:06:08.560 --> 0:06:12.760 the author, right, And then we have to kind of 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:15.880 address something that's there's a lot of confusion around this 0:06:15.920 --> 0:06:21.320 as well. The concept of fair use. Fair use definitely 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:24.960 has its place, but unfortunately or fortunately, depending on which 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:27.080 side of the argument you happen to be on at 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:32.560 any given time, it's not firmly defined. In general, fair 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:36.640 use allows a couple for a couple of different um 0:06:36.640 --> 0:06:40.280 exceptions to the whole copyright issue. One is, if you 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:45.120 are using material for educational purposes and you are commenting 0:06:45.160 --> 0:06:48.839 on it, or you are um, you know, using it 0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:52.520 to illustrate a point, you are allowed to use a 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:57.279 certain amount of information without it being considered a violation 0:06:57.320 --> 0:07:01.320 of copyright. However, that certain amount is up for discussion. 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:05.520 There's no there's no clear definition. There's no like two 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:09.000 paragraphs is the limit and over to paragraphs is copyright 0:07:09.080 --> 0:07:13.520 violation or is the utmost limit you can go to. 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:17.200 There's nothing set in stone. It ends up being a 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:20.120 case by case basis. Right, if you're going to use 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:23.760 a portion of someone else's work in your own and 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:28.800 the person who's copyright uh is in question, uh, you know, 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:31.600 feels that is being infringed upon, they take you to court. 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:34.840 It is ultimately going to be up to the judge 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:38.000 to decide, you know, how much is being used and 0:07:38.040 --> 0:07:40.880 for what purpose? If it it relies on a couple 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:43.040 of things. It needs to be transformative. So if you've, 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:47.440 for example, weird al Yankovic takes songs that are already 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:51.480 um popular and will remake them into a parody. Often 0:07:51.520 --> 0:07:54.240 puts it in a different key, and rewrites new lyrics 0:07:54.280 --> 0:07:57.040 to it, and makes subtle changes to the song to 0:07:57.120 --> 0:07:59.320 make it his own. But it's essentially a song that 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:03.200 is recognized old people. Parody is protected. Parody is protected, 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:06.280 but it is what he has done is transformed the 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:09.200 original work and and put it under a parody. So 0:08:09.360 --> 0:08:13.480 he's okay with that. Now, if you took an entire 0:08:13.520 --> 0:08:17.200 poet's poem and used it in your work and claimed 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:20.520 it was your own, then you're probably gonna get in trouble, 0:08:20.760 --> 0:08:24.680 right Or if you if you end up writing a 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:27.800 an essay, let's say that makes the exact same point 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:31.800 as the essay that you are using to illustrate your point, 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:34.880 there might be an argument there that that's just plagiarism 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:38.480 and copyright violation, that you're not you're not using this 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:41.880 in a new way of or or really using it 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:45.000 to educate or illustrate. You're just borrowing someone else's stuff, 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:50.440 and uh, and using it as part of your own material. Um, 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:53.679 but you can also make copies of things that you 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:56.320 purchase intellectual property. Essentially, you can make copies of I 0:08:56.440 --> 0:09:00.720 P for archival purposes. Yes, Now that means that, let's 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:04.120 say that you bought this really came about, especially back 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:07.679 with during the whole vinyl album and cassette era, and 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:10.560 say that you would buy a vinyl album. Kids, if 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:12.480 you don't know what that is, actually probably do because 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:14.680 they're kind of coming back with the whole DJ stuff. 0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:17.120 But that in our our tech stuff audience is probably 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:20.080 into that anyway. Yeah, but but you might want to 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:24.199 make a copy of that because this is physical medium, 0:09:24.240 --> 0:09:28.640 and media can sustain damage and wear and tear over time, 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:31.080 and you still want to be able to listen to 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:36.359 that content after that media has died out or perhaps 0:09:36.400 --> 0:09:39.119 perhaps even it gets to a point where the equipment 0:09:39.160 --> 0:09:43.400 you have that can play that media no longer works, right, 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:47.600 So you want to be able to create an archival copy. Now, 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:50.120 this is a copy for your own personal use. It's 0:09:50.160 --> 0:09:54.480 something that you're keeping so that you can again maintain uh, 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:58.160 the ability to access that material that the license that 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:01.840 you have essentially purchased to that material for a while 0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:05.880 that in the United States that became really pretty much 0:10:05.880 --> 0:10:10.960 impossible to do with legally, right because companies were putting 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:15.800 DRM on top of UH of their physical media like 0:10:16.000 --> 0:10:19.680 let's say c d s or DVDs, and in order 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:21.640 to be able to create a copy, you had to 0:10:21.720 --> 0:10:26.760 break the d r M, right, But breaking the DRM 0:10:26.880 --> 0:10:30.560 was illegal, So even though it wasn't illegal to make 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:34.600 the copy, it was illegal to break the protection that 0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:38.280 prevents you from making a copy. So in effect, it 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:40.880 became illegal for you to make a copy because there's 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:43.960 no legal way to get around it. Yeah, now it's 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:46.000 not going to come as any big shock to any 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:51.439 of our listeners that the world of computer technology has 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:57.520 completely changed, uh the need for copyright protection in the 0:10:57.520 --> 0:11:00.520 eyes of people who own copyright. Now, I mean, you 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:04.800 had a six page book, you know, in eighty two. 0:11:04.960 --> 0:11:07.400 The only way anybody was going to make a copy 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:10.079 of that was my hand and that right then and 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:12.640 there is going to be a deterrent to most people 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:14.480 to make another copy of the book now. I mean, 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:17.360 obviously the the printer is going to have the printing 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:19.120 press and be able to make more copies of it, 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:23.480 and you could do that Um, but it's not like 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:25.760 everybody on the street is going to be able to 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:28.439 do that. Now that everyone has a computer and it's 0:11:28.480 --> 0:11:31.680 easy to make copies of let's say, for for the 0:11:31.679 --> 0:11:35.120 purposes of this particular part of the conversation, unprotected anything 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:40.720 that's unprotected like electronic books, digital music files, digital video files. 0:11:41.040 --> 0:11:44.640 I mean, if there were no protection at all, Uh, 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:47.200 it would be easy to you know, rip new copies 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:49.840 of that and give them to everybody you knew, distribute 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:52.400 them on the internet freely and amount of seconds. In fact, 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:55.360 that happens all the time. Sure, sure, So DRM is 0:11:55.360 --> 0:11:58.640 in is digital rights management is an attempt on the 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:00.760 part of the copyright owners and the publishers of that 0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:03.840 content who have a stake in it too, now that 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:07.480 they have a license to to produce and distribute the content. Um, 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:09.440 it is an attempt for them to protect it and 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:14.000 to get people to actually fork over the money for it. Um. 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:19.440 The thing is they have also pushed government in general 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:23.600 and multiple countries to help them do that by lobbying 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:29.240 intensely for very thorough and someone to just say, you know, 0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:33.719 draconian measures that help them protect their d r M 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:37.080 and leave it in place. Which is what the which 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:41.480 is what's often used in conjunction with the Digital Millennium 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:44.640 Copyright Act here in the United States. Yeah, d m 0:12:44.679 --> 0:12:47.640 c A. You've probably heard that term before, especially if 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:49.800 you live in the United States. That's that's what I 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:51.640 was talking about with the d m c A, where 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:55.640 it made it a criminal act to try and either 0:12:55.880 --> 0:13:01.319 bypass DRM on a DRM product or to create software 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:05.720 or some other tool that would allow you to bypass DRM. 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:09.800 So if you created a tool that would break d 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:12.920 r M and UH, and even if you had never 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:15.800 done it yourself, like if you never created a file, 0:13:16.440 --> 0:13:21.200 just creating that tool was illegal under d m c A. Yes. Now, 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:23.240 of course, the entertainment industry in the United States is 0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:26.000 very very big and very very powerful. UM. The d 0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:29.000 m c A was signed into UH into law on 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:33.800 enter by President Bill Clinton UM, and it did bring 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:37.360 the United States into compliance with two different w I 0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:43.000 p O treatise UM, which UH basically is the w 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:45.199 y p O Copyright Treaty and then w I p 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:48.520 O Performances and Phonograms Treaty. Now, everybody who's all the 0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:52.680 countries that are are on board with these treaties UM 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:56.400 have an obligation to protect copyright from on things from 0:13:56.400 --> 0:14:00.040 other countries just as much as they would anything that 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:02.960 was copyrighted in their own country. So um, if somebody 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:10.160 in Russia wanted to uh copy and distribute Madonna's latest album, um, 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:12.520 and Russia has signed onto the w I p O treaty, 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:15.800 they are at the government is legally obligated to protect 0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:17.719 it as though it was somebody a Russian artist who 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:21.640 had also recorded and released an album in its own country. 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:24.600 Right now, let's get even more complicated with this whole 0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:28.480 digital media. So okay, so we've already established the idea 0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:34.400 that creating digital copies from physical media can be uh well, 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:36.560 depending on the exceptions. Also because d m c A 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:39.320 does have some exceptions that that tend to get in 0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:42.920 introduced every three years or so. But um, but creating 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:47.080 digital copies of physical media can be difficult and in 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:52.520 some cases illegal because you have to violate the DRM. 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:55.160 Another reason why this is a complicated issue is that 0:14:55.880 --> 0:14:59.160 it's hard to wrap your mind around stealing a digital 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:02.720 five because really what you're doing is you're creating another 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:09.320 instance of that file. Yeah, you're not taking anything from someone. 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:13.960 For example, if I own an album that Chris wants, 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:18.760 so we're gonna call it, um let's see the Ramones 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:21.480 Greatest hits. Let's say I've got the Ramones Grace Hits 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:24.280 on vinyl and Chris is thinking, you know, I'd really 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:27.160 like to listen to Blitz Creek Pop. And Jonathan's not looking. 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:30.320 I'm gonna take that album and he takes the album 0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:33.080 out of my house. Well, I no longer can listen 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:36.240 to the Ramones Grace Hits because my copy has been 0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:41.080 a student. But let's say that I have the album 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:43.680 in digital file format on my computer and Chris says, 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:45.240 you know, I want to listen to Blitz Creek Pop. 0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:48.040 I'm gonna copy that file off Jonathan's computer and put 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:50.520 it on my computer. Well, I can still listen to 0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:52.720 my copy of Blitz Creek Bop. As far as I 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:56.800 can tell from my perspective, nothing bad has happened because 0:15:56.880 --> 0:16:00.600 everything I have is still where it should be. Ut, 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:02.960 that's a case of theft. It's just not a case 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:08.280 of theft that is analogous necessarily just stealing physical goods. 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:12.000 And this, I think is where are a lot of 0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:15.560 the arguments center around this concept, the idea that if 0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:19.000 you're not if you're not really bereft of something, if 0:16:19.200 --> 0:16:22.320 if the object is not has not left your possession, 0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:25.120 how can you call it stealing? Well, this is where 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:28.840 we get to the concept that when you purchase i P, 0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:33.680 you're not really purchasing the i P. You're you're licensing it, right, 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:36.920 Like if I buy a book from Chris, Like Chris 0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:38.600 has written a book and he's published the book, and 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:41.240 I buy it from him, I know I don't own 0:16:41.400 --> 0:16:45.320 Chris's work, that that ownership does not transfer to me, 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:48.640 that that intellectual property doesn't transfer to me, just my 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:51.520 access to it. That's a license to access that i P. 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:55.600 And if you think of it in terms of licenses, 0:16:55.640 --> 0:16:59.680 then these questions start to get a little easier to understand. Now, 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:04.640 the question we were specifically asked was about getting an 0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:07.720 the legal copy of something that you already own legally 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:11.240 and where does that fall ethically? And I guess that 0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:16.000 really depends upon whom you ask. Yeah, yeah, I mean 0:17:16.040 --> 0:17:20.280 speaking speaking as a recording artist myself. Um, you know, 0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:23.800 long time listeners will recall that I am I've been 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:27.439 in several bands and have done recordings with with a 0:17:27.480 --> 0:17:31.159 few as well. Um, I sort of sympathized with the 0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:36.560 big name artists who have uh basically hollered about the 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:40.920 about people stealing their music because you know, for them 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:45.120 that's how they make their living. Um, so basically people 0:17:45.119 --> 0:17:48.679 are taking away a potential source of revenue. Now it 0:17:48.720 --> 0:17:52.200 doesn't you know, you could argue, you could make the argument, Hey, 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:56.200 I know these guys are on name of major label here, 0:17:57.000 --> 0:17:59.440 they're only getting a buck for every CD and I'm 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:03.520 basically on stealing a dollar from their coffers of money 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:06.600 that they're making touring. It's no big deal. But to them, 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:09.679 you know, if suddenly thousands of people are doing that, 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:11.919 then there's a possibility that they might have to go 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:14.320 get a day job. And I mean seriously, but there's 0:18:14.359 --> 0:18:16.679 also there's a getting to make that. To make it 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:19.560 more complicated, of course, this in this particular situation, we're 0:18:19.600 --> 0:18:24.200 talking about someone who has purchased that that product legally, 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:28.680 has converted it into digital media, which again is legal, yes, 0:18:29.400 --> 0:18:32.960 but then loses the digital copy and does not immediately 0:18:33.040 --> 0:18:36.359 have access to the physical copy. Is it wrong to 0:18:36.720 --> 0:18:41.360 download those files again for free? I would say that 0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:43.480 here's the problem that I have with this. The problem 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:46.800 is that by downloading those files for free, you are 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:52.280 participating in piracy. From from your perspective as the consumer, 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:55.280 it's not a huge deal, right, You're getting access to 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:58.359 files that you originally had access to in the first place. 0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:00.600 So for you, it just seems like it's it's like 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:03.920 nothing's really changed. But what you're doing is you're actually 0:19:03.960 --> 0:19:07.680 trafficking with someone who is distributing these files for free, 0:19:08.240 --> 0:19:12.480 and that means that they have violated copyright. They don't 0:19:12.600 --> 0:19:16.080 have the right to distribute that content. They are doing 0:19:16.119 --> 0:19:18.440 something that's wrong, and you are a part of that. 0:19:19.040 --> 0:19:23.760 So I would say that ethically, on your end, it 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:26.000 doesn't seem like a big deal, but in a bigger 0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:29.399 picture perspective, it's the wrong thing to do. I think 0:19:29.520 --> 0:19:32.520 legally it's more black and white. Well legally it's black 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:35.920 and white, but ethically and legally are two totally different concepts. Well, no, 0:19:36.040 --> 0:19:37.800 that's That's what I wanted to stress, is that there 0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:40.920 there is a clear division there. You know, legally, yes, 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:44.399 there's really no question according to these these laws that 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:46.600 have been set up in in so many countries and 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:49.560 the treaties that they have made to protect them, Yes, 0:19:49.600 --> 0:19:54.040 that is technically theft. Um or at least technically piracy. 0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:59.520 But ethnically, you know, from the user standpoint, it's a 0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:03.760 lot murk here. From the artist's standpoint or the author standpoint, 0:20:04.000 --> 0:20:05.800 it's like, hey, you know, you bought a copy of 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:07.760 my book. I can't help it if you left it 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:09.719 on the train. You know, that doesn't give you an 0:20:09.720 --> 0:20:12.639 excuse to go to the the library, you know, photocopy the 0:20:12.800 --> 0:20:16.680 entire thing and make yourself another copy for free. That's 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:20.080 not that's not my fault, right. But from the user's point, 0:20:20.080 --> 0:20:23.520 you know, I've already paid my twelve right, that's a 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:25.159 that's a very good point. I'm glad you paid that 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:27.800 way because the example I used when Chris and I 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:30.560 were just kind of chatting about this casually before the 0:20:30.600 --> 0:20:33.399 podcast was I said, well what if what if you 0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:38.400 um uh see how did I words? Le'll say, you 0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:41.960 you buy a book, okay, and then the book gets 0:20:42.080 --> 0:20:45.200 damaged beyond repair, or you lose it or whatever. At 0:20:45.200 --> 0:20:47.440 some point you no longer have access to that book, 0:20:47.480 --> 0:20:49.720 but you purchased it. That does not give you the 0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:53.399 right to go out and steal another copy of that book. 0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:56.520 But then you have the argument of hey, you're talking 0:20:56.520 --> 0:20:59.560 about physical media, here, by stealing a physical object, you 0:20:59.600 --> 0:21:03.280 have didn't eyed the the publisher or bookseller or whomever, 0:21:04.280 --> 0:21:07.000 the right to sell that. Whereas when you're talking about 0:21:07.000 --> 0:21:09.840 digital again, you're making a copy, you're not stealing a 0:21:09.840 --> 0:21:13.800 physical object. But it's again, if you go back to 0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:16.920 the license argument, as you did, because you were talking 0:21:16.920 --> 0:21:19.760 about going to the library and copying a book, that's 0:21:19.800 --> 0:21:23.959 still not legal. And is it ethical or not? Well, 0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:27.199 it depends on upon whom you ask again, Like like 0:21:27.240 --> 0:21:30.080 I said, they are like Randy Cohen, who writes for 0:21:30.119 --> 0:21:35.600 the New York Times magazine. Randy Cohen writes about ethical issues, 0:21:35.880 --> 0:21:39.480 and he was specifically asked about a case where someone 0:21:39.520 --> 0:21:44.040 had bought a hardback copy of a novel and she 0:21:44.280 --> 0:21:47.600 wanted to be able to read an electronic copy of 0:21:47.640 --> 0:21:51.000 that novel, but there was no e book available for purchase. 0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:55.119 So what she was wondering was is it wrong to 0:21:55.320 --> 0:22:00.480 download a pirated electronic copy of that book having already 0:22:00.520 --> 0:22:04.560 purchased the book through legal means, and there's no there's 0:22:04.600 --> 0:22:09.200 no legal recourse to get an electronic copy. Mr Cohen 0:22:09.320 --> 0:22:15.320 said that he thought ethically that was all right. Yeah, 0:22:15.359 --> 0:22:19.560 that blew my mind too. I I'm not so quick 0:22:19.600 --> 0:22:23.800 to jump on that. Um. Here, here's the thing. If 0:22:23.840 --> 0:22:25.680 you went and you purchased a book, and you brought 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:28.560 it home and scanned every single page and created a 0:22:28.600 --> 0:22:31.719 digital copy yourself, I have no problem with that because 0:22:31.760 --> 0:22:33.439 I think of that as fair use. You're doing that 0:22:33.520 --> 0:22:36.680 for archival purposes, or you're doing it you're your your 0:22:36.760 --> 0:22:40.800 space shifting the work correct like you're you're shifting it 0:22:40.840 --> 0:22:44.040 from a physical medium to a digital medium. UM, I 0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:46.240 have no issue with any of that. What I have 0:22:46.280 --> 0:22:48.879 a problem with is the fact that by going to 0:22:49.119 --> 0:22:54.159 a source where they are distributing this, you have taken 0:22:54.200 --> 0:22:58.440 part of an illegal practice, and that means you're supporting 0:22:58.480 --> 0:23:01.280 an illegal practice. Now, now from your perspective, you're doing 0:23:01.320 --> 0:23:04.280 it very ethically because you've already purchased that content. It's 0:23:04.320 --> 0:23:09.359 not like you are getting around purchasing the content again 0:23:10.240 --> 0:23:12.920 because again there's no legal recourse for you to get 0:23:12.920 --> 0:23:16.000 that e book ethically for you, I guess I don't 0:23:16.000 --> 0:23:18.600 have an issue with it. But again, big picture, you're 0:23:18.640 --> 0:23:26.639 supporting a larger piracy effort that violates the distribution portion 0:23:26.720 --> 0:23:31.679 of copyright. So while while I would say that, I 0:23:31.720 --> 0:23:34.320 would feel as on my own end that I would have. 0:23:34.720 --> 0:23:37.000 You know, I don't have a big problem with doing this. 0:23:37.440 --> 0:23:40.800 If I thought about my actions beyond just the fact 0:23:40.840 --> 0:23:44.760 that this is benefiting me to this is supporting an 0:23:44.960 --> 0:23:49.840 entire illegal industry, then that's where the problems start coming 0:23:49.840 --> 0:23:55.480 in for me Ethically. It's it's it's a a tough question. Um, 0:23:55.800 --> 0:23:58.000 I can tell you. Let me be perfectly honest here. 0:23:58.200 --> 0:24:01.320