WEBVTT - What’s Driving Public Bad Behavior? 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:05.319 Really now, really. 0:00:07.280 --> 0:00:12.240 Really hello, and welcome to really no really, with day's 0:00:12.320 --> 0:00:14.800 Alexander and Peter Tilden, who propt for the idea that 0:00:14.840 --> 0:00:17.560 if everyone subscribed to our show, the whole world might 0:00:17.600 --> 0:00:21.560 suddenly get along. Sadly, some of you haven't subscribed, and 0:00:21.800 --> 0:00:24.720 arguably even sadder the world seems like a place where 0:00:24.720 --> 0:00:27.520 it's harder and harder to get along. People seem to 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:31.680 be behaving horribly. We're seeing tirades in supermarkets, live performers 0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:36.120 being pelted with projectiles, drunken moviegoers getting into brawls and 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:40.120 tantrums on airplanes that results in fistfights and arrests, and 0:00:40.200 --> 0:00:43.680 it seems to be getting worse. Really no, really, So 0:00:43.920 --> 0:00:46.839 Jason and Peter have called upon an expert in human behavior, 0:00:46.920 --> 0:00:52.360 doctor Ryan Sultan, Assistant Professor of Clinical Psychiatry at Columbia University, 0:00:52.560 --> 0:00:55.520 to help explain our growing inability to get along. 0:00:55.840 --> 0:00:58.800 So here they are, and please try to behave. 0:01:00.800 --> 0:01:02.200 R. We can hear you, know, we can hear you, 0:01:02.320 --> 0:01:06.720 but we're ready to start. We're ready. We're ready as 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:10.360 soon as we can't hear you now or maybe here's 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:11.760 the thought close to do now. 0:01:11.800 --> 0:01:14.800 You're acting out, you're acting out. Is this the kind 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:15.760 of behavior you would. 0:01:15.560 --> 0:01:18.840 Display in a public area you have no displayed and 0:01:18.959 --> 0:01:22.200 a kind of behavior in a public forum you are 0:01:22.600 --> 0:01:27.120 abusive to the to the person yelling, rolling. So so 0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:35.759 our test today, yes, is about the epidemic of people 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:36.880 behaving badly. 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:40.119 A couple examples on Broadway, a sub theater. Yeah, somebody 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:42.120 took a dump in the in the island. The lights 0:01:42.160 --> 0:01:43.640 came up and the Clinton's were there. 0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:45.800 Actually, I got to tell you there's not a lot 0:01:45.840 --> 0:01:47.720 of restaurant facilities in his own hipps. 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:50.000 I can kind of understand what I love. 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:52.000 Though, is the part of this that made me laugh. 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:54.080 As they interviewed the house manager later, saying how could 0:01:54.080 --> 0:01:55.360 this happen? He said, this is the fourth thought. 0:01:55.520 --> 0:01:58.000 Yeah, that's the part of it that there's a serial 0:01:58.080 --> 0:01:59.760 defecator on Broadway. 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:02.200 He has to be stopped or she or she has 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:04.760 to be stopped. There's got to be an underlying pause 0:02:05.080 --> 0:02:07.320 pausing all this outrage, and we have some thoughts about that, 0:02:07.360 --> 0:02:09.280 but we have an expert coming on, Brian. 0:02:09.360 --> 0:02:12.480 My mother would have said, not raised well, not raised well, 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:14.680 That's what my mother would have said. 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:18.519 Mother, simplist, simplist, Yeah, she she liked to cut through 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:22.040 because a lot of noise, a lot of the getty. Yeah, 0:02:22.160 --> 0:02:24.040 maybe a generational thing. We'll find out a bit, but 0:02:24.080 --> 0:02:26.160 I wanted to give you since you're used to Broadway 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:28.520 in theater. I am going to open with some examples 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:30.120 before we get our expert out here. 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:32.800 This is the examples of of of. 0:02:32.440 --> 0:02:35.760 Of performers calling out the audience members. It got so bad, 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:39.000 so you know this this person feeling. My friend Patty 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:41.399 Lapone did it a couple times. Number one. Not only 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:43.520 did she yell at at an audience member who was 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:47.880 wearing a mask in correctly going COVID, she said, she 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:50.720 said something like we may have to bleep it, something 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:53.440 like put them pull the mask up, and then the 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:56.600 VIDEOSO member shots back, I pay your salary, to which 0:02:56.720 --> 0:03:00.480 she res responded, both Chris Harper pays myself. He's the 0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:02.560 guy who does the show, so pull up the FN mask. 0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:05.000 She also grabbed somebody's self and went out and grabbed 0:03:05.040 --> 0:03:07.680 somebody's cell phone, returned it after the show, so she 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:12.160 doesn't suffer for Gladly she did return it. Lin Manuel 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:16.840 Miranda stopped Madonna from coming backstage after the show because 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:19.280 she was using her phone, apparently doing a performance. 0:03:21.720 --> 0:03:24.280 Lin Manuel Miranda was performing. 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:27.360 Madonnas in the attended a performance and supportedly called herself 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:29.679 out by Miranda in the now deleted tweet that said 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:31.760 he refused to allow her backstage to meet the cast 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:35.080 after due to her. Babe Kanye Kanye West was called 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:37.560 out for using his cell phone during the opening musical 0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:43.280 The Share Show. I refuse to believe that Kanye. During 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:47.160 the Wrong Man twenty eighteen performance, Joshua Henry reportedly left 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:49.640 the stage mid performance to grab the phone of an 0:03:49.640 --> 0:03:52.560 audience member was texting him. Proceeded to throw the phone 0:03:52.960 --> 0:03:54.240 under the risers during this. 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:56.880 Let me tell you some Joshua Henry is not a 0:03:56.920 --> 0:04:00.320 small man. He's a big, really big talented man, and 0:04:00.360 --> 0:04:02.440 he is in good shape. 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:05.120 So and the interesting thing though, I wanted to go 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:08.760 back and look at history. Do you know that there 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:11.760 was a performance that was met with catballs and hisses 0:04:13.080 --> 0:04:17.520 and people ran on the stage to actually protest this performance. 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:23.040 You know what it was cats a pro coffee of 0:04:23.120 --> 0:04:27.760 piano concerto in nineteen thirteen. So audience behavior apparently goes 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:29.760 way way back, and they're very vocal. 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:32.240 Do you remember what they used to do at the 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:34.120 Globe Theater back in Shakespeare's day. 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:37.039 They used to yell, yell, they would throw, they threw. 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:40.400 That's where that trope of throwing rotten tomatoes, and that's 0:04:40.400 --> 0:04:43.400 where rotten tomatoes come from, people throwing. 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:45.080 Bad So then we went through a period of that, 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:46.640 and then we went through a paier to being more 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:49.000 civil and people got the etiquette and how to perform 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:51.719 in public, and now we're back in a worse way. 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:53.760 I have some thoughts about that. I have some thoughts. 0:04:53.960 --> 0:04:56.320 You want initial thoughts before we bring on our guest. Yeah. Yes, 0:04:58.120 --> 0:05:01.240 you can see it during COVID, where people we were 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:04.000 so divided, especially on the mask thing and the vaxxed thing, 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:07.200 that people got into fights with people who weren't wearing masks, 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:09.680 and people were getting to fights with people who were 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:12.560 wearing masks because you're not agreeing with what I believe 0:05:12.680 --> 0:05:15.320 as far as the vaccination is concerned. So and then, 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:18.800 of course divisiveness and behavior has gotten worse. 0:05:18.880 --> 0:05:21.480 See I will play off the divisiveness. 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:25.240 One of the things that's always struck me is in 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:28.560 some of these cases, not all by any stretch, but 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:31.280 in some of these cases people get rankled because somebody, 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:35.120 in their estimation, is getting away with something. It's doing 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:39.760 something they can't. And I think that there is again 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:44.120 that divide of the have the have not, or the 0:05:44.320 --> 0:05:48.160 entitled the unentitled, whatever it may be, where people are 0:05:48.279 --> 0:05:51.600 more sensitive to I'm not going to take it anymore. 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:54.240 It's literally network, I'm mad as hell, and I'm not 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:58.160 going to take it anymore. You're doing something doesn't directly 0:05:58.200 --> 0:06:00.000 affect me, but I don't like that you're doing it, 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:01.839 and so I'm gonna. 0:06:01.640 --> 0:06:05.200 Well, I'll see you and I'll raise you. We see 0:06:05.240 --> 0:06:08.120 all over the internet people filming the anger stuff, so 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:11.840 we now have behavior you can model that other people 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:13.919 are doing it, and I think some people possibly are 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:15.839 doing it intentionally. Well, that's going to. 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:18.240 Be an interesting question, I guess, because that's one of 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:24.400 my big questions. Is you know, you can become famous 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:28.479 or notorious by being filmed at your worst moment. And 0:06:28.640 --> 0:06:30.839 some people have paid a price for it, others have not. 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:34.479 And I wonder how many people are going I don't care. 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:35.880 At least everybody's. 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:39.599 Talking about on that note, let's yeah, let's let's find 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:42.600 out when an expert has sate so joining us now 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:47.160 is doctor Bryan Sultan, Assistant Professor of Clinical Psychiatry in 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:51.680 the Department of Psychiatry at Columbia University School. I know 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:57.599 you go to schools and the Irving Medical Center in 0:06:57.600 --> 0:07:00.839 New York State Psychiatric Institute is an expert in the 0:07:00.880 --> 0:07:03.680 area's a d h D and cannabis use. But I 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:06.760 read a bunch of stuff that you said, we'll say, welcome, 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:09.120 welcome there you go, welcome to this. Why do you 0:07:09.120 --> 0:07:10.920 always have to hit me? Why is it? Can you 0:07:10.960 --> 0:07:13.840 answer that question? Why he gets physical? Why does he 0:07:13.880 --> 0:07:14.840 go to physical right away? 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:17.520 I mean, he's he's trying, he's got a feeling, he's 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:20.560 trying to express it. It's coming out. I mean, are 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:22.640 we going to interpret it in a positive way? Are 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:25.880 we going to choose to interpret it? How are we. 0:07:25.840 --> 0:07:32.480 Going to how are we going to feel it? 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:34.960 I know what you were trying to do. 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:38.559 Well. I saw a lot of stuff you talked about 0:07:38.560 --> 0:07:42.320 about the personality of audience personalities and why they're getting 0:07:42.400 --> 0:07:45.000 worse and what the cause of that is. And we 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:49.160 had we theorized that maybe the COVID thing, the mask thing, 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:51.840 was very divisive. That was a new thing. It was 0:07:51.960 --> 0:07:55.560 very divisive, but also that societally right now, what we 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:58.720 see is this behavior, and there's modeling. The question is 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:01.480 have we forgotten as a society? Can you forget that quickly? 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:03.280 How to put I have gotten? As my mother would say, 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:04.160 how to behave? 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:08.720 You know, this is definitely a complex issue, and it 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:12.240 pulls in a lot of different disciplines and it's got 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:14.160 a number of things coming into it. And I think 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:17.520 you're right that lockdown in the pandemic is certainly like 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:21.720 the most acute and directly related thing, you know, when 0:08:21.720 --> 0:08:25.760 we think about the fact that your social skills got rusty. 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:30.720 And for people, lockdown varied in both intensity and duration. 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:34.200 So for some people this is going to be more substantial. 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:36.280 I mean, there are patients in my practice that I 0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:40.080 saw before the pandemic and I'm still seeing them now 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:44.240 that have never come in again for an appointment, and 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:47.040 they continue to stay virtual and they are are still 0:08:47.040 --> 0:08:48.360 overwhelmingly at home a lot. 0:08:48.400 --> 0:08:52.000 And this is this is today. So people's variation there was. 0:08:52.480 --> 0:08:54.920 I'm sorry to interrupt. Do you see children in your 0:08:54.960 --> 0:08:55.600 practice at all? 0:08:55.880 --> 0:09:00.240 I have to imagine that that to your interruption in 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:07.439 what would be their normal socialization pattern or learning is 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:11.480 and will continue to be a really disruptive source. Is 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:16.280 there just a generation of kids that are socially behind 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:19.280 the curve at this point? Yeah, So when we think 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:23.040 about that, it's important. I always talk about with parents. 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:27.560 School is obviously about learning knowledge, Like I mean, I'm 0:09:27.600 --> 0:09:30.840 like super nerdy, I've gone and become a researcher and 0:09:30.880 --> 0:09:32.760 I did an MD, like I love school. I want 0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:35.600 to learn things. But schools also about your development. You're 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:39.520 development socially, you're development emotionally. How do you tolerate things 0:09:39.520 --> 0:09:42.480 that are uncomfortable for you? How do you navigate difficult 0:09:42.520 --> 0:09:49.160 situations successfully? And because our switch to virtual school was 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:53.920 done so rapidly, teachers and parents and even kids, you know, 0:09:53.920 --> 0:09:56.360 I think universally found it to be sort of not 0:09:56.480 --> 0:09:59.600 a great substitute for most individuals. And I think the 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:02.320 most obvious thing that it's missing out on is this 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:05.720 social emotional development, this stuff that that really was happening 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:09.480 spontaneously in real life, interacting with one another in a 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:12.800 classroom setting, and and and it was hard to replicate 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:16.240 uh uh, you know through a remote a remote setup. 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:19.760 Are you are you concerned about where how will those 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:20.679 kids catch up? 0:10:20.760 --> 0:10:21.839 Or will they catch up. 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:25.000 I think it's reasonable to think that they're going to 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:27.640 catch up or that they could catch up. We do 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:30.520 think about neuroplasticity, which is the idea of like your 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:33.280 brain and and and how pliable it is in learning 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:36.160 new things. And we think about windows of time where 0:10:36.160 --> 0:10:38.760 you're better learning things, which is why like the younger 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:41.760 you are, typically the easier is to learn another language, right, 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:44.400 uh so, so like there's a little bit of that 0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:46.880 that's that's working against us. But in general, these things 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:50.319 can be uh learned in sort of a delayed way. 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:53.600 And if you if you talk to to undergrad faculty, 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:55.120 a lot of them will say that the last couple 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:57.400 of years, they feel like the incoming freshmen have felt 0:10:57.920 --> 0:11:01.120 a little more fragile than than they were in the past, 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:06.520 and and a little younger that those kids seem to 0:11:06.520 --> 0:11:10.439 be coming added maybe a couple of years younger than 0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:11.520 what it felt like before. 0:11:12.000 --> 0:11:13.840 The other thing is a lot of this bad behavior 0:11:13.840 --> 0:11:15.240 in these groups. When you get together with a big 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:17.480 group like that, it's a rare time when you have 0:11:17.480 --> 0:11:21.000 different socio economic groups in there, a different race, coll 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:24.720 of religion, creators. It's not often that that happen, and 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:27.280 that behavior seems to be getting worse and worse. More 0:11:27.440 --> 0:11:31.240 incidents happen when that happens. Do you think that is 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:35.800 a partially because of COVID, but be because we're so 0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:38.160 divided and we don't yet we always stay with our 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:40.080 own group. Does that make sense? Yeah? 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:41.760 Yeah, so I think I think that. 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:43.760 That there's a way that this even interacts with another 0:11:43.960 --> 0:11:47.439 thing that we haven't touched on yet, which is smartphones 0:11:47.480 --> 0:11:52.880 and social media. And so social media creates these micro 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:58.079 realities that we're all living in, right, these curated worlds. 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:00.960 When I opened my Apple News, so like what I 0:12:01.040 --> 0:12:04.080 get is very specific. When I look at my my 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:07.360 Facebook or my Instagram feed, it's very specific to me. 0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:10.280 And and and so I think that that that is 0:12:10.320 --> 0:12:13.120 another way that we are sort of staying in a 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:16.600 small group. Then is our that is that community, but 0:12:17.080 --> 0:12:18.800 interacting with other communities? 0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:20.440 Right? You know? 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:22.079 I I have a friend of mine that loves to 0:12:22.120 --> 0:12:24.920 talk about the idea that like the reality of like 0:12:24.960 --> 0:12:28.160 what is going on in the world appears to be 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:31.280 different to different people, which. 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:33.480 Is which is by the way, really scary. How do 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:36.199 you navigate that? And it's dividing, so it's dividing us 0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:39.600 more and more and more because we don't forget shared experience, 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:41.200 concert experience, we don't even share info. 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:43.760 So I mean, I think this is a huge problem 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:46.880 that we have to be thinking about on a societal level. 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:51.839 The your social media, the devices that we use, they 0:12:51.880 --> 0:12:55.480 were they were thoughtfully constructed on how to keep us engaged, 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:58.520 right so the purpose of like marketing and things like that. 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:02.320 But in doing so, they sort of created this back 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:05.800 door into our mind that tends to bypass a lot 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:07.880 of critical thinking that we have, which is one of 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:10.319 the things that I always find like disturbing about it. 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:13.720 And I periodically will like delete one of these programs 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:17.679 and take a hiatus from it, and I'll even feel 0:13:19.080 --> 0:13:22.960 something that is kind of like a withdrawal. There's a 0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:25.959 real connection, there's a real connection to that thing, and 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:28.520 it plays with our mind. 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:31.960 So if I. 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:34.560 See negative behavior on there, getting back to the original conversation, 0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:39.640 I'm more likely to replicate that because it's actually contagious. 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:44.200 The negative behavior that we might see. The algorithm is 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:46.439 more than likely going to favor that, right because it's 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:49.040 going to get a lot more attention. So now you're 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:52.640 even more likely to see it. So it's it's proliferating 0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:56.080 throughout this system. But it's a consequence of the way 0:13:56.080 --> 0:13:56.679 this is said up. 0:13:56.679 --> 0:13:58.599 As you're saying that if Jason and I see or 0:13:58.640 --> 0:13:59.880 you send me an our question and you're in our 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:03.080 that somebody went crazy on a flight, now the algorithm 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:05.439 is pushing me more of that stuff. And I'm thinking 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:08.600 that all of society, this is happening all over every day, 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:10.920 and it's much bigger than it is or not act. 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:16.880 But I also don't understand why the algorithm doesn't feed 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:20.560 us the things that are gonna make us happier as 0:14:20.600 --> 0:14:23.240 opposed to the things that they know are probably going 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:26.480 to agitate us to the extent that the algorithm can discern, 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:27.680 which is which for any. 0:14:28.040 --> 0:14:32.120 Anger appears to be much. They used to say about 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:34.880 the Howard Stern Show, people that like Howard listen for 0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:36.640 an hour and twenty minute, people hate him listen for 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:39.560 an hour forty minutes, And that probably applies. So if 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:41.840 they can stimulate you that way and they find out boy, 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:44.400 that works, they're gonna keep hitting that count of product 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:45.400 to stimulate it that way. 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:46.360 Correct one hundred percent. 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:48.200 I mean, that's something that you're going to get pulled 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:50.960 much more into We appear to be a little pre 0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:54.280 programmed our minds to respond in that way. 0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:56.480 I think about these like as blind. 0:14:56.120 --> 0:14:59.400 Spots that we have as a species that we need 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:03.640 to be thinking about when we develop new technology and 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:07.160 how it can affect us. And you know, the other 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:09.240 thing that comes to mind we think about social media, 0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:11.440 for me is is this idea of like, how is 0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:14.880 it affecting our mental health? There is so much data 0:15:15.400 --> 0:15:19.720 that keeps supporting this idea that it's linked to depression 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:24.400 and anxiety and suicidal thoughts. There's a number of ways 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:27.480 it could be doing that, but but for me, one 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:30.320 of them is that it being on your phone all 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:35.160 the time is not interacting with people in real life, 0:15:35.240 --> 0:15:39.760 and it tends to be less substantial interpersonal relationships, and 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:43.360 we all need interpersonal relationships. That is, that is one 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:46.880 of the most restorative thing we have. And you know, 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:49.680 it's the basis for building out like a larger community, 0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:51.320 which again we're social creatures. 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:53.200 That's that's what matters to us. 0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:56.040 Didn't you didn't you write I think it was you 0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:58.080 who said it used to be way back that we 0:15:58.120 --> 0:16:01.600 had about one hundred person one hundred people in our sphere, 0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:05.360 and that was our network, that was our morality, that 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:09.720 was our modeling, that was our mentorship. So that group 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:13.600 constantly kept you in check because you got to advocate 0:16:13.640 --> 0:16:16.360 with the group and understand who they were. They looked 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:18.400 out for you. Today, our group is what how many 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:21.120 people do we think as a community. So kids have 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:24.640 Facebook friends that are like twenty seven hundred Facebook friends 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:27.400 forty thousand Facebook where he tries to build that number out, 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:31.480 So we've lost that sense of community. Correct, it doesn't 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:32.200 exist anymore. 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:36.120 We know from anthropology that that is like what our 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:39.480 mind has been fine tuned to do well with is 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:42.880 that number of relationships. Because you can trust the person, 0:16:43.000 --> 0:16:46.600 you know each other, you feel comfortable you're going to 0:16:46.680 --> 0:16:50.680 manage your own behavior if for no other reason, it 0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:53.840 is actually like detrimental for you to not do it 0:16:53.880 --> 0:16:56.520 in such a small community. If not, hopefully you're doing 0:16:56.560 --> 0:16:59.440 it out of kindness and wanting to sort of be 0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:01.920 be giving to someone else. But there's a built in 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:06.600 system around that that I think is completely diffused and 0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:10.240 diluted in the kind of social network you're describing. 0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:12.520 I want to jump to something. 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:16.919 So we're talking about the reasons why we live in 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:21.399 some agitation, why we're pressed while we're anxietal. But the 0:17:21.440 --> 0:17:23.800 phenomena that we're talking about in this episode is where 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:29.040 people start to act it's just bad behavior. Something has 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:32.119 put them over the top. Is there a common thread 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:36.679 between a guy who flips out on an airplane because 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:39.200 he's been asked to move his seat or a woman 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:41.680 that goes up to a stranger in the park and goes, 0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:43.520 who are you? You don't live in this neighborhood, you 0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:47.439 know what they call the Karen phenomena. Is there a 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:50.679 common thread that runs through these people that tend to 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:54.160 begin to behave badly. 0:17:56.640 --> 0:17:58.639 I was thinking a lot about that leading up to this, 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:01.920 because the exams samples of this bad behavior do vary 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:04.240 a lot, as you just pointed out in that example. 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:07.480 I think they fall into a couple of different categories. 0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:09.320 One of them is. 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:23.239 I was thinking a lot about that leading up to this, 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:26.880 because the examples of this bad behavior do vary a lot, 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:29.480 as you just pointed out in that example. I think 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:32.720 they fall into a couple of different categories. One of 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:36.600 them is, you know, just general. I think the most 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:38.159 just way to think about all this is like acting 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:41.280 out what is the skill that you have available to 0:18:41.320 --> 0:18:45.800 you to manage a situation. So if you're having trouble 0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:51.359 getting your overhead luggage up and you're stressed out and 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:53.960 there are people behind you that want you to move, 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:56.439 and you know, is there enough space and are they 0:18:56.520 --> 0:18:59.159 going to make me put the thing under? That kind 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:02.760 of situation is putting a lot of pressure on someone 0:19:02.800 --> 0:19:04.159 and they may or may not have the skills to 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:06.640 sort of manage it, and they then may act out 0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:09.879 in some way. They may act in an obnoxious or 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:12.399 rude way, or be nasty to someone, to be irritable, 0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:16.720 which is very upsetting to everyone else and is contagious. Unfortunately, 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:19.320 that's sort of one version of something that we might 0:19:20.119 --> 0:19:20.359 that we. 0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:21.280 Might interact with. 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:25.280 I think that there's another version, and I'm not sure 0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:27.040 what exactly to call this. 0:19:27.359 --> 0:19:30.760 It's sort of like a I'm going to. 0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:33.639 Do whatever I want to do regardless of how it 0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:34.879 affects the people around me. 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:38.200 And it feels I've just heard a term Peter, and 0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:42.000 I came across this main character syndrome or something like that. 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:45.600 Yeah, feels a little bit like almost like an extreme 0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:47.240 version of individualism. 0:19:47.400 --> 0:19:50.200 But Ryan, we've been in power good luck twenty five 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:51.960 years ago, calling the company and saying I'm going to 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:54.600 rat you out because I had bad service click forget 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:57.600 it today, I'm going to write a bad review. Oh no, 0:19:57.720 --> 0:19:59.639 and they'll do They'll send you a free product whatever. 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:02.119 All of a sudden, a lot of people feel like VIPs, 0:20:02.160 --> 0:20:04.399 which I guess is part of that mean character syndrome 0:20:04.440 --> 0:20:06.680 where you feel like you have control over every situation. 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:10.240 Prices are higher for stuff, so you feel more entitled. Hey, 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:13.159 this should have been because of COVID. People fired a 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:16.280 lot of people, so customer service is down. We hired 0:20:16.320 --> 0:20:19.119 a lot, companies are purging, so you can't get the 0:20:19.200 --> 0:20:21.720 kind of service you did before. And then the behavior 0:20:21.760 --> 0:20:25.840 you're seeing from politicians, from sports celebrities, from people who 0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:28.520 are angry and do this stuff gets not only not punished, 0:20:28.880 --> 0:20:32.760 but rewarded. Why wouldn't I model that behavior if everything's 0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:35.200 built around me to complain to yelp? 0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:37.680 But building off of what you just said, there's also 0:20:38.000 --> 0:20:44.920 a certain kind of learned narcissism because of the exalted 0:20:44.960 --> 0:20:48.600 ways that people are seeing celebrities treated, So they. 0:20:48.440 --> 0:20:51.560 Go why them, why not me? And they're right by 0:20:51.560 --> 0:20:52.640