WEBVTT - Why a Big Gender-Pay Gap Exists for Selling Clothes 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:03.240 There's a well known gap between men and women when 0:00:03.279 --> 0:00:06.120 it comes to how much people get paid. But here's 0:00:06.160 --> 0:00:10.240 a statistic that's really eye opening. Workers at men's clothing 0:00:10.280 --> 0:00:14.360 stores earned fifty six percent more than employees at retailers 0:00:14.360 --> 0:00:17.560 of women's wear. It's a huge gap and seems troubling 0:00:17.600 --> 0:00:20.080 on the surface, but much of it can be chalked 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:24.160 up to that classic phrase in economics, supply and demand. 0:00:33.479 --> 0:00:37.360 Welcome to Benchmark. I'm Scott Landman, economics editor with Bloomberg 0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:40.840 News in Washington, and now I'm Daniel Moss, economics writer 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:44.839 and editor at Bloomberg View in New York. So, Dan, 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:47.080 let's talk a little bit about something that we don't 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:49.920 cover too much on this show. Can you tell me 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:52.519 how you normally shop for clothes? Do you do you 0:00:52.560 --> 0:00:54.680 go to the big department stores or do you frequent 0:00:54.760 --> 0:00:57.400 some of those boutiques that are springing up all over 0:00:57.440 --> 0:01:01.880 your Brooklyn neighborhood. Well, in our idiot neighborhood, it's mainly 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:06.199 bars and restaurants, so not a lot of clothes shopping there. 0:01:06.840 --> 0:01:09.720 I did buy something the weekend before last, but I 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:13.320 used a gift card that I was given for Christmas. 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:16.360 As for me. I don't really shop at stores that 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:19.160 cater just two men specifically, I probably go to places 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:22.520 that sell to both men and women. But we're gonna 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:26.520 talk today about stores that are catering more to high 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:31.240 end customers and why that's driving this wage gap that 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:33.880 I was talking about at the top. So let's bring 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:37.160 in two colleagues who will be our guests today. Katya 0:01:37.280 --> 0:01:41.039 Dmitrieva is a reporter in our Washington bureau covering the 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:44.840 US economy who recently transferred here from Canada. It's actually 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:47.840 her second time on the podcast. Last time she was 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:51.640 in Toronto talking about the crazy real estate market there. Katia, 0:01:51.680 --> 0:01:54.560 thanks for joining us, glad to be here. And our 0:01:54.640 --> 0:01:57.360 other guest is Lindsay Rupp. She's a reporter in our 0:01:57.400 --> 0:02:01.400 New York office covering retail, and she also recently concluded 0:02:01.400 --> 0:02:04.919 a run as co host of Bloomberg's Material World podcast. 0:02:05.320 --> 0:02:07.480 You can listen to all of those episodes wherever you 0:02:07.520 --> 0:02:10.280 like to find podcasts. Lindsay, thanks so much for being 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:13.120 with us on Benchmark. Thanks for having me. So I 0:02:13.120 --> 0:02:15.520 wanted to talk a little bit about how we got 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:19.560 this story first. This was pretty simple. We were looking 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:22.880 at wage data that the Labor Department provides and put 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:25.880 it into all into a spreadsheet, sorted it by industry, 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:29.120 and something really funny came up. I noticed that men's 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:33.360 clothing stores were showing huge increases in wages and the 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:37.800 wages that women's clothing stores were actually declining. So I 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:39.799 went to Katya and I said, why don't we write 0:02:39.800 --> 0:02:42.800 an article about this? Could you look into it? So Catchia, 0:02:42.840 --> 0:02:45.720 tell us a little bit about what you found out. Yeah, 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:48.560 and I remember you bringing that up in the newsroom, 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:51.960 and I think the reaction was all very shocked, because 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:54.400 you would think that at least in this industry that's 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:57.320 been so traditionally catered to women, you would have that 0:02:57.600 --> 0:03:01.160 potentially be reversed. But instead, what I found is that 0:03:01.200 --> 0:03:04.320 if you work at a men's clothing store, especially right now, 0:03:04.440 --> 0:03:08.040 you're likely to be paid a lot more than women's stores. 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:10.799 And some of it is related to the gender wage gap. 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:13.960 You see this all across industries in North America, but 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:17.919 it doesn't really explain in particular, like you said, this 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:22.320 huge difference that's happened, especially in the last two years. 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:27.239 So I started to call economists as well as Heidi Hartman, 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:32.200 who specializes in labor economics, and we talked about this 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:37.360 issue and when I mentioned supply and demand as affecting 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:40.960 this market, what can you tell us about that? Well, 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:44.000 the reality is that there's just a smaller pool of 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:48.640 men's clothing store workers. There's a smaller pool of men 0:03:48.720 --> 0:03:50.920 to choose from to work in these clothing stores. And 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:53.120 especially at a time when the labor market is so 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:56.920 tight already and you're dealing with this smaller pool of workers, 0:03:57.440 --> 0:03:59.600 you have to pay up in order to get them. 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:02.360 As you said, supplying demand. So if you want to 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:06.720 get those highly skilled workers for these stores like Hugh 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:10.360 and Cry where I went in Georgetown in Washington, then 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:13.240 you're going to have to pay them more. And not 0:04:13.360 --> 0:04:17.320 only are is the demand for these workers higher or 0:04:17.320 --> 0:04:20.000 there's a smaller pool of them, but the sales at 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:24.400 men's stores are rising and women's where retailers are kind 0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:26.520 of struggling. Lindsey, could you tell us a little bit 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:30.080 about that. Yeah, absolutely, So. One thing I've been hearing 0:04:30.120 --> 0:04:32.840 a lot in the industry lately is that men are 0:04:32.880 --> 0:04:35.640 the new women all the sudden. Men care a little 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:37.840 bit more about how they look, and that's showing up 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:40.800 in beauty it's showing up in apparel, and that's not 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:44.599 all men, but men of a certain wealth level in particular. 0:04:45.120 --> 0:04:47.560 So that kind of explains a little bit why their 0:04:47.680 --> 0:04:51.200 sales might be rising at a faster rate. But keep 0:04:51.200 --> 0:04:54.200 in mind there's still not a huge portion of the 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:57.720 overall retail sales. Women still do the bulk of the purchasing, 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:00.200 they do the bulk of the spending. They're also just 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:03.719 a lot more women's apparel stores. I mean, apparel retail 0:05:03.839 --> 0:05:07.560 right now is going through this existential crisis. I mean 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:11.240 it's in total upheaval. In a lot of places, there 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:13.640 are too many stores, so everybody's trying to figure out, 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:15.960 how can I have the right number of stores in 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:20.159 the right locations. They're trying to grapple with online retailers 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:23.000 who are springing up almost out of nowhere, have very 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:25.960 low barriers to entry, and even if they only sell 0:05:26.440 --> 0:05:29.440 a couple hundred thousand dollars worth of goods, they're still 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:32.720 taking away incremental business from these bigger guys. So it's 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:35.360 a tough time. And just to be clear what we're 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:40.120 talking about here, are we talking about two employees same store, 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:44.640 one male, one female. The female gets less or are 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:49.560 we saying that stores that kate predominantly to men pay 0:05:49.640 --> 0:05:53.880 more than stores that kater predominantly to women. It's stores 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:58.440 that cater predominantly to men or women. But at these stores, 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:02.160 what I was told is they're more likely to employ 0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:05.640 people of the same sex. So if it's a men's 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:08.440 clothing store, they're more likely to hire more men. If 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:12.120 it's a women's clothing store, more likely to have more women. 0:06:12.800 --> 0:06:14.960 And can you tell us a little bit catya about 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:17.640 the store you're mentioning. It's called Hugh and Cry and 0:06:17.680 --> 0:06:21.560 it's in DC, and it's kind of a microcosm maybe 0:06:21.560 --> 0:06:25.080 of what's happening in this market right now. Yeah, it 0:06:25.160 --> 0:06:28.880 was very interesting because you are on this main drag 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:32.480 Wisconsin Avenue, and it's full of retail shops and a 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:35.840 lot of them are of women's specific retail. And then 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:38.640 you kind of turn this side street and then down 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:42.040 a bricklined alleyway, narrow alleyway, you come to the end 0:06:42.040 --> 0:06:44.840 to this door. It's almost like a secret club, and 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:48.320 here is Human Cry. It's a men's boutique and it's 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:53.120 outfitted in a very mid century modern furniture, lots of 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:57.160 hanging art on the wall and you go around. If 0:06:57.200 --> 0:06:59.920 you're shopping there, you just pick items off the shelf, 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:02.640 can try on in the store. You can also order 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:04.320 it online if they don't have it, and get it 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:07.120 delivered to your door or in the store. And it's 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:11.680 very specific to the client. It's not your traditional you 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:14.880 walk into a retailer and you know, hey, how's it going. 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:16.720 Can help you find anything? Can I tell you about 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:18.920 all the discounts we have in the store. It's more like, 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:20.880 you come in, do you want me to get you 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:23.520 anything to drink? Um? What are you looking for? They 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:25.680 can tell what your size is by looking at you. 0:07:26.200 --> 0:07:28.760 And then they have some clients who come in the 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:31.800 day of their wedding and they're looking for a white shirt, 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:34.280 or if they're working on the hill and they happen 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:36.680 to spill some coffee, they can get a shirt within 0:07:36.720 --> 0:07:40.000 the next couple of hours. So it's it's definitely what's 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:42.840 happening across the board this trend. Let me take a 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:46.120 step back, you know, Lindsay, for a couple of years, 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:50.040 I've been hearing in news meetings and hearing on TV 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:54.240 that retail is dying, the death of them all, the 0:07:54.360 --> 0:07:58.040 death of retailing. So if this is going out, why 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:01.320 does it really matter anyway. I don't think retail is 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:03.840 ever going to go away. I think the death of 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:08.320 retail has been largely overstated. It's definitely changing and a 0:08:08.320 --> 0:08:11.520 lot of retailers will die. Um. Don't get me wrong. 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:14.360 We've seen a record number of bankruptcies and we're probably 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:17.040 going to continue to see a lot of bankruptcies in 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:20.000 retail in the next two to five years. Everyone seems 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:21.520 to be on the same page about that. A lot 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:23.200 of malls are going to go away. We have too 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:26.120 many malls and too many stores, and that's a difficult 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:29.119 business to correct when you're this far down the line. 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:31.480 It's also really easy to get into this business, so 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:35.400 there's more competition than ever before. But that said, people 0:08:35.400 --> 0:08:37.880 are still buying things. They want to buy things. They're 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:41.200 just buying things differently, or they're spending less money on 0:08:41.240 --> 0:08:45.040 apparel and more money on things like technology, eating out, 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:49.360 going on a cool vacation. As purchases migrate to the web, 0:08:50.760 --> 0:08:54.839 isn't gender disparity in wages going to go away? I mean, 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:57.640 if you're doing this from your computer or your tablet 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:00.520 or your phone, you don't know who the person at 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:04.080 the other end is. It could be anyone anywhere. Why 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:07.000 does it matter? Or it could get worse if more 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:10.720 men are working at online sites and they're the ones 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:13.600 making more money. Could that happen to right? But if 0:09:13.640 --> 0:09:17.160 you're talking about someone who's behind a click at a site, 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:21.680 then the employee is not necessarily going to care whether 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:24.520 they hire a man or a woman, are they? It 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:27.040 depends on the job probably. I mean a lot of 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:31.000 these web retailers they don't necessarily even own any inventory. 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:33.840 They might have some designers, some web folks, and then they, 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:36.760 you know, contract out to people in China or Asia 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:39.040 who make the goods, and they contract out to people 0:09:39.080 --> 0:09:41.640 to ship the goods. They contract out to a distribution 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:45.000 center and a warehouse. So who knows who that retailer 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:49.160 actually employs directly. Um. You know, warehouse and shipping jobs 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:51.880 do tend to be male dominated. Right now. The retail 0:09:51.960 --> 0:09:55.319 industry is a heavily female industry. The bulk of people 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:59.439 who work in retail are women, often women of color. Um, 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:02.920 So we are going to see that job change as 0:10:03.000 --> 0:10:06.559 the retail landscape of America changes, that's for sure. Well, 0:10:06.600 --> 0:10:08.920 for a store that Kate is too main. Why does 0:10:08.960 --> 0:10:11.920 it matter to a man whether the person serving them 0:10:11.920 --> 0:10:14.360 in the store is a man or a woman. I mean, 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:17.200 you just said most of the workers are female. What 0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:21.000 why is that a lot of stores sell women's goods. 0:10:21.960 --> 0:10:24.760 Retail has always been seen as sort of a women's 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:28.480 dominated industry, you know, and that it's a lot of 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:31.920 women who shop. Women make up something like of the 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:36.240 purchasing decisions and actual execution. And it's also seen as 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:41.319 you know, sort of low skill work. It's highly interpersonal work. 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:45.680 So it's been a largely female industry for a long time. 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:48.079 I don't necessarily know that a man would walk into 0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:50.520 a men's boutique and say, oh, I don't want to 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:54.040 shop here because only women are associates. I don't know 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:57.160 that it's even that overt. I think you want to 0:10:57.160 --> 0:11:00.040 talk to someone who you feel has a connection to 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:03.320 what you're buying, can understand, can give you a personal advice, 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:06.800 can say, you know, I wear this size jacket and 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:09.240 it's a little short in the risks, and he's going 0:11:09.280 --> 0:11:11.120 to know exactly what that means. It's not that a 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:14.040 woman couldn't do that job, but like tends to look 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:17.480 for like and if you're a men's retailer catering two men, 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:21.600 you might hire more men. That's exactly what James Majuski 0:11:21.760 --> 0:11:24.680 from Human Christ said as well. He said there employees 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:27.560 tend to be like mannequins for their clothing. So when 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:30.840 guys come in, they look at the person in front 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:32.960 of them and they might say, Hey, that's a nice jacket. 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:35.920 Where did you get that? Oh, your own store? Can 0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:39.800 you show me? Can I try it on? All right, 0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:43.240 let's turn to the national implications of this story that 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:46.120 we've been talking about. We write a lot about the 0:11:46.200 --> 0:11:50.440 national labor market about wages here at Bloomberg, and one 0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:53.960 story we've been covering pretty closely is that wage growth 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:57.640 for workers on a whole has been fairly weak during 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:01.520 this recovery, at least at the late stage. With the 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:04.559 unemployment rate just over four percent, which is the lowest 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:07.839 level since two thousand. Some people think that wages should 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:11.520 be rising at a faster clip, and yet this men's 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:14.560 clothing market seems to show that if sales are rising 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:18.320 and you have a relatively small labor pool, then wages 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:21.720 can actually pick up at a fairly rapid clip. Cat 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:25.680 What did people tell you about whether this means that 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:29.120 wages might pick up more broadly, Well, you're right, it 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:32.160 is showing the same dynamics that we've been seeing and 0:12:32.200 --> 0:12:35.520 hearing about for some time in the US economy. At 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:40.120 a time when you've got this low unemployment rate, why 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:44.400 aren't companies paying more to retain workers or to attract workers? 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:47.960 And here in specifically in men's clothing, we're seeing that 0:12:48.040 --> 0:12:51.600 playing out. So the question is when are we going 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:55.239 to see that in the broader economy in other sectors. 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:59.880 This is perhaps not going to mean an immediate effect. 0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:06.040 This is not like our Bloomberg economist Yelena said on 0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:07.920 the phone to me. She said, you can't draw a 0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:12.760 direct correlation, but there's certainly the same dynamics playing out. 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:16.560 So it does show. It's should provide people with some 0:13:16.640 --> 0:13:20.920 optimism that we can start to see wage growth picking up. Lindsay, 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:25.480 is this something that's unique to clothing retailing in the 0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:28.640 United States or is this part of a worldwide picture 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:32.800 the wage question. I don't know the answer to that. Actually, 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:37.480 the US has a really specific apparel retailing landscape that's 0:13:37.600 --> 0:13:39.400 that's a lot different than it is in Europe or 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:41.840 in Asia. You know, in Asia, people are much more 0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:45.400 comfortable shopping online, and Europe there are a fewer stores generally. 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:49.640 So the US really is in a special situation and 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:53.200 that has too many stores. There's too much supply, and 0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:56.520 I'm sure that that's affected wages accordingly. Um, But you know, 0:13:56.640 --> 0:14:00.520 retailers are raising their wages because as they need to 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:03.080 compete for better talent. I think a lot of times 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:05.800 this is seen as an entry level job. About one 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:09.200 in three people, it's estimated, start their careers in retail. 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:12.840 That's an astounding fact in the US. But you know, 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:16.200 as we close stores and have fewer retail associates, that 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:20.640 is likely to change. How unionized is apparel retailing and 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:24.680 other unions doing anything about this, That's a great question. 0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:28.920 It's not a highly unionized industry. The unions are very 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:32.760 vocal about pay, especially because you know, retail talks about 0:14:32.840 --> 0:14:36.240 how they need to have better experiences and service in 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:40.360 their stores. They need to offer more customization. If you're 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:42.240 actually going to walk into their store, you have to 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:44.840 walk away saying like, Wow, what a great time I 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:47.320 had in that apparel store. But at the same time, 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:50.680 they're not paying people to provide that better service or 0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:53.320 recognizing the skills it takes to do that. Um. So 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:55.800 the unions have been very vocal, but so far not 0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:58.240 very effective because these people are seen as you know, 0:14:58.600 --> 0:15:02.000 disposable or I don't want to give them benefits. I 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:04.560 don't want to provide people with you know, full time 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:07.560 schedules and hours. I don't want to raise wages because 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:12.160 I'm really strapped for cash and there's going to be 0:15:12.200 --> 0:15:14.240 somebody else in line to take that job if this 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:17.960 person leaves. So Lindsay or Caca, is there an opportunity 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:21.320 for women's clothing retail to kind of go down the 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:25.080 road that men's has gone down or are they just 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:29.520 going to basically stay permanently different markets. Well, I think 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:32.320 that there are a lot of apparel retailers that cater 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:35.120 to women who are a lot like human cry who 0:15:35.200 --> 0:15:39.040 you know, are small, they have a specific customer. That 0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:42.800 customer is very loyal, and probably they have higher wages 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:47.240 and strong margins. But I think women's apparel overall, the 0:15:47.320 --> 0:15:50.400 key is to have a compelling product that people want 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:53.720 to pay full price for. Whether you're a Gap or 0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:57.840 Jay Crew or Nemon Marcus. You know, that's the ultimate goal, 0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:00.520 is to have the best product at a price that 0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:03.640 people see as fair. Um, that's part of the reason 0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:05.320 people love t J Max. I mean, when's the last 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:07.080 time he walked into a t J Max and said, 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:10.680 what great customer service I'm having. It's just a very 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:14.120 different value proposition. And it's interesting that you pointed out 0:16:14.520 --> 0:16:17.760 that stores like Human Cry do exist in women's wear. 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:20.800 During the reporting of this story, when I went across 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:24.240 the street from Human Cry to the Loft store, which 0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:26.360 I used as an example, and then right beside it 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:30.360 is made Well and made Well's parent, Jay Crew has 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:33.760 had several consecutive quarters of losses, but made Well is 0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:37.240 doing very well. So you do have examples in women's 0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:40.560 where where you know the growth is continuing and their 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:44.040 employees might actually be compensated for that as well. What's 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:49.000 the industry doing about this absolutely shocking pr they've got here. 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:53.440 It's not just that wages a low, but that there 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:56.880 is this gender disparity which seems like a relic from 0:16:57.120 --> 0:17:01.800 well the mad Men era talking about suits. The industry 0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:04.479 doesn't really seem to have much of a response. I mean, 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:06.760 the people that I reached out for the story didn't 0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:09.360 really have anything to say. I mean, I just don't 0:17:09.359 --> 0:17:13.800 think that the industry is very focused on wages, especially 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:16.000 at a gender level right now. I think they have 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:19.439 more existential issues to focus on in a lot of 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:23.120 cases and staying in business, figuring out how to close stores. 0:17:23.520 --> 0:17:26.120 I mean, I think that they would argue that they 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:30.119 pay competitively and that they have equal opportunity hiring practices. 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:32.720 I think that they would take issue with the data 0:17:32.800 --> 0:17:35.720 at large and say, oh, that's a bigger problem, but 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:38.200 that's not me push you a little bit on that. 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:41.480 I mean, they've hurried in the past to get ahead 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:47.480 of bad pr When ten story sweatshops making T shirts 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:51.640 in the US in Bangladesh have collapsed and not only 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:53.560 have all the people died, but all the dyes have 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:56.840 gone under the river and poison the village water, etcetera, etcetera. 0:17:56.880 --> 0:18:00.560 There's a big organic clothing fair trade clothings going on. 0:18:01.000 --> 0:18:03.480 They didn't have any problem getting ahead of that, or 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:06.600 rather responding quickly, Well, this probably doesn't rise to the 0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:09.560 level of some major scandals yet, Dan, would you say 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:13.240 or lindsay, well, look, I mean you've seen retailers like 0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:15.720 Walmart come out and say, oh, thanks to the US 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:20.199 tax overhaul, we're going to raise our starting minimum wage. 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:22.600 That's great, but I think a lot of people are 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:26.040 doing that because they need to raise wages to be competitive. 0:18:26.080 --> 0:18:29.200 So you've seen retail at large start to raise its wages. 0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:31.200 But retail has been at the bottom of the barrel 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:33.880 and pay for a long time, and they've never been 0:18:33.880 --> 0:18:36.919 penalized for it before. Ultimately, your shopper walks into the 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:39.600 store and cares whether you have the right pair of 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:42.280 jeans at a price that they think is fair, and 0:18:42.320 --> 0:18:43.840 whether or not they have to wait in line for 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:46.280 a long time to get them. They don't think about 0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:48.240 how much the person behind the counter or the person 0:18:48.280 --> 0:18:50.840 who helps him into the fitting room is necessarily making. 0:18:51.280 --> 0:18:54.360 They just want to buy their product. And as callous 0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:56.320 as that sounds, that's what we've seen with fair trade 0:18:56.320 --> 0:19:00.280 apparel to people say, oh, it's horrible about factory collapse ups, 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:02.200 but they still walk into H and M and bio 0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:06.440 four dollar bikini. There's just still a disconnect in our society. 0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:08.800 So what it's really going to take is for us 0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:12.600 to value that service more, to value the jobs that 0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:15.800 these people are doing more as a society, to really 0:19:15.800 --> 0:19:18.960 see the wages rise along with them. All right, Well, 0:19:19.000 --> 0:19:20.600 why don't we come back in a year and see 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:24.720 whether this wage gap has widened even further or if 0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:28.119 Amazon and t J Max have just destroyed everybody in 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:31.359 the meantime, Katia Dmitrieva and Lindsay Ruth, thank you so 0:19:31.440 --> 0:19:34.480 much for joining us today. Thank you, thank you. I 0:19:34.520 --> 0:19:36.640 think we'll have to come back and talk about how 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:40.359 the death of retail was exaggerated. That's the real takeaway 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:47.879 here some recanting from the retail team. Benchmark will be 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:50.080 back next week. Until then, you can find us on 0:19:50.119 --> 0:19:53.320 the Bloomberg terminal, Bloomberg dot com, our Bloomberg app, as 0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:57.920 well as wherever you enjoy podcasts, including Apple podcasts, overcasting, Stitcher. 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:00.520 Please take the time to rate and you the show, 0:20:00.760 --> 0:20:02.840 and you can also find us on Twitter. You can 0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:07.479 follow me at at Scott's Landman. Dan You're at most 0:20:07.720 --> 0:20:12.720 under School, Ko, Katia, You're at Katia d m I. 0:20:13.440 --> 0:20:18.480 And Lindsay your Twitter handle is l c rup. Benchmark 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:21.400 is produced by Toper foreheas the head of Bloomberg Podcast 0:20:21.480 --> 0:20:24.240 is Francesca Levie. Thanks for listening. See you next time.