1 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:12,799 Speaker 1: You're listening to Alive Again, a production of Psychopia Pictures 2 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: and iHeart Podcasts. 3 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 2: My name is Taylor Maxon and when I was in 4 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 2: my late twenties, I almost died on the Cumberland River. 5 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to Alive Again, a podcast that showcases miraculous accounts 6 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,239 Speaker 1: of human fragility and resilience from people whose lives were 7 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: forever altered after having almost died. These are first hand 8 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:47,160 Speaker 1: accounts of near death experiences and more broadly, brushes with death. 9 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: Our mission is simple, find, explore, and share these stories 10 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 1: to remind us all of our shared human condition. Please 11 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: keep in mind these stories are true and maybe triggering 12 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: for some listener, and discretion is advised. 13 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 3: I was twenty six years old when I took a 14 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 3: job at a place called Buckhorn Wilderness. 15 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:18,479 Speaker 2: I had spent a number of years just going from 16 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:22,839 Speaker 2: job to job and think to thing, and then along 17 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 2: the way I found I really had a gift for 18 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:28,400 Speaker 2: relating to and mentoring these troubled kids. We used to 19 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 2: call them at risk kids, and I guess that on 20 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 2: some level, part of that spoke to me personally. I 21 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 2: grew up in the Northeast until I was probably eight 22 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 2: or nine, and then we moved to Kentucky, which. 23 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 3: Was a bit of a brutal switch. 24 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 2: My siblings and I weren't super close. The age spread 25 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 2: is like a sibling who was nearly ten years older 26 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 2: when he's five years older, and one he was a 27 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 2: year and a half older, and he and I were 28 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 2: probably the closest. My parents divorced when I was I 29 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 2: guess twelve, and I went from being a child of 30 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 2: like a pretty big household to like essentially me and 31 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 2: my mother when I was twelve or thirteen, my mom. 32 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 2: Actually I saw my mom recily and she said, I've 33 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 2: got this report card I have to show you in 34 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 2: as like report cards. She's like, yeah, from sixth grade. 35 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 2: And I looked at it and like I saw my grades, 36 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 2: which are actually pretty good. But then all of the 37 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 2: marks for my behavior were like talk successively, doesn't listen 38 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 2: to the teacher, not inattentive in class, moves around too much, 39 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:28,640 Speaker 2: da da da da da da dah. Like I was 40 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 2: that kind of kid. I was sort of like the 41 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 2: lost child. That's like a framework that describes the roles 42 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 2: that different people take in families, like the clown and 43 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 2: the rescuer, the scapegoat, it sort of falls into that 44 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:48,079 Speaker 2: interpretation of roles. You experience safety as getting away from 45 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 2: a relationship the lost child. You may not be a 46 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 2: personality wise introvert, but you move towards introversion because it's 47 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 2: protective in a family where it may not feel safe 48 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 2: to express your emotions. Spend a lot of time on 49 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 2: my own and spent a lot of time in my 50 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 2: inner world basically, so as I said, I took on 51 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 2: this job at Buckcorn Wilderness and I was twenty six 52 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 2: years old. It was part of the field of interventions 53 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:19,239 Speaker 2: with like teens who are struggling with like social emotional challenges, 54 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 2: parents will send them to these programs, and young adults 55 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 2: like me were staffed and we were just sort of 56 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 2: helping be mentors and guides, and like I could imagine 57 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 2: myself with only a slightly altered set of details in 58 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 2: my life story ending up where these kids were. In 59 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 2: this case, it was cancer around probation. So it's like 60 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 2: not just like worried well kids or you know, just struggling, 61 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 2: but they were. 62 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 3: These kids had committed crimes and were in. 63 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 2: The juvenile justice system. And the way it works is 64 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 2: like there's a month of base camp in a month 65 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 2: of wilderness like on the trail. It was a startup, right, 66 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 2: So there it was pretty much like a let's just 67 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 2: do a lot of trial and error and see what works, 68 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 2: you know, and what sticks right. The staff were we 69 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:16,159 Speaker 2: worked three weeks on and one week off, which is insane. 70 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 3: It was just crazy intense heard on the. 71 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 2: Body with a group of kids who were how do 72 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 2: I put it politely, right, like challenging behaviorally Thanksgiving nineteen 73 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 2: ninety nine and pouring rain. A kid picked up a 74 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 2: burning lug and wielded it toward another kid and I 75 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 2: had to physically intervene and. 76 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:41,239 Speaker 3: Stop it from happening. 77 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 2: That was one of many what felt like very out 78 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:50,479 Speaker 2: of control incidents, Like I definitely had a couple of 79 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 2: like I would just say, like straight up panic attacks, 80 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 2: or I'd walk off into the woods and just like 81 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:57,039 Speaker 2: my heart was racing, you know, like I don't know 82 00:04:57,080 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 2: that we're gonna be able to keep these kids safe 83 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 2: and keep ourselves safe. It was only there for maybe 84 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:05,479 Speaker 2: nine months. We did the program through the winter. It 85 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 2: was a really cold winter. It was really harsh, like, yeah, 86 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 2: we were living outside and it was like it would 87 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 2: be like three degrees. 88 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 3: So This was April of two thousand. We had a 89 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 3: really particularly. 90 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 2: Stressful group when it sort of then became almost stressful 91 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 2: and dangerous, like we may end up getting hurt, and 92 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 2: we all decided to quit and we did it as 93 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 2: a group, and I was with my two friends and 94 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:40,720 Speaker 2: coworkers from the Wilderness Program. The most appealing thing at 95 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 2: that time was like, oh my god, let's just like 96 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 2: I want to experience nature again without all the stress. 97 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 2: We decided to do a multi night canoe trip on 98 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 2: a star, know the Cumberland River that has some significant 99 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 2: white water, and we were just super excited about like 100 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 2: going to these kind of decentralized spots on the river 101 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 2: to camp and drink whiskey, you know, and like sit 102 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 2: under the stars. Right. It was just like after nine 103 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 2: months or so of intense stress and we were like 104 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 2: it was just going to be such a like release. 105 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:26,479 Speaker 2: We're all really thrilled about it. Our very first night, 106 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:29,799 Speaker 2: we got there in the evening and you know, camped 107 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 2: I think kind of like at a campground and like 108 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 2: drank some bourbon and smoked a lot of cigarettes and 109 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 2: sat by a fire and probably played a guitar, you know, 110 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 2: sat around talking and just really enjoying our freedom. 111 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 3: I doubt we slept a lot. 112 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 2: I would say maybe hours, a few hours, And we 113 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 2: planned that first morning to get close to this falls 114 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 2: called Angel Falls, a massive mousetroom of like boulders and 115 00:06:57,480 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 2: torrents of water and like a class four and I 116 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 2: think five rabbits, so as high as it gets, I 117 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:08,480 Speaker 2: think in terms of technical ability to move to navigate 118 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 2: with a watercraft, and we were not intending to run that, 119 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 2: by the way. We were intending to portage the rabbits, 120 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 2: so to take the canoe eddy out of the river 121 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 2: ahead of the whitewater and then walk the canoes and 122 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 2: gear you know, down a path right beyond the falls 123 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 2: back into the river. So we wake up the next 124 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 2: morning it was like a misty mooring, pretty hungover with 125 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 2: very little sleep, and we pack up the canoe and 126 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 2: set out. We are traveling down this fairly full Cumberland River, 127 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 2: not wearing our floatation devices because like a bunch of 128 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 2: twenty somethings, we got hot and just didn't really think 129 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 2: we needed them and weren't intending to go into any 130 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 2: kind of white. 131 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 3: Water that day. 132 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 2: And we're just chatting and hanging out and talking and 133 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 2: doing what we did. And we rounded a bend at 134 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 2: some point after not a long time, hour or two, 135 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 2: and we could hear rushing, you know, the thrum of 136 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 2: rushing water, a thunderous roar and boom. There was a 137 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 2: giant boulder in the middle of the river, maybe one 138 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 2: hundred yards ahead of us, and there was water coursing 139 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:35,319 Speaker 2: around it, white torrent of water, and then just ahead 140 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:37,679 Speaker 2: like the sound of like roaring. 141 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:46,559 Speaker 3: It's holy shit, this is the big one. 142 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 2: We just rounded this bend in this quickly moving river 143 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:54,839 Speaker 2: and we are now face to face with a classified 144 00:08:55,000 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 2: rapid that really only the most skilled whitewater people would 145 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 2: run with helmets and flotation. 146 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 3: We were in one. 147 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 2: Canoe, so I was in the front of the canoe, 148 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 2: a friend of mine who was not very experienced, was 149 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 2: in the back, and then my buddy was in the middle. 150 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:17,719 Speaker 2: We panicked, and in attempting to eddie out, one of 151 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 2: us grabbed the gunwhale so like the sides of the 152 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 2: canoe and flipped the canoe and the canoe spun in 153 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,559 Speaker 2: the current so that the front of the canoe sort 154 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 2: of in the middle of the river. In the back 155 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 2: of the canoe was actually jetting toward the shore in 156 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 2: the middle in the back. 157 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 3: My friends got out and were able to swim into 158 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 3: the eddy. I was in the front and I went 159 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 3: straight into the rabbits. 160 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 2: And this all happened in it like in split second. 161 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 2: They actually had a rescue rope and tried to throw 162 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 2: it to me, didn't make it to me. And I'm 163 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 2: faced with a giant boulder in front of me, maybe 164 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 2: four feet out of the water, with water thundering around it. 165 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 2: My friend yells, don't stand up, don't stand up. I 166 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 2: was trying to kind of make my body upright, like 167 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 2: I was gonna kind of hit this boulder and then 168 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,679 Speaker 2: sort of hold and my friend yelled yells, don't stand up, 169 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 2: don't stand up, and I'm gone. 170 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 3: I'm just supped right around it. 171 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 2: And suddenly I'm just spun about and I'm just being 172 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 2: pulled in, pulled under. 173 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 3: My body is spinning around, I'm hanging up on rocks. 174 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 3: I'm scraping my head. 175 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:41,719 Speaker 2: I'm in the light and I'm kind of in the 176 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 2: filtered light, and I'm in the green of the water 177 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 2: looking up at the surface, and I'm struggling for the surface, 178 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 2: you know, all the time doing everything I can out 179 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 2: of instinct to like get up right. I'm just trying 180 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 2: to get back into the air. At one point I 181 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 2: get sucked down and I realize I'm in a shoot 182 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 2: where water has bore a tunnel under rock and was 183 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 2: actually pulled into it. Suddenly I just realized, like, holy shit, 184 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 2: I'm under the rock and I'm in a shoot and 185 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 2: if it narrows, I will just jam up in it, right, 186 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 2: And I just was like suddenly fighting for my life, 187 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 2: you know, like hey, morning, where you're just having fun 188 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 2: and there was this was supposed to be this release 189 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 2: and this freedom, and like. 190 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 3: Suddenly you're drowning. 191 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 2: And my head is being scraped along the top of 192 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 2: it and I can taste blood in my mouth, and 193 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 2: I realized this is it, this. 194 00:11:50,280 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 3: Is the end, and pop. 195 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 2: Out of it, back into the light, and I'm back 196 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 2: up in the air. And it's a funny. It's a 197 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 2: strange thing, like. 198 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 3: What is drowning? 199 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 2: Right? It's like I didn't actually drown, obviously I'm here 200 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 2: to tell the tale, but like I did, because I 201 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:21,319 Speaker 2: inhaled water, I know what it's like to feel water 202 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 2: in my lungs and to be breathing water and to 203 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 2: be coughing it up underwater, and I would pop up 204 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:29,839 Speaker 2: once in a while and sort of get a breath 205 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 2: and sort of choke water, you know, vomit water up, 206 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 2: and then get pulled back down and be back in 207 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 2: the torrent again. And later I learned my friends were 208 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 2: actually sort of like they didn't see me much. They 209 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:48,439 Speaker 2: were able to see me at first, but they just 210 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 2: saw me disappear, so they just believed I was dead. 211 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 2: They were sure, I mean, because I don't know how 212 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 2: many people you tossed into a rabbit like that and 213 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 2: survive it. I don't know that I could have been 214 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 2: in there for more than two minutes, maybe three. I 215 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 2: sort of ended up falling out of consciousness and waking 216 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 2: up on the edge of the river, on the other 217 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:17,679 Speaker 2: side of the river from where my friends were, And 218 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 2: I lay there for a spell with my heart racing 219 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 2: and still coughing up water, and I start to hear 220 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 2: voices over the roar of the water. I hear my 221 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 2: friends yelling tailor. Eventually I saw my friends and they 222 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 2: were both just bawling, like they were sure that I 223 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 2: was dead, and I realized I lived. Then we have 224 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 2: this problem solved, which is how do they get to me? 225 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 2: And one of them goes and grabs the canoe and 226 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 2: brings it all the way down past the rapids into 227 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 2: calmer water, crosses the river and then walks up a 228 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 2: real choked, entangled bank to get to me. So the 229 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 2: whole thing was maybe thirty minutes. But I fell out 230 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 2: of time, right, It was just like totally out of time, 231 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 2: and you know, I realized, like wow, that that at 232 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 2: that time, I was then well aware that like I 233 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 2: really just about died. And I don't know what the 234 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 2: like what the margins were, but like it was pretty close, 235 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 2: very easily could have just been in been a story 236 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 2: in the paper, like yep, another person drowned at Angel Falls. 237 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 2: I was in shock, and I was for a few hours. 238 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 2: I went off by myself and chain smoked cigarette after 239 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 2: cigarette after cigarette for probably an hour or two and 240 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 2: just had to be on my own, and I sort 241 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 2: of kind of popped out of it. 242 00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 3: Sort of that state of shock, like I'm alive. I'm alive. 243 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 2: I was able then to realize what had happened and 244 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 2: actually reflect on it, and it was scary. And then 245 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 2: I think it set me on a journey, like what 246 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 2: does it mean, like, what did that mean for me? 247 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 2: What am I supposed to take away from that experience? Right, 248 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 2: But I'm bandaged up and I'm banged up. It makes 249 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 2: the most sense after some discussion, to just finish the 250 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 2: trip easier, just to take the follow the river down 251 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 2: to our endpoint where we had a vehicle. So I 252 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 2: did two more nights and like had to be in 253 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 2: the canoe for two more days, which sounds insane saying 254 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 2: it as a fifty year old, Oh my god, but 255 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 2: we did it. I was very weakened and I slept 256 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 2: poorly and I was still sort of in shock, I think, 257 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 2: and I went and went to my mother's. It was 258 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 2: just like a convenient harbor in Lexington. I went and 259 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 2: I sort of idled for a couple of weeks. I 260 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 2: didn't have a job because we'd left our jobs, kind 261 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 2: of got physically recuperated. I had saved some money working 262 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 2: a buckhorn. So I decided I need to get in motion, 263 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 2: like my body was telling me, mobilize, don't just sit here, like. 264 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 3: I need to go. 265 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 2: So, I mean, I think, like I knew metaphorically at 266 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 2: the time that like, oh, go to the driest place 267 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 2: in the US, right, like that seems like a noe 268 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:44,359 Speaker 2: brainer in some ways, like you already did the Malstrom, 269 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 2: you know, like, so go to the desert and see 270 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 2: the burning bush. 271 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 3: I don't know. And so, somewhat of a spur of. 272 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 2: The moment, made plans to do a two month trip 273 00:16:54,840 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 2: by myself into the Western States. Don't stop, don't pause 274 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 2: too much, don't I don't, don't think about it too much, 275 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 2: don't you know, like go to some degree, the poignancy 276 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 2: was nature. It was like I knew I wanted to 277 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 2: just go and be in nature, and be in nature 278 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 2: in a way. 279 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 3: It wasn't. 280 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 2: Deadly, that wasn't like nature had total control of me. 281 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 2: There was a lot of solitude, right, And this is 282 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 2: some of the darkest places in the US. 283 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 3: So you're sitting under. 284 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:40,920 Speaker 2: These black skies with the Milky Way spread out above you, right, 285 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 2: And just like I did the Hila in New Mexico 286 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 2: for maybe a ten day loop, and I like ran 287 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:51,199 Speaker 2: into people on the trail because of these hot springs 288 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:51,640 Speaker 2: in the Hla. 289 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 3: It's amazing. And I became sort of a. 290 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 2: Pod of like maybe me and two other people, and 291 00:17:57,400 --> 00:17:59,159 Speaker 2: we hiked together and then we'd sort of split up 292 00:17:59,160 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 2: and hiked together. 293 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,640 Speaker 3: I felt kindredness. 294 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 2: With these folks and like I seeing my friends, the 295 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 2: poignancy in the sense of gratitude I had that I 296 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 2: had people who love me and who I know I 297 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 2: can go to and like they can be these Buoize 298 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 2: for me was really powerful. One of the friends that 299 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 2: I saw, he was like took really good care of me, 300 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 2: and like he took me up to the northern New 301 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 2: Mexico to like the Hamus Mountains, Hamus Pueblo cliff dwellings, 302 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 2: Like he just took care of me, like he saw 303 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:37,199 Speaker 2: I needed somebody to anchor me. At the time, I 304 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 2: don't think I thought of it that way, but now 305 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:40,119 Speaker 2: I see it that way as. 306 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 3: Like, oh yeah, I was like looking for a connection 307 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:43,679 Speaker 3: and attunement. 308 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:49,159 Speaker 2: When a thing like that happens, when you have a 309 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:53,439 Speaker 2: near death experience, it sort of lodges in and I 310 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 2: would have moments where I would just have a daylight 311 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 2: hallucination of being in it, and I would get the 312 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 2: image of being earned about in the water and sort 313 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 2: of suddenly my heart would be racing. So I continue 314 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 2: to play the image over, I think, the way you 315 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 2: do with an event like that, and at some point 316 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:13,640 Speaker 2: was like, hey, I wonder if other people have gone 317 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:17,959 Speaker 2: through that rapid and I like lived or drown. So 318 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:20,160 Speaker 2: I probably googled it, you know, it's just like two 319 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 2: thousand and one, I think, or two, and I learned 320 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 2: that a, yeah, a young child who was nine drown 321 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,120 Speaker 2: nearly a year to the day in that exact same 322 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:35,239 Speaker 2: rapid under essentially the same circumstances a tipped canoe. And 323 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 2: it really, you know, I felt survivor's guild. I thought, 324 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 2: why did I survive and that child didn't? And I 325 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 2: do think I felt to some degree, like, well, I 326 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 2: need to live out somehow a way to deserve that 327 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 2: I survived and he didn't, which is a lot of 328 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 2: pressure to put on yourself. Gosh, I'm a therapist, and 329 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 2: I've never really thought about it as PTSD because I 330 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,439 Speaker 2: just tend not to apply that to myself. But like, 331 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,159 Speaker 2: the whole thing was pretty traumatic, like like from the 332 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 2: work I did to the experience I had in the river. 333 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 2: So I was coping with like a nervous system that 334 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 2: got really rattled, and like didn't have a lot of 335 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 2: great tools at that time, and at that age, right, 336 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 2: I was twenty seven at this point in my life 337 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 2: and the lot of the twenty seven year olds. 338 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 3: I knew I was measuring myself against. 339 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:40,159 Speaker 2: Many of them were on a path like a career, 340 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:43,680 Speaker 2: an occupational path that seemed to me from the outside 341 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 2: sort of mythically organized and grounded and like together. And 342 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 2: I felt sort of like a maybe a fuck up, 343 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 2: like you know, I hadn't really figured my shit out, 344 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,159 Speaker 2: and maybe even to some degree like that river was 345 00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 2: a punishment. 346 00:20:58,760 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 3: I'm not sure I've ever. 347 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 2: Fought that and even said that before I said it 348 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 2: just now, but like, yeah, my brother saw this happening, 349 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 2: I think, and he offered himself and his home in 350 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 2: his life. He was a you know, five years older 351 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 2: than me and a pretty successful lawyer, and he was like, dude, 352 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:23,439 Speaker 2: come here. I sort of resisted it, and then I 353 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:24,879 Speaker 2: was like, why am I resisting this? And I just 354 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:28,160 Speaker 2: went and I moved to Atlanta and moved in with him, 355 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 2: and I think I lived with him for about a 356 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:33,959 Speaker 2: year and it just gave me a safe, stable base 357 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 2: and like somebody to soundboard off of. And I think 358 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 2: I talked about the lost child. It's like the lost 359 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:45,680 Speaker 2: child wants to be invisible. They're not seeking relational support. 360 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,719 Speaker 2: In fact, it's just the opposite. But the imperative at 361 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,640 Speaker 2: this time was if you're going to grow, you've got 362 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:55,199 Speaker 2: to do that. In some ways, he was able to 363 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 2: see beyond the lost child into like the other aspects 364 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 2: of me, fleck those back when I could not see them, 365 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 2: just found myself asking questions and sort of alive, right 366 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:17,959 Speaker 2: alive again. There it is, I don't have to do 367 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 2: everything on my own. I can be connected to things 368 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:23,879 Speaker 2: or people in ways that do not require me to 369 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 2: be an island. 370 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 3: Safety is not inherently withdrawal. 371 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 2: Nature put the exclamation point on you don't have to 372 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 2: be invisible. Come out here and start living your life. 373 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 2: My life easily could have ended, and I get to 374 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 2: sort of be the author of the next however long 375 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 2: I got and I met my wife actually shortly thereafter 376 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 2: all of these things happened, like a twenty something, I 377 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 2: just like dated around and you know, had very short 378 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 2: term relationships and didn't really picture myself getting married. 379 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 3: And then I met. 380 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 2: Susannah through mutual friends. And she was a searcher, super smart, 381 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 2: really cool person, really interesting and really interested in a 382 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:12,640 Speaker 2: lot of things curious. 383 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,119 Speaker 3: So it was validating to have. 384 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 2: Somebody kind of reflect back that it's okay to like 385 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:25,959 Speaker 2: be still searching, like I secured pretty quickly, like relationship, 386 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,199 Speaker 2: like the thing that I didn't think I was going 387 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 2: to be good at the right in place, and I've 388 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,120 Speaker 2: been together now for like what is that two twenty 389 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 2: three years? There certainly were things that remained out of place. 390 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 2: I was going from job to job every year or 391 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 2: two and restless. Definitely these tendencies toward impulsivity and in 392 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 2: attention or sometimes too much attention. I would have a 393 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,479 Speaker 2: really hard time persisting toward a thing and staying with 394 00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:00,639 Speaker 2: an intention, remembering to do things that I said I 395 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 2: do being really agonized by boredom, like just like tortured 396 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 2: by it when I felt bored, you know, things like that, 397 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 2: and like a fairly low frustration tolerance. Like these are 398 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 2: things that were true about me, and I just took 399 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 2: it to be like features of. 400 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:18,880 Speaker 3: Like my personality. And I think I. 401 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 2: Started to realize this is not a moral failing, or 402 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 2: at least some part of me started to get this 403 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 2: is not a moral failing, This is not a character problem. 404 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 2: And this is when I started to realize, like, oh shit, 405 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:36,400 Speaker 2: like I think I actually have ADHD nowadays, we'd call 406 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 2: that neurodivergence. 407 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 3: That's one term that tends to wrap it all up. 408 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,160 Speaker 2: And so in my thirties, after all this stuff happened, 409 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:47,919 Speaker 2: I started to have this realization like, oh, that's what 410 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,159 Speaker 2: I'm going to need to do, is like understand that 411 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 2: and like embrace it. There was a lot of shame 412 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 2: it was going to have to work through, and ultimately did. 413 00:24:57,720 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 2: And that's when I actually went and got a diagnosis 414 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 2: and like started to actually work on it. 415 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 3: Within the five years after my river experience. 416 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:07,679 Speaker 2: I suppose I've never really thought of it this way, 417 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:12,679 Speaker 2: but like I've run the rehearsal down the chute towards 418 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 2: the fucking light, I have actually been near death. 419 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:21,239 Speaker 3: So okay, there's a little comfort in that. 420 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:27,639 Speaker 2: Strangely, there is a clock ticking in my life and 421 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 2: like it just about stopped ticking. 422 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 3: Oh it's ticking again. 423 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:33,879 Speaker 2: M hm. 424 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:34,960 Speaker 3: So let's make something of that. 425 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 1: Welcome back, This is Alive again, joining me for a 426 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 1: conversation about today's story or am my other alive in story? 427 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: Producers Lauren Vogelbaum, Nicholas Dakowski, and Brent Dye, and I'm 428 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 1: your host, Dan Bush. So what struck me about this 429 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:14,719 Speaker 1: story was well, for one, I had a canoeing accident 430 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:16,880 Speaker 1: when I was when I was young, a young fellow 431 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:23,479 Speaker 1: that was similar to his. I don't know I was. 432 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,159 Speaker 1: I was underwater and caught in a in a rapid. 433 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 1: It didn't pop me out for about an account of 434 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:30,639 Speaker 1: one thousand and one, one thousand and two, so all 435 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 1: the way up to almost a oneenty twenty. 436 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 3: Who So I was down there for a while. 437 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,640 Speaker 4: Just I literally had a panic attack listening to you. 438 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 1: So oddly in my experience when it happened to me, 439 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: I was on outward bound and the canoe flipped and 440 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 1: it was, you know, a class four rapid or something. 441 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,439 Speaker 1: And what you explained netward bound, Oh yeah, it's one 442 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,400 Speaker 1: of it's outward bound. It's like an outdoor leadership school 443 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 1: from the nineties, from. 444 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 4: The nineties, A lot of things that's true. 445 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, you do things like you go on a solo 446 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 1: camping trip for three days in the woods with nothing 447 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 1: but an orange and the block of cheese, and you 448 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:11,359 Speaker 1: do ropes courses and then you know, you learn orientation, 449 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:13,639 Speaker 1: how to use a compass and a map to go 450 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 1: off trail. 451 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:15,920 Speaker 5: Maybe we should do a sponsorship deal with them because 452 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 5: I bet they have a lot of stories. 453 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:18,119 Speaker 6: You could tip it. 454 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 2: They do. 455 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 6: How many of your clients? 456 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:23,119 Speaker 3: But I have almost died? 457 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 6: Great, could you like to sponsor us and share that story. 458 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 6: We'll have to and we'll have. 459 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 1: To fact check this, but but I do remember, like 460 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: the most outdoor fatalities happen in the waters. 461 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 7: Yeah, you can't you can't breathe there. 462 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 1: And I think second is rock climbing or whatever, climbing 463 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 1: but as you can fall. Yeah, but water is the 464 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:46,479 Speaker 1: most dangerous sort of element. 465 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 4: Oh like ninety five percent of the deaths. And Moby 466 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 4: Dick took place. 467 00:27:50,400 --> 00:28:00,120 Speaker 3: In the ocean. I didn't even get to the shore. 468 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: But so I can identify with the with what happened 469 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:04,920 Speaker 1: to him. 470 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 3: But that's about it. 471 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 6: Well, that was a big that might be the biggest 472 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:14,000 Speaker 6: set on the podcast. And that's a lie. Thank you guys, 473 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 6: tune in next week. 474 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 3: No, but I. 475 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,159 Speaker 1: I did you know. I do think it's interesting and 476 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 1: Lauren had this perspective. We talked about this in the 477 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: car a little bit on the way over here. While 478 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 1: we were driving here, we kind of got into some 479 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 1: of these stories. But Lauren, you got a really cool 480 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:34,160 Speaker 1: take on how being a therapist added to his perspective. 481 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:34,680 Speaker 3: Can you share? 482 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, so if you can, tian outward Bound. 483 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 7: For sponsorship brought to you by Walmart, let's leave them 484 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 7: out of this. I loved the number of times that 485 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 7: Taylor surprised himself during this interview, you know, and especially 486 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 7: because right he's a therapist, Like this is a human 487 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 7: who has devoted a good unk of his life to 488 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 7: trying to understand the way that the human mind works. 489 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 7: But we are always processing the stuff that happens to 490 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:14,959 Speaker 7: us forever. And you know, every time you recall a memory, 491 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 7: you're reprocessing it, you're changing it, you're adding or forgetting context. 492 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 7: This is why talk therapy works. But I kind of 493 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 7: love hearing that surprise from someone who has clearly worked 494 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 7: on himself a lot, who is a therapist by trade, 495 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,800 Speaker 7: who is still growing and considering and learning about himself. 496 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 7: It gives me that hope that maybe we're all capable 497 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 7: of continuing to grow. It was one of those near 498 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 7: death experiences where like it took him a minute, like 499 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 7: like death was not the end of his story, but 500 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 7: neither was merely surviving it, like there was a lot 501 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 7: more work to do. 502 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: Was it just the physical shock of what happened with 503 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 1: that or you know, in the aftermath, the physical shock 504 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 1: of what had happened to him dislodged this much deeper 505 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 1: thing that he was working through and continued to work through. 506 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 1: For If anything, it just put a magnifying glass on 507 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: something deeper in his soul that he's been working through 508 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 1: ever since. 509 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 7: Yeah. And furthermore, that he turned it right, that he 510 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 7: turned it into a trade that he, as we talk 511 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 7: about in a lot of these stories, wound up wanting 512 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 7: to use that to see if he could help other people. 513 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, his story isn't just a straight line. It's you know, 514 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: he struggles with shame and you know, survivor's guilt. Eventually, 515 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 1: adhd that survivor's guilt was the guilt of you know, 516 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 1: he survived the rapid where I think a year later 517 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 1: a child died in the exact same rapid. But underneath 518 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: all of this is this realization that safety doesn't come 519 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 1: from disappearing it. If you have any hope of safety, 520 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: it comes from connection and letting others see you in 521 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 1: all of your messiness, you know, and being what's that 522 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 1: thing that another person in our show, Nick Bradley who 523 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: was blown up on I D in Afghanistan. He said, 524 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 1: you know, we're strongest when we're most vulnerable. 525 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 6: Mm. 526 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 1: And you know, I think that that's something that maybe 527 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe Taylor came to that that on 528 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 1: you know himself. 529 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 7: Side note here, I guess congrats like team as a whole, 530 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 7: and in this case to Kate in particular, who conducted 531 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 7: this interview for providing a space for people to work 532 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 7: on their shit through storytelling present Company included. 533 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: It's been a really interesting experience talking to these hosts 534 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,000 Speaker 1: because when when we all first started doing this, it 535 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 1: was like, I don't know what to expect. I don't 536 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 1: know what questions to ask. I don't even know what 537 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 1: I'm looking for. I don't know what this show's about. 538 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 1: And it's evolved into this thing where you see patterns 539 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 1: and you see there's a real understand there. Starts to 540 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: develop this sort of picture of the human condition in 541 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 1: a way that is revealing because of these there's these spikes, 542 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 1: these near death experiences in these brushes with death's that 543 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 1: spike awareness. But then it's really about I learned early on, 544 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 1: it's not about It's not about those the spectacle of 545 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 1: those spikes. It's about the transformational sort of liminal periods 546 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: that happen happen afterwards, and that's where we find all 547 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 1: these wonderful questions about the human brain and about the 548 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 1: human spirit and about life and death. And I didn't 549 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 1: know that it would be this revealing about how much 550 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 1: of it isn't heroic, and how much of it is messy, 551 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: and how much of it. 552 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 3: Is grasping in the dark. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that. 553 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 4: I think that's what really has struck me through a 554 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 4: lot of this is just like we learn more about 555 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 4: ourselves and our low moments than in our high moments. 556 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 3: Ah yeah, because because the great. 557 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 4: Moments usually come of the great deal of art office, 558 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 4: you know. And I think that you know, Dan to 559 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 4: speak to, you know, being strongest when you're most vulnerable. 560 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 4: I think that that comes for sort of self reflection 561 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 4: as well. We understand more about ourselves when we are 562 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 4: in a situation where we behave in a way that 563 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 4: we don't consider to be normal for us. And I 564 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 4: think that, yeah, I think that that's been really one 565 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 4: of the most interesting things for me in this is 566 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 4: what we and and something that is through It's a 567 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 4: through line in every single story. It's we surprise ourselves, 568 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 4: not necessarily with just the resilience, but also with like 569 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 4: learning something shitty about yourself in a low moment and 570 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 4: examining that is a gift that a lot of people 571 00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 4: don't get well. 572 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 5: I think even people have gone through these traumatic experiences 573 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 5: when we interview them on the podcast. I mean, I've 574 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 5: had the experience of people I never really thought of 575 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 5: that the way Taylor does. Like I just did a 576 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 5: word count it's like twenty times or something like that. 577 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 5: We're like, well, I didn't think of that, and I'm 578 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:16,879 Speaker 5: a therapist. I didn't think of that. And I think, 579 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 5: you know, our society is so fast paced that we 580 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:25,439 Speaker 5: don't allow ourselves the moments of reflection to really try 581 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 5: to take the lesson. I don't even know if we 582 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,440 Speaker 5: value the idea that there could be a lesson in 583 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 5: some of these experiences. 584 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 3: So Taylor said this. 585 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 1: He said that nature, in this case his canoeing accident, 586 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,719 Speaker 1: Nature put the exclamation point on you don't have to 587 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 1: be invisible. And that just ties into this idea that 588 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,680 Speaker 1: when we all most want to run and hide and 589 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,759 Speaker 1: shelter ourselves, perhaps the safest bed is actually to to 590 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: find community, and maybe the show in and of itself 591 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,319 Speaker 1: is part of that. I hope it is. Anyway, Yeah, 592 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 1: I think time and time again, these stories point at 593 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,800 Speaker 1: us needing each other, and needing community, and needing safety 594 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:15,759 Speaker 1: in numbers. Next time on A Live Again, we sit 595 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,839 Speaker 1: down with filmmaker Jonas el Ra, whose sudden and life 596 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:23,880 Speaker 1: changing awakening open m divisions, voices and realities beyond the ordinary. 597 00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,360 Speaker 3: It was beautiful and wild and also terrifying. Is a 598 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 3: lightment real. I have no idea, I don't care. 599 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 6: I'm just trying to be trump, be present, grateful, more loving. 600 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:35,439 Speaker 3: Hopefully I can make a difference while I'm still down here. 601 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,279 Speaker 1: In this episode of A Live Again, Jonas recounts his 602 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:42,840 Speaker 1: extraordinary awakening, the challenges of integrating mystical experiences into everyday life, 603 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 1: and why storytelling remains his truest path to healing and connection. 604 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 1: Our story producers are Dan Bush, Kate Sweeney, Brent Die, 605 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 1: Nicholas Duakowski, and Lauren Vogelbaum. Music by Ben Lovett, additional 606 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:02,320 Speaker 1: music by Alexander rodrig As. Our executive producers are Matthew 607 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 1: Frederick and Trevor Young. Special thanks to Alexander Williams for 608 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:09,440 Speaker 1: additional production support. Our studio engineers are Rima L. K 609 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:14,160 Speaker 1: Ali and Noames Griffin. Our editors are Dan Bush, Gerhartslovitchka, 610 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,759 Speaker 1: Brent Die and Alexander Rodriguez. Mixing by Ben Lovett and 611 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 1: Alexander Rodriguez. I'm your host, Dan Bush. Alive Again is 612 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,759 Speaker 1: a production of I Art Radio and Psychopia Pictures. If 613 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,799 Speaker 1: you have a transformative near death experience to share, we'd 614 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,440 Speaker 1: love to hear your story. Please email us at Alive 615 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:39,520 Speaker 1: Again Project at gmail dot com. That's a l I 616 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 1: v e A g A I N p R O 617 00:36:43,200 --> 00:37:00,800 Speaker 1: j E c T at gmail dot com.